Author Topic: The Joy Luck Club ~ Amy Tan ~ Book Club Online for July ~ August. Opens July 16  (Read 27568 times)

bellamarie

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 The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.



The Joy Luck Club by Amy Tan

 "Powerful as myth." —The Washington Post Book World

"Beautifully written...a jewel of a book." —The New York Times Book Review

The Joy Luck Club won the National Book Award and the L.A. Times Book Award, and was made into a movie in 1993.



"Powerful...full of magic...you won't be doing anything of importance until you have finished this book." —Los Angeles Times


 Comment on Goodreads:  "I know this is really late, but I think this book would be perfect for a book club. I really wish I was buddy reading this with someone so I could..."



"Wonderful...a significant lesson in what storytelling has to do with memory and inheritance." —San Francisco Chronicle




Tentative Discussion Schedule:



Week II: July 23-29 Chapter 2:    The Twenty-Six Malignant Gates

  Week III: July 30- August 5 Chapter 3: American Translation

  Week IV: August 6-12  Chapter 4: Queen Mother of the Western Skies



Get a leg up this July and August  on the  PBS Great American  Reads voting in October by discussing  one of the candidates: The Joy Luck Club.

Be swept away into a different culture and world,  while at the same time examining how our lives and families are shaped by stories handed down which may or may not be true. 

How well can we  really ever know somebody else, no matter how long we've known them?

Join us for a wonderful trip to a strange culture...or is it?

 







I suspected the book The Twenty-Six Malignant Gates did not exist. I felt the mother made this up to strengthen her admonitions, and to let the child know there are things that can hurt her.  I found this interesting video on You Tube with Amy Tan actually reading this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_zXVMVCX9A

At the end of the video:

The Twenty-Six Malignant Gates

An epigraph is found at the start of some literary works—it can set a tone or mood for the work, hint at coming themes, and/or whet a reader’s appetite.
Amy Tan places epigraphs (or vignettes—or parables) at the start of the four sections of The Joy Luck Club.


What is the meaning?  Children cannot see perils around them?  Mothers are overprotective even about events as ordinary and NECESSARY as falling from a bike?

Does a Chinese book called The Twenty-Six Malignant Gates exist? 
My search on the internet suggest that Amy Tan made it up
Does Amy Tan want us to think the Mom made it?  Interpretive!

Barb
Quote
Just the idea of spitting on something or at someone has little meaning today - we just do not use spitting as a way to express contempt and yet, I do remember as a child this was a typical way many expressed their disrespect as contempt for another.

Hmmm... I'm not so sure I can agree with you on this.  Coming from an Italian family, if you spat at someone it was the lowest form of disrespect and dishonor, and still does. 

Today, if someone spits on you, it can become an actual offense/assault, since we now know spit can contain diseases.  Depending on the state you live in you can be charged for assault.

Just one article I found about spitting being an offense.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-crime-spitting/yes-spitting-in-the-face-is-crime-court-rules-idUSN0727718920070309



“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Ooops some how my name got separated from my post when it went to page 3.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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:) No, you posted in the area of the "heading," so I had to add it over your post. Sorry.

If you like, you can copy and paste it as a new post and I'll erase it from the "heading?"

ginny

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Sorry I'm AWOL, but I'm reading everybody's posts with great excitmenet, what a rich discussion. Absolutely LOVE the Mahjongg tables, Bellamarie, I want one. hahahaa

AND your incredible (really) outline of the 4 daughters and their mothers.

Hats, I have to say, I can't remember when you have ever done a discussion with us and all I can think every time you post is look what we've missed all these years. Don't you  EVER go away again!

:)

I want to address what you've all said. I'm having some eye issues in having do  without one contac lens in preparation for cataract surgery and with my eyes as bad as they are, doing without one contac is...diffy at best, for posting online,  but I'm here,  just not posting constantly.

Everything you've said has sparked more ideas from me, tho, so I want to address them.




ginny

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Oh I did like this, Barbara: hmmm just thought - I wonder if the attachment to their book of divination while house shopping allows the women to have a voice - it eliminates the men from assuming all decision making - they now have an outside power that they can both agree upon to help make the decisions

I hadn't thought about it, actually but superstition itself gives power, doesn't it? I always thought it was the opposite but perhaps  in this book (and I agree, Bellamarie, it seems that the 26 Malignant Gates (I kind of wish they had all been articulated, I am curious as to what they are) is fictitious. I can't find anything on it other than Amy  Tan's book.

But seen this way, yeah, there's a lot of power there. Great point!

ginny

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Bellamarie:
I personally think it is both, the mother has much pride Waverly is her daughter and at nine years old is National chess champion.  But, I can see how Waverly thinks her mother makes it all about herself.

Obviously as your post went on  you are not the type of mother I am about to describe, but there are some mothers who sort of live through their children's accomplishments (and fathers, too)..and count on that for their own...power....and it's not particularly far fetched to think that in the   case of Waverly that this is exactly what happened.   Waverly is her ticket to success in America. Waverly I think realizes that, and resents that.   Or is she just a normal teenage girl?

But Waverly's mother is nothing compared to Jing Mei Woo's mother whose relentless search for the prodigy in Jing Mei was pretty stunning I think (the last story). Here the mother seemed to try everything to discover the talent in her child. How many times have we seen this in child and parent and usually  with sort of the same result: a disaster. Or was it? I think that Jing- Mei Woo knew why her mother was determined to find in  her a prodigy, and the constant failures took a toll on both of them: the child's constantly disappointing her mother hurt them both, and caused the rebellion at the piano, and words which should not have been spoken.

"Alakazam, ahnd her face went blank, her mouth closed, her eyes went slack andn she backed out of the room,  stunned as if she were blowing away as a small brown leaf....thin, brittle, lifeless."

Having lost those two babies, she could not take what was said in anger, that her daughter wished she had never been born: "I wish I were dead! Like them."

We all have had times when in anger we have said things we should not have. When that happens between a parent and a child, what is either to do? What did Jing Woo's mother do?

Does Jing Woo seem to regret this? Or apologize?

How do  you explain the end, then,   that she actually CAN play the piano, and that the two halves: Pleading  Child and Perfectly Contented come together at the last?

 What do you think of what the mother did in response or the daughter? Or the ending?

And you've said a lot more fabulous things, more tomorrow morning on them.


BarbStAubrey

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We are in luck -  ;) - I've been learning the Tao for over 30 years - the Tao is not in competition with any religion - the Tao is everything and filled with the secrets of what we would call in Christian religion, mystics - I meet monthly with a group who study the Tao and in our group are a couple of Chinese Doctorate students attending UT and Sunday a Taoist Monk from Taiwan visited for the day - where I did not ask these questions in particular the reading material is answering some of our questions reading this book.

First and I think important is for us to know is the word luck that we associate with a hap hazard bit of superstition where as in Taoism luck can be described as a system, like our postal system that transfers one thing to another.

There are many symbols in Taoism like for instance the Dragon - which is not suggesting a real dragon or that anyone like in the stories of Knights slayed a dragon - the dragon is simply the essence (like the Tao), that goes in a line and many followers in that unit, going into another place to give birth to new things there. Like food - many kinds that will nourish the body however, usually described as the sperm in mass entering and then giving the place a potential of birth, of the baby.

In Taoism, very important is Yuen Sun, such as the Yuen Sun of our life, or even the altar as a Yuen Sun. A Yuen Sun will be the resource pool, where all the things are, and where things started from.

The physical body is the container in this world that contains the soul inside, and you are responsible for acting things out, doing it, and at the end, showing yourself by physical action. When you see, hear, smell, you will absorb the light and energy back to your mind, and your mind will connect with your Yuen Sun again and “teach” your Yuen Sun how to adjust itself according to your life here.

If your Yuen Sun cannot deliver its package to you, because of some issue with the soul or other factors such as “luck stealing magic” and such, then you are going to be having “bad luck”.

You and your Yuen Sun, which is the soul in dimension 6. In order to passes through dimension 6, you have to open up the dimension 5, which is actually the “doorway” or "gate" to your soul here. In dimension 5, there is a lot of forces pushing downward because energy keeps flowing from 1 to 2 to 3 and downward to 9. In order to “open the gate” going backward in the stream, it’s hard and there is a lot of resistance force, just like trying to swim upstream in a river or walking backward in an escalator. But it’s not impossible.

An outsized number is not an accurate number - it shows the difficulty or the wonderment like the 100 Schools of Thought which mean uncountable bits of wisdom. And so we can safely assume 26 is an outside number for 6  that shows the difficulty if you allow luck stealing magic by doing some of the traditional activities that could prompt luck stealing.

Remember Taoism is the first religion of China long before Confucius much less Buddhism - goes back at least 8000 years before Christ and the traditions and precepts are basic to China with the only change in religion as basic to society happening because of Mao. Most Taoist practices were altered during the time of Genghis Khan, who appointed Chang-chun overseer of all religions in China, and the Dragon Gate sect thus played a critical role in the conservation of the Han Chinese culture.   

First of all, Taoist Magic, is magic that draws power from the Tao. The normal Tao of a human being is their own Yuen Sun and so the ordinary Taoist is often drawing energy out of their own Yuen Sun, pulling resources from their pre-heaven body to the post-heaven body, unleashing the potentials to reality. While this idea is great, it does have an issue like using your credit card to pay off things before you have the actual money.

Well, life is not always fair, because there are these thieves and bullies around, using all sorts of secretive and invisible methods to steal our luck, and loots away the success that we worked hard to achieve. Stealing is bad, but have you thought of people not successful in stealing and they start to destroy things that they are not able to have? Some burglars tried to break into a house and they failed to find the cash they wanted, then they will throw things around, destroy your furniture and “give you a lesson”. This kind of things will happen in the physical world which is like the energy of luck stealing.

There are in Taoism five methods of stealing luck - remember luck is not as we understand luck but a pathway of sorts - A form of magic that does the luck stealing can be doing one or even all five at once, depending on their magic knowledge and methods.

Luck stealing can be done with magic of all sorts, but it can also be done by people who are not intended to do so, yet their mind’s greediness plus the evil spirits that were tapped to them will make it happen, and this is especially commonly seen with the “prayers type” of people in the society. Some people don’t know about magic, and they just believe in some religious paths that promote a lot of “praying” for whatever they want to happen or say to their “gods”. That, of course, includes most of their “venting” and complaining about life.

“Why should this person have all the success, it should be mine, why it’s so not fair?”

When they start complaining and venting out all these things, which can even be done in their subconscious level, their “praying” can be tapped by other spiritual things, including evil spirits trying to find some fun in the air. How cool is it to “pretend god”?  These spirits will then help them fulfill their requests the “tricky way” in exchange for their joy and loot.

Prayer will not protect you - prayer is like sending messages through the internet without a security program installed, and hackers will tap in for their own whatever reasons. In order to protect yourself from all these things mentioned above, including all kinds of luck stealing, and energy vampires, you must build up your power for protecting yourself and be able to build walls around yourself that will shield you from the contamination and intrusions.

The protection most often suggested is to learn the laws of magic which are essentially the various laws of divination (I ching) and behavior listed in the book over well over 2000 precepts that include treatment of the earth, when to use the wheel, when to make choices that involve money or the body or flowers etc. When I shared earlier how many of the Asians I worked with when choosing their home referred to a large book and knew certain rules that I soon learned, most of you associated the practices with Feng Shui which is something else again, that is related to the wheel of life and how to bring luck to the various aspects of life sectioned off on that (physical) wheel that is built on a compass - each room holds various aspects of family life. However, all these practices are connected and part of the magic that will be useful to protect someone from luck stealing.

Most of the luck stealing is a retaliation by someone's jealousy of your wealth, station in life, circumstances of your life, you relationship to those with whom you prefer to be the apple of their eye. Which can account for a mother-in-law who is jealous of her son's wife or a husband who feels the lack of attention from the wife because of the birth of a child - for  very serious luck stealing there is a ceremony performed that has to do with distancing in which your name is changed and everything about you is changed including birth date and legal records.

In China the tiger is thought in terms of both awe and admiration: its prowess, its ferocity, its beauty, and the harmony of the opposites. Tigers kill evil men and protect good men however, an earth symbol that is the equal rival of the Chinese dragon which is associated with the Emperor of China

All to say, the mother's concern for the luck of their children is far more than minimizing it to how we look at magic - it is the basis of their religious belief and the words have deeper meaning than we in the west associate meaning to these words. These mother's are frantic trying to protect their children from luck stealers like if our children did not understand that a vehicle could kill if they fall off their bike while riding in the street only this had little to do with safety and more to do with leaving yourself open to have your luck stolen.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Barb, this information on Tao is very interesting.  Imagine these mothers as you say,
Quote
frantic trying to protect their children from luck stealers
due to their Chinese mystics, and their daughters being American, not knowing anything about this way of life in China, so of course there is a miscommunication between mothers and daughters.  Maybe when we get to the next section American Translation, their communication skills have gotten better, giving them the ability to better understand each other's ways.

I remember raising my first son, I would see danger around every corner.  I tried to protect him from all harm, to the point he would jump at every little sound.  My sister said to me one day, while we were sitting out under her tree, in her yard, "Marie, you have gotten Michael so afraid of everything he can't relax sitting under this tree, for fear it will fall on him and hurt him."  She was so right, and it made me realize, I was passing all my fears onto my son.  In doing this it only taught him to trust less, and to fear more.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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Good morning, Ginny. You are so kind. Thank you for having me. Without all of you, I would have never read this novel. When I'm not posting, I'm thinking about The Joy Luck Club. Please take care of those eyes. That's an important surgery you're going through. I am getting older and have a fear someone is constantly following my posts and trying to correct them before I can finish writing and editing. Oh my, it's just one of my bothers. Lately, I suppose each of us thinks of hacking. Well, I am anxious to read the new posts for today.

hats

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Quote
Remember Taoism is the first religion of China long before Confucius much less Buddhism - goes back at least 8000 years before Christ and the traditions and precepts are basic to China with the only change happening because of Mao.

Thank you Barb for sharing about Taoism. I only have heard the word and knew nothing about the meaning. When I think of Waverly and her mother, I can only feel sadness. I don't think all mothers are so intense about involving themselves with the pursuits of their daughters. Those that do it, we call women Stage mothers. From off stage they push and push their children to excel in what they would do or they would like and not what their children might like. Probably, learning all the ways to achieve in America, learning all the rules have caused Waverly's mom, Suyuan Woo, to become stronger visibly and not invisibly. In my eyes, I see Waverly as more emotional, subjective, and not objective like her mother. Her love of colors and the wind are feelings of a poetic spirit. Perhaps, she would have loved writing? Painting? The alley was quiet and I could see the yellow lights shining from our flat like two tiger's eyes in the night. Later, Waverly describes those eyes as a lemon yellow or a brighter yellow.
Thank you too, bellamarie. I tried to find info about the Twenty-Six Malignant Gates. I became totally lost. I did come away thinking like you and Ginny that the book of rules is fictionalized by Amy Tan. Her thoughts are truly amazing. Amy Tan is very able to mix reality with the fictional world of China. Of course, after all is said and done there is the knowledge that Waverly's mom only wants her to live a successful and happy life in America. Most mothers have a tendency to try very hard. However, I don't remember my mother pushing me. She seemed to have the blessed gift of walking beside me, not too far behind and not too far ahead. Always there to give a helping hand. As an immigrant mother, I'm sure helping daughters is doubly hard. When Suyuan gives Waverly the chang, a red jade tablet, I feel the love as she unwraps it very carefully. I feel great pleasure reading about how other cultures express their love for their children.

Frybabe

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Thank you, Barb, for the information about the Tao. I tried to read the I Ching many, many years ago, but didn't understand much, if any, of it. Without any knowledge of Taoism itself and looking at from the Western definition of luck, I am,  now, not surprised.

hats

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For some reason, I focused on the wrong mother of a daughter. I should have put Lindo Jong instead of Suyuan Woo. Very sorry for that huge mistake.

bellamarie

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Ginny, I am so sorry you are having issues with cataracts.  I pray your surgery goes well for you.  We avid readers need our eyes to keep on reading.  I have allergies, and if I forget to take my Claritin in the morning, my eyes will get irritated, and it's no fun dealing with them seeping, itchy and watering, etc.  Please take care. 

Hats, I for one, and know I am speaking for all, am so happy you are here with us discussing this book.  We have missed you greatly, and feel we have a gem among us, when you are here.  I truly love your insight and input.  Hmmm...someone lurking behind you, watching your posting.  Don't we all deal with a little worry using the internet?  I've decided I can't NOT use it, so I have to just hope no one ever hacks me, and does any harm with my info.  I think us book club members are pretty safe at this site. 


Ginny, 
Quote
there are some mothers who sort of live through their children's accomplishments (and fathers, too)..and count on that for their own...power....and it's not particularly far fetched to think that in the   case of Waverly that this is exactly what happened.   Waverly is her ticket to success in America. Waverly I think realizes that, and resents that.   Or is she just a normal teenage girl?

Hats,
Quote
I don't think all mothers are so intense about involving themselves with the pursuits of their daughters. Those that do it, we call women Stage mothers.

I agree, parents living through their child to accomplish the things they were unable to, is very common.  Stage mothers, brrr....it gives me shivers just picturing those mothers who put their little toddlers in those puffed up beauty pageants, spend hundreds of thousands of dollars in fancy dresses, shoes, accessories, hair stylists and make-up, so they can win a title and trophy.  I've heard horror stories of how competitive and nasty these mothers and daughters become.  I entered my daughter Julie in a Miss Ohio Pre-teen pageant when she was thirteen, because she was determined she wanted to be a model one day.  The rules were NOT to dress your pre-teen older, no make-up or inappropriate age dresses.  We followed the rules to the letter.  The winner and runner up, was not only wearing tons of make-up, but their dresses were not "pre-teen" at all.  I'm glad my daughter got to experience this week end pageant, and she did go on to modeling school in high school, and did some modeling for charity foundations and a few stores in our area mall.  She was approached by a modeling company in New York to come test for them and after discussing it, my hubby and I decided she was too young for this life style.  She agreed with us and did not pursue the modeling any further after high school.  I think giving her that opportunity, was enough to allow her to choose, it was not something she wanted for a career. 

Ginny, I like how you ask, "Or is she (Waverly) a normal teenager?"   I got the feeling there was heavy resentment for her mother, but ultimately she wanted her mother's praise. I did feel Suyuan was far worse pushing Jing-mei, to find her prodigy.  In the end though, the adult Jing-mei found she could play the piano quite well.  She resented her mother so much so, she was not willing to see that at her earlier age. 

Hats, it's easy to get these mothers and daughters mixed up, I keep my book next to me needing to glance back at which daughter's name, goes with which mother.  What a beautiful way to describe how your mother was for you:

I don't remember my mother pushing me. She seemed to have the blessed gift of walking beside me, not too far behind and not too far ahead. Always there to give a helping hand.

My mother was the same, and I hope my daughter feels this way about me.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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bellamarie, I hope your allergies improve each day. Thak you for the kind words.

BarbStAubrey

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Ginny hope you are doing well after your cataract surgery - did you do laser or the usual?  Seems to come with the territory now that after a certain age cataract surgery is automatic - in some places it is like going to Walmart with the patients lined up for morning surgery  - hope all goes well and there are no complications.

Hats I hear from my one grandson that Philly is the place to be now - seems so many 'with it' cities are so expensive and so many young people are choosing Philly for their first job or for advanced degrees at the University of Pennsylvania. Evidently U of P is known for having a wonderful International Law Program - and so must be living in a thriving city - isn't the Liberty Bell in Philadelphia?

Bellamarie I too remember how cautious I was with my first but did not have long to stay cautious since my daughter was born exactly to the day 9 months and 6 weeks later - thank goodness I was young because it was a challenge.

Frybabe yes, it took me years to learn the difference in meaning to so many words that are translated straight on but have a totally different meaning. I used to throw my I Ching and had one of the better books to explain to me the meaning but the more I learn the more there is to it then interpreting those six markings. And really we only became knowledgeable about Taoism in the 1950s when Alan Watts published some of the first translations.

Because of the changes during the time of Genghis Khan there is very little pure Taoists any longer - there is a southern and northern section and a group that branched from the northern group, the Dragon Gate with a well known monastery in Beijing and they all now include various bits of Buddhism plus various degrees of Kungfu - In the west we are still using mostly the books translated by Alan Watts and Thomas Cleary however, I understand there are more changes since the resurgence of religion in China after Mao.

For me I find the similarity between Taoism and the Catholic Mystics - it is all about an interior life and learning the explanation of luck reminded me of reading Meister Eckhart as he described the process connecting our soul to the whole that we call God.

Has anyone else been watching the series about the entire history of China by Michael Wood - it is showing on our PBS but I understand it is also available on Youtube - Michael Wood does such a masterful job when he brings us the history of any area of the world or time in history and this is very well done.

here is one link - http://www.pbs.org/story-china/home/

this is the Youtube page although all the Episodes do not show - maybe linking on one will bring up the other Episodes
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1&q=the%20story%20of%20china%20youtube&ved=0ahUKEwjzpoaOnr3cAhVPXq0KHR09DqgQsKwBCDEoADAA&biw=1050&bih=534

Here are the six Episodes and if you click on 'Q&A with Michael Wood' there are other clips
http://www.pbs.org/story-china/about-the-series/overview/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Ginny, I hope your cataract surgery goes well.  It takes a week or so afterward for your vision to settle down to its final point.  I was very disconcerted at first because my vision would get better, worse, better, worse.  but it does settle down, and I ended up very pleased.

PatH

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Barb, thanks for your notes on Taoism; that's a help in trying to get into this different mindset.

Frybabe, if you ever decide to have another go at it, Ursula K. LeGuin has translated the Tao Te Ching.  I haven't seen it, but knowing her, it's almost guaranteed to be a good job, hence maybe a good starting point.

ginny

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 Thanks, Everybody, about the cataract surgery, I haven't had it done  yet, I'm in the stage where if you have worn hard contact lenses for a long time (like from 1957 as I have) then you don't just go have the surgery, you first go without the contac in the eye for 4 weeks, get measured, another 4 weeks, and then if there's no change then you can schedule it. If there is a change, you go 3-4 weeks more.

Yesterday was the actual 2nd 4th week for my left eye, which is the only one I'm having done,  but they're counting it as the first, so I'll go back on August 15 for the 3rd new measurement,  and we'll see then. It is going to be laser.  I had carefully scheduled the discussion to end the 12th so it wouldn't be interrupted, sorry for the problem.   Imagine having one eye 20/25 and the other not able to see anything at all, and together they are fighting for dominance.

That wasn't an issue until Sunday and for some reason now the left eye seems in a struggle for supremacy with the right. Neither is winning. Together they don't focus at all, so I have to keep the left one shut. The glasses are too long out of date to help. Long story short, I am not able to read the computer screen at all unless I put something over the left eye, so that's why I am not here much.  (I can read it on the ipad at nose distance but it's hard to type with your nose). hahaha I'm going to go buy an eye patch tomorrow and see if it will help.
Now back to our saga. hahaa


ginny

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I've been thinking a  lot about the book.

Hats mentioned getting the people mixed up. I am, too.  Did she change the order of the  stories when the daughters began to speak? I had proceeded on the notion that the daughters would follow the same order as the mothers, but they don't, do they? I read one story, ignoring the title and was shocked to see I had ascribed her to the wrong mother.

So I had to read it again.

And that made me question why she did it that way?

Why do you think she has presented the story in this order? Wouldn't it have been more logical  to have let each character tell their entire  story in one block?

What do you think  the effect the presentation has on the reader is ? I am almost positive it's not a random thing.

ginny

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Another thing I'm seeing here that I would like your thoughts on is...and I don't know  how to put this, but we all have stories, we are all part also of a bigger story, our families have a story, what happens when the story stops?

For instance look at all these DNA ads on TV. I thought I was German but I found out I was Scottish  so now I wear a kilt?

It would seem people long for some continuity to know who they "are," to know their stories, the stories of their family background, so they can realize their identity...Perhaps to  have  things they hope to pass down, maybe along with one artifact (or a houseful, depending..) but what happens when that stops?

For instance what happens to the carefully preserved family home where  children have been raised when the new generation doesn't want it?  Does the family history die then, too?

What happens when the new generation does not care to hear (or in the case of this story can't understand) the background, the old stories which  the elders try so hard to convey? What's the consequence of that? DNA tests on TV?

I went to an Estate Sale of the author of a famous children's book, I can't recall her name now, or the book. Something about a rabbit. She had retired in Tryon NC, beautiful large old home, millions of books (that was why I went) but also photos after photos after photos, albums, all people unidentified and unclaimed. Apparently she had no children,  or relatives who wanted the photos,  nobody to hand them down to, and all those carefully preserved old photos were for sale. That was so sad. I wanted to buy some just to keep them from being dispersed, or in the trash or burned, but I don't know who the people were. That family history died with that author.

Why DO people hope to pass down to the next generation things of meaning to them? Is that a vain hope?  In these stories it's not so much things, is it? Physical things. How interesting that the first allegory or chapter tale  used a feather saved from the goose that was taken away from her. A physical thing to symbolize a family culture and history being passed down, in a new land where she can also become "more than what was hoped for."

This book is absolutely chock FULL of Symbolism, it's almost a parable in itself, isn't it?

Then in the second chapter's pre-story a book of Chinese Mysteries is cited, which the young  American girl challenges: "You can't tell me because you don't know!" The book is a myth, apparently, part of the folklore the mother hopes to pass down, but is refused, and ironically the child fulfills the prophesy of the book by not heeding the warning, when she rejects out of hand the tales of the past.

Sharper than a serpent's tooth....

I wonder where Amy Tan is  going with these stories of the attempt to pass to the younger generation something that (in the first chapter) was taken away from the giver with only one feather left and (in the second chapter) rejected.

Do you think that trying to preserve family history, culture and stories,  is doable at all?

Whose side are you on in these stories so far, whose side do you understand more? The parent trying desperately to pass on cultural heritage and identity and failing or the daughter trying to start her own story and a new life?

 Why do you feel more in common with one side than the other?  Is that because of the skill of the author or is that because you can identify with one or the other sides?

OR will it all one day come to pass like Oxymandias:

I met a traveller from an antique land,
Who said—“Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. . . . Near them, on the sand,
Half sunk a shattered visage lies, whose frown,
And wrinkled lip, and sneer of cold command,
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them, and the heart that fed;
And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.”

---Shelley

A Mahjongg tile for your thoughts. :)

hats

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When I think of Family Histories, what comes to mind is Roots by Alex Haley. In my lifetime, I think he is the first one who opened my realization to the fact about ancestors and the importance of finding our true identities and protecting them. Often, due to Hurricanes, earthquakes, fire and other supernatural events there is loss of family photographs, perhaps the very bed where you were born and other precious furniture. Then, there is a need to go beyond the material to the spiritual. Reaching further away from Grandma's piano and Papa's butterfly collection may lead us deeper into our true identity. Perhaps, there is where the real circle of love and truth becomes found.
The ladies of The Joy Luck Club seem to reach that center or central place. Coming through the war losing loved ones as well as precious treasures like paintings or kitchenware there is more or something deeper that is important to pass on to their daughters. DNA is so significant. I seriously doubt that it is easy to lose our touch with it. There is a need for time, money and education in order to find, refind or discover,  rediscover the parts of our past. Those who do such work in a greater way are Archaeologists whom we should appreciate for shoveling up our past gifts for our branches (loved ones, relatives) long after we are gone. There is the hope that these workers will discover that old bed, crib, quilt or mirror again. Thank God, we can recall them in our memories. I can still see toys from childhood and my family's childhood in my mind. Although, they are no longer, sadly, with me.
I can't recall how much talking the ladies in the Joy Luck Club did during their games. I am in the process of refamiliarizing myself with the first chapter.  Thinking I will meet all of the daughters and mothers there as an introduction. I am so afraid of mixing up those names which the mothers and fathers must have taken great time to choose. Ginny, yummy, yummy, thank you for the poem by Shelley. Can't wait to hear the thoughts about it. I have often read it. Then, fallen into a mountain of sand. The poem's meaning travels deeper than my camel brain wants to go. By the way, I did listen to that old song, Buttercup, Butter. PatH, I see you mentioned Ursula K. Le Guin. I have delved just a tiny, tiny bit into Science Fiction. Frightened of it and this author. Is she for the advanced students of Science Fiction? Also, have been thinking about Mysticism's definition after rereading Barb's post about Tao.

BarbStAubrey

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Passing down things and even the stories I'm thinking was a perk for the middle and upper class - When you think about it for hundreds of years few could read or write - all they had were their stories and the stories worth remembering were of some deed, brave or funny - the old tales are always of a hero or heroin even if a fool that were passed down when there was enough energy left before folks had to replenish their energy with sleep. So that if there was energy to simply relax  stories were shared as the sun set or the fire glowed - this was the way of things even in the 1930s so that families that do have photos or furniture are fairly modern and wealthy enough to own a camera or have the photo taken probably the day the married and have 'things' worthy of passing on to the next generation as well as a place to keep the 'things'.

For hundreds of years folks were born and died and their only daily pursuit was to work for self-preservation - finding food and shelter, family and community. DNA may give us a clue but to research family is usually through the census, recorded birth, death and marriage records - unless there is a family story we mostly stitch together what we think may have been their life based on the history that others during the time period left which again would be those with the leisure to write and keep a diary or family log.

In the series on China tonight there was a family who for the second time during a revolution, the last time being the Cultural Revolution, of all their artwork they hid a painting of the members of their direct lineage that went through several dynasties and represent 20 of the current 42 generations leading back to one man - and another family from all over China meet annually to celebrate their family heritage that leads back to an early Chinese poet.

Out of that I realized when the next generation in this country is passing along any story we seldom pass along the heroism of the person who came to America - I think because the next couple of generations are too busy carving out a life in keeping with the success that is the promise of coming to America. I'm thinking finding out as much as we can about the person who arrived and seeing the bravery of leaving home, family, community and traditions for a new place and unless they just hopped on a plane the trip to America may have involved risk that we take for granted and was really an act of courage and bravery.

But yes, too bad there was not someone or a group interested in obtaining all the photos and personal papers and the books of the author from Tryon - that is the stuff that could be put in order and made into a social history - but it takes a group whose purpose is to preserve local history and to be known for their work so that in advance the deceased could contact the preservation group, maybe even bequeathing the material but at least give the group the opportunity to crowd source funds to purchase the material because, as you say, Ginny it is now all lost and scattered.

But then with the reaction to some of our history now looked at from a single lens the statues are pulled down, streets and schools names are changed as if erasing these people with the assumption they only stood for one thing that we abhor without honoring the complexity and nobility of these people - reminds me of how an initial reaction to the truth of a family member is finally admitted or a secret told and often the reaction is to obliterate anything they represent and only after time are the other positive aspects of these family members acknowledged making their lives confusing but accepting a more nuanced member of the family. Now after several generations pass a family member who was less than noble or 'good' there is a different reaction, they are laughed off as reprobates or the black sheep of the family.

Another tradition is going by the wayside - the family Bible with all the Births recorded - some also recorded deaths and still others added confirmation and marriage. Today so many when they learn science they do not see god in their study of earth or man nor do they see the benefit of being part of a religious community and so generations of recorded names are hitting the recycled paper pile. Reminds me of China's Cultural Revolution, so much was destroyed but there were some things hidden and recorded history is showing that Mao is a blip in the scheme of things regardless how much was destroyed.       

I'm thinking it is the story tellers that keep alive the history of civilization and there are family storytellers as there are community storytellers - they will keep and share what happened, who was there, that successive generations will take from these stories what thrills, benefits, encourages them.

For most of us, we are unique in that generations of our family certainly did not have access to photography much less DNA and many generations may have been farmers, seaman, woodsmen, miners who used all their energy and life to simply maintain themselves, produce and bring into adulthood a child that is in the direct line of our family tree, so that it will take a storyteller like Amy Tan to bring a composite of their lives together so we can have a glimpse of the possibilities.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Barb, 
Quote
DNA may give us a clue but to research family is usually through the census, recorded birth, death and marriage records - unless there is a family story we mostly stitch together what we think may have been their life based on the history that others during the time period left which again would be those with the leisure to write and keep a diary or family log.

Hats
Quote
DNA is so significant. I seriously doubt that it is easy to lose our touch with it.

Ginny
Quote
Another thing I'm seeing here that I would like your thoughts on is...and I don't know  how to put this, but we all have stories, we are all part also of a bigger story, our families have a story, what happens when the story stops?
For instance look at all these DNA ads on TV. I thought I was German but I found out I was Scottish  so now I wear a kilt?

Funny, the three of you should mention the importance of DNA.  Yesterday was my birthday, and guess what my sons and their families gave me for a present?  An Ancestry DNA kit!!  I was completely shocked when I opened it.  So, maybe we sell this generation a little short on what they find important, between drinking their coca-cola and being attached to their cell phones.  Ginny, you found out you were Scottish, how did you feel about this?  My paternal grandparents immigrated from Italy, I can't wait to see where in Italy.  My maternal grandparents were Indian and Irish.  I am so excited to see what I get back.

Barb,
Quote
Another tradition is going by the wayside - the family Bible with all the Births recorded - some also recorded deaths and still others added confirmation and marriage. Today so many when they learn science they do not see god in their study of earth or man nor do they see the benefit of being part of a religious community and so generations of recorded names are hitting the recycled paper pile.

I still have my large Catholic Bible, with all the family names, dates of birth and deaths.  My hubby recently asked his brother if he could look at their old Bible, for some names and history, the pages were so yellow, dry, and frail they almost fell apart in our hands.  The handwriting was beautiful, but not legible to read.  We couldn't really use it to help us much to learn about relatives, generations ago.   

Ginny, that seemed so sad reading how the family did not want the things of the author.  I often ask myself if what I value, will matter at all to my family, years after I am gone. 

I was telling all the family at dinner about how we are reading The Joy Luck Club, and how it is all about mothers and daughters and their history.  My daughter in law told me her father was adopted by a family when he was older, and they changed his last name from Champion, to Santerelli.  I asked her if she has written this information down so my three granddaughters (her daughters) will have it, since it is a part of their history.  She said no, but after talking to me she thinks it's a good idea to.  A birth family name is so important to make known, especially so if it is the male, who has had his changed to a name that has no relevance, to his actual biological family.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Ginny, I am so very sorry to hear how bad your eyes are, and how difficult it is for you to read and use your computer.  I am amazed you are able to post at all.  Please know, if at any time you can not continue this discussion, we will understand.  I value your presence, insight, and ideas, but your rest and eyesight, as little as it is at this time is so very much more important.  I know you must be anxious to have this laser surgery done and over with.  I have been limiting myself with reading, and computer use, during allergy season to give my eyes more rest.  It sure is difficult to do when you love to read, and use your computer daily.  Thank you for forging on with us through this book. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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I am always glad to see all of your posts. When I'm not here, some times I read the posts again. There is always something missed. Like Bellamarie,  I find your new discovery exciting, Ginny. I would like to know how the knowledge has changed your life. Are you listening to more music with bagpipes, or are you planning a trip to Scotland one day? It's so interesting how we never know all about ourselves during one part of our lives. Too much new knowledge at one time would make us dizzy with the love of adventure and new learning. Bellamarie, a new Ancestry Family kit is a wonderful gift. I hope it won't steal you away from coming here every day. Losing any of you would feel so sad.
I've been thinking about Barb's eye opening post about Family History. Seeing each of us post thoughts about DNA shows we're far from each other in miles but not in thoughts. Although Waverly's mother, Lindo Jong, is very assertive about wanting Waverly to learn Chess, Waverly, thank goodness, seems to have a love for the game and a deep desire to learn it. Is that what all of you get? That she loves Chess? My husband taught my sons to play Chess. The game seems to take a lot of thinking. Something about the Queen or the King grabbing all the men. I shiver just trying to recall the game rules. Is it the Castle that can slide all over the board? If I'm not mistaken, Chess may have Chinese origins? I like the fact that Waverly pinned a model on the wall of the game. Then, she happened to see two old men playing the game. She became very happy. She ran home and grabbed her brother's game and the rolls of Lifesavers. It is great that their ages meant nothing to her. Waverly just saw their joy.
We played many games when I was growing up. Now, I can see that these games like Chess taught character. Amy Tan writes that Chess is great for learning how to keep silent at times.
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It is a game of secrets in which one must show and never tell.
Since I have a Large Print book from the library, the spelling of my words may appear differently. Don't know.

ginny

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I do think that Hat's post on Family Heritage and Barbara's post on story telling are two of the most profound things I have ever read here on SeniorLearn. I have copied them to keep.

At the end Hats said, There is the hope that these workers will discover that old bed, crib, quilt or mirror again. Thank God, we can recall them in our memories. I can still see toys from childhood and my family's childhood in my mind. Although, they are no longer, sadly, with me.

I have a bed of my grandmothers  that my grandson has which he now does not use as he uses bunk beds given him by his cousins, but they still have the bureau and the armoire that went with it, and the bed frame somewhere, it was his daddy's bed, too, and there's a story behind it. I wrote a little poem about it and  wanted to make one of those self published children's books, but the illustrations are beyond me, and so it's shelved. After reading that, I'm going to get it out and self publish it so he can have a copy as it has a  lot of memories for me, and maybe somebody in the future, maybe not. You can't direct the future. Heck you can't direct the present.

On the kilt, this is a commercial on TV where a man comes out in lederhosen and says I always thought I was German, but I took this (whatever) DNA test and I'm really Scottish (or something) so now I wear kilts.

It isn't me, I know who I am because my grandmother on my father's side was an historian, taught history, and did a VERY detailed account of the family roots on my father's side, going way way way back.  Perhaps I could take a DNA test and discover something from my mother's side different? She actually was a McNairy and that IS Scottish, so who knows? hahaha

Bellamarie, thank you for the kind thoughts, I hope your eyes feel better, the allergies this year are incredibly bad. I think it's great that you talk about the book with others and that led to your children's grandmother writing down that change from Champion, to Santerelli....that's quite a change, it would be hard to justify that one as  a name the official couldn't pronounce, wouldn't  it? I am glad she's going to note that for when or if,  as Pat says,  the children want to know.

And imagine getting  a DNA test, as a gift while we're talking about the same thing! Are you going to do it? If you do, will you let  us know what happens?

Hats, what an interesting thought on chess. We also played many board games when I was  young, and I still play them with my grandson but chess is not a game I ever played and am not sure why. I'm not good at checkers so I doubt I'd be a prodigy at chess. hahaha

Barbara, this is a really interesting point:

But then with the reaction to some of our history now looked at from a single lens the statues are pulled down, streets and schools names are changed

The "lens" you mention here, is really the issue, and is really under fire lately.  Mary  Beard, the classicist got into it on Twitter recently, what somebody called "Presentism," looking at the past with the viewpoint of the present, it was a veritable firestorm of reaction....never saw anything like it..It's something that is an issue in Classics today as well as everywhere else, because of the lens we look through at the time.

Our lens, particularly in translation.

It's fascinating, to me, this "revisionism," good and bad, of former figures in history and it goes all the way back past the Romans. Julius Caesar has had more rises and falls than Reginald Perrin, if you all remember that old Britcom.


So on Monday we'll do chapter 3 of our fascinating adventure with the 1001 pieces of this Chinese puzzle. I'm kind of afraid to read it, to be honest, what more can happen to these folks?





ginny

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The Joy Luck Club
« Reply #106 on: July 28, 2018, 08:55:55 AM »
And how can we pass by half the book without mentioning the ever present descriptions  of  food? Did  you notice the food? It reminds me of Pearl  Buck. Reading her books makes me so hungry for the very Chinese  foods she so lovingly  writes about (and remembered), most of which I have never tasted.  We need to make this a full experience and get one of these foods somewhere  and try it and report back. I'm going back through the book, pisck out a couple of things (in case I can't get one here) try it, and report back next week.

I'm still trying to figure out why the stories were put spilt up as they are. First the 4 mothers and  selected parts of their lives which have made them who they are today.

Then the daughters, NOT in order, almost the author saying pay attention now, showing their relationships with those mothers, and the difficulties compounded by the immigrant experience of the mothers, and the communication issues with the daughters, and the need to pass down a cultural heritage which ...possibly?? Quite possibly neither wants to feel is more important than being an American and fitting in.

Am I right on that one?

Where does the culture of China, the  mythology, feather, book of 26 Malignant  Gates actually fit IN with being a perfect speaker of English dream?

It seems the mothers are continuing with the "old ways," what was done to them,  but that's not the sole provenance of being Chinese, it's the norm anywhere.

But just this morning I read in a British newspaper on the ipad  about a football (European) team who stay in a certain hotel for a particular game and every time they stay there they lose the game,  and were thinking the hotel was "bad luck," and were thinking of staying elsewhere. In response the  manager of the hotel did something with salt and said some words of his own culture and VOILA!  They have won ever since. That's not Chinese, but it shows you the role superstation plays today. These old customs take a long time to die out.

But the daughters want to reject it as....not American? And when they do,  their rejection of it hurts the mothers, it's a betrayal of who the mothers are and where they came from.  I began to notice in the book the repetition of the word betrayal, and I began to wonder who is betraying whom or what?

But on the structure,  why DO it that way? What's the justification? Does it ADD to the suspense? For instance, we could  have had Jing Mei's story and her mother's and the babies all together, and then heard from Waverly/ and her mother, and then heard from the other pairs together all at once. That would have been 4 chapters: here's Jing- Mei's story and her mom's, and then Lena's and her moms's encounter with the Moon Lady, etc?

And that would be 4 chapters, but what would tie them together or where would the suspense be?

I am wondering (and I don't know, I hope somebody will tell me) how the structure of the book is adding to our experience or possibly impeding it?

As it is, it's almost like we are also sitting at the Joy Luck Club table, and we are also talking, in  the way people do, this person taking the floor and that person next, not one person talking all the time, so in a way it's like a conversation between us and these fictional characters.

And it's like a conversation because you don't sit down for 15 minutes with somebody and they tell you their entire lives, it comes  out little by little, just like this.


I'm still fascinated with the "Moon Lady" mother, who would speak to her child in Chinese, and Waverely would say: "I could understand the words perfectly, but not the meanings."  That's the issue in any translation and it has to do with Barbara's lens.

The "Moon Lady," as I now think of Ying Ying St. Clair is still lost, isn't she?

What are your last minute thoughts before Chapter 3  on anything  we've read so far or that you would like to mention?

(And keeping in mind this is one of the PBS Great American Reads, I hope you are assembling your own score as to where it would rank, because we'll vote at the end. )



bellamarie

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Ginny, I'm glad you mentioned Barb's post about the lens.  I tend to read a bit too quickly at times and skip over some things.  Barb's posts are always chocked full of info! 
Quote
But then with the reaction to some of our history now looked at from a single lens the statues are pulled down, streets and schools names are changed

Isn't that what life is all about?  We look through a lens and see the past, present and sometimes even a glimpse of the future.  It is sad to drive through my small home town today after not living there for forty-seven years and see all the changes.  I point to a place where a memory is jolted and tell my hubby, that is where I did this or that.  But what really rocks my inner core is to see buildings no longer there.  Here in Toledo, it seems like they are tearing down, closing or renaming so many things, my hubby is feeling a loss.  There is an old historic Catholic/Polish church, St. Anthony, that is vacant and was under consideration of demolishing it.  Our Congresswoman Marcy Kaptur grew up in that old polish neighborhood and campaigned to keep it as a historical building.  The outcome was, "Bishop Thomas then asked Kaptur and Kapszukiewicz to accept the former church and the land on which it is located as a gift from the diocese. They must decide who will the best recipient will be -- the Padua Center (the property originally was donated to the center), the City of Toledo, or the Lucas County Land Bank.
http://www.wtol.com/story/38351712/bishop-accepts-proposal-to-save-st-anthony-catholic-church-sets-conditions

Here is a beautifully written letter Marcy wrote, she has true understanding of her heritage and preserving it.
http://loveletterstotoledo.com/marcy-kaptur/

It is wonderful Kaptur saved the demolition of the church, how many of the millennials even care about a church they attend, to save it today.  The lens we baby boomers, and older, look through, are an entirely different lens, than our children and grandchildren.  I try looking through their lens at times, and I can honestly say, it's a bit foggy and confusing for me.  But then, on my sixty-sixth birthday, THEY, gift me an Ancestry DNA kit, and it tells me THEY, just may be looking a bit through my lens, and want to know more about what I see.  This gives me much joy!

Hats, No fear, I am not going anywhere! 

Yes, I do intend to use the DNA kit.  I hesitated for a bit, but have heard others who have done it and are happy they did, so why not? 

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Ginny
Quote
I'm still trying to figure out why the stories were put spilt up as they are. First the 4 mothers and  selected parts of their lives which have made them who they are today.

Then the daughters, NOT in order, almost the author saying pay attention now,

Hmmm.... I'm not sure why Amy Tan would switch the order.  I do know that Suyuan and Jing-mei's story seemed to bring us back to the silk dresses, feather and the piano, which seem significant to the story.  It's possible she wanted to end this section there, reminding the readers, that we began and end here, at this point in the stories of the mothers and daughters.  For me personally, I have been more emotionally attached to Suyuan and Jing-mei. 

What about the rest of you?  Does one set of mother/daughters pull you closer than the other?

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Hats, 
Quote
Although Waverly's mother, Lindo Jong, is very assertive about wanting Waverly to learn Chess, Waverly, thank goodness, seems to have a love for the game and a deep desire to learn it. Is that what all of you get? That she loves Chess? 

Yes!  Waverly loved the game of Chess. Waverly was the one who wanted to play the game after watching her two brothers strategizing and enjoying it.  She begged them to let her play.  Her mother became more involved once Waverly taught herself the secrets of the game, and not to reveal them.  Lindo got a bit greedy in wanting Waverly to "win more, lose less." Winning wasn't enough for Lindo, she needed to see Waverly do it losing less pieces. 

Oh, for sure the game requires much thinking.  My two nephews taught my husband and me back many years ago.  They were only about twelve and thirteen years old.  I may have been in my early twenties.  My hubby and I got so hooked on it, that we played it nightly for years.  We were just trying to teach our ten year old grandson a few weeks ago. I haven't played in so long, but it all comes back to me as soon as I place my fingers on the first pawn to move.  I like how Zak asked, "Why do certain pieces get to move in certain directions, and not the other pieces?"  I laughed, and said, "Zak, that is the mystery of the game."    We also learned Backgammon, which is also so much fun!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Ginny, you posed so many good questions, and I want to respond more, but my hubby and I are off to the Farmer's Market to buy some fresh green beans.  I plan to have Zak & Zoey snap them for me, and help make green beans, potatoes and ham with cornbread, today for their sleepover.  I remember doing it with my mother, and my grandmother  would make the best ever.  So I want to pass it down to my grandchildren.  I am sure they will enjoy it, they love helping Papa and Nonnie cook our meals.  I hope to have some down time tomorrow, after they go home, to read the next section.  Can't wait to see what the American Translation holds for us.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Reading again this book after so many years I am getting a similar reaction that does not feel good - When a women is traumatized during her youth and during the early years of her marriage, as these mother's were - they, with all their heart want to prepare and protect their daughters - all they have to work with is what they know - it is not like this was taking place within the last 20 years when the affect of traumas of all kinds has been explored and accepted. They, like all trauma victims would have been living with flashbacks that are sort of touched on but as what seems like un-necessary reactions to current situations.

But aside from all that, these mothers, who had no access to therapy could only do for their daughters what they were taught would protect or attempt to live as those who did not experience their numbing life events - onlyl to protect their girls - and to learn this was not protection enough or did not make a difference would make them feel their life was useless - and so, they not only have the early trauma to live with but the realization, what they knew and attempted to do to protect their daughters was not adequate or useful or in ways not even successful.

The game Mahjong is so perfect an analogy with processes to rob tiles, to use sets of eyes and to create a legal defense to both protect and be aggressive against other players - this game seems to be the mother's only place where they have any control - because yes, it is a lost cause to control your children but then they had no tools to teach the daughters how to protect themselves or the real issue how could I have protected myself from what happened.

I'm finding the book to be quite depressing to read... seeing the helplessness of the mothers original experiences and their helplessness to make a real difference and teach their daughters how to effectively protect themselves from harm. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Barb, Wait til you read the next section, and you may see these mothers in a different light.  We will begin discussing, American Translation tomorrow, and boy do I have a lot to say about this section!   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

hats

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Ginny and Bellamarie, your posts are so full of meaning and beauty. I especially love the story of the Moon Lady too. Life would become less than wonderful if we didn't have celebrations and rituals. Some years I have become so tired. I would drag my feet putting up the Christmas tree and wreath on the door. As a matter of fact, that happened last year. Then, thank goodness my mind began to wake up and realize how awful I would feel not baking a turkey and sending Christmas cards. We appreciate those who flow into our melting pot more as we learn about their customs. I won't forget the  Like you Ginny, this might very well become my favorite story of the Joy Luck Club. I think you mentioned a poem. You wrote it. I didn't know you wrote poetry. I would love to read one at some point. Still remember tho, the problem with your eyes. I hope that ordeal will end soon. You certainly act with grace while it's happening. Bellamarie, I love your posts about your husband. He seems like a very sentimental guy. Our community where I grew up has changed greatly through the years. Sadly, I haven't been back. Friends tell me this is gone and that is gone. There honesty about what has disappeared makes me hold tighter to my memories. There is still hope of one day seeing my row house and the one of friends, Market and Chestnut Street, corner stores and churches. Ginny shared many of the happenings and not happenings years ago. My gratitude still remains boundless.
I am a picky eater. Still, there is the love of seeing different dishes from foreign lands like China. For example, the mooncakes are very yummy looking with different fillings. The Moon Festival happens during autumn. That's my favorite time of year. Our celebratory festivals seem always to surround a season. Easter is spring. Christmas is winter. Halloween is fall and on and on. My grandson's birthday and my birthday is in autumn near Thanksgiving. My husband, only grand-daughter and a daughter - in -aw have birthdays in January. A big part of my family, the boys and grandchildren, and a wife or two have birthdays in the month of May. June is birthday time for two. Someone is lieft out or not remembered. Will they forgive me? Perhaps, this is my secret reading club with friends. Without trying, I still remember the birthdays of some of those who are gone, passed away. Celebrations certainly bring  forth unburied and buried love. I think Ying-Ying St. Clair will always remember her family and her amah. I did wonder if the word amah had Indian origins? It seems like I've seen it in an Indian novel or two. I could go on and on writing about this Moon Celebration.
There is a quote especially significant.
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But now that I am old, moving every year closer to the end of my life, I also feel closer to the beginning. And I remember everything that happened that day because it has happened many times in my life. The same innocence, trust, and restlessness, the wonder, fear, and loneliness. How I lost myself.
Memory is so amazing. Spending a little time studying memory would not become a regret. Memory is so precious. I can't imagine what it would feel like to suffer with amnesia. What Ying-Ying asks of the Moon Lady is special too. It's like she's sharing her prayer with us.
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I also remember what I asked the Moon Lady so long ago. I wished to be found.
As I read forward, the epigraphs are becoming more important. I realize Amy Tan didn't write those just for the beauty of italic words. Thank you for the You tube. Wow! It was like a full plate. I have much left over to view.


bellamarie

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Barb, 
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Reading again this book after so many years I am getting a similar reaction that does not feel good

Hats,
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Like you Ginny, this might very well become my favorite story of the Joy Luck Club.
I too expressed earlier that this may be one of my favorite books, but I am finding I am changing my mind, as I learn more and more of these mothers and daughters.  I'm not especially liking how they are all so critical of each other.  These next sections seem to be bringing out the worst in each other.

Barb, you think these women are doing the best they can with their past trauma.
I'm beginning to think it's about personality conflicts as well.  These mothers and daughters do things purposefully to inflict guilt, shame or pain on each other.  It is sad reading these stories.  I'm not so sure if I can see their motives are to protect their daughters, more so they are controlling mothers, and resentful daughters.

Be back later, I have a luncheon with my high school gals, in my small hometown of Monroe, Michigan. 
You can take the girl out of the small town, but you can not take the small town out of the girl!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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hats,  I agree, our lives would be so much less, without celebrating our holidays, traditions, etc.  I'm glad to see you managed to decorate and cook for your holidays, I know how much my children and grandchildren look forward to it.  I begin decorating for Christmas the week before Thanksgiving, and have an annual cookie bake/sleepover with my grandchildren the week before Christmas.  We have the best time, baking cookies, frosting them and seeing who can make the prettiest cookie.  Of course everyone gets high praise.  My family celebrates every holiday together including each one's birthday.  I hope we can do this for many years to come.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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I love Chapter 3.

This is absolutely my favorite chapter in the entire book because she's tying  up the ends and I'm fascinated by what has developed in each of the sagas. This section is beautifully done.   It seems like every page has another great quote, we need a month on this one alone.

I am so impressed by this chapter I don't know where to start.

Thank you, Hats,  and I loved this: Some years I have become so tired. I would drag my feet putting up the Christmas tree and wreath on the door. As a matter of fact, that happened last year. Then, thank goodness my mind began to wake up and realize how awful I would feel not baking a turkey and sending Christmas cards. We appreciate those who flow into our melting pot more as we learn about their customs.

The times change and we change with them. But who has changed in this story and who has not? And what do the changes MEAN?

And Bellemarie: These mothers and daughters do things purposefully to inflict guilt, shame or pain on each other.  It is sad reading these stories.  I'm not so sure if I can see their motives are to protect their daughters, more so they are controlling mothers, and resentful daughters

Or are the mothers trying to hang on the only way they know as age and their daughters growing up are marginalizing the mother? Mom's great see through all seeing wisdom which the daughters resented, like the 26 Malignant Gates is now realized by the daugthers is only that: a myth for control. More importantly, a myth that will make mom still meaningful in her daughter's life.

 It's how they respond to this knowledge that's interesting in this chapter, to me.

Questions du jour: we  need a month on this chapter, we really do.

1. What is the kindest act by any person in this chapter?

2. What does the title "American Translation" mean?  Who or what is being translated?

3. Have any of the characters in this story changed? Who and why?

4. What did you make of the "peach blossom luck" little parable at the beginning of this chapter?

5. What do you think the green jade pendant means?

A rice ball for your thoughts. :)




ginny

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The Joy Luck Club was published in 1989, almost 30 years ago. I was a different person 30 years ago, without grown children. My perspective was different, I related to different things in the book than I do now.  I read this then and loved it but the lens I looked through was different than it is now.  Now with Chapter 3 I love it again.  That's really a test of a great book, can it stand the test of time. Now I'm focused on the mothers.

I love the title American Translation. It speaks to the need for "translating" to communicate, the immigrant experience,  and the difficulty communicating across cultures. This difficulty exists in America between persons always having lived in America, too, not just between immigrants, American born  Americans   who live in different American cultures in different parts of the country. Check out the values of some reality shows, the Swamp Men, the..    it's endless.  This is a big wonderful  country and sometimes you can't translate what an American thinks, what values he has,  much less somebody holding fast to Chinese culture,  falling back on the tried and true Chinese ways ,while striving to communicate them in perfect English. Brilliant, this book really is brilliant.

I spend a lot of time trying to "translate" a lot of things, things I see on  the news, sometimes things people say on the TV whose beliefs are incomprehensible to me, Rosanne Barr is a good example, things I have personally seen and experienced in different parts of the country that are taken for granted there but not something I would ever choose to spend my time on otherwise. One feels, sometimes, always a traveler moving across strange planes, talking to people with whom one has nothing whatsoever in common...needing to translate all the time.

What's required in translation in the above situation or in any situation is a willingness to emphasize or communicate. We're losing that in this country, I think. We immediately fly into a defensive fury, we don't even try to see the other side. I love this book for showing me this.

 Translation requires a lens, a perspective. There is no translator alive without personal perspectives which govern what he or she sees in the text, and how he or she presents things. This is why there are hundreds of texts out there on Homer, why have a new one? Because new times present new understandings and new needs to communicate.

I love this quote by the great Argentinian author Jorge Luis Borges:

"The  original is unfaithful to the translation."

hahaha Think about that a minute.

Here's a perfect example, from Rose's story (the Without Wood) segment:

"She said if I listened to her later I would know what she knew; where true words come from, always from up high,  above everything else. And if I didn't listen to her, she said my ear would bend too easily to other people, all saying words that had no lasting meaning, because they came from the bottom of their hearts, where their own desires lived, a place where I could not belong."

Wow.

I love this segment. To me, in this and the other segments, things are coming full circle. I love the hints the author puts out (not carelessly) in each chapter. The repetition of certain phrases, and words. love what she's doing.

Rose says her mother Scar said, "My mother once told me why I was so confused all the time. She said I was without wood. Born without wood so that I listened to too many people. She knew this because once she had  almost become this way."

Here is a mother, still trying, to the best of her ability to help or protect her daughter who is getting divorced, based on what her mother experienced. But is the mother's experience, as traumatic as it was, valid in this case? For that matter are any of the prior experiences shown so far useful in what the daughters are going through? And are they ever?

BIG issues in this chapter. :)

Can  you help  us translate them?






BarbStAubrey

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I've only started the chapter but so far and from your post Ginny my take is that both generations are what we today call needy and want something they each think will make them feel better that can only be satisfied by the mother and for the mother can only be satisfied by the daughter. The mother's have a specific idea of what success looks like and for that matter so do the daughters and their mother's sure do not look or sound like success and yet, they will not fade into the background.

And yes, the mothers appear controlling, that would be typical of anyone experiencing sever childhood trauma regardless in China or Timbuktu - a book that really helps to understand what childhood trauma does to a person and how it affects them for life is 'Too Scared To Cry' -

One of the examples in the book is years ago, you may even remember - a bus driver in California drove a school bus into a deep hole that caused the bus to be buried and the children were trapped, buried alive for days with only the air in the bus - reminds us of the recent story of the boys in the cave - only they had with them an adult that had their best interest at heart - not a psycho who did this on purpose and died - it took the authorities days to even figure out what happened to the bus and then days to uncover them without burying them further. Doctors and therapists followed these children through adulthood and everyone of them made life harming choices and were affected even those who tried to forget. Some never spoke of the incident, some did all the things that was supposed to make for a happy life - but that bus 'crime' was over 30 years ago when the affects of trauma were only being examined much less understood.

Now the work with Veterans is furthering the work that was given the explanation of PTSD, first understood by therapists working with adults who as children were sexually abused - Sexual assault and domestic abuse is featured in each of the mothers’ personal histories and so, there is no way these mothers could possibly react to life except to control as best they can their surroundings and to attempt to assure their daughter's are kept safe by controlling as best they can the circumstances and the behavior of their daughters. It's a given - it comes with the territory.

Without a strong guidance for women, daughters are taken advantage of - we still do not give girls the training of how to take care of themselves except this crazy notion that all unwanted sex is from a stranger and even that is only the extreme abuse -

In our story we have the daughters being devalued because they are woman - Lena’s husband repeatedly denies Lena a raise, saying that it’d be awkward to reward his wife in front of other employees. She is not compensated for her work and ability to earn the company the most profit, she does what is expected and remains passive like a good little girls to maintain peace in her marriage. That imbalance of power ruins her and her marriage - she grows resentful of Harold’s unwillingness to listen and cherish her. That is control - the women attempt control but do not have that kind of power to control - That kind of control was used against the mothers and gave their mothers the traumatic experiences they endured.

This quote from the book reminds me immediately of the kids on the buried bus and of the lives of most women - the 'Me
Too' movement is showing us how, with all the women's lib there is all this that women go through into today - not just the girls the news likes to feature, who were locked in sheds, basements, dark rooms as 'sex slaves' but thousands and thousands of women who were silent and they are not wearing a hijab where we would expect women to be considered less than.

"All these years I kept my true nature hidden, running along like a small shadow so nobody could catch me. And because I moved so secretly now my daughter does not see me. She sees a list of things to buy, her checkbook out of balance, her ashtray sitting crooked on a straight table. And I want to tell her this: we are lost, she and I, unseen and not seeing, unheard and not hearing, unknown by others"

I'm thinking Ginny it is the same as this whole issue with Roseanne Barr - a circus - worthy of tabloid press - can you just imagine a Walter Cronkite or Peter Jennings or a David Brinkley going on and on about what Roseanne Barr had to say.  And then today, in this so called post women's movement, what man who has said as much or worse about another politician is paraded across the various news outlets and interviewed based solely on what they said in a peak. And what is really sad is that we women go along with this c---.

But over there nobody will say her worth is measured by the loudness of her husband’s own belch.

What I see in this book is women all in the same cage trying to get out but the power that keeps them caged is too great and so at times they fight each other rather than give in and say to each other I cannot protect you - I cannot get us out of this cage - we each have to find our way to cope and the mothers are saying, from their experience, which is their trauma speaking, if you, daughter, will do this and that, you will cope with less damage to yourself and less damage to the shared historical trauma that is the life of women who preceded you.

This story to me follows the story of Penelope, the wife the king of Ithaca, Odysseus - even upon his return HE tests her... unfortunately for many a woman her experience is based on the image we are all Calypso - if not, we would not have the "Me Too" movement. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

hats

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Bellamarie, I hope you enjoyed your luncheon with old friends. Your luncheon led my thoughts down another trail all of you have probably traveled already. All of the mothers have suffered through hard times coming through a war and moving to a new country while also beginning new families. While thinking about the feelings of the ladies, I read Ginny and Barb's posts. While Ginny's posts made my brain regurgitate and pop, Barb's posts brought me singularly back to "trauma."
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And yes, the mothers appear controlling, that would be typical of anyone experiencing sever childhood trauma regardless in China or Timbuktu - a book that really helps to understand what childhood trauma does to a person and how it affects them for life is 'Too Scared To Cry' -
I am very grateful for the book title. The title definitely provokes ideas without having seen the book itself. Unfortunately, I don't remember the bus incident which seems beyond horrible. One idea played again and again today in my head. This is the magic and power of friendships. One of the changes each woman here experiences is not letting go. They know now about loss of things and people. They have been to the altar of sacrifice. Rereading the Joy Luck Club is becoming more meaningful each day. There is the chance to reread about Suyuan Woo's war experiences, carrying the babies and so many other things causing her hands to bleed. Then, there is her horrible illness, a cerebral aneurysm. All of these extremes must have brought about great changes and problems with translation or communication with her family. So, I'm glad Ginny brought up the question about translation.
After all of this or during all of these experiences with her friends and family, Suyuan had the idea for a club. My idea was to have a gathering of four women, one for each corner of my mah jong table. I knew which women I wanted to ask. They were all young like me. Again, Ginny brings up the wonder and value of food. These women had the chance to share different foods with one another. I think they compared these meals to banquets. I love Amy Tan's descriptive words. So, I have to use caution in quoting.
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The hostess had to serve special dyansyin
foods to bring good fortune of all kinds -- dumplings shaped like sliver money ingots, long rice noodles for long life, boiled peanuts for conceiving sons, and of course, many good-luck oranges for a plentiful, sweet life.[/quote] Without becoming immigrants, perhaps, there would have never been a club with the theme of hope. For me, hope never stirs itself until there is a lack or a deep desire to have someone or something added to my life. Also, they might not have appreciated gathering female experiences.
I've read quite a few pages today and gone back again still wanting to read more but fatigue set in and I had to stop. There is the old saying so little time and so much to read. This is brought to mind because I believe Bellamarie also quoted an old saying or adage on another topic. I have many thoughts and all have gone from my head at the moment. Of all the mothers, Ying-Ying St. Clair seemed the most bitter? She really cranks out the complaints while visiting Harold and Lena. Yes, the marital arguments must have brought major change to Lena St. Clair's life. I liked Amy Tan's idea of making a biracial marriage part of the plot. That added the spice ginger to their relationship. No, I don't think it caused the failure of their marriage. I can't wait to learn about the
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peach blossom luck.
Clouds continue to hang over my mind about the meaning. There is also the change or changes a mother goes through if a daughter lives with a food disorder. Without my book, I can't remember the mother's name or the daughter's name. So much I have missed. I am realizing in a Family Saga like this one it is impossible to read it once without peeking over the pages again. By magic, other words spring to the forefront of the mind. The novel pushes me to wear their moccasins for a little while. This leads to jumping out of my comfort zone and into a more exotic one. Read that word "exotic" some where today.