The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion

[BarbStAubrey]

Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz (Welcome to our Discussion) A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton. “I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three Sultans Discussion Schedule: Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18 Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master Tuesday, September 25...........The Master Tuesday October 2...................The Dome - to page 256 Tuesday October 9...................The Dome - page 257 to 331 Tuesday October 16.................After the Master

Helpful Links for reading and watching

“People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques, not knowing, not seeing.”

• Mosque of Selim II, Edirne (includes naming and explaining all architectural parts of a Mosque)
• A (6 min) story of Suleiman the Magnificent.
• 16th Century Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal, the three 'Gun-Power Empires' (10 min)
• Harem - How the Harem functions and became a Power Center within the Sultan's Imperial government
• Seven part (approx. 15 min each) story of Suleiman the Magnificent
• Discovery Channel documentary (5 hour) The History of the Ottoman
• Sufism - Islamic Mysticism (6 min)
• Janissaries (2 min)
• Janissaries the elite corps of the Sultan
• Mimar Sinan (2 min)
• Sinan, a short bio with links to his accomplishments
• Elif Safak, author

Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey

[BarbStAubrey]

Janissary with Lion

Grand Vizir

[PatH]

So the great Suleimaniye Mosque is finished, and Jahan goes in, troubled and anxious.  He looks up, and the light, and a childhood memory, producce an epiphany, in which he feels something of the structure and purpose of things, and draws a little closer to the center of the universe.

I felt a tiny echo of this last week, when I looked at the dome of the Mosque of Selim II, Edirne, in Barb's link.  No childhood memories, but a feeling if the wonderful lightness of the structure, and that it was somehow very important and significant.  Those domes were constructed with purpose.

[BarbStAubrey]

Pat It must feel awe inspiring to be in one of these mosques or church in Rome with a domed ceiling - yes, an epiphany, perfect -  my imagination is sensing the wonder and how small you must feel in one of these buildings with such a huge dome overhead.

I remember reading years ago how people thought the sky was a dome that when it rained the dome leaked and so the fear of rain that it may rip open the sky/dome and all would drown - I wonder when that type of thinking changed - I'm just wondering if the early domed ceiling in the Hagia Sophia was constructed with that kind of thinking about the universe - surely by the time Sinan was building no longer did they see the sky as a dome.  Although, Galileo had a rough time and he was born in Rome mid sixteenth century.   

[bellamarie]

October 1st!!!!  Every year when September 1st comes around I think I have endorphins release inside me that makes my five senses heightened, my taste buds come alive for pumpkin spice everything!!!  My smell is so sharp, I actually can smell Fall in the air, along with burning leaves. I love the feel of the crisp mornings, and seeing the colors of the leaves changing and falling to the ground, signaling change is on the way, excites me, as does hearing the kids playing in the piles of leaves.  Fall time is euphoric for me. 

I'm not big on Halloween.  I tell my hubby, kids and grandkids it's my least favorite holiday to celebrate.  I decorate the house on September 1st with autumn things, and hold off on the Halloween things until October.  We always go to my son and daughter in law's house to pass out their candy, while they take the grandkids trick or treating.  I find it to be the most boring 2 hours I have to get through. 

Okay, getting back to the book.  I am now behind in my reading since we had such a busy week end, and I had my luncheon with the high school girls this morning.  I came home pooped out, and just laid on the couch and relaxed til dinner.  I think it's early to bed, and will tackle the next section in the morning.

PatH., I do feel the domes are built for a purpose.  If I remember correctly when they were in Rome, their was a discussion about the lighting from the domes, and the significance of it.  I'm too tired to look it up now, maybe tomorrow.  Domes remind me of prisms, and how can you not be amazed at the colors that bounce off of a crystal, or beveled piece of glass, catching the sun's rays.  I am always marveled at it.  No epiphany as yet though.

[BarbStAubrey]

Early Autumn sipping Sherbet overlooking the mountains of Turkey near Rize

[BarbStAubrey]

Bellamarie funny how Halloween has become as big as Christmas with the decorations - my take is that it is not as associated with a religion and so everyone, just like everyone celebrates Mother's day - but after awhile it all does seem silly and as you suggest, boring - when there are little kids around it was fun but even that is no longer the knocking on doors in the dark with so many kooks - I must say though I do like reading the Headless Horseman with ol' Ichabod Crane and if the cartoon movie version is on TV I like to watch it.

Domes remind you of prisms - like to hear more about that Bellamarie

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow - was this turn of events a surprise to you as you read this section -  into the dungeon for Jahan and lo and behold with him are the Gypsies (Roma people) he danced for to get their female elephant to satisfy Chota 

Found this on a site from facebook

" The Roma on the Balkans did not live isolated from their cultural and historical surroundings; on the contrary, they were an integral part of it and consequently were greatly influenced by the various Balkan peoples. Significant numbers of Roma have remained in the Balkans for centuries, others migrated from there throughout the world in past and modern times, taking with them inherited Balkan cultural models and traditions. The Ottoman Empire dominated the Balkans for over five centuries and made a distinct impression on the culture and history of the region. Thus the role of the Ottoman Empire is a key factor in the process of formation and development of the Roma people."

Oh dear it looks like when Jahan does get out and meets with the married Princess Mihrimah he 'covets his neighbor's wife'

[bellamarie]

Oh my!  I am just at the part where Jahan has been imprisoned and Balaban is offering to make him family.  Once again, someone comes to the aide of Jahan unexpectedly.  Don't know why, but Jahan's imprisonment made me think of Paul being imprisoned, and Luke would come to visit with him and take messages back to their people to not lose faith.  I loved the recent movie Paul, Apostle of Christ.

Barb, 

Domes remind you of prisms - like to hear more about that Bellamarie

It's all about the refraction of light through the glass, be it prisms or domes.  Either will cast beautiful different colors and hues.  Both are fascinating to me.

Without getting too scientific, here is a short video on how the electromagnetic waves with different wave lengths work with light refraction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGqsi_LDUn0

Here are some different types of prism/domes.  Magnificent!!!

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=how+is+a+dome+like+a+prism&chips=q:tensegrity+dome,g_3:architecture&usg=AI4_-kQw8peZFCZtqLx_NCG2D765NOP7IQ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiY8PCJm-jdAhXHy4MKHVsfCZIQ4lYIKigA&biw=1229&bih=578&dpr=1.56

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow Bellamarie - I had no idea that a prism and dome had so much in common - in your second link I clicked on a photo and visited the site where the photo originated and found this wonder - all about Domes. tra la

http://www.wikiwand.com/en/Dome

I am having so much fun reading this book learning so many things I had no clue about and would never have been curious about - I do not know about y'all but I am having the time of my life - the story is almost secondary although Jahan's adventures have me on edge as if reading a detective story waiting for the next shoe to drop. I think part of what Shafak has done is to include the realizations that Jahan has when he knows he messed up.

[BarbStAubrey]

Never heard this - have any of you?

"The most well-known legend regarding Gypsies is the one about the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. In this legend Gypsies are described as a people who made nails used in Jesus crucifixion."

[Jonathan]

What a glorious book discussion. Such  fabulous links. Domes, domes, domes. St. Peter's in Rome to the Apache wigwam in America. One could feel at the centre of the universe. Isn't architecture thought of as the queen of the sciencs? Or is it the queen of the arts?

[BarbStAubrey]

Queen of something Jonathan - architecture and building appears to touch ever aspect of our lives - farming and ranching may feed us but even they need storage, and preparation and cooking that required architecture and now we are leaning that includes a city's water works.

• What do you y'all think - is safe and plentiful water the calling card to urbanization - Do all roads leading to a city because of access to pure water or do you think that other influences created a city that then required water - Water is still a topic for most large cities - which came first - the large population making the most of the available resources or the access to fresh water? In other words is the Grand Vizier correct in his assessment?
• During the Holocaust we had massive numbers of Gypsies condemned with the Jewish population to the gas chambers - do you have an opinion why Gypsies are, to this day, considered a group that is 'less' than those who have the social power to run companies and governments and join, as a respected member, a community?
• Do we know if coveting thoughts about the wife of another is as much an Islamic 'no no' as it is a Christian 'no no' -  Does Islam have a set of laws memorized as the major 'no no's' of Islam and if so do the Islamic laws say anything about coveting the wife of another? 
• Is the argument of "...faith true. But also with knowledge." the argument over science versus faith? How was this argument handled in Rome?

[BarbStAubrey]

Wow - the Holy Man Al-Khidr is their green man --- http://khidr.org/

[bellamarie]

This book has me coming and going, upside down and inside out.  This section is so packed with so many different things happening, I can barely keep track.  I got my pen and paper out just to try to remember some points I want to mention.  I woke up thinking about this book, and thought to myself, either this author is brilliant, trying to use scripture and parables as hidden messages, and a bit on the eccentric side with so many thoughts packed into one section of this book, or I am just overwhelmed, and lack the ability to see all these things actually taking place and being believable.  I feel like just going to pick up my book leaves my mind in a fog.  Where to begin?

I am up to pg.  226,  Jahan has recovered from his illness, been released from the prison, has been brought to the Princess Mihrimah's massion, sits on silk cushions, eating caviar, met Alisha her daughter who she has told all Jahan's stories to, and has also, once again, stood before Sultan Suleiman and the Grand Vizier, along with Sinan to discuss the bridges and water. 

I have said many times how it appears Jahan seems to be in the right place at the right time, or the wrong place at the wrong time, and always has an unexpected person to help him in his most needed times.  The gypsies have come through for him once again.  Refusing to leave the prison until he was released.  Now that really seemed a bit too far fetched for me.  I'm beginning to shake my head and say.....REALLY? 

Anyway, on pg. 207 While standing before Sultan Suleiman and the Grand Vizier, Sinan is being questioned about the reasons for the need to build the aqueducts and bridges.

The Shayh al-Islam, Ebussuud Efendi, his face as unreadable as a faded manuscript, spoke first.  "In our glorious city there are bridges from the time of the infidels that have not survived.  They collapsed because they were built without true faith.  Do you agree?"

Sinan took a deep breath. "God gave us a mind and told us to use it well.  Many ancient bridges are in ruins because they were not built upon firm ground.  When we raise a bridge we make sure the water is shallow, the earth is solid, the tides favourable.  Bridges are built with faith, true.  But also with knowledge."

This reminded me of the parables Jesus told in Matthew 13:1-58

1 Later that same day Jesus left the house and sat beside the lake. 2 A large crowd soon gathered around him, so he got into a boat. Then he sat there and taught as the people stood on the shore. 3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one: “Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds. 4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them. 5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow. 6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn’t have deep roots, they died. 7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants. 8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted! 9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand.”

Then in verses 36- 49
36Then, leaving the crowds outside, Jesus went into the house. His disciples said, “Please explain to us the story of the weeds in the field.” 37 Jesus replied, “The Son of Man is the farmer who plants the good seed. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the Kingdom. The weeds are the people who belong to the evil one. 39 The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil. The harvest is the end of the world, and the harvesters are the angels. 40 “Just as the weeds are sorted out and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the world. 41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will remove from his Kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 And the angels will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in their Father’s Kingdom. Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand! 44 “The Kingdom of Heaven is like a treasure that a man discovered hidden in a field. In his excitement, he hid it again and sold everything he owned to get enough money to buy the field. 45 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a merchant on the lookout for choice pearls. 46 When he discovered a pearl of great value, he sold everything he owned and bought it! 47 “Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like a fishing net that was thrown into the water and caught fish of every kind. 48 When the net was full, they dragged it up onto the shore, sat down, and sorted the good fish into crates, but threw the bad ones away. 49 That is the way it will be at the end of the world. The angels will come and separate the wicked people from the righteous,

pg. 208  the Sultan raised his hand and said, "The Chief Royal Architect is right.  Water is a charity and must be distributed generously:  I shall give water to the people and I shall pay my workers."

Brilliant!  The comparisons going on here between scripture and this author's historical fictional writing. 

pg. 209  On the way back they passed through marble corridors, the master and the apprentice.  The elation that came over them was so intense that they found it hard to stay silent.  Jahan knew that not only his heart had been pounding; his master, too, had been scared.  Once again, Sinan found himself in a tight spot when all the wanted to do was his work.  Once again, as though aided by an obscure well-wisher, he had been reprieved.  Perhaps he had a protector, Jahan thought, a mysterious patron who interfered on his behalf each time thing got too thorny, an invisible guardian angel always by his side . . .

Seems to me, Jahan, himself, has his own guardian angel watching over him as well.

So the building is to begin, let the water flow to the people like milk and honey...... not so fast.

Remember what Jesus said.... "The enemy who planted the weeds among the wheat is the devil."

Seems the workers have slowed down with trepidation of an apparition, thinking there is a saint among them, and with sabotage going on, it seems the devil himself is at hand.

pg. 222 Until this point their master had overcome every obstacle, no matter how great or daunting.  Yet this was different.  How could Sinan possible defeat a ghost?

[Jonathan]

Wow, indeed!!! I'm overwhelmed, Barb, and Bellamarie. What a story. What a fascinating link to Al Khidr and then an account of Jesus and his parable of the sewer and the seed. My most treasured posession is my mother's bible. The water of life, she would tell us. At other times she would entertain us with stories. Sometimes thrilling ones, about gysies. How they were inclined to kidnap children. But they were also fantastic fiddlers. Always a good time to be had in their company. Thieves by nature. Like our hero.

I think I've found a book for a later discussion. City of Djinns, A Year in Delhi, by William Dalrymple. We seem to be finding them everywhere in Istanbul. So, this is also a ghost story.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh yes, Bellamarie I agree - it is like being on a roller coaster as the various incidents follow each other - sometimes out of the blue - it is almost as if reading several chapters is too much to take in with so much change in the story - and the analogies - Shafak has a gift, she uses just enough sentence construction or description of an event to tap into our stored resources. The biblical quotes you use Bellamarie, fit right in don't they and again, I see the Sultan having to be like Salomon deciding between the fears and maybe jealousy of the Grand Vizier versus the forward looking and scientifically proven thinking of Sinan.

That balance between faith or tradition and science has kept society on edge with every new discovery. Those on the side of faith and tradition during 16th century Ottoman history mock the scientists as if the scientist/architect was attempting to be as their greatest mythological holy man, Al-Khidr where as, today it is the scientists who have pushed the envelope to question, in fact no longer even question to make the statement, there is no God. 

After the fact it seems so simple - how water is found and measured and in Rome the trial of Galileo seems ridiculous, how could the church fathers be so narrow minded and yet, they must have felt the same drain emotionally as we do today when folks, like the recently deceased Steven Hawkins said, there is no God and hundreds of thousands agreed with him. 

The aspect of Jahan's presentation to the Sultan while he was hunting that had me squirming was when Jahan makes a pitch for the bridge that was not included in Sinan's plan or drawings - talk about a bridge to far - that made me uncomfortable and yet, I can see that is probably how progress is achieved - rrrhrar feels to me like scratching fingernails on a blackboard. I guess it shows I am not a risk taker in the scheme of a working hierarchy - know your place - ah so...

I guess it fits - was never really rebellious - my approach is, if they would just listen to another side and use their reason to balance things we could move along - and of course after nearly 40 years in Real Estate I know that is not true - that all reason ever does is justify an emotional decision - oh dear, I still blanch at pushing the envelope or making a scene to make things happen. Wait a minute, no need to question my approach - it fits 100% with my Enneagram - I'm a 5, the Researcher. "Fives are motivated by a desire to understand. To them, gathering knowledge and mastering information are not just interesting endeavors but keys to survival." And so differently, where Jahan may be a learner he is also a risk taker.

Talk about risk taking - what did you think of Jahan taking the Chief White Eunuch's beloved stallion - I was waiting for something terrible to happen to the horse.  At minimum it would be stolen as they were robbed on their way back from Rome.

[BarbStAubrey]

What a great definition of the Bible from your mother Jonathan - The water of life - before TV it sure watered a lot of lives where often the only book in a house was the Bible and libraries were few.

Interesting how we can remember the stories told to us as children about folks different from ourselves - I remember my father's mother telling us about Gypsies - and yes, the typical stories of how they would steal and not work and live check to jowl in small hidden places - they almost sounded to me more like leprechauns or trolls having never seen a Gypsy - later from some childhood reading, I have no memory of the book, I thought they were fabulous horsemen - Did not know they were known for their fiddle playing - I always associated great 'fiddle' playing with Jewish folks and mournful fiddle playing with mountain people.

Need to go look up City of Djinns, A Year in Delhi, by William Dalrymple - you always do come up with great books to consider - I did end up getting the book you talked about in the Spring about Bells - it evidently is an old book that has been republished as a copy - have not gotten too far into it but it sure brings an appreciation for bells.

[PatH]

So many things to comment on in this section, I don't know where to begin.  Bellamarie points out how many people help Jahan when he gets in trouble.  Why do they?  There must be something appealing about him.  Later, I can believe his single-minded concentration on his work helps.

Jahan finally realizes just how much, pages 243-4.  Sangram, one of the first people he met among the animal tenders, knew all along that Jahan had been an imposter, and hadn't told, feeling sorry for J.

Jahan bit his lip.  How bizarre it was.  While he had been running after things that were never going to happen and resenting life for gifts it had denied him, there had been people supporting him without drawing attention to themselves. They had given and expected nothing in return.

[BarbStAubrey]

As you, Pat and Bellamarie note there are many who help Jahan and from the description of the times it appears without these angles of help he would be dead a long time ago.

You are ahead of me Pat - I am only on page 229  and so a bit later I can ask more about what  you see in Sangram's kindness to Jahan

A quicky - makes sense and explains how many Cathedrals in Italy and Spain especially the street adjacent to the Cathedrals are filled with souvenir  shops - I bet they started out being just as Mihrimah suggests for the mosque to honor her husband- there should be a row of vaulted shops to provide revenue for the mosque.

Interesting - a sublet message that anything built or I guess any object owned - it is not just the initial cost to obtain or build the item but revenue is needed to maintain the item.  hmm with all this downsizing and simplifying - getting rid of 'stuff' - with less 'stuff' less funds are needed to maintain it.

Shafak even includes money management and economics in her novel - what a mind... 

[BarbStAubrey]

the noble type of kindness that is Sinan reminds me of St. John Chrysostom who is from that part of the world and lived at least 1000 years before the birth of Sinan - at the risk of trying to turn these Islamic greats into examples of Christian faith - like all of us we can only see the greatness in comparison to what we know and for sure according to this story Sinan had a respect for all Religions - here is an excerpt about the life of St. John Chrysostom.

After receiving the best education which Constantinople could offer, St. John entered a monastic community. After eight years of prayer and austerities in a damp cave, he returned to the city where he worked as an assistant to the bishop. His first duty was to feed the poor and teach the gospel.

St. John became an eloquent preacher (“Chrysostom” means golden-mouthed), and he became famous as the mightiest orator in Byzantine Christianity. Great crowds flocked to hear his inspired sermons. Eventually, against his wishes, he was elected Patriarch of Constantinople.

Upon election, he stripped the excess and luxury from the bishop’s palace and sold it all to establish hospitals and hostels for the poor. His preaching against ostentation and the lack of charity among the rich made fierce enemies.

He was eventually deposed and sent into exile in Armenia where he wrote hundreds of letters and commentaries on Scripture and contemporary subjects. No other Greek father left so extensive a literary legacy.

He became a revered authority on the content of faith, which makes his insights about creation important for establishing the authenticity of ecological concern in Church ministry. In Antioch, where he was born, he was given the title “Great Teacher of the Earth,”

[Jonathan]

Barb, it's interesting that you should bring up St. John Chrysostom (350-407). He certaintly sounds very inspirational, perhaps the Billy Graham of his day. I've found a serman of his, preached on the text from Ehesians 5:22-24.


'Wives, be in subjection unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, as Christ also is the head of the Church: being Himself the Saviour of the body. But as the Church is subject to Christ, so let the wives also be to their husbands in everything.'

The modern editor has this advice for the reader:

'While a superficial look at the text for the sermon that follows might provoke dismay in some modern readers, it is a fitting testimony to John's powers to see what deep truths he has extracted from a few verses of Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians.' (Tongues of Angels, John F. Thornton & Katharine Washburn)

It's a great sermon, but would never be preached now.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ah yes, but then Jonathan there is so much change in the nearly 2000 years since Paul wrote from jail to the Ephesians and over 1700 years since St. John Chrysostom preached based on the traditions held for 1600 of those 1700 years, that women had a very limited  purpose - to bear children and care for the needs of men and their family. 

This break in tradition is why Roxelana, the wife of Suleiman the Magnificent was so unique. Since the sixteenth century, gradually, men in mostly western or far eastern nations have learned, women do have a brain equally as capable as men's brain and women are able to go toe to toe physically in many work and play situations, so the hierarchy of power under the guise of administering care with ownership no longer fits. 

Interesting this is along the lines of inquiry among the Tao group I meet with - we realized so much of religion is based on behavior that only needs guidelines when there is more than one - this thought prompted us to look at religions, not exclusively as an inward journey towards God but rather, as an organized system directing social behavior.

Therefore, as society grows and matures changes happen as the society becomes more advanced with added learning. To be relevant and have half a chance of directing energy to a person's inner spiritual life, religion cannot dwell on rules that affected the past without also growing and changing.

Bottom line our question became, Why be 'Good'? Being good we are told pleases God but really it effects how folks can live peacefully with each other and create community - Then the question became, 'what does 'Good' mean when various social groups have very different moral values? Questioning ethics and religious codes of behavior points to religions controlling society including the leaders, the Emperors, Kings, Sultans etc. equally as the poorest, youngest and oldest within a religious affiliated society.

Interesting as we read of Eunuchs and the Janissary - all non-Muslims because, Islam does not allow some of the practices required to have Eunuchs and a well trained fighting force.  We talk about the evils of Slavery and yet, not only are slaves common in the Ottoman Empire as in every nation, reading I learned Christians in Africa performed the surgery required to create Eunuchs and that was a killing field - Surgery had not advanced to stop bleeding - The only solution was to bury these boys in the desert sand up to their waist and hope that the bleeding would stop - over half the boys died. 

Today, in our own nation - public prayer and the power of religious leaders may not have been democratic according to our Constitution and the battle between faith and science may have been as fierce as ever but, the loss of the moral codes that religions advocate is the price we are paying - Madalyn Murray O'Hair did us no favor.

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, 

My most treasured possession is my mother's bible. The water of life, she would tell us.

The water of life. Without water, we could not survive in this world.  I love your mother's choice of words describing her Bible.

The ONLY book I recall ever to be in our home growing up was our family Bible.  My mother would sit with all of us on the couch and show us the pictures, and talk to us about our faith.  It had a lasting impression on me, and I too repeated this with our three children.  Today, I am the person I am, and remain steadfast in my faith largely because of my mother reading to us from our Bible.

PatH., 

There must be something appealing about him.

 

I have to wonder if it is appealing, or dumb luck, fate, generosity, pay it forward, some seeing a young boy and wanting to help him, and now that he is becoming a young man, it seems that guardian angel he speaks of that is with Sinan, is also following him as well.

Can it be believable, when an author seems to have this character constantly saved in the most dire situations Jahan has faced, and always has a saving grace?  It is starting to wear a little thin with me.

[Jonathan]

'It is starting to wear a little thin with me.'

For me too, Bellamarie. Or are we missing all the action? Why does she make Jahan the hero of her story, the twelve-year-old from India? Of course he's a hundred at the end. Oh well, there's some interesting romance. Roxelana is in the background pulling all the wires, and the reader is asked, what builds the better bridge - science or faith? One can't afford to offend the powers that be. Even an author must be careful.

All your posts leave me with much to think about.

[PatH]

Jahan isn't twelve in much of our story.  It took me a while to realize just how much the story jumps back and forth, and I still don't have it all straight.

[BarbStAubrey]

Oh dear - and then on the other side of the coin is that he did spend time in the dungeon - sure the gypsies were there to help him through it but come on - drawing on the wall with pooh - holy hannah - if that is the work of an angel saving him I sure do not want to be introduced to that angel.

This story is as if Jahan was a real character and we are reading his bio - I'm thinking most bios include how folks added to a life and how during big controversies retold in the bio, the author tells how he/she either overcame or were helped by someone/others - can anyone remember reading a novel where the entire story was told through the one character - I guess A Man in Moscow did that -

aha maybe that is the message - in times fraught with danger and death those who last only last with the help of others -

hmm thinking on it, the floods in Houston were a great example because we could see what happened on the TV news how ordinary folks help each other during times of danger.  I'm thinking of the many times when driving and someone is in trouble we stop and if, like my son and all his boys who have a pickup and they are pulling cows or other vehicles out of a ditch or pond or we're helping a mom in the supermarket because her little one won't stop crying or when the IRS was taking everything from Willie Nelson everyone in Austin attended that sell off and we gave what we purchased back to Willie or or or - I think it is human nature to help folks and we seldom decide to help or not based on how someone looks - you just do it... without even thinking... you just do it.

At the risk of sounding like Pollyanna or little miss sunshine I can see and am ok with Jahan receiving help at times during his life - he sure is not perfect and he does experience some harsh and scary times especially those weeks or couple of months in a dungeon where he lost so much weight.

One thing for sure, after he was in the dungeon he grew in assertiveness - before, I do not see him demanding what he wanted and needed and after, not only does he demand he be taken to a bath but seems to have grown in his ability to stand up for himself.

[BarbStAubrey]

Last night on PBS there was a whole bit including the author who wrote I am Red - remember the book was discussed here but I did not join that discussion - evidently the story also too took place during the sixteenth century Istanbul.  Sounds like some of the same issues we are reading about but from the viewpoint of a artist. - Did you see the PBS program or did you read I am Red - can you share with us anything you remember about the story in that book that coincides with this book?

Ah yes, Pat it does go from even to event quickly without a lot of before and after - like separate threads in a woven piece of cloth - the telling reminds me of a family member who shares around the table bits and pieces of their life story - I wonder if we will find as we read there is a method to the madness of not telling this story in chronological order.

I wonder if the story is really about the building projects and Jahan telling the story is reminded during each project of something in his life that better painted the picture of what happened during the project being discussed - I do not know just guessing - because yes, it does jump around doesn't it.

Bellamaire really what a special memory of your mom reading to you from the Bible - that was strong stuff wasn't it to hear during childhood but then coming from your mother all would be like honey going down. Did you have any special Bible stories you enjoyed and wanted your mother to read again?

[BarbStAubrey]

In between all these phone calls I did need to share Jonathan I did look up the  book you suggested - wow - had no idea that Dalai had that many cities built on top of each other and the area is part of history for thousands of years - it does look like a book to read doesn't it - with India being in the news so often and watching again on PBS the The Jewel in the Crown and Indian Summer the next curiosity would be the long history of places in India... for now, I am so behind in my reading pile - I am almost glad we are to have an extra cold winter - reading time.

Talk about cold winter - one of the phone calls was from my daughter - my grandson is with his friend on a road trip across the nation - both North Carolina boys so driving on ice and snow is not their strongest suit but they both have had some experience - well they are in Montana and they hit a patch of ice and their vehicle rolled and rolled - the car is totaled - all their camping gear etc. strewn all over the road - except of headaches they are both OK and they both have friends from collage all over.

Turned out not too far away are two collage friends - one teaching at the University in Bozeman, Montana and another who lives within an hour's drive of their accident that they had no idea lived in Montana is coming to their rescue - after putting out a call for help on Twitter they had this kind of help even in the empty spaces of Montana  - one has an empty room they can live in for a few a week and the other came and drove them to the friend with the empty room - it appears not on their schedule but they get a close up and personal view of Montana while Cole, whose liability insurance does not cover his vehicle, an old reliable that was worth only about 4K - so instead of money spent to rent a vehicle to get to Seattle where Ty, Cade's brother lives, Cole has decided to shop and replace his vehicle - he will need one when they are back home and they do want to drive down the coast of California to visit a close childhood friend living now in LA. so they too are learning that all the planning in the world and as Burn's wrote, The best laid schemes o' mice an' men  

[bellamarie]

Oh Barb, how awful to hear of your grandson's accident.  I would keep a close watch on them for the next few days for concussions.  I do hope they at least went to a nearby hospital to get checked out.  Good to know there are people in this world who could come to their aide.

I had a bit of a scare myself today.  My sister called to tell me her granddaughter was walking in their small town park this morning with her 8 month old baby boy strapped to her body in one of those cloth carriers Moms use.  A woman approached her and told her how cute her baby was.  She then attempted to pull the baby from the carrier and said, "Give me that baby!"  My niece fought her off and called 911.  Before the police got there the abductor's mother showed up and said this was her daughter who is Bi-Polar and has been off her medication.  She said she slipped out of the house when the mother was not looking.  The police came and took the woman to the nearest mental health hospital, she will remain there for evaluation.  I told my sister no matter what, she needs to file charges for assault and attempted abduction of her baby.  This is a small town in rural Michigan.  She was just walking the park trail with her little baby boy, early in the morning.  What has this world come to? 

[bellamarie]

PatH., 

It took me a while to realize just how much the story jumps back and forth, and I still don't have it all straight.

Hmmm.... I have not noticed the story out of chronological order.  In this section Jahan must be in his teens, and approaching his early twenties, since he has just lost his virginity at the bawdy house.  Also, the Princess has progressed in age, married, and now has three children of her own. 

Jonathan, 

Or are we missing all the action?  Why does she make Jahan the hero of her story, the twelve-year-old from India?

I don't think we are missing any action.  He does not appear to be twelve years old throughout this entire section, as I pointed out, he is in his teens and we can see how the author is progressing him, the Princess and even Sinan.  Is Jahan really "a hero" in this book?  So far, I have seen him be brave at times, but not sure I would go as far as saying he is heroic.  At this point of the book, I never even considered there was a hero.  Hmmmm....

[BarbStAubrey]

OH oh oh Bellamarie how absolutely terrifying - and you really do not know if their excuse was real of not - Oh my - I'm including your family in my prayers...

It appears we are all having our time reacting with this novel - the story is hitting all sorts of buttons within us - bringing out all sorts of memories in our own lives - there is a kind of jerkiness to the tales, one on top of the other and so I can see how for some of us it is not as easy to follow however, we are all doing well - very well - especially considering we knew so little about this area of the world, the culture, the history, the wars, religion or the arts.

It is interesting isn't it that the author chose a boy from India to tell the story of the Ottoman Empire in the sixteenth century - I wonder if it has something to do with where elephants used in war came from - several have shared they knew of war elephants because of Hannibal's crossing the Alps - I wonder where Hannibal's elephants came from? Surely no elephant is native to Mongolia or China, but maybe the Ayutthaya Kingdom which was a Siamese kingdom - hopefully before the story is finished we can dope out why a "twelve-year-old from India" was made "the hero of her story"

And yes, not sure he is a hero but surely the protagonist - I'm thinking that Sinan is a greater example of a hero and for sure the elephant appears to act heroically - maybe it has to do with how we each define hero - often the one that is set as central casting is called the hero unless he is a real Villon.

Notice how consistent through out the story are buildings - during each happening the buildings or housing for the characters is described - from the building in the first bit when the knock to the door came as the wind blew one night to the description of voluptuous tents overlooking battles during war - even the trip was in housing of sorts that rode the high seas. Hmm I wonder, maybe it is the various expression of architecture that is holding this story together. Questions like, do we or do we not build a tower to protect the bridge had new meaning if architecture is holding together all the tales of those who cross paths with Jahan.   

Yes Pat, I read on pages 243 and 244 how Sangram knew but now I have to go back and re-read the story Jahan told Sangram when he first arrived - there is so much going on and so many events that it is like, that was so long ago and since we even had Jahan tell stories of his journey to Istanbul to Mihrimah, I have lost what the differences were in his stories.

Evidently the "advisor Feridun Beg who convinced" the new Sultan "that is was fine to let the multitude have a bit of fun" is a real person.

FERİDUN AḤMED BEG (FEREYDŪN AḤMAD BAYG), ʿABD-AL-QĀDER, Ottoman secretary, administrator, head of the chancery, and author. A protégé of the famous grand vizier Moḥammad Pasha Ṣoqollū, Feridun Beg also distinguished himself at the siege of Szigetvár (1566) and was subsequently promoted to the posts of secretary of state and chancellor.

[BarbStAubrey]

Found this bit - answers some questions we may have about the various titles for Suleiman the Magnificent.  In the east, he is remembered as Suleiman the Lawgiver.

“Sultan of the Ottomans, Allah’s deputy on earth, Lord of the Lords of this world, Possessor of men’s necks, King of believers and unbelievers, King of Kings, Emperor of the East and the West, Majestic Caesar, Emperor of the Chakans of great authority, Prince and Lord of the most happy constellation, Seal of victory, Refuge of all the people in the whole entire world, the shadow of the almighty dispensing quiet on the Earth.”

Wow - OK here is the breakdown:

"The first title - “Allah’s deputy” implies his supreme Islamic authority without overstepping the mark (the word ‘Islam’ means ‘one who submits to God).

The “possessor of necks’ harks back to his father Selim’s practice of beheading even senior officials; anyone who displeased the sultan could expect to be beheaded for certain crimes.

The next few titles are unexpectedly Roman. The Ottomans were aware that when they conquered Constantinople (in essence, the Eastern Roman Empire) the titles of “emperor” and “Caesar” still had importance. Claiming to be ”Emperor of the East and West” was not only an exaggeration, but also a direct challenge to the authority of Rome which, at this point, was hopelessly outclassed by the Ottomans.

“King of Kings” may sound a little biblical, but that’s only because the Gospels took the title from the Persian emperors’ Shahenshah, literally, ‘king of kings’.  So, again, the Ottomans are challenging a major rival, but this time it’s in the east, the Safavid Persians.

The next few titles are little more than showing off, but then we come to “Refuge of all the people in the whole entire world”, which shows that the sultans were well aware that their empire was multi-cultural and multi-religious, with Christians, Jews, Muslims and others all living together, not necessarily in harmony, but much better than anywhere else at the time. The ejection of the Jews and Muslims from Spain was still fresh in the minds of those living in the first half of the 16th century.

Only two of Suleiman’s military campaigns failed; he swept through everything else before him. When he wasn’t in the saddle, he was sitting in his opulent palace in the largest city in Europe. His empire stretched for hundreds, if not thousands, of miles in all directions. If anyone should be called ‘magnificent’, Suleiman fitted the bill perfectly."

[bellamarie]

Thanks Barb for the info on the various titles.

And yes, not sure he is a hero but surely the protagonist - I'm thinking that Sinan is a greater example of a hero and for sure the elephant appears to act heroically - maybe it has to do with how we each define hero - often the one that is set as central casting is called the hero unless he is a real Villon.

I was thinking the same thing, if there is a hero in this story, so far, I see it more to be Sinan or Chota.  But as of this far into the book, I'm not sure I have seen true heroic acts.  But then I suppose riding an elephant into war is pretty brave.  Chota has certainly done some pretty amazing things.

[Jonathan]

What fun. What a lively discussion. And what a book. Shaharazade would have been envious. And it's only after one has turned the last page that one realizes what one missed along the way.

Jahan not a hero? Why is everyone helpful and friendly? Except the Grand
Vizier, Mihrimah's husband, Who had him thrown into that vile  dungeon, the Fortress of Seven Towers. In a fit of jealousy?

Wouldn't the rescue of the baby from the burning building make him a hero? Or the resue of the bookseller' entire inventory, with Chota's help?

Want to read more about Istanbul? Read Orhan Pamuk, especially Istanbul: Memories and the City, beautifully illustrated with historic photographs.

Indian Summer on PBS? How did I miss that? Thanks Barb. I
have the book. Alex Von Tunzelmann is a great historian. I'm about to begin her other book: Red Heat: Conspiracy, Murder, an the Cold War in the Caribbean.

[bellamarie]

Oh Jonathan, how ever could I have forgotten about Jahan and Chota, rescuing the baby from the burning house.  Shame on me.  I have been so busy these past few days, I read very quickly, and feel like I need to go back over some pages.  YES!  Indeed Jahan was heroic!   

[BarbStAubrey]

This is for you Jonathan...

[bellamarie]

Happy Canadian Thanksgiving, Jonathan.  So do you cook for today, or do you go to a family members house?

[BarbStAubrey]

I do not know about y'all but I am anxious to find out what or who is behind all these accidents - I think I will start to read ahead - has everyone finished this first half of the Dome? We may think about moving along starting Monday but do not want to rush y'all - I can read ahead and wait to share my thoughts as other's have who had to read the entire book since they had to return it last week already.

[Jonathan]

Thanks, Barb.

I'm blown away everytime I log on and pause to admire the magnificent cover. Here we are at the court of Suleiman the Magnficent and the story is all about that little guy who is in danger of being trampled by that big beast (Mihrimah's term for him). A most unusual story. An old man's memories, architecturally structered, in the form of a literary mosque. There's no other way to describe it. I hope that's not ireverrant.

The ending is a blast. Hang on to your hat.