Author Topic: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion  (Read 33274 times)

Jonathan

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #200 on: October 06, 2018, 03:55:59 PM »


Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz
(Welcome to our Discussion)

A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton.

“I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three Sultans


Discussion Schedule:
  • Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
  • Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master
  • Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
  • Tuesday October 2...................The Dome - to page 256
  • Sunday October 7....................The Dome - page 257 to 331
  • Thursday October 11................After the Master





Curious, too, that the old man's memory is a bit shaky, but gets a lot of help from the narrator.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #201 on: October 06, 2018, 04:34:23 PM »
Ok Jonathan sounds like you have finished reading the entire book - not sure where Pat and Bellamarie are in their reading - I am assuming that Frybabe and Callie finished reading the entire book since they had to get their copy back to their respective libraries.

And so we are going to move up the remaining pages of this section called, The Dome and lets see if we need the entire week or not but if not we may even move up that last section to the end of this coming week

Sorry Jonathan your post is going to be at the bottom since the first post of after ever 30-40 pages is for the heading - so the heading will be inserted in your post.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #202 on: October 06, 2018, 10:33:48 PM »
Barb, I have not read ahead, but I am okay with moving up the reading schedule.  I will begin reading the next section of The Dome tomorrow. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #203 on: October 07, 2018, 01:33:41 PM »
I'm on target, having finished the first half of The Dome on schedule, have more to say, which can easily be fed in while we're reading.

I'm currently in Portland, will be flying back to Bethesda Tuesday, so won't be much of a presence then, but can be around most of the rest of the time.

PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #204 on: October 07, 2018, 02:07:40 PM »
The first sentences of The Dome impressed me:

Quote
Jahan would always remember 1562 as the year of happiness.  Everyone had one such year in their lives, he believed.  It grew, it blossomed, and, just as he started to think it would always be like this, it was over.

Is this true?  Probably for some of us.  And for everyone there must be some time that ends up having been the happiest time of their life.  But I can't figure out what it would be for me.  I've been blessed with a lot of happy times and not too many bad ones, and I can't pinpoint the best.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #205 on: October 07, 2018, 04:20:38 PM »
Hope your flight is smooth Pat - and yes, to think someone has a memory of their happiest time as being one time - maybe that is the difference - He is not saying his happiest day - but then even at that, to have a time that appears to be a year or less as your happiest - I guess thinking on it - as an elderly man it may be nice to have a time that is easy to retrieve and mentally relive as a happy time.

But then thinking further, many of the years I was bringing up children were for me the happiest and yet, within those years there was heartache and events that were not happy - and so maybe it is more a successful time without anything you cannot handle that makes for happiness.

All I know is with all the successful years I have had as a Broker, often being challenging, none of it compared to my experience when my children were growing up - in fact since and now that I am about finished with Real Estate as well, I am really finding it difficult with no obvious purpose in my life - hmm I wonder Pat - was there ever a time in your life when it was only success without your being challenged and your tummy had butterflies or the tension in the back of your neck tightened? 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #206 on: October 07, 2018, 06:13:58 PM »
I'm not so sure Jahan is stating it was the "happiest" time of his life.  He sees the year as being "the year of happiness."

I could never pinpoint one particular, "happinest" time of my life, because I have had so many.  The day I married my hubby, the day I gave birth to each of my three children, the day each of my five grandchildren were born, the day my hubby and I celebrated our 25th wedding anniversary  by renewing our vows in our church, celebrating our 35th wedding anniversary in Vegas, and so many other times, I could go on and on with, and I am still experiencing so much happiness.  I think someone must be very blessed to be able to say a year of happiness, because inside a full year so many other things can happen to make it happy and unhappy depending.

PatH.,  Have a safe flight on Tuesday to Bethesda.  Lucky you don't mind flying, with all the times you fly back and forth.  Do you have a set time where you will finally be settled in just one place, with no more flying?
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #207 on: October 07, 2018, 06:21:48 PM »



Congratulations, Pat. You chose a beautiful quote about Jahan's "year of happiness". But it's only the first sentence of the most perplexing paragraph in the book. Was it seen that way in hindsight, as Barb suggests? No, he hoped it would go on forever. ( I think that may be author interference.) How old was he in 1562? That's always something to puzzle over in this story, isn't it? I've decided he was 34.

What a sorry picture of Mihrimah. 'She sent everyone into a cold sweat...people were frightened to upset her.' But Jahan 'was to besotted with her to remember to fear her....'

I'm sorry I'm being called to dinner...in great perpexity........... 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #208 on: October 07, 2018, 07:31:00 PM »
With all the lean-to's, animal pens and poverty immediately surrounding the Hagia Sophia Mosque reminds me of the same sort of structures and poverty around the Notre Dame in Paris till after the French Revolution when it too was cleared and cleaned.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #209 on: October 07, 2018, 07:52:48 PM »
Hmm I think this is what lends itself to the jerkiness of the story that Pat brought up - the issue of the family that Jahan and Nikola encountered was horrific - we do not know how they got out or where they went - the story is stopped and all we know is Sinan sends a message acknowledging their difficult task and how unlawful construction wounds a city. 

The story of these people is not followed - their harrowing existence is described to pull at our heartstrings and then like blood cut off it is as if our emotions are cut off with a cerebral response - that to me is not fair - I am almost afraid to continue for fear there will be more examples of the miss-use of my emotions - hmm is this telling us how the role of leadership must move forward in order to save what is valued. Feelings must be set aside and the law is the vehicle to get on with it... maybe so...

Just hit me - I bet Jonathan you were called to your Thanksgiving dinner - hope you have a blessed and warm friendship with dinner companions as together y'all enjoying  your holiday meal.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #210 on: October 07, 2018, 08:18:46 PM »
The more I think on the family in such dire need it reminds me of the homeless today - whose responsibility is it to house the homeless - seems they turn any space they can into a place to sleep - seems long before industrialized nations, depravity and deep poverty was part of a community - and so today, to blame this on corporations or banks or the lack of full employment is not really fair -

We have in the bible Jesus saying, "The poor you will ALWAYS have with you." - no reason why or how it is, but just that the poor will always be with us.

And even older, we have from the Torah, "If among you, one of your brothers should become poor, in any of your towns within your land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart or shut your hand against your poor brother, but you shall open your hand to him and lend him sufficient for his need, whatever it may be...For the poor you will always have with you in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’"

But what does open wide your hand mean if the poor are destroying what is important and valuable to a city or keeping shop owners from their income by sleeping by their front door or denying folks the use of a public park because it has become the sleeping quarters for the homeless - one thing to talk about a balance but then how and who provides hygienic living quarters for the poor - oh we have examples in this nation including Loaves and Fishes who have with private money and organization, set up a 19 acre community of tiny houses here in Austin but this is not happening all over the nation and even with the wonderful community set up here we still have folks begging on the highways and sleeping in the wooded parkland.

It appears like sixteenth century Istanbul the law is what keeps a city from chaos but it is blind to individual suffering. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #211 on: October 07, 2018, 11:13:06 PM »
Tonight I watched this new TV show called, God Friended Me.  This guy Miles keeps getting a message that says, "God sent you a friend request", and he keeps clicking delete, but it keeps coming back, he finally confirms it.  He then gets a  friend request to add a guy, John Dove suggested by God, and it is highlighted in blue, Add Friend.  Miles sees this guy that looks like the pic of John Dove, follows him to the subway, sees he is about to leap in front of an oncoming train, and he stops him from killing himself.  Miles's father is a Reverend, and Miles does a radio podcast where he says he does not believe in God.  The first words in the show are, "New York City centre of the universe, home to 8.6 million people, a diverse melting pot of culture, everyone searching for meaning, answers.  I thought I had it all figured out but then something happened and it changed my l life forever.  There is no proof of God anywhere in the universe, we will debate that and more on today's episode of the Millennial Prophet, I am your host Miles Spiner.  Reminding you that there is no God, and that is okay."

Instantly, it made me think of the book we are reading, where the same words, "Centre of the universe", keep coming up.  Ironic, coincidence, I just know it was a bit interesting how this happened.

By the way, it's a great show!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #212 on: October 08, 2018, 02:11:03 AM »
Bellamarie the program appears to be on CBS at 7:30 on a Sunday night - ever since it became cool to say there is no God and to show every which way from Sunday why scientifically there is no God more and more people are searching for a spiritual connection - interesting...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #213 on: October 08, 2018, 07:37:15 AM »
Wow the second half of this section is dynamite - so much happens I have to go back and do a bit of re-reading - I have already forgotten - but some dynamite surprises - how did Jonathan put it... "The ending is a blast. Hang on to your hat."

Well this is not the end but it is a blast of the unexpected along with death; to buildings, people and the impending death of our star elephant - Could not stop reading so I have been up all night - to bed now for a few hours and back later...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #214 on: October 08, 2018, 10:43:12 AM »
Barb
Quote
more and more people are searching for a spiritual connection

Maybe that's God's divine plan! 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #215 on: October 08, 2018, 11:41:09 AM »
To say there is no God as you smash your idols, is cool on your way to the Truth. It's an endless search, or growth. It must be out there. It's our nature. Alas. We are the Chosen.

Jonathan

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #216 on: October 08, 2018, 12:03:25 PM »
 Such happy days in a long lifetime. So much to be thankful for. And now my daughter and granddaughters have me travelling around the world. It's the souvenirs they bring back from their travels. Sea shells picked up on the beaches around the world. The shells from Zanzibar in the Indian ocean are dazzling. The wonders from the Atlantic on the coast of France are charmante. Magnificent the wonders from the Pacific on a beach on Vancouver Island.

Today is our Thanksgiving in Canada. Thanks for all your good wishes. I'm having some Chinese food brought in. With pumpkin pie. Have a happy day yourselves. Something to look back to.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #217 on: October 08, 2018, 01:44:08 PM »
So Canadian Thanksgiving is TODAY, Monday the 8th - I thought yesterday Sunday the 7th - ah so -

A day set aside when a nation of people are grateful for their blessings successfully getting through a year and bringing in 'crops' (today that could be a year of a successful business) enough to last through another winter. And so, had to look it up and evidently there are nine nations in the world that celebrate thanksgiving of sorts

One of them is Liberia - I wonder if they still do after the disaster there in the last few years that has torn that country apart.

The US, Canada and Australia join Germany. Germany actually celebrates the harvest with Erntedankfest

Then there is Grenada, Japan, China, South Korea, and Vietnam that celebrate the bringing in of the harvest.

Looks like Jonathan your Chinese meal today is right in keeping with celebrating Thanksgiving. I wonder if China has pumpkin pie or pumpkin anything.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #218 on: October 08, 2018, 02:17:13 PM »
Does anyone else see the dichotomy of Jahan seeking truth and yet, so many times lying through his teeth - and the same with giving and taking - he is anxious to give his best and make his imprint on the architecture he has the privilege to build as an apprentice to Sinan and yet, even after the Captain was reported dead he continues to look at opportunities to pilfer. Now we learn that nothing gets past Sinan and he knew all the time.

Sinan says, “If not put to use, iron rusts, woodwork crumbles, man errs. Work we must”  Sounds like he is saying all we are is our work hmm what do you think? Does not fit with what we hear is our greatest challenge "To Love thy neighbor as thyself"

Loving neighbor builds community where as, work maintains community - maybe that is it - we cannot have one without the other. And so, work as a form of love and love expressed in work sounds like Martha in the Martha and Mary story.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #219 on: October 08, 2018, 03:09:38 PM »
Okay, I just finished this last section of The Dome, and I am feeling about as depressed and sad as Jahan.  He has lost his great love Mihrimah, his great mentor/father/Royal Architect Sinan, his beautiful elephant Chota, and Yusuf can no longer work with them since she is found out to be a woman.  The Comet in Sagittarius has caused grave disasters, plagues, droughts, earthquake, poverty, grief, resulting in the observatory ordered to be demolished,.  Good grief, how much can one take in one section?  I feel the book winding down.  Jahan has white in his hair, even his days seem limited.  Ughhh....

Yes, Barb, I do see the dichotomy you mention, and it shows he is only human.  The yen and yang in life.  It's like I teach my 3rd grade CCD students, there is the devil that sits on your left shoulder enticing you to do wrong, and the angel sits on your right shoulder, encouraging you to do what is right.  Jahan was brought up in poverty, so even though he has made a good life as an apprentice, he does seem to also fear it could be taken away at any minute and bring him back to his old life, and so he hides some valuable things in case it would happen. 

I have so much more to say, but must get ready to leave for my granddaughters volleyball game. 

Jonathan, again, HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!  Aye,aye, aye pumpkin pie!!!!  I love pumpkin everything.  Enjoy!!  You and your family sound like your travels are so very exciting.  I've become a home body, not wanting to leave my 14 yr. old shih tzu dog, Sammy.  He is like my shadow.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #220 on: October 09, 2018, 11:02:35 AM »
I have to confess, I picked my book up last night after watching the swearing in of the Supreme Court Justice Kavanaugh, and completed the entire book!  I could not put it down til the last page.  I promise not to give anything away, and will stay focused on the section we are on now. 

I loved how Jahan was at the bedside of the Princess when she died.  This really made the hair on the back of my neck stand up: 

"When I am not around you m may hear things about me that you might not like."  "No one may dare to say such things about your Highness."  She gave a tired smile.  "Whatever happens after I am gone, I want you to think of me with warmth in your heart.  Will you promise to take no notice of gossip-mongers and slanderers?"  "I shall never believe them."  She seemed relieved but instantly frowned as a new thought crossed her mind.  "What if you doubt me?"  "Excellency, I'll never__"  She didn't let him continue.  "If you ever have suspicions about me, remember behind everything there is a reason." 

It was as if she needed to die, knowing he still would love her and saw her, as the innocent child she was when they first met. 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #221 on: October 09, 2018, 12:30:37 PM »
Bellamarie the sentence that caught me while reading the passage you quote was, "If you ever have suspicions about me, remember behind everything there is a reason." I really went off on a riff after also, watching the swearing in of Judge Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court because there is often a reason that comes from an experience not obvious and then there is the whole issue of everyone's life experiences are different and everyone does not therefore share the same understanding or or see the same rational and that was when I saw it is the law that holds us together.

Even within the law there are nuances that are actually discovered during courtroom arguments that broaden the law as everyone accepts that a law does not speak to every instance or individual solution to a life challenge that was originally considered when the legal right was adopted.

Another difference that Mihrimah's directive suggests is that we often act upon our feelings, sometimes gut feelings or because of superstition as ghosts having caused changes as are agreed to in this story - the law does not include adjudication for our feelings there must be evidence. As Jahan is seeking truth he is really seeking evidence. And the behavior of Mihrimah may have been in reaction to a feeling or gut instinct that cannot be justified by anyone but her and that rational dies with her. I wonder if that is why we are cautioned never speak ill of the dead. We just do not know why they acted as they did in life.

I'm really having a very difficult time conjuring up an image for Jahan as he ages - is he still as wiry as I imagined him in his youth - hair grey and he would be fit with so much daily work - I just cannot get a picture beyond a man in his 30s or maybe his early 40s but past that I cannot catch hold of an image.  Now Sinan seemed old from the time he entered the story and I could even see the princess in her aging body - but Jahan or for that matter I cannot imagine the look of an aging white elephant... ah so... there is enough in this story to challenge my thinking and in some cases my long held beliefs.

Another quote in the book that I thought hit the nail - "It seemed to Jahan that, in truth, this world, too, was a spectacle. One way or another, everyone was parading. They performed their tricks, each of them, some staying longer, others shorter, but in the end they all left through the back door, similarly unfulfilled, similarly in need of applause."

At first I recoiled at the thought we left this life needing 'applause'.  How egotistical that sounded - until no, I realized, we all want to think we mattered, that we made a difference. We do not want to feel as if, like the observatory, our life would be torn down or prove to be forgotten and meaningless as the one whose comb was found by the fisherman. Or, even as Mihrimah having to give a directive that we acted as we did for a reason.

We may not have effected the lives of others as Suleiman the Magnificent however he too seemed to disregard his influence. and then Sultan Selim, who did not show 'magnificent' behavior although, during his drunken parties gave laughter to his companions as they attempted to protect him from himself and, he appears to have rewarded some of those in his realm. All this behavior because he was ill suited for his position and did not know how to be either fulfilled or appreciated.

Where do we put Captain Gareth in this parade, performing his tricks. He evidently was a skilled seaman whose skill was valuable to trade and creating riches in Istanbul but, is that overshadowed by his desire for ill gotten gains and to force weaker folks dependent on his skills to pilfer the riches he desired? Is he feeling unfulfilled and not receiving applause and so he takes, and has others take, as a substitute for recognition, for applause?   

Jahan is fortunate - he has the good will and love extended to him by Mihrimah that started only because, as a child she was entranced by Chota and then Jahan as the keeper of Chota and as a storyteller - For sure Sinan has shown Jahan, over and over how much he is valued - but what strikes me is, Jahan seeks recognition - not only does he give his best but he pushes for his building ideas to be used. Jahan is selfless helping others as he did not think twice about dancing like a fool for the gypsies so he could borrow their elephant for Chota. We see that as selfless and it appeared the gypsies also were impressed enough to include Jahan in their 'family' - however, did that mean Jahan felt fulfilled or appreciated. Is that it, we may be told or accepted as appreciated but, we must believe we are worthy of appreciation in order to feel fulfilled?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #222 on: October 09, 2018, 02:16:35 PM »
Barb, 
Quote
Another quote in the book that I thought hit the nail - "It seemed to Jahan that, in truth, this world, too, was a spectacle. One way or another, everyone was parading. They performed their tricks, each of them, some staying longer, others shorter, but in the end they all left through the back door, similarly unfulfilled, similarly in need of applause."

Yes!  I had highlighted that as well, because I found it to be so truthful.  We ALL do want and need some form of recognition in life, so we can feel as though we truly mattered.  Some are spectacles in their parade in life, they are pompous, egotistical, demanding attention, and needing accolades to feel accomplished and loved.  Others, like our Jahan, needs to have his designs used, needed the company of the Princess because his heart yearned for her, needed the relationship of Chota because it gave him purpose to care for this animal, and he needed the role model and love of Sinan.  All the rest were just performers in the circus parade of life. 

Jahan was selfless, yet wanted very much to fulfill his lonely broken life.  I especially loved how when he found out Yusuf was a woman it never mattered to him.  He wanted to protect her and keep her on along side him as an apprentice.  Sinan had a history of taking in broken people and making them whole again, giving them meaning and purpose in life.

I agree, like Mihrimah states,"If you ever have suspicions about me, remember behind everything there is a reason."

There always is "a reason", but..... does the ends justify the means? 

"The ends justify the means." – Niccolò Machiavelli. Probably the closest Machiavelli gets to expressing this view is in Chapter XVIII of "The Prince": [M]en judge generally more by the eye than by the hand, because it belongs to everybody to see you, to few to come in touch with you.


We don't always know a person's reasons, but without knowing we are left to see only what we see, and when we hear something differently from what we have always seen, how do we deal with that?  It gives me a lot to ponder. 

Barb
Quote
and that was when I saw it is the law that holds us together.

Without "Law" where would we be?  It is vital we preserve the Constitution of the United States, especially while we have people within out government and country ready and willing to tear it down.  When I read they were going to demolish the Dome, after all that hard work, the beauty it held, the books of knowledge it held, and the amazing minds who designed it, all due to a suspicion/falsehood, it was cursed, I gasped!  It's like in the world today, if someone can start a falsehood, get enough people to believe it, push the narrative, and then demand it is the ultimate destruction of something that is imperative to our protection, then we are at a crossroads in life that needs level headed people and longtime laws to step in and stop the calamity.  I for one feel confirming Judge Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court was the right thing to do, it will help to continue to preserve our Constitution, and as the 14th amendment states: give“equal protection of the laws.”

I continuously remind myself, there is nothing new happening in the world today, it has happened before Christ, during Christ and after Christ, and will continue to happen.  It's all about power, people wanting power either to do good or bad with it.  We just have to be very careful who we allow to have access to that power.

Okay, have to get ready for yet one more volleyball game. 


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #223 on: October 09, 2018, 02:36:56 PM »
Talking with my hubby about our book and posts about "Law", he reminded of this:

"The Perpetuation of Our Political Institutions", known as the Lyceum Address based on the location of its giving. by Abraham Lincoln.

The actual quote reads "Shall we expect some transatlantic military giant to step the ocean and crush us at a blow? Never! All the armies of Europe, Asia, and Africa combined, with all the treasure of the earth (our own excepted) in their military chest, with a Bonaparte for a commander, could not by force take a drink from the Ohio or make a track on the Blue Ridge in a trial of a thousand years. At what point then is the approach of danger to be expected? I answer. If it ever reach us it must spring up amongst us; it cannot come from abroad. If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

This applies to all nations who are not careful, who give power to people who have intent of harm, for their own greed, or purpose.  I ask myself....... What is the Princess's reason?  What is their reason?
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Jonathan

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #224 on: October 09, 2018, 05:30:22 PM »
Wow! Such interesting posts. But then the book has such an interesting second half, inducing such provocative ideas. Here's a society that's governed by the will of the ruler, as opposed to the rule law. Current affairs make it seem we're leaving it behind in the search for justice for all. Didn't Thomas Jefferson see the need for an occasional lawless period for societal renewal.

But just as important as the rule of law, is the constitutional provision for the separation of church and state. We read about striking instances of the religious community imposing its will on the community. No need to study the heavens. Tear down the observatory.

I've just spent an hour in that long ago dscussion, My Name Is Red, with its setting in 16th in Istanbul. What fun we had with that one. In 2006.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #225 on: October 09, 2018, 06:12:43 PM »
Bellamarie - interesting how we see in this book so many of our individual 'fast held' understandings and beliefs - and for that there are differences as well - my thinking is that we cannot banish an idea because in my view no idea can be banished by the powerful - however, we can agree as a community on principles, that are the measure of all ideas - Several communities is how I see this nation and to hold it all together we share principles which is the law embodied in the Constitution.

At the risk of turning this into a discussion on either the Constitution, the current law or political viewpoints, I'm thinking there are lots of decisions made by those in power or who are caught up among the powerful, that affects themselves and their protection as well as, the protection of family and friends.

As to this story, seems to me there was more 'palace' intrigue than we were privileged to know since this story is told through the eye, heart and mind of Jahan, whose understanding of the governing power is only what he observed. The only law seems to be Shara law and all other law is whatever the Sultan decides. And so, in order to stay on the good side of the Sultan I am sure there are decisions made that pit those in power against each other - In fact that concept seems to spill even to those working on the projects Sinan builds - accidents blamed on Ghosts that Jahan does not believe. For sure Jahan and Sinan broke the Sultan's trust, if not the law, sneaking in and removing as many books as Jahan could carry with the help of Chota - this is not something either Sinan or Jahan would like to be known and therefore, would fall under Mihrimah's quote, "If you ever have suspicions about me, remember behind everything there is a reason."

Mihrimah, like any mother, if she can she will figure a way around the tradition, that her children would murdered as is the practice of murdering any contender who could fight to be the Sultan. I am sure she would be manipulative rather than be one of the woman screaming in the night when her child or children are taken.

As to our views on the current news - these happenings do reach inward and many of us are researching to make sense out of a difficult couple of weeks. Bottom line, I saw the law and our Constitution's promises as the glue - however, I also see holes that I have no idea how to address. Actions to be adjudicated must be proven and need corroboration. Feelings and flashbacks and behavior modification because of past experiences cannot be addressed in a court of law - they are the by-product of an experience and no matter how de-humanizing that experience, without provable facts, the court of law is not where satisfaction can be obtained. To blame without facts is a problem of ethics/morality, a tactic used to discredited - bottom line, a form of intimidation.  Intimidation, in the past few years has been taken to new heights of bullying with attempts to silence anyone who makes public, information or anyone who represents, other thinking.

We could both, I am sure, go on and on with examples of how this was done and by whom with enough finger pointing blame to go round - and yes, I agree there seems to be a civil war going on - the quote from Lincoln says it all, "If destruction be our lot we must ourselves be its author and finisher. As a nation of freemen we must live through all time or die by suicide."

My concern is, who benefits from this civil war and are we really as free as we think we are or have been educated to think, and finally, how do we call an armistice before there are shots fired. 

But again, that is out of the scope of this book. From what I read, sixteenth century Ottoman rule was at its zenith and it was all down hill from there till its end in the early twentieth century. What happened? Why did Ottoman rule experience a slow death? But again, all subjects outside the scope of this book - However, this book certainly prompts more questions about the past as much as the present than we have read in a long time.  And for sure, we cannot help read this book and ask questions. The book is far more than a simple story of a young Indian boy and his elephant as they experience a lifetime of events. Through out the book are bits of wisdom and questions that have us turn to sorting out our own ethics.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #226 on: October 09, 2018, 06:38:27 PM »
Wow Jonathan, I got so wrapped up in the difficulties of the day that were lit afire by this book I did not see your post - hmm you have to wonder - did Shafak foresee or was some of out current unrest that visible when she penned this story? What a great idea to review the discussion on My Name is Red -

Interesting that you bring up separation between State and Church - we forget how some nations have a national religion that governs their behavior and how during the sixteenth century the civil war if you would was raging within the Roman Catholic Church and that the entire west had been under the control, even kings were second in their control to the Roman Catholic Church.

How do you separate church and state when within each of us our ethical views are often formed from our religious affiliation. I think that is part of this uproar. So many who no longer profess either a religion or their belief in God need to coalesce around a set of ethics and morality that has not been established into a formula or system but is trying to work with the law and a Constitution that was based on the religious point of view of its time. Yes, today there are many beliefs and practices that have changed. Some have been fairly successfully adopted and included in the Constitution and some are still caught in the traditions established in religious training learned on our mother's knee.

Holding all this together so that, unexpected forces do not take advantage as we learned in Shock Doctrine - it happened in New Orleans after Katrina and it could happen again as we continue the street fights that politics has become - we cannot stop the new ideas and so how they will play out will have our heartstrings playing various tunes for awhile. So far blame, shame and intimidation seem to be the weapons of choice.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #227 on: October 09, 2018, 08:39:03 PM »
Jonathan
Quote
But just as important as the rule of law, is the constitutional provision for the separation of church and state.

I'm afraid our country has decided to infringe on people's civil and religious liberties, and we can no longer separate church and state.  I see us at a point now where it is, celebrities and liberals, versus, religion and conservatives, and as the proverb says, To the victor goes the spoils."
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #228 on: October 10, 2018, 01:05:21 AM »
More history few of us ever knew about - the battle at Szigetvar is known as the battle that saved Civilization - I'm guessing this is a western point of view - Szigetvar is in Hungary. The siege of Szigetvár successfully halted the Ottoman expansion towards the city of Vienna. The Ottoman death toil in a month was above tens of thousands.

"The fall of Szigetvár delayed the advancement of Ottoman forces for another century. For this reason, it is often referred to as “the battle that saved the civilization” – that exact quote comes from the infamous Cardinal Richelieu. Almost two years after the siege, the Treaty of Adrianople was signed, before significant territorial changes occurred. All of them were favourable to the Ottomans."


Siege of Szigetvár Fortress
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #229 on: October 10, 2018, 01:24:35 AM »
Selim II


"After gaining the throne after palace intrigue and fraternal dispute, Selim II became the first Sultan devoid of active military interest and willing to abandon power to his ministers, provided he was left free to pursue his orgies and debauches. Therefore, he became known as Selim the Drunkard or Selim the Sot. His Grand Vizier, Mehmed Sokollu, a Serbian forced-convert from what is now Bosnia and Herzegovina, controlled much of state affairs.

As is commonly known, alcohol is forbidden in Islam, the professed faith of all Sultans (and by which authority they ruled). The attempt to portray certain Sultans as drunks seems to be rooted in a desire to demonstrate weakness of character and sincerity when it came to the faith of Islam. This accusation is repeated through most Western books regarding the Ottoman empire dated from the 18th century onwards (the Sultan ruled in the 16th century) however each case remains uncited as to its source."

Sokollu Mehmed Pasha

"He was imposed on the name of Mehmed and, first in Edirne and then in Constantinople, received a thorough Ottoman education as a recruit, first as an apprentice Janissary, then in the Enderun or palace school in Topkapı Palace.  Mehmed in 1541 became an Imperial Chamberlain and then the head of the Sultan's squires. In these positions he became very close to Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent and learned from him.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #230 on: October 10, 2018, 01:42:49 AM »
Written by Hubbi Hatun, a notable female poet was a lady-in-waiting to Sultan Selim II and later to his son Sultan Murad III.

    Being feminine is no shame to the name of the sun...
    Being masculine is no glory to the crescent moon.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #231 on: October 10, 2018, 09:59:23 AM »
Barb, Interesting post.  Thank you. 

Again, here we are today, with Kavanaugh experiencing the same as back then, with the drinking in his teens as a reason to make him unacceptable for the Supreme Court position.  Some things never change.

Quote
As is commonly known, alcohol is forbidden in Islam, the professed faith of all Sultans (and by which authority they ruled). The attempt to portray certain Sultans as drunks seems to be rooted in a desire to demonstrate weakness of character and sincerity when it came to the faith of Islam.

But then from what I can deduce from this story, they didn't need alcohol, they had opium to keep them in a drunken state.

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BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #232 on: October 10, 2018, 02:02:27 PM »
Looks like in order to climb the ladder the first step is to train and be a Janissary - if you distinguish yourself while serving you are tapped just as Sinan was a Janissary and now we learn the Grand Vizier, Mehmed Sokollu for Selim II was a Janissary.

Bellamarie to your post - I read somewhere that for some folks their only taste of success is when they take a bit out of you - this is then referred to as a mosquito. Another that I keep as a reminder, folks who gossip get a high when they can point to the short-comings of another - as to our current situation let me recommend a book by Ben Shapiro that helped me - Bullies: How the Left's Culture of Fear and Intimidation Silences Americans. 

We all deal with it in our own way - since I am more a centress I try to pull out what I can that actually highlights a problem - here of late that is a difficult task - I'm seeing too much control behind what is happening - just the women's march, it had to be organized - ever try to organize either a support or protest - it is like herding cats - it takes money and lots of organization - I'm seeing too many silently organized initiatives tearing this nation apart. They are too organized to be grass roots.

And so, with that realization I see real evil here, prying on the trauma's of being a woman and big time evil prying on women who have been humiliated which is the reality more often than folks want to accept.  It is not difficult to get a women who has experienced trauma into an uncontrollable space where she losses all agency over herself just as, it would be cruel punishment to set up a returning veteran, who has experienced war trauma. Many know some vets (not all) cannot control themselves and so they end up leaving family and home or punching out beloved family members.

To use women and how they handle their trauma in order to gain a political coup to me is unconscionable - and so, without turning this discussion into a blow by blow retake on the last few weeks and all those who have been seriously wounded and damaged, you are right Bellamarie, it is now easier to see this assault on a victim when hearing or reading a story and we can also, more easily see how the basic weakness of perpetrators unleash their fury - because, regardless when it happens, as a teen or later in life, in the 11th century or the 21st century, sexual misconduct is about power - gaining the upper hand, just as, bullying and destroying someone's good name is about power.

Leadership only knows how to operate in a constant battle for power and for us to be sucked in is like a quote from Bryant McGill, "Some people will drag you into their hellish world if you let them." Or another, "Some people are not loyal to you, they are loyal to their need of you. Once their needs change so does their loyalty." Watch what happens to Ford - she is already off the front pages. Which to me, regardless of political view, this is an unconscionable act based on attempting a power grab. 

Back to our book - question then becomes is Elif Shafak using and strengthening an old story that was meant to show weakness of character as a salacious bit to add to her story? What affect did reading the story of the drunken ride through town have while you were reading that chapter? Was the chapter important to the story? Was the chapter describing the Sultan's wild disregard for the quiet town his father promoted or, the respect for man and animal to sleep or, the respect for a man on the street rather than get him drunk or, was all that an analogy to something we overlooked?

Was Elif Shafak showing us through this chapter the beginning of the end? Was the weakness in leadership and how it affected the everyday folks in the Ottoman Empire showing us how they are sliding from the zenith that was Suleiman the Magnificent or was it a cheap shot prolonging the story that Selim II was a sot? 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #233 on: October 10, 2018, 03:19:51 PM »
Barb, I can only say, yes, yes, yes and more yeses to your questions in your post.  But like those in this story that have been used for greed, power, positioning, as those in what has been happening in our world today, the ones who are being used, also have a culpability in allowing themselves to be used.  Each person has their own personal agenda as well.  As we go into the next section of the book, it is clear, one used, is also one gaining something, for their own personal gain.

We would all be a fool if we thought these organized violent, hate filled protesters are of their own making.  It takes much power, money and quick methods to accomplish this.  We know who is behind them, and it sure aint Geppetto the puppet master, pardon my slang.  Just like celebrities keeping quiet while Weinstein molested and raped young upcoming actors and actresses, there is a silence in government allowing women, children, organizations and universities, to be used for their maliciousness in their efforts to gain power.

This reminds me of when Jahan confronted Sinan about why he stays silent:

pg. 328  "Are we not going to investigate who did this?"  "What can be done?  I cannot interrogate every man on the site.  If the workers suspect I don't trust them, they'll lose their will to work."  Uneasiness cam over Jahan.  He, on the contrary, believed that Sinan should question everyone until the culprit was found.  He said, in a voice he didn't know was capable of, "Michelangelo mourned his assistant like his son.  Whereas you . . .don't even care for us.  Glass, wood, marble, metal . . . Are we not like these in your eyes, mere instruments in your construction?"  Into the silence Sinan said, slowly, "That's not true."  But Jahan was no longer listening.

Jahan is starting to see for himself what really matters to Sinan, and others.  He is naive in thinking that people are put before power.  Sinan himself seeks the power to create and build the best buildings in the world.  At some point in life we all come to realize the dark truth, at times, greed and power can outweigh truth and justice. Jahan is realizing, Sinan, the man he has come to love as a father figure, strives approval from, the man he sees as noble, who has indeed done acts of humanity for not only him, but others, is also a man who chooses to sit silent, in order for him to continue his goals. 

Just in today's world in the past year, look at the men who have fallen from grace due to allegations of sexual misconduct, and all those who were willing to remain silent because it would hurt their own careers. Our mentors are our mentors, until they are not.



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bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #234 on: October 10, 2018, 03:56:48 PM »
There are many parts as we wind down that I asked myself, what is this author trying to show us, teach us, enlighten us with?  Why this or that?  I can elaborate more once we begin discussing the last section. But for now, what I don't want to fail to mention and consider is this:

pg.  307  Takiyuddin was writing a treatise on heavenly beings, a book called a zij.  Therein he registered the positions and distances and motions of the sun and the moon and the stars and the celestial bodies.  This would take him years, he explained, but when finished it would be a guide in perpetuity. 

'A zij is a map,' he explained. "A map of the divine creation.'  Long ago an infidel sage by the name Aristo__a man who had taught the great Askander everything he knew__held that the earth was at the centre of the universe and that it was peacefully at rest, unlike other celestial bodies.  He left it to astronomers to find the sum of the spheres that rotated around it, the cumulative number of the many domes that moved above their heads.

pg. 309 A few steps into this walk Jahan felt an urge to turn back and look.  Something strange happened then.  Of the two tall buildings that formed the observatory, not a single thing could be seen__not even a flickering candle from the windows or a glow from the instrument on the upper terrace.  So fully had its contours sunk into the sea of grey that in that moment it felt like the observatory had never existed and that everything said and done under its roof had been nothing more than prints in the sand.

Reading these paragraphs made me think of  Sodom and Gomorrah in the Bible.  When Lot's wife looked back to see the city of Sodom burning, and she was turned to a pillar of salt. 

Jahan is asked by Sinan to go and try to save as many books as possible before the demolish of the Observatory. He is able to save 489 books, and the zij was not one of them.

pg. 320  Only when Jahan returned to his room and put his head on his mattress and managed to calm his breathing did he realize that he had not, in his haste, remembered to look for Takiyuddin's zij.  In the end the court astronomer had not been able to stave off what he most despised.  Knowledge and wisdom had to be cumulative, an uninterrupted flow from one generation to the next; and yet the young astronomers who would come after him would have to start from the beginning all over again.

Why or what purpose was this used in this story? 

My only take so far, is that the author wanted to show, how even though we have the most brilliant men in the world, be is astronomers, architects, rulers, theologians, etc., etc., there are times that God wants us to rely on Him, rather than books, maps, or others.  As in the Bible the first words written are....

Genesis 1:1
In the beginning, God created heaven and earth....

I must go to get ready to teach my CCD class tonight.  This book and discussion sure has gone all over the place, and I am really enjoying it. 
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #235 on: October 10, 2018, 03:58:23 PM »
Wow I like your thinking and would not have thought through as deeply so, of course you can see evidence staring at us in the story of Sinan's sitting quietly - interesting when I read that there was a slight twinge but quickly over-ruled it - after all, in my mind he was supposed to be the good guy - I do that, I keep looking in life for folks to be a good guy - my downfall - over and over and over - ah so... maybe that is my purpose in life to finally realize there is no good guy that I can elevate as a hero, as a savior - the best of hero's will take care of their own passions and needs first - if not aggressively then silently - folks cannot and will not fall on their sword for every injustice.

hmmm that also then says a lot about my willingness to risk - Well there is that however in these discussions we can run folks off if we come down on one side of a political argument over another - I saw whole discussions ruined by that tactic when we were SeniorLearn.

However, ah yes the however- your view sure helps me understand better why I thought the whole shenanigans was just that - I could not imagine hanging out incompletely washed much less rinsed laundry on national TV to satisfy the usual life time reactions to sexual assault. I felt like hiding and could only look at the news out of the corner of my eye - now it makes sense - "the ones who are being used, also have a culpability in allowing themselves to be used.  Each person has their own personal agenda as well."
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PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #236 on: October 10, 2018, 08:23:00 PM »
Wow, I missed a lot of good conversations while traveling, but also finished the book on the plane.  I'm more and more impressed with it, and will post tomorrow on some of my thoughts--have been catching up and jet-lagged today.

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #237 on: October 10, 2018, 09:22:58 PM »
I am soooo glad to hear from you Pat - you have no idea - and yes for selfish reasons - looks like Bellamarie finished the book, Jonathan finished the book and now you are saying you finished the book and I took it upon my self to finish the book tonight - Wow - wow! wow! wow!

OK I am thinking there is a lot to say - we pretty much exhausted the section called The Dome but there are always bits we can further - and yes, that word 'however' - however, knowing what we know after finishing the book it puts a twist on the section called The Dome - and so tomorrow, Thursday, October 11,  let's just open this up and talk about not only this last section After the Master but the entire book -

There are bits that more can be said about and other bits that make sense after knowing the entire story - I did not want to suggest this while you were out of town Pat and then for you to come home and go 'What?' Please Pat share the thoughts you planned on posting. What a story...!

I may not get in here till tomorrow afternoon - please, just share all the pieces and wonderful quotes and any message that you are impressed with hearing and what the themes are and and and - Yes, this book turned out to be a surprise and a winner... 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #238 on: October 10, 2018, 09:29:41 PM »
Pat sounds like except for jet lag you had a safe trip - looks like you are home just in time for rain rain rain - although the winds etc. look like they will be further inland - that must be quite a shock to your system going back and forth - glad you are home safe and sound although, ;) which is your home???
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #239 on: October 10, 2018, 10:13:26 PM »
Sexual assault is a crime. Rightly so. What a pity that it should be dragged through the political mire. It was such fun when I was young. I always found willing, even eager partners. I was seduced at five. She was four, and wanted to compare notes. Ten years later my teacher got a crush on me. Another ten years and I found myself besotted like Jahan. I found her in the Abrams publication, Art Treasures of the Louvre. An elegant French beauty of the 18c. It took another couple of years to get to Paris and the Louvre. I stood transfixed until I was tapped on the shoulder and told the museum was  closing. I'm still thrilled to look at her picture. Those loving eyes and cherry lips....

And now our story gets real interesting.