Author Topic: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion  (Read 33275 times)

PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #240 on: October 11, 2018, 11:00:13 AM »


Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz
(Welcome to our Discussion)

A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton.

“I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three Sultans


Discussion Schedule:
  • Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18
  • Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master
  • Tuesday, September 25...........The Master
  • Tuesday October 2...................The Dome - to page 256
  • Sunday October 7....................The Dome - page 257 to 331
  • Thursday October 11................After the Master


PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #241 on: October 11, 2018, 11:01:07 AM »
Pat- glad you are home safe and sound although, ;) which is your home???
Good question, Barb, they both feel like home to me, but I'm still voting and paying taxes in Maryland.  I won't switch that until I get my house cleared out and sold.

The fallout from Michael is not expected to be bad here--just some heavy bursts of rain.

PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #242 on: October 11, 2018, 11:47:16 AM »
Jahan finally loses his beloved-from-afar, the Princess Mihrimah.  She sends for him, and he is with her at the end, though asleep at the final moment.  He sees the relationship clearly.  p 322:
Quote
That was where he had been all this time--somewhere on the edge of her existence.
He kisses her for the first time, and she says "You and your white elephant...have brought joy into my life"

She says "When I am not around you may hear things about me that you might not like"...."remember, behind everything there is a reason."

Think of the life she has had.  Although always loved, she always had second place to her brothers.  Her mother didn't give her loving care; she got that only from her nurse, who they kept trying to take away from her.  She had no say over her personal life, was married at a young age to a man she abhorred, and at least for a while spent all her days weeping.  She has always had to be her own defense, and protect herself by whatever means she could find.  It's hardly surprising she ended up a much-feared, bitter woman.

Indeed, there is a reason.

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #243 on: October 11, 2018, 12:00:15 PM »
PatH., Glad you are safely back home.  Can't wait to hear your take on the book.

Barb, Good to know we can begin discussing After the Master section. 

Jonathan, Seduced at five years old!  Oh my!  It makes me think of when I had my day care and I walked into the living room, my four year old grandson, and the four year old Gracie were coming out of my front closet, with all the rest of the kids laughing.  I asked what is so funny, and it appears Gracie had a bit of a crush on Zak, and wanted to kiss him in the closet, after the egging on of the older kids.  lolol  Seems little girls are a bit more assertive than boys. lol

Okay.... on to the rest of the book.  I have to say there were parts of the ending section that really irritated me. 

How in heavens name does a Chief Royal Architect's will get read without ALL parties present?  How does one manage to destroy BOTH copies of the will that is in two different places?  The whole will had me screaming... foul play!!!  This is a brilliant author,  I have admired Shafak's amazing integration of factual history blended in with fiction to give us this wonderful story, but for me.... she fell short on the ending.

The first part of this section is all about death, Sinan, Nikola, Sangram, Simeon, Chota and many others died due to the curse. 

pg. 344 "You mean they . . . opened the will?"  Sangram the son looked at Jahan with unmistakable pity.  "They did.  Your master wished him (Davud) to be his successor, it appears."  "Well . . . that's good," Jahan, feeling dizzy, as though a precipice had opened up under his feet and he was falling, falling fast.

Dizzy indeed!!!  I could not believe my eyes, as I am sure Jahan could not believe his ears, on this news.  We all know that Jahan was Sinan's favorite apprentice.  Immediately I suspected foul play.

pg. 348  She (Sancha) opened her bag, showed him the carved box Sinan had made for her.  Next to it were a dozen scrolls and a necklace of some worth.  "I'm taking these.  Master bequeathed them to me."

How could Jahan have not know at this point something was wrong?  Did he honestly doubt his place in Sinan's heart so much so, that he would not wonder why Sinan left nothing to him? His jealousy of Davud got the better of his common sense.  It would only seem logical, to question the will.  Seeing Davud with his very own book he had given to Sinan, should he not have known Sinan would never have wanted anyone else to have that book than he himself, or any of the other 489 books Jahan risked his life to save?

pg. 354  Slowly, he walked towards the bookshelves in the corner.  Inhaling the fragrance of ink, vellum, paper and time, he ran his fingers along the spines.  He saw On War against the Turk by this strange monk named Luther and The Book of the Governor that an Englishman called Elyot had dedicated to his king.  He found treatises from the library of King Matthias of Hungary.  And there, among the leather tomes, some thick, some thin, was Dante's La Divina Commedia.  The gift he had received from Simeon the bookseller and, after reading it again and again, he had given to his master.  His hands trembling, he pulled it out, feeling the familiar heft of it, and he glanced through the pages.  There was no doubt; it was his copy.  Clearly, Davud had taken possession of Master Sinan's collection.

pg. 355  As they were parting, Davud saw his guest to the door.  Up this close, Jahan caught a scent on his friend's clothes __raw and leafy and strangely familiar __one that dissolved so fast in the night breeze that he didn't have time to remember when or where he might have smelled it before.

Then he comes across the scrolls and finds the design of the Selimiye Mosque with different markings on it and considers Sinan made those changes.  Yet the date, 18 April 1573 catches his eye, but Davud enters the room and he puts it back. 

Is Jahan really this naive, to not suspect something is wrong? 

So much more to discuss, but I have to stop here for now.

PatH.,  I see we were posting at the same time.  Glad to hear you are only expecting rain from the fallout of Michael. 

Yes, the Princess had her reasons, but do the ends justify the means?  What good outcome came of her actions?  Sabotaging the building sites cost lives. So she had to deal with her inconveniences in life, not to make light of them, but, at least she was able to live until her natural time came. She lived in a beautiful palace, had her beautiful children, ate cavier, and was able to come and go as she pleased. I for one can not excuse her, or feel sorry for her, because of these reasons. I do like your assessment of Princess Mihrimah, a "bitter" woman.  Beauty on the outside, can never camouflage the ugly on the inside.

I think this author used this cliche' a bit too much, to excuse bad actions, and to gain sympathy from the reader.   

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #244 on: October 11, 2018, 03:25:10 PM »
What a beautiful parable opens this section - poetic, gentle I had to read it several times.

There was a tree in Paradise unlike any on earth. Its branches were translucent, its roots absorbed milk instead of water, and its trunk glittered as if ice-bound, though when on got close to it, it was not cold, not cold at all. Every leaf of this tree was marked with the name of a human being. Once a year, during the month of Shaban, (Shaban is the 2nd month of worship before Ramadan) on the night between the fourteenth and fifteenth day, all the angles gathered around it, forming a circle. In unison, they flapped their wings. Thus they raised a powerful wind that shook the branches. Gradually, some of the leaves fell off. Sometimes it took a leaf quite a while to drop down. At other times, the descent was as quick as the blink of an eye. The moment a leaf reached the ground the person whose name was written on it breathed his last. this was why the wise abdn the learned would never step on a dry leaf, lest it bore the soul of someone somewhere. 

I do not think I can look at Autumn leaves the same way ever again.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #245 on: October 11, 2018, 05:13:03 PM »
Yes Pat - think of her life - oh dear...

Although always loved, she always had second place to her brothers.  Her mother didn't give her loving care; she got that only from her nurse, who they kept trying to take away from her.  She had no say over her personal life, was married at a young age to a man she abhorred, and at least for a while spent all her days weeping.  She has always had to be her own defense, and protect herself by whatever means she could find.  It's hardly surprising she ended up a much-feared, bitter woman.


Reminded me of all those movies and stories of the poor little rich girls before the topic showed how children raised with all the toys and good schools as a result of, usually the father's work schedule and devotion to his amassing money - What was that Greek parable of the king, something everything he touched turned to gold including his daughter... then later after WWII various female movie stars were included for having ignored or abandoned their children to nurses, Swiss schools, cars, teen pool parties, and when young, elaborate birthday parties with the excuse their mother's job took first preference when all these kids wanted was some time and attention from their parents.

Here we had the social mores of the time, where girls were 'less-than' therefore, could not have the attention of their father's regardless, how much  a father loved the daughter and if the mother was trying to keep her position, with all those wives and concubines, she had little time for a daughter knowing full well, in their adulthood a daughter could not further the interests and well being of either parent. In a society where 'off with their heads' was real, a fight for position mattered. And then daughters were merely bargaining chips if that  - they had no say-so over who or when they married and marry they must. That attitude about who daughters married was with us right up until the 1960s. Wasn't it Princes Margaret who could not marry her love because he was a divorced man.

Remember when it was a novelty song - 'Love and Marriage go together like a horse and carriage- ya can't have one without the other...' - no such song today, so that at last women have more agency over themselves and who they marry.

If you had a head on your shoulders, with the education to use your head, that must have been a very lonely and heartbreaking existence for any child in a powerful family where wealth and the control of what brings the wealth are most important over showing love for each other. Painful for so many.

Yes, Bellamarie that is what hit me also - how there was no room for trust, loyalty or a loving relationship among all the personal vendettas, cruelties and power grabbing - it appears Jahan's only true friends were those cast aside by society, the Gypsies.

Bellamarie my take on the reading of the will was there was really no court system - the only law was Shari and whatever the Sultan decided or whatever a someone with some power could make happen within their authority.  Here is the copy of how to write and act on a will within Islamic law
https://www.islam101.com/sociology/wills.htm

Some of it includes English law which would not have been part of life in the sixteenth century - I think that last paragraph is probably what was 'conveniently' dis-regarded.

My thinking is, as today we know there are fake wills and the courts are involved - here it seems to me the will was grabbed and acted upon by those with malice in their hearts. Where or when the will was read could have been in the middle of the night but how could Jahan protest - there was no court system - plus it sounded to me like until he found the undelivered notes written to him by Sinan while he was in the dungeon he was never sure of Sinan's love - he too thought Sinan was all about and only all about doing whatever it took to build and so in keeping with his loving nature he kept on thinking the best but, hearing that he was not chosen he knee jerked back to how he felt abandoned while in the dungeon. Little by little he puts it together.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #246 on: October 11, 2018, 05:17:43 PM »
As to Mihrimah's love or lack of love - to me that is the unanswered question - we know she said, "When I am not around you may hear things about me that you might not like"...."remember, behind everything there is a reason."

I'm wondering, can we depend on her, old an bitter nurse, for the truth? A women who believed the Sultan "burned" for her when all the stories we read say the Sultan was completely enthralled by Mihrimah's mother, the one we in the west call Roxelana - With all her insight she did not guess that Yusuf was a woman or that Yusuf loved Sinan and yet, Hesna Khatun, is supposed to know all the inner secrets of Mihrimah - granted she would know most of Mihrimah's feelings but then, Mihrimah is aware there will be things said about her after she is gone - who knows what secrets she held in her heart - I'm not sure she would 'use' Jahan and then also look him in they eye when he was in the tree or have him by her side as she lay dying.

As to Hesna Khatun- anyone in her position that mentally had to look at Jahan with "a mixture of comtempt and disguest, saying aloud, 'Who the hell were you? An animal-tamer" A mouse reaching for a mountain! A servant of the Sultan in love with the Sultan's only daughter!" in my mind has a problem - she does not see any room for unrequited love - she wants to hurt Jahan - if she did not she would not have reduced him in her mind to an animal-tamer but would have given him some respect as an architect.

And then she proceeds to call him a simpleton, claiming Mihrimah called him, in the worst way, a "fool" which Mihrimah could easily have said in admiration that he was so innocent to be easily fooled. Wow and then Hesna with a quivering chin, in fury say "may your suffer from my scourge, Architect."  From MY scourge - which says to me she was being as hurtful as she could to tear down all Jahan's loves - an old lady who had nothing from her life of giving love, both real and imagined within the palace but, a building left to her that she did not occupy and this lonely cast aside life with no husband or children. This is some bitter vengeful woman - but then, she, without wanting to, helps Jahan get past his all consuming love that later he does learn Sinan did love him but, he never has closure if Mihrimah loved him or not.

Jahan is in a den of snakes with his only ladder out, the Gypsies - just the story of the supposedly dead woman - Jahan believed she was dead and it was the Gypsies who let him know there was no loss of life. Balaban is the one who stayed behind to help when Jahan was in the dungeon, he and his people help Jahan at every turn - as to Jahan gradually finding out what was really happening - seems to be the story is told as a mystery unfolding as he follows a trail of hints. Using his curiosity and his desire for truth born out during a dangerous search.  A lessor man would not have continued much less, come back after escaping to seek answers.

Regardless, if he was a pawn or not, in the palace games of intrigue, all through, I see him holding onto his viewpoint of a glass half full and is finally rewarded as a very old man back in India. I love that his desire to see the best is rewarded with a loving wife and child long after most men have passed on.

He to me is the symbol that Sancha remembered, said by Sinan to describe the dome - "We should raise domes that remind people there is a God and that He is not a God of revenge and hell but of mercy and love."  That is how I see Jahan - a fool if you will, for mercy and love. But then he was caught as was Mihrimah and as was Hesna Khatun - none of them had the power to confront the wrongs - they were trapped in this system - the only ones free to see reality and share brotherhood were the Gypsies who were outcasts to the system.   

I wondered at the significance of the stuffed cat's eyes - one sapphire and one emerald.

With all the intrigue and secrets Jahan indures I thought it interesting that out of love for Chota he creates a hoax giving the elephant a status of sainthood - seems for love we will do anything as some will do anything out of revenge. She shows both sides in her story.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #247 on: October 11, 2018, 10:56:09 PM »
It seemed to me the author got away from any reality after Chota died.  I felt like I fell into a Harry Potter and the Sorcerer book.

pg. 358  He's a beast," said the Chief White Enuch.  "A regal beast."  More astonished than annoyed at this breach of manners, the Chief White Enuch said,  "Enough folly.  Make your farewells.  The French emissary is going to dissect him.'   "It's the Sultan's wish."

pg. 359  Miserable, mournful, he reached the residence and there he delivered the elephant's body to the ambassador like a sacrificial lamb to the butcher.

Then the Chief White Enuch takes Jahan to the hamon of sorrows, to help him forget.  Jahan is preplexed.

pg.  361  Jahan blinked, remembering the name from a moment in time so distant it might have been from a life not his own.  "We go there and we forget.  Everything.  Do you understand?  Perplexed as he was, Jahan said he did.

Come on....how could Jahan not remember the place he lost his virginity?  I mean it's not like he is drugged.

pg.  361  The Chief White Enuch knocked three times with his ring, waited, then tapped twice with bare hands.  "Hyacinth?" said a voice behind the door.  "Hyacinth!"  repeated the Chief White Enuch. 
For one stunned moment Jahan couldn't breathe.  He had an awful suspicion the eunuch knew the nickname his mother had given him as a boy.  Unnnerved, he had no desire to go inside with this man, but the gate had already opened.


362.  They were greeted inside by the shortest woman Jahan had ever come across.  She laughed.  "Never seen a dwarf?  Or never seen a woman?

Then it all gets even stranger, when the woman looks like Mihrimah, they start popping opium, everyone leaves the room and the woman and Jahan start to get intimate and she says,

pg 364  "Call me Mihrimah," she said breathing heavily.

Jahan throws her off of him, she bumps her head and Zainab says, "She's dead,"  "You've killed the eunuch's mistress."

From here it gets even crazier!  Jahan goes to Davud's for protection, then stops at the French Ambassador's to pay one last tribute to Chota before leaving Istanbul.  Monsieur Breves gives him Chota's tusk.  Jahan goes to Mihrimah Mosque and buries the tusk and gives him a headstone near a Judas tree.  Then sees a goatherder and asks him to tend to Chota's tomb telling him it was a saint, named Chota Baba.

pg. 373 Slowly Jahan stood up, "I must go.  Keep an ey on this grave.  Make sure no one disrespects him.  You are the guardian of the shrine of Chota Baba.

Instead of going in the direction Davud told him to, he sidetracks and comes to the inn he and Davud got robbed, learns that Davud is the one who actually took his drawings, journal and things and chopped them up.

Now he goes back to the city, breaks into Davud's, finds the letter Sinan had written to him when he was in the dungeon, and realizes Sinan had come to visit him after all.  He finds the scrolls of the designs and sees the changes.  Davud catches Jahan, and he realizes Davud and the Chief White Eunuch are accomplices.  Jahan learns some hard truths here. 

"Master loved you like a son."  "I love him like a father.  A father in the wrong.  A great architect.  But a coward.  Never uttered a word against cruelty.  Or injustice.  Even when you were rotting in the dungeon he did not move a finger to!"  "Have mercy.  What could he have done?  It was not in his power."  "He could have said to the Sultan, let go of my apprentice my Lord, or else I'm not building for you."  "Have you lost your mind?  He'd have been put to death."  "It'd been a decent end,"  Davud countered.  "Instead he wrote you miserable letters."

"All he wanted to do was build.  One project after another.  But who will pray in those mosques?  Will they be unwell or hungry?  Didn't matter.  Every year, work, work.  Where do the resources come from?  Another war.  Another slaughter.  Did he mind?  He didn't care for anything else."  "That's not true!"  "Every colossal mosque we built was raised thanks to the revenues from another conquest.  On their way to the battleground the army would raze villages to the ground, kill more of my people.  Our master never cared for these sorrows.  He refused to see that, without bloodshed elsewhere, there would be no money, and without money there would be no building in the capital."

"There are two kinds of men, this I have learned.  Those who covet happiness.  Those who seek justice.  You long for a happy life, whereas I long for adalet.  We shan't agree.


Jahan gets beaten up and thrown into some dark dungeon and is saved by none other than.... the gypsies!  He gets free and goes to see Hesna Khatun searching for truth.  Well he got it.

pg.  400  "You used Davud but he got out of control.  He would not listen to you any more."  Pulling her cat closer, she sat still as a stone.  "Why did you do it?  For riches?  For mightiness?  Who bribed you?  Was it the Italians?  Did they want to stop my master?"  "Oh shut up . . . What nonsense,"  Hesna Khatum said.  "You want to know the truth?  Hear me out.

This was a Jack Nicholson and Tom Cruise moment, straight out of the movie, A Few Good Men, when Jack Nicholson says, "You want the truth?

Col. Jessup: You want answers?

Kaffee: I think I'm entitled to.

Col. Jessep: You want answers?

Kaffee: I WANT THE TRUTH!

Col. Jessup: YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

[pauses]

Col. Jessup: Son, we live in a world that has walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with guns. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? I have a greater responsibility than you could possibly fathom. You weep for Santiago and you curse the Marines. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know; that Santiago's death, while tragic, probably saved lives. And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, *saves lives*. You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me on that wall. You need me on that wall. We use words like honor, code, loyalty. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending something. You use them as a punchline. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post. Either way, I don't give a *damn* what you think you are entitled to!

 

"You think I could have done it without the consent of your Princess?"  "You are lying.  Mihrimah is dead.  She can't defend herself,' Jahan said.  "How dare you blame her?  I thought you loved her."  "I loved her more than anyone.  More than anything.  That's why I did as she told me and never asked why."  "Liar!"  "We believe in what we choose to believe," she rasped.  "Why would Mihrimah wish to weaken my master?"  "She had nothing against your master.  Lots against her own father."  "Sultan Suleiman?"

pg. 401  "She was devastated.  Torn between her love for her father and her hatred for him.  She loathed him.  She adored him.  My confused child.  "Mihrimah was richer than the treasury.  None stronger than her.  But her heart was broken.

"Mihrimah knew she could never triumph over her father, and she had no intention of doing so.  All she wanted was to make things more difficult for him.  The mosque your master was building was going to immortalize Sultan Suleiman and show his grandeur to posterity.  We decided to slow you down.  It was a little revenge."  "And you needed an apprentice to be your pawn," said Jahan.  "We considered each of you.  Nikola was timid.  Yusuf we couldn't approach; like a clam, he wouldn't open up.  You, we kept aside.  Davud was the best.  Angry, ambitious."

This is where I feel no matter how the Princess felt unloved, she had no right to put the men's lives in danger who were working on those buildings.  Her revenge, cost others their lives.

pg. 402 Jahan said, "Did she ever love me?"  "Why do you ask such a stupid thing?"  "I need to know if that, too was a lie.  For years I felt guilty if I desired another woman." 

"She liked you, like a pet, like a gown.  Like the lokum she tasted.  But you'd get bored if you ate it every day.  Nay, she never loved you."  "Fool," she whispered.  "My beautiful fool.  That's what she called you.  That's why she adored you so.  But would you call that love?"


And to end the calamity of horrors:

pg. 403  'How old are you dada?  you must be way over a hundred.  Is it true you were damned with eternal life?"  Hesna Khatun was about to laugh when a dry cough stopped her midway.  "I . . . wasn't the only one."  "What do you mean? Jahan asked in panic.  But even as the words left him he knew the answer.  "Think, which artisan, which man of great ambitions wouldn't want to live for as long as I have?"  Jahan shook his head.  "If you are referring to my master, he was an exemplary man.  Nothing to do with a with like you."  "At what age did he die?"  Her cackle turned into a cough. 

Before she could catch her breath, Jahan snatched the stuffed animal from her hands and hurled it into the fire.  Cardamom's fur was set ablaze, the gems glowing amid the flames.  "Don't," she screamed too late, her voice splintered.  "Let the dead rest in peace, dada."  As she watched the burning cat, Hesna Khatun's chin quivered with fury.  She said, "May you suffer from my scourge, Architect."
  "May you beg God the Almighty, down on your knees, to be taken, for it is enough . . . it is too much.  May He hear you pleading . . . may He see your agony and pity you, oh, poor apprentice of Sinan, but still . . . still may He not let you die."

Phew!  Just in time for Halloween, we are given this magnificent scary, demonic, ghastly truth. 

And like in all fairytales.... Jahan lives happily ever after, with a wife, a son he loved as if he were his own, named him Sinan Joseph Mutamid.  Jahan was nominated by the palace as Chief Royal Architect for the Illuminated Tomb -Rauza-i Munavvara, better known as the Taj Mahal.

If I have to take away anything from this story, I would say it's that all people have reasons for doing what they do.  Their reasons may be justifiable to their own thinking, but in all honesty, is it out of pure selfishness, greed or need for power?  Jahan was a hero, many times over, he was naive, innocent to a fault, loyal, caring and a wonderful animal trainer/friend for Chota, along with being a brilliant master architect. But I have to agree with the Princess, when she called him . . . "My beautiful fool."


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #248 on: October 12, 2018, 12:04:29 AM »
Love it Bellamarie - especially referring to Tom Cruise - what a hoot - you made it sound like an old Saturday morning western or Charlie Chan movie - how about one of Shakespeare's comedies, for sure not one of his heroic plays about kings and battles - and so, as in Harry Potter, the plot thickens - oh oh oh just too perfect Bellamarie as you chronological the events - well it is a wind up for sure - Is this a myth, a fairytale - a story that could have happened - who knows - however, it does offer a lot of bits that got us thinking and in this last section there are a couple of wing dingers -

Going back and re-reading those first pages of this section, it makes sense, Sinan's last words to the group - "It all must have happened for a reason. One must think of the reason, not hate the person."

On page 346 when Jahan watches the hooded falcons go by and Sancha is weeping, the sentence to me is emblematic of the entire Ottoman system in Istanbul. "A lad who was a girl, a mute with the gift of speech, a concubine yet and architect, she had lived a life of lies and layers - no less than Jahan."

They were all living a life of lies and layers - Mihrimah, Hesna Khatum, Davud, certainly the Chief White Eunuch that was not a Eunuch, concubines that were not dead, a Sultan who lead through proxy and a Sultan, who in death is shown as the commander and chief riding on an elephant - it is all smoke and mirrors with so much casual death and revenge - talk about what we used to call a 'den of inequity' -

The story sure is in keeping with so many royal households - certainly it can parallel Henry and his six wives with all the intrigue surrounding Wolsey and Thomas Cromwell - then when you read the accounts of some of the Popes, the Curia and the Cardinals, especially during the time of the Medici's - they all operated with lies and layers.   

And this - whow -  what do you think - Love was not needed. Better without it. Love only brought pain.
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bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #249 on: October 12, 2018, 10:38:50 AM »
Barb, thank you for pointing this out, perfect!!

"A lad who was a girl, a mute with the gift of speech, a concubine yet and architect, she had lived a life of lies and layers - no less than Jahan."

Indeed, they all were living their lives for what ever reasons they had, they chose the life they led.  Circumstances led some in directions they would never have gone on their own.  Situations changed their lives mostly for the better, although some could not let go of their envy, revenge, resentment, wanting what could never be, prevented them from being able to appreciate what they had in front of them.   

Elif Shafak is a magnificent writer, who in this book brought excitement, drama, knowledge, thought provoking information about Istanbul, the Ottoman era, and the beauty of architecture. 

I would never have read this book outside this book club.  As always, everyone who contributed to this discussion made the book even more enjoyable for me.  I can't wait to hear Jonathan's thoughts about the last section.  PatH., hope to hear from you as well, you always have such interesting thoughts that help me see things in different perspectives.  Those who lurked, or began and could not continue for what ever reasons, please feel free to give us your thoughts as well. 
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PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #250 on: October 12, 2018, 01:00:50 PM »
"What is truth?" could be the motto for much of the last section of the book.  It certainly shifts around a lot, as we uncover  the layers of lies, and I don't believe we have it all straight even now.  That's especially true of Hesna Khatun's story.  She has her own agenda, she's vengeful and scheming, a bit crazy, and very jealous of anyone else who might chip away at Mihrimah's affection for her.  Her story can't be trusted.  Certainly Mihrimah must have started the campaign against the Sultan through Sinan, but I'm betting that the nursemaid was the main schemer once it got going, not just following orders.  And I think she played down Mihrimah's affection for Jahan; she was jealous of any affection Mihrimah showed toward anyone else.  I believe Mihrimah felt a genuine affection toward Jahan.  It was short of romantic love, which she knew was impossible for them, but real all the same, something worth having.

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #251 on: October 12, 2018, 01:56:44 PM »
Pat that was my take on her as well - between her and Davud whow - quite a pair - Davud's back story did in my mind give him some cover but to go as far as he did - I don't know - beyond any revenge tactic I can imagine - and with all that Sinan did for him, never did soften his childhood trauma - but Hesna Khatun was something else again - trying to picture in my mind's eye this story as a movie and cannot even think what actress could play that scene - end of her life and to spend the time she had left being that hysterically bitter and down right mean - wow. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #252 on: October 12, 2018, 02:32:25 PM »
An interesting point about Davud: on his deathbed, Sinan says he has discovered the identity of the saboteur.  But he doesn't reveal who.  "It all must have happened for a reason.  One must think of the reason, not hate the person."  And the reasons for Davud's bitterness make his treachery understandable, though not justifiable.  Presumably Sinan would have behaved differently if he had realized Davud was capable of the massive treachery of bypassing his will, stealing the place meant for Jahan, plus making off with all Sinan's possessions.

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #253 on: October 12, 2018, 03:21:08 PM »
I guess Pat it goes back to Davud saying - "There are two kinds of men, this I have learned. Those who covet happiness. those who seek justice. You long for a happy life, whereas I long for adalet. We shan't agree."

Interesting - I had a good friend who was always railing about something and her whole life was about Justice - she had cards made with various quotes from the Bible about justice - AND she was always on the edge of anger - I mostly listened but could not get myself riled up and some of her issues were in my mind misunderstanding history that foolish me would try to enlighten her as if logic and education can affect someone's feelings - but what I see in Davud is more than revenge but envy for the 'things' and life that was Sinan's - I think in some ways he thought he was emulating Sinan when he opened his home and arms to Jahan -

I think back again on my friend and in many ways we shared a similar history and yet, we each handled it differently - no right or wrong I guess but then, in his anger the way Davud took advantage of Jahan was one thing but to see him beaten and left to maybe even die was quite another. I guess in that he owns upmanship or bragging rights over Hesna Khatun, who was emotionally and verbally abusive but did not physically abuse with a risk of death.

Shafak did a good job of keeping the reader in the dark through this entire book as to the culprit for harm in Jahan's life.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #254 on: October 12, 2018, 04:46:04 PM »
Barb
Quote
Shafak did a good job of keeping the reader in the dark through this entire book as to the culprit for harm in Jahan's life.
Yes, she did.  She's a good storyteller, isn't she.  And I had never heard of her until you suggested reading this book.

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #255 on: October 12, 2018, 05:08:18 PM »
And for the life of me I cannot remember where I found the book - probably some email with book suggestions - although looking for a book we had some qualification and so maybe when I entered them in Google this came up because I only remember the other was something Behemoth about the history of factories - oh yes and another was the early history of Ireland - we had about 6 but like you I had never heard of her and it appears she has written several and is a well known author in Turkey.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #256 on: October 12, 2018, 07:23:34 PM »
PatH.,  I 100% agree with your posts.  You could not trust "the witch" as Jahan referred to  Hesna Khatuntell, to tell him the truth.  She thought of Mihrimah as her own daughter.  She hated Jahan, and I ask myself why?  Because she knew Mihrimah indeed have affection for Jahan.  I did not see it as being, "in love"with him, but because she had any affection for him made Hesna Khatun jealous and furious. 

Barb, I have to say that I can honestly understand Davud's reasoning so much more, than Mihrimah's, for sabotaging the sites.  It was not only his childhood and family that was destroyed, but as he stated to Jahan, it continued with the soldiers razing the villages of his people, on their way to war in present time. This is why he refused to continue the constant building, now that he is the Chief Royal Architect.  I seriously have to respect his thinking on this. 

I agree, this author did an excellent job in keeping the mystery of who was involved in the sabotage til the very end.  But then again, she had us all over the place with Jahan's escapades, how could we even concentrate on anything else?

Yes, I agree, had Sinan had the time to do something differently about his will, after having the knowledge of Davud's involvement, I think he may have made it public, that Jahan was his choice to take his place.  But then it also makes me wonder if it would have made a difference.  As Davud pointed out, Sinan never spoke up against injustice.  He could have told Jahan to alert him before dying, and yet he stayed silent in revealing the culprits.

I think Davud was hoping he and Jahnan could be close, he the Chief Royal Architect and Jahan his #1 apprentice.  He saw Jahan as naive, weak, and not ambitious enough to hold the place of Sinan, because even though he loved Sinan, Davud found him weak as well.  Davud saw this opportunity to right some wrongs, by taking Sinan's place.  He would have assumed Jahan would have continued on the same path as Sinan, with wars to keep building, which would mean more of Davud's people being killed. 

I just may have nightmares of "the witch" Hesna Khatun, and that dead stuffed cat, Cardamom's fur set ablaze, the gems glowing amid the flames.   ;D ;D
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #257 on: October 12, 2018, 09:21:20 PM »
Yes, Bellamarie I can see how the childhood experience Davud endured marked him for life - as to using that smoldering hate and resentment to wound Jahan and to sabotage to the point of killing others - hmm - but then it would take a mature thinking brain to overcome the instinctive feelings of powerlessness he experienced as a child that he so wanted to repair with his version of justice.

Sort of an eye for and eye kind of behavior - Using that as an analogy for today and recently learning how war is tied to debt and bankers and a shift in the power base that is not seen by those engaged in a war, I'm not seeing an end of war for those who burn for justice in order to 'right' their past - war is not about righting justice - war is about money and the power shift because of debt.

The issue over justice is difficult with thoughts on both sides of the issue - The story of Davud does remind us that for every war there are the seeds of hate, resentment or revenge - then, there are those Like Mandela, who can get past what happened or at least not act on their feelings of hate, resentment with vengeful behavior. 

There are those, whose cry for justice flames their own anger as they touch the anger of others - and then there are those who make a positive difference after their painful experience like, St. John of the Cross, imprisoned by his carmalite brothers and tortured horribly for years or, Saint Maria Goretti,  forgave the young man who stabbed her fourteen times because she would not consent to his advances or, St. Raymond, taken from his mother's womb by a soldier after she was killed by the opposing army or, the number of pregnant woman, tried and hanged by the courts of the Spanish Inquisition and while the body still hung by the neck, infants were seen to fall free of the body.

Atrocities happen - as to Davud's story, it shows us how a no war policy means no more money for large initiatives that hire many workers which meant Davud's skills were dimmed, used only for small projects - I am remembering that many bemoaned Bush 43's answer to unemployment was to wage war and 9/11 provided the excuse. My take reading this is, Davud, as understandable because of his history, shot himself in the foot by seeking the justice that really never satisfies pain. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #258 on: October 12, 2018, 10:47:47 PM »
I can sympathize with Davud until he fell into the common trap--caught in his plotting, he became more and more evil, did worse and worse things, and turned more and more to the luxury of his stolen position.

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #259 on: October 12, 2018, 11:09:01 PM »
But speaking of war, there was one battle I watched for, wondering if we would see it, and we do:

p 272: As they were making ready to journey to Adrianople, a naval battle between the Ottoman and Christian forces was under way in the Gulf of Corinth near Lepanto.

p 273 But dark news welcomed them at the city gates of Adrianople.  The entire Ottoman fleet had been lost in a humiliating, harrowing defeat.  If kiyamet had another name it would have been Lepanto.  Hundreds were drowned, killed, enslaved.

This was a turning point in the attempted expansion of the Ottoman Empire, and in the style of naval warfare, but it also is a link to history that's more familiar to us.  One of the Spanish soldiers in the Christian fleet was Cervantes.  He was badly wounded, ending up with an almost useless left arm.  Later on he was captured by Ottoman pirates, and spent 5 years as a prisoner in Algiers.  Fortunately, he still had a good right arm to write Don Quijote with later after he was freed.

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #260 on: October 13, 2018, 12:08:38 AM »
PatH.,  How interesting, you were able to look and find these historical facts.  And Cervantes being captured by pirates, later writing the great novel Don Quixote, with only one good arm.  I learned something new!

I sense Mihrimah,  Hesna Khatun, Davud, and all the other evil characters in this book, started out not as evil.  They each have their own reasons for why, and what turned them to become evil.  Each of them allowed the evil to possess them, to the point of not considering the harm they would bring to others, to avenge those they intended their evil acts upon.  Davud felt there was justice, in no longer going to war to gain the currency to build big lavish buildings, because the human life currency was more valuable.  As he pointed out to Jahan, "But who will pray in those mosques?  Will they be unwell or hungry?"  In Davud's mind, he saw himself putting his people's lives, above buildings of mortar.  What good is having all these mosques, if there are no people to attend them, or the people are unfed and hungry?  It's a bit of an quagmire, or even an oxymoron when you try to understand Davud's thinking.  But I get it.  I'm not saying I am in agreement with his actions, I am saying, I think I can understand his thinking, for doing what he did, and why he did.  Maybe I see it differently then intended, but I see him stealing the position from Jahan not for power or money, he clearly wanted to save his people, and thought this would be the way to do it.  He didn't care about building big mosques when it cost the lives of his people, and he certainly did not want more wars.  In his mind he had his justice, whether we the reader agree with or not.  It may not have satisfied his pain, we don't know, but it made him feel like he was at least doing something to save his people.

I remember my mother saying, "Evil is as evil does."  My take on this is that one becomes evil once one commits acts of evil. If someone DOES evil things, then they themselves are inherently evil
 
e·vil
ˈēvəl
adjective
1. profoundly immoral and malevolent.
"his evil deeds"
synonyms: wicked, bad, wrong, immoral, sinful, foul, vile, dishonorable, corrupt, iniquitous, depraved, reprobate, villainous, nefarious, vicious, malicious


These characters became evil, once they began doing their evil acts, regardless of their reasons.

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BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #261 on: October 13, 2018, 02:16:36 AM »
Interesting Pat on Cervantes - I have never looked into his life - had no idea he was in a navel war - I remember now reading how they lost that battle and how the city reacted - thanks Pat for enlightening us

On PBS tonight there were two shows back to back delving into a Shakespeare play - I could see bits of both plays in this story - betrayal and spreading lies in Much Ado About Nothing and then The Merchant of Venice that went into revenge and harmfully controlling others because of being damaged by society - the two programs bled into each other but there was a bit where when the actors were discussing a scene and said that to continue with the aggressive act contemplated was to put a halt to civility as if we were back being cave men -

So yes, I can see the pain that Davud attempted to expunge and the cause of the pain as he deduced but, to act as he did was no different than the Sultans, who to protect the throne from a fight for power killed off all contenders -

For me a bridge too far was Davud wearing the fine robes of his confiscated postion - stealing all of Sinan's personal belongings from books to carpet and installing his family in a fine home - none of it was to be his - he stole it all - plus the biggie in my way of thinking was, his plotting and arranging to kill those on the job because he deduced the money used to build came from the death of others -

Making the choice to be human is not easy - many of us have had to learn to live with the unforgivable - some of us cannot even forgive the unforgivable - but to loose our own humanity - sorry Bellamarie cannot go there.

Reminds me of recent events when a man's reputation was destroyed in public because of the belief of another - I can even see how the fear to women's freedom for agency over her own body is at stake and was visceral to those who thought, anyone who could possibly take that away needs to be destroyed - and so, I see Davud acting in that same manner based on this deep inward feeling of defilement that bypasses the intellect over the loss of his mother and family at a young age. He blamed war and the proceeds from war that creating these magnificent buildings. He probably saw the buildings as debasing the deaths of those killed during war - but then to take that next step and cause the death of others as well as, steal the position and possessions of those who believed in him desecrates all that is ethical. 

I think where I could not tolerate, I could give some quarter if his actions were to other than those who supported, befriended and helped him be the capable man he became - thinking about it was that betrayal that for me was intolerable.

I do agree that his cause was just and understandable - but I recoil at his double-dealing and unscrupulous behavior. 

hmm a thought - is this book showing us examples of opposites as in,  "I have sought to concentrate on beauty and happiness, rather than on man's inhumanity to man.” Alma Woodsey Thomas.

The history of our march towards civilization is filled with man’s inhumanity to man. Yes, Davud's character questions for all of us, if all the slaughter is worth it because it is based on the philosophy that a mighty power has the inherent right to hunt and destroy any hapless minion that in its opinion could one day pose a threat to its own selfish interests. Problem - where on the continuum does that put Davud.
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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #262 on: October 13, 2018, 02:45:20 AM »
Battle of Lepanto



On October 7, Catholics remember Our Lady of the Rosary.
The feast was actually instituted under another name: In 1571 Pope Pius V instituted “Our Lady of Victory” as an annual feast in thanksgiving for Mary’s patronage in the victory of the Holy League over the Muslim Turks in the Battle of Lepanto. Two years later, in 1573, Pope Gregory XIII changed the title of this feastday to “Feast of the Holy Rosary.” And in 1716, Pope Clement XI extended the feast to the whole of the Latin Rite, inserting it into the Roman Catholic calendar of saints, and assigning it to the first Sunday in October. In 1913, Pope Pius X changed the date to October 7, as part of his effort to restore celebration of the liturgy of the Sundays.

The Battle (of course written by the Victors)

On October 7, 1571, a patchwork fleet of Catholic ships primarily from Spain, Venice and Genoa, under the command of Don Juan of Austria, was at a distinct disadvantage. The much larger fleet of the Ottoman Empire—a force with 12,000 to 15,000 Christian slaves as rowers—was extending toward Europe.

However, St. Pope Pius V, realizing that the Muslim Turks had a decided material advantage, called upon all of Europe to pray the Rosary for victory. Christians gathered in villages and towns to pray as the sea battle raged; and at the hour of victory the pope—who was hundreds of miles away at the Vatican—is said to have gotten up from a meeting, walked over to an open window exclaiming “The Christian fleet is victorious!” and shed tears of joy and thanksgiving to God.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #263 on: October 13, 2018, 03:26:45 AM »
Bellamarie your post gives a lot to think about - I am wondering now what is more important - taking care of people or building -

We have seen in the past 15 years or so what happens when a factory and the support businesses pull out of a town - we are now seeing what is happening as more factories and businesses are reopening - I'm thinking people in cities and towns cannot take care of themselves without work - so maybe those buildings were more important -

During construction they provided work and after they were built they still provided some work for maintenance but more, they provided a place for prayer that attracted lots of people who needed a place to stay and a meal or two so then the surrounding area had jobs -

As to the poor building illegal shelters cheek to jowl next to these mosques - the only reason folks flock to an area is to get on the jobs bandwagon - too many come and there are not enough jobs but without the mosque there would be no work at all. 

And then to see war as the driving economic engine - it appears wars at that time were not waged on borrowed funds as they are today - for generations the world was run by physical labor - the booty for the victors was not only the wealth of the conquered land but the people were enslaved which meant, more free labor for the victor which translated into the slave labor and wealth to fight more wars to capture yet more free labor. 

Hate this but it appears that war, with all its horrors is what promoted civilization. Need to find out more about the economics of war and how or if it was the engine to civilization.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #264 on: October 13, 2018, 10:12:41 AM »
Barb
Quote
Making the choice to be human is not easy - many of us have had to learn to live with the unforgivable - some of us cannot even forgive the unforgivable - but to loose our own humanity - sorry Bellamarie cannot go there.

I respect your thinking, even though it's not how I see it. 

Let's just say Jahan became the Chief Royal Architect, as Sinan intended.....wars would continue to pay for the cost of lavish mosques to be built, more innocent people would continue to be razed in their villages, for the sake of building these lavish buildings.  That is more acceptable than:

Quote
Davud wearing the fine robes of his confiscated postion - stealing all of Sinan's personal belongings from books to carpet and installing his family in a fine home - none of it was to be his - he stole it all - plus the biggie in my way of thinking was, his plotting and arranging to kill those on the job because he deduced the money used to build came from the death of others -

A man wearing robes, owning books, and refusing to go to war and kill his people, for the sake of money to build, is considered inhuman? 

I'm sorry Barb, but we will have to agree to disagree.  As I stated,  I don't condone what Davud did, but I do understand his thinking.  Hesna Khatun, and Mihramah were his accomplices, and their reasons were because her father neglected her as a child, and jealousy.  Hmmmmm..... now THIS I can not comprehend. Davud's reasons were to Save lives....NOT buildings! 

Barb,
Quote
without the mosque there would be no work at all.
 

So continue to kill innocent people, to keep work for the people????

Interesting how killing innocent people, to continue to spur on the economy is acceptable, but sabotaging the building sites resulting in loss of innocent lives, stealing the Chief Royal Architect position and all of Sinan's possessions is not acceptable.  Seems like a double standard.  But then isn't that how life is?  We have wars today that are contradictory to their reasons.  Ah so..... I see us at an impasse, so to quote Rudyard Kipling:

"Oh, East is East, and West is West, and never the twain shall meet." ...   Rudyard Kipling, in his Barrack-room ballads, 1892:

Or better yet, to quote Davud:  "There are two kinds of men, this I have learned. Those who covet happiness. those who seek justice. You long for a happy life, whereas I long for adalet. We shan't agree."
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
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bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #265 on: October 13, 2018, 10:58:18 AM »
One last thought before I leave for the day......  What a brilliant author we have in writing this book, and giving us these scenarios to debate, discuss and contemplate on.  Isn't it what we face daily?  Right vs wrong, good vs evil, justice vs injustice, war vs peace, rich vs poor, power, position, and all the reasons a person has, for why they make their choices in life.   

Kudoos to Elif Shafak, just as she created in writing Davud, Mihramah, and Khatun plotting and planning strategies against others, she knew she would present to her readers these complex, thought provoking issues.  Each person's own individual, personal, faith based, political ideals, would play into their own take on these characters behaviors.  We focus on these three characters, yet I have to ask myself why weren't others behaviors just as appalling?  The author points out the other characters flaws, and how their actions also could have cost lives, yet why are they less important when taking account and responsibility?  Is it because she faded them into the background, or dressed them up with emotions, gave them a better position as Sultan, Cheif Royal Architect, etc.?  Do we tend to overlook bad behavior in those we feel more comfortable with?  I suppose I'll be thinking a lot more about this as the days go by.

There is no right or wrong answer here, there is just what we individually assess, for our own reasons, just as these characters did when choosing their actions.

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #266 on: October 13, 2018, 11:32:14 AM »
ah so - yep we see it differently - as to measuring who is worse - is like being a little bit pregnant - as to war - I just do not know - I see we have always had war - the only nation in the history of man that was not created and maintained by war is Libya - the idea that negotiations where both get something may catch on but I am not seeing it anytime soon.

I also see we each maintain ourselves only through the killing of either plants or animals - and so aggression appears to be a part of our life - To condone anythng goes behavior tosses us back to an uncivilized society before the ten commandments or the ethics of most religious belief systems -

Integrity is missing in Davud - I see Jahan not stooping to this disregard for others - as to using personal pain as the rational for a lack of integrity and for criminal behavior - we all have our challenges and some are more difficult - that difference was noted by Simon Wiesenthal immediately after being freed when fellow prisoners in the concentration camps destroyed th surrounding fields out of anger and revenge and his thoughts about that behavior in his famous book Sunflower.

So yes, we have to disagree - cannot imagine the kind of world where folks act on their negative feelings and we excuse crime and sin because of personal pain therefore, condoning killing others and stealing or destroying what belongs to others is justifying organized crime and Antifa today. I just can't...

Yes just saw your next post and she does bring us face to face with identifying our morality doesn't she - OK full day today -   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #267 on: October 13, 2018, 01:24:53 PM »
Barb
Quote
cannot imagine the kind of world where folks act on their negative feelings and we excuse crime and sin because of personal pain therefore, condoning killing others and stealing or destroying what belongs to others is justifying organized crime and Antifa today. I just can't...

Nor can I.  As you have overlooked .... I have repeatedly said, "I do NOT condone his actions." I do NOT excuse, condone or accept crime and sin of anyone including, Davud's, Mihramah, Kahtun or any other character's acts of evil. I merely am stating, I can understand Davud's thinking.  Understanding a person's thinking does not equate to agreeing or condoning his reasons or actions. A HUGE difference.  And yes, if we cast judgement on Davud, then we must also include all the other characters who did evil.  Sinan must have saw something in Davud to hire him, keep him on as his apprentice, and not reveal he was ONE of those sabotaging the sites. He even stated on his death bed, to not hate.  Sinan had his own flaws, and he was able to see others flaws as well. There were layers and layers of liars, deceivers and evil doers in this story.

Integrity is the quality of being honest and having strong moral principles, or moral uprightness. It is a personal choice to hold one's self to consistent standards. In ethics, integrity is regarded as the honesty and truthfulness or accuracy of one's actions. Having integrity means you are true to yourself and would do nothing that demeans or dishonors you.

Again, what one person sees as integrity, could be something another does not.  I am sure Davud thought he had integrity, because he saw himself saving his people. Was what he did right?  Absolutely NOT!  But in his eyes, we would never convince him differently.  That's where the author is brilliant!!!

Not sure where you are going with Antifa, but I am strongly against them and there actions.

I think you and I are actually closer to agreeing than we realize. For me, I am staying with this story and the characters, leaving personal emotion out of it.  I can see yours is more personal, and I respect that. 
Have a great day!

Today is a great day to celebrate the good in the world.... American pastor Andrew Brunson is back on American soil!!!

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #268 on: October 13, 2018, 03:00:27 PM »
Wow, our author really sparks all sorts of lines of thought.  I don't begin to know enough about this complex problem to say anything sensible about the role of war in society, and its relation to good and evil, so I'll pass on that one.

But Bellamarie, you summed up nicely what I was trying to say about Davud:

These characters became evil, once they began doing their evil acts, regardless of their reasons.

Jonathan

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #269 on: October 13, 2018, 06:25:48 PM »
To look for the reasons one just gets mired in moral complexities. Such inspired posts from all of you. I hardly know what to add. Other than to wonder...were the Djinns, who caused so much mischief, on Davud's side? And wasn't Jahan lucky to get out of this alive and find his way back to Agra in time to help with the Taj Mahal. Still carrying the torch for Mirhimah.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #270 on: October 13, 2018, 06:51:05 PM »
Yes, the issue of war is a difficult one - the more I read about economics and the history of banking the more discouraged I get that we have any control over war but then yes, Pat that is not an issue we can really discuss - it is a monster.

Bellamarie as to understanding the childhood experience of Davud, yes, but then to see how he navigated his life with that experience having taken over as the rational for his purpose in life??? - It happens - we also have many real life examples of children watching the killing of their parents and thank God we do not have wholesale reactions where these damaged folks attempt to change their immediate world using, as their rational, their assessment of wrong doing. 

As to Davud's moral integrity - yep, personal - around 25 and 20 years ago (cannot believe it has been that long ago) I attended several 3 day workshops that were built on participants having a deeper understanding of various moral principles - two of those workshops included sitting around a table of only 5 and discussing among ourselves what integrity meant and then each table of 5 had to silently, with no words, however using some building blocks placed on each table, we acted out for the entire group the word integrity. We did this with other words as well, like honesty and fidelity etc. 

And so from that experience I've a personal connection - having a personal understanding of various words that describe moral behavior. What I do see is, as Pat says, once you cross the line and incorporate the benefits of acting the opposite of moral integrity it appears for many to seal their fate.

Golly who would have guessed this book would have us examining our inner most beliefs and the history we have learned - wow... I am so glad to be reading it with y'all - I'm not sure reading this on my own I would have questioned half of what we have discussed these last few weeks.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #271 on: October 13, 2018, 06:55:58 PM »
Jonathan see you posted - yes, quite a bundle of happenings - Janah to have lived such a long and useful life building is a story - do not know as much about building the Taj and to associate that finished product with the Mosques built all those years before - the Taj does seem lighter and more as if floating compared to the earth bound feeling I get from seeing photos of the Mosques of Istanbul. Are you curious as I am about the architectural design of the Tag Mahal? 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #272 on: October 14, 2018, 02:20:51 AM »
Youtube of the history and building of the Taj Mahal - Interesting the Shaw's name was Jahan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtBrFHU-Y3k
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #273 on: October 14, 2018, 02:35:04 AM »


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #274 on: October 14, 2018, 11:07:50 AM »
Jonathan
Quote
To look for the reasons one just gets mired in moral complexities.

Completely agree.  And each of us have our own personal perspectives, depending on our own experiences, and upbringing.  I felt our author kept with a theme of, They had their reasons,  which got a bit tiring for me.

PatH.
Quote
Wow, our author really sparks all sorts of lines of thought. 

Indeed she did!  A brilliant writer, in my opinion.

Barb,  Thank you for leading this discussion, as always you challenge us in ways we would not probably think about, if we read this book alone.  Thank you for all the links and pictures, they gave a great background to the history, and visuals to help us see the greatness in these mosques. 

I enjoyed the book and the discussion.  My hubby asked me, if I had to rate the book on a scale from 1 - 10 what would I give it?  I told him a 7.  He asked, why a 7?  I said, I loved the history, and the complex characters, but the ending fell short for me.  I did not like how the author took us off into a sorcery, unrealistic feel, although it fit well for the month of October and Halloween approaching.

Jonathan, PatH., and all who began with us, those who popped in if only to lurk, have a great Fall season, the holidays will be upon us faster than we know.

Can't wait to see what our next book will be. 

I'm off to the Appleumkin Festival in a small rural town of Tecumseh, Michigan.  Hoping to enjoy some Fall colors, smells and crisp air, along with the goodies to eat!!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #275 on: October 14, 2018, 02:48:03 PM »
My, oh my, oh my. There are so many ways to read this book. It's a love story. An old man's story. All brought back for him with the building of the Taj  Mahal. Shah and mahout building memorials to their lost loves, a beautiful taj and a heartbreaking tale.

The end for all of us comes without reason. It's more by chance that we fall away when the angels use their wings to cause the leaves to fall from the silver tree in paradise. That should be thought about.









PatH

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #276 on: October 14, 2018, 07:19:27 PM »
I didn't feel the magic, or curse, to be out of place, and to me the last part moved smoothly and satisfyingly to an unexpected but, in a way, very logical close.

The magic isn't exactly real, any more than the pigeon's dung cured Jahan's cuts.  Shafak builds on the fact that Sinan really did live to be about 100.  Everyone believed in magic, amulets, curses.  Hesna Khatun believed that she and Sinan both suffered from the curse of long life, and that she had cursed Jahan thus.  Jahan believes it too.  But it's perfectly possible, even though not very likely, that those two very tough characters just lived that long.

I've got more to say, including a theme we've underplayed, but it'll have to wait, maybe until tomorrow.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #277 on: October 14, 2018, 09:13:57 PM »
Anxious Pat - there was so much in this story and to realize there is an entire theme that can be looked at - wonderful - look forward to tomorrow

Jonathan heartbreaking in so many ways that love can be... never thought but yes, an old man's tale.

Bellamarie so glad you enjoyed the book and the discussion - and thanks for the kudos - it has been a good read with lots of sidebars.

Gotta run - late and Poldark is on TV... :)
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #278 on: October 15, 2018, 10:41:33 AM »
Khatun cursed Jahan to live a long life as well, and he did.  I had to think about this, back then they felt if you lived a long life it was because you were cursed for punishment.  Today we see living a long life as being blessed and favored.

I went to a small town Fall Appleumpkin Festival yesterday and was browsing all the antique shops.  Look what I came across.

I actually purchased this:  It's VHS, but I have a new VHS player so I can't wait to sit and watch this with my hubby one cold winter day.  He has never watched Gone With the Wind.


Here is one more cute thing, the writer in me loved:


Okay, enough, PatH., I look forward to hearing the theme you found in this story, we may have missed.


                                                 

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion
« Reply #279 on: October 15, 2018, 10:52:01 AM »
I also wanted to mention, last night I was watching Life, Liberty and Levin, his guest was George Gilder, who wrote a book called, Life After Google.  What an interesting show.  I am a techy person.  I taught Apple computers in a Catholic elementary school from 1984 - 2000.  So I was ground floor, bringing technology to our school.  I look back and see how far we have come just in the last eighteen years since I left teaching, and it would not amaze me if his visions/predictions are valid.  The one thing I strongly agree with is, artificial intelligence will never replace people, we will always need people to enter data, run the technological machines, etc.

Here is a link to read a little more about him and the book.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32073021-life-after-google?from_search=true 

I know our members in this book club are innovative and informative people, and I would like to suggest we tackle something like this in the near future.  It may be a bit over our heads, but our great minds could all work together in trying a stab at a book on technology, especially because it could give us a little insight into what our future could be in store for. 

We tackled the Ebola virus, Henrietta Lacks living cells, The Girls of Atomic City and the women in NASA, I think we are capable of taking on technology topics.  I saw the movie The Imitation Game, about Alan Turing, How Alan Turing Invented the Computer Age. In 1936, whilst studying for his Ph.D. at Princeton University, the English mathematician Alan Turing published a paper, “On Computable Numbers, with an application to the Entscheidungsproblem,” which became the foundation of computer science.

Who would be up for this challenge?  Maybe after the New Year??
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden