The Architect's Apprentice: A Novel by Elif Shafak Prediscussion

[BarbStAubrey]

Tartışmalarımıza Hoş Geldiniz (Welcome to our Discussion) A historical novel, brimming with all the intrigue, romance, beauty, power, pageantry and brutality of the Sixteenth century told through the eyes of Jahan, the apprentice to Sinan, the Architect and Mahout to the white elephant, gift to the Salton. “I work to honour the divine gift. Every artisan and artist enters into a covenant with the divine.” Sinan, Architect for three Sultans Discussion Schedule: Mon. & Tues., September 17 & 18.....To page 18 Tuesday, September 18...........Before the Master Tuesday, September 25...........The Master Monday October 1.....................The Dome - to page 256 Monday October 8.....................The Dome - page 257 to 331 Monday October 15...................After the Master

Helpful Links for reading and watching

“People must be walking now across the courtyards of the mosques, not knowing, not seeing.”

• Mosque of Selim II, Edirne (includes naming and explaining all architectural parts of a Mosque)
• A (6 min) story of Suleiman the Magnificent.
• 16th Century Ottoman, Safavid and Mughal, the three 'Gun-Power Empires' (10 min)
• Harem - How the Harem functions and became a Power Center within the Sultan's Imperial government
• Seven part (approx. 15 min each) story of Suleiman the Magnificent
• Discovery Channel documentary (5 hour) The History of the Ottoman
• Sufism - Islamic Mysticism (6 min)
• Janissaries (2 min)
• Janissaries the elite corps of the Sultan
• Mimar Sinan (2 min)
• Sinan, a short bio with links to his accomplishments
• Elif Safak, author

Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey

[BarbStAubrey]

A few Questions for us to consider..

• Our story starts near the end of Sinan's life - Sinan is age 85 - Given that Jahan at age 12, arrived in Istanbul the day that Suleiman the Magnificent became the new Salton, and this chapter is about the grandson of Suleiman taking on the role of Sultan, what age does that make Jahan?
• What do we learn from these first pages about the characteristics of Jahan?
• Who is Sheitan?
• What is a hamam?
• Who are what are viziers?
• These few pages are filled with description of how the senses intensify apprehension and fear. What quotes, words drive the intensity of a scene making more of the simple content of the scene.
• In the Ottoman Empire a policy of judicial royal fratricide was practiced when a new Sultan ascended to the throne. All of his surviving brothers are killed by strangulation with a silk cord as soon as he had produced his first male heir. Does this practice of killing siblings remind you of the Princes in the Tower in England? Starting with Cain and Able in history or myth what other brother kills brother over ascending the throne? What benefit was this practice to the Empire?
• What is a padishah versus a Salton versus a Califf?
• Can you, like Theseus with the ball of yarn from Ariadne, retrace the steps, that brought Jahan from the menagerie, as keeper of an elephant, sleeping with fleas, to the esteemed task of building a tomb in the grounds of the most significant mosque in Istanbul, Hagia Sophia at the Sulton's personal request. What was the path, the incidents, the characters, the sounds that united the two careers of Jahan? 

We know that all stories are told in the first sentence or paragraph or in this case, the un-named section and so, we know now to uncover winding storylines. The author has laid down her way of leading us through her story -

[Frybabe]

Just a quick aside before I start reading, Barb. I am interested in the article on the Janissaries (which I haven't completely finished reading yet). They showed up in one of the SciFi series I read a while back where many of the colonized worlds were founded by various religious, political or ethno groups were seeking worlds of their own where they would not have to deal with interference from others with different belief systems. Anyway, I didn't realize they were slave-warriors. Giving slaves weapons seems a bit dangerous for the power elite. I'm curious to see how they controlled them.

[Jonathan]

Good question, Frybabe...how did the power elite control the Janissaries? They became a power unto themselves. One is always hearing about the Janissaries. Much has been written about them, including this recent mystery by Jason Goodwin: The Janissary Tree. He also wrote A History of the Ottaman Empire.

Barb, you have set the most attractive table for this discussion. All those wonderful links!!! They will serve marvellously well as a magic carpet. And isn't it a marvel when you catch sight of the Haghia Sohpia, Istanbul's Statue of Liberty. Or rather, icon of wisdom? As seen through Jahan's eyes, in old age, in middle age, as a twelve-year-old. This is going to be a wild ride.

[PatH]

The link that sucked me in was the first one, the Mosque of Selim II, Edirne.  It's a nice clear explanation of the architectural parts.  And what a wonderful space that mosque is!  Sinan deserved every bit of his reputation.

Barb, it was a great idea to put times on all your youtube links.  It's a big help in picking what to watch next.

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting frybabe that science fiction would use a bit of reality - but then I do not read much science fiction so the genre may be built on real people, movements, times in history - As to the slave army - as I understand it this was a normal part of warfare - when you loose the victor blunders and takes children, also women as slaves. Here is the Americas the history of native tribes is full of this practice. I remember years ago in a museum in Victoria BC a native women and her grandson were at the exhibit that included dioramas of various ceremonies and daily living. I could overhear and she was explaining to her grandson, about 10 or 12 new information to him that she had been captured as a child from a tribe in Saskatchewan and she was not at all from the tribe that he and his family were part of.

As to the Janissary, as I understand they were captured as young boys and given the most elite training but they must not have all been captured slave boys since Sinan was a Janissary - His farther was captured where as Sinan was from either Istanbul or close by - I forget - anyhow his service in first the army and later he was promoted into the Janissary which was where he made his reputation as a builder - during various wars he erected bridges and other structures, all new ideas and that allowed the Ottoman's to win. As a result he came to the attention of the Sultan and one thing led to another.

Thanks Jonathan for your kind words - once we start to unravel what we are reading the research takes on a life of its own - the Haghia Sohpia - there are no words - and to realize this structure was built so long ago and is still visited - such a magnificent structure.

I thought of you when the book was included in our list - I remember a book discussion about a dome in Tuscany built during the renaissance, forget name of the book and the name of the structure and oh how awful, cannot think of the name of the architect - something that started with a B - anyhow there were only a few of us and as I recall and unfortunately the steam went out of the discussion. But I did remember you were engaged with the whole idea of the building of that dome - that was the first I even knew about the difficulty - never really thought about it and took those ceilings for granted.   

Pat yes, I too thought the link to the Mosque in Edime was a real help - I'm still not sure I understand squinches but I figured there will be enough information on various sites that I will be able to put it all together in my mind and figure it out. As to the links - the only one I do not have times is one of the more valuable about the Haram - in context it is well over an hour but it is broken up into very short segments that I have not timed - to put an index together for all those segments would be a feat and take up tons of space but it is for sure a documentary that can be successful watched in pieces.

The part of the story that starts on Wednesday includes a young girl and an older woman that to understand how the Haram functions really brings the story more depth and meaning. What shocked me was to learn that these women were captured. Says something about the bloodlines among the ruling class in Turkey since the mothers of these Sultans are from other lands and governing in Turkey continued the ways of the Sultans till the 1920s - talk about a cross roads of the world, even in generations of birth among this ruling class.

I guess we will find out as we get further into the book but I wondered why Elif Shafak starts with a time when Sinan is an old man and then goes into the chronological time line for Jahan - even more striking was to read how Jahan, who I have yet to calculate his age, the book only says he is in his 40s and yet, in my mind he acts like a teen or at most someone in their 20s and he is still an apprentice to Sinan - I guess that is a role he has till the death of Master Sinan.

[bellamarie]

Barb, you never seize to amaze me with your links, pictures and knowledge you provide when you are our discussion leader.  I always get a bit overwhelmed, thinking it's more than I am ready to tackle, only because it's usually a topic I know little to nothing about, but then as I begin, I realize I'm on the cusp of a real eye opener, and learning experience.  So let it begin....

While we all are taken a back with the brilliant cover of this book, we must not allow ourselves to miss even the slightest of words that this author has chosen to share with us, such as the opener:

For apprentices everywhere__no one told us that love was the hardest craft to master

Is there such a thing as mastering, love?  I fear not.  Many a poets have attempted to put "LOVE" into words over the centuries, and yet, I feel they too fall short of mastering it.  These for instance are wonderful attempts:

At one glance I loved you with a thousand hearts
. . . Let the zealots think loving is sinful
Never mind,
Let me burn in the hellfire of that sin.
                                                          _Mihri Hatun, sixteenth-century Ottoman poetess

I have searched the world and found nothing worthy of love,
hence I am a stranger amid my kinfolk
and an exile from their company.
                                                  _Mirabai, sixteenth-century Hindu poetess

And I too would like to add what I feel is an attempt to master "Love" by the greatest poet known, and the book most widely read ever.



I have to ask myself after reading these first introductory pages of this book, what exactly is this author referring to as Love?  Is he seeing love as an emotion, a person, a place, an object, an allusion, etc., etc. What do you, the reader see "Love" as?  Can it be all of these?  Can love be mastered, like a craft?

I have only read up through pages 1 & 2 of this book and I am blown away with the style of this author.  For some reason I still am finding myself seeing this author as a male, rather than a female.  Why is this?  Is it because I am concentrating too much on Sinan?  I guess only time will tell.

[bellamarie]

Oh my....... so here we are only on page one of the book and we are being told,

Of all the people God created and Sheitan led astray, only a few have discovered the Centre of the Universe__ where there is no good and no evil, no past and no future, no 'I'  and no 'thou', no war and no reason for war, just an endless sea of calm.  What they found there was so beautiful that they lost their ability to speak.

Is this not what Heaven/Paradise is described as?  Why would you need to speak with so much contentment?

The angels, taking pity on them, offered two choices.  If they wished to regain their voices, they would have to forget everything they had seen, albeit a feeling of absence would remain deep in their hearts.  If they preferred to remember the beauty, however, their minds would become so befuddled that they would not be able to distinguish the truth from the mirage.  So the handful who stumbled upon that secret location, unmarked on any map, returned either with a sense of longing for something, they knew not what, or with myriads of questions to ask.  Those who yearned for completeness would be called 'the lovers', and those who aspired to knowledge 'the learners'.

Hmmmm...... so much like the tree of knowledge, we learn about in the Garden of Eden, where Adam and Eve chose to pick of the fruit, this too, is a choice given to make.

Sin or no sin?  Knowledge or pure contentment?  Good or evil?  God or Satan?

Which would you see yourself choosing?

I wish I could look back and say that I have learned to love as much as I loved to learn.

Does our human nature draw us to chose knowledge, over love?  This sure leaves me with a lot to ponder.....and here we are, only on page one.

[BarbStAubrey]

"Love" - the more you think on it I bet this story is about love - and the complexity of how do you love when you know and experience fear and abandonment - all these slaves are adjusting yes, but they are isolated from their childhood and maybe from each other as they seek protection and acceptance from strangers that become over time their new family.

I guess some would bury themselves in their work just as we use any obsessive outlet to cover our pain - and others would simply adapt - if they were young their training in their new religion would simply be an extension of their former religious training for what it was at the time.

Yes, the words of love are a curiosity aren't they Bellamarie - We shall see how the author handles love but from the quick quotes in these first pages from Sinan, he seems to fit the expression of love from Corinthians -

Islam also has quotes on love - "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, you will not enter Paradise unless you believe, and you will not believe unless you love each other. Should I direct you to something that if you constantly did it, you would love each other? Spread the greetings of peace among you."

"Romantic love is very strong and emotional, but does not last, while real love is linked to the land and life and can withstand trials." He adds, "It is impossible that one adapts the powerful emotions in romantic love. This love seems like a cake, a person enjoys eating it, then it is followed by the period of downfall. While real love means sharing the concerns of daily life and cooperation for it to continue."

"The Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) once remarked to a man who had never kissed any of his ten children, "That shows, you have no mercy and tenderness at all. Those who do not show mercy to others will not have God's mercy shown on them".

"Exchange presents with one another, for they remove ill feelings from the hearts," said the Prophet."

Every aspect of love from Islam that I read seems to put Allah first and the profit Mohammad second before any other love. I guess that is like we say, "love God above all things, and love they neighbor as they self."

Did not know Sinan was married but we learn that he is not only married but even has a family in these first pages however, it sounds like our protagonist, Jahan is not married. We do learn the woman going blind, the kahya knows and loves all that is within the walls of this house and gardens, both human and non-human. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Been wrestling all day and evening witht the quote you gave us Bellamarie - "...only a few have discovered the Center of the Universe__ where there is no good and no evil, no past and no future, no 'I'  and no 'thou', no war and no reason for war, just an endless sea of calm."

I cannot imagine living for all of eternity is a place of calm - essentially with no opposites - the yin yang of war - as John Lennon sang, "Imagine all the people living life in peace." There is no creativity without opposites - creativity is change - creativity is personal growth - creativity touches angst, sadness and despair as much as, elation, desire, exaltation.

When we are creative, we use both our intuitive self and our analytical self, our left and right brain hemispheres at the same time. This not only quiets the mind, it engages it. An endless sea of calm can only assume we are surrounded with only perfection. To me that is really death - death of the spirit, mind and body - all we become is a feather on the Universe's coup stick. Even those who have experienced God felt a sense of fear and exaltation where as, the Center of the Universe as described is void of opposites, the yin and yang of existence.

[Jonathan]

Whom do we find at the Sultan's court?

'Lions, monkeys, hyenas, flat-horned stags, foxes, ermines, lynxes, wild goats, wildcats, gazelles, giant turtles, roe deer, ostriches, geese, porcupines, lizards, rabbits, snakes, crocodiles, civets, the leopard, the zebra, the giraffe, the tiger and the elephant.' p5

And their human counterpoints? Certainly  one old man dreaming about the Centre of the Universe, and love and learning. Actually, we are told, he's in Agra, India, and the year is 1632, almost a hundred years after he had arrived in Istanbul at the age of 12. Then we are told he was 'past forty', when our story begins, on the night the young princes met their death, the unfortunate brothers of the new Sultan, Murad III. The night the cat growled, frightening everybody.

The old man had come to Istanbul at the age of twelve, about the year 1536, sixteen years into the reign of Sultan the Magnificent. Now Jahan is back in India pondering on love and learning, damned if you do and damned if you don't. Do we want to know his secret? Then we must return to Istanbul where he left it. Let the story begin.

[Jonathan]

'When we are creative, we use both our intuitive self and our analytical self....'

You're getting to the heart of things with that, Barb. That's central to our story, isn't it?

[PatH]

This book is going to keep us on our toes, keeping track of when and where and who.  After a brief visit to the timeless center of everything, we are in Agra, 1632, 44 years after Sinan's death, listening to the almost 100 year old Jahan reminiscing.

Then Istanbul, 1574, when Jahan is about forty, told through Jahan's eyes, then Sinan's housekeeper and Sinan.  In the next section we'll go backward to the twelve year old Jahan, just arriving in Istanbul.

I think I'd better make a timetable.

[BarbStAubrey]

hmm Jonathan hadn't thought of that in reference to the story but yes, I can see it. Lots of threads to follow

And wow thanks - I missed reading the date and putting it together that he was in his very old age writing from India.

Finally looked up Agra, India on the Google Map and as I guessed, it is in the far north of India which would have been in the swath of land that the Muslim's held since the Islamic invasion in the 12th century and so Jahan grew up speaking and knowing the same as in Istanbul. But more I never knew where exactly the Taj Mahal was located and there it is on the banks of the Yamuna river in Agra, India which appears to be the crossroads as if all roads lead to Agra. The streets are not photographed as in most other nations so I cannot travel up and down the streets of Agra to get a feel - there are a few locations photographed and the bazaar area is sad, boarded up and neglected however, this is 400 years after our story.

Jonathan did you read anything specific about this being Jahan's memory story - I'm thinking that is what we have here with the way the story is laid out starting with Jahan in his old age in India - that we are seeing this story as his memory tale - it will be interesting to see if there are any other narrators to the story.

OH dear the idea you brought to our attention Bellamaire really take over my thinking and still cannot get the idea of the the Center of the Universe being and endless sea of calm and now that Jonathan reminds us that we will be using our inner duality of the intuitive and analytical self - back to duality - hmm brings into question the concept of Peace on Earth - sheesh with that in mind I am anxious to see how Elif Shafak continues - sounds to me like the goal is to find the secret that is the Center of the Universe a place of unity and oneness.

Pat do you think that is the secret that the story will be uncovering? Oh you just posted - yes, yes, yes time table - sounds like we are reading the bio of Jahan doesn't it... that is some life span - it will be interesting to uncover why the story includes many years after the death of Sinan.

Callie I bet you are well past this early part of the book - while you were reading was there anything in these first 18 pages that stood out to you?  Where there words you ended up having to look up - seems to me kindle has a quick and easy way of clicking on a word and  the definition pops up in a small window.

Frybabe is your family visit still going strong - does your family who lived in the path know if their home is safe? Frybabe did you ever read The Night Circus the closest thing I've read to science fiction in recent years - there was something about these first pages in this book that reminded me of The Night Circus - maybe it was the effective way both authors had of setting a mysterious and anxiety provoking mood with words.

youetb hope you were able to get your copy - we would love it if you would pop in -

Finally the sun is out with no more threat of rain - not yet as hot as it will be this afternoon - summer is back...

[Frybabe]

Barb, the last they heard, on Friday, is that their street was not flooded. Bud that was Friday. They keep tabs at their utility website to see if the power has been restored yet. As of yesterday it wasn't. At any rate, Wilmington is next to impossible to get in or out of right now, although they found a way to get some tracker trailers in with supplies and such for the stranded. I don't think that route is open to anything else. They hope to start back down on the weekend and find a place to stay closer in.

I did try to read The Night Circus, but didn't care for it. It is more Fantasy than SciFi, I think.

BTW, a Hamam is a Turkish Bath. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cqI9VivNKms (1:13)

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, I had to giggle, it was as if the Sultan's court was Noah's Ark, it made me think of the line from The Wizard of Oz, "Lions and tigers and bears, oh my!"

So, I guess I feel a bit silly asking, but why are they murdering all those boys, on The Sultan Murad III's orders? 

Barb, as best as I am understanding, I felt as if the Centre of the Universe is intended to be Heaven.  You really don't need any opposites in Heaven, you will live in calm and harmony.  No, 'I' nor 'thou' is needed.  We all live together as one, and God provides us with all that we need. 

It sure does have the same undertones of the song you mentioned by John Lennon, Imagine.  Very perceptive don't you think?  Although, I have to say I never was a big John Lennon fan, since he lived his life high on drugs, and, I don't think he did believe in a Heaven. But, I think he may have been on to something with this song.
 
Let's look at his song in it's entirety:

Imagine
John Lennon, Plastic Ono Band

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace, you

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharing all the world, you

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Songwriters: John Winston Lennon
Imagine lyrics © Downtown Music Publishing, BMG Rights Management
https://www.google.com/search?q=lyrics+to+john+lennon%27s+song+imagine&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS722US722&oq=lyrics+to+John+Lennon%27s+song+Imagine&aqs=chrome.0.0.9431j0j8&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Interesting question, is this story Jahan's.

[bellamarie]

Frybabe, as best as I can see, they are not allowing residents to return in Wilmington as yet.  They expect the flood waters to rise even more so by Friday.  Your family may want to stay there with you a bit longer.  I've been watching the coverage on TV, and the devastation is beyond comprehensible.  The goodness of our country, and human nature, always arises to the tasks, in times like these.   

[PatH]

why are they murdering all those boys, on The Sultan Murad III's orders?

They were his father's sons, maybe by other wives, so they were possible rivals to inherit the throne.  It seems to have been common to have gotten rid of possible takeovers of power in this way.

[PatH]

I haven't checked out Barb's links yet, but harem court politics seem to have been a horrid mess of rivalry, scheming, and treachery.

[CallieOK]

Barb,  I haven't found as much time as I'd hoped to "get into" the book.  Not reading on a kindle but haven't found any problem words so far.
Much to the dismay of my English teachers through the years, I have never been able to recognize deeper meanings or references in literature but will thoroughly enjoy reading the comments from those of you who do.  Good Brain Exercise for me!   

Hope all of those affected by the flood waters are now safe.  Quite a few rescue teams from Oklahoma are there to help...including one or two groups who took big trucks outfitted as kitchens so they can prepare and serve hot meals where needed. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Good Callie - someone has to see the story for what it is - we can get hip deep in analogies and metaphors to other books, thoughts and even current affairs can't we - We can depend on you to remind us of the obvious - great - really great.

Bellamarie the words to Lennon's song are really quite wonderful - at the time their music was so bound up in the culture that unless you were in collage or younger during that time it was not easy sorting it out was it.

And Pat nailed it on the death of siblings when the new Salton has a son of his own - similar to the killing of the young princes in the tower of London.


When you Google royal fratricide there is a nice explanation - evidently there were many wars that were waged for years at a great cost and loss of life between brothers when a father died and to avoid war this was the practice - one example of this practice is offered as Cain and Able along with Romulus and Remus.

Here is a link explaining further the practice of History of Fratricide in the Ottoman Empire

Frybabe looking at the bright side you are having a nice long visit although I can imagine everyone is probably on edge - hope all turns out well - and thanks - for the definition - when I was reading I mixed up the Hamam with the Harem because it seems as best I could dope it out from the various youtube videos there are Hamam's in the Harem - I do need to finally look up viziers - they are evidently some lesser position to an apprentice.

Tomorrow we start on the section called Before the Master - I've almost finished reading this section - decided that the last few books worked out better If I glanced over them and found the breaks than read to enjoy and discover using our schedule - that way the questions while reading become apparent since most of our head questions are answered as we read.

[bellamarie]

Thank you PatH., for answering my questions about the killing of the young boys.  How sad. 

Barb after you mentioning the questions, I read through them and realized my answer was also in your questions.  Never heard of Fratricide before.  Look at me, already learning new things.

Callie, not so much credit to my former English teachers, I have always been curious, and dug deep for more meanings than what is obvious in the books I read.  I always saw myself in this metaphor used in a couple of Shakespeare's plays: 

"Curiosity killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back." I can never get enough information.  I am a novice writer, and it may be in my DNA.  I have one of those Ancestry DNA kits my kids gave to me for my birthday, one day I will send it in and find out if I may have long lost famous writers in my heritage. 

I have to tell you when Jahan decided to go beyond that wall to investigate the sounds of what was stirring up all the animals, I was a bit on the edge of my seat.  I never expected to find out there were bodies in those sacks.  He was lucky Sinan saved him from the Sultan Murad III, giving him an alibi as to why he was there.  Interesting how it got him to be chose to build the tomb.  I guess you could say, "Right place, at the right time."  Although, he was surely in the wrong place, at the wrong time, had Sinan not lied for him, he may have ended up in one of those sacks.

[BarbStAubrey]

Today we go further into our story and there are more historical characters.

Shah Humayun is one of the more famous from Northern India - if anyone can find a youtube bio in which we could understand the speaker, please share - so far, the bio's I've found the speaker has such a strong accent I have no clue what he is saying however, did find this fine video about the tomb of Shah Humayun - read along the way there are 100 tombs on the site of the temple and gardens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCLEFJU1p5A

Had to look up the word 'benison' on page 47 and it means blessings.

We are treated to another novel way of story telling - a story within a story as Jahan tells the story of his youth in India and the birth of his elephant - which did prompt me to find out yes, an elephant gestation is usually 95 weeks - wow - however, this special elephant took 3 years to be born - double the amount of time - loved how the elephant needed to be encouraged and how Jahan went about creating a safe welcome -

OK no questions this time - I think there is enough that as we share there will be conversation - have fun in sixteenth century India...

[BarbStAubrey]

Did find this youtube giving us photos and explanation of the 15 important locations to visit in India that starts out with the tomb of the Shah Humayun

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FENeq65zst8

[bellamarie]

Those tombs are amazing!

[Frybabe]

The "Before the Master" section, so far, is not holding my interest at all. I expect when we get to the architect and Jahan's apprenticeship I will perk up some.

[BarbStAubrey]

I agree with you Frybabe - I'm struggling - but then I never was much for stories from or about India - even the architecture in India is not as interesting - the Taj but that was commissioned almost 100 years later, in the seventeenth century - after seeing the photos of the Mosques and other buildings in the Ottoman Empire the Taj almost looks pure decorative like the top of a wedding cake 

One thing I am picking up is the fearful nature that was ascribed to the reason for waiting for the birth of the elephant reminded me of the fear Jahan showed while hiding in the Salton's rooms and as the Salton was described as a man to fear that matched the uncle or step-father - and so that said to me, authority is inclined to bully and to expect their own comfort above all else. The order of things was not at all democratic and those who were to serve an authoritarian figure were fearful and put up with the severe control of the authoritarian figure.

Comparing the Jahan of this section, a young boy, to the Jahan of those first 18 pages, a middle aged man, in what ways did you notice Jahan showed he changed with maturity?

I've a few more pages to read in this section and it is already Thursday - we shall see where others are by tomorrow, Friday and maybe we should push on to the next section, The Master on Monday or at least by Tuesday.

[bellamarie]

I have not completed Before the Master section.  I am not finding it at all boring or slow.  Jahan is just a little boy, commissioned to take care of this elephant.  He sure has his work cut out for him.  Then to find out that Al-Sultan al-Azam Humayun has lost the throne and worries if Sultan Suleiman will ship the elephant back.  Luckily for him and the elephant the palace has never had a "white" elephant, so it will remain.

It's interesting how the author has shown Jahan has no experience in any of the positions he has been given, and luck seems to always be on his side, from the Sinan giving him an alibi for being in the cave with the sacks of dead bodies, to being chosen to accompany this elephant, lies and says the Captain taught him to speak their language, and then being chosen to be an apprentice with no skills.

Is it believable?  How happenchance can one person's life be?

Comparing the Jahan of this section, a young boy, to the Jahan of those first 18 pages, a middle aged man, in what ways did you notice Jahan showed he changed with maturity?

I haven't finished this section yet, but it appears Jahan in both sections has a lot to fear.  He takes chances that are dangerous and could get him killed, and now the Captain has told him he must steal from the palace. 

I will try to finish this section today and come back later.  Not sure what my hubby has in store for us, he is like the energizer bunny......go, go, go.  No off switch, til he lays his head down on his pillow. 

 

[Frybabe]

"Before the Master" get more interesting to me farther on in the section. I just wasn't much interested in the tale he was spinning for her highne ss. Nor was I too happy about him pilfering things for that Captain  even thought the guy hasn't shown up in a year, although given the time it took to sail anywhere and back would have been quite lengthy. Which makes me wonder, there was no Suez Canal back then, so where did they off load the elephant? Did they sail around the Cape and into the Mediterranean or deposit their cargo at a port in the Red Sea or Gulf of Persia and then travel overland? Overland to the Mediterranean coast and re-embark on a different ship?

[BarbStAubrey]

Interesting thought - you are right Frybabe - no Suez Canal - there are several stories of folks sailing from Italy to the Far East - I wonder now that you brought it up how they did it...

Yes, Bellamarie we are left in mid air with the demands of the captain who has a very different imagination of how easy it would be probably thinking Jahan will be housed in the sumptuous surroundings he expects - since the story opens with scenes during which time Jahan is in his 40s I immediately downgraded the captains threat. Yes, Jahan carries out the wishes of those in authority but as he was protected by Sinan, his master and escaped his step father and tried to protect his mother I expected he would be conscientious about stealing for the captain - so far I've not read any more about the captain. It will be interesting to read just what did happen. With the layers of gardens and rooms between where Jahan lives and the streets I'm wondering how likely it is that the Captain could even gain access but then who knows, some of the others taking care of the animals could be the captains inside man so to speak.

Bellamarie seems to me that whole story of learning the language from the captain is a wily bit of subterfuge - we know that Jahan is from Northern India and for about 400 years that area of India included what is now Pakistan and parts of Afghanistan, that entire swath across the north of India was a Muslim based mostly in Delhi for 320 years (1206–1526)- where as just south of this area was located the Satavahanas who ruled the area since 300 or more years BC and was a Buddhist area. And to the south where trade and literature were always at their peak and also the Pearl industry the religion was Hinduism.

The Satavahanas and the various kingdoms in the south were always protecting themselves form either the Mongol hordes or the Muslims from the north - my guess is rather than create an immediate enemy with the one Indian guy who offered the hand of friendship upon his arrival at the Sultan's menagerie Jahan did not let on he was from northern India but rather said he leaned the language from the Captain. I bet he did learn some words and ways of expressing things, a difference that probably existed between how he spoke compared to the version Jahan was hearing spoken by the Ottomans.

Well here I had all these plans for today and it is raining again - raining hard - never thought I would say this but I am tired of all this rain - I'll take the heat over this - so now I can without guilt get back to the book during the day today and so for that it is a good thing - just need to make another pot of coffee - hmm I wonder if Istanbul in the sixteenth century served Turkish coffee - something else to look up.   

[BarbStAubrey]

Here is a map by Al Masudi - a famous Arab traveler and historian who lived at the end of the 10th century.

"Al Masudi was a descendent of Abdullah Ibn Masud, a companion of Prophet Muhammed. He was born and educated in Baghdad during the reign of Caliph Al Mu’tadid (892-904 CE).

At the turn of the ninth century, the Islamic world extended from Spain to the borders of India, but it was like a giant banyan tree decaying from within.

The Abbasid Caliphs in Baghdad had lost their hold on vast territories. The Aghlabids in Tripoli (Northern Africa) were independent all but in name. The Fatimids, after establishing themselves in North Africa, were advancing towards Egypt.

Far away Spain enjoyed the zenith of  its power under Abdur Rahman III, who had declared his own claim to the Caliphate.

Closer to home, the Shia Buyids ruled in Southern Iraq and for a while occupied Baghdad itself (945CE). The Sassanids had established themselves in Bokhara and competed with the Abbasids in establishing centers of learning and culture in their realm.

The nomadic Turks, (Islamic) facing drought in their Central Asian homelands, were on the move, crossing Amu Darya (major river in Central Asia) in large numbers into Farghana (fertile valley ruled by a Mongol, a Khan descendant now divided between Tajikastan and Uzbekistan) and Northeastern Persia.

A couple of thoughts - everything we read the Portuguese were the first to create sea lanes all the way to Japan during the sixteenth century - their ships, the Caravels did require deeper water - the voyage around the horn was only known in the mid 13th century and so even Al Masudi would have no knowledge of that journey to show on his map.

 Since we know Christoper Columbus was still looking for a quicker and direct route to south Asia and the Indian continent in the very late 15th century and the book talked of at least a 2 month sea voyage it looks like the voyage had to have gone around the horn of Africa and through the length of the Mediterranean - whew - no wonder the elephant was in bad shape upon arrival. 

[BarbStAubrey]

Aha - just read an excerpt from the Gazetteer of India and the Levant connected India's trading good with Europe - the ports of Basra and the ports on the Red Sea. India traded, textiles, indigo and pepper - the big Abyssinian slave trade to India was from Yeman.

Maybe the journey was partially overland   

[BarbStAubrey]

aha The Cholas were a dynasty in Southern India from late 800 to mid 1200s - and so the name for the elephant did not come out of the blue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVG542d0Gwg

[bellamarie]

The name of the elephant Chota, did not come out of the blue.... Jahan told us he was named this, because it meant "little".  Chota was born two sizes smaller than any other baby elephant.

Well, I finished the section and I am just mesmerized with this story.  This section has so much in it I don't even know where to begin.  I loved the story Jahan told to Princess Mihrimah.  Did he embellish to keep her interest?  Maybe so, but he sure had me as interested in it, as he did Mihrimah. 

So he had an abusive step-father/uncle, who beat his mother to death knowing she was pregnant.  How horrible.  He decides to stow away in a crate so he can be on the ship with Chota.  He is brave for such a young lad, but then to be raised in a house where beatings were plenty, I suppose it would give you courage and strength beyond your young age.  I loved how Jahan thought to suckle the mother elephant and then give to Chota to help her survive until she was tall enough to reach her mother's teats.  That is a bond that would explain all the reasons Jahan takes dangerous acts to be with Chota. 

There are so many tender moments in this section.  This author sure has me emotionally involved in the relationship not only between Jahan and Chota, but also with Jahan and the Princess.  He has lied once again to try to save the elephant, only to find himself and Chota off to war.  Dear me, I can't wait to see where this takes us.

Frybabe, I'm glad you found this section more interesting as you read further. 

Barb, I love rain, but I suppose if I had it as much as you have, it wouldn't be so welcoming.  We bought a two tier water fountain and placed it in our front yard, right beneath our bedroom window.  At night I fall asleep to the sounds of the water, which sounds like it a subtle rain outside.  Your rain, book and coffee sounds so inviting.  I spent the morning pulling weeds in my flower gardens, and planting a tree my dil gave to us.  We are off to a granddaughter's volleyball game now, so no rest for me today.  Be back later.   

[Jonathan]

Me too. Mesmerized that is, by the book and by what you all are making of it.

'...no wonder the elephant was in bad shape upon arrival.'

He had to be coaxed into being born into this world. Now he is about to be taught how to trample the Sufi preacher to death! After being fussed over by the princess. While the reader wonders if the architect of the Taj Mahal consulted Jahan while working on the mausoleum. After all. Jahan had worked with the illustruous Sinan. But now, at the age of twelve, there's larceny in his heart. Steal some of the Sultan's jewels, go home to India and murder his uncle. A very normal twelve-year-old. Should be a lot of action ahead. What did you think of the Sufi's preaching. For that he should die?

[bellamarie]

Jonathan, I thought the whole dialogue between Majnun Shaykh and the Grand Mufti was much like Pilate deciding to crucify Jesus.  Jesus refused to to say he was the King of the Jews, much like Shaykh refused to admit he was speaking sacrilegiously about God.

Grand Mufti, like Pontius Pilate, did not want to kill Shaykh, he gave him one last chance to save himself.

Pg. 66  "We give you a last chance,' said the Grand Mufti.  "If you admit you have been speaking sacrilegiously about God and swear to never say such obscenities again, you might be forgiven.  Now tell me, once and forever, do you repent?"

Shaykh, much like Jesus, was not going to appease the accusers, he replies:

"What for?" said Majnun Shaykh, his shoulders straightening as he seemed to make a decision.  "I love the Beloved as the Beloved loves me.  Why feel remorse for love?  Surely there are other things to rue.  Avarice.  Ruthlessness.  Deception.  But love . . . ought not be regretted."

pg. 68  In the end, Majnun Shaykh and his nine disciples were executed by hanging.

Interesting how our author felt it necessary to include this into the story.  What was her reason for this?  To show the elephant was not meant to kill, since the Grand Mufti wanted Chota to be responsible for the execution of these men?  A comparison of Pointius Pilate refusing to execute Jesus, so he asks the crowd who he should release Barabbas or Jesus.  A bit much, if I say so myself.

[bellamarie]

Good Morning to you all.  Where is everyone in reading this section "Before the Master"?  I see in the schedule we are to begin the next section on Wed.  I'm thinking we will be able to go on before that if everyone is in agreement.  What are your thoughts Barb?  I don't want to hurry us along, there is certainly a lot to take in from this section.

[Jonathan]

What a book!! What a storyteller. You're right, Bellamarie...' there is certainly a lot to take in from this section.'

It is in fact a bit overwhelming to find ourselves at the court of Suleiman the Magnificent. In Istanbul. Will we get to see the magnificence? It seems more like a dangerous place to be. Bodies everywhere. Five dead princes. Later there will be nineteen more, we're told. The sufi and nine followers hanged in the public square. The animals disoriented because their cages are kept too clean. Talk about things that go bump in the night? A tiger growls. A woman screams and then falls silent. The death squad of deaf mutes, mutilated themselves, doing their dirty work. As for the rest of the cast, the Viziers, Muftis, the eunuchs, heaven help us...

A surprise on every page. I opened the book at random, and find this:

'One afternoon, immersed in thought, Jahan walked back from the palace school to the menagerie. As he approached his shed, he heard a cough that froze his blood. When he entered, he found Captain Gaveth waiting for him. "Look who's comin? Surprise! I'm back from the deep. I thought I'd better see how my little  thief was doing. He must have missed me.'

No, he hasn't, Captain. He's too distracted by other things.

[BarbStAubrey]

Bellamarie you comments on the reference to the Bible had me curious - earlier there was the reference to the two mothers and who cared about the child that was destined to be split - well it came together - I think this is Shafak's way of subtlety letting us know that the Port is a Portuguese stronghold - This is the staging area in India that Portugal fought for several times and finally won and is their jump off place to the entire Asian coastline.

Just south of the Port city is another city named Vasco da Gama where today the airport is located. The biggie is the entire area is riddled with Catholic churches going back to the sixteenth century - more Catholic churches by far than temples much less a mosque. So one down how many more to go...

Looks like Jonathan you stumbled upon one of the mystery questions - does the Captain return for his... Looking forward to that bit - should be interesting - how does Jahan escape death promised by this Captain if Jahan does not come through with stolen loot.

When the Salton's daughter, Princess Mihrimah suggested to Jahan he should have stretched out his story as the telling of the 1001 Nights of course the question comes to mind, when was it written - found this delightful children's site that does say the tales are a collection of stories that were compiled during what was called The Golden Age, from the 8th to the 12th century
http://www.pookpress.co.uk/project/arabian-nights-one-thousand-and-one-nights/

[BarbStAubrey]

Well let's continue with our reading schedule and just move the date up to the next section from Wednesday to Tuesday - that way since most of us are busy over the weekend we have Monday to share whatever buzzes around in her head as a result of reading this section, Before the Master - ahum Two Years Before the Mast
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/335397.Two_Years_Before_the_Mast

But look at this folks - there are a couple of sketches showing us life aboard a ship during the sixteenth century
https://www.newworldexploration.com/explorers-tales-blog/life-at-sea-in-the-16th-century

I do not quite get that picture of the sea voyage to Istanbul but then Jahan and Chota are in the hold not in the sailor's quarters and we are seeing all this through the eyes of Jahan.

Fascinating about the book Verranzzano's Horizon along the right side of the page are all the topics that when you click on any one of them all the information is there - not sure if this is the entire book online but there is much information.