Author Topic: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!  (Read 18478 times)

BarbStAubrey

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Shadow of the Silk Road

Come on along with us - Monday, March 11
We're joining Colin Thubron on his 7,000 mile journey along the greatest land route on earth. Out of the heart of China into the mountains of Central Asia, across northern Afghanistan and the plains of Iran and into Kurdish Turkey.

   Reading Schedule
March 11 - 17..... Pages 1 - 95
March 19 - 24..... Pages 96 - 150
March 25 - 31..... Page 154 - 218
April 1 - 8............ Page 219 - 344
April 9 - 10.......... Wrap-up

Topics to Note and Discuss
1. SARS virus and impact on the author’s journey
2. Inventions spread East and West
3. Behaviors and Values of the Chinese people
4. Characters met along the way
5. Caves and Objects at Dunhuang
6. Religions and Places of Worship found along the way
7. The various means of Transportation
8. Add any additional 'Legends and Myths' of Ruins, Monuments, Tribes and Historical Individuals

Discussion Leaders: BarbStAubrey
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Woman hooking cocoons of silk

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Green jade with an imperial poem. Qing dynasty, Emperor Qianlong.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Started this next section last night but wanted to say the second chapter of the last week's read was not only short but really no travel revelations as much as observation and opinion of how the people were handling their life with the influx of Han Chinese  - I guess the resentment is for all of us the un-natural, and paid migrat6in that is planned to change a society.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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I have passed Torugart Pass and am spending the night at Tash Rabat. When I did an images search on Google, I came up with a lot of good photos people posted to Pinterest including one that showed a truck hauling scrape metal like the ones mentioned in the book. I take it Silk Road guided tours are rather popular from the number of photos and blogs I am running across.

This is a nice blog with lots of pictures of the Tash Rabat caravanserai. https://www.timetravelturtle.com/tash-rabat-caravanserai-kyrgyzstan/  I am guessing this guy does freelance writing and what not, not to mention being sponsored for some of these trips. This is his life, and he is very good at it. https://www.timetravelturtle.com/about/ 

And here is Wikipedia's post about Manas, who is greatly revered by the Kyrgyz people. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_of_Manas  I found an English translation on Amazon, actually, it appears to be an English translation of a Russian translation, but it still gets better marks than Walter May's translation which one customer claimed did not keep the sing-song quality of the narrative. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMDklwoLf34#t=1m29s

PatH

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I now have a shiny new knee.  SUrgery went well, and if all goes well, can go home this afternoon.

PatH

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You two are having such a fantastic discussion.  It makes me jealous there is never enough time to keep up.  You really have to invest in this book to keep track of the geography and cast of characters.

BarbStAubrey

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Thanks so much Pat for letting us know all went well - wow this afternoon - it must be so much nicer to recoup at home - love your observations - just adds a sparkle -

Frybabe I just got lost in the link that included the list by century of all the prose poems - it was my childhood - never realized but different than even my children's education we either read or had read to us or memorized many prose poems and I loved them - had to renew and even found on line, where for very little cost, two of the poems are available in old books from 1905  and 1911 - that too- I love those old cloth bound books.

Included in the link to Epic Poetry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry in the 'see also' is 'Epic Fiction' and under it is 'List of Epic Poems" and there is so much of my childhood. I can see our 7th grade nun reading aloud to us Longfellow's Evangeline - We read and memorized so many Longfellow long poems - 6th Grade it was The Courtship of Miles Standish - and I can see him now as my father, when he was feeling happy and he would burst into quoting the entire Paul Revere's Ride and another The Wreck of the Hesperus that he almost acted out with gusto - it was not till years later I realized how sad was the story but then my father would have learned these poems in his early years of primary school, 3rd or 4th grade.

My mom knew large sections of the Song of Hiawatha - and just the opposite, days when she was weary or on wash days she would quote the poem.

And of course in 8th grade we all had to memorize Aurora Leigh and we read for a book report Song of Myself.

On hot summer days under the cool shade of the front porch where no adult could squeeze reading from our 6th and 7th grade summer reading list, Joan of Arc and the wonderful Song of Roland and Tennyson's Idylls of the King.

When I was very young, before I understood what the poem was all about and we were till speaking German my Grandmother in her soft way would seem to disappear into herself and quote in German from  Deutschland: Ein Wintermärchen/Germany: A Winter's Tale - When I saw the author I was shocked - had no idea this was a poem by Heinrich Heine.

Und als uch die deutsche sprache vernahm
Da ward mir seltsam zumute

And then in High School, I think Senior year, we read Tristram of Lyonesse - oh the romance of it... Although not an epic poem Freshman year we read Ivanhoe followed the next year was Hamlet, Junior year was, Macbeth and sprinkled in usually in the Spring of the year, there was John Brown's Body, Crane's The Bridge and Sandburg's The People, Yes and of course being a Catholic High School we read The Ballad of the White Horse by G.K. Chesterton along with the wonderful The Lady of Shalott

So that frybabe with that last link, showing those performing the Manas, the video also brought back memories of that sing song way the Sister Rose Imelda would stop us everytime to hear the lines and concentrate on the whole line, not just rhyming line endings, and to think of it as if we were giving a speech with emphasis rather than singsonging. I remember being so disappointed and not wanting to express my disappointment with my children's education not reading or being exposed to this bounty of literature - they did not read these epics in school any longer much less memorize lines - I often think it was the beginning of the dumbing down - to my way of thinking the modern literature they did read was stuck in the latest social issue rather than seeing these issues in a historical context by reading some of these epic poems.   

I took so long writing this as again, I had to quote and look up to remind myself of sections - how much fun this has been. And to think folks are still doing this as public entertainment. Hmm I wonder - is it because they do not watch TV and are still living among their extended families - but then he did share earlier how one couple was probably going to move away to a city - I wonder, is it the break up of family that makes a change in continuing traditions.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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The last line of Chapter 7 is particularly interesting and thought provoking: "A nation, as the philosopher Renan said, is bound not by the real past, but the stories it tells itself; by what it remembers, and what it forgets."

I am in Samarkand now. A name that stirs the imagination and begs us to hop a magic carpet and ride back to the time of grand palaces and moguls, of romance and intrigue.  Samarkand, the ultimate marketplace, where East met West.  Haunts of the great Tamerlane who the author calls a megalomaniac. Someone who I know of, but not anything about.  I think I will do a little Googling about Samarkand tomorrow.

This is one of those books that reminds us that there are whole other worlds out there that we never heard about or heard just so inconsequentially that it never stirred us to look deeper.

Did you notice that Thubron gets a little distressed about old ruins getting paved over with the new, and old customs being replaced or marginalized or made into tourist attractions?

Hi Pat, thanks for the update. I hope you were able to get home this afternoon, and hope to see you posting tomorrow.

Frybabe

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Silk Road tours appear to be popular. Take your pick of Your Tube or Vimeo videos. There are quite a few. These are two I picked out.

Samarkand video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KpE1JJIavVkl

The people, history and culture of Uzbekistan - Traveling the Silk Road | DW Documentary  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoH2bU9xADg German documentary, very interesting.

I get the impression, or is it just the people the Thubron chose to chronicle, that quite a few people miss the Communists.

I ran across a bunch of trailers for a move called The Tashkent Files. It is about the suspicious death of Indian Prime Minister Shastri  in Tashkent in 1966. The movie is apparently causing an uproar in India and Pakistan. 

BarbStAubrey

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A caravanserai was a roadside inn with a central courtyard, where travelers in the desert regions of Asia or North Africa could rest and recover from the day's journey.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Kyrgyz


 
At Festival


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Chatyr lake



Bactrain Camel



Manas - hero who united Kyrgyzstan


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Maracanda early nineteenth century
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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For heaven's sake Edgar Allen Poe wrote a poem Tamerlane, 27 versus - published in 1827 in his first published book of poetry.
Here is an excerpt
TAMERLANE.

 I HAVE sent for thee, holy friar;
But 'twas not with the drunken hope,
Which is but agony of desire
To shun the fate, with which to cope
Is more than crime may dare to dream,
That I have call'd thee at this hour:
Such, father, is not my theme—
Nor am I mad, to deem that power
Of earth may shrive me of the sin
Unearthly pride hath revelled in—
I would not call thee fool, old man.
But hope is not a gift of thine;
If I can hope (O God! I can)
It falls from an eternal shrine.

The gay wall of this gaudy tower
Grows dim around me—death is near.
I had not thought, until this hour
When passing from the earth, that ear
Of any, were it not the shade
Of one whom in life I made
All mystery but a simple name,
Might know the secret of a spirit
Bow'd down in sorrow, and in shame.—
Shame, said'st thou? Ay, I did inherit
That hated portion, with the fame,
The worldly glory, which has shown
A demon-light around my throne,
Scorching my sear'd heart with a pain
Not Hell shall make me fear again.

I have not always been as now—
The fever'd diadem on my brow
I claim'd and won usurpingly—
Ay—the same heritage hath given
Rome to the Cæsar—this to me;
The heirdom of a kingly mind—
And a proud spirit, which hath striven
Triumphantly with human kind.
  In mountain air I first drew life;
The mists of the Taglay have shed (2)
Nightly their dews on my young head;
And my brain drank their venom then,
When after day of perilous strife
With chamois, I would seize his den
And slumber, in my pride of power,
The infant monarch of the hour—
 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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As exotic as all this sounds the reality that Colin is experiencing is far less than exotic - even though they complained continuously about the Han Chinese, the section about Kashgar and Turkestan and the Uighuristan appears to be more pleasant than this area where the Soviets were entwined in the area - not that it was just the Soviet influence, it seems the people are lost and don't sound like they know who they are nor, does their history sound as full as the Uighur's - maybe because they're religious history was denounced as one group after another controlled the area. When it comes down to it praying to the sky really is not all that big a problem. 

Still have 18 pages to read in Samarkand
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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frybabe in the Samarkand video the market and cafe had more but even those seemed less interesting to me than the photos we saw from the section of the Silk Road last week - the Uighurs I thought were a more lively and colorful people.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Golly 14th century and in one area 5 MILLION are dead - what % of the world population I wonder did 5 Million represent. that is more than half the 8 million Jews killed in concentration camps- if they can go from as the book quote, "fresh from murdering a brother or erasing a city, before they settle again to ponder tulips and open a book." I'm thinking we call this barbaric and monstrous yet they appear to see it as a matter of course - almost like slaughtering cattle to feed the hungry - what are these leaders feeding - can the 'need' beyond desire for power and control be that reptilian in our brain. 

Behzad is the most famous of Persian miniature painters,and the director of a workshop producing manuscript illuminations in a style he conceived.

Mir Sayyid was a Persian illustrator and painter of miniatures.

The Timurids were in-laws of the line of Genghis Khan, founder of the Mongol Empire. Members of the Timurid dynasty were strongly influenced by the Persian culture and established two significant empires in history, the Timurid Empire (1370–1507) based in Persia and Central Asia and the Mughal Empire (1526–1857) based in the Indian subcontinent.

Bibi Khanum Mosque



“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Interesting - found this... furthering what Colin says is this bit - his legacy continued into the 20th century.

"Timur's body was exhumed from his tomb in 1941 by the Soviet anthropologist Mikhail M. Gerasimov. He found that Timur's facial characteristics conformed to that of Mongoloid features, which he believed, in some part, supported Timur's notion that he was descended from Genghis Khan. He also confirmed Timur's lameness. Gerasimov was able to reconstruct the likeness of Timur from his skull.

Famously, a curse has been attached to opening Timur's tomb. In the year of Timur's death, a sign was carved in his tomb warning that whoever would dare disturb the tomb would bring demons of war onto his land. Gerasimov's expedition opened the tomb on June 19, 1941. Operation Barbarossa, the invasion of the Soviet Union by Nazi Germany, began three days later. Timur's skeleton and that of Ulugh Beg, his grandson, were re-interred with full Islamic burial rites in 1942."

These quotes from the book really captured something that is universal.

"The waves of the liturgy sweep over us. As the congregation bows towards the Host, my mind is drawn back compulsively to Russia's past, to suffering endured like the nature of things, like descending rain. Sometimes it seems as if in Russian eyes there were no individual guilt: only sin, vast and communal...It is the beauty of the liturgy, he says, that educates the heart...Since the Holocaust, my world had made a duty of remembrance...A nation was not built on truth."
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #100 on: March 29, 2019, 05:29:09 PM »
frybabe went back and reviewed again your youtube link to Samarkand and on the side this link showed - The Karakorum Highway - 10 minutes of the most incredible scenery https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXNcbd-yq-c

All I could think of seeing all those incredible mountains if they would just get settled their political and religions wars this could be a haven for mountain climbers and mountain hiking - those colorfully painted buses and even the boats is an art form that I almost want to see a few on our streets. The start of the journey showing a highway with some large lorries with Chinese written on them are not nearly as uplifting as later on the road seeing these colorful alternatives.

Colin seems to do a lot of comparing to earlier trips so that I am not sure if his concerns and negative comments are based on the changes that are happening all over the world or that the area was negatively affected by either the Chinese or now the Russians.

This youtube film showing yurts using solar energy was a surprise - I wonder what Colin would think and say - the film's traveler does admit it got cold at night in that yurt - finally someone that tells it as it probably is rather than keeping all the romance of the yurt - I remember reading how someone slept in a yurt with a single lite candle keeping him warm - hmmm now I am wondering. Wasn't it years ago Julia Roberts who filmed her trip into this area? OR maybe it was Mongolia - wow how easy it is to think one area of Asia is 1000s of miles away but similar.   I really need to get a handle on the distances comparing Kilometers to miles. I think my vehicle has a pedometer that allows me to switch to kilometers - I should do it and drive up the Georgetown or some other nearby city that I know and see the comparison.

I'm enjoying this but now after reading and seeing the many youtubes of sections of the Silk Road I'm not as enchanted and knowing I will never make the trip is just fine - fascinating but still prefer the US, Canada, even Mexico and Europe. Japan still holds a fascination for me
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #101 on: March 29, 2019, 09:54:34 PM »
Next week Colin crosses the Friendship Bridge past the port of Termez.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #102 on: March 30, 2019, 06:44:32 AM »
Liked the video, Barb. Yes, I agree about the busses; they have always fascinated me. The walls of the yurt interior looked quite sturdy with the lattice hatching which must help stabilize the tent against heavy winds. It looked comfy, if a bit bare. Seeing those distinctive hats reminded me that I forgot to mention them earlier. Strange design. I can see a green version with a shamrock pinned to it worn by a Leprechaun.

You are probably right about the author comparing his earlier trips. I would be surprised if he hadn't.

We don't generally hear about all the mining going on in that whole area. I suspect that that is why the Chinese and Russians are/were interested in controlling the region. I think the results of these mining operations have done and are continuing to do to the environment and people have not been lost on the author although he is treading lightly over the subject.
https://bankwatch.org/blog/earths-riches-peoples-troubles-mining-in-central-asia
https://www.ebrd.com/news/2018/rallying-support-for-central-asia-to-address-uranium-mining-legacy.html

This one is a summary of a thesis on pre-Islamic tin mining. scroll down to the bottom for more pictures.
https://www.bergbaumuseum.de/en/research/projects/early-mining-landscapes/pre-islamic-tin-mining-central-asia

Frybabe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #103 on: April 02, 2019, 04:05:20 PM »
How bleak this trek from Bahlk to Maimana. Dangerous territory.

When I looked up Mazar-e Sharif, I ran right up against the massacres of the Hazara people. Here is a paper by the Human Rights Watch about the 1998 massacre. https://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports98/afghan/Afrepor0.htm

But that is not the first time nor was it the last the the Hazara have been targeted.
https://minorityrights.org/minorities/hazaras/

I learned that Mazar-e Sharif is one the top 100 list for most polluted cities for particulate matter concentrations.

Some photos Afghanistan from 1973 which includes Mazar-e Sharif and its beautiful Blue Mosque. Herat is there too which is where I am headed for now in the book.
https://ozoutback.com.au/Afghanistan/index.html

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #104 on: April 02, 2019, 11:29:45 PM »
Well I'm in Iran and feeling like the story can continue - did not like any of what I read about his traveling through Afghanistan - the conditions of Hazara reminded me of the novel all the rage a few years ago Kite Flyer or whatever it was called - when we learned there were 6 major tribes in Afghanistan and the Hazara were thought of as the lowest. Young Hazara boys were expected to be involved in pederasty - the book describes a women being stoned in the stadium. I'm remembering the underlying German influence but do not remember how the Germans became such an integral part of the social structure - I did not like the novel and reading his description of the area that had more recent history then ancient history this part of his travel I just read to get through - I'm in Iran now and already it feels a bit lighter - they may be our arch enemy which I really do not understand why but so far the people and surroundings they sound less like they are living in the bowls of hell.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #105 on: April 03, 2019, 06:40:41 AM »
I actually like Rory Stewart's The Places in Between better. It covered his travels in Afghanistan, India, Iran, Nepal, and Pakistan, with the concentration on his trek through Afghanistan just after the Taliban were ousted. What I remember most about the book was the hospitality of the people along the way to a stranger and the dog he rescued along the way. I see that there is a short quote on the back cover from Colin Thubron. Stewart's background includes a Fellowship at the Carr Center for Human Rights Policy at Harvard's John F. Kennedy School of Government, service in Iran with the British Army, and he is now a member of Parliament.

I also read Khaled Hosseini's The Kite Runner and the sequel,  A Thousand Splendid Suns. I haven't read the third, And the Mountains Echoed although I meant to. I also read Bookseller of Kabul by Åsne Seierstad. That one came with a little controversy about how she portrayed some of the people she stayed with.

Sigh! My typing assistant took off not to long ago without being to disruptive. The opening left is now filled again, by Lucy, who likes to lay right on the keyboard and purr big-time. So now we are getting lots of love vibes with the nose nudges and purrs.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #106 on: April 03, 2019, 12:23:20 PM »
Rory Stewart's The Places in Between sounds like a good read - I remember back, oh it has to be 15 years ago now, reading several books about the various tribes that live in the area of Afghanistan but they were not novels. It became apparent reading about these ancient tribes and their homeland they lines that form Afghanistan was a construct just as Colin noticed while in Kazakhstan. And yes, that was it The Kite Runner, all the rage, I think we read it hear on Senior Learn - I wonder what ever happened to Karzai - he is no longer President but did he retire, is he still involved in government in some quiet capacity, is he still living in Afghanistan, or has he moved to Paris as so many of the ex leaders of the Muslim nations.

Gotta run - eye doctor appointment.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #107 on: April 03, 2019, 07:30:07 PM »
Barb, Karzai is still around but what he is doing other than spouting propaganda that the US and ISIS are in collusion to keep the region destabilized I haven't heard. This, of course, is after he got voted out of office and was accused of himself playing footsie with the Taliban.

As of 2017 he was living in Kabul. Last year he was traveling a lot in the general Central Asia area and giving speeches, including not surprisingly, Pakistan but also India, Sri Lanka, and Turkey. Karzai and Taliban reps were in Moscow this February for talks. According to this article the US had reps there too, but the current Afghani government didn't. This article is from Radio Free Europe. https://www.rferl.org/a/taliban-afghan-delegation-say-talks-to-continue/29756223.html  Both Washington Post and Der Spiegel had relatively recent articles about him, but you have to subscribe to read them.


I have gotten to Tehran in my reading. The paragraphs about Omar Khayyam were very interesting.  I took a look at some pictures of his current tomb; IMO it is rather ugly. While looking at pix of the mosque complex in Meshed (Mashad) which is very impressive, I ran across this bit of modern ecological architectural design. https://architecturepin.com/pin/3785/ The page loads slowly.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #108 on: April 03, 2019, 11:43:55 PM »
Worse thing we ever did was set this country up to think the solution for all nations is Democracy - thanks much for the link - all I see is Afghanistan is not run by a national rule of law as folks expected - for thousands of years and they continue to follow the tribal rule of law and all Karzai is doing is representing his tribe - the current president has his tribe or tribes and if there is ever a show down that will be how it is fought - in the meantime they are each perusing those who they think will strengthen their tribal leadership position. Karzai wooing a US advisory is a wise move - our nation trying to befriend Putin would have been a wise move to nullify near future wars in the Middle East - ah so... Folks here, along with the media have played international checkers for so long they do not recognize international chess when it is before their eyes.

Well you are ahead of me in your reading - spent hours at the eye Doctor's today and when I came home all I wanted was a nap that ended up being three and a half hours long - here it is after 10: at night and I only finished my supper - well onward...   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #109 on: April 05, 2019, 05:30:04 PM »
I pushed through today and finished the book. Colin seemed to rush though Iran and Iraq (probably with good reason) rather quickly. I actually disliked his narrative of going through Iraq more than Iran. I think in the end he seemed to realize he was getting too old for the kind of traveling he had done. It looks like he has only written forwards to other travel books and one novel since this one, and he President of the Royal Society of Literature between 2009 and 2017.


While several of the sites were tempting to look up, I decided not to. Most of the sites he visited seemed to be either not really there or piles of rubble. The exception would be Antioch, but I could spend all day there soaking up its' extensive history.

I did settle on one final website because he mentioned Vespasian and his son, Titus. Vespasian and Titus both campaigned in the area. And here is the web page I found describing Seleucia Pieria (spelled Pierea in the book) that describes its' history. Click on monuments for a link to the channel Titus had built as well as several other places of interest.

https://www.livius.org/articles/place/seleucia-in-pieria/

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #110 on: April 05, 2019, 07:10:32 PM »
Ah so ... haven't finished yet but I too was pushing through - As much as folks in the provinces of Eastern China complained about the Chinese I enjoyed that section of the book far more then this Afghanistan and Iran section - I too felt his including all the crumbling ruins was his duty to report where as I was anxious to read about more relevance as these monuments to culture and ancient leaders were to those who live in the Eastern Chinese Provinces

I'll probably spend tonight and some of tomorrow finishing up the last bit and posting a few photos that I find - like you Antioch is another world and one I too could dive into.

frybabe since it is just you and I - I'm changing the heading and it will show this discussion over as of Monday with a wrap-up till Wednesday in case either of us have any thing more to say or if Pat comes in for a tail end comment.   

I need to add I did not know about the Shia child that disappeared and they are waiting for the child to return on the Last Day, that one of the festivals was to honor the Awaited One, the Mahdi.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #111 on: April 06, 2019, 04:37:56 AM »
Interesting his spelling of Meshed as compared to what I am seeing attached to photos - Mashhad

Some of what he is seeing




“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #112 on: April 06, 2019, 04:55:28 AM »
Statue of Iran's poet laureate, Firdausi who wrote the world's longest Epic poem

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #113 on: April 06, 2019, 05:10:11 AM »
Interesting the English speaking Hussein shared a version of 9/11 I've heard and had explained to me by architects and engineers - reading this and from an Iranian now I am wondering if their version has been picked up and shared here in the US, to compete with what we think happened - leaves the entire dreadful happening in question so that the anniversary of that day most of us saw in full on TV is a complicated feeling of misgivings so different then December 7th Pearl Harbor. HUssein's explanation and his opinion of the Christian narrative sure shows the gulf between the two cultures. Being American is not a good thing in Iran and yet, there must be some redemption - we know John Kerry's younger daughter is married to an Iranian physician who is well connected to the Iranian leadership.

Colin's travel speaks of a few more poets and then the crumbling Silk Road without even the wonderful museums protecting these ancient crumbs of what was.

No mirrors and beautiful turquoise tile here at the oldest mosque in Iran, built can you believe in 760.


Became curious about the world's oldest buildings still in use - quite a few and several back 1000 and more years BC
https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-of-the-oldest-buildings-that-are-still-in-use
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #114 on: April 06, 2019, 05:58:47 AM »
Just hit me - Iran with its Shia heritage is feeling a victim to their status as Shia and victim to the west, both to England and to the US - weeping is now a practiced art - sheesh - and yet, I am seeing some of this blaming now among many in the US instead of action - rolling up our sleeves and getting it done - it is this feeling of being controlled that we seem to be under and that Colin picked up how the young feel in Iran.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #115 on: April 06, 2019, 06:26:06 AM »
Alamut --- "The name Alamut came from an ancient Persian King, who, while on a hunting expedition in a remote valley, followed an enormous eagle and saw it land on a rock at the top of a hard to reach mountain. The King took this as a favorable omen, and, realizing the strategic value of the location, built a castle there, naming it ‘Alamut’, meaning ‘the Eagle’s Nest’.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #116 on: April 06, 2019, 05:54:51 PM »
Meshed is actually one place I don't remember from previous readings. Another spectacular mosque/shrine. Last night I watched a short YouTube presentation about the early Armenians. As with others I  have watched about the early tribes/clans in the area and on the other side of the Black Sea in Bulgaria/Romania and such, it was posted by History Time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5Zu08tKzs4 It doesn't cover the Silk Road area that Colin passed through.

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #117 on: April 07, 2019, 03:25:42 PM »
Frybabe I had a field day last night with your link - one link led to another that were all related to the days before Islam and the early people of what now we call Eurasia. The history of the Sythians and the Tartars on and on - of course each Youtube video was close to or over an hour long but definitely worth it - so much bad mouthing of Byzantium and one video even said they folded because they did not change and they walled off anything new - so now I am more curious than ever - all I knew is this eastern group of Christians broke from Rome and then Rome became the Christian center where as in the early 400 years the center was in Constantinople.

I am so glad to have read this book - it put so many places together that were scattered in my mind from earlier reading - never really knew where Antioch was except as a place on the map but no cultural or historical reference to other locations east of Antioch. I guess that is it, Thubron gave me a historical and cultural understanding of all these ethnic groups and places and how the Silk Road really connected all these cultures. That connection still holds today and to know their ancient leaders is enlightening. In my mind's eye it is difficult to connect with people who take their cultural identity from happenings that are a minimum of 1000 years ago and some going back before Christ - just amazing and here we look to those who brought us the Constitution which is not even 300 years old.

Religions to me are fascinating - they seem to be an expression and engine of the culture as well as, an explanation for the unknown and theater - I'm thinking their heroic leaders seem larger than life - thinking on it when a movie or computer game can make monsters who are either good or bad that far exceed the ability of any single human so that, no way can we give that aura and skill set to our leaders today - they are almost diminished as heroes - cast aside as mare insignificant mortals.

I'm seeing a cause for disenchantment with the idea or possibilities of heroic leadership by the Millennials and those younger.   It is as if these new cyber heroes allowed them to see the real human heroes as wanting and therefore, they feel like the did when they learned there was no Santa - maybe that is what is behind the bigger move toward no longer acknowledging a Santa.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #118 on: April 07, 2019, 05:37:11 PM »
The YouTube presentations have helped me put a time and place of origin for some of these groups that had me previously confused. There were some groups that i didn't know were primarily Jewish or Christian, not to mention a few surprises about where they originated. I have a SmartTV so I get to watch these on the big screen.

Do you realize that Colin must have been in his early sixties (he will be 80 in June) when he traveled the Silk Road. No wonder he was more than occasionally a bit "angry" and seemingly impatient.

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Re: Shadow of the Silk Road ~ Book Club Online ~Spring 2019 Starts March 11!
« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2019, 07:30:34 PM »
Wow did not realize that - he sure was in good shape then to do the cliff climbing in that last section - and earlier as well in the Assassin Valley mountain fortification - I have that book that I read years and years ago about Stark and I think the name of the book had Assassin in it - need to find it - had no historical context - so this is where those who were involved with fighting the English and Saladin in Northern Africa came from - had no idea.

I like the time table he included at the end - but frankly if I had not read the book the time table would have not been as valuable - he brought it alive where as up until reading this I had isolated the various historical events.   

Also really valuable was his observation that the Shia are all in a place of grief all the time - no wonder all the photos we see of the Iranian leadership look so grave - not a smile among them.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe