Author Topic: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OCT. 14,2009-Feb.17,2020  (Read 48705 times)

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #120 on: November 08, 2019, 12:18:34 PM »
Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:


Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~

Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion

Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc
November 11....Geraint the Son of Erbin
November 18....Kilhwch and Olwen
November 25....The Dream of Rhonabwy
December 02....Pwyll Prince of Dyved
December 09....Branwen the Daughter of Llyr
January 06.......Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 13.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 20.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
January 27.......The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
February 04.....Taliesin

Discussion Leader: Barbara


PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #121 on: November 08, 2019, 02:12:34 PM »
When Peredur leaves Arthur's court, he quickly starts running into his relatives, and we also get foreshadowing of the Grail story.  He meets one of his uncles, an old, lame man sitting by a lake, where others are fishing for him.  This is somewhat like the Fisher King, whose painful wound, which can only be cured by the Holy Lance, keeps him from doing anything but fishing.

Peredur goes on, and encounters a second uncle.  While they are dining, a large, bloody lance is brought into the room.  Everyone groans, but no explanation is given.  Then a bloody head is brought in on a platter.  Again no explanation is given.

Presumably the references were clearer to the original audience?

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #122 on: November 08, 2019, 02:22:11 PM »
After this, Peredur encounters a woman trying to bury the body of her husband.  He helps her, then finds the murderer, defeats him, and forces him to make amends by marrying the widow and promising to take proper care of her.

This is the second time something like this has happened (Owain and the knight of the fountain).

Is it really a happy ending to have to marry your husband's murderer?

It's a good thing we're moving on to Geraint; I think Peredur is getting to be a bit too much.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #123 on: November 08, 2019, 02:48:32 PM »
Thanks again Pat for saving the space for the heading - yes, so much killing in this story that does not seem to make sense - it must be all symbolic and I would not be one bit surprised with even all the books today on understanding symbolism, much of this story is lost with an understanding we, or even scholars, have few clues.

Here is some symbolism - none of the Celtic symbolism fits - but all the Christian symbolism fits to a T.

Head Regarded, with the heart, as the chief member of the body, the seat of life-force and the soul and its power; it denotes wisdom; mind; control; rule. The head is the seat of both intelligence and folly and is the first object of both honour and dishonour: the crown of glory and wreath of victory are placed on the head, but so are the ashes of mourning and penitence, the fool’s cap and ‘coals of fire’.
Christian: Christ, the Head of the Church. Beheaded saints, with a head as emblem, are Alban, Clair, Denis, Peter, Valerie.

Lance An aspect of the masculine power; phallic; solar; war. The lance, sword and arrows can all represent solar rays. The lance is an attribute of the lower forms of knighthood with the sword, as discernment, as the higher. The symbolism of the lance as masculine and the cup, or chalice, as feminine, is bound up with that of the mountain and cave; the mountain and the vertical shadowless lance are both symbols of the axis mundi. The lance and cup are also associated with the GRAIL.
Christian: The lance and cup are connected with the Holy Grail as the cup which caught the blood of Christ on the cross when wounded by the lance. It is an emblem of the passion and of SS George of Cappadocia, Thomas and Jude.

Fish Christian:The Apostles were fishers of men... The fish represented Christ in the Latin church. Fishes were also symbolic of devotees and disciples swimming in the waters of life.

Lake The feminine, humid principle; often the dwelling place of monsters or magical feminine powers, such as ‘The Lady of the Lake’.

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #124 on: November 08, 2019, 03:02:21 PM »
I had a Jewish friend whose family lived in the Netherlands and of course was caught up in WWII horrors - seems after her father was taken, never to return according to Jewish Law her Uncle, her Father's brother had to marry her mother - which is not the same as marrying the women of the man you killed but close - and I remember back in the 50s living in Kentucky, those from the hills had a code that if you killed a man you were obligated to take care of his wife and family.

I'm thinking it was only the the 1970s that a women could have her own bank account without a man's signature and also soon after was the first a women could take out a bank loan or make a major purchase without a male member of the family's signature. We also know marriage before the sixteenth century was not based on romantic love but an alignment with land acquisition to the groom's family, or power status, or wealth even beyond the dowry and so, if the winning knight took all the looser's possessions that may mean his home and wealth that was tied up with the women, the wife and so she was simply part of the property of the conquered knight. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #125 on: November 08, 2019, 09:26:07 PM »
Good heavens - on a fluke decided to look up to see who was St. Alban- the name reminded me of town in Britain and so I thought hmm I wonder - well sure enough - now you have to wonder if this tale of Peredur was including a reference to St. Alban with the beheading -

Saint Alban is venerated as the first-recorded British Christian martyr, for which reason he is considered to be the British protomartyr (means first Christian Martyr in a nation). Along with fellow Saints Julius and Aaron, Alban is one of three named martyrs recorded at an early date from Roman Britain ("Amphibalus" was the name given much later to the priest he was said to have been protecting). He is traditionally believed to have been beheaded in the Roman city of Verulamium (modern St Albans) sometime during the 3rd or 4th century, and his cult has been celebrated there since ancient times.

Here is the entire story of Saint Alban on Wikipedia- scroll down a bit...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Alban

after reading this of course the uncle had to be near a lake - Saint Alban dries up a river so they can cross to quicken his execution.

More threes - Saints Julius, Aaron, Alban

aha and a bit more - The area known as the ‘Welsh Province’, which comprises of Wales and Herefordshire, has a long history of Christianity. The martyrdom of Ss. Alban, Julius and Aaron is the first landmark in our Christian history in Britain. It is probable that they were put to death in the persecution of Valeriam (257-259). It is believed Alban was martyred at where is now the City of St. Albans in Hertfordshire, and it is believed that Julius and Aaron were citizens of Caerleon, near to modern day Newport, and were martyred there. The Venerable Bede (672-375), following Gildas (500-570), mentions them in his Ecclesiastical History and they are to be found in the Roman Martyrology.  We also know that at the Council of Arles (314) three British Bishops were present.

Again scroll a bit and the story of Christianities timeline in Wales is included.
https://rcadc.org/history-of-the-diocese/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #126 on: November 08, 2019, 09:49:41 PM »
I love this - it is like playing a treasure hunt as we all bring our bits to the table in our posts.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2019, 02:47:34 AM »
Goodness another Dwarf - had to look it up and sure 'nough Dwarfs are symbolic -

Dwarf The unconscious and amoral forces of nature, such as gnomes, elves, etc.

With that it seems fitting the story has the dwarf striking a lady across the face and eyes as well as the knight.

Nothing particular to either Celtic or Christian symbolism but the Scandinavians use the dwarf for further symbolic affect.

Scandinavian: Four dwarfs stand at the corners of the earth and support the sky.
 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #128 on: November 11, 2019, 10:24:38 AM »
Ah so we have the dwarf, symbol of the unconscious and amoral forces in nature strike across the face and the eye

Face The outward personality.

Eye Omniscience; the all-seeing divinity; the faculty of intuitive vision. ‘The light of the body is the eye’ (Matt. 6, 22).

OK this one we can see it now for what it is in most of these stories - they are based in the culture of the Knight...

Knight As mounted on a horse, the knight is the spirit guiding the body; his quest represents the journey of the soul through the world, with its temptations, obstacles, trials, testing and proving of character and development towards perfection. He also typifies the initiate.

The Green Knight is either the neophyte or initiate, or, if in giant form, the powers of Nature and sometimes Death.
The Red Knight is the conqueror, baptized in blood.
The White Knight depicts innocence, purity, the elect, the illuminated.
The Black Knight represents the powers of evil, sin, expiation and sacrifice.

Wow - the explanation for the knight as a symbol provides a link to further information under Chess - Never knew all this about chess - more than interesting - I'm blown away...

Chess The royal game of life; the conflict between the spiritual powers of light and darkness; devas and asuras; angels and demons struggling for domination of the world; existence as a field of action of opposing powers and forces; manifestation and re-absorption.

Asuras (Sanskrit: are a class of divine beings or power-seeking deities related to the more benevolent Devas (also known as Suras) in Hinduism. The asuras battle constantly with the devas. Asuras are described in Indian texts as powerful superhuman demigods with good or bad qualities.

This is followed by an explanation of the chess board, the movement of players and the symbolism of the players - here is the explanation for the knight and the castle.

The Rook, Castle, or Chariot, is the temporal power, the rulers of this world; the move is based on the square, which symbolizes matter and the earth, while the axial movement, cutting across colours, denotes the virile and masculine and is ruled by Saturn.

The Knight, the initiate, uses both the intellectual and devotional way, but without the power of the spirit; the jump of the Knight’s move represents the jump of intuition, also the left-hand path. It is also suggested that it has military and chivalric associations with initiatory orders of the Templars, etc., and is a ‘WANDERER’  or ‘knight errant’; it is ruled by Mars.

The wanderer engages in aimless movement, as opposed to the pilgrim who takes a direct and purposeful path. The wanderer is also symbolic of the knight’s move in chess, where he is the knight errant or ‘wanderer’, who sets out on a journey or adventure not knowing where it may lead him.


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #129 on: November 11, 2019, 10:41:24 AM »
Another that make a symbolic statement...

Blood The life principle; the soul; strength; the rejuvenating force, hence blood sacrifice. The red, solar energy. Blood and wine are interchangeable symbols. In Christian symbolism blood and water at the crucifixion are the life of the body and the life of the spirit.

Ah so, the dwarf striking the face and eyes of the lady and the knight is an amoral force bloodying - bringing outward on their face, their outward personality, as a rejuvenating force and striking their eyes symbolic of their intuitiveness, the light of their body - bottom line says to me the amoral is out of the blue striking their life force.

I guess that is what happens to all of us when we are hit so to speak with the unexpected, a betrayal or loss or an aggressive act.  It is just played out here is a scene from the past - I guess how we handle an attack is according to the severity of the attack on our body or values.


What are y'all getting out of this - so far still have pages to read... I'm a little over half finished.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #130 on: November 11, 2019, 10:45:27 AM »
I guess dwarfs were much more common than these days. I remember seeing a few around when I was a youngster, but with the new hormone treatments and what not, I guess it has become rather rare--at least in less poverty stricken areas.

I think with all the ands in these stories you can see the oral telling coming out some, especially if you are telling the tales to children. And then, and then, and then. Or the pause in the story and the audience hollering "and then what happened".

I have just gotten, but not yet read, to the second part of the stag hunt story. I am a bit disappointed that Arthur would have the rare and beautiful creature killed. So we shall see "what happens next". The jousting scene was interesting, but not particularly descriptive. In fact none of these stories are very descriptive except for the basics. The most descriptive so far are the how people looked, such as hair color, age, some notice of clothing, descriptions of the countryside, but not much detail on the arms and armor.. So we don't have any description of the tournament atmosphere with its presumably colorful tents and standards, and dress of the spectators, no tournament rules or number of participants or who the participants were except for the two major combatants. Very simple tales compared to the likes of Homer. But gosh, like Homer, they have traveled and been told and retold through the ages, things added, things dropped depending on the audience. Ever enduring.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #131 on: November 11, 2019, 03:01:44 PM »
So far my take is in this story they are fighting each other but not in a tournament - although, they meet on a meadow - so maybe frybabe but then, could it be we think every jousting match is an occasion for a grandstand and hoards of onlookers - however, they do talk of onlookers and the Lady is there observing -

Yep, you are right, not a lot of description about events. Without the events described sure gives our imagination a workout and therefore a look of fantasy can be in our mind's eye. Probably back in time these stories probably did not need that much description since everyone knew the 'drill' and all we have is what we have seen in the movies or a few illustrations - and yes, hmm maybe that is it - the emphasis seems to be on "what happens next" and description would slow down the anxiety of what happens next. I remember so often I'd be describing something and those listening would say 'get on with it' - 'what happened'

;) I'm thinking once you are powerful and wealthy you 'have to have it' no matter the luxury item and for the last couple of hundred years it may have been artwork or fine furniture or silver items where is back in the years 600 to 1100 it was unique animal heads, gold and a fine sword. And with all the attributes laid to Arthur he was still a powerful and wealthy king.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #132 on: November 13, 2019, 09:13:54 AM »
I'm about where Frybabe is in the story.  This is the second time we've met a dwarf.  Dwarves were a feature of courts, like jesters and entertainers, figures of amusement or decoration.  I didn't find a very good article about them, but this gives the idea:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Court_dwarf

They mostly seem to have been around later than Arthur's time, but the story details have been embellished with later tellings.  Judging from these two examples, dwarves were a lot of trouble.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #133 on: November 13, 2019, 01:00:26 PM »
Interesting article Pat - starts out like anyone who is not a white full grown male is put into a form of slavery - women, blacks, dwarfs - I have read that those who were too deformed were hid, pretty much through the early twentieth century and then I read in another book how the more unusual the person or item the greater value the gift - to this day we attempt to gift a person with something that will amaze, excite and astound someone, even killing a foe is a form of a gift. hmm the more you think on this the more weird we humans.

I think one of the first phrases says so much, "They were owned and traded amongst people of the court, and delivered as gifts to fellow kings and queens"

I was surprised to hear the number of years to the life of someone with dwarfism. I was under the impression they typically died in mid-life years.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #134 on: November 13, 2019, 01:12:22 PM »
I plowed on past the killing of the white deer but frankly I was too tired and got that cross eyed feeling - I'm finding these stories hard to follow - I think I am caught up in trying to discern history from mythology - Earlier someone shared they found a way to listen to the stories - need to find that post and follow up - I think if I read while someone was reading I could have an easier time of sorting out what is happening - but then maybe not - between trying to include the meaning of what I think is included as symbolism that adds to the action, versus trying to sort out history from myth my brain my be on overdrive - but frankly as frybabe pointed out, there is not a lot of description about what is happening and setting the scene which I now see as helping to tell a story and only now that it is missing in this story do I realize how much more readable when scenes are set. I'm going to find a book about Arthur that I read as a child - I just do not remember the story telling being so stark and humdrum - maybe the difference is most later author/translators brought the tale into modern times where Lady Guest is as accurately as she can re-telling the stories as they were told and first written in the eleventh century.   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #135 on: November 13, 2019, 01:47:39 PM »
I've finished the story, which went easier for me than the last two. There did seem to be a wee bit more description on the jousting tournament. Another "character" that is cropping up regularly are the giants. So, anyone with a large stature was rather unusual too.

Whatever happened to Geraint? I can't believe he was simply acting on a mistaken belief that his wife preferred someone else. All that he put himself and his wife through seems more like his initial shock and anger fed into something more, like depression and, perhaps, a psychotic break of some kind. It took an awful lot of help from his friends to find and restore him to mental and physical health.

Spoiler alert, if you haven't finished the story yet:
Of the three so far, I like this one the best. It had a few recognizable elements including the continuing loyalty of his wife even though he mistrusted her and she disobeyed his commands to keep her mouth shut, and the enduring friendship and courage his friends showed by essentially doing an intervention to restore his health, physical and mental. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #136 on: November 14, 2019, 03:11:31 AM »
For the life of me I cannot remember where i heard the story of Enid not obeying - where ever, I remember she was never really punished as I understood punishment although now reading it I give her, she sure had her fill of seeing her beloved about dead more than once. I remember having the same reaction reading this time as when I first read or heard the story, that Enid reminded me of Lot's wife and thought for sure her fate would be similar. Well it appears he shows them all - her for not trusting him and being tearful listening to court gossip and the court for doubting his prowess.

I thought this chapter/story was rather disjointed - didn't see too much relationship between the stories except the same personalities were involved - it really could have been 2 if not 3 separate stories.

Evidently a hunt had as much protocol as a tournament and the notes kept referring over and over to the Triad -

http://www.maryjones.us/ctexts/triads1.html

And again, for the life of me cannot remember which ballad mentions the square of low degree (I can even hear the tune in my head but not enough to nail it) however, I never knew it was a reference to a well known and loved medieval story.

Here is an annotated copy...
http://www.elfinspell.com/EERSquireofLowDegree.html

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #137 on: November 14, 2019, 06:45:32 AM »
The two stories, Arthur and the stag, and Geraint's journey remind me of many of the modern novels that follow two different events or people, flip-flopping back and fourth between the two until, eventually, they merge near the end of the book.

I didn't pick up on trust as a major issue except where his wife was concerned. I did think Geraint was an very obstinate against accepting any kind of help. I think we all have run across people who could use help at one time or another but who refuse it, no matter how desperate the situation may be. Is that a pride thing? Do they believe people will think less of them and think them weak if they accept help? Sorry to say, but the interaction between Geraint and Enid when she, after being told not to speak, tried to be helpful in cautioning him of danger, reminds me of George and his mother. Even I got scornful comments now and again when I would offer some innocuous advise, the like in the don't forget your hat or umbrella kind of advise. George, his mom told me once, was that way from a very young age, insisting on doing things himself. He thought his mom was controlling and manipulative. I see similar personality traits in Geraint - a man worth knowing and following for all his faults. Enid remained loyal, as I do.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #138 on: November 14, 2019, 02:50:13 PM »
Ah yes, I can see that now that you pointed it out Frybabe - the stories are told like a modern novel with several stories going on at once.

Ha funny to me - a different way to understand guys not wanting un-asked for advice - I do it at times with my son who bristles, mostly when in his vehicle and I'm telling him to turn here or there since I use shortcuts with no traffic and he has not lived in Austin now for at least 25 years - here I think I am being helpful but Sally, my daughter-in-law has a fun way of reminding me he is grown man, independent and capable and does not need me to take care of him, that we all make our own choices in life. With a quick intake of breath I get it - I don't want anyone telling me what to do either - my only wish is I had to same ability as Sally to explain in a fun, wink of the eye way. Ah so... we all react differently don't we.

In the story Geraint is being rather masterful, to the point of being obnoxious however, I saw it as a retaliation for her believing the court gossip causing her to shed her tears where as, he was fully enjoying being in her company - I think he was more than annoyed that she was grieved over the gossip rather then enjoying the life they were living so that he had to prove himself again.

She did not stand up for him but instead reacted to court gossip that he was a has-been, taking advantage of his past  and no longer capable because he locked himself up in her presence - but then he thought his early declaration of what was important was understood - "And unto him he represents that it was better for him to spend the flower of his youth and the prime of his age in preserving his own boundaries, than in tournaments, which are productive of no profit, although he obtains glory in them."

And so he did not see himself ignoring the court of knights and others - He sees they want the glory of a constantly winning leader - He sees how their desire has taken hold, even affecting Enid, so he goes forth. I also think he felt betrayed by Enid that she fell for the gossip and did not value him enough to stand up for his principle about fighting; that he made his decision to spend his life with her enjoying each other and then, when she reacts so strongly to the court gossip he had no alternative but to play the glory game but also, Enid was going to learn what the glory game entailed and learn to trust he could handle whatever comes because that is what a well trained knight does.

For her to be on the look out is fine but to trust he was a capable well trained knight which meant, ready or not, forewarned or not, he engaged in whatever danger presented itself and won - part of proving your worth was to win regardless the circumstances or what to others looks like a surprise attack but in reality, was the practiced skill of a well trained knight.  He had trained so that his senses picked up the danger before it arrives. He did not need anyone to tell him how to do his job or prepare him to do his job, especially someone who was not a trained knight. I just saw him as pissed that others would not respect him and his choices and now he had to go out and prove himself all over and take on the Glory game and it was about time Enid saw what was really involved so that he was being stubborn about taking care of himself.

I thought Arthur's men realized what he was doing and made it appear easy for him to get help without his seeking it or without the feeling someone was coming to rescue him but rather, by moving the tent near the road he would, in affect bump into it. He was a proud knight and took his physical damage and pain as part of the job plus I thought he was so pissed that this unnecessary foray into the kingdom was him having to show he was a winning glory seeking knight which he saw nothing noble about it - he was not protecting anyone or fighting for Arthur - sure he found a couple of bad guys along the way but then there is always bad guys and his statement about his 'flower of youth' questions, was his life enjoying Enid having to be questioned over, others who wanting a man's man seeking glory with and for them with their expectation he should rooting out all the bad all the time?

An aside, are we expected to spend our life rooting out bad hmm an interesting question about life - listening to the priests and nuns as a kid that seemed to be their take on life - in order to get to heaven you were to root out all the bad so that guilt is right around the corner when time is taken for moments of pleasure much less living life seeking how to intensify moments of pleasure for yourself and for others. The French are good at intensifying pleasure, believing that care be taken for instance with food because it is a pleasure and with clothes on and on.

Back to the story, since he was not on a noble journey but only seeking glory he was embarrassed for Arthur to see him in his weakened state and just wanted to get on with it... Arthur made it easy and does not chastise him for taking on the quest. Arthur was able to crack through his stubborn anger. Interesting, while healing he does not tell Enid she is forgiven and continues on his journey seeking "tournaments, which are productive of no profit" till again, he is wounded and standing beneath the shade of a tree.

This last encounter he bullies himself into the fight. This was not his land, it was the kingdom of Gwiffert Petit and he says to Gwiffert Petit - "Nay," answered Geraint, "I knew not this road was forbid to any." - Gwiffert Petit was not the dwarf that slapped him in the face at the start of all this. And so is it just because he is a dwarf king?

What I am picking up is - telling these stories everyone knows what aspects of the story stand for -like today, mention Russia and regardless if you agree or not you know they are the bad guys - well there are several dwarfs in the story and a few giants that according the the book on symbols both dwarf and giants represent the amoral forces; primordial power; darkness. The Giant using a Club, the club represents great strength and symbolizes the betrayal of Christ. Those hearing the story or even, up till more recent centuries, those  reading the story would knee jerk know what these references mean.

For Celts the deer represents a supernatural animal of the fairy world and they are divine messengers. And a 'white' deer means a terrestrial goddess. However in the Christian mindset 'white' means, a purified soul; joy; purity; virginity; innocence; the holy life; light; integrity. White is worn at all sacraments: baptism, confirmation, first communion, marriage, death. It is the colour of saints not suffering martyrdom and of virgin saints and Easter, Christmas, Epiphany and Ascension. It seems to me the white deer is the core of the story, the holy grail so to speak and Arthur gives it to Enid.

The knight's quest represents the journey of the soul through the world, with its temptations, obstacles, trials, testing and proving of character and development towards perfection. Is Geraint at the end a purified soul that came close but does not suffer martyrdom resting under the shadow of a tree... A Tree is 'The' whole of manifestation; the synthesis of heaven, earth and water; dynamic life as opposed to the static life of the stone. Both an imago mundi and axis mundi, the ‘Tree in the midst’ joining the three worlds and making communication between them possible, also giving access to solar power; an omphalos; a world center.

With that I wonder if the story is telling us the balance of evil versus good in represented by Geraint taking his pleasure versus continuing the journey of a soul through the world till the connection is made between heaven, hell and our life on earth - is his choice of taking pleasure in his home life with Enid allowed if he is a knight - do knight's retire?

From the story --- "Geraint went to bear them company, and Enid also, as far as Diganhwy, there they parted. Then Ondyaw the son of the duke of Burgundy said to Geraint, "Go first of all and visit the uppermost parts of thy dominions, and see well to the boundaries of thy territories; and if thou hast any trouble respecting them, send unto thy companions." "Heaven reward thee," said Geraint, "and this will I do." And Geraint journeyed to the uttermost part of his dominions. And experienced guides, and the chief men of his country, went with him. And the furthermost point that they showed him he kept possession of.

And, as he had been used to do when he was at Arthur's Court, he frequented tournaments. And he became acquainted with valiant and mighty men, until he had gained as p. 162 much fame there as he had formerly done elsewhere. And he enriched his Court, and his companions, and his nobles, with the best horses and the best arms, and with the best and most valuable jewels, and he ceased not until his fame had flown over the face of the whole kingdom. And when he knew that it was thus, he began to love ease and pleasure, for there was no one who was worth his opposing. And he loved his wife, and liked to continue in the palace, with minstrelsy and diversions.

And for a long time he abode at home. And after that he began to shut himself up in the chamber of his wife, and he took no delight in anything besides, insomuch that he gave up the friendship of his nobles, together with his hunting and his amusements, and lost the hearts of all the host in his Court; and there was murmuring and scoffing concerning him among the inhabitants of the palace, on account of his relinquishing so completely their companionship for the love of his wife. And these tidings came to Erbin. And when Erbin had heard these things, he spoke unto Enid, and inquired of her whether it was she that had caused Geraint to act thus, and to forsake his people and his hosts."


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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #139 on: November 15, 2019, 10:36:14 PM »
OK this is more or less a running commentary - I'm watching the Legends of King Arthur - a series of the story presented by professors in England - they are saying to find the historical Arthur they use the myths and legend to work backwards - they are saying that the Arthur story is full of symbols and so to understand and unravel the symbols will bring us closer to the thinking of the times and ultimately to the historical Arthur.

They are saying Mallory's version is the best and explain it was not an original - that he took the French versions and coalesced them into one story - Interesting, they are saying Mallory was a knight during the War of the Roses and tells the story from a knight's point of view - they also say he would be the last of any to know and experience knight's battling sword and lance against sword and lance because after gun powder replaced swords that was the end of chivalry as the identifying morality of a knight.

Another new bit I did not know - during the War of the Roses King Henry fought using Arthur's symbol of a dragon on his flag reawakening the story of Arthur. After he won he said he was an heir to the Welsh King Arthur - and even later Henry the VIII painted himself on the round table in Winchester Cathedral as King Arthur - Another tidbit Mallory wrote his version from a jail cell - He was more like Lancelot than the noble Arthur

OK here it is - during and after The Glyndŵr Rising, Welsh Revolt or Last War of Independence in 414 the slaughter was so great and so barbarous that by about 416 there was a 40 year stop to fighting, with many of the Saxon's and Anglo's going back to Gaul. And earlier, after the Romans left, the Saxons had been INVITED in to help fight the Picts until the Saxons became a menace.

It is during this time that Arthur's name is given as the leader who moved the Anglo Saxons out of Wales and fought them in Britain.

This may be how myth, legend and history both overlap and romanticize the story - We had evidence, included in one of our earlier posts, the name of the Welsh leader who headed the war of Independence - I should find that but onward with this film as they explain King Arthur. Back later - had to interrupt watching...
 
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #140 on: November 16, 2019, 01:01:03 AM »
Back again - amazing how many writings of early monks are quoted as including some tidbit about Arthur in these very early 6th century writings and then later numerous writings in the 8th 10th and 11th centuries

aha the story of the dragons and why the red dragon is on the flag - tra la - something about Merlin and a prediction of two stones under a castle but then the stones were under water and the water was drained by the locals who found at the bottom the two large boulders - the worms predicted by Merlin came out and started to fight - the white worms/dragon was the Saxons that would take over all the land from what we call the channel now to the ocean but they would not last since the red worms/dragon would come out and chase off the white worms/dragon/Saxons back across the sea and so the red dragon is the symbol of not just Wales but for all the British as the hidden force that will come to the rescue

Earlier the word Dragon meant leader

Back to legend and symbols they are saying both have to come out of substance - they are also pointing out that people do not change their culture overnight - the Romans were in Britain for 400 years and Arthur was a figure of importance only 100 years after they left and may have been very proud of his Roman heritage which included Christian beliefs tied into the Celtic world which for several hundred years before Rome came down on the Celts there was a very active monastic Celtic Christian tradition.

The Saxons were heathens and so another powerful reason to resist them. That it is only in the twentieth century we hear anything that Arthur was a pagan which is being pushed in the twenty-first century but nothing was suggested in earlier centuries that he was anything but a Christian.

Included in the documentary is a Druid Priest who disputes the idea the Arthur was Christian

Ha ha more from reading the Silk Road - seems the where the Romans conquered they took the best and brought them into the Roman Army - After Rome conquered, yep, Samarkand they transported over 500 Samarkand horsemen into the Roman Cavalry - half as many as were already in Britain - their armor, shields etc were found near Hadrian's Wall which is where they believe the were brought after crossing the water - the agreement among the scholars is Arthur was a trained horsemen and was in a cavalry unit - and now they are suggesting he learned his exceptional skills from these imported exceptional horsemen that brought with them their culture that was Russian. 

aha back to the start of all this - the dragon symbol - seems these Samarkand horsemen used lances that attached were flags with bronze symbols on top of the lance. The most used was a bronze dragon's head and attached was a long red wind-socket. By the 4th century the Romans used this dragon symbol so the troops knew who to follow.
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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #141 on: November 16, 2019, 09:49:50 AM »
News to me that there were cavalry from Samarkand in the Roman Army. The only thing I know about Romans in Samarkand is that they were either Silk Route traders or captured soldiers sold as slaves. Samarkand and Bactria, as best as I can tell right now, were part of the Scythian (Sarmatian) Empire which had excellent horsemen. Rome did conquer some of their territories, but I don't know what tribute, if any, Samarkand provide to Rome.

I am aware of the dragon standards that were use cians. The Dacians did supply the Roman Army with Cavalry. I would assume that was after Trajan defeated them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_Draco   The Romans liked the Dacian standard so much that some of their units eventually adopted it as their own. Who knows, maybe the Dacians, et. al. got the idea for their Dragon standard from imported Chinese silks. The business of trade did not just exchange goods; it also brought different art designs, ideas, skills, and, oh yes, the plague.

Question: Wasn't a dragon one of the ancient Celtic symbols, quite apart from the Roman imports? Many of their auxiliaries were originally from Celtic tribes.
Meanwhile, I think I located the series you are watching on the free TV channel, Tubi  (or something like that). It is part of my internet TV package, so I will be checking into it later today.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #142 on: November 16, 2019, 12:02:12 PM »
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #143 on: November 16, 2019, 04:25:58 PM »
Super! That will make it easier to find.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #144 on: November 16, 2019, 04:39:51 PM »
Tra la - the Welsh National Anthem sung by a large choir.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wcuwDXFS5Y
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #145 on: November 16, 2019, 04:57:39 PM »
Plus an enthusiastic audience.  Thanks, Frybabe.

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #146 on: November 17, 2019, 06:30:00 AM »
I checked my Goldsworthy book on the Roman Legions which has information about each legion itself as well as some of the battles they fought. He had very little to say about the Sarmatians other than that after the Dacian campaigns, including Trajan's War, they were able to recruit from the defeated army's and that they were dispersed among the various Legions. He also had a paragraph about the Draco standard.

Patricia Southern, in her book on Roman Britain also did not have much to say, but she did have more detail about the Sarmatian troops sent as part of the agreement after Trajan won the war. The Samaritians sent Rome about 8,000 troops, about 5,000 of which were assigned to the Legions in Britain. While there is no firm evidence of which areas they were assigned to, it appears that Ribchester is a likely candidate. Some, apparently were posted to Hadrian's Wall too, or were assigned there and then moved to Ribchester. Ribchester, BTW, was established as one of the Roman settlements for veterans beginning around 78AD by Vespasian. The fort was primarily garrisoned by cavalry units, many of which would have been Samaritian.

I get the feeling that Dacian and Sarmatian are sometimes used interchangeably. They were sometimes enemies and sometimes battle companions as when they fought against Trajan. The Huns and their cousins the Alans and who knows who else were in great flux in the area mixing it up for quite a while with changing alliances as opportunities arose to gain ground. What treacherous times it must have been never being able to quite trust your supposed friends and allies.

Back to our regularly scheduled program. I watched the first of The Legends of King Arthur last night. Very interesting.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #147 on: November 17, 2019, 02:22:49 PM »
Well its been awhile since I did that - lost my almost completed post - in a nutshell I was saying that it was great you had other resources and amazing, who would have guessed - some of the Asian DNA has to be included among the Brits. I do not think though when you have your DNA analyzed it goes back more than 4 or 5 generations.

Doubt I will get into the next session, Camelot till maybe tomorrow - too much good TV on PBS tonight and tomorrow night - then it is nothing - during the day I have to make up for all the time lost last week when I wintered down the house and bundled up - but tomorrow we start on Kilhwch and Olwen which is not as long as these first chapters/stories


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #148 on: November 18, 2019, 07:42:45 AM »
What a huge list of names. My favorite is Fflewddur Fflam.

I got a kick out of Yspaddaden Penkawr requesting two forks to raise up his eyebrows so he could see. I have eyes like my Dad, the folds between my eyes and eyebrows do droop down. Mine aren't as bad as Dad's were.

The bit about the briar bush on his wife's grave sounds biblical. And the trials Penkawr set out for Kilhwych to complete sound like tales from Ovid's Metamorphosis, including Jason, and other Greek myths, a whole series of things that must be accomplished before the hero is awarded the prize; each task more difficult than the last.

As a child my idea of a knight did not include rudeness and bullying. These stories leave so much out that it is difficult to determine, sometimes, whether or not fighting and killing another knight encountered along the way was justified. These guys seem to be just spoiling for a fight no matter who or for what.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #149 on: November 18, 2019, 11:56:56 AM »
The whole system seems to be set up with the mindset of spoiling for a fight, constantly proving yourself in battle.  It's interesting how much they play by the rules.  If a knight yields, you don't kill him.  Then, you set conditions on him--Go apologize to someone, go to someone and do whatever he says, etc.  It's assumed, correctly, that these tasks will be carried out, even though often the victor has gone off and can't enforce them.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #150 on: November 18, 2019, 12:47:45 PM »
As the old saying - Honor among thieves - seems to me we read somewhere that the victor takes the loser's valuables and so as they wander across the land they are probably earning wealth simply by fighting and winning and probably adding to their reputation much as the gun slingers in the old west. 
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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #151 on: November 18, 2019, 12:57:11 PM »
Using the notes to keep track of the lineage is more names - it reminds me of that bit in the bible where the lineage of Jesus is quoted - ha I wonder... it appears the Luke version was written by a monk in 800 - and so you have to wonder how much the story took on an importance simply by including lineage. Here is the Luke version in the book of Kells 800AD

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BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #152 on: November 18, 2019, 01:16:39 PM »
Huarwar the son of Aflawn (who asked Arthur such a boon as would satisfy him. It was the third great plague of Cornwall when he received it. Do you think that is referring to the black plague?
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #153 on: November 18, 2019, 01:21:37 PM »
aha this may be what these stories of jousting every knight on the road is really all about - not jousting an actual person but rather some negative behavior...

THE Welsh have a fable on the subject of the Hanner Dyn or Half Man, taken to be illustrative of the force of habit. In this allegory Arthur is supposed to be met by a sprite, who appears at first in a small and indistinct form, but who on approaching nearer increases in size, and, assuming the semblance of half a man, endeavours to provoke the king to wrestle. Despising his weakness, and considering that he should gain no credit by the encounter, Arthur refuses to do so, and delays the contest, until at length the Half Man (Habit) becomes so strong that it requires his utmost efforts to overcome him.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #154 on: November 18, 2019, 01:37:56 PM »
her cheek was redder than the reddest roses

My love is like a red red Rose
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOv3mDFtASM
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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #155 on: November 18, 2019, 02:04:11 PM »
http://www.aattt.org.uk/

With this website - Follow King Arthur's trail as he hunted the Twrch Trwyth through Wales and the South West. This new interactive website, which coincides with the publication of Margaret Isaac's new book, will map the route taken and record incidents from the quest.

OH the tale told by a local - wonderful
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avE9KYiqm7c
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #156 on: November 18, 2019, 04:28:25 PM »
BTW, an ell is about 45 inches, being six hands breath, and was primarily used to measure lengths of cloth. I make that lance of his to be 11.25 ft.

Good find, Barb. I'll get to it all a little later. Meanwhile, I just finished The Legends of King Arthur.

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #157 on: November 20, 2019, 06:36:21 AM »
I couldn't find much on Plinlimmon but Wikipedia shows a picture and gives a description of the name and meaning. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plynlimon

Here is an interesting article about Inglesborough which was used by the Romans as a signalling post up to the time they left England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingleborough

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #158 on: November 20, 2019, 09:43:27 AM »
I haven't started the next section yet, so I'll stick in my thoughts about Geraint and Enid.  In this story, the couple are genuinely in love with each other as persons, not just "here's a beautiful woman with property" or "he rescued me so now I have to marry him".

I can't make sense of Geraint's behavior.  He thinks Enid loves someone else, but what does he think he's doing?  Proving he's better than the imagined rival by killing everybody in sight?  He's lucky that things get straightened out in the end.

Gantz (translator of my hardback) contrasts the stories of Geraint and Owain.  They both win their lady, then lose her and must win her back, Owain by force of arms, and Geraint by asking forgiveness.  Owain has lost interest in his wife, and Geraint is afraid that his wife has lost interest in him.

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #159 on: November 20, 2019, 10:12:36 PM »
Can anybody explain to me why Kai got mad at Arthur and refused to help anymore? I see nothing in the little poem that would tic him off so much. Was it an insult to suggest that if Dillus were still alive after his debearding he would kill Kai?

According to Wikipedia, Armorica was the part of Gaul situated between the rivers Seine and Loire and include Brittany. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armorica

This is from Timeless Myths and has some interesting literary info not included in Wikipedia.  http://www.timelessmyths.com/celtic/armorican.html

A little info about Marie de France from the British Library: https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/the-lays-and-fables-of-marie-de-france and from Winthrop University https://www.bl.uk/collection-items/the-lays-and-fables-of-marie-de-france This last has several web sources, however I could only access one (the two poems). Project Gutenberg has a 1911 translation of her work. https://www.gutenberg.org/files/11417/11417-h/11417-h.htm  as well as Chretien de Troyes Four Arthurian Romances https://www.gutenberg.org/files/831/831-h/831-h.htm Tomorrow I am going to locate the kindle versions on Project Gutenberg so I can download them.