Author Topic: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OCT. 14,2009-Feb.17,2020  (Read 48699 times)

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2019, 10:06:27 AM »
Join us as we Read of
Strife, Struggle, the Underworld,
Chivalry and the Heroic in:


Chapter by Chapter
Each Week Starting
Monday, October 14
We eavesdrop on
the innermost thoughts,
the mental inheritance,
of mankind.
~

Translation by Lady Charlotte Guest
The Mabinogion

Schedule
October 14.......The Lady of the Fountain
October 28.......Peredur the Son of Evrawc
November 04....Geraint the Son of Erbin
November 11....Kilhwch and Olwen
November 18....The Dream of Rhonabwy
November 25....Pwyll Prince of Dyved
December 02....Branwen the Daughter of Llyr
December 09....Manawyddan the Son of Llyr
January 06.......Math the Son of Mathonwy
January 13.......The Dream of Maxen Wledig
January 20.......The Story of Lludd and Llevelys
January 27.......Taliesin

Discussion Leader: Barbara

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #41 on: October 21, 2019, 10:07:06 AM »
Yikes, new chapter! We haven't even said anything about this chapter yet.  I'll get my thoughts together and post them as soon as I can.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #42 on: October 21, 2019, 12:02:34 PM »
Yes, Pat it took us awhile to get into the story - let's postpone the new chapter till tomorrow - I too have to review the story with the information now about the gate - I need to see if my thought holds if he was a changed person after the gate versus before and if there are any other important symbols that may help us - I think it took us awhile to adjust to the realization this was an Arthur story so all the background on those stories and figuring out who the characters were became an issue - thanks for leaving the post open for the heading -
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #43 on: October 21, 2019, 02:17:45 PM »
An Illustrated Encyclopaedia of Traditional Symbols by J.C. Cooper -
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00BUHXG4O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Yes, I purchased the Kindle version so if you do not want to buy a copy and if any of you would like a word looked into please just ask and I will copy from the book

This excerpt is from a protracted explanation with many cultures and many aspects of water like diving into, crossing over, washing, watering the earth, water surround like a moat, on and on all having a slightly different meaning - and so I only copied the over-all symbolic meaning and then anything that pertains to fountains or bowls of water - to rain and the Christian and Celtic symbolism offered. 

Water: The waters are the source of all potentialities in existence; the source and grave of all things in the universe; the un-differentiated; the unmanifest; the first form of matter, ‘the liquid of the whole verification’ (Plato). All waters are symbolic of the Great Mother and associated with birth, the feminine principle, the universal womb, the prima materia, the waters of fertility and refreshment and the fountain of life. Water is the liquid counterpart of light. The waters are also equated with the continual flux of the manifest world, with unconsciousness, forgetfulness; they always dissolve, abolish, purify, ‘wash away’ and regenerate; they are associated with the moisture and circulatory movement of blood and the sap of life as opposed to the dryness and static condition of death; they revivify and infuse new life, hence baptism by water or blood in initiatory religions in which the water or blood also washes away the old life and sanctifies the new.

The waters of the Spring, or Fountain of Life, rise from the root of the Tree of Life in the centre of Paradise. As rain, water is the inseminating power of the sky god, fertility. As dew it is benediction and blessing, spiritual refreshment and the light of dawn.

The waters, like the tree, grove, stone, mountain, (the Summit or Hilltop in the story) can represent the cosmos in its entirety. Symbols of the life-giving, life-destroying, separating and uniting powers of the waters...

Celtic: The waters, lakes, sacred wells, etc. have magical properties and are the dwelling place of supernatural beings, such as the Lady of the Lake; they also give access to the other world, and the powers of the waters represent other-world wisdom and the foreknowledge of the gods. Tir-nan-og, the Celtic Paradise, the land of the ever-young, is either beyond, or under, the waters or, like the Green Isle, surrounded by water.

Christian: The waters of regeneration; renewal; cleansing; sanctification; refreshment; baptism. A spring of water depicts Christ as the fountain of life; the fountain, or living spring also represents the Virgin Mary, who is also the waters as the womb of creation.

Ice:  Rigidity; frigidity; brittleness; impermanence. Ice represents the gross waters of the earth as opposed to the ‘fresh’ and living waters of the fountain of Paradise. It also denotes hardness of heart; the coldness and absence of love.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #44 on: October 21, 2019, 02:24:01 PM »
Giant: The brute forces of nature; primordial power and forces; the elemental; darkness; night; winter. The giant can be beneficent or malefic, a defender or an enemy.

Pine: Uprightness; straightness; vitality; fertility; strength of character; silence; solitude; phallic. As evergreen it signifies immortality. It was thought to preserve the body from corruption, hence its use for coffins and its presence in cemeteries; it is apotropaic.

Wow - the whole thing about trees - is this what the story is reaching to express?

This is long so again I am only copying whatever could be pertinent to the grove of green trees.
Symbols of the tree are the pillar, post, notched pole, a branch, etc., all of which are often accompanied by a serpent, bird, stars, fruit and various lunar animals. Trees bearing life-foods are always sacred, such as the vine, mulberry, peach, date, almond and sesame.
 
Tree: The whole of manifestation; the synthesis of heaven, earth and water; dynamic life as opposed to the static life of the stone. Both an imago mundi and axis mundi, the ‘Tree in the midst’ joining the three worlds and making communication between them possible, also giving access to solar power; an omphalos; a world centre.

The tree also symbolizes the feminine principle, the nourishing, sheltering, protecting, supporting aspect of the Great Mother, the matrix and the power of the inexhaustible and fertilizing waters she controls; trees are often depicted in the style of a female figure.

Rooted in the depth of the earth, at the world centre, and in contact with the waters, the tree grows into the world of Time, adding rings to manifest its age, and its branches reach the heavens and eternity and also symbolize differentiation on the plane of manifestation.

An evergreen tree represents everlasting life, undying spirit, immortality. A deciduous tree is the world in constant renewal and regeneration, dying-to-live, resurrection, reproduction, the life principle. Both are a symbol of diversity in unity, the many branches rising from one root and returning again to unity in the potentiality of the seed of the fruit on those branches.

Symbols of the tree are the pillar, post, notched pole, a branch, etc., all of which are often accompanied by a serpent, bird, stars, fruit and various lunar animals. Trees bearing life-foods are always sacred, such as the vine, mulberry, peach, date, almond and sesame.

Celtic: Various trees are sacred: the oak, beech, hazel, ash, yew; the Druidic oak and mistletoe represent the male and female powers. Esus appears with the willow tree. The Gaulish alder and yew are sacred, as are the Irish holly and yew, and the Gaelic rowan, which also has magical powers. Kentigern, or Mungo, is associated with the tree.

Christian: As putting forth both good and evil fruits, the tree is an image of man; as renewal through Christ’s death on the cross it is resurrection. The tree of the cross was symbolically made from the wood of the Tree of Knowledge, so that salvation and life were fulfilled on the tree through which had come the Fall and death, the vanquisher vanquished. The cross is sometimes identified with the Tree in the Midst, the vertical axis of communication between heaven and earth.

Medieval Christian symbolism has a Tree of the Living and Dead, bearing good and bad fruit on opposite sides and portraying good and evil deeds, with Christ as the trunk, the unifying Tree of Life, which is also depicted as the central of the three crosses on Calvary.

Birds: Transcendence; the soul; a spirit; divine manifestation; spirits of the air; spirits of the dead; ascent to heaven; ability to communicate with gods or to enter into a higher state of consciousness; thought; imagination.

Birds frequently accompany the Hero on his quest or in slaying the dragon. Flocks of birds are magic or supernatural powers connected with gods or heroes.

Celtic: Ambivalent as both divinity and the happy otherworld, or as magic power and malevolence... Birds are also messengers of the gods.

Christian: Winged souls; the spiritual; souls in Paradise. The Christ Child is often depicted holding a bird.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #45 on: October 21, 2019, 02:56:34 PM »
OK I think we got it - this is a spiritual quest - lots more symbols but unless you ask, onward to the change after the gate
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #46 on: October 21, 2019, 03:03:56 PM »
whoops couldn't pass this up - justifies what you shared frybabe about the gate as a passage

Castle: Shares the symbolism of the enclosure and of the walled and defended city and represents the difficult to obtain; spiritual testing. It usually holds some treasure or imprisoned person and is inhabited by a monster or wicked person who must be overcome to obtain the treasure or release the imprisoned, which depicts the treasure of esoteric knowledge or spiritual attainment. BRIDGE symbolism (q.v.) is also involved in crossing the moat to the castle.

Bridge: Communication between heaven and earth, one realm and another; uniting man with the divinity. In rites of PASSAGE (q.v.) it is the transition from one plane to another; the passage to reality. In the primordial state, in the Golden Age, man could cross at will, as there was no death; the bridge is now crossed only at death, or in mystical states, or in initiation ceremonies, or by solar heroes. In crossing the perilous bridge man proves he is a spirit and returns to the lost Paradise.

Yep, our Owain is a solar hero.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #47 on: October 21, 2019, 03:20:47 PM »
Nail: A symbol of the Cosmic Axis. It also shares the symbolism of binding and is fate and necessity.

Interesting - this is the first I ever heard that a loosing knight is sold

And of course we all know the symbolism of the number 3 - from the British Triads to the Trinity. Goodness there are three's all over the place...

Christian: The Trinity, the soul, the union of body and soul in man and in the Church. There are three gifts of the Magi to Christ as God-King-Sacrifice; three figures of transformation, temptations, denials by Peter, crosses on Calvary, days of the death of Christ, appearances after death, Marys, and the qualities, or theological virtues, of Faith, Hope and Love.

The only difference in the Christian versus the Celtic is the book says, three is a particularly significant number in Celtic tradition.

Balm/Balsam: Love; sympathy; rejuvenation.

And so it appears we have penance as he wondered to a summit and allowed himself to be mal-nurished, with clothes in taters and then when he hits bottom along come the maidens who rejuvenate him. During the middle ages we know that penance often meant living for a time in sack-cloth and ashes in prayer so this would fit.

Appears to be a redemption element to the story...

“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #48 on: October 21, 2019, 03:51:11 PM »
SEVEN: The number of the universe, the macrocosm. Completeness; a totality. With the three of the heavens and the soul and the four of the earth and the body, it is the first number which contains both the spiritual and temporal. It is perfection; security; safety; rest; plenty; reintegration; synthesis, also virginity and the number of the Great Mother. There are seven cosmic stages, heavens, hells, major planets and metals of the planets, circles of the universe, rays of the sun, ages of man, pillars of wisdom, lunar divisions of the rainbow, days of the week, notes of the scale, wonders of the world etc. The seventh ray of the sun is the path by which man passes from this world to the next.

Christian: God is represented by the seventh ray in the centre of the six rays of creation. There are seven sacraments; gifts of the spirit; the seven of the 3 + 4 theological and cardinal virtues; deadly sins; tiers or mountains in Purgatory; liberal arts; crystal spheres containing the planets; major prophets; angels of the Presence; devils cast out by Christ; period of fasting and penitence; joys and sorrows of Mary; champions of Christendom; councils of the early Church.

Beechen - consisting of or made of wood of the beech tree.
Beech Tree: Prosperity; divination. Sacred to Zeus. Emblem of Denmark.

Lion: Ambivalent as both solar and lunar, good and evil. As solar it represents the heat of the sun, the splendour and power of the noonday sun; the fiery principle; majesty; strength; courage; fortitude; justice; law; military might; the King of the Beasts; but it is also cruelty; ferocity; and the sub-human modes of life; it is a symbol of war and an attribute of war gods. As lunar it is the lioness accompanying the Great Mother, or drawing her chariot, and typifying the maternal instinct...

Christian: Ambivalent as both Christ’s power and might, his kingly nature as the Lion of Judah, or the power of Christ to deliver the Christian from the lion’s mouth which is the Devil as ‘a roaring lion’. The lion was supposed to sleep with its eyes open, hence it depicted vigilance, spiritual watchfulness and fortitude; as a sentinel it supported the pillars of the Church. It was also believed that the cubs were born dead and life was breathed into them by the sire, (tra la I think this is it )... hence the lion as a symbol of resurrection. As a solitary animal it signified the hermit and solitude. The lion was taken as the emblem of St Mark since his gospel emphasized the royalty and majesty of Christ. It is also an emblem of SS Adrian, Euphemia, Jerome, Mary of Egypt, Paul the Hermit, Prisca, Thecla. In catacomb paintings the story of Daniel in the lions’ den is symbolic of God’s redemption of his people.



 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #49 on: October 21, 2019, 04:08:03 PM »
GREY: The neutral; mourning; depression; ashes; humility; penitence.
Christian: Death of the body and immortality of the soul; hence the colour worn by religious communities.

Rock: Permanence; stability; reliability; rigidity; coldness and hardness. The Living Rock is man’s primordial self.
Christian: Christ is the rock, the source of living waters and the pure river of the Gospels. The rock is also strength, refuge, steadfastness; it is a symbol of St Peter.

A Roebuck is a male Deer. The roe deer is relatively small, reddish and grey-brown, and well-adapted to cold environments.
Deer: Frequently depicted with the Tree of Life.
Celtic: Deer are the supernatural animals of the fairy world and are fairy cattle and divine messengers. Deer skin and antlers are ritual vestments.


“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #50 on: October 21, 2019, 04:10:33 PM »
Now what this last bit is all about I cannot figure - it to me is like anti-climactic - what is the reason for this castle and the 2 sons and the giant and the savage black man and the 24 damsels being returned to Arthur - maybe I am tired if the story - but it was as if the story needed a better editor and yet, it was passed down for hundreds of years so it must have some value... Can any of you make any sense out of it...

I guess to be fair I should show the symbolic meaning for the number 2

TWO: Duality; alternation; diversity; conflict; dependence; otherness; the static condition; the rooted, hence balance, stability; reflection; the opposite poles; the dual nature of man; desire, since all that is manifest in duality is in pairs of opposites. As one represents a point, so two signifies length. The Binary is the first number to recede from Unity, hence it also symbolizes sin which deviates from the first good and so denotes the transitory and corruptible.
Christian: Christ with two natures as God and man.

Son: The double; the living image; the alter ego.

Giant: The brute forces of nature; primordial power and forces; the elemental; darkness; night; winter. The giant can be beneficent or malefic, a defender or an enemy.
 

 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

SouthernLady1948

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #51 on: October 21, 2019, 04:24:19 PM »
I keep getting an error message when I try to download The Mabinogion from this site's link, so I went into Amazon.com and bought a Kindle version that turns out to have no annotation. Could you please suggest a version on Amazon that is annotated? I don't care if it's hardback, paperpack or what, just so it's annotated. I can't tell from the Amazon website if any of these is annotated. Can you help me? Thanks,
SouthernLady1848

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #52 on: October 21, 2019, 05:20:39 PM »
Oh my - first welcome Southern Lady 1948 - I was just on the site and after reading your post I went in again but as you say it is showing not available - I think it is probably a temporary issue - the web site that we have used with this and many more books is www.sacred-texts.com - which is too big a web site to have all the books unavailable --- as to an annotated edition on Amazon I never found one - and so this site was a God Send - now the book without annotations is available in the Gutenberg Library

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/5160/5160-h/5160-h.htm

whoops Southern Lady you may want to try again - after putting in  www.sacred-texts.com the site popped up and then I filled in on the site Mabinogion and voila - need to try it again with our link - the link may need to be refreshed
but this is what is on my computer

https://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/mab/mab03.htm

I too searched and searched on Amazon - even the books and their Kindle with Lady Charlotte's translation did not have the annotations that are offered on the sacred-texts site.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #53 on: October 21, 2019, 05:24:25 PM »
tra la - yes, they had changed some of the URL and so the current correct URL is now linked in the heading - looks like something I need to keep up with... please if any of you notice the link not working let me know - here it was less than a half hour since I was in using the old link and I could not access the book.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mobinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #54 on: October 21, 2019, 05:32:02 PM »
OK it appears the format for the book has changed - rather than opening to a page with everything under each chapter it appears the next link is now at the bottom of the page - example  - after reading the entire story for chapter one than at the bottom is the link to the notes - lots more manipulating this site --- oh wait - now it is not letting me go to the other chapters - I sure hope they are not removing this and only showing the one chapter - the link to the Amazon version of the book does not link to any thing

we may be having to change our plan and either use the Gutenberg without annotations or maybe I can find this on Amazon - shoot shoot shoot
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #55 on: October 21, 2019, 05:43:43 PM »
Ok the only thing on Amazon I could find by Lady Charlotte is this -

The Mabinogion (Xist Classics) Kindle Edition
by Lady Charlotte Guest (Author)

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B015WRYS4O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_d_asin_title_o00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I have not had a chance to look to see if it is as the web site with annotations - I've my groceries coming - bear with us please
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #56 on: October 21, 2019, 05:47:41 PM »
FOUND IT - it appears to be an exact copy of what Sacred Texts had on their web page - it is a kindle version cost $1.99

https://www.amazon.com/MABINOGION-Hergest-Century-manuscript-Medieval-ebook/dp/B01M1JTJNY/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=The+Mabinogion+Lady+Charlotte+Guest+annotated&qid=1571694271&s=books&sr=1-3#reader_B01M1JTJNY

there does not appear to be a hard or softback copy with annotations on Amazon
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #57 on: October 21, 2019, 06:26:17 PM »
Sacred Texts is defiantly working on their web site - just tried again and could not get in - let's see what happens - hopefully it will come back and there will be a way I can contact them to see what is happening and if we will be able to use their site to read the book - the same annotated publication, a kindle version is available - let's find out where we are - if everyone can get the kindle version and if not do we go forward without annotations and use the Gutenberg online or does your library have a copy - I know frybabe has another translation on her book shelf - “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft a-gley.”   
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

SouthernLady1948

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #58 on: October 21, 2019, 06:43:51 PM »
Got it! And it is annotated! Now, not to be picky, but the font is green, and using a black background doesn't help my eyes. It seems that somewhere in the many pages of notes I've read today I saw something about changing the appearance of the font. Is there some way to make the font black?

marmieone

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #59 on: October 21, 2019, 07:14:07 PM »
Barb-It always happens that when i feel guilty about having so many books around, that I spot another one that is a "must have!"  That illlustrated Encyclopedia of Symbols will be on my kindle shortly. 
    I have been watching the comments on the gate chopping the horse in half and it did make me wonder if there was a hesitation on the part of the rider - should I go forward or back? Is it a concern with his courage or lack of knowledge of the unknown?  In the stories so far there doesn't seem to be much hesitation - the knight simply must have a quest no matter the cost. At any rate, the horse-chopping bit was startling.

marmieone

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #60 on: October 21, 2019, 07:19:13 PM »
I did purchase the copy by Lady Guest as listed on Amazon. It has no annotations until Taliesin and only had seven minimal ones for that.  I was pretty disappointed until I saw that you had posted the notes for each one on this site. 

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #61 on: October 21, 2019, 07:58:13 PM »
marmieone I loved what you saw in the story

"on the gate chopping the horse in half and it did make me wonder if there was a hesitation on the part of the rider - should I go forward or back? Is it a concern with his courage or lack of knowledge of the unknown? "

Never thought of that but wow - what a message -

And yes, I know... the books... this one is like a dictionary when we are reading serious literature - I've had my copy for at least 25 to 30 years - Amazing what we miss because in our culture today we do not put a lot of thought into symbolic language - ha we do not anylonger even have a barber pole to alert us to where to get your hair cut and a shave.

OK Looked a bit ago and the book is still online with Sacred Text and so are Lady Charlotte's notes - just showing in a different format - I put the changed link in the heading and it appears what I am going to have to do is get the link for each chapter in the heading so that when you click on the name of the story for that chapter it will be a link to the chapter.

I'll put together a large font size emergency notice tomorrow to alert everyone the change Sacred Text made to their web site - So we will still have access as we did - thank goodness

talk about having several arms - all this was happening and then my grocery order from Whole Foods did not have several items and you have to accept or decline the change they were offering online - I do not have a cell that does all that so I had to keep switching web sites on this computer - Then had Citi Bank on the line trying to help me stop some company in Connecticut from sending and charging my account for these magazines that I had called about to Amazon that started this whole thing, to the subscription department of each magazine and the publishers and to my credit card and tonight we decided the best thing is to issue me a new card and of course I will not show it on Amazon which will be a problem but I cannot keep getting magazines that I did not authorize - all that and I'm supposed to be retired - reminded me of closing a transaction with lender, title company, inspector and the other agent all on the line at once. 

OK I am breathing again - thank goodness there is something on our PBS channel tonight- Hathaway and Shakespeare and something about Paradise, a Brit something in the Caribbean -

looks like I had no choice today to continue - I am the world's worst for putting off what is new especially if I have to ask someone for something so your observation about the horse and the gate was just what I needed to hear. Thanks 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #62 on: October 22, 2019, 04:34:41 AM »
Oh dear Southern Lady I completely missed your post from last evening about the font being  green - are you talking about the font on the kindle - if so I think the kindle font color, background color and size of font are all changed on the kindle as opposed to on your computer even if you are reading the kindle downloaded book on your computer. - let me check out my copy and see what I can tell you...

OK I looked at my kindle copy and yes, green on black is not a fun way to read is it... the change must be made on that kindle page - up on top you should see a link with a double Aa - choices are limited and it does not look like there is a choice of font color and so I changed my background from black to sepia and automatically the font turned black - not bad - however, that change affects all the books - and so I have to decide if when I read another book if I want to switch back to the black - means a lot of switching  - so we shall see what we shall see over the next few months

I am hopeful that I can go back and read on the  Sacred Text site but that will not be as smooth as it was either- the Gods are not with us... maybe it is our Knightly challenge ;)

I am so glad you are joining us - the read is a bit different however, we have done this period in the past - I remember especially our reading Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and we did Seamus Heaney's Beowulf when his translation first hit the bookshelves - so we should enjoy ourselves. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #63 on: October 22, 2019, 04:35:17 AM »
Hear ye! Hear ye!

Yesterday afternoon - in fact while Southern Lady was attempting to read Mabinogion online using our link to the web site, Sacred texts, the website said she could not access and then later after I tried the main URL, the book popped up but was changed and I was limited to only having access to the first chapter.

Obviously they were changing their site as we were trying to access it...

Looked into the book with annotations on Amazon and found the exact copy of what we have been reading on Sacred Texts however, the book can still be read online on the Sacred Texts website including the notes however, there are changes.

To make easier the changes which include, rather than an linkable index with all aspects of each chapter showing in one place - now we must read or scroll the entire chapter-story till at the bottom of the last page of the story there is a link to the notes.

My plan is to let the website, Sacred Texts settle down and then to link the beginning of each chapter to the heading so that the name of the story in our heading will be a link to the chapter.

As of now there is no linkable index or chapter content for Mabinogoion on the Sacred Texts website version - it is as reading a book, page after page with no indexed chapter - it appears everything is there - just in a new format with a new URL link.

It will take a day or so to work out the changes and so... dah dah dah daahh... we will not start the second Chapter till Friday and we could just wait and start the next chapter on Monday, October 28 - y'all decide... - As soon as I can, I will change what ever must be changed in the heading - so please bare with us.

In the meantime we were slow getting into the first story as we circled and circled what we were reading and found out more about the Arthur stories. However, blessings in disguise, we can take time to share our thoughts about this first story while the Sacred Text website settles down and I can make the necessary changes.

If you prefer, Amazon has this annotated version only for the kindle - not available as either a hardback or softback book version. There are other translation. Also, there are other kindle additions of the translation made by Lady Charlotte Guest however, the wording of the translations is not the same and none of them, regardless the translator have these more extensive annotations

Here is the link to the Kindle version of the book we have been reading online on the Sacred Text web page.  I believe on Amazon the cost of this Kindle version is $1.99

https://www.amazon.com/MABINOGION-Hergest-Century-manuscript-Medieval-ebook/dp/B01M1JTJNY/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=The+Mabinogion+Lady+Charlotte+Guest+annotated&qid=1571694271&s=books&sr=1-3#reader_B01M1JTJNY
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #64 on: October 22, 2019, 07:45:57 AM »
 Brief, but it brings out that the tales were not static. The oral bards, while keeping the basics of the stories, often improvised on the details.
https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofWales/The-Mabinogion/

An essay of The Camelot Project at Rochester University. The student author of this article is now or has recently graduated from Yale University with a PhD in Medieval Studies.
https://d.lib.rochester.edu/camelot/text/rider-bezerra-mabinogion-project

I've never been much interested in hidden symbolism. These stories seem to me simply tales to entertain, especially the youngsters. How long they were told and changed over the years before someone (or several someones) wrote them down, and did the original writers also change the narrative some. However, we do know that Christians and pagans did not mix well so hidden symbolism may have crept into the early tales.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Wales  https://www.churchinwales.org.uk/life/heritage/a-wonderful-inheritance/1-in-the-beginning/

Now back to the story. I don't know that I could stomach marrying someone who killed my husband. It is not clear to me whether the Lady was fond of her first husband and not, nor wherher or not she followed mourning proticols before marrying Owain. Was there any kind of courtship or simply a quick marriage of convenience? This is about where I left off before starting the next story, I am going back and reading the rest now.

Aside from The Mabinigion I am still listening to How Rome Fell. What an absolute confusion of "Emperors" with all the rapid changes from in the 4th through early 6th centuries. I am getting at or near the point where I want to start paying particular attention for any "Arthurian" type leaders showing up. It seems to me that some of the action in these tales took place on the continent (particularly France) rather than in England.  I got the impression from somewhere that Arthur spent some time there, forget where I got that notion. I do not, however, expect to see Goldsworthy commenting on the Arthurian legends.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #65 on: October 23, 2019, 01:36:50 PM »
Wow frybabe I was hours last night on just the first site - I had no idea about, The National Eisteddfod of Wales Copied from the page it explains the Eisteddfod "dates back to 1176 when it is said that the first Eisteddfod was held. Lord Rhys invited poets and musicians from all over Wales to a grand gathering at his castle in Cardigan. A chair at the Lord’s table was awarded to the best poet and musician, a tradition that continues today in the modern Eisteddfod."

And then a really wonderful article on the Druids - who they were - which I did not know they held such a prestige position in the culture - so much so they did not pay taxes and were more accurately the priests not just those who 'worshiped' for want of a better word.

The site goes on and on with each description linking to something that brings another page of really good information - I have not even yet opened the next link - this is great frybabe
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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #66 on: October 23, 2019, 02:30:27 PM »
Just looked at the second link frybabe - looks like another for tonight because it will take time to read through just that much - seems to me I came across the Camelot site before but totally missed this page - scrolling down there is one of the graphics, a pen and ink sketch, that appears to be two pages holding a long pole in what appears to be the dining hall - can you dope out what they are doing?

As to the symbols the way I look at it they are only secret now because we do not use symbols as we onetime did- or maybe we do but they are so changed that like slang it changes our language with time - I'm still remembering when the sign outside the shoemaker was just a shoe or boot and outside the barber was a red and white pole - even still had up to the early 80s a general store that sold chew with a large wooden Indian, the signal that a store sold tobacco. Kids today have no clue and so that is how I look at symbols in literature. Also I guess having grown up Catholic attending Catholic schools there was a lot of symbolism wrapped in not only the reading material but the devotional practices.

What was really fun for me - back when I got this and three other books on interpreting symbols I used this one and read an entire book by just looking up the symbolic words - bingo it was so easy to see the theme and what it was all about - more fun then trying to dope out what was going on from just reading the text.

One that I have a copy of Nature and Its Symbols show everyword, not only its meaning but the book has at least one but usually more illustrations of famous works of art where the berry or animal or flower, tree, nut or veggie is used to help tell the story that was painted - fascinating - like our deer Much later in history the deer were carved on a frieze that surrounded the walls of a tomb in Italy - seems in the early church a thirsty stag seeking a spring was well known as the believer seeking God and a nearby doe is surrounded by rosebushes in bloom alluding to the Garden of Eden - looking at the photo of the frieze without knowing this I would have no clue except it would be a nice carving that included deer in a scene that highlighted an interesting shaped cross.

Yep, you can see I love looking into symbolism but then without considering any symbolism there are parts of a story that I bet you can share your enjoyment with and how you see the scene fresh from what you read. I did notice this version of the Arthur story was not logically making a lot of sense but, oh the adventure of it - the dare and do, courage and nobility of each character - the world when we like to think folks were all about proving themselves and seeking the best as the code of life.

Sure gave a picture of women when within days or at least only a couple of weeks after the death of her husband she had to have a male champion who would go to battle to protect the castle from take-over and this champion had to be a husband - no feelings, just make it legal in order to keep her home and remain in the castle.  Although, later in the story she sounded as if she cared about him.   

Trying to figure out the difference between damsels and maidens - toward the end the 24 are called maidens where as throughout the story they are referred to as damsels.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #67 on: October 23, 2019, 02:55:02 PM »
Wasn't Lancelot from Brittany? Seems to me a few of the early writers who put these stories on paper were French, like Chrétien de Troyes and another very early writer Robert de Boron was French - was this a time when Brittany was all part of England - was this where the Norman influence comes from or is that earlier - do not have set in my mind when the Saxons came - which I know they came to the northern part of England and worked their way south originally from what is now Germany - I think the Danes came earlier - the Vikings raided northern villages mostly in Ireland and Scotland much earlier and the Normans I think mean people from Normandy which is located next to Brittany - Do you know frybabe how all this fits - I remember we studied in second year High School History much about early England but the emphasis for what ever reason was later, on the war of the Roses - ha just thought - of course - it was a Catholic High School and the War of the Roses had everything to do with religion. Haha takes me 70 years to figure that out... oh oh oh. 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #68 on: October 23, 2019, 07:02:58 PM »
I finally found the the edition of Lady Guest's book with a forward by C. E. G. Dowlais dated 1848. The impression I got from the introduction is that Dowlais believed that the early tales were mostly of Welsh origin. At some point the tales made it across the channel, got embellished and retold with a (mainly) French leaning, then after a few hundred years came back across the channel with embellishments and new tales based on similar themes. He based his conclusions on studying names and place names, and the differences between how Welsh and continental (again mostly French) peoples assigned names.  He believed that Wales has "strong claims to be considered the cradle of European Romance". I haven't read far into the what the Camelot scholar has to say yet. I hope he addresses this issue of origin. I just kind of thought the tales came across with the Roman Auxiliaries and the Welsh made them their own. I could very well have been the other way around with the Romans taking the tales back to the continent when they left. Mostly though, it probably has a lot to do with the clergy and scribes since they are the ones most likely to write the tales down and take them along when they travel. I recall reading a book years ago called The Flowering of Ireland. It was all about the very early literary tradition of the Island fostered by the early arrival of monks. I still have it. It was a good book; I should read it again sometime.

The knights themselves seem to have come from all over the place. Gawain, for example, seems to have come from the upper reaches of Scotland where his father was King of Orkney and Lothian. Well, I guess that explains why, every once in a while, I see mentions of the possibility that Camelot was in Scotland. In fact, I vaguely remember some years ago that someone thought they found the round table (or the site where it was) in Scotland. Okay, another thing to research. 

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #69 on: October 25, 2019, 06:42:58 AM »
I got to wondering about the black lion. Could it be that is was, in fact, a panther? Panthers with a black color variant do exist in Africa and Asia. They would likely been known to Romans who were fond of importing various animals for their private collections and gladiatorial games. Otherwise, there are black-maned lions, but no fully black lions exist except in PhotoShop manipulations.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #70 on: October 25, 2019, 10:23:29 AM »
Well, it's a fair assumption Owain didn't have Photoshop. ;). Maybe the color is symbolic.  It's a white lion in the other book, also improbable.

I wonder if Roman-imported animals sometimes escaped and wandered around for a while before coming to grief.

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #71 on: October 25, 2019, 10:43:23 AM »
One theme of this story is the conflict of duties.  By marrying the Countess, Owain takes on the duty of being the black knight of the fountain and defending her lands.  But as a knight of the Round Table, he already had duties that lay elsewhere, being part of the court, and doing his share of the quests and fights and peacekeeping of the court.  For a while he sticks with the Countess, but eventually can't resist the court, and doesn't return from his supposedly short visit.  Finally, he becomes ashamed of his treachery, and eventually goes back, kicks out the usurpers, and takes the Countess back with him to Arthur's court, where she stays, as his wife, for the rest of his life.

But what about her property, which was considerable?  Who grabbed it then?  She certainly didn't get the bargain she was looking for when she married Owain.  Let's hope she loved Owain, liked life at court, and considered it a fair exchange.                                                                                                                                                                       

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #72 on: October 25, 2019, 10:50:43 AM »
Gantz points out we get another story, that of Geraint and Enid, in which the opposite choice is made, and Geraint neglects his duty in devotion to his lady.

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #73 on: October 25, 2019, 03:13:21 PM »
That is what I get also frybabe - that the stories including the Arthur stories started in Wales and as they were found and written down the writers put their twist on it - one of the book I read said it would be natural that all the story tellers put a twist on the stories - the big difference that I see is, and I wish I could remember the site, but anyhow where Christianity had come to Wales while the Romans were still there after they left the locals would have nothing to do with Christianity - the Pope sent St.Augustine but his influence was in England and could not budge the Welsh who returned to their earlier gods - then the one book said they accepted Christianity in the 6th century while another said the 10th century.

For my two cents this to me is a valuable difference since I read these stories with a strong Christian influence that I bet was not so much added, it is just if you are telling a story and your whole viewpoint is from a Christian mindset it naturally flows that you tell the story not only from your own mindset but you are telling a story for others to hear and knowing their viewpoint of course you tell the story so they understand and so my bet is the writers, especially the French writers tell the story with Christian overtones - The time in history the story takes place as I understand is after the Romans leave and probably around the 6th century. And even that - telling a story in the 10th, 11th and 12th century about things that happened at least 4 centuries early can only be how they imagine it was - it is not like there are books describing how it was, or today having documentaries - all they could do is use what they know and their imagination like sitting around a fire and telling a story that starts in their mind as, long ago there was a man...

As to the lion hmm I wonder - do you think the lion like dragons were representing, even then, something like a fantasy novel today has a challenge or buddy figure that is often other worldly. I doubt many ever saw a lion even in the 14th century - we know the kings and queens had zoo enclaves but how many who heard these stories had been to London to see the king and his zoo. Another aspect of these written stories - when they were written how many could actually read - didn't we read someplace that after Gregory of Monmouth wrote his book on Arthur it all but disappeared for several hundred years - My guess is if 5% of the population read it, he would be lucky - it would have had to be hand copied - no printing press in the 12th century.

Just thinking this through and trying to piece it together - from what I get there were a few early authors like, but probably others, Gregory followed by Robert de Boron who is credited with finding and writing down the stories of both Merlin and the Grail aspect with the story brought centuries before by Joseph of Arimathea then, we have the Vulgate writers, who they have not yet identified followed by Chrétien de Troyes and Thomas Malory - they all write with a different slant and add different parts of the story. All were working independently and writing down tales that were over a couple of centuries of oral retelling, they are all writing down what is hear-say, that those in the profession are pinning down as having started in Wales after the Romans left - Actually now that I think of it - they are writing down in prose and poetry what they heard, as did Francis James Child in the nineteenth century, who traveled, collected and published his 10 part study of The English and Scottish Popular Ballads.

My guess they are all trying to be true to the story as they heard it and anyone talking about a Lion probably never saw one, just as they never saw a dragon and so to me, the black lion is like today, Harry Potter has his 'house elf', there is also the Hippogriff. In other myths and legends there is the Griffin.  As a black lion or for that matter a white lion that we know lion's are not black nor white to me says this is a fantasy creature included to make the story more fierce. Heck even the flag of Wales has big and bold a 'red' dragon

Ok found this online "The lion, with such repute of its noble nature and having the position and title of king of the beasts, is naturally one of the most common heraldic symbols on the continent of Europe. An emblem of majesty, strength, and justice, military might and deathless courage"
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #74 on: October 25, 2019, 03:20:53 PM »
Pat you can always put it is a nutshell - I love that about your posts - and yes, hopefully it was a good exchange but I'm thinking she did not have much to say about it - it was either go with Owain or be the chattel to this guy next door who was after the castle the minute her first husband died or I guess she could live in the woods and be homeless. Ah so we make light of all this - the choices for women through out the centuries....  :'(
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2019, 03:42:21 PM »
Hear Ye! Hear Ye!

It appears the website Sacred Texts has settled down with the changed link in our heading working however, the book read is in a different format - We could have picked up and started today but, no one wants to start a discussion of new material on a Friday so we pick up with the second chapter on Monday. The calendar in the heading is updated.

This evening, to save a lot of scrolling on the Sacred Text website, I'll link the story for the second chapter in the heading - please though, through the weekend, continue to share your thoughts on this first story - any thought - not necessarily a researched thought - amazing how we each see something different in the books we read and these stories or no different - so please just share what hits you as you read these tales.

Onward...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2019, 05:38:27 PM »
Barb, your comment about the lions and dragons reminded me that the Scots flag is a lion rampant. It was first used by Alexander II of Scotland as a royal emblem in 1222. The use of a dragon to represent Wales was first recorded in the Historia Brittonum in 859 AD. However, there appears to be some evidence (ah yes, another search) that the Dragon evolved from and earlier version, possibly a Roman-British national symbol, but also associated with Celtic leaders and, of course, King Arthur (his battle standard).
The current flag is of Tudor origin. The Tudors were a Welsh aristocratic family.  I found this history of the Welsh flag. Very interesting. https://web.archive.org/web/20120809011046/http://welshflag.org/

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #77 on: October 28, 2019, 05:14:49 AM »
Well this is a much longer story isn't it -

right off the bat something is mentioned that I never heard of - Romance of Ipomydon - looks like it was a poem story about courtly love... found a piece of it on this Google excerpt from History of English Poetry from the Twelfth to the Close of the Sixteenth Century.
https://books.google.com/books?id=CcN8nEmUbwgC&pg=PA188&lpg=PA188&dq=Romance+of+Ipomydon&source=bl&ots=UkomCZ_y1U&sig=ACfU3U3c2Kk9F-D_bEdTNPt_QS8ZePoX6g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjdh5LHyb7lAhUCL6wKHQkQBm4Q6AEwBXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=Romance%20of%20Ipomydon&f=false

another word new to me - Frontlet
    A band worn by women across the forehead and secured beneath the chin. It often formed the basis of headwear. During the 15c black became an increasingly fashionable colour, perhaps by way of contrast when framing a white forehead and face.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2019, 07:07:46 AM »
What we seem to have with "Peredur Son of Evrawc" is a coming of age type adventure where Peredur goes through a series of adventures in order to be accepted as a man (knight).

What brutish behaviors some of these characters have. The women are very meek indeed. Once Peredur discovered knights, Mom didn't seem to put up any argument, just gave him advice about whom to seek out for support and employment. Then there is the Lady who he encountered where she gave up a jewel without any distress or argument. Peredur didn't threaten, he just stated that his Mother said that he should take things. Not ask, take. Well, i suppose he may have looked threatening. But, rules of hospitality still wouldn't have let someone just take something. Maybe the tale is incomplete or maybe the oral narrators assumed that their audience understood the finer points without being told. Still, this sounds similar to the hospitality offered to guests in ancient China. Guests, whether invited or not, whether other aristocrats, officials, or lowly messengers, were given fresh clean clothing, food to eat, a place to rest, and very often, gifts. The guests did not demand or ask for these things. Of course, some messengers were killed for bringing certain messages. The ultimate "gift". The Chinese were much more elegant and rigid proper manners.

One puzzlement is that at the beginning, I thought the idea was that Peredur was going through all this 1) to refuse to step foot in Arthur's presence until he avenged the dwarf couple, and 2. to prove himself to Arthur, et.al. that he was worthy of becming a knight. Later in the story, Arthur seems to indicate that Peredur was already a knight and that he missed him. I don't remember Arthur meeting him at the beginning of the tale.

PatH

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Re: Mabinogion ~ Fall-Winter BookClub Online ~ OPENS OCT. 14
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2019, 09:19:40 AM »
I only have a few minutes to post now, so can't look it up.  I think that when Peredur took some armor from a victim and started looking respectable they said OK, you're a knight.

Another puzzle: how, with his incomplete education, did Peredur get to be such a skillful fighter that he's never defeated?

The jewel: Peredur seems to be very attractive to women.  Maybe he charms them into giving him things.