Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 371949 times)

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1120 on: October 21, 2010, 06:06:38 PM »
Welcome Deb - i share you love of learning and have enjoyed this site, plus there are tons of books, old and new, re: history. History seems to be a new fad these days, many books being written on U.S. History, Women's history, etc. But my other recent find is the Gutenberg Project and other free books on line. Most of them are out of print and therefore can be provided free. Many of them were written in previous centuries, so are sometimes hard to read w/out a dictionary nearby, but i've found many to be very interesting. (One of the reasons i love my new ipad is that i can sit comfortably almost anywhere and read those old books and have a "dictionary on my lap" as well. ) And isn't it wonderful how people provide us w/ websites to see the places, people and arts that we are talking about?

Please join in the discussion, not all of us have expertise in whatever the subject or period is at the moment. Also, been in enough groups to know that if i have a question, someone else is probably mentally asking the same question, but hasn't verbalized it yet......lol..............jean

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1121 on: October 21, 2010, 06:19:57 PM »
History can not forgive, nor condemn. Only individuals can do so, and I don't believe, if we are now truly more civilized, that any today would forgive Sextus

I tho't the same thing when i read that "passive tense" paragraph. I believe that must have been Durant's thinking, not history's????

Is it because life was so difficult in previous periods of history that powerful people were almost always so cruel? ......... altho as i write that i realize that terrible cruelties are still happening. I guess Torquemada  and the tho'ts of the Spanish Inquistion made me think about the most cruel tortures. I have read about them often and always i just think "how can people be so cruel?" Why the lack of empathy? .............jean

bookad

  • Posts: 284
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1122 on: October 22, 2010, 12:26:35 PM »
hi Jean
we all talk about history; but we are really talking about perspective, are we not?  ...this was bought home to me via an American friend when we were discussing the war of 1812, and recollections of learning about it in high school, and thru readings (Pierre Burton, a Canadian author wrote 2 books about this time frame, and put humanizing issues into the read i.e. one group of warring individuals who in getting ready to raid a group, set up boats for their escape, but someone forgot the paddles, and they were stranded )...I also learned from my American friend that those people I was labelling as 'Empire Loyalists', had quite a different cogitation when being referred to in the United States.....much the same as the Englishman Wolfe who fought and won against the Frenchman Montcalm on the Quebec 'Plains of Abraham' has always been a hero in our English history, but I would be interested in reading a Quebec history of the same time period, and see how it is being presented.
And so for all history I imagine...the perspective, prejudices, open-mindedness, of the observer/writer....influences changing what was once '...a today for people whose lives we look at from the distance of time'...our today...and perhaps we can never truly understand those people's actions; their feeling, perspectives, duress...with centuries standing between us
...even today trying to understand the Middle East and how people view their lives  & communicate across the distance of miles, & cultural attitudes & practices & behaviours, is a major buttress in our world of 2010....the author 'Rory Stewart' gave me wonderful perspective of their being, thu his books 'The Places in Between', & 'The Prince of the Marshes first book where he (a Scottish individual) was able to wander thru back areas of the middle east and he wrote of the people he met & their interactions......unbelievable compared to what I experience in my everyday life , yet these people with these mind sets live in this world, at the same time in history as we do
Am presently reading 'Long Shadows, Truth, Lies & History' by Erna Paris--my travelling reading material for the trip down to Brownsville
Did the Durants have bias in their presentation of the materials in their books?? It would be interesting to read some foreign author's 'history of civilization', say from China for instance, ...maybe among the Gutenberg books, with the translating abilities on the internet!!...

isn't the internet a wonderful instrument to have at our use...
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1123 on: October 22, 2010, 02:11:05 PM »
BOOKAD "we all talk about history; but we are really talking about perspective, are we not?"

How true, and how well put!

Do you have friends in Brownsville, or are you going for the birds? Some birds can be seen there that aren't in other parts of the US and Canada.

bookad

  • Posts: 284
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1124 on: October 22, 2010, 09:25:04 PM »
my husband Glenn & I don't really fit into either category, we just want a warm place preferably dog friendly to spend the winter; 2002 we were in a hit and run accident with our truck run off the road by a car coming towards us and ended upside down in a bog; the car took off...we all walked away, Glenn, myself & our two dogs...on going to the hospital that evening it was found Glenn had a soft fracture high cervical vertebrae....it is much easier today for his pain management if we are in a warmer climate...my eyesight has deteriorated and I have a lot of trouble with my vision, but I don't let it interfere with my reading though I am on the waiting list for cataract surgery here in Ontario

....the Brownsville libraries are amazing (except they limit each borrower to 7 books on their card...while in Ontario I have 4 libraries at my disposal with almost no limits to what one can take out)
I have read a number of interesting books around locals in Tennessee--The Widow of the South by R. Hicks--and we visited the home of the widow whose house was occupied as a field hospital for one of the bloodiest battles in the civil war ( the widow later dug up graves and repositioned the men of both sides of the war 0on the grounds around her home so they would have their honour maintained and the site is the largest private cemetery, or one of them in the United States--have read a number of books about the Brownsville area including 'The News from Brownsville' ed by E. Coker, about a soldiers wife in the early to mid 1800's (fascinating)--3 books about the hill country just west of San Antonio, Texas mainly from diaries written by women from Santa Ana time onward....'the Alamo, in American History' by R. Sorrels--a major part being the Mexican experience....'Issac's Storm' by E. Larson, about the Galveston hurricane early 1900's and all these places we have been able to visit and the experience of visiting them after the read really plays with my imagination
I currently *well for the last 3 years, have had on my to read list 'The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers' by Paul Kennedy...and that is why am patiently waiting for the Civilization group to get to the next book as don't quite know how to jump into the 1500's history without a pre...idea of how it came tobe....what I am learning though in the meantime with the group and discussion, agrees with my present philosophy of gaia and the wonderful world we live in; forgoing the need to be for reverence in religion, which as such shams associated with striving for power, upper echelon principles as the be all and end all, leaving the man of the street a victim in his worship to the head honchos, so to speak; the things that have been done in the name of religion--it is shameful

--but to the present discussion;
read the first book, on the orient, with the group, then lost them somehow, but could not relate to the greek, roman eras...since last December when I found you guys again, 3rd time going, able to catch the group briefly, but understand there was a problem with seniorlearn--hopefully to stick with you even though the era concerned now is hard for me to grasp, other than the inter meshing and conflicts of competing and succeeding groups--which could be just another word for history!!
but reading the hypocracy involved in the religions,.... it throws my mind how one could feel good about certain religions with their backgrounds....which of course is why so many left for the Americas, to pursue their religion....and the circle begins anew....
Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1125 on: October 22, 2010, 11:38:56 PM »
Bookad, have you read Durant's 'The story of Philosophy'? It was his first book and I read it my Freshman year. It was written in the 1920's and he also worked on his research for the books to follow in SOC. He spent six years and circled the globe twice to complete his first volume which was published in 1935.

Here is a word from John Little, historian and editor of 'Heroes of History' about Durant's philosophy.

Quote
By what name would you call Durant’s philosophy of life?

Had he ever chosen to give his creed a name, it might well have been called "Perspectivism" -- as that was his council; to see the part in the light of the whole. To see human nature against the backdrop of our actual history and the practical effects and consequences of certain ideas that went with and against the grain of human nature.

Whereas Spinoza, who was Durant’s personal favorite among the philosophers, had sought to see things sub specie eternitatis – that is, "in view of eternity;" Durant believed that such a view was not possible for human beings to envision because human beings are not eternal but temporal beings. Instead, Durant suggested we seek to see things sub specie totius – "in view of the whole;" that is, from as broad a perspective as possible.

That is how I read Durant, 'in view of the whole'. He said he was sympathetic to the worlds great religions including Buddism. But that did not stop him from writing about the events and consequences of their actions when they wrote about the events in their own time. Every 'leader' leaves a record.

Durant provides a large biblography for each book. One can read these books to see where Durant got some of his information. He also traveled the world and could read Latin, French, English, Greek, and taught himself Sanskrit. If one is good at those languages one should not have a problem in reading the original transcripts and drawing ones own conclusions.

I trust Durant as a historian, else I would not have been in this discussion for nine years.

I hope you will read along with us while you are in Brownsville. The books of Durant are in the library or you can just read along with Trevor's excerpts.

Emily 


bookad

  • Posts: 284
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1126 on: October 23, 2010, 11:28:03 AM »
I do try to keep my travelling books down to a reasonable amount but you just suggested Durant's book on philosophy....I have a hard cover edition and I must add it to my packing

..I certainly will be following the group discussion...

since I don't foresee  myself travelling off the continent in my future, it is exciting to experience postings like 'the Sistine chapel' from yourself Emily, remarkable what computers allow us to see while sitting at home, truly amazing! ...as if we were inside looking around, and no group of tourists to obstruct my view, I am 5 feet tall, and usually manage to stand behind taller individuals who are insist of being front and center ...

It was and still is, an exciting day I discovered this reading group. I think after these last few exchanges with you I have lost my reserve and will be able to enter into the discussions; even just to just briefly share in the exchanges....thank you for your kind replies
Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1127 on: October 23, 2010, 12:32:35 PM »
Let us not forget that Ariel was co-author of all the volumes even tho she was not given credit until, I think, the 7 th volume and they both won the Pulitzer Prize for General Non-fiction in 1968............   Jean

Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1128 on: October 29, 2010, 02:09:10 PM »
I didn't realize that The Story of Philosophy was his first book. I have it, but haven't read it yet. I was thinking it was kind of an afterword to The Story of Civilization.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1129 on: October 29, 2010, 11:40:56 PM »
The Story of Philosophy was written in 1926. Durant had been giving lectures at a Protestant church on philosophy to support himself and a publisher came by one night and heard him speak and asked him to write a 'booklet' on each speech and he would publish them. That collection eventually became 'The Story of Philosophy' and made enough money to allow Durant to pursue his dream of writing the story of civilization.

Durant had been collecting data for his first book for some time and after two trips around the world, he finally published the first book in the series SOC in 1935.

Emily

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1130 on: October 30, 2010, 11:25:44 PM »
Durant's SoC Volume V
The Renaissance Pages 399 - 403.

The failure of Sixtus was confirmed by the chaos that ruled Rome after his death. Mobs sacked the papal granaries, broke into the Banks of the Genoese, attacked the palace of Girolamo Rairio. Vatican attendants stripped the Vatican of its furniture. the Noble factions armed themselves; barricades were thrown up in the street; Girolamo was forced to quit his campaign against the Colonna and lead his troops back to the city; the Collona recaptured many of  their citadels. A conclave was hastily assembled in the Vatican and an exchange  of promises and bribes between  Cardinal Borgia  and Cardinal Giuliano della Rovere secured  the election of Giovanni Battista Cibo of Genoa.

He was fifty-two; tall and handsome, kindly and peaceable to the point of complaisant weakness; of moderate intelligence and experience; a contemporary described him as"not wholly ignorant". He had at least one son and daughter, probably more. He was content to be a grandfather, to enjoy domestic affection and ease. He gave Politian two hundred ducats for dedicating to him a translation of Herodotus, but for the rest he hardly bothered his head about the Humanists. He continued leisurely, and quite by proxy, the repair and adornment of Rome. For the most part he left the Patronage of letters and art to magnates and cardinals. In a similar mood of genial laissez-faire he entrusted foreign policy first to Cardinal della Rovere, then to Lorenzo de' Medici. The powerful banker offered his richly dowered daughter Maddalena as a bride for the Pope's son Franceschetto Cibo; Innocent was agreeable, and signed an alliance with Florence ( 1487 ); For five years Italy enjoyed peace.

Like Sixtus IV and most of the rulers of Europe, he replenished his coffers by charging fees for appointments to office; and finding this lucrative, he created new offices to sell. Such practices might have been no worse than selling annuity insurance, had it not been that the incumbents reimbursed themselves not merely by their salaries but by candid venality in their functions. For example, two papal secretaries confessed that in two years they had forged more that fifty papal bulls granting dispensations; the angry Pope had the men hanged and burned for stealing beyond their station ( 1489 ). Every thing in Rome seemed purchasable, from judicial pardons to the papacy itself.

The unreliable Infessura tells of a man who committed incest with his two daughters, then murdered them, and was let off  by paying eight hundred ducats. When Cardinal Borgia was asked  why justice was not done, he is reputed to have answered: "God desires not the death of a sinner, but rather that he should pay and live."

The secularization of the papacy-- its absorption in politics, war, and finance-- had filled the college of cardinals with appointees noted for their ability, their political influence, or their capacity to pay for their hats. Despite his promise to keep the college down to twenty-four members, Innocent added to it eight men  most of whom were eminently unsuited to such a dignity; so the cardinalate was conferred upon the thirteen-year-old Giovanni de' Medici as part of a bargain with Lorenzo.

Many of the cardinals were men of high education, benevolent patrons of literature, music, drama, and art. A few of them were saintly. Many of them were frankly secular. Some of them imitated the Roman nobles, fortified their palaces and retained armed men to protect themselves from the nobles, the Roman mob, and other cardinals.

The disorder at the top reflected and enhanced the moral chaos of Rome.Violence, thievery, rape, bribery, conspiracy, revenge were the order of the day.Each dawn revealed, in the alleys, men who had been killed during the night. Pilgrims and ambassadors were waylaid, were sometimes stripped naked, as they approached the capital of Christendom. Women were attacked in the streets or in their homes. Over five hundred Roman families were condemned for heresy, but were let off with a fine; perhaps the mercenary Curia of Rome was preferable to the mercenary and murderous inquisitors who were now ravaging Spain.

As the end of Innocent's pontificate approached, prophets appeared who proclaimed impending doom; and in Florence the voice of Savonarola was rising to brand the age as that of Antichrist. On September 20, 1492 it was announced that Pope Innocent III was dead. The dubious Infessura is our oldest authority for the report that three boys died from giving too much of their blood in transfusion designed to revive the failing Pope. He was buried in St. Peter's, and Antonio Pollaiuolo covered his sins with a splendid tomb.
[/i]



 




bookad

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1131 on: October 31, 2010, 04:43:11 AM »
Quote
...the election of Giovanni Battista Cibo
....The powerful banker offered his richly dowered daughter Maddalena as a bride for the Pope's son Franceschetto Cibo of Genoa
...disorder at the top reflected and enhanced the moral chaos of Rome.Violence, thievery, rape, bribery, conspiracy, revenge were the order of the day...

hi its Deb here, somewhere between Paducah, Kentucky &  Branson, Missouri....

I probably have missed it...but this is the first time I noticed a mention of marriage with the pope ....or is it just a mention of children; though they gained a prominent place as marriages were formed around the pope's children for the benefit of certain families....I find it interesting that the present Roman Catholic church and its history derived from such a chaotic state of being .....and uprisings from the 'common joe' angry against the papacy!!!!

electing this pope-- sounds like conspiracy to elect a placid, easy going guy who would sit puppet like, and let the others do what they wished

Deb
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1132 on: October 31, 2010, 02:08:03 PM »
Deb, yes there have been other popes with children. Women were disposable then as now as far as the church was concerned. We have been marching through the Pope's for the past five or so years covering 1,500 years of history of the church and its leaders.

Pope Innocent (a misnomer if I ever heard one) has just died and it is now 1492 and Columbus is sailing the ocean blue. Printing has come to the forefront and the lives of the Popes have more scrutiny then than now. The Vatican ruled Rome and the Senate at that time so their actions and deliberations were known by a larger audience. They were political, declaring wars, and privy to the public purse. They had not lost their political power yet and turned inward and more secretive.

We have been reading in the age of Popes as Kings or wanna be kings. They want political power more than leadership of a religion. There is nothing humble about this flock of fleecers.

Emily

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1133 on: October 31, 2010, 02:54:01 PM »
Ahhhhhh, 1492, what an interesting year. I had to become a really mature adult before I realized that there was more happening in that year than Columbus coming to the western hemisphere.......There's the interesting, if not good, Savonola, the Spanish ouster of the Jews, the de Medicis keep rolling along, etc etc ........looking forward to of what Durant has to remind us. (it really can be awkward avoiding those prepositions at the end of sentences about which my 9th grade English teacher admonished me.)..........Jean  

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1134 on: October 31, 2010, 03:00:18 PM »
Durant uses Stefano Infessura and his history of Rome published as "Diary of City of Rome" as a reference but qualifies that reference with the word 'unreliable' which is the tactic the Vatican took when faced with the actions of the Popes during Infessura's lifetime of observation.

It seemed relevant to look into Mr. Infessura and who he was and what he wrote. From Wikipedia........

Stefano Infessura was an Italian historian, lawyer, judge, and Secretary of the Roman Senate. He was in a position to hear everything since the Popes ruled Rome as politicians. He lived and wrote of the events during the reign of three Popes and the beginning of a fourth. His daily record was published as a history of Rome.

Durant seems to have skipped the following excerpt from that history.

Quote
Infessura took a degree of Doctor of Laws and served as a judge, before he came to the University at Rome as professor of Roman law. According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, "Under Sixtus IV, his office was affected by the financial measures of that pope, who frequently withheld the income of the Roman University, applied it to other uses, and reduced the salaries of the professors". That may not provide adequate motivation for Infessura's deep opposition to Sixtus' policies, and for anecdotes that would be certainly scurrilous if they are untrue. He was not the only contemporary Roman who noted Sixtus' predilection for young boys— confirmed by the Venetian ambassador to the Holy See— not utterly unheard of in other ages, which so shocked the Catholic historian of the Papacy, Ludwig Pastor, a hundred years ago.

Perhaps Durant was unaware of Ludwig Pastor's findings that confirmed Infessura's charges since their time frame was in the same era.

Certainly those who worked in the Vatican knew what was happening with the boys, but they did not have access to a printing press. Those who did no work but lived off the work of others had no reason to expose their benefactor. The workers talked and it became common knowledge that Pope Sixtus preferred young boys to young girls who were the preference of his predecessor Pope Innocent who brought some of his children with him to the office.

Of course the Vatican cannot deny the written record of the church selling of offices and other vagrancies, but when it comes to the personal lives of the Popes they cover up what they can, even though it was common knowledge that other popes had done the same thing along with a string of Cardinals and other officials within the church.

Instead of the 'Emperor has no clothes' in this situation the 'Church has no clothes'. Today they are naked before the world and it is not a pretty picture.

Emily




mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1135 on: October 31, 2010, 03:21:27 PM »
Thanks for that additional information, Emily. Historians do not  have access to every piece of info and then have to decide, of what they have, what are they going to include. That was why I told every class that I taught, "based on the information that I have.........such and such is true" and "always ask your question, the answer may be in the material I had to leave out of this presentation." Every year there is more and more history, not just including the last year, but volumes and volumes of new information.

Here is a timeline of events of 1492......the Jews of Sicily  were also having problems and Lorenzo the second was born......it's a year which had enormous consequences for the next 50 years,(Lorenzo),  the next 200+ years(reformation) and centuries to come (the Columbian impact). Those folks living in 1492 had no idea!

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1492

Jean

Fran

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1136 on: November 05, 2010, 01:14:51 PM »
Wow, What interesting posts here!! Could anyone recommend a good book on The History and

Background of the popes. Would appreciate it.  Fran

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1137 on: November 05, 2010, 03:30:54 PM »
Hi, FRAN WELCOME! Pull up a seat. As you see, we are reading Durant's "Story of Civilization." Does anyone know other books to supplement it?

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1138 on: November 06, 2010, 12:28:55 AM »
Welcome Fran. There are books published only about the Popes, but I would not recommend them. The ones I know of are written from the Catholic perspective only.

Durant was raised Catholic and schooled by the Jesuits. His parents wanted him to be a priest. He changed his mind when he began to read philosophy and the humanists. He had empathy for the 'Church', but he was a historian first and foremost. He did include their view and arguments in his writings sometimes, as he did with Infessura.

Of course Durant is writing about the Renaissance in total, not just the Popes. We spent months on all the great artists of that time and the world they created. 

I prefer Durant to the others. Read along with us in the Renaissance and meet Pope Innocent's successor.

Emily

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1139 on: November 07, 2010, 02:55:05 AM »
The SoC
Volume V The Renaissance
The Borgias  Pages 404-405.

The most interesting of the Renaissance popes was born at Xativa, Spain, on January 1, 1431. His parents were cousins, both of the Borjas, a family of some slight nobility. Rodrigo received his education at Xativa, Valencia, and Bologa. When his uncle became a cardinal, and then Pope Calixtus III, a straight path was opened for the young man’s advancement in an ecclesiastical career. Moving to Italy, he respelled his name Borgia, was made a cardinal at twenty-five, and at twenty-six received the fruitful office of vice-chancellor -- head of the entire Curia He performed his duties competently, earned some repute as an administrator, lived abstemiously, and made many friends in either sex. He was not yet-- would not be till his thirty-seventh year-- a priest.

He was so handsome in his youth, so attactive in the grace of his manners, his sensual ardor and cheerful temperament, his persuasive eloquence and gay wit, that women found it hard to resist him. Brought up in the easygoing morality of fifteenth-century Italy, and perceiving that many a cleric, many a priest, allowed himself the pleasure of women, this young Lothario in the purple decided to enjoy all the gifts that God had given him and them.

In 1460 Rodrigo’s first son, Pedro Luis, was born or begotten, and perhaps also his daughter Girolama, who was married in 1482; their mothers are not known. Pedro lived in Spain till 1488, came to Rome in that year, and died soon afterward. In 1464 Rodrigo accompanied Pius II to Ancona, and there contracted some minor sexual disease “because,” said his doctor, “he had not slept alone.”

About 1466 he formed a more permanent attachment with Vanozza de Catenei, then some twenty-four years old. Unfortunately, she was married to Domencio d’Arignano, but Domenico left her in 1476. To Rodrigo ( who had become a priest in 1468 ) Vanozza bore four children: Giovanni (1474), Cesare ( whome we shall call Caesar , in 1476,) Lucrezia (in 1480) and Giofre (in 1481 ). These four were ascribed to Vanozza on her tombstone, and were at one time or another acknowledged by Rodrigo as his own. Such persistent parentage suggests an almost monogamous union, and perhaps Cardinal Bogia, in comparison with other ecclesiastics, may be credited with a certain domestic fidelity and stability. He was a tender and benevolent father; it was a pity that his efforts to advance his children did not always bring glory to the Church.

When Rodrigo set his eye on the papacy he found a tolerant husband for Vanozza, and helped her to prosperity. She was twice widowed, married again, lived in modest retirement, rejoiced in the rise of her children to fame and wealth, mourned her separation from them, earned a reputation for piety, died at seventy-six (1518), and left all her substantial property to the Church.

We should betray a lack of historical sense were we to judge Rodrigo from the moral standpoint of our age--or rather our youth. His contemporaries looked upon his perpetual sexual sins as only cononically mortal, and, in the moral climate of his time, venial, and forgivable.


mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1140 on: November 07, 2010, 12:10:41 PM »
With all this evidence that the clergy, including the popes, have not been celibate, why does the Church continue this policy of unmarried clergy?........thank goodness for our founding fathers forcing the liberal philosophy of separation of church and state on our new country.....Jean 

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1141 on: November 07, 2010, 02:38:31 PM »
Durant's comments at their best: "He was a tender and benevolent father; it was a pity that his efforts to advance his children did not always bring glory to the Church."

Now we get down to the Borgias in all their glory and infamy.

bookad

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1142 on: November 07, 2010, 04:04:13 PM »
Mabel,

I am totally of same thinking,....why would the church make such a big thing out of their priests being married legally, & therefore able to hopefully proudly acknowledge wife &  offspring,... if it was a priest's wish.....

rather that, than molesting, causing horrors in young lives due to being unable to control sexual impulses......why stand so firm on a policy of celibacy, when past and present (even recent) history show that it is very hard policy for their clergymen to maintain

Deb
 
To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wildflower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour.

3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1143 on: November 07, 2010, 05:04:06 PM »
In my observation, and I'm sure for all here, that in matters of sexual dalliance, it " takes two to tango."
This being so, why do we hear only of priests misbehavior? Are we to assume, that in those secret societies, the nunneries, that equally antisocial behavior never occurred ? I'm sure more than a few humans of both sexes, and in all stations of life, have transgressed.
Why do we point the finger so readily at priests alone?
Is it because we expect higher standards from them?  And are we right to demand more from them than others ? ++ Trevor

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1144 on: November 08, 2010, 02:24:51 PM »
YES! When you preach morality and the belief in "sin" and make judgements about other people's behavior and, oh yes, have the "authority" to .......I'm not Catholic, so I'm not sure what the proper word is..........forgive? "sins", I expect you to have better behavior than us poor ordinary folks. i.e. Atty General Spitzer! What a hypocrite - he jails others for prostitution, or being a procurer of prostitutes while procuring himself AND THEN gets a tv show, paying big bucks,  to make commentary about the rest of the world! I will never watch that show, what was CNN thinking?

Also, I have known 2 woman who have had relationships with priests. One was a neieve 19 yr, who had an alcoholic father, who the priest knew about, and he took advantage of her adoration and innocence. He was in a position of "authority" and should have been the mature thinker and enforcer of the boundaries. Tha other woman was older and both parties were responsible for the relationship. I was never in his presence, so can't speak to his hypocrisy, but I have no doubt that he had spoken against the sev'l "sins" that he was committing.......Jean   

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1145 on: November 08, 2010, 10:45:15 PM »
Quote
Trevor

Why do we point the finger so readily at priests alone?
Is it because we expect higher standards from them?  And are we right to demand more from them than others ? ++ Trevor

'We' are not the ones making the rules. The hierarchy of the Church sets the rules and standards for themselves. How should the flock react when the wolf appears in 'sheep's clothing'? I say run for the hills and avoid them all as one would the plague.

I certainly don't understand their thinking on celibacy. The will to live and procreate are the two strongest traits of all living things. Since they all proclaim their god (take your pick) created all living things, then this group must believe their god made a mistake that they need to correct.

I would wager the 'celibate' decision was made by a sexual deviate and pervert. There are abnormalities in all species and I believe all religions were started by the 'abnormals', so the decision on celibacy is not surprising. There have been religious groups that rage against the 'will to live' also, and that creates mass suicides. It is against humanity no matter what excuse they have for the event, be it celibacy or mass suicide.
Destroy our most dominate traits and you destroy humanity.

Emily

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1146 on: November 12, 2010, 09:23:38 PM »
 The Story of Civilzation.
Volume V. The Renaissance
Pages 405 - 406


Even in the generation between the reproof given him by Pius II and Rodrigo’s elevation to the papacy, public opinion had become more lenient toward unobtrusive sexual digressions from clerical celibacy. Pius II himself, besides spawning some love children in his presacerdotal youth, had once advocated the marriage of priests; Sixtus IV had had several children; Innocent VIII had brought his into the Vatican. Some condemned the morals of Rodrigo, but apparently no one mentioned  them when the conclave met to choose a successor to Innocent. Five popes, including the reasonably virtuous Nicholas V, had granted him lucrative benefices through all these  years, had entrusted him with difficult missions and responsible posts, and had apparently taken no notice of his philoprogenitive exuberance.

What men remarked in 1492 was that he had been Vice-chancellor for thirty-five years, had been appointed and reappointed to that office by five successive popes, and had administered the office with conspicuous industry and competence; and that the external magnificence of his palace concealed a remarkable simplicity of private life. He was popular with Romans, having amused them with games; when news reached Rome that Granada had fallen to the Christians, he regaled Rome with a bullfight in Spanish style.

Perhaps the Cardinals assembling in conclave on August 6, 1492 were also interested in his wealth, for in five administrations he had become the richest cardinal -- excepting d’Estouteville-- in the memory of Rome. They relied upon him to make substantial presents to those who should vote for him; and he did not fail them. To Cardinal Sforza he promised the vice chancellorship, several rich benefices, and the Borgia palace in Rome; to Cardinal Orsini the see and ecclesiastical revenues of Cartagena, the towns of Monticelli and Soriano, and the governorship of the Marches; to Cardinal Savelli Civita, Castellana and the bishopric of Majorca, and so on; Infessura described the process as Borgia’s   evangelical distribution of his goods to the poor. It was not an unusual procedure; every candidate had used it for many conclaves past, as every candidate uses it in politics today. Whether money bribes were also used is uncertain. The decisive vote was cast by Cardinal Gherardo, ninety-six years old, and “hardly in possession of his faculties“.

Finally, all the cardinals rushed to the winning side, and made the election of Rodrigo Borgia unanimous ( August 10, 1492). When asked by what name he wished to be called as pope he answered, “By the name of the invincible Alexander.”

It was a pagan beginning for a pagan pontificate.  

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1147 on: November 13, 2010, 02:18:39 PM »
There is a fascinating article on the life of Rodrigo de Borgia - who later became Pope : -

http://www.lifeinitaly.com/heroes-villains/rodrigo-borgia.asp

I love the way Durant uses words in disparagement - - - "philoprogenitive exuberance" - - -  "presacerdotal" - - - and "pagan pontificate".

Where are you Justin when we need you ?

Brian

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1148 on: November 13, 2010, 02:37:33 PM »
That was interesting. What a life. I know Lucretia was supposed to have poisoned people: I assume it was her husbands.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1149 on: November 13, 2010, 09:48:08 PM »
After searching for a portrait of Rodrigo Borgia aka Pope Alexander VI this is the one most available.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/House_of_Borgia

Emily

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1150 on: November 13, 2010, 10:17:08 PM »
Here is the Epitaph to Pope Alexander translated from Latin to English.

Quote
Who sacrificed quiet to hatred, with a warrior heart,
who did not stop at quarrels, struggles and slaughters,
is lying here in the coffin for all people to rejoice,
thy supreme pontiff Alexander, oh, capital Rome.
Thou, prelates of Erebus and Heaven, close thy doors
and prohibit the Soul from entering thy sites.
He would disrupt the peace of Styx and disturb Avernus,
and vanquish the Saints, if he enters the sphere of stars.

They buried him along side the other Popes but soon removed him and placed him in a Spanish church away from St. Peters.

Emily

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1151 on: November 13, 2010, 11:53:15 PM »
This man was well and truly damned - - -

Quote
Such was Alexander VI's unpopularity that the priests of St. Peter's Basilica refused to accept the body for burial until forced to do so by papal staff. Only four prelates attended the Requiem Mass. Alexander's successor on the Throne of St. Peter, Francesco Todeschini-Piccolomini, who assumed the name of Pope Pius III (1503), forbade the saying of a Mass for the repose of Alexander VI's soul, saying, "It is blasphemous to pray for the damned". After a short stay, the body was removed from the crypts of St. Peter's and installed in a less well-known church, the Spanish national church of Santa Maria in Monserrato degli Spagnoli.[15]

- - -  he either was poisoned by his son Cesar Borgia, or possibly died of malaria - - -
either way, he was generally thought to be "the ugliest corpse ever seen".

Brian

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1152 on: November 14, 2010, 02:52:21 PM »
WOW!!

We can't blame him for being ugly (he was pretty ugly in life as well) but clearly he lived up to his appearance.

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1153 on: November 14, 2010, 05:42:56 PM »
Brian, i also smiled at the Durants' vocabulary, that's part of the fun of reading them.

I love the way Durant uses words in disparagement - - - "philoprogenitive exuberance" - - -  "presacerdotal" - - - and "pagan pontificate".

Reading the history of the popes in compact content makes me even more astonished at their behavior and the acceptance of it. I loved this sentence also....." public opinion had become more lenient toward unobtrusive sexual digressions from clerical celibacy." unobtrusive.....digressions? unobtrusive to whom? or what?......i had a general knowledge of the behavior, but whew! How dare the church judge anyone else?....my statement of judgement is not so much on moral grounds, but on the hypocrisy of it all.......jean

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1154 on: November 14, 2010, 06:26:53 PM »
Trevor is right: Justin hasn't posted since September 10. Is anyone in contact with him?

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1155 on: November 15, 2010, 12:14:30 PM »
Here is a site about the Medicis from Yale's Open Course Ware classes, it's a part of their History and Civilization course (Western Civ).


http://www.folksemantic.com/visits/76729

You can see a long list of free college courses at

www.ocwfinder.org

Jean

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1156 on: November 16, 2010, 05:38:39 PM »
I have been in touch with Justin.  He is well, and thanks us for our
concern over his health.  He gives us his reason for not posting recently.

Quote
My available time has been taken over by research for a book I have in the works


I have wished him all our best, and he has said that he will return to SOC "one day",
(probably not too soon - I think.)

Brian

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1157 on: November 16, 2010, 05:54:38 PM »
Thanks for checking, Brian.......jean

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1158 on: November 17, 2010, 01:15:51 PM »
Thanks Brian for checking on Justin. What great news that Justin is writing a book. I hope he will check in occasionally and let us know how he is progressing, and leave a comment on SOC.

Emily

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1159 on: November 17, 2010, 03:04:54 PM »
Great news! Did he tell you what his book is about?