Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 371988 times)

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1480 on: September 21, 2011, 08:01:34 PM »

"I want to know what were the steps by which
man passed from barbarism to civilization (Voltaire)"

   



What are our origins?
Where are we now?
Where are we headed?
Share your thoughts with us!
   Volume Five (The Renaissance)
       
"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "
 
"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "
       
"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."
       
"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."




In this volume the  term "Renaissance" refers only to Italy. Will Durant studies the growth of industry, the rise of banking families like the Medici, the conflicts of labor and capital and considers the reasons why Italy was the first nation, and Florence the first city in Italy, to feel the awakening of the modern mind. He follows the cultural flowering from Florence to Milan, Mantua, Ferrata, Verona and Venice, Padua and Parma, Bologna, Rimini, Urbino, Perugia, Siena, and Naples. 

In each city of Italy we witness a colorful pageant of princes, queeens, dukes, or doges -- of poets, historians, scientists, and philosophers -- of painters, sculptors, engravers, illuminators, potters, and architects -- of industry, education, manners, morals, crime, and dress -- of women and love and marriage -- of epidemics, famines, earthquakes, and death.

Dr. Durant draws vivid vignettes -- of Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cosimo de' Medici, Fra Angelico, Donatello, Beatrice and Isabella d'Este, Leonardo da Vinci, Piero della Francesca, Signorelli, Perugino, Giovanni Bellini, Giorgione, Aldus Manutius, Correggio, Alexander VI, Caesar and Lucrezia Borgia, Julius II, Leo X, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

The Renaissance, by recalling classic culture, ended the thousand year rule of the Oriental mind in Europe.


This volume, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

SeniorLearn Contact: JoanK & Discussion Facilitator: Trevor
 


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


and so it goes........forever and ever, amen!

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1481 on: September 21, 2011, 10:18:05 PM »
Since Brantome was given several benefices and had no interest in church duties, I wanted the Catholic definition of what a 'benefice' was to them. An excerpt from Wiki......

Quote
[edit] Catholic Church

In ancient Rome a benefice was a gift of land (precaria) for life as a reward for services rendered, originally, to the state. The word comes from the Latin noun beneficium, meaning "benefit". The expanded practice continued through the Middle Ages within the European feudal system.

This same customary method became adopted by the Christian Church

The church's revenue streams came from, amongst other things, rents and profits arising from assets gifted to the church, its endowment, given by believers, be they monarch, lord of the manor or vassal, and later to a much smaller extent certain tithes calculated on the sale of the product of the people's personal labour such as cloth or shoes and the people's profits from specific forms of, also God-given, natural increase such as crops and in livestock.

Initially these grants, then grants of land, were granted for life but the land was not alienated from the bishoprics. However the council of Lyons of 566 annexed these grants to the churches. By the time of the council of Mainz of 813 these grants were known as beneficia.

 
Cardinal Alessandro Farnese, grandson and cardinal-nephew of Pope Paul III, held sixty-four benefices simultaneously.Holding a benefice did not necessarily imply a cure of souls but each benefice had a number of spiritual duties, attached to it.

The benefice system was open to abuse. Worldly prelates occasionally held multiple major benefices.

Forget the 'worldly prelates', many of those we have read about in these chapters who received large grants of land and property had no intention or desire to serve in the church.

Brantome was one of those. 

Emily

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1482 on: September 22, 2011, 11:01:58 AM »
Renaissance Italy is about to feel the ire of Catholic Europe during the 1500's.

Today the Catholic Pope Benedict arrives in Germany for a visit, and is met by protests. His visit to Spain recently is being sharply criticized there for its cost.

An excerpt from the NYT on the Pope's visit to Germany.....

Quote
Critics of Pope Benedict XVI protested on Wednesday.
 
By NICHOLAS KULISH
Published: September 21, 2011

BERLIN — Instead of a pleasant visit to his native land, the trip to Germany this week by Pope Benedict XVI promises to be a journey to one of the front lines in the battle over the future of the Roman Catholic Church.

Once Catholic Europe is becoming more secular by the day, with both Catholics and Protestants officially leaving the church in droves. Those Catholics that remain are making demands on the church to reform (again....again)

IMO, no religion will ever reform, that would end their reason for existence and an admittance that the whole scheme was always a myth.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/22/world/europe/visiting-berlin-pope-benedict-faces-a-combative-homeland.html?_r=1&hp

Emily




mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1483 on: September 22, 2011, 12:41:16 PM »
Ahhhh, but the question before the statement is where did the church get all that land? I'm sure some was willed to it by people hoping to get into heaven, but how much of it was confiscated?

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1484 on: October 03, 2011, 07:47:32 PM »
Durants'  SoC
 Volume V  The Renaissance
Pages 609-613


Recall the situation of Italy in 1494. the city states had grown through the rise of a middle class enriched by the development and management of commerce and industry. They had lost their communal freedom through the inability of semi democratic governments to maintain order amid the feuds of families and the conflicts of classes. Their economy remained local in structure even while their fleets and products reached out to distant ports. They competed with  another more  bitterly than with foreign states; they offered no concerted resistance to the expansion of French, German, and Spanish commerce into regions once dominated by Italy. Though Italy gave birth to the man who rediscovered America, it was Spain that  financed him; trade followed in his wake, gold accompanied his return; the Atlantic nations flourished, and the Mediterranean ceased to be the favoured home of the white man’s economic life. Portugal was sending ships around Africa to India and China, avoiding Muslim hindrances in the Near and Middle East; even the Germans were shipping through the mouths of the Rhine rather than over the Alps to Italy. Countries that had for a century bought Italian woollen products were now making their own; nations that had paid interest to Italian bankers were nursing their own financiers. Tithes, Annates, Peter’s Pence, indulgence payments , and pilgrims coins were now the chief economic contribution of transalpine Europe to Italy; and soon  a third  of Europe would divert that flow. In this generation when the stored up wealth of Italy raised her cities to their supreme brilliance and art, Italy was economically doomed.

She was also politically doomed. While she remained divided into warring economies and states, the development  of a national  economy was compelling and financing, in other European  societies, the transition from feudal principalities to the monarchical state. France unified herself under Louis XI, reducing her barons to courtiers and her burghers to patriots; Spain unified herself by wedding Ferdinand of Aragon to Isabella of Castile, and England unified herself under Henry VII; and while Germany was almost as fragmented as Italy, it acknowledged one king and emperor, and occasionally gave him money and soldiers to make war upon one or another of the Italian states. England, France, Spain, and Germany raised national armies out of their own people, and their aristocracies  provided Cavalry and leadership; the Italian cities had small forces of mercenaries inspired only by plunder, led by purchasable condotterieri, and prejudiced against sustaining mortal injuries. It needed only one engagement to reveal to Europe the defencelessness of Italy.

Half the courts of Europe now seethed with diplomatic intrigue as to which should seize the plum. France claimed the first right, and with reason. Francesco Sforza, took Milan by right of his wife, Bianca. But Charles, Duke of Orleans, claimed Milan, denounced the Sforzas as usurpers, and proclaimed his resolve, when opportunity should offer, to appropriate the Italian principality.  Moreover, said the French, Charles, Duke of Anjou, had received the Kingdom of Naples from Urban IV in 1266, as reward for defending the papacy   against the Hohenstaufen kings;  and in 1482 Sixtus IV, at odds with Naples, invited Louis XI, King of France to come and conquer Naples,  “which,” said the Pope, “belongs to him.” About this time Venice, hard pressed  in war by a league of Italian states, called in desperation to Louis to attack either Naples or Milan, preferably both. Louis was busy unifying France; but his son Charles VIII inherited his claim to Naples, listened to Angevin-Neapolitan exiles at his court, noted that the crown of  Naples was joined to that of Sicily, which carried with it the crown of Jerusalem; He conceived, or was sold, the grandiose idea of capturing Naples and Sicily, getting himself crowned King of Jerusalem, and then leading a crusade against the Turks. Encouraged by half of Italy, Charles prepared to invade. To protect his flanks he ceded Artois and Franche-Comte to Maximilian of Austria, and paid a large sum to Henry VII for renouncing English claims to Brittany.

In March, 1494, he assembled his army at Lyons: 18000 cavalry, 22000 infantry. A fleet was sent to keep Genoa safe for France; on September 8 it recaptured Rapallo from a Neapolitan force that had landed there; and the unrestrained bloodiness of this first encounter shocked an Italy accustomed to reasonable slaughter. In that month, Charles and his army crossed the Alps, and paused at Asti. Lodovico of Milan and Ercole of Ferrara went there to meet him, and Lodovico lent him funds. On November 17 Charles and half his army paraded through Florence; the populace admired the unprecedented cavalcade, grumbled at petty thefts by the soldiery, but noted with relief that they refrained from rape. In December Charles moved on toward Rome.

In a meeting of King and Pope, Charles behaved with moderation: he asked only a free passage through Latium for his army, the custody of the papal prisoner Djem ( who might be used as a pretender and ally in a campaign against the Turks ), and Caesar Borgia’s company as a hostage.  Alexander agreed; the army marched south (January 25 1495 ), Borgia soon escaped, and Alexander was free to reform the lines of his diplomacy. On February 22 Charles entered Naples in unresisted triumph and acclaimed by the cheers of the populace. He showed his appreciation by reducing taxes and pardoning those who had opposed his coming; and at the request of the barons who ruled the hinterland he recognized the institution of slavery. Thinking himself secure, he relaxed to enjoy the climate and scenery. Naples so charmed him that he forgot about Jerusalem and his crusade.

While he dallied in Naples, and his army enjoyed the women of the streets and the stews and caught or spread the “French disease,” trouble was organising behind him. The occupying army added insult to injury by their open contempt of the Italian people; in a few months the French had worn out their welcome, and earned a hatred that waited in fierce patience for a chance to expel the invaders. On may 21 Charles left Naples in charge of his cousin the count of Montpensier, and led half his army northward. At Fornova, on the river Taro, his 10,000 troops found their way blocked by an allied army of 40,000. There on July 5 1495, came the first real test of French  vs Italian arms and tactics. The battle was indecisive; both sides claimed victory; the French lost their baggage train but remained victors of the field. During the night they marched on to Asti, where Louis, third Duke of Orleans, waited with reinforcements. In October Charles, with damaged repute but a whole skin, was back in France.

The territorial results of the invasion were slight, the indirect results were endless. It proved the superiority of a national army to mercenary troops. The Swiss mercenaries were a temporary exception; armed with Pikes eighteen feet long they formed a solid barrier to advancing cavalry. But soon the invincibility of this revived Macedonian phalanx would be ended by improved artillery. In the Middle Ages  the arts of defence had outrun the means of attack, and had discouraged war; now attack was gaining on defence, and war became bloodier. The Swiss mercenaries learned in this year of war how fertile were the plains of Lombardy; they would hereafter invade them repeatedly. The French learned that Italy was divided into fragments that awaited a conqueror. Charles lost himself in armours, and almost ceased to think of Naples, but his cousin and heir was of sterner stuff. Louis XII would try again.

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1485 on: October 04, 2011, 02:04:53 PM »
A question i've tho't of often thru my study of history........how do you feed 40,000 soldiers on the road? Even to have them eat "off the land" seems an impossibility.

As to "civilization" in others parts of world, i am, coincidentally, listening to "1491," a book that focuses on Native Americans before the coming of the Europeans, naturally. The first part of the book talks a lot about the clash of the Spainards and the NA's, the battles, the conquests, but also on the huge communities of NA's in Mexico and central and south America. mexico city being the largest city in the world by far, having many more paved streets than London and they were swept clean everyday, even tho they didn't have the urine and manure of horses that European cities had in their streets that didn't get swept.

The second part of the book focuses on how the NA's got here, when they came, and how the various theories evolved. The third part which i'm listening to now speaks to the great variety of vegatables they had cultivated and their importance to sustaining these great numbers of people and the impact on the eastern hemisphere countries when they were taken back there.

The author has a new book out, "1493". I wonder what it focuses on because he has talked about the impact of European diseases and on the nutritional foods going to the east..........he spoke on booktv this weekend, but i missed it. I will go online and watch the interview. Does Durant write about Native American civilization in any if his volumes?

Jean

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1486 on: October 04, 2011, 03:49:00 PM »
So there were two things going on here. First, the countries that unified were stronger than the warring city-states (was this the start of "Nationalism"?

And second " the Atlantic nations flourished, and the Mediterranean ceased to be the favoured home of the white man’s economic life." Easy to forget how much of our Western history to this point centers on the Mediteranean, and how this relatively ssmall and easy-to-navagate body of water gave a natural ropute for trade and conquest.

In the centuries ahead, it will be those best exploiting longer routes to the New World and the East who will prosper.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1487 on: October 06, 2011, 10:23:36 PM »
Quote
mabel1015

A question i've tho't of often thru my study of history........how do you feed 40,000 soldiers on the road? Even to have them eat "off the land" seems an impossibility.

Since this is the sesquicentennial of the Civil War, I am reading published diaries of Southern soldiers and sailors. Many of these have been printed for family members only, and reading one usually leads to another. A friend sent me a copy of her gr-gr-grandfather's civil war diary last year. He had three different diaries and she put them together and had them printed and put in the Tennessee archives.

He wrote with such a beautiful script but was a poor speller. He had three other brothers who were soldiers also, one who fought for the Union who lived in Missouri. Three of his brothers died in the war, one who was in his own company. He went to find him when he found out he was shot, and saw that he had been shot in the head. The doctor told him his brother would not survive. They moved them behind the lines and he begged to stay with him till he died, but the answer was no. The next day his only entry said, 'I am so lonely tonight'. His brother died that night as he tells us the next day.

As for feeding the soldiers, many, many days they were hungry. He mentions this in his diary often. They seemed to be always marching, fighting, and looking for food. They once walked over a hundred miles across the mountains with no food. It took them three days.

They could not confiscate food. They had to buy it from the farms. They only fought in the South, and many people were alligned with the cause, but certainly not all.

This is a fascinating story of a German who settled in Virginia and owned several businesses, and the daughter of the only lawyer in a small town in Tennessee who was from New York City. They all headed west and were in the foothills of the Cumberland Mountains by the time the Civil War started with Fourteen children who all lived to adulthood. They sent four sons to fight in the war and only one came back. There were dozens of letters also in the book.

This family did not own slaves. The grandfather said he had all the help he needed with eight sons and six daughters. Everyone had to work. He lived a few days past his 98th birthday and died a very wealthy man, most of it in hundreds of acres of hardwood forest. He owned a tannery, made saddles, bridles, boots, etc. He owned a sawmill and finishing place. His brother opened a general store and got the postal appointment. They started a college to educate their children.

Pretty good for walking into an uninhabited cove without a soul there and building everything from nothing after his first purchase of a few acres.

One story about food......They went to a farm that had a large peach orchard (they were in Georgia) and asked the farmer how much for peaches. He told them they could have all they found on the ground for free. There had been a storm the day before and the ground was covered. He loaded up his buddy with all he could carry and told him to bring back help. They carried off so many peaches that he worked all night making peach pies. He had been wounded at Perryville, Ky. battle, so he was assigned to the rear to help secure food and cook.

The entire company was moving at night to north Ga. and they were attacked by the Yankees. He had to run and hide and leave the wagons with the food and cooking utensils. He watched as they set the wagons on fire, and did not come out until daybreak to assess the damage. It was bad and for several days they were hungry, and most of the horses were dead or gone.

These were not thousands of men, but in the big battles they all arrived at the same point and there were thousands who fought. During battle they did not have time nor place to eat.

Emily



 

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1488 on: October 06, 2011, 11:03:01 PM »
Since Durant is writing about the 'massing of armies' against the city states of Italy, I thought this article in the NYT this week was interesting about the 'boys' who came to fight for both North and South during the Civil War. I'm sure those who gathered to fight against Rome, some were 'boys', not men.

This year to mark the sesquicentennial, the New York Times has produced a series of articles titled 'Disunion', about the Civil War. I have read most of the articles, and even though the 'boys' in the article are Union troops, the Confederates had as many or more who were under age even though it was against the military rules.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/04/the-boys-of-war/

Emily


mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1489 on: October 06, 2011, 11:31:57 PM »
I had always read that Napoleon lost in Russia because he moved beyond his supply lines, but even in western Russia how did he feed his soldiers. I have a feeling that most soldiers thruout history, until WWII and ........(something) rations, somebody help me, and now MREs, .........ate when and where they could find it and not often.

So, i guess we can't be too judgemental when we hear of "those other folks"(Viet Namese, Bosnians, Rwandians) have young boys in their armies.

Emily, thanks for the bits of the diaries, they were interesting.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1490 on: October 07, 2011, 10:00:59 PM »
Thanks Jean. I love reading the diaries of the average soldier or sailor. Many days are boring, but they all give the weather report daily. The severity of the cold in the winter of '64 was heartbreaking, and some of the best writing I've seen in years.

Back to Italy, the Italian city states were all at war with 'each other' on a never ending basis it seems. Venice was asking the French to invade their enemies in Naples or Milan, preferably both. It would be many years before Italy became unified.

Emily

 


JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1491 on: October 08, 2011, 03:01:16 PM »
I have the diary of a relative who fought for the north. Not as hungry as the Southerners, but still often hungry. Ken Burns "Civil War" quoted from many soldier's diaries: among the best parts of that amazing documentart. i've watched it twice: if they rebroadcast it, I'll watch it again.

We are just reading in "The Classics corner" how civil war distroyed the Roman Republic. With all the pain, suffering and bitterness that our Civil War left, our form of government survived.

Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1492 on: October 08, 2011, 03:57:11 PM »
JoanK, Rome underwent a series of Civil and other wars  during the late Republic that spanned a period between 91BC to 30BC. That much fighting probably weakened the Republic considerably, both in manpower and economically. I am sure there were earlier wars and skirmishes. Fortunately, we only underwent one. Also, the spacing of the wars we have been in seem to be farther apart than those of Rome which seemed to be embroiled is some war or other almost constantly during that 60 year period. The moral of that, I think, the US would do well to be careful about how many and how often to get ourselves into wars. The other saving grace for us is that we've managed to avoid any wars, civil or otherwise, on our own soil.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1493 on: October 08, 2011, 08:20:06 PM »
Oh Joan, I wish you lived nearby so we could exchange diaries for a few days. I would like to read your ancestor's account.

The Tennessean had an article last month about finding the diary of a Union soldier in the old archives building. They looked for him in the records and he seems to have died in the 'Battle of Nashville' and is buried in the cemetary there.

The boxes they found came from the U.S. Provost office in Nashville after the Union troops had left. Union troops had occupied Nashville for some time before the battle. They remained after the battle so the diary was in their possession, and they simply left it behind along with other records.

It's a wonder anything survives a bloody war.

Emily

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1494 on: October 09, 2011, 03:41:21 PM »
EMILY: wouldn't that be neat.

FRY: we are reading about just that period of the breakdown of the Republic. Wednesday, we start a new account: Plutarch's account of the life of Antony (Anthony and Cleopatra), the original that Shakespeares play and Liz taylor's movie were based on. The text is on the internet. Come and join us, anyone who hasn't.

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2489.200

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1495 on: October 19, 2011, 09:12:20 PM »
Has anyone heard from Trevor? He has not posted since Oct. 3. I hope nothing is wrong.

Emily

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1496 on: October 19, 2011, 11:22:35 PM »
Durants'  SoC
Volume V  The Renaissance
Pages 613-617


Maximilian, “King of the Romans”—i.e. of the Germans—provided an interlude. He fretted at the thought that his great enemy, France, should be strengthened, and outflank him, by capturing Italy; he had heard how rich and fair and weak that land was, not yet a country but only a peninsula. He, too, had claims on Italy.Moreover, many Italians invited him. Maximilian came, with a handful of troops. His campaign failed through inadequate co-ordination and support, and he returned to Germany only slightly a wiser man.
In 1498 the Duke of Orleans became Louis XII. On the day of his coronation he assumed, among others, the titles of Duke of Milan, King of Naples and Sicily, and Emperor of Jerusalem. Toclear his path he renewed a treaty of peace with England, and concluded  another with Spain. A month later ( March, 1499) he made an agreement with the Swiss cantons to supply him with soldiers in return for an annual subsidy of 20,000 florins. In May he brought Alexander VI into the alliance by giving Caesar Borgia a French bride of royal blood, the duchy of Valentinois, and a pledge of aid in reconquering the Papal States for the Papacy.On October 6 1499 Louis entered Milan in triumph, welcomed by nearly all Italy except Naples.
In July, 1501, a French army under the Scot Stuart d’Aubigny, Caesar Borgia, and Francesco di San Severino marched through Italy to Capua, took and plundered it, and advanced upon Naples. Frederico, abandoned by all, yielded the city to the French in return for a comfortable refuge and annuity in France. When the Spanish army came into contact with the French on the borders between Apulia and Abruzzi, disputes arose over the boundary line between the two thefts; and to Alexander’s relief Spain and France went to war over the exact division of the spoils ( July 1502 ) “ If the Lord had not put discord between France and Spain”, said the Pope to the Venetian ambassador, “where should we be?”
Louis assigned his Neapolitan rights to his relative Germaine de Foix, who was, however, to marry the widowed Ferdinand and bring Naples to him as her dowry. The crowns of Naples and Sicily were added to those already on Ferdinand's insatiable head; and there after, till 1707 the Kingdom of Naples remained an appanage of Spain.
On December 10, 1508, a grand conspiracy was hatched against Venice at C ambrai. The Emperor Maximilian joined the league because Venice had taken from  Imperial control Goriza, Trieste, Pordenone, and Fiume, and because Venice had refuse him and his little army free passage toward Rome for the papal coronation upon which he had set his heart. Louis XII joined  the league because disputes had arisen between France and Venice as to the division of northern Italy. Julius joined the league (1509) because Venice not only refuse to evacuate the Romagna, but made no secret of her ambition to acquire Ferrara. The European powers now planned to absorb all the mainland holdings of Venice. Had the plan succeeded Italy would have ceased to exist. France and Germany would have reached down to the Po, Spain almost up to the Tiber; the Papal States would have been hemmed in helplessly; and the Venetian bulwark against the Turks would have been destroyed. In this crisis no Italian state offered Venice aid; she had provoked almost all of them by her rapacity.
Venice deserved sympathy now only because she stood alone against an overwhelming power, and because her loyal rich and her conscripted poor alike fought with incredible pertinacity to a Pyrrhic victory. The Senate offered to restore Faenza and Rimini to the papacy, but the angry Julius responded with a blast of excommunication, and sent his troops to recapture the Romagna cities while the French advance compelled Venice to concentrate her forces in Lombardy. At Agnadello the French defeated the Venetian's in one of the bloodiest battles of the Renaissance (May 14, 1509); six thousand men died there on that day. Maximilian came down with the largest army—some 36,000 men – yet seen in those parts, and laid siege to Padua. The surrounding peasantry made all the trouble they could for his men; The Paduans fought with a bravery that attested the good government they had enjoyed under Venice. Maximilian, impatient and always pressed for funds, left in disgust. Julius suddenly ordered his troops to withdraw from the siege. Louis XII, having obtained his share of the spoils, disbanded his army.
Julius had by this time realized that the full victory of the League would be a defeat for the papacy, since it would leave the popes at the mercy of northern powers among whom the Reformation was already beginning to find voice. When Venice again offered him all that he could ask, he, " vowing that he would never consent, consented." (1510)



mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1497 on: October 20, 2011, 01:29:33 PM »
European history can be so confusing, between all the different titles one person can hold -still today Prince William is also Duke of something, etc - and the nations/city states/regions whose boundaries are different today and changed quickly at the time, i have to sit with a map to know what is being said and who is being talked about.

E.g. "maximillian, king of the Romans i.e. Germans"

Jean

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1498 on: October 20, 2011, 04:00:47 PM »
We're starting to read about Cicero in Plutarch, if anyone wants to join us.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1499 on: October 22, 2011, 04:11:17 PM »
Trevor, what a convoluted excursion through armies marching, disbanding, retreating, fighting, withdrawing, saying you'll never give in and then consenting.

The entire escapade seems more like a game of double dare. Some don't want to play and others only want to stir up trouble. When civilization has a renaissance as Durant wrote and long wars wind down, men will turn to other pursuits. But not for long.

I see little difference between where we are today than where we were six or seven hundred years ago. Today we are the strong country and are using our military to go after what we want, namely oil and the trillions of dollars it creates.

We want your oil and your money.

Emily

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1500 on: October 22, 2011, 09:35:56 PM »
Emily. I agree with your comments. Even after skipping several paragraphs of detail in SoC, and trying to tie it all up into a coherent whole, I confess I'm still confused by the chaotic mess in Italy during those times. And as you remark, it seems that the Western Powers and the Middle East Nations are today squabbling with themselves and with each other, in much the same way as the Renaissance and Reformation guys did in the 1500's. When will all of us learn to avoid such disasters ?--- Trevor.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1501 on: October 23, 2011, 09:54:18 PM »
Trevor, you did a great job of putting all that together.

We are only nine days away from this forum being ten years old. Robby dated the heading and all his questions to start it off on Nov. 1, 2001. By the morning of the 3rd posters came in and the rest is history.

Do you ever hear from Justin or Robby? It would be nice if they would come by and comment on ten years since they were a big part of this discussion for much of that time.

Brian, where are you? We haven't heard from you in a while. I hope everything is alright.

Emily

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1502 on: October 24, 2011, 01:02:48 PM »
10 years! Unbelievable! What volume number are we in now? I've been here since about 2005, i think. I'll have to check. I'd love to hear from everybody and their comments and reflections...... Jean

JoanK

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  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1503 on: October 24, 2011, 06:03:33 PM »
I've been here about the same length of time as Jean. We were just starting the Romans. I've dug that book out, and am finding it very useful for background in the Plutarch discussion.

Has anyone been here from the beginning?

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1504 on: October 24, 2011, 09:34:33 PM »
Joan, yes Trevor has been here since the beginning. He posted within the first few days.

I posted some time during the first months, don't know the exact date. I did not post daily as did some participants since I was still working. I read though from day one when I had time. I had never participated in an online book discussion, but had been in book clubs since I was a teenager.

Jean, we are in volume five, and are close to the end of that book. Book six will be the 'Reformation'.

Is ten years some sort of record for an online discussion of one authors work?

Emily


3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1505 on: October 24, 2011, 11:37:49 PM »
Durants'  SoC
Volume V  The Renaissance.
Pages 616-619




Julius, having reclaimed what he considered to be the just property of the Church, was free to turn the fury of his spirit against the French who, controlling both Lombardy and Tuscany, were now unpleasant neighbours of the Papal States. At Mirandola he vowed never to shave till he had driven the  French from Italy; so grew the majestic beard of Raphael's portrait. Now the pope gave to Italy, too late, a stirring motto, “Fuori i b arbari !”-- “Out with the Barbarians !” In October 1511, he formed a “League of Holy Union” with Venice and Spain; soon he won to it Switzerland and England.

By the end of January 1512, only one French force remained in Italy, under the command of a dashing and courtly youth of twenty-two years. Resenting inaction, Gaston de Foix lead his army first to the relief of besieged Bologna, then to defeat the Venetians at Isola della Scala, then to retake Brescia, finally to win a brilliant but costly victory at Ravenna ( April 11 1512 ) Nearly 20,000 corpses fertilized that battlefield; and Gaston himself, fighting in the front, received mortal wounds.

Julius repaired with negotiation what had been lost by arms. He persuaded Maximilian to sign a truce with Venice, to join the Union against France, and to recall 4000  German troops that had been part of the French army. On his urging, the Swiss marched down into Lombardy with 20,000 men. The French forces fell back before a converging mass  of Swiss Venetian, and Spanish soldiery, and retreated to the Alps. Out of apparently complete disaster the “Holy Union” had in two months after the battle of Ravenna, through papal diplomacy, driven the French from Italian soil; and Julius was hailed as the liberator of Italy.

But Julius left many problems to his successor. He had not really driven out the foreigners; the Swiss held Milan as a guard for Sforza, the Emperor claimed Vicenza and Verona as his reward, and Ferdinand the Catholic, wiliest bargainer of them all, had consolidated the power of Spain in southern Italy. Only French power seemed finished in Italy. Louis XII sent another army to take Milan, but it was defeated by the Swiss at Novara with the loss of eight thousand Frenchmen (June 6 1513 ) When Louis died (1515) nothing remained of his once extensive Italian empire except a precarious foothold at Genoa.. But Francis I proposed to recapture it all. In August 1515 he led over a new alpine pass 40,000 men -- the  largest army yet seen in these campaigns. the Swiss came out to meet it at Marignano; a furious battle raged for two days. Francis himself fought like a Roland, and was knighted on the spot. The Swiss left 13000 dead on the field; they abandoned Milan, and the city became French again.

The councillors of Leo X, vacillating, asked Machiavelli’s advice. He warned of neutrality between King and Emperor, on the grounds that the papacy would be as helpless before the victor  as   if it had taken part; and he  recommended an entente with France as the lesser of two evils. Leo so ordered and on December 11, 1515, Francis and the Pope met at Bologna to arrange terms of concord. So ended (1516) the wars of the League of Cambrai, in which the partners had changed as in a dance, and the last condition of affairs was essentially as the first, and nothing had been decided except that Italy was to be the battlefield on which the great powers would fight duel after duel for the mastery of Europe.

Italy was devastated, but art and literature continued to flourish, whether by the stimulus of tragic events, or by the impetus of a prosperous past. The worst was yet to come.

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1506 on: October 25, 2011, 12:55:10 PM »
Oh dear! The worst was yet to come........

What a waste of lives and the Reformation is not going to help.

Prosperity is also about to come to some with the goodies from the western hemisphere. If you like this period of time, read "1491", and then "1493". I dont have the author's name in my head. I have read 1491 which talks about the Native Americans, particularly the Mayans, beforethe Europeans arrived and i understand that 1493 is about the effects of the Columbian Exchange. There is an interview w/ the author on cspan. I'll look for the link.

Emily, this has got to be some kind of record for a group to be discussing the same author for ten years!..........think the NYT books section would be interested in the story!?!  ;)

mabel1015j

  • Posts: 3656
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1507 on: October 25, 2011, 12:59:01 PM »
Charles Mann is the author of 1491 and 1493. Here is his interview w/ Terry Gross on NPR....

http://www.npr.org/2011/08/08/138924127/in-1493-columbus-shaped-a-world-to-be

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1508 on: October 27, 2011, 10:48:59 PM »
How long since Rome fell? At least a thousand years, and still the country is broken into cities and states. In the 'every man for himself' attitude that seemed to prevade Italy and kept it from unifying and protecting themselves from continual foreign invasion. This will go on for a few hundred years more.

It seems that 'once broken' it is more difficult to put back together than tear apart. Even in my lifetime there are many that were broken up through war, namely, Korea, Vietnam, Germany, Yugoslavia, India, Russia, etc.

I saw on the news today that of the Seven Billion people in the world, the 'average' man of these billions was a Han Chinese, 28 years old, works in a city, does not own a car. They did a composite drawing and found a man in Queens, N.Y. that fit the discription. He works as the New York correspondent for a Chinese newspaper.

Emily









3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1509 on: November 01, 2011, 12:28:03 AM »
Durant's  SoC
Vol V   The Renaissance
Pages 619-622



                                            Leo and Europe

The conference at Bologna pitted prestige and diplomacy against audacity and power. The handsome young King (Francis) came with victory in his plumes and armies at his back, eager to swallow Italy, merely keeping the Pope as a policeman; against which Leo had nothing but the glamour of his office and the subtlety of a Medici. If Leo thereafter played King against Emperor, and veered from side to side elusively, and simultaneously signed treaties with each against the other, we must not be too righteous about it; he had no other weapons to wield and had the heritage of the Church to protect. The secret agreements made at this meeting have remained secret to this day. The one definite result of the Concordat of 1516 was the repeal of the pragmatic Sanction of Bourges. This Sanction (1438) had asserted the superior authority of a general council over that of the popes, and had given the French king the right to appoint to all major ecclesiastical offices in France. Francis consented to annul the Sanction, provided the royal power of nomination remained; Leo agreed. It might seem a defeat of the Pope; but in so agreeing  Leo was only accepting a custom centuries old in France; and without so planning it, he was marrying Church and State in France in a way that left the French monarchy no fiscal reasons for supporting the Reformation. Meanwhile he ended the long conflict between France and the papacy over the relative power of councils and popes.

The conference concluded by the French leaders begging forgiveness of Leo for having warred against his predecessor. “Holy Father,” said Francis, “you must not be surprised that we were such enemies of Julius II, since he was always the greatest enemy to us; He was in fact a most excellent commander, and would have made a much better general than a pope.” Leo gave all these doughty penitents absolution and benediction, and they ended by almost kissing his feet away.

When Maximilian died (1519) his grandson Charles was put forward to succeed him as head of the Holy Roman Empire. Francis thought himself fitter to be Emperor than the nineteen-year-old King of Spain, and actively sought election. Leo was again in a dangerous position. He would have preferred to support Francis, for he foresaw that  the union of Naples, Spain, Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands under one head would give that ruler such preponderance of territory, wealth, and men as would destroy the balance of power that had hitherto protected the Papal States. And yet the election of Charles over papal opposition would alienate the new emperor precisely when his aid was vitally needed to suppress the Protestant revolt. Leo hesitated too long to make his influence felt; Charles was chosen emperor, and as such Charles I became Charles V. Still playing balance of power, the Pope offered Francis an alliance; when the king in turn hesitated, Leo abruptly  signed an agreement with Charles.  The young Emperor offered almost everything including protection of the Papal States and Florence from any attack.

In September, 1521, the duel was renewed. “My cousin Francis and I,” said the Emperor “are in perfect accord; he wants Milan, and so do I”. The French forces in Italy were led by Odet de Foix, Vicomte de Lautrec; Francis had appointed him at the solicitation of Lautrec’s sister, who was for the moment the Kings mistress. Louise of Savoy, the King’s mother, resented the appointment, and secretly diverted to other uses the money provided for Lautrec’s army by Francis; and the Swiss in that army deserted for lack of pay.  As a strong papal-imperial force approached Milan, the Ghibelline supporters of the Empire there raised a successful revolt of the overtaxed populace.   Lautrec withdrew from the city into Venetian territory, the troops of Charles and Leo took Milan almost bloodlessly; and Leo could die (December 1, 1521 ) in the unction of victory.

                                                                   ADRIAN  VI  1522-1523
His successor was an anomaly in Renaissance Rome: a Pope who was resolved at all costs to be a Christian. Born of lowly folk in Utrecht (1459) Adrian Dedel imbibed piety and scholarship at the University of Louvain. At 34 he was chancellor of that university; at forty-seven he was appointed tutor of the future Charles V., in 1520 he became regent of Castile. Through all this progress he remained modest in everything but certainty, lived simply and pursued heretics with a zeal that endeared him to the people. His repute reached Rome, and Leo made him a cardinal. In the congress that met after Leo’s death his name was put forward as a candidate for the Papacy. On January 2 1522, for the first time since 1378 a non-Italian -- for the first time since 1161 a Teuton -- was chosen pope. How could the Romans forgive such an affront. The populace denounced the cardinals as madmen, as “ betrayers of Christ’s blood “; pamphleteers demanded to know why the Vatican had been “surrendered to German fury.”

Adrian felt himself a prisoner in the Vatican, and pronounced  it fit for the successors of Constantine rather than Peter. He discontinued all further decoration of the Vatican chambers; the followers of Raphael, who had been working there, were dismissed. He was horrified by the looseness of sex and tongue and pen in Rome, and agreed with Lorenzo and Luther that the capital of Christianity was a sink of iniquity. He asked the cardinals to put an end to their luxuries, and to content themselves with a maximum income of 6000 ducats ($75000) a year. “All ecclesiastical Rome,” wrote the Venetian  ambassador, “ is beside itself with terror, seeing what a pope has done in the space of eight days.”

But the eight days were not enogh, nor the brief thirteen months of Adrians active pontificate. Vice hid its face for a while but survived; reforms irked a thousand officials, and met with sullen resistance and the hope  for Adrian’s early death.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1510 on: November 01, 2011, 11:51:27 PM »
Since today is November 1st, we have successfully completed ten years in the online discussion of 'Story of Civilization'.

A big round of applause for Trevor who has been here all ten years. Clap...clap....clap....

While cleaning out files, I found some notes on Will Durant. Between 1911-1913 he spent summers in Europe. He began to collect and write and continued on until his death.

From his first journey in 1911 until today is exactly 'one hundred years'.

Durant circled the globe twice between 1929 and 1935. He went to the places he writes about and read many original documents. He did his homework and never stopped thinking and writing.

As much as I admire Durant, I certainly have a bone to pick with Francis who let Leo lead him into an alliance that doomed France to Catholicism for the next few hundred years.

He also doomed my French ancestors who were driven from their own country by this agreement, and a blue eyed maiden from the Dutch Reformed Church that caught his eye. And as they say the rest is history.

I'm happy they sailed west after a layover in London, and made Manhattan their home.

Emily


3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1511 on: November 03, 2011, 11:35:44 PM »
Durants'  SoC
The Renaissance   Vol  V

pages 623-626





Amid these tribulations he faced as honorably as he could the critical problems of foreign policy. He restored Urbino to Francesco Maria della Rovere, and left Alfonzo undisturbed in Ferrara. Ousted dictators took advantage of the pacific Pope and again seized power in Perugia, Rimini, and other Papal States. Adrian appealed to Charles and  Francis to make peace, or at least accept a truce, and join in repelling the Turks, who were preparing to attack Rhodes. Instead Charles signed with Henry VIII of England the Treaty of Windsor ( June 1522 ), which pledged them to make a concerted assault on France . On  December 21 the Turks took Rhodes, the last Christian stronghold in the Eastern Mediterranean, and it was rumoured that they were planning to land in Apulia and conquer disorganized Italy.

When Turkish spies were captured in Rome the trepidation mounted to a point that recalled the city’s fear of invasion after Hannibal’s victory at Cannae in 216  BC. To quite fill Adrian’s cup of gall, Cardinal Francesco Soderini, his chief minister and confidante, and a principal agent in his negotiations for a European peace, plotted with Francis a French attack on Sicily. When Adrian discovered the plot, and learned that Francis was massing troops on the border of Italy, he abandoned neutrality, and leagued the papacy with Charles V. Then, broken in body and spirit, he fell sick and died( September (14 1523 ) His will left his property to the poor, and his last instructions were that he should be given a quiet and inexpensive funeral.

Rome greeted his death with more joy than if the city had been saved from Capture by the Turks. Some believed he had been poisoned for art’s sake, and a wag attached to the door of the Pope’s physician an inscription “ Liberatori patriae SPQR”--- expressing the gratitude of the “Senate and People of Rome to the Liberator of the Fatherland.” The dead Pontiff was blackened by a hundred satires; he was accused of greed, drunkenness, and the grossest immorality, and every act of his career was transformed into wickedness by malice and ridicule; now the surviving freedom of the “press”  in Rome prepared by its excesses its own unmourned demise. It was a pity that Adrian could not understand the Renaissance; but it was a greater crime and folly that the Renaissance could not tolerate a Christian pope.

                                                                         CLEMENT  VII:
The conclave that met on October1, 1523 fought for seven weeks over the selection of Adrian’s successor, and finally named a man who by universal opinion was the happiest possible choice. Giulio de’ Medici was the illegitimate son of that amiable Giuliano who had fallen a victim to the pazzi conspiracy, and of a mistress, Fioretta, who soon disappeared from history. Loenzo took the boy into his family and had him brought up with his sons. These included Leo, who as  pope, dispensed Giulio from the canonical impediment of  bastardy, made him archbishop of Florence, then a cardinal, then the able administrator of Rome, and the chief minister of his pontificate. Now forty-five, Clement was tall and handsome, rich and learned, well mannered and of moral life, an admirer and patron of literature, learning, music and art. Rome greeted his elevation with joy as the return of Leo’s golden age. Bembo prophesied that Clement VII could be the best and wisest ruler the Church had ever known.

He began most graciously. He distributed among the cardinals all benefices that he had enjoyed, entailing a yearly revenue of 60000 ducats. He won the hearts and dedications of scholars and scribes by drawing them into his service or supporting them with gifts. He dealt out justice justly, gave audience freely, bestowed charity with less than Leonine, but with wiser, generosity, and charmed all by his courtesy to every person and class. No pope ever began so well, or ended more miserably.

The task of steering a safe course between Francis and Charles in a war almost to the death, while the Turks were overrunning Hungary, and one third of Europe was in full revolt against the Church, proved too much for Clements's abilities, as for Leo’s too. The magnificent portrait of Clement in his early pontificate, by Sebastiano del Piombo, is deceptive: he did not show in his actions the hard resolution that there seemed limned in his face; and even in that picture a certain weak weariness shows in the tired eyelids drooping upon sullen eyes. Clement made irresolution a policy. He carried though to an excess, and mistook it as a substitute for action instead of its guide. He could find a hundred reasons for a decision, and a hundred against it; it was as if Buridan’s ass sat on the papal throne. Berni satirized him in bitter lines prophetic of posterity’s judgment:

                                            A papacy composed of compliment,
                                                      Debate, consideration, complaisance,
                                                      Of furthermore, then, but, yes, well, perchance
                                                             Haply, and such like terms inconsequent.....
                                                             Of feet of lead, of tame neutrality........
                                                             To speak tame truth, you shall live to see
                                                              Pope Adrian sainted through the papacy.


 He took as his chief councillors Gianmatteo Giberti who favoured France, and Nikolaus Schonberg who favoured the Empire; He allowed his mind to be torn in two between them, and when he decided for France-- only a few weeks before the French disaster at Pavia-- he brought down upon his head and his city all the wiles and forces of Charles, and all the fury of a half Protestant army unleashed upon Rome.

It was Clement’s excuse that he feared the power of an Emperor holding both Lombardy and Naples; and he hoped by siding with Francis, to secure a French veto on Charles troublesome idea of a general council to adjudicate the affairs of the Church. When Francis came down over the alps with a new army of 26000 French, Italians, Swiss, and Germans, seized Milan, and besieged Pavia, Clement, while giving Charles assurances of loyalty and friendship, secretly signed an alliance with Francis ( December 12 1524 ), brought Florence and Venice into it, and reluctantly gave  triumphant Francis permission to levy troops in the Papal States and to send an army through Papal territory against Naples. Charles never forgave the deception. "I shall go into Italy”, he vowed "and revenge myself on those who have injured me, especially on that poltroon the Pope. Some day, perhaps, Martin Luther will become a man of weight.” At that moment some men thought that Luther would be made pope; and several of the Emperor’s entourage advised him to contest the election of Clement on the ground of illegitimate birth.

Charles sent a German army under Georg von Frundsberg and the Marquis of Pescara to attack the French outside of Pavia. Poor tactics nullified the French artillery, while the hand firearms of the Spanish made a mockery of Swiss pikes; the French army was almost annihilated in one of the most decisive battles of history ( Feb. 24-5, 1525 ) Francis behaved gallantly: while his troops retreated he plunged forward into the enemies ranks, making royal slaughter; his horse was killed under him, but he kept on fighting; at last, thoroughly exhausted, he could resist no more, and was taken prisoner along with several of his captains. From a tent among the victors he wrote to his mother the message so often half quoted: “All is lost save honour -- and my skin, which is safe.” Charles, who at this time was in Spain, ordered him sent as a prisoner to a castle near Madrid.


Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1512 on: November 04, 2011, 08:42:20 AM »
Quote
He could find a hundred reasons for a decision, and a hundred against it
I know that scenario, weighing all the conflicting pros and cons, trying to gather more and more information until you get so tied up in knots you can't make a decision. Sounds like me. Indecision.

Re Buridan’s ass: I looked this up. It's the ultimate case of indecision and a problem of philosophy that I never ran across in philosophy classes. Too bad. I could have done a right good job of a paper on it. When I Googled, I came up with all sorts of interesting articles from free will to computers. Here are some of the links

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Buridan%27s%20Ass%20Phenomenon I like this one. It describes me well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan%27s_ass The ubiquitous Wikipedia, good overview.

http://www.philosophynow.org/issue81/Why_Buridans_Ass_Doesnt_Starve George used to tell the waitress that we would all starve before I made a choice.

JoanK

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  • Posts: 8685
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1513 on: November 04, 2011, 04:31:03 PM »
I like the "Why Buridans Ass doesn't starve". I especially like that it says "no animals were harmed in the making of this article,"

Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1514 on: November 04, 2011, 06:58:49 PM »
 ;D

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1515 on: November 04, 2011, 08:08:58 PM »
Frybabe, thanks for the description of 'Buridans ass'. Perhaps Charles and Francis should have had that problem, and there might have been less war and more peace.

When Pope Clement was called a 'poltroon', I looked it up to be sure I had the right meaning of its use. It means 'an ignoble or total coward' according to the dictionary.

Here is the portrait of Pope Clement mentioned in Durant's piece. He had his portrait done on stone because it lasted longer than canvas.

He wanted to be remembered and liked his portrait so he had no lack of ego. He looks very manly in this portrait and not like a 'poltroon', but looks can be deceiving.

http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=1027&handle=li

Emily

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1516 on: November 05, 2011, 03:11:52 PM »
He certainly doesn't look like one you'd want to go for clemancy!

3kings(Trevor)

  • Posts: 347
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1517 on: November 05, 2011, 10:42:08 PM »
I confess I am one who can not discern either the personality or the likely attitudes of an individual  from their portrait, or appearance. I guess it means that I am unlearned in this regard. In my dealings with others throughout my life, I have often been wrong in thinking that so and so on first meeting, was not to be trusted. ( Or alternately could be .)

To illustrate my point, I would like to tell you a story often related by my wife, that illustrates my argument. She is Polish, and during the WW2. She, then ten years old, and her family were deported by the invading Russians and sent to a Siberian  labour camp. When Germany attacked Russia, the British and exiled Polish Governments negotiated their release. The family, and perhaps some  hundred thousand other deported  Poles, made their way to Uzbekistan, where there was a much warmer climate. There her father was accepted into the Polish army and sent to Iran, leaving Malwina, my wife, and her mother alone in the USSR.

One day in her desperate search for food and lodgings the mother left Malwina alone in a tea house filled with Uzbek men, and a few Russian women. ( Uzbek women were not allowed on the premises.) She was gone a long time, and Malwina began to worry that she might not return. Among the men she noticed a man whose appearance frightened her greatly. He was filthy, dressed in rags, hair and beard unshorn, a terrifying sight to a frightened young child.

Clutching her small bag of belongings in her arms she began to pray ,in Polish, calling upon God's help in her hour of need. To her terror, the unkempt man recognized her polish prayer, and said, in polish, "A Polish child ! Are you a Pole ?" Scared to death, she nodded mutely, and began to cry.  The man drew a piece of moldy bread from his filthy clothing and offered it to Malwina. She refused to take it, hoping he would desist, and leave her alone. But he didn't leave. He persisted in speaking to her, and little by little heard from her how her mother had gone out into the street, looking for food in rubbish tins or anywhere.

Gradually, the man found out where her mother had gone, and telling Malwina to stay where she was, he went out looking for the mother, having gathered as much description as Malwina could provide. He eventually, after much searching found her. She had fainted from exhaustion and lack of food, and was lying on a bench in a small park.

He reunited them, helped them find the local Polish delegate, who provided them with what little help he could spare. So a man whose appearance was enough to scare a frightened child almost witless, turned out to be a knight, if not in shining Armour , still was their Saviour in their desperate hour of need.

Malwina often tells this story, and emphasises that an individual must never be judged on appearances, but rather on actions.
 This has little to do with SoC, I know, but I was just trying to illustrate a point.
 Please excuse .
--- Trevor.


Frybabe

  • Posts: 10032
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1518 on: November 05, 2011, 11:29:35 PM »
That could count as a little miracle, Trevor. Just when you think all is lost, they appear.

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #1519 on: November 06, 2011, 12:39:47 AM »
Trevor, the story of your wife's ordeal is very fitting for this discussion. It is a fine example of 'looks being deceiving'. Since your wife was a child at the time in a room full of strangers, she had a right to be concerned about all of them.

Durant uses portrait descriptions a lot especially in describing the Popes. How much more one could perceive in person.

Just today I was discussing 'new friends' with my grandson (a sophmore in college). I told him that I had a small circle of friends, but a ton of acquaintances. I tried to explain the difference and he said 'he got the message'.

Emily