Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 371796 times)

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #520 on: November 22, 2009, 07:58:01 PM »

"I want to know what were the steps by which
man passed from barbarism to civilization (Voltaire)"

   



What are our origins?
Where are we now?
Where are we headed?
Share your thoughts with us!
   Volume Five (The Renaissance)
       
"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "
 
"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "
       
"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."
       
"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."



SAVONAROLA AND THE REPUBLIC

The Prophet
The Statesman
Literature: The Martyr
Architecture and Sculpture: The Republic and the Medici
Art Under the Revolution

In this volume the  term "Renaissance" refers only to Italy. Will Durant studies the growth of industry, the rise of banking families like the Medici, the conflicts of labor and capital and considers the reasons why Italy was the first nation, and Florence the first city in Italy, to feel the awakening of the modern mind. He follows the cultural flowering from Florence to Milan, Mantua, Ferrata, Verona and Venice, Padua and Parma, Bologna, Rimini, Urbino, Perugia, Siena, and Naples. 

In each city of Italy we witness a colorful pageant of princes, queeens, dukes, or doges -- of poets, historians, scientists, and philosophers -- of painters, sculptors, engravers, illuminators, potters, and architects -- of industry, education, manners, morals, crime, and dress -- of women and love and marriage -- of epidemics, famines, earthquakes, and death.

Dr. Durant draws vivid vignettes -- of Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cosimo de' Medici, Fra Angelico, Donatello, Beatrice and Isabella d'Este, Leonardo da Vinci, Piero della Francesca, Signorelli, Perugino, Giovanni Bellini, Giorgione, Aldus Manutius, Correggio, Alexander VI, Caesar and Lucrezia Borgia, Julius II, Leo X, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

The Renaissance, by recalling classic culture, ended the thousand year rule of the Oriental mind in Europe.


This volume, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Discussion Leader: robby






JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #521 on: November 22, 2009, 08:00:33 PM »
Thanks Justin, that's great.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #522 on: November 22, 2009, 08:20:26 PM »
Thanks, Alf. If Wikipedia can be accepted as a valid source, it looks like the Church put its imprimatur on the African slave trade with Bulls and the label of a Crusade. The Pope made non Christians enemies of Christ just as Islam views non Muslims as enemies of Allah. There is no hope for the infidel.

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #523 on: November 23, 2009, 01:57:46 PM »
Every aspect of this discussion gives explanation as to why many people over the centuries have passed on institutional religion...............the way The Church picks and chooses what parts of their history and teachings they are going to adhere to is quite fascinating, but also horrifying.......................wasn't there a story about Jesus throwing the money changers OUT of the temple? ..............charging for church services in order to keep the institution going? Isn't it really to keep Martin and his cohorts and their power going? Collections? What have they to do w/ being "our brothers' keeper?"

We'll ban slavery of Christians but execute any who will not convert to Christianity?

In the discussion we are coming up on 1492 which is not only a hell of a year - literally - for the Native Americans, but also for the Jews in Spain, all thanks to the Christian Church. ............bah, humbug!...................however it IS important that we know this history, it may  - or perhaps has - come back around........................jean

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #524 on: November 23, 2009, 03:19:00 PM »
Durant writes...........

Believing that Martin had transferred too much Church property that family, he ordered restoration of many parcels, and had Martins former secretary tortured almost to death to elicit information in the matter.

Durant writes of Eugenius IV as a sometime saint. I don't think so. Anyone who orders torture of any living thing could never be a saint in my book.

Emily

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #525 on: November 23, 2009, 04:41:38 PM »
"In the discussion we are coming up on 1492 which is not only a hell of a year - literally - for the Native Americans, but also for the Jews in Spain - - -   Mabel"

- - -  not to mention the jews in Florence !

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Pope+Eugenius+IV+and+Jewish+money-lending+in+Florence:+the+case+of+...-a015674106

Brian.

ALF43

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #526 on: November 23, 2009, 08:15:30 PM »
Mabel-
This is purely biblical and not in 1400 with Eugenius IV.
Matthew 12:   Jesus entered the Temple and began to drive out all the people buying and selling animals for sacrifice.  He knocked over the table of the money changers and the chairs of those selling doves.  He said to them  "The scriptures declare, "my temple will be called a house of prayer, but you have turned it into a den of thieves."
A brother's keeper was any kinsman or of the same tribe.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #527 on: November 24, 2009, 01:12:22 AM »
It's no wonder the priests of the Sanhedrin were angry with Jesus. Animal sacrifice was the essential element of devotion in the days of the Temple. The practice started as a sacrifice of new born children and the priests gradually weaned the faithful away from human sacrifice by allowing animals to be sacrificed.  It was the function of the Hebrew priesthood to slay the beasts selected by the faithful for sacrifice. Breeders existed to produce sacrificial animals and they were stabled within the Temple grounds for sale to the faithful. The priests, if not the high priest, must have taken a little squeeze, from the animal dealers and there must have been a fee for the sacrifice itself and then who ate the slain animal.

 Money for the purchase of animals  came in hard coin from all over the middle east and money changers were needed to convert the various coins to sheckels, the coin of the realm. Without the money changers, there would be no purchases of animals. The breeders were hurt, the merchants were hurt, the priests were hurt, the high priest was hurt, and the people had no way to talk to the God of Abraham and Moses.

Jesus' action can be compared favorably with the action of Popes who excommunicated Kings and whole countries from the practice of their religion. The dead had to be buried without "last rites" and lovers could not marry with the blessing of a priest. That's what happened when Jesus chased out the money changers. When the Sanhedrin charged Jesus with blasphemy they meant this blasphemy.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #528 on: November 24, 2009, 01:13:55 AM »
It's interesting, isn't it,  how important money is to the practice of religion. Martin understood it.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #529 on: November 24, 2009, 02:50:26 PM »
Before we sneer too much, remember that a Church, as well as a set of beliefs is an organization, and can't survive without money. Priests and the many others who work for it have to eat and live. Buildings have to be maintained. Of course, there were tremendous abuses and much more moneywas spent than was needed, but still, SOME money would have been necessary.

As a sociologist, I have no trouble distinguishing between religion, a set of beliefs and practices, and a Church which is a social organization with all the needs, problems and weaknesses of all human organizations.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #530 on: November 25, 2009, 01:07:39 AM »
Brian and Mabel, you two, in my judgment, have hit upon an issue of major significance in the Renaissance. The relationship between Jews and Christians in this period, was one of class discrimination and punishment . The Jews were being paid back for their role in the crucifixion. They were a minority in Europe and they were dominated and persecuted with impunity in most cities. The Holocaust that we experienced in our life time was merely the apex of severe discrimination lasting two millenniums. Christians have committed the most grievous sin possible in this world and in my view they should not escape knowledge of it. Of a lesser degree, perhaps, but equally egregious, is the sin of American whites, particularly southern whites against blacks. We do not live in a perfect world but if we have knowledge of wrongs I think it our duty as fellow humans to right the wrong and to make up for it.

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #531 on: November 25, 2009, 03:51:25 AM »
Yours was an interesting comment, Justin.

 In the time of child sacrifice, I don't see how money could become involved. The parents I suppose, would hand over the child, and that was all.

In the case of animal sacrifice, there were the breeders who provided the beast, at a price. Then there would be the purchase of the carcass, presumably for feasting, and money would change hands along the chain, with the priests no doubt taking a cut at each stage.

I wonder if it was the chance of making a few shekels, in the case of animal sacrifice, that steered the Temple away from child to animal sacrifice?

What people will do, if there is a chance of money gathering.....

But I guess all this was covered in the volume "Our Oriental Heritage". Trevor.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #532 on: November 25, 2009, 06:53:28 AM »
Trevor, ol' friend!!  We have been waiting patiently for you to return to us and are looking forward to your regular words of wisdom.

Robby

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #533 on: November 25, 2009, 11:16:12 PM »
just looking in. I'm off in Kindle land right now reading something called The art of racing in the rain written in the first person, the protagonist a dog who expects to evolve into a human man when he dies.  His philosophy is based on practicing to live up to he requirements of his new existence when it occurs.  It's a good book. I didn't expect that.

I don't have much to add here yet. . .more input needed as to then and now I guess. Comparisons interest me.

claire
thimk

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #534 on: November 26, 2009, 12:40:36 AM »
Trevor: How nice to have you back. You make a good point about the period of Child sacrifice. Money may not have been a factor but there was an economic factor. The child would have served in time to come as a field worker for the family or in a related occupation so they were giving up a source of income as well as a source of pride for pop and a source of love for Mom. The story of Abraham and Isaac occurs during the transition. However, there is evidence of parents making the sacrifice as late as the Babylonian captivity. 

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #535 on: November 26, 2009, 07:58:07 AM »
Claire is interested in comparisons.  Many of us here have read through Durant's volumes on "Our Oriental Heritage," "The Life of Greece," "Caesar and Christ" and "The Age of Faith" and have come across many different conceptions of deity.  The column below speaks of comparing how a deity was seen in past times and how that subject is approachd now.

What are your views?

The Religious Wars
By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF
Just a few years ago, it seemed curious that an omniscient, omnipotent God wouldn’t smite tormentors like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris. They all published best-selling books excoriating religion and practically inviting lightning bolts.

Traditionally, religious wars were fought with swords and sieges; today, they often are fought with books. And in literary circles, these battles have usually been fought at the extremes.

Fundamentalists fired volleys of Left Behind novels, in which Jesus returns to Earth to battle the Anti-Christ (whose day job was secretary general of the United Nations). Meanwhile, devout atheists built mocking Web sites like www.whydoesGodhateamputees.com. That site notes that although believers periodically credit prayer with curing cancer, God never seems to regrow lost limbs. It demands an end to divine discrimination against amputees.

This year is different, with a crop of books that are less combative and more thoughtful. One of these is “The Evolution of God,” by Robert Wright, who explores how religions have changed — improved — over the millennia. He notes that God, as perceived by humans, has mellowed from the capricious warlord sometimes depicted in the Old Testament who periodically orders genocides.

(In 1 Samuel 15:3, the Lord orders a mass slaughter of the Amalekite tribe: “Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them. But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child.” These days, that would earn God an indictment before the International Criminal Court.)

Mr. Wright also argues that monotheism emerged only gradually among Israelites, and that the God familiar to us may have resulted from a merger of a creator god, El, and a warrior god, Yahweh. Mr. Wright also argues that monotheism wasn’t firmly established until after the Babylonian exile, and he says that Moses’s point was that other gods shouldn’t be worshiped, not that they didn’t exist. For example, he notes the troubling references to a “divine council” and “gods” — plural — in Psalm 82.

In another revelation not usually found in Sunday School classes, Mr. Wright cites Biblical evidence that God (both El and Yahweh) had a sex life, rather like the Greek gods, and notes archaeological discoveries indicating that Yahweh may have had a wife, Asherah.

As for Christianity, Mr. Wright argues that it was Saint Paul — more than Jesus, an apocalyptic prophet — who emphasized love and universalism and built Christian faith as it is known today. Saint Paul focused on these elements, he says, partly as a way to broaden the appeal of the church and convert Gentiles.

Mr. Wright detects an evolution toward an image of God as a more beneficient and universal deity, one whose moral compass favors compassion for humans of whatever race or tribe, one who is now firmly in the antigenocide camp. Mr. Wright’s focus is not on whether God exists, but he does suggest that changing perceptions of God reflect a moral direction to history — and that this in turn perhaps reflects some kind of spiritual force.

“To the extent that ‘god’ grows, that is evidence — maybe not massive evidence, but some evidence — of higher purpose,” Mr. Wright says.

Another best-seller this year, Karen Armstrong’s “The Case for God,” likewise doesn’t posit a Grandpa-in-the-Sky; rather, she sees God in terms of an ineffable presence that can be neither proven nor disproven in any rational sense. To Ms. Armstrong, faith belongs to the realm of life’s mysteries, beyond the world of reason, and people on both sides of the “God gap” make the mistake of interpreting religious traditions too literally.

“Over the centuries people in all cultures discovered that by pushing their reasoning powers to the limit, stretching language to the end of its tether, and living as selflessly and compassionately as possible, they experienced a transcendence that enabled them to affirm their suffering with serenity and courage,” Ms. Armstrong writes. Her book suggests that religion is not meant to regrow lost limbs, but that it may help some amputees come to terms with their losses.

Whatever one’s take on God, there’s no doubt that religion remains one of the most powerful forces in the world. Today, millions of people will be giving thanks to Him — or Her or It.

Another new book, “The Faith Instinct,” by my Times colleague Nicholas Wade, suggests a reason for the durability of faith: humans may be programmed for religious belief, because faith conferred evolutionary advantages in primitive times. That doesn’t go to the question of whether God exists, but it suggests that religion in some form may be with us for eons to come.

I’m hoping that the latest crop of books marks an armistice in the religious wars, a move away from both religious intolerance and irreligious intolerance. That would be a sign that perhaps we, along with God, are evolving toward a higher moral order.

Robby

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #536 on: November 26, 2009, 06:42:29 PM »
"Humans may be programmed for religious belief, because faith conferred evolutionary
advantages in primitive times. That doesn’t go to the question of whether God exists, but
it suggests that religion in some form may be with us for eons to come."


We have seen the persecution of the Jews described in SOC and the other bad (and good)
effects resulting from an excessive belief in God -Yahweh - Mahommed - Budda et alia.
Now we may see the shoe on the other foot - - -

"Those who oppose the religious right have been especially concerned about the
influence of the military’s chief rabbi, Brig. Gen. Avichai Rontzki, who is himself a West
Bank settler and who was very active during the war, spending most of it in the company
of the troops in the field.

He took a quotation from a classical Hebrew text and turned it into a slogan during the
war: “He who is merciful to the cruel will end up being cruel to the merciful.”

Immediately after Israel withdrew its settlers and soldiers from Gaza in 2005 and then
from several West Bank settlements, there was a call to disband certain religious
programs in the army because some soldiers in them said they would refuse to obey
future orders to disband settlements. "


I can't remember who said - "Money is the root of all evil" - but I am sure that he (or she)
was well aware that it takes money to propagate any and all religions.

God help us - - - for we sorely need help.

Brian.

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #537 on: November 26, 2009, 10:42:41 PM »
Brian writes :- "Humans may be programmed for religious belief, because faith conferred evolutionary advantages in primitive times."

I don't see how faith conferred evolutionary advantages. There are advantages in physical strength and military prowess in a world of scarcity, but faith ?

Could you expand on the concept, please. ++ Trevor



Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #538 on: November 26, 2009, 11:16:16 PM »
Hi Trevor - - - welcome back to the fold.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A934283
 This sums it up fairly well?

Brian.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #539 on: November 26, 2009, 11:20:53 PM »
 I came a little short in that department too, Trevor. The connection is tenuous, I think. The ancient Egyptians thought that God invented himself, selected his appearance from available substances and then enriched the earth. From the very earliest primeval times Egyptians have worshiped  a Sun God whom they split into rising sun, Noon sun, and setting Sun. Lower Egypt called him Amon. Upper Egypt called him Ra. When Upper and Lower Egypt were combined under one King the sun God was called Amon-Ra. Each stage of the sun bore a different name and Amon-Ra is vested in the Pharoah who bears his name,  Amon, as in Tutankhamon.

 Amon has many names and representations. The scarab is a symbol for Amon. The scarab is a bug that pushes a piece of poop over the landscape. It moves as the sun moves across the sky. The hawk and the falcon are symbols for Amon. The Egyptians have made many gods out of one. But this god is real. He can be seen and felt and his benefits are obvious and tangible. Rational thought can readily lead one to the existence of this god. When Amon goes away, down into the underworld, the world is dark and the earth is unproductive. Man sleeps.

I think the Egyptians had something. If we must be religious lets pick a god that is of some tangible use to humanity as well as one whom we can find with our senses.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #540 on: November 27, 2009, 01:11:27 AM »
From Robby's link.......

Quote
Mr. Wright detects an evolution toward an image of God as a more beneficient and universal deity

NO..NO...NO! That is the same as having the 'flat earth' and the 'four corners' crowd writing our science books. Neither he nor anyone else can 'rewrite' what has already been written and declare it to be a 'new' version. The Jews, Christians, and Muslims are stuck with what they have. Rewriting is unacceptable, so is his fantasy of a different tune to the same song.

One either believes the 'god' these groups created, or they don't, and having them 'repolished' to suit someone's fantasy is propaganda. They are what they are, and all the words of all the languages in the world will not change that fact.

Dawkins and Sam Harris have facts in their books, while Wright and Kristoff spout blatant propaganda that oozes out of their words and puddle in a pool of gibberish.

Emily

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #541 on: November 27, 2009, 07:48:23 AM »
Brian:

This is a phrase which is often misquoted.  The actual phrase from 1 Timothy 6:10 in the King James Version of the Bible is: The love of money is the root of all evil.  A HUGE difference.

Robby

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #542 on: November 27, 2009, 12:46:40 PM »
Robby - - - this time, deliberately misquoted.  Who has money (power) and does not love it?  Even the churches love it, and especially the religious fanatics love it.

Emily - - - facts are only facts at the present time.  As time changes things - facts change.  This is one of the main reasons that churches are called to task - they are too slow to change with the times.  Evolution of religion?

Brian.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #543 on: November 27, 2009, 05:02:54 PM »
I know that fear is a very natural response to danger and that it is accompanied by an adrenalin rush that seems to be involuntary. I don't know much about these things but I suspect a fear response may be hardwired. Fear of the unknown, of climate change, of fire and flood, of events above and beyond our power to control can make us very uncomfortable. Assurance that someone is in control of such cataclysmic natural events and that he/she or it is  susceptible to pleadings for relief, is a desirable alternative thus making people vulnerable to a shaman who is able to improve his well being by offering such relief to others. 

These conditions have been around since the dawn of man and will probably continue. From time to time the shaman will change his message but that message can never be hardwired. A God or supernatural being is just one of the shaman's messages.  Tangible talismen work equally well and they make a salable commodity.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #544 on: November 27, 2009, 09:26:56 PM »
The article is interesting. But it rests on a premise that you may or may not agree with "Religious faith is a phenomenon derived from biological processes that occur in the brain". The author acts as if he is going to prove that, but in fact, just restates it in various ways.

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #545 on: November 28, 2009, 02:04:57 AM »
I tend toward the first paragraph of Karen Armstrong's statement

she sees God in terms of an ineffable presence that can be neither proven nor disproven in any rational sense. The difference between us is that she calls God a "presence" as tho she is sure it is there (my belief is that if there is such a supreme being it certainly would have no gender) I agree w/ the rest of the sentence "can be neither proven nor disproven," so i guess i am a natural agnostic.

From the second article on "evolutionary religious genetics": Frankl's experience is eloquent, but there are countless records of individuals going through extreme experiences where survival was marginal, who say that it was their faith or their vision of the future that sustained them.

My thinking as i read that "do they mean 'it was their (religious) faith' or their faith in the future?" That is not at all clear in the writing of that sentence. I read Frankl in the 70's along w/ everyone else  ;) and that was a long time ago, so i don't remember it clearly, but I do know that he was a devoutly religious man. The statement in this article implies that he stayed alive to be able to tell people about it. My perception of that is that it has nothing to do w/ religious faith. That could also be true of some of the people in the study. If you feel as tho you have something to live for, that you have a vision of your future, a plan for the next 20yrs, perhaps that psychology keeps you alive longer, helps you survive heart surgery, etc. It's possible to have that vision w/ no reliance on religion.

The quirky link given in the first article about god and missing limbs is an exageration of a tho't that i have every time i hear people say praying to god kept them from dying - or some other disaster. Does that mean that if you or your family mbr had died or experienced the disaster that god was to blame for that also. I've never gotten a satisfactory answer from any religious person on that. Any negativity association w/ religion is usually dismissed by religious people as the fault of the "humans" involved in the religious organization. It is irrational to me.

Even so, i am not disliking of people of faith, there have been times in my life when i wished i could have such faith........................I am just not convinced, i.e. I can't take it "on faith." ....................jean

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #546 on: November 28, 2009, 09:18:02 PM »
Quote
Brian

Emily - - - facts are only facts at the present time.  As time changes things - facts change.  This is one of the main reasons that churches are called to task - they are too slow to change with the times.  Evolution of religion?

The three faiths of Jews, Christians, and Muslims can never evolve at least according to them. They have all written, 'This is it' in stone. All three have their 'books' and nothing can be added or taken away, that is the basis of all three religions.

People can comment all they please, but it does not change one word in their 'books'. They have all 'closed' the book on any present or future changes.

All three of these religions have had people claiming to be 'prophets' and getting converts and running amok, but nothing has changed since they all shut down the printing presses. No matter how many splinter groups they form, they cannot get rid of the orthodox true believer, kill them all and a thousand will rise up to replace them.

The pull of the occult world of the supernatural is too strong for too many people to have any hope for evolution of the masses. One either believes in the supernatural (gods) or they don't, it is as simple as that for me.



Emily

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #547 on: November 28, 2009, 09:50:11 PM »
I have read all the comments and they are thoughtful and interesting. How nice to have the pleasure of such company.

Sometime early in this discussion, Robby posted the names of some of the gods we had read about in the SOC books. I had from a very early age began to list the gods I had read about or heard about in a notebook. The list grew as I did, and soon became three notebooks full, with a short description of their creation. I stopped some time ago, and my daughter has the books now. I still make a mental note however each time a new one appears, or in this case 'eight million'. This was in a recent edition of Smithsonian magazine.

Quote
"A traditional gateway, or Toril marks the threshold to the Shinto shrine, Izumo-Taisha, where all eight million spirit gods are believed to convene in October. Pilgrims write prayers on wooden plaques, posted for the spirits to read"

Emily


Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #548 on: November 29, 2009, 02:55:41 AM »
I know it's fashionable to think of the three Abrahamic religions as cast in stone but  there may be some degree of freedom in the non-core elements of some of them. Consider the Qu'ran for example. Conservative litteralists seem to adhere to the written word, but so much violence is commanded by various suras that peaceful Muslims must be ignoring parts of the text. If the text is cast in stone, peaceful Muslims are in error, they are ignoring the advice of the book. Similarly, peaceful Christians must ignore the advice of the vengeful God in the Old Testament. The Jews have different story. The Mishna, I think, is a record of all the challenges that have been offered to the Torah and the Hebrew texts. The conservative Hasidim follow the Talmud and contribute criticism and so the core element of Judaism is always subject to commentary. 

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #549 on: November 29, 2009, 04:05:17 PM »
The majority of the delegates to the Council of Basel were French.

 They aimed, as the bishop of Tours frankly said, “either to wrest the Apostolic See from the Italians, or so to despoil it that it will not matter where it abides.”  The Council therefore assumed one after another the prerogatives of the papacy.  It issued indulgences, granted dispensations, appointed to benefices, and required that annates should be paid to itself and not to the pope.

 Eugenius again ordered its dissolution.  It countered by deposing him and naming Amadeus VIII of Savoy as Antipope Felix V.  The Schism was renewed.  To complete the apparent defeat of Eugenius, Charles VII of France convened at Bourges an assembly of French prelates, princes, and lawyers, which proclaimed the supremacy of councils over popes, and issued the Pragmatic Sanction of Bourges.

 Ecclesistical offices were henceforth to be filled through election by the local chapter or clergy, but the king might make “recommendations.”  Appeals to the Papal Curia were forbidden except after exhausting all judicial possibilities in France.  The collection of annates by the pope was prohibited.  This Sanction in effect established an independent Gallican Church and made the king its master.

 A year later a diet at Mainz adopted measures for a similar national church in Germany.  The Bohemian Church had separated itself from the papacy in the Hussite revolt.  The archbishop of Prague called the pope “the Beast of the Apocalypse.”  The whole edifice of the Roman Church seemed shattered beyond repair,

 The nationalistic Reformation seemed established a century before Luther.

Speaking of being cast in stone, what do you folks think about all the change here?

Robby

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #550 on: November 29, 2009, 08:19:49 PM »
I wonder what the average person made of all this.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #551 on: November 30, 2009, 01:38:54 AM »
It is theology that is cast in stone. The changes we are witnessing are those of administration. Traditional institutions were subject to unusual pressures in the fifteenth century. Nationalism appeared in Europe. French, Spanish and English courts engaged in a power struggle with an Italian papacy for the moneys collected  by the Pope from all over the world. Fees for service, for indulgences, for clerical  office, for burial, for marriage, for Penance, for last rites, etc . all added up to a considerable sum every year. It wasn't long before local royalty realized that there was a way for that money to remain at home instead of being sent to Rome. Clearly, money was at the heart of the dismemberment of the Roman papacy. Once the main cause was in place the rest was just a question of "how to." The councils were,  quite simply, an available tool

3kings(Trevor)

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #552 on: November 30, 2009, 06:23:34 PM »
Well said Justin.We have learned repeatedly in our study of these volumes, that many of the "great" changes in politics or religion have been only cosmetic. One group wresting control from another, in pursuit of monetary gain.

It has always interested me that the successful usurping group succeeds usually when it manages to convince the populace that it is the morally superior group. If a group convinces the people that it is on the side of the angels, it is home and hosed. ++ Trevor

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #553 on: November 30, 2009, 08:44:24 PM »
From time to time throughout these discussioins I have inserted an article which did not relate to the section of the volume being read (in this case Renaissance.)  I do this because many of us here have been together since the first volume "Our Oriental Heritage."  Following is an article in today's NY Times which might pull you away for a moment from the topic at hand. 

A Lost European Culture, Pulled From Obscurity
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Before the glory that was Greece and Rome, even before the first cities of Mesopotamia or temples along the Nile, there lived in the Lower Danube Valley and the Balkan foothills people who were ahead of their time in art, technology and long-distance trade.

For 1,500 years, starting earlier than 5000 B.C., they farmed and built sizable towns, a few with as many as 2,000 dwellings. They mastered large-scale copper smelting, the new technology of the age. Their graves held an impressive array of exquisite headdresses and necklaces and, in one cemetery, the earliest major assemblage of gold artifacts to be found anywhere in the world.

The striking designs of their pottery speak of the refinement of the culture’s visual language. Until recent discoveries, the most intriguing artifacts were the ubiquitous terracotta “goddess” figurines, originally interpreted as evidence of the spiritual and political power of women in society.

New research, archaeologists and historians say, has broadened understanding of this long overlooked culture, which seemed to have approached the threshold of “civilization” status. Writing had yet to be invented, and so no one knows what the people called themselves. To some scholars, the people and the region are simply Old Europe.

The little-known culture is being rescued from obscurity in an exhibition, “The Lost World of Old Europe: the Danube Valley, 5000-3500 B.C.,” which opened last month at the Institute for the Study of the Ancient World at New York University. More than 250 artifacts from museums in Bulgaria, Moldova and Romania are on display for the first time in the United States. The show will run through April 25.

At its peak, around 4500 B.C., said David W. Anthony, the exhibition’s guest curator, “Old Europe was among the most sophisticated and technologically advanced places in the world” and was developing “many of the political, technological and ideological signs of civilization.”

Dr. Anthony is a professor of anthropology at Hartwick College in Oneonta, N.Y., and author of “The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.” Historians suggest that the arrival in southeastern Europe of people from the steppes may have contributed to the collapse of the Old Europe culture by 3500 B.C.

At the exhibition preview, Roger S. Bagnall, director of the institute, confessed that until now “a great many archaeologists had not heard of these Old Europe cultures.” Admiring the colorful ceramics, Dr. Bagnall, a specialist in Egyptian archaeology, remarked that at the time “Egyptians were certainly not making pottery like this.”

A show catalog, published by Princeton University Press, is the first compendium in English of research on Old Europe discoveries. The book, edited by Dr. Anthony, with Jennifer Y. Chi, the institute’s associate director for exhibitions, includes essays by experts from Britain, France, Germany, the United States and the countries where the culture existed.

Dr. Chi said the exhibition reflected the institute’s interest in studying the relationships of well-known cultures and the “underappreciated ones.”

Although excavations over the last century uncovered traces of ancient settlements and the goddess figurines, it was not until local archaeologists in 1972 discovered a large fifth-millennium B.C. cemetery at Varna, Bulgaria, that they began to suspect these were not poor people living in unstructured egalitarian societies. Even then, confined in cold war isolation behind the Iron Curtain, Bulgarians and Romanians were unable to spread their knowledge to the West.

The story now emerging is of pioneer farmers after about 6200 B.C. moving north into Old Europe from Greece and Macedonia, bringing wheat and barley seeds and domesticated cattle and sheep. They established colonies along the Black Sea and in the river plains and hills, and these evolved into related but somewhat distinct cultures, archaeologists have learned. The settlements maintained close contact through networks of trade in copper and gold and also shared patterns of ceramics.

The Spondylus shell from the Aegean Sea was a special item of trade. Perhaps the shells, used in pendants and bracelets, were symbols of their Aegean ancestors. Other scholars view such long-distance acquisitions as being motivated in part by ideology in which goods are not commodities in the modern sense but rather “valuables,” symbols of status and recognition.

Noting the diffusion of these shells at this time, Michel Louis Seferiades, an anthropologist at the National Center for Scientific Research in France, suspects “the objects were part of a halo of mysteries, an ensemble of beliefs and myths.”

In any event, Dr. Seferiades wrote in the exhibition catalog that the prevalence of the shells suggested the culture had links to “a network of access routes and a social framework of elaborate exchange systems — including bartering, gift exchange and reciprocity.”

Over a wide area of what is now Bulgaria and Romania, the people settled into villages of single- and multiroom houses crowded inside palisades. The houses, some with two stories, were framed in wood with clay-plaster walls and beaten-earth floors. For some reason, the people liked making fired clay models of multilevel dwellings, examples of which are exhibited.

A few towns of the Cucuteni people, a later and apparently robust culture in the north of Old Europe, grew to more than 800 acres, which archaeologists consider larger than any other known human settlements at the time. But excavations have yet to turn up definitive evidence of palaces, temples or large civic buildings. Archaeologists concluded that rituals of belief seemed to be practiced in the homes, where cultic artifacts have been found.

The household pottery decorated in diverse, complex styles suggested the practice of elaborate at-home dining rituals. Huge serving bowls on stands were typical of the culture’s “socializing of food presentation,” Dr. Chi said.

At first, the absence of elite architecture led scholars to assume that Old Europe had little or no hierarchical power structure. This was dispelled by the graves in the Varna cemetery. For two decades after 1972, archaeologists found 310 graves dated to about 4500 B.C. Dr. Anthony said this was “the best evidence for the existence of a clearly distinct upper social and political rank.”

Vladimir Slavchev, a curator at the Varna Regional Museum of History, said the “richness and variety of the Varna grave gifts was a surprise,” even to the Bulgarian archaeologist Ivan Ivanov, who directed the discoveries. “Varna is the oldest cemetery yet found where humans were buried with golden ornaments,” Dr. Slavchev said.

More than 3,000 pieces of gold were found in 62 of the graves, along with copper weapons and tools, and ornaments, necklaces and bracelets of the prized Aegean shells. “The concentration of imported prestige objects in a distinct minority of graves suggest that institutionalized higher ranks did exist,” exhibition curators noted in a text panel accompanying the Varna gold.

Yet it is puzzling that the elite seemed not to indulge in private lives of excess. “The people who donned gold costumes for public events while they were alive,” Dr. Anthony wrote, “went home to fairly ordinary houses.”

Copper, not gold, may have been the main source of Old Europe’s economic success, Dr. Anthony said. As copper smelting developed about 5400 B.C., the Old Europe cultures tapped abundant ores in Bulgaria and what is now Serbia and learned the high-heat technique of extracting pure metallic copper.

Smelted copper, cast as axes, hammered into knife blades and coiled in bracelets, became valuable exports. Old Europe copper pieces have been found in graves along the Volga River, 1,200 miles east of Bulgaria. Archaeologists have recovered more than five tons of pieces from Old Europe sites.

An entire gallery is devoted to the figurines, the more familiar and provocative of the culture’s treasures. They have been found in virtually every Old Europe culture and in several contexts: in graves, house shrines and other possibly “religious spaces.”

One of the best known is the fired clay figure of a seated man, his shoulders bent and hands to his face in apparent contemplation. Called the “Thinker,” the piece and a comparable female figurine were found in a cemetery of the Hamangia culture, in Romania. Were they thinking, or mourning?

Many of the figurines represent women in stylized abstraction, with truncated or elongated bodies and heaping breasts and expansive hips. The explicit sexuality of these figurines invites interpretations relating to earthly and human fertility.

An arresting set of 21 small female figurines, seated in a circle, was found at a pre-Cucuteni village site in northeastern Romania. “It is not difficult to imagine,” said Douglass W. Bailey of San Francisco State University, the Old Europe people “arranging sets of seated figurines into one or several groups of miniature activities, perhaps with the smaller figurines at the feet or even on the laps of the larger, seated ones.”

Others imagined the figurines as the “Council of Goddesses.” In her influential books three decades ago, Marija Gimbutas, an anthropologist at the University of California, Los Angeles, offered these and other so-called Venus figurines as representatives of divinities in cults to a Mother Goddess that reigned in prehistoric Europe.

Although the late Dr. Gimbutas still has an ardent following, many scholars hew to more conservative, nondivine explanations. The power of the objects, Dr. Bailey said, was not in any specific reference to the divine, but in “a shared understanding of group identity.”

As Dr. Bailey wrote in the exhibition catalog, the figurines should perhaps be defined only in terms of their actual appearance: miniature, representational depictions of the human form. He thus “assumed (as is justified by our knowledge of human evolution) that the ability to make, use and understand symbolic objects such as figurines is an ability that is shared by all modern humans and thus is a capability that connects you, me, Neolithic men, women and children, and the Paleolithic painters in caves.”

Or else the “Thinker,” for instance, is the image of you, me, the archaeologists and historians confronted and perplexed by a “lost” culture in southeastern Europe that had quite a go with life back before a single word was written or a wheel turned.




Robby

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #554 on: November 30, 2009, 09:38:39 PM »
That is fascinating. If you go into the NYT online, there is a link to photos of some of the artifacts found. It is well worth looking at. Here is the link (don't know if you have to be a subscriber for it to work).

http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2009/11/25/science/112409_ARCH_2.html

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #555 on: November 30, 2009, 09:50:42 PM »

We're looking forward to seeing you at the

Holiday Open House


December 1 - 20



Frybabe

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #556 on: November 30, 2009, 09:56:31 PM »
Works fine JoanK and I am not even a subscriber. Marvelous artwork. Some of them look almost modern. Wow!

And I thought the Etruscans were a bit mysterious. These people came wAAAAAAy before them. Thanks for the information Robby. I will be on the look out for more information.

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #557 on: November 30, 2009, 11:08:42 PM »
Thanks Robby for the diversion, and thanks Joan for the link to the NYT - - -

The part of the article that immediately caught my attention was the fact that the Spondylus (thorny oyster) shell was used for commercial exchange, either on its own account or made up into jewelry. 

The other shell that was commonly used in this manner (though considerably later in time) was the cowrie.  The Tiger Cowrie is especially beautiful, and much more durable.  I used to collect them, and had them cleaned out for me by ants, which ate the contents after they had been buried in shallow ground.

The spondylus is a bivalve shell, and presents no problem to clean.

Brian.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #558 on: November 30, 2009, 11:39:05 PM »
Amazing what different people have used for money. The Incas used cocoa beans (chocolate). And here are some pictures of wampum:

http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=wampum+picture&FORM=IGRE#

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #559 on: December 01, 2009, 06:57:28 AM »
I am thinking of cashing in my dollars for Euros.

Robby