Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant

[Justin]

I suspect there is good and evil in each of us and given the occasion we will apply the appropriate talent. Many times, I think,  we do evil while thinking it is a good thing. Something that may be good for me may not necessarily be good for others who are on the receiving end. That means evil is a question perspective. Israel builds a wall to ensure peace in the homeland  but the wall keeps Palestinians from reaching jobs in Israel  which results in women and children going hungry.

[Robby]

Hence the expression "One man's meat is another man's poison."

[Robby]

As I pause to think about the comments here regarding the popes of the past and the present, and as I think about other world figures who hold responsibility, there comes to mind the following fable.

The Emperor’s New Suit
by
Hans Christian Andersen
(1837)
Many years ago lived an emperor, who thought so much of new clothes that he spent all his money in order to obtain them; his only ambition was to be always well dressed. He did not care for his soldiers, and the theatre did not amuse him; the only thing, in fact, he thought anything of was to drive out and show a new suit of clothes. He had a coat for every hour of the day; and as one would say of a king “He is in his cabinet,” so one could say of him, “The emperor is in his dressing-room.” 

The great city where he resided was very gay; every day many strangers from all parts of the globe arrived. One day two swindlers came to this city; they made people believe that they were weavers, and declared they could manufacture the finest cloth to be imagined. Their colours and patterns, they said, were not only exceptionally beautiful, but the clothes made of their material possessed the wonderful quality of being invisible to any man who was unfit for his office or unpardonably stupid.

“That must be wonderful cloth,” thought the emperor. “If I were to be dressed in a suit made of this cloth I should be able to find out which men in my empire were unfit for their places, and I could distinguish the clever from the stupid. I must have this cloth woven for me without delay.” And he gave a large sum of money to the swindlers, in advance, that they should set to work without any loss of time. They set up two looms, and pretended to be very hard at work, but they did nothing whatever on the looms. They asked for the finest silk and the most precious gold-cloth; all they got they did away with, and worked at the empty looms till late at night.

“I should very much like to know how they are getting on with the cloth,” thought the emperor. But he felt rather uneasy when he remembered that he who was not fit for his office could not see it. Personally, he was of opinion that he had nothing to fear, yet he thought it advisable to send somebody else first to see how matters stood. Everybody in the town knew what a remarkable quality the stuff possessed, and all were anxious to see how bad or stupid their neighbours were.

“I shall send my honest old minister to the weavers,” thought the emperor. “He can judge best how the stuff looks, for he is intelligent, and nobody understands his office better than he.”

The good old minister went into the room where the swindlers sat before the empty looms. “Heaven preserve us!” he thought, and opened his eyes wide, “I cannot see anything at all,” but he did not say so. Both swindlers requested him to come near, and asked him if he did not admire the exquisite pattern and the beautiful colours, pointing to the empty looms. The poor old minister tried his very best, but he could see nothing, for there was nothing to be seen. “Oh dear,” he thought, “can I be so stupid? I should never have thought so, and nobody must know it! Is it possible that I am not fit for my office? No, no, I cannot say that I was unable to see the cloth.”

“Now, have you got nothing to say?” said one of the swindlers, while he pretended to be busily weaving.

“Oh, it is very pretty, exceedingly beautiful,” replied the old minister looking through his glasses. “What a beautiful pattern, what brilliant colours! I shall tell the emperor that I like the cloth very much.”

“We are pleased to hear that,” said the two weavers, and described to him the colours and explained the curious pattern. The old minister listened attentively, that he might relate to the emperor what they said; and so he did.

Now the swindlers asked for more money, silk and gold-cloth, which they required for weaving. They kept everything for themselves, and not a thread came near the loom, but they continued, as hitherto, to work at the empty looms.

Soon afterwards the emperor sent another honest courtier to the weavers to see how they were getting on, and if the cloth was nearly finished. Like the old minister, he looked and looked but could see nothing, as there was nothing to be seen.

“Is it not a beautiful piece of cloth?” asked the two swindlers, showing and explaining the magnificent pattern, which, however, did not exist.

“I am not stupid,” said the man. “It is therefore my good appointment for which I am not fit. It is very strange, but I must not let any one know it;” and he praised the cloth, which he did not see, and expressed his joy at the beautiful colours and the fine pattern. “It is very excellent,” he said to the emperor.

Everybody in the whole town talked about the precious cloth. At last the emperor wished to see it himself, while it was still on the loom. With a number of courtiers, including the two who had already been there, he went to the two clever swindlers, who now worked as hard as they could, but without using any thread.

“Is it not magnificent?” said the two old statesmen who had been there before. “Your Majesty must admire the colours and the pattern.” And then they pointed to the empty looms, for they imagined the others could see the cloth.

“What is this?” thought the emperor, “I do not see anything at all. That is terrible! Am I stupid? Am I unfit to be emperor? That would indeed be the most dreadful thing that could happen to me.”

“Really,” he said, turning to the weavers, “your cloth has our most gracious approval;” and nodding contentedly he looked at the empty loom, for he did not like to say that he saw nothing. All his attendants, who were with him, looked and looked, and although they could not see anything more than the others, they said, like the emperor, “It is very beautiful.” And all advised him to wear the new magnificent clothes at a great procession which was soon to take place. “It is magnificent, beautiful, excellent,” one heard them say; everybody seemed to be delighted, and the emperor appointed the two swindlers “Imperial Court weavers.”

The whole night previous to the day on which the procession was to take place, the swindlers pretended to work, and burned more than sixteen candles. People should see that they were busy to finish the emperor’s new suit. They pretended to take the cloth from the loom, and worked about in the air with big scissors, and sewed with needles without thread, and said at last: “The emperor’s new suit is ready now.”

The emperor and all his barons then came to the hall; the swindlers held their arms up as if they held something in their hands and said: “These are the trousers!” “This is the coat!” and “Here is the cloak!” and so on. “They are all as light as a cobweb, and one must feel as if one had nothing at all upon the body; but that is just the beauty of them.”

“Indeed!” said all the courtiers; but they could not see anything, for there was nothing to be seen. 

“Does it please your Majesty now to graciously undress,” said the swindlers, “that we may assist your Majesty in putting on the new suit before the large looking-glass?”

The emperor undressed, and the swindlers pretended to put the new suit upon him, one piece after another; and the emperor looked at himself in the glass from every side.

“How well they look! How well they fit!” said all. “What a beautiful pattern! What fine colours! That is a magnificent suit of clothes!”

The master of the ceremonies announced that the bearers of the canopy, which was to be carried in the procession, were ready.

“I am ready,” said the emperor. “Does not my suit fit me marvellously?” Then he turned once more to the looking-glass, that people should think he admired his garments.

The chamberlains, who were to carry the train, stretched their hands to the ground as if they lifted up a train, and pretended to hold something in their hands; they did not like people to know that they could not see anything.

The emperor marched in the procession under the beautiful canopy, and all who saw him in the street and out of the windows exclaimed: “Indeed, the emperor’s new suit is incomparable! What a long train he has! How well it fits him!” Nobody wished to let others know he saw nothing, for then he would have been unfit for his office or too stupid. Never emperor’s clothes were more admired.

“But he has nothing on at all,” said a little child at last. “Good heavens! listen to the voice of an innocent child,” said the father, and one whispered to the other what the child had said. “But he has nothing on at all,” cried at last the whole people. That made a deep impression upon the emperor, for it seemed to him that they were right; but he thought to himself, “Now I must bear up to the end.” And the chamberlains walked with still greater dignity, as if they carried the train which did not exist.

 

[Justin]

In the papers this morning there is a story about secrecy in the Papacy. It seems the Vatican has a tendency to hold clerical crimes secret and to try accused  clerics in Church courts thinking that should be sufficient. They see clerical crime as an issue of jurisdiction. This is the very issue over which Henry ll of England and the Archbishop of Canterbury, Thomas Becket, quarreled so many centuries ago. It resulted, you may recall, in the murder of Becket. Becket had refused to turn over to civilian authorities a priest who was alleged to have murdered a lay person.

[JoanK]

Just catching up. The article that Robby posted a while bach (#916?) raises a lot of points to think about.

"Clearly, humans did not need to wait for the Industrial Revolution or late-stage capitalism to begin coveting useless stuff".

It made me think about what things people make. They make things to stay alive, but even from very early they make things to satisfy other needs: beauty, religion, status.

Max Weber, the German sociologist, said that all societies had two sides: first came a need to stay alive, but a life spent staying alive was meaningless because it always failed. So the other side was a need to make life meaningless in the face of death. Among the things that people (and society) do to make life meaningful are those listed above: creating beauty which will outlast them, creating religions to make life make sense, status: a sense of "who you are" that is larger than yourself and can be passed down to chidren.

[Justin]

Joan: Attributed to Max Weber is the thought that among the things people make, we find religions created to help life make sense. Is that what religion is all about? ...making sense of life. Is that why we lean so heavily upon the supernatural? I think rather we invent religions to make sense of death. It is the end of life and fear of the unknown that drives us to imagine what life might be like after this life as we know it ends. I don't think it is inquisitiveness about life and the meaning of life ( as so many others think) that is the source for the complex inventions of religion. I think it is fear that drives one to explain death and life after death. It is not life that must make sense but death. What do you think? Is that explanation closer to reality than Weber's?

[JoanK]

Perhaps.

[Frybabe]

Justin you are right in a sense. Humans, I believe, have a fundamental fear of the unknown, whether it be Death or some natural phenomena. So, we need to explain both life events and death to assuage that fear. Max Weber is not a philosopher I have studied, BTW, so I can't speak to his beliefs.

[Justin]

Joan: Alright, so it not mathematics.

[Justin]

Fryabee. I agree. Unexplained natural phenomena is also a cause of fear that can be placed in the hands of a benevolent God or at least a God who can be persuaded to be good to his subjects by sacrifice and demonstrations of love and admiration.

[Robby]

For those of us who were together as we discussed Durant's first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage."

In Syria, a Prologue for Cities
By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
Archaeologists have embarked on excavations in northern Syria expected to widen and deepen understanding of a prehistoric culture in Mesopotamia that set the stage for the rise of the world’s first cities and states and the invention of writing.

In two seasons of preliminary surveying and digging at the site known as Tell Zeidan, American and Syrian investigators have already uncovered a tantalizing sampling of artifacts from what had been a robust pre-urban settlement on the upper Euphrates River. People occupied the site for two millenniums, until 4000 B.C. — a little-known but fateful period of human cultural evolution.

Scholars of antiquity say that Zeidan should reveal insights into life in a time called the Ubaid period, 5500 to 4000 B.C. In those poorly studied centuries, irrigation agriculture became widespread, long-distance trade grew in influence socially and economically, powerful political leaders came to the fore and communities gradually divided into social classes of wealthy elites and poorer commoners.

Gil Stein, director of the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, a leader of the excavations at Zeidan, said the site’s northern location promised to enrich knowledge of the Ubaid culture’s influence far from where the first urban centers eventually flourished in the lower Tigris and Euphrates Valley. The new explorations, he said, are planned to be the most comprehensive yet at a large Ubaid settlement, possibly yielding discoveries for decades.

“I figure I’m going to be working there till I retire,” said Dr. Stein, who is 54.

There are several reasons for excitement over the Zeidan excavations. Warfare and ensuing unstable conditions have locked archaeologists out of Iraq and its prime sites of Mesopotamian antiquity. So they have redoubled research in the upper river valleys, across the border in Syria and southern Turkey. And Zeidan is readily accessible. Having never been built upon by subsequent cultures, it is free of any overburden of ruins to thwart excavators.

Above all, a driving ambition of archaeologists always is to dig beneath the known past for more than glimpses of the little known.

For almost two centuries, the glory went to expeditions unearthing the houses and temples, granaries and workshops of earliest urban centers like Uruk, seat of the legendary Gilgamesh, and the later splendors of Ur and Nineveh. The challenge was to decipher the clay tablets of a literate civilization with beginnings in what is known as the Uruk period, 4000 to 3200 B.C.

Uruk remains overshadowed the traces of Ubaid cultures, the region’s earliest known complex society. Only a handful of ruins — at Ubaid, Eridu and Oueili in southern Mesopotamia and Tepe Gawra, in the north near Mosul, Iraq — had produced at best a sketchy picture of these older cultures. A few Ubaid sites in northern Syria were either too small to be revealing or virtually inaccessible under other ruins.

A decade ago, Richard L. Zettler, a University of Pennsylvania archaeologist with extensive experience in Syria, said, “Our real focus now should not be on the Uruk period, but the Ubaid.”

Last week, Dr. Zettler, who is not associated with the Chicago team but has visited the site, said that Zeidan preserves artifacts over a long sequence of Ubaid culture at a junction of major trade routes. “We should see the transition as the Ubaid spread from the south up to farming regions in the north,” he said.

Guillermo Algaze, an anthropologist at the University of California, San Diego, and an authority on early urbanism in the Middle East not involved in new research, said recently that Zeidan “has the potential to revolutionize current interpretations of how civilization in the Near East came about.”

Tell Zeidan is a two-hour drive southeast of Aleppo and three miles from the modern town of Raqqa. Muhammad Sarhan, a curator of the Raqqa Museum, is co-director, with Dr. Stein, of the excavations, formally known as the Joint Syrian-American Archaeological Research Project at Tell Zeidan.

The site consists of three large mounds on the east bank of the Balikh River, just north of its confluence with the Euphrates. The mounds, the tallest being 50 feet high, enclose ruins of a lower town. Buried remains and a scattering of ceramics on the surface extend over an area of 31 acres, which makes this probably larger than any other known Ubaid community.

It would seem that the mounds had long stood on the semi-arid landscape as an open invitation for archaeologists to stop and dig. A few stopped. The American archaeologist William F. Albright identified the place in 1926. The British archaeologist Sir Max Mallowan, husband of the mystery writer Agatha Christie, was intrigued and made a brief survey in the 1930s. A Dutch team led by Maurits van Loon took an interest in 1983, finding that the site appeared to date to the Ubaid period. A German group asked the Syrians for permission to excavate but was turned down.

Finally, after initial visits to Zeidan, Dr. Stein said the Syrian government “encouraged me to submit an application” to dig. Why the change?

“I was incredibly thrilled, but can only speculate on what their reasons were,” Dr. Stein said in a recent interview, referring to the Syrian decision. “Perhaps they were waiting for the right team to come along. Our institute had worked in Syria for something like 80 years, and we were interested in a long-term commitment. We also pointed out that the site was endangered from agricultural development along its edges. Parts of the site had already been bulldozed for fields and a canal.”

In the summers of 2008 and 2009, Dr. Stein directed mapping of the Zeidan ruins and digging exploratory trenches. He said the initial findings confirmed this to be a “proto-urban community” in the Ubaid period, most likely the site of a prominent temple.

A description and interpretation of the discoveries so far was published in the Oriental Institute’s recent annual report, followed by an announcement this week by the University of Chicago. The international excavation team, supported by the National Science Foundation in the United States, is to resume fieldwork in July.

Four distinct phases of occupation have been identified at Zeidan. A simpler culture known as the Halaf is found in the bottom sediments, well-preserved Ubaid material in the middle and two layers of late Copper Age remains on top. From the evidence so far, the transitions between periods seemed to have been peaceful.

Archaeologists have turned up remains of house floors with hearths, fragments of mudbrick house walls, painted Ubaid pottery and sections of larger walls, possibly part of fortifications or monumental public architecture. The ceramic styles and radiocarbon tests date the wall to about 5000 B.C.

One of the most telling finds was a stone seal depicting a deer, presumably used to stamp a mark on goods to identify ownership in a time before writing. About 2-by 2- 1/2 inches, the seal is unusually large and carved from a red stone not native to the area. In fact, archaeologists said, it was similar in design to a seal found 185 miles to the east, at Tepe Gawra, near Mosul.

To archaeologists, a seal is not just a seal. Dr. Zettler said it signifies that “somebody has the authority to restrict access to things — to close and seal jars, bags, doors — and so once you have these seals you must have had social stratification.”

The existence of elaborate seals with near-identical motifs at such widely distant sites, Dr. Stein said, “suggests that in this period, high-ranking elites were assuming leadership positions across a very broad region, and those dispersed elites shared a common set of symbols and perhaps even a common ideology of superior social status.”

Other artifacts attest to the culture’s shift from self-sufficient village life to specialized craft production dependent on trade and capable of acquiring luxury goods, the archaeologists reported. Such a transition is assumed to have required some administrative structure and produced a wealthy class. The expedition will be searching for remains of temples and imposing public buildings as confirmation of these political and social changes.

In what appears to be the site’s industrial area, archaeologists uncovered eight large kilns for firing pottery, one of the most ubiquitous Ubaid commodities over wide trading areas. They found blades made from the high-quality volcanic glass obsidian. An abundance of obsidian chips showed that the blades were produced at the site, and the material’s color and chemical composition indicated that it came from mines in what is now Turkey.

“We found flint sickle blades everywhere,” Dr. Stein said, noting that they had a glossy sheen “where they had been polished by the silica in the stems of wheat that they were used to harvest.”

Zeidan also had a smelting industry for making copper tools, the most advanced technology of the fifth millennium B.C. The people presumably reached as far as 250 miles away to trade for the nearest copper ore, at sources around modern-day Diyarbakir, Turkey. Getting the ore home was no easy task. In a time before the wheel or domesticated donkeys, people had to bear the heavy burden on their backs.

A site like Tell Zeidan, Dr. Zettler said, is “telling us that the Uruk cities didn’t come out of nowhere, they evolved from foundations laid in the Ubaid period.”

Until recently, Dr. Algaze said, “accidents of data recovery” had led scholars to think the origin of cities and states in Mesopotamia was “a fairly abrupt occurrence in the fourth millennium that as concentrated in what is southern Iraq.”

The southern cities may have been larger and more enduring, he said, but increasing exploration on the Mesopotamian periphery, especially the spread of trade and technology among interacting Ubaid cultures, suggests that “the seed of urban civilization” had been planted well before 4000 B.C.

[mabel1015j]

Isn't it wonderful that we keep learning more and more about all periods of history? I frequently say that i'm so glad there are people who want to be engaged in certain occupations - archeologist, primatologists (out there in the forests/jungles w/ all the bugs, etc.) space research, and on and on - ones that i'm not at all interested in pursuing, but so glad that others are. I love reading about their research, just glad i don't have to do it to learn it. ............. jean

[Justin]

It's wonderful. Here we are just getting used to the Sumerian civilization with Ur and Uruk  and their 5000 to six thousand year old artifacts and now an older civilization comes into view-one several millenniums older. The instability in Iraq has had a cultural benefit as a by-product. I look forward to knowledge of older and older civilizations. I think it's just wonderful that we are able to  uncover all these past treasures. 

[winsummm]

Tel Zeidan could keep us going for a long time.  This is an area that really intrigues me because of the pottery and metal crafts. I would love to see pictures of  these items and I know I'm going to need maps with large print on them.  what sounds like a casual knowledge of the area is completely strange to me.  are there referrals, links with some of this material available?

claire

[winsummm]

look what I found under summerian artifacts. there is more but not obviously noted.

http://xfacts.com/ancient/

hope that link works. YEP AND IT IS WONDERFUL  THIRTY FIVE IMAGES

claire

[winsummm]

wikipedia has more and more and more

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia#Geography

now I know were Mesopotamia is.

claire

[mabel1015j]

Niiice Claire, thanks for finding those...............jean

[Brian]

Justin's - - -        

5000 to six thousand year old artifacts

brought me to thinking about the controversy between the Evolutionists and the "Others", and I collected a couple of sites for the fun of it : -
(The first is a little slow to load)

The earth is only 5,000 years old - - -  http://www.scribd.com/doc/18764301/Is-the-Earth-4600000000-Years-Old-or-Only-2191000-Days-6000-Years-Old

The earth is over 4.5 million years old - - -http://www.dasmirnov.net/blog/the_earth_is_older_than_6000_years

Who says that history is bunk?

Brian.

[Justin]

Claire; The Sumerian seals are revealing. Thank you.  The Egyptian civilization and the Sumerian one are concomitant. The first Egyptian Dynasty occurs about 3100 BCE and the Sumerians were active in that period and for a millennium prior. Their art shown on seals resembles that of the Egyptians. It is royal and human with animals in a narrative form. Some of the figures on the Sumerian seals indicate gods in the same format as used by the Egyptians ie; human figures with animal heads and head dresses. The gods evidently evolved from one civilization to another just as our gods today evolved from Hebrew to Christianity to Islam.

[Justin]

Brian: It's hard to be tolerant of people who date the earth to fit their peculiar religious ideas and call it scientific measurement. We don't know the age of the earth yet but we are on the trail of it. Our measuring tools are improving as I write. We have artifacts from the paleolithic period dating from 300,000 BCE. We have human skeletal remains dating from much earlier. We are ready to burst the quark in Switzerland this year. The accelerator is up and running and major experiments are about to begin. We can not stop such work because some believer thinks the Bible is the only source of knowledge. 

[Justin]

I am dismayed by the response of the Papacy to the priestly abuse of children and the proximity of the crime to the Holy Father. The closer the finger of guilt draws to Benedict the more they panic. Now Benedict, worried that the victims have put the finger on him, declares himself a victim rather than a perpetrator. He says, people are advocating a hate Catholics message because he is against Gay marriage and abortion. What is the matter with them. The victims are the priests and the children. The papacy is the perpetrator. I sincerely hope the diversion does not work for them. They are ballsy and scared and bound by the chains of tradition.

[winsummm]

it is easy to be impatient with believers of all stripes and especially the catholic ones, but i don't  bother anymore. Not anymore than I would bother being impatient with little kids who want to know about Santa Claus etc.  

I think this long seemingly endless religious period,, almost a race to me,  is beginning to slow down and who knows when it will end. Even seniors like us don't cling so strongly to such believes any more. "this too will pass"
. except for the harm the fearful religious people  and heir various modes of defending do, there is no reason to even pay attention.
 I just hit 82 and it seems to matter to me how I spend the rest of my life what there is of it. Why waste it Defending against something which is  now Becoming irrelevantl. Time is short.

I have to pay taxes and bills my pet hates, and those are relevant. . . all over my desk staring at me. my car And my home are at risk if I don't pay attention. I can get away with ignoring religion.

[winsummm]

and Justin I can understand your outrage when Popes are morally WRONG. I don't' like it when Jews misbehave either even though I'm only a secular one I still feel the identity. the bad things they do belong to me to.

Dr. Carll Wite at iucla art history started with Mesopotamia and the Egyptians with great emphasis beginning with the straigh abstract figures from the OLD KINDOM. which a 2500 or is it older as you suggest at 3100.  the middle king dome had roman heads glaring all over thing and then the new one whose days I forget.  the Sumerians came early on and were warlike as well  as cultured were they bilingual  as wikiedia suggests certain language for certain purposes. hmmm.. .  is it true? well time for bed. now THAT is relevant.

[winsummm]

good morning .
my USNG  e-mails are still reporting after shocks.  I don't feel them although there were a couple over five.0

the earth continues to shake and for a while longer so shall  we.

claire

[Justin]

Claire; Most art history folks start with the Willendorf Venus around 25000 BCE and Franco Cave art of 15,000BCE in the Upper Paleolithic era. Then there are the Spanish Marching Warriors dated at about 8000 BCE. The Catal Huyuk culture comes in about 6000BCE with it's artifacts. The early Sumerians come in about 3000 BCE  in Mesopotamia and the Egyptians appear in Upper Egypt, above Ehthiopia and Sudan in a similar period. The Tel Zeidan group falls in between Catal Huyuk and the Sumerians in roughly 5000 to 4000 BCE. As you can see we are beginning to fill-in our awareness of the civilizations of the Paleolithic and neolithic periods.

[winsummm]

Justin what an over  view of the time. I saved it and I think we should have it in the heading with a colored map showing where we made these findings. .. . .
fascinating. and I want to see all the art connected to them. wha tkind of potter shards did they find. You can tell a lot from very little. except for the working climate I would have liked to dig up old worlds in my youth.

[winsummm]

I never knew the  spanish marching warriers so google introduced me --==--  here

 tp://facweb.st-agnes.org/home/lcosta/html/Art_Hist/html/marchingwarriors_info.htm

the art history site says it is 7000 bce?? can't get the new figures right withouth christ as a date line.
keep forgeting what it means in words.

now back to look around.  it seems to be a class and I couldn't continue to look for other information there. maybe can sign up though.

[Brian]

Spanish Marching Warriors  or   Ritualistic Dancers ? - - -

You can see them here : -

http://art.uga.edu/courses/arhi3000/slides/mesolith/gasgorg.html

Brian.

[Brian]

B.C.  B.C.E.  and  C.E. - - -

http://www.religioustolerance.org/ce.htm

Brian.

[Justin]

The Gospels tell us that Jesus was born shortly before the death of Herod. Herod died in 4BCE so we can fix the date of His birth as shortly before 4BCE. Some say as early as 7BCE and others say January to June of 4BCE because H went in July of that year. There are long involved arguments for each date but I am just as happy with either date. There must have been several Yashuas born in that time period. The name was popular- a little like "Smith."  Christ, of course, is Greek and stands for Messiah.

[winsummm]

Bryan  what a geat site.  so many of these forms look modern.  beautiful. thank you. claire

[winsummm]

brian:  so there is a controversy over which designation to use .bec or others.  the site you stgest  wants money so I didn't get very far with that screen in the way since I can't afford to sponser a child. but there are OUTIDE LINKS relative to theology there for others who may enjoy them.

claire

another thing.  i took forever but I just charged to my credit card my property taxes.  they   got their fee for service too but WHaT A RELIEF.

no wonder we get confused  ,

 claire

[mabel1015j]

Most of the textbooks  have been using BCE and CE for about a decade or more..............(i started to say "all of the t-bks" but remembered that Texas may not buy t-bks that use BCE, etc..............sigh.............)
Jean

[Justin]

Jean: Yes, Texas is a state that seems to go it's own way. They like to think of the US as a Christian Nation and they are in many ways a Christian State. Sam Houston and Steven Austin would roll over in their graves were they aware of the lack of American ideas among contemporary Texans. 

[Robby]

In today's NY Times.

Do Popes Quit?
By DANIEL J. WAKIN
VATICAN CITY — He is elected for life, by a group of elderly men infused with the will of God. People address him as Holy Father, not Mr. President. After bishop of Rome, his second title is vicar of Jesus Christ.

Can a man like this quit his job?

A smattering of voices suggest that Pope Benedict XVI can, and should, as outrage has built in recent weeks over clerical abuses in the Catholic Church. The calls — from some lay Catholics, bloggers, secular publications like the German magazine Der Spiegel and street protesters — have been fueled by reports that laid blame at his doorstep, citing his response both as a bishop long ago in Germany and as a cardinal heading the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which handles these cases. In the most recent disclosure, on Friday, the news emerged that in 1985, when Benedict was Cardinal Ratzinger, he signed a letter putting off efforts to defrock a convicted child-molesting priest. He cited the priest’s relative youth but also the good of the church.

Vatican officials and experts who follow the papacy closely dismiss the idea of stepping down. “There is no objective motive to think in terms of resignation, absolutely no motive,” said the Rev. Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, in an interview before Friday’s disclosure. “It’s a completely unfounded idea.”

Friday’s disclosure is not likely to change that position. The princes of the church — the cardinals who elected Benedict five years ago — have been virulent in their rejection of criticism of the pontiff. Last week, the dean of the cardinals, Angelo Sodano, told the official Vatican daily L’Osservatore Romano that it was not Jesus’ fault that Judas betrayed him and not a bishop’s fault if a priest shamed himself. “And certainly the pontiff is not responsible,” said Cardinal Sodano, who referred to church criticism as “petty gossip” before the pope’s Easter Mass in St. Peter’s Square — although on Friday, the Vatican spokesman adopted a softer tone in a Vatican Radio address.

There is a more practical reason why Benedict will most likely remain on the throne of Peter, said Alberto Melloni, a professor of church history and the director of the liberal Catholic John XXIII Foundation for Religious Science in Bologna. Who in the hierarchy would want an ex-pope sitting around, possibly passing judgment on his successor, possibly attracting a rival faction?

Mr. Melloni offered another, subtler explanation for why the pope would not be leaving. To resign, paradoxically, the pope has to feel in a strong enough position to say, “Of course, God does not need me; he can drive the church with any other type of driver,” Mr. Melloni said. A pope with that kind of confidence probably wouldn’t need his cardinals to defend him so vigorously, which suggests that Benedict may feel insecure, in Mr. Melloni’s interpretation.

If serious evidence of the pope’s involvement in bad decisions emerges, the cardinals might be inclined to soften in their support. In any case, it is possible that the cardinal electors will take a closer look at the record of candidates on abuse issues for the next election.

Most analysts reject the possibility of resignation. “A lot of foreign newspapers are saying it, but the answer is absolutely no,” said Emma Fattorini, a professor of history at the University of Rome. “The church is not a party, a movement, a newspaper, a government.”

Of course, popes have resigned before — the last a mere 595 years ago, when Gregory XII stepped down to heal a schism. Before that, Celestine V, a fiercely ascetic former hermit who wore his temporal power heavily, resigned in 1294 (Dante consigned him to hell for cowardice, some interpreters of the “Inferno” believe).

While it does not apply to Benedict, another reason for papal resignation was widely discussed in the Vatican in the years before John Paul II’s death in 2005. Several cardinals openly raised the possibility in the event John Paul became too ill to govern.

One of those cardinals was Joseph Ratzinger. If John Paul “sees that he absolutely cannot do it anymore, then certainly he will resign,” the cardinal was quoted as saying in the weekly publication of his old archdiocese, back in 2002. Two years later, he gave some insight into his conception of the papacy in an interview with the Italian Catholic weekly Famiglia Cristiana. “The pope is chosen for life because he is a father, and his paternity goes beyond his function,” he said, paraphrasing Pope Paul VI.

John Paul himself entertained thoughts about resigning. In his last will and testament, he wrote, “Providence has seen fit for me to live in the difficult century that is departing into the past, and now in the year in which I reach my 80s, one needs to ask oneself if it is not the time to repeat with the biblical Simeon, ‘Nunc dimittis.’ ” The Latin was a reference to a Gospel passage in which Simeon says, “Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace.”

John Paul was responsible for two recent but fleeting references to papal resignation in official church policy. A revision of the code of canon law issued under him, in 1983, says, “If it happens that the Roman pontiff resigns his office, it is required for validity that the resignation is made freely and properly manifested but not that it is accepted by anyone.”

In John Paul’s 1996 constitution on papal succession, “Universi Dominici Gregis,” he made a reference to “the death or valid resignation of the pope” as he set limits on the College of Cardinals’ actions after either event. In any case, it might be no surprise that the leader of a worldwide church of one billion people would at least think about throwing in the towel. Pius XII reportedly planned to resign if the Nazis invaded the Vatican, and some believed that Paul VI, weighed down by the office, contemplated the idea, according to “101 Questions and Answers on Popes and the Papacy,” by Christopher M. Bellitto, a church historian at Kean University in Union, N.J.

“I think it’s highly unlikely that this pope will resign,” Mr. Bellitto said. “There’s in his mind and the curia’s mind not enough evidence that he did anything wrong. I imagine he thinks, ‘Probably God put me in this position, and it will be up to God to take me out of this position.’ ”


Robby

[Robby]

PIUS III

[Robby]

Returning to Durant - -

Enea Silvio de’ Piccolomini began his career in 1405  in the town of Corsignano, near Siena, of poor parents with a noble pedigree.

 The University of Siena taught him laws.  It was not to his taste, for he loved literature, but it gave keenness and order to his mind and prepared him for the tasks of administration and diplomacy.  At Florence he studied the humanities under Filelfo and from that time he remained a humanist.  At twenty seven he was engaged as secretary by Cardinal Capranica, whom he accompanied to the Council of Basel.

 There he fell in with a group hostile to Eugenius IV.  For many years thereafter he defended the Conciliar movement against the papal power.  For a time he served as secretary to the Antipope Felix V.  Perceiving that he hitched his wagon to a falling star, he coaxed a bishop to introduce him to the Emperor Frederick III.  Soon he received a post in the royal chancery and in 1442 he accompanied Frederick to Austria.  For a while he remained moored.   

In those formative years he seemed quite formless – merely a clever climber who had no sturdy principles, no goal but success.  He passed from cause to cause without losing his heart and from woman to woman with a gay inconstancy that seemed to him – and to most of his contemporaries – the proper training for the obligations of matrimony.  He wrote for a friend a love letter designed to melt the obstinacy of a girl who preferred marriage to fornication.  Of his several illegitimate children he sent one to his father, asking him to rear it and confessing that he was “neither holier than David nor wiser than Solomon.  The young devil could quote Scripture to his purpose.  He wrote a novel to the manner of Boccaccio  It was translated into almost every European tongue and plagued him in the  days of his sanctity.  Though his further advancement seemed to require taking holy orders, he shrank from the step  because like Augustine, he doubted his capacity for continence.

He wrote against the celibacy of the clergy. 

Should we be surprised at the papacy of today?

Robby

[mabel1015j]

I don't think the pope should resign over this, but as i said before he should state a clear policy that the behavior is criminal and not to be tolerated.
Celestine V, a fiercely ascetic former hermit who wore his temporal power heavily, resigned in 1294 (Dante consigned him to hell for cowardice, some interpreters of the “Inferno” believe).

Why would cardinals elect such a man to the papacy and why would he have his name in consideration? Can you remove your name from consideration? ................ former hermit? Doesn't that give some hint as his ability to associate w/ all of the people that a pope has to associate with? .......................  ..............jean

[Justin]

The election process in the college of cardinals is fraught with politics. Sometimes a really good man is available but not seasoned enough for the job. In such a case the college has been known to chose a man who is old and expected to go in a few short years due age or illness. Sometimes they want a man who is not expected to rock the boat- one who can be manipulated by a leading coterie and hence we get hermits etc. Often the college has been fooled. The man chosen as a time filler turns out to be a game changer.

[Justin]

If I had to name two Popes I admire I think Nicholas V and Pius ll would be high on my list. Pius was a writer. His Tale of Two Lovers is a pleasant little gem. It's not great but it's tantalizing to read. The question  raised is the perenial one. Will the protagonist ever make it to the lady's bed? 

The man continued to write fiction even after assuming the Papacy. If you google Aeneas Silvio de Piccolomini you will find some of his works. He wrote a novel similar to that of Boccaccio.He had some trouble with the concept of celibacy for he liked women. Who doesn't like women for goodness sakes but ambition ruled in his case and he succumbed to the mitre and the red hat.  He wrote pieces against clerical celibacy and he never gave up writing fiction. Some of it is really enjoyable so I encourage you to read his stuff. I'm not at all sure he gave up women either and he certainly agonized over the oath of celibacy. He fathered several illegitimate children before taking the oath.

As Pontiffs go he was head and shoulders above most of them but his interests were Humanist rather than religious. His election occurred because a strong contender was undesirable to the majority. He was a compromise selection. He knew his way around diplomatically and was in fact a good choice though I don't think his electors were entirely happy with him.