Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online

[PatH]

The Mystery of Edwin Drood - by Charles Dickens

Had Dickens lived to complete "The Mystery of Edwin Drood," his 15th novel would have been one of his major accomplishments, say many of his critics. The novel was scheduled to be published in twelve installments  from April 1870 to March 1871. Only six of the installments were completed before Dickens's death in 1870, which left the mystery half finished. "The ideal mystery is one you would read if the end was missing," writes Richard Chandler, creator of Philip Marlowe. Reading and discussing an unfinished mystery is a unique experience, especially when shared with a group. Will we agree with the critics, or go mad trying to figure out what he intended for the young engaged couple introduced at the start of the book?  And what has become of young Edwin Drood? Help us track down clues as we read along ... and then we'll each propose our own ending during the last few days of the discussion.

Chapter discussion schedule September 1-6: 1-6 September 7-13: 7-12 September 14-20: 13-18 September 21-27: 19-23 This unfinished mystery is available in several places on the Internet at no cost but you might want to purchase the book or borrow it from your library, in order to read one of the editions, such as the Penguin Classics, that has useful footnotes.

Questions for your consideration this week: Chapters 19-23

1.   Chapter 19--Shadow on the Sun-Dial--what is the significance of the title?

2.  What is Jasper willing to sacrifice for Rosa?  Were you surprised by his declaration of love?  Was Rosa?

3.  Chapter 20--A Flight.  Is it a good idea for Rosa to go to Mr. Grewgious?  Does he seem less "angular" and "dry" now that we've seen more of him?

4.  Chapter 21--A Recognition.  Mr Tartar has a history, it seems.  What do you think Dickens might have planned for him?  How old is he?

5.  Chapter 22--A Gritty State of Things Comes on.  Can you picture Tartar's home and the conversation between Rosa and Helena Landless?  Which parts of the description stand out?

6.  Why does Billickin object to signing the lease with her Christian name?

7.  Are the Billickin and Miss Twinkleton worthy opponents?

8.  Why does Miss Twinkleton expurgate all the love scenes when reading to Rosa?

9.  Chapter 23--The Dawn Again.  Did you notice the shift back to present tense early in the chapter?

10.  Why does the Princess Puffer follow Jasper from London to Cloisterham?

See the previous questions and related links.

Discussion Leaders: Deems, Marcie

[Jonathan]

'she now knows that her marriage to Edwin is not written in stone.  There is a way out.' 

But is that what Rosa really wants? When Helena tells her that there is a fascination about her, Rosa replys, if only Edwin felt that way. She wants to be courted. Edwin also feels unhappy that their fathers prevented them from choosing each other. Perhaps some time in the future they will discover how much they mean to each other.

Joan, I don't think Rosa went to any trouble to find a way out of her predicament. It seems to me it was the guardian, Mr Grewgious, who came to her with the information that she was free to call it off with Edwin. Why? It seems that Mr. G would like to see her remain single.

[JoanK]

Perhaps you're right about Rosa's effort to find her way out. I was thinking more of the next chapter, which we haven't read yet -- got my chapters mixed up.

Perhaps we will never know how Dickens meant these young people to be "paired up". It seems clear that Edwin fancies Helena and Neville fancies Rosa. We don't know, do we, how Helena feels at all. I think Rosa just isn't ready to settle down into marraige.

[Deems]

Good afternoon, all.  I've been thumbing through my book to see if I could find a specific place where it is clear that Drood is to marry Pussy when he comes of age and then they will go off to Egypt where he will "turn on the lights," bring a little of the modern world to that benighted country (his opinion, not mine). 

In searching I came upon two places that show Edwin in a not so favorable light.  In Chapter 2, he admits to Jasper, "I am afraid I am but a shallow, surface kind of fellow, Jack, and that my headpiece is none of the best."  Maybe that's part of the reason that I just can't warm to him.  He is careless.

There's a wonderful illustration, facing p. 76 in the Penguin entitled "On dangerous ground."  Neville and Edwin are partaking of some mulled wine which it takes Jasper quite a while to produce.  I'm suspecting that he is adding some opium to it to assure that the two young men, already not fond of each other, might be fired up more easily.  The illustration shows Jasper in the middle, gesturing to Edwin who is leaning back in a chair with his arms behind his head and remarking, "See where he lounges so easily, Mr. Neville!  The world is all before him where to choose.  A life of stirring work and interest, a life of change and excitement, a life of domestic ease and love!  Look at him!"

Is that baiting or what?

After Edwin responds, the narrator inserts, "His speech has become thick and indistinct.  Jasper, quiet and self-possessed, looks to Neville, as expecting his answer or comment.  When Neville speaks, his speech is also thick and indistinct."

OK, what's going on in this scene and why does it make me like Edwin even less?

For one thing Jasper controls the conversation by occasionally asking questions, always intended to stir up the two younger men.  He has doctored the mulled wine.  Very little drinking has been done and yet speech has become slurred.  Then after he gets them going, he drops out of the conversation, following it back and forth as one then the other speaks.  Finally Edwin says "You may know a black common fellow, or a black common boaster, when you see him (and no doubt you have a large acquaintance that way); but you are no judge of white men."  I shudder to think how he might treat the Egyptians he is to work among.

And then Neville throws the dregs of his wine at Drood and is about to throw the goblet too when Jasper catches his arm.

Back to why I'm critical of Edwin.  He seems careless to me; he takes little note of how other people might feel (perhaps Rosa has picked up on this characteristic as well--since he seems quite unaware that she is dreading going to Egypt); he's self-assured and likely to turn into an arrogant man.  He reminds me of Tom and Daisy Buchanan in The Great Gatsby.  At the very end of that book, Nick Carroway, the narrator, comments that their main problem was that they were careless.  They broke other people and then moved on.  Carelessness is their chief crime. 

But what do you think? 

[JoanK]

DEEMS:"I'm suspecting that he is adding some opium to it to assure that the two young men, already not fond of each other, might be fired up more easily".

hOW CLEVER OF YOU! I missed that completely! I see we have to read this book very closely. I'll bet there are all kinds of things like that that I (at least) am not seeing at all.

I'll have to look and see if it's Jasper who is fanning the fire of dislike that follows Neville after this incident.

I haven't been reading the notes in my Penguin edition: it's much too distracting while I'm reading. But since I've finished the next section early, I thnk I'll go back, and pick them up. I see this book repays more careful reading than I've been giving it.

[PatH]

Yes, I'm sure Jack has put opium in the mulled wine.  He drinks the wine too, but he's an addict, and would have a much greater tolerance.  Opium is a mixture of alkaloids, so it probably tastes pretty bitter, but mulled wine is heated with sugar and spices like cinnamon and cloves, so maybe that would disguise it.

[PatH]

Deems, I'm with you about Edwin.  He's annoyingly offhand and supercilious.  He's already admitted he isn't a particularly good engineer, but he refers to his coming job as "Going to wake up Egypt a little".  And he treats Rosa very patronizingly.  He says of their coming marriage that although things are somewhat flat now, "I have no doubt of our getting on capitally then, when it's done and can't be helped".

Rosa was already looking for a way out when Mr. Grewgious came down to Cloisterham.  Grewgious came down in part to tell her that the engagement was not binding, but Rosa asked him about it before he brought up the subject.

Later, Grewgious talks to Edwin in London.  Its pretty funny; Grewgious sentimentally describes all the wonderful emotions an engaged man feels for his beloved, not noticing that Edwin is getting more and more uncomfortable, because he doesn't feel that way at all.

I don't think Grewgious is in love with Rosa; he's still in love with her mother, and Rosa looks like her, but that's all.  He's reluctant to give up the ring because it was the mother's.

[Deems]

Joan K--Thanks, but I've read through these chapters twice (and have gone back and looked things up) and the scene between the three men intrigues me.  Jasper is really running the show.  He didn't need to point out how much Edwin has going for him and especially not to Neville who he knows has just been in some kind of argument with Edwin. 

Pat H--Thank you.  "Supercilious" is exactly the word I was looking for.  And we must remember that Jasper, while in process of needling Neville about all that Edwin has to look forward to, is also making us aware of his own jealousy of his nephew.  Not only is he going to get Rosa, but he will have an exciting life in an exotic place, far away from Cloisterham which we already know Jasper detests.  I wonder why Jasper decided to settle there, as well as why he decided on his profession since he so is unhappy.  He all but confesses to Edwin not only that he has been taking opium but also that he has a pain.  He doesn't mention what kind of pain, but he does go into detail about how dull his life is.  I suspect that his pain is psychological.  He is not a happy puppy.

There's so much more to know about these characters, and we only have half a novel.  Ah, the frustration. 

[Jonathan]

Wonderful posts. So many provocative ideas to reply to. Yes, every nod and every wink in the text is significant. And subject to interpretation. What a tale. My imagination was caught by the following scenario.

'I regard Durdles as a character', says Mr. Sapsea, a bit of a character himself, the auctioneer, who patterns his manner and speech on those of the Dean of the cathedral, and is sometimes taken for him.

How would you like to do 'a moonlight expedition with Durdles among the tombs, vaults, towers, and ruins,' which Dickens chose as the setting for his tale?

Jasper would like to. 'I have had some day-rambles with this extraordinary old fellow, and we are to make a moonlight hole-and-corner exploration to-night.' And Jasper gets himself into the mood. With great anticipation, he goes home to his piano, and ' there with no light but that of the fire, he sits chanting choir-music in a low and beautiful voice, for two or three hours; in short, until it has been for some time dark, and the moon is about to rise.'

Off they go, Jasper and Durdles, to walk among the ghosts of the cathedral. Are you ready, asks Jasper.

'I am ready, Mister Jarspers. Let the old uns come out if they dare, when we go among their tombs. My spirit is ready for 'em.'

Little does Dardles suspect that it's the laced spirits in the bottle he gets from Jasper that will put him to sleep, allowing Jasper to seek his own excitement in the spooky crypt. What does he hope to find? While the drugged Dardles dreams. But what an hallucinogenic bust. In a fine example of humorous English understatement, Dickens says only:

'It is not much of a dream, considering the vast extent of the domains of dreamland, and their wonderful productions.'

That is so funny, but what was Jasper up to while Durdles dreamed? He himself goes off to London's opium dens for his hyper-dreams.

[Jonathan]

Imagine being dumped in a place like Cloisterham. How long will it be before Helena and Neville try another escape? It will be...what...their fourth or fifth attempt? They obviously have been shunted about, before landing in Mr. Honeythunder's lap. No family friend this. Just a handy philanthropist with whom to leave two unhappy campers. Neville doesn't even know enough about Mr. Honeythunder to want to murder him.

[PatH]

Question 14: examples of foreshadowing in "A Night with Durdles":

The chapter is crammed with foreshadowing, but I'll start with one, when Jasper is walking out of Durdles' house with D.

"'Ware that there mound by the yard-gate, Mister Jarsper."
"I see it.  What is it?"
"Lime."
Mr Jasper stops, and waits for him to come up, for he lags behind.  "What you call quick-lime?"
"Ay!" says Durdles; "quick enough to eat your boots.  With a little handy stirring, quick enough to eat your bones."

Big red flag to a mystery addict.  Quicklime is commonly used in old mystery stories to dissolve bodies, probably even works.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium_oxide

Quotes from above:

"It has traditionally been used in the burial of bodies in open graves, to hide the smell of decomposition"

"Furthermore, quicklime is used in epidemics, plagues, and disasters to disintegrate bodies in order to help fight the spread of disease."

My one quibble is having a pile of it out in the open in the wet British climate.  Quicklime, calcium oxide--CaO--reacts vigorously with water to produce slaked lime--calcium hydroxide--Ca(OH)₂--which has different properties.  One rainstorm and you don't have quicklime.

[Deems]

Ah, yes, Jonathan, that is the question:  "That is so funny, but what was Jasper up to while Durdles dreamed? He himself goes off to London's opium dens for his hyper-dreams."  That's exactly what I was wondering.  Why do we not accompany Jasper?  We are not meant to know yet; instead we get left with Durdles who dreams that he dropped the key to the crypt.  Was Jasper sussing out the possibilities of the crypt?  He is entirely too interested in the burial of the dead.

And Pat H points out that quick lime has been introduced.  We used to have that at Girl Scout Camp (in Maine).  Used it for the outhouses.  Every morning someone had the job of sprinkling some of the stuff down--we had a scoop and were warned not to touch it or breathe any in.  I wonder if kids today are allowed anywhere near the stuff.  Thanks for the information on quick lime, by the way.  It is odd that the pile is out in the open.  I wonder if Dickens understood that it would have to be in a container.

[JoanP]

" Imagine being dumped in a place like Cloisterham."  Jonathan

Good  morning - early morning as we're still on London time.   Must patiently wait for sleep rhythm to get back to normal.  This is a good quiet time to read your posts and catch up with this most interesting and informative discussion.  Isn't it funny how we read the same pages and notice different things?  I'm looking at some things in a different way after reading your posts.

Jonathan, your comment caught my eye - especially after my time in London at the Dickens'  Museum on Doughty St. where he lived in the early years of his marriage with his wife, baby son AND his sistering, Mary Hogarth.

Not to overwhelm with all that I learned in the museum, I'll try to be brief - I said I'd try.

I need to comment here that Dickens loved Cloisterham - which is the actual cathedral town of Rochester.  He lived near to Rochester when he was just a child - for several years starting at age five - before his father's downward spiral which landed him in the poor house...and Dickens was sent to the blacking factory.  It is said that these were the happiest years of his childhood - he found it serene and peaceful - so much so that his expressed wishes were to be buried in the cathedral burial ground!  Imagine that!  The same burial ground that he's writing about here in Cloisterham! (You can guess where he is buried, perhaps?  Not in Rochester...)

Though the London Museum on Doughty St. is considered THE Dickens' Museum - can you imagine how I felt when I learned that Rochester is only a twenty minute train ride from London?  And that Gad's Hill where Dickens was living at his death as he penned his last novel - only five miles from Rochester?
So little time - not enough for another day's excursion, but to think I could have walked on High Street seen the very cathedral, the Nuns' House, the burial yard, the crypt.  All there, just as we are reading the description of Cloisterham.  Missed opportunity.  But I did learn much to share with you at the museum in London.

This is the very house where Dickens lived as a twenty six year old  - with wife and 17 year old sister-in-law, Mary.  He was quite attached to Mary, scholars still argue today about their relationship.  She died in his arms at age 17 - and it is said that he never got over that - his name was on her lips as she died.  He wore her ring for the rest of his life.  Descriptions of her youth,  beauty, innocence and naievte were to appear in many of his novels.  I actually stood in the room where she lived - and died.

The  reason I visited the museum was because Matthew Pearl acknowledged the people here for contributing to his research his novel,  The Last Dickens.  I sure hope that you all will find your way into that discussion of his well researched book.  I just know you will enjoy it - and will most likely be hungry for more about Drood when we finish the published episodes.

Here's a photo of the four story house, the Dickens'  Museum.  (I'm sure that awning wasn't there in Dickens' time.)   I'll show you more photos of the interior at another time, but don't want to interrupt this discussion with too much...

[JoanP]

I share your frustration - it is difficult to stay in the "present" of the story - knowing that something is about to happen to young Edwin Drood - and that we will never know for sure what that will be. (or was!) Do you think Dickens had worked it out in his mind by the time that he died?   Perhaps this is the reason he writes in the present tense...to keep our minds off what will happen because he himself doesn't know.  

Don't you just love the characters?  I love "rosy, cheerful, good natured" Mr. Crisparkle - he is one who seems happy in Cloisterham, isn't he, Jonathan?  He lives with his mother - and clearly loves her.  I can still see him as "he took the pretty old lady's face between his boxing gloves and kisses it."  Though we do hear him say on another occasion that it is not good for man to live alone.    We see quite a number of men - and women, young and old, living alone in Cloisterham, don't we? Maybe that's why it seems so gloomy.

Mr. Crisparkle is indeed one of Rosa Bud's "resources"  as she now describes Helena. But is she?   I know Neville is described as a fierce and wild thing - but he does acknowledge his shortcomings and wishes to tame his anger.  Dickens usually pities characters such as Neville's, doesn't he? Those who are trying to improve themselves, pull themselves up from their shortcomings - as he himself did.   I don't see Dickens considering him as a murderer.  

But I find myself more interested in Helena right now ...is she all that she seems to be?  Rosa's new "resource"?  Do you trust her? Did you notice that "slumbering gleam of fire in her intense dark eyes," as she listens to Rosa.

Another thing - did you notice that Dickens capitalized "Monster"  as Helena tells Rosa that Jack didn't like being charged with being the Monster who had frightened her at the piano. Is Dickens is trying to cast Jasper in this light - as the Monster who is capable of anything.  A red herring?  Jasper might well be a druggie, who is fixated on his nephew's fiancee - (as Dickens was on his unattainable sister-in-law)  but does that mean he's capable of murder?
Of course he's also hanging around with Durdles down in the crypt.  What's that about?  How is this sudden interest be explained?  Did you notice Durdles point out the plot of Jasper's "own brother in law."  That got my attention.  What would the relation of Jasper's brother-in-law be to Edwin Drood - could it have been Edwin's father?  Were they all from Cloisterham?
 I hope that some of these myteries get cleared up in the finished episodes, don't you?
 
Almost caught up to the rest of you - need to read the next chapters about the key, the trip to London, the lime pit.  Where does the time go?  It's so easy to get caught up in these details!

[Deems]

WELCOME BACK, JOAN P!!  I hope you and Bruce had a wonderful trip, and I see that although your internal clock has not reset itself, you have enough strength to come in with such interesting information about seeing the Dickens' museum and the room where young Mary died.  And to think that you could have visited Rochester (Cloisterham) where Dickens had some happy days as a boy!  Not to mention walking on the streets.  I wonder if the Nuns' House is still there.  Certainly the Cathedral is.  And the crypt.

In the latter part of his life, Dickens did public readings and met the young actress, Ellen LawlessTernan, in 1857.  He fell in love with her, later bought her a house, took trips with her and so forth.  She is said to have been a strong and independent woman and from the time he knew her, Dickens' female characters  were more fully realized.  

As a young man, Dickens idealized women in life and in his books.  His sister-in-law, Mary, who was beautiful and innocent and--lucky for Dickens--who died young so that she never lost her youth and beauty, was idealized in a number of his books.  She was probably the model for Little Nell (who dies) and for at least part of Little Dorrit.  

Another interesting Dickens' sideline.   As a young man, he fell in love with Maria Beadnell and courted her for four years.  Her parents, however, disapproved, and Maria went on to marry another man.  Years later, in 1855, she contacted Dickens and they eventually met.  Dickens was much disillusioned that the young and beautiful (and thin) Maria had become a portly matron with a silly laugh.  For those of you who saw the recent production of Little Dorrit, she was the model for Flora Finching.

[pedln]

Good grief, Deems.  Do you have h____ week at the Academy every time there is a Monday holiday?  What a schedule.

Unfortunately, I have become too bogged down in other stuff and committments to finish Edwin Drood and to be a part of this discussion.  However, I have been enjoying the posts and will continue to follow them along.  Your comments, including the sidelines about Dickens' life, will be still be helpful for Matthew Pearl's book  (which I bought) and plan to discuss.

Welcome back, JoanP.

[Deems]

Pedln--Good to hear from you.  I'm sorry you won't be joining in the discussion, but if you find time to read the next few chapters, please feel free to offer your thoughts.  If you've been reading the posts, you have a pretty good idea of what has happened, and the plot is about to take off. 

[JoanP]

Hi Pedln...yes do, stick around , follow the posts and you will be ready for Matthew's book in October.  Maryal is right - the plot really takes off - now that we have figured out the roles of the major characters.  I feel Dickens is at his best with some of the minor characters too.  Edwin Drood is sort of sketchy - except for the fact that he is restless - and not even happy with his vocational choice.  Poor guy.

Maryal - a bit more on Dickens'  young love, Ellen Ternan. She was born in Rochester!  In Rochester, aka Cloisterham.  How about that!
Dickens was forty-five when he met the actress, Ellen Ternan, and she was eighteen. He became "passionately attached" to her, we're told, though it is unclear whether she felt the same for him.  This sounds to me more like his relationship with his young sister-in-law, Mary, doesn't it?  Or how about Jasper John's attachment for young Rosa Bud?

At the time of his death, Dickens had separated from his wife, Catherine - and as Maryal said, Ellen was living in a house in near-by Peckham.   Dickens remained in his home in Gads'  Hill with another of his wife's sister, Georgina, taking over the household management.  Some accounts say that Dickens has actually suffered the fatal stroke at Ellen's in Peckham, but was transported back to Gads'  Hill where he died.   The day he died, Dickens had been writing Drood with this pen, a gift from the actress.  I thought you would be interested in the pen, Maryal - can't you just see the words we are reading today being scratched out with this pen - in black ink, never blue!

Off to read this week's chapters...

[JoanP]

ps.  Maryal, yes the Nuns' House - called Eastgate in Rochester still stands.  It is used for wedding receptions today -

[PatH]

Goodness, JoanP, I'm glad you posted that picture of the Nuns' House.  It's much more imposing than I imagined it.

[marcie]

Thanks very much for sharing your first-hand research and photos, JoanP. They help to flesh out the background of the story.

I too think that it looks like Jasper drugged Neville and Edwin and was baiting Neville by talking about Edwin's accomplishments and opportunities. Then it looks like Jasper later drugged Durdles and took his key. Of course, these might be red herrings but Jasper does seem sinister.

I don't feel antipathy for Edwin. He seems immature but, on the whole, good-hearted to me. He does say awful things to Neville but may have been goaded by Jasper and may also feel badly that he doesn't seem to love Rosa as much as Neville appears to.

[Deems]

I love the photo of Nuns' House, Joan P.  Thank you.  I had imagined it in gray stone (because it's in a Cathedral town and because of Durdles who is always stone dusty I guess).  But Red, how interesting.  And it's also interesting to me that it is now used for wedding receptions.  Do you suppose the ghosts of all the young women from Edwin Drood attend the wedding receptions?

And I do love seeing the pen.  Can't imagine writing with it, but I love seeing it. 

And yes, Ellen (called Nell) Landless Ternan was from Rochester.  How Dickens must have been thinking of her when he used her home town and his as well as her middle name in the story.  Dickens left her 1000 pounds in his will, enough to assure that she would never have to work again.  She married and had children after his death, having subtracted some 15 years from her age.  You could get away with things like that before the internet.  

There's also Jasper's smoldering passion for Rosa--I wonder how much of Dickens' own passion we see reflected there.

[PatH]

Deems, two points from your last post are important for our story.  Dickens left Ellen Ternan 1000 pounds in his will, enough to assure that she would never have to work again.  Rosa, on coming of age, will be "in possession of a lump sum of money, rather exceeding Seventeen Hundred Pounds."  So she is well-off enough not to have to worry about money, and also to be an object of prey for someone like Jasper, who is dissatisfied with his lot.

Landless was Ellen Ternan's middle name.  Names are important to Dickens, and I had assumed that Landless referred to Neville and Helena's uncertain position in life.  But I find it hard to believe that Dickens would name a bad character after someone he loved, so maybe that is a clue about whether Neville and Helena are "good guys" or "bad guys".

[marcie]

Jonathan, that is a great line that you quoted about Dardles semi-conscious dream. I, too,  thought it was very funny.  'It is not much of a dream, considering the vast extent of the domains of dreamland, and their wonderful productions.'

Good points, Pat, to follow up Deems information about the use of the Landless name. Also, the potential for Rosa's inheritence to be at least part of a motive for seeking her hand.

[Deems]

Interesting, Pat H, that Dickens most likely wouldn't use a name of the woman he loved for characters who would end up being villains.  Also notice that her first name, Helena, is very like "Ellen." 

Jonathan, I too, chuckled at Dickens' remarks about dreams.  There a wonderful painting of him leaning back in an armchair, apparently dozing (I think) while above his head in a semicircle are many of his characters, dancing and cavorting around. 

[JoanP]

Interesting observation about the Landless name, PatH...  Actually, I think that Ellen's middle name was "Lawless" - sounds like something Dickens made up, as they were living outside the law, doesn't it?   Do you suppose that Dickens just liked the name because it indicated that Helena and  Neville were "landless"?   But the names Helena and Ellen are much the same, aren't they?

The painting you are talking about hangs in the Dickens'  museum, Maryal.  'Dickens' Dream' by Robert William Buss - Buss was the illustrator of Dickens'  first big success, Pickwick Papers.
I took this photo of it - it isn't all that clear, there seems to be a reflection from the flash on the glass - but I think you can make out the characters most colorful, most clearly defined - those near Dickens' head  - are all from the engravings in Drood!  Buss did the painting in 1870 AFTER Dickens' death - but Buss himself didn't live to complete his painting.  Maybe all of the characters would have been as vivid as those from Drood had he finished it.

[marcie]

What an interesting painting, Joan. I'm very glad you took these photos. What a coincidence that the artist didn't live to complete this painting that has figures from the unfinished  Mystery of Edwin Drood!

[marcie]

Before we leave Week 2, I want to follow up on PatH's response to Question 14: examples of foreshadowing in "A Night with Durdles."

Pat, you mentioned the lime pit. From reading mystery books and/or watching scary movies, I, too, thought at once that the lime pit will come up again.

Even before Jasper meets Durdles that night, Dickens says that Jasper puts on his hat and "goes softly out. Why does he move so softly tonight? No outward reason is apparent for it. Can there be any sympathetic reason crouching darkly within him."  Oh yes, I do think there is some dark motive in Jasper!

After they pass the lime pit, they see Mr. Crisparkle and Neville but Jasper "with a strange and sudden smile upon his face" stops Durdles so they won't be seen by the two. Then "Jasper folds his arms upon the top of the wall and, with his chin resting on them, watches Neville, as though his eye were at the trigger of a loaded rifle, and he had covered him, and were going to fire. A sense of destructive power is so expressed on his face, that even Durdles pauses in his munching and looks at him....." Then they hear just a few words of conversation between Crisparkle and Neville, including Crisparkle reminding Neville that he told Jasper that Neville would apologize to Drood. After they leave, Jasper "bursts into a fit of laughter." although Durdles sees nothing funny.  It doesn't seem to me that these behaviors could have some innocent explanation.

There is one exchange that puzzles me. Shortly after they begin walking around the crypts, Durdles says says that "this time last year" he heard "the ghost of one terrific shriek, which shriek was followed by the ghost of the howl of a dog; a long dismal woeful howl, such as a dog gives when a person's dead. That was my last Christmas Eve." Jasper gets very upset about this.  "'I thought you were another kind of man,' says Jasper, scornfully."   I am not sure what this is about. Does anyone else have any ideas?

[Deems]

Marcie:  "There is one exchange that puzzles me. Shortly after they begin walking around the crypts, Durdles says says that "this time last year" he heard "the ghost of one terrific shriek, which shriek was followed by the ghost of the howl of a dog; a long dismal woeful howl, such as a dog gives when a person's dead. That was my last Christmas Eve." Jasper gets very upset about this.  "'I thought you were another kind of man,' says Jasper, scornfully."   I am not sure what this is about. Does anyone else have any ideas?"

I'll take a stab at it.  Durdles' dream is another bit of foreshadowing.  He has never seen a ghost, but he had one experience, the previous Christmas, where he heard shrieks and howls.  Jasper's response indicates that he didn't think that Durdles was the superstitious sort but a more down-to-earth man.  Since Edwin is due home for Christmas, perhaps something will happen this Christmas Eve. 

But we need to read this week's chapters to find out.

Joan P--Yes!  That's the painting exactly, and I'm glad you saw it.  I notice that the characters from his older works are done in a lighter tone while those from Drood are darker, indicating that it was the most recent work.  I saw that painting years ago in England and have always remembered it.  Thank you.

[PatH]

Deems, I agree about Durdles' dream.  It's prophetic, occurring on Christmas Eve, exactly a year before the dinner with Neville, Jasper, and Drood.  There are some other bits of foreshadowing, too.  When Jasper arrives at Durdles' house, there are two journeymen's saws sticking up, and Dickens imagines them cutting out the next two gravestones: "Curious to make a guess at the two--or say one of the two!"  After Durdles and Jasper overhear Neville assuring Mr. Crisparkle of his good behavior at the dinner, Jasper bursts into a prolonged fit of laughter.  This installment ended with the end of this chapter, so Dickens' readers had plenty of time to wonder about all this.

[Deems]

Thanks for the further foreshadowing, Pat H, as well as for pointing out that the installment ended with this chapter and that the readers had a good deal of time to worry about what all these signs might mean.  Dickens may have begun the novel with a difficult chapter, one that might turn readers off, but he sees always careful to end an installment in such a way that the reader wants to know more.

And Joan P, I've been, I think, calling the mistress, Ellen Landless Ternan, but you are correct--she was Ellen Lawless Ternan.  I transposed the W and the DL.  I'm glad to have this error corrected.  Dickens changes both names, just a little--Ellen > Helena and Lawless > Landless, and yes, I like the suggestion that they are not in possession of any land as well as the fact that having lived in Ceylon, they are also "landless" in the sense of not growing up in England, their homeland. 

Please take note of our new illustration by Samuel Luke Fildes, Dickens' last illustrator, a young man with whom he worked closely (no wonder the illustrations are so accurate).  It's entitled "Mr. Grewgious has his suspicions" and goes with the end of Chapter 15, "Impeached."  The body--or as I like to think of it the pile of clothes on the floor--is John Jasper who has collapsed.  I also like the rendering of Grewgious to whom I have taken a special liking.  He does look rather "angular" in the illustration.

[JoanP]

Before moving on, I just want to recognize another sweet guy - Mr. Grewgious. I share your feelings for this man, Maryal.  Have you counted the times that he states he is an "Angular man?" It took a while to understand that he is trying to convince us, (or himself), that he is a hard, unemotional man - who has had no "soft experiences."
Was it Rosa's mother that he loved?  I don't believe for a minute that he is an unfeeling  man of cold,  sharp edges, do you?  As he describes to Edwin what he thinks it  means to be in love, he makes Edwin conscious of the fact that he himself doesn't fit that description. Edwin feebly offers -  "a lover may not share all that he feels." That can be taken two ways, can't it?  How did you understand what he said?

[JoanP]

I'm almost with you - just finished Chapter XII, Jasper spending the night with Durdles. I'll go look at the illustration now...

Can anyone explain to me what the two are doing in the crypt at night?  I understand that Jasper is up to no good.  I thought I understood that Durdles liked to hang out there in the dark by himself - and drink.  But what is he really doing - disinterring whole families of decomposing corpses?
Why?   Is this a real job that he has, working for the Cathedral?

I'm another who does not  understand what happened with the key during Durdles' dream.  I thought at first that Jasper wanted to steal it as Durdles slept.  But by the end of the dream it was back in his possession.  Then I thought that Jasper had substituted the key with another, but Durdles had no problem unlocking the crypt when they went out. Durdles was sleeping for quite a while.  Did Jasper have time to fashion another as he slept?  Do you think we'll ever know what Dickens was planning with this incident?  Can we assume that Jasper now has a key to the crypt?


Did you read the footnote about the lime pit - pretty funny.  It says that the belief that quick line promotes rapid decomposition of corpses was erroneous.  In fact it acts as a preservative.  But this is fiction and since Dickens shares the common misapprehension of lime's corrosive ability, we'll have to accept this bit of information as part of Jasper's evil scheming.

Marcie, from the way that Jasper looks at him with that destructive expression on his , does it seem to you that Jasper hates Neville as much as he hates Edwin? Are we to fear that he plans to do away with both of them?  Maybe Jasper bursts into the fit of laughter as he realizes he can stage Edwin's death to make it appear that Neville did it - and that will be the end of both of his rivals.

Maryal, I picked up on the reference to the two gravestones as well.  I think Jasper is planning two deaths.

All the talk of blood, death, ghosts, shrieks and howls mesh with the references to MacBeth which seem to be coming more frequently now.  Jasper seems to be exhibiting absolutely no qualms of conscious as he contemplates death - (is he contemplating death, or is Dickens making it seem so?)  He doesn't foresee any ghosts keeping him awake at night - or blood on his little white hands that will never come clean.  He doesn''t believe in ghosts.  Doesn't anticipate sleepless nights.    Maybe that's why he gets upset at Durdles who says he doesn't believe in ghosts either, but is really shattered at the shrieks and howls.

[Deems]

Joan P:  "I'm another who does not  understand what happened with the key during Durdles' dream.  I thought at first that Jasper wanted to steal it as Durdles slept.  But by the end of the dream it was back in his possession.  Then I thought that Jasper had substituted the key with another, but Durdles had no problem unlocking the crypt when they went out. Durdles was sleeping for quite a while.  Did Jasper have time to fashion another as he slept?  Do you think we'll ever know what Dickens was planning with this incident?  Can we assume that Jasper now has a key to the crypt?"

We're never going to find out since the novel was only half written, but I have a theory about the key.  Durdles has no idea how long he has been asleep--it seems like a short nap--and I don't think we know exactly when they set off on the expedition (someone check that, maybe we do), but when he wakes he is amazed that it is 2:00 AM.  If we assume that he's been asleep more than an hour, Jasper has plenty of time to take the key to the crypt, make a wax mold of it (the key to be made later) and return the key to Durdles.

Heaven only knows what else Jasper is doing while Durdles is passed out.  I suspect--again--that the bottle has been doctored with a little opium since that seems to be Jasper's drug of choice.  Maybe Jasper has gone to the crypt looking (by tapping with the hammer as Durdles taught him) for a space that seems to be empty, or one that has a corpse in it that has moldered away?

Maybe the whole key in wax impression isn't necessary after all since it would not be difficult to get the key away from Durdles again when it is needed (when body is to be buried).

[Jonathan]

What a curious scene in the illustration at the top of the page, with Jasper on the floor, after hearing that Rosa and Ned have split up. This seems like unlikely behavior on the part of a diabolical man with evil schemes running through his head. Going to pieces like that. Of course Jasper has always gone out of his way, or exaggerated his concerns about his nephew's welfare. I see some unusual psychology here that would puzzle a Freud or a Dostoyevsky. A criminal mind with sexual hang-ups?

I find the 'large black scarf of strong close-woven silk, slung loosely round his (Jasper's) neck' a most ominous foreshadowing, to add to those already mentioned. It comes up in Chap 14. On the following page we hear about  the 'knitted  and stern' face as Jasper 'pulls  off that great black scarf and hangs it in a loop upon his arm' before entering his digs to meet with Neville and Ned. Strang man.

Of course there was also the knife in the opening chapter that Jasper made a note of.

[PatH]

We may never find out all that's happening in that scene, but it's wonderful theater: the spooky Cathedral, the crypt, dark, with its lanes of moonlight, starting up steps to the tower in total darkness (something I sure wouldn't care to try), looking down at the nave and straight out at the angels' heads on the corbelled roof, up and up to the top where the town is laid out in the moonlight.

There's comic relief, too.  "As aeronauts lighten the load they carry, when they wish to rise, similarly Durdles has lightened the wicker bottle in coming up."  By now he's pretty incapable.  Then: "And as aeronauts make themselves heavier when they wish to descend, similarly Durdles charges himself with more liquid from the wicker bottle that he may come down the better."

Then asleep in the crypt, and the surreal touch of the lanes of light shifting.

I couldn't spot a reference to just when they started the expedition, but since there were still people about, I'm guessing that Durdles was asleep several hours.

[PatH]

Jonathan, you were posting while I was writing about chapter 12.

I can think of a very good explanation for Jasper fainting like that.  If he has indeed done away with Drood, his motive has to be so he can marry Rosa.  He wants her fortune, and he wants to dominate her personally (I don't call it love, because it doesn't look like it to me, but he wants to possess her).  If the engagement has been broken, Jasper could just court Rosa, without resorting to crime.

The scarf puzzled me.

[PatH]

Reading the book this way, one section at a time, using self-control not to read ahead, makes me appreciate what it was like for Dickens fans to read it in installments.  As you point out, Deems, he's careful to have a cliffhanger each time.  Chapter 4 isn't much of one, we've introduced Mr. Sapsea and Durdles, but chapter 8 is "Daggers Drawn", ending with Drood insulting Neville unforgivably, violence barely averted.  Chapter 12 is the night with Durdles, the spooky scene in the Cathedral.  In deference to those who haven't read up to schedule, I'll only say that in chapter 16 there is an increase in dramatic tension.

[serenesheila]

I am continuing to read our book.  Up to chapter 12, at this point.  I find the language that Dickens uses is a bit too flower-y for me.  Once I finish the book, I plan to reread it.  There are so many characters, that I am almost totally confused about who is who.  From now on I plan to make a list of the characters in any book I read.

In reading the posts I find quite a bit of clarification.  Which I appreciate.  At this point I do not like Neville.  But, I do feel sad that he has had such a difficult life.  I was amused by how many times Rosa's guardian called himself, awkward.  It also intrests me at how often Dickens refers to Rosa as "little".

This Wednesday, the International History Channel is playing a bio of Charles Dickens.   In my area is is showing at 5:00 a.m.  I plan to record it.

Sheila

[JoanP]

Sounds like a good idea - keeping a list, Sheila.  Right now, if you are up to Chapter 12, I think you're golden.  Congratulations! Things will pick up now! By the way, where do you live.  I'd like to tune in to the International History channel myself.

I'm thinking too of  Dickens' followers, and there were many, waiting for the next installment, having been left  cliffhanging in the preceding issue.  Really, they were much better off than we are, don't you think?  They could sit back,  confident in  Dickens' storytelling, knowing they were in good hands as he tossed out little tidbits, and then circled around to toss out more of an explanation in the next edition.  They had no clue how Dickens would end his story - but they knew they were in for a treat before it was all over.
 I have to admit - knowledge of the fact that we will never know what he intended  - is driving me crazy!  I'm trying, I really am, to stay in the present installment...just as the 19th century audience did.  But just as I sit back and get comfy with Dickens'  writing, I remember what is coming - or not coming...

Pat, the black silk scarf - Dickens makes sure to note that it is one that he never wore before.  Are we to consider that Edwin has been strangled?  I really don't believe that Dickens would do that - but he seems to be suggesting it, doesn't he?  Poor Neville!  He doesn't have a chance, even though there is no evidence...except that he has an un-English complexion.   The mayor, Sapsea is ready to lock him up for that alone!



In the same chapter, Dickens is building a case to use against Uncle Jasper - such as the old opium smoking hag who speaks of the name "Ned" - a name that only Jasper calls his nephew.  Do you think she'll be a witness - if there has been a crime, if there is a body, if there is a trial?  Edwin's watch is significant too, isn't it?  Can't you see Dickens working out all these details?  It must have been difficult writing like this.  If the novel had been written first, and then divided into published installments, we wouldn't in this situation.  I keep hoping that an outline or something will turn up in someone's papers...but  140 years have gone by - and nothing has turned up.