Non-Fiction

[JoanK]

TO NONFICTION BOOK TALK

What are you reading?  Autobiographies, biographies, history, politics?

Tell us about the book; the good and the bad of it. 

Let's talk books!

Discussion Leader: HaroldArnold

Mabel:" growing up in the 40's he remembers only A & W Root Beer and Howard Johnson as chain restaurants." I'm trying to remember. In Washington, we had a chin called "Hot Shoppes" but I think it was local.

I can remember traveling in the 50s and stopping at an endless chain of Howard Johnsons.

[JoanK]

What aboy "Little Taverns"? Were they national? They had tiny hambergers, 35 Cents each, ot three for a dollar.

[Jonathan]

Wasn't it fun to stop at an A & W Drive-In, a way-back-when, with ones date, for a root beer. Watching American Graffiti always brings that time back for me. Wasn't it the best of times. Even the thirties. We were young then.

I must have several of Emil Ludwig's biographies in the house. I'm certain of his Bismarck, the 19C German statesman. I also have several of Stefan Zweig's books. He was so popular. The one I enjoyed was his biography of Joseph Fouche, Napoleon's police chief. Fouche was a very adroit politician, serving in various capacities throughout that stormy period in French history. A political surviver par excellence.

Not long ago my newspaper carried an article regarding Margaret MacMillan, the author of PARIS 1919, which we had such a good discussion on. She talks about her current reading. I saved the newspaper clipping, so I can now quote it:

Since I am researching a book on the First World War, I have been trying to read  a lot about the world that was destroyed by that terrible conflict. Stefan Zweig's  wonderful memoir Years of Yesterday summons up that lost world of Mitteleuropa, the complacent bourgeoisie and the apparently stable Austro-Hungarian Empire - what he called the Golden Age of Security. It is fascinating and awful because we know what is going to happen. Zweig lived to see the catastrophe of the war and the chaos that followed. As a Jew, he had to flee when the Nazis took over Austria. He finished his memoir in 1942 and, apparently unable to bear the destruction of Europe any longer, committed suicide.

Zweig's book, The World of Yesterday, does look like a good read. And he mentions his Fouche:

My books had already enjoyed  the honor of being widely read by the National Socialists (the Nazis); it had been the Fouche in particular which as an example of political unscrupuousness they had studied and discussed repeatedly.

What a bitter irony.

[mabel1015j]

Joan, i do remember hearing the name Hot Shoppe but i can't remember being in one. I never heard of Little Taverns. Probably the first Howard Johnsons' i was in were on the Pa turnpike, where every restsurant was a HJ.

We didn't have an A&W drive-in in our town, but i worked at a "drive-in" just like that, absent roller skates, altho i was a great skater and could have done that. I lived, on Fri nights, at a roller skating rink at the bottom of my street from jr high until i began to go to high schl football and basketball  games on Fri nights. Ironically, working at the drive-in was considered a very good and very respectable job in my town, because the owner was a very respected man in the community and hired the dgts of his Rotary croonies, drs, lawyers,etc. to work there. I got hired only bcs my brother worked with the owner's father-in-law. It was really the best paying place for high schl and college girls to work bsc the tips were great. Yes,
hamburgers were 35 cents and the best thing on the menu was a pizza burger and a coffee milk shake! YUM!

Jean

[Babi]

Pizzza burger and coffee milkshake?  Why aren't those still on the menus? Sounds good (at least
if you're a coffee drinker).  You should suggest them to your favorite food chain, JEAN.  Maybe
they'll bring them back.
  I am slowly working my way through Michael Grant's selections from classical historians. I
read him with my breakfast.  An historian I had never heard of,  by the name of Sallust, said
something that made me smile. I don't have it here with me, but basically he said that it was
hard writing history.  If he wrote of men's faults and crimes, he would be accused of envy.  If
he praised their accomplishments and character, he found that people would believe it to the
extent of what they felt they themselves could do and be.  More than that they were sure must
be an exaggeration. 

[roshanarose]

I remember when I visited Philadelphia, I was solo (sola Spanish).  ex Hub was on a relly rally and we agreed that I should be spared, and choose where I wanted to meet him when he had completed his rounds of rellies.  Sounds cynical, I know.  But I had travelled a bloody long way and was determined that I was going to do what I wanted to do.  He understood.  Anyway, I stayed at this gorgeous B&B on Chestnut Street.  I ventured downstairs to visit the small bistro there and ordered Potato skins and a Margarita.  Sacre Bleu!  The potato skins arrived on a platter large enough to feed three battalions, and the Margarita was contained in a large jug.  I asked the waiter if this was a single serve.  He said "Yes.  Ma'am.  Maybe you would like a bigger serve."  That night I slept like a baby.  I love the way Americans eat (and drink).  I seriously do!

[Frybabe]

I  don't know what a relly rally is, but I assume it is some kind of road race? When I was in high school, road rallies, were all the rage around here among MGB and Austin Martin owners

[mabel1015j]

Speaking of Napoleon   , the History Intern'l channel is showing a story of a mass grave of Napoleon's soldiers found in Lithuanuia. I had no sense of N being in L! That seems so far northwest of where i pictured his armies being. Apparently the deaths occurred on the retreat from Moscow. Have to take a look at a map.......

Yes, explain rellie rally, it's not in our lexicon........   and yes Philadelphia is known for it's scumputous, and lot's of,food. We eat in Philly about once a month. But, of course, the fancier and more expensive the restaurant, the less food you get. Funny how that works.....jean

[roshanarose]

I have many happy memories of the States.

Having a Rellie Rally is actually when one travels a long distance to visit far flung relatives.  Nothing to do with cars    My ex was born in Fort Ord in California, both parents were born in the States.  So he visits all the rellies about every two years.  He hasn't done the rally for a while, as he is now the proud father of girl triplets.  In the past the rellie rally took place at Cape May.  Has anyone been there?

[Frybabe]

I've been to Cape May, but we were just driving through. I don't remember where we were staying unless it was Stone Harbor before it got popular. I loved all the brightly colored Victorian gingerbread houses at Cape May.

[mabel1015j]

Cape May - yes, i leave about an hour and a half from there. My best friend's dgt got married in the back yard of one of the victorians and then had a dinner inside, a small wedding, abt 25 people at the dinner. The wedding party had pics taken at the beach. My fr iend grew up "next door" to Cape May". Thehouses are lovely, but don't go there in the height of the summer, the traffic and parking are horrible. Much more fun in the Spring or Fall and they do a Victorian Christmas which is probably lovely, but also crowed.....jean

[JoanK]

There is a wildlife sanctuary there which is famous for migrsting birds. I've never been there, but would love to go.

[bellemere]

For World War I history, start with Barbara Tuchman's The Guns of August!  I think one of her previous books, too the Proud Tower, gives a picture with anecdotal chapters of the pre-war civilzation in Western Europe. di you know that the Kaiser, the Czar of Russia, and the King of England were first cousins?  Unbelievable.

[ANNIE]

Were they not married to Queen Victoria's sons or daughters?? I think so.

[mabel1015j]

Two other books i like that relate to bellmere's comment: Tuchman's A Distant Mirror which is about 14th century Europe, a terrible century for Europe, Weather-wise and other-wise, but Tuchman makes it very readable in her famous easy style; and Theo Aronson's Grandmama of Europe about all those descendant's of Queen Victoria, including those cousins who were fighting each other in WWI. It is amazing how many children and grandchildren of hers were in royal families in almost all the countries of Europe and very interesting to read about.......jean 

[ANNIE]

Jean,
Wasn't it her children who passed on the bleeding gene?  And didn't the Czar of Russia's son have that disorder and also the King of Spain's son, as I recall??

[mabel1015j]

Yes, Annie, it came from herbeloved Albert's Coburg branch.......here's a good one page synopsis of the story.

http://www.sciencecases.org/hemo/hemo.asp

Jean

[ANNIE]

Thanks for the link, Jean.  While I was reading it, I discovered that the Coburg connection comes from Queen Victoria and is not the cause of hemophilia in her family.  Something to do with a mutation in her or in her father's sperm might have caused it. That's quite interesting how it spread throughout Europe.  I wonder if its still prevalent today.
On that link is a story of a Eugene Romanov who claimed to be the ggrandson of Czar Nicholas in 1995.  Said he was the grandson of Alexandria whose body was never found after the execution of her family in 1917. He also had the family name plus hemophilia.

[mabel1015j]

Your right Annie, i misread that, when i saw Coburg, my mind went to Germany and then to Albert..........senior moment.........

Did those of you who read Audubon's bio w/ us a few yrs ago see that his "picture book" sold for $10 million yesterday? How ironic considering the life he and his family lived, most of the time in poverty.......jean

[JoanK]

Ironic is right. I keep remembering his poor wife.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thinking ahead a bit (beyond 'tis the season and all that) into February, Harold and I are proposing a discussion of a nonfiction book; it's been awhile hasn't it?  And considering that Harold lives and breathes Texas and has all his life (his SeniorLearn and Seniornet life anyway), is a docent at two museums in Texas and has been such a grand DL on so many occasions in our past, I jumped up and down when he suggested a book about the Texas Plains Indians, particularly when I read the advanced praise:

"Empire of the Summer Moon is many things-a thrilling account of the Texas frontier in the nineteenth century, a vivid description of the Comanche nation, a fascinating portrat of Cynthia Ann Parker and her son, the mysterious, magnificent Quanah-but most of all it is a ripping good read." - Jake Silverstein, editor, Texas Monthly

Plan to join us  - you will discover some "ripping fierce Indians."

[maryz]

I'm reading Empire of the Summer Moon - my family is all from Texas, and we grew up in Houston.  I'm surely learning some new stuff from this book.

[mabel1015j]

Sounds like a good one......jean

[Jonathan]

Sounds good to me too. With winter coming on up here in the north, it's a great prospect to spend February in Texas. Especially after those scenes in last night's movie. Stone's W. What an entertaining movie on the Bush presidency. With his Kennedy Friday night, and his Nixon Saturday night, the White House is beginning to seem like home. I was struck by how much time Nixon and Bush spent in prayer. Genuinely. Sincerely.

[mabel1015j]

Are you going thru movies on all the presidents Jonathan!..............jean

[Ella Gibbons]

OH, GOOD!  We have a few interested in wild, fierce Indians.

JONATHAN, those Comanches were up your way also.  When we get deep into the discussion, of IF WE DO, or WHEN we do, we'll put some maps up as to just where all their wanderings took them.  They were a nomadic tribe, not agricultural, and the buffalo were their sustennce, so, of course......

The Indian way of life has some attractions, don't you think? 

Buffalo have shown up occasionally in our city, Columbus, Ohio.  When they built an Annheiser Busch beer plant some years go, they installed buffalo grazing in the pasture land around them.  I wondered if the buffalo got drunk on fumes.

It brought some interested folks to gaze.  I think our zoo has some, and I know I've seen them elsewhere.  Poor end to some magnificent beasts, showing up as advertisements.

[Ella Gibbons]

My library sends recommended books every so often to my email, isn't it wonderful?  You can name the categroy you want to receive; I have several, but this came this morning.  I thought some of you might have read them?

Pearl Buck in China : journey to The good earth - Hilary Spurling

The Man Who Loved China: The Fantastic Story of the Eccentric Scientist Who Unlocked the Mysteries of the Middle Kingdom - by Simon Winchester

Oracle Bones: A Journey Between China's Past and Present - by Peter Hessler

Factory Girls: From Village to City in a Changing China - by Leslie T. Chang

A nation rising : untold tales of flawed founders, fallen heroes, and forgotten fighters from America's hidden history - Kenneth C. Davis

The Envoy: The Epic Rescue of the Last Jews of Europe in the Desperate Closing Months of World War II - by Alex Kershaw

Caesars' wives : sex, power, and politics in the Roman Empire - Annelise Freisenbruch

Tories : fighting for the king in America's first civil war - Thomas B. Allen

[JoanK]

My goodnes, they all sound interesting.

[maryz]

If you're interested in China today, I can highly recommend China Road by Rob Gifford.  I read it a year or so ago, and loved it.

[roshanarose]

Ella - Some good books there.  I am a great fan of Simon Winchester.  He could write on the back of a postage stamp and it would still be a bestseller.  Thanks for the list.

[joangrimes]

Ella,
Thanks for that list of books...Joan Grimes

[serenesheila]

I am reading, and very much enjoying:  "American Caesars" by Nigel Hamilton.  He writes about each President, from FDR, through George W. Bush.  I am currently in the middle of the section on LBJ.  The author writes of the early life of each, then the time they are President, and ffinally their finally the years out of office.

IMO, both Democrats and Republicans, will find the book informative.  Both positive and negative things are covered, about each of them.  I highly reccomend this book of non fiction.

Sheila 

[bellemere]

I am intermittently reading again, The March of Folly by Barbara Tuchman.  Each chapter deals with a war that never had to happen.  In the chapter on Viet Nam, the various statements of government officials make you swear you are reading about today's Afghanistan.

[ginny]

Don't leave out the Schiff Cleopatra, one of the top 10 books of the year by Stacy Schiff, who is a Pulitzer Prize winner, it's quite eye opening and good, actually. The ancients are suddenly HOT.

[marjifay]

Thanks Ella, Sheila, Bellemere and Ginny for your recommendatons.  And Mary Z, I also really liked China Road by Bob Gifford.

One of the more interesting nonfiction books I read this year was CAPTIVE by Jere Van Dyk.  About a journalist who wanted to write a book about the Taliban, but was captured by them.  Besides the very gripping story, you learn much about the Pashtun, the largest ethnic group in Afganistan and Pakistan.  The British divided these millions of people when they drew the border between the two countries. 

Marj

[Ella Gibbons]

MARJ, is that the way it was?  Years ago we discussed Gandhi's autobiography (I'll look it up and bring it here if we have it) and as I remember the partition of Pakistan and India it was not the British but the Pakistanis who drew away from India because of religion.  I remember it broke Ghandi's heart.  Now I must look it all up!  Later.......

[Ella Gibbons]

I don't have time to read it all this morning; going out to lunch with a neighbor and my visiting sister, but here is our discussion of Gandhi's book:

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Gandhi.htm

And there are numerous articles on the partition of India which all look very interesting.  I would like to read up on it again, I would think it all would directly affect the future of America.  Just one

http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/itihas/partition.htm:

[Ella Gibbons]

Every time I happen on the word - PUNJAB - something clicks in my mind.  It has to do with LITTLE ORPHAN ANNIE and her Daddy Warbucks, which I adored when I was small.   Were they books?   Was it just a comic strip?  I know the musical ANNIE, and the song, TOMORROW, TOMORROW, (which I also loved), but what of that word PUNJAB?  Was Daddy Warbucks home from there?  I don't know!

[maryz]

Daddy Warbucks' valet ("man") was named Punjab, I think - a very tall man who wore a turban.  Click here.

[marjifay]

Ella said (regarding the splitting of the Pastun people into Pakistan and Afghanistan by the British):

"MARJ, is that the way it was?  Years ago we discussed Gandhi's autobiography (I'll look it up and bring it here if we have it) and as I remember the partition of Pakistan and India it was not the British but the Pakistanis who drew away from India because of religion.  I remember it broke Ghandi's heart.  Now I must look it all up!  Later......."
 
Ellla, I found the following in Wikipedia, and it looks as if the British did have quite a bit to do with splitting the Pastun people into two different countries:

"The Durand Line refers to the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, which is poorly marked and approximately 2,640 kilometers (1,610 miles) long. It was established after the 1893 Durand Line Agreement between the Government of colonial British India and Afghan Amir Abdur Rahman Khan for fixing the limit of their respective spheres of influence. It is named after Henry Mortimer Durand, the Foreign Secretary of British India at the time. The single-page agreement which contains seven short articles was signed by H. M. Durand and Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, agreeing not to exercise interference beyond the frontier line between Afghanistan and what was then colonial British India (now Pakistan).  A joint British-Afghan demarcation survey took place starting from 1894, covering some 800 miles of the border.  The resulting Durand Line established the "Great Game" buffer zone between British and Russian interests in the region.  This poorly marked border cuts through the Pashtun tribal area and lies in one of the most dangerous places in the world.  Although shown on most maps as the western international border of Pakistan, it is unrecognized by Afghanistan.  There was no national consensus made in Afghanistan, and a majority of the population were unaware that their native land was planned to be split in half permanently.  The original 1893 Durand Line Agreement was written in English, with translated copies in Dari or Pashto language. It is believed however that only the English version was actually signed by Amir Abdur Rahman Khan, a language which he could not read or understand."

My comment:  Perhaps that's why the U.S. is having so much trouble trying to keep Pakistan from allowing the Taliban to come over into Pakistan to resupply themselves and then move back to Afghanistan to fight the Americans there.  The people are all related.
Just counsins helping cousins.

Marj