Non-Fiction

[serenesheila]

TO NONFICTION BOOK TALK

What are you reading?  Autobiographies, biographies, history, politics?

Tell us about the book; the good and the bad of it. 

Let's talk books!

Discussion Leader: HaroldArnold

Hi, HAROLD.  I think that I am reading just the book.  It is called "Tangeled Web".  It is about many of the well known people who have commited fraud.  Including:  Bernie Madoff, Martha Steward, and Scooter Libby.  I am finding it interesting.  

Of course you may be interested only in biographies about Madoff.  I am fascinated by all of the information, and details of how celebrities think that they can get away with perjury.  One of the points that this author makes is that truth telling is one of the primary foundations unpon which our judicial system depends.  He makes a point that the multitude of examples of high level perjury is eroding our system of justice.

Sheila

[Frybabe]

While having my tea this morning, cat on lap and not wanting to disturb same to get the one of the books already started, I picked up Martin Gardner's The Night is Large which is a collection of essays dating from 1938 to 1995. As I read the opening intro to Part 1, I discovered that Mr. Gardner was not a mathematician as I supposed. He was a writer with a degree in philosophy. Yes, I know mathematics actually began in ancient philosophy. I just always assumed he was a mathematician because I used to do some of his mathematical puzzles and avidly read his columns in Scientific American.

[Frybabe]

Oh Dear, I looked up Languedoc, France and the Cathars while reading a detective fiction. My mistake. Now I have several more books on my list to buy/read. It appears that modern historians (general consensus?) are taking the view that the Cathars were actually closer to early Christian beliefs than the Catholic Church at the time. They were gaining in popularity and, of course, the Catholic Church could not have that. The French king(s) eventually took over the crusade (Albigensian). Interesting website about the Cathars, below, has a link to a book list including one by Zoe Oldenburg and a translated 13th century poem which tells of key events before, during and after the Albigensian Crusade.

[roshanarose]

Frybabe - Looking for that link

[Babi]

 I regretfully observe that once the Church gained a position of power and
influence, it was more invested in preserving that than their early Christian
beliefs.  And, of course, knocking down any potential rivals and critics.

[Frybabe]

Roshanarose, your wish is my command. I bookmarked it for further "study". Near the bottom of the page is a link to recommended books, and below that more links to further info. The article itself has many hyperlinks you can click on too. Nice site.
http://www.cathar.info/

[BarbStAubrey]

I think we have to put some of this church stuff in context - we forget that the church and the seat of government of many of these offending nations were one and the same - closer than as if the church was Secretary of State or Attorney General - more like co-King -

As today if a group threatens our government we watch and jail them just like - during the Viet Nam protests in May 1971, 1,146 people were arrested on the Capitol grounds trying to shut down Congress. This brought the total arrested during the protest to over 12,000.

Abbie Hoffman was arrested on charges of interstate travel to incite a riot and assaulting a police officer.

166 people, many of them seminarians, were arrested in Harrisburg, PA for encircling the Federal Courthouse with a chain, to protest the trial of the Harrisburg Seven

Others were jailed.

Recently various Muslims who have shown they were attempting to bring harm to the  American people - granted we are one of the few nations that if you speak against the nation or leaders in the government that is not a crime -

Those like the Cathars were not just about promoting a religious viewpoint - they were in conflict with the official legal Religion just as if Christians or Muslims today tried to influence the citizens to ignore the laws of Israel by promoting their religions in a nation with a constitution that has a state religion. The offense is not just a religious offense - it is a national offense.

I am not trying to justify the reaction by the Church only putting it in context we too easily loose context that the church is two - the religious practices and the government that comes about in any large organized group of people that  includes laws called canons in the RC church. Look at the art work and  you see next to most Kings is a member of the clergy as part of the governing body - even England after the Reformation had clergy helping to run the show and the law of the land included a state religion that included the rules within that state religion and anyone braking those rules was an enemy of the state.

[mabel1015j]

Good points, Barbara

[roshanarose]

Barb - Intelligent observation there.

Frybabe - I know you enjoy little bits of Greek trivia (well I hope you do ) so here goes.  The word Cathar probably comes from the Greek word katharo which mean "I clean/or cleanse".  It can also mean "to purify" and I think the name Katherine comes from the same source.

Haven't looked at the link yet, but intend to give it my full attention soon.  Thanks!

[BarbStAubrey]

here is a good link about the origination of the Cathar's
http://www.cathar.info/1204_origins.htm

This is another good link that explains the various views of Jesus - for over 1400 years there was a major problem and discussion with many attempts to nail down if Jesus was man or God or both - there are major shifts of belief if Jesus was God - then his crucifixion has little meaning - and if he was man he was only a prophet - it was  not till 1560 something at the Council of Trent that the RC Church puts this issue into canon law -
http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/heresies.html

There were many attempts through out the earlier 1400 year history that not only condemned certain bibles and groups because of their view that Jesus was either God or Man but not both and this major contradiction in viewpoint was instrumental in breaking apart the 5 original bishopries so that in the eleventh century we have the Eastern Orthodox and the Roman bishopry.  

The original five being, Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, Damascus and Rome - Jerusalem was about destroyed leaving only Rome who believed in Jesus as the son of God doctrine.

[JoanK]

FRY: Another Martin Gardner fan!! I used to love his puzzles! The Night is Large isn't available on Kindle, but I found a used one for $5 plus shipping. Also ordered a book of his mathematical puzzles. You have a great way of suggesting good books!

[Frybabe]

Thanks, Joan.

In seventh grade, I was the only girl in the Mathematics Club. It almost frightens me how poorly I did this last semester in accounting. Bs and Cs, but I used to be an A, A+ student. Oh, it is even worse than that. To me A was and always will be 93-100, etc., not this 90-100 business grading they have now. So they dummied down the grading and it still didn't help. The formulas just do not want to stick with me anymore. Huge comedown. Not good for my ego at all.  

That's what I get for not keeping up with math puzzles. 

[Jonathan]

My condolences, Frybabe, regarding your bruised ego.    These tests, as the years go by, become a real catharsis. I refuse all examinations now. I'm resting on my laurels of long ago. But, alas, even they are beginning to look a little wilted and woebegone.

The Zoe Oldenburg book is a great piece of medieval history. I read it long ago. I'm assuming it's Massacre At Montsegur. It was the time of great Crusades, and the Albigensians fell victim to one. The Church was practically all-powerful, and rich. Just now I'm into a history of the Borgias. For them the Church was a cake which they divided amongst themselves.

[Frybabe]

Thanks Jonathan. Yes, you made the correct assumption.

I am a fair way into my 1904 book about Lucretia. So far it has been something of a who's who and a relating of events surrounding L. My author is sticking pretty much to documents such as registered marriages, legal documents, personal and official letters, and other such documents supposedly authentic. There isn't a whole lot specific to L just yet. I am already getting the impression, though, that Caesar was a real piece of work. I don't know if he was particularly cunning or a bully of sorts, but early on he seems to have a lot of people eating out of his hand so to speak.

[roshanarose]

Jonathan - You wrote "My condolences, Frybabe, regarding your bruised ego.    These tests, as the years go by, become a real catharsis. I refuse all examinations now. I'm resting on my laurels of long ago. But, alas, even they are beginning to look a little wilted and woebegone."

Catharsis is also derived from katharo in Greek.  κάθαρω.  Sorry - sometimes I just can't help it.  My brain is permanently wired to Greek

Barb - Interesting links.

Frybabe - I wonder if your grading system is similar to our university grading system?  7 is the highest grade you can get.  So if someone has a 6.5 GPA (Grade Point Average) it doesn't sound as impressive as it actually is.  One of my Greek teachers had a 7 GPA, for which she was awarded A University Medal, the highest accolade that can be given to an undergraduate.

At one stage in Australian economic history when the unemployment rate was 11%, candidates for jobs were employed according to their GPA's.  In the toilet at Uni I remember that written above the toilet roll dispenser some wag had written, "BAs - Please take one".  Absolutely everyone had a BA, (Bachelor of Arts) from shop assistants to cleaners.  And many PhDs were driving taxis.  Many still do.   That "lowly" BA was expected as a basis for getting a job - crazy isn't it?  Now I think years of experience in one particular syllabus is preferred.  Depends a lot on the State, I think.  I don't think that there is a preference for a particular Uni education, unless the interview panel are all from the same alma mater . Also the idea of Ivy League doesn't exist here.  When I went to Uni it didn't cost me a cent, as a beneficent Prime Minister had introduced free tertiary education,  but my post graduate did cost.  The government had decided by then, with a different PM, that there was money to be made in Higher Education.  Thus the "ideal" education of equal opportunity for everyone disappeared, and one had to either have a scholarship, be working, have wealthy parents or be paying off their HECS debt for years after they finished Uni.  What system do you have there, and does it vary from state to state, university to university?

[Babi]

"...they were in conflict with the official legal Religion .."

  And right there, BARB, in the phrase 'official legal religion', is the
reason for our mandate against Congress making any law effecting the
establishment of religion. It not only would deny individual rights of
conscience, it tends to corrupt the religion as well. A church's 'governing
body' should have authority only over it's own, voluntary, members.
  The true purpose of a church, in my view, is and should be the gathering
of people of like beliefs for worship, praise, instruction, fellowship and mutual
support. That is the 'church' I love and honor, and have sadly missed since I
can no longer hear.  Thankfully, I found a preacher I like,...Ed Young... on Sunday
morning TV, complete with closed caps!!
 

[Ella Gibbons]

Erik Larson's new book - IN THE GARDEN OF BEASTS - grabs your attention early.  It was a good read.  FDR appointed a history professor from the University of Chicago to be the American Ambassador to Germany in the year 1933; his only qualification was that he spoke German and had spent two of his early years there as a student; no one else wanted the job.  It was a poor fit.  A horrible time.  Hindenberg was President but soon died and left Hitler in charge and did he take charge!  The history of the conflicts within the country, the government, the military units  was interesting;  however, I wouldn't want to discuss another book about that period in history.  We have done quite a few of them.

As some of you may remember we discussed Larson's  DEVIL IN THE WHITE CITY some years ago pertaining to the Columbian Exposition in Chicago 1893.

Have we ever discussed the Civil War in the USA or it's aftermath, the reconstruction efforts - such as they were?   Any suggestions?

[Frybabe]

Roshanarose, our GPA points only go up to 4. Individual tests are marked into percentages, which translate into letter grades for the final course score, A is 90-100, B is 80-89, etc. I forget how they come up with the GPA for the overall cumulative grade.

College has always been a pay your own way thing here. However, there are plenty of private and governmental grants and scholarships for those who apply and qualify. Some of these students end up not paying anything or almost nothing. I, for example, have been approved for a Workforce Investment Act grant which is paying for my tuition and books up to $4,000. This grant is specifically for retraining aging workers. I must apply for a Federal Financial Aid grant (doesn't matter if I am eligible for any Federal aid or not, I still have to file an application), must maintain at least a C grade for each class, and the program must be in one of the "high priority" fields. High priority means a job category that the government deems as needing more skilled workers such as accounting, nursing and several other of the healthcare related industries, office administration, and diesel mechanics. There are more categories, but those are the ones I remember off the top of my head.

[marjifay]

One book I've had on my TBR list about the Civil War is THE REPUBLIC OF SUFFERING; DEATH AND THE AMERICAN CIVIL WAR by Drew Gilpin Faust.

Per Publisher's Weekly review, "Historian Faust (Mothers of Invention) notes that the Civil War introduced America to death on an unprecedented scale and of an unnatural kind—grisly, random and often ending in an unmarked grave far from home. She surveys the many ways the Civil War generation coped with the trauma: the concept of the Good Death—conscious, composed and at peace with God; the rise of the embalming industry; the sad attempts of the bereaved to get confirmation of a soldier's death, sometimes years after war's end; the swelling national movement to recover soldiers' remains and give them decent burials; the intellectual quest to find meaning—or its absence—in the war's carnage. In the process, she contends, the nation invented the modern culture of reverence for military death and used the fallen to elaborate its new concern for individual rights. Faust exhumes a wealth of material—condolence letters, funeral sermons, ads for mourning dresses, poems and stories from Civil War–era writers—to flesh out her lucid account. The result is an insightful, often moving portrait of a people torn by grief.

The author is the current president of Harvard University.

Marj

[serenesheila]

ELLA, I just ordered "In The Garden Of The Beasts", for my Kindle.  I look forward to reading it.  The period from the first world war, until the end of world war two, fascinates me.  WWII had the greatest impact on me, and on my life, than any other period.  I first read about this book in a magazine, and knew I wanted to read it.

Sheila

[roshanarose]

Frybabe - Thanks for that information.  We have a similar system to yours in that vocational training is, and has been for some time now the "go".  Unfortunately, as far as I know, there are no scholarships awarded for them.  The government usually sponsors a fair amount of money on these vocational courses.  I have taught a couple of these.  The all-women classes were fine; the mixed gender classes are often not so good to teach.  Being adults, men and women either hate each other; or love each other and gang up on other students and sometimes teachers.  Many of them, I hate to say, don't want jobs but the government may require them to work for the "dole" (unemployment benefits) so this causes some resentment.  If I think back I can remember about three people who made it quite clear that they were sick of doing "useless" classes and intended to fleece the government as much as they could.  Trying to teach these individuals is by no means a pleasant task and gives the word "teaching" a whole new meaning.

[JoanK]

There's nothing worse than teaching people who don't want to learn and nothing better than teaching people who do.

[roshanarose]

JoanK - Absolutely spot on mate!

[Babi]

 The only teaching I've done is in Sunday School, and I couldn't agree more.
Amazing the difference between teaching kids who don't really want to be there
and adults who do!

[HaroldArnold]

Ella, regarding previous discussion of Civil War titles, we certainly did one.  It was the Jay Winik book, April 1865.  It was in the summer of 2002. Discussions leaders were Ella and Harold.

[Frybabe]

Ran across this website while looking for something else. It may have been posted before some time ago, but I'll post it again. http://www.biographyonline.net/people/women-who-changed-world.html

[roshanarose]

Frybabe - Not for the first time I am proud to be a woman.  Fantastic link.  Thank You.

[Ella Gibbons]

Frybabe; thanks for the biography link, but, as you know, the author makes such a difference in a book  so one can't depend upon a title at all, NOT AT ALL!    We can't have a David McCullough or a Doris Kearns Goodwin often, but when we do we know we will be reading a good one.

Browsing in a book store or the library is the best way to pick a good biography and, alas, book stores are dwindling due to Kindles, Nooks, and the like.  Libraries have changed.  In mine, I see empty shelves!  Never before have I seen an empty shelf and I'm hoping they are just shifting books around from our main library downtown.

I spent a few lovely hours reading MEMORIES OF THE GREAT AND THE GOOD by Alistair Cooke.  I hope someone besides myself remember him?  He is British, a journalist, a foreign correspondent, a radio talk host on the BBC.  His essary of people range from George Bernard Shw to Frank Lloyd Wright to General Marshall to President Reagan to Erma Bombeck to Gary Cooper.  Most familiar to me, many known personally to Mr. Cooke.

[Ella Gibbons]

Frybabe, thanks so much for that link to biographies (there are men on there, also, Roshanarose, if you click on biographies at the top.)

But that is such a small part of a good book - the title.  NOW THE AUTHOR, that is where the treasure lies, as you know.

We can't have a David McCullough or a Doris Kearns Goodwin book often can we.  They take time to write, reseach.

I just finished an excellent book by Alistair Cooke (MEMORIES OF THE GREAT AND THE GOOD).  Perhaps many of you remember him as I do somehow; possibly from his writing.  He is British, a radio talk show host, a journalist, a foreign coorespondenet and author. 

His short essays range from George Bernard Shaw, to Duke Ellington, to Ronald Reagin, Erma Bombeck, Gary Cooper, Genral George C. Marshall, Harold Ross, etc.

I spent a few lovely hours reading it.  Good book.

[Frybabe]

Ella, I wasn't paying attention to the book, just the list and their short bios. I do question some of the author's picks though, especially when it comes to actresses. Some of the picks certainly did transform themselves and are an inspiration to some degree, but change the world?

[mabel1015j]

Interesting list and a good one to start learning or talking about women in history........However, Susan  B. Anthony, but not Elizabeth Cady Stanton? - can't hardly talk about one w/out the other.......Jane Goodall, but not Rachael Carson?.......Marilyn Monroe, but not May West, who not only acted, but wrote and directed and was a phenomenal businesswoman and smartly managed her own career, or Mary Pickford, who was a partner in starting United Artists?

But i guess everyone's list of fifty would be different.

Allistar Cooke did a wonderful series on American History for PBS that i used for years in my college classes.

[Ella Gibbons]

OH, DEAR!   I see I posted twice, I thought I had lost the first post.

I would delete but can't see the delete button. Please, disregard.

[roshanarose]

Re The Women - Frybabe said that some were able to transform themselves.  Any woman (or man) who can rise above obscurity, and often poverty, to be regarded as a world Icon, is an inspiration to me.  Some of the women changed the world, some didn't.  But, think on this, although it may sound superficial, the women who are "famous" worldwide may not necessarily be great authors, or even have written a book, but their influence in other fields may have been considerable.  I am still proud, and I didn't read about which books they had or had not written.  Entirely subjective though, just as Mabel writes.

[roshanarose]

Just took a further look at Frybabe's'link.  For interest people should also take a look at 100 People who changed the World.  Jesus Christ comes first (no surprises there); and Adolf Hitler ninth.  The list has a distinct US bias, regarding US Presidents in the higher ranks, but I can deal with that  .  Of the 100 there are 18 women.  The highest ranking being Joan of Arc as number 22 and at number 60  Margaret Thatcher.  These two feisty ladies both rose from obscurity to become forces to be reckoned with.  

There are also other "lists" of interest.  Well spotted Frybabe

[Babi]

 Alas, ELLA, I'm afraid not.  My library has more and more empty shelf space and it's a sad thing to see. Well, these 'tight' times have come and gone before. Hopefully this one won't stay too much longer.
  I like the idea of a book about 'great and good' people. It would be so pleasant to read about them instead of hearing only about the crooks and villains.

[BarbStAubrey]

Ella a consideration that could be a look at the forgotten in our history whose story would appeal to both men and women - Revolutionary Founders; Rebels, Radicals, and Reformers in the Making of the Nation

Another fascinating period in history is the mid and late 1800s and early 1900s when the many Department stores were established and the giants who opened the world to us in the fantasy lands they created in the Department stores. I would love to make the connection between what they did and not only the shopping centers of today but the many magazines. -

And one more that I thought would be riveting - Grace Wyndham Goldie, First Lady of Television - I think this would be found in a library easier than on the NYTimes Best Seller shelf of the local bookstore.

Just my two cents...

[Ella Gibbons]

BARB, your suggestion is a good one, but they are essays, which I think is personal reading and not for discussion within a group.  Maybe I'm wrong?  I don't know.  We have nevar, to my knowledge, done a book of essays.

If we were to discuss one, the book, THE GREAT AND THE GOOD, would be excellent.  The two adjectives do not denote the same people; some can be great without being good, of course.

[Jonathan]

Ella, your suggestion, THE GREAT AND THE GOOD, does sound interesting. And so does Barb's, REBELS, RADICALS, AND REFORMERS. Choosing one would probably depend on one's politics.

As soon as I saw the name Alistair Cooke, I immediately thought of another book by him that I would like to suggest. And then I remembered that it was another Alistair that I was thinking of. Also a Britisher. Alistair Horne. The book I have in mind is: KISSINGER, 1973, THE CRUCIAL YEAR. I'm halfway through it.

Another book I'm enjoying is Barbara Goldsmith's OTHER POWERS, THE AGE OF SUFFRAGE, SPIRITUALISM, AND THE SCANDALOUS VICTORIA WOODHULL. The other powers (occult, of course) included those Vanderbilt consulted to make his fortune, and many bereaved by the Civil War consulted to communicate with their dead fathers, husbands and brothers. Plenty of other stuff to justify 'THE AGE OF'.

How about something on an earlier event in the 19th century? Something like Walter R. Borneman's: 1812, THE WAR THAT FORGED A NATION? There must be other books coming out to mark the 200th anniversary.

[Ella Gibbons]

Good ideas, JONATHAN!  I'm the only nonfiction reader in my condo book group so I am always looking for something that would appeal to that group also; as well as our nonfiction readers here.  I'm off to my library to see those books you mentioned; one innovation of my library is that they now give a condensation of the book online and occasionally an excerpt.  They are modernizing all the time, but the problem with progress is it eliminates the familiar, the old, not always progress.

I was browing through Alistair Cooke lovely book titled AMERICA -paintings and photographs beyond the ordinary - and he acknowledged this at the end of his book.  An example - the building of Hoover Dam during the depression, an extraordinary feat, giving hundreds jobs and doing what FDR hoped to do - beautify America.  As a result, America got Las Vegas, the elimination of thousands of desert acres,- blooming acres - littered with cities -  leaving America, once a country with boundless space, littered with cities and people.  It, according to Cooke, is becomeing overpopulated, polluted and destroying nature.

[Ella Gibbons]

JONATHAN, I don't know how librarians decide what to buy; but I found it interesting that my metro library bought 15 copies of the 1812 book (and also provided an excerpt), but only 2 of the Kissinger book.  I'll get both, my branch has the 1812 one so I'll pick it up tomorrow.  Here is the first paragraph of the excerpt and it looks very interesting.  When was it we discussed the Aaron Burr book?  I'll look it up in the Archives.  But he is mentioned here:

"In the early twilight, the swollen waters of the Ohio River swept a wooden flatboat up to a landing on a small, tree-covered island. On the river's east bank lay the western reaches of the state of Virginia; on the west, the shores of the state of Ohio, now, in the spring of 1805, barely two years old. The flatboat was much grander than the normal river craft that floated by or landed here. Indeed, its owner had commissioned its recent construction in Pittsburgh, and he himself described it as a "floating house, sixty feet by fourteen, containing dining room, kitchen with fireplace, and two bedrooms, roofed from stem to stern ... "  The flatboat belonged to Aaron Burr......" excerpted from 1812 The War that Forged a Nation by Walter Bourneman.

Is this when he was fleeing the feds?  Or no, he wouldn't have been so conspicuous in that grand boat.


Incidentally, I have no interest in the occult or the death and suffering of soldiers; enough death of present day soldiers  is in our newsppers to our great dismay and pain.