Non-Fiction

[roshanarose]

TO NONFICTION BOOK TALK

What are you reading?  Autobiographies, biographies, history, politics?

Tell us about the book; the good and the bad of it. 

Let's talk books!

Discussion Leader: HaroldArnold

Octavia - I wish all Australians had the same point of view.  I was a refugee advocate from 1999 up to about 2006.  We used to set up our stall in West End, one of the more cosmopolitan parts of Brisbane.  We had the usual badges, pamphlets, posters etc.  Abuse was normal.  But our arguments were pretty compelling, more or less based on what you said about walking in someone else's shoes.  We did "convert" some people but not nearly enough.  There were always two of us "womanning" the stall.  Sometimes one of us would have to leave the other.  One day my companion left to get some lunch.  The abuse would often increase if one of us was solo.  Anyway, a taxi stopped in the middle of the very busy road near where we had our stall.  He raced towards me, and he was big.  I thought he was going to attack me.  Instead, he held out his hand and gave me fifty dollars and said "I want to help those poor buggers".  Amid much honking he returned to his car and threw a kiss at me.

There are so many other incidents.  But don't want to go on about the topic here.  I have an Afghan friend who was on the Tampa.  

[marjifay]

Octavia said, "Roshanarose, I spend a lot of time going into bat for refugees, a lot of people insist on calling them 'illegals' and 'boat people' and vilify them. I always try to put myself in their place, and ask myself 'what if it was my child', wouldn't I try anything to give them a better life?"

I understand your feelings abut "illegals" fleeing from poverty.  But here in the Southern California area, especially Los Angeles, the illegals coming across the border from Mexico have put a terrible strain on the budgets of the schools, hospitals, police departments, prisons, and they have added to the bad gangs who commit crimes, scribble gang writing all over public walls and buildings, etc.  I felt your way when the boat people came here from the Vietnam war, and they have formed responsible communities and become good Americans.  But I don't feel that way about the current illegals coming in from Mexico.

Marj

[rosemarykaye]

Yes Marj - I suppose most of us over here feel the same way about Polish people (who are not refugees, but have clearly come here to have a better life, and are well integrated, good citizens, who work hard), and Romanians, who sit on street corners begging and shouting at us.  I really do try to tell myself that they have nothing compared to the affluent west, but it's hard because they don't seem to want to do anything.  However, most of the real trouble in Scottish cities does not come from refugees/immigrants - it comes from binge drinking and drug taking - the latter really dominates parts of every city, and leads to all sorts of crimes, and the drinking is just horrible - and also, of course, leads to a lot of hospital admissions that the creaking NHS is still obliged to fund.  My neighbour used to work in A & E in Aberdeen and she said almost all the customers on Friday and Saturday nights were drunk, and it was a scary place.

We now see this with the same Brits going over to mainland Europe on holiday and getting into all sorts of trouble because the drink is cheap and that's what they go for.  It's embarrassing.

Rosemary

[Babi]

MARYZ, I cheerfully confess that your knowledge of political history is far
greater than mine...which is abysmal!  Politics and high finance are two
subjects that always left me with a blank stare of incomprehension.

 The refugee question is so complex.  I sympathize with what MARJ had to say about Southern
California,  and I suppose that may be true all along the border.   I must say, though, that the
Mexican people I have met living locally are hard-working, friendly and helpful.  My cousin
Rosalie is godmother to one young lady of such a family.  And with their respect for the elderly,
 I have found more than once that if I am in difficulties while out in public,  any Latino man
about will promptly come to my aid.  And, oh, yes,...the current management here is a Latino
woman and the best we have ever had.

[BarbStAubrey]

Thought on the shouting beggars - a bunch of St. Ed students (St. Edwards University, founded by the Holy Cross fathers) lived for a week among the homeless - the recap was how no one looked at you much less looked you in the eye even if they handed you some of their pocket money. They felt as if the community wanted them to be invisible -  And so the shouters may be asking for attention that makes them feel they are part of the town, city whatever...

[marjifay]

Babi said, "I must say, though, that the
Mexican people I have met living locally are hard-working, friendly and helpful.  My cousin
Rosalie is godmother to one young lady of such a family.  And with their respect for the elderly,  I have found more than once that if I am in difficulties while out in public,  any Latino man about will promptly come to my aid."

Babi, I know there are people from Mexico here in Southern California who have become good citizens.  I'm talking about the illegal ones who are not interested in becoming good citizens.

This morning I was happy to hear that the police authorities announced the arrest here in Orange and Los Angeles counties of 99 purported members of the Mexican Mafia gang.

Marj

[rosemarykaye]

Marjifay - do you live anywhere near San Juan Capistrano?  My uncle and aunt used to live there and I visited them when I was at college. 

Rosemary

[BarbStAubrey]

The problem marjifay is there are good and bad among all people and just as there are a percentage of folks coming here with bad intentions there are as many, if not more who come to bring money to their family. Having hiked in Mexico and stayed at a couple of villages tucked away in the mountains I learned that there is no money in these villages - not poverty no money - just no money - they are completely self sufficient until they need something that cannot be supplied by nature or their work and then they need money -

For over 100 years that money was gained as someone or a few from the village went to a town or ranch large enough that work would be paid with money - then they went further as they learned of the acres of orchards and crops to be picked in northern Mexico and then they gradually saw that work in the US paid more so they did not have to be away from their family as long - when they have the money needed back home they go.

They need money to buy a foot powered sewing machine for a crippled daughter or grandmother to sew what is needed in the community - there is no electricity - candles are used - there is no running water - all water is from the nearby stream which is where villages are located - there is a small fire continually burning in the corner of the adobe huts/houses with most often thatched roofs - or the house is made of logs that are the face with a door to an interior dug out of the side of a hill or mountain by several generations back in their family -

They need money to buy corrugated tin panels for a roof - they need money to buy a cow - they need money to buy some land - they need money for any medical need beyond the ability of the local curandera. When the family member goes for money the remaining family, often a young wife with 3 or more children under the age of 5,  has no word for sometimes years - there is no mail unless the family can get to a nearby town and then the postal workers steal anything that is mailed - if there is a bad season and the corn does not grow children and old folks actually die from starvation - there is no backup - when we hiked we always took a burro packed with rice and beans to leave with those we met who were on the edge.

The Tarahumara are the only tribe that has land rights and if their land is confiscated by the government or sold there is a cash transaction -  other tribes legal rights to their land is from, none at all to very few rights so the people cannot better themselves through land sales.

Some migrant workers are from larger communities - again the need is for money - when they come here their plan is to work and get back home - the work to earn what is needed usually takes about 3 to 4 years - and yes, some do fall in love while here and start a family. It gets more and more difficult to go home as they did each year at Christmas risking only that their money earned would be stolen before they got home - now if they can get back they are afraid they cannot return and the longer they are away from family the more likely they do not return.

If we had an adequate number of temporary work permits most of the problems caused would be eliminated for both the Mexican worker and the Americans who require their labor and know how. We no longer have the kind of occupational training available in our schools and most farms are no longer small enterprises family run with many kids knowing how to pick and operate the machinery needed. Nor do we have training for our kids how to build roads etc. which is mostly done cheaply because the source of labor had been illegals. Those who see this as a problem do need to review how business economics works and how low wages not only keeps prices down but allows us to educate our kids for more than jobs in the fields or nailing roofs on houses or laying gravel and tar on the roads.

[mabel1015j]

One of our PBS stations is starting the series on Abraham and Mary Lincoln at 9EDT. I think there are six hours in all. David McCullough is narating. David Herbert Donald is one of the historians who talk. I love his accent.

Jean

[roshanarose]

Sorry Mabel - just a bit of clarification as to what a refugee is.

Firstly, a refugee is NOT an illegal immigrant.  By using those last words John Howard divided a Nation.

International Council of Human Rights wrote:

Article 1 of the Convention as amended by the 1967 Protocol provides the definition of a refugee:

"A person who owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion, is outside the country of his nationality and is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to avail himself of the protection of that country; or who, not having a nationality and being outside the country of his former habitual residence as a result of such events, is unable or, owing to such fear, is unwilling to return to it.."[5

It is important to note that the status of "unauthorized immigrant" may coincide with or be replaced by the status of "asylum seeker" for emigrants who have escaped a war or repression and have unlawfully crossed into another state. If they are recognized as "legitimate" asylees by the destination state, they will then gain status. However, there may be numerous potential asylees in a destination state who are unwilling to apply or have been denied asylum status, and hence are categorized as "unathorized immigrants" and may be subject to punishment or deportation. However the Ariticle 31 of Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees prohibits the Contracting States to impose penalties on refugees for their illegal enter or presence, who come directly form a territory where their life or freedom are threatened.[25]  It is extremely rare, actually I have heard of no cases where any Afghan Hazaras have been deported to Afghanistan.  Their lives would be at stake.

The Vietnamese who were also "boat people" were welcomed into Australia as well and have proved to be good citizens etc etc.  Some people say, including me that there was a measure of political guilt as to why the Vietnamese were accepted and released almost immediately into society in Australia.  Strictly speaking, their circumstances were similar to our current refugees.  1) They were fleeing a war; 2) they were being persecuted; 3) they were being murdered.  The current refugees to Australia are predominantly Afghan (specifically the Hazara tribe) and Iraqis - both, not by coincidence, Shia.  Afghanistan was and still is ruled by Sunni Muslims. Hamid Karzai and the Taliban are all Sunni. Iraq was ruled by Saddam Hussein and the Ba'ath Party who are also Sunni.  Both refugee groups are also Muslim.  Australians in general have no idea about the politics and the deaths in their homelands of these refugees or of Muslims in general.  Many just tend to call them "Queue jumpers" and "illegal immigrants".  Both terms are incorrect in their application.  

The Hazaras have been terrorised and persecuted since the Anglo-Afghan war by the rulers of Afghanistan.  It is to their credit they stayed as long as they did, but when your children and you are forced into eating grass because the Taliban have taken your land and shoot you on sight, I think that is a bloody good reason to jump on a boat.  Do a search for Hazaras if you want more information.  They are still being killed in Afghanistan and in Quetta, Pakistan where many of them fled after it was no longer safe to remain in Afghanistan.  Not a rant, truth.

www.hazarapeople.com - If you are interested please read the Hazara letter to the world on the right hand top side of the page.

Pretty straightforward if you know.

[marjifay]

Rosemary asked, "Marjifay - do you live anywhere near San Juan Capistrano?  My uncle and aunt used to live there and I visited them when I was at college."  

No, San Juan Capistrano is in the very southern part of Orange County.  Where the swallows used to come back  to the mission there, but few now do.  Since everyone used to come there to greet the swallows, I was with a group once that for fun grouped there to  wave and say goodbye to the swallows. Silly stuff.  LOL

I live in the very northern part of Orange County, near Disneyland.

Marj

[Babi]

 Thanks for those definitions, ROSHANA. It does clarify the issue. So, the
people BARB describes, who come over because of a need for cash money, are
not refugees. I can sympathize with their need for money, given their financial
status. I can also sympathize with those communities who find their resurces
under a heavy strain because of 'unauthorized immigrants'.  It's a harsh dilemma,
 finding a balance between compassion and common sense.

[mabel1015j]

I'm reading Malcom Gladwell's "Outliers".  He's the author of "Tipping Point". In a discussion at dinner last week, a dear friend said "i've got a book you've got to read. Come by the house after dinner and pick it up." then they went on a vacation and my husband and i are reading it until they get back home. We will have a lively discussion about it. His premise is that we tend to think of really successful people as being very smart and/or very talented, but there are many, many other factors that relate to success: one is one's  timing of being in the world (Bill Gates coming of age at the same time as computers); having spent 10,000 hours working on your skill; having people to assist you at the right time and to do the right things,  and your cultural heritage, which can be a positive or a negative in one's success. (not racial or ethnic background, but cultural behaviors) .

He has a very interesting chapter on the importance of independence vs authoritarian-leaning behavior. He uses the examples of captains and first officers' relationships in airplanes and the coorelation to airplane crashes because first officers and more subordinates didn't speak up, or nor assertively enough to stop the crash. It reminded me of something i heard along the way of my life/education about DDay and passed on to my management training and college history students......... Because of the US soldiers' history of independence and taking charge, when their officers were killed in battle, especially on DDay, the soldiers organized themselves and cont'd on with whatever they had to do. Because of generations, maybe centuries of European history of boarding schools and authoritarianism, when European, especially German, officers were injured or killed, their young soldiers sat down and waited for someone w/ authority to tell them what to do.

I found myself saying thru the book,"of course, of course". I believe there are many factors that create successful people and nobody does it alone, no one IMO is a "self-made" person. He made me think about that in a more focused way though and i am glad my friend suggested it. As i said, we'll have a lot to talk about at our next dinner. I recommend it.

Jean

[Octavia]

Ah Roshanarose that was the point I was trying to make, that refugees aren't illegals. Illegals come by plane and overstay their visas.
Anyway, this is a book folder and I have a library book called Life: a guide on what to expect in each seven -year stage. Also gives a list of achievers for each age.
My sister is depressed about turning 70 next year, and I wonder if she'll be cheered up by Golda Meir being elected at 70? Maybe not!
My age chapter is 'Intimacy or Invisibility'. I know that 'invisibility' feeling
There's also a long list of the best things in life. I agree with them all. Examples-reading a great book, listening to rain spattering on the roof while lying in bed,reading a great book, the smell of babies' heads etc,. I'd combine the first two, actually.

[HaroldArnold]

Ella and I are planning a discussion of “Berlin, 1961” by Frederick Kempe Beginning September 1st.     This Book is about one of the 4 or 5 major East/West cold war confrontations that kept the world on pins and needles during the several decades following the end of WW II.  This may be the first SeniorNet/Seniorlearn discussion of a Cold war event.

All of you are invited to participate in this dissuasion that will begin September 1st and continue through the month of September.  Ella and I hope you will be here.   We will need 6 or more active participants.   Click the following to join.  http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?topic=2389.0

For more information on the book  Click : http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/berlin-1961-frederick-kempe/1100055244?ean=9780399157295&itm=2&usri=berlin%2b1961

[Frybabe]

I finally finished the Lucretia Borgia bio (published in 1904). It really had very little of LB in the book. Most of it was what was going on around her. Apparently, the woman was highly thought of after she managed to get away from her father and brother in Rome. Most of the surviving documents that mention her show her in a very good light. What struck me the most, I think, was the attention to clothing and appearance and the extreme flattery which pervaded correspondence and conversations at that time.

The book is at odds with some of what Wikipedia has to say, but perhaps the author did not have access to some of the documents later biographers did. The book also states that although there are paintings that may be of LB, the only confirmed portraits of her are those of the medals struck in her honor.

[Jonathan]

Frybabe, I've been following your progress through the book on Lucretia Borgia, getting more curious with every mention of it in your posts. In fact you got me going on a history of the Borgias that I've had on my shelf for years. The book I have is by Clemente Fusero, pub in 1966. I'm about halfway through it, but going slowly with all the other things going. What a colorful family.

Are you aware of the TV series on the Borgias? In nine parts. Just completed and shown here in Canada in April/May. Fabulous. It will no doubt be coming to a theater near you before too long. Starring Jeremy Irons as Pope Alexancer VI. It took some getting used to, seeing him in all his clerical vestments, on his papal throne. I kept seeing him as Charles Ryder, the agnostic, bemused by his very Catholic friend Sebastian in Brideshead Revisited. Catholicism was beyond his comprehension. As a pope he looks most comfortable when he is dealing with political problems. What a close-knit family.

[HaroldArnold]

 I have seen a couple of the Borgias series as reruns on some 3or4 sunday evening beginning 6 or 7weeks ago.  I was watching with a friend at her place so I don't know, what channel.  Suffice it to say I thought them interesting and regret not viewing the entire series.

[Frybabe]

I haven't seen the TV series, Jonathan. It is on a station I don't get. It will show up sooner or later on one I do.

I imagine it is sometimes hard to confirm or deny the things that are said of historical figures. It appears that sucking up, ingratiating behavior, and gross flattery was common in that era. One of the things I had to chuckle at was instead of saying Dear so and so in letters, it was Illustrious so and so or Illustrious Majesty. At any rate, it would be hard, at times, determine whether the person writing was being honest or not. It doesn't do to diss someone in a very powerful family, even to your friends. You never know who will turn on you or blab.

My next non-fiction read is Friedrich von Hayek's Road to Serfdom.

[marjifay]

I'm reading GROWING UP BIN LADEN; OSAMA'S WIFE AND SON TAKE US INSIDE THEIR SECRET WORLD by Jean Sasson.  Very interesting.  So far in the book Osama has had 14 children by four wives.  What a strange man he was.  Kept his homes bare of any "luxuries" like electricity. (Mahammed lived without it, he said).  He denied his children toys; he took his sons on long hikes in the desert without water to toughen them up.  But he loved to drive fast and  bought himself the latest Mercedes-Benz cars for his own pleasure.

Marj

[Jonathan]

von Hayek's Road to Serfdom

Now there's a milestone book in the ideological disputes of the 20th century. How did you ever come to this book, Frybabe? Is it still relevant? Keep us posted. I would like to read it along with you. My old copy is somewhere in the house. I'm sure every Cold War veteran read that one.

Bin Laden. What a strange mission he took on. But he went off the track with his Mercedes-Benz. So a camel wasn't fast enough? It was good enough for the Prophet. Running for his life in the end. There are more heroic ways to go.

[Frybabe]

Nice to have company Jonathan. I am part way through the introduction. I think I ran across the book being mentioned in Liberal Fascism. Now that was a book I could only read a few paragraphs at a time. Heavy reading. I hope "Serfdom" easier going.

[Jonathan]

Of course. I see the connection. The Goldberg book is in the Hayek tradition in which history is at the service of the political partisan. All very interesting and certainly a fantastic workout for ones brain. I found very engaging customer reviews on the AMAZON website. 586 of them at last count. Here's a quote from one of them:

'It should be remembered that one of Hitler's early steps was to introduce full gun control in Germany to reduce any possibility of internal resistance to his regime.'

Scary, isn't it? Historical analysis becomes a weapon.

[Frybabe]

Well, Jonathan, I think it pays to know your history. Patton knew his; it helped him win battles.

What scares me is the slow erosion of our freedoms and the increasing entitlements that serve to put people more and more under government control and in the process making people less likely to bite the hand that feeds them.


The other book I've begun to dig into is one on the Ubuntu Linux-based operating system. I reformatted my other computer to strictly Linux. It originally had Windows XP on it which got royally screwed up with Service Pack 3. The first time that happened my BF and the Microsoft tech were able to restore the system. I needed SP3 to run some software I needed for school last fall, so I tried downloading it again. Bad move. Hence, a new machine with Windows 7 installed in a hurry.  Surprisingly, I like it.

[rosemarykaye]

Frybabe - here in the Uk, over the past few weeks, it has become increasingly clear that the politicians and the police have been loathe to bite the hand that fed them - ie the press, and especially certain parts of it.

Rosemary

[Babi]

 Pretty much the way it has always gone, isn't it?  The more power, the less integrity.  Even the
institutions most fiercely guarded,  like freedom of the press,  can be suborned by those who use
it for personal ends.  So, who do you trust?

[Jonathan]

Put your trust in the Constitution, Babi.

Wonderful riposte, Rosemary.

Frybabe, do you see a totalitarian threat in technology? Will you be able to extricate yourself? One can't get away from it. That's a loss of freedom.

[rosemarykaye]

Jonathan - I agree, especially where mobile phones are concerned.  I know I use mine a lot for texting but I am sure that I managed fine without it before.  

We are having to change to a new network owing to our house move - at the weekend we went into the phone shop (horrible) - I had already said that my daughters (and I for that matter - husband's phone is provided through his job) were only getting the minimum price contract, which is perfectly adequate and gives you a choice of about 7 phones, 300 mins and unlimited texts per month.  Husband said he was just concerned that our daughters would be derided at school if they didn't have the latest smart phone.  I was very pleased when both of them (and the elder one in particular isn't averse to spending other people's money) said that they couldn't care less what people thought, but just wanted a phone that worked.  The tyranny of fashion combined with the tyranny of technology takes hold of far too many people.

Rosemary

[Frybabe]

Jonathan, I don't think it is the technology itself so much as those who control it that presents a threat.

I don't think this is completely appropriate, but Baron Acton's famous quote about absolute power being corrupting came to mind. Here is the full paragraph from which that famous quote was taken:

"I cannot accept your canon that we are to judge Pope and King unlike other men with a favourable presumption that they did no wrong. If there is any presumption, it is the other way, against the holders of power, increasing as the power increases. Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility. All power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise influence and not authority: still more when you superadd the tendency or certainty of corruption by full authority. There is no worse heresy than that the office sanctifies the holder of it."  - in a letter to Mandell Creighton dated April 1887.

Creighton had asked Acton to review volumes 3 and 4 of his series The History of the Papacy. Creighton was expecting a good review; instead he got a hostile one. Later Creighton rethought his position and wrote, in a 1895 paper, that the papacy which had been tasked to promote morality in actuality "provided the means for the utmost immorality." (my thanks to Wikipedia, and the person(s) who provided tons of references for the article)

As Rosemarykay noted with her comments about the mobile phones, tyrannical threats come in many forms. Peer pressure is very powerful and useful to control or promote certain behaviors. How these things mushroom into something big is beyond me. However, you can see some of it at work in smoking campaigns, green movements, etc. Fads and fashion are more short lived and unpredictable in length and intensity.

I think I am babbling about now and getting off topic. Time to trot off to see what mind numbing stuff is on TV tonight.

[Babi]

 Peer pressure is one of those dangers that most concerned me when was bringing up my
children.  It is one of the reasons I began at early age allowing them to make some choices
and decisions for themselves.  I very much wanted them to form the habit of thinking for
themselves and not playing 'follow the leader'.  Of course, there was bound to be some backlash
on that for me,...especially with my youngest.   On the whole, tho', I believe in the long run it
paid off.  My youngest, by the way, is now my companion and help as I grow older.

[JoanK]

My grandson is already complaining that he is the ONLY one in 6th grade (12 years old) that doesn't have a cell phone!! (on careful enquiery, his best friend doesn't have one either).

[Babi]

  Ah, yes, JOAN.  The time-honored chant of "Everybody's doing it."  And, "I'm the only one who doesn't have _____.   

[CallieOK]

My reply to the "Everybody..." statement was always, "Name five."   

[Jonathan]

Lord Acton: 'Historic responsibility has to make up for the want of legal responsibility.'

Thanks, Frybabe, for the context for the often quoted 'power corrupts' observation by Lord Acton. I was unfamiliar with that source. Lord A, of course, was a distinguished historian. And that makes him and his colleagues the bar at which everyone has to answer for their actions, eventually!

The king can do no harm. The pope is infallible. The one avoids all lawsuits. The other...well, I'll leave it to the theologians. Thank heavens, for that impeachment clause in the Constitution. Why doesn't the Church have a recall mechanism?

Here's another quote from Lord Acton: 'Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas.'

Can anyone find the source for that? Hayek begins his Introduction with that quote, in his book Road to Serfdom.

[Frybabe]

Found it Jonathan. Project Gutenberg has Lord Acton's History of Freedom which includes the review of Sir Erskine May's  DEMOCRACY IN EUROPE from whence came the quote. I've just downloaded the text for my Kindle.

[Babi]

Oh, you're tough, CALLIE. I only demanded they name three. 

[Ella Gibbons]

"it pays to know your history" - Frybabe

" Historical analysis becomes a weapon." - Jonathan

History.  This book, this drama between the Soviet Union and the USA, doesn't necesarily help us to understand or prepare for the future; actually it questions how decisions are made, who makes them, and their outcomes for the world.  We came very close to a nuclear war in 1961; can it happen again now that many nations, rather than just two, have atomic weapons?  Can they be used as blackmail?  Who dominates the world today, is it still the USA, do we still have the power we possessed in 1961.  How does the leader of the free world make a decision?  Who does he listen to?

Do plan to join our BERLIN 1961 book discussion in September.  Read the reviews of the book:  "cracklin with tension" - "a world on the edge" - and more at

http://www.amazon.com/Berlin-1961-Frederick-Kempe/dp/0399157298/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1311949520&sr=1-1

[mabel1015j]

At the library book sale last spring i picked up a book that i've been " reading at" every once in a while. It's title is "Man is a Weaver" by Elizabeth Chesley Baity, published in 1946. It gives a history of spinning and weaving from ancient times to the 20th century. I pick it up irregularly and read the bits and pieces it gives about those topics. I like to read those kind of querky pie es of history.

A quote from the book: "in 216 b.c. the (Roman) senate passed a law forbidding the wearing of  colored clothes and limiting the amount of gold used on costumes. In a.d. 16 another law forbade men to wear silks. ...... Nero ...seldom wore the same garment twice. One rich woman boasted of 273 chests of silk garments, 410 of linen, and 160 of fabrics brocaded in gold and jewels. An empress was buried (around a.d. 400) in cloth of gold that, when melted down in A.D. 1544, is said to have yeilded 36 pounds of gold."

Don't ask! I don't know, but i hope she was no longer in the dress when they melted it down, or who did it! 

Jean

[Jonathan]

'Do we still have the power we possessed in 1961?'

Good question, Ella. Would it be any kind of answer to say that the U.S. is now both stronger and weaker? The Cold War proved to be too costly for the Soviet Union. Years from now will the historian say that the U.S. also was exhausted by that 'war'? Communism was defeated. Can the U.S. survive the excesses of Capitalism? What kind of future is there in debt management?

Thanks for the reference, Frybabe. Is the Lord Acton quote going to have you reexamining your cherished ideas, wondering about their parentage?

[Frybabe]

Lord Acton: 'Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of ideas.'

Is the Lord Acton quote going to have you reexamining your cherished ideas, wondering about their parentage?

Oh, I don't think so in most cases, Jonathan. I say I don't think so simply because I know I am not going to look up the context of every quote or sound bite I run across. There are way too many, especially these days. It is, however, nice to run across the context from which a quote is taken. In the case of the power corrupts quote, knowing the context really doesn't change its impact. It is a truism (is that the word I want?) that covers many more areas than Pope and King. In other cases the context does matter. One quote taken out of context can cause all kinds of problems for businesses or products, and people. I really do get irritated with the media when I discover they have taken things out of context. They seem to do it often.