Author Topic: Non-Fiction  (Read 439730 times)

mabel1015j

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2520 on: July 01, 2013, 01:00:35 PM »
 

TO NONFICTION BOOK TALK

What are you reading?  Autobiographies, biographies, history, politics?

Tell us about the book; the good and the bad of it. 

Let's talk books!


Discussion Leader: HaroldArnold



I'm not saying there are fewer drinkers. I'm saying that, i think, there is less accepting of public drunkeness. We all kind of sneer at celebrities being arrested for DUI, it's not "appropriate behavior" any more. There are far fewer comedians doing pretend drunkeness, except on SNL. It's just not considered funny any more. If someone at a party is obviously drunk and out of control, people make murmuring negative statements and, i think, cocktail parties have become passe for mature adults.......or am i not running in the right crowd?

JeanneP

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  • Sept 2013
Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2521 on: July 01, 2013, 01:07:26 PM »
We are not of that generation any more .lot more home drinkers because of the rules being made. I did  work at the sport stadium for the football games on the ticket doors. On big games when there are Tailgate parties it's awful. Got so bad I quit .

Frybabe

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2522 on: July 02, 2013, 07:03:48 AM »
Gave up on The Fatal Shore. There was no way I was going to get through the book, even with a renewal, right now. This is a book to buy and read slowly, not one for marathon reading with a time limit.

Jonathan

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2523 on: July 02, 2013, 09:37:33 PM »
There's something wistful about your post, Frybabe.

Hughes' Barcelona  is another marathon. I've been enjoying it for years and still not through it. I love taking it off the shelf, opening it at random to enjoy a stunning illustration (even an illiterate could enjoy this book, imagining all kinds of things into the pictures), or reading a few pages and feeling rewardingly cultured for my effort.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2524 on: July 03, 2013, 10:51:56 AM »
More riveting than a spy novel or expose - I started it too late last night to read it through but that is what I wanted and will stop everything to finish it this morning.

Wave by Sonali Deraniyagala

Family from London that goes back each year to spend Christmas with family in Sri Lanka - The Tsunami came while they were at a beach front hotel with her parents - lost is her husband, 2 boys and parents - she is the only one to survive - it is written like a stream of consciousness and her story telling builds as the wave till it settles down like the backwater where she was wrapped around a tree to exhausted to even answer those looking for survivors. She spends days and weeks and months wanting to stay suspended in the world of confusion that was her experience while being pushed and washed inland so that she will not have to face and acknowledge the death of her family. The book is not big - a miracle she could write her account of her experience and relay to us her years of healing that is not maudlin or sentimental in her telling.  She and her husband are/were professional people - she shares her thoughts that can be funny and sarcastic - her story includes healing, meeting and marrying a Cambridge professor. Together they have a child.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

mabel1015j

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2525 on: July 03, 2013, 12:57:38 PM »
The two history channels are having interesting programming today and tomorrow and Booktv has an interesting schedule from tomorrow thru the weekend.

http://booktv.org/Schedule.aspx

Jean

Frybabe

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2526 on: July 03, 2013, 08:27:38 PM »
I note that Those Angry Days is listed for 5am on July 5. AM? I doubt the cats can have me up by then. Hopefully, it will be repeated.

I received my Roku box replacement this morning. After I got everything hooked up and reregistered the box, I noticed among the new channel listings another book review/author interview channel. I haven't looked at it yet. The other one is sponsored by Simon and Shuster.

CallieOK

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2527 on: July 03, 2013, 08:50:53 PM »
I've written a reminder to myself to set the DVD to record "Those Angry Day's at 4:00 a.m. Central Time on Friday morning!  :D

ginny

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2528 on: July 11, 2013, 09:20:17 AM »
I'm reading a wonderful new book by Tim Parks called Italian Ways. It's a very evocative and true to life description of  train travel in Italy. If you've ever taken the train in Italy or you wondered what it would be like it's great  for armchair travelers.  I'm only halfway through it --he's definitely got some prejudices and he's definitely got some anger, but it reminds  me of Paul Theroux a little bit. I'm really enjoying it.


Jonathan

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2529 on: July 11, 2013, 05:01:15 PM »
Sounds interesting, Ginny. I'll watch for it. Why the anger? Are the trains not running on time. I thought Mussolini had that fixed.

As a matter of fact, I'm about to take off for Italy. Well, the book I'm about to read has its setting in Italy. John Cornwell's A Thief In The Night. You all remember that mystery? The strange death of Pope John Paul I, a month after being elected to that high office, in 1978. What was it, it asks on the cover. Heart attack? Murder? Divine Mystery?

Crime in high places? It boggles the mind to think it goes that high. Conceived in Heaven!

ginny

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2530 on: July 12, 2013, 08:15:30 AM »
I don't know why he's angry, I hope to find out.  He (I'm only half way thru) seems a tad misanthropic at this point, and he does keep making characterizations of the South, that is, those Italians from the South of Italy. I mean they can't be all thicked necked and buzz cut. I personally love the south of Italy.

I am not sure punctuality is always a hallmark of Italian trains.  :)

However I read that the last part of the book takes place IN the South of Italy and is very positive, so I don't know what to think.  He's British, and has  lived in Verona I believe, for  30 years so he's not a tourist like I am (tho I never have understood what's so bad about a "tourist)."   That one point alone would make a great discussion,  it's always irritated me. Not talking about the Ugly American types,  just those who want to experience what they can. Are there grades of "tourists?"

You find everywhere those... I won't use the word snobs...., who keep on about how they want to live like the natives do and not just be a "tourist," but the way they accomplish that seems the epitome of being  touristy to me. Maybe I don't know what a "tourist" is?   I mean surely we don't have to renounce our citizenship to feel we haven't been somewhere  or seen something?

A Thief in the Night sounds very interesting, is it a mystery? That is, how is it categorized?
 

Tomereader1

  • Posts: 1868
Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2531 on: July 17, 2013, 11:04:38 AM »
I don't read a "lot" of non-fiction, but once in awhile some title intrigues me.  Spotted on the library shelf "Hello, Gorgeous" a biography of Barbra Streisand by Wm. Mann.  It is a 500+ pager, and although I'm just getting into it, it seems to be a terrific portrait of Barbra with all her quirks.  I wholeheartedly admire and appreciate her as a "singer and entertainer".  Listen carefully (and not just once) to any of her recordings and hear the perfectionism she's so famous for; breathing, inflection. 
The reading of a fine book is an uninterrupted dialogue in which the book speaks and our soul replies.


André Maurois

JeanneP

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  • Sept 2013
Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2532 on: July 17, 2013, 11:32:57 AM »
I had forgotten about BS book. Better check the library.  Bet a long waiting.

JeanneP

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  • Sept 2013
Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2533 on: July 17, 2013, 11:38:25 AM »
No other names on the list. Don't see it in LP.  That is a lot pages.  Can most probably skip over some of it.

Tomereader1

  • Posts: 1868
Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2534 on: July 17, 2013, 12:32:24 PM »
In large print, you would not be able to pick up and hold the book.  It is 500+ pages, plus about 20 pages of notes at the end.
The reading of a fine book is an uninterrupted dialogue in which the book speaks and our soul replies.


André Maurois

ginny

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2535 on: July 18, 2013, 07:58:03 AM »
That's one reason I am putting off Dan Brown, it's not comfortable reading in hardback, but I have it.

I finished reading Italian Ways by Tim Parks and really enjoyed it.  Perhaps less political musings might have been useful. He's apparently quite important, I had never heard of him.

The last part of the book is on train travel thru Sicily, and its truly Italian ways. I  enjoyed that armchair experience but after reading it I may have to go do Sicily another way, someday,  if I actually go at all; it sounds like Lawrence of Arabia going across the desert. Really.


Trains which don't run, which aren't on the schedule, which take hours to go 100 miles.

Hair pin turns on busses, dangerous bus driving, (I would love to go on the train which crosses on the ferry boat tho. I think, tho the bit about no air conditioning for hours in the hold....apparently it sits on sidings too)... it sounds like a brave new world out there, I'm not sure, however, that I am up to  it.

And Parks did it in 2012. But he does capture the Italian insouciance.

He is also obsessed with their spotting him as a non Italian! It really irritates him, how they immediately speak English when they hear his Italian. They do that to me, too, I've given up actually, but I don't care: he does..

He's been there 30 years, apparently is fluent in Italian which I am laughably not,  and wants to be taken for Italian. He keeps saying "my country." I don't know why I  have such problems with Ex Pats. Usually fleeing taxes tho there are lots of high minded excuses. He does make the point that he does pay Italian taxes which I thought were horrendous.  I don't know why he makes that point: that he's not like the others? I thought Sophia Loren does not live in Italy (or does she?) because OF the taxes. Confusing.

He  liked Sicily because they took him AS Italian or that is,  they addressed him in Italian.

So as in all things, travel is individualized. I wonder why his "my country," is not Britain?

JoanK

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2536 on: July 19, 2013, 03:28:01 PM »
When I lived in Israel, I learned to tell a block away what country a person came from. And anyone could tell a block away that I was an American, even after I'd lived there three years and spoke not-too-bad Hebrew. He's an egotist if he thinks he can get away with passing as Italian.

PatH

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2537 on: July 19, 2013, 08:23:39 PM »
When I lived in France (Strasbourg) in the late 60s, my one success was being mistaken for a native of the Midi.  The accent of the Midi is really sneered at by everyone who is from somewhere "better", so what that was really saying was "I guess maybe she's French, but her accent is so horrible she must be from the Midi".  I thought it was pretty funny.

It isn't just nationalities you can tell from a block away.  One man I worked for claimed he could tell a chemist at a distance, and sometimes which subspecialty.  I found that to be sort of true when going on college visits with a daughter.  I would sit in on classes, and once while waiting for a chemistry prof to show up, I saw a group of professors in identical dark grey suits, and instantly picked out the chemist.  How?  I don't know, but I was right.

ginny

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2538 on: July 19, 2013, 09:03:18 PM »
Oh how interesting!

Yes he seems  very egotistical, actually. Or sad. Perhaps he really wants to fit in and be taken for an Italian.

I was once taken for a German by a German official  on the train from Rome to Munich. He, in fact, had the little Bavarian family sharing the compartment absolutely rigid and nervous, and the father, who till that point had been much in control, a little king of his little family in the compartment, actually sweating. The papers were presented to this official and he was not pleased. Quite a bit of German ensued, the official (the train was full of inspectors and officials when it crossed the border), was bristling and definitely displeased. His voice was  raised, arms were  waving and suddenly the father cried out  AH!! Dis (pointing at me, everybody looked at me)  is not mine SISTER!

Sister is not a German word, is it? But that's what he said, and the official turned to me sharply (he could have asked initially for my passport, but didn't),  and I handed him my passport. Nervous laughter all around by the family.

Sister? I was old enough to be his mother. I know I had blonde hair and blue eyes and a German nose but that's ridiculous. (I was rather proud of it tho).  I've had that reaction everywhere I've gone in Germany, every time, except for the time I was told I looked Danish.
 
This last summer on a trip to Germany I made the great mistake,  which will never be repeated,  of boarding train during rush hour and a  a Bistro car to boot. Bad mistake.  So I had to join 3 others at a table if I wanted to sit down. When I opened my mouth in English to ask for a coke I wish you could have seen the shock and dropped jaws on the three people and the waiter, apparently I DO look German. hahahaa


JeanneP

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  • Sept 2013
Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2539 on: July 20, 2013, 01:56:10 PM »
Now I have always been very good at telling a persons nationality. Even if it goes back a few generations. Getting harder now, specially in the US because they are beginning to mix. Use to be ethnic areas were people married inside them.  I can still do it when in Europe. Going to change there soon.  They are saying that in 50 years there will be no more redheads or blondes .( natural) sure to still be the bottle stuff around.

marjifay

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2540 on: July 31, 2013, 10:43:12 AM »
I'm reading WHY DOES THE WORLD EXIST? AN EXISTENTIAL DETECTIVE STORY.  (275 PP, 2013)  It's not the easiest book I've read lately. But I'm certainly finding it to be an interesting book. The author takes you on a journey which tackles the old question of "Why is there something instead of nothing." This is something I've always wondered about and the author gives us the answers of some of today's leading philosophers and scientists who all have their own fascinating take on the problem.

Marge
"Without books, history is silent, literature dumb, science crippled, thought and speculation at a standstill."  Barbara Tuchman

mabel1015j

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2541 on: July 31, 2013, 01:23:04 PM »
I'm reading two very different, but both interesting books.


Kate Remembered - Scott Berg; a memoir of Kathryn Hepburn. It's great how you can just hear Kate talking as he recounts his conversations with her.

Ready for a Brand New Beat: How "Dancing in the Street" became the Anthem for a Changing America. - Mark Kurlanski. It's an interesting look at rock n roll, integretion, the youth of the 50s and 60s and how it all goes together.

Mark Kurlanski, as you may know, is a very esoteric writer. You may have read his Cod or Saltor 1968. I liked Salt, but gave up n Cod after about 50 pages and i used 1968 in my course on the 50s, 60s and 70s. I believe its sub-title is "the year that changed the world."

Jonathan

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2542 on: July 31, 2013, 02:42:07 PM »
I can believe that Scott Berg's book on Kathryn Hepburn is enjoyable to read. He does have a great style of writing about his subject. I'm reading his biography of Charles Lindbergh. Marvellous subject. Very touching to read how serious Lindberg was in trying to keep his country out of war.

Tomereader1

  • Posts: 1868
Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2543 on: July 31, 2013, 03:35:26 PM »
Nazi sympathizer lindberg
The reading of a fine book is an uninterrupted dialogue in which the book speaks and our soul replies.


André Maurois

Jonathan

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2544 on: August 01, 2013, 09:32:30 AM »
It's true. Lindbergh did take a lesson from the Nazis. How to make his country strong. How to prepare it for battle.

Jonathan

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2545 on: August 01, 2013, 09:43:07 AM »
Are you thinking of the medal that Lindbergh accepted from Goering? Shucks, Lindbergh got medals from everybody. Including a Canadian medal with the King's face stamped on one side, and the Prince of Wales on the other. Did that make Lndbergh a royalist?

Jonathan

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2546 on: August 01, 2013, 09:49:06 AM »
Rich and poor. The High and Mighty. Joe six-pack. Awe-struck teenagers.  Everybody wanted to be seen with Lindbergh. And his sympathys went out to everybody.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2547 on: August 01, 2013, 12:03:05 PM »
That was a peek into my mother's youthful fantasy crush - in her photo album she had a photo of Lindbergh next to his plane the Spirit of St. Louis. Good looking - a bit fay compared to my father but he must have had a strong character to attempt crossing the ocean in that plane.

In the thirties most folks were against the war - but it was little talked about except in the German communities as we were beginning to hear stories that were not fun from about '37 on - but we still never dreamed we would be in the war.

It is amazing how we are not satisfied looking at a whole man but rather caricature someone - even Hitler who now we only see him as a monster that he was but he also did many good things like designing one of the most successful cars that we had movies featuring and for years was the first car for most college age kids. He designed the Volkswagen Beetle as the "people's car" in the early thirties when most of the west was still deep in the depression. The depression may have been officially over by about '35 or '36 but most lower income families were still struggling on the cusp of poverty and wondering hobos were still the norm till about 1940. In that depressed economy no one wanted a war. We still believed the oceans protected us.

Alex S. Perry, Jr says, "Had Hitler been the kind of man history says he was and had he captured the British army at Dunkirk, which he could easily have done and should have done, he could have written the peace ticket without invading Britain. Churchill's worried son Randolph asked Churchill a few days after he became the prime minister how could he expect to win this war. Churchill replied, "I shall drag the United States in.""

I think over the years folks have written their version of history as they try to come to grips with the holocaust. And yet, when you look at the article written in 1912 "If I Were Kaiser" the entire program for WWII was laid out and originated when Bismark united Germany in the nineteenth century including the Jewish "Question". - here is a copy - http://www.h-net.org/~german/gtext/kaiserreich/class.html

Lindbergh was not alone believing they could avoid war. As I recall the Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain attempted to negotiate for peace but it was Churchill who wanted war.

Hindsight is great and had we known the system Hitler would use to achieve the program as outlined in the 1912 published piece none of us would have avoided the inevitable - as I recall our aversion to war was so great we would not accept a ship full of Jews escaping Europe so that they were sent back to face their horrors. In affect most, if not all of us, were Lindberghs.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

JeanneP

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  • Sept 2013
Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2548 on: August 01, 2013, 08:16:03 PM »
I hate took even think of what my life would have been like had Churchill.not stood ground.  I saw what had to be done to hold them back at Dunkirk . Saw them coming to our doors to tell the man will not be coming home.  Taking even the smallest craft boats to get the men back into UK from Dunkirk.
From both ww1and ww2. My family lost most our family men.. Having let Germany win that war would have changed the whole of Europe ..the US also.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2549 on: August 02, 2013, 01:00:54 AM »
Yes, thank goodness for Churchill's determination - I do not think the book under discussion is about who was right or wrong but rather what happened -

Some very good people were trying to keep us out of war - The US only got in as a result of Pearl Harbor although, some young men were going to either Canada or England to fly before we as a nation entered the war -

There are books indicated that Pearl Harbor was a set up to get the US into the war because the majority in the nation did not want to be involved - War in Europe was considered far away over the ocean and had nothing to do with us. That almost immediately changed after Pearl Harbor although, quietly for a few years before Pearl Harbor there were government internment and deportation of Germans in the US.

My best friend's Uncle had only come from Germany a few years before and in '39 he was taken by plainclothes men with badges - I was young and did not know what branch of the government came for him but I do not think the CIA existed yet so it was probably the FBI that was pretty new as well. All to say the nation and many leaders may have been against entering the war but some officials must have seen Germany from a different perspective.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Jonathan

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2550 on: August 02, 2013, 10:39:31 AM »
'but it was Churchill who wanted war'

Barb, you should be posting this in the discussion. You have some knowledgable  views on the great historical problem under discussion. The article,
If I were the Kaiser, written in 1912, by Heinrich Class, president of the Pan-German League, makes for very interesting reading. Not only was there a 'Jewish Question, but also a Polish Question, and a French Question, and a Russian Question, etc, etc.

Churchill, the standard-bearer for the English-speaking world, got his war. Diplomatic means weren't his strong suit. Thank God. It's like Jeanne says:

'I hate to even think of what my life would have been like had Churchill.not stood his ground.'

mabel1015j

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2551 on: August 02, 2013, 03:04:34 PM »
Ohhhhh, J. edgar Hoover's FBI!?! Scary agency! Let's not forget the Kennedy patriarch who was fired by FDR for not having the right sentiments.

JeanneP

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  • Sept 2013
Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2552 on: August 02, 2013, 07:41:51 PM »
Yes, US need to get into the European War in order to be able To Use. Australia, NZ and other Commonwealth Island in that area.  Without them after Pearl Harbour the USA would have felt more of what wars are like. They would have gotten Into Hawaii for sure.

We all needed each other back then. Fact it is even the same today.

However I don't see any reason for getting involved in the Middle East wars.  None would come to our aid if we needed them. For centuries they fought their own without any interference

PatH

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2553 on: August 02, 2013, 07:43:16 PM »
Aside from If I were the Kaiser, what about Mein Kampf?  A spy story I liked had one character saying Why are people surprised at what Hitler does?  Why don't they just read Mein Kampf?  He spells it all out there.

Is this true?  It was published in 1925, so that would be a clear warning.  I haven't ever tried to read it, it's apparently pretty unreadable, irrational and raving.  Does anyone know what he says in the book, whether he gives a good idea of what he intended?

JeanneP

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2554 on: August 02, 2013, 07:50:36 PM »
In this time now. Hitler would have been checked for insanity. Lot more now known about it.  Lots of interbreeding in him I believe. Like sisters having children with brothers. Cousins marrying each other.  Must have been hard him knowing who his father really was.  Now a good brain test could be done.  One little MRI.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2555 on: August 02, 2013, 09:16:05 PM »
Think PatH what it was like in the twenties - first in the late nineteenth century roughly half of all 5- to 19-year-olds were enrolled in school. In the first 30 years of the twentieth century the blacks attending school stayed at the same percentage but not only did birth rate fall for whites but their attending school only increased to 51% - only 5% were college educated. At the time Germany has less literacy than the US - there was a craftsmenship program where boys from the age of as early as 8 but most at age 12 left home and spent 2 year periods living with a master craftsmen and then starting at 16 you roamed the countryside seeking employment that included board. Those from noble families were educated and there was a large Bourgeois in trade who were mostly Jewish.

People were pretty much only concerned about what was happening within their national boarders - if you saw the movie "Red" that recently was shown again on TV you can see the effort that went into a movement and the politics of the ruthless - Hitler moved in on a nation reeling and blamed for WWI in incomprehensible inflation - the rest of the western literate world was in Jazz Clubs with the likes of F. Scott Fitzgerald.

And so who would be reading Mein Kampf - probably only those who were thinking as he was thinking - and remember the Jews were the butt of all that was wrong for generations and as much a "problem" as Blacks were here during this time in history.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2556 on: August 02, 2013, 09:31:39 PM »
I am thinking that like us - we are pretty much an educated curious lot - and yet, I doubt many of us read or was familiar with If I were the Kaiser - I shared it only to help us understand the plan for what happened during WWII was not new made up by Hitler - the plan included in If I were The Kaiser was the thinking among the leaders of Germany for a long time.

To them they were trying to unify Germany and to bring back to Germany all those who emigrated elsewhere. They needed more land to accommodate the returning Germans and they likened themselves to early times after Charlemagne when Europe was broken into three sections for each son and the land that is essentially Germany now was one parcel - that is one of the Reich's -

Remember the Nazis were saying they were the Third Reich - the time of Charlemagne was the first and there is a dispute which was the 2nd Reich. Some say when Otto in the 10th century gathered all and became the first Emperor and others say it was when Bismark unified Germany in the nineteenth century - all to say the 3rd Reich was to be a united Germany that included Prussia, the Slavic nations and the area along the Rhine including what is Alsace-Lorraine. Any area that did NOT have a direct relationship to Rome but to the Goths and the other tribes north of Rome that threatened Rome and that Charlemagne had included in his Holy Roman Empire.   

The rest of Europe never wanted to see a united Germany especially they were afraid of Prussia that was a powerhouse in ability, raw material and could easily overtake all of Europe 

Here is a copy of Mein Kampf - a literate work not sounding like written by a crazy man but worked out in logic based in different conclusions than our own experience or view of Germany's experience - reading it in light of the holocaust looking for an explanation for that madness is really hard to find in Mein Kampf - http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2557 on: August 03, 2013, 10:53:29 AM »
Barb, in the quest to find its origins and identity, Germans turned to Tacitus's Germania as one of the main sources. A whole 40 pages long, it was used from the renaissance on in attempts to define a national identity and find those origins.  A Most Dangerous Book by Christopher Krebs is about the "golden booklet" and how was used to it help promote these ends. The Washington Post had a synopsis. 

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2011-07-06/entertainment/35237087_1_germania-roman-historian-tacitus-blue-eyes

BarbStAubrey

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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2558 on: August 03, 2013, 02:13:35 PM »
Oh dear he has an ax to grind - he needs to either read his history or stop trying to make a name for himself by tapping into our preconceived idea of the barbaric nature of Germany - there was far more than the gathering of pagan tribes - this germania went on for several hundred years and the Popes were in on it from the beginning -

Freybabe this is an area of history that has been with me for years - not only is my library bulging with at least 2 dozen books that three fourths are about the various tribes on through the middle ages with a forth about Prussia and Bismark but it also connects to my research on what is called the Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity - also, there is a book by that title. I belong to the German club here in Austin that meets in the old school that was the first free school before public education in Austin. We are always sharing our latest reads and findings.

Long before Charlemagne, Julius Ceaser explains why he had not conquered and colonized Germania as he had Gaul. - he said, the land so thick with forests contained unicorns and other mysterious animals even though merchants traveled the length and breadth of the area there is a famous battle 'Teutoburg Forest' where Hermann defeated the Romans -

I do not know this professors exposure however, anyone studying from a French viewpoint is going to compare Germany negatively. French historians claim they were rooted in classical Greece and Rome - Augustus 63BC to 16AD established the Roman strategy towards Germania which was followed for Centuries that included the line of defense along the Rhine and the Danube - The Frankish king Mirobaudes was both the enemy and a servant of the Roman emperor - many of the solders were in service in the Roman army and adopted the paganism of the Romans, others converted to Christianity and others to the Jewish faith. the Goths especially became Christian and were the first to translate the Bible into Gothic. They subscribed to the heresy at the time that said, Jesus was a co-equal with God the father and was merely the best of human beings - that viewpoint, held by many groups later persecuted, was condemned at the Council of Nicea in 325.

It is after the Council of Nicea that the Roman Emperors loose their power.  Christian Goths were persecuted by the pagan elite and Constantine, who opened the Council of Nicea welcomed them. Constantine is the beginning of the Pope's becoming the power house of Rome rather than the Roman Emperors.

The Germani by Tacitus was only published in 1497 that was based on an intense hatred of the 'French' and the 'Venial' Romans. Those hatreds run through out German history and came to a boil with the behavior of Napoleon's occupying forces which soured Germany against the impact of the French Revolution. Again in settling things in Vienna the Germans wanted to unify but Britain and Russia where afraid of Prussia that some 20 years later did create an economic association that unified the thirty-nine German states. That is when Germany tried to define itself and thought anyone who spoke German was part of Germany - the identity crisis continued till Bismarck unified using the slogan 'Blood and Iron'.

Back to the beginning that this Harvard Prof is not talking about - The various groups whose histories I have either read or are on my shelf to read are - the Goths - the Christian Goths whose leader by the way is Reiks and in German, Reich means empire - the Huns who became an ally - the Franks to the west along with the Alemanni - the Persians get into it attacking the Goths - Attila absorbs many of the Goths and expels the Visigoths - there are the Vandals, Sueves and Alans from Silesia - Attila attacks the Gauls - he marches into northern Italy holding court in Milan and Pope Leo the Great sends an envoy begging him not to attack Rome with the warning that after the Goths sacked Rome 40 years earlier their leader died - Attila died of a stroke on yet another wedding night so Rome is spared. The Huns are absorbed into the mix of essentially tribes each holding various views on God and the king of the Visigoths comes along to codify laws to unify all this mess but still he was no match for Clovis and this is where it gets interesting.


The Frankish King Cloves fells in battle the king of the Visigoths - Clovis, a Merovingian, trace their royal lineage to a mythical sea monster that gives them magical power so they alone can be the Merovingian King to control most of Gaul - the blood line is magical and can make crops grow by their walking in the fields and they could sing bird calls and tame wild beasts - Clovis had slaughtered all rival Frankish chiefs and was king of all the Franks. As a Christian he allies himself with Gallo-Rome and with intermarriage the Franks are no longer a Germanic Tribe but a European people. The Franks found monasteries and churches as capital investments - they appointed and dismiss priests - destroying the acceptance of the church among the people but preserving enough for the Carolingians. After his death the Merovingians become fat and lazy with his sons murdering each other -

The Vandals stay as a German tribe and are vying for power - The Irish monks, the Anglo Saxons, Saint Boniface, the Moslems, Frisians, Alemanni and the Bavarians all get in on this till finely, Pepin the Short, a Carolingian uses the Church as his trump card over all this magical blood. He gets Pope Zcharian with the Frankish Bishop to anoint him King. Pepin is the first King to rule by the grace of God.

From then on the Monarch and the Church were mutually dependent - The administration is centered in the Germanic district and the kings agents are elevated to judges looking after the affairs of church and crown. All the scribal and archival duties are handled by clerics because no laymen knew Latin or were even literate, including the kings. These judgeships become hereditary. Voila the Curia that runs the Church today. And since Pepin had to negotiate with Constantinople without equal authority he was given a greater title - soon after it breaks apart for reasons of ancient rights and privileges till Charlemagne revives the Roman empire and unites most of Europe.

And so the pride that Hitler leaned on was in the independent, unshakeable, brave who were considered morally upright, modest, chaste, honest, and hospitable early German tribes as opposed to the French and the Italian nature and morality. If you read some of the heroes that came out of WWI - German heroes that we recognize as such like Count Von Luckner called the Sea Devil who kept out of range from command during part of WWI and was an all round good guy. The Count had the morality and characteristics that Hitler hoped to re-ignite by calling for a Third Reich.  
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Re: Non-Fiction
« Reply #2559 on: August 03, 2013, 02:17:12 PM »
Frybabe if you want one book that will give a good history of Germany from these early days to almost the present that seems to be less bias than any so far - it is the Cambridge Illustrated History of Germany by Martin Kitchen. There is another great historian but his books start at $159.00 each.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe