Author Topic: The Library  (Read 2080905 times)

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22440 on: April 30, 2021, 05:54:25 PM »








The Library


Our library  is open 24/7; the welcome mat is always out.
Do come in from daily chores and spend some time with us.

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22441 on: April 30, 2021, 05:56:41 PM »


Dana, we were apparently posting together on that last one,  I'm just now seeing it,  and I agree with everything you just said, actually.

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22442 on: May 01, 2021, 04:08:18 PM »
I feel like my head was a ball in a pinball machine - the 3rd chapter is so full of errors I can hardly believe - do they not teach Shakespeare in English Schools?

First Shakespeare's mother - yes, from an ancient line the Arden's however, not the wealthy Downton Abby kind of wealthy farmer - he attended King Edward school because his father, a glove maker, had worked himself to be an aldermen which allowed his boys to attend the school that were in the same rooms the aldermen meetings took place and both he and his younger brother had to leave school when William still had two years more education before graduating because the father lost his position as he also lost his money so they were poor.

As to the mother, yes, the Arden's go back to a Saxon Chief however the wealth was in land. Her father owned the land where her husband lived and worked and when her father died he bequeathed the land to Mary - she was nineteen when he died - so VWs inference of wealth and position is way off... however, it is true William's sister Anne did not attend school, instead was home learning the skills of milking, cheese-making, animal husbandry, small farming, crop selection, bee keeping, honey extraction, fruit tree growing, harvesting, jam making, bread making, cooking, possibly weaving but knitting for sure, if not sewing how to hire and oversee someone who seasonally came to sew, how to hire help, how to keep the books -

There was a PBS documentary some years ago showing the skills William Shakespeare's mother and sister would have had to know and engage in which were demanding and was an education of its own. I remember while watching comparing to what was taught at A&M and thought women were as educated as those who attend college for a similar education in farming and ranching not including the home economics required to run a home only their education was not formal and it did not include languages or history that boys who attended school were learning.

We read all this back during some of our Shakespeare discussions and at first after what VW had to say I thought maybe we missed something but reviewed and sure enough our study during our discussions had been on track - As to getting his start in theater holding horses etc. when he first arrived in London - could be I have never read anything about how he started - where as published every few years is the latest findings from those engaged with the intensive examination of his work and the one play they believe is his first, Two Gentleman from Verona they also surmise he wrote the play before he went to London -

Shakespeare scholars compare language used in the plays to the changing phrases popular during his lifetime as well as his dexterity and sophistication using language - also there was a book published in the sixteenth century after he died that is used as a bible since the author has listed the plays in chronological order.  All to say Shakespeare was writing before he went to London, while he had to work since his father had lost his money and position and he married very young and had a child - yes, he had opportunity that given the same circumstance his sister would not have but, it was far from the ease suggested by VW.

Then VW's premise that there were no women poets before whatever year VW suggested - baloney - if nothing else there is Hildegard von Bingen whose harmonies would have been sung in church even during VW's time although maybe not in the Church of England - Bingen was only one of many female religious who wrote - Also, I have a book of only defiant poetry from Italian women with poems going back the 12 century - Sure in the 1980s there was a push to put between covers mostly the women's poetry that complained of their lot in life or poetry about some sad personal experience like the death of a child however, there was other women's poetry - Granted not as popular but frankly the subject matter was seldom a shared understanding of life between men and women much less did I ever come across a tongue in cheek type of poem written by a women, just as my sister found women philosophers going back to a time before Christ, and yes, the power structure made it difficult for women - But to say there was none makes it difficult to follow her argument as with her other miss-understandings - and so, where I agree with some of her argument I'm quickly confused with her, to put it kindly, inaccuracies. Frankly yes, I assumed, she should know better about some of this and she was simply being selective and blowing things up for affect.   

Now this entire bit about women being sequestered and controlled and battered - the idea of Battered Woman needing protection was not even acknowledged much less women required help to get out of a bad situation, there had not been police training to recognize and protect women till the 1980s - Marriage was still taught by most religious as being forever no matter the circumstances and where divorce was more acceptable in the 60s, 70s, and for sure by the 80s not as a Catholic -

Oh we can all have our opinions now about how unfair and unjust and, and, and, but that is the problem reading history - while reading, it is difficult to put yourself in the culture and traditions of the historical time we are reading about. Personally I've had to work hard to separate the church influences that upholds traditional views when I bump into unexpected and challenging experiences - recently seeing how the change in society left a cousin in a situation where she lost her home as a direct result of following the 'rules' traditionally expected of women shook me so that I spent much of the past almost 2 years questioning, being angry at the church -

My thoughts changed when I finally realized, the religious as children attend the same schools with the same curriculum as everyone else - their values are formed by their homelife, school life, society and the culture of the day that they bring with them to the seminary so that their life experience is the screen so to speak of how they understand theology rather than this idea they arrive at the seminary a blank slate and are filled with theology therefore, they were/are walking instruments able to address all Christian as well as secular questions. Now the French novels and even some Italian novels make sense - they saw priests as flawed. One of the central characters in Victor Hugo's Les Mis is equally flawed if not more flawed than the good Knight. The churches, regardless the denomination carry forth these traditional view of women.

Needless to say AD (after divorce) I had my plate full with learning to navigate life. Thank god I had worked for a few years so that was not the struggle as it was for most women at the time - however I was asked to leave the Real Estate Company I had been associated with because of the circumstances of the divorce - We worked with high end clients and of course they could not have an agent who divorced because of pedophilia - I also lost all but one friend and a few years later two old friends did cross back across the line so to speak - I could go on with a litany of losses all because of another’s ‘flaws’ - attending meetings for survivors in the late 80s I saw most women did stay married and supported the men over their daughter - my assumption was because they had nothing to fall back on or they could not cope with who they were living with or for some there is no one, no family and in fact at that time most family members, as mine, did not believe - hurting so bad these men are charming and that is how they hook you - and that charm kicks in when you are at your most vulnerable - so yes, women's life is not what it is only because of male aggression and control -

About 10 years AD - still questioning how someone could be educated in church schools and become so painfully depraved to damage their own girl child and of course the entire issue of women as second class citizens - I spent at least 5 years researching to get some sort of answers - how and when did this all start - was it only about male aggression - I needed to make some sense out of what to me was incomprehensible - I was living as if in a fun house with those mirrors that make you look tall, fat, skinny you name it according to the mirror - that is how I tried to deduce with each person I met what mirror to present as me - I just needed to make some sense out of what was beyond my words - I felt raw and needed at least a trail out of the madness and so again, I'm hooking into VW with my own experiences and I get her exasperation railing against the unfairness she is sharing in chapter 3.

OK later - bad lightening storm again and I need to find a few of the books - yes, there are shelves and shelves of them from this time of searching for how women ended up being controlled - there are a couple thoughts that I found enlightening and I do need to make a pot of coffee and get my head together on this because I did find some explanation that I can appreciate VW would not have researched and therefore she made assumptions.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22443 on: May 01, 2021, 04:15:06 PM »
sorry about all this 'True Confession' but the book hits my experience as it may be hitting some of yours. It is all history now, Virginia Woolf's history and our history but it does give us a window to sort out what VW is saying - bless her heart she had a time of it and as a novel it works but this novel is using to many sentences that border on being a documentary or opinion piece. OK bad lightening, really need to shut down the computer...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22444 on: May 02, 2021, 02:28:20 PM »
Oh oh - I took her question seriously - too seriously - What conditions are necessary for the creation of works of art? finishing up chapter 3 followed by reading into chapter 4 it has become obvious if I am following the book rather than taking seriously her questions and mentally arguing with her solutions then I am attempting to solve the problem and convince her, (she is dead sheesh) that her solutions are not the answer. This is nuts -

I do not agree with many of ideas of cause - I think talking allowance and expecting conditions that involve no struggle are child like and all the book has done is rile up my past, memories I had put behind me 

How in the world so many women got caught up in this book 35 years ago holding it up as an iconic read towards women's lib - no wonder we still have pink hat wearing marchers - VW suggests nothing about how to use meager security that is more than the average income to build future security or wealth - VW goes on and on asking and justifying how she can be taken care of (an allowance ??!!??) (For clothes??!!??) while pursuing her wants (want to be a successful not only literary artist but a successfully published literary artist) therefore, someone is supposed to take care of her needs so VW can create art...

I need to back off - she is not really looking at why women are poor she is sharing a tirade as if an adolescent complaining because she cannot spend time doing what she wants unless first she cleans up her room and helps get dinner started. I'm back to I just do not understand her - and then I realize I'm expecting to understand after all she is a grown woman and this is a book that has legs since it is still sought after nearly 100 years after its original publication.

No more tapping my memory and looking at the issue - this book is only about her view of why and her solution that in my estimation not only does not hit the mark but she continually embroiders on stories about other artists to support her viewpoint - this is not for me... 
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Dana

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22445 on: May 02, 2021, 05:14:59 PM »
I think the thing about the fact that it could rile up your past perhaps points a lot to her own state of mind when she wrote it.
I was quite struck in chapter 4 which I just read, how the first three women writers she mentions are all unhappy, "unfulfilled", and then later she says a woman can't write freely if she's immersed in her own needs.  She surely comes over as being immersed in hers.

I have just got stuck into South Riding, which Rosemary recommended, set at roughly the same time.  It's feminist too but the women are not such wilting violets.  I'm not sure if I am enjoying it, but I sure can't put it down...it reminds me I think of Graham Greene or AJ Cronin.  My recollection of reading their books is that they were able to describe the petty horriblenesses of people so vividly that you could hardly stand to read about all their nasty little habits, but yet you couldn't stop reading either.

No, I'm not impressed with Virginia Wolf and I'm seeing her book more and more as a window into herself than as a  realistic attempt to analyse womens' place in the literary, or any other, world.  But I haven't read it all yet!  (A chapter a time is all I can take.)

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22446 on: May 03, 2021, 09:25:58 AM »
What wonderful posts and reactions and what  a perfect book to set up a dialogue!

 I was reading Mary Beard this morning, (she's a Professor of Classics at the University of Cambridge, a fellow of Newnham College,  if you are not familiar with her, along with a lot of other things), and came across this thoughtful piece, which I am only including a small part of.  I think it speaks to some of the issues we're talking about here, although I don't know her position on Virginia Woolf. It does seem to speak  to my point about organizations  for any reason which are not inclusive:

https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/its-not-what-you-know-its-who-you-know-blog-post-mary-beard/

"I  am not here commenting on privileged access to power, on government sleaze, or any current allegations. If you say “should people get lucrative privileges on the basis of their connections?“, then you would find it difficult to come up with anyone to say yes. Put in those terms, the answer is obvious … but life doesn’t come in those simple terms. As usual, beneath the surface it’s a bit more complicated.

For a start, the idea that standards in public life are getting lower is ludicrous (though that is what is often implied). The old phrase that I have used as the title for this blog goes back a very long way. I remember my dad muttering it, sixty years ago – and I don’t imagine that it was new then. And when I picture the way decisions were made in any period of UK history before now, I assume that things were regularly fixed by the blokes at the club, in the changing room, over a drink (fill in at will …). So, our problem is not how to return to the standards of the past, accompanied by a good deal of breast-beating. It is how we put our higher modern standards into practice.

Then, people are a bit self-contradictory. On the one hand, we happily deplore cronyism – while on the other, we run courses on networking, and set up clubs for (eg) women in business to give them the kind of social, getting-together advantages that the men have long had. We live in a culture in which helping your friends is seen as a moral good. But we haven’t stopped to think hard enough about where the line might be drawn between that and favouritism.

This isn’t just about politics or business. It’s a matter for the academy too, even if it emerges in slightly different forms. In my subject, there would be plenty of people who would argue that, say, there was an Oxbridge cronyism that made it harder for those students who had done their doctorates elsewhere to break into the job market; that even if the Classics academy wasn’t a closed shop, then the contacts students made at big departments such as my own gave them an unfair advantage. I could put up a spirited defence to that, but I couldn’t say that it was entirely wrong...."


The entire subject of elitism and groups based on same  is interesting, to me, in a sort of detached way.


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22447 on: May 03, 2021, 03:46:45 PM »
Since reading VW everywhere I look I notice how set aside women are treated - watching PBS last night the Masterpiece about the Norwegian Princess who became a friend to Franklin D. Roosevelt during the days before the US entered the war - she too had done some marvelous work for which her husband receives the accolades - that he took even if he planned on publicly acknowledging her he delayed white taking his moment in the sun for work he did not participate in, it was all her doings.

After finishing, and I must say skimmed many a paragraph of VWs book I downloaded several Kindle versions of books that I started reading last night - on the list is Rosemary's suggestion, that Dana referenced South Rising - The story appears to have been made into a movie or maybe a TV series that I plan on watching since again a week of repeats on PBS - another book downloaded appears to be a positive story of a young newly married, I have to say girls she is so young, still in her teens, anyhow she chafes within days and questions her marriage to the young man who from the review indicates he is a proponent of patriarchy but she does something about it - story takes place deep in Appalachia, If The Creek Don't Rise which is a typical Southern saying in the rural south where there are many dry creek beds that run only in the Spring or after a storm and no money to build a bridge - a running full creek can block a trip to town or other places.

Two other's that I downloaded that I started reading were enlightening - 

I knew the church was a bedrock to male leadership, dominance and although the Christian churches try to wrap the system using other words it is all patriarchy. The Book The Making of Biblical Womanhood is so much more than a rant as the author ties real scholarship to this history of women being second class to the men. Her credentials are breathtaking - she earned her PHD in Medieval History specializing in European women, medieval and early modern England, and church history at UNC Chapel Hill and currently is an Associate Professor of History and an Associate Dean at Baylor up in Waco. She has previously served as president of the Texas Medieval Association and the Conference on Faith and History.

Her research became intense, thus this book, after her husband, who is a graduate of Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary, and the active Youth Minister was fired after he challenged church leadership over the issue of women in ministry. Not only fired but the reason was kept secret with strong oversight to be sure neither spilled the beans as he told the youth and the congregation. Barr spends time going into details of the formal and informal way the Church carries out this attitude, some of the downsides, quotes versus from the Bible that support patriarchy and several bible versus that contradict supporting female and male equality and then in a new twist to me she references, The Epic of Gilgamesh written 3 to 4 thousand years before Christ... Barr then uses parts of the story to show the women's role already established that could have been the stuff of a modern day novel.  I'm truly enjoying Barr's book that is full of as much passion, resentment, and wrath as Virginia Woolf's published diatribe however not whinny or looking for easy solutions like an allowance and a safe, secure, private space in order to get on with practicing a skill.

And finally, a book I thought was not linked to the plight of women - and there it is - Risk Management - it helped to explain why the lower salaries  - Women, yep, its their biology but also, they traditionally have the greater burden for the care of children whose needs are not set up as a calendar that a business can depend upon to build in planned adjustments - also, many women desire to be with their infant that a business has to work around that all other personal risk of lost time is equal between men and women - There are actuary tables giving value to various risks - the risk of days or time absent from the job - the risk of someone leaving - with women wanting to be home with their baby is a  decision that cannot be changed or altered by throwing more money or perks that does not work with women choosing to be a stay at home mom -

When anyone leaves the take with them the businesses investment in them, like training received that bettered the employee as much as the training made the business more successful - and so a young women presents less control to personal managers with any attempt to avoid her leaving therefore, she presents more risk in the workplace - Now being fair, how much risk and where is the break off point where the gain or her skill and devotion to the job is greater than the risk so that a balance can be achieved usually with a salary reflecting that balance -

Just another kink understanding why women receive less pay but then that ligament business calculation can be taken to the extreme and has - everyone likes a sale and if a sale price for labor can be found it will be exploited. This paying less salary to balance the risk affects those women who want to climb the ladder and not focus on children. And like so much of practiced patriarchy, the behavior is carried forward without even remembering the why or how and what the behavior was all about. 



“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22448 on: May 04, 2021, 05:47:47 AM »
I finally read Chapter 3 of Virginia's book. I'm  behind, but I was surprised, actually.

Here we have a narrative  which is organized and has paragraphs, I kept turning back to see what the difference was. Here we may have parts of the actual speech, it's coherent,  the lot of women in history, the lot of creative women, seen through Virginia's unique lens and perspective.

I think it's obvious she's talking about herself here. It's autobiographical. From the girl who might have even been the "apple of her father's eye" and what she was denied. Loads of good quotes, I copied many down. Not seeing too much positivity here. As Dana says there are other possibilities for the ending of a story of a creative woman.

Here this particular woman must go mad because of her gift and "whatever she had written would be twisted and deformed, issued from a strained and morbid imagination."

Her account of Judith Shakespeare,  who was as "adventurous, as  imaginative, as agog to see the world as he was, but she was not sent to school. She had no chance of learning grammar and logic, let alone of reading Horace and Virgil. She picked up a book now and then, one of her brother's perhaps, and read a few pages...."

That's her own story, too, right, that she is imagining for Judith?

This is a good one, "And so she goes on to spend her enthusiasm where it meets with no obstacle whatsoever..." I like that, it's quite shrewd of her. FINALLY something about her I can relate to.

But then she says things like any woman with a gift in the 16th century would have been "crazed with the torture that her gift had put her to."

And ends with  you don't need to be skilled in psychology to see that "a highly gifted girl who tried to use her gift for  poetry would have been so thwarted and hindered by other people, so tortured and pulled asunder by her own contrary..."

And so here again I think, that she's describing herself. Or certainly she is trying to relate to someone who may have suffered as she is in the past, she's relating here I think, trying to make her particular situation echo in other women (and it might have)  and she's also telling her own story and it's sad. It's really sad.

 I have read recently that they think perhaps she may have been  bipolar, and I'm not myself sure what that entails but the story here is sad. But it's not that long stream of consciousness that it has been until now. It's coherent, and organized.

Is there any record of the actual speech she gave?  (She would laugh at my even asking: "of course not, it's a woman's speech" she'd say.) But is there? After all it was given, apparently at two women's colleges.

  And if there is not, is THIS her answer to that? 









BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22449 on: May 04, 2021, 06:53:39 PM »
amazing when you think on it - the best thing that could be said about a chapter is there are paragraphs and the author may have been bipolar. Lordy but true - my friend's oldest daughter is bipolar and takes her meds - but before they figured out what was happening she was exhibiting unnatural for her sexual behavior and her everyday conversation was not as hyper as some but it was disjointed and scattered with no rhyme or reason.  And when she was down she was deeply depressed with not only woe is me but nothing she read or heard about could ever be fixed so that we were all living in an unsafe insecure world and to her maybe death would be appropriate.

I may have started The Making of Biblical Womanhood to learn more about patriarchy in the church but I have now learned more about The Epic of Gilgamesh then I ever imagined - fascinating and now to me an approachable read

Did not know there were several finds so that the original incomplete tablets found in Babylon ascribed to the 3rd or 2nd century BC were only 5 stone tablets missing half the story and later the story was found in its entirety written in either Syria or what is today Iraq sometime in the 10th to 12 century AD - and then there were quotes on the original find that indicated an even earlier version - now more recently bits and pieces if the story written on stone have been found that date back to 13th and 10th centuries BC. There are some differences but most books today are using the more popular and complete version which was found in 10 or 12 AD - So far the differences I have read about amount to words chosen rather than content changed. I found a wonderful annotated copy of the Epic as well as, free on kindle the original find in Babylonia - both translated into English.

If we use this ancient text written before the Bible and even before the Iliad as an example it appears the way to change men was to be equal to their prowess and that fostered a friendship - however, my experience is to be good at anything in the male world threatened them - although today there is far more equity then there was as recently as 30 years ago.

Changing this, I won't say unbalanced because I still see biology and childcare especially while nursing as infant, as affecting a system dependent upon predictable output - I also see a large portion of women not only no longer taking to heart much less with love and pride the role of a hands on mom but adding to the disrespect and dismissive attitude toward stay at home moms, which seems to be the answer to push themself forward in a system established by men. Where as somehow and after now having written evidence that shows how little those who care for and those who teach children receive the esteemed share of the wealth of a society for preparing generation after generation of children who become the leaders and rulers it seems to me till society truly sees the care of children as paramount to the future of a society and those who do the caring and preparation of this future as key women will continue struggling to achieve parody.

Well onward - for me the topic raised by VW's book is far more interesting to search out then her comments about how the lack of equity affected her personally. But then I always slipped away from group conversations that were all about griping regardless the gripe - affects negatively my energy level and disposition.

Sun today - I think the first time in at least 2 weeks and maybe more... I can feel the difference in how I walk and I napped more soundly...
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

PatH

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22450 on: May 05, 2021, 10:47:36 AM »
I'm still here, but behind in the reading.  I hope to get through Chapter 3 today and be back in business.

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22451 on: May 08, 2021, 09:22:06 AM »
 Well I've read Chapter 4 and here, I think, is the speech itself? And it's a good one. It takes Women Writers Throughout History (not sure why she started with the 1600's, there were others before that including women poets) whom most of us don't know, quotes them (that was the best part of the book) and then analyzes, much as we are doing here) them and their writings. I enjoyed hearing  their voices.

I WAS surprised to find them listed by "class."  I felt at one point she was CLASS obsessed and I'm not quite sure what to make of it. Were they childless? That seems to have been important too.  And then on down. Class Class Class.  Seems strange now to hear it. Possibly a little bit snobbish on the last one mentioned with her misspellings faithfully reproduced.   Possibly a little condescension in the attitude of VW there?

What did you Jane Austen fans think of her assessment of Austen vs Charlotte Bronte remarks?

Lots of good quotes.  I can see it must have been an effective speech since this book was taken from the two she gave and then elaborated on.

Not sure the theme of "you must have money and a room to write"  was particularly upheld, though it was mentioned.

Vesta

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22452 on: May 08, 2021, 04:23:12 PM »
I just read this article in The Nation about a man’s criticism of VW’s novels that I think you might find interesting.  The entire article may be found online at https://www.thenation.com/article/culture/virginia-woolf-roth-andre-aciman/

This is the title and excerpt:
Helpful Men: Defending Philip Roth, Dismissing Virginia Woolf
Like most women who write, I live my life according to the firmly stated judgments of literary men.  By Alyssa Harad 5/6/2021

“Twenty years later, I read the novels again over a summer, shocked and delighted to see them wholly anew.  You can imagine then, that it was a surprise to learn, while listening to an otherwise unremarkable interview with André Aciman, that Woolf’s novels are not very good, and are unlikely to stand the test of time. Mr. Aciman had said the journals—he called them “the diary”—and A Room of One’s Own were OK (everyone knows women only really write about their own lives), but it seemed best to be on the safe side. After all, it was impossible to deny that when I read To the Lighthouse in my 40s, it appeared to be a completely different book from the one I read in my 20s.”

I think the writer of this article, Alyssa Harad, is being sarcastic about trusting the literary judgments of men.  She came to appreciate VW’s novels on re-reading them.  Personally, I think men just don’t understand VW.
Through studying, reading, writing, and loving Latin, we step into the river of history, and there we find a deeper understanding of where we began and where we want to go.

Dana

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22453 on: May 08, 2021, 06:23:43 PM »
Maybe nobody should evaluate a book based on the "otherness" of the author.
 
 Maybe today only a woman should dare to say "this could only have been written by a woman; a man, "this could only be written by a man; a Black, a White, ....etc ...etc...

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22454 on: May 14, 2021, 06:36:29 PM »
Just last night the Governor of SC,  following apparently the guidelines from is it the CDC, (?) announced there would be no need to wear masks in public, etc. With caveats.

I wish they had waited one more day! hahaha I had to go to a million stores today and it was interesting to see who wore masks and who did not.

I have to say I don't mind the mask at all now and kind of prefer it. I have not had a sore throat or cold since I started wearing one, the pollen which coats the car with yellow no longer bothers me, and for now in crowded places and inside areas with strangers  I am going to  keep wearing one..... for a while anyway. I feel safer for some reason.

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22455 on: May 15, 2021, 09:26:27 AM »
 Thinking of Virginia Woolf this morning,  of course we all  have different gifts, but here's somebody who knows how it was to buck the traffic in a male dominant profession and what she is now doing about it for future generations:

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-57102489

Dana

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22456 on: May 15, 2021, 02:55:00 PM »
That's great!

I was sorry to see that classics has been scrapped at some Black university (?Howard) here, but I was not sure if they were actually learning Latin and Greek or if it was more of a literary course.  In any case I think its a shame.  I guess they must think it is irrelevant to them.

Speaking of Virginia Woolf....have not read any more, my phone went kaput......in the middle of an Uber call....fortunately the car came or I might still be in Houston!!  Anyway instead I finished South Riding.  Same time period, written by a feminist, lots of spunky women not looking for a room to write in....but I was thinking as I read it how much the author was obsessed by death....3 of her characters are liberated in different ways  by the knowledge of their impending deaths....then I discovered the author herself was dying as she was writing and it was published posthumously.  So that made sense!
 Also I discovered that Time and Tide, a British magazine, was a feminist journal.  This revealed to me something I did not really appreciate about my mother....she got that magazine throughout my childhood and  said she'd been getting it since she was a student.  I didn't really know she had such feminist leanings.....

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22457 on: May 15, 2021, 07:28:42 PM »
 A lot of people think Classics study is irrelevant. Such a shame. What they are  missing!

Vesta

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22458 on: May 16, 2021, 02:01:09 PM »
I appreciate what Dame Mary Beard is quoted as saying in the BBC article:

"classics students are "trained to think hard, to express themselves, to write well - qualities that a hell of a lot of employers are looking for".  The subject also offered a way of "thinking about the world differently", with different perspectives on philosophy, culture, gender and race."

The university Dana mentioned is indeed Howard University, a historically Black University in D.C. and the only one to have a Classics Dept.  Among their distinguished alumni are V.P. Kamala Harris and Alice Walker who wrote The Color Purple and notably was a Classics minor at Howard.

For the story at Howard University eliminating the Classics Dept you might read this article:

Howard University's Decision To Cut Classics Department ...https://www.npr.org › 2021/05/10 › howard-universitys-d...

Through studying, reading, writing, and loving Latin, we step into the river of history, and there we find a deeper understanding of where we began and where we want to go.

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22459 on: May 17, 2021, 09:27:09 AM »
That's a really good article, Vesta. Thank you for letting us know about it.   I would not have wanted to miss it. This link may help others see it:  https://www.npr.org/2021/05/10/995389117/howard-universitys-decision-to-cut-classics-department-prompts-an-outcry

It seems it was a big department, 8 people, and it seems that they hope to  continue to assimilate classics study and move the  faculty to  the other different departments, so it's not completely gone,  but I do understand the thousands of signatures protesting this move and I love the reasons given in the article for keeping it.

It appears they never did offer a major.

I did not know any of this so am glad to hear about it.

I hope they can find a different solution.


ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22460 on: May 17, 2021, 09:38:02 AM »
Colming back to Chapter 5 and Virginia Woolf (are you still out there, Readers?)

I think the thing that most surprised me was the way she approached reading a book by a living author as she puts it, the  author Mary Carmichael.




I recall when we  used to have authors who would marvel at the care and attention we gave their work and were glad to come in and discuss it with serious readers.

But anyway, here SHE is , and she concludes Chapter 5 with the note that: "give her a room of her own and five hundred a year, let her speak her mind and leave out half that she now puts in, and she will write a better book one of these days. She will be a poet,  I said, putting Life's Adventure by Mary Carmichael, at the end of the shelf, in another hundred years' time."


Oh how difficult it is for me NOT to observe what I'm thinking. So I won't. :)

What do YOU think?


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22461 on: May 17, 2021, 01:41:55 PM »
Sorry still cannot be empathetic with her concept - many a homeless would like a room of their own with a small allowance - I guess the difference is they are not promising in return a masterpiece.

Given her description in chapter one of the financial where with all and perks offered a male student they should all have been developing or creating masterpiece in their field - since few did it seems her thesis does not hold - what it takes to create a masterpiece seems to be related more to imagination not only for the story but how to satisfy an ambition to use and develop your project or creation given your economic circumstances.

A later twentieth century female author wrote her novels in cafes while taking care of her baby - granted she was on welfare and so she had the small allowance VW thought was necessary but then, another aspect of writing a masterpiece is having an audience with money to buy the book and read it - If her audience were other women wanting their equal rights I'm at a loss at how this book bolstered them on or pushed forward their demands since VW's premise is not to earn or have greater opportunity but rather women should have automatic access to a new basic career boost as an IOU where she promises more successful output to justify the investment. Maybe, given the handouts today to those who fit the government's profile of need, her thesis hit home for many and then we wonder why folks struggle with self empowerment issues.

Ah so ... being grateful for a skill, a talent is not enough for some and that confounds me - I tried but could not get past her premise - kept looking for outstanding literary devices that I did see in chapter one but no new ones cropping up - nope on this book - now I did admire her ability to put on paper the story of Mrs. Dalloway and I've noticed many suggesting her novel, Orlando is a winner that I have not read and will, if for no other reason then to in my mind retrieve her from a thinker who sows the seeds of helpless expectation.

Did read over the weekend The Brilliant life of Eudora Honeysett - one step up from a chit chat book - my words for light poolside read - anyhow the central theme that the story circles around is the aged who would like to choose when and how to die - interesting and no, she stays to course but in the most ideal setup and surroundings - however, I did download a book recommended by the author that I have not cracked yet, With The End In Mind: Dying, Death and Wisdom In An Age of Denial. 

Also found and started a book I had not ever heard about whose writing and philosophy was incorporated in the thinking of our founding fathers when they wrote the Constitution. The Law by Frédéric Bastiat - only 70 pages on KIndle but wow - looks like the French influence establishing this nation was greater than is currently given credit.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Frybabe

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22462 on: May 20, 2021, 07:23:34 AM »
I guess I should stick my foot back in the door here, since I haven't posted for a while.

I finished A Desolation Called Peace. It is the second of Arkady Martine's Teixcalaan Series. Her first, A Memory Called Empire, won the 2020 Hugo Award for Best Novel. Not too shabby for a debut novelist. It is SciFi that follows an ambassador from an independent Station and local mining interests and it's attempts to stay pure rather than get tainted/influenced or absorbed by a nearby and expanding Empire. The Empire is a society that uses poetry as a means of public discourse and influence. This is stuff of political meddling, spying, sabotage, advanced communications and memory enhancements, and war (but not a big part, except for the sense of horror and something to stop ASAP).

One recent book I could not get through is The Space Between Worlds by Micaiah Johnson which deals with travels and research in the different worlds of the multi-verse. The premise sounded interesting, however, it just didn't hold my attention. Another I started is The Grand Babylon Hotel by Arnold Bennett. It was originally published as a serial back in 1902 in The Golden Penny magazine. At first it seemed fun, but after a while I decided it was getting a bit too silly.

Lastly, I gave up on C. J. Cherryh's Port Eternity. Here the owner of a private spaceship is a big fan of Arthurian legend and plays out her fantasies within in the ship. Her crew are made people, not robots exactly (androids maybe?) and not clones as best as I can tell, who are programmed for different attributes and named after some of the Arthurian characters. Here is a confusion between reality and fantasy and a struggle to keep them separate. And, of course, there is a unexpected accident that leaves the ship stranded in sub-space. Interspersed throughout the book are lines from Tennyson's, "Idylls of the King". It should have been interesting, but wasn't, at least not for me. Maybe a reading of Tennyson's poem would have been in order first.

So, now I am reading a mystery called Don't Leave Me by James Scott Bell. So far, so good. We have a PTSD war vet who is a fifth grade teacher with a brother who is autistic. His wife had died in an accident shortly after he came back, so he is dealing with that too. Now he and his brother are being threatened and his house set on fire by person or persons unknown who seem to indicate his wife had been involved or saw something she should not have. I haven't gotten too far into the book yet.

Vesta

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22463 on: May 20, 2021, 03:06:19 PM »
I’ve started reading novels in epistolary form.  I thoroughly enjoyed reading The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society several years ago so I was intrigued by first time author Anne Youngson writing Meet Me at the Museum in epistolary form that also appeals to my interest in archaeology.  You can read about the story line at GoodReads.com but what really appealed to me was a story about a mature woman (60’s) evaluating her marriage and life choices.  My local library has a book club that usually discusses books that appeal to women in their 30’s to 40’s so their life experiences and values are different from mine.  My next epistolary read was 84 Charring Cross Road that was interesting for the author’s quirky ways as a book lover and her revelation of conditions in Britain after WWII.  It was also sad that the author never found the time or money to visit her booksellers friends so that made me think about visiting distant relatives and friends before it’s too late.

Through studying, reading, writing, and loving Latin, we step into the river of history, and there we find a deeper understanding of where we began and where we want to go.

Frybabe

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22464 on: May 21, 2021, 07:22:50 AM »
Another book bites the dust without finishing. Don't Leave Me was okay for the first few chapters, but I lost interest when it turned into drug related murders, a drug lord son who likes to whip himself with sticks, and a cop that was more interested in enhancing his career than getting to the facts.

So I am back to reading the next of one of C. J. Cherryh's early books. This one is Voyager in Night. Okay, so far. Not sure where this is going but it appears to deal with an alien space probe passing through.

Dana

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22465 on: May 22, 2021, 12:17:17 PM »
I finally read the last chapter of A Room of One's Own.  I have a new phone so had to download it again.  For some reason I decided to download the complete works of VW.  Must be nuts.  However, will keep me going when all else fails and stuck somewhere.  I cannot remember anything really about the last chapter.  I think she was saying it takes both male and female sensibilities to write a book. Duh.
I started The Voyage Out.  It is quite incomprehensible to me. But I cheated and looked up Cliff's notes or some such, so now at least I know what it's supposed to be about. 


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22466 on: May 22, 2021, 12:49:19 PM »
Found this on Feedbooks - a site that allows you to download with no cost books that are past their protected copyright time. (copyright protection lasts for the life of the author plus an additional 70 years.) Anyhow this review about A Room of One's Own that makes sense to me - If I had read the book with this concept in mind I would have been less perplexed thinking her thesis was childish and frankly nuts...

The sentence separations are mine - attempting to make it easier to read...

"A Room of One's Own is an extended essay by Virginia Woolf. First published on 24 October 1929, the essay was based on a series of lectures she delivered at Newnham College and Girton College, two women's colleges at Cambridge University in October 1928.

While this extended essay in fact employs a fictional narrator and narrative to explore women both as writers of and characters in fiction, the manuscript for the delivery of the series of lectures, titled "Women and Fiction", and hence the essay, are considered non-fiction.

The essay is generally seen as a feminist text, and is noted in its argument for both a literal and figural space for women writers within a literary tradition dominated by patriarchy."
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

Dana

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22467 on: May 22, 2021, 06:04:04 PM »
Have been reading The Clan of the Cave Bear.  I guess could be classified as science fiction.  I am really enjoying it.  Good story, really clever author, makes you think.  I am told her other books (follow ups) are not as good.  This is a book I shall be sorry to finish.  This is a book that I would think you Frybabe would like??

Frybabe

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22468 on: May 23, 2021, 07:22:06 AM »
Your are probably right Dana, though I have never had the inclination to read it for some reason. I did read an Andre Norton book, The Time Traders, if I remember correctly, which dealt with a time traveling squad that kept various and sundry people from going back or forth in time to do harm, change history or steal artifacts. The Time Traders went back to prehistoric time. The Michael J. Sullivan series I am listening to started out just at the end of the Stone Age and the beginning of the Iron Age, not exactly prehistory, but close. Did you ever see the movie Quest for Fire? I really liked that. And, of course, 2001: A Space Odyessy began in prehistory.

I was just looking at a list of "prehistoric fiction" and found two others that look interesting. Both are relatively recent. Kim Stanley Robinson's Shaman, which I almost picked up at one time or another, and Evolution by Stephen Baxter. I tried reading one of Robinson's science fiction books but didn't care for it. I haven't, to my recollection, read any of Stephen Baxter's works. Anyone care to comment on these two authors?

I am in between reads right now, picking around to see what holds my interest while waiting for my next library book becomes available. I did just finish a short story by Martha Wells which is set within her "Murderbot" series.

Dana

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22469 on: May 23, 2021, 05:33:38 PM »
I have not  seen Quest for Fire and I never could get into 2001.
  I guess I just like an author who has something special to say and she sure has an inventive and clever mind.
  That is why, for example, I really enjoyed Colleen McCullough's Song of Troy which is a different take on Homer.

PatH

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22470 on: May 23, 2021, 05:46:34 PM »
I’ve been absent for some time, but not reading, alas.  Two weeks ago, late evening on Mother’s Day, the plasterboard llayer of my ceiling collapsed, filling the kitchen with rubble. I was in the living room at the time, talking to Cathy.  She and I quickly made a list of things to grab and throw into a suitcase, while her husband found me a hotel room.   I looked quickly for the Wolfe, but didn’t find it in time.
We(mostly my daughters) are now working on getting an evaluation of what happened and the condition of the other ceilings, and what to do next. It’s been an anxious and busy time, and my mind hasn’t been much on reading. I wish I had the book though; there are comments I’d like to make.

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22471 on: May 23, 2021, 05:50:48 PM »
 OMG, Pat!!

We were posting together and i did not see your post! What on earth?

Water damage?

SO glad you weren't hurt!!!


BarbStAubrey

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22472 on: May 23, 2021, 05:55:19 PM »
Oh Pat - what a mess - I had my front living-room ceiling fall back about 20 years ago - my son came up and put a large tarp over the area till we could get someone in to make repairs - two other ceilings were about to fall and so all three were replaced with new sheetrock and of course wiring was effected - it is a mess and hope you get your's taken care of soon - and hope the rubble landing on your furniture was not too damaging so that you can repair rather than replace furniture.
“A man should hear a little music, read a little poetry, and see a fine picture every day of his life, in order that worldly cares may not obliterate the sense of the beautiful which God has implanted in the human soul.” ~ Goethe

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22473 on: May 23, 2021, 05:58:16 PM »
Now I'll go back to what I was posting before Pat's scary announcement!!

 I am glad to see  Dana has finished A Room of One's Own's chapter 8.

Unless she has something different to add to the first four chapters I may have to do a runner, does she? Are the last 4 different?

I was thinking yesterday everybody needs space of their own,  and everybody would enjoy the equivalent in today's money of a stipend just to follow their own dream, wouldn't they?

I'm not a writer so I can't speak to the difference that would make nor what Mary Carmichael of Chapter 4 would be IF she had that, (and how do we know her circumstances in the first place) but somehow I think that if all one needed was a room to themselves and a stipend then the world would be full of great literature when it seems almost the reverse is true, isn't it, as many retirees  flock to the self publishing field with all this time (but not necessarily money) on hand.

I have, however, enjoyed this short foray into  Virginia Woolf and have enjoyed the conversation and the points made as well.

And I appreciate Dana's suggesting it.

I think I'm going to fold the tent on the rest, however.


ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22474 on: May 23, 2021, 05:59:06 PM »
Dana,  you had mentioned you were enjoying the first episodes of Game of Thrones, have you read the book(s) and if so, are they any good?

Frybabe, I like Si Fi but have not  read any in a long time.  You are very well read in that genre!

I'm starting the Bachelor Brothers today which Rosemary recommended some time ago and am hoping for  a good read.

Frybabe

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22475 on: May 24, 2021, 07:00:04 AM »
Yeah, Ginny, I went nuts some years back and started reading SciFi after not have any interest in it at all. Current favorite SciFi writers whom I have been keeping an eye on include Hugh Howey who has taken to sailing around the world and blogging about it. He hasn't published a book since 2015. Jack McDevitt, at 86 now, seems to have been trying to wrap up several series. He last published in 2019. Jack Campbell (John G. Hemry) went off to write fantasy for a while but is now back with a new Lost Fleet subseries, the first of which will drop very soon.  Marko Kloos and Martha Wells are continuing to publish regularly.

Meanwhile, I am trying to spend more time with other genres as well. Unfortunately, the last few crime mysteries I picked up were busts. My nonfiction reading is off and on.

I always end up back in SciFi. Right now I am reading Ursula Le Guin's Five Ways to Forgiveness, five novels/novellas that are part of her Hainish Cycle.

Well, so much for doing yardwork this morning. It is raining.

Dana

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22476 on: May 24, 2021, 11:28:54 AM »
I have not read the books of Game of Thrones and I don't think I will.  The series is bad enough.  (Very well done but the content is disgusting).  I thought the books might be better and maybe the tv series was just amping up the cruelty and ridiculous sex, but apparently not.....I read some reviews of the books.....apparently they just go on and on with every kind of awful thing happening for no discernable reason.  I'm really quite hooked on all the actors though and the dragons are great, so I just close my eyes to the degrading nastiness and wonder about the mind of the person who made this stuff up..and wonder about my mind for watching it.....!

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22477 on: May 25, 2021, 08:25:21 PM »
:) Wow. hahaha, That's some review, I will follow your lead and not read the book and probably  leave the TV show off as well. I did wonder about it.

ginny

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22478 on: May 25, 2021, 08:25:50 PM »
 Frybabe have you read The Stand, and if so do  you recommend it?

Frybabe

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Re: The Library
« Reply #22479 on: May 26, 2021, 07:21:40 AM »
No, I haven't read The Stand. In fact, I haven't read any of Steven Kings works, except Misery. I am definitely not into horror, so that one kept me from reading more of his books. My sister, however, is a King fan. She recommended to me his The Dark Tower, which I see is actually a series that he started back in 1982. I did watch the movie version of Dolores Clayborne. I didn't know that he wrote The Green Mile. Either way, I did not read the book or see the movie. Also didn't know or forgot that the movie Children of the Corn was based on his short story by the same name. I remember the trailer for that movie, though.

From all of that, I guess you can tell I don't like horror type SciFi either. I never even finished Frankenstein, which we discussed some time back. You could say I have a real aversion to horror stories. Don't know why, since my early movie watching included Vincent Price's horror movies, and I read many (or all?) of Edgar Alan Poe's works.

Speaking of horrors, I got my second COVID-19 shot yesterday. Soon, I think I will be able to get out and get things done. I could use new shoes and jeans, not to mention all the house repairs, etc. that I am considering, and my annual exam trip to the Dr.