The Library

[mabel1015j]

The Library Our library cafe is open 24/7, the welcome mat is  always out. Do come in from daily chores and spend some time with us. We look forward to hearing from you, about you and the books you are enjoying (or not). Let the book talk begin here!

Suggestion Box for Future Discussions

Salam - don't judge all of S&F by these few comments. I' m sorry that Carolyn was treated so badly and "stalked" to other sites. There are some wonderful and helpful discussions on the site. Just stay away from the religion and politics' sites - as " ms manners" as always advised us.  .  That makes me sad because I've always liked a good and fruitful discussion of both of those topics............Jean

[maryz]

I frequent several discussions of Seniors & Friends and am aware of the problem Carolyn had.  And there are lots of us there who hate what happened.  But most of the folks I've encountered there are warm and welcoming - at least in the pages I frequent (none of the religious or political ones).  There are posts written from time to time that I just skip over, consider the source, and don't bother to read.  Guess that's the way it is in almost any public forum.

[Phyll]

Maryz, as you know I am a Team Leader in Seniors & Friends and what happened to Carolyn saddened all of us.  We enjoyed her comments and viewpoint and hated that she felt she had to leave.  Yes, it happens that personal abuse can occur in any public forum and especially when such volatile subjects as politics and religion are being discussed.  Like you, I don't go there.  I don't discuss religion or politics with anyone outside of my family and with only a few inside of my family that I know I can trust to keep a level, impersonal attitude.

[kiwilady]

September 11th

How well I remember a dawn where I woke to find Ruth ( my old childhood friend living in my studio at that time) banging on my door, Bleary eyed I staggered to the door and opened it. "Turn on the TV Turn on the TV" she yelled. "CNN" she suggested. We sat in horror and disbelief as events unfolded. Just as I know exactly where I was on the day JFK was assassinated I know exactly where I was and who I was with on 9/11.

Every day I yearn for World Peace and I personally cannot understand the mentality behind war.

Carolyn

[kiwilady]

Phyll- I have one son whose politics are entirely opposite to mine. We argue from time to time and it gets quite heated but we never let it affect our personal relationship. I don't think you need to get personal.

I am fiscally liberal and morally conservative. My son is probably fiscally conservative and morally liberal. Both of us go for the fiscal philosophy of the parties we support. These policies are what affect the everyday life of our fellow citizens. As for my party's liberal morals I don't have to partake of the legislation that offends my moral sensibilities. So here we can be quite complicated political animals! Its not all black and white thats for sure!

This is all I will ever say about my politics and I hope I have not broken the rules.

Today is library day for me. I go on Sunday morning as I can get parking. Other days there is no parking near the library and I return lots of books and they are heavy!

[maryz]

One more family funny - John is going on a boat trip on the Erie Canal with two of our daughters and one son-in-law.  They were going, and John sort-of invited himself to go along.  He was "invited" with two stipulations:  Randy (our son-in-law) was the captain - the trip was his idea.  And Randy and John were both forbidden from discussion politics.  We've gotten a lot of laughs out of that.  And, they did both agree.   

[kiwilady]

LOL! Thats so funny!

Carolyn

[Phyll]

That is funny, Maryz.  And wise to reach that agreement or one of them might have found himself swimming ashore!  lol

Carolyn, what did you pick up to read at the library? 

I've got 'way too many books going right now.  I'm reading "Broken" by Karin Slaughter (a new to me author), "True Blue" by David Baldacci, and "Storm Prey" by John Sandford, all on my laptop.  And in hardcover, "The Golden Warrior" by Hope Munz.   "Low Country", by Anne Rivers Siddons and "The Murders of Richard III" by Elizabeth Peters, are waiting on the bedside table.  Whew!  It makes me tired to think about it but it's a good tired. 

[MaryPage]

I am so excited that you have Hope Muntz's book!  Lucky you to have found it.  Please let me know if it haunts you after reading the way it has haunted me all of these long years.  My guess would be that I read it along about 1962!

[kiwilady]

I have a real pick and mix of mystery, general fiction, and crime novels. Will report on any good  ones as I get through them.

I saw my daughter busy at work in the library and she said they were four short due to illness today. All the librarians know me so the one who issued my audio books had a chat.

Carolyn

[maryz]

I just finished listening to a tape of 84 Charing Cross Rd.  I had gotten it for our daughter, and she said I had to listen.  I DO love that book - but I'm really not a fan of audiobooks.  Oh, well.....  Now I need to find my copy (or get another one) and read it again.

[kiwilady]

84 Charing Cross Road is a wonderful book. Its a book I go back to from time to time and enjoy it every single read. There are two other books by this author the names of which escape me but they are really wonderful too all about NY and featuring her close friends and neighbours and the characters that inhabit her building and her neighbourhood. They may be out of print but must be available in those precious old book stores with their mish mash of old books many out of print.

Carolyn

[maryz]

I just ordered a used hardcover copy from Amazon for $1.00 (plus S&H, of course).

[winsummm]

news for those who do enjoy discussing the religion topic.  Five of us got togerther with Pat and designed a civil site for that perpose which is in S and F but you have to sign in for it. It is generally closed until you write to pat and get permissioin.  the rules have to do with civility and safety. it is geared for atheiists and agnostics and humanists for those with that interest, but strangely we have attracted a few believers as well because it is SAFE in there. It is a small group but continues to be lively and CIVIL.

the POlitics discussion is famous for strife. I can't stay in there an more either although I tried for a long time.
the  hypergelie  spelling is such that I shouldn't attempt such words, is allowed there. I would skipp those aggressive individuals not all of them men, but for now skip the entire discussion.
However the other sites that I goe to now and then are fine. Dont let afew idiots keep you away from all the good stuff there including the computer art   painting and the cartoons, my interests.

claire

[roshanarose]

Mippy - We are one day ahead here and September 11 was in my thoughts all day.  To see those pix again and realise how terribly helpless and vulnerable those people who died were.  Who would ever expect an attack from such a quarter?  My dear US brothers and sisters, nothing will ever erase that memory from the eyes of the world.  Healing happens sometimes, sometimes never.  I am reminded of that beautiful song "You'll Never Walk Alone".  And you never will.

[Steph]

 I must look up the new Anne Perry. I had just gotten tired of the same old Charlotte plot over and over.

[Frybabe]

Thank you for your thoughts, Roshanarose.

[Phyll]

Maryz, I'm supposed to receive the movie, "84 Charing Cross Road", from Netflix soon now.  I have one above it in the queue, I think.  I'm having a hard time waiting.  The combination of that wonderful book and Anthony Hopkins, Anne Bancroft, and Judi Dench in the cast is sounding unbeatable.

MaryPage, it will be awhile before I get into "The Golden Warrior" but I'll let you know what I think.

[MaryPage]

Claire, that sounds like a very good group you have going there, and one I would qualify for, as I am an agnostic.  I will ponder on asking Pat about it, but really, at the moment at least, I feel no need to share my convictions with others.  My husband, who has been gone over 4 years now, and I discussed it all every which way from Sunday, as they say, and I honestly cannot think of any more to say on the subject  When I was younger, I did feel a sense of urgency to explore every nuance of religion and/or politics with any others who wished to engage in such discussions.  Curiosity to know every existing viewpoint raged within me;  I just wanted so much to know all there was to know.  Now I feel sort of like a helicopter that has landed on its marked pad and everyone has left except me and the light is fading and soon will be gone and I will just disappear.  No rage to know, no wonderment, no excitement.  However, never at any time in my entire life have I felt an urge to convert anyone else to my point of view.  I love to debate a point, saying yes, but if you do that you will get this and if you do this you will get that, and THEN what do you do!  But arguments in debate are, for me, a means of exploration and never, ever any type of oneupmanship or "winning" or convincing anyone other than myself.

[mabel1015j]

Marypage - i concur completely w/ you about discussions. Ioften have had to point that out, especially when talking w/ some men, that I was not in competition w/ their point of view and when I voiced a question, or an opposing idea, iwasn't arguing but furthering the discussion.......Jean

[mrssherlock]

Some men seem to feel that disagreeing is arguing.  To me a discussion is like comparison shopping; I need to hear many different views before I can rest easy with my own or change my mind. 

[maryz]

winsumm, I probably wouldn't comment on the site, but I'd like to look in from time to time.  Can you post the link to the discussion - or do we need to write Pat for that, too?

[Phyll]

However, never at any time in my entire life have I felt an urge to convert anyone else to my point of view.

That one sentence in your post, MaryPage, is where my problem lies.  In my experience I have not been able to discuss either religion or politics with someone who is NOT trying to convert me to their belief.  It is their way or no way.  That has caused hurt feelings and worse.  Therefore, I do not discuss either of these subjects with anyone.  I wish I could.  I would love to have a rational discourse about such important and thought provoking issues. 

[JoanK]

Phyll, I agree with you a hundred percent. Can you read the discussion without permission? And which catagory is it under (I find the organization confusing).

[MaryPage]

MrsSherlock, what an apt comparison!  You have truly hit the nail on the head for me, and with much greater simplicity than I was able to come up with!

Phyll, I am sorry you have never been able to have those conversations.  I have never been able to have them on line, so have given up, but my husband and I went everywhere, no holds barred, in our discussions and I once belonged to a debating group sponsored by a History professor from George Mason University, and we kept to the rules and were also able to pull off 20-person round table debates on every subject, including abortion, without a single nasty or personal comment whatsoever!  What a Joy that was for my Elephant's Child type mind!

[Phyll]

I'm truly envious, MaryPage. 

I'm going to hedge a little on my "never" having those conversations.  In college we used to sit around and talk and argue 'til wee hours and still remain friends.  But back then,  I had not lived through a lifetime of experiences to shape me so my platform was pretty shallow.

[kiwilady]

My oldest friend Ruth and I disagree about moral issues or as we say here conscience voting. I am more conservative but we have never fallen out despite many debates on subjects that are quite hot to many people. However we both agree on fiscal policies in politics. If you are a Member of Parliament in NZ, on conscience issues such as abortion you can cross the floor and vote with the opposition and its not held against you. I think its good to keep these sort of issues separate from the party line.

When I think back to some of the book discussions we had on the old SN we all often had differing opinions on issues that cropped up but I can't remember a single time there were personal attacks. Debate the issue not attack the poster is my motto! Some people do not seem to be able to separate the issue from the person who is giving their opinion on the issue. There are none of those here!

I just hope my stalker does not decide to take up reading and follow me here! 

[kiwilady]

About "Three cups of Tea". There are 27 holds before I get it. There are quite a few copies in our catalogue so I suspect its a favorite with book clubs currently. You always know what the book clubs are reading because of the number of holds on a particular book. Lets hope a book club has reserved 27 copies via their members and in a couple of months they will all be back on the shelf!

I told one of the librarians who was looking for an entertaining audio book for themselves about "Queen Camilla" told her I had just put it "through the hole in the wall" and to grab it for herself.  I did laugh a lot when I was listening to it. It takes very clever humour (more satirical) to get me really laughing. I am not one for slapstick humour. I like clever humour. Its quite funny that my siblings and my mum love slapstick and my dad (English born) and I love the good old English satire.  I am the one who looks like my dad and all the others are more like my grandfathers family. I wonder if our genes even dictate our appreciation of humour.

Carolyn

[winsummm]

first:  THREE CUPS OF TEA  is worth owning for all the information it provides as well as a good read.  So maybe Amazon has it used or really cheap or or or......buy it.

 NEXT:  the religious group is a group of people with like minds and there is discussion of many things other than religion which even in this group  has variation and is interesting. Most of us have already come to a recognition of who we are in that realm but it is hard to find ILK with whom to share the differences  and in this case the more open mindedness and new ideas  that come from others.  also there are a couple of believers who respect our more liberal ideas and find that they can grow from having done so.

third: everyone must past muster and behave with civility  so that is not a problem. . . . .   such a relief . . . sigh.

it is under STREET CORNER discussions.  the one   about politics   is very hard for me to take so I don't anymore. but it is nothing like this one. . .claire

[winsummm]

old story about men and women and discussion:  many long years ago when women needed to burn bras to make a point, I, a long time basic feminist who did not feel the necessity to do that did however feel that I should SPEAK UP  when the occassion demanded it.  as a dinner party with elementary school principals I did so.

 the men all attacked me including my husband and the women huddled in a corner like frightened deer. I  considered my husbands betrayal to  be another nail in the coffin of our  rocky relationship. Men seem to be that way off and on stage and too many women avoid the issue. we've come a long way for sure but have just as long a way to go.  that's an interesting issue and may be for all time. we are so different from each other, men and women. that is what is hard to accept.

[kiwilady]

I was a scandal in my neighbourhood in the early seventies. I went to work full time despite having young children. I was considered to be an unworthy mother! My husband objected when I got my first job but when he realised how much we really did need the money he accepted the fact I would be a working woman. He was from that time on very supportive of me. It was a time of real change the seventies in NZ.

[JoanK]

And in the US as well.

[winsummm]

Mary Page there is still so much to explore. my kindle opens up worlds for me. currently Ihave the new book by stephen hawkens and friend which is about Mtheory or sinple MODAL DEPENDENT REALITY. much simpler than it sounds but amazingly it helps me understand so much I thought I had resolved. I'll leave it to him to explain. the name of the book is THE GRAND DESIGN and it is not what you might think.  in fact just the opposite. each of our assumptions rests on the reality of its environment, on what we think is true aimply because it may have been in the past. in all the various models
THAT we have accepted and then given up in the past it has been because we found a new one that better explained our world to us. i.e. the world does no longer represent the center of the universe and it has many other possible universes as well. only those that fulfill all our  Explanations can be used. Mtheory admits that there could be many different such explanations that overlap etc. so it isn't really "elegant" either. but we want more and more to find explanations for things. Mary dear  come play with us who are still curious and want to know EVERYTHING.

[kiwilady]

My thing is I want to know what makes an individual who they are. I read lots about people and their differences both culturally and in their own personal make up. It fascinates me so much.

I am not curious about the Universe because I believe we are part of a plan bigger than all of us. I don't worry about anything that does not affect us here on this planet.

I am passionate about caring for this earth the place that is our home.

Carolyn

[JoanK]

Clare: couldn't find a "streetcorner talk". There was a "Soapbox talk" but it contained only politics, nor religion. Maybe you have to be accepted before you can see it.

[MaryPage]

From your intense interest in individuals, I conclude Dear Carolyn, that Three Cups of Tea is precisely YOUR cup of tea!

You will be astonished to read Greg Mortenson speak of the man whom he feels is the wisest he has ever met!

You will be entranced at the young woman who is the very first woman in her valley in Pakistan to EVER get an education, and you will be blown away by her photograph as a grown woman that appears in the book.  Hint:  she is the granddaughter of that "wisest man," and he never learned to read and write!

I have Hawkin's previous books and have read with great interest about this latest one.  Saw his coauthor on the telly the other evening, as well.  Apparently they have really shaken up the world of religion, as did Galileo in his day.  I am quite simply too many books behind (I own over 1,000 books I have not yet read!  OWN them!  Have 9 bookcases full, each with double rows, except in the case of paperbacks, which come in triple rows!) to get this latest one.  Sometimes you reach a point where you just have to let things go.

[mabel1015j]

WOW! What great talks we have on tis site.


MaryPage, I also am envious of your " debate" experience. It sounds like the kind of discussion that most of us don't get to have once we leave college. I would also be interested in a civil religious discussion.

I have just refused to buy fiction books for sev'l decades, except for the library book sales and then I take them all back for the next sale. I might have a dozen fiction books on my shelves. The reason is that I'm just cheap and " green" .. the library has been just 3 blocks up the street for the last 35 yrs so I consider their shelves MY bookshelves. And one tree can make many books for hundreds of people to read from the library.......not so good for the authors, but I have my priorities....

Carolyn, when I taught I talked a lot about the personalities of the historical figures and how they developed their needs and values and how the y effected the descions that they made and therefore history. I had many students, mostly women, tell me that they enjoyed history for the first time. I knew that what caught my attention about history was those stories about the " actors."

Jean

[maryz]

JoanK, the discussion is in Soapbox Corner, but it won't show up on your page unless PatH sets it for you.  Her e-mail is patzscott@gmail.com .  Ask her, and she'll make it happen for you. 

[Steph]

My husband and I often talked of politics and why so many people get so angry and try to push you into believing whatever they believe. We had sort of a multitude of opinions and really were not a particular party or even all liberal or all conservative. We leaned toward liberal mostly, but living in a border state had some more conservative ideas about immigration. Most border state people do.
I try hard not to discuss politics or religion, but religion is a toughy.. I truly dislike public loud prayer, but in the last year, more people have grabbed me and decided to pray with or for me.. As a quaker, my inner light and I hold on and I try to be charitable about others, but sometimes it is hard. This last week has caused me so much pain and I have looked within and see only chaos.. I must center myself and walk away.

[MaryPage]

We were always very interested in the Science that says all anger is produced by fear.

Our basic, primal instincts include preserving our own lives and those of our family clan.

Being alert to danger, we go into an aggressive mode, especially the male of our species, at the slightest whiff or sense of an intrusion into the daily life routine that has, so far, kept us alive.

This elemental response in our brains is what suspects change of any kind, as it perceives it as a threat to our well being.

Only extensive education, especially in Logic, Ethics and Science, creates deeply thoughtful human beings who attempt to connect the dots and seek the intelligent solutions to problems of all sorts.

The rest fall back on the familiar, even when that route may well be the fatal one.