Author Topic: The Library (Read 2088787 times)

JoanK · « **Reply #5240 on:** June 03, 2011, 08:35:56 PM »

The Library

Our library cafe is open 24/7, the welcome mat is always out.
Do come in from daily chores and spend some time with us.

We look forward to hearing from you, about you and the books you are enjoying (or not).

Let the book talk begin here!

*Suggestion Box for Future Discussions
*SeniorLearn's Archives

Note: I'm not in the "Old Filth" discussion and haven't read the book, so nothing I said above was aimed at that discussion at all. Most books we discuss are somewhere between the two extremes I mentioned: worth discussing in detail, but not perhaps every day for a month. The monthlong discussion is still good, I feel. It enables you to take the book in chunks, discuss early issues while still fresh in your mind, and stretch out the reading, have a shared sense of anticipation ("I can't wait to find out what happens. What do you think...?) which is a lot of fun. It helps people who have to squeeze their readiing into small chunks.

And don't forget, YOU DON'T HAVE TO READ EVERY POST. If someone is going on and on about something you're not interested in, just skip to the next post. (Don't tell -- I do it all the time!).

CallieOK · « **Reply #5241 on:** June 03, 2011, 09:07:50 PM »

I think whatever kind of discussion works best for the most participants should be done.
All the discussions I have followed have been lively ones with thoughtful posts by quite a few participants.

Tomorrow, I will have a rare treat - a day out-of-town with my oldest son - just the two of us! We are going to my hometown, where an F3 tornado did some damage to property we have there.
This one made the national news briefly - then Tuscaloosa and Joplin happened.

I'll see you in a day or two.

(((Hugs)))
Callie

JoanK · « **Reply #5242 on:** June 03, 2011, 09:19:56 PM »

{{{hugs}}} back.

PatH · « **Reply #5243 on:** June 03, 2011, 09:23:49 PM »

Callie, it shows your upbeat attitude that you can describe going to look at your tornado damage as a rare treat. (But I know what you mean.)

CallieOK · « **Reply #5244 on:** June 03, 2011, 09:35:20 PM »

Pat,

The rare treat is getting a whole day with my son without his feeling he has to rush home. His wife and 3 children are on a Disney cruise with "the other grandmother" and are having a fine time...as is he with time at home by himself.

Fortunately, the property is pasture and woods and, as I understand it, the trees look as if someone used a Weed Whacker on them. There's no structure except an old shed that could probably have been toppled by being pushed with one finger. The property is leased so there's someone to manage cleanup, which will probably result in a LOT of firewood!!!! That may be what my son is interested in.

We will also go to the cemetery where my grandparents, parents and husband are buried. I haven't been there in a long time.

MaryPage · « **Reply #5245 on:** June 03, 2011, 11:19:28 PM »

Love discussing books, but my very favorite ones to discuss turn out to be the ones we none of us can discuss, for they lead us into incivility. Drat!

Love to read the ancient, great, and present philosophers and pull apart, seek out the merits of, and disparage their contentions. Other friendly souls love to do this, too; but always some spoiler enters in and casts stones and accusations against honest thoughts and opinions, making the thinkers feel reduced to stupid crud.

Politics, or rather, connecting the dots of political thinking and reading and debating the possible truths or lies in books by and/or about political beings or recounting politically motivated happenings and events, I stab with joy and spar in awe with those of different belief in hope of learning and gaining understanding of the many perspectives surrounding all. Again, the worm, snake, skunk sneak into the sweet argument space and spoil the air with poison of personal attack. Am astonished to find I, 13th generation American, Army Brat born and Patriot bred, should take my heresy and go back to the country I came from, for obviously I hate this one! Say what? How do I go back to England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France and Germany? And what about the strain of Mohawk my French ancestor married? Does that not give me more roots than my attackers? Not? The Joy of sharing ideas evaporates.

How folk arrive at their religious beliefs is likewise of vast fascination. The seemingly unsolvable puzzle is how to debate in friendship all who enter in with pure hearts and how to construct an all-knowing barrier to bar those who would turn a quest for illumination into a brutal personal attack on poor old curious me. They say curiosity killed the cat, but in my case it severely dampens my spirits to have the contents of verbal chamber pots hurled on my earnest intentions.

In short, the types of books I would really most love to discuss with others are impossible to discuss in such public forums as these. Fortunately, I am still possessed of friends willing to spend hours at this, but fresh insights would be much enjoyed. Sigh!

roshanarose · « **Reply #5246 on:** June 04, 2011, 12:19:38 AM »

MaryPage - You write so very well. You have lived a full life, 'tho I must admit I felt an arrow to my being when I read that you had lost three of your husbands to cancer.

I don't know if the book I am about to recommend to you and others here falls into the category you enjoy, but I enjoyed it so much I feel compelled to add it:

An excellent book I have just finished reading may be of interest to our classicists.

"The Bull of Minos" by Leonard of Cottrell. ISBN 960 226 2710

Non Fiction - About the discovery and work of Heinreich Schliemann at Mycenenae, and Sir Arthur Evans at Knossos. Written in a simple, imaginative and scholarly way.

I am a PhilHellene to my chin whiskers and greedily devour anything on the subject. Likewise linguistics and comparative linguistics in particular are of great interest to me, as are archaeology and anthropology. There are lots of things I like, just as everyone else does on this wonderful site.

I am not into light fiction at all. I like my books dramatic, sometimes gruesome, gothic horror, Thomas Hardy, so many. I must admit that just reading everyone's posts is great "learning" in itself.

Barb - Thanks for that book list. I have read "The Sheltering Sky" and watched the movie (with John Malkovich (sp) and Debra Winger) also and loved them both. The Tuareg of Africa are of interest to me as I once shared a very personal experience regarding them.

I, too, enjoy the Jefferson Bass books. More please, Bill (and Jefferson).

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #5247 on:** June 04, 2011, 04:26:43 AM »

I have just regained internet connection after two days of practically none (one of those situations where you think your connection has come back, write your post, then find it has gone again and you can't actually do anything with it

), so am just catching up.

I must say I too am not that into picking books apart - I am interested in the social/historical issues that arise from them, so the background to Old Filth - the legal world, Hong Kong, the practice of sending children away (so British!) - all fascinate me, but actually pulling sentences apart to try to discover what the writer "meant" takes me back far too well to my university days - I changed from English to Social & Political Studies for this very reason. My elder daughter also says that the thing she doesn't like about English at school is all the obsession with the text.

That being said, I quite enjoy lurking in the discussions! And many people clearly love them, so that's great.

I am not sure if there is a middle ground for looking at books. I think our comments on books we have read, in The Library, etc, can be short or long, and both have their merits.

MaryPage - I am sorry that you don't feel you can discuss what you would like to discuss - maybe we should have a discussion page for just this sort of stuff, with clear rules that everyone's views should be respected (I'm sure they would be)?

Rosemary

Steph · « **Reply #5248 on:** June 04, 2011, 05:58:54 AM »

I try to participate if I know I will have the time in our book discussions, but I am so glad to find that others share my dislike of taking the book apart.. I agree with the three of you. It is fiction for heavens sake..I also do not particularly take part in the lets investigate where the book takes place or why so and so did what.. But I like the companionship of a lot of us reading the same book.

CallieOK · « **Reply #5249 on:** June 04, 2011, 08:51:30 AM »

But I like the companionship of a lot of us reading the same book.

Oh, so do I, Stephanie.

May I "borrow" the suggestion for "The Bull of Minos"?

One of my most favorite trips was to Greece with a professor from OU who had taught in the American University in Athens. Because of his insightful planning and ability to - as he said - "speak 'marketplace' Greek", we experienced far more than a regular tour would ever have provided.

I hear the garage door going up. Off for the Day's Adventure.

Hope it's a Great Day wherever you are.

MaryPage · « **Reply #5250 on:** June 04, 2011, 08:56:06 AM »

RoshanaRose, dying to hear about your personal experience re the Taureg. The Taureg! Wow! I have no such experiences outside of the glossy pages of dear National Geographic! Aren't those the desert nomads who get blue dye in their skin from their clothing and cause me to knit my brow worrying about resulting medical problems for them?

The subject matter of The Bull of Minos is fascinating.

Rosemary, political and religious forums have been tried here over and over again; and indeed, they still exist. No use. There just ARE many muddy minds out there wired to explode if the safe perimeters of their own certainties are not adhered to by all, and these penetrate every word of enlightenment in their earnest crusade to stamp out all heresies. Me, I have no impulse to convert anyone to my personal calculations of the way of things. I just want to hear in DETAIL how they arrive at their creeds and share how I have arrived at my own sense that there is soooo much more I do not know and how little certainty, indeed if any, I own.

Confession time: I own every Jefferson Bass book because it would be totally disloyal of me not to. So far, I have not had the time to read a single one. I will! I will! Just let me finish the 6 books I have going now!

ginny · « **Reply #5251 on:** June 04, 2011, 09:52:49 AM »

Well we used to say we could "discuss a telephone book." I am no longer sure what that means. hahahaa If one can "discuss a telephone book" one is obviously relying on the input of the other readers assembled, (instead of, for instance, the plot) for the discussion, and it actually might be fun.

I think we can offer different types of book discussions for any reader and any style.

MaryPage, what is an example of a title you would enjoy discussing? I do know what you mean by some people's ad hominem remarks, but they are out of place. We've all got our opinions, the ones that drive ME nuts are the ones (and I guess we're all this way) who will say something totally nuts (sorry) and then defend that to the death, spending all their time trying to "prove" they are "right," when in fact it's only their opinion. And we all have opinions. So therefore we all need to respect the others. Even if we know they are not correct.

That time trying to find some website to prove their own conclusions might be better spent actually looking at the book itself and what it says. Or seems to say. Or says to US individually. That seems difficult for some, I guess it's too personal. That's where our experienced Discussion Leaders make it easy, am thinking of Pearson here and her excellent questions.

Maybe it says nothing to us personally. Nothing we can relate to. No theme of any kind we can talk about. So why read it at all?

Do you all agree there has to be SOMETHING in the book SOMEWHERE a person can relate to? Or why do we read?

___________________________

Speaking of that I have finally yesterday gotten my hands on The Man in the Rockefeller Suit which everybody is raving about. Anybody reading it?

Certainly on the face of it nothing I can remotely relate to.

Jane asked for a light summer read? I doubt this is, it's non fiction but every review of it I have read says "forget the beach book, put this in your bag."

I was shocked to find it under "true crime," but I got it anyway and will report back, the guy apparently became a real life Tom Ripley, and managed to "pass" in society. You might think there's nothing in that subject that would appeal but think about the internet for a minute and the "instant creation" of persona on it.

________________________________

I hate I'm going to miss the Highland Fling hahaha but I think it's a fabulous idea! And any time any of you get together, please take lots of photos and let us know about it. We're somewhat famous for our in person real people get togethers, I am looking forward to hearing about Mary and Steph and possibly Mary from NC in July! I am sure Highlands will be a lot cooler than where I am going!

___________________________________

Larry, thank you for the Free Friday tip! It turns out that is not available on an APP (as in i phone Nook App) but only to the bona fide Nook readers, my friend and I tried to get it IN B&N yesterday and were told by the Nook people that's the case. It did not come up for me at all. I am disappointed as it sounded like a great thing. What are they offering this week? I am jealous. hahahaa

ANNIE · « **Reply #5252 on:** June 04, 2011, 10:00:01 AM »

Ginny,
What's a Free Friday app? And its offered only to Nook users?

When MaryZ and Steph get a date agreed upon, I hope they will let Mary(in Morganton) know. Her email address is: indym24449@yahoo.com.

I wish I was going to be there! What great fun. And I like the meet being called "Highland Fling".

LarryHanna · « **Reply #5253 on:** June 04, 2011, 10:05:14 AM »

Interesting postings for the last couple of days and I have to say I agree with many of the comments. It has been a long time since I tried to participate in book discussions, back to the early days of SeniorNet and working on the Books discussions. I love to read but then move on. I have always marveled at the ability some people have to be able to recall such detail about individual books and authors.

I am not Ginny but think I may be the one who mentioned the Free Friday books at Barnes & Noble. They are indeed only for the e-book readers. The app is the program that is available to download on a computer or various smart phones for the various book sources like B&N, Kindle, Kobo, and others. I have a number of them on my iPod Touch and recently was able to put a Kindle app on my e-book reader, which before only seemed to work with the Nook. These are free with the idea you will be buying e-books to use on them from Amazon or B&N or other companies.

MaryPage · « **Reply #5254 on:** June 04, 2011, 10:07:18 AM »

Ginny, I don't even mind hearing the crazy beliefs; actually, that mere mortal minds can dream up such ideas is utterly fascinating to me and I collect their thoughts the way some collect butterflies. No, no! The thing I cannot bear and run like a scalded cat away from is that instead of defending their beliefs with REASONS for holding them, they scream names at me. At ME! All I ask is to know the who, what, where, when, how and why of it all. I do not slam the beliefs of others, and I never call them names or hurl accusations at them. But what in the world can anyone profit from being surrounded by assurances in loud decibels that I am going to roast in hellfires forever? Well, not a whole lot, sez I!

isak · « **Reply #5255 on:** June 04, 2011, 02:12:25 PM »

MaryPage - I think I know what you mean. I am really tired of not being heard for what I really believe, but
for what they think I believe, based on someone else's concept of what my so-called group believes, and advocates.
even though it is eons from the truth.
We have all been superficially divided by someone's wrongheaded vision of what
our several groups believe, and we individually have no chance to say, individually, what we believe, or even what we
would like to talk about. A lot of it can be traced to radio and tv evangelists who have no real concept of what all
groups believe and espouse, but who are frightened by the sincere beliefs and histories of other cultures, so that they
label them unholy, pagan, and other perjorative words. I have been hearing this ever since I was a student in the 50s,
and so I do know what I am talking about. Eventually one does learn to become inquisitive enough to inquire, read,
talk and experience other beliefs and ways of doing things, so that I want to hear exactly what the other cultures
are saying, rather than what other self-appointed filters and guardians think they are doing us a favor by denying and
vilifying.
isak

mabel1015j · « **Reply #5256 on:** June 04, 2011, 03:14:43 PM »

I am reading a free online bio of Isabelle D'Este. They mentioned a sculptor who may have rivaled Michealangelo had he not been in bad health. His name is Cristoforo Romano and he had done a bust of Beatrice D'Este, so i went looking for a picture. In searching i found this site. It looks like it could keep one busy for days. Play around w/ the links which are those weird symbols at the top of the page and future pages, you'll find a lot of history readings. You folks in the "Classics" discussion might really enjoy it.

http://www.third-millennium-library.com/readinghall/GalleryofHistory/DOOR.html

Enjoy......Jean

MaryPage · « **Reply #5257 on:** June 04, 2011, 04:57:03 PM »

There are some wonderful books out about both Beatrice and Isabella D'Este, both historical fiction and biographies. I have read and enjoyed several of these. Fascinating period, and when watching The Borgias on cable recently I was gratified that I knew so well the historical events and people referred to.

http://harlotsharpiesharridans.com/blog/?tag=isabella-deste

Babi · « **Reply #5258 on:** June 04, 2011, 05:01:55 PM »

JEAN, I read "Cutting for Stone" and thought it excellent. You have to adjust to
the fact that these people are acting and reacting in accordance with their customs,
not ours. The author really is a doctor, and a distinguished one, now practicing
here in the States just as his protagonist does.
Actually the protagonists are a pair of twins, and the relationship between them
is definitely both strong, and mixed.

CALLIE, I agree, but I am finding much more depth and scope for discussion, so far,
in Old Filth than I did in Major Pettigrew.
I also agree with MARYPAGE that the religious and political forums do attract those of a
hard mindset who are not at all open to differing opinions. Yet, happily, I have found
that when a group of us in a book discussion touch on either of those two topics,
we generally seem to be able to do so graciously.

PatH · « **Reply #5259 on:** June 04, 2011, 06:57:59 PM »

MaryPage, are you familiar with the Story of Civilization discussion here?

http://seniorlearn.org/forum/index.php?board=30.0

They have been going through Will and Ariel Durant's "Story of Civilization" for some years now, and are currently in the Renaissance. You don't have to have the massive book, most of them don't; the leader, currently Trevor, quotes or summarizes chunks, and people take it from there. If you want to try it, my advice is: go to the end of the discussion, go back one or two pages (if you go to page 33--they're now on 35--that takes you to the last time there was a heading) skim forward quickly to catch the drift, then just jump in with both feet. I think they're still in the Borgias, so it's probably right in your field.

MaryPage · « **Reply #5260 on:** June 04, 2011, 08:21:50 PM »

Yes, Pat; I was probably one of the most enthusiastic members of the original forum. At the time I was still living in Virginia and had met several times at various SeniorNet outings there Robby, who agreed to lead the discussion. I own, and have owned for over 50 years, the entire set of Durant's wonderful histories, plus all of the other books he wrote. Am a huge Durant fan.

What happened to me was much like what I have described above, and I left the group before we finished Ancient Greece! Entering happily and with total dedication into the discussion, I was also reading a history new at that time titled EUROPE A History by Norman Davies. In that huge tome I found a page translated directly from the ancient Greek language and written some two thousand five hundred years ago that showed crude jokes at the expense of peoples of different countries, culture and ethnicity are not products of our times, but were quite common then. This page told a number of jokes about a people the ancient Greeks called "The Scots." I doubt they were from the Scotland of today, but that is not the point. The point is, I found it fascinating how like in their thinking and speaking the ancient Greeks were to us. I had begun to realize we human beings have not really come far along in maturity since then, but only in technology. And so I copied the page from the book EUROPE into a post. To my utter dismay, some man, who was never in the discussion with us ordinarily, came in and protested vehemently against my post as though it were my personal opinion, and Marcie deleted it! I had to quit. I was like totally mortified to have been so misunderstood! What was meant to be an addition to our understanding of these ancient peoples in relation to our own culture became a total embarrassment to me.

So, to my intense disappointment, I have never been back to that forum; not even to peek in.

MaryPage · « **Reply #5261 on:** June 04, 2011, 08:35:41 PM »

The except from EUROPE that I posted in the Durant forum and ruined my reputation with is on page 121 of EUROPE by Norman Davies. At least, it is page 121 in my copy, which is a 1,369 page paperback of that very comprehensive tome. The portion copied is titled: SCHOLASTIKOS.

roshanarose · « **Reply #5262 on:** June 05, 2011, 12:09:49 AM »

I love the Internet - I truly do. Even though I am so far away from all of you we can explore each other's passions and interests right here. Jean, MaryPage - those two links were extraordinary. PatH I have never looked at our Story of Civilization page, but now I must. MaryPage, it so happens that I do have a copy of Norman Davies' EUROPE. I have had it for ten years and never opened it, much to my shame. I will investigate p.121 of that bulky tome.

Historically, I am stuck in Bronze Age Greece and more than happy to be so. Ever since I first visited Greece in 1982, and again in 2004, the Bronze Age has been my favourite time in Greece. There is something in the artefacts of that time that whisper to me and it is easy for me to imagine that Heroic Age. Mycenae and Knossos don't just whisper to me, they hold me in their thrall. Spirit of Place reigns in those magnificent sites, for me at least. Somewhere in my research on the Odyssey, I did find something about the Greek equivalent of the Scots. I will need to go back through my posts, there are several.... In Modern Greek literature much is made of the difference between coastal and mountain people, so perhaps that is somehow related. The Greeks were never big on being "politically correct" so it is a bit silly for that person you mentioned, MaryPage, to object. The Greeks have always considered those who didn't speak Greek bar bars (barbarians). If a foreigner (xeni or xeno)speaks Greek to a Modern Greek now, it is cause for a great fuss, free alcohol, free food, a lot of encouragement, and long discussions about Greek history, as it is so rare.

roshanarose · « **Reply #5263 on:** June 05, 2011, 12:38:11 AM »

MaryPage - I did a search using "ancient greeks and scots", it took me to Wiki:

Nomenclature

The term Doric was used to refer to all dialects of Lowland Scots but during the twentieth century it became increasingly associated with Mid Northern Scots.[1]

The term possibly originated as a jocular reference to the Doric dialect of the Ancient Greek language. Greek Dorians lived in Sparta amongst other places, a more rural area, and were supposed by the ancient Greeks to have spoken laconically and in a language that was thought harsher in tone and more phonetically conservative than the Attic spoken in Athens. Doric Greek was used for some of the verses spoken by the chorus in Greek tragedy.

As The Oxford Companion to English Literature explains:

"Since the Dorians were regarded as uncivilised by the Athenians, 'Doric' came to mean 'rustic' in English, and was applied particularly to the language of Northumbria and the Lowlands of Scotland and also to the simplest of the three orders in architecture."[2]
Use of the term Doric in this context may also arise out of a contrast with the anglicised speech of the Scottish capital, because at one point, Edinburgh was nicknamed 'Athens of the North'. The upper/middle class speech of Edinburgh would thus be 'Attic', making the rural areas' speech 'Doric'.[citation needed] According to another source, 18th century Scots writers like Allan Ramsay justified their use of Scots (instead of English) by comparing it to the use of Ancient Greek Doric by Theocritus.[3]

The Greeks could never resist a shot at the Spartans

Steph · « **Reply #5264 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:14:21 AM »

I remember on the old senior net, there was a womens only chat.. We had a man come in, who protested how much he was compatible and boom.. next thing we knew, we were getting orders from the boss. Being condescended by him and generally a mess. I had to stop.. I also remember that most of the politics and religion chats were dominated by a few zealots.. They got to the point, where I got private messages as well, so I dropped the chat and warned the message people that I would report them everywhere as spammers.. Never again.

Babi · « **Reply #5265 on:** June 05, 2011, 08:51:46 AM »

"..we human beings have not really come far along in maturity since then, but only in technology"
And there, MARYPAGE, is the seed of disaster! So far in our human history, we have managed
time and time again to pull away from the brink. I can only hope we continue to do so. We do
seem to have an instinctive resistance to allowing the pendulum to swing too far in one direction.

ginny · « **Reply #5266 on:** June 05, 2011, 09:42:05 AM »

Jean!! At first when reading it, I thought it was the wonder of the world!! And it may BE. Who wrote the biographies which are not attributed?

For instance I started on Egbert. (Egbert?) and immediately found this:

But Britain was invaded by the Romans under Julius Cæsar and his successors, and all that part of it which we now call England was added to the Empire of Rome. The Britons were driven into Wales and Cornwall, the western sections of the island.

That is not true, if I understand what he is saying, so one wonders who wrote this? Are the unattributed works from one man? Or? I see that some authors ARE given, who wrote the others, The Egbert (till now known to me as Egbert the Easter Egg), do you know?

Just yesterday I got a book, new to me, on Agatha Christie's 2nd husband, the archaeologist Max Mallowan. I had never heard of it, but while looking for Come, Tell Me How You Live by Christie for my daughter in law, (one of Christie's autobiographies, which covers her going along on his digs and which is hilarious and eminently readable), I found he also had written memoirs, and they are called Mallowan's Memoirs. They cover his upbringing (he was a classmate of Evelyn Waugh's) and his expeditions and life at Greenway with Agatha Christie, and so far it's fascinating. She always said the reason he liked her was he liked old things. hahahaa Several chapters on Nimrud. I do think archaeologists are possibly the most interesting people alive.

The recent Tut exhibit had an entire recreation of the tent that Carnarvon and Carter used, and the Carnarvon home (Highclere Castle, where Downton Abbey was partially filmed) does a similar type presentation, so you feel you are really there.

Wouldn't it be fabulous if one of us won the trip to see her home put on in the Masterpiece Theater Contest? See the Masterpiece Theater discussion here. (Is it over yet, have we, or rather one of you, won?) hjahahaa

RoshanaRose, so interesting on the Scots thing and your Minos book as I said in the Odyssey discussion, does sound wonderful!

MaryPage, what relation was Isabella D'Este to Ippolito and Lucrezia (and Caesare?) and Alexander VI?

ginny · « **Reply #5267 on:** June 05, 2011, 09:54:50 AM »

MaryPage and everybody concerned with ad hominem remarks: personally, to me, when a person begins either calling names (you must be .... or obviously YOU ....), when they lack the logic and background or ability to argue a point without getting personal, I tune out completely.

I just skip anything beginning with a personal analysis. The worst is those who feel the need to pull out their (hitherto unheralded) PhDs in psychology and tell the person who has an opinion what their psychological leanings are or perhaps give them a free analysis of their background and failings. Faugh. "Perhaps you are saying this because..."

Perhaps one is saying it because it's the truth? Of course truth is relative, or is it? My truth may not be yours, but you lose your point with me and I stop listening when it becomes personal.

Who needs it? So far on this site we've avoided it, so far as I know, and still can dare to talk about the ideas IN books. It must be our super group of readers here. I wish everybody knew about us. If you're on Twitter or Facebook, give us a plug?

MaryPage · « **Reply #5268 on:** June 05, 2011, 10:12:58 AM »

It has been my understanding that the internet encyclopedia called "WIKI" is open to all of us to actually write. Ergo, none of it can be entirely trusted. I use it all the time to find information which I can CONFIRM elsewhere. I have never myself written anything in there, so am not exactly certain as to how it works; but I have read that provision is made for complaints about wrong data and the WIKI staff will fix it.

End of my knowledge on that subject!

RoshanaRose, I am more than gratified, after all these years in exile from The Story of Civilization, to find you possess that book. When you read that page, it may blow your mind, as it did my own, that 2,500 years ago people were telling the same gross, politically incorrect stories about various stereotypes, minorities and other peoples that go the rounds in our "civilization" of today. It surprised me so much at the time that, as I stated, I was rather overwhelmed by the understanding we have not grown up mentally and emotionally, but have only learned to make more sophisticated tools. And I thought it was an important addition to the history we were all studying together to bring this to the table. Well, as I stated, this male lurker came roaring in and raised a hoo-rah and I felt like the little girl whose mouth needed to be washed out with soap!

It left me thinking things like, suppose we were all studying the various civilizations and cultures of today; would we have to leave out honor killings and genital mutilation and multiple spouses and genocide and such where they occur because these things are not nice things in our world and we should omit them from our pleasant bland perusal? To my way of thinking, it is that which is ignorance, and not the telling in full of how it was or is. When I was young, no one, I mean NO ONE, mentioned a person having cancer. It was taboo. It was whispered.

MaryPage · « **Reply #5269 on:** June 05, 2011, 10:27:13 AM »

Ginny, Lucrezia married a third time. This number three was, of course, a political marriage, as her father and brother kept marrying her off as a prize to would-be allies. I grew quite fond of her during my studies, and came to think of her as someone I may have liked. What rough times those were, however; and she died quite young by my standards.

This 3rd spouse was Isabella & Beatrice's brother. So they became her sisters-in-law.

Then she had an affair with Isabella's womanizer husband, and that put the fat in the fire. Isabella became her sworn enemy.

The ruling class lived dangerously back then. I suppose in some ways they still do, when you think of Diana and Fergie and Claus Von what's his name and the Arnold and young John Kennedy, to name just a few. I love to read the histories and biographies and put it all together in my mind like a jigsaw puzzle, but shrink rather violently from the notion of being part of that strata of society, either now or in earlier centuries!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #5270 on:** June 05, 2011, 01:11:41 PM »

I find as historians find more and more primary sources and therefore give us more views- i started to say more truth, but that may not always be accurate - and as i become less nieve, that what history tells me is exactly what you have said, " the more things change the more they stay the same." So, i think much of what human beings do is human nature and it hasn't changed throughout history. Some people lean toward doing good and being good, not always suceeding. Power and greed seem to me to be the motivators when people lean the other way.

I am anxious to read David Brooks' new book "The Social Animal". A Newsweek reporter says of it: "it's thesis can be stated simply, who we are is largely determined by the hidden workings of our unconscious minds. (ummmmm, that sounds familiar). Everything we do in life - - emerges from an infinely complex neuronal network, sending out signals that, largely unknown to us, assess and determine our behavior. Insights, information, responses to stimuli. are governed by our emotions.".

So much for free will!?! But it seems to be true in any period of history that i look at.

Jean

mabel1015j · « **Reply #5271 on:** June 05, 2011, 01:22:22 PM »

(sorry, my ipad won't let me add to that last post)

I just thought, i need to go back to my philosophy and psychology classes and have this "free will" discussion again with the knowledge i have 5 decades later from when i had those classes the first time. Wouldn't that be fun? We wld need to include Robby in that discussion and many of the rest of your who have a lot of history and psychology in those conscious and unconscious minds. Maybe i should suggest it for the non-fiction discussion group.

Jean

MaryPage · « **Reply #5272 on:** June 05, 2011, 01:41:26 PM »

In Vincent Bugliosi's new book "Divinity of Doubt" he appears fascinated with the subject of free will and has done intense research on the subject. I was totally surprised at some of his findings! He says that in the 803 page Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church, free will is not even in the index. It also does not appear as a subject in the 4,452 pages of the 4 books of the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia. Yet, Bugliosi claims, the religious leaders of all of the major religions and their subparts will cite free will when asked why bad things happen to good people. Oh, and the subject of free will appears no where in the Christian Bible with the one and only exception of a book that appears in the Catholic Bible, but not in the Jewish or Protestant ones: Sirach 15:14.

Things we take for granted can, when under the scrutiny of a master prosecutor, change their colors as vividly as old masters that have been recently cleaned.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #5273 on:** June 05, 2011, 04:12:08 PM »

Very interesting MaryPage, yes, free will is frequently the answer when agnostics or atheists question religion.

Inthe continuing saga of my trek thru Beatrice and Lodovico Sforza's life, i found these beautiful pictures of the Certosa of Pavia, a building the Dukes of Milan worked on for over one hundred years.thanks to Napoleon's troops we can't see all of it today. But the sculpture and bas relief work is amazing. Check out the "gown" of Beatrice on the tomb, let alone all that work in and outside the building.

http://www.paradoxplace.com/Perspectives/Venice%20&%20N%20Italy/Pavia/Certosa_di_Pavia.htm

MaryPage · « **Reply #5274 on:** June 05, 2011, 04:18:28 PM »

I got the impression that despite it being a "political" marriage, and I believe she was only 15 at the time, and him being a womanizer with many mistresses, that "Il Moro" was actually in love with his wife Beatrice when she died at an early age. Perhaps later historians have only been romanticising, but I like to think it is true and that he treated her kindly.

Tomereader1 · « **Reply #5275 on:** June 05, 2011, 04:36:39 PM »

Ahh, such beauty! Carvings, construction, et al.

I don't understand how man can see such beauty and workmanship and destroy it.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #5276 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:26:19 PM »

Many of the letters quoted by Julia Cartright Ady, an expert on the renaissance, indicate that they were each quite pleased with and loved the other. Beatrice apparently did make him leave his misstress, a member of the court and the mother of his first son. There are at least two free bios on line, one of Beatrice (at the "third millenium" site) and one of Isabelle D'Este, which include much correspondence between the sisters and others. If you google them, i'm sure you can find them both and maybe more.
The couple seems to have spent most of their days together in activities together.

The Beatrice book was rather boring for me thru the first chapters while the author was giving bacground, but when she got to Beatrice and Lodovico's marriage and the quoting of the letters it has become more interesting, especially since i can look up the paintings and the structures she is talking about. Their daily lives remind me of the families in the Bronte books - they do nothing productive! Hunting, falconing, playing "at ball" - i wondered what that meant and found that they played something like handball or "hand tennis". In the process i discovered that the first time a ball is mentioned anywhere in history was that a Chinese woman made a ball for her children.........of course, that's data from WRITTEN history, the first "balls" were probably played with in South America.

Jean

MaryPage · « **Reply #5277 on:** June 05, 2011, 06:45:26 PM »

If it is indeed true that the first ever ball was made by a woman, oh, I am hugging myself in glee. What a hoot!

mabel1015j · « **Reply #5278 on:** June 05, 2011, 10:32:30 PM »

Well, Mary Beard, a prominent historian in the first half of the twentieth century uses the phrase "woman launched civilization"! Her theory was that since women and children lived together in communities- as boys came to adolescence it's believed they joined roving bands of men who did not stay in the communities permenantly - women had to entertain the children. Therefore, they developed songs, games, drawing, dances, story telling, for the children, as well as embellishing pots, clothing, baskets; singing work songs and mourning songs etc. Etc. So it would make sense that making a ball of cloth or leather to entertain a child or children would fall to a woman.

Jean

roshanarose · « **Reply #5279 on:** June 06, 2011, 12:36:13 AM »

Many women rue that day the ball was invented. Some irony

Naughty Caro

for resorting to Wiki - I have never had any problems with Wiki and it is especially helpful regarding linguistics and language. It is all there in one package. However, I do admit that many people find it a bit "suss". So here is another link on the subject which I hope is accepted as respectable. I like it:

www.scotslanguage.com/articles/view/2203

Talking about what is PC, in Australia we tease the poor Kiwis unmercifully about their accent and their rural habits. I have heard a couple of good jokes back at us, I remember one in particular about a Kiwi noting that no wonders Australians were so full of ****. It is because we walk around wild life parks in white thongs. I like that one too.

I was once rather insulted in Greece by a very British chap. He looked down his exceedingly long nose and said to me. "Are you Orrrstralian?" I told him I was. He fastened his beady eye (behind his monocle) on me and said "Oh! And I suppose you have been to Bali, too". I was hurt, as my countrymen and women who HAD been to Bali had been insulted by the delivery of this remark. I didn't tell him that the 'plane he and his wife flew on from Sydney to Bali had obviously been full of drunken footballers, as most Australians are quite well behaved. Well, that means Gum and me, anyway.

C'mon Gum, Bite!

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