America's Prophet by Bruce Feiler February Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

     

AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann

Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.

When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009

LINKS:  Moses on the Web -- Bruce Feiler Interview on PBS with Travis Smiley -- Top Five Causes of the Civil War -- Historic Timeline of Slavery and the Underground Railroad -- Bell cast in England and sent to St Paul's after 9/11

Starting on Feb 1st, we will read and discuss

Chaps 1,2 &3--1st week
Chaps 4&5--2nd week
Chaps 6&7--3rd week
Chaps 8,9 & 10- Last week

Discussion Leader:  Ann

[JoanP]

So glad you could join us, Mahlia was struck for a minute at the concept of your husband's return to Egypt, since we've been concentrating on the em migrating flow from Egypt and other lands of oppression. My thoughts are with your son and his third deployment to the troubled Middle East.  Hard for a mama.

Thanks for the timeline of the Jewish immigration into America, Bellamaria. I haven't finished the book yet - have only read the first six chaptin fact - but it strikes me that we are not getting examples of the Exodus comparison from the early Jewish settlers in America as we did from others.  Surely they were as familiar with the parallel of oppression and liberation in Exodus. Have I missed something?  Perhaps there were so many quotes, it was impossible for Feiler to reference them all? Or do you think he is silent about this for other reasons?

On pg 47 the Independence Hall guide says "....a lot of people today feel that the Enlightenment was antireligious...that people like Paine, B Franklin and others were deists and didn't believe in God." Jean

Thank you for addressing this issue, Jean - I remember reading somewhere in those pages that Jefferson, Franklin - maybe Paine too, were not concerned with the afterlife as many of the strict Bible readers were - but rather with the here and now, especially the system of law that Moses had set up.  I need to go back and find the section in which the Mosaic Law and the system of government set up by the Founding Fathers were contrasted - and found to be nearly identical...

Annie, do I hear you saying that Bruce Feiler has shown us a number of Moses figures...freedom fighters- such as Sam Adams -  all following the example of Moses in the Exodus and then creation of laws based on responsibility and duty?  Can we all agree with that?  That Moses was the prototype?

[Babi]

Oh, very good, BELLA. You found it! I appreciate Mr. Huxley's enthusiasm
for the Bible and it's influence on the British people. I think it is a
misnomer to call it a 'national epic', however, since it is not about
Great Britain.

 Bless me, JOAN, how can we possibly complete the discussion of all
this wealth of material this week?  I've still got reams of notes, and
here it is Saturday already!  Can we sort of flow back and forth on
the various subjects as they crop up from this section and the next?
(I hope that made sense.)

Peter Gomez,  preacher,  Memorial Church of Harvard University  and Professor of Christian Morals. “Success is a very dubious  enterprise”.   “When they (the children of God) become successful, that’s  when the problems begin.”    Truer words were never spoken.  It happened to the Roman Church and it continues to happen in churches today.
  “The biblical mandate is not success, it’s humility.”  This flies right in the face of the very popular modern teachings  on the ‘victorious’ life.  But I think Mr. Gomez has a point.  Humility is a powerful keynote
in the teachings of Christ.

Then Feiler says: “If any one of these Moseses succeeded--Bradford, Washington, Lincoln, King---there would be no need for another one.”    I  don’t agree with that at all.  A great leader may succeed in
influencing and directing his own generation and perhaps the next, but the generations that follow will need their own leaders.
Each generation must learn the lessons over again and make it’s choices.  For every turning point,  new leaders must be there for us.

[ANNIE]

Babi: “The biblical mandate is not success, it’s humility.”

Truer words were never spoken, Babi.  As Feiler points out,  the lesson from Moses is that old saying that our parents must have told us a hundred times.
If at first you don't succeed, try try again.

And having never seen this example of Moses trying and trying again, with so much humility, I now admire his journey to the 'promised land' even more.   Teaching the  Israelites how they should live in the Promised Land which he would never visit.  Wanting them to succeed.  What a humble leader!  
His story seems so familiar.  Preparing them for the trip, he seems more like a mom and a dad advising their children as they mature.  I wonder if he urged them to wear clean underwear, just in case, an accident occurs or a battle.  Tee hee!

Babi:  Each generation must learn the lessons over again and make it’s choices.  For every turning point,  new leaders must be there for us.
 That is so true.

And hasn't each generation been sent a "Moses" over the years?  MLK stands out in our minds but even JFK tried to put pride back into our country's people by urging them to give back plus his brother, RFK, whom I suppose we might call JFK's  "Joshua" had plans for us.  Too sad what happened to those brothers who cared so much about this 'promised land'.

Mahlia,
So glad you are joining us and, at the same time, trying to help Mamoud who is back in Egypt with his family.   I just heard that they may have found the crypt of Antony and Cleopatra in Egypt. And that she was the last Pharoah. That's new to me who hasn't studied Egypt's ancient history much.
  
Bellemere,
Thanks for the links.  Very timely!

JoanP,
As Babi, says, there is a lot here in these three brief chapters but for each happening or person that Feiler mentions,  he will give us a chapter later in the book.

[bellamarie]

Babi,  I don't agree with this either....  I don't necessarily see leaders, prophets, people as succeeding when they are able to bring about change for the good of the world, and then it not being necessary for anyone else.  I see, that we MUST, at all times make continuous efforts to bring about change.  When Lincolm emancipated the slaves, that was not the end, we then needed their civil rights to be enacted, which JFK and LBJ were able to acheive.  We then needed MLK to come and bring about togetherness without violence with his Million Man March.  Yet we still have a very long way to go for the African-Americans, Jews, and other races to be accepted and acknowledged, the same as the white race.  It is, and always will be, an ongoing work in progress to live in harmony together, which means we will always need a Moses, Lincoln, JFK, LBJ, MLK Jr., Harriet Tubman, Hillary Clinton, Sara Palin, etc., to lead us to the next generation of acceptance, equallity and human justice, with the belief God does indeed want nothing but the very best for us.  

I took issue with this and found Gomes a bit cynical.  pg. 3 "And that may be the thing he shared most with Moses," Gomes continued.  "I think Moses, too, can be described as clinically depressed at the end.  I've done all this, God, and you do this to me!  There's a similar sense of not being rewarded.  And yet, you bargain for that.  You don't now God's will.  You really don't.  If there is any lesson to be learned, it is a certain modesty in the face of opportunity.   The biblical mandate is not success, it's humility.  You're not God.  You're not supposed to be too fat and happy."  "But that's not the lesson most Americans take from the Bible."  "No, they take American exceptionalism..."

In my opinion, I did not feel Moses was clinically depressed, nor looking for a reward in the end.  Yes, he hoped to enter the promised land with the Israelites, but I feel  his ultimate reward was him knowing he was God's chosen one, and would have eternity with God.  As far as the "mandate being humility," I feel we are taught to be humble, but I don't agree with "not supposed to be too fat and happy."  I believe God truly wants us to have all the happiness possible.  We as humans fail to acheive it by not following "His" plan and going off on our own plan.  We do know God, and we do know his will, he has made it clear to us, his will is for us to love him with all our hearts and to love one another.  To follow his commandents and to have faith in believing God will always watch over his people and keep His promise.

To say "MOST" Americans take exceptionalism from the Bible is a bit contrite and it's Gomes's, personal opinion.  Here, Gomes has no way of knowing most Americans.  He really doesn't.

Feiler has alot of facts and opinions from many people in this book.  This is where, from my earlier quote, I remind myself to "weigh and consider."

Annie,  Indeed,  tee hee.  That was quite cute.  

More later, got to run, going to see St. Ursula Academy's play, Jesus Christ Superstar!

[ANNIE]

Ah, Bellamarie,
"Jesus Christ, Superstar" has some gorgeous and powerful music in it.  Do enjoy!

[mabel1015j]

I find the dichotomy between the emphasis, respect, reverence for the Old Testament and the Hebrew language and Hebrew history and the anti-semitism very interesting. The quote from the president of Harvard saying "The Jewish gov't (the 10 commandments and the 613 mandates) was the perfect republic," set up along side of the 2% quota for Jews that Harvard had in place until the 1970's or 80's is mind-boggling. Of course, harvard was not the only university to have quotas, but that comes in the next chapter.

Does any one have enough psychology education to explain that dichotomy, i just don't get it? We need Robbie..........teehee................

How do you have reverence for a culture and banish the people of the culture? ................... jean

[Jonathan]

"Jesus Christ, Superstar" How about Jesus Christ, the latter-day Moses? When it comes to freedom and exodus, how about his powerful gospel by which one leaves the old self behind? For his co-religionists Jesus was an aberration in wanting to evade the laws they felt comfortable with, but millions have and do feel liberated by Jesus, and feel themselves being led to the ultimate Promised Land, The Kingdom of God. Here and now. Perhaps they're mistaken. But it could also be said that Moses led his people up the garden path.

The Israelites were prospering in Egypt. Feiler states that Egypt was the best place to be. Perhaps too good. Perhaps that's why God wanted them out of there. Strange that he found a servant in Moses, on the lamb in the desert, after committing homicide in Egypt, 40 years earlier. God came to Moses. Not in the still, small voice reserved for the humble, but in an awesome voice from the burning bush. And the rest is history. A national epic for the British, and for everyone else bitten by the bible bug.

How could anyone who had such rapport with God have suffered from clinical depression. On the contrary. He found such favor with God, that God himself dismissed the Angel of Death at Moses' passing, and withdrew his life with His holy kiss. Look for Moses in heaven still hobnobbing with God about torah. Like with Jesus, Moses would likely ask, why do you look for me in a sepulchre?

Isn't Feiler finding a bible epic in America? This is a provocative book.

[Jonathan]

Jean, the folks at Harvard, and throughout Christendom were waiting for the conversion of the Jews.

[ANNIE]

You pose an interesting question, Jean and one that surely our Robbie could explain.  Doesn't make sense does it?  A quota?? I didn't know about that.  Were the Harvard powers that be fearful of the possible power that the Jews could acquire if only they had a degree!  Yeah, right!!  As if there aren't many other excellent colleges around this country.  Who owns the diamond and gem industry in the USA?  HMMMMM!

Jonathon
The garden path??? I love it!  Is that where Moses was headed for when he was removed from the leadership of the Israelites? 

[Babi]

 INdeed, yes, ANNIE.  MLK, JFK, RFK...all inspiring, far-sighted leaders.
Perhaps, in the sense that each generations leaders take up the task
anew, they are all Joshuas in the sense that Pres. Obama spoke of.
  Glad to hear that this wealth of material in the first three chapters
will be discussed further later in the book. That takes some of the
pressure off, thankfully.

I agree, BELLA. Moses was certainly saddened to learn that he would not
cross over into the promised land, but not depressed. People with clinical
depression certainly don't have the energy or ambition to make sure a
nation of people are prepared and ready to go on without them.
  As for his other statement, I think the key word is "too". People who
are 'too' fat and happy tend to be complacent and self-satisfied, I
think. They don't recognize, or ignore, changes that need to made in
the world about them.

JEAN, perhaps reverance for the past casts a romantic glow one can enjoy, while the present is too gritty and troublesome?  So much easier to have as little as possible to do with it.

 JONATHAN, I am puzzled as to what you mean saying the Israelites were
prospering in Egypt.  By the time of the Exodus, they were slaves! Sure,
they were being fed. Got to feed the slaves if you want them to work.
But according to the scriptures, which I can see you respect, they were
crying out in their pain and distress.

I wondered about Ezra Stiles, and who the ‘us’ was of whom he said that God “is giving this land to us who in virtue of the ancient covenant are the Seed of Abraham”.   By my understanding, the ‘ancient covenant’ was made with the Hebrew people, and the ‘seed of Abraham’ are their descendents.  I found this site,  and I can see how closely  Stiles has identified with the Hebrew heritage.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ezra_Stiles

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,  I certainly did not agree with,  "Feiler states that Egypt was the best place to be. Perhaps too good. Perhaps that's why God wanted them out of there."  

The Israelites were treated so poorly, as we all know, they were slaves, so how on earth could Feiler make such a statement, so as to prove his point, that God wants to deny his people of too much goodness and happiness?  If we were to agree with Feiler's opinion here, then I suppose we would have to say the black slaves that were being mistreated in the south were happy to be there because it was "the best place for them to be."  Where is the logic in this?  You mention, "just maybe Moses was leading them up the garden path."  Am I to understand you are implying God used Moses to lead his people out of a place that was good, to a place that was not?  I just don't know how to respond to a thinking such as this.  So were the Jews also in a better place being persecuted and killed?  It seems Gomes, Fieler nor you, don't believe God wanted the best for his people, and question his choice or rather choosing Moses to be the one to lead, so you make the argument,  they were in a better place, then let's use the events of slavery and mistreatment in American history to disprove your theory, because by all accord, if your belief in Egypt being the best place for slaves to be, then it would have to hold true for other historical places that enslaved any race or religious group.  

Enslavement of any kind no matter where it is taking place, in the royal land of Rome, Egypt, Germany, Poland, Russia, the United States, etc., should ever be considered "a great place to be."   Forgive me if I have misunderstood your tone, but I sense you are a person who has little use for the Bible and has not been "bitten by the Bible bug," as you state.  I can respect the fact not all people beleive in the stories and scripture of the Bible, but for you Gomes, or Feiler to try to say God did not have the goodwill and love of his people in mind when leading them out of slavery, seems a bit provocative, if you don't mind my using your word, with all due respect.

Annie, Yes, indeed there was great music in Jesus Christ Superstar! I was in awe of how talented the high school students were in bringing scripture to life with their amazing acting and singing.  BRAVO!! to St. Ursula Academy and all surrounding schools, public and parochial, who participated.

I'm off to read the next chapters of what is apperaring to be a book of facts and fiction.  

 

[mabel1015j]

Are we at page 86 yet? I don't have my book any more, altho i went back on the "hold" list and will get it back in abut 10 days.

I found the info on the Masons very interesting, but i'll wait to hear from you if we are there yet................

BTW Annie - all the Ivy League colleges except for U of Penn - founded by Ben Franklin - had quotas for Jews thru the 19th and 20th centuries, even Penn may have put them into effect some decades after it's inception..................

thanks for all your comments about that issue...............jean

[ANNIE]

Can we please take the rest of the pages up to pg 72 and discuss the Liberty bell chapter tonight and tomorrow? Lots of history there that I didn't know. How about the rest of you?

Jean that would take us to Chap IV-A Moses For America.

[JoanP]

Jean, I too am interested in the Masons. (Is there a difference between Masons and Freemasons?)  I knew that G. Washington and other FF were Masons, but didn't exactly know what that meant.  I learned some things I didn't know from Feiler's chapter on them.  

I am somewhat confused that the same colleges that had a quota on Jewish students had a Hebrew language requirement for all students.  My husband explained that Hebrew was a classical language required along with Latin and Greek for graduation.  Still, I find it ironic that the language was required, and the Jews were restricted.

Oops - Annie, we were posting together.  Thanks for clarifying where we are now.  Is it possible to put the discussion schedule in the header - dates and chapters?  Or would you rather not?

[bellamarie]

In response to Moses being a murderer an unpardonable sin, I thought this site was very helpful in explaining why Moses would not have been seen as a murderer.
Here is just a small excerpt.

"The rules relating to the use of deadly force to save a third party from death or serious injury bear an obvious relation to the doctrines of self-defense. It is generally held...that homicide is excused when the actor reasonably believed the deceased to be the aggressor and the killing to be necessary to save the third party's life...it is generally held...that one may kill to prevent commission of a violent felony when he reasonably believes that such use of deadly force is necessary.19

Now the Egyptians...entertained a hatred to him, and were very eager in compassing their designs against him, as suspecting that he would take occasion, from his good success to raise a sedition, and bring innovations into Egypt; and told the king he ought to be slain. The king had also some intentions of himself to the same purpose, and...being instigated by the sacred scribes, he was ready to undertake to kill Moses; but when he had learned beforehand what plots there were against him he went away privately; and because the public roads were watched, he took his flight through the deserts, and where his enemies could not suspect he would travel...22

From the above it is apparent that for Moses' entire life in the Egyptian court he had to deal with government groups that wanted him dead. He had good reason to be concerned that his defense of his Hebrew brother might be observed and reported. Such a report would have provided an excuse to have him killed.

Conclusion

The Bible does not call Moses a murderer nor does it anywhere condemn his action in killing the Egyptian. In the eyes of God, and according to the law of most, if not all, human societies, this killing was excusable homicide, not murder.

The critics are in error in their suppositions that all killings are murder, that every murder, regardless of circumstances, is viewed by the LDS as an unpardonable sin, and that Moses was a murderer. The presence of Moses on the mount of transfiguration is consistent with both the Bible and the Doctrine and Covenants.

http://www.shields-research.org/42_Questions/ques10.htm

Okay...now on to the Liberty bell.

[Babi]

BELLA, I am surprised to read all that about Moses in Egypt. So far as
I know, there is no record extant concerning Moses during that time of
his life. We know only that he was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter, and
would have been raised as a prince of the royal house. We can assume
from that he would have been familiar the laws and government of Egypt.
But most of the quote from that site seems to be pure fiction.

Continuing on towards p. 72, as requested:
Samuel Langdon,  President of  Harvard in 1775,  said that the form of government handed down by  God to Moses  “was a perfect republic”.  I beg to differ.  It was a theocracy.  The only law was that compiled by Moses, and the final authority of the nation was the high priest.  The relationship between the various tribes was that of family, and the only  one who could call them all together for a common purpose was either the high priest, or a prophet raised up by God for a specific purpose.

 Definitions of republic (n)
..political system with elected representatives: a political system or form of government in which people elect representatives to exercise power for them
..state with elected representatives: a country or other political unit whose government or political system is that of a republic
...unit within larger country: a constituent political and territorial unit of a national federation or union

p.59  Tim Safford speaking  again ( I really like this man) “If  you do not have a narrative larger than the world gives you, you’re just going to get sucked up by the world.”

[ANNIE]

Babi,
I don't know where the idea of a republic came from in this reference.  I always thought that we were a republic due to our elections of our leaders. 



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dNpkQhaXnC0&NR=1

THIS MUSIC IS "THE LIBERTY BELL" march by Sousa and is the theme song for the Monty Python Show.
Originally it was written for an opera that Sousa never finished.

"Proclaim liberty thro' all the Land to All the Inhabitants Thereof"

And although this might have been their intention, the fathers of the Constitution protected the ownership of slaves.
A link to what Jefferson wrote:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal#Slavery_and_the_phrase

BG on asking his tour guide about "why the bell came to have such meaning."  She replied, "It's hard to get your head around a building,: she said.  "But the bell is timeless, in its shape, its function.  It's easier to understand on and emotional level."
As we go ahead in the story of the religious meanings and quotes from the Bible, we find that for many, the Bible was the only book in their households and therefore they understood when it was referenced and quoted.  "The language of religion is so ingrained in their culture in the forms of the stories, the aphorisms, the proverbs, and the the characters, and this religious language is readily adopted as the language of liberty.  They're searching for the historical precedent for their own actions, and they're finding it in religious rhetoric because everyone understood and could relate to that."
A link to "is" to "ought"--interesting.     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem


Later in our history, abolitionists pointed out that the bell's inscription meant  for all men.  By emphasizing the bell they hoped to deflect attention away from the Constitution that had enshrined slavery into law.  As the bell became so popular, it began to travel across the U.S. and made journeys by rail to 376 stops in 30 states including the world's fairs.  When, in 1976, a journey was made by the Declaration of Independence, was the "Liberty Bell" along for the ride?

And on inquiring of 'google' I found that it wasn't but it was placed across the street from its home base on a special display.  So, the bell we saw in '76 was a copy?

Here's a fun link to the trip that the bell took across the US in 1915.  Take a look at the photo essay of its travel.  And the "Triviata"!   Very well done.

http://www.ushistory.org/libertyBell/essay/1915.htm

What amazes me is the number of people who came to see it and children's clothing ie. girls' flag dresses and boys flag pants.  And were there electric sewing machines in the home by then? Probably treadle machines but certainly adequate for the task.

[mabel1015j]

Oh! Annie! - thanks for The Liberty Bell March, it's one of my favorite Sousa tunes, so much energy. I can just see The Music Man strutting and prancing to it as he did to 76 Trombones..................i can't NOT tap my feet to that music........and don't understand people who can sit still to such rythmns.....................

I'll be back..........jean

[ANNIE]

Oh, Jean, don't miss the Liberty Bell Timeline, plus the trip in 1915 and the Triviata. It makes me feel so patriotic.
I am a big Sousa fan also.  Do you remember the movie of his life with Clifton Webb as Sousa.
My BIL, a man with his own band and many music stores here in Columbus, OH, plus a friend of his,also in the music business, proposed that "Stars & Stripes Forever" be named our national march.  They went to Congress to request this but I don't remember the outcome.  I will go question 'google'.  And 'google' answers with a resounding "YES" in 1987.

[Jonathan]

Quote from Bellamarie's post

 'Moses killed the Egyptian before he had received the knowledge of the truth on Mount Sinai.  Therefore, even if his action in killing the Egyptian was murder, according to the Scriptures, Moses would not have committed the unpardonable sin.'

A lot of interesting fact and speculation in that link, especially about the nature of Moses' act in killing the Egyptian. The historical information in the Bible is so meager regarding the events leading up to the Exodus that the best and brightest minds have tried filling in the details. As for example, from the same link:

 'Josephus states:

One of those sacred scribes...told the king, that about this time there would be a child born to the Israelites, who, if he were reared, would bring the Egyptian dominion low, and would raise the Israelites... .  Which thing was so feared by the king, that...he commanded that they should cast every male child, which was born to the Israelites, into the river, and destroy it...'

When I suggested that the Israelites had prospered in Egypt, I'm taking into account the legends that they had increased and multiplied in numbers which had become a threat to the state. Egypt was, as Feiler says, the best place in the world, the richest, the most sophisticated civilization of the times. A revolution from within might have made it the Promised Land. The rich Nile. It didn't happen. The Hebrew people for whatever reason did not take things into their own hands, and allowed themselves to be seen as a nation of slaves, while enjoying the fleshpots of Egypt. The Israelites did not want to leave. Pharaoh found them useful. God, fearing they would lose their souls, wanted them out. Obviously His people were wanting a leader, and God remembered the hothead Moses and went looking for him. In the ensuing events what did Moses actually do other than carry God's threats to Pharaoh?

I'm not being irreverant in trying to figure out what actually happened in this bit of history. Issues and characters all seem a bit nebulous. The Hebrew people in Egypt weren't slaves. Just subject to conscript labor. It's interesting that Feiler is finding an historical replay in American history. The American colonists weren't trying to extricate themselves from a state of slavery. Their freedom wasn't a contest with the King. It was all about taxes and tea and political representation. And mercantile laws. For example, American merchants had probably found that they could get some things more cheaply from China.

[bellamarie]

Babi, The purpose for the link was to show Moses was not considered a murderer, an unpardonable sin, anywhere in the Bible.  He killed in defense, to save another.

Jonathon, Interesting how you refer to Moses as a "hothead" when I believe he was a man of great patience, to lead thousands of grumbling Israelites through the conditions they endured.   

I got a kick out of how many times it took them to recast the Liberty bell, and still it has a crack in it.  Isn't that in and of itself a symbol of government, and life?  It shows no matter how many times we attempt at perfection, it is not within our reach.  The crack shows imperfections do not necessarily deter us from attempting a task, yet being humble when we realize there are imperfections, then a final acceptance.  Much like Moses, the founding fathers, Israelites, our melting pot of Americans, Mosaic law and our own Constitution, none were/are perfect but just like the Liberty Bell, together these all stand for freedom.  

Annie, Thanks for the links...love them!

[ANNIE]

JoanP,
I will ask the techies to place our schedule up above.  I thought it was already there.  Sorry about that.

[ANNIE]

Well, its the 9th and we are onto another chapter but I have question for Jonathon. 
If the Jews left, after enjoying the flesh pots of Egypt, why are they back in Egypt with Joseph the prime minister of Egypt later in this story? Has this been an ongoing war? 
And for a deist, Washington sure speaks like a minister when he's giving a speech, giving all credit and honor to his God(Providence).  I think I will read part of one of those biographies that Ella gave us titles to earlier and see what the historians have to say about the faiths of our founders. 

[bellamarie]

Annie,  I am so confused, because Feiler seems to contradict himself.  He states most of the founding fathers were not religious, yet then he shows how they used so much scripture and Moses etc.  Momma mia, I am getting a bit frustrated.

[Persian]

But isn't that always what experienced politicians do - in any time period or any location in the world?  They use whatever will work in their community, political party or country.  In this case - religious beliefs - which may or may not be the foundation for the words spoken in political session or to convince communities or fellow politicians to one's way of thinking.  A "spiritual outlook" from a politician may be appealing to some, revolting to others.  A dedication to "following one's faith and Scriptural guidance" may place a politician in the forefront, while a fellow politician who does NOT seem to be so "spiritually inclined," may be dismissed as a "non-believer."
As a former resident of the metropolitan Washington DC area (which includes numerous houses of worship of several faiths), I have witnessed this first hand between elected officials and their constituencies.

Perhaps the Founding Fathers believed - truly believed - that their constituents would adhere to their recommendations more quickly if they were wrapped in "Scriptural garb."  Have you ever heard a politician speak about an issue and you knew instantly that he/she was outright lying or their comments simply did NOT make any sense?  But when they reference religious support (from almost any faith I can think of), folks of the same (or similar) faith tend to listen more readily.  In Washington it's called "excellent PR" or "working the crowd" and perhaps there was a similar thought pattern used by the Founding Fathers.

Mahlia

[ANNIE]

OH, Persian,
That does present quite mental picture of our founding fathers!  I love it.  G.W. and Adams and even B.F., using religious rhetoric, while working the crowd.
 
I have finally taken the time to read the history of Joseph and his being taken to Egypt by the Ishmaelites after he was sold to them by his own brothers.  I know the story but just didn't realize that he was in Egypt before Moses led the Israelites to the promised land.
 
We are snowed in again in Ohio and the pundits are predicting 12 inches or more will fall before tomorrow morning.

Yes, JoanP,
Moses as a prototype works for me. 

[Babi]

We are a republic because of our elected representatives, ANNIE. Which
why I took exception to Samuel Langdon's assertion that the 'form of
government' handed down by God to Moses was 'a perfect republic'. It
wasn't,..by any of the above definitions.

The story of Archbishop Ndungame really moved me.  For the first time, I got a sense of what the Liberty Bell really represents, even today. Like
Mandela, he was a prisoner on Robben Island and he explained what the
Liberty Bell meant to him. The guide on the Liberty Bell tour wasn't sure
if what Ndungame said was true, but the Archbishop said, "On Robben
Island, we always dreamed it was true". 

The reference to the fleshpots of Egypt is not from an earlier period.
During the years in the wilderness the Hebrews were often hungry, and
looked back with longing to their well-fed, if unhappy, latter days in
Egypt.

We have a comment that “The Constitutional Convention would play the part of Mount Sinai--and Washington would be Moses.  This is apparently based on a bit of oratory by a Boston preacher that
Moses came down from Sinai with “the tables of the Hebrew constitution in his hand!” 
Given the legal definition of a constitution,  the tablets of the Ten
Commandments were not a constitution.  (The bold emphasis is mine.)
 
 The fundamental law, written or unwritten, that establishes the character of a government by defining the basic principles to which a society must conform; by describing the organization of the government, the regulation, distribution, and limitations on the functions of different government departments; and by prescribing the extent and manner of the exercise of its sovereign powers.[/b]
    The analogy of the Constitutional Convention with Mount Sinai just doesn’t work. Some more of the political rhetoric Persian describes, no doubt.

[mabel1015j]

My education on the founding fathers led me to believe that many of them had some religious beliefs, but did not belong to any "organized religion." I think that may be what BF meant when he first said they were not "religious." Ben Franklin was known to attend many church services in many different churches in Phila including Catholic and Jewish services. but he was not a member of any of those churches.

Being  deists, they believed in a supreme being, but not in the Judeo-Christian idea that God is controlling every aspect of everyday life, but there is a spectrum of deism thru this group, i believe, as there is in every religion and w/in every denomination of protestants.   Therefore, they used the term "Providence, " "creator" etc. and could use scripture to flush out what they were saying because they knew people understood the "stories" of the Bible, or they used the scriptures as philosophy, or examples, again because people would know what they were talking about..................it makes sense to me in that light.........jean

[bellamarie]

Mahlia,

Perhaps the Founding Fathers believed - truly believed - that their constituents would adhere to their recommendations more quickly if they were wrapped in "Scriptural garb."  Have you ever heard a politician speak about an issue and you knew instantly that he/she was outright lying or their comments simply did NOT make any sense?  But when they reference religious support (from almost any faith I can think of), folks of the same (or similar) faith tend to listen more readily.  In Washington it's called "excellent PR" or "working the crowd" and perhaps there was a similar thought pattern used by the Founding Fathers.

Yes indeed, this present president followed a church for 20 years that is in direct conflict to his words he uses, and because his Reverend was revealed to have great distain and hatred for white America, he quit the church he believed in and attended for twenty years.  Now, he attends no church.   I do believe many politicians do this, and there really is no way of knowing what they truly do or don't believe in, as far as their faith is concerned.  Politicians go for what is closest to the American people's heart, their faith and family.  This president mocked Americans for clinging to their Bibles, but then stands up and uses scipture to plead to these same Americans to accept his policies.  Oh Mahlia, your post had incredible insight.

[ANNIE]

Well, I managed to read of Joseph's takeover of Egypt in my bible.  Although they were slaves, the Jews were living pretty well.  Especially after Jacob's return with his 70 family members plus livestock, living in ??. 

The reason I came in now is that I am watching National Geographic's  "The Real George Washington" who is not the GW we thought he was.  I will look and see if its going to be repeated or if its an older program, maybe our libraries will have it.  You won't believe this historians' story of our first president.

Here's a link to the free movie, when they have one available to show you.

http://www.watch-movies-online.tv/movies/the_real_george_washington/

And here's the ad for it.

He's America's most famous founding father, but much of his life remains a mystery. In this documentary from National Geographic, scientists and historians use the latest technology to reveal the true face of George Washington--both literally and figuratively. Uncovering Washington's history of espionage and slavery, as well as examining the clues held in his childhood home, act as buildup to the film's fascinating recreation of Washington's likely face with forensic artists.

[Babi]

  I can understand that Position, JEAN.  While I am a Christian, I find
I cannot agree with all the doctrines that have developed over the
years, nor with some of the teachings that flare into popularity from
time to time. Paradoxically, I have noted that some very 'religious'
people can be more judgmental than Christ-like.

  I have that copy of National Geographic, ANNIE, but I haven't gotten
to the George Washington article yet. I will read it, of course, but I
always weigh such articles carefully. It is so easy to slant a topic to
get a result that will sell better.

  The chapter on the Masons re-enactment of Washington' s inauguration
appears to me 'slanted'.  Obviously, they wish to exalt the role of Masonry in their celebration.  And there is no question a number of our
founding fathers were Masons.
 There is an attempt to find something of significance in the placement of Washington's hand in the Bible.  The suggested 'meanings' require a stretch of the imagination, IMO. 
  The story of the Mason's Bible itself, though, was most interesting and
entirely new to me.  Considering how often it was used historically and
the care taken of it,  I was astonished that I had never heard of it before.

[bellamarie]

I felt the chapter on Washington's inaugural gave far too much attention to the Masons.  I made so many side notes saying, (one man's opinion, or huh?)  I feel so far, this book has many  historical facts be it American history or Biblical history, but I have seen much "slanting" as Babi points out, to prove Feiler's own personal views, especially with who he has chosen to be his people of reference.  Had he chose others, I am for certain we would be seeing something different.  I'm in it more for the history rather than the analogies between Moses and the American story at this point, because I see too many contradictions. 

I was just a bit surprised that Feiler would be allowed to crash the ceremony, after not granted a reply or an invitation, then to be spotted at the end and welcomed by the Masons to a lunch almost celebratory in his honor.  A bit odd for me, considering he admits he crashed the ceremony.  This sounds just a tad self indignant,  pg. 86 "Had I really penetrated the inner sanctum of America's Most Secretive Society..."   Forgive me for sounding cynical, but the Masons sound more like a cult to me.  pg. 87 I asked Savini if he thought Masonry was a religion.  "I would call it a catalyst for religion.  It's a belief system that focuses individually on principles and patterns of living that Masonry believes are fulfilling and lead to a better society.  And yet it doesn't fill in the details.  Masonry tells you to worship a Supreme Being, but it doesn't ask you what you call that being.  It reveres what it calls the Volume of Sacred Law but it doesn't tell you what that volume should be."

This sure leaves you open to all kind of speculations.  And then on pg.  88 "Masonry became a gentleman's club, a civic-promtion institution, and  a pan-religious body all in one."

Again....I remind myself...weigh and consider.

Annie, Thank you for the link.  I am going to check it out.  Washington much like many presidents and politicians did much for the good of the country, and much about their lives were withheld to perserve their character for honoring them. I would never deny any person be it political or biblical the recognition for their service, although I do find it interesting to get to know more about the person, then media presents to us for what ever their agendas may be.  Afterall, everyone does have some agenda, we just don't always know what it may be. 

[JoanP]

Playing catch up today - keeping ahead of this monumental snow storm is more work - and yet paralyzing at the same time.  Poor dog - doesn't understand why we can't walk her today - Bruce shovelled a path from the back door, down the steps and into the azalea bushes, weighed down under what I think is now three feet of snow.  She can crawl under there to relieve herself - but is not a happy camper.  Is sitting here looking at me accusingly for not picking up her leash and heading out.

Babi - the "Mason Bible" confused me too.  I read what BF had to say about it very closely with curiosity.  He writes the it is "nondenominational."  What exactly does this mean to you?   He writes that it is a King James - printed in London in 1767.  Earlier in the book BF writes that George W. was a lukewarm Episcopalian - but he did read his Bible.  As you all have noticed, this was not unusual at the time. These people were less concerned with the afterlife - more concerned with the importance of the here and now.  The passages of the Bible that dealt with responsibility, duty, honor were of more importance than one's personal salvation in an afterlife.

 Feiler points out that it would not have been a coincidence that  GW took his oath of office with his hand resting on that passage from Genesis.  Amazing that Bible still exists, isn't it? -with the page marked by a Jacob Morton in 1787 where Washington's hand had rested as he took the oath.  Do you think this Bible has been opened to this marked page as future presidents took the oath?  I think I'm asking -  Is Washington's choice, of this passage, this call to unity,  still relevant today ?

"We may have fought amongst ourselves in the past, but now we stand, removed from our father and cut off from our father land, and we must work together."

[JoanP]

Bella, we've been posting together.  Ann, I am off to read those links now -thank you! I agree, GW is a mysterious figure.  I've a friend who has worked at Mt. Vernon for many years - and studied much of what is known about him.  Maybe she can help demystify him for us.  

The Masons... I'd like to know more about them - the Masons of today.  I've some notes somewhere.  Will bring them in to help us as we "weigh and consider."

ps Did you find yourself wondering whether the display case holding the Mason Bible in Federal Hall was actually destroyed on 9/11?  If so, then that janitor was actually the "savior" of that bit of history as Feiler describes him...

[JoanP]

Before I forget -

I won't be singing these hymns (two of my favorites} without thinking of Moses and this book - thanks, Bruce!


Here I am Lord *words and music)
Words and Music by Daniel L Schutte
© 1981
Genesis 46:2
"And God spake unto Israel in the visions of the night,
and said, Jacob, Jacob.  And he said, Here am I."

And this one -
On Eagles'  Wings*words and music)

Words and music by Michael Joncas - See refrain:
Isaiah 40:31
"But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength;
they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run,
and not be weary; and they shall walk and not faint."

[bellamarie]

JoanP,   Oh my goodness two of my favorite all time hymns we sing in church. It's interesting how these words have an impact, when so many times before we sang them and would not have thought as you mention they will effect you after reading this book.

[ANNIE]

Mine too, Belle.  I love these hymns.  They say so much!  
And JoanP,
You have connected these hymns to the books of Moses??  A genius, you are!

Here's picture of the bell at St Paul's Chapel bell.  This bell was sent to St Paul's to commemorate 9/11 by the mayor of London.  It was cast by the same people who made Big Ben and the Liberty Bell.  Mary and I spent half a day at the chapel reading and meditating on the miracle of this small edifice, oldest public building, still in use  in NYC.  

Well, that doesn't work.  I give up for the time being.

[Babi]

 BELLA, Feiler also reports the views of a Masonic leader he interviewed
who gives a differing view of the Masonic influence.  I think Mr. Savini
(historian of comparative religion and a mason)  has a more realistic
appraisal of Masonry’s influence. “I think it fits into the narrative of
America, but I don’t think it shaped that agenda. To give it that much
purpose is to assume too much about it.”  Savini points out that while a
good number of the revolutionaries were Masons, so were many Loyalists.  “Just because some of our ideas correlate with the Revolution doesn’t mean there’s causality.”
   My reference to 'slanting' was in re the Masonic celebration of that
first inauguration. Since it was a Masonic celebration, I suppose it is
only natural that it would have been 'slanted' to emphasize their role.

 It does seem to me that Feiler is trying to present opposing opinions
on different topics, though he does consider Moses to be a dominant
influence. (I don't think he was 'allowed' to crash the ceremony. He
just wasn't noticed, slipping in at the rear. The presence of a stranger
wasn't noted until after the ceremony. Hey, aggressive reporters do it
all the time.)

PAT, re. the choice of the Mason’s Bible?  Washington was familiar with it
as head of the local Masons, and  as a shrewd diplomat, using it avoided
favoring one church over another by using one of their Bibles. In that
sense, the Mason's Bible was non-denominational.
  I was astonished to learn how important and carefully guarded that
Bible is. A part of so many ceremonial occasions, and I had never heard
of it. I'm finding so much that I never knew before! This book would be
worth reading for that alone.

[JoanP]

I feel that way too, Babi.  I looked up Federal Hall and 9/11 - it seems that display case holding the Mason Bible was not destroyed on that dreadful day - but a wall of the building itself was badly cracked, requiring extensive repairs.

As I type this, I'm listing to the "Liberty Bell March" - thanks for that link, Ann!  When I first read the inscription on the bell - "Proclaim liberty thro' all the Land to All the Inhabitants Thereof"  I had no idea it was a Biblical quote - just an apropos quote to put on a bell to proclaim liberty.  Thought that BF was stretching the meaning of the quote to fit his Moses theme.  Then I saw the source - Leviticus XXV.10  Feiler writes this quote is from "the least loved book of the five books of Moses."  Because it is all about laws, rites, ceremonies?  To me, the importance of this book - is that is contains the Golden Rule -  love your neighbors as yourself."I would think that these would be the words that drew George Washington to the selection of  this page.
 Do you remember that Feiler wrote that Leviticus refers to the Levites - as "the tribe of Moses'  mother?"  I wonder why.  It was my understanding that Moses was "begat"  by a man from the house of Levi.  But nursed and brought up by his own mother.  Maybe Feiler wrote this because it was from Moses'  mother that he learned of his tribe's background.