America's Prophet by Bruce Feiler February Bookclub Online

[Ella Gibbons]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

     

AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann

Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.

When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009

LINKS:  Moses on the Web -- Bruce Feiler Interview on PBS with Travis Smiley -- Top Five Causes of the Civil War -- Historic Timeline of Slavery and the Underground Railroad -- Bell cast in England and sent to St Paul's after 9/11

Starting on Feb 1st, we will read and discuss

Chaps 1,2 &3--1st week
Chaps 4&5--2nd week
Chaps 6&7--3rd week
Chaps 8,9 & 10- Last week

Discussion Leader:  Ann

  Ella:I love reading the posts also, JEAN!

Moses is missing in action, JONATHAN says, and he now turns up in Great Britain in the company of Churchill!  (Nothing about the "glow worm" on my PBS tonight)

Well, I haven't read any further and I must.  This is just great fun isn't it!  

[bellamarie]

I'm so sorry I have to admit I have lost my enthusiasm with this book.  While Feiler has managed to cover much history American and Biblical,  I personally sense he had a personal mission with this book.  Maybe like Jean stated it was time for another book and this was thrown together.  There are many inconsistencies, misquoting, and opinions that lean to the way he wants the reader to see things from his own point of view.  The problem when you decide to include scripture to prove a point of view, is that each person has their own personal interpretation of what they see scripture saying, depending on their own personal place with their faith, religion, or non believer.  

I hoped this book was going to help me enjoy American history, since I never could throughout my years in school.  I did learn much about history, but I feel he took up too much time on one subject per chapter leaving me exhausted and bored.  I lost interest and decided to read a book called, "Go Ask Alice" by Anonymous.  It was a book my freshman grand daughter was required to read at Notre Dame Academy.  Wow I was blown away this book was read in a Catholic all girls high school.  Talk about an introduction to reality for my fourteen year old grand daughter...like I told her Mom, at least it was introduced to her in a Christian atmosphere and discussed with a responsible Christian teacher.  Okay, forgive me for getting off topic.  lolol

Anyway, I don't see me finishing Feiler's book.  I may leave it lay around and pick it up from time to time to get more history, but as far as his views, opinions and conclusions comparing founding fathers to Moses etc.  I have come to the conclusion that anyone could surmise the founding fathers, just like the present day politicians, drew from Moses, scripture and other religious leaders, etc. to form this nation,the constitution, laws,  etc. to help us all be able to live harmoniously in a country of diversity in race, religion and political ideas.  You all have been superb!  Jean I am impressed with your history knowledge, as I am with Babi's religious knowledge.  Mahalia, you blew me away with your posts.  Annie, Ginny, Ella thank you so much, as always its a joy to join you in discussions, and Jonathon, you always leave me in awe.  So carry on....I hope to join you all in a future book.  With my Lenten season beginning I feel I must consider giving my time to something of more substance and meaning for me personally.  No offense to Feiler, but this book just couldn't hold my interest.

Ciao~  Marie  

[Babi]

It's also true, ELLA, that the first Methodists were considered quite
radical, much like today's evangelicals and charismatics. So I wouldn't
be surprised that with the rapid growth of Methodist and Baptist churches that 40% of Americans considered themselves 'evangelical'.

  I see that I have fallen behind in my reading; I haven't gotten to the
Statue of Liberty yet. I find so much to ponder, discuss, etc., that much
of what I would have liked to say I must leave behind in the detritus.
Slowing down probably wouldn't be advisable, tho', since so many are displeased with the book for one reason or another...and understandably.

  I think Feiler was correct when he wrote "The more radical the idea, the more leaders relied on the language of the Exodus to align their mission with the moral example  set forth by Moses.”  That has
alway been true, hasn't it.  Those who are espousing new and radical
ideas need to find a moral precedent for them.

 I also thought Feiler's exposition on the Lincoln's Gettysurg address was excellent. I was not aware of all the classical sources he used, though I
am not surprised.  All 'educated' men of the times were drilled in the classics.



 

[Ella Gibbons]

GETTYSBURG. 

We spent a week there in an Elderhostel studying the battles, the valiant men who thought they were fighting for a true cause, Americans killing Americans, bodies of comrades lying dead in the  hot sun hour after hour.

It was a terrible three-day battle!

http://americancivilwar.com/getty.html

As President Lincoln said - we cannot dedicate, we cannot consecrate, we cannot hallow this ground; the brave men who struggled here - etc., etc.,

[Ella Gibbons]

BELLEMARIE, sorry you won't finish the book or the discussion.  Feiler is confusing, but there is history here.  I think the problem with our author is he is mixing it all up - Biblical history, American history, Jewish history, even Hollywood history.  Bits and pieces.

[Ella Gibbons]

BABI, I just reread your post.  I'm not sure that Feiler's assertion is true.  Radical ideas need a moral precept; we need examples.  Hurriedly, I am thinking of Hitler and a "moral" precept.   How about World War I?  The Spanish Civil War? 

 

[GinnyAnn]

Still reading!

[mabel1015j]

Jonathan says: I believe it would help to be Jewish to appreciate his story. That made me stop to think, you may have a point there, can you elaborate for we gentiles? 

Yes, we Methodists have always seemed very radical to those Calvinists and Anglicans - i can say that w/ a pure heart and no bias since my father was Methodist and my Mother's family were Presbyterians. ....... we M's did all that singing and carrying on during the Second Grt Awking..........by the time i was going to the Methodist Church in the 1940's and 50's, they were much more conservative and you could hardly tell the difference between a M service and a P service.........but then everything was conservative in the 50's wasn't it?  Altho my Mother's sister was very disturbed that my FAther kept a bottle of whiskey in the pantry - for medicinal purposes of course.............HAHA .........and he smoked a pipe and an occasional cigar AND he played cards, and had corrupted my Mother to the point that i was allowed to play games on Sunday, go swimming and roller skating  and even have part-time job on Sunday - afternoon, of course, so as not to interfere w/ my going to church.

Are we ready to talk about the Statue of Liberty? My BIL and SIL celebrated their 40th wedding anniversary a few yrs ago and their children feted them and us - my DH is his sister's only sib - w/ dinner on a boat ride down the Hudson River and around the S of L. It is just magnificent seen from that position and at night. I have seen it in the daytime from further away, but going right around the base, she looks so huge and majestic. I want to go look at some sites to understand the allusion to the "tablets of law" and to their projecting forward?

I can get the book back from the library again on Sunday, so i can read those last chapts. Looking forward to the Churchill references.............jean

[mabel1015j]

I didn't know anything about the book Marie mentioned "Go Ask Alice." In my circles many of us have been involved w/ saving Alice Paul's house and artifacts and story, so we speak of "Alice" often, obviously a different Alice.........for those ofyou who also don't know the book, it's a diary of a 15 yr old drug user. Actually sounds like a pretty good book for teens to be reading. ..................... surprised that a Catholic school would think so?...............those nuns are often pretty progressive, may of the women i knew in the feminist movement in the 70's and 80's were nuns - or often es-nuns...........................jean

[Jonathan]

Shaping up America. I do believe the author is trying to do just that.

It's being suggested that the book was intended to serve as a potboiler. I don't think so. The theme is too serious for that. Feiler seems too engrossed in his subject for that.

Amazing, where his biblical researches have taken him. After exploring ancient biblical sites all over the Middle East with so much success, Feiler finds a happy hunting-ground in modern America, picking up the darndest historical shards as evidence of God's way with America.

Some of his conclusions take ones breath away. His ambition is awesome. I'm bowled over by what Feiler does with the idea he gets from Jonathan Sarna, 'the leading historian of American Jewry. On page 201 we read, in Sarna's words:

'What's fascinating about America, is that it's much more formless than Europe, therefore its imagery is much more open to be changed and molded.'

Six pages on, after traversing many waters, both ancient and modern, the author has caught a new vision, namely:

'...the fear, experienced by each generation of outsiders, that by going to such a FORMLESS place, they will succumb to formlessness. They will forget the values of their native land and be lured by the worship of false gods.' p206

Isn't that so biblical. Just as it was in the beginning, when God found the earth 'WITHOUT FORM AND VOID' (Genesis 1:2),  and did something about it. And manifest destiny followed.

Sure enough, Churchill, in the new bio doc, gets his years in the 'wilderness and exile' and is seen as a prophet. But then it is well known that the English are one of the ten lost tribes. Or at least those who escaped to America. And like Moses, Churchill never made it to the promised land except for a lecture or two and several consultations with the president.

[Babi]

 ELLA, what I had in mind was that in order to persuade people to support
a new and/or radical idea, you need to provide them with precedents they can relate to and a moral basis they can feel good about.
  Hitler talked about a 'master race'; heroes that were part of Germanic
culture. Then the propaganda against the Jews was promulgated to lay a
veneer of justification for their oppression.
  You would know better than I, but hasn't any campaign to get Americans to go to war involved convincing them of the necessity? Persuading the majority of the immorality of the enemy and our duty to confront them? However specious the arguments might be, they were used by those national leaders trying to gain support for a radical action.

[ANNIE]

I have not been here this week as we were attending the funeral of my sister's husband over in Indianapolis.  He was only 64 but had been ill over 20 years and was ready to leave this earth.  His family gave him quite a send off including a military funeral.

There is so much to comment on in this book that I feel that I am way behind and we only have one more week for discussing it.

The book seems to be about the author's desire to show us how up to date the Moses stories are and how many leaders used the stories to back up their claims throughout the founding of our country plus other happenings ie. Harriet Tubman giving herself the name of Moses as she led the slaves out of their bondage and up Canada.  The Ohio River being compared to the Red Sea by those same slaves is another good example.

Then we find that immigrants also used the Moses stories to understand and explain their reasons for coming to the US.  Is this historically proven?  Did they really think about Moses as they crossed the sea to settle here?  Or were they understandably leaving a bad situation in their home country and coming to the states for a better life without any reference to Moses.  I am thinking of the 1840's thru 1900 since that's when my family arrived here.  Lets see:  That would be because of the potato famine in Ireland and the cholera epidemic in Germany.  Finding biblical back up for each of their trips across the Atlantic doesn't work for me.
But, I do think that they came bringing their different faiths with them and expecting to find a spiritual haven(church) that would continue to feed them spiritually plus help them try to restart their lives here in the U.S.

But where does Moses fit in to everyday life?  The commandments that he accepted from God are always going to be put forth as a code of conduct as are other codes in other faiths such as

Hinduism:
"Religion teaches us how to become better people, how to live as spiritual beings on this Earth. This happens through living virtuously, following the natural and essential guidelines of dharma. For Hindus these guidelines are embodied in the yamas and niyamas. In Indian spiritual life, these restraints and observances are built into the character of children from an ealy age. By following them, we lift ourselves into the consciousness of the higher chakras- of love, compassion, intelligence and bliss- and naturally invoke the blessings of the devas and Mahadevas."

And, Buddhism: 
The First Precept :
(Abstaining from taking the lives of living beings)
The Second Precept :
(Abstaining from taking that which is not given.)
The Third Precept:
Abstaining from sexual misconduct
The Fourth Precept:
(Abstaining from false speech)
The Fifth Precept:
(Abstaining from distilled and fermented intoxicants
which are the occasion for carelessness
which also includes drugs).

I found the "Mother of Exiles" stretching a bit until I reached the quote of Reagan's speech in 1986, pg 195, on the centennial of Liberty.  That has meaning for me. 

I wanted to say something about the Underground Railroad Museum (link in header).  When we were in Cincy, we found a B&B that offers tours to that museum and several of the homes that were used for helping the slaves to escape.  I intend to return to "The Queen City" in the spring or summer with the intention of seeing those homes and museum dedicated to those brave souls. 
I found myself most interested in Harriet Beecher Stowe and her brother Henry Ward Beecher.  Their home is still there to tour.  Henry Ward Beecher is of interest to some of us who read and discussed "The Last Dickens" as HWB was a part of that story as was Plymouth Church in Brooklyn where Dickens listens to HWB preach.

[mabel1015j]

Interesting comments Jonathan and Annie - so true about all religions giving us moral codes.

Is The Last Dickens in the archives of discussions, do you know? I'd like to look at that................jean

[JoanP]

Growing up in New Jersey we spent quite a bit of time on the other side of the Hudson River - I must admit, that I never tired of looking at "The Mother of the Exiles."  But in all those years, I never once thought of Moses and the story of Exodus...
I'll agree with those of you who believe that  BF does stretch the link between the story of Exodus and America's monuments and icons to fit his premise - But as Ella says, he put in a lot of research and there is much history to be learned from the examples he has provided -  from some of them anyway.
It was interesting to read of the period following the Civil War - the description of the change in America's society.  He mentioned Darwin, the explosion of the biblical 6 day creation....how we had changed from a deeply religious society to one with a secular core of beliefs.  He mentions the scientific revolution...and the fact that the 19th century had been America's Protestant century - but the 20th century was "something else."

Yes, I did find this interesting - but then he went on to connect the Statue of Lady Liberty to the Moses story - and he lost me.  Of course there was the "exodus"  from oppression as refuges sailed past the "mother of exiles."  But where is Moses in this story?  Perhaps he is embodied in the statue that stands in the harbor, but does not get to enter the promised land?
I was curious to learn more about that tablet she holds in her arms - which BF likens to Moses holding the stone tablet of the 10 Commandments.

I found this was interesting -
 

"The Statue of Liberty tablet contains an inscription of a text or series of letters which is actually the date of the United States of America's day of Independence (the year being written in Roman numerals): JULY IV MDCCLXXVI or the July 4, 1776.

Like many other features of the Statue of Liberty, the stone tablet is open to various symbolism and the accompanying interpretations to each. For one, Statue of Liberty tablet is symbol of the importance of commemorating historical events that happen to each nation.

The reason for this is because the date of one of the most important historical events that happened to the United States was inscribed there. Generally, it is a belief that without acknowledging history, a nation can never successfully progress to new levels of enlightenment.

To explicate further, a nation, together with its students, should learn from the experiences it underwent so that they can apply the lessons obtained to the present context and create progress. And, since one of the most important days of American history is inscribed into the Statue of Liberty tablet, it just proves how important it is for Americans to never forget that they day they declared their independence from Great Britain defines who they are now.

Another possible interpretation is that the Statue of Liberty tablet actually represents a book, and that book represents the power of knowledge. Knowledge is indeed power, and its power is potent to change and reform society.

The statue highlights the importance of knowledge by holding the stone tablet so close to her chest, where the heart is actually located. If we will interpret this even further, we can sense how vital it is for a nation to instill the gift of knowledge to the hearts of the people as a way of solidifying progress and edifying the moral state of each of its citizens.

One last possible interpretation that can be implied to the Statue of Liberty tablet is the notion of associative enlightenment together with the torch. Clearly, the torch is the primary symbol of enlightenment, but the tablet can also imply the importance of being enlightened in order to receive the gift of knowledge and to pursue the passions residing within one's heart.
It was during the time of the statue's creation that the world was experiencing a global scientific revolution wrought by the worldwide impact of the Enlightenment period. And it is also during these times that all the revolutionary and civil wars were fought in response to the growing demand of freedom and independence in both the U. S. and abroad.

Because of the importance of these historical events, they were put into a special position where all the legacies of the past should be imprinted, namely, the heart. And as previously mentioned, the proximity of the Statue of Liberty tablet to the chest implies a certain relationship that connects and highlights the two important elements necessary for a nation to prosper, which includes knowledge and passion. http://www.statueliberty.net/Statue-of-Liberty-Tablet.html

\

I read several more sites on this statue to see whether any of them would include a reference to Moses.  None did.
Feiler's whole point here seems to be centered on Emma Lazarus' poem - the one that moves everyone who reads it - every time! BF claims that the poet channeled Moses as she was "sparked by an emotional Jewish awakening" on a visit to Ward's Island where thousands of refuges had been "dumped."

Feiler attempted to link Bartholdi's inspiration for the symbols and design of the statue to Moses, but an historian of the statue, Barry Moreno, seemed reluctant to agree with him  - Feiler at one point asked him -  "Was Bartholdi aware of this lineage?  Did he purposefully connect Liberty's nimbus to Moses? "
-"I'm not sure where he came up with this idea,"  Mareno answered.  "Was it the Hebrews?  The Greeks?"

I'm with Moreno - I'd have to see some definitive sources that indicate that Bartholdi had Moses in mind when he conceived this statue.  It's an interesting idea - but not substantiated, in my opinion.
 

Jean, here's a link to the Archived discussion of Matthew Pearl's novel -
The Last Dickens
You might enjoy it - Matthew spent quite a bit of his time discussing his latest book with us.

[mabel1015j]

Joan - thanks so much for that info on the statue and for the link to "Dickens."

I hope we are not finished w/ the S of L section because i had a lot of questions about it and i need to go look up some of the answers. I haven't had time to do that, we've had sev'l family crises this week.

I didn't understand the Trachtenberg quote about "Liberty's tablet - particularly the way it is borne forward is an unmistakable allusion not only to political events but to the great Mosaic tradition".........HuH?

Also on pg 186 BF mentions "the significance of the S of L holding a tablet of law." As Joan's quote notes the "tablets" simply have july 4th on it to signifiy how important that date is not only to the United States, but has been for people all over the world who have since rebelled against there gov't and fought for their freedom.
As for a tablet of law - the tablet says 1776, not 1787, which is when our constitution was written - our LAW. .............

more to come..................jean

[Babi]

Only one more week?!!  We're just barely over half-way through the book!
I don't think it is possible to discuss a Feiler book in one short month.
We'll just have to hit the highlights, I guess...if we can find them.

 Thanks for listing the Buddhist precepts, ANNIE. I had only a vague
notion as to what they were.

 I, too, am finding the Statue of Liberty a very weak link in Feiler's
presentation. It might have been better to skip that one.

The post-Civil War changes is, I believe, an important observation.
JOANP mentions Darwin. Also, the big increase in immigration of people from different cultures and religions was bound to bring changes.
 Then, the first flight at Kitty Hawk occurred in the first decade of the 1900's.  The Quantum Theory makes it first appearance, and Sigmund Freud published "The Interpretation of Dreams".  Big changes, indeed.
Max Planck Formulates Quantum Theory
Sigmund Freud Publishes The Interpretation of Dreams

[Ella Gibbons]

I agree with JONATHAN, Feiler is engrossed in his subject.  VERY.

I agree with JoanP.  I see no connection between Moses and the Statute of Liberty.  As JEAN said, HUH??

You do not have to be an immigrant to these shores to feel the symbolism or the significance of the Statue of Libery; I was just struck dumb (unusual for me) when coming home from a trip to Europe and to see the Lady.

Hi, ANN!  Glad to see you are back, that can't have been easy.

Just a few remarks:

Pg. 162 - Feiler states that Lincoln understand what slavery was because he came from dirt.

Oh, come on.  He , Lincoln, was free.  No one, however poor they may be, could understand slavery unless they had been a slave.  Hasn't Feiler read any books about slavery??

It is very sad, very very sad, to read on pg.204 that a rabbinic student does not want to admit he is studying religion and feels our society is science driven.  This student continues:

"With our scientific eyes we can distinguish between true and false. With our religious eyes we can distinguish between right and wrong."

Is he saying that we have no conscience without religion?  Is that true?

[mabel1015j]

NO! NO! NO! Somewhere, maybe in Story of Civilization, we had that conversation about whether one can be moral w/out being religious? YES! YES! YES!.......................I had a note on that comment also Ella..............jean

[Persian]

In catching up with the recent posts, I thought repeatedly that even though at times Feiler's comments and discussion of Moses vs the contemporary world seem convoluted, it may be just that Feiler himself is reaching out - beyond what his previous works have been focused on and therefore what readers have come to expect about his writing. 

And, by the way, yes indeed it would be helpful to have a background in Judaica to understand some of the thoughtful historical prompts which Feiler includes in his work and the back and forth leads which he inserts into his comments.  For readers who have enjoyed Feiler's previous books, this one may NOT be easily understood or well received.  He is an author who has obviously made a turn in his subject matter, but perhaps that is a stretch for the better or just a U turn, which will eventually take him back to exploring anew his more understood former work focus.  And as an after-thought, it may be that as he has had to cope with recent serious health issues, he also chose specifically to redirect his research, writing and publication thrust.

Mahlia

[GinnyAnn]

I skimmed to the chapter on the statue of liberty.  So far I am seeing much of this book as a stretch of history.

[ANNIE]

I am not seeing so much a stretch of history but a string of thoughts attempting to show us a connection of our country's history and how it might have been affected by the OT bible and the 5 books of Moses.  I think that the more he researched, the more he found a long thread from the Bible and the Five Books to the founding and growing of our country.  Could he maybe have applied these connections to the founding of other countries?  

JoanP,
If he uses the 'exodus' in his comments on Liberty, hasn't he brought Moses and the Israelites plight as refugees into his thoughts on the statue and what she represents to arriving immigrants to America? The sculptor's reason's for using each decoration was very thin and sort of ridiculous.

Joanthan,
Does Cecille B. Demille deserve our attention here.  Was he really trying to show us where we were going wrong by becoming more secular?  By accepting communism?  Was this not the time when Joe McCarthy was out scouring the woods for spies?  

Have anyone come to the 'comic book' section yet?  

I like what Jean and Persian have to say and and I agree with Babi that we cannot do more than skim these last chapters.
I wish we could read your notes, Jean.  And Babi's!
  
Ella,
Maybe we need to suspend all disbelief? This is BF's presentation of his premise on our country's connections with the plight of the Israelites and Moses leadership. He starts with Columbus, then the Pilgrims, George Washington, Harriet Tubman, Ward Beecher, HBS, Slavery etc etc.
Yes, we did have a long conversation in SOC about morality or lack of it without religion.  And once again, I will ask my same old question.  Whatever happened to Natural Law?  Instinctive but there.  Even in religion classes, I was taught about natural law first.
 
International meaning of Natural law
Natural Law, God, or nature, or universal reason has given humanity a law from which the norms of all human law must be derived. The role of human beings is to simply deduce natural law correctly. There is very little agreement on the definition of "right reason," however.

And there is St.Thomas of Aquinas's reasoning:
Humans are capable of discerning the difference between good and evil because they have a conscience. There are many manifestations of the good that we can pursue. Some, like procreation, are common to other animals, while others, like the pursuit of truth, are inclinations peculiar to the capacities of human beings

IMHO, the history that we have learned or relearned here has given us another way considering our past.

I spent some time watching "Walking the Bible" video when I wasn't watching the olympics this past weekend.  While enjoying the author's trip of 10,000 miles, I became aware of how many people there were on earth before Abraham said "One God is the correct way to believe".  It wasn't that long ago.  What?  4000 years?
Ginnny
Hang in there.  We are so glad you are continuing to read along with us.

[JoanP]

Ann and Persian, after reading your posts I'm trying to look with fresh eyes at what BF is attempting to do in these pages.  While we seem to agree that he stretches the facts to prove connections to the story of Exodus  and Moses, he doggedly continues on with his premise.  He wrote of Emma Lazarus - " It took a Jewish poet to ignite a welcome to immigrants."   In the same chapter he writes, that something unexpected has happened...until now linking America to Moses was done by Protestants.  At the turn of the 20th century millions of Jews showed up on  our shores, bringing with them the importance of Moses and the Torah.

He writes of C B. DeMille - "He believed the biblical prophet could lead the world to the promised land of peace and prosperity." What do you think? Did DeMille succeed in "turning Moses into the public face" - in his attempt to promote biblical morality in film?  BF thinks he did as his "10 Commandments"  and "Charlton Heston were box office hits - de Mille intended to saving the world - asking the question "whether men ought to be ruled by God's law or the whims of a dictator."

Ann, I was  fascinated to read of Jerry Siegel's comic book characters - Superman, Spiderman, Captain America, etc..  Never did I consider Superman's Jewish identity - (or his connection to Moses!) I will always think of this connection when reading of Superman, the Kryptonite with superpowers - in a strange new land.

When I consider Emma Lazarus,  de Mille, Jerry Siegel, I now find myself wondering- isn't this exactly what Bruce Feiler is doing with this book?  Isn't he "reforging the Moses image and the central theme of the Exodus story on the American experience in the same way these writers, poets, film producers have done? He certainly has  given us plenty to think about.

[Babi]

 Hmmm. I didn't think the rabbinic student was saying we have no
conscience without religion, ELLA. It seemed to me he was saying that
religion can give us better insights into right and wrong, an insight that our conscience leads us to seek. 'Religion' as such has also been
known to lead us astray. As JEAN emphasizes, people can be moral without being 'religious'.

 MAHLIA, I hadn't heard about recent health issues re. Feiler. I find
that somewhat alarming, as he has been such a source of new knowledge
and understanding for me.

 I think we have to bear in mind that although Moses and the Old Testament are not prominent in influencing our thinking today, Feiler has provided ample evidence that they were in the early days of our history. It is not a stretch to make that observation.

  I like what Karie Diethorn, the colonial life expert, had to say. “You
have to remember the cultural life of these people is so vividly informed
by the Bible. It’s not the same as saying they were religious, but it is
the common language of all members of that society.”
 And, “The language of religion is so ingrained in their culture in the form of the stories, the aphorisms, the proverbs, and the characters, and this religious language is readily adopted as the language of liberty…”

[ANNIE]

Babi
I had a mother who not only quoted the bible (that she was supposed to know anything about as she was a Catholic) but Shakespeare to us all the time.  My favorite was:  "To thine own self be true."  A good reminder for all of us.

[Jonathan]

From Ann's post #220

'Does Cecille B. Demille deserve our attention here?'

He certainly does. Let's do another stretch. A stretch after all is good for the mind as well as the body. If Moses is alive and well today, he owes as much to C.B.D. as he does to  pharaoh's daughter.

How striking to have Moses rediscovered on Sunset Boulevard and given the full Hollywood treatment. But wasn't he always fortunes's child? Mansions and palm trees after the rushes and reeds of the Nile and growing up at pharaoh's court. What a privileged life. Of course he was most alive for his people in the Lower East Side, where the yiddish poets had a great difficulty finding even a blade of grass. Onthe other hand, could one even guess at how many Mosese came out of the LES to transform America? They must have soon realized that the Statue in the harbour represented challenge and opportunity even more than refuge.

Chapter 8 has many curious things in it, not least the humor. Feiler, given an opportunity to try on the robe worn by Heston playing Moses, was afraid to lift up his arms so as not to turn the world up side down accidentally. Fearful of doing a cataclysmic stretch?

America was given another life with the arrival of the refugees. With them came the birth of...' "The  American Dream is a Jewish invention." It's a profound idea, because once Hollywood, comics, and other pop media invent this idea, they help make it a reality.' p225 

What a different America than the one created by the Puritans. Reference to the Beechers got me digging out a biograpy of the family by Milton Rugoff. I can't resist quoting from it:

page 8. 'There is hardly a stranger story in American history than the way the iron creed of a very small sect, the Pilgrim Puritans, became the dominant code and source of the overall  attitude toward life of most citizens of early America. The Purians were fiercely independent, curageous and tough in the best sense. But their way of life was born of the needs of men and women who began as an embattled and fanatical minority, became wandering refugees and came to rest in a far-off wilderness where survival depended on loyalty and industry and on popitiating the God for whom they had suffered so much. Wringing their substance, as Harriet Beecher Stowe describes it in one of her New England novels, POGANIC PEOPLE, out of the teeth and claws of reluctant nature, on a rocky and barren soil, under a harsh, forbidding sky, they made a God in their own image and a religion in the spirit of their disciplined lives.'

If only they had had a Moses to lead them.

[GinnyAnn]

I find I am going to have to skim through the next chapters as I am at the statue. I find it slow going.

[Babi]

JONATHAN, I love your post!  What a refreshing take on DeMille's
contribution to the legend. I think you're right. My only reservation is
that a great many people left the theatre with a number of misconceptions
and took a great deal of fiction for fact.
  Thank you for that quote re. the Pilgims. It does much to explain their
strict laws and stern punishments. A harsh life doesn't leave much room
for personal indulgences.

 In the interests of quick scanning, a few things caught my eye.
  This observation seemed apt: "the American story....had become so
muscular that even objects with little transparent connection to Moses
could be reforged in his image".    I do think this is a good answer to
some our objections in that regard.

 I was startled to read that in the Reform haggadah, an American flag is
added to the seder table, along with a new question and answer.  I can't
help but think that this is intended to assure others of their loyalty. The answer, "America is the child of the Old Testament" certainly reflects what
Feiler has been saying.

 I had questions about the study done by Mr. Britt of Virginia State Univ.
He found 35 literary works featuring Moses between 1959 and 1998.
That is 139 years.  I can't help but wonder how significant that is. How
does it compare with works featuring other highly prominent persons?
I'm sure it doesn't hold a candle to the number of works about Lincoln,
for example.
   Feiler writes that DeMille's spectacular "unmoored" Moses from the Bible, and that this made him a "polemical figure in the great debates of
the day, which is one reason he stayed relevant".  I can see that may
be true.  Haven't we seen many guideposts and tenets 're-worked' to
make them relevant to a new generation?

  My last comment of the morning. A quote from the opening cards of
the film:  "The Ten Commandments are not rules to obey as a personalfavor to God.  They are the fundamental principles without which mankind cannot live together."

 

[ANNIE]

Babi, we were posting at the same time.  Sorry about that!
Jonathan,
What good coverage you have given us from Chap 8.  I thought that CBD's ideas for his movies were quite encouraging for folks who wanted to be reminded of their faith.

I had not thought of Moses's privileged  life in the pharoah's home as his being lucky.  Almost as lucky as Joseph!
 
Is Moses still alive for the Jews who live in our world?  How do they treat him or explain him?  Do they pray to him?  Or speak about his presence in their lives?

 Was there not a "Moses" among the Puritans? Too bad.  They seemed so staid and strict.  Does fear of God do this to humanity? or is that the judgemental streak in all of us?
But I see that you have respect for them and their accomplishments in their new 'Promised Land'.

When we read about the beginning of comic books by two Jewish writers, are we surprised?  Unable to crack the code for being published in regular books, they went another way and were successful.  As JoanP says, "Never did I consider Superman's Jewish identity - (or his connection to Moses!) I will always think of this connection when reading of Superman, the Kryptonite with superpowers - in a strange new land."  It just gives one another story to tell about our history in this 'strange land'.

Ginny,
Don't skim if you don't have to as these final chapters are quite interesting and worth your time.  You don't have to comment, just enjoy this author's take on our history and Moses.

Babi,
Our author, Bruce Feiler, has been battling a sarcoma of some length in his femur? (upper leg bone) for two years and so far his treatment has been successful.  The drs removed that bone and replaced it with maybe? a titanium one.  He was using a cane when we heard his talk on this book and explained why.  He has since written a new book about the Five Fathers Who??? which is all about these five men who would take his place when needed.  Its comes out this Spring--March or April??
Your quote about the 10 Commandments reminds of that saying, "The commandments are principals,  not suggestions."

 

[ANNIE]

Babi,
Yes, a polemical figure since CBD unmoored him.  Does that make him a saint in some folks lives?

[Babi]

 Oh, no, ANNIE, no praying to Moses. Jews pray only to God. No sainthood, either. Just respect for the messenger and leader who
delivered them out of Egypt and gave them the Law.
  I think Robert Franklin (another person I'm glad to  learn about) said
it very well.  Moses....."Number one, the imperfect figure.  And nuimber two, that reluctant figure who finally gets pushed onto the stage and says, 'Okay, dammit, I'll do this.' "

 I like what C.L. Thurston said, too.  "...in every crisis God raises up a Moses, especially where the destiny of his people is concerned." Were you aware that the Hindu religion teaches this also?  That whenever
the good faces overwhelming wrong, God raises up a man, a sort of
viceroy, to lead people to the right path.  Not only their Krishna, but Moses, Christ, Buddha, Mohammed....all the great religious figures are
raised up by God in times of need, in the Hindu belief.

[ANNIE]

I have to admit that I wasn't aware of the frequency of the duck-and-cover drills that our children faced every week as Katherine Orrison mentions.  She speaks of who Moses was to her as a child, watching the movie.  "Because what it said to me was you can be black, you can be white, you can be a nonbeliever but Moses is a universal guardian. I think the reason baby boomers emraced the movie is that it spoe directly to our childhoods." A universal guardian! I like that, because here's a person who is very humble and most unsure of  himself but rising to the occasion when asked to do so by his God, his Lord and Master.

What a sad commentery when Orrison tells of losing her friends, in the 50's, because her parents were divorced. Children can be so cruel!  But because of the movie, "The Ten Commandments", this little child was so impressed with Moses and the plagues, that on the first Passover after she saw the movie, she went to her refrigerator, took out some lamb chops and spread the blood on her front door.  She shocks BF, when she continues her story, "I've done it in every place I live.  I do it here!"  That would be in Hollywood and she shows the author her front door which has faint reddish brown streaks on either side.

And BF recalls Exodus 12: "You shall observe this day throughout the ages, as an institution for all time."  Moses was still alive in the Valley of Sin, says our author.

So, now we meet Cecilia Presley, DeMille's granddaughter who says that her grandfather was her life. "To him religion and science were not incompatible." she tells BF.  "Why did he remake "The Ten Commandments?" and not "The King of Kings" since he was so interested and believed in Jesus"? asks the author.  And Presley says, 'Because Moses is a more universal story than Jesus, and in the fifties a more relevant story.  Moses is the antithesis of communism and Grandfather hated communism.  He said terrible things happened to countries who had no god."

When the movie came out, CBD paid to put the Ten Commandments in public squares across the country.  

Then a judge in Minnesota, told a juvenile criminal, he would suspend his sentence if the boy would promise to keep the Ten Commandments.  "What are the Ten Commandments?" asks the boy.  The judge then spent years distributing 100,000 framed prints of the commandments plus 250,000 comic books depicting the story of Moses.  
From that came CBD's offer to have Paramount's promotion dept. pay for the granite monoliths of the commandments to be placed on courthouse lawns, in city halls, and in public squares in every city where the film played. More than 4000 were made, and CBD dispatched Heston, Brynner, abd other stars to attend the dedications.  A publicity stunt for Paramount became the basis of a landmark decision U.S. law that allowed the 10 commandments to be displayed on public property but not in courtrooms.
A movie!  and it accomplished much more than any movie had before.  

[mabel1015j]

We've had a death in the family, so i may not be here for the rest of the week. I will read your posts when i get back.........as i said - and have said in some discussions before - i may not have read this book, or maybe not finished it if not for this discussion. Even tho that is true, i have enjoyed the process, and as i said before, all of your postings......thanks for the intellectual exercise. I'll try to get back in, but am not sure i will have time..............jean

[ANNIE]

Jean,
I will keep your family in my good thoughts and prayers as they say goodbye.  We just buried my BIL last Wednesday so I know what all are going through.
I am glad that you have stuck in there with us and hope you can post one last time towards the end.  The site will remain up until March 2, for late posters.  Thanks so much for  being part of this more and more interesting book.
I do not think that Moses was one of our founding fathers but I do think that the people who came here to what they called their "Promised Land" were very bible oriented and their language used bible quotes as casually as the rain will fall. 

[Babi]

I'm sorry to hear of the loss in your family, JEAN. If you are unable to
get back, please know how much I enjoyed your posts.

  One small note...  I was struck by Robert Franklin's remark. "And the
fact that we weren't sitting behind desks, but were walking, making a
claim on public sparce, was important.'   He is so right.  It was the active, on the streets support of so many people that gave the Civil Rights Movement it's power.

[JoanP]

Well, I had to smile at "Moses in Red, White and Blue - Uncle Sam, "a surrogate Moses." DeMille cast Americans, all Americans, a blend of Christians and Jewish themes as Israelites,  united now against communism.  Was this true - or wishful thinking on BFeiler's part? 

Speaking of comic books, did you see where Jerry Siegel's first Superman comic book published back in 1938 sold recently for a million dollars?  I just had to do a quick search on the influences that inspired J. Siegel - to see if Moses is mentioned anywhere else but  in America's Prophet - does anyone else see Superman in the Moses role?  This page might be of interest -

"Because Siegel and Shuster were both Jewish, some religious commentators and pop-culture scholars such as Rabbi Simcha Weinstein and British novelist Howard Jacobson suggest that Superman's creation was partly influenced by Moses,[42][43] and other Jewish elements. Superman's Kryptonian name, "Kal-El", resembles the Hebrew words קל-אל, which can be taken to mean "voice of God".[44][45]. The suffix "el", meaning "(of) God"[46] is also found in the name of angels (e.g. Gabriel, Ariel), who are flying humanoid agents of good with superhuman powers. Jewish legends of the Golem have been cited as worthy of comparison,[47] a Golem being a mythical being created to protect and serve the persecuted Jews of 16th century Prague and later revived in popular culture in reference to their suffering at the hands of the Nazis in Europe during the 1930s and 1940s."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman#Influences

(from the first issue back in 1938)
Did you save yours?

[JoanP]

Babi - I think the parallel between MLK and Moses in one of the stongest examples Bruce Feiler brings to our attention in his book.  I hope we don't skim through the Civil Rights section...

King, the so-so public speaker, weak, fleeing his past, can't speak well, yet a leader, ...full of self doubt and yet rises to the the occasion and saves the day.

I see MLK more as America's Prophet - than Superman, for example.

[ANNIE]

Did anyone else see Glenn Beck tonight? Bruce Feiler announced on his blog on Wednesday that he was going to be on this program. There were three authors telling about their books and Bruce Feilor speaking on his take on the Statue of Liberty.  And there was Glenn Beck reading Emma Lazurus poem as he thinks it should be read.  The other two authors--one had written  about  big country's leaders and the other one was entitled, "The Survivors Guide".  Good segment and a surprise!

Bruce Feiler is the first author to speak so watch this:

Here's a link:  http://video.foxnews.com/?playlist_id=86917

[Ella Gibbons]

My book is back at the Library, but I am reading all the posts.  I love movies, particularly the old ones, and whether I have seen them before or not sometimes I watch the good ones on TV again, being more adept, I think, at listening.  At first view and particularly when I was younger, my taste was very different.

But for some reason I never saw the TEN COMMANDMENTS.  At one time I remember thinking they shouldn't portray biblical figures, leave something to our imagination, our own viewpoints; much the same way that I disaproved of our church having a play at Easter portraying Jesus' crucifixion.  Leave it in the Bible, please, I beg and not in the human realm.  But, of course, that's a personal opinion.

Superman, MLK - Moses' figures.  I leave it to Feiler.

It was a good discussion.  Thanks, Ann, for bringing the book to our attention.

[ANNIE]

So now we come to Martin Luther King who, IMHO, is Moses to the African Americans in our country.  And as we read this part, we meet an unfamiliar novelist Zora Neale Hurston who studied Ethography at Barnard College and discovered that Moses had been a preeminent figure in voodoo as as other religions across the Carribean and Africa.  She says "The worship of Moses recalls the hard-to-explain fact that wherever the Negro is found, there are traditional tales of Moses and his supranatural powers that are not in the Bible." She claims that Moses power doesn't flow from the Ten Commandments.  My question?  How did these people in the other countries hear of Moses?

Inspired by another preacher, Franklin, MLK brought the message of self reliance to his people and urged them to demand their freedom in the freedom marches.  He stressed that besides liberation, his marchers must develop standards of dignity and self-respect.  He predicted that he would not see "the promomised land" on the eve of his death.  "Freedom from evil is slavery to goodness" said King. And with that goodness comes certain duties--to respect others, to respect yourself, not to strike back and to practice non-violence.  Freedom, in other words, comes with responsibility."  The twin message of America's founding---revolution with constitution--now becomes the watchword of America's refounding.  Once again the language points to the Exodus and Moses and the ten commandments.

We hear Andrew Young say to BF that we live in biblical times.  He even tells of growing up fifty yards from the German American Bund.  I have to look that up.  Here's one description:
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005684

A pro German group, strongly anti-semitic and anti-Communist and who supported Hitler.  

In this chapter we find the connection of the Jews to the MLK and his peaceful marches.  The Jews felt so strongly supportive of MLK, that they joined him in Selma, Alabama 1961, on  the first  march.     
They were surprised to discover that the African Americans heard many sermons quoting Moses and the Israelites  in their churches.  That the Exodus strengthened these souls and gave them the confidence to insist on their freedom, rang true with the Jews.  King and Rabbi Heschel, a Polish rabbi emmigre' who had see what Hitler could do, formed a sort of partnership.  
We learn that a number of founders of the NAACP were Jewish. Two thirds of the Freedom Riders were Jewish as were 50% of the Mississippi Summer volunteers of 1964.  The Civil Rights Act of 1964 and Voting Rights Act of 1965 were both drafted in the conference room of the Reform Jewish Movement in Washington.  Amazing!

[Babi]

 In his last speech, MLK refers to the many changes taking place around the world...the battle
against apartheid in South Africa,  Kenyan independence in 1965, Ghana independence in
1957.   These movements must have fed and strengthened one another, don't you think?
  Who was it said, "There is nothing more powerful than an idea whose time has come."?

   I was struck sharply and painfully by the truth of  Bayard Rustin’s words to  MLK..”…I don’t see how you can make the challenge you are making here without a very real possibility of  your being murdered.”  It was true, and these men knew it, and went ahead anyway.  Not just a slim possibility, but a very real one. I don’t know how they did it.
  I do know that while I rejoiced and was proud when Barack Obama became our first African-American President, I was also tense with anxiety that some blind idiot would try to kill him.
His risk is higher than most of our Presidents, and I'm sure he knows it.  He never lets that
awareness stop him from doing, publicly, whatever he believes needs doing.  He has my deep
respect.

    It’s sad, ironic even, that a man of Martin Luther King’s  fame, education, credentials, honors,  and gifts was killed on the balcony of a small motel because he couldn’t get rooms anywhere else in the city.  He died supporting a protest by a group of wronged sewer workers.
  Rev. Kyles was right.  The premature deaths of great leaders does more to establish them as heroes and legends than a long life could have done.