Author Topic: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online  (Read 41214 times)

jane

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #120 on: November 11, 2009, 04:16:47 PM »
I think the "plumb some"  just about sums up my life in two words! :D


jane

salan

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #121 on: November 11, 2009, 04:56:13 PM »
Another interesting choice of words on pg 106-"before his long time friend and agent had woken up dead".  Ummm, how does one wake up dead??
Many of your comments on Griffin have made me re-think my attitude toward him.  That is one of the things that make sharing books with others rewarding.  Frequently things are pointed out that give me pause for thought. 
Sally

bellamarie

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #122 on: November 11, 2009, 11:41:25 PM »
Sally, I would never have thought I would finish this book, let alone see it the way I do now.  I had given up on the first three capters and ready to throw the book across the room.  I'm so glad I stuck it out and listened to the author's interviews and allowed my mind to remain open as I read the posts.  The author has done a good job with showing us the emotions of Jack in chapters 5 & 6.  I find myself relating to him and rooting for him.  Imagine that!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Babi

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #123 on: November 12, 2009, 08:26:53 AM »
 
Quote
"I think the "plumb some"  just about sums up my life in two words!"
JANE.   ;)  Yes, indeedy!
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #124 on: November 12, 2009, 09:26:42 AM »
Smirt. I love this chapter, Chapter 5 itself is a SMIRT,  and I have to admit I did not get Smirt at first, did you? Be honest. But I did get it and not with a couple of drinks, how clever. I think that somewhere Russo says that's a real sign or was inspired by a real sign somewhere.

Chapter 5 is a good one. It's symbolic of everything in the book.

"The problem seemed to be that you could put a couple thousand miles between yourself and your parents, and make clear to them that in doing so you meant to reject their values, but how did you distance yourself from your own inheritance?"

...and he acknowledges his quest for happiness, is a not finished piece of business and he hasn't rejected them entirely: "Joy maintained, for example, that he was inclined to locate happiness not in the present, as she did, but in some vague future."

Another somewhat startling thing about his parents was their constant renting and the fact that "how careless Griffin's parents were with other people's possessions. One professor returning from a European sabbatical would find that her china service for ten had become a service for seven…"

I passed right over that originally, another nail in the dysfunctional coffin,  but now all those lists of "dilapidations" as the British call them seem to scream. These are people with no respect and no regard for anybody. They would not come near any house I owned, just imagine.

The professor who called from Italy specially to remind them to keep the water dripping, did you see the reaction from both parents? One called her a name and said "she doesn't even realize she's projecting, and the father said, "what she wanted to impress on us was that she's in Tuscany while we're suck in f…..Indiana."

Everything revolves around them, everything is an insult or an affront to them, what narcissistic people.

Er… The pipes burst, the floor was underwater and it would seem that Griffin's parents would have had such bills that their salaries would not cover them. Griffin's father even picked the locks of the safe cupboards!

If they didn't buy they wouldn't be saddled when the big break came on, the call to Sarah Lawrence (would they have owned a house then? Been happy?) but they can't save (no wonder)..

Now this one I did mark in the book originally:

"Indeed, they exhibited the professional humanist's utter cluelessness where money was concerned."

Is that true, do you think?

If it is, is it an affectation or something else?

 A bungee cord secures the trunk?

And then the dismisiveness of Joy's parents:

"Boorish know-nothings… Proud of their ignorance."

And Griffin says, "Maybe you just know different things."

This entire subject is electric, to me. Have you not known people who were proud of their ignorance? I have. But maybe they just knew different things. Here I think Russo hits on the essence of snobbishness and...pride. I have known people dismissive of others and proud of their ignorance, they are maddening.  What does that say about ME? What a double edged sword "judgment" is.

Griffin says his parents were now whispering to him that they'd been right all along. It's all in this chapter SMIRT and just as mixed up. I think the key to the entire book is here.

 Are Harve and his wife any less dysfunctional, I wonder, than Griffin's parents? It seems that the decision not to and then to borrow money was a bad one for  Griffin's marriage. Why does he think that Joy's contentment with "her" house the "true cause of his funk?"

Tommy's in this chapter, too,  and so is the screen writing, and so is the new woman is in this chapter, in some ways Chapter 5 is an outline of the entire book. But what's the solution to the SMIRT he introduces here?

I like the way he's unfolding things, carefully like peeling back an onion, like solving the SMIRT,  but only asking questions and making no conclusions. He makes the reader make the conclusions, do we have enough information to do that now? If we  do, what are they?

IS Griffin as judgmental in his own way as his parents are? And is his fight NOT to be the real problem? Is he being true I guess I'm wondering, to himself?

bellamarie

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #125 on: November 12, 2009, 11:38:41 AM »
Ginny,
Quote
I passed right over that originally, another nail in the dysfunctional coffin,  but now all those lists of "dilapidations" as the British call them seem to scream. These are people with no respect and no regard for anybody. They would not come near any house I owned, just imagine.

This totally drove me bonkers when I read it.  Like I mentioned in an earlier post, I thought Russo may have gone a bit over the top with describing his parents to be so uncaring and careless of others properties.  But, yes, I have met a few people in my life like these two ingrates.  lol  I just shake my head and ask how anyone could really NOT care about others possessions?

For me personally, chapters 5 & 6 have only begun to show Jack's emotions for others, which has finally gotten me to begin liking this story.  As far as conclusions...we have a ways to go for that, but I fear Russo is setting us up to accept a happily ever after ending in these two chapters.  It's like when you watch a movie, there is always some point in the movie you begin to shift positions because, the writer is attempting to try to get you, to accept the ending.  Not that we always do regardless of how the writer concludes it.  But then again, maybe its not about accepting anything, maybe its..... food for thought.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #126 on: November 13, 2009, 12:08:32 AM »
It was a long day and I had no time for the computer until a little while ago.
But I must reply to your insightful posts.  
Chapters 5 and 6 provide much sorely needed background information.  Both are well written. Russo is a brilliant observer.  I believe what the narrator tell us about the entertainment industry is based on Russo's own experience. It looks so glamorous, but isn't it all a bit shallow?  Writers change agents and travel in different circles, lose touch, as Tommy did with Sid.  And then Sid died.

Sally,  we see that Griffin and Tommy shared a special "lingo", which seems flippant, even inappropriate at times,  with all those (almost obligatory) f- words.  
The phrase Tommy used of "Sid turning up dead" is nonsensical, of course, coarse even, but that's the way they talked!    I believe Tommy was genuinely sorry about Sid's sudden death and Griffin, too, was shocked.  Is a certain cynicism  inevitable perhaps when screen writers spend their professional lives inventing stories and characters and put words in their mouths?

Ginny, regarding SCRIMT, I didn't pause trying to make sense of those strangely spaced non-words; I was too anxious to continue reading. And I had a hunch the narrator was having  fun putting one over on the reader.  That is typical of this book. Nothing is quite what it seems.

Was Griffin a snob like his parents? Good question.

I don't think the narrator ever describes the parents as snobs. That is implied and it is the reader's distinct impression.  But snobs come in all varieties, some are merely imitators. TOften they are the nouveaux riches, called "arrivises.  But I don' believe the elder Griffins d in that category.

They didn't imitate anyone. They did have an exaggerated sense of their  own superiority, a totally unwarranted sense of entitledment, as the son says,  in short, an arrogance beyond measure.  They were good at what they did, of that there is no question, but in their personal lives and as parents they failed miserably.  They were intellectual snobs, I believe.  

So, was Griffin like them?

In a way he was.  I believe he  was condescending.  The first sign is on pg. 4 where he says  about Joy,
She was forever mixing metaphors, claiming something was "a tough line to hoe". Row to hoe? Line to walk? Her sisters, Jane and June, were even worse.
He felt he was superior.
Oho, I thought.  Here it comes.  That's the beginning.  

Yes, I believe it's true that the senior Griffins were clueless about a great many things. They didn't want to be saddled with a house; they wanted to remain "flexible" if the next opportunity came. They were perennial renters,  forever impermanent, and on a downward spiral.  They were impulse buyers, the son tells us.
Bought things they didn't need. Things they put together, haphazardly.  It's easy to imagine the result, and those scenes are funny.  The desk where a drawer is opened and another one opens in sympathy, or a book case  where one shelf is put in backwards.  But why this deterioration? Father Griffin's accidents?  And picking padlocks?  WAs it the affairs they each had, confessed to and committed again?

Treating other people's possessions with disdain and, in the case of the burst pipes, deliberate negligence?
That's perverse.  Were they secretly envious of the people who owned these houses and  punished them with neglect,  even theft?  The hoped-for better jobs never materialized, the end was not pretty.

Imagine what it must have been like for the son to be called by State Police and asked to identify the body of his father, found in the passenger seat of his dilapidated car, the lid of the trunk held closed with a bungee cord?  
And the implication that he had not been alone in the car?  Raising the question  whether the anonymous caller, who told police there was an abandoned car at a rest spot parking lot on the Massachusetts Turnpike,  could have  been the driver of the car? One of the father's students?  
What about the strong possibility that the elder Griffin  was on his way to the Cape - headed in a direction opposite to his son's home in Connecticut?

It's getting late again.  More tomorrow. Thank you.

PatH

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #127 on: November 13, 2009, 08:45:48 AM »
SMIRT SPOILER!

I didn't get smirt until yesterday, and then I felt like I ought to have seen it sooner, but at least I didn't have to drink 2 martinis to get it.  The gothic letters over the bar are a perfectly ordinary verse, but are divided in the middle of the words. run it all together in your mind, then divide it up into real words. Smirt is the last letter of one word and the first 4 of the next.

But that's not what it means to Griffin.  He's thinking of it as some sort of derogatory word.  (He gets bird smirt on his shirt.)

PatH

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #128 on: November 13, 2009, 08:48:24 AM »
Indeed, we've been given a lot of necessary past history in 5 and 6, and they also seem to be a set-up for whatever will come next.

bellamarie

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #129 on: November 13, 2009, 09:55:27 AM »
PatH....
Quote
The gothic letters over the bar are a perfectly ordinary verse, but are divided in the middle of the words. run it all together in your mind, then divide it up into real words. Smirt is the last letter of one word and the first 4 of the next.

How clever of you to realize this.  I gave it very little thought and just kept right on reading.  I decided if it meant anything, Russo would get us there in the next few pages.  Knowing the name of this chapter was "SMIRT" and no one was able to figure it out there at the bar, I decided to wait for it to reveal itself later, assuming Russo would indeed reveal it.  ???
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

serenesheila

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #130 on: November 14, 2009, 03:34:55 PM »
I have reached the end of the book.  Overall, I dd not like this book.  I finally found a little humor in Chapters 8-11.  In fact, I finally laughed out loud in Chapter 9.  Now, that I have finished the book, I am wondering what was the point?!

I do not plan to read another of this author's books.  I saw the movie:  "Nobody's Fool", and enjoyed it.  Three times I tried to get into "Empire Falls", and gave up each time.  IMO, Richard Russo is depressing.  One of the characters I did like, was Sunny Kim.  Yet, why was he even in the book?  I expected Laura to realize Sunny was in love with her, and that she was with him.  That didn't happen, of course.  So what was the point of him being in the story.

For me, the ending was too pat.  Why did  Maurgarite call Harold?  Why did Harold respond to her call?  Makes no sense to me.  Jack calling Joy makes no sense, to me, either.  Why was it suddenly OK for him to initiate a recconciliation?  Too pat, for me.  After a year apart, I can understand they each were ready to end their separation.  But, why?

At this point in my life, I want pleasure from my time reading.  I want to read a book that leaves me enlightened, and happy.  I feel as if I wasted my time with this one.

Sheila

straudetwo

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #131 on: November 14, 2009, 11:50:16 PM »
Thank you for the latest posts.

Sheila's last post is a bit ahead of where we are now. At this point we're still discussing Chapters 5 and 6.  My plan is to go ahead with the systematic review of chapter 7 next, which ends Part One of this book;  then continue  with Part Two.
 
It is customary to  bring out the final thoughts at the end of a discussion - a practice that  has worked well.  The last few days of the discussion will be devoted to your evaluations and the overall conclusions (pro and con) we reach together.  I really believe we cannot yet put our fingers on exactly what the point is.  Can we please  stay with this modus operandi? Thank you.

It's quite possible that the author did spot that oddly-spaced, gothic-lettered sign in a bar somewhere.  But the narrator is preoccupied with his own worries and not overly intent on deciphering it.  He doesn't even recognize Sunny Kim at the bar.  He hasn't thought of him in years.

Laura,  radiant and lovely as Kelsey's maid of honor, apologizes to her parents for Table Seventeen - the 'leftover table', Griffin guesses, correctly. "But you'll know Sunny Kim."  Little Sunny, Joy asks in surprise.

And Griffin has a flashback to Laura's thirteenth birthday party in LA to which Sunny had been invited together with other class mates of Laura's.  A serious, shy boy, he stood apart from the rest of the boisterous group and Griffin hovered about, feeling anxious and sorry for Sunny.  Griffin's  own first junior-high party had been a nightmare. The other kids all knew each other and seemed to have gone to such parties for years.
'Poor kid',  Griffin remembered, he must be suffering just like that.

Interesting facts emerge in chapter 6 : the difference in social standing between Kelsey's parents and the Griffins,  and the "standing apartness", if I can call it that,  of the  Korean Kims.  "They lived on the other side of Shoreham Drive in a modest stucco ranch in a mixed-race neighborhood where single-level houses, wedged tightly together, were cheaper and sported carports rather than garages."  (pg.104) Joy had offered to add Sunny to Laura's carpool, but  Mrs. Kim politely declined.  Sunny was the smartest kid in class but he had no real friends. He had been one of the last to leave the birthday party and, at the end, he solemnly shook Griffin's hand and said, "It was a wonderful party. You have a lovely home."  

Kelsey and Sunny finished high school together and remained friends when they went to college.  Sunny attended Stanford.   But hit was Laura he had a crush on, not Kelsey, who is getting married and has invited him to the wedding. Now he sees Laura again. And she's in love with Andy.    

Tomorrow let's take up Chapter 7, Halfway There, and start on Part Two next week, all right?
Happy Sunday.



 


salan

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #132 on: November 15, 2009, 08:47:03 AM »
Straude-what page starts part two?  I was unable to recheck the book from our library and my notes only have page numbers on them.  I don't want to jump too far ahead.  It's a little hard to divide this book up, isn't it?  I have the same problem as Sheila (about wanting to post my opinions) because I read the book a month before our discussion began.

It was interesting that Griffin was seated at the "left-over" table.  I thought it was symbolic of his whole life.  His parents were always aspiring to be seated at a different table.  Nothing was ever quite "good enough".

Do we start part 2 this coming week, or the following week?
Sally

jane

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #133 on: November 15, 2009, 09:12:23 AM »
Sally...in my hardcover copy from the Library, Chapter 7 starts on p. 108 and runs through 122.

Part Two: Coastal Maine (Second Wedding) begins on p. 125.  (The intervening pages  123/124 are the unnumbered title page and verso for part two).


The Leftover table seems to be those who are not close to either the Bride or the Groom...ie, the Griffins...parents of the MOH and Sunny Kim, a friend of the MOH, and then Marguerite and Harold.  She owns the flower shop in CA, is a friend of Kelsey's parents, now living in Jack and Joy's old house in CA. 

I don't know what Jack expects of Joy(p. 110-111)...or why he doesn't speak up for himself if it "rankles" him that she states their current lives as they are...that he's a college English prof.  Why does that rankle him? It is what he is.  I think maybe Jack wanted the attention that would have been his, for a bit, if Joy had mentioned his screenwriting. Jack does go on and on in his mind about the questions he'd be asked and I guess not having to answer those is what is bugging him.  Although he seems to project it on to Joy, maybe it's the fact that Sid is dead that makes Jack realize his connection to his screen writing days is now severed?

jane


PatH

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #134 on: November 15, 2009, 09:16:30 AM »
Hi, Sally.  My understanding is that we talk about chapter 7 today, then start talking about part two tomorrow.  Is that right, Traude?  Chapter 7 is pages 108-122, and part two starts on page 125.

straudetwo

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #135 on: November 15, 2009, 09:24:52 AM »
Sally,    I'm sorry for this oversight. Of course some of you don't have the book  before you any longer!   My apologies.

Part Two
Coastal Maine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Second Wedding)

begins on page 115 with Chapter 8, Bliss .  The chapters are consecutively numbered.
Somewhat annoyingly (to me), minor though it is:  only the uneven pages are numbered.  





jane

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #136 on: November 15, 2009, 09:35:46 AM »
Traude...In my hardcopy, Part Two: Coastal Maine (Second Wedding) begins on p. 125.  (The intervening pages  123/124 are the unnumbered title page and verso for part two).


Quote
Part Two
Coastal Maine
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(Second Wedding)

begins on page 115 with Chapter 8, Bliss .

P. 115   is still part of my Chapter 7, as I said above in my post on the beginning of Chapter 7.    I suspect my post got missed and Traude, PatH and I were all posting at the same time.

jane

PatH

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #137 on: November 15, 2009, 10:02:19 AM »
    I suspect my post got missed and Traude, PatH and I were all posting at the same time.
jane
Right, Jane.  Your post wasn't there when I started writing, but showed up when I posted.

Evidently, not all books have the same paging.

Am I right that we just spend today on chapter 7, then move on?

Babi

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #138 on: November 15, 2009, 10:41:00 AM »
 You make a good point, SHEILA. I am disturbed remembering how much Sunny Kim loves  Laura and  noticing her fear of hurting Andy but no fear of his hurting her. I’m afraid she is making a mistake. What is Sunny Kim's purpose in this story?

  As to the separation…he would not call her.  ‘He was waiting for Joy to
blink’ and this time she wasn’t going to.  I can well understand she was
exhausted with trying to make up for his chronic unhappiness; that it
was a relief not to have to deal with it any longer.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

straudetwo

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #139 on: November 15, 2009, 05:02:00 PM »
Your posts are much appreciated.  Thank you.  
Forgive me, I had no idea that not all hard covers were printed alike. But that small inconvenience need not deter us  because the line of demarcation is really between Parts One and Two. So let's forge ahead with Chapter 7 and, when we're finished, continue with Bliss., which opens Part Two.

Be prepared for some surprises in In Chapter 7. Here, the reader becomes a virtual guest at Kelsey's wedding - from the perspective of the "leftovers" on Table Seventeen. Eight "asorted" guests are seated there  away from the "action", at the other end of the tent.  "Misfits" Griffin calls them.
The other sixteen tables seat twelve guests each.  
More surprises are in store for Griffin: Right there's the couple he had briefly met at the bar the evening before: Marguerite and her ex-husband, Harold.  There are two British teachers from Norwich in East Anglia, where Kelsey was enrolled at some time, and an elderly man with obvious health problems,  the groom's 6th grade math teacher, it turns out.   A motley crew.

The characterization of the appearance of this poor man, while no doubt accurate, struck me as - well - a little too clinical.  Am I wrong to feel that way?

An aside.  I have traveled back and forth to Europe many times over the years, alone; with and without my late husband; with and without my children when small and when they were adults.  "Leftover" tables are found everywhere, they're usually the least desirable,  close to the kitchen or he rest rooms. But there's no reason  to accept such an "assignment",  not even if there's a language barrier.  In any such case, anywhere and in any language, one should protest on principle.  

Sunny saves the day. He proposes a toast specifically for table seventeen

Here stop and spend a social hour in harmless mirth and fun," he intond, grinning for some reason at Griffin and then Marguerite.
Let friendship reign. Be just and kind and evil speak of none.

"What an odd toast," Joy said. "Do you suppose it's Korean?"
"I don't think so," Griffin answered.  It felt not only familiar but recently so. He could feel the dim memory pooling toward the front of his brain (eloquent phrase, isn't it?). Just then his cell phone vibrated;  the memory gone.

It was mother.   Griffin senses an urgency in her voice,  her concerns the same, where will he scatter the ashes.  On impulse Griffin asks about the Brownings and is astonished  to hear a version very different from his own memory.  His mother continues to refer to Peter as "Steven" and Griffin wonders afterwards whether she is "on track".   He thinks, of course assisted-living facilities were table seventenn for the elderly, where virtual strangers were thrust into proximity by neither affection nor blood nor common interest, only by circumstances and declining health.  No wonder she was going batty. With no one to say otherwise, she seemed to to be revisioning her life so as to please herself.  He didn't object.  Except that she seemed to be revisioning his as well and expecting him to sign off on it.

I agree,  it's sad to imagine.  
One of our long-time f2f book group members lives in such a facility and we have carpooled to her first-floor home several times  for meetings; she no longer drives. She searched long and hard for the "right" place and is quite happy there.  I've driven up by myself to visit her and had meals in three different eateries on site.  I've have also attended dinner and promotional tours.
To me, it's almost like a cocoon.  Self-sufficient, it has everything : grocery store, hair salon,  spa, doctors, pharmacy, hobby room, computerr room, a bank, all kinds of groups, including two or three book groups, large library, activitiess galore, lecures bus trips into Boston, meeting room, movies, you name it.  No reason to leave the buildings in any season. A save haven, sure enough, a colony for the elderly.  My friend tried to convince me to move. I have no such plan.

There's a ray of hope at the end of this chapter - but can the fissure be healed?


PatH

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #140 on: November 15, 2009, 10:36:01 PM »
So in chapter 7 we get Griffin's mother's version of the summer with the summer with the Brownings.  Wow! What a difference!  Who do we believe?  Neither of them is anything like a reliable witness.  Of course they would each see the emotional content differently, but the glaring factual differences?  Where they ate dinner that last night, who taught Griffin to bodysurf, whether or not his mother spent that last night comforting him, whether the Brownings wrote later, etc.--how do we sort that out?

Griffin's mother would "...get just enough details right to make you doubt your own memory, but in the end her stories never tracked."  Griffin's side of the story is told as an explanation of the story he wrote during the writers' strike, so we're not sure how much is what his inner thoughts are telling us now and how much is the re-worked version of the story.

I hope we'll get this sorted out by the end, but I suspect not.

bellamarie

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #141 on: November 15, 2009, 11:10:52 PM »
This chapter was a bit frustrating to say the least.  It was all over the place.  So Sunny Kim gives the toast and reveals what the SMIRT saying meant.  Here stop and spend a social hour in harmless mirth and fun," Let friendship reign. Be just and kind and evil speak of none.  It really didn't have a whole lot of significance to the story did it?  Why did Russo throw this in?  Did he see it in a bar somewhere, liked it, so just added it?  I read he had a habit of doing such a thing.

Okey dokey....So Jack's mother gives us the indication his memory could be as Russo hinted, a bit untrustworthy, and yet so it seems, hers is also.  But I thought it really weird that she would remember how he felt about the Brownings, mention Peter and his sister dying, Peter wrote Jack but he never answered them, they got Christmas cards for a couple of years, then the mother wrote when Peter and his sister died.  And then to top it off this really threw me for a loop,

pg. 167 "Why would you remember all of this, Mom?"  "Why wouldn't I remember things?"  "It's unlike you.  Especially people like the Brownings.  You and Dad looked down your noses at them."  He expected her to deny this accusation, but she didn't, which meant she either hadn't really heard it or preferred not to.  Maddening, the way she blithely shopped among his conversational offerings, as if she were at a fruit bin looking for an unbruised pear.  "Wait till you're my age and memory is all you have."  It was on the tip of his toungue to say that, based on this conversation, he wasn't sure she had even that.  "Happy memories in particular you hold on to."  "Well, it wasn't unhappy.  The wheels hadn't come off yet for your father and me.  He hadn't started the cheating yet."  "Of course he had.  You both had."  "Not really nasty, vindictive stuff.  We were still in love, despite everything."  "That's how you remember it?"  "That's how it was."   pg. 169 "I think she's losing her mind.  She's rewriting history.  Inventing memories."............. Was it possible his mother was right, that Peter Browning had been killed in Viet Nam?  Griffin felt something like a panic rise at the possibility, a physical sensation at the back of his throat.  But really, it was highly unlikely, he told himself.  pg. 170  Was it really possible that she remembered sitting up with him all night in that cottage trying to comfort him?  When had she ever done anything like that?   And they definitely hadn't gon to the Blue Martini that night.  What she was remembering was that that's where she and his father had planned to go before he screwed things up.  But asthma for Peter's sister sounded right, and he supposed she might have died.  But had Peter actually written to him, as his mother claimed?  That was how it went with all her recollections.  She'd get just enough details right to make you doubt your own memory, but in the end her stories never tracked.  They played out like his still-unread student story, the one now with missing pages."

This entire dialogue made me begin to question the validity of Griffin's memories in the prior chapters.  I sense he and his mother have their own memories of how they saw things.  Did Griffin block out parts he didn't want to deal with?

Then after all of this mumble jumble ..............."Oh-oh!  We're half way there!"  "Oh-oh Livin on a prayer!"  Halfway there.  Was this what it came down to, Griffin wondered, his own fist now pumping in the solidarity with those younger than he.  Was this the pebble in his shoe these last long months, the desire to be, once again, just halfway there?  Later, back at the B and B, he and Joy made love.  It had been awhile...

So...........does all of this bring things into perspective?  Is he struggling with aging, his own mortality?  And the love making, why now?   Were he and Joy caught up in the festivities and excitement of the night?  Is the love making a semblance of hope for their marriage?  


pg. 175 "It took Griffin's breath away to think that in the very moment of her great happiness, his daughter had remembered Sunny Kim and come to fetch him into the festivities.  And he felt certain that he'd never in his entire life done anything so fine."

Wow! I just sat and thought about this last sentence and felt sad for Giffin, because he just never sees what is right in front of his face.  He indeed did the same thing for Sunny Kim when he was a teen.

This chapter was loaded with so much and Russo crammed it all into one chapter, yet we are giving one day to discuss it.  I'm not so sure we will be putting it behind us.

But....Halfway there we are, so on to...... Part Two Coastal Maine (Second Wedding)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #142 on: November 16, 2009, 12:03:46 AM »
Traude says, of the groom's 6th grade math teacher: "The characterization of the appearance of this poor man, while no doubt accurate, struck me as - well - a little too clinical".

He's kind of a stock figure, but he raises some interesting points.  Griffin won't get up to dance with his wife until he sees that he isn't leaving Sunny alone.  But he doesn't even think about the teacher.  Of course the teacher wouldn't dance, but although Griffin looks back in concern later to see if the teacher is OK, he doesn't think of even saying something like "I hope you don't mind if we go off to dance".  It's symbolic of how people react to handicaps.  Because someone is less than whole in some aspect, they are treated as not real.  The man has shown he can talk, but no one bothers to figure out where he is intellectually or emotionally.

PatH

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #143 on: November 16, 2009, 12:55:54 AM »
About being at table 17: Traude, you're right that most of the time one should actively resist, but one place where there is no room for negotiation is the prearranged tables of a wedding reception.

Your description of your friend's assisted living facility hits home: "To me, it's almost like a cocoon."  Right on!  That's exactly why I wouldn't want to be there, even though it looks like it has everything I would want.

ginny

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #144 on: November 16, 2009, 08:19:33 AM »
Gee these are good  posts. They are making me appreciate Russo even more, believe it or not. But I think this one got away from him.


Pedln mentioned Chapter 7 is titled Halfway There.  We appear to be on a journey, figuratively and literally.  

"Halfway there. Was this what it came down to, Griffin wondered, his own fist now pumping in solidarity with those younger than he. Was this the pebble in his shoe these last  long months, the desire to be, once again, just halfway there?"

If this is not a mid life crisis I hope never to see one. I wonder what he'd do with that second chance?  He's going to try but this time it won't be the baggage in the trunk that defeats him, it will be himself.


Table 17, wonderful point, Sally.  What did he expect? I still have problems figuring out why he went in the first place, tho you've all explained it.  Reading Joy's explanation did not help me either. Apparently the bride knew where he belonged, even if he did not. Great point PatH on the non speaking to the old teacher, I missed that one.


I loved SMIRT , Bella,  it's so...evocative of what's missing in Jack's life.   Truly to me it's one of the (along with the father in the trunk) more memorable things about the book.

Here stop and spend a social hour in harmless mirth and fun, Let friendship reign. Be just and kind and evil speak of none.
I personally think it's charming and wish I knew the provenance, because it's got to have one, and how it ended up in a bar, (in some interview Russo reveals it IS a saying and names the bar) but.....

But why  would Sunny propose this as a toast at a wedding? To Table 17? (Big wedding).  Isn't it a bit odd for a wedding? Especially when  probably 90 percent of the room would not know what it meant?  He's "grinning" at Jack and Marguerite.  What did you make of that?


Jack's not doing the meaning of the verse, it's everything he lacks.


I find myself wondering, too, Babi and Sheila,   why some of these characters are here in the book, too, like Sunny. What's his significance?  I am looking forward to laughing in Chapter 9.


Joy speaks for Griffin at the table and he found himself thinking how different it would've been if he were  the one giving the synopsis. I find myself wondering how it would have been different. I wish he had been able to give HIS version, what do you think it would be?

 But then all of his reminiscences upon which he's built his whole life are different. Is this why  Russo introduces Mom's different version of "Steven/ Peter" at the beach?    To show us he's not dealing with reality?

Griffin, having heard of  the death of Sid, says, "the last dangling thread neatly snipped. He was now only one thing, a professor of English at a very good liberal arts college, whereas before he'd been two."

So much for the loss of Sid. Like his parents, what it MEANS is something about his own status.

And then he  feels as if Joy's telling of "who they were" makes it seem she outranks him, tho he knows she has not meant it that way at all. Buy why does it matter, as Traude said, in this table of strangers?  

Jane mentioned "I don't know what Jack expects of Joy," I don't,  either,  but it's something validating which he didn't get. He's got nothing within himself, he's what he used to be now and i guess he should get used to it (you can see the fling coming here, right? In the Mid Life Crisis) as he's about to lose even more of his past which seems to be all he's got as a person. But were they correct, and is his entire being built on truth or something else?

It seems one thing he's inherited from his mother is his need to BE something or somebody and those external things that he's relied upon are failing him.  Sid and his screenwriting career just became ancient history. His father's in the trunk, and Mom seems a bit gaga.  Or is she?

"We exchanged addresses before we left, don't you remember? Steven wanted to keep in touch. he wrote you several letters, but you refused to write back. We got Christmas cards for a  couple of years. The mother wrote when the little girl died and then late about Steven. You were gone by then."

"The mother" who like the "little girl" doesn't have a name, sent Christmas cards and "Steven" wanted to keep in touch but Griffin refused to write back?

Why would his mother make up something like that?


 When she's gone will he reinvent himself?

I truly think this is intended as Every man's Journey. I also think it MAY have gotten away from Russo.



Babi

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #145 on: November 16, 2009, 08:51:34 AM »
 That telephone conversation about the Brownings was the first inkling I
had that the 'narrators' memory might not be entirely right. I don't doubt that is how he remembers it.  Frankly, of the two of them, I think Mom would be most likely to alter the facts somewhat. In modern political terms, put a different 'spin' on them.

 Maybe the 'smirt' toast was unnecessary, but I liked it. Bits are often
added to a story simply because they entertain and set a mood. Actually, I find most of the sex scenes popular in modern writing to be wholly unnecessary to the story. They are in there because so many people are entertained by them.

 Since you brought up the question, GINNY, I think the smirt quote was
most appropriate for 'table seventeen'. They were on the edges of the festivities, but they could still enjoy 'a social hour in harmless mirth and fun'.  IMO, Sunny Kim is one of the most likeable people in the book.  His loss of Laura definitely made me sad.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

salan

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #146 on: November 16, 2009, 08:53:36 AM »
I don't think you can believe Jack's mother; but can we believe Jack?  Memories are like stories that get passed around from person to person.  Each individual focuses (and perhaps embellishes) the part of the story that diretly affects them.  Some aspects of the story get buried beccause they are too uncomfortable or they do not affect us directly.
 
Page 119...Griffin suspected that what Joy meant when she said he worried too much was that he had too little faith and sometimes got important things wrong as a result.

Ummm--Could the "leftover" table be symbolic of how Griffin feels about his life?  Neither he, nor his parents felt like they were seated where they belonged.
Sally 

jane

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #147 on: November 16, 2009, 10:09:56 AM »
Lots of great posts and things to think about this morning.

Quote
Who do we believe?  Neither of them is anything like a reliable witness.
I just can't believe a word out of "mother's" mouth. That woman is toxic ...to everyone she comes into contact with, it seems to me...and most of all to her son.  I haven't seen a reason, yet, to doubt Jack's version of what happened during his childhood, so I continue to believe his version of things.


Quote
"To me, it's almost like a cocoon."
Yes...and, having worked at jobs that were very stressful my husband and I love our home being a cocoon. It's a place to be free of stress and demands of the world.  I think I'll soon be at a place in my life, when my husband is gone and/or our health fails, that what has been described is exactly what I want. I'm glad they exist.

Quote
Isn't it a bit odd for a wedding? Especially when  probably 90 percent of the room would not know what it meant?  He's "grinning" at Jack and Marguerite.  What did you make of that?
Yes, probably...but I think Sunny is making a little "inside joke" for the benefit of the "leftovers at table 17!"  Wedding toasts and comments are often about "inside" things of the couple that others know little/nothing about.  This was one for those at table 17. 

Quote
To show us he's not dealing with reality?

Again, I think Jack is dealing with reality as he experienced it.  Yes, all of us have our version of events which involved others, but his version is no less reliable that anyone else's who was there and who is honest about it.  As I've said, his mother's version doesn't count for me.  I'd love to know Peter's version. He, I'd probably trust, too.

Quote
It seems one thing he's inherited from his mother is his need to BE something or somebody and those external things that he's relied upon are failing him.

I'm afraid he has inherited the tendency to live for the future.  Somehow everyone, according to the "parents" everything was going to be better somewhere in the future...once they got those Ivy League Chairmanship offers, the buying of a place on the Cape, escaping the MidF......West, etc.  I've known people who lived in the past...and now we've seen people who live in the future, but don't apparently do what it takes to actually get what they dream about.  For the "parents" that would be what it takes in academia.  Publish the great American novel, do research that makes a mark in the academic world, etc. I don't think "William and Mary" were capable of that...it would be too much work.  I suspect their names reflect academic quality that neither one alone or together had.

I am really enjoying this discussion of this book!

jane





pedln

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #148 on: November 16, 2009, 11:04:09 AM »
Quote
IMO, Sunny Kim is one of the most likeable people in the book.  His loss of Laura definitely made me sad.

I agree with your assessment of Sunny, Babi, but like many here I wonder about WHY he is a character. What’s his purpose?  Perhaps it is to show us what a lovely person Laura is, how compassionate. (And of course, that reflects positively on Jack.)

And Sunny’s background gives us some clues to Jack.  Poor Jack, at Laura’s party, can empathize with Sunny, having endured misery at a party when he was a young teen. Of course he  didn’t know anyone there.  His parents had to move every year and he never had a chance to make friends.

The adult Sunny is blossoming into a very likable man.  A good sense of humor – he enjoyed making that insider toast, and likes to tease a bit when he describes his DC status – lawyer and lobbyist.  And he’s the take charge guy at table 17 – why don’t we all tell a bit about ourselves – and everyone is part of the party. 

I really like the way Russo talks about the characters, even the minor ones. Maybe it’s the way he uses dialog.  We have to make our own judgements from what we hear them say.

bellamarie

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #149 on: November 16, 2009, 12:58:47 PM »
pedln,  
Quote
And Sunny’s background gives us some clues to Jack.

I found myself finally feeling some empathy for Jack after reading how he felt about Sunny Kim as a teen at the party.  It was the first time they brought out Jack's compassion for another person.  It made Jack vulnerable.  I also like how he seemed to approve of Sunny's infatuation for his daughter Laura, and even felt like maybe Laura would reciprocate.

I know some of you have your reasons for not liking the mother, and refuse to give her memories any credence, but I have to tell you that I found her a bit believable here.  Not entirely, but then I don't feel Jack's memories are entirely believable either.  Why would she make up Christmas cards, a letter from Mrs. Browning telling of the death of her son and daughter?  When she mentions she sat up and comforted Jack that night, I tend to believe she did, and very possibly Jack chose not to remember that, choosing to rewrite it his own way.  I know for certan there are memories my Mom and siblings shared with me many years later that I had completely either forgot or blocked out.

No, Ginny, indeed I did not see or feel a mid life crisis, nor did I see the affair with Margaritte coming.  It made absolutely NO SENSE to me what so ever.  When he and Joy made love that night if anything I saw hope for a reconnection between the two of them.  I am a hopeless romantic, and so alll my bets were on the two of them deciding to work on their marriage at that point.

I remember listening to Russo talking about the quote in the bar and how when he travels and finds different little things like that he always uses them in his books.  I think its neat, and I suppose if you really want to you can fit it into the toast from Sunny.  Not so sure I thought much of it though.

As for what Jack was expecting when Joy introduced him, I think like anyone else, you hope to hear that person say some really nice things along with your accomplishments.  I know for me if I were introducing my husband to a group of people for the first time I would pay him the highest regards, because I am so very proud of him.  I was a bit surprised how Joy failed to do that.  It's very easy for us to dislike Jack and point out all his faults, but  I think he is entitled to feel a little sting here. The Sunny at the table was surely far from the shy Sunny described earlier.  Again, a bit too drastic for me to believe.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #150 on: November 16, 2009, 09:37:53 PM »
Marvelous posts. Thank you all. I am late getting to them; I have been preparing for my California daughter's visit next Sunday.  Let me move right along.
 
Obviously we are not yet done with Chapter 7.  Even a deceptively "easy" book  without much of a plot can be demanding, especially when the presumed present -  and the logical progression of the narrative - is repeatedly interrupted by lengthy flashbacks focusing on the past of different characters and interspersed with reflections on the changes in slociety.

No doubt the narrator is extremely self-involved;   so, of course, is the mother.  We can take it for granted  that the memories ofmother and son are subjective regarding the two weeks with the Brownings.

But is it really conceivable that this haughty woman, who made it clear from the outset that they were University professors not ordinary teachers,  would have bothered to exchange Christmas cards with them?

Her rudenessmakes me gag.   Does she ever call her son by name?  I don't think so. She tracks him down on the road with "Where are you?" without even a "hi". Later we learn that she had hectored Joy before  she got ahold of Jack.

Her language is not as polished or  accurate as one would ] expect from a professor of English:  
On pg. 117 she says, in re scattering  the ashes,

"I'd feel better if the Cape was between us ..."

The grammatically correct verb form, I believe,  is  'if the Cape WERE,  between  us;  the subjunctive mood. The narrator also is not consistent with "a couple ... weeks"  Sometimes there IS the necessary "of", but not in all instances. How could this happen to a professional writer? I wonder.
 
PatH, "stock figure" is a very apt term for the stroke victim.  Cou ld there be other  stock  figures?  What about Harold, the consummate heel ?  

Was it Pedln or Babi or both who commented on the "Half-Way There" and the energetic pumping of arms.  (I knew who Bon Jovi is but am not familiar with any of his songs.)

What do the words mean to Griffin?  Half-way where?
He thinks of being "half" because, I believe, he has never fully given up his life in LA, or totally let go.
Mentally he's already on his way, and he relishes it.

Ginny, I don't know in what interview Russo said where he saw the sign.  Bellamarie, you lfurnished several links, could you put  your finger on it?

The narrator had spotted it at the bar of the Old Cape Lounge the evening before Kelsey's wedding. He took in the patrons at the bar, the man and woman   - the woman asking him about the meaning of the sign, and a well-dressed young Asian man who looked vaguely familiar  - Sunny. They all looked at the sign and smiled.

Unexpectedly they found themselves together at table 17; the woman's face lit up immediately. When   Sunny suggested they introduce themselves to break the ice, she announced  ["We  are Marguerite and]Harold". She owned a flower shop in  the San Fernando Valley, lived around the corner from the Apples, and Kelsey called her "Aunt Rita". Invited to the wedding, she had contacted ex-husband ,harold, who lived in Boston ("Quincy", he corrected), and she came  up a few days early. They  had been quite romantic.  
She turned to Harold when she said this, clearly hoping he wouldn't correct her.
"Yeah, well, " said he, "sex was never the problem."

"I bet I know what was," Joy murmured, loud enough for Griffin, on her left, to hear and possibly Sunny, on he right, too, though he gave no sign of it.
  
Do you understand what that might have been ? I don't have a clue. Is it worth worrying about?[/b]

"Right around the corner" was the clue. It didn't take long to find  out that Marguerite had bought the Griffins' house. They had not met because the Griffins moved before the closing.

Joy's turn  is next.  She recounts their present lives and heir jobs, but Griffin is getting annoyed.  Hmmmmm  
Is he jealous of his own wife and her position ? Afraid that  the table mates will think she outranks him?  But doesn't HE  have tenure and she does not?  He chides himself for his thoughts; they are  more befitting his mother. Ah,clearly an inherited trait.

Is it possible this relentless drive for position is a sign of insecurity in both the son and the mother?  
It's an intriguing question.

But are there too many coincidences ? Is what there is of a plot getting muddled?  Over the top?

Was it strictly necessary to make the two Liverpudlian  teachers Lesbian?  "Their accents nearly impenetrable; their spirits extraordinarily high..."

"Animal House", Griffin whispered to Joy, who, no surprise, didn't get the reference. Though she enjoyed movies, even their most iconic moments left no lasting impression on her, and she'd always considered his own abiity to quote such scenes verbatim as rather perverse."
pg. 112

What a singularly callous, unkind remark.
 
As Joy pulled Griffin toward the dance floor, I believe that Griffin, in his own anxious way,  was  concerned about the stroke victim after Laura  rushed over and took Sunny by the arm.  When Griffin next looked over,  table 17 was empty. The Apples had taken Kelsey's old teacher to their side of the tent.

More to come


straudetwo

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #151 on: November 16, 2009, 10:25:34 PM »
As you can see, I'm still behind, though Bellamarie's # 149 IS in fact  the answer to a question I just asked.  Thank you.

Babi,  I agree. An overwhelming sadness in fact.

Pedln and Ginny,  re the sign and the grin.  I haven't been clear enough in my preceding post. Let me try again.
Jack, Marguerite, Harold and Sunny were at the bar the vening before; they saw the sign; Marguerite asked what it meant; Jack wasn't too interested; Sunny overheard; he and Jack exchanged smiles.

But Jack forgot it at once.  He did not recognize Sunny, though Sunny had recognized Jack we learn later.

When Sunny raises the toast,  Jack  doesn't understand why Sunny is grinning at him and at Marguerite. He does have the perception of a recent memory, but it vanishes at once when mother calls.   
In fact,  only after their love-making, when Joy has dropped off to sleep, does Jack finally remember Sunny's "strange toast"  and makes the connection.  He laughs so hard that Joy wakes up but he tells her to get back to sleep. Check the last few paragraphs of Chapter 7.
 
Pedln, excellent thoughts and questions.
Why was Sunny put in this book ? Why indeed.
Are there other stock figures?
What is Russo really after?

We are getting closer, though, I can feel it "in me bones" as the cockneys say.

Sally, indeed, a great deal is symbolic.

More tomorrow.





bellamarie

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #152 on: November 16, 2009, 11:58:49 PM »
Traude,
Quote
But is it really conceivable that this haughty woman, who made it clear from the outset that they were University professors not ordinary teachers,  would have bothered to exchange Christmas cards with them?

pg. 166-167 "We exchanged addresses before we left, don't you remember?  Steven wanted to keep in touch.  He wrote you several letters, but you refused to write back.  We got Christmas cards for a couple of years.  The mother wrote when the little girl died, and then later about Steven."

I agree, I don't think Jack's mother would have sent Christmas cards, that would be beneath her snobby character.  This indicates Mrs. Browning is the one who made the effort to keep in touch.  I totally agree with everyone, that his mother was a despicable person, and I found nothing about her to like, but, in saying this, I do tend to believe her on this.  I think its fair to say we have established neither Jack nor his mother's memories should be completely believed.  I see her calling Peter, Steven is just another way of Russo showing she was so disinterested in the family, she didn't care to even make the effort to know his name or correct herself, when Jack points out it is Peter.

I have to laugh when you mention how she can't say Hi.  I have a sister exactly like this.  It rankles me every time.  lol

I LOVE Bon Jovi, my daughter played "Livin On A Prayer" over and over and over again when she was a teen.  He is still gorgeous!  :-[
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ginny

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #153 on: November 17, 2009, 07:03:23 AM »
Pedln and Ginny,  re the sign and the grin.  I haven't been clear enough in my preceding post. Let me try again.
Jack, Marguerite, Harold and Sunny were at the bar the vening before; they saw the sign; Marguerite asked what it meant; Jack wasn't too interested; Sunny overheard; he and Jack exchanged smiles.

But Jack forgot it at once.  He did not recognize Sunny, though Sunny had recognized Jack we learn later.

When Sunny raises the toast,  Jack  doesn't understand why Sunny is grinning at him and at Marguerite. He does have the perception of a recent memory, but it vanishes at once when mother calls.  
In fact,  only after their love-making, when Joy has dropped off to sleep, does Jack finally remember Sunny's "strange toast"  and makes the connection.  He laughs so hard that Joy wakes up but he tells her to get back to sleep. Check the last few paragraphs of Chapter 7.


Ok I've now read the last few paragraphs of  Chapter 7 again. We've got lesbians, he recognizes the quote...er....so? Sunny did recognize him, why is Sunny grinning at him and Marguerite?  Does Sunny have ESP? Or can he foretell the future? That's his way of gently happily saying I saw you in the bar? I saw you and you did not recognize me?  What? Gosh I'm thick today.

He recognized Jack in the bar, is that it? So at a wedding he makes this toast to that table?

This incident really is bizarre, I'm having trouble understanding Sunny here, can somebody straighten me out?

Unlike some of us here I think people come to a wedding to fete the bride and groom, not give insider toasts that nobody including those toasted have a clue about.

How close was Sunny to Jack in that bar? Did he know Jack did not know what the sign meant? Must not have? Did he hear their conversation?

This scene, to me, is bizarre.

I'll go find the reference in the interview for you Traude.
 Spoke too soon, cannot find it and don't have a lot of time to look . Have found one in CA, but the one I'm thinking of is in New England,  he gave the name and town, too, doggone it why did I not save that? Maybe he's got an email and we can ask that way. Again.

Oh well I did find Smirt, it's an actual word:

Urban Dictionary: Smirt: from http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=smirt

A word used to describe people who flirt while they smoke outside their office buildings or pubs.

a person who looks dorkish ; someone who lacks charisma, funny looking ; strange looking


 Good point on the Subjunctive and the English professor. Maybe she was not good enough for the Mid f'ing west after all, wouldn't that be ironic, tho.

Book is full if irony, too.

What,  in the opinion of those of you who do not see this as a mid life crisis, does a middle aged man's mid life crisis look like?  What are the symptoms?

Babi

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #154 on: November 17, 2009, 09:00:30 AM »
 Ah, I was going to comment on Traude's question about the Christmas cards, but I see Bellamarie has said pretty much what I was going to say. I'm sure the Brownings must have felt sorry for that little boy they met that summer and tried to keep in touch for his sake.
  I think Sunny Jim was smiling at Jack and Marguerite simply because
they had been in the bar and saw that puzzle, too.  Sunny had solved it,
and now was using it as a toast for those at the table, encouraging them
to enjoy the occasion.  As simple as that.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #155 on: November 17, 2009, 09:18:05 AM »
Could be, Babi. I must not go to as many weddings as you all do, have never heard one like that, but Russo was himself (as I reread all these interviews) seated at a table 17, and has just married off two daughters so I guess he's been to more than I have.

What makes you all think they exchanged Christmas cards? That the mother wrote back? She doesn't say that and I don't think she did. "We got Christmas cards from them for a couple of years."

bellamarie

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #156 on: November 17, 2009, 09:30:45 AM »
Ginny if you read my post #152, you will see that the mother did NOT necessarily reciprocate and send Christmas cards back, nor do I get the impression she cared to answer any of the Brownings letters nor did Jack.  Like Babi stated, I too feel Mrs. Browning made the effort because she took a liking to Jack.

Ginny,  
Quote
What,  in the opinion of those of you who do not see this as a mid life crisis, does a middle aged man's mid life crisis look like?  What are the symptoms?

I think the reason I don't see this as a mid life crisis is because I don't see a crisis.  I see a mid life man trying to deal with his legacy as Russo said in his interview.  He stated Jack is like many people who have baggage, and is trying to figure it all out and where it all fits in.  For me, a mid life crisis is when someone acts irrational and destructive, and I don't see Jack's behavior as such.  I see him just the opposite, as Russo said, trying to figure out his life, where he's headed, sorting out all the baggage of his childhood and parents, reevaluating his marriage, career, etc.  Even having the short affair does not seem like a part of a crisis. He and Joy have obviously had some problems they have not dealt with, causing a strained relationship.  Many people turn to someone else for comfort or just attention in situations like this.  I certainly would not see myself having an affair, only to make matters worse, but then Joy had betrayed him with feelings for Tommy long before this affair with Margarette.  The crying in the shower and the crying in the car, Joy was living a lie and keeping her and Tommy's feelings a secret all this time, or so she thought.  Do you suppose Jack sensed it way before she told him the truth?  (One more person in his life has betrayed him)I'm not blaming or excusing either of them for where their marriage is, we know it takes two to make or break a marriage, but do you think its possible once it was out in the open Jack turned to Margarette out of revenge?  I have seen many spouses react just as Jack did here.

pg. 182 "Just this quickly last night's magic, the sense of well-being it had engendered, evaporated."  
So much for my romantic reunion.  lol  

On to chapter 8   Bliss
Jack and Joy discussing Tommy looking for his birth mother and Jack responds, pg 192 "Why, for Christ sake?"  he'd ask him one drunken night, hoping to diminish his friend's need for something that was bound to disappoint him.  "Don't you realize how fortunate you are?"  "Jack," Joy cautioning him.  "No, look at the man." Griffin appealed directly to her here.  "He has no baggage.  He moves about the world a free man.  He possesses large, untapped reserves of the very ignorance that bliss was intended to reward."


Isn't this so true?  Don't we all look at others who we feel has less or no baggage then us, and think how Blissful their life must be?  Only to find, they have as much or even more than us in truth.  This is where Jack begins to really start opening up about his feelings about parents, and what his losses were to him and his expectations of what parents should be to their child.  Obviously feeling, his parents fell short on every level.  

Is ignorance bliss?  I'm not so sure I believe that little addage.  I have been ignorant in many areas of life and now at the age of 57 I am disappointed in not having the knowledge so as to have helped me make different and wiser decisions.  Sure others have told me I am fortunate to have lived in the ignorance of things, but it sure seems at times I would have preferred the knowledge.  Sometimes I wonder if its our parents way of protecting us, yet once we do learn years later, we must deal with the knowing, and we don't have the tenacity to ask our parents the questions, or possibly they are no longer with us to even consider asking.   So we deal with it the best we can.  In others eyes we appear to live in "bliss."

This chapter is revealing so much its hard to take it all in.


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

jane

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #157 on: November 17, 2009, 09:36:19 AM »
I can't image "mother" sending cards to anyone who wasn't at a tenured professor or chair level at any place but one of the Ivy League schools. The Griffins  may have indeed received cards from the Brownings, but I suspect it was a one way street.

And, we don't know that Jack didn't answer Peter. Maybe he did and "dear ol' Ma" didn't know it and Jack hasn't recalled it.  If we're to assume Jack's not recalled other things, then I have to give him that he did write back to Peter once or twice, but that memory has also gotten lost.  

I think the toast by Sunny was not for the entire assembled crowd at the wedding. I think it was for the table 17 group alone.  With the noise and confusion and all of a large wedding reception, nobody at any other table would have necessarily have noticed or cared about Table 17. :)

As Bellamarie has said, I don't see a "crisis" either. I see a 57 yr old man who's alone in a place where he spent his entire childhood summers, apparently, and his honeymoon.  Without someone along to initiate a conversation, etc., he's reminiscing about all his connections to Cape Cod and then the connections those take to other events in his life with Joy.  Maybe I'm the odd one, [which won't be the first time  ;) ] but when I'm driving alone to or near an area/city/location, I often think back over my life in a place where I was many years before and of the people I knew there and things that happened to me there.   I think that's what Jack is doing.

jane

jane

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #158 on: November 17, 2009, 09:45:01 AM »
from bellamarie
Quote
Isn't this so true?  Don't we all look at others who we feel has less or no baggage then us, and think how Blissful their life must be?  Only to find, they have as much or even more than us in truth.

AMEN! 

You've said what I feel, too, very well in your post above about Jack, Joy, their marriage and their problems.

jane

salan

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Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #159 on: November 17, 2009, 12:14:40 PM »
All your posts have been most interesting!  Straude, I feel that Jack's mother's incorrect useage of the verb "was/were" was probably a grammatical error on the part of Russo and/or his proof reader.  I have read many books that have either used words incorrectly, or misspelled them. 
Straude-regarding Joy's comment on Harold and Marguerite, I think Joy was referring to Harold being an insensitive jerk who was totally disrespectful of Marguerite's feelings.  I found him most unlikeable!  Joy understood what the problem with their marriage was because she felt that way about her own.
Jane-I agree with you about the exchange of Christmas cards.  I don't think Jack's mother would send cards to anyone, and she certainly wouldn't remember any cards sent to her by "insignificant" people.
Babi and Jane-I agree with you about the toast.  I think it was an "inside" joke for Jack.  I got the impression that the toast was a private one, just for their table.

Jack's parents were vitriolic and destructive.  This was evident in their personal relationships with people and their 
abuse of the homes they lived him.  Weren't they just awful??

Jack is facing a crisis in his life that has nothing to do with him being in "mid-life".  It's a storm that has been brewing for some time.

Got to go now and do some mundane chores, but I shall ponder this book as I work.
Sally