Author Topic: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online  (Read 41218 times)

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #200 on: November 22, 2009, 10:51:42 PM »
Traude,
Quote
Bellamarie, the vehemence of your repeated criticisms of Mr. Russo astonishes and, frankly, embarrasses me.   After all, we are discussing a book, not the author.

I feel I was giving Russo compliments, no "vehemence" whatsoever, and am puzzled with your post.  I loved that he allowed Joy to finally have a voice, I loved how Laura and Jack had that beautiful father/daughter moment, and I recall in Russo's interview how he, himself mentions his two daughters, their weddings and how he felt.  I loved how Jack showed his emotions to Laura. If anything I felt chapter 9 was showing the "LOVE" the three of them have for one another.  It gave me hope.

I think we have all commented on the author, his life, thoughts, writing style, his interviews, etc.  A writer is open to criticism, and compliments.  I feel I have been fair in both. I think he would be highly honored to have feedback from his readers, good, bad, or indifferent.  Since this is my first time ever reading his work, I would give him a high rating for the emotions he was able to bring out in each of us.  Just because we don't all agree, does not render you to take it personal.  We've picked the author's brain as well as the protaganist's.  It would be remiss of us to discuss a book, without discussing the author.

I hope you have a peaceful night, after your busy sleepover.  I have grandchildren and can appreciate you feeling a bit frazzled after they leave, but oh the fun when they are there!    :)  

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #201 on: November 23, 2009, 08:43:09 AM »
  Bear in mind, that while we get a first-hand look at Jack's thinking as
narrator, we see Joy only through Jack's eyes. Looking at Joy's actions,
rather than just Jack's opinion of them, one can see posible alternate
interpretations. It's hard to know the truth of a person when one sees
them only at second-hand. We don't really know what Joy 'should have done' and didn't.
  I think, BELLE, that sometimes all one can do is offer. I have seen
clearly that pushing one's 'help' on someone who doesn't want it can simply drive them away. A teen-ager is a perfect example. One can only do so much, go so far, then one must simply step back and let them learn the hard way.
 Generally speaking, the knots in a personality acquired during childhood
may require more professional help than even a loving partner can offer.

PATH. 
Quote
"This is characteristic of him.  He's always waiting for her to make the gesture first, to give in."
  Exactly, PAT. You nailed that one.

TRAUDE, too.
Quote
"Who, I wonder, is more concerned about Joy,  Tommy or Griffin?" 
Tommy, obviously. Griffin is too needy; his own happiness has
always come before Joy's, judging from the pattern of their marriage
from the beginning. I truly believe he is unaware of this, and sees his
actions, with some justification, as a wonderful improvement over his
parents'.

"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

salan

  • Posts: 1093
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #202 on: November 23, 2009, 08:57:59 AM »
Belle--I am wondering why you are so "down" on Joy and have sympathy for Jack, and very little empathy for Joy and Tommy.    I don't have my book to refer back to, but I don't remember Joy and Tommy ever physically acting on their love.  They did not betray Jack in that sense, and Tommy was always trying to get Griffin to express his feelings to Joy.  It seems to me like Tommy was a friend to both of them.  He couldn't help loving Joy and wanted her to be happy in her marriage.  He cared about Jack, too.  Why wouldn't Joy love Tommy?  He was very supportive of her.  I find it surprising that you find Tommy a "cad".  Jack was shutting Laura out of his life, by not sharing with her.  I certainly don't think Jack was trying to shelter Joy from anything.  He was simply playing his same old mind games.  Tommy was trying to get him to open up more.  If Tommy was actively trying to break up their marriage, Jack would not have remained friends with him, and Tommy certainly would have made his move on Joy when she and Jack separated.  However, that's just my opinion.  My goodness, why ever would Griffin want to keep his mother's death from Joy?  Naturally Tommy would feel that she should know.
 
Alf, I also assumed that Tommy did not attend the wedding by choice.

Belonging to an on-line reading group has the disadvantage of not being able to hear the tone of voices or see the expressions on faces, and being able to immediately dispell any misinterpretations of statements.  
What approximate pages are we up to now??
Sally

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #203 on: November 23, 2009, 09:34:03 AM »
 Well, said, SALLY.  Tommy was indeed a true friend to both Jack and Joy. I never saw anything in his behavior for him to be ashamed of, or
Joy either.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10952
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #204 on: November 23, 2009, 10:07:28 AM »
Sally, chapter 9 in my book is pages 165-206, and ends With Jared knocking Griffin unconscious.  I agree with whoever complained about only the right hand pages being numbered.  Every single page should be numbered on the outside corner, no artsy stuff.

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #205 on: November 23, 2009, 10:33:50 AM »
Ladies, I suppose we are going to have to agree to disagree with how we see Joy, Jack and Tommy's relationship.  I'm okay with that.  I truly respect each person's individual feelings.  Afterall, we bring to the discussion what he know, experience, and personally feel. 

Babi,
Quote
I truly believe he is unaware of this, and sees his actions, with some justification, as a wonderful improvement over his parents'.

I sincerely believe Jack thought he was protecting Joy from the anguish of having to deal with his dysfunctional parents.  Right or wrong for him doing it, it is what he expressed many times in the book as his motives for NOT including her.

Babi, Yes, I agree, sometimes, all we can do is offer.  I totally agree with you about the fact, sometimes you have to step back and let them learn the hard way. I have done this with all three of my children as they went through their teen years, maturing into adults.  Amen they found their way, after a few lumps.  lol Jack could have spared himself so much if only he could have reached out, allowed himself to be loved.  What a sad, complicated life this character was given. 

But to lighten things up.....there are plenty of laughs to share in chapter 9.  Joy's family has turned into the National Lampoons!!!!   ;D

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

jane

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 13089
  • Registrar for SL's Latin ..... living in NE Iowa
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #206 on: November 23, 2009, 11:39:31 AM »
Great posts to read this morning...and I guess I agree with all of you.  
from Bellamarie
Quote
I sincerely believe Jack thought he was protecting Joy from the anguish of having to deal with his dysfunctional parents
Yep, I think Jack was trying to distance himself and his wife and daughter from his toxic parents. I think Joy was dealing with Jack's "distance" from his own happiness as best she could.


As Babi said:
Quote
Bear in mind, that while we get a first-hand look at Jack's thinking as
narrator, we see Joy only through Jack's eyes. Looking at Joy's actions,
rather than just Jack's opinion of them, one can see posible alternate
interpretations. It's hard to know the truth of a person when one sees
them only at second-hand.

We only see Joy through Jack's eyes. She has no voice here...only an incomplete echo as filtered through Jack's head...and his excuses/justifications.

from Babi and Sally: Babi  
  
Quote
Tommy was indeed a true friend to both Jack and Joy. I never saw anything in his behavior for him to be ashamed of, or
Joy either.

I think Tommy was trying to get Jack to see what he had...the love of Joy...and to appreciate it.  There might have been more...had Joy responded to Tommy, but I don't believe she did.

No, I can't imagine bringing a guest of the opposite gender to my daughter's wedding while being separated (not divorced) from my spouse.  What was he thinking?  Is he still so emotionally distant...or is he so emotionally needy that he can't face his wife and daughter without some feeble backup?

Nope, I didn't begin to guess the identity of the guest.  

Jack, in my opinion, continues to be an example of what can help to a bright, potentially lovable person, when that person has been denied love, nurturing and  emotional stability as a child.

jane

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #207 on: November 23, 2009, 12:04:57 PM »
Jane, 
Quote
Jack, in my opinion, continues to be an example of what can help to a bright, potentially lovable person, when that person has been denied love, nurturing and  emotional stability as a child.

Oh I couldn't have said it any better, and couldn't agree with you more Jane.  I guess that's why as frustrated as I feel with Jack, I also have such a compassion for him.  Maybe I have been more tough on Joy, because I saw her coming from a more stable, healthy family.  Although chapter 9's fiascos make me pause.....Just kidding.

Jack and Margarette is so silly, I totally shook my head and kept turning the pages. Why not throw in adultery, a fling, a ridiculous affair or what ever you would call it, at this point.  And no less, bring her to the wedding.  Yet, he holds Joy's hand walking.  Oh Mama Mia!   lololol
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

jane

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 13089
  • Registrar for SL's Latin ..... living in NE Iowa
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #208 on: November 23, 2009, 02:21:19 PM »
Correction needed for my sloppy proofreading:

my own comment:

Quote
Jack, in my opinion, continues to be an example of what can help happen to a bright, potentially



Marguerite doesn't work for me either...UNLESS it's the only woman in LA Jack has met...and that was the year before at Table 17... hmmmm.... 

jane

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #209 on: November 23, 2009, 08:21:07 PM »
Agreed Jane, Marguerite doesn't work, nor does her EX.  Neither did the guy who used to BARK at Laura.
  Why, I ask were they even placed as characters in this book?
 The three of them stand out like sore thumbs, not belonging anywhere. That's my complaint with Russo.  WHY???
I'm sorry that I don't have my book with me out here because I can not remember the proper names of these improper folks.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #210 on: November 23, 2009, 10:23:57 PM »
It was at the bar Jack first met Marguerite, she tried to get Jack to engage with her to figure out the "smirt" saying.  Then, ironically, Marguerite is at Kelsey's wedding, sitting at the same table #17, as Joy, Jack and Sunny, and low and behold....we learn she is living in Jack and Joy's house they sold. It is mentioned Jack and Joy had moved before meeting the couple who bought their house. Now alas, Jack and Marguerite are together at Laura's wedding. It just was not believable for me, that is why I thought it silly. Too many coincidences to bring these two together for no real apparent reason, but a short little tryst. Russo did say this book was satirical humor, although I don't see any humor here, because its hurtful for Joy.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #211 on: November 23, 2009, 10:53:54 PM »
Many thanks for your posts.

Babi,  how true.  I'm in total agreement. What counts are actions.  
Here are some of Joy's actions, revealed in Chapter 9.
*  it was Joy who had talked her angry siblings out of boycotting Harve's and Dot's wedding. (Isn't that a hiarious name for her?)
*Joy  calmed the family members when they went ballistic over at the news of her and Griffin's separation.
*  Joy was the constant conciliatory influence in their arriage all along.  
Griffin  was not there for her when she was pregnant.  All he could think of were his mother's words "Now she's got her way".  

*In January of the year when Griffin's mother was in hospice care, Joy had offered to come to see her. Typically,   Griffin had not accept the offer even though he desperately wanted to. That is  perverse, I believe.

AND it invites a comparison with what happend on the last evening during the "Summer of the Brownings". Even though he  12-year old Jack wanted nothing more than to have dinner with the Brownings,  he invented the lie of dinner with his parents, both seriously  discomfited as a result. A  deliberate,  even perverse  fabrication.  I do not believe this is 'part of the 'adolescent growing up process', but rather that it is  a trait. We see it in this story time and again.

Sally,   you've perfectly expressed my take on Tommy and Griffin; I see no need to repeat a single word.  My apologies for not getting back earlier to your question of where we are at this point.
We are still talking about Chapter 9,  titled Rehearsal,  It is a particularly complex chapter with multiple flashbacks. It begins with Griffin's drive to Maine for his daughter's wedding and ends  with the almost slapstick events after the reception.
Though pages may differ in printings, I believe, and would certainly hope !, the content of the chapters is the same.

I've been sitting here  for some time summarizing what  all transpires in  this  complex and, rereading it, realize it is too long. So I'm editing as I go over it.

The first paragraph of Chapter 9 is a lyrical ode to Maine. where Griffin is headed for Laura's wedding.
Soon there's  a flashback   informing the reader of the separation,  Griffin's move to L.A.,  and the failure of the cable TV movie venture.

Flashback within flashback[/color]:  Call from 'buddy" Gladys informing Griffin of his mother's  hospitalization.  Flight to Indiana; awkward parting  curbside between him and Tommy.

[Contemporary story line: Griffin's arrival at the Hedges resort;  talk with Joy;  her expressed wish for a civilized party;  her gentle offer to help with the bill for Laura's wedding if needed. She knows that his assignments  have been few and far between since he and Tommy were fired.  

Flashback:  mention of Griffin's trips from L.A. to Indiana; major transitions between  mother's hospital; rehab; return home with hospice volunteers;  finally to the hospice wing of the hospitalwith full nursing.

Flashback:  :Sources of income, poor: in January a couple of film-school classes, adjunct status; a quickie dialogue rewrite.  On his own.  Since Griffin moved out of Tommy's apartment, little contact.   Occasional drinks, always an early night.

From the book,   "Griffin knew his old friend was at a loss to understand why Griffin didn't just tuck his tail between his legs and go home and beg Joy's forgiveness, as husbands do in his circumstances, if they had any brains.
'You want to end up alone?' he asked one night. 'Is that it?'   No. But Griffin was hard-pressed to articulate what it was, exactly.

[/i]
Contemporary story line.
"I don't want any embarrassment for Laura," Joy was saying.
And there was Laura.  "Daddy", his daughter said, choking on the word, and Griffin was incapable of the slightest utterance." [/i]
Next father-daughter walked through the dense maze of the Hedges resort. Laura is understandably  emotional,  and  says at one point that she's thought a lot of Grandma lately.  Why, Griffin asks.
"Seeing her there last December," Laura answers, "all the tubes and the oxygen. She looked so tiny and wasted away."

Flashback on a particularly bad day for  his mother, Griffin found a woman sitting at her narrow bedside her back to the door. She'd never had visitors other than him.  
"Joy, he thought, and felt some ice dam in his heart break apart at the possibiity."
It was Laura. She had only one hour, and his mother said she wanted to be alone with her.

Flashback within a flashback.  His mother's brief visit when Laura was a few months old and spit up in her.
Her interest  -- until it came time for Laura to choose a college.  When mother planned the Grand American Colege Tour. And Griffin exploded.  
"  You have to apologize", Joy said. He did not.

Contemporary. .Laura tells Griffin what she and his mother talked about.
Return to the festivities.

Everyone  seemed to be at their best behavior. At first. Greeting Harve and Dot.   A menacing greeting of Jason, or is it Jared?  (One of them had threatened  Griffin with bodily harm months before.)  
And, Joy has brought a guest (!) .  Brian Fynch, dean of admissions at the college.
Griffin is instantly jealous, suspicious, paranoid, a reader might think.   Dubs him Ringo, thinks the man is a putz.  

Some guests linger, adults and children, and engage in a volleyball game. There's a budding 7-year old bully;  Harve is momentarily unattended, drives off the handicap ramp, loses control and ends up in the yew hedge.  Griffin tries to come to his aid and is punched out by Jared or Jason.
No retelling could do justice to the story and the way it is told.  

There are two more chapters left: Chapter 10, Pistolary, and Chapter 11, Plumb Some -   54 pages,  and  a lot more pertinent information.  I'll review  and discus them last with you, and there will be time for you to add   your own reflections.

Many thanks to all of you and your valuable, wonderful posts. It's too late for further comments  posts, but tomorrow is another day!

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #212 on: November 24, 2009, 12:34:23 AM »
I was just re reading the part about BrianFynch, (Joy's date for the wedding, dean of admissions and Joy's boss.)  After Joy has introduced 'Jack' to Brian, he thinks, He didn't realize he'd been half hoing she'd introduce him as her husband (which he still was, after all) until she didn't.

I am cracking up with Jack's conversation he begins having with his deceased mother.  He has nicknamed Brian Fynch "Ringo, because of his haircut early Beatles.  lol.  Sure sign of jealousy.  

Joy had introduced, him as her "friend."  pg. 270  At any rate, he and this 'friend' are chatting amiably for the last ten minutes. Ringo claimed they'd actually been introduced last spring ("No reason for you to remember") when he came on board.  Came on board? his mother snorted.   What is he a pirate?   Ringo goes on to say His "team" in admissions was firt-rate, though its star, "just between us," was Joy. (Oh, you smarmy bastard, both son and mother concluded in the same instant.)  lolol  This guy is really getting to Jack.  lolol

pg. 272 Griffin smiled, now certain that he (and his mother) were right about Ringo's character.  The implied omniscience, the overfamiliarity, the flattery....what a putz.  He thought of the elderly woman he'd spoken to in Truro this time last year who'd been looking for the right occasion to use fart-hammer. Well, here it was.

Oh my gosh this was cracking me up.  It's obvious Jack is jealous of Fynch and so he nicknames him, and enlists his mother's voice to support him.  lolol

Fart-hammer.....that is just too funny. ;D  ;D

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #213 on: November 24, 2009, 08:33:53 AM »
 Some things about Mother Griffin's hospice time really struck me.
  Like the 'morphine narrative'.   “The most compelling thing about the Morphine Narrative was his Mother’s need to tell it.” 
    Why, do you think?  Was it true?  Was it a need to defend her life? To get said all the things she didn’t say at the time,  all the  ‘I should have said’s’?    Actually, I can understand that possibility.  All the times I kept my mouth shut to keep the peace, or to spare someone’s feelings at the expense of my own.  Not that I think that was Mother Griffin’s problem.

 A harsh comment, but with some truth in it.  Mother Griffin: “How does having you sit  there day after day make me any less alone?”    The two of them have so little to share, so little in common.  There is no sense of companionship.

  Off that subject, there is the ‘monster’ kid.  Don’t you just long to pick them up and warm their britches for them?  I often want to tell such a wimp of a parent, 'Hey, do you want to teach your kid that actions have consequences, or do you want to wait for a policeman and a judge to do it?'
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #214 on: November 24, 2009, 09:04:29 AM »
Babi,
Quote
Don’t you just long to pick them up and warm their britches for them?I often want to tell such a wimp of a parent, 'Hey, do you want to teach your kid that actions have consequences, or do you want to wait for a policeman and a judge to do it?'

I so agree with you.  Before I began my day care business, I was in a private elementary school, K - 8 for fifteen years.  Oh how the times changed.  Dealing with parents today is a real trip.  I have to bite my tongue so many times as I stand and watch a parent try reasoning, when a good stern voice, or a tap on the bottom would suffice. I want to say, Who is the adult?  The other day, I stood and watched out my front door while Grandma was attempting to get the 3 yr old to listen to her to come into my house.  She stood stationary, using the voice of reason, "Adam, don't go by the street, Adam come on we have to go in the house, Adam, no, don't go by the street."  Well, needless to say, Adam is now stepping into the street.  I opened my door, ran to him, with a very stern voice and said, "Adam, stop!"  He stopped in his tracks, I walked to him and took his hand and walked him into my house.  The Grandmother just stood in one spot this entire time, and looked at me and said, "He just doesn't listen to me."  grrrrr 

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #215 on: November 24, 2009, 11:59:48 AM »
Babi-
Quote
A harsh comment, but with some truth in it.  Mother Griffin: “How does having you sit  there day after day make me any less alone?”    The two of them have so little to share, so little in common.  There is no sense of companionship.

Babi, there is a great deal of truth in that statement.  I have long believed that people die the same way that they lived.  
Mother Griffin (and I use that term loosely Jane) distanced herself from her son and husband their entire lives.  Why should it be any different in death? I would think that the Morphine would make her a bit more sensitive and introspective, but why would she?
You can't change the spots on the leopard!
It took me many years to feel sympathy or understanding for my mother and that only happened in the last few days of her dying.  She didn't speak but I did.  It was cathartic.  I was waiting for Jack to speak up and vent his confusion.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #216 on: November 24, 2009, 07:07:36 PM »
Babi,
Quote
  Why, do you think?  Was it true?  Was it a need to defend her life? To get said all the things she didn’t say at the time,  all the  ‘I should have said’s’?

Jack's mother was intent on leaving Jack with the final picture of her and his father being together in the end.  I got a sense that she was convincing herself, even more so, than him.  She says they made love, and it was more intense, because they were sneaking around from Claudia.  I think being an egocentric person, she had to see her husband needing, desiring and wanting her.  pg. 288 "He'd be here," she assured him, smiling, "if he wasn't dead."  Unlike so many of her smiles, this one was neither sly nor lewd.  Beatific(making happy, finding pleasure) was more like it.  And for that reason he said, "I know Mom. I know."

At this point, I feel Jack has to give her the peace and pleasure, regardless of all her faults and flaws.  He needs to give her this peace, not only for her sake, but even more so, for his.  IMO, I think Joy, if she were there, would have encouraged him to do this, she and Laura would be proud of him for this.  Sometimes, forgiveness, is more for you, than the one who has hurt you. 


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #217 on: November 24, 2009, 09:17:38 PM »
Babi, good point : mother's  morphine-induced confessions.  
Alf,  a professional,  confirmed that such revelations are not unusual (not to put words in her mouth :))  

Are the mother's real in this case? ?  We don't know.  As to why, in mother's case, we can only guess.  For reasons unknown she may have wanted to set the record straight,   or was she just boasting? At first Griffin did  not believe  any of it.
On what in my book is page 196 in Chapter 9 we read,

"As Christmas bore down on them, exhaustion, fueled by sleepless nights and cafeteria food, began to take its toll, and Griffin felt his tenuous grip on reality begin to fray, as if he, too, were being dosed with morphine. ..."

He had been in a state of impermanence since the separation from Joy, his earnings unpredictable  after the failed cable TV movie deal collapsed,   his mother's illness and decline.
 \
How rational was he?
What can we make of the caustic remarks coming from his dead mother's ashes?

Consider what preceded Jared's (or was it Jason's?) punch a the end of the dinner -  
Griffin looked at the twin and his mother said "Would you look at these two morons?".
 
Could he himself have uttered the words,  inciting, provoking the punch?
What was Griffin's state of mind?

Another point:  In the pre-dinner talk Joy tells Jack,
"And you know about the ceremony, right? That there's a minister?  Nothing in your face, but God will be invoked."
"Which?" (he asked).


And his mother's voice says  "The Protestant one. The god of gated communities and domino theories. Jesus. With J, like the rest of them."

How much contempt is expressed in those words -  whoever spoke them!
Is Griffin is an atheist ?  Not that it is important in the context of our discussion.

From all we've read so far, Griffin is a cynic, deep down an angry man,  punctilious, forever dissatisfied,  jealous,   and possessive -- a proverbial misanthropist.

More as soon as I can.


bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #218 on: November 25, 2009, 01:45:08 AM »
Traude,
Quote
How rational was he? What was Griffin's state of mind?
Another point:  In the pre-dinner talk Joy tells Jack,"And you know about the ceremony, right? That there's a minister?  Nothing in your face, but God will be invoked."
"Which?" (he asked).  And his mother's voice says  "The Protestant one. The god of gated communities and domino theories. Jesus. With J, like the rest of them."

I saw all of the above as the humor, Russo said the book was about.  The Jesus with a "J" fallling in line with all the "J" names in Joy's family was perfect!   lolol  I never once questioned his frame of mind, or religious beliefs, because all hell has broken loose.  It's a slapstick comedy from beginning to end.  I was laughing out loud throughout this.  Can you imagine sitting in a movie theater watching all of this happen?  I can't wait to see if they do make a movie of it.  People will be rolling in the aisles.  Those twins had me cracking up.  I would have preferred Jack nicknaming them, Dumb and Dumber, rather than morons.  LOLOL

Traude,
Quote
From all we've read so far, Griffin is a cynic, deep down an angry man,  punctilious, forever dissatisfied,  jealous,   and possessive -- a proverbial misanthropist.

I haven't seen anger in Jack, if anything I think under the circumstances, he has shown the patience of a mule, especially with his nutty mother.  Cynic, (yes,) punctilious (precise) I suppose, forever dissatisfied, (yes,) jealous, (I saw Tommy the jealous character) but then Ringo does bring out the jealousy in Jack. Possessive, I don't see unless not wanting to share Joy with her family, and proverbial misanthropist, yes, he does have a general distrust of people.

But with all the negative qualities you have pointed out, I have to say I also see Jack's positive qualities. He's a loyal son, a loving husband and father, a sought after Professor, hard worker, a loyal friend, and is sensitive to others around him such as Margareitte, Sunny and Harve.

Hmmmm...almost sounds like any normal person, with a dysfunctional upbringing.  lol  I'm way past my bedtime.  I'm surprised I have not bumped into Gumtree, our night fairy on the other side of the globe.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #219 on: November 25, 2009, 09:56:17 AM »
  I'm with you, BELLE. 'grrrr!'  I agree with this, also: At this point,
I feel Jack has to give her the peace and pleasure, regardless of all
her faults and flaws. When someone is dying, you have to let go of your
quarrels and losses, for your own sake as well as theirs.

 TRAUDE, Griffin's (Russo’s?) cynicism is plain here.  “..dreams embodied a paradox, that they, like love itself, were at once real and chimerical.”    It’s like his ‘revelation’ that Joy’s mother Jill also had an affair.  He seems  resolved that every marriage must have an unfaithful partner, possibly two.  Jill seemed to me a person most unlikely to have an affair, though I admit Harve  would be hard to live with.  I can't help thinkin that some of Russo's views are showing here.
  You are right; Jack does have a number of good qualities.  I'll have to
shift focus and look at those.  :)
 





"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

jane

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 13089
  • Registrar for SL's Latin ..... living in NE Iowa
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #220 on: November 25, 2009, 10:37:47 AM »
Just going "off topic" here to wish everyone here a most happy and blessed Thanksgiving.  I'm looking forward to getting back to the discussion on Friday.



A Happy and Blessed Thanksgiving to ALL

jane

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #221 on: November 25, 2009, 03:54:56 PM »
Thank you, Jane, and may you and everyone have a fun filled day.  Unlike Jack and Joy, my entire family shares the holiday, half with us and the other half with the in laws.  Except this year my daughter and her hubby can not make it up from Florida due to his job.  But we share the day with phone conversation and spiritual togetherness.  Thanks be to God!

Gobble, gobble, gobble, have a Happy Turkey feast day!  And don't forget the pumpkin pie!!!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #222 on: November 25, 2009, 06:50:35 PM »
Time out for the Holiday :)

                             HAVE A WONDERFUL THANKSGIVING, EVERYONE

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #223 on: November 27, 2009, 10:50:32 PM »
Thanksgiving is behind us and I hope you had as a wonderful a time as I did.  It was special for me because my daughter lives out of state and cannot join us every year. Each time it is an incredible joy to see her, but saying goodbye is not getting any easier.  

If you're ready,  let's pick up where we left off.  We have three days left, and we know the ending. But it's worth to review some of the new 'revelations'.

General confusion reigned after the collapse of the handicap ramp.  Harve landed in the yew hedge, supported by a branch,  the wheelchair on top of him.  Efforts by the twins to shake him loose failed because "The hedge was far too thick ... and its branches seemed naturally designed to funnel human victims straight down into its dark, dense center."  
(Marvelous phrasing, this,  I think, on the first page of Chapter 10.)

At first nobody noticed Griffin lying unconscious under the hedge, only his feet sticking out.  Later,
despite his protestations that he was "fine", Laura and Andy took him to the small regional hospital. The walking wounded arrived in waves.  Joy waited  until her father was extricated from the hedge; she rode  in the ambulance with him.  She needed assistance herself.

Griffin found her in an examination room and wondered why she was wearing a hospital gown for a broken finger.  Because, Joy said,  she needed stitches for a deep gash under the breast.   Joy told him that "Ringo" had fainted dead away on looking at her grotesquely bent finger.  

Then Joy told Griffin about the "pistolary" found after Jill's death.  Her father had been loathe to throw anything of hers away, which annoyed Dot. She helped him look through some things, and there was a bundle of lover letters.  Joy's sister June saved the day. She told her father that Jill had been writing a romance novel.  Harve cried. Deep down he did not believe it.

But no matter how much we can rue something said or done only to regret it the moment it is out of our mouth,  some things cannot be retracted.  Even a small cut leaves a scar.  

There's no resolution either way between Joy and Griffin. But he wedding will take place the next day.

Griffin returns to the B & B where the guest he has brought is waiting for him:Marguerite.

 

salan

  • Posts: 1093
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #224 on: November 28, 2009, 07:20:46 AM »
Straude, Thank you for being our "leader".  You managed to keep us on track when we got too hung up on one aspect or another.  I appreciate your time and effort on this project.

Griffin's thought, "The only things that were supposed to happen were things you made happen.  He saw now that it was all he was going to get, probably because it was all he deserved" ... a self-fulfilling prophecy perhaps??

I think this book was well-written, but I did not enjoy it.  Griffin exhausted me with all his whinings, his negativism, and his game playing.  He was miserable because he stubbornly refused to let go of past wrongs. 

I found this book really depressing.  Some peope thought it was a dark comedy.  Although I found parts of it to be humorous; on the whole it was pitifully sad and frustrating.

On that note, I am really looking forward to some Christmas "fluff" books.  I need some light hearted humor!!
Sally

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #225 on: November 28, 2009, 10:39:54 AM »
Sally,   thank you for posting.  I totally agree with you.  The last chapter still needs to be reviewed, and I promise to be back this evening. Iwill be back this evening.

Thank  you again.

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #226 on: November 28, 2009, 11:13:46 AM »
  I have to agree with SALLY.  I probably would not have read this book
if it were not under discussion.  The humor was there, but even that
tended to be depressing.  In a nutshell, who and what we are forms our
lives.

Ah, Marguerite. Just when we thought Mother Griffin was the worst ever, we learn about Marguerite's mother. Her father committed suicide, and her mother says to the little girl Marguerite, “There. Happy now?”   It’s hard to imagine a mother that cruel.

Does this resonate with you? “Late middle age, he was coming to understand, was a time of life when everything was predictable and yet somehow you failed to see any of it coming.”
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #227 on: November 28, 2009, 01:33:31 PM »
I agree totally!  If it were not for Traude leading this discussion I would not have joined in.  I have never been a Russo fan and after this novel, I doubt that I will ever read another of his stories.
Traude, you are a wonderful facillitator and I commend you for sticking with it and us!
I remember leading a discussion one time and I absolutely hated the story; sticking with it was not easy, so again, I tip my hat to you and your readers.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

straudetwo

  • Posts: 1597
  • Massachusetts
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #228 on: November 28, 2009, 08:11:32 PM »
Babi, Andy, and Sally again, your comments are much appreciated.
Of course I concur with your findings and reservations; I have some of my own.  But I'd like to first finish the review of Chapter 11 and hope you'll indulge me.

Chapter 11 brings the story and us full circle,  just look at the title: Plumb Some  :D!
The term was a lesson Griffin learned at a  summer job while in HS, about the variable degree of balance required to even things out,  That degree is measurable with a plumb.  However balance is not always perfect, and  plumb some will hold well enough.  (Meaning that mending something is better than tearing it apart?)

The relationship between Marguerite and Griffin probably started when he returned to L.A.  She provided him with the emotional support he needed during his mother's illness.  The name chosen for this character is perfect.  The flower of that name evokes sun, summer, happiness, contentment.
And  that is  exactly what Marguerite  gave Griffin,  plus finding the perfect  individual watery resting places for his mother and father.  A long-delayed duty finally carried out.  His own future less clear to him.

Marguerite  realized much sooner that Griffin would never be able to say "I love you"  to her because he still hankered for Joy,  and that there would be no permanent relationship for them. So she took matters into her own hands.  

Babi,  oh yes.   The sentence  you quoted is so very true.  (It reminds me of a tile I brought home from Holland one year, which says "Too soon old, too late smart".  Sad but true.

 








jane

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 13089
  • Registrar for SL's Latin ..... living in NE Iowa
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #229 on: November 28, 2009, 08:47:40 PM »
 To me plumb some  meant that situations, lives, people, circumstances, etc.  don't have to be perfect  to work just fine.  People can have flaws and still find joy and happiness, if they seek it/wish it.  I'm a believer that people make their own happiness/joy. I don't think other people can make others happy; it's what you do yourself for yourself.

jane

bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #230 on: November 29, 2009, 02:08:40 AM »
After having three days off, a wonderful holiday, my Christmas tree and decorations up, I hardly can bring myself to go back to this book.  It's pretty clear from the beginning most of us did not like this book.  It was just too depressing in the first three chapters, and it stayed there throughout.  I commend all of you, who did stick with the discussion, and yes, Traude, I know how difficult it must have been for you.  We were about as negative as Griffin was most of the time.  My apologies if it made your job tougher.  But, I must say I came away in the end, learning from this book and from each post. That I would say is a successful discussion.  

I do want to say I loved the fact Joy admitted to Griffin she was wrong in not trying to allow herself to be a part of his phone calls with his mother and the entire relationship.  This was a bone I seemed to knaw and did not want to let go of, (Joy's responsibility to her marriage.) I am glad Russo did not leave it unresolved.  pg. 318 "I never should've let you do that alone.  I told myself it was the way you wanted it, that it was just you going back into that room of yours, the ones where I've never been allowed, and closing the door behind you.  I told myself I'd come if you asked, but not until.  That, was wrong.  And, just so you know, you aren't the only one your daughter's mad at."  "I'll speak to her."  "There's no need.  She loves us both.  I think she tried not to for a while, but it didn't work."  "She's her mother's daughter."  

Joy and Griffin seemed to have an epiphany in ch. 10.  pg. 320   "Again it occured to him how different Maine was from the Cape.  What would'v happened if he and Joy had honeymooned here, as she'd wanted to, instead of Truro?  Would they have drawn up a different accord?

Russo is tying up all the loose ends in ch. 10.

pg.371 Jack on the phone to Joy, And here's the really weird part," he said, unsure whether he was just talking to keep her on the line or, in some roundabout fashion, finally for a while before that, I've been wondering ...."  He stopped here, unsure how to continue, though what he'd been wondering couldn't have been simpler.  "I've been wondering if maybe I loved them.  It's crazy, I know, but...do you think that's possible?"  "Oh, Jack,"  Joy said, as if she would've liked to ask where in the world he'd done his graduate work.  "Of course you did.  What do you think I've been trying to tell you?"

"Is there anything left, Joy, or did I kill it all?"  "You came close,"  she finally admitted, sniffling.  "But no.  You killed only the part that could be killed."


Jack has finally come to terms with his parents, his relationship with them, and can now lay them to rest.

pg. 373 I think maybe I'm going to be okay, Mom, he ventured.  Still no response.  I guess what I'm saying is its okay for you to be dead now.  Both of you.  In fact, he added, afraid he'd given them too much leeway, I insist.

This ending reminds me of a song called, "Puff the Magic Dragon" by Peter, Paul & Mary....The lyrics say.  "One grey night it happened, Jackie Paper came no more .  And puff that mighty dragon, he ceased his fearless roar. The monsters were only in Jack's head, and he finally realized he could slay them.

Yes, Plumb Some...no one is perfect, we all have our dragons to slay, our demons to face, but ultimately, we learn that eveyone has flaws, faults, dysfunctional families and chaos in their lives, it can be balanced out, (get plumb some)......and we can have our happiness.

Ironically, the bird poops on Jack in the first chapter during his phone call with his mother and the last words of the book are, "A fat gull circling overhead screeched a loud objection.  Griffin watched it warily, but it was just a stupid bird, and after a moment, no harm done, it flew away.

Did the bird pooping on him represent his mother shitting on him, and did the screeching seagull flying away represent one last screech from his mother, and him being able to see it's just a stupid bird, no harm done,  She is gone like the gull... flew away!  
Russo's satirical humor, I suspect.    

Thank you Traude, I know you and I were not, Plumb some, but....No harm done.   ;)  Ciao!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

salan

  • Posts: 1093
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #231 on: November 29, 2009, 06:58:12 AM »
I have belonged to my ftf reading group since its founding 12 years ago.  Looking back at all the books we have read during the years; I realized that the best discussions usually came from books that most of the group didn't particularly enjoy reading.  This book certainly fits into that category.  I have enjoyed reading all your comments--even those I did not agree with.  Books certainly do speak to different people in different ways, don't they? 

I realize now that the other Russo books I read all featured disfunctional families to one extent or another.  It will probably be a very long time before I read another book by him.  There are so many books out there and not nearly enough time to read them. 

Right now I need to feed my soul with light-hearted, warm and satisfyingly predictable books (not cheesy ones, though).  Maybe I am reverting back to my childhood with "once upon a time" and "happily ever after".  The ending of a book should be worth the journey it took to get there!

Sally

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #232 on: November 29, 2009, 09:16:12 AM »
 I am in total agreement, JANE. You cannot make someone happy. There are people who are determined to be negative and 'put-upon'. And there are those who depend on others to make them happy...an unbearable burden, really. 
  I see 'plumb some' just as you do. There is very little that is 'perfect'
in our lives, but for the most part it is 'plumb' enough to get on with.

Bella:
Quote
But, I must say I came away in the end, learning from this book and from each post. That I would say is a successful discussion
 
Bella said it very well, TRAUDE. It has been, IMO, a successful discussion.
Thank you for all your hard work.

Bella has another quote that really summed up for me the major weakness in Jack and Joy's marriage.
Quote
"..that it was just you going back into that room of of yours, the ones where I've never been allowed, and closing the door behind you."
That, of course, is what Bella has been saying all along. Permitting the
barriers to remain unchallenged is deadly in a marriage.

SALLY:
Quote
The ending of a book should be worth the journey it took to get there!
HEAR, HEAR!, SALLY.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ginny

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 91418
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #233 on: November 29, 2009, 10:28:45 AM »
Traude, I think you, and our perspicacious readers here have done a magnificent job with this book. You mention you'd like to look at Chapter 11.

Here at the end, following the Ordeal of the Hedge, which has to be comic relief, as 11 starts, we have two parents in the trunk, Harve (at least in a dream) in the back seat, and his mother chattering on. When Marguerite says Voila, his i mother says "Oh my," Griffin's mother said, "she's bilingual."

That's nasty. "Mom" is dead.

This sort of bizarre thing, what is it intended to prove?

 Has he turned INTO his mother?

Then we have the vignette of the  Christmas tree. Why is IT here?  Did this book totally get away from Russo? Griffin's Christmas memories have tears running down his face.

Why?  Because he felt warm and happy despite the "drunken kaleidoscopic proceedings?"

Mom and Dad are now scattered and Mom has shut up on the Bar sign. Why?

Harold's back, too pat?

We've got lots on the bridge again and his driving, his journey, "the idea of crossing the bridge of his unhappy childhood one last time was appealing."

He's in an accident, he calls Joy. Would he have called Joy if Marguerite had not left with Harold?  He realizes he loved his parents, his mother's talking again. He's feeling plumb. We seem to have a resolution here, but how did we get to it?

It's OK for his mother to go and lie still because he's going to be all right.  All along he's seen her and then Marguerite as a caring set of  Guardian angels, he says so in Marguerite's case.


He's plumb at last.

Does the reader think Russo has tied this all up satisfactorily? I am wondering what the climax was?

Is Russo's book "plumb," "plumb some" or not at all?

You've certainly made a wonderful discussion out of this  book. :)


bellamarie

  • Posts: 4144
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #234 on: November 29, 2009, 05:52:31 PM »
Ginny, 
Quote
Does the reader think Russo has tied this all up satisfactorily? I am wondering what the climax was?

Is Russo's book "plumb," "plumb some" or not at all?

I personally, did not like the way it all came together in just one chapter in the hospital room.  I felt a bit cheated, although Russo was setting us up for a renunion, a revelation and a resting place, the night Joy and Jack slept together after Kelsey's wedding, and Joy revealed her feelings for Tommy.  That for me was the climax.  OOOps..... did I really just say that.  :-[

I think Russo's book was "plumb some." 

I, like Sally, am ready for a nice fun book.  I think I'm going to choose a Mary Higgins Clark, Christmas story.  I have my Feb. discussion book all set and ready to go after the  holidays, and I am going to read Sarah Palin's, "Going Rouge."  I must see what all the fuss is about.  I've given the media their opportunity, so now I want to hear her side.  After Russo, I am open to just about anything.   ::)

This is a great quote..."The ending of a book should be worth the journey it took to get there!  Sally
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10952
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #235 on: November 29, 2009, 08:03:30 PM »
I'm one of those who enjoyed the book; even though I didn't really like any of the characters, I could get into their minds to varying degrees, and care what happened to them.  I DID like the humor.  It's pretty devastating at times.

If we hadn't had this discussion, I would probably either not have read the book, or read it straight through and missed a lot.  It was sure fun picking it apart so completely, and getting every last drop out of it.

I'll try to feed in final thoughts a little later.

Traude, You did a terrific job of keeping us on target and filling in gaps.  I'm grateful.

PatH

  • BooksDL
  • Posts: 10952
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #236 on: November 29, 2009, 08:05:29 PM »
Sally, I hope you'll join us again for future discussions.  Sometimes we like the book and still have a good discussion.

Babi

  • Posts: 6732
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #237 on: November 30, 2009, 08:23:14 AM »
Let me know what you think of Palin's book, BELLA. I admit that my take on Palin so far disinclines me to listen/read anything from that source. The thought that at one time she could potentially have become our  President makes me shudder.

PatH:
Quote
Sometimes we like the book and still have a good discussion
;D
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

ALF43

  • Posts: 1360
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #238 on: November 30, 2009, 10:41:37 AM »
I just finished reading this brilliantly written book, The Book Thief, and must say that it is one of the best stories I have ever read about the atrocities of the Holocaust. It is not just a story for young adults, although I will buy it for my 13 yr. old granddaughter for Christmas.  It's a totally different spin on this horrible time in history.

What a likeable, compassionate narrator we have to tell his haunted story. DEATH! 
He (death, our narrator) is as weary as many Germans became during Hitler's insane rule, as he moves on collecting all of the souls.  Our grim reaper is believable and has a heart of gold.

Each and every page of this story is filled with images and provocative prose as HIS path crosses with that of our young heroine many times during those terrifying years.

This is the first book that I have read in a very long time that I will give a 10.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

salan

  • Posts: 1093
Re: That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online
« Reply #239 on: November 30, 2009, 11:41:52 AM »
Amen Alf!  The Book Thief was excellent.  I would like to see us select it for one of our reading sessions.  The only problem with reading a really good book is that it spoils other books that come after (and that's a problem that I wish I encountered more frequently)!
Sally