That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online

[straudetwo]

That Old Cape Magic          by Richard  Russo

From Bookmarks magazine:
Following Bridge of Sighs—a national best seller hailed by The Boston Globe as “an astounding achievement” and “a masterpiece”—Richard Russo gives us the story of a marriage, and of all the other ties that bind, from parents and in-laws to children and the promises of youth.
 The storytelling is flawless throughout, moments of great comedy and even hilarity alternating with others of rueful understanding and heart-stopping sadness, and its ending is at once surprising, uplifting and unlike anything this Pulitzer Prize winner has ever written.


From The Washington Post
Every year, Jack Griffin's parents would drive from the Midwest, where they were both unhappy-to-miserable college professors, to spend two weeks in a rented cottage somewhere on the beautiful island of Cape Cod, Mass., and as they crossed the Sagamore Bridge they would, as if on cue, begin to sing "That Old Cape Magic," their altered version of "That Old Black Magic."

Questions for Chapters 1 - 3

1. What were your first thoughts as you began reading this book?
Is it different in some way from what you might have expected - less sunny, despite the glorious ambiance - more serious?

2. After reading the first three chapters (52 pages), what is your impression of Griffin, the narrator?
He does acknowledge his "petulance" in the very first paragraph of Chapter One  but seems reluctant to apologize to Joy, his wife. 

3. Do you think the appearance of Griffin's mother in the first chapter, "A Finer Place", is essential  by way  of an explanation (if one were neded)  for Griffin's behavior?

4. Were you amused or appalled reading Griffin's revelations of his parents' professional and personal lives?

Discussion Leader: Traude 

My grands were  here yesterday and stayed over night. That occupied most of my time.  I'm late checking in.

But what marvelous insightful posts we've had in just seven days !!!  Thank you all.

Before I reply, let's find out where we are now.

We began with general questions/considerations  covering broadly what we are told in chapters 1 to 3. Then we added chapter 4.  The main "thread", if I may call it that,  is the contemporary story of Griffin, 57 years old, married for 34 of them,  driving alone to the Cape.  
The narrative does not proceed in chronological order. Every chapter contains flashbacks  that reveal, gradually,  a complex and unhappy childhood and much that happened later.

It's quite obvious that we can NOT in this case "stick" to a precise order of pages, chapters, even "facts", and therein lies the difficulty. We discover things in stages, so to speak; we are companions on one man's journey.  Some of you have read ahead - and that is what I have encouraged,  and not because that is my personal preference,   but because it is almost a necessity.

We have covered a great many issues openly and honestly.  As we enter the second week of our discussion, let's go on to read,  re-read and delve into chapters 5 and 6.  They shed more light on the past and bring us closer to the day of the (first) wedding.  I'm working on questions.  

Alf,  your thoughts are beautifully expressed.   I agree with them. Griffin, the child, was a victim. And no, we should not be too harsh with the man, either (that's what Jane said, right?)

Sally,  how true this is about memory.  Not only HOW but WHAT we remember is so different, and so are, often, the perspectives of people who had the very same experiences.  Yes, I think it can be cathartic to write down our memories, if we are so inclined.  But if some  are painful, it's not an easy task. (I'm referring to my own.)

Pedln, I appreciate your post and especially your restraint.  
Jane,   you've expressed your take perfectly.  I share your views and cannot add a thing.

Bellamarie, you have told us your views of the book and the author in forceful terms more than once. There is a great deal of criticism (some of it unwarranted IMHO),  even a conclusion (!), which, in my opinion, is premature.  Mamma mia, we've only been together for one week !! But due note has been taken.  

However,  as leader of this discussion, let me make clear that this is not a debate. We are not scoring points.  We are not trying to impose any one view on everybody else.  Arguing back and forth is unhelpful. My objective, here and in life generally, is to maintain harmony and to have an amicable exchange of ideas.  Basta.

Ginny,  I need to read your pertinent questions again  to make sure all are answered.  Others' posts must also be acknowledged, but  it is getting late, and tomorrow is another day.

[bellamarie]

straudetwo..

Bellamarie, you have told us your views of the book and the author in forceful terms more than once. There is a great deal of criticism (some of it unwarranted IMHO),  even a conclusion (!), which, in my opinion, is premature.  Mamma mia, we've only been together for one week !! But due note has been taken. 

However,  as leader of this discussion, let me make clear that this is not a debate. We are not scoring points.  We are not trying to impose any one view on everybody else.  Arguing back and forth is unhelpful. My objective, here and in life generally, is to maintain harmony and to have an amicable exchange of ideas.  Basta.

Oh my, I apologize deeply if you or anyone else feels I was debating or tryhing to impose my feelings onto anyone.  I in no way had intended that to be the case.  I have had strong feelings about the book but only because I have never read anything like this before.  I suppose my posts were trying terribly to express myself and also get some insight from others.  I respect we all have different opinions and feelings.  Please don't take it personal in any way, and I will respectfully withdraw from the discussion, since you seem to be upset with me.  My sincere apologies Straudetwo.  Ciao.   

[Babi]

 Don't go away, BELLA.  We need to keep your perceptions in mind as well.

 I find I haven't made notes for Ch. 5 and 6.  I'm not sure now whether
that's because I was too busy reading, or because I didn't find anything I particularly wanted to comment on.  Maybe it was too depresssing.
I'll see what everyone else has to say and then see what I recall.

[ginny]

We definitely need ALL opinions here, the object is not to agree, but to hear all sides, and we are ALL over the place opinion wise. I'm forming a...what do you call it? Test thesis why.

I'm curious, now, just for my own thesis, how many only children do we have amongst us?  I'm an only child, I think one other person said they were as well, anybody else?

I think, believe it or not, it makes a difference in how you see this book.

Was Russo an only child? That would pretty much blast the theory but hey, that's what a book discussion IS, you theorize and postulate and watch it get smashed but you come away with a better understanding of what was actually said in the book, collectively, than alone. I'm relating, perhaps overly, to the only child here.

I'll go reread 5 and 6, that shouldn't be a chore, especially since I took no notes like the smart ones of you did, and am curious to see what's there.

[PatH]

I'm curious, now, just for my own thesis, how many only children do we have amongst us?

I'm a twin.  No other siblings.  It's probably the best of both worlds.

[Gumtree]

I'm one of nine and am married to an only child - Work that one out 

I haven't got any notes either - am about to reread the next few chapters.

[straudetwo]

Well,  I'm also an only child,  born 11 yeas after my parents married.
But I grew up with a cousin, nine years older than I.   Her mother was my mother's sister. She and her husband died tragically leaving three children. According to the custom of the time, they were raised by family members, not handed over to orphanages.

My mother,  the youngest, had been married two years and no children, so it was decided that she should take the baby, 8 months old.   She did.  Luise was beautiful but a difficult  baby and often sick. Later she became willful and the proverbial "hand full" and then some.   My mother took on raising Luise as her life's mission. It  consumed her.  There was little emotion left over for me and I sensed it early. Our relationship was distant.   I loved my father.

[ALF43]

I had one brother.  My mother was not particularly happy when I was born-- female.  It created a huge gap and she admitted to feeling "jealous" of the attention that my father bestowed upon me.  It took many years to work that one out and sadly, I did not, until my mother was in the final stages of Alzheimers.
I shall return after our play "Look Homeward Angel" this afternoon.

Hang in there Bella, noone is upset with you, we all have our own axes to grind and that is what we bring to each discussion.

[jane]

I think considering the "only child" situation is a very interesting take. I think it is indeed one of the factors that makes sense in looking at Jack and his world...[and one which makes sense in understanding other people in our real world since it's a huge factor in what makes us the people we are.]

 I have a younger sister, but the family I was raised in is very different from the family I married into.  It's been a "mind opening" experience to see the family dynamics "up close and personal" in a family so different from how I was raised.

Yesterday I found Cape back on the New Book carousel at the Library so I was able to check it out again and am going to reread now chapters 5 & 6.

jane
 

[ALF43]

Both my best friend, growing up, and my younger cousin were an only child and they sure weren't screwed up like our Jack is.  If Jack had a dozen siblings, I doubt that they'd be anymore "together" and normal, do you?

[Gumtree]

You're right on ALF - if they had the same parents as did Jack they'd all be screwed up.

[PatH]

the family I was raised in is very different from the family I married into.  It's been a "mind opening" experience to see the family dynamics "up close and personal" in a family so different from how I was raised.

It seems as though, after all these years, Griffin is still bewildered by Joy's different family dynamics, doesn't accept that anyone could behave so differently.

[straudetwo]

Bellamarie,  your # 81 and your precipitous withdrawal from the group was unexpected   - made on the spur of the moment I suspect. But why?

Frankly, I had hoped you might reconsider after sleeping over it  -- which is never a bad idea. Trust me.

In my # 80 I  merely re-stated the broad guidelines for  leading an online discussion, -- which is my prerogative  to do as a DL.    For more than a decade, we have stressed the fact that every opinion counts,  that we are entitled to our own, but free to stick to them. The successes we have achieved, the  recognition and reputation we've garnered,  speak for themselves.

Diverse as we are,  converging  from different continents, seasons  and time zones,  we've  all benefited from these exchanges and formed a solid bond - even though only a relative few have met in person.

Now then,  this discussion will continue and you are most welcome to join us, again.
But the decision is yours.

BTW,  my name is Traude, a nickname. "straudetwo" was created  for online purposes. Only.
Pace = Peace
T

[ginny]

I think Jane is right in what she just said.

So we don't really have another "only child" here yet, raised in a household where that child was the only buffer between parents?  Moi, said Miss Piggy, and...?

It seems as though, after all these years, Griffin is still bewildered by Joy's different family dynamics, doesn't accept that anyone could behave so differently.

Yes and no that's not it. Bewildered yes, not accepting? Not what I see, I see him as more uncomprehending the family dynamic, especially when she seems a tad short toward his own needs, Jane first brought that up and she's right.

If Jack had a dozen siblings, I doubt that they'd be anymore "together" and normal, do you?

Absolutely. They'd have had each other, for good or ill, they'd have had each other.  They'd also have had a different mother who had to cope with 13 children, a different scenario altogether.

We're in Jack's head. He's not trying to bleach it or make it PC, there are a LOT more devastating things he might have said, read Regrets Mrs. Astor for some of Charlene's remarks.

This is becoming a fascinating discussion.

[bellamarie]

Thank you traude, Babi, Ginny and Alf,  I do very much enjoy the discussions and just never ever want to upset anyone.  Its possible Jack has unnerved us all more than we realized.    

I think I have gotten completely spoiled with the last few senior learn book discussions, where we have had the pleasure of having the authors join us to help us out with understanding their books. So... I decided I needed to hear something from Richard Russo.  I did a search and was thrilled to find some interviews of him talking about "That Old Cape Magic."  I listened to the radio interviews,  and I love how he says, his wife wanted to travel with him on his book tour to make certain he made it clear he did NOT draw from their happy 37 yr. marriage.  lololol  He also said he is not an only child, did not draw from his own childhood, and did not have this dysfunctional type of life.  lolol  Does that surprise us?  It did me.

In Russo's own words, it is indeed meant to be a dark comedy,  from the very beginning when the bird poops on Jack and throughout.  He says this book actually began as a short story about the Brownings, and when he had Jack's phone ring and he pulls over to the side of the road to take the phone call, originally the call was to be from Joy, but a part of his subconscious brain had him writing it be his Mother.  So..from that point on the story evolved in a different direction.  Instead of writing a short story about the Brownings, it went into a totally different direction he never expected or intended.  
(Much like Jay Leno and his writers sitting around and letting things totally flow as it may.)    

I truly enjoyed reading and listening to Russo's interviews, much more than actually reading this book.  
I like what Russo says here….”Memory is treacherous." [/i]

After listening to Russo's interviews I actually found myself not disliking the book as much.  I can take it more into the context of his writing rather than so serious and analytical.

I don't think there is anything in these interviews that would spoil the ending of the book for those who have not finished reading it.

Enjoy!!!

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=111512452

http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/08/richard-russo-that-old-cape-magic

[jane]

We're in Jack's head. He's not trying to bleach it or make it PC

exactly....and what we think and what we say in public can be two different things.  What Jack is saying to us is what's honestly in his head.

Things I would write here about a family dynamic might not be the way I think about it in my head. Dishonest? Yeah, probably.  [I once made a comment aloud, unfortunately, to my sisters-in-law that all Lithuanian food was gray.  [We were in a restaurant, and everything I saw had been boiled...and was, to me, gray.] Believe me, they've NEVER forgotten that comment and bring it up at some point too often for my comfort.]

So,  I cut Jack some slack because of that experience of my own.  I also take what he says as the way it was for him as a child. I haven't found any other characters who are telling me a different story...and nope, his "mother" doesn't count. She's a bitch on wheels to me...and gets no pass from me.  Young arrogant, egocentric, rude, and shallow people turn into old arrogant, egocentric, rude, and shallow people.

jane 

[straudetwo]

Thank you, Bellamarie,  millle grazie and welcome back.

Aren't we lucky, indeed blessed, to  be able to voice our opinions  freely without fear it may cost us our head -  or our freedom ?  

Think of present-day Myanmar (the former Burma) by comparison.
Or of the centuries of war that ravaged Europe!

Merciful Lord, why do we need wars, destruction and devastation ?  Isn't tis transitory life short enough already?

[salan]

This book has brought out strong emotions & differences of opinions from all of us, and we're not even half way through!  I hesitate to say too much since I have read the entire book.  I am going to try to re-check it from our library to refresh myself.  In case I can't, Straude, what pages to the next chapters cover?  My notes only have page numbers next to them.

I am having trouble condensing my writings since all of you are making interesting points.  I can appreciate the fact that this is a well-written book, but I don't particularly like it.  I am not a fan of "dark" humor.  (Isn't that an oxymoron??)   Dark humor to  me is not funny.  That being said, some of the best discussions in my ftf book club have been with books
that many of the members did not care for.

I think Griffin returning to the Cape is flooding his memories of the past.  Places do bring back memories, don't they?  He can't expect to have much happiness in the future until he resolves certain issues of the past.  Does he really want to let go?  Some people seem to revel in their grievances.  They seem to get some sort of perverse satisfaction from dwelling on their wrongs.  I am reminded of the scene in the movie Rainman where Dustin Hoffman kept a notebook with a list of all the people & the wrongs they committed.  Now that was funny!!
Sally

[bellamarie]

Jane, you are cracking me up. I have a few sisters who don't ever seem to forget the slip of the tongue I have made, and at the most opportune times they remind me of them.  lololol  

After hearing Russo's laughter and words in the interview, I found myself chuckling along with him, and imagining him having so much fun creating William and Mary.  Hey by the way.... did anyone realize Russo used the two names of a well known academia college in the east for Jack's parents?  What a sly old fox he is.

Remember Russo states his subconscious side of his brain took over the analytical side of his brain, and all of his writing went a muck.  And a muck indeed it came out on pages.  lolol  Russo had a blast writing this book.  Not to take away from the issues he created for Jack as a child following him into his adult life, but he does admit to the fact we all have a legacy we carry into our marriage and adult life.  So that is what Jack is doing, and trying to deal with it.  Let us not forget Russo states, "Memory is treacherous."  In saying this, I feel Russo is telling us pretty much what we have all concluded.  We can't always count on our memories to be vivid or relliable, so we should not be believing all of Jack's memories to be either.  Russo's laughter was like the lyrics in the song of Mary Poppins, "A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine down."  His laughter is the sugar for me, helping the medicine (Jack, William and Mary) go down.  lolol

Sally,  Yes. I agree, places we revisit can trigger memories we thought we had buried forever.  I have experienced it many times in my life.  Good and not so good memories I dare say.

Traude, " Aren't we lucky, indeed blessed, to  be able to voice our opinions  freely without fear it may cost us our head -  or our freedom ? "

Yes, indeed we are lucky and blessed to still have this freedom.  Amen!  

[ALF43]

Good, I’m glad we can now move on to chapters 5 & 6 because while reading these next few chapters one word kept nudging me (in my head) and that was CONNECTION.
As disconsolate and disconnected as Jack is he does seem to attempt to reach out and then withdraws and backs away.
 I have the feeling that he does not like feeling detached and muddled so intermittently he strives  for a “connection.”  He is looking for a bond, an alliance or maybe a kindred soul. 
While in the bar he made eye contact with the “Asian” Sunny Kim studying the SMIRT sign. “OK, got it, how about you?”  He hoped that his own look in return might be interpreted as “Yeah, sure, me.”

He stepped back from any affiliation in the bar and pretended to be on his cell.
When he met the couple in the bar discussing the word SMIRT the woman attempted to make a connection with Jack as she leaned forward to speak with him again and told him “We’re going to figure out what that says- You and Me.”  He kept glancing at the couple, sizing them up and yet not wanting to indulge in conversation.
He is so utterly—what?  Solitary, isn’t he?

He was disconnected with his own wife and their home.  It was Joy’s house, “NOT THEIRS.”
 It was as if they’d divorced and she received it in a settlement. 

Even in union he felt detached.

[Babi]

 JANE, an interesting point about differences in family dynamics. My
husband came from a large and quarrelsome family. Perhas that is, to a
degree, inevitable, with the crowding and the competition for attention
or the last piece of pie.    My husband said one reason he moved to Texas was to get avoid being pulled into the arguments.
 I was one of only two children, but all the aunts, uncles and cousins
got together as much as possible and thoroughly enjoyed one another. My husband liked my family, happily, and the distance between Texas and New York precluded too much involvement with his, tho' I did like most of them.
 I think, PATH, that Jack was not able to entirely cast off his parents'
snobbish assessment of the non-scholarly as inferiors. He was stiff around
Joy's family and they were never comfortable with him.

"a dark comedy"

  Thank you for that comment from Russo, Bella. It fits this book very well, indeed.

 I think you're right, ALF.  Jack Griffin is detached; he does not know how
to form attachments.  Understandable, since his childhood was so solitary. His one attachment was with Peter Browning, and that did not
end happily.  Now, having entered into a marriage bond with Joy, he does
seem to want her almost exclusive attention.

[ginny]

Thank you for those links to what Russo intended, Bellamarie. I'm glad to hear the humor in his voice also.

And he's not an only child, which shoots my theory to the skies, but that's OK, but the alienation is still there, palpably,  so what does it mean,  those of you with siblings, his inability to understand why Joy wants to see her family? On purpose!

It's always interesting to me to find out what the author thinks he was saying, and doing, his intent, if you can find it, versus what the reader thought was happening and the result the reader found.   Here's another entrant in Who Do You Trust, a surprising one.

How many many times have we read books here since 1996 and have had our theories, what we see, and what we think we're reading,  and then we read or if lucky hear the author say, this is what I was trying to do: this is what I wanted to show, when, in fact, lots of times we heard and understood  something completely different? Something is coming thru from the author he may not have intended.

It's interesting. I don't know where some of what we see comes from,  is it US? Some authors don't succeed in their original intent, many are often surprised at what readers see in a book. To me if it's there in print, it's there.  We'll have to decide,  each of us, for ourselves, if, at the end, if Russo succeeds or fails in his intent.

This morning in a Latin class this poem was printed (we're reading about  Eurydice) and I thought it was so perfect for this book I am posting it here with the attribution:


No Direction Home

by Charles Wright

After a certain age, there's no one left to turn to.
You've got to find Eurydice on your own,
                                                                you've got
To find the small crack
                        between here and everywhere else all by yourself.

How could it be otherwise?
Everyone's gone away, the houses are all empty,
And overcast starts to fill the sky like soiled insulation.

"No Direction Home" by Charles Wright, from Sestets. © Farrar, Straus & Giroux. Reprinted with permission.

I think he's got it.

[ALF43]

What a great poem Ginny to bring here.
Yesterday a group of us attended a presentation of "Look Homeward Angel" and the play ended with these words.
" The world is within you- YOU, are the world, you are seeking."
-
A PS here .  It was the world is within YOU.  That's what it was.

Nothing like a most depressing play to cheer up a gloomy Sunday afternoon.

[jane]

It's interesting. I don't know where some of what we see comes from,  is it US? Some authors don't succeed in their original intent, many are often surprised at what readers see in a book. To me if it's there in print, it's there.  We'll have to decide,  each of us, for ourselves, if, at the end, if Russo succeeds or fails in his intent.

I agree that it is US. That's the whole purpose of reading for me.  I'm in that lonely fragment of readers on the outside loop. I don't give a darn what the writer "intended" or what his purpose was. I don't care what the author now says in interviews or in a discussion. I don't like having the author present...trying, to my mind, to force his view of what he's done on me. I've heard too many authors I like say that the book "got away from them."  That the characters didn't turn out as they'd first outlined them, etc. I think that happens with good writers. They don't end up following the "outline"...and the age old adage has always been to "write about what you know."   I think that what some of the "know" isn't known to them on a conscious level.

In addition,  this is FICTION.  His words and their impact on me are based on my life, my experiences, my view of the world.  He may open new horizons to me, he may show me a different way of looking at people or situations, he may introduce me to people and their behaviors I'm not familiar with.  In the end, however, it's what I get from his writings, based on my own experiences, that make the book worthwhile or not for me.  And, at this point in my life, that's all I care about.  

Now, I don't read books that don't interest me or that I'm "supposed" to read for all sorts of educational reasons that I don't give a fig about. Been there/done that.  I've waded through more "literary classics" that were so much hogwash than I can stand.

I'm wondering why Sunny Kim didn't speak to Jack in the bar that night...didn't reintroduce himself when he realized Jack hadn't recognized him.  Did anyone else find that odd?

jane

[pedln]

I'm wondering why Sunny Kim didn't speak to Jack in the bar that night...didn't reintroduce himself when he realized Jack hadn't recognized him.  Did anyone else find that odd?

Sunny explains himself later -- that he thought he was seeing Jack, but when he didn't see Mrs. Griffin, he wasn't so sure.  Remember, the Griffins were considered the "cool" parents by the kids back then, still talking to each other.  So seeing Jack alone may have intimidated the ever-proper Sunny.

and I love how he says, his wife wanted to travel with him on his book tour to make certain he made it clear he did NOT draw from their happy 37 yr. marriage.

I love that, too, Bellamarie.  Funny.  No doubt lots of people are raising their eyebrows and wondering.  Now, if Jack were writing the book, would Joy insist on travelling or would she say, “as you wish?”

Yesterday there were lots of definitions of mid-life crisis, and then Russo puts a definition in the next chapters – someone who wishes he could go back to being “halfway there.” “Was this what it came to, he wondered. pumping his first in solidarity with those  younger than he?  .     .     the desire to be once again, just halfway there?

[jane]

Ah...thank, Pedln...I missed that about Sunny not sure it was Jack.

jane

[bellamarie]

Babi,  I too came from a large family, 6 girls and 1 boy.  And BOY...was he spoiled by everyone!  I completely could relate when you  said "compete for attention."  My father was killed when I was two yrs old, and being the second to the youngest, I felt my entire life, we all were struggling and competing for our mother to see us, see our accomplishments, give us the hug we needed, say the words "I Love You", rather than just assume we knew it because she cared for us physically.  She remarried when I was only three or four, and he was a horrible step father.  If ever a child needed a positive father image and didn't get a good one, it was me.  The year I was to be married, I lay in bed back home, due to infectious hepatitis, listening to my Mom and step father argue about him having an affair and getting the married woman pregnant.  For him he was thrilled because my mother was never able to give him a child of his own, and yet he had seven of hers to raise.  I know...I should write a novel.  lolol  But..since they divorced the year I got married, and my Mom died in 1990, our family has separated. Some of us sisters have tried to make it work, but we are better off apart.  I moved away from our small town and know its been my salvation. Those years of sitting around the kitchen table drinking coffee and cackling like hens are no longer.  Sometimes, I do believe you have to love family from afar.  Maybe that is what Jack and Joy felt.  They loved their families, just didn't need to have the constant daily, weekly interaction as other siblings did.  I vowed to make my adult life, marriage and children's life a safe haven, a place where the words and actions of love were open so there was no guessing or assuming.  So, in a sense I can understand why Jack would want to attempt avoiding anything his parents represented.  Although, I am not so sure he has been successful at it up to this point.

Ginny, That poem is amazing, how perfect it fits into our plot of the book.  What a great find!!

Alf, WOW!  What a quote to bring to us today.  Isn't it so true?  We can make our world, fun, loving, interesting, exciting, traveled, and a wonderful place to be...or....we can carry that baggage with us and become cynical, self indulgent, unloving, egotistical, snobbish and a place not many would like to visit.  Sunday is such a precious day for doing the things the week does not allow...I feel for you spending yours watching a depressing play, especially after taking your valuable time reading this depressing, dark comedy.  When you have lemons, make lemonade!!!

Jane, I totally agree with you, when I read a book I must feel like I am getting something personally from it and taking away something that made my time worth giving to reading it in the first place.  Good or bad, regardless what the author explains the meaning and intentions were for him, WE do make it ours.  Russo admitted his subconscious took over while writing this book and it ended up being a dark comedy, which was not at all what he began writing.  So..if that is the case, then he may very well have subconsciously wrote things we are picking up on he wasn't aware was there.  GOOD FOR US!!!!  Not much does get by us senior learn members, no leaf is ever left unturned.  lol  But..I absolutely love having input from an author.  Afterall, it is their work and who better to help us understand then them.  Now whether we feel they have accomplished making us believe it, connect to it or accept it is another thing all together.   We, as the reader, are free to decide for ourselves, and it sure makes for great discussions such as these.

I've waded through more "literary classics" that were so much hogwash than I can stand.

Amen I say to that!  I don't want to offend but I just finished Jane Austen's Sense and Sensibility before joining this discussion.  My first experience with Austen and I must a say, a classic it is, but so senseless for me.  I'm still going..HUH?    lolol  But, in saying this I will not give up on Austen, I have three more of her books and will read them come hell or high water.  lolol

Now, I have to address the entire behaviors described in chapter 5 Smirt. Page 104 "The way his parents saw it,  renting allowed them to remain flexible, so if a job came along at Swarthmore or Sarah Lawrence they wouldn't be saddled with an unsellable house in the Mid-F'n west.  Its all about his parents constantly moving, and total disregard for the rentals, buying things and never completely putting them together, and wreckless driving.  Then it goes on to tell us about Jack and Joy constantly moving for any reason they can think of. 

pg 105 "For the first several years of their marriage, with Great Truro Accord temporarily on hold, Griffin and Joy had lived almost as nomadically as his parents, moving from apartment to apartment-  pg. 106 " They didn't have or want a lot of possesions, and friends like Tommy and his wife Elaine, always helped them with the moves-"

I sense Bipolar/manic disorder here.  The grandiose ideas, the constant spending, constant moving, depressed, insomnia, highly intelligent, self indulgent, id behavior.  Oh how I would love to have just ten minutes to talk to Russo in person today.  lolol  Okay gotta run.  I am sure I gave you all plenty to think about with this post.  Can't wait to hear your thoughts.

[straudetwo]

Marvelous, insightful informative posts, all.  thank you.

Ginny, the poem is a gem.  Have copied it, must hang it where I can see it every minute.
And, to echo Jane, it IS US.
We've taken many literary journeys together,  too many highlights to enumerate here.  The variety, the breadth, the contrasts ...
Who could forget Dante's Inferno;  The Yellow Wallpaper; Dostoyevsky's  The Brothers  Karamazov; A Thousand Splendid Suns ;  Paris 1919, Six Months That Changed the World ; Don Quixote  - just to name a few?
It's been a long road over strange landscapes, time periods and locales, literally and figuratively,  and  it is no  exaggeration to say that it has been an education all its own.  

Bellamarie,   thank you for the URLs.  Indeed, the more information we glean, the better.  
Incidentally, I have referred in a previous post to a clipping I took from the Sunday Boston Globe Magazine of an interview with Russo, which took place at the first Boston Book Festival in mid October.
 
Unfortunatgely, I can't put my hands on that clipping, but I do remember  (and reported here) that one of the questions the Globe interviewer asked was whether the author himself is an only child.    Russo answered that he is but his wife has siblings.  I don't mean to be fussy, but whyis there disparate information out there?  

Alf,  yes,  it's about connections. And Griffin seems to have lost his.  It's interesting too, isn't it, that he really would have liked Joy to make him change his mind and  (offer to) wait for her.  And there's a similar occasion.  When Laura asks him to join her and Andy for dinner, he begs off -- only to be  disappointed,.  It seems he had expected Laura would insist. After all, he was not that tired.  But she did not. Joy's daughter, all right. Clearly she wondered  why they had come in separate cars.

We must talk of how to decipher SCRIMT.  And we had better not lose sight of the unnamed man and woman Griffin meets in the eatery.  And we have aa new character to "chew" on, Sunny Kim!!  

Of course, Bellamarie, the names again!   The names of the parents!  It took Russo long enough to give Mother and Father a name.  Can we assume that it was deliberate? Dare we ask why?
 
You are right on.  William and Mary is one of the most prestigious liberal arts institutions of higher learning in the country, founded by Episcopalians, the  second oldest, after Harward. It is named for King William III of England and Quen Mary II, and located in the historic town of Williamsburg, Virginia. BTW to visit the town is a unique experience, not only in summer but also at Christmastime.

We lived in Virginia before my husband was transferred to Massachusetts, and became very aware of the eminence and distinction of the university:
The son of neighbors across the street, a few years older than my son - and a typical  only child  -  had his heart set on William & Mary; so had his parents.
He was accepted. He set off, eagerly. He came home for Thanksgiving - and never went back to W&M.  We remained close and  never asked. The fall from the imagined heights was heart-breaking to watch;  I've never forgotten the experience.

Jane,  I feel the same way about an author's presence in a discussion, and always have. When an author is a participant (and , mind you, to have an author there is an honor and a tremendous help),  I  personally would be much more cautious in what I say so as not to offend.  

When I joined WREX years ago, it was extremely difficult for me to "critique" the other members' submissions on the structure, style and, yes, the spelling.  Mal Freeman had to "lean on me" before I did. And when Bubble (ET) and I took over, we changed the term "critique" to the much gentler "comment".  

"First do no harm"  is a good motto, not only in medicine  

[ginny]

Russo answered that he is but his wife has siblings.  I don't mean to be fussy, but why is there disparate information out there?

He IS? IS he or ISN'T he? If you pointed a gun at me, I'd say from what he's written about Joy's family alone he is.

 I came away from the bit about his not being an only child  thinking boy he's really captured it, then, what a writer, what an imagination, how has he managed, where did that come from?  But as Jane said (super post, should be framed) as are many of your posts, never saw such a great bunch of points and points of view: dazzling!  But as Jane said  you write what you know, and here's that unconscious thing dripping in, but he's not an only child. How can that be? And now he might be?

No biography of his that I read previous to coming in here mentions a sibling, what's going on?  His mother and father's names are given and their occupation, nothing on siblings.  Has he invented himself also? Fascinating!

I like this rereading of Chapter 5 and 6,  surely I can do that and catch up here: off to read....

[Babi]

  Bella, Jack does make it plain he does not want to be like his parents,
and congratulates himself that he is not. I don't think he realizes the
subtle ways in which he is continuing some of his parents' views.
  My own personal take on the ashes in the trunk and the telephone tie to his Mother, is simply that he is still searching for some affirmation from them. He cannot yet let them go, because he has never gotten what he so badly needed from them.
  “The crux of Joy’s case…that his parents, despite their physical absence, had intruded on their marriage as much as hers had,  that he perversely wanted them to….”    Whether he wanted them to or not,  Joy is perfectly correct that they did.  The old tapes are constantly playing in Jack’s head.  They were not ‘there’ for him as a boy;  now he cannot even discard their ashes.

   As for Austen, BELLA, relax into the atmosphere, the times and the mores, and enjoy her delicious observations. Leave your modern viewpoints behind for the interim. Austen is well worth it.

",,we changed the term "critique" to the much gentler "comment".

 
 A wise and thoughtful decision, TRAUDE. Personally, I am perfectly willing to comment, but would definitely hesitate to 'critique'.

[straudetwo]

Russo an only child or not?

Here we go.  I found at least[ my earlier post :  It is # 38, an answer to  a post from Sheila.

In the third paragraph I referred to an interview with Russo in October, quoted in the Magazine Supplement of the Boston Globe dated October 18. The clipping has disappeared   but it's got to be here somewhere.

The interviewer asked whether the story is autobiographical.
To that the author said only that  there are "autobiographical similarities" in that  he IS an only child
but his wife has siblings.  


It would make sense.  Everything points to it, that's my   "Fingerspitzengefühl" = a  very specific tingling  in the fingertips.  The word is  untranslatable, according to even the late language maven of the NYT, William Safire, who was much admired and is sorely missed.  

On of these days the clipping is bound to turn up.

More later.

[straudetwo]

Eureka! Found the clipping.  Here it is in its entirety.

Under the photograph of the author is

Casting His Spell
Pulitzer Prize-winning novelist Richard Russo will discuss his new book,
That Old Cape Magic, as part of the first Boston Book Festival this Saturday.

In That Old Cape Magic you compare Cape Cod and the Maine coast. What has  living in those places meant to you?

A. I've never lived in Cape Cod, but started visiting because I was going to set the novel there. The Cape had what I needed, though it could have been any of those magical seaside places that are very expensive and kid of recede before you as you run toward them.  I've lived in Maine since 1991.

The novel is abou a midlife crisis. Have you had one? ]

A. Not a terribly serious one.  I bought a Miata and I think that's about as hairbrained as I got.  Some critics asume the main character Jack Griffin is me, that I must be suffering some kind of meltdown and that my marriage was crumbling.

So we must establish that the novel was not autobiographical.

A. There is some autobioraphy in the sense that I'm an only child and my wife, Barbara, is one of 10.
So I was able to show what it's like to visiti a large, boisterous family when  you're used to quiet.

Have marriage and family changed in the last 30 years?

I don't think there's a doubt in my mind. We're all living longer, but also, we have to nurse our grievances longer.  Families are more likely to just disperse.

Your work is sometimes about loss to individuals and in society. Where is the country headed?

A. Oh, Lord.  In the darker days, before the new presidency, thee was a sense that America was finished.
With Obama, there's a great ense of possibility. But my fellow Americans are beginning to wear me down.
Watching people chip away at Obama, I remain optimistic but less so than I was.

You deal with profound issues in your work, yet manage to infuse the narrative with great humor.

A. It hadn't occurred to me until the writing of Mohawk and really the editing of it that I was going to be a comic writer.  I began to realize I was not going to be able to go, in my novels, from one dark place to another. I was going to have to let loose my profound conviction that the world is a very, very entertaining place when it's not breaking our hearts.

Glenn C. Altschuler

finis

[bellamarie]

YEA!!!!  Traude, I am so happy you found your article.  And YES, he is an only child.  I went back and listened to that radio interview, and I beleive I got it mixed up with him talking about having two daughgters when he spoke of the vacations they took.  OOPs my bad.      So I think its fair to say, even if Russo says he did not draw from his own childhood, I am going to conclude his subconcious DID!!  Which if we revisit Ginny's theory, each and everyone of us reading his book is going to bring with us our own personal feelings based on whether we were one or many children in our family.  How exciting to realize this! 

I came across a few more wonderful interviews which now has me more accepting of his writing style and I am actually going to try renting the two movies, Nobody's Fool and Empire Falls.  I know movies sometimes do not do justice for the actual book, but I think I might enjoy watching them.  Knowing Russo is a satirical writer helps me appreciate this book so much more.  In one of his interviews I listened to, a person asked him the difference in the process of writing fiction vs. non fiction and he answered, (paraphrased) While he has not written much non fiction, he feels when writing nonfiction you can't allow yourself the freedom to let it become what it will.  Non fiction you have to start out knowing more, a good chunk of it, where as with fiction you leave yourself open to the imagination.

Traude, 

Of course, Bellamarie, the names again!   The names of the parents!  It took Russo long enough to give Mother and Father a name.  Can we assume that it was deliberate? Dare we ask why?

I seriously went back a couple times while reading and posting to try to find the names of Griffin's parents and thought I had over looked them.  Why indeed did it take Russo so long to finally reveal their names?  My theory is... as he mentioned about the way his subconscious took over the writing, that he didn't intend to write about the parents, so he didn't have names chosen.  I can see his sic comedy coming up with these two names, William and Mary as he finally realized he had not properly named them.  What better names to put for this pair after describing their academia, snobbish personalities. NOT that I am referring to this particular college as those adjectives.  lol  For discussion's sake I suppose we could ponder why he waited so long, but after hearing him talk about how he wrote this book, Griffin became his main character, and it was an oversight or he felt not necessary til later on.  He waited for his subconscious to reveal them.  I say in jest.  

Babi,

“The crux of Joy’s case…that his parents, despite their physical absence, had intruded on their marriage as much as hers had,  that he perversely wanted them to….” 

 

Russo did a fine job in how he showed how Joy's parents were offering help so as to have an emotional hold on them.  How many of us are guilty of that, and how many times have we set back and seen this happen to young couples startinging out?  Yes, the offer of helping out with the down payment, small loan etc. is made with genuine feelings of helping them get started, but most often the end result is the parents expect more from the couple and the couple feels trapped into having to do as the parents expect of them because they accepted the help.  "Oh the webs we weave, as we set out to deceive."  I liked how Jack did not want to accept their offer and he wanted to make it on his own.  Although, I am struggling with thinking his ulterior motive was because he could take his good ole sweet time in settling down in one spot for any amount of time.

I do love how Russo captured the human everyday feelings and situations and kept them real.  Maybe a bit too extreme at times, but I can honestly say, after reading the entire book and giving it more thought than I expected to, we all know at least one person or situation that fits these characters in the book.  Just watch a few episodes of Dr. Phil and you will come away thinking...hmmm Russo was spot on writing about the dysfunctional families, with added humor for entertainment. And...it helps me to keep reminding myself....it's fiction and just a novel!   

Babi, Thank you, I shall take your advice on Austen.  I did find while I read if I set myself into a movie frame of mind, picturing the scenery, old English dresses etc. it helped me stay with the characters.

 

[salan]

I loved the conversation on pgs 66-67  Plumb--We're "plumb some", meaning close enough unless you are building a skyscraper 30 stories up.  Half a bubble off factored over 30 floors was no small thing.  Russo referenced it to writing where a false note at the beginning was much more costly than one nearer the end, because early errors were part of the foundation.  That's the problem with stories or books---they end unconvincingly because of some critical misstep at or near the beginning.  Could this possibly be a reference to his life?  Was Griffin "plumb some"?  He is 56 years old and his foundation is definitely wobbling! 

Pg. 70  "How do you distance yourself from your inheritance?  He, like his parents, was inclined to locate happiness in some vague future."  His future is now.  He has a choice to either let go and be happy in the here and now, or end up a bitter, lonely old man.
Sally

[pedln]

That's the problem with stories or books---they end unconvincingly because of some critical misstep at or near the beginning.  Could this possibly be a reference to his life?  Was Griffin "plumb some"?  He is 56 years old and his foundation is definitely wobbling! 

Thanks, Sally, for pointing that out.  If we’re talking about the foundation built 56 years ago, can it be fixed?

His words and their impact on me are based on my life, my experiences, my view of the world.

  Jane

That takes me back to when my youngest was about 12 or 13, reading Mr. & Mrs. Bojo Jones, probably the first YA novel that allowed a girl to get pregnant before she was married.  My daughter was telling me that in the story this one’s mother was an alcoholic, that one’s mother was a druggie, but “you’re like so-n-so’s mother.”  Oh dear, now what. “You’re normal.”   Whew, a compliment that I’ll always treasure.

Jack does make it plain he does not want to be like his parents,
and congratulates himself that he is not. I don't think he realizes the
subtle ways in which he is continuing some of his parents' views.

  Babi

Reading a book like this, and others that really delve into the family dynamics, you can’t help but wonder about things your kids or your siblings might not tell you.  About what impacted them negatively and positively, too.  My kids used to refer to what they called “Momisms,” a “there she goes again” predictable behavior, but it was more fun to catch a sibling doing it.

It seems he had expected Laura would insist. After all, he was not that tired.  But she did not. Joy's daughter, all right. Clearly she wondered  why they had come in separate cars.

  Traude

I won’t say we’ve been slamming Griffin, but we’ve really disected him.  Which is our purpose here.  But he does have some redeeming points.  Laura, for one.  Surely not Joy’s daughter alone.  “The hug she gave him .  ..   .. assumed he was fine, maybe even indestructible, and he was glad if that’s how he seemed to her.”  (He rescued her from the snarling dog, Sid.)  Laura is a happy person, she’s compassionate and caring.  And we’ve seen some of the same in Jack, maybe not so much the happiness, but the empathy, the caring, his concern about the young Sunny Kim.  He was the only son-in-law to repay the house loan, and yes, he did have his reasons for doing so.

Being from the midwest, thinking that Maine and Cape Cod were all the same – they’re on the ocean, right, cold, north – I finally looked at a map.  So Griffin drove all the way out to the end of Cape Cod, to Provincetown (passing Truro on the way), then turned back and drove all the way to the other end, the farthest corner from Provincetown, to the B and B which was somewhere around Falmouth.  And could not find any place for his father’s remains?

I knew the parents’ mames were William and Mary, but where did that come up in the book?

[straudetwo]

Just lost a long post but will start again.

Sally, a good point. Originally his explanation of why story about the Brownings "just wasnt any good".  In the broader sense it could be a reflection on his own life.  But not having defined  his "funk" yet, can he think of a way to repair it?  In the narrower sense, could we consider this book as his attempt to
rectify what was not good with the foundation of short story and instead produce a more elaborate, more expansive story?

Pedln,there is no specific reference in the story to William & Mary, either the royal personages or the college. It is a conjecture, and not far-fetched either,  given Russo's obvious flair for assigning names and  inventing nicknames. For a long time, or so it seemed, he talked only about the "mother" and the "father", and that is the way I continued to think of them.

I took note of the father's first name finally on pg. 70., second paragraph, where  Joy described his "recent funk".  Griffin, thinking:   "He didn't know what to call it, only its name was not Professor William Griffin."

Griffin could have called it "malaise". Whatever it was developed gradually over a period of time, and Chapter 5 provides revealing answers.   For years everything had gone swimmingly, or so he thought. But then Tommy and Elaine split up, and things changed over night. Little stuff, mostly. For instance ...
It's  in the long paragraph on page 74. There are wonderful comic scenes,  ready-made for the big screen for maximum comic effect.  

I don't believe we have been unfair or harsh with Griffin. We have been trying to understand him, to follow him on the circuitous road between coming to grips with the current problem he had at least co-created, and exploring the past to check where it all began. He's  adding up accounts, as it were. Part One takes place on Cape Cod, Part Two in Maine, one year later. At this point we really are as much in a fog as Griffin is.

He has developed doubts about the course his professional life has taken; plotted more or less by Joy, he thinks, accusingly. He tells us that screen writing was an uncertain occupation, they were flush one day, penniless the next. Not all assignments panned out, nor were they all lucrative. As time went on they did hackwork, quick rewrites,  sometimes endless variations of the same story, all fruitless in the end. Griffin has a few choice words for producers.  An interesting perspective. I had no idea.
 
Financially they were as clueless as Griffin's parents. Prodded more or less by Joy and not of his own volition, he got out of the business. They built the house ("her" house). Laura grew p. They settled into a comfortable sameness.  
But was Joy happy?  Why was she crying in the shower one morning?
And why is he now toying with the idea to move back to LA for a semester ? Why now? Just a year after whole house was finally done.

Most reviewers have speculated that Griffin's problem was a mid-life crisis, a meltdown. It's possible.
Somewhere I heard  that it happens to men more often than to women.  That too is possible.  I've never had time to ponder about it and no personal experiences.

Griffin's problem baffles the reader. The narrator himself has no idea what "brought this on" and looks to the past for an explanation.  Here's a question:  The circumstances of this fictional protagonists may be totally different from our own,  but aren't they fundamental, universal[, existential issues? and don't we all have to face them in our lives at one time or other?  

Griffin is a kind man, compassionate, generally good-natured, if a bit selfish. But aren't we all in one way or another?  He loves Laura, he loves Joy too- after his own fashion but takes her for granted.  Such things do happen to people every day !!!  Griffin was immediately sympathetic with the "dolled-up woman in her forties" who had hoped for a special evening but had to eat at the bar in the company of an insensitive boor.
Gosh, it's late and I'll have to take this up again tomorrow.

Ginny,  the Charles Wright poem and Eurydice reminded me of the indescribably beautiful, sad Brazilian movie Black Orpheus. An unforgettable experience.
They don't make films like that any more.

[jane]

The circumstances of this fictional protagonists may be totally different from our own,  but aren't they fundamental, universal[, existential issues? and don't we all have to face them in our lives at one time or other?

I woke up thinking along the same line, Traude. I don't think it's midlife crisis, either. I think it's a nostalgic trip down memory lane as he returns to Cape Cod, the place he spent a month every year of his childhood and where he honeymooned.  He's alone, and so nobody to be conversing with, and the memories of childhood come on strong.  He's in, as you say, a bit of a funk. He's 57 and that's probably too old to start a new career and too young to hang up the one he's got and retire. It's a "no man's land...between the proverbial rock and a hard place.   I, too, thinks he loves both Laura and Joy...and the funk isn't really about them so much as it is about looking back, here on the Cape, to where he's been with his life this last 57 years.   

jane

[Babi]

"I was going to have to let loose my profound conviction that the world is a very, very entertaining place when it's not breaking our hearts."

I love that quote. It sums up the world beautifully. Thanks, TRAUDE.

 That "plumb some" story was fun, wasn't it, SALLY. I got a grin out of
that, too. I also enjoyed that Jack had the insight and humor to apply
'plumb some' to his marriage.
 
  I heartily agree with PEDLN. If you raise a 'happy, compassionate' child, you must be doing something right. Both parents share the credit for the person Laura turned out to be, of course, but Jack does seem to
have been a good father.

[bellamarie]

Traude,

Most reviewers have speculated that Griffin's problem was a mid-life crisis, a meltdown. It's possible. Somewhere I heard  that it happens to men more often than to women.  That too is possible.  I've never had time to ponder about it and no personal experiences.

I have not thought of it as a midlife crisis.  I see it as a reflection and inventory of his life up to this point, and then trying to assess where he sees himself in the next phase of his life.  I find myself constantly doing pretty much what Griffin is doing and I just turned 57 yrs. old.  I think its a time we are realizing or mortality.  I don't want to let go of certain things, yet I know they have already let go of me.  I look at my husband who is going to be 61 yrs. old and I see the differences in his appearance, his ability not to do the things that always came so easily, he takes little snoozes now, his need to be with our children and grandchildren and I see the peacefulness and genuine happiness in him.  I then look in the mirror and notice my changes.  He and I have talked about how we are aging, and we talk about what we have done to get to where we are today.  We have some regrets about maybe not having the knowledge of how to invest over the years so as to be more financially set for our retirement, but then with the economy, stock market and the Madoff scam, we have seen family and friends who did lose thousands of dollars they had invested, and so I'm not so sure if anyone is where they would like to be for retirement today.  But essentially I think at this age what Jack is going through is very normal.

Yes, I LOVE how Russo allowed us to see the Jack who loves his wife and daughter, who cared about the woman in the bar crying, who took the time to even consider Sunny Kim's feelings as a teen and even now.  Jack is a good guy.  He is no more or less dysfunctional as anyone who dealt with parents as he did.  In chapter 6, I was finding hope for Jack and his family.  I have often pondered if I did the things I wanted to do throughout the years, or did I do more of what made my husband and children happy, which in turn made me happy.  Isn't that what life is all about?  At 57 yrs. old Jack still has time to figure some things out, and so do I.  I think that's what he is doing.  I don't see it as a midlife crisis.  He hasn't gone off the deep end and done anything rash to the point of destruction.  On the contrary he has stayed a faithful son in spite of the mother he has.  He is a doting father and loving husband, a stable professor, and good friend.  He is just personally searching his soul and trying to come to terms with what Russo stated, "his legacy." At some point and time in everyone's life, I think we have our demons to deal with and dragons to slay.

I did feel sad for Jack when I read pg. 131, “The hug she gave him was different from the one she'd just given her mother. His assumed he was fine, maybe even indestructible, and he was glad if that’s how he seemed to her, though he had to admit that it puzzled him too."

I've seen times when a child or grandchild runs up to one parent or grandparent with open arms, squeals of glee and the tightest of hugs and then give the other that hug he mentions.  I liked how Russo pointed this out, because it happens in real life more than we realize, and the one who does not receive the more receptive, loving hug must feel slighted just a bit.  Not that Laura or any child does love one more than the other, but as he said, "it puzzled him."

"She assumed he was fine and maybe indestructible",  wow that is loaded!  It does give a parent a sense of relief when they sense their child doesn't have to think about worrying about them, but on the same token, I sense Laura did worry more about her mother not being fine, since she always worried about them divorcing.  I would think she noticed the strain more on her mother.  Griffin probably hid it better.  Guys/fathers tend to do that.

[bellamarie]

Babi,    " I heartily agree with PEDLN. If you raise a 'happy, compassionate' child, you must be doing something right."

Oh I second or third this Pedln!  If parents get the blame for the bad, we definitely must get the credit for the good!  I look at my three adult children who are now parents themselves, and I feel nothing but love and pride. I for sure am going to credit myself and my wonderful husband in part for their compassion and happiness!