That Old Cape Magic by Richard Russo ~ November Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

Okay, I have to admit, Ginny has had me thinking about this mid-life crisis theory, and when she asked, "What,  in the opinion of those of you who do not see this as a mid life crisis, does a middle aged man's mid life crisis look like?  What are the symptoms?" she got me to searching. Here is what I found.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midlife_crisis

Midlife crisis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Midlife crisis is a term coined in 1965 by Elliott Jaques and used in Western societies to describe a period of dramatic self-doubt that is felt by some individuals in the "middle years" of life, as a result of sensing the passing of youth and the imminence of old age. Sometimes, transitions experienced in these years, such as aging in general, extramarital affairs, menopause, the death of parents, or children leaving home, can trigger such a crisis. The result may be a desire to make significant changes in core aspects of day to day life or situation, such as in career, marriage, or romantic relationships.
Academic research since the 1980s rejects the notion of midlife crisis as a phase that most adults go through. In one study, fewer than 10% of people in the United States had psychological crises due to their age or aging.[1] Personality type and a history of psychological crisis are believed to predispose some people to this "traditional" midlife crisis.[2] People going through this suffer a variety of symptoms and exhibit a disparate range of behaviors.
Many middle aged adults experience major life events that can cause a period of psychological stress or depression, such as the death of a loved one, or a career setback. However, those events could have happened earlier or later in life, making them a "crisis," but not necessarily a midlife one. In the same study, 15% of middle-aged adults experienced this type of midlife turmoil.
Some studies indicate that some cultures may be more sensitive to this phenomenon than others, one study found that there is little evidence that people undergo midlife crises in Japanese and Indian cultures, raising the question of whether a midlife crises is mainly a cultural construct. The authors hypothesized that the "culture of youth" in Western societies accounts for the popularity of the midlife crisis concept there.[3]
Researchers have found that midlife is often a time for reflection and reassessment, but this is not always accompanied by the psychological upheaval popularly associated with "midlife crisis."[4]

Occurrence
For the approximately 10% of middle aged adults who go through an age-related midlife crisis, the condition is most common ranging from the ages of 30-60 (a large study in the 1990s[5] found that the average age at onset of a self-described midlife crisis was 46). Midlife crises last about 3–10 years in men and 2–5 years in women.

A midlife crisis could be caused by aging itself, or aging in combination with changes, problems, or regrets over:
work or career
spousal relationships
maturation of children
aging or death of parents
physical changes associated with aging

Midlife crises seem to affect men and women differently. Researchers[6] have proposed that the triggers for mid-life crisis differ between men and women, with male mid-life crisis more likely to be caused by work issues.
Some have hypothesized that another cause of the male mid-life crisis is the imminent menopause of the female partner and end of her reproductive career.[7]

Characteristics
Sports cars are a form of conspicuous consumption.
Individuals experiencing a mid-life crisis have some of these feelings:
search of an undefined dream or goal
a deep sense of remorse for goals not accomplished
desire to achieve a feeling of youthfulness
need to spend more time alone or with certain peers

They exhibit some of these behaviors:
abuse of alcohol
conspicuous consumption—acquisition of unusual or expensive items such as motorbikes, boats, clothing, sports cars, jewelry, gadgets, tattoos, piercings, etc.
depression
blaming themself or their partner for their failures.
paying special attention to physical appearance such as covering baldness, wearing "younger" designer clothes etc.
entering relationships with younger people

Theoretical Basis
Although mid-life crisis has lately received more attention in popular culture than serious research, there are some theoretical constructs supporting the notion. Jungian theory holds that midlife is key to individuation, a process of self-actualization and self-awareness that contains many potential paradoxes.[8] Although Carl Jung did not describe midlife crisis per se, the midlife integration of thinking, sensation, feeling, and intuition that he describes could, it seems, lead to confusion about one's life to date and one's goals. Later, Erik Erikson held[9] that in life's seventh stage, middle adulthood, people struggle to find new meaning and purpose to their lives; their questioning, he believed, could lead to what we now call a midlife crisis.

Some religious psychologists[citation needed] believe men's midlife crisis is a psychological reaction to the imminent menopause and end of reproductive career of their spouses. Their genes may be influencing men to be more attracted to reproductive women, and less attached to their non-reproductive spouses.

Criticism
Some people have challenged the existence of midlife crises altogether. One study[10] found that 23% of participants had what they called a "mid-life crisis," but in digging deeper, only one-third of those—8% of the total—said the crisis was associated with realizations about aging.
The balance (15% of those surveyed) had experienced major life experiences or transitions such as divorce or loss of a job in middle age and described them as "midlife crisis." While there is no doubt these events can be traumatic—the associated grief reactions can be indistinguishable from depression[11] -- these upheavals aren't unique to middle age and aren't an age-related midlife crisis.
University of California - Davis researchers Carolyn Alwin and Michael Levenson presented the current view of midlife crisis in a 2001 article:
Costa and McCrae (1980) found little evidence for an increase in neuroticism in midlife ... While they did find that some people were likely to experience such crises, ... these individuals were likely to experience crises in their 20s and 30s, and these experiences were not unique to midlife. ...Robinson, Rosenberg, and Farrell (1999) reinterviewed (500) men. Looking back over their midlife period, it became evident that while not necessarily entailing crisis, it was a time for reevaluation."[4]

Wrapping up their review of men's midlife crisis, Alwin and Levenson wrote that "... Given the bulk of the data, it is likely that, for most men, midlife is a time of achievement and satisfaction. For a certain proportion of men, however, the passage is not at all smooth." They found a similar pattern when they reviewed research on what are commonly thought to be triggers for women's midlife crisis: menopause, children leaving home, the "sandwich" of caring for both parents and children. Most women navigated those periods without a traumatic psychological "crisis."

The enduring popularity of the midlife crisis concept may be explained by another finding by Robinson et al. As Alwin and Levenson summarize: "... younger men, now middle-aged Baby Boomers, used the term "midlife crisis" to describe nearly any setback, either in their career or family life."
Levinson's findings were research about the possible existence of a mid-life crisis and its implications. Whereas Levinson (1978) found that 80% of middle-aged participants had a crisis, and Ciernia (1985) reported that 70% of men in mid-life said they had a crisis (Shek, 1996) others could not replicate those findings including Shek (1996), Kruger (1994), and McCrae and Costa (1990). The debate of whether or not there is a mid-life crisis is being answered through recent research that attempts to balance such things as response bias and experimenter effects in order to establish internal validity. The above mentioned research does not support Levinson's model of a single age in the middle years that is a designated time of transition and potential "crisis."
For the most part, at all ages researchers in Positive Adult Development have found improvement or at worst, stasis for most of the population.
_____________________________________________________________________

In reading through this, I think its fair to say Jack is experiencing some or many of the referred symptoms and behaviors they describe above.  I personally felt the word "crisis" referred to destructive and irrational behavior, which I did not see in Jack.  But as we all can clearly see, we could conjecture, Jack is going through a mid life crisis according to this thesis.  Now, I need to decide if I am going through one.    

Blissful..............he is NOT! 

[ginny]

Oh I can't believe you brought that in here, that is the VERY thing (despite being Wikipedia) I just brought!!

Midlife crisis is a term coined in 1965 by Elliott Jaques and used in Western societies to describe a period of dramatic self-doubt that is felt by some individuals in the "middle years" of life, as a result of sensing the passing of youth and the imminence of old age. Sometimes, transitions experienced in these years, such as aging in general, extramarital affairs, menopause, the death of parents, or children leaving home, can trigger such a crisis. The result may be a desire to make significant changes in core aspects of day to day life or situation, such as in career, marriage, or romantic relationships

Er... yeah? It's not a "crisis" such as we know it, it's about identity, finding yourself adrift, IN middle age, regardless of what sets it off, if he's not having one I guess I don't know one when I see one.

[bellamarie]

Ginny, Great minds think alike!   So I was willing to concede to conjecturing a mid life crisis and you have conceded to '"It's not a "crisis" such as we know it, it's about identity, finding yourself adrift, IN middle age, regardless of what sets it off, if he's not having one I guess I don't know one when I see one.  And I sure as hell won't know one if I am in one!!!   

I am laughing so hard right now, I practically have tears.  Oh aren't we the funny ones???             

[straudetwo]

Excellent insights, good points! -  We're going strong here!

I'd like to get back to Chapter 7, briefly, and  PatH's post about the visibly impaired math teacher.

 There was a vacant chair complete with place setting on either side of him, suggesting that everyone concluded his condition might be contagious.   (Talking of sad ...)

The noise in the tent must have been deafening and the party of 8 at table 17 was left pretty much to their own devices.  Sunny's  spontaneous toast, meant for the "fits and misfits" of table 17 only, was a generous,  welcome gesture.  And Jack didn't  tremember ...

By my calculations it was a large party: 16 tables x 12 guests at each + 8 at table 17 = 200.

(One wedding reception I attended in the last few years featured line dancing, which I'd never seen, and enthusiastic performances of the macarena. Lively and fun to watch - but no Bon Jovi.)

Now we know all about midlife crises in general, the symptoms and possible causes thereof.  Jack didn't have all the symptoms, as Bellamarie points out. So, did he have a midlife crisis?  I'm not sure.

But, I submit to you, isn't it equally possible that he was (simply)  a congenital brooder, hypercritical - like his mother -  of, and impatient with,  other people's foibles, idiosyncrasies and perceived shortcomings, yet not admitting his own?
In fact,  a misanthropist?

Well, it is a theory...

On to Part Two, Chapter 8, Bliss.
The title is obviously ironic because Jack's 'bliss' is short-lived. The bottom has dropped out of the barrel of his life.  Something he would never have expected.  A new impasse; worse this time.   His insomnia returns with a vengeance.  "Nothing happened", Joy tells him, but he cannot believe her.  Since Jack is technically free- except for the grading, he had counted on spending a few more days on the Cape. But Joy, usually so pliable and accommodating, shows unexpected mettle and declares she must return to Connecticut immediately.  

Yes,  there's a lot of material in this chapter, narrated partly in the form of a script.  We might do well to  address the pages preceding the script first.

[ginny]

Jane that's a plausible explanation for the Table 17 Toast, but it's the first one that makes sense. You all kept saying private toast and I kept seeing the huge hall, with 17 tables, the tap on the glass, the silence, everybody turned for yet another toast to the bride and groom, and then hearing that with an insiders grin at Marguerite and Jack. I truly have not seen that.

However it does make sense that perhaps after the toasts or when the dancing started or a great noise began that a little private toast ...I can see that, thank you. I was beginning to catch the bedlam of what's written here and could not see it.  

I think it, and the Sunny character are extraneous to the plot and I still wonder why the toast and the character are there anyway.

Bella I never envisioned the "crisis" as a "crisis" as some of us know: a real crisis, but as a  cry of the heart so to speak. To have the so called "mid life crisis," you don't need ALL the symptoms,  you'd be a nut case, and you don't need a catastrophe type "crisis,"  most people in the throes of mid life crises keep on, in fact one nattily attired gentleman of that ink pulled up next to me yesterday morning at the truck stop waiting for my grandbaby, in his James Bond Beamer and driving cap.  They keep going, that's the point.  It's what's going on inside. All you need is one symptom: the loss of personal identity in middle age, no matter what brings it on,  and Russo has spelled it out several times.

The baggage in the trunk is almost over the top, that's why I asked initially if this is perhaps supposed to be humorous.

Love, loss, and what I wore. (or am carrying in the trunk).

On Russo making poor grammar choices, the man's an English major with a PhD in American Literature, I doubt he's making Subjunctive errors in a character's speech on  purpose. I wonder, don't you, if he uses the Subjunctive anywhere else, either in this text or in his other writings?  Maybe we should watch for it.

Some people are hung up on that "if I were" stuff and don't like to use it, but here Mom would definitely have used it, wonder why she didn't?

On to Chapter 8, which starts Part II (Second Wedding). I guess it's useless to speculate why the division, Parts I and II?

[Babi]

 Bella, since you've redefined your views on mid-life crisis I've deleted
a no longer relevant post. I love the way you and Ginny have come to a
meeting place. 

 Oh, definitely, JANE. I thought it was clear that Sunny's toast was just
for table seventeen. That probably explains why GINNY found Sunny's toast inappropriate; she thought it was more public.

(SALLY, you have touched on one of the things that irks me. The
proofreading in today's books gets worse and worse, apparently because the cost of careful proofreading cuts into the profit. I see blatant
errors in what is supposed to be good writing and it is so irritating.)

[jane]

from Babi

(SALLY, you have touched on one of the things that irks me. The
proofreading in today's books gets worse and worse, apparently because the cost of careful proofreading cuts into the profit. I see blatant
errors in what is supposed to be good writing and it is so irritating.)

Boy, is that ever true!  I'm finding more and more blatant errors...obvious they're letting spell checker be the "authority."  

I don't know why the Parts I and II. Obviously time has passed between the parts, but that can be indicated in other ways...like just saying so! And yet time hasn't as far as the narrative is concerned, I guess...with the flashback although a year later back to the Cape thing.  I sometimes think the publishers do this to add more pages to the text to justify the high cost of the printed books.  But, that's probably just cynical jane rambling on.

jane

[bellamarie]

Traude,  

Jack's 'bliss' is short-lived.

Indeed it is short lived.  It makes me ask the question, did Joy and Jack get caught up in the festivities, and the alcohol and it resulted in the love making?  When he woke up he described it so tenderly and lovingly, even with thoughts of possibly yet another round of love making.

pg. 179 " Joy was usually an early riser, but last night's sex, together with too much to drink, had made her lazy and content as well.  When he touched her bare shoulder she purred like a cat, which might mean she was amendable to a reprise of last night's intimacy possible, she was just enjoying the special indulgence of sleeping in after the long, grueling semester.  Or remembering that Laura was now engaged.  Before Griffin could make up his mind which it was he'd drifted off again."

So, he is already questioning this "bliss."  And I truly believe at this point Joy and Jack are feeling blissful, although it is short lived.  

As for any grammatical errors in the book and if they are on purpose or accident, I will leave that to you experts in English. I've become very lazy and depend far too much on spell check and grammar check.  But I will say, Jack mentions in his interview how he uses a computer to write his books, and it goes through an editing process before print, so, I would be surprised the computer or the editors did not find such errors and correct them.  Random House is a pretty respected and reputable publishing company. So...why are they here?    

[PatH]

I'm with everyone on bad proofreading, bad grammar, etc.  I've got to admit though, that sometimes even sticklers are careless in conversation.  Even I have been known to wantonly split infinitives in conversation, something I would never do in writing .

[pedln]

Ah, proofreading -- my summer job from hs graduation through college, at the local newspaper.  Even the summer before I started teaching.  I don't think they do that anymore.

Why parts one and two.  Each one starts (sort of) with a wedding.  Death has claimed (sort of) a principal character.  We're now in Maine (Joy's territory) as opposed to the Cape (Jack's area.)  There are probably a dozen more reasons, but I'm trying to get out of town in less than two days and don't have time to think about them.

Bella and Ginny, interesting points about mid-life crisis.  I think the term itself is one that get's bandied around a lot, kind of like "child at risk."  A phrase that supposedly explains a lot of behavior.  "Oh, he's having some mid-life crisis. Look at that dumb motorcycle (camera, dog, gun, airplane) he just bought."  Everyone has crisis at some point in their life.  Some just get through them better than others.

I don't think Joy plays an entirely blameless part in Jack's "crisis."  Learning that his wife loved his friend had to be a blow.  And she knows he's suffering from many things and is not trying to make it easier for him. (I need to go back and reread on that.)

But she could certainly do a little more to help with the wedding, instead of the half-hearted "I can help .   .   .   . . fade fade away.  The poor guy took $35,000 out of his retirement fund (he's not 59 and he'll have to pay extra taxes on that) so  he'd be "comfortable" writing checks at the Hedges.

I can't remember -- did the book ever say where Laura went to school?  Jack's college paid the tuition, but did it say where?  (I don't want to get on my soapbox.)  ONe child's children have been told since birth that they were going to an Ivy League school -  1 down, 2 to go.  Another child has told her children that tuition has been paid and locked in for any  public school in their state.   Period.

[bellamarie]

Pedln, 

I don't think Joy plays an entirely blameless part in Jack's "crisis."  Learning that his wife loved his friend had to be a blow.  And she knows he's suffering from many things and is not trying to make it easier for him.

I agree with you, I have tried to look at more than just Jack and his parents, and what part others have played in this dysfunctional BOOK.  I can't imagine what it must be like to have suspicions of your spouse having feelings for someone else early on in your  marriage, and then 30 some years later find your suspicions were real.  Joy lived with these supressed, secretive feelings for years and continued the friendship with Tommy.  I don't think her saying, she did not act on them and chose Jack, lets her off the hook.  She deflects the entire conversation by bringing Jack's parents involvement into the conversation, when they are discussing her and Tommy.

Both sets of parents have had some involvement and effect on their marriage, in real life that is the way it is.  As a couple you deal with it and support each other.  My family and my husband's have given the two of us much to deal with in our 38 yrs of marriage.

Joy has not struck me as a loving, supportive wife where Jack is concerned.  She didn't have to accept him leaving the room to talk with his Mom.  She could have been more proactive.  It seems she got her house, baby, career and continued friendship with Tommy and was happy with that.  Tommy seems to be the one she felt the most comfortable to talk to and confide in.  Tommy ingratiated himself into their lives and was the perfect husband/father model throughout her pregnancy. How terribly sad to read this.  What effort has Joy made throughout the marriage to help Jack?  Then comes the wedding, and yes, as Pedln points out, Joy expects Jack to foot the entire cost. 

Jack knowing he has the  most horrible parents compared to Joy's, carries the burden of their faults.  She uses that as the reason and excuse for all his problems including their troubled marriage.  I say NOT fair.

I was just annoyed with the whole conversation on pages 183 - 186  Joy puts Jack on the defensive, she calls Laura and goes on with this happy happy attitude, when in fact they have just had a fight, and then she hangs up and goes back into her glum mood.  On the phone Laura obviously askes about her Dad, and you hear the response, "No, he's fine."  Its like she keeps him out of the closeness of the three of them.  She's dismissive of even going to Truro, she goes on and on about how she has so  much going on and he doesn't.  The statement she makes, pg. 185 "It's not a story. Or a screenplay.  It's my job.  My life.", is one more indication of her leaving Jack out.  When has Joy truly included him into her life?  Sure she goes along, but why?  Maybe all these years she has gone along because she knows she has not been emotionally committed to the marriage, having her secret feelings for Tommy.  Maybe she has gone along because she has been getting what she wants.  It's easy for the reader to not like Jack, but is it easy for the reader to not like Joy?  Can you be fair and really see what part Joy has played in making him feel left out? There is plenty of blame to go around for this troubled marriage.

This entire chapter un nerved me.  So, is the script  Russo has given us from pages 205 - on, JUST that... a scipt?  Is this Jack thinking and mulling things over in his head?  Is Russo revealing more of Joy's part in the marriage?   I'm with Pedln, I have to go back and re read some things. 

[PatH]

I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out the rights and wrongs of the marriage.  It obviously has been good in many ways.  The sex scene has the vibes of a relationship with a history of love and companionship, where your bodies are old friends, good friends, and sex is as much about comfort and joy as about the release of physical needs.

But neither makes the effort they should to understand the other one's issues, or explain their own.  The scheduling needs of Joy's job would be a no-brainer for anyone who was paying attention to her working life.  The attitudes of a screenwriter should be more of a given to someone who has lived with such a writer.  Griffin is sneaky about trying to set up semesters off, without considering the effect this will have on Joy's job.  Joy either doesn't take seriously Sid's call to Griffin or doesn't want him to have a chance to go back to screenwriting.

I've got more to say, but I have to go.  It's a start anyway.

[straudetwo]

Yes, PatH, there is so much more to say.
Thanks for your posts, Bellamarie, Ginny, Babi, Jane, pedln, and, again, PatH.

We have come halfway in this discussion of an intensely introspective book that does not have a discernible plot but is centered around two weddings: first Kelsey's, the narrator's beloved daughter's best friend; the second is the daughter's wedding one year later.  The first wedding takes place on Cape Cod,
the second one in Maine; both locations have a special meaning for the narrator's family.
Hence the neat division into two parts.

What was Jack's and Joy's marriage like?  
In Part One we see it essentinally in the context of the narrator's past,  and his deliberate flight from  his neglectful parents.  How could this childhood not have left a mark on Jack?  That is the background in Part One and, I believe, threatens to overwhelm it.
What we hear throughout is the narrator's voice,  is, of course, including grammatical inconsistencies and (irritating) "lingo".

Part Two reveals a deeper, darker side of Jack's and Joy's marriage.  And it seems to me now, more than before, that we read Joy differently.   For my part I've seen Joy from the beginning as an anchor,  as  the voice of common sense --- something that was sorely lacking in Jack's environment.
  
An only child, Jack developed an instant dislike for Joy's Joy's large  family in Sacramento.  But it was Joy who ended up  begging off invitations because of a deadline,  which may well have been a pretext in some instances.  So Joy was left holding the bag, so to speak,  and, almost irrationally,  Jack resented her apologizing to her family on the phone.  

Jack's partnership with Tommy worked well; their creative juices complemented each other.   Tommy was apparently holding a torch for Joy.  In fact, Tommy was more concened about Joy during her pregnancy than Jack was -- check it, it's in the frst pages of this chapter; I'm not listing pages since we don't all have the same printed edition.

Joy's revelations  in Chapter 8 come as a blow, a nasty surprise, to Jack who never had any suspicions before.
Let's assume for the moment it was not an "affair" but a platonic friendship  (such things ARE possible, you know) - taking into consideration the fact that the Griffins had been in Connecticut for a decade or so.  Tommy sounds like a good man to me, even in the narrator's "lingo" voice.

We all know that no marriage is 50/50 and  that one  partner is  often the  dominant one-more or less. From all appearances, that was Jack in the Griffin marriage. They did what he wanted most of the time. And Joy accommodated him.  Then came the move East when Laura was a teenager.  Joy renovated the charming old house they found  AND found a job at ther college.  As we've seen, Jack bitterly resented both developments.  I see i as a sign of Joy's liberation.

Jack, on the other hand,  looks to me like a clinging wine  -   I know all the signs.

More romorrow

[bellamarie]

I do NOT see Jack as a "clinging wine" (I'm assuming that is a typo Truade and you meant Vine.)  He is a husband and father.  He deserves honesty and transparency in his marriage.  Joy was well aware of his defiencies, so was she the clinging vine for wanting to stay in her marriage for thirty some years, if she felt she was settling and always making the consessions?   I think not, nor is he now.   

When they finally do get to her revealing her feelings for Tommy, she turns it on Jack, and uses his parents to deflect from  her wrong.  pg. 200-01 But usually their disputes were contained.  They were about something not everything.  Yesterday's had started out like that, focused on his wife's admission that yes, for a time she'd been in love, or something like love, with his old friend.  But that perimeter had quickly been breached by Joy's claim that the issue between them now was about him, not Tommy."

I find this completely unfair.  Joy knew he would not be able to dispute he had been struggling with his parents, and father's death.  She used this, to take the attention off of her wrong doing.

I personally never saw Joy as the voice of common sense or anchor.  She was enjoying the nomad life, the partying, the hollywood life,  until she decided she wanted to settle down and have a baby.  I did not see Tommy as a nice guy whatsoever.  Tommy was concerned more about Joy's pregnancy than Jack because he was in love with her and was ingratiating himself to her.  Tommy knew and took advantage of Jack's weaknesses.  I have seen people like Tommy who are the best friend/partner, with their own personal agenda.   I was expecting to read the baby was actually Tommy's from the way Russo described Tommy's part and feelings.

pg. 197 The entire time Joy was pregnant, nobody had been more solicitous of her than Tommy.....Griffin remembered vividly the first time he (Tommy) held the baby, how reluctantly he'd handed Laura back, then turned to him and said, "Mr. Lucky."

Tommy was jealous of Jack and he showed it many times by tellling Jack he was "lucky."  He actually comes out and says when Jack sees him staring at Joy, not his own wife, pg. 191 "We're both lucky," Griffin would respond with a sweeping gesture, that included their lovely young wives....."Yeah, sure," Tommy always replied, "but there's luck and then there's luck." 

Jack had suspicions prior to Joy admitting her feelings.  pg. 190 -91   The day he found Joy sobbing in the shower, some part of him had known Tommy had to be involved.  Even back when he and Elaine were still married and they were a foursome traipsing off to Mexico, Griffin knew about his friend's crush on Joy.  At what point had his feelings for her been reciprocated?  This Joy refused to tell him, asking what difference could it possibly make, so he'd spent the long night scrolling back through their marriage, especially the times he'd behaved badly.  There'd been a fair number, he had to admit.  Had his wife already fallen for Tommy the day she told Griffin she hated jazz?  Probably not, but the seed might well have been sown that early."

Reading this was heart wrenching for me.  Just imagining what it would feel like to learn your spouse had feelings for your friend/partner, and then trying to figure out when they actually began the betrayal.  Why doesn't Joy understand how not knowing when, will only cause Jack more distress?  It may not matter to her, but it matters to him.  It could save him the anguish of imagining the when.  Joy does not fight fair here.

Platonic or not, Tommy and Joy had feelings that were of the mind and heart, and that is a betrayal to not only her marriage, but to the friendship Tommy had with Jack.  Yes, the partnership worked well for both of them, but.....does that excuse the betrayal?  Jack may have resented the fact that Joy seemed to find her happiness, she did get what she wanted, and she seemed to leave him on the outside.  He felt it when Laura hugged him differently, when Joy calls Laura and seems to be so very happy, yet goes back to being glum with him, when she gave a toast with little regard for him being a screen writer, when she refers to "MY LIFE" instead of our life, when she tells him he has never been happy, and he responds,  "I was happy last night."

I like how Russo addresses this, pg.204 "If he had a few secrets about the phone calls to his agent and conversations with his dean, what about the whopper she'd been keeping all these years?  He wasn't the one who'd fallen in love with someboy else; she had."  Again, Joy is quick to point out Jack's secrets and seem hurt, yet she has not been honest herself.

I suppose depending on your own personal experiences in life, each of us will see Jack and Joy, and their marriage through different glasses.  Being happily married for thirty eight years and knowing the ups and downs, the struggles, the times you give in, the times you get your own way, the family dynamics and interferences of the in laws, etc., etc., you learn marriage is not a given of always being happy.  It's like the yen and yang of life.  That is why in our marriage vows it is sickness and health, good times and bad, richer or poorer.  So throughout this book, I have not seen a deal breaker up until now.  But then again, I am speaking from my own personal feelings.  Adultery would be a deal breaker for me.  For me, adultery is not only considered of the body, it can be of the mind and heart and be as destructive to a marriage.

For those who do not have the same printed edition as mine, forgive me for using page numbers.  I use the page numbers for my sake of keeping track of where things happened in my book.

[salan]

Bella/Straude:  I think Straude meant "clinging whine"!  Tlhat is just what Jack is.  It seems like he is always issuing challenges to Joy.  She gives in most of the time, but when she doesn't Griffin "whines" about it.

Joy says to Jack after their love-making: "Okay, last night for a few short hours you were happy.  But you always retreat.  It's like you are afraid it won't last.  Like if you admit to being happy someone will steal it from you." 

Page 159 in my book gives a good example of Joy & Jack's personalities.  Joy articulated what she wanted.  Griffin tellingly what he didn't want; as it the negative were a nifty substitute for an unimagined possitive.  (More grammatical errors in that section of the book).  This part made me wonder what the story would look like if told from Joy's point of view.

On page 169 Joy told Griffin that his unhappiness exhausted her.  AMEN!! It exhausted me, too!  It would be terribly hard to live with a negative person.  I found myself getting very aggravated with Jack.  I wanted to tell him to get over it--so he grew up in a dysfunctional family (a lot of us did, too, and with even more abusive parents).  How long can you blame someone else for your own problems??  Once you reach a certain age, you are responsible for your future.  Yes, it's hard and there are scars and memories "too deep for tears", but I firmly believe that you are "the master of your fate--the captain of your soul".  When you cling to the past you only bring unhappiness on yourself and others around you.  Forgive all the cliches in this paragraph!!

This book has really brought out strong emotions in a lot of us, hasn't it?
Sally

[Babi]

 I'm a little puzzled here, BELLEMERE. How would not accepting Jack's
decision to keep his Mom's phone calls private be more loving and
supportive?  And to me, being able to continue a friendship without
allowing it to cross the line is a sign of maturity and marital
commitment.
  Again, now they are separated, I can understand her being annoyed that he proposes they take off for a holiday with no consideration of the fact that she has a job. It minimizes the importance of whatever is going on her life. As you quoted, "It's not a story. Or a screenplay".

   I think this quote is a key insight….  “…a writer’s reason to believe.  Because in its own way that ending would have been perfect, symmetrical, implied in its beginning.”
 I wonder how much of what Griffin remembers has been colored by his
writer’s instincts for a better story?

[PatH]

I wonder how much of what Griffin remembers has been colored by his
writer’s instincts for a better story?

Good point, Babi, I've been wondering that too.  Even the last evening with (or rather without) the Brownings could have been re-worked over the years to make Griffin's actions more to his liking.

[bellamarie]

Babi,

I'm a little puzzled here, BELLEMERE. How would not accepting Jack's decision to keep his Mom's phone calls private be more loving and supportive?

For me,  Joy accepting going along with Jack keeping her out of the dynamics of his mother and father, would result in a break down of their marriage.  She and Jack needed to discuss the phone calls to help him be more open with his struggles.  It would seem more beneficial for him and their marriage.  My husband and I share and talk about everything.  That I believe is what makes our marriage strong and keeps us from not needing or wanting to turn to someone else for that comfort or support.  Whenever a partner decides to leave the other out, or the other allows themself to be left out, I feel its the first steps of marital break down.  Now, like I said, this is my personal opinion and that does not make it right for all.  Our personal experiences of what has made our marriage a happy, successful marriage is what we bring to the discussion.  Little steps of excluding your spouse, can only over the years result in either both or one feeling left out.  In Jack and Joy's incidence, they both are expressing the hurt of feelling left out.

Sally, I do not see Jack as a clinging Whine, or vine .....Joy was keeping this huge secet throughout their entire marriage?  Those feelings she had for Tommy had to spill over into their marriage,  regardless if she did not act on them.  When you are deceptive and have feelings for another person other than your spouse, you can NOT possibly be giving everything to your marriage.  She was fed up with his unhappiness, well how much effort did she make to help him with it?  It seems she had her house, her baby, her career and her secrets. Where does she take any accountability for her part in their failed marriage?  When she finally admits to her deception and feelings, she immediately turns the blame to Jack about his parents and him being unhappy.  All your cliches are spot on, but... Russso did not choose to follow that path for Jack or Joy.  I am exhausted with both Jack and Joy's unhappiness.  I am even fed up with Russo, for that matter.  

I do feel when Russo said in his interview that the story got away from him, this is what we are seeing and reacting to.  I do think alot of Jack's memories are colored to fill the pages, and to entertain the reader.  Russo said it was satirical humor, indeed it is.  So much is so over the top, I have wanted to throw the book across the room many times. This entire chapter frustrated me.    

[ALF43]

Well take heart, Bella.  I finished reading the book before leaving for New Mexico and laughed myself stupid (er) in the last few chapters.  russo seemed to lighten up a tad and really seemed to be enjoying the humor of all of our protoganist and family's foibles. 

[jane]

You gals are far better people than I am.  I could not discuss Jack's mother with him...what is there to say about her that both of them don't already know? If I were Joy, my part of such a conversation would be:

jane as Joy:  You speak with your Mother as often as you need to,Dear Jack,  but I am out of it. A woman who won't call me by name, who is constantly condescending to me because I didn't go to graduate school, has no friends and is in one word a bitch, is not going to be dear to me.  I have nothing to say to her that is kind or sweet or even bordering on nice. 

jane

[bellamarie]

Jane,   LOL  I never was a person who could even consider saying those words to anyone, but I have always admired those who could.  Now you have truly amused me!  I have a fix it personality, I would just HAVE to be a part of Jack and his mother and father's drama if I were his wife.  LOLOL   

Andy, I read the ending and won't give anything away, BUT....I can say the chances of me reading another Russo book is about as slim as me having another baby, now that I am beyond menapause.  Labor may even be lighter than reading another of these books.   LOLOL  Okay, so I am joking, all us mothers know nothing compares to labor pains.        

[ALF43]

"There was never yet an uninteresting life,
    Such a thing is an impossibility.
    Inside the dullest exterior there is
a  drama, a comedy and a tragedy."
~~~Mark Twain

That pretty much sums up our guy.

[bellamarie]

Andy,  I LOVE it!!!!   Twain has all the bases covered here.

[straudetwo]

Alf,   ahhhh, your # 181 did my heart good.  Wise words from the Master.  Thank you.  
I was afraid there for a moment we night get caught up in righteous indignation and overlook the elements that are funny in this book.  

Typos, unfortunately,  bedevil even the best typists among us, although I won't deny that I love Sally's interpretation: clinging whine.  The term IS applicable.   hahaha

Griffin is a man  weighed down with details. Entangled in his memories as if in chains, he's distracted by each individual link. Tommy, his former partner and closest riend (there aren't many) balances Griffin by seeing the big picture in a story idea.  Unfortunately, Griffin has  brought the same obsession with details into his personal life. When he stops to look back and figure out how he got where he is, faced with a breaking marriage, and a relationship with his adored daughter that isn't as cordial as he would want,
all he has is a tide, rolling in and out of memories.  

After nearly two decades a dark secret is revealed; Joy and Griffin have reached rock bottom.  They talked and argued through the night.  The crucial grievances are described in short scenes as if from a movie, complete with an  close-ups and directorial asides.   The reader watches in horror, helplessly.

In the morning Griffin sets out in thick fog  (actual and symbolic) with the apparent intention to scatter his father's ashes.  He drives in the wrong direction but stubbornly stays on the wrong path. All the while he replays the arguments  (flashbacks within flashbacks),  trying to work through his emotional fog.  The scattering attempt fails.  He's waist-high in the ocean.  A wave washes the urn out of his hand;  he loses his balance.  LOST, he thinks.  Mercifully, the undertow his father had so feared brings it back up.  Relief. FOUND.  But mission not accomplished.

Visibility is better on the drive back to the B&B in Wellfleet. He continues his ruminations, and, wonder of wonders,  he beholds  a colony of beach cottages in horseshoe arrangement,  all in bright pastel colors, just as he remembered them from the summer with the Brownings.  He stops and stares at the physical changes (there was no swimming pool the year he was there).  The scene of their arrival is suddenly before in every vivid detail.  An  epiphany.

Joy had been right all along. His parents were the intruders in their lives, not hers.  The clarity of his memory could be called a vindication, and this reader is as pleased as Punch about it.  Mother was wrong.  

Joy was packed and waiting. She did not comment on Griffin's appearance and wet clothes, and he did not tell her that he had stumbled on the cottage where his family had vacationed ages ago with the Brownings. They drove in silence from Wellfleet to Hyannis and then  on to Falmouth, where Joy's bag was put into her SUV.  In separate cars they set off for the Bourne bridge, Joy in the lead.  

When they had moved from California, they'd  aso driven in two cars,  before the advent of cell phones,   but easily established a perfect system of stops, rests, meals.   When one fell behind, the other would stop.  

Griffin's cell phone vibrated: Tommy. Griffin pulled over on the shoulder. Had Joy noticed? Would she stop and wait for him on the other side of the bridge?  If she did, there would still be hope ...

A gig was available, Tommy said. Before his sudden death Sid had pitched Griffin for it.  Tommy's agent had told him.   A TV movie for cable,  decent money, six to eight weeks.  It could be finished by Labor Day;  they would be partners again.  Griffin explained he was on his way back home and would call Tommyfrom there.   Then he asked, "Are you still in love with Joy?"
Not even a  second's hesitation.  
"Sure," said his old friend. "Aren't you?"

Griffin switched the cell  off  and carefully pulled  back into traffic, climbing onto the bridge.  From its elevated mid-point he saw a steady stream of cars almost a mile down the highway.  None were on the shoulder.  Half an hour later he switched the cell back on, hoping to see that he'd missed a call, but none had come in.

I enjoyed all your posts.  Jane, that  of course was the perfect answer.   hahahaha If only it were that easy in real life!  

Since many of you have already finished the book,   I suggest we  now go on to Chapter 9 Rehearsal for Laura's wedding.   Thank you.

[Babi]

Oh, blast!  I just lost my post. 

 BELLA, I agree that closed off areas between husband and wife are not
good for a marriage.  I think it is the word 'supportive' that troubles me.
To me, 'supportive' means I'll back up your decision.  If you would care
to substitute the word 'beneficial', as per your post, I can probably live
with that.

 

"Are you still in love with Joy?"
Not even a  second's hesitation. 
"Sure," said his old friend. "Aren't you?"

TRAUDE, these lines speak volumes to me about the relationship between Joy and Tommy.  There was nothing hidden or secretive about
it.  It was an honest fondness and appreciation for one another. I see
more of Jack's lifelong habit of seeing everything through some kind
of filter, than anything to Joy's discredit.

[bellamarie]

Babi, Yes, I agree, if you see the word supportive from your view, I understand why you would have trouble with it.  That's the thing about discussing with type, rather than face to face, a word can be interpreted differently in such a simple way.  When I used the word "supportive" my intent was merely for Joy to be there for him to talk with, regardless if he tried to push her away.  Jack has never had anyone to actually be there for him.  He is not comfortable expressing himself and his feelings. Since Joy is from a large family that was very open with their communication skills, I would have liked it if Russo would have given Joy the sensitivity and the strength to help him, let her in.  I did not intend her to back up all his decisions, because Lord knows, he has made some really poor ones.  Thank you for your clarifying and consideration.

Tommy was so clear how he loved Joy not only as a friend.  Joy's own admission is she loved Tommy at one time, more than a friend.  If Tommy had it his way, he would definitely not have had any problem with taking Joy from Jack.  Joy did not let it happen.  So, no I am not on board with Tommy being a nice guy or a good friend.  Friends don't cross those boundaries.  If that is "righteous idignation," then I can live with it.  lolol    

Traude,

I was afraid there for a moment we night get caught up in righteous indignation and overlook the elements that are funny in this book.

It was hard to find much humor in this particular chapter. We are discussing what we individually feel and understand about the dynamics of this troubled marriage, Joy's admission of being in love with Tommy at some point, and the relationships of Jack, Joy, and Tommy.  Again, depending on our own personal experiences, life styles, beliefs etc., we will feel and see things from that persceptive.  I tend to expect much and get disappointed plenty.  lolol  

I look forward to getting back to the humor, and the final two chapters promise us plenty of that.  lol


 

[straudetwo]

Babi,  that's exactly how I feel.  

Bellamarie, in my humble opinion there is no comparison between a f2f discussion and ours  held online  for four weeks 24/7.

First of all because of the much shorter time period.
Because sometimes we speak all at once.  That's what I meant when I've described  them  as "spirited".
At other times  two or three members get off on a tangent and begin a murmured mini discussion.
All of that has happened in our local group.
The former leader actually brought a little bell  to meetings, but  its feeble ringing that did not tame us. either.
(Now is this funny or sad?)

So here now  on line,   we do not see eye to eye on what is funny or "hilarious" (was the term used by several reviewers).  That,  I believe,  is based on our temperament, experiences, makeup,  and taste.  

It was always so. As the Romans said : De gustibus non est disputandum, which I translate as  it's no use to argue over matters of taste.

More later

[bellamarie]

Yes, Traude, "no comparison" indeed, but we sure do have fun, share and learn alot here at Senior Learn,  in spite of those differences.  Now would any of us be guilty of "spirited", or going off on tangents.....lolol  I sure hope so!!  lolol  And NO bells to ring to stop the text from being typed.  Thank goodness we have these llittle animation faces that can help us with seeing when someone is expressing  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,  ,     and LOLOLOL

Off to watch Michigan vs Ohio State football game.  I was born and raised in Michigan ( a true blue wolverine) and now living in Ohio to a true Buckeye.  Talk about spirited, our family has tons of fun today, regardless who wins.  Hail to the Victors....Let's Go Blue!!!!

[PatH]

Now we're on chapter 9, which should have enough slapstick, irony and pathos for all of us.  But I'd like to add a thought about chapter 8.  Griffin makes a big deal of Joy wanting to avoid Tommy now.  Try reversing the genders of the two and see how it plays.  Can you imagine a woman scolding her husband for being unwilling to see a woman he had loved?

[salan]

Good point, Pat.  It seems like Jack was always testing Joy, and she always fell short.  What do you suppose his reaction would have been if Joy had wanted to see Tommy?  Joy was in a lose-lose situation.  I think she just got tired of trying to please him. 
Straude,  I think Jack crossing the bridge was symbolic in many ways.  Joy was not waiting for him on the other side.  Was this deliberate on her part?  Was she exhausted with his games, or was she simply travelling on assuming that he would catch up with her.  Alas, another failure on Joy's part.
Sally

[Babi]

 Personally, SALAN, I think 'exhausted with his games' fits Joy's condition
very well.  As to the importance of waiting for him at the bridge, I can't
see that as "another failure" on Joy's part.  They were going their
separate ways; why would she wait for him? She could hardly be aware of what 'tests' were going on in Jack's mind. 

 Chapter 9 is about the rehearsal, and mostly about Linda. There are some important issues re. Linda and Jack's mother, I think.  Jack kept his child away from his Mother as much as possible.  Partly that was because she really did not like dealing with babies and small children.   But he also did not want his child ‘contaminated’ by his Mother’s snobbishness  and bitterness. 
  How aware is he of the contamination of that snobbishness and bitterness in himself? I see those traits in his attitude toward Joy's family.

  Griffins Mother, dying, trying to describe her granddaughter, and finally says  ‘kind’.  Griffin thinks  “It was if he concept were fabulously exotic, one she’d read about but hadn’t personally encountered until now.”  Another line from Mom…”Happy?  Only very stupid  people are happy.”
   What an unhappy life this woman has led, that she can only suppose anyone who can be happy must be stupid.

[jane]

Sally and Babi...it's incredible how you both and I think alike about these people.  

I wonder if whatever were Joy's feelings for Tommy came from his giving her the attention and care, during her pregnancy, etc. that she wished for from Jack, but didn't get.  

Perhaps all the moves during their CA days were Jack's doing. He seems to think he has a way with words and can talk Joy into anything...so maybe it was his repeating the constant moves of his childhood as a young married.  Maybe that's why Joy wanted the house and the stability she found in the east.

His mother is so toxic she should have been on a toxic waste list! She poisons everything she comes in contact with.  Thank heavens that Jack realized that and  she was kept at some distance from Laura, though I doubt she was interested in the child...except to try and instill her hatred and warped views on "Ivy League" on the child.


jane

[bellamarie]

I am amazed at how Joy's faults are overlooked and Jack's every move is depicted. He seems to be blamed for everything wrong.  He certainly has enough faults and problems to make it appear everything is his fault, but.... for Joy to say she is fed up,is one more way of her NOT dealing.  She allowed herself to be left out.  Each time Russo shows she "offers" and Jack says no, because he does not want to put her through the craziness of his parents, she accepts it.  He thinks he is sparing her feelings and the anguish he is going through himself.  If my husband was struggling as much as Russo has shown Jack is, I would move mountains to help him. I would not take "No" for an answer. Yes, it would and could get exhausting, but...isn't that what a marriage is all about?   

Would you give up and accept it if your child was the one going through what Jack is going through?  Would you get fed up and exhausted and just back off if they refused your offer?  I personally feel Russo created worse case scenarios for Jack, and then threw in a few "poor Joy", and did not deal enough with the dynamics of how this all effected the marriage. 

He touches on how it all was effecting Laura, even to the point the poor child grows up constantly thinking her parents would divorce. Now that she is about to marry the man she loves, she has doubts of unhappiness and hurt.  Joy had to be a part of her daughter feeling this way, Jack could NOT be the only one to blame here.  Laura reached out to her Dad, to sit and talk and express her doubts and share her visit with his mother.  Laura is doing what Joy should have done.  Laura has compassion for her Dad, and his situation with his mother.  Laura is more mature and caring than either parent.  She wants to show her Dad that she did enjoy talking with his mother, her grandmother, she cared about what she thought about college, she took it in her stride when she acted snobbish about what college to choose.  Laura wants to let her Dad know, that in her eyes, his mother was not ALL bad.  I got tears in my eyes imagining that scene between Jack and Laura sitting there.  Laura initiated that entire walk and talk.  She wanted reassurance from her Daddy, and she also wanted to give him reassurance.  Now for me that has been the best part of this book so far!

Okay, Truade now that is what I would call a "tangent."  lololol   

Off to church, a baptism and Christmas shopping!  Hope you all have a great day!

[ALF43]

bellamarie-

I am amazed at how Joy's faults are overlooked and Jack's every move is depicted. He seems to be blamed for everything wrong.  He certainly has enough faults and problems to make it appear everything is his fault, but.... for Joy to say she is fed up,is one more way of her NOT dealing.  She allowed herself to be left out.

Do NOT be amazed- Joy is fed up, she's had it and chooses not to be a part of it any further.  It's her coping mechanism and being one who has lived with a husband like this for a few years, I completely understand her desire to NOT deal.  She has had it and this may be the only way to save her marriage.  She just walks away (in her case travels over the bridge) , alone and keeps right on going.  This was the crux of the whole book to me. " I am not waiting any further on the other side of this bridge, I've done my best and it has not worked  so- NOW I am gone. "  I mean come on, the guy has been emotionally gone, totally absent in this marriage except when he wanted his way.  She has had it and I personally cheered her on to keep on going when she had crossed the bridge.
Hey it worked for me.

[PatH]

The business of the bridge isn't exactly a test, it's more that Jack is looking for an omen.  He has no particular reason to suppose that she will revert to a habit they gave up when they got cell phones, but he's hoping she will think of it, make the gesture.

This is characteristic of him.  He's always waiting for her to make the gesture first, to give in.  Time after time, once they are separated, he wants to approach her, wishes he could, but doesn't.  Joy, in the meanwhile, is too fed up to do this any more.  And she realizes, correctly I think, that their marriage only stands a chance if he's willing to make the effort symbolized by making a gesture.

I sympathize more with Joy than with Griffin, but I definitely sympathize with him too.  I definitely see him more clearly, though.  We're inside his head, and get to know him quite well.  Joy remains an incomplete picture, though, and I don't quite understand her.  Maybe Griffin doesn't either.

[straudetwo]

I'm late.   My grandchildren spent the night and delighted in taking command (separately) of my computer.
My daughter arrives in Boston this afternoon.  Am I frazzled?   You bet. But I'm also excited and feel blessed.

And I simply must to reply to the latest posts, though not fully.  Again, thank you.

First to PatH's fascinating question in #188 : "Can you imagine a woman scolding her husband for being unwilling to see a woman he had loved? ?"

My short answer is no.   In my opinion, not knowing anything else about the hypothetical couple, the woman would have every reason to be pleased with him,  and consider herself fortunate to to be married to him.   hahaha

Now this was fun!

Sally, Babi, Jane, you expressed exactly what I feel.

Alf,, AMEN.   BTW, you as a golfer must have chuckled at Harve's futile attempts to teach Griffin the game ...
-----------
The action in Part Two takes place in Maine,  one year later; the occasion is Laura's rehearsal dinner.  Griffin drives to the designated place, the (aptly named) Hedges, in his old roadster,  we presume.
Joy's family is staying there, and Griffin has been offered the same possibility. "But, given the separation and the fact that he was bringing a guest,he thought it might be better to stay someplace else."

What? Bringing a guest?

"It had not started out as a separation, at least not in the legal sense. After Wellfleet, they agreed that Griffin would go to L.A.

He moved in with Tommy.  Tommy asked no  personal questions and Griffin volunteered nothing.
Two weeks later Tommy said,
"So, you're not going to call her?"
"She knows how to reach me," Griffin replied.
Thinking, true, Joy had said in Wellfleet that ]his unhappiness had exhausted her,  but he clung to the belief that she would "blink" and call him.

Obviously, things were not the same between the partners -- Joy was between them. The subject of Griffin's marriage was proscribed and, aside from the fact that they could not hit their stride, things were all right. They were respectful of each other.  In this fashion summer limped along.

One morning, when they read  the last day's writing  before beginning a new scene, Tommy said,
"Griff, do us both a favor.  Go home."
"Another week and a half and we'll have a draft," Griffin answered.
"Never mind the draft,"  Tommy said, "you're miserable, and you're hurting that woman. And what about your daughter?"

Laura had  nottaken it well. She called her father, terrified that divorce[,  something she had worried about for years might come to pass.
Not long after, the cable movie project ended; they were fired.
And, as an old proverb says , one mishap comes sedom alone.

It was a call from his mother's phone, but the caller was a neighbor who had found her, gasping for breath, an apparent heart attack.  Tommy took him to LAX for the flight to Indiana. They parted awkwardly.

"Okay if I tell Joy about this", Tommy asked
"I''d rather you didn't"
"I might any way."


Who, I wonder,   is more concerned about Joy,  Tommy or Griffin?

In great haste.

[ALF43]

amen, Traude.  Tommy was much more supportive of Joy and her plight than her own husband.  I wished that Russo had developed his character to a greater extent. 

yes, I did crack up when Joy's dad was teaching Griffen to

"keep his head down."

  that is my biggest problem, I'm nosey and want to see what's happening with the pathway of the ball.

[bellamarie]

Andy, Thank you, thank you, thank you.....I have NOT lived it, so of course I can NOT understand it. Your insight helped me realize, that there are those who have had to walk away.  I just keep feeling so darn sorry for Jack.  And to be honest, Joy's admission of loving Tommy really wrangled me. 

PatH,

And she realizes, correctly I think, that their marriage only stands a chance if he's willing to make the effort symbolized by making a gesture.

I sympathize more with Joy than with Griffin, but I definitely sympathize with him too.  I definitely see him more clearly, though.  We're inside his head, and get to know him quite well.  Joy remains an incomplete picture, though, and I don't quite understand her.  Maybe Griffin doesn't either.

I think I agree with you on the part of Joy needing Jack to make the gesture.  You are so right, we are in Jack's head, and I fear he is in mine a bit too much.  lolol  Joy does remain an incomplete picture to me.  Russo has been entirely unfair to the readers to throw only bits and pieces to us about Joy.  She supposedly comes from a less if at all dysfunctional family, until chapter 9, then all hell breaks loose.  She is suppose to be the victim, yet Russo throws us she was in love with Tommy for some time.  grrrrrr  She doesn't have a singel opinion voiced to Jack on his mother or father whatsoever openly to the reader, until chapter 9, when she finally says to Jack, pg. 261  Joy warned him not to press the issue.  Laura was old and smart enough to sift ideas, and his mother needn't be treated like a venomous snake."  Halelujah!!!!!  She finally voices an opinion!  This has to help Jack in some way realize just because his mother was a monster in his eyes, he does NOT have to pass that on to his child. Joy is saying, let Laura draw her own conclucions and feel her own feelings.  AMEN!!!

I still see Tommy as a cad.  He was there for Joy during her pregnancy more than Jack, but then he was trying to win points because he was in love with her.  Did anyone notice Tommy was not invited to Laura's wedding?  Why didn't Joy want to be around Tommy, she has had NO problem keeping him as her confidante all these years.  She was phoning him and giving him updates on her marriage etc., and he was calling her?  Maybe Jack did want to see if he would notice the attraction she may still have for Tommy, or maybe he wanted to see if they could all remain comfortable friends now that Joy admitted she had feelings for Tommy.  Who knows, either way it was twisted for Russo to add this.  As if he hasn't put enough defects on Jack already.  lol 

Its pretty clear Tommy is constantly wanting to interfere and call Joy with whatever news he learns from Jack.  Jack says NO.  Jack continuoulsy keeps trying to shelter Joy from all the stuff he is going through.  Tommy realizes Joy and Jack should be sharing this stuff, communicating with each other, be there in support of each other.  Tommy realizes Joy has given up as much as Jack has, and is waiting for Jack to reach out and let her in.  Oh what a complicated relationship.  But then like many couples, its about waiting for the other to make the first move.  In this case,  maybe I can understand why Joy doesn't.  But I sure do feel sad for Jack too, because he seems so incapable of doing it.  This is why the scene with Jack and Laura was so touching for me.  I will take this from the book and cherish the fact Russo, having two daughters of his own, they getting married, and him knowing what its like for a Dad on that day, he decided to allow Laura and her Dad to have this very touching, loving, special talk. 

Thank you Russo for that.  I see my husband with our grown daughter and remember the two of them on her wedding day, and it still warms my heart.  She will always be Daddy's little girl in his eyes.  Jack got that special feeling he had been wanting from Laura throughout the book.  Laura needed this as much as Jack.

Russo has been void with tender emotions in this book, and has only given us glances of what Joy, Jack and Laura had good as a family.  The morning after Jack and Joy made love and this scene are the two I have connected to this family as a loving family.  This gave me hope.

[ALF43]

I automatically assumed that the reason for Tommy not attending Laura's wedding was because it was his choice not to go.  I'm sure that he told Joy, during one of their many conversations, that he really did not belong there.

[straudetwo]

What about the guest Griffin brought with him, who is not coming to the dinner and whom Joy seems to know? Did you guess who it is?

To invite Tommy to Laura's wedding would have been absurd. I'm sure Tommy never expected it. Joy had no wish to reconnect; for her it was over.  It is over for all practical purposes. Why should we keep holding Joy's feet  to the fire?  

Bellamarie, the vehemence of your repeated criticisms of Mr. Russo astonishes and, frankly, embarrasses me.   After all, we are discussing a book, not the author.