Author Topic: Fiction ~ Old ~ New ~ Best Sellers #2 (Read 774982 times)

nlhome · « **Reply #4200 on:** January 05, 2013, 08:14:07 PM »

This is the place to talk about the works of fiction you are reading, whether they are new or old, and share your own opinions and reviews with interested readers.

Every week the new bestseller lists come out brimming with enticing looking books and rave reviews. How to choose?

Discussion Leader: Judy Laird

I read 40 books that I remembered to write down - more than that because I forgot several.

I read 3 by Colin Cotterill, about the coroner in Laos in the 1970's, and I enjoyed all three.

I also read the Grace and Favor Series by Jill Churchill and several of gth eDonna Leon mysteries set in Venice, again enjoying all.

And Parnassus on Wheels by Morley, a different book from the mysteries I usually read, and that was good also.

I tried and failed with several books, notably Ship of Fools - Not able to read anything too serious this year, I guess.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #4201 on:** January 05, 2013, 11:26:02 PM »

Salan! What a fun exercise you sent me on. I lost my list of books i'd read - and my tbr lists -when my palm pilot conked out on me recently. But i had written down many of what i'd read in a little notebook, so i looked thru it to see what i had marked in 2012. Then i had a brilliant

idea! I went back thru the "fiction" and "mystery" discussions on SL for 2012! (its 11:30pm, will have to check the non-fiction at another time.....yawn) but what fun to see what i read and what other discussions we had in 2012! In those two categories i read 82 books!!??!! I've impressed myself!

. It took a long time, but i could skim thru the pages quickly because i could immediately see my picture come up. I did it on my ipad, so i just scrolled quickly thru each page.

Thanks for the question. I'll come back tomorrow to tell you which ones i liked best.

Jean

Steph · « **Reply #4202 on:** January 06, 2013, 06:36:02 AM »

hmm, the problem is that I don't keep track of books and so the ones read last January are a far distant memory.. I did read and like On Agate Hill. I love Lee Smith. I read several by Stewart O'Nan.. I really like his writing and am trying to track down everything he wrote. Oh I read Parnassis years ago and loved it, An all time favorite.

nlhome · « **Reply #4203 on:** January 06, 2013, 10:37:30 AM »

Steph, I read Parnassis on Wheels because of recommendations on Seniorlearn - I get a lot of my book ideas from the discussions here.

I track my books because I participate in a book challenge through another site. The challenge is set out at the very end of the year, and some participants actually pick their books for the challenge ahead of time, such planning! I usually just read and keep track, and then, towards the end of the year I assign books to meet the challenge topics and see what I have left and try to fill in. I am sorry to say, for 2012 my method did not work. I was short 3 books and just could not find titles or authors that worked with the categories. But it's always fun.

Babi · « **Reply #4204 on:** January 06, 2013, 11:16:20 AM »

Here I am a native Texas and I never heard of Ben Rehder! What kind of books does he write, SALAN? Since you read several, he must be good.

I don't try to keep a record of the books I read. I do remember finding a new (to me) author of historical fiction of the Tudor era, C. J. Sansom. I read every one of
his series, which to date I believe is four. Excellent writer.
I wanted to try Stewart O'Nan, but my library doesn't have anything of his.

marjifay · « **Reply #4205 on:** January 06, 2013, 11:45:40 AM »

My favorite reads of 2012:
BRING UP THE BODIES by Hilary Mantel
WE HAVE ALWAYS LIVED IN THE CASTLE by Shirley Jackson
THE HUNTER by Richard Stark (Donald Westlake)
THE PLEASURE OF MY COMPANY by Steve Martin
GOD ON THE ROCKS by Jane Gardam
TRAIN DREAMS by Denis Johnson
PIGEON ENGLISH by Stephen Kelman
THE UNINVITED GUESTS by Sadie Jones
GARDENS OF WATER by Alan Drew
OUR MAN IN HAVANA by Graham Greene (I didn't care that much for the movie)
Nonfiction:
GRACE AND GRIT; MY FIGHT FOR EQUAL PAY AND FAIRNESS AT GOODYEAR by Lilly Ledbetter
UNBROKEN by Laura Hillenbrand

I read 88 books in 2012, 13 of which were DNFs. (I usually give a book 100 pages before tossing it.)

This year I want to read an average of 3 books/week, including one fiction, one nonfiction, and one mystery (I love good mysteries). I'm going to try to have at least one of the three be from books I own but have not yet read)

Marj

marjifay · « **Reply #4206 on:** January 06, 2013, 12:24:01 PM »

I'd never heard of Ben Rehder either. But checking his page at Amazon, Inc., looks as it he writes good mysteries. All have gotten 4-1/2 or 5 stars at Amazon. I put his GONE THE NEXT on my TBR list. Thanks for mentioning him, Sally.

Marj

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #4207 on:** January 06, 2013, 01:41:35 PM »

Goodness me, you are some amazing readers! Eighty books in one year!

I didn't manage anything like that, but here goes:

Best books I read in 2012: Let's Kill Uncle (Rohan O'Grady); Blue Murder at Kudu (Daniel Edmondson); Hound Dog Days (Harry Pearson); The Ambassador's Wife (Jake Needham)

Worst books I struggled through in 2012: T is for Terror (Gayle Wigglesworth); The Five People You Meet in Heaven (Mitch Albom); The Testament of Gideon Mack (James Robertson)

Rosemary

JoanK · « **Reply #4208 on:** January 06, 2013, 03:43:55 PM »

I've had my kindle for two years and have 385 books in my archives. thats more than one every two days, and doesn't include library books of which I've read plenty. I haven't read them all, but almost. Of course, there are a lot of mysteries which are really quick reads. And I am a fast reader. but still, I can't really believe I read that much. if I organized my reading, I might actually know something!

JeanneP · « **Reply #4209 on:** January 06, 2013, 04:18:19 PM »

I promised my self that from the 1st day of 2013 I would keep a good record of both books and dvd that I read. Not done it yet. It has gotten now, specially since I retired that I read at least 3 books and I am finding myself ordering from the library books and DVD I have read or watched in years past.
Only takes me a few pages to realize it and put back in book bag. But I need to be more organized. Save dragging books back to library

Maybe I will do that today. Better do it before 7pm as will not get away from the TV until 10pm. PBS station.

JeanneP · « **Reply #4210 on:** January 06, 2013, 04:24:19 PM »

Oh! good. I found a way. I picked up the 2013 Magazine at the Library the other day. Great listing of the best books voted for in 2011, 2012. I will use that list for ordering and then just cross it out making a note as to if liked or didn't finish.

My problem again is I like to read the Large Print books. Was getting that many where coming out this way but seems they have cut back.
Figuring that if people want easy to read they can use a READER.

Will see how this works out.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #4211 on:** January 06, 2013, 05:33:29 PM »

Oh Rosemary! Don't compare yourself with us retired folks whose children are off on their own and don't require much of our time. I can stay up half the night reading if i want to and adjust my next days activities to catch a nap.

I have to write down the books i read in something small enough to drop in my jacket pocket - it keeps me from coming home from the library w/ three books i've already read!?!

O.k., to answer Salan's question properly ......... My favorite books of the year are A Women's Place - Lynn Austin (4 women working in a munitions factory in WWII); Explosive Eighteen - Evanovich (i laughed and laughed, her best book in a while IMO) ; Fall of Giants; the Physician by Noah Gordon, my first by him (historical fiction- Middle Ages - man trying to get an education in medicine pretends to be a Jew in order to be trained by Jewish doc in Middle East); Whisper by Belva Plain ( upscale couple hides the fact that husband is a wife abuser) ; Brown-eyed Girl by Virginia Swift (women's studies prof in Wyoming solves mystery); Clara and Mr Tiffany, forgotten author, i'll get back to you ( story of a women who was probably responsible for many of the early Tiffany designs) fiction.Susan Vreeland

Jean

mabel1015j · « **Reply #4212 on:** January 06, 2013, 05:43:23 PM »

Oh, i just found this about The Physician on Amazon:

Read by millions in thirty-two countries, soon to be a major motion picture, and voted “one of the ten most-beloved books of all time........"

Also discovered it is the first of a trilogy, the second one is titled Shaman and his descendent leaves Scotland and comes to Boston. My library has it, another tbr! The third one is titled Matter of Choice. but in another place saw it titled as Choices

I don't know who did the voting on "one of the ten most beloved books of all time." i liked it, but i dont know if its in my top ten.

Jean

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4213 on:** January 06, 2013, 06:24:58 PM »

started to count and it became too complicated - some books are easy since I buy on Amazon and I do list most on Shelfari and Goodreads - but many quick reads fall through the cracks - the ones you pick up and stay up till 3: in the morning to finish or the ones you pick out at B&N or Book people and sit in the store with a cup of coffee and before you know it is night time outside and you have finished the book.

I really enjoyed reading Bleak House here on Senior Learn - not just because of all the imput but I became aware of just what a fine writer he is.

Favorite novels -
The Snow Child -
The Storyteller of Marrakesh: A Novel -
The Tragedy of Arthur: A Novel - Wow what a writer
The Night Circus -
As The Pig Turns (Agatha Raisin, No. 22) - Just love this series and cannot miss any, a quick few hour read but oh so much fun.

Books from which I learned a lot -
What Southern Women Know about Faith: Kitchen Table Stories and Back Porch Comfort - a couple of stories from a different perspective that were just what I needed to hear
Making Ideas Happen -
Molecular Gastronomy: Exploring the Science of Flavor (Arts and Traditions of the Table: Perspectives on Culinary History) -
Meister Eckhart, from Whom God Hid Nothing: Sermons, Writings, and Sayings -Blew me away.
The Cambridge Illustrated History of Germany (Cambridge Illustrated Histories) - This book alone set me off on a series of books about ancient tribes like the Lombard's and the Goths and the Merovingian's etc. At least 9 other books just for the first few chapters - not finished reading the book yet since each historical event prompts more questions and more to read like Religious Poverty and the Profit Economy in Medieval Europe. Fascinating stuff!

I hope I can sneak this in beyond the 10 - it is a different category she says and asks plaintively - books of poetry - my favorite - Joy Harjo's She Had Some Horses -

salan · « **Reply #4214 on:** January 07, 2013, 06:06:48 AM »

Babi, Ben Rehder's books are usually (but not always) comic mysteries with quirky characters. I had never read any of his books...thought they wouldn't appeal to me; but one of the charter members in my ftf book club recommended him for one of our selections. The books are well written and easy to read. A lot of them take place in Blanco Co, TX. I believe he lives in Austin. Barb, have you read any of his??

Thank everyone for their response. It's fun to see what books you enjoyed. I have read a number of them and enjoyed them, also.
Sally

Steph · « **Reply #4215 on:** January 07, 2013, 06:21:17 AM »

Noah Gordon.. Oh me, I have read most of his books. An excellent author who does really really thorough research. Do look for his others..
I am impressed with the lists. I keep certain favorite authors in my tbr piles so that when I am in a really horrid mood, I can go and find something I know I will enjoy.. Clara and Mr. Tiffany was a favorite from last year.. Made me appreciate the Morse Museum, which is local and a huge respository of Tiffany. Best in the world..

marjifay · « **Reply #4216 on:** January 07, 2013, 08:17:50 AM »

Per JoanK, "And I am a fast reader. but still, I can't really believe I read that much. if I organized my reading, I might actually know something!" LOL, I just wish I did as well as you!

Thanks to everyone, my TBR llist has expanded. So many interesting books.

One book I want to read is Sam Harris' FREE WILL (a short book of some 90 pages). From a review: "Free Will is an illusion so convincing that people simply refuse to believe that we don’t have it. In Free Will, Sam Harris combines neuroscience and psychology to lay this illusion to rest at last. Like all of Harris’s books, this one will not only unsettle you but make you think deeply." This would probably make for a good book group discussion.

Marj

Babi · « **Reply #4217 on:** January 07, 2013, 09:23:20 AM »

ROSEMARY, you really need to give up the idea you have to 'struggle through' bad books.
It's a waste of time you could be spending reading a good book. And it can be so satisfying
throwing one across the room when really, really irritated.

Sounds good, SALAN. I enjoy comic mysteries. BARB, I'd like to get my hands on that
"Meister Eckhart, From Whom God Hid Nothing". That's staking out a mighty big claim!

MARJ, I believe we do have free will. The catch is, we have to be willing to face the
consequences, and we usually are not.

marjifay · « **Reply #4218 on:** January 07, 2013, 09:53:31 AM »

I agree, Babi, no one should struggle thru bad books. Life's too short. Spend time with the good/great ones. I like what Dorothy Parker said: "This is not a book to be tossed aside lightly. It should be thrown with great force."

As to free will, I've often wondered whether we have it, altho' everyone seems to believe we do. That's why I want to read Sam Harris's book. Have you read it?

Marj

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4219 on:** January 07, 2013, 01:21:51 PM »

Yes, Salon - he seems to be a quarky as his books - he was a speaker on a panel of Texas authors a couple of years ago at the annual Book Festival - I believe he lives over near San Saba someplace but frequents Austin. I always give books as gifts or part of gifting during Christmas and for a couple of the men who are not big readers I usually send one of his books - they are light and fun filled with phrases we are used to hearing.

Babi some of Meister Eckhart's letters are online - I will try and find them - there are books I just cannot give up - I return to them to review passages and this is one of those books. His explanation of the soul and how it connects to God is so magnificent that he says, is not of our doing and that all we can do is say Thank You - That is why you see especially, among College Students Tshirts that say Thank You and then in tiny print Meister Eckhart.

His writings probably hit buttons for me since the church we attended when I was in 3rd to 8th grade was all about Adoration of the Eucharist with very little Bible reading - Masses were glorious with organ music, candles, incense, etc. and very short Homilies. There was nothing special about the long wooden building but everyone's skill was utilized to build and maintain the church and grounds. Each act of work was considered a form of adoration from ironing the alter cloth to mowing the lawn. And so it was easy for me to see the wonderment in the words of this 13th and 14th century Dominican.

rosemarykaye · « **Reply #4220 on:** January 08, 2013, 04:47:03 AM »

Babi - you are so right! Two of those three 'struggle' books I listed were from the library book group, and since then I've had to read another one (The Savage Garden' by Mark Mills - AWFUL self-indulgent rubbish) - this is why I want to leave the group, and indeed I am not going to its meeting today. The Wigglesworth one was a Kindle freebie, and so bad that it was actually quite funny (and short) so I suppose I didn't really 'struggle' with that one - I quite enjoyed reading all the worst bits out to Madeleine!

By the way, might you be able to get Gavin & Stacy on Netflix?

Rosemary

Steph · « **Reply #4221 on:** January 08, 2013, 09:04:33 AM »

Free Will.. Hmm, I wish I were sure we had it, but I suspect destiny,birth and many other factors are there as well.
I am in the middle of one of those weeks, you want to put away and never think of again.Thus far,, refrigerator is broken and a part ordered, but it has not come in.. Town water says I have a slow leak and I am testing every single source of water in the house.. sigh.. No idea what I will do when I find it, but I am testing..I have too many meetings, all with at least one human who simply cannot be nice to anyone.. Sigh. Another organization needs me to make a home visit for some people who want to adopt a corgi and I am really short of time, but they seem nice and are anxious, so somehow.. and at the end of the week, we will be scattering ashes.. My love, at last in water he loved and sailed on for so many years.

Babi · « **Reply #4222 on:** January 08, 2013, 09:17:38 AM »

Haven't read it, MARJ, and really, I don't believe I want to. Mr. Harris is entitled to his
opinion, but I don't feel obliged to read all about it.

Thank you, BARB. I will be interested to read what you find. I intend, tho', to locate a
copy of his work and purchase it for my permanent library. I look forward to reading it.

Don't know, ROSEMARY. I can check and see. Often, tho', the British series do not have
the closed captioning I need. I'll see what I find.

Frybabe · « **Reply #4223 on:** January 08, 2013, 10:38:18 AM »

I had a religious class in college (required, it was a Catholic college) where we read and discussed free will. I came to the conclusion that free will isn't free at all. In fact, there isn't really a choice; you choose Christ or you aren't choosing at all. I don't think that was well explained. I found the whole thing confusing, so that would account for my poor explanation.

I don't make lists of books I've read except to mark my inventory list whether read or not and if I liked it. Which reminds me. I must make an addition or two and update the thing. Most of the year was taken up by reading Scifi. I have done all of Edgar Rice Burroughs' Barsoom Series (John Carter, et.al.), John Scalzi's Redshirts (a lot of fun), and the Halo series based on the game. I was quite taken with the Halo series except for the second book. The Flood was a bit tedious, but it did introduce the reader to an important element to future books. I am still reading The Ripple Effect (nonfiction) which I put on hold for a while. It is now into an area of water use in which I am interested. Early last year I read a few mysteries including House of a Thousand Candles (forget the author's name) which I would liken to some of those old suspense thriller movies. You know the kind of thing - guy inherits an old mansion out in the middle of nowhere which he must inhabit for a whole year in order to receive the inheritance, strange goings on, secret passages, pretty girl, etc. Enjoyed it a lot.

ginny · « **Reply #4224 on:** January 08, 2013, 10:57:29 AM »

House of a Thoursand Candles sounds fabulous, Frybabe. I believe you are the best read person I ever met! Thanks for that recommendation.

Free will, every time I hear that phrase I think of Dickens where the Ghost of Marley tells Scrooge what that chain he wears is:

Quote

I made it link by link, and yard by yard; I girded it on of my own free will, and of my own free will I wore it. Is its pattern strange to you?"

Frybabe · « **Reply #4225 on:** January 08, 2013, 11:00:53 AM »

Wonderful quote, Ginny.

JeanneP · « **Reply #4226 on:** January 08, 2013, 11:52:47 AM »

Now my small town library do have the DVDs of Gavin and Lacey. Surprised if it can't be gotten on Netflix. Now our library can get things on loan from most all of Illinois. If many ask for it they usually buy their own copies.

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4227 on:** January 08, 2013, 12:09:14 PM »

Great quote Ginny - As I understand Free Will it is not the opposite of control by another but rather, about per-destination versus Free Will and yet, we have various views used in Theology even among Christians as well as, the view of Free Will basic to the Law -

As much as we are learning about the brain that shows the hypothalamus as wanting more pleasure stimulation and by increasing dopamine we increase our pleasure in solving problems to pleasure of social interaction as well as, affecting a pleasure/reward center so that you have to wonder if the Law saying free will is basic to responsibility will be turned on its head. Those researching the brain so far seem to suggest much of our behavior is biological and those authors writing about habit are also suggesting health habits that increase dopamine affect our abilities, like the ability to focus.

Here is a nice pdf article on Free Will -
http://www.phc.edu/UserFiles/File/_Other%20Projects/Global%20Journal/8-2/JWMontgomery%20Free%20Will.pdf

And this is a great site that goes into free will versus predestination and how up to a third of this nation believes our destiny was set by God versus a free will.
http://www.indiana.edu/~rcapub/v29n1/will.shtml

Frybabe · « **Reply #4228 on:** January 08, 2013, 12:43:32 PM »

Ah, Barb, you brought up a point I had forgotten about in the class, predestination vs. free will. It rings a bell somewhere. The interesting thing is I still have two books from my religion class(es) but neither one has free will in the title or in any of the chapter headings. I was going to try to reread that section. So, now, did I have another book that went missing or what? The free will discussion is practically the only thing I remember (vaguely, and probably because I found it hard to fathom) about the class. I am going to read your article. Maybe that will help.

mabel1015j · « **Reply #4229 on:** January 08, 2013, 12:59:37 PM »

Ah Steph, it sounds like you have a week that could be overwhelming, don't forget to take some time "to chill", as the kids say. Hope you can relax some next week.

My husband was a bio major when i met him in college in 1962. At that time he said he believed much of people's personalities, including sexual preference, were determined by brain chemistry. The older we get and the more science can look at the brain the more this seems to be true and free will has less and less to do with our behavior. Then if we add all our personal psychological needs, free will diminishes even more. Of course, we don't want to think about that being true and in most of our day-to-day activities it is nt true, which makes it easy for us to want to believe we have free will.

maryz · « **Reply #4230 on:** January 08, 2013, 01:26:01 PM »

{{{{{Steph}}}}}}

Frybabe · « **Reply #4231 on:** January 08, 2013, 03:13:58 PM »

Steph, what an emotional event you have coming up. I will be thinking of you this weekend.

marjifay · « **Reply #4232 on:** January 08, 2013, 08:46:30 PM »

Per those articles you posted on Free Will and predestination, Barb, it's beyond me how anyone can believe that stuff. But that's me. An atheist thru and thru.

Marj

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4233 on:** January 08, 2013, 09:53:51 PM »

aren't you glad you live now where and when you can choose your beliefs rather than during Medieval Europe when politics and religion were all one and to live under the radar was not so easy. My grand has a new set of ideas and beliefs he is arguing - that Technology and the capacity of the brain that is more recently understood is the basis rather than any God - there are several Theologians exploring this possibility but as you know there are many theologies conflicting within one religion and especially within the Catholic religion.

marjifay · « **Reply #4234 on:** January 08, 2013, 11:13:55 PM »

"aren't you glad you live now where and when you can choose your beliefs rather than during Medieval Europe when politics and religion were all one and to live under the radar was not so easy?"

Absolutely! And you don't have to go back that far. I'm thankful I wasn't born in the Middle East where people believe it's okay to kill you if you don't believe as they do.

Marj

marjifay · « **Reply #4235 on:** January 08, 2013, 11:42:11 PM »

I really got a good laugh out of the Indiana Univ. prof. who apparently believes in Predestination, talking about the 400 year debate over predestination and self-determination. Reminded me of the group the Pope put together that spent years debating where unbaptized babies who died went -- heaven, hell, or some kind of limbo. And talking about Augustine who wasn't ready yet to stop sinning and said something like, "save me Lord, but not yet." And the pastor at Saddleback College who told the new members that God knew they would be there and also knew eveything even to the color of their tablecloth. How on earth can people keep a straight face when listening to that kind of stuff?

Marj

BarbStAubrey · « **Reply #4236 on:** January 09, 2013, 01:59:56 AM »

Formal written history has a way of isolating one viewpoint as if that was the only one - The Christian church has always built itself around the traditions and local folklore of the people that were being converted often by their ruler - Until Vatican II there were 52 rites to the church - that means 52 liturgies and views and holy days and ceremonies just like we have separate states - During Vatican II it was agreed that there would be a reduction to 26 rites. In common they have only dogma and even that is split by some of the rites - with only dogma in common that leaves room for many viewpoints. We have many in the church speaking from their understanding that journalists, so used to one leader think they are talking for the whole church or at least the church as they know it in the US.

We also have other Christians who have their particular theology - just as we have many learned philosophers or historians. The bigger split is between the Eastern Orthodox and Rome as compared to Catholic and Protestant which came from Christian Jews in the first and second century. Eastern Orthodox still disagree as a result of the Council of Trent that Jesus is both man and God. A 1200 year issue so that 400 years is nothing.

As to taking so long to agree to something this educated nation in America thinks is kindergarten - we forget this world wide church must work out how to meld the one law or dogma into not only every part of the world where folks have different advancement in education, different cultures that are celebrated as part of the spiritual life in local parishes with different ceremonies and values that determine good and bad - from Bush men in Borneo to a Sorbonne educated French elitist, ancestor to the French/Rome crown with folks like us liberal thinking Americans demanding as if the entire world is on the same plain.

We are not the only ones rebelling - many in France have left this voodoo politically run slow to change church, while whole swaths of Germany have recently broken ties with Rome - It is often difficult to see where the politics of the church end and the concern for a spiritual life begins.

Just as today there are strong opinions on gun control - often the views are dictated by where folks live and their understanding of individual liberties - well the same thing in the church - we have had many a crooked or outrageous congressmen - well so does the church among the Curia - I think we have this idea that the church is supposed to only attract perfect clergy that have no human faults - that is like saying Santa Claus brings our gifts - a childhood wish -

As to why those of us who post on Senior Learn and who find religion and or any view of a God important - Even those of us of the same church affiliation would most likely have our own reason and way of practice and understanding and probably even different education in the religion. For me, I can do a pretty good job of sharing history and how the Christian church affected nations, education, history and bound folks together - I can also share my willingness to learn and grow and accept there are conflicting theologies on many subjects from the past and the present.

I do know Hans Kung, a respected theologian and philosopher, who after examining many religions questioned if the Catholic Church was relevant - (He was one of two of the youngest priests theologians that served the Cardinals during Vatican II along with the young man who is pope today) - no fly by night but seriously thinking following Matthew Fox, who left the church for another - bottom line he explains himself in two books - Why I am still a Christian written in 2005 and in 2010 he wrote What I believe.

I've shared I grew up attending Catholic schools - one with the Benedictine's and the other with the Carmelites - both orders require many years of education before ordination - Back in the 1940s and 50s it was 15 years for the Benedictines and 18 years for the Carmelites. In spite of all that I still left the church as a young wife and mother - I continued to read and study but it is only in the past years that I have become closer to the church and see its value. However, I do pick where I go to Mass carefully and choose the Catholic University in Austin because there is a more thinking educated attitude in the Sunday homilies. Most University churches are not a parish church therefore, the local Bishop has no jurisdiction - their head so to speak is the Abbot in their main monastery.

Sorry this is so long but you asked a big question - Part of your very question is uppermost on my mind for a very different reason - there is new theology that suggests a new explanation of God that I want to find out about - My sister was a Dominican and is a recognized philosopher specializing in women philosophers through out history. She has recommended some current women theologians work for me to read - but further, like you, I wonder - I do not understand the Christian Right and how they think as they do - and so my plan is to read -

Why We Believe What We Believe: Uncovering Our Biological Need for Meaning, Spirituality, and Truth by A pioneer of neurotheology, Dr. Andrew Newberg and co-author Mark Waldman the World's leading experts on spirituality and the brain.

Why God Won't Go Away: Brain Science and the Biology of Belief again, by Dr. Andrew Newberg and Eugene D'Aquili, a psychiatrist and anthropologist who studied the effects of religious and mystical experience on the brain and Vince Rause, author of several books, his first Miracle in the Andes, 72 Days in the Mountains and My Long Walk Home.

The Need for Roots: Prelude to a Declaration of Duties Towards Mankind by Simone Weil, a French philosopher, Christian mystic, and social activist.

Myth & Christianity: An Inquiry Into The Possibility Of Religion Without Myth by Karl Theodor Jaspers a German psychiatrist and philosopher who had a strong influence on modern theology and co-author Rudolf Karl Bultmann a German Lutheran theologian and New Testament scholar who was one of the major figures of 20th century biblical studies and a prominent voice in liberal Christianity.

Why not saturate your curiosity by joining me and we can compare notes. I've already ordered, Why God Won't Go Away...

Steph · « **Reply #4237 on:** January 09, 2013, 06:30:05 AM »

During Viet Nam, I had a crisis of conscience and converted to Quaker, I simply could not believe that war is useful in any way.. Sending young men and women to die while old men pontificate in congress.. So I feel remote from most of the discussion.. Simply find predestination as foolishness, but I know that lots believe in it. my theory is you should be able to believe whatever helps you deal with your life.. In my case, the calm anddeliberate distancing of the quakers makes me happy..

dbroomsc · « **Reply #4238 on:** January 09, 2013, 07:31:05 AM »

Thanks BarbStAubrey for posting those two links on free will and predestination. I needed a good laugh. To me these debates are much ado about nothing.

MaryPage · « **Reply #4239 on:** January 09, 2013, 08:44:08 AM »

Marjifay, I have read most, if not all, of Sam Harris's books. I still have some, and some I have passed on to granddaughters.

I so do not hold with most of the old theologies and dogmas. Oh, the fallacy of dogma! But I still remember a book I read eons ago, oh, what WAS the name of it? I think it was back in the nineteen forties and that it was called something like The World, The Flesh, and Father Smith. In it, a Presbyterian pastor was explaining to the Catholic priest why his flock believed in predestination. And he said it was like you were standing on a mountaintop and you could see a train coming around a mountain across the valley from the left, and one coming around that same mountain from the right. And you could SEE that they were going to meet and crash, and you could do absolutely nothing about it. And he said that was how it was with God and us mortals.

Well you know, I've always kind of felt he had something there!

Anyway, Barbara, the basic thing about the new Christianity now prevalent here in the United States (and definitely not in the rest of the world) that makes it differ from the Christianity I was raised in is in the matter of being saved. I have been following closely, or at least DID follow closely, as I'm getting too ancient to care as much now that my main activity seems to be keeping this ancient bag of bones alive (counting out those damn pills!), the rise and now slow decline of the Fundamentalists with fascination since the spring of 1977 when they came into my county Republican Caucus and took it over. Amazing stuff.

And I conclude that I was taught that one day I will have to stand in front of God, barefoot and in my little white nightgown, as it were, and answer for all of my misdeeds. There they would be, right on the bare boards in front of me, and I would not be able to hide. Even every fib I ever told as a child. And I would be told that it was good that I fed the sick, visited the dying, comforted the grieving, and respected my elders; but how about my sins of omission when I let an opportunity to give comfort go by?

But if you have been "Born Again" you are saved. It does not matter how many sins you commit after that; you ARE saved! I cannot imagine this way of things.

I used to monitor the religious channels on TV; watching them for hours on end. I was most startled when I heard Jimmy Swaggart tell an audience of millions that Mother Theresa would not go to Heaven unless she chose Our Lord Jesus Christ as her Saviour!

I jumped up from my chair and yelled at the TV: "You Idiot! She's Married to Him!"

Well, we mortals come up with more useless stuff. IMHO we should be studying on how to end our constant killing of our own species. We should learn how to cooperate and get along.

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