Author Topic: Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online - Pre-discussion (Read 28861 times)

JoanP · « **Reply #80 on:** December 22, 2009, 10:34:12 AM »

The Book Club Online is the oldest book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone. We offer cordial discussions of one book a month, 24/7 and enjoy the company of readers from all over the world. everyone is welcome to join in.

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Kim

by
Rudyard Kipling

You may have read "Kim" as a young
adult, but it's a whole different book
for grown-ups. Join us on January 1
to find out why "Kim" has been beloved
by young and old for over 100 years.

He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform
opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.

SCHEDULE

January 1-8: Chapters 1-4
January 9-15: Chapters 5-8
January 16-22: Chapters 9-12
January 23-29: Chapters 13-15
January 30-31: Overview

DIscussion Leaders:
JoanK & PatH

Online Texts of Kim

Project Gutenberg ~ The Literature Network ~ Read Books Online

Questions Week 1

1. Kim is called "little friend of all the world". What in his circumstances enables him to play this role? What in his character?

2. We see Kim serving two very different masters: Mahbub Ali, the horse-trader and spy, and the unworldly lama. Which do you find more interesting. Which do you think will have more influence on Kim's future (don't answer if you've read the book)? What attracts Kim to each, and each to Kim?

3. The descriptions of India in this section are very vivid. Which scene made the biggest impression on you?

4. There are very few women in Kim's world. What do the few women we see tell us about Kipling's idea of the role of women in India?

5. If you have read some background material, what is the battle for which 8000 British soldiers will be needed?

6. Why do you think this book is so fascinating for children?

JoanP's post:
Babi...you'll going to be googling all over the place! There is so much there that is foreign. Those of you who think this book was written for children - think again! Am struggling with the introductory pages. Those of you who read the book in the past, would you mind sharing with us how old you were? And if you say 12 or 13, then my next question is - did you have footnotes?

Gumtree · « **Reply #81 on:** December 22, 2009, 11:51:34 AM »

JoanP: I didn't read Kim as a child and, like you, question how much a 12 or 13 year old would get from the novel - even with footnotes. It's a very complex novel and needs careful and close reading - I think youngsters would read it in much the same way as they read Shakespeare at that age and simply take from it whatever they understand and read over any incomprehensible parts.

PatH · « **Reply #82 on:** December 22, 2009, 04:44:59 PM »

JoanP, I don't really remember how old I was the first time I read Kim, but I doubt I was older than 12 or 13. Definitely no footnotes. I was very enthusiastic about it, but perhaps it was like reading Macbeth for the murders. I didn't feel bewildered, though.

JoanK · « **Reply #83 on:** December 22, 2009, 09:29:44 PM »

I read it as a child, too, and loved it. I'm sure there was a lot I missed, but I didn't feel that way.

straudetwo · « **Reply #84 on:** December 22, 2009, 11:33:56 PM »

My copy says (only)

This book is copyrighted in all countries which are signatories of the Berne Convention

MACMILLAN AND COMPANY LIMITED
Little Essex Street London W C 2
also Bombay, Calcutta, Madras, Melbourne

THE MACMILLAN COMPANY OF CANADA LIMITED
Toronto

MANUFACTURED IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

There's no other information; no book cover; no footnotes. I started to read the book in the early sixties
but gave up on it when my son was born in 1962. Time was a factor.

PatH, no doubt the book is based on facts and on Kipling's own experiences. But the times - indeed the very geography - were vastly different. The entire subcotinent was Indian. Part was administered by the British and known as British India, but large areas were autonomously governed princely states. There was no Pakistan yet.

Kipling died in 1936, three years before the outbreak of WW II.
Had he lived, what would he have thought and said about the ignominious wothdrawal of British troops in 1947? Indeed about the fall of the Empire?

Kim begins in the city of Lahore, which is in the Punjab region, and became Pakistan. But, paradoxically and thoughtlessly, the dividing line was drawn right through the Punjab region, so that a part of it remained with India.

This is not an easy read - literally; I agree with JoanP.. I have macular degeneration and trouble deciphering the fine print of the passages at the beginning of each chapter, and with italicized text portions. I have a problem also with the quotation marks in the dialogue because they are put at an odd distance from the text.

Footnotes would certainly come in handy to identify which passes and mountains are talked about. Some Indian words are identified in brackets, but it only adds to the busy-ness of the printed page, at least in my copy.

Babi · « **Reply #85 on:** December 23, 2009, 08:57:55 AM »

JOANP, I still remember, after all these years, how Kim learned to tell
the difference between the many different peoples in India by their
headdresses or style of clothing. I found it fascinating, and expect to
do so again. I don't remember how old I was; not a clue. I'm fairly sure
there were no footnotes.
Like JoanK, I probably missed a lot, but since I wasn't aware of it,
it didn't matter. I read it for the adventure!!

TRAUDE, I can recommend the great convenience of having a magnifying glass handy. I grab it whenever I run across small, unreadable print. How else would I know when my coupons expire?

mrssherlock · « **Reply #86 on:** December 23, 2009, 11:58:04 AM »

Jonathan: Thank you so much for mentioning Tournament of Shadows; reading it will add so much to Kim's story. I read the prologue last night and found the writing style to be easy and informative. The authors are married, both have impressive CVs; his include editorial stints at both the Washington Post and the NY Times, and she has won several Emmies and the Peabody. Their journey through the region inspired this book which includes maps, a chronology beginning with Napoleon's invasion of Russia in 1812 and continues until the Russians withdraw from Afghanistan in 1989, an index and extensive notes. I looked up Kim in the index. It is an ironic footnote to history that the infamous "Kim" Philby, British intelligence liaison to Washington to Washington and KGB mole, was born in India and acquired his nickname through this link with Kipling's hero.

elizabeth84 · « **Reply #87 on:** December 23, 2009, 02:01:33 PM »

Jackie, I have ordered a used copy of Tournament of Shadows on the Amazon site and can't wait for it to arrive after reading your description.

mrssherlock · « **Reply #88 on:** December 23, 2009, 05:04:55 PM »

elizabeth84: That's exciting. I hope you like it as well as I do.

Jonathan · « **Reply #89 on:** December 23, 2009, 05:49:59 PM »

For background there is also the book mentioned by Pat: The Great Game, by Peter Hopkirk. Isn't it interesting that the 'great game' has been playing out for more than a hundred years, if not many hundreds of years. Listening to President Obama's West Point address a few weeks ago, I found myself wondering if he had ever read KIM.

It occurred to me that prepping for KIM should include something about the meaning of rivers in our lives. Kim after all is playing several games, helping the lama to find the river of his spiritual quest, as well as helping to save the empire, the Raj. Just consider what the holy Ganges means to so many Hindus. Or the river Jordan for Christians. To be baptized in its waters is the dream of many. For the rest of us there is the Styx which has to be crossed, eventually, for that new beginning.

Can you believe this? I've read an opinion that suggests reading Don Quixote for a parallel to the lama's quest. Can anyone recommend a good book about windmills? Then again, it might be useful to brush up on Freudian concepts relevant to relationships.

Oh, to be twelve again and just go for the adventure.

JoanP · « **Reply #90 on:** December 23, 2009, 07:58:16 PM »

Jonathan, help me up - I'm rolling around on the floor laughing from your last post!
I think I'm going to read Kim for the adventure - as if I were twelve- thirteen at most! Will leave the googling to you, Babi!

Gumtree · « **Reply #91 on:** December 23, 2009, 11:00:43 PM »

Jonathon: The meaning of rivers in our lives - interesting - perhaps we could include the Rubicon which we've all crossed (metaphorically) at some point in our lives - the point of no return where, as Caesar said, 'the die is cast'

I quite see the analogy between Kim/Lama and Don Quixote/Sanchez on their separate quests. The dichotomies between the two sets of protagonists surely have parallels. I'll try to follow that thread up.

serenesheila · « **Reply #92 on:** December 24, 2009, 02:19:37 AM »

I just downloaded a sample of "Tournament of Shadows". Thank you, Jackie, for telling me about it. I do not remember reading "Kim", as a child. However, it seems to me that I saw a movie made from the novel. Wasn't Sabu in it? I do not remember the story.

I also remember feeling fear when Pakistan broke away from India. There was a lot of talk of possible war, when that happened.

Sheila

Babi · « **Reply #93 on:** December 24, 2009, 09:19:59 AM »

I've started reading KIM, and making notes, of course. And researching.
I'm on it, JOAN!
Jonathan, you'll have to excuse me when it comes to Freudian concepts. I am highly sceptical of just about any opinion of his. $:-\$

Frybabe · « **Reply #94 on:** December 25, 2009, 06:08:54 PM »

As long as Jonathan brought up Freud, I'll put in my two cents. I believe his work on defense mechanisms was quite good and useful, however I disagree with most of his other theories (Oedipus complex, hysteria). I remember more about Jung's work on dreams and archetypes than I do Freud's work with dream associations.

Meanwhile, I continue to read through Hopkirks' The Great Game... as a prelude to Kim.

Ella Gibbons · « **Reply #95 on:** December 25, 2009, 06:48:39 PM »

My daughter brought the book to me from our library just in time to read and discover Kim, which I don't believe I have ever read. So I shall just be twelve again (as Jonathan suggested) and go for the adventure!

Babi · « **Reply #96 on:** December 26, 2009, 08:59:28 AM »

It's easy to get lost in the adventure. I read through an entire chapter
without pausing to even think about notes!

mrssherlock · « **Reply #97 on:** December 26, 2009, 11:55:53 AM »

Frybaby: Comparing the Hopkirk and the Meyer/Brysac book I find the first to be almost text-book in style and the second seems to be more narratives of incidents, which appeals to me more. I'll switch back and forth but read more of Meyer/Brysac for the characters, Hopkirk for the facts though Meyer's book has some interesting data; the 25 miles of the Khyber Pass has 92 bridges and 34 tunnels. For a numbers junkie like me those facts are pure gold. To encapsulate Russia's interest, for the preceding four centuries Russia expanded 55 miles per day! Britain had a tremendously long supply chain to maintain for her Indian outpost so Russia's intrusion into Afghanistan had to be thwarted at all costs. Hopkirk states that the gathering of intelligence was not organized, as Kipling depicts it. It will be interesting to see the contrast between history and fiction as we ddprogress. What a gand game we will have as we delve into The Grand Game as Kim played it out.

PatH · « **Reply #98 on:** December 26, 2009, 12:28:27 PM »

I hope nobody feels they have to make a research project of reading Kim. All you need is Kim itself. Anything more will be fun, but not necessary.

mrssherlock · « **Reply #99 on:** December 26, 2009, 08:49:42 PM »

Pat: It is the conjunction of our present involvment in Afghanustan that prompted my interest. Plus those movies such as Gunga Din, The Man who Would Be King, Kim, King of the khyber Rifles (remember Tyrone Power?), plus I read Caravans by James Michener, Far Pavilions. The story of Kim is well able tostand on its on but it is such a rich subject I can't resist digging more deeply.

PatH · « **Reply #100 on:** December 27, 2009, 12:27:31 PM »

Absolutely right, Jackie. I just didn't want anyone to be worried if they didn't want to do extra reading.

bluebird24 · « **Reply #101 on:** December 27, 2009, 07:45:52 PM »

http://ghostwolf.dyndns.org/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/prose/Kim/chapter1.html

Frybabe · « **Reply #102 on:** December 28, 2009, 02:05:12 PM »

Athena posted a paragraph in the classics lounge regarding the funeral of Thomas Hardy. In it was this comment regarding Kipling:

Quote

...The pallbearers included Rudyard Kipling, George Bernard Shaw, James Barrie, John Galsworthy, and A.E. Housman. Shaw wrote: "As we marched, pretending to carry the ashes of whatever part of Hardy was buried in the Abbey, Kipling, who fidgeted continually and was next in front of me, kept changing his step. Every time he did so I nearly fell over him."...

JoanK · « **Reply #103 on:** December 28, 2009, 03:04:10 PM »

BLUEBIRD: HI, great to see you here. Will you be joining us?

FRYBABE: that's hilarious.

PatH · « **Reply #104 on:** December 28, 2009, 05:13:29 PM »

Almost time to get going. The first week of January we'll talk about Chapters 1-4.

JoanK · « **Reply #105 on:** December 28, 2009, 05:24:32 PM »

I'm finding there are many ways to read this book. I tried to reread it a few years ago, feeling that I had to follow every reference. I quickly got bogged down and quit. This time, I am just letting India flow by me, as Kim does, and I'm loving it.

Frybabe · « **Reply #106 on:** December 28, 2009, 07:12:13 PM »

Thanks PatH. I wasn't sure how far to read in. I have chapter one done.

elizabeth84 · « **Reply #107 on:** December 29, 2009, 05:26:16 PM »

Shaw's description of carrying Hardy's remains was hilarious but inspiring too. For my pall bearers I think I would like to have Obama and Mrs. Obama, Hilary and Mr. Hilary, Carter and Mrs Carter and Mr. and Mrs. Gates. I hope they all read this.

fairanna · « **Reply #108 on:** December 29, 2009, 06:06:07 PM »

OK I have checked in to see where to start...in the interim I enjoyed reading two books I have never heard of But the price was right and ..Excuse me one was Nicholas Sparks "The Last Song" which I enjoyed ...Thomas Kincade "A New Leaf" and am reading "Twisted Creek" by Jodi Thomas. Sparks is Sparks and I know when I read one I wont have nightmares OR daymares but just be glad it was a story that pleased me. I swear I read another but I must have put it away already. I have phases when I read all non fiction, all mystery, all history and all books that are pleasant reading and do not challenge me to decide anything ...It would seem KIm may make a bit of difference if only because we will be discussing it ..

SO, tonight I will open Kim and see if I recall reading it in the past...I keep feeling I have but will uncover the truth when I open the first page.

Whether I also read some of the suggestions I will have to see. BUT I am glad to have them ..

HAVE A HAPPY NEW YEAR ISnt it wonderful we get a new year to enjoy...It doesnt mean the past year was bad but most have things they can wish never happened, words they wish they had never said, memories that will be here regardless of how many New Years come and go....another chance to try and keep our promises to others and to ourselves...but like a new pair of shoes you have to try them on and see if they fit...SO I HOPE FOR ALL THEY FIT AND ARE COMFORTABLE ...anna

JoanK · « **Reply #109 on:** December 29, 2009, 09:34:27 PM »

SO I HOPE FOR ALL THEY FIT AND ARE COMFORTABLE ...anna

A wonderful wish. I echo it!

Babi · « **Reply #110 on:** December 30, 2009, 08:57:39 AM »

The New Year as a comfortable pair of shoes...that's a novel and
entertaining thought, ANNA. No question but that most of us are at an
age where that seems a very acceptable approach.

JoanK · « **Reply #111 on:** December 30, 2009, 02:20:34 PM »

Some of you asked to see the first weeks questions early, so you can have them in mind while reading. Your request is our command: they are now in the heading. Please don't post discussions of them til we move to our permanent site January first.

Notice the first "week" has an extra day, to accomedate anyone with company (or a hangover

) on New Years.

mrssherlock · « **Reply #112 on:** December 31, 2009, 01:34:55 PM »

Tomorrow we start our journey along the path to the Great Game. I'm rarin' to go!

JoanK · « **Reply #113 on:** December 31, 2009, 03:15:51 PM »

Me too! I don't get to the computer til noon (3PM EST) but PatH will be here early.

There was another episode of "The Story of India" on PBS last night. The narrative is incomprehensible (to me, anyhow) but the pictures!! Just like "Kim" with teeming people of all kinds and sorts everywhere.

Yesterday, they showed people making the traditional bronze statue of Shiva, by the same methods that have been used for thousands of years. Fascinating.

salan · « **Reply #114 on:** December 31, 2009, 07:13:43 PM »

mrssherlock and Joan--I'm also ready to get started on "Kim". I have read chapters 1-3 and will read chapter 4 tonight. I am anxious to read what everyone has to say about the first chapters.
Sally

Pat · « **Reply #115 on:** December 31, 2009, 07:19:32 PM »

The "journey along the path to the Great Game" begins here:

Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online

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Author Topic: Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online - Pre-discussion (Read 28861 times)