---CLASSROOM: Latin 103b: Anderson
jane
December 29, 2006 - 08:05 am
Welcome to Latin 103b
Penelope Jens Jerichau 1816-1883
Lessons & Assignments
Send homework to gvinesc@bellsouth.net
Roman copy of head of Penelope, 5 BC, submitted by Cooki
Ullman Henry I: Vocabularies by Unit:
Vocabulary Unit I ||
Vocabulary Unit II ||
Vocabulary Unit III ||
Vocabulary Unit IV ||
Vocabulary Unit V-Ceres||
Dr. Grote's Study Guide to Wheelock's Latin ||
Bennett's New Latin Grammar ||
A Glossary of Latin terms
Vocabulary / Learning GAMES
Perseus: the Myth Animated!
Odysseus and his faithful dog
Instructor: Ginny
Access to this discussion: cook1, CubFan (Mary) EllH, fdobbs (Fran) , formerfarmer, GeneJ, Hella, JCollins, JIW, Ken1, marni0308, mouseketeer (Nancy)
Penelope and Telemechus at her loom
Odysseus bends the bow
|
The last day of class is this Friday, May 4
Ginny
January 1, 2007 - 08:47 am
Evander Welcomes Aeneas
by Pietro da Cortona
Et in Arcadia Ego! A perfect way to begin our new year here on the 3rd! Aeneas has made it, he's landed IN Italy and ego is one of our pronoun lessons as well as a very famous phrase found in, among other things, the book and movie Brideshead Revisited. In fact it's the first line in both the book and the movie.
Here's a bit on Et In Arcadia Ego, several different background theories, (always a red flag!), depending on the source you use.
It's supposedly from Vergil's Aeneid, but it's somewhat difficult to pin down the actual Book or lines, *see below for Arcadia in Vergil attributed to the Eclogues!*
.
"ET IN ARCADIA EGO "
or "The Arcadian shepherds", by Nicolas Poussin, in which as you can see one person points to the engraving on the stone as Et in Arcadia Ego.
Here's a wonderful explanation of what that all means, from Classical Arcadia, Arcadian Ideal and the meaning of the "Et in Arcadia Ego"
Arcadia: A region of ancient Greece in the central Peloponnesus. Its inhabitants, somewhat isolated from the rest of the world, proverbially lived a simple, pastoral life. Any region offering rural simplicity and contentment. The term Arcadia is used to refer to an imaginary and paradisal place
Parallel to the literary vogue of pastoral there existed in this period a rich pictorial tradition, paintings and prints representing shepherds and shepherdesses in a bucolic or idyllic setting of forests and hills. In the seventeenth century, the French painter Nicolas Poussin (1594-1665) used this pictorial tradition to paint one of his most famous canvasses, known as "The Arcadian shepherds" or as "ET IN ARCADIA EGO" (1647). This painting represents four Arcadians, in a meditative and melancholy mood, symmetrically arranged on either side of a tomb. One of the shepherds kneels on the ground and reads the inscription on the tomb: ET IN ARCADIA EGO, which can be translated either as "And I [= death] too (am) in Arcadia" or as "I [= the person in the tomb] also used to live in Arcadia." The second shepherd seems to discuss the inscription with a lovely girl standing near him. The third shepherd stands pensively aside.
From Poussin's painting, Arcadia now takes on the tinges of a melancholic contemplation about death itself, about the fact that our happiness in this world is very transitory and evanescent. Even when we feel that we have discovered a place where peace and gentle joy reign, we must remember that it will end, and that all will vanish.
There's more here
Arcadia So now the next time you're at a party and you hear those words, you'll have read about the very happening in Latin! What fun! Welcome back, we'll begin on the 3rd with a review!
GeneJ
January 1, 2007 - 09:34 am
Good day. Reviews are always nice.
Gene
I couldn't resist jumping the gun. Happy New Year to all.
cook1
January 1, 2007 - 06:18 pm
A prosperous new year to all!
JIW
January 2, 2007 - 04:03 pm
A Great New Year to all of you.
I am so glad we will begin with a review. My mind has turned to mush over the break. I look forward to getting back into the rigors of Latin.
jane
January 2, 2007 - 05:50 pm
To make the heading here shorter, the games have been removed and can be found by clicking the games link in the header:
Vocabulary / Learning GAMES
You can then click the links for the games you want.
Have a great new term in Latin!
jane
GeneJ
January 3, 2007 - 06:26 am
Jane:
Good move on the header changes. It was becoming a bit cluttered. A bit of feedback: --- I tried the Perseus in the header and it seemed to work. I only tried one or two names. However, when I tried the Future Tense it did not work at all.
Gene
Ginny
January 3, 2007 - 06:34 am
Welcome back!
And a bright and frosty good morning to you all here back on our first day of class in 2007!! Even though our minds may have turned to mush over the holidays, I think you'll be pleasantly surprised at how much you have retained! (Here is the main reason my own mind has turned to mush, our one and only grandson, John Williams Anderson, Is that or is that NOT a cute baby? But I promise not to drown you in baby photos even tho starting Monday he'll be right here at my elbow helping!
We'll start with a review, just to get ourselves on solid ground and then move confidently into the next chapter which as you can see is on Evander and Aeneas!
Oh boy oh boy and I see Fabius Maximus looming on the horizon, oh boy!! We're about to enter the famous realm that we've sough so long, the heroes and giants of the ancient Roman world!
You'll want to read carefully my post above on Et in Arcadia Ego for its literary references and it's origin, I am excited to be reading about this in Latin.
As we progress and the vocabularies get more and more extensive, it is natural for some of the more obscure words or those which simply do not seem to make a connection to US fall by the wayside and have to be "refreshed" by looking in the back of the book. The dreaded LBB syndrome.
I am open to suggestions for mastering the new and old vocabulary words. Each person learns differently but one thing we ALL do HAVE to do, and it's something Latinists have been doing for centuries, since the entire language is on a formula or awesome rational pattern, to MEMORIZE one example of EACH conjugation, and each declension as a....base. If you then know the endings of the tenses and the tense signs and how to translate them, you can do anything. If you can do this, you can work with almost any new verb. Doing this will help you immeasurably and will assist you in feeling you have control of the language, even IF you don't know every word (and who on earth does?). It will add to your enjoyment and cut down on the time it takes you.
What to do when you're reading and you encounter a word that simply does NOT ring a bell?
Try NOT to reach for the back of the book first!
Study the new word to see if perhaps there is an English word it seems to suggest (a derivative coming from it). Try THAT word in the story.
Study the ENDING of the word, what case or person and number it is in? What part of the sentence (remember how we divided up the clauses and phrases once?) does it go with? Do NOT hop around like a butterfly but plow straight through the sentence, notice the endings, plow ahead forthrightly. That's the way the language is written, and it's meant to be read aloud in a periodic style. I realize that Ullman Henry are not ancients but they try to approach it with their style, so don't fail to use these tricks to help yourself.
Make up a meaning and keep reading in context. Sometimes the meaning of the word will suggest itself TO you, sort of a whisper from 2000 years ago, a magic thing when it happens.
The best suggestion to master, divide and conquer any vocabulary word, and one centuries old, however, is first to have picked ONE example of each conjugation or declension prior to the new work, a word you particularly like, and memorized it: there's no getting around the M word for those examples.
So far you've had all 4 conjugations so in your own memory bank you want 4 examples of those words. You've had three declensions so you want one example of those too.
The verb endings are the same for all conjugations (person, number and tense) so you're really only talking about STEMS and BASES, reduce it, divide it and conquer it!
However you memorize best, by writing it out, by recording it and listening to it over and over (and if you need help in making a recording, let us know) or...well how DO you memorize best? Studies have shown that chanting at our age develops all KINDS of new synapses (at any age, actually) and what better chance TO chant than Latin? It's win/ win situation!
To start us off tho, here's some more Latin which I find fascinating, it was submitted by our own Gene, last year, and even tho I can't make out the words (maybe YOU recognize the song?) I do hear Domine which is a noun of direct address, but look at this and feel safe: Got Ice? Love it!
This thing takes an eternity to load. You advance the screen by clicking directly on it. But it's worth every cup of coffee it takes to see it, incredible. Turn up the speakers as well. If you can't see it, post in the Problems area for assistance.
As Jane has noted we've moved off the extremely helpful Games and vocabulary drills to another page, see colorful link in the heading, they will be a marvelous help in review: your choice of what you need most to review!
Let's start with our own foundations, Let's work with the vocabulary on page 173, and 171 (I can see here some 3rd conjugation, sum, one 2nd Conjugation, and so going back to paragraph 210 on page 161, the unit review we can pick up some First Conjugation verbs, all we need is an example of each. Let's work on these latest verbs, you're all VERY good with verbs and let's try some synopses, JUST to get back in the swing,
See L&A!!
I'll go first:
Be sure for our Class Work that you do write out all 4 principal parts.
Class Work: We'll start with a review of some of the newer verbs on page 173 and 171, and go back to the Unit Review for a newer First and Fourth Conjugation verb choice as well.
Using only these verbs, let's work on synopses: (be sure you have written out all 4 principal parts in your own post first. I am finding those who do that seem to have better luck).
produco, producere, produxi, productus: lead out
retineo, retinēre, retinui, retentus, a, um: retain hold back, keep
absum, abesse, afui, afuturus, a, um: be away be absent
amitto, amittere, amīsi, amissus, a, um: lose, let go
incipio, incipere, incēpi, inceptus, a, um: begin
convoco (1) call together
audio , audīre, audivi, auditus, a,um: hear
traho, trahere, traxi, tractus, a,um: drag, draw
convenio, convenīre, convēni, conventus, a,um: meet
See L&A: I'll go first:
Give a synopsis in the Active and Passive (if possible for that verb) in the third person plural of..... lose_____________________ and translate.
Welcome back!
A synopsis with translation and 4 principal Parts of lose in the 3rd person plural________________________________
Ginny
January 3, 2007 - 06:36 am
Gene when you talk about the Peresus link you mean the blonde guy up there blinking? In Edit: I see what you mean by the Future Tense, I'll remove it now, thanks!
GeneJ
January 3, 2007 - 06:53 am
Ginny:
Yes, the blonde guy. Though my spelling could stand an improvement.
Gene
JIW
January 3, 2007 - 07:43 am
Ginny: Yes indeed, that is one beautiful baby. Congratulations!
Lose: amitto, amittere, amissi, amissus -a -um
3rd pers. pl.
Active
Present: amittunt
Impf: amittebant
Fut: amittent
Perf: amisserunt super job on this one, one s in the Perfect Stem as you show below, mitto is tricky, thank you about little John. ahaha
Plup: amiserant
Fut. Perf: amiserint
Passive
Pres: amittuntur
Imp: amittebantur
Fut: amittentur
Perf: amissi sunt
Plup: amissi erant
Fut. Perf: amissi erunt
Next: 2nd pers. sing. hold back; active and passive
fdobbs
January 3, 2007 - 08:01 am
amitto-ere-amisi-amissus-lose, let up
Active:
Present: amittunt--they are losing
Imperfect: amittebant--they were losing
Future: amittent--they will lose
Perfect: amiserunt--they have lost
P.Perfect:amiserant--they had lost
Future Perfect:amiserint--they will have lost
Passive
Present: amittuntur--they are being lost
Imperfect: amittebantur--they were being lost
Future: amittentur--they will be lost
Perfect: amissi sunt--they have been lost
Past Perfect: amissi erant--they had been lost
Future Perfect: amissi erunt--they will have been lost
next: retineo--2ndpers.pl.
GeneJ
January 3, 2007 - 08:45 am
Lose: amittō, amittere, amissī, amissus -a -um
3rd pers. pl.
Active
Present: amittunt
Imperfect: amittēbant
Future: amittent
Perfect: amissērunt
Plu Perfect: amisserant
Future Perfect: amisserint
Passive
Present: amittuntur
Imperfect: amittēbantur
Future: amittentur
Perfect: amissī sunt
PluPerfect: amissī erant
Future Perfect: amissī erunt
I winged it so I'm going to have some messed up. I choose not to look at what has been done in previous posts. Wow, the cobwebs are really there. Someone earlier commented that their brains were mush. Ditto for me.
Upon editing I noticed that I did not add in a translation. I'll do that on my next synopsis.
I think it's wonderful if you did not look at anything, remember amitto, when in the 3rd principal part ONLY has one s, tricky little devil. so it's amiserint, amiserant and amiserērunt for the Perfect Active.
formerfarmer
January 3, 2007 - 08:45 am
retineo, retinere, retinui, retentus, a ,um
present; retinetis ---you ,pl. keep
imperfect; retinebatis-----you pl. used to keep
future; retinebitis-----you pl. will keep
perfect; retinuistis----you pl. have kept
pluperfect, retinueratis---you pl. had kept
future perfect, retinueritis----you pl. shall have kept
present passive, retinemini----you pl. are kept
imperfect passive; retinebamini---you pl. were being kept
future passive, retinebimini-------you pl. will be kept
perfect passive; retinui estis-----you were carried
pluerfect passive, retinui eratis--you pl. had been carried
future perfect passive, you pl. shall have been carried
next; lead out 1st person pl.
cook1
January 3, 2007 - 09:02 am
Ginny...Thank you for posting a picture of your new grandson...he is a sweetheart...I love his santa outfit.
Also, I tried to visit GOT ICE but only got gibberish.
mouseketeer
January 3, 2007 - 09:22 am
Hi everyone! I am here but the power was turned off this morning
to have a tree cut down. I am now going for an appointment, so will
see you tomorrow.
Nancy
marni0308
January 3, 2007 - 09:26 am
Happy New Year, everyone! Ginny, that is the sweetest baby!!!!!! More pictures, please. Gene, I just love the music with the ice pictures.
My brain is not only mush - it is absolutely LIQUID! Aaaaggghhhh. Definitely review needed here. Holy cow. I will have to check this in the text, I'm sure.
lead out - 1st person pl. - prōdūcō, prōdūcere, prōdūxī, prōductus
Active
Present: prōdūcimus - we lead out
Imperfect: prōdūcēbāmus - we were leading out
Future: prōdūcēmus - we will lead out
Perfect: prōdūximus - we led out
Past Perfect: prōdūxerāmus - we had led out
Future Perfect: prōductimus produxerimus- we will have led out
Passive
Present: prōdūcimur - we are led out
Imperfect: prōdūcēbāmur - we were being led out
Future: prōdūcēmur - we will/shall be led out
Perfect: prōductī sumus - we were led out
Past Perfect: prōductī erāmus - we had been led out
Future Perfect: prōductī erimus - we will/shall have been led out
Next: meet, 2nd person singular
cook1
January 3, 2007 - 09:29 am
Produco, producere, producx, produxi productus = lead out
Active:
Present tense = producēmus We lead out produco is third: producimus
Imperfect tense = producēbāmus - We were leading out.
Future tense = producēbimus no bi in the third: producēmus We shall lead out
Perfect tense = producimus produximus We have led out.
Plup = produc er āmus produxeramusWe had led out.
Future perfect = produc er imus produx (take the third principal part and the perfect stem: PRODUXerimus We will have led out.
Passive
Present tense = producēmur = We are led out. producimur
Imperfect tense = producē bā mur We were being led out.
Furture = producē no bi bimur We will be led out.
Perfect = productī sumus We have been led out.
Plup = productī erā mus We had been led out.
Future perfect = productī erimus We will have been led out.
marni0308
January 3, 2007 - 09:32 am
That was so interesting about the pastoral and Arcadia. I wish I had known more about that earlier. We read some about the pastoral life in Don Quixote - a number of the characters went off to live in the mountains dressed like shepherds, etc. AND - guess what - I just read in my latest novel (Six Frigates) the word "Arcadia" - used as Ginny explained. I never would have know what it meant!!! What perfect timing!!! I think I would have thought it was Acadia - something to do with.....Longfellow and the French kicked out of Canada? Does that sound right?
Ginny
January 3, 2007 - 09:40 am
Thank you all for the nice notes on Little John. Marni, isn't it amazing once you learn something how it seems all around, great timing?
I don't know what Acadia is!
marni0308
January 3, 2007 - 09:44 am
I had to look up Acadia. I found something in Wikipedia:
"Acadia (in French Acadie) was the name given by the French to a colonial territory in northeastern North America that included parts of eastern Quebec, the Maritime provinces, and modern-day New England, stretching as far south as Philadelphia. The actual specification by the French government for the territory refers to lands bordering the Atlantic coast, roughly between the 40th and 46th parallels. Later, the territory was divided into the British colonies which were to become Canadian provinces and American states."
Yes, I think I recall that the Acadians (Evangeline?) were French kicked out of Acadia when the British conquered the territory. The Acadians moved south to what is now Louisiana and they are called Cajuns today.
Ginny
January 3, 2007 - 02:06 pm
This is a LOVELY beginning and tomorrow we're going to have a fun time, I've thought up a new and exciting fun and hopefully EASY game!!
Cajuns! Who knew? The things you learn in Latin class!
Listen now the object is to EASE on down the road, remember that song? Ease on down, ease on down the road..... well I love verbs so I thought what better, what better way to review than to ease on down the road and then the homework started rolling in and HOLY SMOKE!!
Take 2 days or even 3 to do that, take your TIME, the object is to EASE on down. Do two today and two tomorrow and what not, EASE on down, good heavens, I got carried away there!!
EASE on down not get bulldozered by a truck! hahaha
Yes but what I am seeing is wonderful, so tomorrow we'll relax a bit!
JCollins
January 3, 2007 - 03:28 pm
Ginny--Congratulations on little John --I will be having little Teddy, my latest grandson soon--Happy New Year everyone. Well here goes -ready or not -Jack
Next: meet, 2nd person singular
convenio, convenīre, convēni, conventus, a,um: meet
present-convenis-you meet
imperfect-conveniebas-you were meeting
future-convenies-you will meet
perfect-convenisti-you met
past perfect-conveneras-you had met
future perfect-conveneris-you will have met
Passive
present-conveniris-you are met
imperfect-conveniebaris-you were being met
future-convenieris-you will be met
perfect-conventus es-you were met
past perfect-conventus eras-you had been met
future perfect-conventus eris--you will have been met
next--3rd person plural of incipio
Ginny
January 3, 2007 - 03:32 pm
Cook, I'm having some problems with Got Ice, too, we tested it out, I'll report this, it's extraordinary and of course has a Latin theme.
JIW
January 3, 2007 - 05:08 pm
For those who do not see the Foxtrot comic strip, you might enjoy this.
http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ft/2006/ft061231.gif The little boy, Jason, is a genius who delights in thinking of new ways to torment his older siblings.
Ken1
January 3, 2007 - 09:49 pm
Great photo of little John (Conjures up visions of Robin Hood and his Merry Band.)!
3rd person plural of incipio.
incipio, incipere, incēpi, inceptus, a, um: begin
Active.
Present incipiunt - they begin
Imperfect incipiēbant - they were begining
Future incipient - they will begin
Perfect - incēpērunt - they began
Pluperfect - incēperant - they had begun
Future Perfect - incēperint - they will have begun
Passive
Present - incipiuntur - they are begun
Imperfect - incipiēbantur - they were being begun
Future - incipientur - they will be begun
Perfect - incēptī sunt - they have been begun
Pluperfect - incēptī erant - they had been begun
Future Perfect - incēptī erunt - they will have been begun
I am another mush brain. The translations seem awkward.
Next: audio - second person plural
Ginny
January 4, 2007 - 03:19 am
JIW!!!! THANK you for that, it's absolutely perfect, do put it in the Classical Bulletin Board area!!
hahaa Ken, thank you on Little John and Robin Hood ahhaaa, and begin does sound a little odd there, but yours are also all correct!
Can you all read JIW's strip? It's just perfect for us! I have enlarged it so I can see it on my own computer.
Are you old enough to remember when they read the comic strips on television? Just in case you can't see this, reading from left to right the frames say:
The little guy starts out:
ERGO IPSO FACTO
And she says:
What are you doing?
And he says:
Speaking Latin. My New year's Resolution is to cement my reputation as a genius, and nothing cries out "intellectual" more than speaking Latin.
Ad hoc
E Pluribus Unum
Carpe Diem
A Priori
Quod Erat Demonstrandum
She says: Will you knock it off and get out of my room?
And in the last frame his friend says, "You told
me your Resolution was to annoy us all in new ways..."
And the little guy says, "did I say that? Mea culpa."
Hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa LOVE it! And so right for our beginning here, as it combines ALL the elements hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa I'm annoying you and you look intellectual, works for me! hahahaa
(You might want to type one of those mottoes into google and bring it here, one of them is in your home, actually, if you live in the USA).
But a bright good morning as we EASE on into our Latin. It really has gotten to the point in 2006 that interest in Latin is so high that new books appear daily but seem to be full of nothing but mottoes, how to amaze your friends, throw in a few mottoes and sayings and VOILA you are intellectual, because nobody in 2006 can learn this fascinating and difficult language, but you know better! Yes and you have proved that dilligently. I have a feeling this is our year! I really do.
I am also getting some WONDERFUL responses and ideas from this class on where we want to go and how, thank you all very much.
Essentially Latin is perfect, logical and much like geometry: it acts on formulas, especially when you get into the ancient authors, you'll be gap mouthed in admiration. When you work on formulas, in anything, and you are a train to use a metaphor, going gaily down the track, if you get off the track initially, you end up in another city than the one you started in. You may end up in Mistakeville. It's that way in everything, math, and even typing! As I started out typing this my fingers got off one notch snd ot ;pppled ;ple tjos/
And that's somewhat what happens with Latin as well, that is, if it consists of a combination of STEM + TENSE SIGN (like BA and BI and V , etc.) and endings, (like s, t, mus, tis, nt) and you start with the wrong stem, then everything else that follows of course will LOOK wrong, even tho you might be doing it nicely
and perfectly correctly If you start with the wrong stem your... er.... branches? Or flowers? May be the wrong color (this is what passes for intelligence at 4 am) ahahhaa
The two biggest bug a boos there ARE are the I: where to put it, when to put it, (is it iēbam or ēbam?)
And the BI of the Future Tense. (do I use a BI with this verb or not?)
The BI essentially drops out after the first two conjugations? And turns into long ē, and so not recognizing which conjugation it is will cause everything to LOOK wrong, but be following the pattern.
So it's patterns we're after, and verbs to hone in on, a new way (for some of us) to look at an old language, but a good one. Some of you are telling me in the hoomework you never thought of looking at the verbs, so this is excellent and we'll extend that homework assignment thru the weekend, so you can take ONE example per day and work on it slowly.
IF you have already turned in your own homework , then do the STAB (in lieu of stabbing me at this point you may stab the book!) hahahaa
Just STAB at random any verb in the Latin to English dictionary in the back of the book and do the Class Work assignment with it, if you like, for more practice and try NOT to look at anything. OR not! Your choice.
Today in class we'll STAB vicariously at some more and have some fun. See L&A See heading, SEE how far you have come in such a short time and feel REALLY good about it. THIS is our year, I feel it, and this is YOUR time to work on what you'd like to review, so let's keep going!
After all, a day without Latin is like a day without sunshine, see L&A!!
I'll go first! I love STABBING.
Ī have stabbed interficio, interficere, interfēci, interfectus: kill
OK.
The THREE questions I have for the next person on this verb are:
What conjugation is it?
Will it use BI in the Future?
Tell us the Perfect Stem?
That's IT, play as many times IN CLASS as you like. If you make a mistake, good. We'll all learn!!!
formerfarmer
January 4, 2007 - 07:58 am
Interficio- interficere-interfeci- interfectus
Ask the following Three Questions of the next person:
1. What Conjugation is it? --------3d IO
2. Will it use BI in the Future?-- No
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem-----------------------interfice
Perfect Stem
Participial Stem
Third person singular of the Future Tense
next:incito-incitare-incitavi- incitatus
marni0308
January 4, 2007 - 10:23 am
incitō-incitāre-incitāvī- incitātus - urge on, arouse
1. What Conjugation is it? - 1st
2. Will it use BI in the Future? - Yes
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem:
Perfect Stem: incitāv
Participial Stem:
Second person singular of the Perfect Tense: incitāvistī
Next: committō, committere, commīsī, commissus - join together, commit, entrust
1. What Conjugation is it? -
2. Will it use BI in the Future? -
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem:
Perfect Stem:
Participial Stem:
Third person plural of the Imperfect Tense:
GeneJ
January 4, 2007 - 11:51 am
Next: committō, committere, commīsī, commissus - join together, commit, entrust
1. What Conjugation is it? - 3rd
2. Will it use BI in the Future? - No
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem: committe
Perfect Stem:
Participial Stem:
Third person plural of the Imperfect Tense: committēbant
Next: ērumpo, -ere, ērūpī, ēruptus
1. What Conjugation is it?
2. Will it use BI in the Future? -
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem:
Perfect Stem:
Participial Stem:
Third person plural of the Imperfect Tense:
cook1
January 4, 2007 - 12:48 pm
ērumpo, -ere, ērūpī, ēruptus - burst forth
1. What Conjugation is it? Third Conjugation
2. Will it use BI in the Future? - No
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem:
Perfect Stem: ērūp
Participial Stem:
Third person plural of the Imperfect Tense:
Next: noceō, nocēre, nocuī, nocitūrus learn; perf. have learned, know
1. What Conjugation is it?
2. Will it use BI in the Future?
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem
Perfect Stem
Participial Stem
Third person singular of the Future Tense
Ginny
January 4, 2007 - 02:23 pm
Oh good job!! Well done and I don't see ANYTHING to correct at all, well done!! I think we've got it here, wonderful use of class time today!
Does anybody have a question??
GeneJ
January 4, 2007 - 04:12 pm
Next: noceō, nocēre, nocuī, nocitūrus learn; perf. have learned, know
1. What Conjugation is it? Second
2. Will it use BI in the Future? Yes
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem
Perfect Stem nocu
Participial Stem
Third person singular of the Future Tense ---- nocēbit
Next: expediō, -īre, -īvī, -ītus set free
1. What Conjugation is it?
2. Will it use BI in the Future?
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem
Perfect Stem
Participial Stem
Third person singular of the Future Tense
GeneJ
January 4, 2007 - 04:20 pm
Ginny:
A review of how the Third Conjugation forms the Future Tense would be welcome. And also any tips or insight to the process.
Gene
JCollins
January 4, 2007 - 05:02 pm
Next: expediō, -īre, -īvī, -ītus set free
1. What Conjugation is it? -4th
2. Will it use BI in the Future? -no
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem-expedi
Perfect Stem
Participial Stem
Third person singular of the Future Tense -expediet
Next: produco--producere--produxi--productus--lead out
1. What Conjugation is it? -
2. Will it use BI in the Future?
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem-
Perfect Stem
Participial Stem
Second person plural of the imperfect Tense -
cook1
January 4, 2007 - 05:45 pm
produco--producere--produxi--productus--lead out
1. What Conjugation is it? - 3rd. conjugation
2. Will it use BI in the Future? No
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem-
Perfect Stem - produx
Participial Stem
Second person plural of the imperfect Tense -
Next: remaneō, ēre, remānsī, remānsūrus - remain
1. What Conjugation is it?
2. Will it use BI in the Future?
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem
Perfect Stem
Participial Stem
3rd person plural of the future Tense?
Ken1
January 4, 2007 - 10:15 pm
remaneō, ēre, remānsī, remānsūrus - remain
1. What Conjugation is it? - second conjugation
2. Will it use BI in the Future? - yes
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem - remanē
Perfect Stem
Participial Stem
3rd person plural of the future Tense? - remanēbunt
Next: capiō, capere, cēpī, captus - seize, to take
1. What Conjugation is it?
2. Will it use BI in the Future?
3 Give the: (choose one):
Present Stem
Perfect Stem
Participial Stem
First person plural for Pluperfect
Ginny
January 5, 2007 - 05:48 am
Lovely, excellent, this is really lovely work and what we've done is to move a step upward, kind of like a roller coaster, now, you know as the old wooden ones would, when they would start up the hill, sort of jerk?
Well that was our JERK forward into verbs, I had INTENDED it to be a nice easy and fun exercise, as you know, but I believe I myself have gotten a bit of whiplash from our first jerk.
I do have to say this, tho. Those of you who did it all at once, I really can see in the work some great things. I can see some great understanding and where the roller coaster got off the track I can see why! That is amazing to me. Very useful exercise! Stressful but useful diagnostically.
In the old days you'd conjugate your little heart out. You'd write out, not synopses, but the entire conjugation over and over and over, and I am beginning to see why, it sort of reveals its patterns. I actually, tho I do apologize for it, loved that assignment and tho it yanked all of our necks around, we're really in a very strong position now, or so it appears from the homework.
If you are just coming in from your long winter's nap (I wish I had HAD a long winter's nap) and saying holy smoke, just do ONE a day, it's actually better TO do one? So if your roller coaster goes OFF you won't have a lot of incorrect work.
If you consider the study of Latin like a roller coaster, you're nearing the tallest part of the trip from whence it's pretty much all downhill. Your VERBS are the key. If you can do the verbs you can do anything else (and you don't even need Captain Jack Sparrow and his map to find the key to Latin: you're holding it, in the top of the L&A? That chart? That's IT?) Everything else stems from the verbs. (That's an unintentional metaphor? Hahahaa)
I think you did really well. (I had not intended it to BE a jerk but you've compensated brilliantly). I am thinking also that we can hone in during the weekend ON verbs and then take up nouns in the next week.
I see Evander coming over the hill, and Fabius Maximus right behind him. We're retelling the history of the founding of Rome, this is the good stuff. Et in Arcadio Nos on Monday so over the weekend we'll continue our review of all verbs in class, and we'll add to them the three new ones (only three!) in the Evander chapter:
dimitto, dimittere, dimīsi, dimissus, a, um: let go, send away (this is nothing but mitto and de on the front crushed into it: mitto: send, de: away from) Note the 3rd Principal Part has only ONE s?
dubito (1) doubt, hesitate
scio, scīre, scivi, scitus, a, um: know
Let's add these other two conjugations:
retineo, retinēre, retinui, retentus, a, um: retain
incipio, incipere, incēpi, inceptus, a,um: begin
A request has been made to focus on the Future Tense, a review and we'll do that in the L&A. For today we'll make our challenge a bit tougher.
See L&A!
I'll go first:
Pose a challenge to the next person, using two of the verbs above in the Future Tense ONLY today:
You choose the verbs, and you choose the person:
EX: hesitate and begin:
3rd Plural Future Active OR (not both) Passive: (2 answers)
ANSWER:
dubitabunt/ incipient
Let's fool around with the Future in the 4 Conjugations today!
Ask questions!!
I'll go first:
The Future 3rd person singular PASSIVE of desire and retain______________ ______________
cook1
January 5, 2007 - 08:59 am
The Future 3rd person singular PASSIVE of desire and retain
cupi ētur / retinēbitur
Next: The future 2nd. Person , pl., passive of retain and doubt.
cook1
January 5, 2007 - 09:02 am
Ginny...Why didn't they use De, instead of Di in dimitto, dimittere, dimīsi, dimissus, a, um: let go, send away (this is nothing but mitto and de on the front crushed into it:
This is an excellent question and the answer that follows it by JIW is likewise excellent, good work.
JIW
January 5, 2007 - 10:35 am
Cook,
Interesting question. I checked the dictionary and found that there is another word demitto. Means to drop, let fall, sink, etc.
Yes and dimitto has tons of meanings, good answer.
JIW
January 5, 2007 - 10:39 am
The future 2nd. Person , pl., passive of retain and doubt.
retinebimini/dubitabimini
Next: Future 3rd pers sg, active of desire and begin
marni0308
January 5, 2007 - 10:42 am
future 2nd. Person , pl., passive of retain and doubt
cupiēminī, This may be the famous Curse o Cupio at work? hahah retinebimini dubitābiminī
Uh, oh!
QUESTION: Our textbook lists cupio as a 3rd IO verb with cupere as the infinitive. Above it is shown as a 4th conjugation verb cupīre. Which should it be?
What the book says! Third IO it is! Good on you, sharp eyes!!
I knew the day would come when the Latin students would exceed the teacher (something every Latin teacher devoutely wishes for so we can argue points: pil pul) but I did not realize it would come so soon!
THAT is a mistake. It was not a typo, it was a mistake. There are two kinds of mistakes in Latin and that was a bad one! Cupio is half 4th (you can see that in the ivi and the itus) and half 3rd IO (ere) and when you slap sloppily at Latin it slaps back.
Love it!
Super job~!
Next: begin and retain, 1st person plural Active, Future
marni0308
January 5, 2007 - 10:45 am
Oh, rats. I got so hung up on the verb form above that I chose the wrong verb for retain!
cook1
January 5, 2007 - 12:41 pm
#40 Thank you JIW for your help. So, "de" is sending down and "di" is sending away...could be any
direction or place.
begin and retain, 1st person plural Active, Future
retinēbimus / incipēmus
incip IO will always have that I so it's incipiēmus Next: The future, 4th
3rd unless the Curse o Cupio has introduced a new person person, pl., passive of let go and doubt.
formerfarmer
January 5, 2007 - 02:28 pm
The future, 4th person, pl., passive of let go and doubt
I hope that 4th person is a typo. I'll try 3d person
dimittentur / dubitabuntur
next: retain and hesitate 1st person singular passive
Ginny
January 5, 2007 - 04:52 pm
SUPER job here today, just a super job@ Well done!! What question does anybody have on verbs at this point?
Ginny
January 6, 2007 - 07:25 am
Well now we know! Even the YEAST people are getting in on the seasonal mush minds, check this out just now from Fleishman's Yeast:
Look around your house and the neighborhood. Do you see that by now most of your neighbors have taken down their holiday decorations? Are the bright lights and merry ornaments stored away until next year? With the holidays behind, have you noticed that there is a bit less of a spring in your step as you go about your daily routines? Does it seem that even the youngsters are dragging their heels after the hustle and bustle of November and December festivities? Well, if you and the folks around you at home and at work are feeling a little low this time of year, you're experiencing a common but benign setback. According to a leading medical center, you've caught the seasonal epidemic known as the Post Holiday Blahs. Too bad. Because it may last well through February.
But there's good news.
You can cure the ailment by taking some simple steps. And when you do so, you'll not only feel better, but you will put smiles on the faces of people you care about.
First of all, don't anguish over those New Year Resolutions that you may have already broken. Perhaps you've set the bar too high. Remember that moderation is a good guideline, so be realistic and be good to yourself if you can't keep up with all of them.
Recommit to that exercise regime. A brisk walk every day may be all that it takes to work off those few unwanted pounds you added over the holidays. If you team up with a friend on a scenic trail, you'll feel invigorated in no time at all. Your weight will be going down and your spirits will climb.
Start thinking about seasonal sports. Whether you're a skier, an ice skater, a hockey, volleyball or basketball player, try to plan for a weekend on the slopes or the ice or join a local sports team. If you're an enthusiastic spectator, make the time to go root for the home team at that grade school, high school or college that is nearby.
But, most of all, remember that get-togethers with good company do not have to come to an end because the holidays are over. (this is a company which sells yeast, they want you to bake, I wondered where this was going to appear) Think about all the effort that was involved in planning your baking for the holidays. It took a lot of energy, but it was fun, too, as you considered the breads, pizza, rolls, cakes and 1-Dish Meals that were likely to please. You really did enjoy trying out those new recipes, and it was a pleasure to see how much they were appreciated by the people who shared them. Well, that kind of pleasure doesn't have to end in December.
Now it's time to rally the troops. Get them involved. Coax your significant other and the little ones away from the TV screen for awhile. Encourage them to plan with you an upbeat (and modest) Family Winter Carnival of Baking, a weekly event that you can hold right in your own home, where everyone can participate.
That's IT? THAT'S your New Year Solution?
WHERE is any sort of intellectual fulfillment? Food for the mind and spirit? WHERE is pick up a good book, immerse yourself in learning something new? Cherish your Latin and the wonderful world it opens to you like a Pandora's Box?? Hahahaa
Aren't we lucky tho? I'm proud of US, I don't see Fleishman's Yeast telling people to conjugate! Haha
Hmpf, the sun will come out tomorrow earlier for our Latinists!
Mens sana in corpore sano--Juvenal (55-c. 130 A.D.)
Johann McCrackin
January 6, 2007 - 12:16 pm
Ginny, good motto - A sound mind in a sound body - and medical science is telling us these days how important they BOTH are! (Some New Year's resolution from the "yeast people"! I can just see me getting my husband into the kitchen to help me bake!)
Just came in to tell you all that I have been suffering some angst over my decision to discontinue Latin at this point, but I just don't seem to have enough hours in the day or enough energy to keep up with it right now. My volunteer commitments and some family situations this year have required a lot of my attention in recent months. By the time I get here after dinner at night, my mind just doesn't function well and I'm finding classroom participation very difficult. We are also going on a two week trip in February and I think it will be difficult for me to catch up when I return. I will try to stay in touch through the Classics Lounge and Bulletin Board. You all are great classmates and super Latin scholars and a great example of how well an online classroom can function! Perhaps I can participate actively again in the fall.
Ginny
January 7, 2007 - 05:54 am
Johann, we are so sorry to be losing you, I feel like Hannibal here half way thru the Alps and there goes Joahannnnnn off the side of the mountain, I am so sorry! I am in hopes that you'll slide down most comfortably to the bottom and beat us to the end and we'll pick you up on the down side again!! We will miss you!
But I think we're ready here now (I agree on the Carnival of Baking! hahaaha It must be hard to be a YEAST company with one holiday ending and not another for some time to come ahahaha) with our verbs, our work has shown us where we need each to concentrate, and we'll approach our nouns a little differently BECAUSE in a very short time we embark with the MAN, Odysseus (Ulysses), renowned since Homer wrote of him in 700 BC, on his epic Odyssey back home.
Aeneas has landed, we've come out of Hell, and his exploits for his time (c. 1250 BC) constitute a feat as daring as any space odyssey and in a few short chapters we'll see how another person made a similar voyage home but with more perils, perhaps. I think you'll enjoy the Odyssey, a story originally told around campfires, the famous oral tradition, written in Greek, with more famous mythical references than, perhaps, any other.
(Isn't a new car named the Odyssey?)
At any rate, those of you who like to do parallel reading, you might like to check out The Odyssey, I'd use the Lombardo translation if available, he makes it SO alive.
JCollins
January 7, 2007 - 06:55 am
Johann--Going to miss you but I understand the busy days with not enough hours to go around--sure we will see you hanging off a declension or conjugation some where along the way--Pax tecum -Jack
GeneJ
January 7, 2007 - 09:37 am
(Isn't a new car named the Odyssey?)
Yep!
Ginny
January 7, 2007 - 01:33 pm
Who makes it, Gene?
I tell you what, you canNOT get away from Classical references! Just today I finished ordering my roses for this year (I'm late and a lot of them are gone), and in looking at one called The Shepherdess on the David Austin site, I wish you'd look at why it was named that!
Click on the Shepherdess under David Austin's photo and see how it got its name!
JIW
January 7, 2007 - 05:28 pm
Ginny: Perhaps you have answered this question before, but I need to hear it again. How do you tell the difference between a regular 3rd conjugation verb, and an -io? If you are looking only at the four principal parts, is there a way to tell? This is my toughest verb.
Ginny
January 8, 2007 - 04:42 am
A bright good morning to you all!
JIW, when looking at the Infinitive: capere, there is no way to tell whether or not if it's the IO division of the 3rd conjugation. You can tell it's in the 3rd but that's about it. You need to see the first Principal Part to tell you that it IS 3rd IO. Simply looking at the capIO however, won't tell you much as you still don't know if it's 4th. So you really need both, good question.
Not sure you can all read this but this is the plaque at Cumae where Aeneas landed, the entire site is full of Vergil text. I'll have some more photos for you of Cumae this Friday but AENEAS has LANDED, and we are moving on!!
This morning if you'll look at Paragraphs 227 and 228 you will see a Review (for us , I hope) of the Personal Pronouns. It may be that Cambridge sort of slapped AT these and you're not sure of some of the forms. Here is our chance. We'll start IN class and in homework to review them, after all, our title o the week is Et in Arcadio EGO, we need to get our ego's straight.
Let's practice in class. We'll ask a question ONLY concerning a personal pronoun here, like:
Give it TO ME_________ and he has YOUR (singular)__________ book.
ONLY translate pronouns today!
I'll go first: she likes ME______________
JCollins
January 8, 2007 - 05:56 am
I'll go first: she likes ME______________
mē
next--I will take it for YOU
mouseketeer
January 8, 2007 - 06:41 am
I will take it for you.
tibi singular
vobis plural
When are you going to the store?
JCollins
January 8, 2007 - 07:02 am
When are you going to the store?
tU
Next--Why me?
formerfarmer
January 8, 2007 - 07:26 am
Next--Why me?
mē
next: they hear US
JCollins
January 8, 2007 - 07:43 am
next: they hear US
nōs
Next
Where were YOU?
EllH
January 8, 2007 - 07:58 am
Where were you?--tU
Take MY chair.
GeneJ
January 8, 2007 - 08:23 am
Ginny:
Who makes it, Gene?
Just off the top of my head I believe it's Honda. If I'm wrong I'm sure someone on here will come up with the correct answer.
Gene
GeneJ
January 8, 2007 - 09:22 am
Take MY chair. ---- (I'm thinking that chair in Latin is feminine.)
meam
Next: Give me MY money.
marni0308
January 8, 2007 - 09:29 am
Re classical allusions.....I just read that the original figurehead on the old frigate USS Constitution ("Old Ironsides") was that of Hercules. The figurehead was destroyed during the Barbary Wars and eventually replaced with a figurehead of Andrew Jackson.
EllH
January 8, 2007 - 10:02 am
give me MY money-meam
nest
I'll have the money from all of YOU.
mouseketeer
January 8, 2007 - 10:03 am
Give me MY money.
meam
Next Give ME my money.
marni0308
January 8, 2007 - 10:04 am
Give me MY money. - meam
Next: Send the money to US.
(Wow, I'm really going to have to spend a long time studying this section.)
fdobbs
January 8, 2007 - 10:18 am
Send the money to us: nobis nobis IS correct for to us, but with the verb send, which implies motion you need ad and the Accusative: ad nos
Next: you will go with me
EllH
January 8, 2007 - 10:35 am
Give ME my money-mihi
Next-She went with me.
fdobbs
January 8, 2007 - 10:41 am
with me: cum me
next: by you
marni0308
January 8, 2007 - 10:58 am
by you (s.) - ā tē
Next: She held HER book.
mouseketeer
January 8, 2007 - 11:14 am
She held HER book. this is my and it's correct, we've not had her yet as a possessive.
meum (adj. modifying book)
THEY went to the atrium.
marni0308
January 8, 2007 - 11:19 am
THEY went to the atrium. - Our text didn't get to the plural nominative personal pronoun yet. Did we have it in our other text? Are there different "they"s for feminine and masculine?
Ginny
January 8, 2007 - 12:02 pm
Yes, let's keep off the THIRD Person (he she it hers theirs his they) entirely, even tho they do mention it, yes indeed there are words for them.
Let's say I saw YOU (plural)_________ with MY book___________ Watch that one.
Cambridge really didn't do a super job with these, we can consider this new work!
mouseketeer
January 8, 2007 - 12:56 pm
I saw YOU with MY book.
I nominative ego
YOU accusative tE
MY ablative adjective meO
Next: YOU (s.) are YOUR own best friend.
formerfarmer
January 8, 2007 - 02:15 pm
YOU (s.) are YOUR own best friend.
tU----
tuAm This one we can't do because of the presence of the word OWN which denotes something different
next: YOU may drive MY CAR.
mouseketeer
January 8, 2007 - 02:39 pm
YOU may drive MY car.
tU; if "car" is m., MY would be meum
Next: OUR battle for OUR country has just begun.
GeneJ
January 8, 2007 - 03:16 pm
Next: OUR battle for OUR country has just begun.
nostra -- I'm fairly sure of this one.
nostra --- Not too sure of this one, bcause it is preceded by "for." Yes "for" is always a puzzlement, is it the Dative (verbs of giving showing telling and other things) or does it mean for as in pro and the Ablative? I'd say here pro patria nostra as you have it, Ablative singular. Thanks for the car make!
The above refers to the first and second occurences of the word, "our."
Ginny
January 8, 2007 - 07:03 pm
Oh good job! I think it's important to hone in on these buzzards and I think we can jsut consider this as I said new (in which case you are tearing it UP!)
I like the examples here and I think you're doing splendidly!
ONE thing about these things that really gets to people is expressed at the top of page 177 under Caution They are right about that.
THIS one thing hampers people badly, just be sure you're using:
meus, a, um
tuus, a, um
noster, nostra, nostrum
and vester, vestra, vestrum to say my, our, your, (singular and plural) and don't use the pronoun, because mei means OF ME, not my
I don't think anybody here will have that problem but it turns up a lot of times in the future.
Another interesting thing can be seen in number 8 of 229. "With me," which is correct as cum mē, was often written mēcum instead. As well as all of the others in the Ablative, now you know where they got Nobiscum and Vobiscum.
I am trying something new which we are going to implement next year but I'm trying it out this semester to see how our students like it (in all my classes) which is to have Class Work assignments go over 2 days, to allow people to feel they have thoroughly grasped each grammatical point before whisking it off into thin air again, so we'll have the same work on pronouns tomorrow but with a little twist. In a week or so you might like to say which way you prefer the class work, to go 2 days or perhaps one is more than enough. ahhaah It MAY depend upon the actual work.
Don't you just lOVE that photo of the entrance to Cumae? That's as you walk up, doesn't it look spectacular?
And speaking of spectacular, BILL!! Did you take that photo of the chair lift to Vesuvius shown in Ecce III? Bill's photos
Tell us about it? It's not there now or if it is I sure could have saved myself a million gasping breaths, what happened at the top? How far up did it go? Which side was it on? What was up there? THAT'S the way to go up Vesuvius! Tell ALL! How did you happen to see that aqueduct near Naples? Do you know which one it is?
formerfarmer
January 8, 2007 - 07:48 pm
Ginny, I'm sorry I can't give more details about those pictures but my memory is really poor about that time. Have you ever tried to lable pictures thirty years after taking them? Some fun. Can't say for sure the cable car was at Vesuvius, but I don't know where else I would have encountered one.
Ken1
January 8, 2007 - 09:56 pm
I will try Ginny's first examples:
Give it TO ME_________ and he has YOUR (singular)__________ book.
TO ME - mihi
He has YOUR book - tuus - I think this is right. tuum, needs to be Accusative
The car is the Honda Odyssey as Gene mentioned. I own one and it does live up to its name as my family and I have traveled throughout the west with it.
Next - Please write YOUR name on MY tablet.
marni0308
January 8, 2007 - 10:14 pm
Please write YOUR name on MY tablet.
vestrum, meā
Next: Give ME the food for MY mother.
Ginny
January 9, 2007 - 04:27 am
Bill, I can't even label the ones I took this past March!!!!! I think it's not memory I think it's Photo Shock, (I hope so, anyway). I've gotten to where I take photos of ANY explanatory anything, but this past March I took over 1,250 photos in Italy and were it not for some little clues, I'd be clueless! That is why I have photos of plaques! hahaha Otherwise, except for the battlements of Cumae, you'd swear it was Thermopolye!
Anyway, thank you for sharing those truly incredible photos, you won't see any others like them and I am so glad that you put them in Ecce!
Let's continue today, I'm hearing in email and in homework that this is NOT a review! Let's try today in our sentences to use one pronoun (ego mihi mei, nos, tu, vos, etc, ....skip the 3rd altogether) and ONE possessive as Ken has just answered, let's try to use them ALL, make that our goal today!
Ken did you know you were driving a piece of Classical history? haahaha
Give ME the food for MY mother, tricky!!______ ________
mouseketeer
January 9, 2007 - 05:28 am
Give ME the food for MY mother, tricky!
a me; I'm not sure how to decline mother, so I'm taking a wild stab
here. I know mother is mater, matris, f.so, dative singular
adjective. mei? Dona mihi (verbs of giving showing and telling tahe the Dative) librum matris meae. Here meus, a, um can only take those forms and mater, regardless of declension, is feminine so you have to take the mea track, I'm glad we're doing these in class!
Next:YOU need to bring YOUR book to class.
fdobbs
January 9, 2007 - 06:26 am
I'll take a stab at this: me--mihi--my mother--matri meae
fdobbs
January 9, 2007 - 06:35 am
Were we supposed to do the entire 10 sentences of 229? I just did
the first two, as it said A.1 and 2. Fran
Ginny
January 9, 2007 - 07:31 am
Oh sorry, I believe I misunderstood your question, yes all of the prounouns "test," but just the first 2 in the sentences on the bottom starting with A
cook1
January 9, 2007 - 08:19 am
YOU need to bring YOUR book to class.
tū tuum
Next: I am cooking dinner for our mother.
JCollins
January 9, 2007 - 08:31 am
Next: I am cooking dinner for our mother.
Ego--nom. sing.
our---dative--feminine-singular-nostrae
next-- SHE read MY book
marni0308
January 9, 2007 - 08:32 am
I am cooking dinner for OUR mother.
ego, nostrā
Next: I will send MY letter with YOU.
Ginny
January 9, 2007 - 08:41 am
And both of those uses of "for" are correct.
formerfarmer
January 9, 2007 - 08:50 am
I (ego)will send MY(me)
meam, mē means me, so we're saying me letter, which some dialects do but we don't want to letter with YOU(te)
next: YOU should listen to YOUR mother
JIW
January 9, 2007 - 10:03 am
YOU should listen to YOUR mother
tu, vestrae (is the dative used for "to your mother?)
Next: YOU correct MY answer!
JIW
January 9, 2007 - 10:06 am
Ginny: A belated thanks for responding to my question re identifying 3rd-io verbs. So I guess the answer is to just learn them as they come along!
EllH
January 9, 2007 - 10:42 am
You need to bring your book- Tu-you tuum your
I need MY book every minute.
GeneJ
January 9, 2007 - 11:37 am
I need MY book every minute.
meum
We shall steal HIS book.
JIW
January 9, 2007 - 12:21 pm
We shall steal HIS book.
Gene: This is third person, which we have not yet had and Ginny said to skip. So I am changing it to YOUR book.
vestrum
Next: Show ME YOUR new chariot.
GeneJ
January 9, 2007 - 12:38 pm
JIW:
Glad you caught it. I didn't intentionally wish to throw a curve ball.
Gene
cook1
January 9, 2007 - 01:02 pm
Show ME YOUR new chariot.
mihi tuus tuum
Next: I like his new chariot.
JIW
January 9, 2007 - 02:54 pm
Cook: Wouldn't the your in #98 be tuum instead of tuus, since it is accusative?
JIW
January 9, 2007 - 02:57 pm
I like his new chariot.
Since we are doing third persons, I will change this to I like YOUR new chariot.
ego, vestrum
Next: But I like MY chariot better.
mouseketeer
January 9, 2007 - 04:04 pm
Ginny,
This may sound pretty dumb, but my "putty" brain needs you to
decline mater for me.
But I like MY chariot better.
I = ego
MY = meum
What do YOU think about OUR battle?
fdobbs
January 9, 2007 - 04:23 pm
You=tu
about our battle-proelio nostro
next: YOUR son told US many stories.
fdobbs
January 9, 2007 - 04:47 pm
I found mAter declined in one of my dictionaries.
Sing:
Nom: mAter
Gen: mAtris
Dat: mAtrI
Acc: mAtrem
Abl: mAtre
Plural:
Nom: mAtrEs
Gen: mAtrum
Dat: mAtribus
Acc: mAtrEs
Abl: mAtribus
cook1
January 9, 2007 - 05:15 pm
(#99 of 103) Cook: Wouldn't the your in #98 be tuum instead of tuus, since it is accusative?
Yes, I believe you are right JIW. I had "currus" on my mind and it stayed there. LOL. So...currum / tuum.
formerfarmer
January 9, 2007 - 05:32 pm
Ginny, There is a brief history of the Vesuvius chair lift at this cite.
http://www.vesuvioinrete.it/funicolare/e_seggiovia_storia.htm
formerfarmer
January 9, 2007 - 06:01 pm
YOUR son told US many stories.
your--tU tuus
us--nObIs
next: YOU will meet OUR friends
Ginny
January 9, 2007 - 06:14 pm
Thank you Fran, I like the way everybody in here helps each other, that's mater!
Alma mater.
Thank you Bill, that thing is a hoot! On 31 May 1961, the "Vesuvius Railway and Funicular Company" changed its company title in "Vesuvius chair lift and bus-line" and was controlled by Circumvesuviana. The plant could transport until 1000 persons daily.
As the years went by, it became not much suitable to transport tourists, because unable to transport at the same time the numerous groups. From 1953 to 1984 the plant has almost transported 100.000 persons, half of which were foreigners. In 1984, for the reasons previously cited, the chair lift was stopped for ever.
At present, Mt.Vesuvius can be visited by car. The road leaves near Ercolano's toll-booth of Napoli-Salerno motorway
Yeah, the road takes you to the bottom and then you get to climb the EASY way up, hahahaa, and lose your breath in the process. What an adventure. I think I showed the photos of the easy way up.
There are also sort of vans at the Herculaneum train stop among others which take tourists up to the same parking lot the road does, so they say, I've seen them, they are labelled Vesuvius but they charge a lot and stop by a bar on the way back, so says Rick Steves.
I'll tell you the truth, I believe I'd rather walk up, I've taken that sort of chair lift in Switzerland and nearly threw up, we had to take 3 to get to the top of Mt. Titlis which is fabulous but never again (but they felt and seemed quite sturdy, that thing does not look sturdy??) Piece of history, sorry I didn't get to see it when it was running, no trace of it now on the side you now walk up.
Now our first foray into Evander and Aeneas seems quite complicated, I agree it's not over clear.
The terms are confusing here and have had several questions in email so before we tackle it tomorrow I thought I'd answer some of them here.
Latium was originally a small area of land in western Italy around the Alban Mount about 13 miles southeast of Rome, according to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature. In historical times Latium was inhabited by the Latini, a people formed by a fusion of Indo European invaders and the previous inhabitants.
Apparently the Latini were tribes of this area.
Ken1
January 9, 2007 - 08:16 pm
YOU will meet OUR friends
YOU - tū
OUR - nostrōs
Next: send ME MY book.
Ginny
January 10, 2007 - 05:23 am
Excellent work here and this morning now we interrupt this message of beautiful review to say, check out L&A and we'll now hear in class your translations of the play In Italia Aeneas Auxilium Accipit and when they are over we'll take up again our pronouns.
As you know translations are as individual as the person who does them, and THIS little buzzard is tricky, so compare what you're seeing in class with what somebody else has understood, and let's see how close we all are. Sort of like that old game HOT HOTTER HOTTEST as a person draws near to the goal.
If you sent in homework yesterday or last night I will be returning it either late tonight when I get back in or tomorrow, so don't worry if it has been received.
Today being Wednesday we have no homework, so you can take the time privately to figure out what particularly is bothering you. Tomorrow is Question Thursday so if you have anything at all which is not clear, tomorrow's the day!
Let's begin with our final chapter in the Aeneas story. As you recall the Romans were very proud of Aeneas having founded "Rome," but it appears there were people there before him. I am not sure we can reconcile Evander the Happy Arcadian with this Evander who continually , tho a foreigner, wages war with those who are indigenous, or at least got there first. See what you can find out about our man Evander which might help the class.
We know realistically if his Arcadia had been such a paradise he'd not have left, would he? He certainly is not happily watching the sheep, what can you find out about HIM.
Et in Arcadia Ego! And all of its implications!
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 05:41 am
IN ITALY AENEAS ACCEPTS HELP
Once upon a time in Latium there was a city that had been named Pallanteum.
formerfarmer
January 10, 2007 - 06:11 am
The king of the town, Evander, had departed from Arcadia with many settlers.
EllH
January 10, 2007 - 06:44 am
In Italy,the town was fortified in the place where afterwards Romulus founded Rome,
GeneJ
January 10, 2007 - 06:48 am
They were always waging war with neighbors, the Latin people.
CubFan
January 10, 2007 - 06:55 am
Aeneas and the settlers of Troy were also living in Italy and were also fighting with the Latins.
GeneJ
January 10, 2007 - 07:00 am
Because they wanted allies Aeneas and a few men approached Pallanteum.
mouseketeer
January 10, 2007 - 07:31 am
Outside the town, the Trojans came upon the son of Evander and a few
Arcadians.
fdobbs
January 10, 2007 - 07:56 am
Pallas: I am Pallas, son of Evander.
EllH
January 10, 2007 - 07:57 am
Palls: I am Pallas, the son of Evander.My friends and I greet you.
mouseketeer
January 10, 2007 - 07:58 am
I and my friends greet you.
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 08:18 am
Who are you?
fdobbs
January 10, 2007 - 08:21 am
Why have you and your friends come to Pallanteum?
mouseketeer
January 10, 2007 - 08:26 am
Aeneas: I am called Aeneas. I and my men have been led to Italy by the gods.
cook1
January 10, 2007 - 08:27 am
Now we desire your help.
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 08:31 am
Accept us, please, and hear our story.
formerfarmer
January 10, 2007 - 08:32 am
PALLAS: I will not send you away. I have heard much about you.
mouseketeer
January 10, 2007 - 08:38 am
Proceed to the town with us.
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 08:39 am
King Rvander graciously accepts Aeneas.
marni0308
January 10, 2007 - 08:41 am
King Evander gratefully receives Aeneas.
mouseketeer
January 10, 2007 - 08:41 am
Evander: When I was a boy in Arcadia, your father came to my country.
marni0308
January 10, 2007 - 08:42 am
Evander: When I was a boy in Arcadia, Aeneas, your father came to my homeland.
marni0308
January 10, 2007 - 08:44 am
Can anyone help me with the very first sentence of this story? I had trouble with the verb. How did it come to be in the past perfect?
JIW
January 10, 2007 - 08:44 am
Evander: When I was a boy in Arcadia, Aeneas, your father came to my country.
cook1
January 10, 2007 - 08:45 am
He gave me many pleasing things.
JIW
January 10, 2007 - 08:53 am
I have pleasing memories of the man.
JIW
January 10, 2007 - 09:01 am
Marni,
Can anyone help me with the very first sentence of this story? I had trouble with the verb. How did it come to be in the past perfect?
My first thought was that because the sentence begins "once upon a time..." the verb would be past perfect because that was in the past and over, the town no longer exists. But your question suggests that perhaps the imperfect would have been better? Once upon a time there used to be a town... or there was a town in the sense that it continued over a period of time. Good question. I am sure Ginny will enlighten us.
fdobbs
January 10, 2007 - 09:07 am
Also you will have seen a good and loyal man.
marni0308
January 10, 2007 - 09:14 am
Thanks, JIW. I was wondering about the "erat..appellAtum..." It's like it says "was called" which would be Passive case, but the verb doesn't look like any of the Passive verbs to me????
JIW
January 10, 2007 - 09:14 am
fdobbs: Video in the passive means seem. So I think that Evander is telling Aeneas "you seem to be a..."
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 09:19 am
Hi-Marni-I afraid my translation of the first sentence was too loose and off the cuff, so to speak. Upon review I find I used oppidum in the accusative case when perhaps it should have been nominative. Also used erat incorrectly as it should have been coupled with verb appellatum. Believe I got the translation of past perfect ok. Another version might read, Once upon a time in Latium (or Latin) a city(nominative), had been named (or called) Pallenteum. Let me know what you think as I am certainly open for suggestions
JIW
January 10, 2007 - 09:20 am
Marni: I understand your question now. The way I see it, there are two clauses here. Erat refers to there was a town. It is not connected to appellatum. That is a separate verb stating what the town was called. Does this make sense?
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 09:23 am
JIW--That is how I used "erat" in my first translation but I believe appellatum needs an auxiliary in the past perfect-don't think it can stand alone as I first translated. I like my first version best but I don't think it is technically correct.Jack
JIW
January 10, 2007 - 09:23 am
I approve of you and will give you aid.
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 09:26 am
I give thanks to you.
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 10:18 am
Sorry
Rather-
I give thanks to you, Evander
mouseketeer
January 10, 2007 - 10:34 am
On # 110 I translated, "Once upon a time there was a town called
Pallentum in Latium."
I was using the partiple appellatum as an adjective.
On with the story: We will be firm friends.
EllH
January 10, 2007 - 11:34 am
Evander. Because I am no longer young, I hesitate to fight with you.
GeneJ
January 10, 2007 - 11:53 am
To you, Aeneas, I will entrust my son.
JIW
January 10, 2007 - 12:48 pm
Re appellatum again: Without really thinking about it, I translated appellatum as a participial adjective (which we do not get until section 239). I see that mouseketeer did the same. I do not see it as a passive pluperfect verb, but I could be wrong.
JIW
January 10, 2007 - 12:49 pm
On with the story:
He is fresh and will fight for me.
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 12:49 pm
Bring forth many men with you. (Something like that--perhaps a better translation is needed-seems a little awkward)
mouseketeer
January 10, 2007 - 12:53 pm
He is sound and will fight for me.
marni0308
January 10, 2007 - 03:23 pm
Pallas, my son, I will send you away now with the Trojans.
(I'm not positive of the "mI" here. I'm guessing it's the word for "my" when you speak directly to a person, as here where it seems to modify "son.")
Thanks, folks, for your ideas about translating the first sentence of the story!
JCollins
January 10, 2007 - 03:41 pm
Bring forth many men with you. (Something like that--perhaps a better translation is needed-seems a little awkward)
mouseketeer
January 10, 2007 - 04:42 pm
I translated the sentence: Lead out many men with you. :as per
vocabulary, page 173 #224.
Pallas: Farewell, father! We will battle bravely.
formerfarmer
January 10, 2007 - 05:16 pm
And Pallas fought bravely.
GeneJ
January 10, 2007 - 05:34 pm
But poor Evander never saw the son alive again.
GeneJ
January 10, 2007 - 05:41 pm
Marni:
Reference your post # 152 as pasted here:
Pallas, my son, I will send you away now with the Trojans.
(I'm not positive of the "mI" here. I'm guessing it's the word for "my" when you speak directly to a person, as here where it seems to modify "son.")
I had trouble with the words, "mī filī" --- I couldn't confidentaly dope out what case they were in and the construction. I do believe the translation is probably "my son", but the question is still there.
Gene
marni0308
January 10, 2007 - 09:11 pm
Thanks, Gene. Ginny will probably give us the scoop when she gets back.
Ken1
January 10, 2007 - 10:15 pm
Gene and Marni,
My latin dictionary gives mī as the dative of ego and the vocative and imperative of meus. I am not sure how this fits in with the passage, but I guess I could consider the mī filī as vocative. I could see this passage as a demonstative lament from Evander.
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 05:19 am
I think you are on target with the vocative in classroom #159 for
#152 above. In UH, #100, p77 explains the vocative
endings of the us and ius masculine nouns. filius becomes fili, and
meus has to modify it. I had also translated "my son", but hadn't
fully justified why I thought that was the meaning. Thank you.
Ginny
January 11, 2007 - 05:39 am
YES!! Yes this is excellent, I really like the way this class works together. Everybody talks to the other members and tries to figure out what may be going on and together you often arrive at the correct thing even without the Instructor who was delayed in returning, but I did look in last night and was extremely pleased with what you have done! An excellent use of class time, really super.
YES, the newer editions of UH give a footnote on mi fili, mi is an aberration of the Vocative of the word meus, it's just the Vocative, and is irregular and means my. Fili is son, which is correct for the Vocative (noun of Direct Address) and so together it does mean "my son."
This is a jerky passage and I MUST say your translations read much better than the text!
Good discussion also on the erat....appellatum. Here I think we'd more or less want to use this as it reads, the erat is nowhere near the appellatum as you'd expect for the PluPerfect: it's Olim in Latio erat oppidum appellatum Pallenteum.
This construction is very similar to "they called the wind Mariah." Here we have a town called Pallenteum. It's really ALMOST a noun in Apposition, paragraph 142. If we did not have appellatum we'd have there was a town, Pallenteum. I think this is a case of Apposition with the 4th Principal Part used as an adjective modifying Pellenteum. I think also there might be an argument for saying Once in Latium a town had been called Pellenteum, but I think this actually says Once upon a time there was a town, called Pallenteum.
The entire passage is jerky, isn't it? Smart class to jump on that one. I'd say you can translate it either way since they are so jerky and vague, but I'd lean toward the there was a town called Pallenteum. Every now and then in UH you hit a passage like this and it makes you wonder why they did not put their initials after the story so we could get used to whoever's style. As you go in Latin style will commend itself to you, so it's good to be alert for strange ones.
Excellent excellent excellent. So unhappily we've lost Pallas. I guess Evander's Arcadia was also full of death as well as happy sheep.
I liked Pallas' recognition of Aeneas from when Aeneas had visited. The ancients were BIG on hospitality. Remember Homer writing in 700 BC showing in the Iliad and the Odyssey how guests were first received, shown to their rooms and had a bath if they wished, wined and dined and THEN asked their story, this was the custom of the day: reception of a guest was very important.
All right! Today we'll really ratchet up our pronouns, we need to keep practicing with them, and today we'll work with the possessives, meus, tuus, noster and vester only, and get in a review at the same time of the Cases.
See L&A: I'll go first:
for my your (singular and plural) our book_________ ___________ ____________ ________________ (Case and Use:) _________ _________________
See L&A for a description of what we're doing here.
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 06:58 am
for my your (singular and plural) our book
dative, indirect object
libro meo, tuo, vestro, nostro
(Did you note) my your (s. and pl.) our leisure
GeneJ
January 11, 2007 - 07:43 am
mouseketeer :
Thanks Nancy for going first. I was still trying to figure out the instructions. Pity me. I think I'll wait for a few more folks to tackle the questions, then I'll jump in. Good of you to break the ice.
Ginny:
I was going to print out today's L&A and I remembered after I did the printout that I did not go to printer friendly. Remember I had a problem. Someone, I believe it was Fran, suggested I could use printer friendly, but it was cumbersome. Well I forgot to do it in recent days, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT. IT'S NOW UNNECESSARY!! When I checked that last few printouts that I did I found that everything printed right up to the right margin line. Hats off to the change. And many thanks to whoever made the change. I didn't expect it, and was unaware of it till I just noticed it this morning. Fantastic!!
Gene
formerfarmer
January 11, 2007 - 08:12 am
Did you note) my your (s. and pl.) our leisure
accusative-direct object
otium meum,nostrum,nostros,tuum,vestrum
next:he is our ( your s&p) my poet
Gene , I am also struggling with the instructions
fdobbs
January 11, 2007 - 08:26 am
I'm in the same "boat", Only I don't understand the instructions at all. Will continue to watch others. Fran
fdobbs
January 11, 2007 - 08:53 am
nominative:
poeta noster
poetae nostri
Is that right?
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 09:33 am
I'm thinking it might be easier to spell out all the expressions.
First the case: direct object in # 164
The noun always stays the same as in leisure otium since it is a
direct object and neuter
Then the noun and my: otium meum
the noun and your (s) otium tuum
the noun and your (p) otium vestrum
the noun and our otium nostrum
So, in #164, nostros would not apply, if I am correct in my thinking.
the noun and your (p)
the noun and our
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 09:39 am
Now in the case of the poet: he is my, your (s and pl) our poet
Nominative: predicate noun poeta (m.)
poeta meus
poeta tuus
poeta vester
poeta noster
I think these are correct.
Will do Next: in next post
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 09:47 am
Next:(The gods are) my, your (s & pl), our protection. (Also translated as guard)
Ginny
January 11, 2007 - 10:48 am
Whoops! So sorry not to be clear, perhaps a case of trying to do too much in one lesson!
And in the time it took me to hit Post My Message button and it all crash and get back in here, 4 new messages!!! YES! Now you're on it!
Mousketeer is right in her corrections, so without going back let's go ahead!
Let's leave off the Cases and their Uses and review those another day.
Let's instead simply pose a challenge, using any noun on page 161, in this way:
Number 7: of the gods
The answer will be deorum because of course it's the Genitive plural.
The person responding will go on to match each of these possessive pronouns to it:
Meus/ tuus/ noster, vester
So the final answer will look like deorum meorum, tuorum nostrorum, vestrorum
That's it?
Good for you, Gene, I'm glad it's working now!
Next: with the poet (tricky, don't forget what gender poet is!)
Oh Bill, yours is correct except for nostros, that's Accusative plural and does not fit in with the rest, other than that, perfect!
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 11:03 am
With the poet
cum poetA meO
cum poetA tuO
cum poetA vestrO
cum poetA nostrO
Next: of the book
marni0308
January 11, 2007 - 11:09 am
with the poet - cum poētā
cum poētā meā, tuā, nostrā, vestrā you need masculine endings here as yon poeta is masculine!
Next: for the opinion
marni0308
January 11, 2007 - 11:12 am
Uh, oh. I saw the a on the ending of poet and thought it was feminine, but the glossary says it's masculine. Looks like I have to review those few tricky ones.
What are the others? nauta, I think, is one.
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 11:20 am
agricola is one, but it's not on our list today!
Ginny
January 11, 2007 - 11:25 am
You all are too quick for me, poet, farmer, sailor, chariot driver (auriga), and of course, pirata Cap'n Jack would be highly offended by a feminine gender.
hahahaa
JCollins
January 11, 2007 - 01:34 pm
Yes, indeed I would.Jack
JCollins
January 11, 2007 - 01:48 pm
Not quite sure what we are doing here but will give it a try.
Next: for the opinion
for--pro sentia--ablative sing.fem.
mea
nostra
tua
vestra
GeneJ
January 11, 2007 - 02:05 pm
To the water.
Ad aquam
meam
tuam
vestram
nostram
I just listed something for myself as a challenge.
Ginny
January 11, 2007 - 03:35 pm
hahahaah well those are right, let's have another I'll pose one for the next person, lemme see, page 161 what looks good? I know:
he ran into the battle . Watch out for battle and eagerness and guard, they have an extra letter floating around.
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 04:06 pm
Ginny,
What do you mean by an extra letter?
into the battle
in prolium meum
in prolium tuam I meant the extra I in proelio etc., lots of times people leave it off.
in prolium vestrum
in prolium nostrum
Next: (What is) the opinion?
fdobbs
January 11, 2007 - 04:16 pm
in proelium
in tuum proelium
in meum proelium
in nostrum proelium
in vestrum proelium
next: for the poets
fdobbs
January 11, 2007 - 04:17 pm
Oops, I didn't put the noun first! Fran
fdobbs
January 11, 2007 - 04:24 pm
sententia: fem. pred.nom.
sententia mea
sententia tua
sententia vestra
sententia nostra
next: for the poets
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 04:24 pm
I'm thinking, Ginny, there is an extra letter in the nominative
plural of prolium because it is an "ius" word? Same for the others?
Ginny
January 11, 2007 - 04:44 pm
it's proelium, and then proeli in the Genitive because of the -ius rule for the Genitive (not having ii) and then proelio, etc, some people leave that off, thinking the BASE is proel....
In the plural it's proelia because it's a neuter and so on.
mouseketeer
January 11, 2007 - 05:06 pm
Well, I'm glad I had the right idea!!!! Thanks for the note.
Ken1
January 11, 2007 - 08:48 pm
for the poets - dative case
poētīs meīs
poētīs nostrīs
poētīs tuīs
poētīs vestrīs
Maryemm
January 12, 2007 - 05:03 am
Good morning, Everyone, and a belated
Happy 2007 to all of you
Finding material that might be of interest and/or follows on from the chapters you have been reading isn't always easy.Very often, either Ginny,or a member of the class has posted appropriate and informative information and I am unable to add much, if anything, to what has already been posted.
Today, therefore, I thought you might be interested to learn what has been happening in the world of the "Discoverers". (I hope this title covers all the learned, and lay people, who continue to make amazing finds about our Past.)
For instance, did you know that QUOTE: Archaeologists in the Netherlands have uncovered what they believe is part of the military road Roman soldiers patrolled nearly 2,000 years ago while guarding against hostile Germanic tribes at the Roman Empire's northern boundary UNQUOTE.
If you didn't, have a look at:
ROMAN ROAD DISCOVERY
When you enjoyed that glass of wine over the Holiday period, did you know that some people take a very scientific interest in the contents of that wine bottle?
QUOTE: A survey of ancient Greek sources reveals the surprising properties of certain wines that continue to provoke the curiosity of scholars today. UNQUOTE
WINE PROPERTIES
This week I successfully bid for a bronze Roman ring on e-Bay. Mine was sold in its thousands outside theatres and amphitheatres, so I've learnt (!!), and probably used as a votive offering.
Was it found legitimately? The answer is "yes" when there are so many items of similar deign to be found, However,many items of Antiquity are found,and sold,illegally, and large sums of money are involved, as the following proves:
QUOTE: A statue belonging to the Roman era was found in an olive depot located in Gemlik, Bursa.UNQUOTE
$15 million ROMAN STATUE and, just to remind you;
Aeneas: The Journey
JCollins
January 12, 2007 - 05:31 am
Thank you for the links--learned something about the verb existimi which can have a dual meaning--also like the map of the journey by Aeneas-good visual tool to use in conjunction with the translations.Jack
Ginny
January 12, 2007 - 07:30 am
My goodness Maryemm, isn't that fascinating? Another good reason to return to Amsterdam as if one needed one. And you've BOUGHT a bronze ring? A Roman Ring? I want to hear more about that!!
How do they authenticate the provenance? Johnny Depp had done the same thing (you're in good company). In the Pirates of the Caribbean movies you can see him wearing a gold ring with a huge green stone (and doing some switching of it in the house of the Seer... really the classical allusions in those movies are incredible). Unfortunately he had loaned it to the prop department and they made copies but the original disappeared, which is a great shame, so now all he also has is a copy.
Rome and the Romans are HOT HOT HOT!!
When it comes will you send us a photo of it? I would like to hear more!
A bright and somewhat delayed good morning to you all, but as per you're doing most splendidly and we've completed our first exciting week back with Latin and the Romans.
I've also got some photos for you I think you'd like.
Here is the view from Cumae, it's sort of built up on top of the Sibyl's Cave, looking at the very spot Aeneas landed:
The entire area is strewn with Latin from Vergil as you can see in this plaque: which has part of the Aeneid.
When you finally wend your way TO the cave of the most famous Sibyl and you've passed by huge prehistoric looking caves, THIS is what you see, the entrance to the Sibyl's Cave:
Sort of a let down, huh?
Upon entering you see this famous scene, famous because THEY have lit it:
But that looks kind of regular, doesn't it?
Our class work today will have two parts, a review of the Cases and Their Uses including the Pronouns that govern them, and some Fascinating Facts if you have the time over the weekend to find out some things about the above you might have not known.
I'll go first: just a fun review:
Which case is used to translate the word "to" when no motion is implied? ____________________
Answer that one and pose another one on the Cases, their Uses, and the Prepositions that govern them!
We'll include ALL of the Ablative Uses you have had, can you make a list of them on your own? Don't forget our latest one, the Ablative of Agent, it's time for a review of those, too.
SEE L&A!!
Oh and I do so agree, Jack, we must have that map of Aeneas in the heading we're not through with him yet, but HARK!! I see HANNIBAL on the horizon~ HARK!! Yes, that's him, coming over the hill, yes it is and IS that an elephant? wow!!
GeneJ
January 12, 2007 - 07:43 am
Which case is used to translate the word "to" when no motion is implied? ____________________
Ablative Dative: to or for takes the Dative Case when no motion is implied
Question: How does one recognize the ablative ending in the first declension?
mouseketeer
January 12, 2007 - 07:47 am
dative
what case is used to show possession
formerfarmer
January 12, 2007 - 09:16 am
Question: How does one recognize the ablative ending in the first declension?
the ablative has a long ā
What case does"in" take to show motion?
JIW
January 12, 2007 - 09:44 am
There are two challenges on the table.
What case is used to show possession?: genetive
What case does"in" take to show motion?: in + acc = into, place to which; in + abl = in or on, as placed, place to where
Next: How do you express by whom?
cook1
January 12, 2007 - 10:31 am
How do you express by whom?
By the " ablative of agent. (a, ab)
Next: What case would one use to indicate position in time?
JIW
January 12, 2007 - 10:38 am
In today's L&A Part II Ginny posed some challenges for us. I did some searching on Alfred Lord Tennyson and Vergil, and found this poem.
To Virgil upon the 19th centenary of his death
ROMAN VIRGIL, thou that singest Ilions lofty temples robed in fire,
Ilion falling, Rome arising, wars, and filial faith, and Didos pyre;
Landscape-lover, lord of language more than he that sang the Works and Days,
All the chosen coin of fancy flashing out from many a golden phrase;
Thou that singest wheat and woodland, tilth and vineyard, hive and horse and herd;
All the charm of all the Muses often flowering in a lonely word;
Poet of the happy Tityrus piping underneath his beechen bowers;
Poet of the poet-satyr whom the laughing shepherd bound with flowers;
Chanter of the Pollio, glorying in the blissful years again to be,
Summers of the snakeless meadow, unlaborious earth and oarless sea;
Thou that seest Universal Nature moved by Universal Mind;
Thou majestic in thy sadness at the doubtful doom of human kind;
Light among the vanishd ages; star that gildest yet this phantom shore;
Golden branch amid the shadows, kings and realms that pass to rise no more;
Now thy Forum roars no longer, fallen every purple Cζsars dome
Tho thine ocean-roll of rhythm sound forever of Imperial Rome
Now the Rome of slaves hath perishd, and the Rome of freemen holds her place,
I, from out the Northern Islands sunderd once from all the human race,
I salute thee, Mantovano, I that loved thee since my day began,
Wielder of the stateliest measure ever moulded by the lips of man.
cook1
January 12, 2007 - 12:06 pm
challenge: 2. According to legend this Sibyl offered Rome 9 volumes of her books of prophesies. What happened to them? When was the last time they were actually consulted? How many books still survive today of ancient prophesies?
--------------------------
http://www.dreamscape.com/morgana/desdemo2.htm ----------------------------
I found the following, regarding Sibyl's books of prophesies:
------------------
As the translator notes, this collection should more properly titled 'the Pseudo-Sibylline Oracles'. The original Sibylline Books were closely-guarded oracular scrolls written by prophetic priestesses (the Sibylls) in the Etruscan and early Roman Era as far back as the 6th Century B.C.E. These books were destroyed, partially in a fire in 83 B.C.E., and finally burned by order of the Roman General Flavius Stilicho (365-408 C.E.).
You can read the rest of this article at:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/sib/index.htm Also, listed at the bottom of this page are the individual books that you can click into and read. Are these books the origin of todays bible?
marni0308
January 12, 2007 - 12:22 pm
What wonderful articles and pictures and poetry! This is so fun!
When I looked at Ginny's photo of the "gallery" of the lighted cave of the Sybil, it reminded me of a mine. But I didn't find any information about the place being used as a mine. Then I thought it looked sort of like defense windows in a castle. Well, I did find more interesting info and photos about the cave, including some things that the cave may have been used for:
- "It was a gallery which connected the city to the port area beyond the acropolis."
- It may have been used as a place to defend the port. "When it was discovered, in 1932, the monument was recognized as the oracular cave of the Sybil of Cumae; recent studies start the debate again about this interpretation and suggest to see in the cave a work of the ancient military engineering, a protected corridor dug at the foot of the walls which climbed towards the acropolis and was destined to the protection of the landing-place below: on the external terrace they were located the catapults and the other war machines used for the defence of the port."
- The Romans may have used wings of the cave as cisterns.
- It may have guarded the entrance to the acropolis.
Here's more with great photos. Click the red arrow at the bottom of each page to continue:
http://www.ulixes.it/english/e_pg02dfr02d.html
mouseketeer
January 12, 2007 - 02:15 pm
The only reference to position in time is in #373 in UH which uses
the ablative usually without a prepostion.
Next: name two instances when the nominative case is used.
EllH
January 12, 2007 - 02:28 pm
Two instances of nom would be as the subject of the sentence and the noun following a linking verb.
next-
what case is used for the direct object?
GeneJ
January 12, 2007 - 03:00 pm
next- what case is used for the direct object?
Accusative
What preposition does one use to indicate "under"?
EllH
January 12, 2007 - 05:44 pm
prep. for under is sub
next- when is preposition cum used?
cook1
January 12, 2007 - 06:03 pm
when is preposition cum used?
With the " Ablative of Accompaniment".
Next: Which case gives a command to or ask a person a question?
Ken1
January 13, 2007 - 12:39 pm
Which case gives a command to or ask a person a question?
This is the vocative case.
Next:What is the case for indirect objects?
Ginny
January 13, 2007 - 05:17 pm
Wonderful work and I'm so enjoying the background, I agree, Marni.
JIW, thank you for that wonderful Tennyson, I love Tennyson and you don't see him any more, we'll remedy that in the Books section of Seniornet when classes are out.
Cook, thank you for that wonderful background of the Story of the 9 Books, I got quite caught up in the telling of it, I had not realized that she kept asking the same price for the reduced volumes!! Wonderful tale.
Marni, those are super, Julius Caesar actually conceived of a plan to dig a channel and it's so regular that it's thought perhaps Augustus did, but your link to the Cave of the Sibyl is the next best thing to being there, it's just like that and so well explained. I spent an eternity reading that, and have added it to the L&A, many thanks, this is super!
GREAT work here, all around!
Ginny
January 13, 2007 - 05:30 pm
Oh for heaven's sake, I forgot what I came in here for I got so bemused by all the great information, here's a game, an excellent self test of 20 Questions on the Pronouns Ego, Tu, Nos and Vos done by EA one of our Classics Volunteers it's a good review, if you'd like to give it a whirl.
mouseketeer
January 14, 2007 - 05:06 am
The case for indirect objects is the dative case.
Next: when is ablative of agent used?
cook1
January 14, 2007 - 11:59 am
when is ablative of agent used?
The ablative of agent with (a or ab) is used with a passive verb to show the person by whom something is done.
Next: What ending would you look for in accusative plural, male?
Ginny
January 15, 2007 - 06:08 am
GREAT JOB! and HIST! I see Hannibal coming and Fabius Maximus and Niobe, all fascinating figures of history, coming tomorrow!! Let's be ready, it's not every day an army with elephants marches on Rome across the Alps!
See L&A for class work today and see if you can find out anything about Hannibal, keep watching the heading, I do think I hear elephants on the way.
I'll go first with the class work challenges while we're happily researching Hannibal:
they shall have been received________________________________ (see vocabulary page 181, we'll use these only~!)
mouseketeer
January 15, 2007 - 07:03 am
recepti erint they will have been recovered. I couldn't find re-
ceived on this vocabulary list. page 181, recipio?
Next: you (s.) will be ordered.
formerfarmer
January 15, 2007 - 07:22 am
[edit] Stories recounted in Ovid's Metamorphoses
Although she was a mortal, the Sibyl lived about a thousand years. This came about when Apollo granted her a wish; she took up a handful of sand and asked to live for as many years as the grains of sand she held. But she didn't ask for enduring youth and Apollo allowed her body to wither away because the Sibyl did not consent to have sex. Her body grew smaller with age and eventually was kept in a jar (ampulla). Eventually only her voice was left. (Metamorphoses 14)
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumaean_Sibyl"
formerfarmer
January 15, 2007 - 07:26 am
you (s.) will be ordered
iuberis Ok now iubeo is 2nd so it's iubēberis for the singular
next:they will have been removed
Ginny
January 15, 2007 - 07:28 am
Good one, Bill, that takes care of the living so long as the grains of sand question and also the fun question of the jar (harkening to the Pirates of the Caribbean movie Dead Man's Chest with the jar of dirt, surely the funniest thing showing at the moment, Cap'n Jack dancing around hollering "I've got a jar of dirrrt." hahahaa I hope he wins something tonight, he deserves it and will be overlooked at the Oscars.
They will have been removed_________________
Ginny
January 15, 2007 - 07:32 am
I would advise, since we're working here with some new verbs, that you write out for your own convenience the 4 Principal Parts, just to keep them in front of you before you give your one word answers.
CubFan
January 15, 2007 - 07:40 am
# 6. Two quotes:
Sortes Virgilianae Telling one's fortune by consulting the Ζneid of Virgil. You take up the book, open it at random, and the passage you touch at random with your finger is the oracular response. Severus consulted the book, and read these words: "Forget not thou, O Roman, to rule the people with royal sway." Gordianus, who reigned only a few days, hit upon this verse: "Fate only showed him on the earth, but suffered him not to tarry." But, certainly, the most curious instance is that given by Dr. Wellwood respecting King Charles I. and Lord Falkland while they were both at Oxford. Falkland, to amuse the king, proposed to try this kind of augury, and the king hit upon bk. iv. ver. 881-893, the gist of which passage is that. "evil wars would break out, and the king lose his life." Falkland, to laugh the matter off, said he would show his Majesty how ridiculously the "lot" would foretell the next fate, and he lighted on book xi. ver. 230-237, the lament of Evander for the untimely death of his son Pallas. King Charles, in 1643, mourned over his noble friend, who was shot through the body in the battle of Newbury. Source: Brewer's Dictionary.
The sortes Vigilianae and Homericae, a method of divination apparently widespread in antiquity, and yet more widespread in the Middle Ages and Renaissance. The method consists in the random selection of a line or sentence from Homer or Virgil, usually done by opening one's book at random and then letting a staff fall on the page; or else by throwing dice. The persistence of this rite into the Renaissance and beyond seems to be one of those cases where refinement and learning, far from edging out superstition, depend on it for their very survival. Erudite rationalism and dumb superstition are shown to be two sides of the same coin.
Such methods of divination have long been applied to sacred texts. They still are, no doubt; but there can't be many people today who use the pagan classics in this way. Still, every reader of Dante knows that Virgil, the poet's guide to the ins and outs of sin and redemption, was a proselytizing Christian avant la lettre. And Virgil's books, in the Middle Ages and Renaissance, were sacred texts, a reputation that relied mostly on people's appreciation of the Messianic flavour of the fourth eclogue. In the Purgatorio, Dante meets the ancient Roman poet Statius, who explains how he became Christian after reading this very poem (a poem written before the birth of Christ, don't forget).
Homeric lots had a long history in antiquity: Socrates in prison used them to determine the day on which he was to die. The Roman emperor Marcus Opellius Macrinus fell upon a line in the Iliad that told him his time in the top job would not last long: sure enough, he was deposed and executed by a rival within fourteen months. Homeric lots told Brutus that Pompey would lose the battle of Pharsalus. One wonders why he didn't switch sides there and then, instead of waiting to do it after the inevitable defeat.
Plenty of emperors used Virgilian lots to figure out their fate (among them Alexander Severus, Hadrian, Gordian II, and Claudius II), but, in contrast to those that diced with Homer, these seem almost always to have got a positive response: your reign will be long, you will defeat the enemies of Rome, you know the drill. I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that the Iliad (much more popular than the Odyssey for this sort of thing) is all about war and slaughter and being killed in imaginatively brutal ways, whereas the Aeneid tempers that stuff with a fair bit of the old 'Rome is great, Empire's definitely the way to go' (pace, of course, the revisionist readers of Virgil's epic who see it as essentially antagonistic to Augustan ideology).
Using Homer and Virgil to determine their fate didn't seem to do much good for any of these people, since they had no choice but to fulfil the prophecy and get on with things. The destinies predicted by Homeric and Virgilian lots at least, those recorded by history are suspiciously self-fulfilling, almost as if the historical instance has been chosen retroactively to match the verse. Funny, that: destiny's a rum old deal.
Thomas Browne's Pseudodoxia Epidemica (about which I made some nugatory remarks here) has a whole section devoted to the debunking of beliefs in the efficacy of Virgilian lots. There is a footnote to this section, a late addition by another hand, which is worth quoting in full, if only for the deliciously laconic conclusion:
King Charles I. tried the sortes Virgilianζ, as is related by Wellwood in the following passage:
"The King being at Oxford during the civil wars, went one day to see the public library, where he was showed among other books, a Virgil nobly printed, and exquisitely bound. The Lord Falkland, to divert the king, would have his majesty make a trial of his fortune by the sortes Virgilianζ, which every body knows was an usual kind of augury some ages past. Whereupon the king opening the book, the period which happened to come up, was that part of Dido's imprecation against Ζneas; which Mr. Dryden translates thus:
Yet let a race untam'd, and haughty foes,
His peaceful entrance with dire arms oppose.
Oppress'd with numbers in th'unequal field,
His men discourag'd and himself expell'd,
Let him for succour sue from place to place,
Torn from his subjects, and his son's embrace,
First let him see his friends in battle slain,
And their untimely fate lament in vain:
And when at length the cruel war shall cease,
On hard conditions may he buy his peace;
Nor let him then enjoy supreme command,
But fall untimely by some hostile hand,
And lie unburied in the common sand.
"It is said that King Charles seemed concerned at this accident...."
Ginny
January 15, 2007 - 07:46 am
And well he might! Super job Cook (kind of makes one want to do the Vergilian lot on his own, huh? I am half afraid to, being of a superstitious nature, myself). I think I'll pass but it might be FUN!
Ginny
January 15, 2007 - 08:01 am
They will have been removed_______________
fdobbs
January 15, 2007 - 08:17 am
remoti erunt---they will have been removed
next: you (pl.) will have been ordered
mouseketeer
January 15, 2007 - 08:49 am
you (pl) will have been ordered
iubeO, iubEre, iussI, iussus,a,um
iussi erint eritis, and it's only erint when it's connected to the verb, otherwise erunt, good work getting the right passive form tho.
Next: they have driven back
marni0308
January 15, 2007 - 10:00 am
The pronoun quiz was fun!
they have driven back - redēgērunt
Next: you (pl) had been ordered
fdobbs
January 15, 2007 - 10:19 am
iusssui eratis--you(pl.) had been orderd
next: we were recovering
EllH
January 15, 2007 - 12:38 pm
we were recovering
recepio recipere recepi receptus
recipebamus
next they will have been removed
cook1
January 15, 2007 - 12:46 pm
they will have been removed
remoti erunt
Next: You wash and also dry the dishes.
Hella
January 15, 2007 - 01:30 pm
Happy New Year, fellow students, I've been away over the holidays and just got back last week. I still have some reading to do in the classroom to catch up, but I'm caught up with the homework (I think).
Hella
You wash and also dry the dishes
Lavas et etiam patinās aresces. pretty darn good! arescis ....
Cook, I'm hoping this is no joke!
Next: we have been recovered
Let's use only verbs on the two pages indicated, please.
Welcome back, Intrepid Traveler!
GeneJ
January 15, 2007 - 02:02 pm
Next: we have been recovered
recptī sumus recepti
Next: we will have been recovered
EllH
January 15, 2007 - 02:38 pm
recipio recipere recepi receptus
you will have been recovered-recepti erimus close! This is we: you want recepti eritis
next- it has been reduced
fdobbs
January 15, 2007 - 03:14 pm
it has been reduced---redactum est
next: you(sg.) will be driven back
cook1
January 15, 2007 - 03:20 pm
Hope your holidays were exciting and fun Hella...welcome back.
it has been reduced
redigō, redigere, redēgī, redāctus = drive back, reduce
redāctus est sooo close! IT= redactum est.
Next: It has been removed.
EllH
January 15, 2007 - 03:33 pm
removeo-removEre removi remotus it has been removed
remotum erat sooo close, this is like watching a slot machine ahahahah remotum EST, erat means had
next-they will have been ordered
marni0308
January 15, 2007 - 03:48 pm
they will have been ordered - iussī erunt
Next: he was reduced
formerfarmer
January 15, 2007 - 04:19 pm
he was reduced
redigo, redigere, redegi, redactus
redactus es this is you, you want est
next: it will be taken back
marni0308
January 15, 2007 - 04:36 pm
I found a clearly-written piece about the Punic Wars. Here's info about the 2nd Punic War and Hannibal:
The Second Punic War: 218-202 BC Following its defeat in the First Punic War, Carthage rebuilt its strength by expanding its empire in Spain. Growing increasingly anxious, the Romans had imposed a treaty on Carthage not to expand their empire past the Ebro river in Spain. However, when a small city in Spain, Saguntum, approached Rome asking for Roman friendship and alliance, the Romans couldn't resist having a friendly ally right in the heart of the Carthaginian Iberian empire.
A few years later, however, in 221 BC, a young man, only twenty-five years old, assumed command over Carthaginian Spain:
Hannibal. At first, Hannibal gave the Saguntines wide berth for he wished to avoid coming into conflict with Rome. But the Saguntines were flush with confidence in their new alliance and began playing politics with other Spanish cities. Hannibal, despite direct threats from Rome, attacked Saguntum and conquered it.
The Romans attempted to solve the problem with diplomacy and demand that Carthage dismiss Hannibal and send him to Rome. When Carthage refused, the second Punic War began in 218 BC. Rome, however, was facing a formidable opponent; in the years following the first Punic War, Carthage had created a powerful empire in Spain with a terrifyingly large army. Hannibal marched that terrible army out of Spain and across Europe and, in September of 218, he crossed the Alps with his army and entered Italy on a war of invasion. Although his army was tired from the journey, he literally smashed the Roman armies he encountered in northern Italy. Within two months, he had conquered the whole of northern Italy, with the exception of two cities. These spectacular victories brought a horde of Gauls from the north to help him, fifty thousand or more; his victory over Rome, as he saw it, would be guaranteed if he could convince Roman allies and subject cities to join Carthage.
The Romans were divided as to whether they could beat Hannibal in open warfare and they knew that he and his army were alone and far from any supplies. Despite Hannibal's certainty that Roman allies would join him, the allies remained faithful to Rome. So on the eve of his invasion of Rome, Hannibal steered south. The Romans, desperate because of their losses, asked
Quintus Fabius Maximus to become absolute dictator of Rome. Fabius determined to avoid open warfare at any cost and simply shadowed and harassed the Carthaginian army until they were weak enough to be engaged with openly. His instinct was to wait out Hannibal; he was hated for this policythe Romans called him "The Delayer" and eventually removed him from power. But when Hannibal marched into Cannae in southern Italy and started decimating the countryside in 216 BC, the two inexperienced consuls which had replaced Fabius as generals of the army sent an army of eighty thousand soldiers against him. This army, vastly outnumbering the Carthaginian army, was completely wiped out by Hannibal' "pincer" strategy: the largest defeat Rome ever suffered. The battle had proven that Fabius was right all along to avoid direct battles, so the Romans went back to his strategy of waiting out Hannibal. Roman allies in the south of Italy literally ran to Hannibal's side; the whole of Sicily allied itself with the Carthaginians. In addition, the king of Macedon, Philip V, who controlled most of the mainland of Greece, allied himself with Hannibal and began his own war against Roman possessions in 215 BC.
The situation looked bad for the Romans; however, none of the central Italian allies had gone over to Hannibal's side after Cannae. The Romans had been chastened by their defeat and absolutely refused to go against Hannibal, whose army moved around the Italian countryside absolutely unopposed. Hannibal, however, was weak in numbers and in equipment. He didn't have enough soldiers to lay seige to cities such as Rome, and he didn't have either the men or equipment to storm those cities by force. All he could do was roam the countryside and lay waste to it. In 211, he marched right up the walls of Rome, but he never laid siege to it. So confident were the Romans, that on the day that Hannibal marched around the walls of Rome with his cavalry, the land on which he had camped was sold at an auction in Rome, and it was sold at full price!
The Romans, however, very shrewdly decided to fight the war through the back door. They knew that Hannibal was dependent on Spain for future supplies and men, so they appointed a young, strategically brilliant man as proconsul and handed him the imperium over Spain. This move was unconstitutional, for this young man had never served as consul. His name:
Publius Cornelius Scipio (237-183 BC). Scipio, who would later be called Scipio Africanus for his victory over Carthage (in Africa), by 206 had conquered all of Spain, which was converted into two Roman provinces. Hannibal was now left high and dry in Italy.
Scipio then crossed into Africa in 204 BC and took the war to the walls of Carthage itself. This forced the Carthaginians to sue for peace with Rome; part of the treaty demanded that Hannibal leave the Italian peninsula. Hannibal was one of the great strategic generals in history; all during his war with Rome he never once lost a major battle, although he had lost a couple small skirmishes. Now, however, he was forced to retreat; he had, despite winning every battle, lost the war. When he returned to Carthage, the Carthaginians took heart and rose up against Rome in one last gambit in 202 BC. At Zama in northern Africa, Hannibal, fighting against Scipio and his army, met his first defeat. Rome reduced Carthage to a dependent state; Rome now controlled the whole of the western Mediterranean including northern Africa.
This was the defining historical experience of the Romans. They had faced certain defeat with toughness and determination and had won against overwhelming odds. Their system of alliances had held firm; while Hannibal had depended on the allies running to his side, only the most remote Roman allies, those in the south and Siciliy, left the Roman alliance. For the rest of Roman history, the character of being Roman would be distilled in the histories of this seemingly desperate war against Carthage. The Second Punic War turned Rome from a regional power into an international empire: it had gained much of northern Africa, Spain, and the major islands in the western Mediterranean. Because Philip V of Macedon had allied himself with Hannibal and started his own war of conquest, the second Punic War forced Rome to turn east in wars of conquest against first Philip and then other Hellenistic kingdoms. The end result of the second Punic War, in the end, was the domination of the known world by Rome.
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/ROME/PUNICWAR.HTM
JIW
January 15, 2007 - 04:39 pm
he was reduced
redigo, redigere, redegi, redactus
redactus est
Ginny: May I go back to message #210? Mouseketeer asked about the verb receive, and you responded that it is recipio. UH gives the definition for recipio as take back or recover. In the English-Latin dictionary at the back, receive is given as accipio.Are these verbs interchangeable?
I don't know that they are interchangeable but accipio to me means accept, take and receive but it means a lot of other things too.
Recipio is in the same boat, it does mean take back, draw back, fetch back but it also means regain, recover, receive, accept and take to oneself, as well as receive hospitably into a place, take possession of, conquer, accept, admit, allow, guarantee, promise, be responsible for, etc.
So when we're going from English to Latin I guess you could use either but we'll find the ancients were sort of specific. In an exercise either is fine. (I guess I tend to think of them by their first letters, actually, never noticed that before.) Next: we shall have departed
Ginny
January 15, 2007 - 05:16 pm
Marni that is a brillant explanation of Hannibal in Italy, thank you! And then came the famous Carthago Delenda Est! Delenda Est Carthago! Carthago delenda est!
cook1
January 15, 2007 - 05:17 pm
we shall have departed
discēdō, discēdere, discessī, discessūrus = go away, depart
discēdierimus discesserimus
Next: You (sg.) open the gate.
JCollins
January 15, 2007 - 09:06 pm
The accusative case of porta is portam I believe.
Sticking with vocabulary on page 181 I don't see "open"--maybe it is order--so I will do: you sing--present of the verb order:
iubeo-iubere-iussi--iussus
iubes
next--they will order
Ken1
January 15, 2007 - 10:42 pm
they will order
iubēbunt
next: we had been ordered
JIW
January 15, 2007 - 11:13 pm
we had been ordered
iubeo, iubere, iussi, iussus
iussi eramus
Next: they were driving back
JIW
January 15, 2007 - 11:18 pm
Ginny: Thank you for the explanation of recipio vs accipio. Obviously in Latin, as in English,a word can have many meanings.
Ginny
January 16, 2007 - 03:18 am
Super work here! Absolutely correct, JIW, depending on the context. That is not to say you have to memorize a billion definitions or that anything is wishy washy, to the contrary, what happens is that this or that ancient author used the word in a certain way which may have caught on and if you are reading a new text and you see a word where your one definition seems not to fit, it's a good thing to know it MAY mean other things, depending.
Great work all around and wonderful Fascinating Facts as well and I'm interested to hear a couple of other facts that have come to my attention about our own classmates, so will get to those this week, but meanwhile let's begin our story, it looks like HANNIBAL has somehow made it through the Alps! I hear that he did something quite miraculous with a big boulder blocking his path, have any of you heard of it? I can't imagine mountain climbing, much less with an elephant, how on earth did he do that? Did he have "inside" help? Does anybody know how many he started with and how many he lost?
We need a hero to stop him! Let's translate and see if we get one!
Please take one sentence only, I'll begin:
Quintus Fabius Maximus......
mouseketeer
January 16, 2007 - 04:38 am
In the second Punic War, Hannibal ordered his men to fight with the Romans, but Quintus always went away nor remained in one place.
CubFan
January 16, 2007 - 06:25 am
5. Cu·mae (ky?'m?)
An ancient city and Greek colony of south-central Italy near present-day Naples. Founded c. 750 B.C., it is the earliest Greek settlement known in Italy. Cumae adopted Roman culture after the second century B.C. and gradually declined as neighboring cities rose to power.
Ancient city west of Naples, Italy. Probably the oldest Greek mainland colony in the West, it was home to the Cumaean Sibyl, whose cavern still exists. Founded c. 750 BC by Greeks from Chalcis, it came to control much of the Campanian plain. Taken by the Samnites in the 5th century BC, it was subjugated by Rome in 338 BC. Under the empire it became a quiet country town. It was destroyed in AD 1205. Remains of fortifications and graves from all these periods have been found throughout the area.
mouseketeer
January 16, 2007 - 07:22 am
Question: Did Hannibal have any help through those mountain passes
and what particularly hindered him, as if the terrain and the cold
and the lack of food was not an issue?
"While Hannibal's march through Gaul was relatively uncontested, the survival of his army through the Alps, let alone his subsequent victories was a marvelous achievement. Malnourished, weather-beaten and exhausted, the Carthaginian force was met with resistance by many of the local Gallic tribes. The Allobroges offered the first challenge by attacking the rear of his column. Other Celts harassed Hannibal's baggage trains, rolling large boulders from the heights onto the Carthaginian columns, causing panic and death among the victims. Fierce resistance throughout the march debilitated Hannibal's army. The cold altitudes of the Alps certainly were no benefit to some under-dressed tribal warriors in his forces. Cold and hungry, Hannibal and his army stormed a Gallic town on the 3rd day of the mountain hike. The resulting plunder offered some relief in the form of food and supplies, but constant pressure from the Celts, landslides, continuing bad weather and poor supply made the success of the operation all the more memorable. By the 15th day, Hannibal stepped down into the foothills of northern Italy. With only 20,000 infantry, 6,000 cavalry and only a few remaining elephants, his army was decimated by the journey. Fortunately for Hannibal, the Celts on the Italian side of the Alps were far friendlier and Gallic recruits pushed the Carthaginians back up to between 30,000 and 40,000 men. Meanwhile, the Romans were waiting in Cisalpine Gaul under Scipio the Elder. With a small force already positioned to keep the Gauls in check, Scipio moved to intercept Hannibal. At the Battle of Ticinus, in late 218 BC, the 2 forces were first engaged in a small confrontation. Light troops send by Scipio to scout the enemy were met by Numidian cavalry and soundly defeated. As only a prelude of things to come, the most significant result was the wounding of Scipio and the opening of additional Gallic recruitment to Hannibal. The Romans were forced to withdraw to Placentia, under Manlius, to plan for another attack. With the minor victory at Ticinus, but more importantly the withdrawal of the Romans, Gallic and Ligurian recruits were now eager to join against Rome. Hannibal's army, significantly supplemented, was now ready to push full force into Italy. At the Trebbia River, the Romans combined the forces of Scipio's remaining legions with those of Ti. Sempronius Longus. In December of 218 BC, with Scipio out of commission from his wounds, the eager Sempronius threw caution to the wind and advanced against Hannibal. The Battle of the Trebbia River was the first significant engagement of the war and the first real test for Hannibal and his army. He brilliantly anticipated Sempronius' impetuousness and set up an ambush. Before the impending fight, Hannibal sent a force of 2,000, 1,000 each of infantry and cavalry, under the command of his brother Mago to conceal themselves in the riverbeds. When dawn broke, Numidian cavalry harassed the Roman camp, angering Sempronius and stirring him to action. The main Roman army approached the Trebbia, pushing the Numidians back across, completely unaware of the trap set for them. Hannibal waited with his army arranged as a screen with 10,000 cavalry and elephants, flanking the infantry of 30,000. Sempronius faced him with upwards of 40,000 men. Roman light infantry (velites) met the enemy first and were badly beaten, though they would be largely responsible for eliminating the remainder of Hannibal's few elephants. Numidian cavalry crushed the Roman cavalry on the flanks and things were bad for Sempronius from the start. When the main armies met, the situation stabilized slightly for Rome, but the flanking pressure from the superior Numidian cavalry soon began to turn the tide. At the critical juncture, Mago's ambush was sprung, and the Romans were finished. Demoralized by the bitter cold of December in northern Italy, the Romans were routed, cut down as they fled. In the end, nearly half of Sempronius' force was lost, about 15 to 20,000 men. The remainder of the Roman army managed to escape to Placentia. Hannibal's losses were far less. His elephants were gone, but of his regular army only the newly recruited Gauls suffered at all. At Trebbia, Hannibal proved his superior leadership in understanding the psychology of his opponent, his tactical strategy and in propaganda warfare. With his victory, Hannibal released the bulk of any prisoners captured with the intention of securing favor among Rome's allies throughout Italy. While theoretically an excellent concept, it was this sort of continuing hope for open rebellion that played a major factor in his eventual undoing."
http://www.unrv.com/empire/invasion-of-italy.php
GeneJ
January 16, 2007 - 07:22 am
Marni:
Loved your information on Hannibal; I especially liked that you also provided a link to the source. That gave me an opportunity to review the First Punic War as well. Thanks.
Gene
GeneJ
January 16, 2007 - 07:25 am
Mouseketeer:
Nancy, You're right in there with timely information. No sooner was the question asked than you posted the answer. Very useful. thanks.
The provided link was also very useful.
Gene
mouseketeer
January 16, 2007 - 07:29 am
Question: How many elephants and men did Hannibal start out with and
how many is it thought he emerged with?
Taken along with message #243.
http://phoenicia.org/punicwar.html Finally on the 15th day, after a journey of five months from Cartagena, with 20,000 infantry, 6,000 cavalry, and only a few of the original 38 elephants, Hannibal descended into Italy, having surmounted the difficulties of climate and terrain, the guerrilla tactics of inaccessible tribes, and the major difficulty of commanding a body of men diverse in race and language under conditions to which they were ill fitted.
It would seem by other reports that none of the elephants survived in the end.
mouseketeer
January 16, 2007 - 07:30 am
Thanks, Gene
I had heard about the Punic Wars and the elephants, but found the
info rather facinating also.
Nancy
mouseketeer
January 16, 2007 - 07:41 am
Here are two stories about rocks. View the original website for two
authors point of view.
http://www.livius.org/ha-hd/hannibal/alps_text.html The enemy had gained the higher ground and could move along the slopes, and from there some of them rolled down rocks, while others struck down their opponents with stones at close quarters. The natives, springing from their places of concealment, fiercely assaulted front and rear, leaping into the fray, hurling missiles, rolling down rocks from the heights above.
The Carthaginians were thrown into such confusion and felt so threatened by these tactics that Hannibal was compelled to spend the night with only half his force near a certain bare rock which offered some protection. Here he was separated from his cavalry. and from the mule train, and waited to cover their advance, until after a whole night's struggle they slowly and with great difficulty made their way out of the gorge.
fdobbs
January 16, 2007 - 07:44 am
I'm not sure if this is correct.
Without victories Hannibal was not able to reduce Italy into a province.
formerfarmer
January 16, 2007 - 08:10 am
Maximus by constant work even took back the Italian town Tarentum.
No guarantee on this one.
EllH
January 16, 2007 - 08:30 am
Livius had been in this town but the town was let go and he removed his men to the citadel.
fdobbs
January 16, 2007 - 08:58 am
Maximus ordered the men to advance to the gates of the town and
take back the town; then he also advanced to the bow?????
fdobbs
January 16, 2007 - 09:05 am
Cumae
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Ancient ruins of CumaeCumae (Cuma, in Italian) is an ancient Greek settlement lying to the northwest of Naples in the Italian region of Campania. The settlement is believed to have been founded in the 8th century BC by Greeks from the city of Cuma and Chalkis in Euboea upon the earlier dwellings of indigenous, Iron-Age peoples whom they supplanted. Eusebius placed Cumae's Greek foundation at 1050 BC. Its name comes from the Greek word kymι, meaning wave - perhaps in reference to the big waves that the peninsula of Κyme in Euboea has.
There is also a small, modern Greek Euboean city called Kyme (Kύμη) as well as the excavated ancient Greek city of Cuma, the source point for the Cumae alphabet.
Cumae was the first Greek colony on the mainland of Italy (Magna Graecia), there having been earlier starts on the islands of Ischia and Sicily by colonists from the Euboean cities of Chalcis (Χαλκίς) and possibly Eretria (Ερέτρια) or Cuma (Kύμη).
Cumae is perhaps most famous as the seat of the Cumaean Sibyl. Her sanctuary is now open to the public. The colony was also the entry point onto the Italian peninsula for the Cumean alphabet, a variant of which was adapted by the Romans.
The colony spread throughout the area over the 6th and centuries BC, gaining sway over Puteoli and Misenum and, thereafter, the founding of Neapolis in 470 BC.
The growing power of the Cumaean Greeks, led many indigenous tribes of the region, notably the Dauni and Aurunci with the leadership of the Capuan Etruscans. This coalition was defeated by the Cumaeans in 524 BC under the direction of Aristodemus. The combined fleets of Cumae and Syracuse defeated the Etruscans at the Battle of Cumae in 474 BC.
Lucius Tarquinius Superbus, the last legendary King of Rome, lived his life in exile at Cumae after the establishment of the Roman Republic.
Cumae was also a place where a widely influential early Christian work The Shepherd of Hermas was said to have been inspired by way of visions.
The colony was built on a large rise, the seaward side of which was used as a bunker and gun emplacement by the Germans during World War II.
In Roman mythology, there is an entrance to the underworld located at Avernus, a crater near Cumae, and was the route Aeneas used to descend to the Underworld.
Coordinates: 40°50′31″N, 14°03′21″E
Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumae"
Categories: Euboean colonies of Magna Graecia | 8th century BC
mouseketeer
January 16, 2007 - 09:07 am
Fran, I assumed arcem was the same as in Note 7, therefore, he ad-
vanced to the citadel. I think this is one of the most difficult
passages we have had to translate without being awkward.
fdobbs
January 16, 2007 - 09:13 am
Hannibal's Fire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In 218 B.C. The Carthaginian king, Hannibal, stood atop the lofty Col del la Traversette pass in the Alps and looked down upon the mighty Roman Empire, the kingdom he had come to destroy.
Inflamed with hatred, he drove his tattered army down the mountainside. Before his quest for glory could be realized, however, he had to overcome the last obstacle blocking his path - an enormous rock, wedged into the valley floor, that prevented his passage. It was impossible to move his chariots and wagons through the pass unless the rock was dislodged and moved out of the way.
Attempts to crack the rock with picks and hammers failed. Sacrifices and incantations likewise produced no results. Desperate and impatient, Hannibal cried out, "Burn it!" To his half-dead troops, this irrational command seemed mad. Surely Hannibal wasn't serious.
Nevertheless, within a few hours felled trees were clustered around the rock to fuel that Hannibal had commanded. When the wood was laid, the soldiers lit the fire and watched in fascination as the flames formed an inferno around the rock. Finally unable to withstand the heat, the rock yielded with a deafening "CRACK!" heard down the valley. The impenetrable rock had split in two. Hannibal and his army descended upon Rome, and the course of world history was changed forever.
Many people believe it's possible to change bad people into good people with education, an improved environment, increased economic assistance, or special programs. As helpful as those things may be, they are merely picks and hammers scratching an enormous rock. Only God is able to change the human heart. In one sense, when we spread the good news of the Gospel of Christ (or when we serve others in the name of Christ), we lay around the hearts of people firewood to be lit by the power of the holy spirit for the purpose of changing people from the inside out.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're interested, there is more
fdobbs
January 16, 2007 - 09:15 am
Thanks Nancy, I missed that note somehow, it certainly makes more
sense now. Fran
marni0308
January 16, 2007 - 09:49 am
There Livius, haughty because he had held the citadel, said to Fabius: "You took back Tarentum because of my effort."
(or something like that)
marni0308
January 16, 2007 - 09:53 am
Fascinating information provided here. Thanks, everyone!
marni0308
January 16, 2007 - 10:04 am
I found something interesting - translations of 2 sources of info about Hannibal crossing the Alps, along with a map and some photos.........
"the two main texts about Hannibal's crossing of the Alps are placed next to each other. There are so many similarities that we can be sure that both authors shared the same source. On the other hand, there are striking differences: e.g., Polybius of Megalopolis states that Hannibal's soldiers could see Italy from the pass, and Titus Livy writes that they saw Italy only after they had started the descent.
http://www.livius.org/ha-hd/hannibal/alps_text.html
marni0308
January 16, 2007 - 10:21 am
In the Livy translation above, the narrative regarding the heated rock goes:
"The next task was to construct some sort of passable track down the precipice, for by no other route could the army proceed. It was necessary to cut through rock, a problem they solved by the ingenious application of heat and moisture; large trees were felled and lopped, and a huge pile of timber erected; this, with the opportune help of a strong wind, was set on fire, and when the rock was sufficiently heated the men's rations of sour wine were flung upon it, to render it friable. They then got to work with picks on the heated rock, and opened a sort of zigzag track, to minimize the steepness of the descent, and were able, in consequence, to get the pack animals, and even the elephants, down it."
JIW
January 16, 2007 - 10:33 am
Fabius responded: That is true; I took back the town which you let go.
EllH
January 16, 2007 - 10:34 am
Fabius responded: "It is true, Livius: I took back the town because you left."
JIW
January 16, 2007 - 10:50 am
Going back to #249, I translated this sentence as: Without victories, Hannibal was not able to drive the Italian back into the province.
JIW
January 16, 2007 - 10:52 am
Maximus did not remove the statues of the gods from the town of Tarentum but, because the gods were unfriendly to the Tarentians, he ordered the Tarentians to keep the statues in the town.
I'm not sure about this.
marni0308
January 16, 2007 - 11:02 am
I thought this was a tough translation.
GeneJ
January 16, 2007 - 11:19 am
Marni:
I thought this was a tough translation.
Ditto!
Gene
GeneJ
January 16, 2007 - 11:22 am
If I may, starting with the challenges.
Next: Present Tense Active 2nd person pl. of audiō.
audiō, audīre, audīvī, audītus, a, um
marni0308
January 16, 2007 - 11:27 am
Here is a wonderful Goya painting of "Hannibal the Conqueror, viewing Italy from the Alps for the first time":
fdobbs
January 16, 2007 - 12:15 pm
auditis--you(pl.) are hearing--you hear
next:Past Perfect 3rd.pers.pl.--propero-are-avi-atus
EllH
January 16, 2007 - 01:35 pm
properaverant-you had been offered you had offered
next-suscipio suscipere suscepi susceptus
2nd person plural-perfect tense
formerfarmer
January 16, 2007 - 02:24 pm
next-suscipio suscipere suscepi susceptus
2nd person plural-perfect tense
suscepitis- suscepistis you (pl) are undertaking
next: propono, 3d, pl, future tense
EllH
January 16, 2007 - 02:29 pm
Oops-properaverant-they had been hastened (I think) not Passive: they had hastened
marni0308
January 16, 2007 - 03:24 pm
suscepi susceptus
2nd person plural - perfect tense
Would this be suscEpistis in the Perfect tense? - you undertook?
Next: Depart - 3rd person sg, Past Perfect
Hella
January 16, 2007 - 03:47 pm
Depart - 3rd person sg, Past Perfect
discesserat
Next: remove 2nd person sing. perfect tense
JCollins
January 16, 2007 - 05:56 pm
Next: remove 2nd person sing. perfect tense
removeo-removere-removi--remotus
removisti
next--3rd person plural future of "go away or depart"
Ken1
January 16, 2007 - 09:21 pm
next--3rd person plural future of "go away or depart"
discēdent
next - third person singular passive voice for remove.
Ginny
January 17, 2007 - 04:25 am
Felix dies and a bright good morning to you!
All homework submitted by 8 pm last night is corrected, anything after 8:01 will be returned tonight.
As Wednesday is our day off for homework, and I've had some requests for parsing particular passages of interest in email, let's do that today in class, a good use of class time!
Wonderful wonderful background material! THINK how Hannibal's soldiers must have felt when that giant rock barred their path and he knew to do (I've always heard a story of the combination of fire and wine) that! IMAGINE! How would YOU feel? The National Geographic book Greece and Rome has an entire chapter on Hannibal and this is vividly portrayed, a fascinating personage from 200 years BC, still talked about today.
See L&A, let's see how we can work some of the more tricky examples out in class, first up......? You to choose!
mouseketeer
January 17, 2007 - 05:21 am
Starting with the first sentence, "bello Punico secundo"
prepositional phrase:
in preposition
bello noun ablative case neuter singular
Punico secundo: adjectives describing bello agree in case, number,
and gender.
Ginny
January 17, 2007 - 05:32 am
Great beginning! With the Ablatives, do tell also the use of the Ablative, in this case, Ablative of Time When.
EllH
January 17, 2007 - 06:28 am
Hannibal-nominative-sub of sentence
viros accusative plural direct object
JCollins
January 17, 2007 - 06:46 am
I was not able to be here yesterday for the translation. I note that there were 2 different versions of the third sentence.I have cut and pasted the 2 versions. Perhaps we could look at the phrase--
A--Without victories Hannibal was not able to reduce Italy into a province.
B--I translated this sentence as: Without victories, Hannibal was not able to drive the Italian back into the province.
My question relates to "Italiam in provinciam"--I note the word Italiam means Italy--perhaps the translation "Italian" is a loose translation but the better translation--I like the first translation the best--that is, "reduce Italy into a province"
What do you think?
Good discussion. Italiam is the word for the country and they would use a masculine plural for Italian so here we must say Without victories Hannibal was not able to reduce Italy into a provice.
This IS a difficult passage. It's not that it's suddenly getting "harder," it's that the style has suddenly changed, it's awkward, I call this the dreaded "Dr. D" syndrome, somebody (Dr. Difficult) who should have initialled his passage has written this the best he can with a controlled vocabulary and it's not....as good as it could be. Still all translations and voices are ours, like Hannibal, to overcome.
GeneJ
January 17, 2007 - 06:57 am
bellō pūnicō secundō Hannibal virōs cum Rōmanīs pugnāre iubēbat sed Q. Fabius Maximus semper discēdēbat neque in ūnō locō manēbat.
This is quite a first sentence. I just posted since the L&A instructions suggested that we first post an entire sentence, and then to parse sections.
fdobbs
January 17, 2007 - 08:16 am
cum--prep with abl.Romanis
marni0308
January 17, 2007 - 08:52 am
continuing with the first sentence.....
pugnāre iubēbat:
pugnare - infinitive "to fight"; seems to be acting as a Direct Object
iubēbat - verb, Imperfect, 3rd person singular - "was ordering" - I noticed we generally are translating this using the Past tense, though
JCollins
January 17, 2007 - 08:55 am
Bello Punico secundo--a phrase that is the object of prep. in --ablative case
If anybody has some thoughts on my post #281 I would appreciate it-thanks Jack
marni0308
January 17, 2007 - 09:14 am
sed Q. Fabius Maximus
sed - conjunction "but" connecting 2 independent clauses
Q. (Quintus) Fabius Maximus - name, proper noun, and subject of 2nd independent clause
The "Q." caused me a lot of trouble until - finally - the lightbulb went off. The footnote said it meant "Quintus" which I got, but for some stupid reason I thought the period meant the end of a sentence. I think I spent 10 minutes trying to figure out the meaning of the first sentence before I realized it was a compound sentence which hadn't ended yet!
EllH
January 17, 2007 - 09:29 am
Jack, I used Without victories Hannibal was not able to drive back Italy into the province. My reasoning was in with acc provinciam was translated as into
marni0308
January 17, 2007 - 09:45 am
I'm off to check on my parents. Will check in tonight.
Marni
JCollins
January 17, 2007 - 10:25 am
Thank you--E11H-Jack
JCollins
January 17, 2007 - 10:34 am
semper is an adverb modifying verb discedebat
which is imperfect 3rd person singular
EllH
January 17, 2007 - 11:09 am
neque- adverb modifying manebat 3rd person sng. imperfect tense
he was never staying
mouseketeer
January 17, 2007 - 11:38 am
neque: conjunction
in preposition
uno adjective modifying loco
loco noun ablative of place in which
JCollins
January 17, 2007 - 12:34 pm
sine--preposition --victoriis--object of
preposition--ablative --feminine--plural
Hella
January 17, 2007 - 12:55 pm
Ginny, a propos Jack's sentence in post # 281: could that be translated as: "without victories Hannibal was not able to reduce Italy to a province"?
Hella
January 17, 2007 - 12:59 pm
victōriīs plural noun in the ablative (of means?) since used with sine
JCollins
January 17, 2007 - 01:44 pm
Hannibal-noun
non poterat--
non--used as an adverb modifying verb poterat-
-imperfect--3rd person singular
Hella --thanks for asking again--we now have 3 different translations--I am sure we will finally get to the bottom of it when Ginny returns. -Jack
mouseketeer
January 17, 2007 - 02:30 pm
I third the motion about Italiam ad provinciam. I couldn't under-
stand to what province he was trying to drive back Italy.
On to line 5
Maximus proper noun subject in nominative case
perpetuo adj. modifying labore
labore noun in ablative by means of
JCollins
January 17, 2007 - 03:51 pm
etiam --conjunction connecting two clauses
Tarentum oppidum --both in accusative case --object of verb recepit which is in the perfect case--3rd person singular--
Italiae--genitive case
Ken1
January 17, 2007 - 09:32 pm
I too had problems with the second sentence. I like Hella's translation the best. For some reason I kept trying to fit "drive back" for reigere. Reduce makes more sense and flows better.
Sentence 6 is next.
Līvius - Subject - General in charge of Tarentum
in hoc oppidō - ablative - in this town
fuerat - verb - third person pluperfect - had been
first pharse - Livius had been in this town
sed - conuction connecting the two phrases - but
oppidum - subject of next phrase - town
āmīserat - verb - pluperfect, third person singular - had lost
et - conjuction - connects another phrase - and
ad acrem - add with accusative - direct object - from the citadel
virōs - accusative - direct object - plural - men
remōverat - verb - pluperfect he had removed
so the second and third phrases:
but the town had been lost and he had removed the men from the citadel.
So now completely built:
Livius had been in this town but the town had been lost and he had removed the men from the citadel.
marni0308
January 17, 2007 - 09:57 pm
Maximus ad portAs oppidI:
Maximus - proper noun, subject
ad portAS - to the gates - prepositional phrase; ad, the preposition, takes an object in the accusative; portAs is a first declension noun in accusative case plural and object of the preposition
oppidI - of the town or the town's [gates] - noun is a 2nd declension neuter singular in genetive case showing possession
Ginny
January 18, 2007 - 07:24 am
Great work! I realize this is tough and it doesn't make for fun exercise, but it IS important and I really like the way you are doing it. If you'll all go back to post 281 (to do this is quite easy, see if you can remove the last three numbers in the address line above you from 288 to 281 and just hit go and it will return you OR just hit previous), I've put a note or two in there.
But instead of going thru the various posts after it I thought I'd just comment here, Marni on the Q. they do make you think, don't they? haahaa
Our first line starts with an Ablative of Time when (in the Second Punic War) and Hannibal was ordering or ordered his men (D.O>) to fight (pugnare) with the Romans (ablative of Accompaniment) but Quintus Fabius Maximus always would float like a butterfly...er..would run about, and neque (never) used to stay (manebat) in one place.
Hard to pin him down.
Fabius (Maximus) by constant work also managed to recover (or get back for the Romans) the town of Italy Tarentum.
So he's not just floating around listlessly.
Now a certain Livius (the commander of the town Tarentum) was in the town but he lost his town and had taken his men to the citadel.
This story now diverges from Hannibal and gets into a squabble between Livius and Maximus.
Now what did Livius mean by his statement?
How did Fabius (Maximus) interpret it, do you think?
What's going on about the gods of the town, apparently Fabius does not think they are much good luck?
This story is based on Cicero, De Senectute, 11. See what you can find that might help us understand what's going on?
Livius had lost his town and retired to a stronghold or citadel and held that one. Fabius retook the town Livius said HA, because of ..... What's his reasoning?
Tough one because there is so much left out, meanwhile Hannibal is skipping gaily over the countryside and we'll see him again!
Were you intrigued by the towns in the US with the names of these folks? Tarentum PA, Fabius? Hannibal MO (didn't Mark Twain come from Hannibal?)
Tarantula and tarantella? Read paragraph 237, great fun.
So we're in great shape to move on!
Is there ANY sentence in this passage you want help with now? Post it here and let's take a micro look. Otherwise we move on.
I'll go first, just a brief bit of verb work since we're about to plunge into Participle Land with a few Infinitives for good measure. We'll be working with the Passive Voice so let's be sure we know the difference in the Active and Passive, a great way to review:
it had been recovered______________/ it had recovered_____________
Hella
January 18, 2007 - 08:21 am
It had been recovered - Receptum erat passive
it had recovered recēperat active
Next: depart, 3rd pl. Perfect, active and passive
formerfarmer
January 18, 2007 - 08:36 am
depart, 3rd pl. Perfect, active and passive
discessit-they had departed-cant be passive
next: I will have been taken back, I have been taken back
JCollins
January 18, 2007 - 10:06 am
next: I will have been taken back, I have been taken back
I believe both of these sentences are passive:
passive-future perfect-discessus ero--I will have been taken back
active
--future perfect--discessero--I will have taken back
Next--verb- removeo ---3rd person plural -
active --past perfect
passive --past perfect
marni0308
January 18, 2007 - 10:10 am
discessErunt - they departed
Next: reduce - Imperfect 2nd person sing. Active and Passive
Ginny: I'm confused about something in our classroom assignment - "Remember IT is a neuter and IT wants to always, when agreement is needed, end in UM in the singular" - Can you explain and give examples please. Thanks!
EllH
January 18, 2007 - 10:24 am
reduce-redigebas active
passive redigebaris
order 2nd plural-future perfect active and passive
JCollins
January 18, 2007 - 11:11 am
order 2nd plural-future perfect active and passive
iussertis--active
issae eritis--passive
next--recover---3rd--plural--perfect-active and passive
mouseketeer
January 18, 2007 - 11:18 am
iubeo, iubEre, iussi, iussus,a, um
2nd person pl future perfect active iusseritis
2nd person pl future perfect passive iussi eritis
Next: it will have sailed, it will have been sailed
Ginny
January 18, 2007 - 11:42 am
Question: I'm confused about something in our classroom assignment - "Remember IT is a neuter and IT wants to always, when agreement is needed, end in UM in the singular" - Can you explain and give examples please. Thanks
Whenever the word IT appears in English, when you are doing Latin you need to be alert for IT.
In the Perfect Passive, PluPerfect Passive and Future Perfect Passive Tenses, IT will take a um ending.
It has been finished: factum est. Not factus or facta but factUM because IT is neuter.
Similarly,
It will have been done:
Factum erit
And it had been said:
Dictum erat.
The ending of the fourth Principal Part is both adjective and verb. The PART which is adjective ends in us, a, um, and the UM is for a neuter. "IT" is considered a neuter.
IT's the main thing that trips people in the UH homework.
On discedo, your book as noted gives discessurus for a 4th Principal Part, meaning it can't be made passive.
But why, then, has the noxious blue ink not moved in the example submitted above? Because discedo in other forms has the 4th Principal Part as discessus and so since it occurs that way in other texts and other authors, I can't mark it wrong?
All verbs are not that way. There is no passive of sum and a lot of others, so rule to follow, check for that UR in the 4th Principal Part and when in doubt, leave the Passive out.
mouseketeer
January 18, 2007 - 11:48 am
recover third person plural perfect active and passive
recipio, recipere, recepi, receptus
receperunt
recepti sunt
Next: you send, you are being sent
marni0308
January 18, 2007 - 11:54 am
Thank you, Ginny. That helps a lot!
Ginny
January 18, 2007 - 11:55 am
Euge!
GeneJ
January 18, 2007 - 02:19 pm
Next: you send, you are being sent
mittō, mittere, mīsī, missus
mittis --- you send
mitteris -- you are being sent (singular)
Next: They take back, they were taken back
GeneJ
January 18, 2007 - 02:38 pm
Ken1:
I really appreciated your posting in #299, You break down each part of the sentence and its meaning and conclude with a full translation of the line.
Since I'm playing a little catch up it's appreciated to have something so easy to follow and so thoroughly done.
Thanks.
Gene
CubFan
January 18, 2007 - 05:46 pm
Treatises on Friendship and Old Age
by Marcus Tullius Cicero
Take the case of Q. Fabius Maximus, the man, I mean, who recovered Tarentum. When I was a young man and he an old one, I was as much attached to him as if he had been my contemporary. For that great man serious dignity was tempered by courteous manners, nor had old age made any change in his character. True, he was not exactly an old man when my devotion to him began, yet he was nevertheless well on in life; for his first consulship fell in the year after my birth. When quite a stripling I went with him in his fourth consulship as a soldier in the ranks, on the expedition against Capua, and in the fifth year after that against Tarentum. Four years after that I was elected Quaestor, holding office in the consulship of Tuditanus and Cethegus, in which year, indeed, he as a very old man spoke in favour of the Cincian law "on gifts and fees."
Now this man conducted wars with all the spirit of youth when he was far advanced in life, and by his persistence gradually wearied out Hannibal, when rioting in all the confidence of youth. How brilliant are those lines of my friend Ennius on him!
For us, down beaten by the storms of fate,?One man by wise delays restored the State.?Praise or dispraise moved not his constant mood,?True to his purpose, to his country's good!?Down ever-lengthening avenues of fame?Thus shines and shall shine still his glorious name.
Again what vigilance, what profound skill did he show in the capture of Tarentum!
It was indeed in my hearing that he made the famous retort to Salinator, who had retreated into the citadel after losing the town: "It was owing to me, Quintus Fabius, that you retook Tarentum." Quite so," he replied with a laugh; "for had you not lost it, I should never have recovered it."
Nor was he less eminent in civil life than in war. In his second consulship, though his colleague would not move in the matter, he resisted as long as he could the proposal of the tribune C. Flaminius to divide the territory of the Picenians and Gauls in free allotments in defiance of a resolution of the Senate. Again, though he was an augur, he ventured to say that whatever was done in the interests of the State was done with the best possible auspices, that any laws proposed against its interest were proposed against the auspices. I was cognisant of much that was admirable in that great man, but nothing struck me with greater astonishment than the way in which he bore the death of his son-a man of brilliant character and who had been consul. His funeral speech over him is in wide circulation, and when we read it, is there any philosopher of whom we do not think meanly? Nor in truth was he only great in the light of day and in the sight of his fellow-citizens; he was still more eminent in private and at home. What a wealth of conversation! What weighty maxims! What a wide acquaintance with ancient history! What an accurate knowledge of the science of augury! For a Roman, too, he had a great tincture of letters. He had a tenacious memory for military history of every sort, whether of Roman or foreign wars. And I used at that time to enjoy his conversation with a passionate eagerness, as though I already divined, what actually turned out to be the case, that when he died there would be no one to teach me anything.
Ken1
January 18, 2007 - 08:57 pm
Thanks Gene. I was trying to apply Ginny's idea of parsing first and then combining the results. I may have made a mistake or two as I look back. ad acrem should be to the citadel and not from the citadel.
Maryemm
January 19, 2007 - 05:07 am
Freaky Friday!!! Good morning, Everyone, this Freaky Friday.
Hannibal (247-182 BCE) was one of the greatest military leaders in history. His most famous campaign took place during the Second Punic War (218-202), when he caught the Romans off guard by crossing the Alps.
Read the rest at:
BIOGRAPHY .......................
ROUTE ACROSS THE ALPS See satellite photo at:
MAP
HANNIBAL IN THE ALPS . ......................................... Well I never!
ROMAN VILLA ................... See some archaeological finds here at:
FINDS .................. and finally, an interesting website sent in by
Peter your classmate. If you can possibly watch the programme, please try and do so. It promises to be both interesting and informative.
TIMEWATCH
Ginny
January 19, 2007 - 06:59 am
Great work here, and I agree, Gene, beautifully parsed, Ken!
I intend to go back thru today if possible and see what's going on but today we add two new verbs to our Active Passive verb work, see L&A, you already know the grammar in the next chapter so let's forge ahead!
Ask any question on participles today or anything else you like!
Maryemm where DO you find those things, you are amazing, thank you VERY much!! I intend to spend much time with those links, I actually bid on a Hannibal coin on ebay and lost.
This morning I'll go first with our new verb suscipio and I'll say it had been undertaken__________ _______
and as this is Freaky Friday I have a question for Cap'n Jack about his Ecce article and one for Ken, I hear from Ken's wife that I should ask him about the "light rail!"'
Tell All, Ken, and while we're telling, Mousketeer, it's Freaky Friday and we've got a bit of a break, do tell all about your Dulcimer vacation over the holidays! DID you play Latin songs?
Such an interesting class, I will be back eftsoons to fill in Cap'n Jack's question!
it had been undertaken__________ _______
Ginny
January 19, 2007 - 09:47 am
We've had a couple of requests in email to look more closely at a sentence. . Any time you'd like more clarification, please do ask!
Sine victoriis Hannibal Italiam in provinciam redigere non poterat.
Sine takes the Ablative and I'm going to say this is the Ablative of Attendant Circumstance, which we have not had. You could say Ablative with prepositions. Hannibal is Nominative, subject. Italiam is Accusative, Direct Object. In provinciam is Accusative, with the preposition in, meaning INTO: into a province. Redigere is the complimentary infinitive with the verb to be able: he was not able (Imperfect) to reduce (redigo) Italy into a province.
Is there any other sentence somebody would like to see parsed?
marni0308
January 19, 2007 - 10:01 am
it had been undertaken
susceptum erat
(I'm trying out the "um" ending because this is an "it" subject)
Next: she undertook
marni0308
January 19, 2007 - 10:26 am
Such interesting info about Hannibal, Maryemm. Thanks!
GeneJ
January 19, 2007 - 01:53 pm
Next: she undertook
suscipiō, suscipere, suscēpī, susceptus ---- undertake
I believe I'll have a crack at the Perfect 3rd pers. sing.
suscēpit
Next: It offers a reward. --- It offers.
EllH
January 19, 2007 - 04:32 pm
propono, proponere, proposui,propositus
proponit-it offers
next-we will have undertaken
JCollins
January 19, 2007 - 06:10 pm
next-we will have undertaken
undertake -- suscipiō, suscipere, suscēpī, susceptus ----
inceperimus
next-propono--future passive--3rd person plural
marni0308
January 19, 2007 - 10:25 pm
propono--future passive--3rd person plural
proponentur
Next: I will have undertaken
Ginny
January 20, 2007 - 04:15 am
Wonderful work here and all homework is now returned, that last assignment in case you think YOU are beginning to slip, was a KILLER.
On the one hand you can take pride if you got anything right, in your ability to conquer, and you can also admire, somewhat grudgingly, perhaps, their ability to make a real rubic's cube exercise. Still, those WERE very very tough!!
And so we sail happily into next week! I'll return our man Aeneas to he heading. I do see Ulysses coming over the hill, he's back one unit but he's on the way! Everybody run out and start their Odyssey cars, we'll begin our own very shortly, after we conquer the Relative Pronoun, I love the relative pronoun!!
They also take up a great deal of space talking about the 4 Principal Parts, which you already know. I like the way we're approaching this, we already know almost all the grammar to come, EXCELSIOR!!
Hella
January 20, 2007 - 09:08 am
I will have undertaken suscēperō
Next: it had been undertaken
Ken1
January 20, 2007 - 01:39 pm
it had been undertaken - I think that this would be passive voice
Pluperfect passive third person singular - susceptus erat Yep except "it" wants UM as an ending as it's a neuter susceptum erat
next: they will have been undertaken.
Ken1
January 20, 2007 - 02:26 pm
Ginny - per your request my light rail Latin tale follows.
Ken and the Skateboarder
I take the light rail to work every day as it is easier than driving downtown from South Central Denver. It is a relatively short ride of twenty minutes. I usually read my Latin assignments and try to review lessons during my morning and evening commute.
One evening, on the way home last fall, I was reading Ullman, Henderson, and Henry when a young man boarded and sat in the seat across from me. I looked up and noticed he had a skateboard draped across his legs, a funny-looking hat was on his head, and he had a somewhat surly expression. Being a veteran rider of the New York subway system when I lived in Brooklyn, I promptly ignored him. I did notice, however, that he kept looking my way. I kept thinking that this is a violation of train protocol, ie, do not disturb people.
When, suddenly, I hear: "Salvē virī."
Astonished, I keep my wits and respond, "Salvē, discipulē."
I also was hoping he was a student.
He then responded, "Quid agitis Hodiē?"
I remembered this from Wheelock as How are you today? So I responded,
"Ego sum sānus."
He quickly says, "Quid est nōmen tuum?"
I say, "Nōmen meum est Ken" and follow with, "Quid est nōmen tuum?"
He says, "Nōmen tuum no est Latina Lingua."
And I respond with "Nōmen meum est dē Britannicā"
He replies with some expression, "Ecce! Nōmen meum est Marcus et est nōmen Latina!"
I then exclaim, "Lets switch to English!"
He replies, "Good idea."
It turned out that he was a college student and he had just finished a year of Latin. He said that he enjoyed the reading and cultural aspects of the class. We both agreeded that Latin was very much a "living and vibrant language."
As he departed the train, he says, "Valē" and I respond "Valē".
After he left, the person sitting next to me said, "What language were you speaking?"
I said, "Latin" and he said "Oh."
EllH
January 20, 2007 - 03:38 pm
Ken, I'm really impressed that you were able to come back with those great responses. Ave, Maria is as far as my speaking ability seems to reach.
Ell
Ginny
January 20, 2007 - 08:07 pm
KEN!!!!
That is priceless!! LOVE it! You must put that in the Classics Lounge!!
We've had SUCH stories since we began, we had Ed in El Salvador who was chanting on a bench and who was thought to be a religious figure by the locals, giving him a chance to tell everyone about Latin, and my own experience in Koln with the cloaca maxima which did not work hahahaha
THAT is priceless! Do put it in the Classics Lounge so other classes can see it! hahahaa
Amazing! Latin Lives Today! Maybe we could have a Funniest Story page, priceless! Thank you!!!!
patwest
January 20, 2007 - 09:30 pm
Maryemm, Save Ken's story for the next ECCE!
Hella
January 21, 2007 - 08:21 am
Ken, I loved that story! Thanks for telling it. And Bravo! for holding up your end so well.
Hella
January 21, 2007 - 08:30 am
they will have been undertaken suscēpti erunt
Next: I had been known
Hella
January 22, 2007 - 02:28 am
Adsum quod sopor abest, itaque cum sententiā primā incipiam.
Aeneas and Turnus
Troy was captured by the Greeks and Aeneas had come to Italy with a few Trojans and he had led the men through foreign lands.
Ginny
January 22, 2007 - 04:21 am
Hahahah Hella, a fitting beginning, in Latin, yet, to our rendition in class of the story of Aeneas and Turnus, we'll finish him out in good style.
A bright good morning to you all, are you transfixed as I am by the English estate slap in the middle of a Roman Villa on page 185? Oh the lucky DUCKS! I'd spend all my time digging! Hahaha Maye that's the guy they showed, some Duke or something, in that PBS special with Michael Palin, who went out to a shed on his place and revealed an entire ruin down shed full of Roman sculpture, OH!!!!
But first: Latin Lives Today Department: a student in another class has spotted Latin in an article about paternity: Who's Your Daddy? Time Magazine
It would seem if you want to add gravitas or class to your article you need to quote Latin, even in 2007!
The newspaper also carries the news that the Roman Catholic Church is seeing a huge upswing in interest in having services in Latin again amongst the youth. And Johnny Depp's new production company is named Infinitum Nihil, which one of his fan sites translates as "infinite nothing," so everybody is well in on the act in 2007, including us! What a joy to be doing this with you!
So let's continue with our story as Hella has started us off, one sentence at a time, please, and do ask about any one which puzzled you!
JCollins
January 22, 2007 - 05:37 am
But Juno remained unfriendly and urged on the many barbaric people of Italy against the unfortunate Aeneas.
mouseketeer
January 22, 2007 - 05:53 am
Lavinia, the daughter of King Latinus was loved by Turnus but she was given to Aeneas.
JCollins
January 22, 2007 - 05:58 am
Turnus did not hesitate to wage war.
mouseketeer
January 22, 2007 - 06:03 am
War was not undertaken gratefully by Aeneas; he did not want to be under arms to the end of his life.
JCollins
January 22, 2007 - 06:12 am
But the cause of Troy had been undertaken by fate.
mouseketeer
January 22, 2007 - 06:47 am
Jack, Would it be better to say "of the Trojans" and "by the Fates"?
Aeneas also accepted kindness and aid from the Greeks who lived in
Italy, because they were enemies of Turnus.
formerfarmer
January 22, 2007 - 07:11 am
Through many days the battle is waged and many excellant examples of courage in famous battles are put forward.
fdobbs
January 22, 2007 - 07:19 am
At last Turnus alone summoned the lone Aeneas to fight, because he wished
to offer an example to the rest.
GeneJ
January 22, 2007 - 07:20 am
Bill:
I translate mucn as you do in #343; I make a slight change.
gestum est : as ---- was waged
prōposita sunt: as ---- were put forward
Gene
formerfarmer
January 22, 2007 - 07:34 am
Thanks for the help, I see (after some digging ) where I went wrong.
JCollins
January 22, 2007 - 07:39 am
Yes Jane I like your suggestion in #342.
GeneJ
January 22, 2007 - 07:45 am
They fought in a convenient place before the gates of the city .
fdobbs
January 22, 2007 - 07:55 am
It was not a long battle, because Venus, mother of Aeneas, presented excellent arms for the son which the god Vulcanus had made.
EllH
January 22, 2007 - 07:59 am
The battle was not long, because Venus, mother of Aeneas,sent excellent weapons to her son, which the god Vulcan had made.
GeneJ
January 22, 2007 - 08:23 am
The fates had ordered that aid not be sent to Turnus, and so Juno acquiesed.
GeneJ
January 22, 2007 - 08:30 am
In #351 I was unable to determine the exact nature of the word, "aberat;" any help or comments are welcome.
Gene
EllH
January 22, 2007 - 08:39 am
Gene, I used she was not there or she was absent
JIW
January 22, 2007 - 08:39 am
Turnus life fled and Aeneas came to the end of danger, and found peace.
Hella
January 22, 2007 - 08:54 am
Yes, I would agree that "aberat" means "absent, not there."
JIW, I would translate that as "Turnus died." Ginny?
Yes Turnus fled this life because Juno was absent. This is quite a story, and shows clearly how the gods interfered because ordinarily nobody got in Juno's way, she was the Queen of the Gods (unless of course it was Zeus). These ancient gods have mortal foibles, it would seem.
marni0308
January 22, 2007 - 09:00 am
Ken: That is quite a story about your bus conversion. Good for you. I would not have been able to participate like that.
Ginny
January 22, 2007 - 10:00 am
Wow you're through already, great job! This story is smack out of Vergil but in Vergil Aeneas did not marry Lavinia until after Turnus was killed. Yet another battle over a woman, I liked the way Aeneas thought maybe not, he did not want to end his days fighting.
Well done! Golly I'm tempted but I'll fight it to go on to the next chapter, we'll bide here a tiny bit longer. Anybody have a question on their own or any other translation not explained so far? This is going to sound strange but let's take the vocabulary of this chapter and the LAST one, on page 181, and pose challenges using only those words, and all of those words, see L&A, I'll go first once we get thru one complete set of both we'll start over and ask something different about the next set, see L&A!
they will have departed______________
marni0308
January 22, 2007 - 10:04 am
I just read some interesting info about ancient Roman ruins when I read the book Emma Hamilton: England's Mistress. She was married to Sir William Hamilton, England's ambassador to Naples from 1764 - 1800. He was also an archeologist. The ruins of Pompeii were re-discovered in 1748 and during excavation, which went on during Hamilton's stay in Italy, many priceless artifacts were sent to Naples. Hamilton collected fortunes worth of ancient vases and sold them to the English. When he was forced to flee Naples from Napoleon, Hamilton sent a huge collection of his Roman artifacts to England by ship. The ship sank on route with all of its valuables.
Ginny
January 22, 2007 - 10:16 am
Wow, thank you for that, and I've just been reading about the treasure of Boscoreale in the Louvre, it's sort of the same thing, a sort of cloudy provenance thing and also sold, so they usually focus more on the Treasure of Menander. But the Treasure of Boscoreale was a WHOPPER, an incredible hoard of silver goblets and pieces and gold coins, and we all remember who had boxed it up and sent it out of Pompeii. And until it also was found it remained in the boxes, an eternal mystery as to why it was sent to a farm outside the city.
marni0308
January 22, 2007 - 10:22 am
they will have departed - discesserint
Next: she had ordered (I just changed this because I just saw our new assigment.) Sorry!
Marni
marni0308
January 22, 2007 - 10:29 am
That would be excellent to move on to the next story, Ginny! (I just saw your remark in the new assignment.) I'm finding I am learning a lot by translating stories and figuring out our verb tenses by how they are used in sentences within the context of stories.
EllH
January 22, 2007 - 10:42 am
docuerat-she had ordered
porta-accusative plural
cook1
January 22, 2007 - 10:54 am
porta-accusative plural
portAs
Next: He was ordered.
mouseketeer
January 22, 2007 - 11:04 am
He was ordered.
iubeo, iubere, iussi, iussus
iussus erat
Next you (s) will have taken back
marni0308
January 22, 2007 - 11:20 am
you (s) will have taken back - recēperis
Next: you (pl) will have been reduced
mouseketeer
January 22, 2007 - 11:39 am
you (pl) will have been reduced
redigo, redigere, redegi, redactus drive back, reduce
redacti eritis
Next: it will have been removed
EllH
January 22, 2007 - 11:41 am
you will have been reduced
redigo, redigere, redegi, redactus
redacti eritis
they have been removed
mouseketeer
January 22, 2007 - 11:45 am
it will have been removed
removeo, removere, removi, remotus
remotum erit
they have been removed
remotus remoti erant
Next: kindnesses accusative plural
JIW
January 22, 2007 - 12:04 pm
Going back to #342, "...Turno inimici erant." translated as "enemies of Turno." I believe inimici can be either a genitive singular or nominative plural noun meaning enemies, or a genitive singular or nominative plural adjective meaning hostile. Since Turno is dative, I translated that phrase as hostile to Turnus.
JIW
January 22, 2007 - 12:09 pm
Re #355: Yes, I would have said Turnus died too; except that I rather liked the poetry of one's life fleeing!It seemed a more dramatic ending to this story so full of drama.
formerfarmer
January 22, 2007 - 01:07 pm
kindnesses acc. pl.
beneficia
next:egregious, acc. pl.
GeneJ
January 22, 2007 - 03:16 pm
EllH:
Way back in #353 --- Thanks.
Gene
fdobbs
January 22, 2007 - 05:49 pm
egregios--acc.pl.
next:exemplum--abl.pl.
EllH
January 22, 2007 - 06:02 pm
exemplum-ab pl exemplis
propono-it will be offered
fdobbs
January 22, 2007 - 06:10 pm
it will be offered: proponetur
next: you(pl.) have been undertaken
EllH
January 22, 2007 - 06:19 pm
suscepti estis -you have been undertaken
next -he has gone away-
Ken1
January 22, 2007 - 09:36 pm
Thanks everyone regarding the story. I told my wife when I came home and she said I must tell my Latin class; however, I was too reluctant at the time.
he has gone away - it seems to me that discēdō does not take the passive voice so I will use the pluperfect indicative.
discesserat
next: He has been removed
Ginny
January 23, 2007 - 03:49 am
Excellent work here! And today, I agree, Marni, I think we can move forward cautiously into the Niobe chapter because the work there on the Present Passive Infinitive might allow for an increased command of the Passive/ Active question!
So see L&A on that issue.
Also if your login name does not reveal what you'd like to be called, as this is a lovely cohesive group, we will put, at your request, in the heading after your name what you might like to be called in parentheses, such as Asterix (Sam), so if you'd like to be called something when addressed other than Ballsofire, please indicate such and we'll do it!
All homework as of last night about 8 pm has been returned, and two things seem to commend themselves to me in it:
UH will catch you up every time:
"much" is normally MULTUM and on occasion MULTA (which is the more common, for "many things"). In this you can see a neuter, acting as substantive (standing for a noun).
The word GOOD in A 2, is also a substantive, standing for good men, as in the good die young. This set of exercises is full of substantives so be on your guard.
But today we just ease on into Niobe and to do that see L&A and let's work with our Present Passive Infinitives, piece of cake and an excellent review of the Passive voice.
I'll go first and I'll use an important new word (at least to Caesar) in that vocabulary so we can be used to it as we have done in class yesterday:
interficere_________________
See L&A for what to do there!!!
formerfarmer
January 23, 2007 - 06:49 am
interficere--to kill
interfici--to be killed
next:permittere
JCollins
January 23, 2007 - 07:25 am
permittere --active
permíttere--passive permitti and you want to permit and to be permitted for this exercise
next--remanere--active
looking for the passive
fdobbs
January 23, 2007 - 07:32 am
permittere--to allow/permitti:to be allowed
next:educere
JCollins
January 23, 2007 - 08:02 am
next:educere good work: to lead needs to be added
educī--to be lead out
next--remaneo
marni0308
January 23, 2007 - 08:11 am
I just watched the tail end of "Rome - Engineering an Empire" as I drank my coffee. I caught the tail end of the building of the Baths of Caracalla. They used 5 million gallons of water daily there! The program repeats this afternoon from 2:00 to 4:00 p.m. EST, History Channel. Tonight at 9:00 p.m. EST, same channel, is the Fall of Troy.
marni0308
January 23, 2007 - 08:23 am
remaneo - remanēre - to remain; remanērī - to be remained?? uh, oh, it's one of those "UR" words - no direct object, I think
Next: ducere
EllH
January 23, 2007 - 08:35 am
ducere-to lead duci-to be led
next permitto
formerfarmer
January 23, 2007 - 08:42 am
permittere---to allow
permitti----to be allowed
next: suscipere
marni0308
January 23, 2007 - 08:51 am
suscipere - to undertake
suscipī - to be undertaken
Next: prōpōnere
EllH
January 23, 2007 - 09:06 am
proponere to offer
proponi to be offered
next iuebo
JCollins
January 23, 2007 - 09:09 am
Next: prōpōnere
prōpōnī--to be offered
next--interficere
mouseketeer
January 23, 2007 - 09:33 am
iubeo, iubere, iussi, iussum
iubere to order
iuberi to be ordered
Next: remaneo
marni0308
January 23, 2007 - 10:01 am
remaneo
remanēre - to remain; a UR word
Next: interficere
JCollins
January 23, 2007 - 10:14 am
interficere--to kill
interfici--to be killed
next-educere
JIW
January 23, 2007 - 10:36 am
educere: to lead out
educi:to be led out
Next: terrere
JCollins
January 23, 2007 - 12:35 pm
Next: terrērī
next--legere
JCollins
January 23, 2007 - 01:18 pm
I did not translate the infinite in #394
To be frightened
next--legere
JIW
January 23, 2007 - 03:45 pm
legere
legi: to be chosen, gathered, read
Next: interficere
Ken1
January 23, 2007 - 09:35 pm
interficere
interficī - to be killed
Next: adesse
Ginny
January 24, 2007 - 05:09 am
Well a bright (it's pitch black dark) hahaah good morning to you all, the work here looks super, and we're really in the cat bird seat grammar wise. Do any of you ride bicycles? This is where you coast and enjoy the view. (I tried to ride my son's old bicycle in the barn, a man's bike and a bit too long, tall, and WAY too advanced for me and ended up breaking my toe, sic transit gloria, huh? hahahaa) I did not realize bikes came in all sizes, the "turf toe" lives in the Anderson houshold.
I am glad I tried it out , tho, before renting one on the Appian Way or I would have killed self and probably a lot of other people. hahaaa
Take today to review a little bit in class, as we have no homework and work in class on any verb form you like, see L&A!!! A mid week break for us! Enjoy!
As no form of the verb sum (adesse is ad and sum) can be made passive, let's try looking ahead to work in the Niobe chapter, page 189, let's work with those to get used to them, how about:
you (singular) will have been permitted/ you will have permitted: _______________________
formerfarmer
January 24, 2007 - 08:01 am
you (singular) will have been permitted/ you will have permitted:
permissus erit eris / permiseris
next: you will free/ you will be freed
Hella
January 24, 2007 - 09:55 am
you will free/ you will be freed
liberābis - liberātus eris
it has offered it has been offered
mouseketeer
January 24, 2007 - 10:28 am
I cannot figure out the word for offer, so will do the tenses for
remaneo, remanere, remansi, remansurus
it has remained remanserat
no passive voice, a ur 4th principal part
(a gift has been given) TO THE CHILDREN
cook1
January 24, 2007 - 12:18 pm
#400 Im not sure butgoing back to Hellas posting
it has offered it has been offered
propono, pronponere, proposui, propositus = put forward, offer.
proponit - propositus est yes just use -UM here for the neuter: propositUM est
Next: he had departed. / he had been departed.
JIW
January 24, 2007 - 12:26 pm
it has offered it has been offered, and
(a gift has been given) TO THE CHILDREN
I believe "do" will work for both of them?
it has offered: dedit
it has been offered/given: datum erat erat makes it "had been" you want est
Next: you (pl) will be killed; you (pl) will have been killed
cook1
January 24, 2007 - 12:57 pm
you (pl) will be killed; you (pl) will have been killed
Interficio, interficere, interfeci, interfectus
interficemini close! interficIo is 3rd IO so you want interfiviemini - interfecti eritis
Next: You removed / you have been removed.
marni0308
January 24, 2007 - 02:05 pm
You removed / you have been removed
remānsistī - remānsūrus es Actually in real life you'd want something very similar: remansus es, but in UH the UR of remansURus means you can't make that word passive.
Next: first (singular, ablative, neuter)
JIW
January 24, 2007 - 05:28 pm
Cook: In #404, interficio is a 3rd -io verb so would have the i in the future passive: interficiemini.
JIW
January 24, 2007 - 05:36 pm
OOPS, I missed the challenge in #401; looked at the verb instead of the noun. I'll go back and do that one, then #405.
(a gift has been given) TO THE CHILDREN: liberis
first (singular, ablative, neuter): primo
Next: let go through, 3rd pers. pl., perfect passive
cook1
January 24, 2007 - 08:13 pm
Cook: In #404, interficio is a 3rd -io verb so would have the i in the future passive: interficiemini.
Thank you JIW for that correction...the third conjugation - io verbs still confuse me. I felt interficio was of the third conjugation because of the short "e" in the present stem and the short "i".
Ken1
January 24, 2007 - 10:18 pm
Next: let go through, 3rd pers. pl., perfect passive
dīmīsērunt / dīmisī sunt
Next to lead out - first person plural future / future passive
fdobbs
January 25, 2007 - 07:35 am
lead out--educo-educere-eduxi-eductus
1st.pers.pl.future//educemus
1st.pers.pl.passive//educemur
Ginny
January 25, 2007 - 07:54 am
Great work here! It's always good to take advantage of opportunities to practice whenever you can in class. Now may we assume that everybody is up on the Present Passive Infinitive? We'll practice more in homework.
I think for today our best bet is to keep working with the new vocabulary, let's conjugate a little bit in class, in this way we can all have plenty of turns and at the same time work thru the words in Chapter XXXIV, Niobe, and ease on into a Unit Review at the same time.
I'll go first: we're now conjugating, using Paragraph 248 as our guide to the verbs. They first ask for us to conjugate in the PERFECT PASSIVE only (we need to watch what they want) amitto, and they give the 4 Principal Parts. I love to conjugate, I'll go first, let's see:
amissa (I'm feminine) est: I have been lost......next person will take the 2nd person singular because we're conjugating of amitto in the Perfect Passive Tense________________
JCollins
January 25, 2007 - 08:03 am
2nd person singular because we're conjugating of amitto in the
Perfect Passive Tense________________
amissus es
next--1st per. sing
fdobbs
January 25, 2007 - 08:07 am
amissa sum --I have been lost
next: 1st. pers.pl.??
cook1
January 25, 2007 - 09:12 am
3rd. person, sg. perfect passive.
amissus est
Next: 1st. person, pl
cook1
January 25, 2007 - 09:19 am
I think...I THINK!!!!!!! I've finally gotten the 3rd. - io conjugation figured out. Yipee and Yahoo! LOL. Sure makes me feel good when something finally soaks in.
YAHOO!
JCollins
January 25, 2007 - 09:30 am
Next: 1st. person, pl
amissi sumus
next--2nd per. pl
marni0308
January 25, 2007 - 09:32 am
amissae sumus (for feminine pl 1st person?)
cook1
January 25, 2007 - 09:45 am
2nd per. pl
amissi estis
Next: 3rd. per. pl
GeneJ
January 25, 2007 - 09:54 am
Next: 3rd. per. pl of amittō Perfect Passive Active
āmittō, āmittere, āmīsī, āmissus
āmissī sunt
Next: same word āmittō, same Tense Perfect, same person 3rd pers. plural, but in the Active Voice.
marni0308
January 25, 2007 - 10:04 am
āmittō, āmittere, āmīsī, āmissus Perfect Active
1st person sg - āmīsī
marni0308
January 25, 2007 - 10:07 am
Why do sentences in Latin in our text begin with a capital letter? I thought we had learned last year that sentences in Latin began with a small letter unless beginning with a proper noun.
This is an excellent question. Actually there were no lower case letters in ancient Latin, they were all caps. And they all ran togehter, there were no spaces between words and no punctuation in early manuscripts that have survived. A conceit perhaps of Dr. Phinney in the Cambridge series?
Here is one of the oldest texts extant:
marni0308
January 25, 2007 - 10:53 am
We had a question about Vulcan and about cities like Birmingham in our homework. I saw the famous statue of Vulcan in Birmingham, Alabama when I visited. Here are internet pictures of the statue:
http://www.bplonline.org/Archives/Vulcan/vulcanphotos.htm
fdobbs
January 25, 2007 - 10:59 am
retineo-ere-retinui-retentus--hold back,keep
1st.pers.perf.pass. retentus sum--I have been held back or retenta sum
for fem.
next:2nd pers.sg.perf.passive
marni0308
January 25, 2007 - 11:25 am
Thanks for the info, Ginny. What should we do for class and homework? Use Capitals at the beginning of sentences?
Ginny
January 25, 2007 - 11:29 am
Yes, I'd follow Ullman Henry's example because later MS did follow suit, they began separating words by periods and then separating them all together and then using caps and uncials, etc., so I'd do that.
mouseketeer
January 25, 2007 - 11:54 am
Can retentum sum also apply for the 1st p. s. neuter? E.g., the ship
has been held back. probably not, actually. The speaker is unlikely to be a neuter and ship anyway is feminine if it could talk? Reminds me of Henry VIII's famous story" if the horse could talk."
2nd p. s. perfect passive retentus es you have been held back
Next 3rd p. s. perfect passive retineo
Hella
January 25, 2007 - 01:31 pm
3rd p. s. perfect passive retineo
retinuit
Ill do Genes from # 419
same word āmittō, same Tense Perfect, same person 3rd pers. plural, but in the
Active Voice.
Amīsērunt
Next: retineo 1st person plural perfect passive
JCollins
January 25, 2007 - 02:11 pm
Next: retineo 1st person plural perfect passive
retenti sumus
next--retineo---2nd person singular perfect passive
formerfarmer
January 25, 2007 - 02:59 pm
next--retineo---2nd person singular perfect passive
retentus es
next: third per. sing. perfect passive
JCollins
January 25, 2007 - 03:29 pm
next: third per. sing. perfect passive
retentus est
remaneo-----1st per. sing perfect passive
JIW
January 25, 2007 - 04:58 pm
In working on derivations up to now, the explanations always made sense. I wonder how the Latin egregius meaning distinguished, excellent, etc., became corrupted into the English egregious meaning outstandingly bad, blatant, outrageous? According to my dictionary: "egregious. . . from Latin egregius 'standing out from the heard'; ex-, out of + grex (stem greg-), heard, flock." Interesting!
fdobbs
January 25, 2007 - 05:05 pm
I wonder if JCollins meant the next verb redigo-ere-redegi-redactus
remaneo is a "urus"vb.
redactus sum: I have been driven back
next:2nd pers.sg.perf.pass.
JCollins
January 25, 2007 - 07:37 pm
Thanks Fran-you are correct-Jack
Ken1
January 25, 2007 - 09:12 pm
next:2nd pers.sg.perf.pass.
redāctus es - you have been driven back
next: 3rd person singular perfect passive
Ginny
January 26, 2007 - 04:30 am
Great job here, you're so far ahead of the grammar in the book we're essentially coasting downhill with the wind in our hair, and we really don't take up ANYTHING new until page 207, when we hit the lovely relative pronoun, so we'll just sail along , coasting happily till then.
I am still adding names to the login names in the heading, so be sure to check there for the real names people would like to be called, as they submit them. If your login is ballsofire you may want to be callsd Tom or what you normally answer to. Or you might not. (hahaha some of the login names we've gotten have been unreal and in deference, the Instructors have had to rely on some very strange abbreviations. I remember one called Ravensclaw which I got tired of writing and addressed the speaker as Claw. ahhaaha)
On Monday we'll hear your Niobe translations and we'll begin review work on Unit VI. All homework submitted by 8 pm last night is returned, it's all good, everybody looks super and I say take the weekend off (except for translating Niobe) you deserve it!
Ask any question you have, on anything! Pertaining to Latin, that is! hahahaa
It won't be long before we meet Ulysses! (Odysseus!) Have any of you read the Odyssey? You will read it here in Latin. It's a good feeling to be coasting along, secure in our grammar and picking up the odd stray vocabulary word here or there which we need to review. Any time you feel secure in your grammar, you've got it!
Happy Weekend!, you deserve it!
Maryemm
January 26, 2007 - 05:11 am
Freaky Friday!!! Good morning, Everyone.
The Fascination with all things Roman. Tonight on UK BBC there is a programme on Hadrian's Wall.I am not sure whether some of you will be able to see this but if not, here is a taste of what the programme is all about.I have visited Housesteads Fort, the most complete, and probably, the most popular of all the Forts, so I shall certainly watch the programme.
I also hope to write more about the exciting finds still being made in "Ecce" Issue 4.
TIMEWATCH Speaking of "exciting finds", some time ago, people voted for the best Roman find ever( well,so far!)
One of the items : The Ribchester Helmet (Now in the British Museum)
Have a look at the others considered and see whether you would have voted for the winner:
VOTING RESULTS Read more about the find of the Roman face cream, and its modern- day copy in Ecce Issue 2 (Roman make up)
........................... "Legalised Looters"? Some archaeologists frown on the use of metal detectors but sometimes they come in very useful:
QUOTE:
Metal detecting and archaeology in England
Archaeologists have long been divided over the effects of metal detecting. Some see the hobby as predominantly harmful, while others have embraced the metal detector as an invaluable aid to investigation of the past. This debate has been inconclusive, not least because of a lack of basic information on which reasoned judgements might be made. Metal detecting and archaeology in England, a rapid survey commissioned from the Council for British Archaeology in November 1993, attempted to take matters forward by objectively addressing some of the issues. The broad aims were to provided an outline quantification of the impact of metal detecting on archaeological sites in England, and to assess the metal detector's overall contribution to archaeological knowledge.
The report was published in January 1995, and considered a number of basic themes:
METAL DETECTORS METAL DETECTOR FINDS Found in 2005 again with a metal detector.
DETECTING FINDS This January 2007, the following was found using a metal detector:
Read the story here at:
STORY
marni0308
January 26, 2007 - 09:19 am
Thanks, Maryemm. I don't how anyone could vote for one vs another of the relics found. So interesting!
Hella
January 26, 2007 - 12:33 pm
redigo drive back, reduce
2nd pers.sg.perf.pass.
redactus es
Next: 3rd pers. sing. perfect passive
cook1
January 26, 2007 - 01:56 pm
#436.
Thank you for all the interesting links. I'm surprised at the value of the dog...I would think it would be appraised for more than the $774.76 american dollars. Do the people that find these artifacts get a percentage of the find or how does that work? Just curious.
Maryemm
January 26, 2007 - 02:50 pm
This URL might answer your question :
TREASURE TROVE Metal detector owners draw up a "contract" with the owner of the land on which they search! Usually they split any money 50/50.
cook1
January 26, 2007 - 03:09 pm
Thank you for posting that link Maryemm, it answered my question.
Ginny
January 29, 2007 - 04:42 am
I tell you what, if I lived in England, I'd spend all my time digging, just like EF Benson's character Lucia of Mapp and Lucia did, no joke! hahahaa Or some of my time anyway!
A bright good morning to you all and we'll begin by hearing your own renditions of the story of Niobē, note that long E on the end! BAY, not the way we say it.
Let's hear what you were able to find out about her! You know what goeth before a fall, lesson for us all!
mouseketeer
January 29, 2007 - 05:59 am
Niobe
Niobe, a haughty queen, lived in Greece.
formerfarmer
January 29, 2007 - 06:41 am
Her grandfather was Jupiter who ruled over gods and men and this increased the pride of the queen.
CubFan
January 29, 2007 - 06:50 am
Niobe was also arrogant because she had seven sons and seven daughters.
JIW
January 29, 2007 - 06:59 am
The god Apollo was the son of the goddess Latona, and Diana was her daughter.
fdobbs
January 29, 2007 - 07:10 am
Latona did not have other children.
mouseketeer
January 29, 2007 - 07:15 am
The sacred rites of Latona were undertaken by the people.
fdobbs
January 29, 2007 - 07:18 am
The haughty Niobe was present and asked:
mouseketeer
January 29, 2007 - 07:24 am
Why do you undertake the sacred rites for the mother of two children?
JIW
January 29, 2007 - 08:11 am
I will not permit this.
marni0308
January 29, 2007 - 08:11 am
Niobe is also a goddess; she has 14, not two, children.
Hella
January 29, 2007 - 08:16 am
I will not allow this. Niobe is also the goddess; she has 14, not two, children.
Hella
January 29, 2007 - 08:21 am
Latona does not deserve the glory Niobe ought to be the first.
(since Marni and I posted almost at the same time, I'll do another one)
marni0308
January 29, 2007 - 08:21 am
Latona does not merit glory - Niobe ought to be first.
marni0308
January 29, 2007 - 08:22 am
Hella: I did it again!! hahaha!!
marni0308
January 29, 2007 - 08:50 am
"Niobe, the queen of Thebes,... had indeed much to be proud of; but it was not her husband's fame, nor her own beauty, nor their great descent, nor the power of their kingdom that elated her. It was her children; and truly the happiest of mothers would Niobe have been if only she had not claimed to be so. It was on occasion of the annual celebration in honour of Latona and her offspring, Apollo and Diana,- when the people of Thebes were assembled, their brows crowned with laurel, bearing frankincense to the altars and paying their vows,- that Niobe appeared among the crowd. Her attire was splendid with gold and gems, and her aspect beautiful as the face of an angry woman can be. She stood and surveyed the people with haughty looks. "What folly," said she, "is this!- to prefer beings whom you never saw to those who stand before your eyes! Why should Latona be honoured with worship, and none be paid to me? My father was Tantalus, who was received as a guest at the table of the gods; my mother was a goddess. My husband built and rules this city, Thebes, and Phrygia is my paternal inheritance. Wherever I turn my eyes I survey the elements of my power; nor is my form and presence unworthy of a goddess. To all this let me add I have seven sons and seven daughters, and look for sons-in-law and daughters-in-law of pretensions worthy of my alliance. Have I not cause for pride? Will you prefer to me this Latona, the Titan's daughter, with her two children? I have seven times as many. Fortunate indeed am I, and fortunate I shall remain! Will any one deny this? My abundance is my security. I feel myself too strong for Fortune to subdue. She may take from me much; I shall still have much left. Were I to lose some of my children, I should hardly be left as poor as Latona with her two only. Away with you from these solemnities,- put off the laurel from your brows,- have done with this worship!" The people obeyed, and left the sacred services uncompleted.
The goddess was indignant. On the Cynthian mountain top where she dwelt she thus addressed her son and daughter: "My children, I who have been so proud of you both, and have been used to hold myself second to none of the goddesses except Juno alone, begin now to doubt whether I am indeed a goddess. I shall be deprived of my worship altogether unless you protect me." She was proceeding in this strain, but Apollo interrupted her. "Say no more," said he; "speech only delays punishment." So said Diana also. Darting through the air, veiled in clouds, they alighted on the towers of the city. Spread out before the gates was a broad plain, where the youth of the city pursued their warlike sports. The sons of Niobe were there with the rest,- some mounted on spirited horses richly caparisoned, some driving gay chariots, Ismenos, the first-born, as he guided his foaming steeds, struck with an arrow from above, cried out, "Ah me!" dropped the reins, and fell lifeless. Another, hearing the sound of the bow,- like the boatman who sees the storm gathering and makes all sail for the port,- gave the reins to his horses and attempted to escape. The inevitable arrow overtook him, as he fled. Two others, younger boys, just from their tasks, had gone to the playground to have a game of wrestling. As they stood breast to breast, one arrow pierced them both. They uttered a cry together, together cast a parting look around them, and together breathed their last. Alphenor, an elder brother, seeing them fall, hastened to the spot to render assistance, and fell stricken in the act of brotherly duty. One only was left, Ilioneus. He raised his arms to heaven to try whether prayer might not avail. "Spare me, ye gods!" he cried, addressing all, in his ignorance that all needed not his intercessions; and Apollo would have spared him, but the arrow had already left the string, and it was too late.
The terror of the people and grief of the attendants soon made Niobe acquainted with what had taken place. She could hardly think it possible; she was indignant that the gods had dared, and amazed that they had been able to do it. Her husband, Amphion, overwhelmed with the blow, destroyed himself. Alas! how different was this Niobe from her who had so lately driven away the people from the sacred rites, and held her stately course through the city, the envy of her friends, now the pity even of her foes! She knelt over the lifeless bodies, and kissed now one, now another of her dead sons. Raising her pallid arms to heaven, "Cruel Latona," said she, "feed full your rage with my anguish! Satiate your hard heart, while I follow to the grave my seven sons. Yet where is your triumph? Bereaved as I am, I am still richer than you, my conqueror." Scarce had she spoken, when the bow sounded and struck terror into all hearts except Niobe's alone. She was brave from excess of grief, The sisters stood in garments of mourning over the biers of their dead brothers. One fell, struck by an arrow, and died on the corpse she was bewailing. Another, attempting to console her mother, suddenly ceased to speak, and sank lifeless to the earth. A third tried to escape by flight, a fourth by concealment, another stood trembling, uncertain what course to take. Six were now dead, and only one remained, whom the mother held clasped in her arms, and covered as it were with her whole body. "Spare me one, and that the youngest! O spare me one of so many!" she cried; and while she spoke, that one fell dead. Desolate she sat, among sons, daughters, husband, all dead, and seemed torpid with grief. The breeze moved not her hair, no colour was on her cheek, her eyes glared fixed and immovable, there was no sign of life about her. Her very tongue cleaved to the roof of her mouth, and her veins ceased to convey the tide of life. Her neck bent not, her arms made no gesture, her foot no step. She was changed to stone, within and without. Yet tears continued to flow; and borne on a whirlwind to her native mountain, she still remains, a mass of rock, from which a trickling stream flows, the tribute of her never-ending grief.
The story of Niobe has furnished Byron with a fine illustration of the fallen condition of modern Rome:
"The Niobe of nations! there she stands,
Childless and crownless in her voiceless woe;
An empty urn within her withered hands,
Whose holy dust was scattered long ago;
The Scipios' tomb contains no ashes now:
The very sepulchres lie tenantless
Of their heroic dwellers; dost thou flow,
Old Tiber! through a marble wilderness?
Rise with thy yellow waves, and mantle her distress."
Childe Harold, IV. 79.
As an illustration of this story there is a celebrated statue in the imperial gallery of Florence. It is the principal figure of a group supposed to have been originally arranged in the pediment of a temple. The figure of the mother clasped by the arm of her terrified child is one of the most admired of the ancient statues. It ranks with the Laocoon and the Apollo among the masterpieces of art. The following is a translation of a Greek epigram supposed to relate to this statue:
"To stone the gods have changed her, but in vain;
The sculptor's art has made her breathe again."
Photo of statue:
http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/CGPrograms/Dict/image/NiobeCast.jpg http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_text_bullfinch_14.htm
JIW
January 29, 2007 - 08:53 am
For you and your children I offer an excellent model.
GeneJ
January 29, 2007 - 09:09 am
If my opinion will not have been approved by you, you will be inflicted with punishment.
I'm not on strong ground here. Other translations are most welcome.
Gene Right, if you don't like what I'm saying, stuff it.
GeneJ
January 29, 2007 - 09:20 am
Marni:
Marni, you are an absolute peach. Really enjoyed the story of Niobe that you posted in #457.
Gene
marni0308
January 29, 2007 - 09:21 am
Thanks, Gene. That sentence was the hardest for me to translate in this story.
Marni
JIW
January 29, 2007 - 09:37 am
The arrogant words of the queen were heard by Latona.
JCollins
January 29, 2007 - 09:58 am
He seized the new plan : he called the son and entrusted the duty: She (Latona) thought of a new plan. She called her son and put this duty or task or business to him:
I command you to kill the 7 sons of Niobe.
Ginny
January 29, 2007 - 10:17 am
GREAT work here! Marni, thank you SO much for that background, you can't say the ancients are lacking in imagination, for some reason this reminds me of Pearl Buck and the habit of the Chinese in saying oh what a shame such an ugly baby when they mean the opposite, to ward away jealous spirits!
Pride goeth before many falls in ancient mythology. I always liked the story of Arachne, myself and how arachinda got to be the classification for spiders.
JIW
January 29, 2007 - 10:21 am
The first son was nearby and he was killed, then the rest.
marni0308
January 29, 2007 - 11:06 am
Niobe now had lost seven sons through haughty language; however she remained proud because her daughters had remained.
marni0308
January 29, 2007 - 11:10 am
Golly, I've been reading a bit more of the mythology about Niobe and her family. They had it pretty rough! Her father was Tantalus. He ended up being tortured for eternity by being "tantalized" with food that he could never reach. Niobe's brother was murdered and served for dinner!
formerfarmer
January 29, 2007 - 01:00 pm
And so Latona ordered even the seven daughters to be led out and killed by Diana.
JIW
January 29, 2007 - 02:27 pm
One at a time the daughters were killed, and wretched Niobe was turned into stone.
JCollins
January 29, 2007 - 02:31 pm
Large punishments had been afflicted(affected). She had been afflicted with a great punishment. That's the truth!
mouseketeer
January 29, 2007 - 04:22 pm
We ought to remember the example of Niobe.
Ginny
January 29, 2007 - 04:30 pm
Great job, I think that's an excellent translation.
Let's continue now for those who would like to, with working with the verbs you can see on page 195, the unit review. Let's practice making those which we can, Passive in the Infintive and translating.
I'll go first:
#14: absum, can't be made passive, skip it
#15. adsum, can't be made passive, skip it
hopefuly this won't be a habit!@ hahahaa
#16: amitto: both infinitives, Active and Passive, and translate__________________
mouseketeer
January 29, 2007 - 04:41 pm
amitto, amittere, amisi, amissus
amittere to let go
amitti to be let go
Next: cupio active and passive infinitives and translate
Ken1
January 29, 2007 - 09:33 pm
cupio active and passive infinitives and translate
cupere - to desire / cupī - to be desired
Next: dimittō acitve and passive infinitives and translate
Ginny
January 30, 2007 - 04:18 am
Super job here and I'd like to continue with this work today, going over the vocabulary of this unit. In looking ahead I am seeing a lot of throw away stuff and I'd like to know if you feel confident enough with THESE vocabulary words to vault up into the next chapters? I really need to know this.
I will put something in the homework about it.
Meanwhile we'll keep on with our voacabulary work here and we'll add STEMS, see L&A for more! Ken has posed the next one so let's work on. Use the vocabulary pages on page 195 to flip back and forth and be sure you know these words.
I have just loved the background materials here!!
See L&A
mouseketeer
January 30, 2007 - 05:58 am
dimitto, dimittere, dimisi, dimissus
dimittere to let go
dimitti to be lett go
Next: discedo: active and passive infinitives and translation
JCollins
January 30, 2007 - 07:25 am
Next: discedo: active and passive infinitives and translation
discedo discedere discessi discessus-a-um
discedere--to depart
discedi--to be departed
next-redigo
formerfarmer
January 30, 2007 - 07:33 am
redigo, redigere, reddegi, redactus
redigere---to drive back, reduce
redigi---to be driven back
next: iubeo- active and passive infinitives and translation
GeneJ
January 30, 2007 - 07:50 am
next: iubeo- active and passive infinitives and translation
iubeō, iubēre, iussī, iussus --- order
iubēre -- active infinitive --- to order
iubērī -- passive infinitive -- to be ordered
Next: suscipiō --- Active and passive infinitives and translation
Oops. The three stems Present, Perfect, and Participial ahould have been added. Shall we add them as we go along today?
Present: iubē
Perfect: iuss
Participial: iuss
If anyone spots a mistake please chime in.
JCollins
January 30, 2007 - 07:50 am
next: iubeo- active and passive infinitives and translation
iubeo iubere iussi iussum
iubere to order
iuberi to be ordered
next dubito
active and passive infinitives and translation
mouseketeer
January 30, 2007 - 08:20 am
dubito, dubitare, dubitavi, dubitatus
dubitare to doubt
dubitari to be doubt
Next: educo
active and passive infinitives and translation
JCollins
January 30, 2007 - 08:35 am
Next: educo active and passive infinitives and translation
educo
educere
eduxi
eductus
educere---to lead out
educi---to be lead out
Next: interficio
active and passive infinitives and translation
EllH
January 30, 2007 - 08:44 am
interficio interfecere interfeci interfectus
interfecere to kill-
interfeci-to be killed
next-nosco infinitives and translate
JCollins
January 30, 2007 - 08:54 am
next-nosco infinitives and translate
nosco noscere novi notum
noscere---to know
nosci---to be known
next-propono infinitives and translate
EllH
January 30, 2007 - 08:59 am
propono proponere proposui propositus
proponere to offer
proponi to be offered
next permitto infinitives and translate
marni0308
January 30, 2007 - 09:21 am
permitto infinitives and translate -
permittō, permittere, permīsī, permissus, a, um
permittere - to permit, allow, entrust
permittī - to be permitted, allowed, entrusted
Next: prōcēdō
formerfarmer
January 30, 2007 - 05:44 pm
procedo, procedere, processi, processurus
procedere -to advance
procedi--to be advanced
next:produco
Ken1
January 30, 2007 - 08:28 pm
produco
prōdūcō, prōdūcere, prōcessī, prōductus
prōdūcere - to lead out
prōdūcī - to be lead out
Next: recipiō
Ginny
January 31, 2007 - 05:20 am
Great work here, I think we have the Passive Infinitive down perfectly, and we're ready now for some more difficult stuff! See L&A for thoughts on today's work. I hope to have all homework returned by tomorrow, but it's looking good.
We're to have snow and ice storms here tomorrow, so IF I disappear, carry right on, and plunge headlong into the next chapter. Great stuff coming up!!
It's interesting that ludus is also the word for game, I have a feeling the youngsters did not have quite the play school experience we might think. Glimpses of Roman Life on pages 190-192 talks about the schools, you might want to read that first, and did you SEE that photograph on page 192??!!?? Dougga, I long to see the extensive Roman ruins of North Africa. Actually at this time Libya is refusing entry to Americans!!!! Whoops, won't be going THERE.
There is a cruise, 34 passenger private yacht going there for 2 weeks ONLY to the Roman sites in April, I think it's $8,000-$10,000 each, whom shall we send? Hahahaa We can pool our money, all aboard? Hahahaah Boy I'd love to see those sites, look at this: A Cruise to the Roman Ruins of North Africa
Join us aboard the exquisite 34-guest private yacht Callisto during the perfect weather of the Mediterranean springtime, as we discover the ancient northern coast of Africa. Colonized by Phoenicians and Greeks around the 7th century B.C., the region was eventually conquered by Rome, which turned the entire coast into its breadbasket. A million tons of grain each year, cultivated in Africa, were shipped to Romeνs hungry armies; exotic African animals found their way to Romeνs Coliseum; and, at the behest of the Severan emperors, powerful cities rose to rival Rome itself in scope, scale, and lavishness.
Hooo hah!
So this morning let's begin a tamer (and probably much safer, I don't see a lot about safety or guides!?!! ) excursion here in our Time Machine into two sight passages and see how we do!
I'll start: Page 193: Paragraph 254: Ludus:
Do you remember Lucius?-------
mouseketeer
January 31, 2007 - 05:59 am
Lucius and the rest of the Roman boys had been led out into the
beautiful Roman forum by the teacher.
formerfarmer
January 31, 2007 - 07:25 am
Now again you will hear about Lucius.
EllH
January 31, 2007 - 07:39 am
Now you will hear again about Lucius.
JIW
January 31, 2007 - 07:57 am
Now we shall discuss the game with Lucius.
I'm not sure about this one. Any other suggestions?
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 08:02 am
I'm not sure either JIW--I'll try:
We shall conduct a play with or about Ludus????
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 08:14 am
I'll post another one while the jury is out on the last posting.
The play is located ? where the teacher teaches the boys and girls.
EllH
January 31, 2007 - 08:26 am
Jack, I had that as The school is the place where the teacher teaches the boys and the girls.
EllH
January 31, 2007 - 08:29 am
Following up on that
The first school is called the school of letters.
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 08:36 am
#496-I had found another meaning of ludus as a play or perhaps a game. Yes you are right.
497 -another meaning of litterum as elementary school?--Cassell's
marni0308
January 31, 2007 - 08:48 am
In Lucius' school there were no girls, and few boys.
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 08:55 am
The Romans did not send the children to public school because there were no public schools.
marni0308
January 31, 2007 - 09:02 am
But nevertheless the price for a student was small.
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 09:10 am
The boys were carrying the money and the rewards(recompense?) to the teacher.
marni0308
January 31, 2007 - 09:14 am
Slaves were leading boys to school before dawn and were carrying a lantern and books.
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 09:15 am
Was it not hard to spend many hours in the school?
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 09:16 am
Marni--would it be better to use "used to" instead of "were" in our previous posts?
EllH
January 31, 2007 - 09:22 am
The slaves used to remain in the school and lead the boys back to the families.
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 09:28 am
Actually the teacher was a slave. (I found actually could be a translation of etiam) What do you think?
EllH
January 31, 2007 - 09:41 am
I think that's good translation, Jack.
He taught letters and words and numbers.
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 09:42 am
The lamguage of the school was Latin because the boys were Romans.
marni0308
January 31, 2007 - 10:11 am
You're right. "Used to" sounds better here.
marni0308
January 31, 2007 - 10:13 am
Lucius did not like numbers.
HA! I love that line! I don't blame him!!
cook1
January 31, 2007 - 10:18 am
The teacher was showing the forms of the alphabet to the boys.
JCollins
January 31, 2007 - 10:23 am
Then he used to hold the fingers of the boys and he used to make letters.
cook1
January 31, 2007 - 10:32 am
They have been showed mottoes by the teacher.
JIW
January 31, 2007 - 10:35 am
The mottoes have been shown to the boys by the teacher.
That was sight reading, but after writing it I looked up sententiae. Another definition is "meaning" which seems to make more sense in this context than the "mottoes" given in the book. The teacher showed the boys how to make the letters, then he demonstrated the meanings.
JIW
January 31, 2007 - 10:39 am
Aha! Reading the next sentence, mottoes now makes sense.
An example of a motto is: "There is always victory where there is peace."
EllH
January 31, 2007 - 10:39 am
The mottoes were shown to the boys by the teacher.
cook1
January 31, 2007 - 10:48 am
LOL...I lost my boys...
JIW
January 31, 2007 - 10:52 am
Lucius always loved beautiful mottoes and he remembered them.
JIW
January 31, 2007 - 11:43 am
Since no one has posted for awhile, I will take the last line.
Diligence and also interest earns the first prize.
Hella
January 31, 2007 - 01:30 pm
Going on to p. 198 After the War
Place: in the atrium of Lucilia. (Lucilia and Valeria approach)
Valeria: Victory is ours! Ours have seized many towns, many camps.
EllH
January 31, 2007 - 02:01 pm
Lucilia: The gods are good!
JIW
January 31, 2007 - 03:02 pm
Valeria: Your Caecilius will arrive -- and my fiance, Arrius.
EllH
January 31, 2007 - 03:15 pm
Valeria: Zoe! Zoe! (Zoe approaches.) Zoe, get my new jewel.!
mouseketeer
January 31, 2007 - 04:04 pm
Valeria: The slave is new.
Ken1
January 31, 2007 - 08:39 pm
Lūcīlia: She is a prisoner. She has been sent ahead with the loot.
mouseketeer
February 1, 2007 - 05:29 am
Valeris: She is poor and sad. I saw tears in her eyes. (Zoe
approaches. She is carrying jewels and beautiful clothes.
Lucilia and Valeria do not see her.)
EllH
February 1, 2007 - 06:47 am
Lucilia: War is hard. Zoe lost fatherland and family.She is unhappy.
GeneJ
February 1, 2007 - 06:55 am
Valaria: She is a slave.
Ginny
February 1, 2007 - 07:12 am
Great work here. This "play" is not what you'd call a challenge but at least we can say we're doing every word, that will satisfy those who enjoy being sure no stone is left unturned, (and it's a good idea in Ullman Henry not to skip merrily over the stones, some of them are REALLY quicksand )
See L&A because Chapter XXXV has absolutely nothing in it but the verb STEMS, how easy is that, and a few new words. I can't see spending even a day on this, I really can't.
I'll be going back in about an hour to the posts I can't see on first glance, and see L&A but...er....wait.. er...watch out.....
Whoops!!
Magistra, veniente ad ludum, amissa est!
Hahahaa Ninguat! Ninguat! Ninguat!!
Yes it's snowing! SNOWING in Pauline, South Carolina!!! Woke up to a winter wonderland here on the farm, everything is covered in a white blanket, so unusual for us here.
Remember when you were a child and you'd anxiously hover around the phone (or the television?) to find out of they had cancelled school for the day?
Remember the cheers and the fun? Well in our efforts to bring you the most real Latin experience we can, today we declare in my classes is a SNOW DAY!! YES! School is out for the day!
We're to have ice after lunch, in fact it's already coming down sleet and freezing rain. We may lose power and I am pretty sure (hahaha) that my husband will not consider the computer a necessary item for our small generator's hook up, assuming he can even get it to work, so I will be working somewhat frantically to get your homework returned and something to carry us on thru the weekend before (and IF) we are cut off.
So today is a SNOW DAY!! Those of you who live in the north (I grew up on PA and NJ) can't imagine the joy of the occasional fall of silent snow secret snow!!
Now, let's see, first the homework then the shovel, do any of you remember what happened to the snow shovel? I think it was last used in the horse stall, WHEEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee er....
School is out until tomorrow, take the day off, OR finish up your translations OR practice in class OR make snow angels in the snow! Have a fun day, a lovely vacation, make snow ice cream, go sledding, come shovel the walk...er...
Hella
February 1, 2007 - 07:21 am
Lucilia: She is not a slave now - but a poor girl. She will be my friend. I love her.
mouseketeer
February 1, 2007 - 07:22 am
Lucilia: She is a slave now, but an unhappy girl. She will be my
friend. I love her.
( I may also end up in the snow/mix belt, but will keep on line as
long as I can.)
GeneJ
February 1, 2007 - 07:24 am
#530
Lovely snowmen. Tricky devils.
Gene
Enjoy it if it lends itself.
mouseketeer
February 1, 2007 - 08:01 am
Hella, I missed seeing your message, so will go on.
Valeria: Bah! (Lucilia sees the slave.)
fdobbs
February 1, 2007 - 08:49 am
Lucilia: Oh, Zoe! ( Zoe gives jewels and clothes to Lucilia.) See
Valeria!(Lucilia shows the jewels and clothes to Valeria.)
mouseketeer
February 1, 2007 - 09:09 am
Valeria: They are very beautiful! And you are very beautiful.
GeneJ
February 1, 2007 - 09:15 am
Lucilia: I am not pretty. Valeria. See, I have freckles, many freckles.
mouseketeer
February 1, 2007 - 09:24 am
Valeria: Because you are blonde they show up. But you are beautiful.
(Can you believe UH has this story! Seems more like Cambridge.)
marni0308
February 1, 2007 - 09:27 am
Freckles are present because you are blond.
marni0308
February 1, 2007 - 09:29 am
Not beautiful, but I am unhappy. Caecilius won't love me.
Maybe this IS a story from Cambridge! Here's Caecilius!!
GeneJ
February 1, 2007 - 09:43 am
Valeria: Nonsense! He will love you. (Gaius enters.)
cook1
February 1, 2007 - 10:16 am
Gāius: Arrius is near, Valeria.
mouseketeer
February 1, 2007 - 10:44 am
Valeria: What?
Gaius: Arrius, your fiance, is coming to the house.
JIW
February 1, 2007 - 10:50 am
Valeria: Who saw him?
cook1
February 1, 2007 - 11:08 am
Gāius: I saw him.
JIW
February 1, 2007 - 11:53 am
Valeria: Oh, farewell, Lucilia! Farewell! (She exits with Gaius.)
mouseketeer
February 1, 2007 - 12:55 pm
Lucilia: Valeria is happy.
EllH
February 1, 2007 - 03:33 pm
Zoe:And you will be happy, mistress.
JIW
February 1, 2007 - 04:21 pm
Lucilia: What are you saying?
mouseketeer
February 1, 2007 - 04:26 pm
Zoe: I am a slave, mistress; but you ar a friend to me. I will cure
your freckles.
cook1
February 1, 2007 - 05:40 pm
Lūcīlia: You will cure? ( I want to add me on the end of this sentence but I dont see any clues to do so.)
Ken1
February 1, 2007 - 08:34 pm
Zoe: I note my cure.
Maryemm
February 2, 2007 - 04:43 am
Freaky Friday!!! Good morning, Everyone.
I thought I would have to go Freaky Friday a miss this morning as both my keyboard and mouse have been awkward. The former started typing gibberish or eating up the letters; the latter just jerked around all over the screen,on its own!
This morning, for some reason, both seem to be behaving themselves so I am keeping my fingers crossed.
More finds continue to be made and I hope you enjoy the following information.
..................... Roman finds:
FINDS ................. Another Detector Discovery
RARE COIN ................. Surprising find at Chester Amphitheatre
Photo by Chester Archaeology
CHESTER
I often look at the webcam here. It overlooks the amphitheatre dig but,alas, was not working when I checked it today.
...............
Recent discovery in Cambridgeshire:
Cambridgeshire
...........
QUOTE : Roman legion re-enactors from throughout the southeast are heading to Mobile, Alabama for the first Roman legion campsite to be presented in the Gulf Coast region. The two-day event, held February 3 and 4, coincides with the Gulf Coast Exploreum hosting A Day in Pompeii, the international exhibition on the ancient Roman city.UNQUOTE
More detail here at:
RE-ENACTMENT
Visitors fortunate enough to be within travelling distance of Mobile will be able to see the amazing Pompeii Tour.
QUOTE: The Tour centers on a virtual reconstruction of several city blocks of lost city Pompeii that includes three-dimensional models of the Grand Theater, the Triangular Forum and the Temple of Isis. These were connected by narrow streets lined with small shops and private homes, which are also depicted.
All appear as historians and archeologists believed they did before the city was buried by the volcanic eruption of nearby Mt. Vesuvius in 79 A.D. The Exploreums host theater animator, by manipulating the complex digital data sets, flies audiences through these areas. No two presentations need be exactly alike; the host selects the route by manipulating the computers joy sticks.UNQUOTE
More at:
POMPEII EXHIBITION
Ginny
February 2, 2007 - 07:50 am
Well a BRIGHT good morning to you all, after our snow day! Hahahaa WE still have a good bit on the ground here, we got 3 inches in our little pocket of the world, but the schools are back up and running and unfortunately it's 34 degrees and raining so I guess soon it will disappear. As I went to the rendezvous for the baby this morning I'm amazed at how little some areas got, but here I'm still staring at a winter wonderland, even now.
And am hopelessly behind, and like Frank McCourt, it definitely weighs on one, hope to make it all up and get the homework back today. Still we have a great weekend ahead to catch up and the work here seems quite fine!
MARY!! What incredible sites you find, who KNEW? "Groundbreaking research has revealed that Chester's Roman amphitheatre was in fact a grand two-storey structure, similar to those found in parts of the Mediterranean, and was built on the foundations of a second, earlier theatre.
The new theories are to be fully revealed at the first international conference on amphitheatres, also to be held in Chester over the weekend of February 17 and 18 2007. "
Wow wow wow, do we have anybody near Chester in our Latin courses? Oh and look at this: "The link with Septimus Severus provides a clue to its design - the Emperor was born in Leptis Magna in modern day Libya and many Roman amphitheatres in the region, at sites like El Djem in Tunisia, would have been very similar to Chester's arena."
Now Libya as noted has just closed its doors to Americans, doggone it. I'd just about kill to see Leptis Magna!
I must go to Mobile before June 3, who KNEW/ WHAT Roman re-enactors in the US? These are common in the UK but not in the US, who has ever heard of such a thing?
Do you all realize this is the THIRD MAJOR exhibit on Pompeii THIS YEAR? And that the big one is coming back in this coming winter of 2008 to BIRMINGHAM? I can't imagine the sudden interest in Pompeii, but 4 major exhibits in one calendar year says something is definitely up!!
What an incredible time to be studying Pompeii and/ or Latin!!
At present I am not having good luck with the webcam but I can't imagine anything more exciting and when I can get it to do something we'll put it in the heading here, thanks a LOT Maryemm!!
Now this morning as we have no homework over the weekend and we are almost through the strangest story I think I ever saw! I agree it's more like Cambridge than Ullman Henry!!
What on EARTH? I believe this one has been removed from the 2004 edition, I must admit my curiosity is up.
I think that last line, Remedio mihi noto, might need to read by means of a remedy known to me.
What can it be?
Strangest thing I ever saw, I think freckles are cute, wish I had some!!
Today we'll finish up this story in class and we'll work on the three stems of any verb we've had, focusing first on those on page 205 and working backwards.
But right now we're with the Freckles!
LUCILIA: Are you speaking the truth?....
OH and I forgot to say that our own Cap'n Jack will be AWOL for a week haahaha because his son, the Deputy Commander of the US Army hospital in Landstuhl, Germany, is flying home for a week!
I told our Jack to give that young man a hug and our thanks!!
Now on with the show!!
LUCILIA: Are you speaking the truth?....
mouseketeer
February 2, 2007 - 08:30 am
Zoe: I did have many freckles; now they are gone.
cook1
February 2, 2007 - 09:35 am
( not sure on this one.)
Ah, Zoē! If you will cure the freckles. Caecilius will love me.
marni0308
February 2, 2007 - 09:59 am
Zoe: He will love you. (Gaius enters.)
marni0308
February 2, 2007 - 10:03 am
Maryemm: Thank you for the links. To think, Romans in Mobile, Alabama! I had to smile while I read the article. It reminded me of the Latin teacher in my high school. (I, unfortunately, did not take Latin then.) Every year, he held a Latin event in his Latin classes - a day in Rome. Everyone got dressed up in togas and brought in foods for a Latin meal.
There's been quite a bit in the American news this week about an exciting discovery in England - not Roman - but an ancient village near Stonehenge about 5000 years old.
mouseketeer
February 2, 2007 - 10:04 am
Gaius: Lucilia! A new slave is near - my new slave.
cook1
February 2, 2007 - 10:13 am
Lūcīlia: New slave?
marni0308
February 2, 2007 - 10:20 am
Gaius: He's a boy - a prisoner. He was sent ahead. He's approaching already. He is called Philip.
fdobbs
February 2, 2007 - 10:26 am
Gaius: He is a boy--a captive. He has been sent ahead. Already he has approached. He is called Philippus.
Maryemm
February 2, 2007 - 12:33 pm
Marni I nearly posted news of the exciting find but thought I'd better keep to Roman facts!
It is exciting stuff and you can read about it here at:
VILLAGE DISCOVERED
and at:
VILLAGE I don't live far from Stonehenge.The first time I ever saw the place we were able to wander anywhere there and SIT ON THE STONES. I made a discovery! I found a handbag someone had left behind on one of the stones (No it wasn't Neolithic!!)
marni0308
February 2, 2007 - 01:16 pm
Maryemm: Thanks for the articles. So interesting. Where I live in northeastern America, we get excited about remains of early Native Americans and dinosaurs. Our history is so different - but fascinating, too.
Hella
February 2, 2007 - 01:19 pm
Zoe: Philippus?
Gaius: Look! (He hurries to the door. Philippus approaches)
Zoe: It is Philippus - my brother!
mouseketeer
February 2, 2007 - 01:38 pm
Philippus: It is Zoe-my sister! (They cry.)
cook1
February 2, 2007 - 03:16 pm
Philippus: It is Zōē__my sister. ( They weep.)
marni0308
February 2, 2007 - 03:45 pm
Zoe: Oh, mistress, I am happy. The gods are good.
(Yeah, sure they are. That's why Zoe and Philip are now slaves!!)
JIW
February 2, 2007 - 05:36 pm
Lucilia: Our family will be the happiest in Rome.
JIW
February 2, 2007 - 05:44 pm
Ginny: Do you know if the Pompeii exhibit in Mobile is the same as the one you saw last year in Chicago? I had thought that show was to be in Houston at some point, but their website says not a word about it. Last week I stumbled across the information on the Mobile show, and it refers to it as a blockbuster international exhibit. We are rearranging a cross-country trip this spring to take in Mobile just for this event. I hoped it would be one you saw. But then, if they are different, perhaps they are equal in quality.
Ginny
February 3, 2007 - 10:03 am
JIW, no the one at the Field Museum is currently in Osaka Japan, and is coming to the US again next winter, in the fall and winter of 2008, to Birmingham, Alabama~!
This kind of reminds me of the two other competing ones, recently in Atlanta: in Stabiano and Imperium.
I don't have a clue what this one is? Not a clue but I wouldn't miss it for the world. I am excited that you will be able to see it too, but I know nothing about it.
The one at the Field Museum last winter, now in Japan, has all of the things you would expect: the dog cast, an entire room full of people (their casts in position) found at Herculaneum in one of the boat houses, an entire Triclinium really incredible with all the walls intact, done when it appeared at the Smithsonian for that exhibit, now traveling with this one too, and it picked up the giant green tub from the Field Museum.
Give us a full report of what you thought when you see it! We have several Latin students going, I can't wait to hear what everybody thinks and what they thought was the most effective!
The one in Osaka is called Pompeii: Stories From an Eruption. Something like 500+ artifacts, two movies (one of which you can buy if you go when it opens, available in the states ONLY from this exhibit and they sell out fast) on DVD, which is unbelievable. and places to sit down and watch the movies, audio commentary (always the best thing to get) It has a rare wooden tripod table, a baby cradle, an entire family found, together, the golden snake bracelets, lots and lots of gold, a chest, a bronze dining couch, the famous gift to a slave, the baby in his swaddling clothes, it's very poignant and very dramatically presented with audio, very. It's like going into a funeral parlor, actually, if any of you have seen it, really respectfully captures the spirit of the thing. It's hard to think what might have been left behind, actually, so I'm most excited to see the one in Mobile, too!
The thing about these exhibits IS, that no matter how small or large they may BE, each of them has memorable pieces that really stay with you. The tiny In Stabiano exhibit recently in Atlanta had the most exquisite famous paintings, never before brought out of Italy, Flora, for example. The smallish Imperium had a hand grist mill, you could grind your own meal at home instead of having to take it to the bakery: magic stuff, little tiny stuff. It had wonderful models of a villa in the country, fabulous stuff.
I just canNOT get over the interest in Pompeii all of a sudden!
Ok well now we've finished the play, but, er.... WHAT was the cure? Did I miss something> ?? I can see why they left this thing out of the 2004 edition hahaa but anyway, a happy ending I guess, if you don't mind being a slave, all around.
Yes well, good effort on Ullman Henry's part? Hahaaha
WE did well anyway, let's do stems, I think they are more in the line of Ullman Henry then dramatic plays. Ahahaha
If I find a "new and improved play" anywhere down the road in the new UH, I'll post it.
Who needs drama however when the Odyssey is about to start? Here UH rises to the cream of the crop! You can't beat Odysseus (Ulysses) for excitement!!
Let's work on our STEMS!!
I'll go first, give the three stems of do, dare, dedi, datus, new verb , meaning "give."
JIW
February 4, 2007 - 01:40 pm
Ginny: Thanks for setting me straight on the various Pompeii exhibits. The one in Mobile does include casts, rooms,a commercial area of town, etc. It does sound exciting and we are looking forward to it.
Ginny
February 5, 2007 - 05:00 am
Oh I am too, JIW, I can't get over these exciting exhibits!! And just out of the BLUE~ Very very exciting, can't wait!!
And a bright good morning to you all as we pause to refresh and review and make sure we're ok before plunging forward into a real gem: the Relative Pronoun~! This being SUCH a bright class, I think you need the challenge of something really fun and worth your mettle but we must not neglect the old, too.
I like the way that Ullman Henry sort of makes its own flash cards with the vocabulary, with a flash of the hand (or a turn of the page) you can test yourself on vocabulary and remember, the human brain can only learn 7 new pieces of information at one time! When you get to point 8 the brain shuts down! But studies have shown if you work cheerfully at any one item, the synapses of the brain extend into other areas, so you're doing yourself good even if you don't know it!
Also we all have different strengths! There is one area coming up in the 104 class which I have never gotten straight, very frustrating to do it, for me, but one has to realize that there ARE bogies in everything, we all have strengths and weaknesses, depending on our own particular nature, and there is no person alive who is strong in all things! So cut yourselves some slack if you can't recall 1,000 words instantly!
Some people are enjoying flipping the pages, (maybe flipping them a bit TOO hard hahaha) and some have made flash cards, whatever makes you feel the most secure.
Remember also Ullman Henry about this time starts talking about derivatives in a BIG way. They want you to realize:
that you should first see IF there is any English word which vaguely resembles the Latin word in front of you. If there is, try that one out in a sentence and see if it flies. If it does not they would like you to:
GUESS at the possible meaning. Put it in context, and sail on with your translation. If that does not work, THEN look it up, give yourselves a Vocabulary Break!!
Now the English-Latin composition in these chapters is EXTREMELY difficult. Composition in Latin is often one of the last courses you take!!!! It's EXTREMELY hard! Ullman Henry uses it here from day one. I know some people don't like to see the slightest correction, feeling that somehow they have failed! NOT the case! Being able to do any of them is a miracle: a triumph for YOU and for UH, very few textbooks are this difficult. You don't realize it till about now I think, being used to it, perhaps? Cut selves some slack here!
Sursum corda!!
Now I'm assuming you have read Glimpses of Roman Life on pages 190 and 191, I found to my shock I do have a picture of one of those books and will put it in later today, and since the Stem Work here is totally not done, hahaha, then I assume that's SOOOO old hat, hahaa, The little Ludus stories in the Unit VI review on pages 193 are really just a jumble of sentences for practice. But the paragraphs on page 194 of the grammar summaries are! Here we will find the word MULTUM meaning much and MULTA many (neuter things, understood), as SUBSTANTIVES, that is, words which stand in place of a noun?
These words like the word IT are neuters, that's why they end in UM, and they cause the verb to end in UM like Multum scitum erat: much had been known.
We use these words in English all the time. Remember when Scrooge asked the Ghost of Marley, what do you want with me? And remember the answer?
"Much."
That would be multum. (OR Multa!...many things)
Let's work today in class with the review verbs in Unit 195. How many can you give derivatives for and figure out?
We'll work only with neuters and derivatives and see what we can do and in homework we'll finish up this unit. You are going to LOVE the Relative Pronoun, it's one of my favorite grammar things of all time, we'll ease into it.
Remember!! Repetitio Mater Memoriae Est! Synapses agog! Hahahaa
I'll go first, you'll like this:
Page 195, number 25: permitto: give a derivative and then write: much has been allowed________ ____________(two word answer)
Play as many times as you like! I hope that we can do all 20 of the new vocabulary words using many (things, understood) and much all day long!
Much Ado About Something! We have several people out for this week so you'll need to help out by redoubling your efforts in class.
Page 195, number 25: permitto: give a derivative and then write: much had been allowed________ ____________(two word answer) Then form another challenge just like this one for only the vocabulary on page 195.
mouseketeer
February 5, 2007 - 05:30 am
permitto, permittere, permisi, permissus
Derivative: permission
much had been allowed multum permissum erat
procedo, Few were advancing.
formerfarmer
February 5, 2007 - 07:08 am
Nancy, If I'm reading correctly, procedere can not be made passive-
processurus, so I will skip to produco.
produco, producere, produxi, productus
many had been led out--multa producti productA to agree with multa erant
next: much was offered
mouseketeer
February 5, 2007 - 07:39 am
You are correct about produco. I made it active on purpose!!
much was offered
multum productum est
Next:the unhappy (man) was offered
Hella
February 5, 2007 - 08:11 am
the unhappy (man) was offered
prōpōnō prōpōnere proposuī prōpositus
miser prōpositus erat this is had been ordered
Ill try Mouseketeers from post 574:
procedo, Few were advancing
prōcēdō prōcēdere prōcessī prōcessūrus
pauci procēdēbant
Next: many (feminine) had been doubted
marni0308
February 5, 2007 - 09:19 am
many (feminine) had been doubted - I'm a bit confused about why "doubted" is here. I may be confused, but I was thinking we were going to use the verbs from the list in a sentence. So I'll change this to:
many (fem.) proceeded - Multa prōcessērunt. Usually multa means many things and multum means much and in the ancients you don't see much else. If we need to definitely say MANY WOMEN it would have to be Multae.
recipiō, recipere, recēpī, receptus
Derivative: reception
Next: - much was received.
cook1
February 5, 2007 - 10:40 am
I don't see a verb that's listed on pg. 195...so will go with:
Number 33: retineō many have been________________
retineō , rtinēre, retinuī, retentus
Derivative: retain
Multa retinta; sp retenta sunt
Next #34: suscipiō Much has been____________.
formerfarmer
February 5, 2007 - 12:22 pm
suscipio, suscipere, suscepi, susceptus
much has been undertaken--multum susceptum est
derivative-can't come up with a derivative
next: many were killed
GeneJ
February 5, 2007 - 02:04 pm
I'm a bit confused, so here's my take on the class assignment:
Take any verb on the list of verbs on page 195, using only the verbs which may be made passive, and construct a short passive expression using as substantives, either multum or multa.
But first list a derivative for the word.
So here's my go:
removeō, many things will have been removed
removeō, removēre, remōvī, remōtus
derivative: remove
Sentence with multa in the passive: multa remōta erint
Next: ēdūcō, many had been led out
formerfarmer
February 5, 2007 - 03:31 pm
ēdūcō, many had been led out
educo, educere, eduxi, eductus
multa educti educta erant
derivative -educate
next: many will have been killed
mouseketeer
February 5, 2007 - 03:54 pm
Many will have been killed.
interficio, interfere, interfeci, interfectus
multa interfecti interfecta erint
derivative: interfere?
next: We will have been offered much.
Ginny
February 5, 2007 - 04:20 pm
Great job here and the only thing I see at all is that when you have multa you have to make your passive verb in the perfect, plu perfect or future perfect agree with an a:
multa scita sunt
multa scita erant
multa scita erunt
multum scitum est
multum scitum erat
multum scitum erit
other than that a wonderful start and the homework also looks quite splendid, super job!
Ken1
February 5, 2007 - 08:38 pm
We will have learned much.
Multī nōtī erimus.
multa (many things) noverimus
Ginny
February 6, 2007 - 04:57 am
Well a bright good morning to you, lots of exciting things coming up, a super review in place here and all homework received by 8 pm last night is returned and it's excellent, so this is super!
I am glad we're doing this pause to refresh because I am on fire to get to the Relative Pronoun which you will love, but we want to feel secure when we get there.
So this morning (see L&A) we'll do a bit more with MUCH. Trying to think of a famous quote with MUCH!!
I bet you know a million of them!
How about Shakespeare, Julius Caesar, Act I Scene i:
He reads much;
He is a great observer and he looks
Quite through the deeds of men:
He reads MUCH (meaning many things)
Let's work with MUCH and the Passive voice today (or the active, I've just added that here if you like but the Passive is the one which trips people up, see L&A for the Three Multums!)
I'll go first:
MUCH has been received (number 29, you do NOT have to list the number) _______ __________
mouseketeer
February 6, 2007 - 06:08 am
recipio, recipere, recepi, receptus
much has been received: multum receptum est
Next: Many (people) will have been sent away.
Hella
February 6, 2007 - 06:28 am
Many (people) will have been sent away
dīmittō, dīmittere, dīmisī, dīmissus
multi dīmissi erint
erunt, it's only erint when jammed on the back of the word
Next: much (punishment) has been ordered
mouseketeer
February 6, 2007 - 06:37 am
iubeo, iubere, iussi, iussus
multum iussum sunt est
Next: Many (ships) have been taken back
Ginny
February 6, 2007 - 06:59 am
Ok that's a super challenge, many ships, ships is feminine, before you answer it see the note I'm just now putting up in the L&A
GeneJ
February 6, 2007 - 07:27 am
Next: Many (ships) have been taken back
recipiō, -ere, recēpī, receptus
multae receptae sunt
Next: redigō --- much (aid) had been reduced
mouseketeer
February 6, 2007 - 07:39 am
reduco, reducere, reduxi, reductus
Much (aid) had been reduced: Multum reductum erat.
Next: Much (water) will have been lost.
formerfarmer
February 6, 2007 - 07:51 am
Much (water) will have been lost.
amitto, amitere, amisi, amissus
multum amissum erat erit
next: many (women) will hesitate
GeneJ
February 6, 2007 - 08:09 am
next: many (women) will hesitate
dubitō, -āre, āvī. -ātus
multae dubitābunt
next: much will be desired
EllH
February 6, 2007 - 08:59 am
much will be desired
cupio cupere cupivi cupitus
multum cupet cupietur
next-much(money) will have been entrusted
GeneJ
February 6, 2007 - 09:10 am
next-much(money) will have been entrusted
missae erunt
Ginny: i was uncertain whether or not to use the plural; also we think of things such as money as inanimate, or neuter, though the word for money is pecūnia and is a feminine gender. If you have a moment could you comment? ---- Gene
Good question. I think we need to say if we mean much money then we need to SAY multa pecunia, but if we mean much is understood, then we'd use multum. It might seem like splitting hairs, but usually if you mean much money you say much money and the words multum (much) and multa (many things) are sort of vague?
So I am noticing that folks are trying to match genders and that's fine but multum and muulta are sort of.....neuters and vague?
Does that help or muddy the waters much? hahahaha MUCH, get it? sigh. hahahaa
next: many things will be offered
cook1
February 6, 2007 - 09:39 am
many things will be offered.
multa prōpōnentur. Or could I spell out things... multia if you spell it out you'd need multae rēs prōpōnentur.
Next: Much will have been reduced.
marni0308
February 6, 2007 - 11:31 am
Much will have been reduced.
redigō, redigere, redēgī, redāctus
multum redāctum erit
Next: It was much [ado] about nothing. (I'm trying to get sort of a famous phrase in here!!)
Ginny
February 6, 2007 - 06:51 pm
hahaha great job and look back, All at the answer to Gene so I don't have to repeat it, like I apparently did that homework assignment with the present passive infinitive, that was NOT deliberate! hahahaha
sigh sigh, much have I known or something. Let's do try to use famous phrases. Isn't there something like much have I seen?
Good job!!
Ken1
February 6, 2007 - 10:05 pm
It was much [ado] about nothing. (I'm trying to get sort of a famous phrase in here!!)
I will try the above. It happens to be one of my Shakespearian favorites.
Multum dē nihilō fuit. note: I used nihilum since it declined and it seemed that about took the ablative. I am not sure if it is correct.
Ginny
February 7, 2007 - 02:14 am
Well a bright pitch dark good morning to you all, and the word nihil is actually indeclinable, but as Ken notes, there IS, however, a nihilum, a neuter meaning nothing, so it would be nihilo and you would be correct, Ken!!
And here's another great "much" or "many" quote.
He that is faithful in that which is least is faithful also in much.
That would be hard for us to work with tho, let's try this one: getting out my trusty Bartlett's Quotations:
T.S. Eliot: We know too much and are convinced of too little:
(just translate we know much and forget the too for now).....
mouseketeer
February 7, 2007 - 05:48 am
We know much.
Multum novimus.
Next: Much ws being entrusted.
marni0308
February 7, 2007 - 08:39 am
Much was being entrusted.
Multum mandābātur.
Next: And one man in his time plays many [parts]
From:
"All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players.
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts..."
marni0308
February 7, 2007 - 08:44 am
Ken: Good for you for trying the "much ado"!!! Neat!
I'm off to New London to check on my parents. I'll check back in tonight.
cook1
February 7, 2007 - 08:52 am
Much was being entrusted.
Multum permittēbātum > I'd use credo and credebatur
Next: Many we will send away.
JIW
February 7, 2007 - 10:09 am
Many we will send away.
Multi/multa dimittemus. (Multi if you are sending many people away; multa if you are referring to many things.)
Next: Many feelings fill my heart.
cook1
February 7, 2007 - 02:44 pm
Many feelings fill my heart.
Multae sententiae oppleus meus cordus. cor implent.
Next: Many people will hold back.
Ginny
February 7, 2007 - 04:08 pm
Good job. I think now I'd try to stick to just the multum or multa and one verb that we know, but I love the creativity!
EllH
February 7, 2007 - 04:43 pm
Many people will hold back
Multi retinebunt
much(friendship) has been lost
Ken1
February 7, 2007 - 09:25 pm
much(friendship) has been lost
Multa āmissa est.
Ginny
February 8, 2007 - 05:17 am
Great job here and TODAY we take up the Relative Pronoun and all its exciting extra stuff, I love Relative Pronouons and am excited to be doing them. We'll take our time with them, am just putting some instructions in the heading for classwork.
Give me some men who are stout hearted men and will fight for the rights they adore!________________
See L&A and heading for what to do with this one!
Hella
February 8, 2007 - 06:30 am
Give me some men who are stout hearted men and will fight for the rights they adore!
Quī relative pronoun in the nominative plural
Men antecedent
Who are stout hearted men and will fight for the rights they adore relative clause
Hella
February 8, 2007 - 06:41 am
Ginny, Im a bit confused: in my post #588 Many (people) will have been sent away - multi dīmissi erint, this is your correction erunt, it's only erint when jammed on the back of the word Then in farmers post #593 Much (water) will have been lost - multum amissum erat your correction is erit
It is the same tense, am I missing something?
No, I don't think so, or I hope not, anyway, great question!
The word erit and erunt are nothing but the future of sum: ero, eris, erit, erimus, eritis, erunt.
The only time the third plural is spelled erint is when it's actually part of the verb: jammed ON to the end: portaverint. It's portati erunt for the passive plural.
Then in Bill's example: Then in farmers post #593 Much (water) will have been lost - multum amissum erat your correction is erit <p
We had a singular and we have the Future perfect tense. Bill was almost right, he had amissum erat, which actually is the PluPerfect Tense and means HAD, we needed will have amissum erit?
You will also notice I did not correct much (water) to the feminine and left it multum. That is because as we have now explained (a great use of class time) MUCH is indefinite and is considered a neuter. From now on if we want to say much water, from this day forward, we'll say multa aqua.
marni0308
February 8, 2007 - 09:23 am
Any man who would steal would lie.
Relative clause = who would steal (relative pronoun acts as Nominative)
Antecedent = man (masculine singular)
Latin word = quī
Next: These are the times that try men's souls.
cook1
February 8, 2007 - 10:05 am
These are the times that try men's souls.
Relative clause: that try mens souls.
Antecedent = times ( neuter )'
Latin word: Quibus But the neuter "times" is the subject: the times (that) try so it's the neuter plural quae
Next: No one is free who is a slave to his body.
marni0308
February 8, 2007 - 10:56 am
I find the thing that is confusing me most about relative pronouns is determining the case. I was thinking the relative pronoun in "These are the times that try men's souls" was in the Nominative case, sort of like the subject of the dependent clause. But now I'm not sure.
Cook: Could you help me out here and explain why you selected "quibus." Thanks!!
Marni
cook1
February 8, 2007 - 12:11 pm
#616 Cook: Could you help me out here and explain why you selected "quibus." Thanks!!
I chose " quibus" because I thought "times" was in the ablative case, telling when...but checking the chart on pg. 207 it shows "that" is used only in the Nom. and acc. case. So, let me thank you for helping me...LOL.
Latin word: quae
Ginny
February 8, 2007 - 03:23 pm
Yes the thought processes here are right, we're identifying the relative clause well and the antecedent but then you have to remember the relative pronoun gets its case from it's use IN that clause.
Now Marni has posed a good one, and I'll add one to it: He who has ears to hear, let him hear_______________
mouseketeer
February 8, 2007 - 03:29 pm
#615 No one is free who is a slave to his body.
Relative clause: who is a slave to his body
Antecedent: no one
Latin: qui
Next: I fear the same danger which you fear.
Hella
February 8, 2007 - 04:37 pm
Ginnys: He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
he antecedent
who has ears to hear relative clause
who quī nominative m. sing.
Mouseketeers: I fear the same danger which you fear.
danger antecedent
which you fear relative clause
which quod accusative neutral sing.
Next: the boy whose money was stolen, went home crying
mouseketeer
February 8, 2007 - 05:04 pm
The boy whose money was stolen, went home crying.
antecedent: boy
relative clause: whose money was stolen
Genitive m (s) cuius
The danger which the boys encountered, was great.
formerfarmer
February 8, 2007 - 06:04 pm
The danger which the boys encountered, was great
antecedent=danger
relative claus-which the boys encountered
quae--sing,nom.neuter EVERYthing is perfect here except quod is the singular neuter Accusative.
The general whose horse you borrowed
EllH
February 8, 2007 - 07:16 pm
The general whose horse you borrowed
antecedent-general-
relative clause-whose horse you borrowed-
cuius- gen. sing Masc.
We watched the dogs that were swimming in the pond.
marni0308
February 8, 2007 - 08:27 pm
We watched the dogs that were swimming in the pond.
antecedent: dogs
relative clause: that were swimming in the pond
Nom. pl. neut. = quae
Next: Be not the first by whom the new are tried....
Ken1
February 8, 2007 - 09:48 pm
Be not the first by whom the new are tried....
antecedent: first
relative clause: by whom the new are tried
ablative singular masculine: quō
Next: Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill ...
GeneJ
February 8, 2007 - 11:13 pm
Ginny:
Just a minor question or two.
In the chart on page 207, in the English meanings section - in the Abl. listing ---- what does etc. refer to?
On the top of page 208 it starts with number two. Where is number one?
Great questions, Gene.
Etc. in chart 207 refers to all prepositions, in other words it's not only by, it's by from on under etc?
Oh good for you, Gene, what sharp eyes you have! An ERROR!@! Yes, and corrected in the 2004 Edition, (by leaving the numbers completely off) they are pointing out the similarity of forms, and they needed a number 1 there!! A+++++++++ for you!
Maryemm
February 9, 2007 - 04:53 am
Freaky Friday!!! Good morning, Everyone,
QUOTE: From 16-18th February 2007 Chester will be host to a unique conference that will cover all aspects of study of Roman Amphitheatres and the spectacula that took place in them. For specialists and non-specialists it features talks from amphitheatre experts from around the globe and, of course, guys from the team from our own project! For more information read the conference page or visit the official website.
CHESTER Because of this conference I am listing more information about Chester and its importance in Roman times.
........... ARTICLE EXCAVATION PROPOSALS AMPHITHEATRE CHESTER WALLS "Romans" in Chester! Photo by Phil Sayer ................... RECENT NEWS TOMB RAIDERS FOILED .................. ODYSSEUS ILLUSTRATIONS BACKGROUND
(cartoon story) brief version
Learn more about Odysseues with this game)
GAME QUIZ QUIZ ANSWERS
Ginny
February 9, 2007 - 06:15 am
Is there an echo in here? hahaha I've had MORE problems with this post repeating itself, there appears to be SOME unknown mysterious key on the keyboard which causes a repeat? hahahaa
Let's try again for heaven's sake:
Well a bright good morning to you all here on our Freaky Friday! OH WOW Mary!! Oh and look a Tombaroli foiled!! Can't wait to read those!
I really look forward to our Fridays and what Maryemm brings, I must admit I spend a lot of time on some of those websites, they are fascinating! Thank you Mary, I know that's a lot of work and we do appreciate it.
As a result of Mary's last Friday's posting I now have reservations for the 23rd and the new Mobile Pompeii Exhibit and am quite excited to be going. I can't understand WHY I have to fly to Houston first just to get to Mobile but HEY! Hahaha
OK this morning we seem to be doing quite well, I think we are grasping the Relative Pronoun with ease!!! I'm on my way out of town for the day but I look forward to a long leisurely weekend correcting the papers, but they all look super, you can pat selves on back!
But take a look at the L&A and see who I found out back! PERSEUS, who has felt adrift again with our neglect. We are all so fascinated by the Relative Pronoun and its various beauties we've neglected our man, so he'll be our focus for a Monday translation presentation whilst (hahaha) you work over the weekend on your own Relative pronouns. Really when you look at them, you almost would know them instantly, wouldn't you?
At any rate, let's continue, great work here and here's yet another famous quotation to ADD to the mix, what others can you think of?
Ask not for whom the bell tolls: it tolls for theee_________________
marni0308
February 9, 2007 - 09:54 am
Perchance he for whom this bell tolls may be so ill ...
relative clause - (for) whom this bell tolls
antecedent - he
Dat. s. masc - cui
Next: I have been through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened.
JIW
February 9, 2007 - 12:22 pm
I have been through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened.
relative clause - some of which actually happened
antecedent - terrible things?
Nom. pl. neut. - quae
Is the antecedent terrible things or some? By rephrasing the relative clause to read "of which some actually happened" I decided that the antecedent would be terrible things. Is that what you had in mind, Marni?
Next: The Romans, from whom we have received great philosophical thought, have an ancient history.
cook1
February 9, 2007 - 12:57 pm
(#630) Jiw...isn't the relative pronoun "of which" genitive, making the
Latin word: quōrum (neuter, pl)?
Hella
February 9, 2007 - 01:23 pm
"(#630) Jiw...isn't the relative pronoun "of which" genitive, making the Latin word: quōrum (neuter, pl)?"
Ive been thinking about this one, Cook. thing res is feminine in Latin. of which I would say is dative. The possession of something is not meant in this case, I dont think.
So I would use quibus fem. dative pl. I wonder what Ginny has to say to this .
cook1
February 9, 2007 - 02:05 pm
#632 Hella...LOL...it sure makes sense that it would be dative ( showing, telling, giving) but what to do about the "OF which". LOL. This is really a confusing one.
marni0308
February 9, 2007 - 03:01 pm
I thought cook had it right on this one - quorum - "of which" on our chart is Genetive.
I thought the antecedent was "some" (which in turn refers back to "things") - and some is plural neuter.
Leave it to Mark Twain to give us an interesting one to work with!
marni0308
February 9, 2007 - 03:09 pm
The Romans, from whom we have received great philosophical thought, have an ancient history.
antecedent - Romans
clause - (from) whom we have received great philosophical thought
Ablative, plural, masc - quibus
Next: The boys to whom they gave the books were in high school.
JIW
February 9, 2007 - 03:13 pm
Re #630, I stand corrected on the gender things. I was thinking that thing in English refers to an inanimate object, so would be neuter. But I forgot that res is feminine.
Hella, can you explain why you think the pronoun is dative? I do not see that "to" or "for" would work in this phrase, nor do I see the showing, telling, giving. What am I missing?
My answer was based on"which" referring to the terrible things being the subject. But on re-reading, I realize terrible things is the object of the preposition through. In that case, would which be ablative, quibus?
cook1
February 9, 2007 - 04:08 pm
#636 My answer was based on"which" referring to the terrible things being the subject. But on re-reading, I realize terrible things is the object of the preposition through. In that case, would which be ablative, quibus?
If that be the case, then would not the antecedent be "my life" which is genitive, explaining "of which"! LOL...
Hella
February 11, 2007 - 08:59 am
JIW, my reasoning was that "some of which" does not imply possession in this case. But to tell the truth, I'm thoroughly confused now that I read all the comments. My reasoning for the dative was flawed. But I still don't think it's the genitive. Now I'm really curious what Ginny has to say.
Cook, I don't think "life" is the antecedent. In my opinion it is "things," some of which (things) are terrible.
Ginny
February 11, 2007 - 09:16 am
Sorry, have been delayed or waylaid depending on how you think about it by the flu. I have not had the flu in ages and years and you KNOW how it makes you feel, that's why no homework is yet returned, I am going to tie self to chair surrrounded by meds and knock it out (or knock me out) this afternoon.
But what better thing to see than an intelligent debate over which case or use to use, something I have not seen in a good quarter of a century before we started our classes, so congratulations to all of you for this lively and informative debate.
First off this one I missed earlier and we need to correct it. I think our problem here is a difference in the requirements of English and Latin, in both instances.
If you have identified the word which is the antecedent, then your which or who or what has to agree with THAT word in gender and number, and it will take its case from its use in its own clause.
Ergo! hahaha
watched the dogs that were swimming in the pond.
antecedent: dogs
relative clause: that were swimming in the pond
Nom. pl. neut. = quae
No, dogs are masculine because canis is masculine so it's qui
I have been through some terrible things in my life, some of which actually happened.
Here "things" is res, rei, ferminine, no matter what it is in English, the antededent is res, feminine.
In Latin "some" would agree with res, in that "some" would be feminine and plural. In the clause "I have been through some terrible things in my life," THINGS would be Accusative and feminine ("been through" having the same meaning as endured).
You might not translate that SOME into Latin but if you did translate SOME it would have to be ferminine Nominative plural as it's the subject: some happened.
"OF which" remains OF which, and OF always without exception takes the Genitive case. "Which" refers back to "things:" res, plural, feminine and in the original clause it's Accusative but what matters is its use in the Relative Clause:
So you need a feminine genitive plural word and in its own clause it's OF which so it's quarum.
How about that one?
Who's on first, again?
hahaaha Super reasoning here!
How about this one?
These are the times which try men's souls (watch out for the word TIMES in Latin)____________
OR try this one:
He who would valiant be, 'gainst all disaster....
JIW
February 11, 2007 - 10:58 am
Ginny: Just when I think I have this figured out, I get confused! In the example you used above:
watched the dogs that were swimming in the pond.
antecedent: dogs
relative clause: that were swimming in the pond
Nom. pl. neut. = quae
The verb in the primary clause is "watched," which implies that I (you/he/we, etc.) did the watching, so I am the subject. Wouldn't dogs then be the direct object? Why is "that" nominative instead of accusative?
JIW
February 11, 2007 - 11:10 am
These are the times which try men's souls (watch out for the word TIMES in Latin)____________
antecedent: times
relative clause: which try men's souls
Nom. pl. neut.: quae
Ginny
February 11, 2007 - 05:13 pm
Remember the Relative prounoun gets its gender from the antecedent and it's number from the antecedent but it's case from its use in its own Relative Clause
Question: The verb in the primary clause is "watched," which implies that I (you/he/we, etc.) did the watching, so I am the subject. Wouldn't dogs then be the direct object? Why is "that" nominative instead of accusative?
XXXwatched the dogs that were swimming in the pond.
antecedent: dogs
relative clause: that were swimming in the pond
Nom. pl. neut. = quae
This should be qui, canis is masculine, dogs is plural. and the Relative clause is THAT were swimming in the pond. In that Relative Clause THAT (which should be "which" actually) is the subject, they are the ones swimming in the pond, so it's qui. Does it say quae above? If so it's incorrect, let me go look again.
Dogs is the antecedent, it's masculine
It's plural
And no matter what it is in the initial clause, it's the subject of the Relative clause and in the Nominative case.
JIW
February 11, 2007 - 05:27 pm
Ginny: AHA! The light dawns. I had thought the relative pronoun also took its case from the antecedent, but you have set me straight. Thanks for the explanation.
Ginny
February 11, 2007 - 05:37 pm
Eureka!! Isn't it fun? I love (and for some reason lately I'm having a lot of light dawnings) but I love the...feeling! hahaha
How about These are the men in whom I have placed my trust______________
Ginny
February 12, 2007 - 04:02 am
A bright good morning to you all and I'm excited to hear your latest installment of Perseus today, feel free to discuss what you have with your classmates.
We meanwhile will move thru this chapter which centers on the Relative Pronoun: quick: wouldn't you know many of these forms already?
This is one IMPORTANT dude, so we have to bide a wee on him, I think you all have the idea, however, from the homework, which is excellent.
I'm looking forward to the return of several of our group this morning, and I'm raring to go.
Our Spring Break for my classes will be the week of March 5-9, with the weekends before and after which will make it March 3-11, so we need to get well set up before then.
We have very little in the way of vocabulary in THIS chapter, so we'll concentrate again on the Relatives when we get thru the story.
See L&A!
CubFan
February 12, 2007 - 06:02 am
After this Peseus came into the borders of the Aethiopeans.
JCollins
February 12, 2007 - 06:28 am
There a certain Cepheus was ruling at the time.
EllH
February 12, 2007 - 06:43 am
He had once offended the sea god Neptune.
JCollins
February 12, 2007 - 06:51 am
However,Neptune sent a fierce monster.
JIW
February 12, 2007 - 07:17 am
Daily this monster used to come out of the sea and devour men.
JCollins
February 12, 2007 - 07:31 am
For this reason fear filled the minds of everyone.
formerfarmer
February 12, 2007 - 07:55 am
Cepheus therefore consulted Hammonis for the devine words of a god,
marni0308
February 12, 2007 - 08:02 am
upon which he was ordered by the god to drag his daughter to the monster.
JCollins
February 12, 2007 - 08:45 am
His daughter, also, moreover ?, by the name of Andromeda, was a most beautiful young maiden.
JIW
February 12, 2007 - 08:48 am
But his daughter, named Andromeda, was a very beautiful virgin.
marni0308
February 12, 2007 - 08:54 am
Cepheus, where he heard this, felt great grief.
JIW
February 12, 2007 - 09:01 am
Marni: Ubi can also mean when. Would it be better to say "when Cepheus heard this"?
JIW
February 12, 2007 - 09:02 am
Yet he was willing to release his people from such a great danger, . . .
Hella
February 12, 2007 - 09:04 am
Ginny, so of can never be anything but genitive in Latin? This sentence in English for example: the boys, of whom I knew one,
.. In this case in English of would be a dative preposition, would it not?
I am not sure how that would be Dative but OF is always Genitive). How are you sseing that Dative? But you would still use the genitive in Latin? Sorry to harp on this, but I want to be clear when I argue with myself.
Hella
February 12, 2007 - 09:20 am
and because of her cause decided to make Hammonis the commander.
formerfarmer
February 12, 2007 - 09:34 am
He wished however to release the citizens from such great danger
Ginny
February 12, 2007 - 12:00 pm
Welcome back, Jack!
This Hammonis character is really the god Hammon, which is another way of spelling Ammon, Ammonis, who was a Libyian deity, worshipped by the Romans aa Jupiter Ammon, so his Nominative is Hammon.
JIW
February 12, 2007 - 12:10 pm
Hella: I believe commander is imperator, imperatoris. I read the imperata in the text as accusative plural, direct object of facere. My translation of the clause: ...and for this reason he resolved to perform (obey) the commands of Ammon. BTW, in Traupman's dictionary, Hammon is defined as the Egyptian god Ammon.
JCollins
February 12, 2007 - 12:52 pm
Thanks Ginny--Enjoyed the week with my son --Jack
Ginny
February 12, 2007 - 04:51 pm
Oh my goodness, here I sit staring wondering what's up and you're THROUGH! And I've just gone back through and I think you've done a fabulous job!
I believe I would translate imperata as commands as we can see it in the vocabulary as imperatum, and here we meet for the first time Andromeda! I think you'll enjoy their story, have got a super link for you.
Meanwhile let's continue with our Relative Clause practice:
Here's one, what's (1) the relative clause (2) the antecedent (this is somewehat of a diversion from the current L&A assignment but we've got it clearly in the heading so I say let's use THAT one) and (3) what the Latin would be for that particular relative pronoun.
Here's a tricky one: A number of women were seen who were carrying red flags.
Hella
February 12, 2007 - 05:03 pm
the boys, of whom I knew one,
.. --
"I am not sure how that would be Dative but OF is always Genitive). How are you sseing that Dative?" who - nom; whose - genetive; to whom, of whom - dative; whom - accus. That's why I thought this could be dative. I always thought genitive implies possession, ownership, of something. I don't see that in this sentence. That was my reasoning, and it appears very wrong. Thanks for clarifying this.
marni0308
February 12, 2007 - 09:37 pm
A number of women were seen who were carrying red flags. (This sentence is a bit awkward. I read it as "A number of women who were carrying red flags were seen.")
(1) the relative clause = who
(2) the antecedent = women
(3) the Latin = Nom. fem. pl. - quae
Next: A few children to whom they spoke were in the schoolyard.
Ken1
February 12, 2007 - 10:06 pm
A few children to whom they spoke were in the schoolyard.
1. The relative clause: to whom they spoke
2. antecedent - children
3. Dative, masculine, plural - quibus
He looked for the wave that would carry him to the shore.
formerfarmer
February 13, 2007 - 07:53 am
He looked for the wave that would carry him to the shore.
relative clause-that would carry him
antecedent--wave
Latin---nom, sing, fem.-quae
The weather which we are experiencing is unusual
cook1
February 13, 2007 - 08:21 am
The weather which we are experiencing is unusual.
Relative clause: which we are experiencing
Antecedent: weather
Latin Pronoun: Nom., s, Neuter - quae
Next: In Latin there is only one relative pronoun.
marni0308
February 13, 2007 - 08:31 am
In Latin there is only one relative pronoun.
I'm not finding a relative pronoun in this sentence. I think there is only one main clause, no relative clause. this is correct, good work, I got interrupted before I could deal with it properly!
Next: We walked to the only store in which we could buy apples.
Ginny
February 13, 2007 - 09:00 am
Great job here, hahha talk about getting interrupted, I saw THAT and went off on a fine seque intended to tackle the restrictive and non restrictive clause without looking at it clearly and Marni is right! AND I got interrupted before I could finish, forget this on the restrictive and non restrictive and don't be concerned with our modern THAT, a word used depending on whether or not the clause is restrictive in our modern use, as in the wave THAT would carry him to shore. Convert it mentally to WHICH and sail on. We think of WHICH as neuter, but in Ken's example it is definitely not, so let's not get sidetracked by our own 2007 ideas of "THAT" or WHICH. and let's use Marni's also!
I'd like to keep playing this game in class, do try to ask one sentence using ALL cases and numbers, there should be 12 in all, use famous quotes or not.
Here's another one to add to Marni's
To whom that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance.________________
cook1
February 13, 2007 - 09:12 am
We walked to the only store in which we could buy apples.
Relative Clause: in which we could buy apples.
Antecedent: store
Latin Pronoun: abla., sg., neuter - quō
Next: To whom that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance.
marni0308
February 13, 2007 - 10:02 am
"St. Valentine was a Priest, martyred in 269 at Rome and was buried on the Flaminian Way. He is the Patron Saint of affianced couples, bee keepers, engaged couples, epilepsy, fainting, greetings, happy marriages, love, lovers, plague, travellers, young people. He is represented in pictures with birds and roses."
The Origin of St. Valentine "The origin of St. Valentine, and how many St. Valentines there were, remains a mystery. One opinion is that he was a Roman martyred for refusing to give up his Christian faith. Other historians hold that St. Valentine was a temple priest jailed for defiance during the reign of Claudius. Whoever he was, Valentine really existed because archaeologists have unearthed a Roman catacomb and an ancient church dedicated to Saint Valentine. In 496 AD Pope Gelasius marked February 14th as a celebration in honor of his martyrdom.
The first representation of Saint Valentine appeared in a The Nuremberg Chronicle, a great illustrated book printed in 1493. [Additional evidence that Valentine was a real person: archaeologists have unearthed a Roman catacomb and an ancient church dedicated to Saint Valentine.] Alongside a woodcut portrait of him, text states that Valentinus was a Roman priest martyred during the reign of Claudius the Goth [Claudius II]. Since he was caught marrying Christian couples and aiding any Christians who were being persecuted under Emperor Claudius in Rome [when helping them was considered a crime], Valentinus was arrested and imprisoned. Claudius took a liking to this prisoner -- until Valentinus made a strategic error: he tried to convert the Emperor -- whereupon this priest was condemned to death. He was beaten with clubs and stoned; when that didn't do it, he was beheaded outside the Flaminian Gate [circa 269].
Saints are not supposed to rest in peace; they're expected to keep busy: to perform miracles, to intercede. Being in jail or dead is no excuse for non-performance of the supernatural. One legend says, while awaiting his execution, Valentinus restored the sight of his jailer's blind daughter. Another legend says, on the eve of his death, he penned a farewell note to the jailer's daughter, signing it, 'From your Valentine.'"
"Valentine was a holy priest in Rome, who, with St. Marius and his family, assisted the martyrs in the persecution under Claudius II. He was apprehended, and sent by the emperor to the prefect of Rome, who, on finding all his promises to make him renounce his faith in effectual, commended him to be beaten with clubs, and afterwards, to be beheaded, which was executed on February 14, about the year 270. Pope Julius I is said to have built a church near Ponte Mole to he memory, which for a long time gave name to the gate now called Porta del Popolo, formerly, Porta Valetini. The greatest part of his relics are now in the church of St. Praxedes. His name is celebrated as that of an illustrious martyr in the sacramentary of St. Gregory, the Roman Missal of Thomasius, in the calendar of F. Fronto and that of Allatius, in Bede, Usuard, Ado, Notker and all other martyrologies on this day. To abolish the heathens lewd superstitious custom of boys drawing the names of girls, in honor of their goddess Februata Juno, on the fifteenth of this month, several zealous pastors substituted the names of saints in billets given on this day."
http://www.catholic.org/saints/saint.php?saint_id=159
Ginny
February 13, 2007 - 11:47 am
Thank you for that Marni, that is so cute, so everybody is stuck on to whom that hath shall be given , huh? that IS a bad one as it incorporates two things, let's skip it and hone in on this one:
He dances well to whom fortune pipes? How about that one?
GeneJ
February 13, 2007 - 02:05 pm
He dances well to whom fortune pipes?
Relative clause: to whom fortune pipes
Antecedent: He
Latin relative: cui
I hope I listed this correctly.
forgot the next; Here it is. Next: For whom the bell tolls is knowledgeable.
cook1
February 13, 2007 - 02:18 pm
I don't know how to address a sentence that starts with: to whom, for whom. Can someone clear this up for me? Thanks.
GeneJ
February 13, 2007 - 02:59 pm
cook1: It may not be a proper sentence for our exercise purposes. If not. Please; chime in folks.
Gene (I'm the culprit who put the sentence there. Just popped into my head.)
Latin does not care about word order, you'd start with cui!
GeneJ
February 13, 2007 - 03:26 pm
I've just come from the L&A and saw the impromptu listing by Ginny. Congratulations. I imagine you are a little excited, judging by the number of SHRIEKS.
Gene
Folks, have a peek at the L&A.
Ginny
February 13, 2007 - 03:29 pm
Thanks, Gene. And we're under a tornado watch, to boot@
cook1
February 13, 2007 - 05:00 pm
Adding my Congratulations, also. I'm so happy for you...What great news.
Ginny
February 14, 2007 - 03:36 am
Thank you Cook! It's very exciting!
Well a bright good morning to you all, great work here, and Happy Valentine's Day, kiss a Latinist! Hahahaa
As you can see I stole Marni's cute valentine for all the classes~!
As today we have no homework we're ready to hear what you may have found out about Valentine's Day and the million and one legends, but which one concerns the Romans?!? Or does any?!? Food for thought!
Today I thought we'd try something clever and I may not be clever enough to explain it but essentially our class work will be in two parts.
Part I: We'll do a Treasure Hunt in the story of Templa Deorum to find ALL of the Relative Pronouns.
We'll do it line by line, see L&A, so I'll go first:
Line 1____________
Now if YOU happen in, you'd say either:
There are no relative pronouns in this line: Line 2 for the next person_________
IF there are is than one relative pronoun you'd say:
I'll do the first, quo, Ablative, antecedent place (or whatever it is) masculine singular and....2nd pronoun__________ for the next person.
When we get through the entire story (let's number the pronouns we find, I am curious to see how many there are) we'll do a fast quiz on the pronouns themselves:
Like (don't look) masculine plural Accusative___________(quos)
See how fast you can do them without looking!
So I'll go first, Templa Deorum, Treasure Hunt for Relative pronouns: line 1?____________________
mouseketeer
February 14, 2007 - 05:05 am
No relative pronoun in line one. Next person, line 2.
Ginny
February 14, 2007 - 05:38 am
AND since it's Valentine's Day I have been rereading our fine latest issue of Ecce and recall that I wanted to ask Jack now that he's back about his writing a book review or article to come? Can you tell us about that, Jack? I enjoyed your article for Ecce very much!
cook1
February 14, 2007 - 06:05 am
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/valentinesday/a/gamelion.htm
Februarius, in Rome, was also a month for purification -- in preparation for the new year which began in March. Houses were swept, and sprinkled with salt and spelt.
February, Purification, and the Lupercalia
The word Februarius itself comes from a word meaning purification or purgation.
Twin themes of purification and fertility come together in the Roman holiday called Lupercalia. Priests (luperci) of two colleges (Quintilii and Fabii) met at the cave where the she-wolf supposedly nursed the founding twins Romulus and Remus. Vestal Virgins offered their holy salt cakes. Priests sacrificed a dog and a goat, and smeared the animal blood on two boys who, clad only in a bit of goatskin, later led a band of revelers (luperci) whose antics included whipping bystanders with a goatskin strip (februa). Women so whipped -- even barren ones -- were thought to become fertile. The priests may also have paired up youth of both sexes who were to stay paired up for the remainder of the year.
History of Valentines Day
From Cory Silverberg,
Theories on the Origin of Valentine's Day
There are several theories as to the history and origins of Valentines Day. For the romantics, the history of Valentines Day is suitably shrouded in mystery. For the cynics, it is surprisingly that none of the stories about the history of Valentines Day involve a secret cabal of greeting card, chocolate, and flower companies. Here are some of the more commonly held ideas about how Valentine's Day came to be.
The Various St. Valentines
One Valentine history tale tells of a third century Roman priest (who was later sainted) named Valentine who defied the law of the day and performed marriages for young lovers (at the time marriage was seen as a problem for the state and for the army, and marriage for young men was outlawed). He was imprisoned, and while in jail he fell in love with the jailors daughter. He sent her notes in prison and signed them from your Valentine.
http://sexuality.about.com/od/valentinesday/a/valentinehistor.htm He sent her notes in prison and signed them from your Valentine.
In another story the jailors daughter was blind, and Valentine restored her sight. It is thought that Valentines Day began as a commemoration of the death of Saint Valentine.
There is another story (with upsetting Michael Jackson overtones) that describes Valentine as a Christian who made friends with many Romans, and in particular many children. He was imprisoned by the Romans for refusing to worship their gods, and the children would throw notes to him in his jail cell (explaining why people exchange messages on Valentines Day).
Pope Gelasius declared February 14 St. Valentine's Day around 498 A.D.
Valentines Day as the Christian Answer to the Lupercalia Festival
Another theory as to the origins of Valentines Day is that it was created to Christianize the Lupercalia festival which happened around the middle of February.
Variously described as being dedicated to Faunus, the Roman god of agriculture, to Juno, goddess of women and marriage, and to Romulus and Remus, the founders of Rome who were said to have been cared for by a she-wolf, the Lupercalia festival, in honor of Lupercus, the hunter of wolves, involved fertility rituals, as well as a ritual of drawing names out of a container to determine romantic couplings.
It is thought that the date of Valentines Day was chosen to offer an exciting alternative for Christians who were lured in by all the goat and dog sacrifices.
Valentines Day is for the Birds
Yet another piece of the Valentines Day history puzzle involves Geoffrey Chaucer and a 14th English century belief that birds chose their mate for the year on February 14.
cook1
February 14, 2007 - 06:21 am
There are no relative pronouns in this line 1:
The forests were the first temple of the gods.
Line 2 for the next person:
GeneJ
February 14, 2007 - 06:31 am
Line 2 for the next person:
There is one --- quī
Antecedent: virī
Nominative, plural
Next: Line 3
JCollins
February 14, 2007 - 06:34 am
Hi Ginny--Add my congratulations for your forthcoming publication--I know how exciting that can be.
Yes --I write book reviews for various publications as well as articles in scholary journals--The Merton Annual--The Merton Seasonal etc as well as a monthly column about Thomas Merton in the Catholic Free Press which is the Catholic newspaper for the Worcester and Central Mass. area.One of my monographs made it into a book published by the Univ. Of Rochester Press. The book is titled "Destined for Evil"and it is a series of monographs written by scholars.It can be viewed on Amazon and the review at the site lists contributors of the various chapters. My article was taken from a paper I gave at The College of Holy Cross on the topic of evil in our society.Another paper I gave at Univ. San Diego in 2005 is coming out soon in the latest The Merton Annual. In June of 2007 I will be giving a paper on Walker Percy and Thomas Merton at the Christian Brothers Univ. in Memphis TN It will appear in a later publication. My forthcoming book review, that you mentioned, will be in the Cistercian Studies Quarterly which is a scholarly journal devoted primarily, but not exclusively, to medieval studies. Yes I am beginning to cope with the Latin phrases and references in this great journal. My article in Ecce was based on some Latin refernces in that journal. I enjoy whatever time I can give to this Latin course(wish I could devote more time and perhaps I can at some point) as I have benefited greatly from your kind and gentle direction as well as the very helpful guidance from my wonderful colleagues and classmates.Will be happy to answer any other questions you have and thanks for your response to the ECCE article. Now back to relative clauses-Jack
JCollins
February 14, 2007 - 06:40 am
I BELIEVE THE NEXT CLAUSE IS LINE 5 WHERE I SEE THE PRONOUN 'QUO' WHICH REFERS(ANTECEDENT) TO CAELO.
JCollins
February 14, 2007 - 07:46 am
Since I was not able to post yesterday I will try another one.
Line 7 'quae' refers back(antecedent) to sacra loca
GeneJ
February 14, 2007 - 10:12 am
Jack left us off at line 7, so continuing on:
Line 8: no relative clause on this line.
Next: Line 9
Hella
February 14, 2007 - 10:17 am
Line 7 " quibus", antecedent also loca sacra.
JCollins
February 14, 2007 - 10:32 am
line 9---quo--antecedent is frumentum
marni0308
February 14, 2007 - 10:43 am
I think there is another relative pronoun in sentence 8 (or 7?):
quae, after "ad" - Acc. pl. Neuter, antecedent loca
Next: line 9, another one
(I'm getting confused about the numbers of the lines!)
JIW
February 14, 2007 - 11:17 am
Line 9: There is another relative pronoun -- quod
Antecedent: auxilium perpetuum
accusative, neuter, sing.
Since line 10 has only two words, may I take that too? Neither is a relative pronoun.
Next: Line 11
JIW
February 14, 2007 - 11:18 am
Ginny: Let me add my congratulations on the article in Booknotes. That is indeed exciting.
Jack: And to you, thanks for the information on your writings. Most interesting.
And to Marni and Cook: Thanks for the St. Valentine information.
JCollins
February 14, 2007 - 11:22 am
On line 11 I find ob which is a preposition. I am using the printed numbers to the left as a guide. On line 12 I find quae which has the antecedent templa.
JCollins
February 14, 2007 - 11:25 am
Thank you JIW for your kind comment. Jack
JIW
February 14, 2007 - 11:29 am
Line 13 has none.
EllH
February 14, 2007 - 12:32 pm
The next one I see is in line 17--quas antec.pictures
Congratulations on a great accomplishment, Ginny.
Jack, do you want to teach us about Merton?
JCollins
February 14, 2007 - 12:50 pm
I believe the next line is 20---quorum--antecedent is Viri
JCollins
February 14, 2007 - 12:55 pm
EllH --I have been running a Thomas Merton discussion group for 5 years. I am open to any ideas that you may have about a procedure or process on-line. Perhaps Seniornet could provide a vehicle. I do not know how many people have an interest in Thomas Merton. I am always happy to share my knowledge about Merton and Walker Percy as well.-Jack
JIW
February 14, 2007 - 04:02 pm
Ginny: In lines 20-21: Viri mali quorum...fugiebant is plural. Why is vita...erat singular if it is referring to the lives of those men? (In the deep recesses of my mind I seem to recall discussing something like this a year or so ago.)
Ginny
February 14, 2007 - 04:49 pm
Great work here, thank you all for the nice congratulations, I appreciate that.
Thank you for the wonderful background information, too, there is quite a body of myth surrounding this old tale.
Jack that's quite impressive, our Latin students are incredible people, those we know about and those we don't, we must harness this tremendous abiity, thank you for telling us that!
And I think you all have done a fabulous job with that half hysterical amorphous assignment and you have finished as well, now THAT's impressive!
JIW, I seem to remember something too but they used the singular vita because the plural means biographies, it's like that word litterae in the plural means one epistle, unless it has an adjective modifier: that's UH for you, they do not want you to be out at a Valentine's Party and get asked that and have to blush!!!
Great job here and I'll see you bright and early in the morning! Happy Valentine's Day (you could do the qui quae quod exercise if you felt like playing?)
I'll go first: give (without looking ) the Accusative neuter singular of qui quae quod________________
JIW
February 14, 2007 - 11:34 pm
Thank you, Ginny, for the vita explanation. I did see the footnote on p. 207, but obviously it did not sink in what they were saying!
JIW
February 14, 2007 - 11:36 pm
Accusative neuter singular of qui quae quod
quod
Next: genitive plural feminine
Ginny
February 15, 2007 - 05:18 am
Well a bright good morning to you this morning here on February 15, one of the oldest festivals ever recorded!
CAESAR
Calpurnia!
CASCA
Peace, ho! Caesar speaks.
CAESAR
Calpurnia!
CALPURNIA
Here, my lord.
CAESAR
Stand you directly in Antonius' way,
When he doth run his course. Antonius!
ANTONY
Caesar, my lord?
CAESAR
Forget not, in your speed, Antonius,
To touch Calpurnia; for our elders say,
The barren, touched in this holy chase,
Shake off their sterile curse.
..... Julius Caesar Act I sc i
As you recall from reading Shakespeare, Julius Caesar wanted his wife front and center as the play opens, as it's the Lupercalia, as you've seen from some of the links yesterday: February 15, today.
Originally a shepherd's festival, and one of the most ancient Roman festivals there is, every year on the 15th of February, the Lupercalia was held, in honor of Faunus, who was worshipped under the name Lupercus. The Oxford Companion to Classical Literature says apparently in some connection with driving waway wolves, ,
lupi from the flocks.
The primary purpose was to insure fertility for the fields, the flocks and the people.
The worshippers gathered at the Lupercal, a cave on the Palatine Hill, where Romulus and Remus were supposed to have been raised. Here the Luperci a priestly collegium (college) drawn from particular patrician families sacrificed goats and a dog and two youths of noble family were then smeared with the blood of the sacrifice, a ceremony which was probably a symbol of purification of the shepherds.
The Luperci then clad their naked bodies in part of the skins of the sacrificed goats and with the rest cut into thongs, they and some of the magistrates ran through the streets of the old Roma Quadrata striking with the thongs all whom they met, especially women, who put themselves in the way of blows in order to be rendered fertile. The act of running was a symbolic purification of the land, the thongs were called februa , "means of purification" and the month in which the ceremony took place februarius the time of purification.
And so that's where we get the name of the month of February.
It was Pope Gelasius apparently in the 5th Century AD (the same one who, in another apocryphal story, changed the drawing of lots of girl's names on that day to a drawing of the name of a saint whose life the person who drew that name would seek to emulate for the rest of the year, who changed the mid February feast day to February 14, in honor of St. Valentine.
This morning if you view the L&A we're moving on! In one shake of a lamb's tail I'll have a new assignment in the heading for us using only the new vocabulary words so we can get used to them. I HATE to leave the Relative Pronoun (which means we will see more on it next week) so be sure you can work with it!
As I'm sure you have noticed, due to a Series of Unfortunate Events I am unfortunately totally behind in returning the work, (never fear, it calls to me every second) but hope to have it all back safely with comments today, and we must not let that stop our forward course, so see heading, see L&A and stand well clear of anybody running thru the street with thongs! (Actually yesterday one of my Furman students reminded me that last March in Greece we did encounter people in Mardi Gras type costumes parading thru the streets sort of biffing each other and the spectators with sort of funny biff items, I sure hope that was not some modern kind of fertility rite! hahahaa)
I'll go first: a synopsis of obtain in the Passive 1st person plural ONLY__________________________ and translate if you like?
mouseketeer
February 15, 2007 - 05:20 am
genitive plural feminine: quarum
Next: dative neuter plural
formerfarmer
February 15, 2007 - 08:34 am
obtineo, obtinere, obtinui, obtentus
obtinemur--we are held
obtinebamur--we are being held
obtinebimur--we will be held
obtenti sumus--we have been held
obtenti eramus--we had been held
obtentierimus--we shall have been held
formerfarmer
February 15, 2007 - 08:37 am
Next; save-second per. pl. passive
EllH
February 15, 2007 - 09:34 am
save-second per. pl perf.
conservo conservare conservavi conservatus
conservamini
conservabamini
conservabimini
conservati estis
conservati eratis
conservati eritis
next seek 3rd per pl pass.
mouseketeer
February 15, 2007 - 10:06 am
Seek 3rd p. pl. passive
petuntur
petebantur
petentur
petiti sunt
petiti erant
petiti erunt
Next: maintain 1st p pl. active
cook1
February 15, 2007 - 10:58 am
maintain 1st p pl. active
sustineō, sustinēre, sustinuī, sustentus
sustinēmus We maintain.
Sustinēbamus We were maintaining.
Sustinēbimus We shall maintain.
Sustinuimus We have maintained.
Sustinueramus We had maintained.
Sustinuerimus We shall have maintained.
Next: interrupt, 2nd. P., sg., passive.
GeneJ
February 15, 2007 - 11:31 am
Next: interrupt, 2nd. P., sg., passive.
intermittō, intermittere, intermīsī, intermissus
intermitteris --- you are sent
intermittēbaris --- you were sent
intermittēris --- you will be sent
intermissus es --- you have been sent
intermissus erās --- you had been sent
intermissus eris --- you will be sent
Next: move deeply, 3rd pers., pl., passive
marni0308
February 15, 2007 - 11:53 am
Oh, I'm so behind. I've been out shoveling ICE! Our snowblower is broken, not that it could get through the ice anyway.
I'll be back later! Sorry!
Marni
GeneJ
February 15, 2007 - 12:15 pm
Marni:
I know what you mean. I only had a few feet of snow outside the garage (not in depth, in width or in distance from the garage door. - the height was about 6 to 8 inches.). That snow was frozen. No way a shovel would do the job. I had to work on it with an ice pick, the ice chopper variety. I went in shifts, an hour or so, then in the house to rest. Then back out. I got it all cleared after a few hours. Oh, where does the morning go. Marni, be careful and don't overdo.
If your snow is like the snow I worked with, then the snowblower wouldn't work anyhow.
Getting a little away from Latin here in the classroom. Pardon folks.
Gene
Ginny
February 15, 2007 - 01:38 pm
I'm seeing the snow photos (great work here, everybody!) and I am so jealous but now don't you all go have heart attacks!! That's hard work, sit inside, do some Latin, build a fire? Have some hot cocoa and read a book! No snow shovelling!
formerfarmer
February 15, 2007 - 02:08 pm
move deeply, 3rd pers., pl., passive
permoveo, permovEre, permovi, permotus
permoventur--they are being moved
permovebantur--they were being moved
permovebuntur--they shall be moved
permoti sunt---they have been moved
permoti erant---they had been moved
permoti erunt---they shall have been moved
next: interrupt 3d,sing.passive
mouseketeer
February 15, 2007 - 02:20 pm
Next: move deeply, 3rd pers., pl., passive
I don't envy you all that ice. You all be careful as Ginny advised!!
permoventur they are deeply moved
permovebantur they were deeply moved
permovebuntur they will be deeply moved
permoti sunt they have been deeply moved
permoti erant they had been deeply moved
permoti erunt they will have been deeply moved
Next: ask 1st p pl passive
JCollins
February 15, 2007 - 02:43 pm
Next: ask 1st p pl passive
rogamur--we are asked
rogabamur-we were asked
rogabimur--we will be asked
rogati sumus--we have been asked
rogati eramus-we had been asked
rogati erimus--we will have been asked
next--conservo---2nd person plural passive
mouseketeer
February 15, 2007 - 02:58 pm
Jack, a question. Would we will be asked be rogabimur?
conservo 2nd p pl. passive
conservamini you are saved (preserved sounds too ghoulish!!)
conservabamini you were saved
conservabimini you will be saved
conservati estis you have been saved
conservati eratis you had been saved
conservati eritis you will have been saved
Next peto: 2nd p sing. passive
cook1
February 15, 2007 - 03:18 pm
conservo---2nd person plural passive
conservo, conservare, conservavi, conservatus ( save, preserve )
conservamini - you are saved.
conservabamini - you are being saved.
conservabimini - you will be saved.
conservati estis - You have been saved.
conservati eratis - you had been saved.
conservati eritis - you will have been saved.
Next: ask - 3rd. person, pl., passive.
Ginny
February 15, 2007 - 03:19 pm
Boy we're tearing the verbs up!! I really think if you have control of your verbs you own the world, er... ah.... good job!
JCollins
February 15, 2007 - 03:50 pm
Nancy
rogabimur is 1st per. pl. -future-passive--we will be asked
My format was confusing so it looks like I translated rogati sumus in the future passive whereas I translated it in the perfect passive. I should have separated the phrases better. Sorry. -Jack
JIW
February 15, 2007 - 04:06 pm
I am late getting to class today and do not even have the excuse of shoveling snow!
ask - 3rd. person, pl., passive.
petuntur: they are asked
petebantur: they were asked
petentur: they will be asked
petiti sunt: they have been asked
petiti erant: they had been asked
petiti erunt: they will have been asked
Next: 2 per. sg. active to let go
Ginny
February 15, 2007 - 04:41 pm
Super job, am I missing something? I'll go back, all homework is now returned and it's quite good!!! We're doing a super job with those Relative Pronouns, I'll find some more exercises, tricky little devils, aren't they?
Great job!
Maryemm
February 16, 2007 - 06:02 am
Freaky Friday!!! Good morning, Everyone,
After his successful film about the Scottish doctor "befriended" by Idi Amin Kevin Macdonald revealed yesterday that he hopes to make his next feature film based on the story of Scotland's lost Roman legion.
NEW FILM No one knows the fate of the Ninth Legion but some interesting facts can be found here:
THE NINTH LEGION Rosemary Sutcliffe's novel for " children,""The Eagle of the Ninth," is based on the mystery of the legion that marched into the mists of northern Britain.and was never seen again. Four thousand men disappeared and the eagle standard was lost.
The young hero, Marcus,determined to discover the fate of his father, sets out into the unknown on a quest so perilous that no one expects him to return.
Although supposedly written for youngsters this story is one that can be enjoyed by all ages. Ms Sutcliffe imbues the account with such passion and detail that one can imagine that she had actually lived in that age.
Her other books are well worth reading also.
<Available from Amazon and all bookshops in this Paperback form )
.................. Pascal remarked "Had Cleopatra's nose been shorter, the whole history of the world would have been different."
The discovery of a coin that bears the heads of Cleopatra and Mark Antony has resulted in newspaper headlines about the length of Cleopatra's nose. It seems that she bore no resemblance to Elizabeth Taylor!
Heads you lose! The 32BC coin showing Cleopatra's profile. Photograph: Owen Humphreys/PA We must remember, however, that she was able to seduce both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony, so the good lady must have had a fascinating unpredictability that appealed somehow to both leaders.
Throughout the centuries people have pondered over the question of what Cleopatra looked like:
CLEOPATRA'S BEAUTY Enobarbus, in Shakespeare's play "Antony and Cleopatra," speaks these memorable lines:
QUOTE: Age cannot wither her, nor custom stale
Her infinite variety: other women cloy
The appetites they feed: but she makes hungry
Where most she satisfies; UNQUOTE
............. Latest Roman finds: FINDS
mouseketeer
February 16, 2007 - 06:55 am
Ginny was asking about Roman basketry and whether we could replicate it. The following site gives an overview of some of their basketry. There is a picture of a basket on this site.
http://www.arch.soton.ac.uk/Projects/projects.asp?Division=1&SubDivision=4&Page=18&ProjectID=20 2002 - basketry, matting and cordage
As in previous seasons, the exceptional preservation at the site of Quseir al-Qadim produced a high quantity of material to be recorded. Overall, the amount of cordage recorded was slightly lower than in previous years, but this was compensated for by a greater quantity of matting and increased number of basketry items.
Distribution of cordage, matting and basketry by trench
Sixty-eight per cent of all the bulk cordage was 's' spun, with little difference between the Roman and Islamic trenches.
Ginny
February 16, 2007 - 06:56 am
Well a bright good morning to you all here on Freaky Friday and what wonderful things you've brought, maryemm, THANK you so much! They are fascinating.
I was able to see the last exhibit of Cleopatra, the latest finds (for that time) in the British Museum a couple of years ago and the news then was that she was not of Egyptian origin at all but was Greek!
Archaeologists all over the world are discovering new things every day which change our preconceived notions, but as you can see apparently even the ancients agreed she was no beauty. Sort of a Wallis Simpson then? Beguiling kings and emperors? You have to wonder, somehow I missed out on the charm boat entirely!
I am thinking that we've worked really hard in all our classes and we'll take this weekend off for some R and R. We have people out sick, we have people with surgery, let's rest on our laurels a bit and try to hone in on those Relative Pronouns which seem to be the only thing we're the least bit not sure of.
The word WHICH and THAT seem to be causing a lot of problems. Remember, no matter what we think of as neuter in English makes no difference. It also makes no difference what English word we use to translate it, what does matter for Latin is the antecedent, its gender and number.
Let's work in class with the Relative Pronoun today.
Also today you can ask any question you'd like!
Well a bright good morning to you all here on Freaky Friday and what wonderful things you've brought, maryemm, THANK you so much! They are fascinating.
I was able to see the last exhibit of Cleopatra, the latest finds (for that time) in the British Museum a couple of years ago and the news then was that she was not of Egyptian origin at all but was Greek!
Archaeologists all over the world are discovering new things every day which change our preconceived notions, but as you can see apparently even the ancients agreed she was no beauty. Sort of a Wallis Simpson then? Beguiling kings and emperors? You have to wonder, somehow I missed out on the charm boat entirely!
I am thinking that we've worked really hard in all our classes and we'll take this weekend off for some R and R. We have people out sick, we have people with surgery, let's rest on our laurels a bit and try to hone in on those Relative Pronouns which seem to be the only thing we're the least bit not sure of.
The word WHICH and THAT seem to be causing a lot of problems. Remember, no matter what we think of as neuter in English makes no difference. It also makes no difference what English word we use to translate it, what does matter for Latin is the antecedent, its gender and number.
Let's work in class with the Relative Pronoun today.
Also today you can ask any question you'd like!
Ginny
February 16, 2007 - 06:58 am
Oh wow, Nancy, that is fascinating! (NANCY is teaching basketmaking, her basket having won at the fair, remember!) If this were a high school class we'd know what HER Latin Project would be, how exciting, thank you Nancy!!
I hope all of you who are under the weather or having surgery are recuperating nicely and getting along well!
marni0308
February 16, 2007 - 10:50 am
Interesting links! Thank you!
I'm looking forward to that movie about the 9th. I loved the recent movie "Arthur" which showed King Arthur and his knights as Roman soldiers.
Cleopatra was the name of Alexander the Great's sister (c. 356 BC - 308 BC), daughter of King Philip II of Macedon and Olympias. A number of Macedonian queens were named Cleopatra. I read that Cleopatra was descended from Ptolemy I who was a general of Alexander the Great. I read that Ptolemy was a Greek-educated Macedonian - "The only one of all the great Macedonian chiefs to die a natural death in his bed."
"Ptolemy V. married Cleopatra, daughter of Antiochus of the Seleucid realm. From this moment on we see the name "Cleopatra" branded into Egyptian history. He was the first of the kings of the house of Ptolemy to be enthroned as pharaoh at Memphis. Ptolemy was a young man "whose leading passion was openair sports, hunting, and athletic exercises - a genuine Macedonian..."
"...On the death of Ptolemy XII in 51 b.c. his eldest surviving daughter, Cleopatra VII., began her reign as queen of Egypt at the age of seventeen. According to the will of her father, the elder of her two brothers, Ptolemy XIII., was associated with her as king. In Cleopatra VII. the dynasty founded by the shrewd Macedonian marshal in Egypt, nearly three hundred years before, was destined to come to an end.54 The dignity of the royal house had never been brought so low - the king a servant of the Romans, Egypt almost a Roman Province.
Cleopatra VII. had witnessed between the years of 60 and 52 b.c. the ever growing influence of Rome. She understood how Ptolemaic money could buy Roman influence.(Ptolemy XII.) She witnessed firsthand the rule of a woman over Egypt.(Berenice IV.) The last of a whole series of Cleopatras, Berenices, Arsinoes, she shows a family resemblance to those other queens and princesses of Macedonian blood - the same masculine purpose, passion for power, ruthlessness in killing.55 If Cleopatra's Macedonian blood gave her masculine energy and hard cruelty, the blood of her Greek Grandmother may have given her the physical seductiveness which fired men's blood.56
Age twenty-one, Cleopatra fled from the city, accused of wishing to oust her brother from the throne. She gathered up an army and was marching toward Egypt. Barring her way to the city near Pelusium was the palace-cabal57 in charge of the younger boy king. Julius Caesar brought about a reconciliation between Cleopatra and her younger brother Ptolemy XIII., Egypt having joint sovereign once again. Ptolemy XIII. drowned in the Nile during a battle in the Alexandrian war. Cleopatra allegedly bore Caesar a son, Caesarion.58 Upon his death Cleopatra returned to Egypt. In 41 b.c. she joumeyed to Tarsus to meet Marc Antony, to whom she bore twins.59 The mutual drive for universal rule set them against the forces of Octavian,60 who defeated them. Cleopatra and Antony committed suicide in 30 b.c."
http://members.tripod.com/~Kekrops/Hellenistic_Files/Ptolemaic_Egypt.html
JIW
February 16, 2007 - 11:34 am
So many interesting things here today. Thanks everyone. Ginny has suggested that we continue to work on relative pronouns, so I will start it off.
For he's a jolly good fellow, which nobody can deny.
mouseketeer
February 16, 2007 - 03:40 pm
For he's a jolly good fellow, which nobody can deny.
Antecedent: fellow
relative clause: which nobody can deny
which: direct object masculine quem This one might be fun to discuss, it's definitely the direct object, but what is the antecedent? In LATIN this sentence would not occur, but it sure does in English, so does it mean HE WHICH or a THING WHICH, nobody can deny. What would nobody deny? Him or the fact that he's a good fellow?
I think it's a thing which so I'd say quod but either way it's a good 'un to discuss! Sometimes I wish we were all sitting around the room discussing!
If you go to the store which belongs to John, you will get a good
buy.
GeneJ
February 16, 2007 - 05:12 pm
For he's a jolly good fellow, which nobody can deny.
Antecedent: fellow
relative clause: which nobody can deny
which: direct object masculine quem This one might be fun to discuss, it's definitely the direct object, but what is the antecedent? In LATIN this sentence would not occur, but it sure does in English, so does it mean HE WHICH or a THING WHICH, nobody can deny. What would nobody deny? Him or the fact that he's a good fellow?
For he's a jolly good fellow. The entire thing is the antecedent, that is, the entire sentence.
Ginny: That's my take.
Gene ----(my comments are confined to the English sentence and may not apply to the Latin)
Ginny
February 16, 2007 - 07:00 pm
Here's Descriptive English Grammar on the subject:
Dangling Adjective Clauses
A dangling adjective clause is one which is unattached or is attached to the wrong grammatical unit. Adjective clauses should modify nouns or pronouns and these should be expressed or clearly implied in the principal clause. If we say I arrived late, which made everyone angry the relative pronoun which has no noun antecedent. Such a sentence can be improved by converting it into a simple sentence containing a gerund subject: as My arriving late made every one angry. If we say He failed three subjects, which caused his father to take him out of school, we attempt to make the verb failed the antecedent. Here again, the sentence would be improved if we turn the adjective clause into a gerund phrase: as, His failing three subjects caused his father to take him out of school.
Sometimes a clause is misplaced, and the meaning of the sentence is obscure or illogical. If we say I delayed writing the letter which made him angry or Father told me to put my money in the bank, which I didn't like, .... [long explanations of these three here and how they can be fixed so that the pronoun has a noun antecedent, ending with:] The rule should be: avoid ambiguity.
So our example is a well known song, the antecedent of which however must be ONE noun in Latin or English or it's dangling dangling, dangling slowly in the wind.
mouseketeer
February 17, 2007 - 05:18 am
Let's try, try again, even with our difficulties!!
If you go to the store which belongs to John, you will get a good
buy.
Antecedent: story
Relative clause: which belongs to John
assuming store is taberna, f. which would be quae as the subject and
would be quae
The dog, whose ball a favotite toy, runs after it.
EllH
February 17, 2007 - 06:47 am
whose ball is a favorite toy-relative clause
antecedent-dog
ciuis-genitive
The governor to whom many complained is apologetic.
mouseketeer
February 17, 2007 - 07:12 am
governor: antecedent
to whom many complained: relative clause
dative: cui
Next The boy whose book is lost, is sad.
JIW
February 17, 2007 - 12:45 pm
After posting the jolly good fellow sentence, I realized it would present a problem because the antecedent was not in the sentence; but decided to leave it and see what happened. Thanks Ginny for your clarification. It is interesting that the English grammar discourages using such construction; however, we do it all the time and, for the most part, it is understood. I will be more careful, though, with the Latin!
JIW
February 17, 2007 - 12:51 pm
The boy whose book is lost, is sad.
Antecedent: boy
Relative clause: whose book is lost
Gen. masc. sing: cuius
Next: I have been given those horses, which once pulled chariots.
Ginny
February 17, 2007 - 01:48 pm
Yes, it's interesting tho and makes a super point of clarification I think, about the one word which the clause has to depend on, love it!
mouseketeer
February 18, 2007 - 03:04 pm
I have been given those horses, which once pulled chariots.
Antecedent: horses
Relative clause: which once pulled chariots.
qui
What has happened to the weather, that people noticed caused big
trouble?
Ginny
February 18, 2007 - 03:44 pm
let's givve which in that sentence a definite antededent:
What has happened to the weather (let's use tempestas which is feminine) which has changed so drastically in the last few years.
And how about _______________________
This is the house which Jack built________________
Ginny
February 19, 2007 - 06:15 am
Well a bright good morning to you all, Salvēte, Discipuli, and welcome here on what is President's Day in the US.
That makes me think of how many Presidents I can personally list without looking any up and of course that makes me think of a fun Trivia Game for YOU! See L&A and let's march on today. I am loth to leave the Relative Pronoun, I really enjoy it, so let's dwell on it one more night in homework. See L&A!
In class work let's try to see if we can do it without looking. That is, we'll ask a question and then give some clues and you will supply the correct form of the Relative Prounoun, we'll soon leave him for the Interrogative and I want to be sure that we're up on him so let's do ONE more day with him.
Soon we'll have quite the Ablative Challenge so be sure you've collected all of the uses of it carefully, I think you'll enjoy it.
For now I'll go first with Of whom ( feminine plural) now don't LOOK, GUESS__________________!! hahahaa, what fun, I absolutely LOVE the relative pronoun.
GeneJ
February 19, 2007 - 06:49 am
For now I'll go first with Of whom ( feminine plural) now don't LOOK, GUESS__________________!! hahahaa, what fun, I absolutely LOVE the relative pronoun.
quarum
Next: of whom -- genitive singular
JIW
February 19, 2007 - 07:08 am
of whom -- genitive singular
cuius
Next: for which plural
formerfarmer
February 19, 2007 - 07:43 am
took a guess, then looked and corrected.
for which plural
quibus
next: by whom
cook1
February 19, 2007 - 08:34 am
Sorry...I had to look.
by whom
quō
Next: that ( F, pl.)
marni0308
February 19, 2007 - 09:48 am
that ( F, pl.) - It can be either Nom or Accus If Nom, it is quae; if Accus., it is quas.
I am really having trouble memorizing these darn things. I keep having to look!!! I like these exercises, but I still have to look. Grrrrr!!!
Next: whose - masc. sing.
JCollins
February 19, 2007 - 09:55 am
Next: whose - masc. sing.
genitive--cuius
next--by whom fem. sing.
Ginny
February 19, 2007 - 10:06 am
The LOOKING thing, try this: try association.
For instance if you looked up quo ask yourself what other declension looks like O in the Ablative singular? templo? puero?
What this IS in fact is simply the endings you've always known for the most part jammed on QU
QU====as Feminine Accusative Plural
QU----orum: Masculine Genitive Plural
QUAE is different but I think that's the only one, isn't it?
QU---ibus is like mercatoribus, right?
QU----od is different.
so the only ones which are different are the neuters, right?
maybe cuius? We really need cuius down you 'll see that one again!
But QU===am and QU---em, piece of cake.
Divide and conquer I always say! hahaha
Try writing them out without looking and see what you can do?
GeneJ
February 19, 2007 - 11:10 am
next--by whom fem. sing.
quā
next; of them
mouseketeer
February 19, 2007 - 11:18 am
Of them: quorum, if masculine: quarum, if feminine
Next: Accusative, neuter, plural
JCollins
February 19, 2007 - 11:30 am
Question on #752 and #753
could of them be a form of a demonstrative pronoun
Jack
marni0308
February 19, 2007 - 12:03 pm
I don't see the word "them" listed on the relative pronoun list.
JIW
February 19, 2007 - 12:47 pm
Re: Question on #752 and #753, could of them be a form of a demonstrative pronoun
Jack: I checked "them" my English to Latin dictionary. It is listed as the demonstrative pronoun is, ea, id.
Ginny
February 19, 2007 - 12:48 pm
Them is a pronoun and the answers would be right for the Relative Pronoun , so let's just to the Relatives which relate so nicely back to ohthers for the meantime. Good points.
Which (Accusative Neuter Plural)
JIW
February 19, 2007 - 12:53 pm
Accusative, neuter, plural
quae
Next: by which, plural
EllH
February 19, 2007 - 01:35 pm
by which quibus
next: that-acc. pl
cook1
February 19, 2007 - 01:39 pm
by which, plural
quibus
Next: that ( acc./nom., sg., neuter)
JCollins
February 19, 2007 - 02:07 pm
Thanks Ginny and JIW for your responses.
Next: that ( acc./nom., sg., neuter)
quod
next---of which --fem. pl.
EllH
February 19, 2007 - 02:18 pm
of which OF is always Genitive, cuius
quarm
next:by which abl. sg. fem
GeneJ
February 19, 2007 - 02:20 pm
next---of which --fem. pl.
quārum
next: of whom, feminine singular
Folks, apologies for muddying the waters back aways.
Hella
February 19, 2007 - 03:14 pm
of whom, feminine singular - quarum
Next: to which neuter singular cuius is feminine singular
formerfarmer
February 19, 2007 - 03:24 pm
of whom, feminine singular
cuius
next: girl who
marni0308
February 19, 2007 - 03:56 pm
girl who
quae (fem. nom. s.)
Next: to whom (pl, masc)
cook1
February 19, 2007 - 06:25 pm
to whom (pl, masc)
quibus
Next: which boxes ( nom./acc/ neuter )
Ken1
February 19, 2007 - 09:54 pm
which boxes ( nom./acc/ neuter )
Nominative - quae
Accusative - quae
Next: by the children (Ablative Masculine)
Ginny
February 20, 2007 - 04:06 am
A bright good morning to you all!
GREAT work here and in homework, it's almost like reading college papers, they're that good. But what if I am missing one little thing here or there? Read on!!
I have been amazed at all the Roman Emperors you have known or famous figures, this is a very knowledgeable group! I used to know all of the Emperors in order but unfortunately have forgotten some of the minor ones, I enjoyed this exercise, particularly the Presidents. hahahaa
I am not sure if you all have seen the cartoon feature Finding Nemo, ("Nemo," of course being a Latin word hahaha) but in it there is a small character called "Dorrie" (or "Dory" I believe it's spelled) who has, despite what seem to be overwhelming odds, what I think is a great motto: "Just Keep Swimming," no matter what happens and I think that applies to us here as well.
About this time people begin to worry if they are not getting every single example in their homework perfect!
What's wrong with ME they think?
NOTHING! NOBODY is expected to get all these exercises exactly correct! ESPECIALLY Ullman HENRY!! Especially LATIN COMPOSITION, a subject most Latin majors do not take up until their senior year of study.
No no, the exercises in UH are diagnostic, they are not judgments of ability. They are intended to point out to you and to the Instructor where we need more work, or where, perhaps, you missed their little note #748367 on page XXX. So IF you miss one, don't hang it all up, but just make a note or start a note book: Things I Need to Work On, (or Arcane little notes they talked about that I misssed) hahaha, and make a note of it, and work on that yourself. Every person will have their own particular weakness: Latin is a big complicated language, kudos to you for getting this far, and NO PERSON, no person on earth, we all have our personal weaknesses, is perfect in all aspects of the language. Just Keep Swimming.
Thing is, Latin is a very orderly language, it's very much like geometry, remember geometry? You start out with one line and work down thru it, each new line taking on a new aspect from the one before it as you solve the big problem. IF there is a mistake in line 3 then line 4 will be wrong and so will line 5 and line 6 and line 7, sort of like logic, the end will be flawed if the middle is not correct. But that does not mean it's all awful, it just needs the tiniest tweak in line 3. The exercises in Ullman Henry are ALMOST like those difficult puzzles on Sundays in the paper, they are NOT easy!
There are actually sites where you can pit your own mind against the problem but who needs THEM? We've got Latin! A geometry challenge in words. All we have to do is put them together
See L&A and pat yourselves on the back, we're all doing splendidly, dare I say swimmingly? Hahaha OUCH! In this excellent class!
See L&A, I'll go first tho:
Page 206 line 13: ponēbatur________ make active and translate____________________
mouseketeer
February 20, 2007 - 05:18 am
Page 206 line 13: ponēbatur________ make active and
translate____________________
ponebat: he, she, it was placing
p 210 line 11 petivit_______make passive and translate _________
mouseketeer
February 20, 2007 - 05:20 am
Ginny, Great pep talk. I know I have sometimes become discouraged,
but have kept on treking. I hope everyone else does too, because I
love that I can go to class and see how and what everyone is doing.
Without all of you I would have not had such a wonderful time. Keep
it up. Hurray for Ginny!!!!!!!
Nancy
mouseketeer
February 20, 2007 - 05:21 am
By the way, do we have homework for tonight?
Ginny
February 20, 2007 - 06:05 am
hahaa Oh I thought I was being soooo efficient, did I not put it IN? hahaha Sigh sigh. I wonder WHERE I posted it?
Yes it's to translate the story of Colosseum for tomorrow's class , what, you didn't get that by ESP? hahahaaa
I'll go find wherever I posted it!
GeneJ
February 20, 2007 - 06:44 am
p 210 line 11 petivit_______make passive and translate _________
petitus est ---- he has been asked
next: page 88 line 6 dōnābimus make passive and translate
I LIKE THIS ASSIGNMENT!
mouseketeer
February 20, 2007 - 07:30 am
page 88 line 6 dōnābimus make passive and translate
donabimur We will be given.
Next: p 112 line 9 portaverunt make passive and translate
GeneJ
February 20, 2007 - 08:18 am
Next: p 112 line 9 portāvērunt make passive and translate
portātī sunt --- they have been sent
Next: page 141 line 14 scrīpsit make passive and translate.
cook1
February 20, 2007 - 08:54 am
page 141 line 14 scrīpsit make passive and translate.
Scrīptus est - he has written
Next: Pg. 195 - #22 - interficiō_______________make passive and translate.
marni0308
February 20, 2007 - 09:35 am
Scrīptus est - he has written
I'm wondering if this would be translated "it was written" to be passive. (I suppose you could "he/she was written" as in written out of the play, or something like that.)
good point. it would have to be scriptUM est however to be "it was or better has been written."
marni0308
February 20, 2007 - 10:01 am
Next: Pg. 195 - #22 - interficiō_______________make passive and translate.
interficior - I am killed
Next: Pg. 184 Practice 1 - trAxistis - make passive and translate
EllH
February 20, 2007 - 10:16 am
traxistis-tracti estis you have been dragged
pg. pg.206 videntur-make active & translate
formerfarmer
February 20, 2007 - 10:42 am
pg.206 videntur-make active & translate
vident-they see
next: pg. 187, line 2--afficiemini-make active and translate
JIW
February 20, 2007 - 10:44 am
pg.206 videntur-make active & translate
vident: they see
p. 66, line 3, augemus: make passive and translate
JIW
February 20, 2007 - 10:49 am
OOPS! Formerfarmer and I posted at the same time. I will take his challenge.
pg. 187, line 2--afficiemini-make active and translate
afficietis: you will affect
My next is in #782
GeneJ
February 20, 2007 - 11:06 am
p. 66, line 3, augemus: make passive and translate
augēmur - we are being increased
Next: page 116 line 15 dēbeō make passive and translate
JCollins
February 20, 2007 - 11:30 am
Next: page 116 line 15 dēbeō
make passive and translate
debeor-- -I am owed.
next- --p-145 line 1--voluntur--
-make active and translate
GeneJ
February 20, 2007 - 12:02 pm
next- --p-145 line 1--volvuntur--make active and translate
volvunt ---- They are being rolled (tossed by the waves)
Next: page 45 line 11 (first line on page) nūntiat - make passive and translate.
marni0308
February 20, 2007 - 12:43 pm
nūntiat - make passive and translate
nūntiAtur - he, she, it are announced
Next: pg. 185 - prOposuErunt - make passive and translate
EllH
February 20, 2007 - 12:57 pm
nuntiatur-it was announced
pg. 175 line 2
migraverat-make passive and translate
GeneJ
February 20, 2007 - 12:58 pm
Next: pg. 185 - prOposuErunt - make passive and translate
prōpositī sunt ---- they have been offered
next: page 206 line 12 faciēbant make passive and translate
EllH
February 20, 2007 - 01:11 pm
faciebant-faciebantur they were being made
pg 171 line 1 excesserat. make passive -translate
GeneJ
February 20, 2007 - 01:31 pm
pg 171 line 1 excesserat. make passive -translate
---ūrus ending --- no passive
Next: page 207 line one (first line on the page) fuērunt make passive and translate
mouseketeer
February 20, 2007 - 02:02 pm
page 207 line one (first line on the page) fuērunt make passive and translate
"to be" verb: no passive
p80 line 2 docuit make passive
GeneJ
February 20, 2007 - 02:08 pm
p80 line 2 docuit make passive
doctus est --- he has been taught
Next: page 116 line 10 posuimus make passive and translate
EllH
February 20, 2007 - 02:33 pm
posimus -positi sumus We have been placed
pg 210 line 13 permoti sunt
make active & translate
mouseketeer
February 20, 2007 - 02:43 pm
pg 210 line 13 permoti sunt
make active & translate
permoverunt they have moved (deeply)
Next: p182 line 17 invenit make passive and translate
JCollins
February 20, 2007 - 02:55 pm
Nancy--Add a "me too" to your post #771--Jack
formerfarmer
February 20, 2007 - 03:00 pm
Next: p182 line 17 invenit make passive and translate
inventus est--he was found
next: pg. 206 line 2, habitabant-make passive and translate
JCollins
February 20, 2007 - 03:28 pm
next: pg. 206
line 2, habitabant-
make passive and translate
habitabantur
they used to dwell
next--line
6 p-206
dixerunt-----make passive
and translate
GeneJ
February 20, 2007 - 03:53 pm
pg. 175 line 2 migraverat-make passive and translate
This is from #788 that was never answered.
Someone may wish to accept this challenge.
JIW
February 20, 2007 - 04:26 pm
From #788: pg. 175 line 2 migraverat-make passive and translate
Cannot be passive: migraturus
From #798: line 6 p-206 dixerunt-----make passive and translate
dicti sunt: they have been told
Next: p. 169, exercise A-4, amittetur -- make active and translate
Ginny
February 20, 2007 - 04:50 pm
super work here! All homework is now returned and we'll be ready for your rendition of Colosseum in the morning. When you finish with it if you'd like to keep on with this excellent exercise or do a new one I'm going to post feel free!!
formerfarmer
February 20, 2007 - 04:59 pm
p. 169, exercise A-4, amittetur -- make active and translate
amittet-he will let go
next: pg 172, line 19, monstrabo, make passive & translate
Ken1
February 20, 2007 - 08:36 pm
pg 172, line 19, monstrabo, make passive & translate
mōnstrābor - I shall be pointed out
Next:page 151, line 6, excēdēmus - make passive and translate.
JCollins
February 21, 2007 - 04:09 am
The Colosseum
The Roman people used to look at the games and parades(processions)with much enthusuasm.
Ginny
February 21, 2007 - 05:42 am
Great work here, great beginning and what appears to be a great day in our very short week!
See L&A and enjoy!!
mouseketeer
February 21, 2007 - 05:51 am
In Italy, in Africa, in France they Roman Theaters and Amphtheaters , neuter plurals as subject were preserved in the Roman
theaters and amphitheaters, in which the games were now also held.
GeneJ
February 21, 2007 - 06:06 am
The nature of men is varying but few do not like the games.
(Nobody doesn't like Sara Lee.)
EllH
February 21, 2007 - 06:26 am
Prisoners and bad slaves which the master had sent into the amphitheater were compelled to fight in the arena middle.
cook1
February 21, 2007 - 06:36 am
The Roman people interest of games never stopped.
fdobbs
February 21, 2007 - 06:38 am
The Roman people have never let go the interest of the games.
JCollins
February 21, 2007 - 06:43 am
Many prisoners with great hearts were fighting and were obtaining liberty.
fdobbs
February 21, 2007 - 06:47 am
Many bad men also were fighting for life and were enduring punishment in the arena.
GeneJ
February 21, 2007 - 06:48 am
Many bad men also used to fight for life and they used to endure punishment in the arena.
GeneJ
February 21, 2007 - 06:50 am
Once two gladiators were fighting in the Roma arena.
(I collided with Fran on the last one. Took another.)
JCollins
February 21, 2007 - 06:59 am
Then between the gladiators comes a brave and kind man without weapons who pleaded:
JCollins
February 21, 2007 - 07:02 am
Why do you fight?
GeneJ
February 21, 2007 - 07:26 am
Stop the battle, for you are friends. You offer a bad example."
EllH
February 21, 2007 - 07:54 am
The gladiators were not deeply moved by the words but they killed the good man.
GeneJ
February 21, 2007 - 08:01 am
The slaves began to drag the man from the arena.
marni0308
February 21, 2007 - 08:19 am
Then the people were deeply moved by anger because the man was Telemachus who always was friendly to the poor and had obtained much fame.
JIW
February 21, 2007 - 08:19 am
Then the people are deeply moved by anger, because the man was Telemachus, who was always a friend to the poor people and he had obtained great fame.
JIW
February 21, 2007 - 08:25 am
Marni and I posted at the same time. So the next line--
Afterwards gladiators never fought in the Colosseum, and the Colosseum is being preserved with great care.
marni0308
February 21, 2007 - 08:29 am
It was written: "As long as the Coliseum stands, Rome also stands."
JIW
February 21, 2007 - 08:35 am
When the Colosseum falls, Rome also falls.
JCollins
February 21, 2007 - 09:43 am
When Rome falls, the world also falls.
Ginny
February 22, 2007 - 06:03 am
BEAUTIFUL job here and of course at the end you can see JIW and Jack quoting the Venerable Bede. I have been entranced with all the new texts out for Latin and I see the Venerable Bede is also offered, wouldn't it be a treat to be able to read HIM?
I'm about to do the blue pencil on the translations, I did look in last night and THOUGHT I posted but it seems to have disparu as the
French say, so I'll just ponce on thru this morning but it's a beautiful job and today we'll hone in on our 6, count 'em, did you realize there were so many, 6 Ablatives?
We'll begin with the "With" Ablatives practice on page 229 and when those 6 are over, see heading, see L&A, we'll continue with our own English sentences touching on all the Ablative uses in variouis challenges but be careful that your own challenge ONLY touches on those 6! This is more fraught with danger than you may realize!! hahahah
I'll go first, page 229, "With Ablatives"
1. Say it with flowers : what Ablative is that and does it take a Latin preposition, and if so, what is it? _____________ _______________
GeneJ
February 22, 2007 - 06:25 am
1. Say it with flowers : what Ablative is that and does it take a Latin preposition, and if so, what is it? _____________ _______________
I'll start it off, right or wrong.
Ablative of Means ------ no preposition
Next: He walked with her.
What Ablative is that and does it take a Preposition, and if so, what is it?.
Ginny
February 22, 2007 - 06:58 am
Ok the blue pencil has flashed around and I've not actually made many corrections even tho a lot of the versions were different. I think each person does have the gist of the translation, well done!
On the Ablatives, Gene's stopped me cold, I was thinking Manner for say it with flowers and then I remembered the old test: if you can substitute a word ending in LY for what's there, it's Manner, if not it's MEANS.
So we can't say "say it flowerly" and Gene is absolutely correct, this will be a very useful exercise today in class!
The incident in our text here occurred in 404 AD during the reign of the Emperor Honorius. Telemachus was not the son of Odysseus in this instance but a Christian monk. This incident is also taken from the work of the Venerable Bede (673-735 A.D.)
Through the 5th century A.D. the Colosseum was well maintained. The earthquake of 847 caused some damage not to mention the damage done from people treating it as a quarry, which continued to weaken it up until the 18th Century AD. Since then restoration has kept it at a status quo.
GeneJ
February 22, 2007 - 07:43 am
Just for the record. --- I initially picked another Ablative, but after reviewing the paragraphs in the the book I changed it in an Edit. A common practice of mine. So, I'm not so smart.
Gene
formerfarmer
February 22, 2007 - 07:52 am
He walkes with her-ablative of accompaniment takes a preposition
next: My uncle farms with a mule.
What Ablative is that and does it take a Preposition, and if so, what is it?.
fdobbs
February 22, 2007 - 08:25 am
I think it's ablative of manner as it answers the question "how"
Yes with a mule does tell how but you can't apply our brand new rule and use an adverb ending in LY to it for Manner so this is Means, the means by which he plows is not by tractor, not by horse but by MEANS of a mule so this is Means, no prep. It's a good thing we're doing these because when you first look at them, they are almost impossible to tell apart, apply the LY rule. YOu can't say muley so it's Means. I hope that rule will not come a cropper, let's find out today!
"with a mule" and it will use "cum".
Next: No.3
fdobbs
February 22, 2007 - 08:40 am
Thanks Ginny, I just printed that out to keep along side my other
notes. Fran
GeneJ
February 22, 2007 - 08:47 am
Next: With great sorrow he departed.
What Ablative is that and does it take a Preposition, and if so, what is it?.
(Fran, I took the liberty. Gene)
formerfarmer
February 22, 2007 - 09:02 am
Next: With great sorrow he departed.
ablative of manner-takes prep. except when used with an adjective.
next:I spent the evening with friends
GeneJ
February 22, 2007 - 09:10 am
What Ablative is that and does it take a Preposition, and if so, what is it?.
Which one, the Ablative of Manner? Cum except with a qualifying adjective
If a preposition is required, what is it? It would be good to know.
cook1
February 22, 2007 - 09:35 am
I spent the evening with friends
Abl. of accompaniment...uses "with" showing association.
Next: The soloist sang with deep feeling.
marni0308
February 22, 2007 - 10:27 am
The soloist sang with deep feeling.
Ablative of manner - yes, uses a preposition cum
next: We shall talk over matters with him.
What Ablative is that and does it take a Preposition, and if so, what is it?.
JIW
February 22, 2007 - 10:30 am
The soloist sang with deep feeling.
Ablative of manner. May be used with preposition cum; however, if an adjective is used (as in this example), the cum may be omitted.
Next: We eat food with forks and spoons.
marni0308
February 22, 2007 - 10:37 am
I found in my notes one additional type of Ablative that Ginny told us about - Ablative of Attendant Circumstance. Hmmmm. I can't think of an example.
cook1
February 22, 2007 - 10:39 am
We shall talk over matters with him.
What Ablative is that and does it take a Preposition, and if so, what is it?.
Ablative of accompaniment...yes it takes a preposition...with.
Next: All supported the cause with enthusiasm and money.
marni0308
February 22, 2007 - 10:56 am
All supported the cause with enthusiasm and money.
Hmmmm.. I think there are 2 different kinds of ablatives here.
with enthusiasm - Ablative of manner (you could substitute "enthusiastically")- use cum
with money - Ablative of means - no preposition
Next: They arrived with friends.
GeneJ
February 22, 2007 - 12:22 pm
Next: They arrived with friends
What Ablative is that and does it take a Preposition, and if so, what is it?.
It is Ablative of accompaniment takes the preposition cum
Next: He went into the water. (Mind, it might not be ablative. But that would just be my ignorance.)
cook1
February 22, 2007 - 12:34 pm
He went into the water.
Ablative of place to which... it take a Preposition, into.
Next: With caution, he opened the door.
Gene is right, INTO takes the Accusative as it shows motion, IN the water means you're drowning.
EllH
February 22, 2007 - 12:42 pm
Gene, I'm not sure either,but I think into is in used with accusative.
He is in the water. Abl of place where -used with prep.
She washed the dishes by hand. -What ablative? Preposition needed?
cook1
February 22, 2007 - 02:31 pm
She washed the dishes by hand.
Ablative of agent...takes a Preposition, a/ab.
Next: They went by airplane. What ablative? Preposition needed?
Ken1
February 22, 2007 - 08:34 pm
They went by airplane. What ablative? Preposition needed?
Ablative of means and does not take a preposition.
He left with great sorrow.
What ablative and does it need a preposition.
Maryemm
February 23, 2007 - 04:20 am
Freaky Friday!!! Good morning, Everyone,
Today is the
23rd of February and, to the Romans, this day known as
Terminalia, marked the end of the ancient Roman year.
TERMINALIA February 24th : Regifugium In the Roman religion, Regifugium or Fugalia was an annual observance that took place every February 24. In Latin, the name of the observance transparently means "flight of the king."
QUOTE: What exactly this observance was occasioned by is a matter of some controversy. According to Varro and Ovid, this was a festival commemorating the flight of the last king of Rome, Tarquinius Superbus, in 510 BC. Ovid's Fasti contains the longest surviving account of the observance. He begins:
Nunc mihi dicenda est regis fuga. Traxit ab illa
sextus ab extremo nomina mense dies.
Ultima Tarquinius Romanζ gentis habebat
regna, vir iniustus, fortis ad arma tamen.
(Now I must tell of the flight of the King, six days from the end of the month. The last of the Tarquins possessed the Roman nation, an unjust man, but nevertheless strong in war.)
Plutarch disagrees; he holds that since the Rex Sacrorum, substitute for the former king of Rome in various religious rituals, held no civic or military role, but nevertheless was bound to offer a public sacrifice in the Comitia on this date, the "flight of the king" was the swift exit the proxy king was required to make from that place of public business.UNQUOTE
REGIFUGIUM REGIFUGIUM ........................ Shrove Tuesday / Pancake Day This year 2007 Shrove Tuesday/Pancake Day was on 20 th of February
The name Shrove comes from the old word "shrive" which means to confess. On Shrove Tuesday, in the Middle Ages, people used to confess their sins so that they were forgiven before the season of Lent began.
The last three days before the beginning of Lent are known as Shrovetide. The old names for these days were:
Quinquagesima Sunday - Shrove Sunday
The fiftieth day before Easter
Collop Monday - Shrove Monday
Named after the traditional dish of the day: collops of bacon served with eggs. In addition to providing little meat, the collops were also the source of the fat for the following day's pancakes.
Shrove Tuesday was traditionally a time for celebrations as well as penitence, because it is the last day before Lent.
Lent is a time of abstinence, of giving things up. So Shrove Tuesday is the last chance to indulge yourself, and to use up the foods that aren't allowed in Lent. Pancakes are eaten on this day because they contain fat, butter and eggs which were forbidden during Lent.
What is a pancake? A pancake is a thin, flat cake, made of batter and fried in a pan. Pancakes are ancient! There is a recipe in a cookbook by the Roman epicure Apicius. Here it is :
OVA SPONGIA EX LACTE (Pancakes with Milk) (Apic. 7,13,) Ingredients:
------------
8 eggs
600ml milk
100ml oil
a little honey
a little ground pepper
Instructions:
-------------
Mix eggs, milk and oil until you have a pancake dough. Fry in a pan
and serve topped with honey and a little pepper.I must confess I used Delia Smith's classic recipe for Pancakes and ate them the old Welsh way with butter spread over them, then sprinkled sugar, and finally a squeeze of lemon juice. Delicious!
POST SCRIPT Antonine Wall - furthest boundary of the Roman Empire - is to be UK's next nomination for World Heritage Site
See:
ANTONINE WALL ............................ and, finally, some Games contributed by
Edith Anne/Scrappy Gal./ Class 104 (My thanks, E.A.)
How well did YOU do?
Principal parts of Verbs Ludi Romani and Nostri: Matching Ludi Romani et Templa Deorum: Matching Colosseum, Verus Romanus, Publius Marco Sal: Hangman
Ginny
February 23, 2007 - 05:40 am
MARY!! What an absolutely wonderful Freaky Friday offering! Thank you SO much for addiing to much to our classes!! And great games from our GameMeister Edith Anne!
A bright good morning to you all, great work here, the blue pencil has nothing to say! hahahaa We do need to get all our Ablative ducks in a row because the Ablative is one of the largest cases and there is a GIANT use on the horizon so let's be sure we know them like our right hand!
I think this is one of the most useful things we have done, let's keep on using this through the weekend: you're doing splendidly.
I'll be back late Sunday night with news of, assuming I live, the newest Pompeii EXhibit, hope to bring you something from it, stay tuned!
GeneJ
February 23, 2007 - 06:58 am
He left with great sorrow.
What ablative and does it need a preposition.
I would take this to be ablative of manner which takes a preposition unless there is an adjective. Great is the adjective, so there is no preposition.
Next: He is sailing on the water.
What ablative and does it need a preposition, if so what preposition?
formerfarmer
February 23, 2007 - 07:29 am
Next: He is sailing on the water.
What ablative and does it need a preposition, if so what preposition?
place where- preposition= in
next: she is skating wth her partner.
EllH
February 23, 2007 - 09:04 am
She is skating with her partner.
Ablative of accompainment uses cum as prep.
The cat finally came down from the tree. What ablative? Preposition needed? If so, what preposition
cook1
February 23, 2007 - 09:36 am
The cat finally came down from the tree.
Ablative of place, from which...yes, it takes a preposition, such as, e/ex/de.
Next: We will pick the figs by hand.
cook1
February 23, 2007 - 09:48 am
Above is a picture of a "Doocot" that an e-mail acquaintance, who lives in Scotland, sent to my cousin. Below is the information that was sent with the picture.
Views of East Linton
It is a doocot, a home for pigeons. There are a number around in Scotland, all different shapes. They were erected on the boundary of an estate so that the pigeons would enjoy the grain in the neighbours fields! It offered a source of fresh meat in winter. This one was in the form of a lectern and you can see the nesting boxes. It is from the 16th century and located on an estate covered in my Auchinleck research. The owner is considering its restoration.
----------------------------
Following is a link that has an interesting article about them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dovecote This article states "The Romans may have introduced dovecotes" ...although, the one above is located in Scotland.
marni0308
February 23, 2007 - 10:11 am
Interesting info today. Thank you, Maryemm and cook.
I love seeing the pancake recipe name in Latin. Here in New England, we put maple syrup on our pancakes. Maple syrup is a scrumptious topping made from condensing the sap that runs from sugar maple trees in late winter/early spring. It is an event here in my town of Windsor, Connecticut, because we have a maple sugarhouse at Northwest Park (a large town park). Every year, people can go over to the park and help make maple sugar. Then in March there's a big communal pancake breakfast and everyone puts the homemade maple syrup on the pancakes. Scroll down to see the picture of the sugarhouse.
http://www.northwestpark.org/friends_events.htm
marni0308
February 23, 2007 - 10:15 am
We will pick the figs by hand.
by hand - Ablative of means. No prep.
Next: He picked the best apple from the basket.
cook1
February 23, 2007 - 10:33 am
#855.
Isn't ablative of means used only with things and animals?
hand is considered a thing, not a person, good point.
marni0308
February 23, 2007 - 11:29 am
cook: I was thinking a hand was a thing.
formerfarmer
February 23, 2007 - 01:27 pm
Next: He picked the best apple from the basket
Would that be "ablative of place from which"? preposition ab, de, or ex
next: The test was graded by the teacher.
Maryemm
February 23, 2007 - 01:51 pm
I hope you won't mind some additional information regarding dovecots,
Cook1 I found this interesting:
Romano-British Dovecots
EllH
February 23, 2007 - 03:01 pm
the test was graded by the teacher-ablative of agent use prep. ab
We are going to New York by bus.
mouseketeer
February 23, 2007 - 03:56 pm
We are going to New York by bus.
ablative of means. no preposition
You are going to the theater with your friends.
What ablative, and with or without a preposition?
Sorry to miss so much class. I am copying out the class work today
to go over it. You have done a great job!
EllH
February 23, 2007 - 04:21 pm
with your friends-abl. of accompaniment prep.cum
I will miss Latin class with regret. What ablative? Preposition needed?
cook1
February 23, 2007 - 05:04 pm
I will miss Latin class with regret.
Ablative of manner...with a prep., with.
Next: We will walk by the grape vines. What ablative? Preposition needed?
formerfarmer
February 23, 2007 - 05:13 pm
Next: We will walk by the grape vines. What ablative? Preposition needed?
ablative of place where, takes preposition- a, ab
I cleared the sidewalk with a shovel. What ablative? Preposition needed?
cook1
February 23, 2007 - 05:25 pm
#859 Maryemm...thank you for the additional information. It was very interesting. I had never heard of a doocot/dovecove until just recently when I received the picture and was fasnatied with the idea...how clever!
EllH
February 23, 2007 - 06:42 pm
with a shovel-ablative of means-no preposition
The book we were looking for was under the bed.What ablative? Preposition needed? If so,what prep.
mouseketeer
February 24, 2007 - 06:24 am
The book we were looking for was under the bed.What ablative?
Preposition needed? If so,what prep?
I really am not sure of this, but if the phrase is under the bed, I
think if is preposition with the acc. because looking is a verb of
action as per UH #243. Please advise!!! under the bed is Place Where
We arrived in Jamaica by ship.
GeneJ
February 24, 2007 - 06:38 am
Reference Posting #867
I don't have the answer, but I enter here because I've been searching last night and this morning for certain prepositional uses and have had problems finding it in UHH. I seem to recall reading somewhere in the book about the use of sub and meanings up to or under. I can't be more specific because I needed the written reference to refresh my memory. I seem to remember the phrase "seated under the wall." Can anyone steer me to the spot?
I did find a sub listing in para 242 and 243, but I recollect somehow additional information. Any help will be appreciated.
Gene
I am not sure we have taken up sub yet but at any rate page 450 talks about it as meaning under or close to with verbs of motion: Accusative and verbs of rest or position: Ablative, if that's any help
EllH
February 24, 2007 - 08:31 am
Nancy and Gene, My thought in writing sentence was ablative place where using prep. sub . The verb would be was-The book (we were looking for) was under the bed.We will have to wait for Ginny, because I really don't know for sure.
mouseketeer
February 24, 2007 - 09:22 am
Nancy and Gene, My thought in writing sentence was ablative place where using prep. sub . The verb would be was-The book (we were looking for) was under the bed.We will have to wait for Ginny, because I really don't know for sure.
EllH, My thought on the sentence construction is this: The book
for which we were looking was under the bed. In this grammatical
construction, you would be absolutely correct in using sub with
the ablative. I think I was confused before because I didn't see
the antecedent "book" and the relative clause "for which we were
were looking". Now with the main sentence "The book was under the
bed.", we do not have a verb of action.
Does this make sense?
If so, let's do next: The ship was sailing into the harbor.
Ablative or accusative with or without which preposition.
EllH
February 24, 2007 - 10:08 am
Into the harbor- Into-ad and accusative case .(I think)
The boys frolicked in the creek with glee.
JCollins
February 24, 2007 - 10:08 am
My 2 cents re/ rep "under"
sub is used with accusaive
implying motion--sub portam-
-they will come beneath the gate
sub used with ablative --stationary
book etc under the bed --
-use the ablative because book is stationary position under the bed
mouseketeer
February 24, 2007 - 06:30 pm
Marnio, Here's Ginny note that mentioned ablative of attendant
circumstance that you mentioned in #839
Ginny - 08:47am Jan 19, 2007 PT (#319 of 872)
SeniorNet Classics Project/ Books & Literature/ Culture
We've had a couple of requests in email to look more closely at a sentence. . Any time you'd like more clarification, please do ask!
Sine victoriis Hannibal Italiam in provinciam redigere non poterat.
Sine takes the Ablative and I'm going to say this is the Ablative of Attendant Circumstance, which we have not had. You could say Ablative with prepositions. Hannibal is Nominative, subject. Italiam is Accusative, Direct Object. In provinciam is Accusative, with the preposition in, meaning INTO: into a province. Redigere is the complimentary infinitive with the verb to be able: he was not able (Imperfect) to reduce (redigo) Italy into a province.
Is there any other sentence somebody would like to see parsed?
GeneJ
February 25, 2007 - 01:51 pm
Here's one I don't get. On page 132 -- the man being shot out of the catapult. Somehow I don't get the point.
Gene
This is admittedly strange. They are trying to say that WITH A MAN, depending on context, can be either Accompaniment (the one on the right) or Means. Here of course we ran slap up against the Person/ Thing rule. I'd continue to apply that rule while recognizing that UH here in their sort of indrect way is showing you another very strange use of Means, the Ablative of the Way by Which, and I think we probably don't want to do a whole lot with it. With that tiny cartoon they are saying that sometimes Means can be a person when the person (viro) is the machine by which something is done, and that opens an entire other can of words which quite frankly I have never used, you might just want to note it.
I'd stick closely to Agent/ person AB and Means/ thing/ no prep.
mouseketeer
February 25, 2007 - 06:41 pm
Gene,
My take on that picture
is that the author is using the most extreme example he could think
of, a man being used as a weapon, to illustrate the point that a
person may not be associated with the other human, but is an example
of by means of rather than accompaniment. I may get shot down again,
but that's my idea.
That's pretty good thinking, it's an extreme USE they're showing tho.
JCollins
February 26, 2007 - 04:19 am
A Human Sacrafice
Then the king declared a certain day
and prepared everything.
Ginny
February 26, 2007 - 04:42 am
Great work here and good questions, too, do they still shoot people out of cannons at circuses? What a strange thing! I'll be back later this morning with any blue pencil marks which are needed once I pick up the baby and get settled in, but a bright good morning to you all and we'll get started hearing your translations, (only one sentence at a time, please) of Perseus.
I am very pleased that we will finish Perseus this term, as it's a charming story and one of great importance to the Romans, in fact, a depiction of Perseus is the first thing I saw in the In Stabiano exhibit. As we had read his story in class, in Latin, it was quite familiar to me.
When you've finished if one of you would like to put together our group translation, I can post it in the L&A with Dr. Grote's audio commentary.
I'm back and have lots of news, etc., but will wait until we've finished up the translations for more, we have MUCH to do today!!!!
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 06:07 am
When the day came, Andromeda was led away to the shore and within
sight of all was bound to the cliff.
JCollins
February 26, 2007 - 06:10 am
. All lamented her fate and they did not restrain their tears
cook1
February 26, 2007 - 06:24 am
But suddenly while they expected the monster, Perseus hurriedly comes up: And when he seen the tears has searched her cause for pain. he asked why everyone was so sad.
JCollins
February 26, 2007 - 06:33 am
They explained the situation and pointed out the girl.(or showed him?)
formerfarmer
February 26, 2007 - 06:41 am
While this was going on, a dreadful roar was heard;
JCollins
February 26, 2007 - 06:42 am
then at the same time a horrible monster was spied far away.
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 07:00 am
This sighting inspired great terror for everyone.
formerfarmer
February 26, 2007 - 07:08 am
But the monster with great speed hurried to the shore,
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 07:14 am
and was already approaching the place where the girl was standing.
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 07:15 am
A Human Sacrifice
Then the king declared a certain day and prepared everything.
When the day came, Andromeda was led away to the shore and within
sight of all was bound to the cliff. All lamented her fate and they did not restrain their tears But suddenly while they expected the monster, Perseus hurriedly comes up: And when he seen the tears has searched her cause for pain. They explained the situation and pointed out the girl.(or showed him?) While this was going on, a dreadful roar was heard; then at the same time a horrible monster was spied far away. This sighting inspired great terror for everyone. But the monster with great speed hurried to the shore, and was already approaching the place where the girl was standing.
marni0308
February 26, 2007 - 07:24 am
Hmmmm....I missed the story again. You guys are early birds!
Thanks for the ablative info, mouseketeer!
marni0308
February 26, 2007 - 07:33 am
Who are they?__________
Quī sunt?
Next: Whose books are in the house?
marni0308
February 26, 2007 - 07:36 am
It snowed again. I have to go shovel myself out of the driveway and head to a doctor's appointment. I'll be back later.
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 07:42 am
I'm confused as to how to decline "what" in the masc. and fem.sg.
Fran, Are you asking how to say "what" as an adjective? If so,
a sentence could say "What girl is going to the store?" What is an
adjective nominative singular feminine so it would be quae puella,
see #270 "What boy..." would be qui puer
Does this make sense?
GeneJ
February 26, 2007 - 07:45 am
Nancy: re: #875
Nothing like being shot down. Thanks for your help. Let's see what the boss says.
Marni: re: # 888
Me too. I'm up, but busy with other things.
Go easy on the shovelling.
Gene
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 07:46 am
Whose books are in the house?
quorum
Next: What is the largest road?
JCollins
February 26, 2007 - 07:59 am
Next: What is the largest road?
The largest road is what-
-looks like a predicate nominative--
acting as a pronoun perhaps--road is fem.
but it is looks like we employ neuter because road is a thing
Quid?
Little confused with the chart on p-217--anyway
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 08:09 am
I think because it is the verb "to be" that the interrogative has
to be feminine, thus "quis" Ginny is going to have fun with this!!
The problem is that your logic makes sense, so who knows, but Ginny.
fdobbs
February 26, 2007 - 08:11 am
Thanks Nancy , that does make it clearer. Fran
JCollins
February 26, 2007 - 08:15 am
Nancy-- That is why I was confused--I finally went with the neuter knowing perhaps feminine was the way to go. But the chart does not seem to have the alternative "what" to"who" Although in #284 -number 2 on page 217 seems to imply that "quis" etc can be used. Perhaps if I consult another text later I will be enlightened.
Ginny
February 26, 2007 - 09:38 am
Great translation and great start, the blue pen may make a nip or tuck here.
Essentially it's this way:
Eliminate it:
is it a question?
Is there a word in the question that's being modified by a prounoun like "who which what", or not?
If it's a question you must use the interrogative pronouns.
If there is no word being modified like which girl or which man or what town, you use some form of the shortened Quis Quid for the singular and qui quae quod (the old relative pronoun) for the plural?
That's it?
EX What books have you lost? Adjective, modifying books, then you'd need qui liber. We'd say which books, and we'd try to make WHAT or WHAT a neuter but liber is masculine, you can't say WHO book, and there's no other way to do it.
Let's confine ourselves ONLY to the Interrogative pronoun not the adjective today.
You only have two choices: the regular plural for the Relative pronoun OR the "new" Quis Quid. Try the Bennett or the Wheelock in the heading (links) for more help.
For now, ONLY pronouns, I'll go next:
'
Whose book did you see in the road?______________
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 09:43 am
Jack,
While I was driving, I thought about the sentence "What is the
longest road?" It is really implied that " What road is the longest?
in which case the "what" is an adjective, nominative, singular,
feminine. Then the Latin would be "quae". How does that sound?
Let's work on another one: Whose son went to battle?
Ginny
February 26, 2007 - 09:43 am
I just changed the above to hopefully make more sense. They did not have the question mark? Therefore if they wished to show it was a question they had to use some form of the Inteerogative pronoun or adjective.
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 09:44 am
Ginny,
You must have popped in while I was posting!!
Ginny
February 26, 2007 - 09:49 am
Yes I think the reasoning here makes sense, let's try to shy away from the Predicate Nominatives, they are headaches in this.
Let's stick to simple questions, such as who are you what did he do, whose book is in the road, for whom is the present, by whom was it written, stuff like that. Let's start simple so when we hit the adhectives we can tell the difference. A pronoun (pro= taking the place of) noun stands alone.
This is going to be vital some time down the road!
Hella
February 26, 2007 - 10:06 am
Whose son went to battle? cuius filius
next: by whom was this made?
JCollins
February 26, 2007 - 10:14 am
Thanks Ginny and Nancy--I agree predicate nominatives are a headache--guess we are going to stick with the interrogative today and leave the adjective for another day.
marni0308
February 26, 2007 - 11:34 am
by whom was this made?
by whom = quō
Next: Whom did you mean?
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 11:37 am
by whom was this made?
quo ablative f or m assuming singular
Next To whom was the award given?
marni0308
February 26, 2007 - 11:37 am
Ginny: The link doesn't seem to work for the Perseus explanation.
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 11:39 am
Whom did you mean?
quem
Since we posted at the same time, Marnio, I'll repeat my next one.
Next To whom was the award given?
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 11:42 am
Ginny, Ditto with Marnio #907, The computer said the page couldn't
be displayed.
marni0308
February 26, 2007 - 12:20 pm
Mouseketeer: I'm laughing over the "marnio" - You can call me Marni. The "o" is the number zero. I had to add numbers to my name because my name had already been assigned to someone else.
GAD, these interrogative and relative pronouns/adjectives are hard!!!! There are so many of them!!!!
cook1
February 26, 2007 - 12:24 pm
To whom was the award given?
cui
Next: Whose pencils are those?
mouseketeer
February 26, 2007 - 12:57 pm
Whose pencils are those?
cuius
Next: Whom do we trust in this matter?
formerfarmer
February 26, 2007 - 01:05 pm
Next: Whom do we trust in this matter?
quem
next: to whom are you writing
marni0308
February 26, 2007 - 01:05 pm
Whom do we trust in this matter?
quem
Next: Of what are you speaking?
marni0308
February 26, 2007 - 01:07 pm
I'm confused about the Interrogative Adjectives in our text. It says they are declined like the Relative Pronouns. Does that mean they are the same? Are all the Interrogative Adjectives exactly the same words as those on the Relative Pronoun chart?
Yes it's exactly the same but this time it's paired with a noun in the same case.
Dr. Grote's tapes are only available on Real Audio, they both play for me, I'll double check, thanks for the head's up!
cook1
February 26, 2007 - 01:14 pm
to whom are you writing?
cui
I'll carry Marni #915 question over...
Next: Of what are you speaking?
Ginny
February 26, 2007 - 02:09 pm
OK finally thru, have answered the issue of the Perseus audio but will try again and report back.
Essentially great work here, you've done a super job.
Pronoun or adjective? Simple! One is modifying another noun, the Pronoun stands alone. That's IT?
The work with the Ablatives was superior, congratulations! If you don't see any blue you are correct, so look way way back.
Thank you Cook and Marni and Maryemm for those wonderful links and information. One thing I missed coming to SC was the sugar maples so I planted the driveway in them, they are gorgeous!
Now let me go fix Perseus!
Ginny
February 26, 2007 - 02:13 pm
Dr. Grote's audio tape is working fine, I am listening to him as I type. In order to hear any of his tapes, it's necessary to download (it's free) Real Audio because the sophisticated equipment he records on requires Real Audio to be used.
Ken1
February 26, 2007 - 08:58 pm
Of what are you speaking?
cuius - genitive nueter
Next By whom was she heard?
Ginny
February 27, 2007 - 04:32 am
Good work, Ken!
A bright good morning to you all. I've decided to use the rest of the year as sort of a....test program in working on a different approach and I will need to hear from you during Spring Break how it's going, we're constantly changing to try to meet the needs of everybody, especially the upper classes.
In order for this new way of doing things to work it will be imperative that you read and benefit from the class work daily. You should read the blue comments not only in your own post but in the posts of others, hit Printer Friendly and study them.
Because I will be giving LESS homework but am still desirous of doing the work in the book, we'll have to master the art of doing the UH work in class, so this will be quite a challenge, but we're up to it.
For today we need to bide a wee on these Interrogatives, the Pronouns and the Adjectives, till we see the light, they are a lot easier than they appear.
See L&A and I'll go first here today. Our object in class is to be able, at the end of today, to identify an Interrogative (there's a question mark at the end of the sentence) Pronoun (stands alone) or Adjective (is modifying something else: which book, what temple etc.) and THEN give the right Latin form.
I'll go first:
Which boys are in the street?
Identify: is this a Interrogative Pronoun or an Interrogative Adjective and what's the ONE Latin word we need here? _____________________
JCollins
February 27, 2007 - 05:16 am
Which boys are in the street?
adjective------------------qui
Who is in the barn?
cook1
February 27, 2007 - 06:39 am
Who is in the barn?
interrogative pronoun...quis
Next: What vegetables do we need?
formerfarmer
February 27, 2007 - 06:47 am
what vegetables do we need?
adjective- quae
next: whose car shall we use?
mouseketeer
February 27, 2007 - 07:07 am
next: whose car shall we use?
pronoun, genitive n s cuius
Next; What is the name os the forest?
fdobbs
February 27, 2007 - 08:19 am
quae silva--quae-adj.
next:the girl to whom he spoke was silent.
JCollins
February 27, 2007 - 08:23 am
next:the girl to whom he spoke was silent.
cui
pronoun
What movie is it?
fdobbs
February 27, 2007 - 08:29 am
quid-adj.
next: by whom was she heard?
cook1
February 27, 2007 - 08:46 am
by whom was she heard?
qua - abl., f., sg. I thought this was right the first time thru too. I think however it's an interrogative (there is a question mark at the end of the sentence) and it's a pronoun (there is no other noun for it to modify) so it only can be quo as that's the only choice with quis quid.
Next: Which book shall we use?
formerfarmer
February 27, 2007 - 09:05 am
Which book shall we use?
adj.-quem
next: to whom are you speaking?
cook1
February 27, 2007 - 09:31 am
To whom are you speaking?
Cui
Next: What are the rules?
marni0308
February 27, 2007 - 11:14 am
I'm still muddling through these relative and interrogative pronouns and adjectives and I'm trying to figure out each challenge as I go along.
I have questions.
In post #928 above, I was thinking that "by whom was she heard?" was an interrogative pronoun, abl., f., sg., which I thought was quO.
quo is right, I myself missed it the first time, with quis quid you only have quo to choose from, good job.
In post #929 above, I was thinking that "Which book shall we use?" was an interrogative adjective, acc., n., sg, which I thought was quod. On this one, however, book is masculine. This is an adjective but book is accusative masculine singular: quem.
cook1
February 27, 2007 - 11:15 am
#930 I didn't identify what it was...
Interrogative, pronoun
marni0308
February 27, 2007 - 11:16 am
What are the rules?
interrogative pronoun, nom., pl., nuet. = quae
Next: To whom did you give the blanket? These predicate nominatives are really the pits, let's not do it. If I were doing it I'd say which rules are they? and that would make it quae.
JCollins
February 27, 2007 - 12:12 pm
Next: To whom did you give the blanket?
cui---------pronoun----dative
What shoes shall I buy?
mouseketeer
February 27, 2007 - 12:34 pm
Marni,
re your post:
In post #928 above, I was thinking that "by whom was she heard?" was an interrogative pronoun, abl., f., sg., which I thought was quO.
In post #929 above, I was thinking that "Which book shall we use?" was an interrogative adjective, acc., n., sg, which I thought was quod. but book is masculine
I think that you are correct.
What shoes shall I buy?
adjective plural neuter: quae
Next: Of whom do you speak?
fdobbs
February 27, 2007 - 01:14 pm
cuius--of whom
next:To which girl did you give the flower?
marni0308
February 27, 2007 - 01:17 pm
Thanks for your help, Ginny and Mouseketeer!
Of whom do you speak?
Interrogative pronoun. Hmmmmm. I'm thinking it's ablative because "of whom" is sort of like "about whom".... quO ah but OF, little tiny OF always takes the Genitive! You are right, however, in that in Latin it probably would be about whom, so you're both right.
Next: Whom did you leave your husband for?
Uh, oh, this one may not be fair because I have a preposition at the end of the sentence.
marni0308
February 27, 2007 - 01:20 pm
Fran: We posted at the same time and have different answers. I don't know if mine is correct.
mouseketeer
February 27, 2007 - 02:21 pm
For whom did you leave your husband?
interrogative pronoun dative: cui
By which road did you travel?
cook1
February 27, 2007 - 02:44 pm
By which road did you travel?
Interrogative adjective - abl., Sg. - neuter - quo
Next: Who started the war?
formerfarmer
February 27, 2007 - 03:00 pm
Who started the war?
pronoun-quis
next: what flavor will you have?
mouseketeer
February 27, 2007 - 03:19 pm
next: what flavor will you have?
interrogative pronoun accusative singular neuter quo quod? Adjective, Accusative neuter singular?
Which one of the boys is an athlete?
Ginny
February 27, 2007 - 05:18 pm
Looks like everybody is quickly catching on to this, it's not easy at first but I think things here are looking good! Any questions?
Ken1
February 27, 2007 - 08:07 pm
Which one of the boys is an athlete?
Adjective - Nominative Singular Masuline - quī
Next: Who let the dogs out?
Ginny
February 28, 2007 - 05:03 am
Definitely catching on!!
Well a bright good morning to you all! I'm excited about our progress here, the homework, now being returned, looks good, I think we're easing on into this new work, already I can see a great improvement over the Pronoun or the Adjective issue, and we'll work a bit more today on them.
See L&A and see heading, let's keep it as simple as we possibly can so we can really nail these Interrogatives!
I've just found by pure chance a wonderful Dentatus painting, in the Rembrandt's Eyes discussion and am very excited, you don't see them every day, so will be bringing that to us in the morning. What fun!
OH we're at the end of another unit, almost, no new grammar in the next chapter at ALL, nothing but the principal Parts of the 3rd Conjugation, and the 3rd IO! OH BOY!
This is lovely because ULYSSES is right around the bend and so is our Spring Break, and we're right on target if not a little ahead, we may have to slow down.
So let's have fun today with our two new vocabulary words and our Interrogatives. I'll go first (see heading, see L&A):
Who had been warned?__________ ________________
mouseketeer
February 28, 2007 - 05:55 am
Who had been warned?__________ ________________
interrogative pronoun nominative singular quis
Quis monitus erat?
Next: Which horses were driven together?
formerfarmer
February 28, 2007 - 06:39 am
Which horses were driven together?
adjective, nom. pl.
Qui equi cogebantur
formerfarmer
February 28, 2007 - 07:31 am
forgot a challenge
who collected the money
JCollins
February 28, 2007 - 08:25 am
who collected the money
quis------------------pronoun
Next
Which money was collected?
fdobbs
February 28, 2007 - 08:28 am
Quis pecuniam coegit? When the Interrogative is an Adjective it takes the form of qui quae quod instead of quis/ quid, so this is quae pecunia cogebatur
Next:Which boys were warned/
cook1
February 28, 2007 - 08:57 am
Which boys were warned?
qui pueri monebantur?
Next: Who collects the tools on the ground?
fdobbs
February 28, 2007 - 09:41 am
I think "which money" should be in the nom.Post950
Quae pecunia? I thought things were becoming clearer, but now I'm not so sure. Fran yes this is correct!
marni0308
February 28, 2007 - 10:19 am
Fran: I was thinking the same thing. Also, I was thinking that "was collected" in post #950 and "were warned" in post #951 were verbs in the Passive, not Active.??
yes was collected and were warned are both passive. I am thinking one of our problems here is we're focusing on too many different issues, I can see why these are difficult, sorry.
Either the pronoun/ adjective issue in the Interrogative OR the verb, this one is my fault.
marni0308
February 28, 2007 - 10:29 am
Who collects the tools on the ground?
Int. Pronoun - Quis cōegit?
Next: He had been reminded by whom?
cook1
February 28, 2007 - 10:44 am
#953 of 954)
Fran: I was thinking the same thing. Also, I was thinking that "was collected" in post #950 and "were warned" in post #951 were verbs in the Passive, not Active.??
In regards to post #950 I believe you are right and hopefully I've corredted it below...thanks.
Which boys were warned?
qui pueri monebantur e?
JCollins
February 28, 2007 - 11:31 am
He had been reminded by whom?
Quo monitus est ?
Who is compelled?
marni0308
February 28, 2007 - 11:46 am
Who is compelled?
QuI cOgitur?
Next: He had warned whom?
JCollins
February 28, 2007 - 12:02 pm
Next: He had warned whom?
Quem monuerat?
Next--Who has been warned?
cook1
February 28, 2007 - 12:59 pm
Who has been warned?
( shaky on this one.)
quis monitus est
Next: Who compelled the students to leave?
formerfarmer
February 28, 2007 - 02:45 pm
Who compelled the students to leave?
pronoun,
Quis discipuli discipulos coegerunt quis is singular: coegit discedere?
next: which boy collects the money?
mouseketeer
February 28, 2007 - 02:52 pm
Who compelled the students to leave?
Quis discipulos excedere coegit?
Next: What do you collect?
mouseketeer
February 28, 2007 - 02:56 pm
Gene, Guess we interpreted that sentence differently!!!
Which boy collects the money?
interrogative adjective
Qui puer pecuniam cogit?
Next: answer to #961
JIW
February 28, 2007 - 02:59 pm
Who compelled the students to leave?
Interrogative pronoun: Quis discipulos discedere coegit? (This is singular. Could also be plural: Qui...coegerunt?) yes
Next: From whom did you collect the money?
JIW
February 28, 2007 - 03:08 pm
I see others got in before I did; so I will take the challenge in #961.
What do you collect?
Interrogative adjective: Quod (or quae, pl.) what here is a pronoun, so you need quis, quid or in the plural quae as you've said cogis (or cogitis, pl)?
My challenge in #963 stands.
marni0308
February 28, 2007 - 03:15 pm
From whom did you collect the money?
Inter. pronoun - I think abl. s. - QuO pecuniam coEgisti?
Next: Whom will you have warned?
mouseketeer
February 28, 2007 - 03:30 pm
Whom will you have warned?
interrogative accusative singular
Quem eris monitus?
Next: To whom will the award be given?
JIW
February 28, 2007 - 04:23 pm
To whom will the award be given?
Interrogative pronoun, dative: Cui praemium dabitur ?
Next: Whom shall we remind?
Ken1
February 28, 2007 - 09:26 pm
Whom shall we remind?
Quem monēbimus?
By whom has he been reminded?
Ginny
March 1, 2007 - 06:15 am
Good work here. I looked in last night and saw no major issues, so I think we're doing these splendidly.
A bright, actually quite threatening good morning to you, we're to have some of the severe storms today crossing the country and I hope to stay on as long as I can. TOMORROW which will be totally sunny will be our Question Day although you can, of course, ask any question you'd like in email at any time.
So far I am hearing that the new M/W part of the schedule is working especially well, gives people time to absorb the new grammar etc.., and catch up before moving on, now we'll see how the end of the week works, I fear for Thursdays and Fridays so we'll really play this by ear.
The class work looks quite superior and I hope again if I can stay on, to come back thru with the blue pencil today and return all the homework which I have been reading as it comes in to try to catch errors before they fester, but it looks superior, too! I think if I disconnect the modem and just work here on the homework I can connect it and send all the work back at one time without too much damage, we'll see.
So I feel really good about our position today. One nice thing is that I am seeing in the homework a couple of issues that we can now move to address in the class, and in future work, so I am thinking we may have found our niche! I hope so anyway, the next few days will really tell the tale.
My first job today will be to (1) be sure you have your Thursday-weekend homework assignment (2) then the class work up and started, (3) then the blue pen corrections in the class and (4) finally the homework returned as the storms permit. It's a good thing all our Latin classes are full of self starters, that's an attribute of all super Latin students and Classicists everywhere and it will stand you in good stead!
I also hope (5) to report finally on the new Exhibit in Mobile, which I was much taken with for several reasons, but that will come last.
See L&A, I think our review here has gone splendidly and today we'll take off an yet another aspect of the Unit Review.
I'll go first: it had been folded___________ _______ (WATCH that "it!")
Hella
March 1, 2007 - 07:58 am
It had been folded - plicatum est
next: he has known
cook1
March 1, 2007 - 08:16 am
Dear Ginny...Do you want us to go on with our assignment for Monday with Spring break starting?
Our Spring Break for my classes will be the week of March 5-9, with the weekends before and after which will make it March 3-11, so we need to get well set up before then.
cook1
March 1, 2007 - 08:32 am
he has known.
notus est This is passive: novit
Next: The fan is folded.
fdobbs
March 1, 2007 - 08:33 am
novit: he has known
next:It has been placed
Ginny
March 1, 2007 - 08:49 am
SHRIEK!! Is MONDAY March 5?? OH NO!! NOoooooooooo not so soon?
NO?
OH gosh, well then no, we'll be off, you'll have to save that for the next Monday, shriek!!
I shall shriek more about this tomorrow!! NO NO NOOoooooooooooooooooo
marni0308
March 1, 2007 - 11:30 am
It has been placed.
Positus est. positUM est for "it"
Next: He had desired the house.
cook1
March 1, 2007 - 11:47 am
He had desired the house.
cupitus est casam. cupiverat
Next: The fans had been folded.
Ginny
March 1, 2007 - 01:21 pm
Ok I've gone back quite a ways now and I really have to say you outdid yourselves yesterday, that was HARD and yet you went right through it, I am not sure I would have done as well. I am not sure how we ended up focusing on TWO different things at once, but you sailed right thru it, I can't WAIT to see how you do on the NLE!!
Today we're just working with verbs and so you don't need to do anything but concentrate or translate verbs so cooks might read they (feminine) had been folded since we don't know the gender of fan.
I am very impressed with you all, no joke! Well done!
cook1
March 1, 2007 - 03:24 pm
They had been folded.
plicata erant
Next: Who has been warned?
JIW
March 1, 2007 - 03:50 pm
Who has been warned?
Quis monitus est?
Next: Fold!
fdobbs
March 1, 2007 - 05:10 pm
Fold: plica---plicate
next: we shall have written
JCollins
March 1, 2007 - 07:14 pm
next: we shall have written
scripserimus
next
they will have learned
Ken1
March 1, 2007 - 08:54 pm
they will have learned
cognōvērant cognoverunt
Next: it will have been folded
Hella
March 2, 2007 - 03:11 am
it will have been folded plicatum erit
Next: they had been compelled
Maryemm
March 2, 2007 - 05:15 am
Freaky Friday!!! Good morning, Everyone,
February 27th The Equirria was a festival of horse-racing in honor of Mars. It was held in the Campus Martius at Rome, or if the Tiber River flooded it, on the Caelian Hill. One festival was held on February 27; the other, on March 14.
This day had a religious and military significance, and rites were performed involving purification of the army. This day was sacred to Mars, as was the whole month of February.
According to Lesley Adkins and Roy A. Adkins in their Handbook to Life in Ancient Rome: "Chariot racing was the oldest and most popular entertainment in the Roman world, dating back to at least the monarchy and in legend to the founding of Rome itself .... Chariot racing was very expensive and was run for profit as a highly organized business. There were four racing factions in Rome, the blues, greens, whites and reds, which were the colors worn by the charioteers. Successful charioteers became rich and famous, and portrayals of them in sculpture, mosaic, and molded glassware have survived, sometimes with their names. There was great rivalry among the factions, sometimes leading to violence among their supporters, but the greens and blues were usually the favorites."
On this day the Romans walked the city bounds in solemn procession and then gave sacrifice, followed by a public feast.
................. The Kalends of March - The Matronalia The Romans celebrated March 1st as their new Year's day as well as marking the beginning of Spring. Juno was the goddess favoured on the first day of the year and throughout and so the day was known as the Matronalia. . Juno, wife of jupiter, mother of Mars, embodied all motherly virtues and women were honoured on this day.
Husbands offered prayers for their wives and gave them presents. Daughters also gave presents to their own mothers. Interestingly enough, slaves got the day off on the Matronalia, and Roman wives prepared a feast for them and served it to them on this day.
.................. March 1st is a special day for all Welsh people whether in their homeland or all over the world. It is the day when we celebrate our Saint, David, and in Welsh the day is known as "Dydd Gwyl Dewi Sant".
ALL OVER THE WORLD This year 2007, American President George Bush has sent a message of goodwill to the nation to mark St David's Day. In his message he states:
"Our own democracy is indebted to the 11 US presidents who proudly claimed Welsh heritage, as did 16 American patriots who signed the Declaration of Independence." MESSAGE FROM PRESIDENT BUSH .............. The Welsh Flag and its links with the Romans QUOTE: The Welsh flag has two equal horizontal stripes, white above green, and a large red dragon passant. The dragon standard was perhaps first seen in Britain in the shape of the "draco" a standard carried by the cohorts of the Roman legion. The Romans appear to have been inspired by the dragon standard carried by their Dacian and Parthian enemies and had adopted this device by the third century. Carl Lofmark argues that the dragon of the cohort was more familiar to the British than was the eagle standard of the legions. As Roman legions withdrew at the end of the fourth century and the British were left alone to face Saxon attacks,the dragon would have been a natural symbol for those who wished to preserve their Romanised way of life against the barbarian invader. UNQUOTE
See: DATA WALES
More details at:The DRACO
........................................ March 2nd .
This was the second day of the Festival of Mars. The daily spectacle of the priests of Mars carrying shields, leaping and dancing through the streets of Rome would continue until March 24th. Legal actions were permitted.
............................ REVISION GAMES FROM EDITH ANNE Verbs for Units I & II, UH I. Imperatives for Units I & II, UH I. Thank you
Edith Anne ..................... ...and finally!
Spring Break: March 3-11 Just a reminder that the
Classics Lounge will be
OPEN during this Break. Do, please, drop in and post something, even if it's only a quick "Hello"! You may enter as a stranger, but I know you will leave as a friend.
Follow me! Classics Lounge
Ginny
March 2, 2007 - 06:33 am
Good work here, it looks like we're really getting accustomed to the new verbs and Mary what wonderful Freaky Friday things you have brought, I love the waving flag!!! We will enjoy reading up on each of these things during the next week, I have wanted to do something with the dates, and there you are, super~! I say next week because..... because...oh boy I am SO not ready but....Ready or not, here it comes!!!
School's OUT for Spring Break!!
See you on the 12th!!
Have a wonderful vacation! Smell the flowers, chant your Latin, and sip lemonade under the palm trees!
Seriously, my little friend in the zoo in Rome above and I have the same opinion about our Spring Break this time hahahaha: too SOON, but this is a great time for you to get some rest, and catch up or just smell the roses. When we come back wonders await us and only a month and a half before the end of term so we'll really hit the ground running March 12th.
The classrooms will remain open, and I hope you have a lovely time running through the flowers, we'll meet back Monday the 12th with bells on! ALL of the classes are ahead of schedule, so it's a perfect time to sit back and relax!
Ave atque vale until we meet again!
JCollins
March 2, 2007 - 07:00 am
Next: they had been compelled
coacti erant
next
we will have been warned
cook1
March 2, 2007 - 10:16 am
we will have been warned.
moniti erimus
Next: The master had been in the fields.
cook1
March 2, 2007 - 10:23 am
Ginny...thank you for the well wishes and Wishing you and my fellow classmates the same. As for myself, I have plans to paint my kitchen ceiling.
marni0308
March 2, 2007 - 11:28 am
Happy Vacation, everyone!
Thanks for the great info, Maryemm. I just sent the info about St. David's Day to my brother David.
JIW
March 2, 2007 - 11:37 am
I have to share this with you. Back on the 16th, Mary included in her Freaky Friday posting reference to the book "The Eagle of the Ninth." I found it in a local library and am now reading it. In one passage the hero, while requesting his uncle to help free the girl next door from her overly possessive aunt, says the following: "Uncle Aquila, we do need your help. I would contrive to play Perseus for myself, but at this stage nothing I could do would in the least avail to rescue Andromeda." I whooped with glee because I understood the reference, thanks to this class.
Ginny
March 9, 2007 - 10:12 am
Isn't it wonderful when you hit something you know about? I am so excited for you JIW, that's fabulous. I must admit I was a tad weak on some of the Perseus story, myself, till we started doing him in our classes, for some reason I kept confusing him with Theseus and the Minoaur, Perseus and Medea, Theseus and the Minotaur. (they really could not be more dissimilar, I don't know why I kept on confusing them.)
It's amazing also once you start reading about something, how you see it everywhere.In the very first exhibit I went to in Atlanta this year, there Perseus was, with his sword and Medea's head from the Villa San Marco in the In Stabiano Exhibit, I've got a postcard somewhere I brought you of him. Amazing.
And here is something I am sure you all never thought to see again: all homework is now returned. I started with this class, so that gives you some idea. If you are not finding the homework in your mail box please email me, don't post here please, the DAY you sent in the missing work OR resend it, I am sorry to ask but I have no unanswered papers at this moment, what a good feeling for us all! I also have a much better idea where to start but you all are, as per, fabulous.
Now on to the 101!!! I'll see you Monday with all sorts of delights!
Any requests for review next week?
Maryemm
March 10, 2007 - 07:11 am
YOU MIGHT FIND THIS USEFUL! On Sunday most of the United States switches to Daylight Saving Time. That's three weeks earlier than normal,so anything that tries to update automatically has to be "fixed" to do it correctly this year. That includes Windows.
Most people need do nothing, but it's important to know if you're most people.
See:
Do I need to do something about the coming change to daylight savings time?
JCollins
March 12, 2007 - 02:29 am
A Real (Genuine) Roman
You heard not of Denatus? have you heard or haven't you heard of Dentatus?
Good start!
GeneJ
March 12, 2007 - 05:06 am
Just couldn't resist.
Gene
Ginny
March 12, 2007 - 05:38 am
Uh oh, why do I have a feeling I have missed something? !?
Class is runnning amok? hahaah and a bright GOOD morning to all you suntanned and beach bingo revelers!! Hahaha I just know you had your Latin books out and were amazing all your friends and acquaintances and this will be a dazzling week, for sure. So long as you Beware the Ides of March, that is.
Welcome back!
Lots to do and talk about today, we'll continue with your presentation of your translation of Dentatus, which represents in its own way a milestone for us, but more on that later, and then we'll seque right into the work, but slowly. We'll ease back in. For my part here are a couple of what I think are interesting things:
On the Exhibit in Mobile thru June 2:
It's hard when you have seen 4 Exhibits to do justice to the 4th but I think there were a lot of things about the Mobile Pompeii Exhibit to commend it.
The figure above is in it. I BELIEVE that's she, it sure looks like her and I spent a LOT of time studying it, I think the guards thought I was potty. Haaha
.
Each exhibit has been different, each has had a different style. The Field Museum Exhibit, currently in Japan, coming to Birmingham Alabama is spectacular. The Exhibit, if it's still the same one which came to the Field, is big, has audio, is well laid out , two places to sit, and is spectacular, the triclinium alone which the Smithsonian added, I'd have to say was the icing on the cake. It's super. Have never seen anything like it.
The In Stabiano Exhibit was tiny but choice, quite a few pieces of art never out of Italy and rarely seen. No audio and very little else but the art stood alone. The Imperium Exhibit, while large, was marred by the officiousness of the volunteer docents, really sad, and the somewhat haughtiness of the people supposedly in charge. It did not have a good atmosphere, but it also had two new sculpture finds from off the coast of Sicily and some unusual stuff. 500 pieces, unimaginatively displayed, no signs to speak of no audio, really not nicely presented, but spread out.
The Mobile Exhibit was somewhat small but also had some choice stuff, nicely laid out, also from the Superintendent of Archaeology so it had the absolutely to die for Capasso DVD on sale which I use in my face to face classes. It's on sale in Pompeii and nowhere else in the world, except these traveling exhibits, so the Superintendent of Archaeology in Pompeii's office wrote me this) but is only otherwise in Italy: at Herculaneum, the National Museum in Naples, and, as noted, Pompeii. It is worth every penny. Have never seen anything like it in my life.
Also since the Mobile Exhibit is also from the Superintendent of Pompeii, it has not only the Capasso DVD but also the companion book so now for the first time I can bring to YOU some of what the DVD shows, and it's spectacular. I can't WAIT for you to see some of it. I have been struggling for ages to figure out how to do screen shots of it, freeze frame and now all I have to do is SCAN! Mirabile dictu!!
The Mobile Exhibit had triclinium walls but not in the shape of a triclinium, the Smithsonian/ Field/ Birmingham Exhibit if they still have them, excel in that, but in Mobile the panels lie flat on one wall, and they are very famous ones from the House of the Golden Bracelet which you don't see much. Wonderful dual pillars in marble carved with ivy all over from the House of the Vetii, wonderful stuff. One A/V presentation running constantly like the Field of a pyroclastic flow, no explanation.
The audio is very good and you really want it. But they don't identify where, for instance, the columns originated or the fresco of the triclinium, so be sure you read the informative labels, too.
In addition the Mobile Museum had made their own exhibit, you file into a room at the end at every half hour (and wait for the beginning don't let them seat you late) and a docent I guess operating what looks like an airplane cockpit shows on a huge screen great CG zoom ups and a restored Pompeii, it's quite fine, short feature, and not for sale, they did it there: that was their contribution to this traveling exhibit. I did have a question on their placement of the Theater....if any of you go, do pay close attention to where they say it is, but I need to see it again before asking and that's not going to happen (you know how it is, you see something and say huh and it's gone?) They came out afterwards and had you feel the parchment, which they had explained, etc. The excellent IMAX on archaeology in Santorini accompanies this exhibit in which the Greek archaeologist says, "the past will speak to those who listen." Loved it.
The volunteers made this exhibit sing, they seemed dazed and amazed at their good fortune in having it and at all the people coming to see it and insisted on showing you how to work the audio and cheerfully chatting up the visitors.
It's hard to judge an exhibit when you've seen 4 good ones. This one is worth the time to see as they have some things the others do not, I especially liked the explanation of the scales. If you all get to see it, do report back here what you thought was the highlight of the exhibit!
Great gift shop items and books, I bought a suitcase full and thoroughly enjoyed it.
And speaking of Exhibits here's another one opening!! A BIG one!
The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City is opening new galleries in April for Roman and Greek art, some of which has never before been seen by the public! Now we thought 500 pieces in these travelling Exhibits was spectacular, how about 6,000!!
Look:
These new galleries will present more than 6,000 works of art, some of which have not been on view in decades, and that have never before been available to the public
You all know that museums have tons of stuff in their basements because they have virtually no room to display them, now they will!
New Greek and Roman Galleries Open in April
The spectacular redesign and reinstallation of the Museum's superb collection of classical art is nearing completion. On April 20, 2007, the New Greek and Roman Galleries, which include the dramatic Leon Levy and Shelby White Court, will be unveiled, concluding a 15-year project and returning thousands of works from the Museum's permanent collection to public view.
The new galleries will house objects created between about 900 B.C. and the early fourth century A.D. Works on view will trace the evolution of Greek art in the Hellenistic period and the arts of southern Italy and Etruria, culminating in the rich and varied world of the Roman Empire. First-floor galleries will be dedicated to Hellenistic and Roman art, and the wholly redesigned mezzanine level-which overlooks the stunning new court from two sides-will include galleries for Etruscan art as well as the Greek and Roman study collection. Together, the astonishing assembly of works on display-some never before seen by the public-will bring to life the aesthetic and philosophical roots of Western civilization.
The website is fabulous:
http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=13&viewmode=0&item=55.11.5
And just LOOK at this one!
Sarcophagus, triumph of Dionysos and the Seasons, ca. A.D. 260-270;
Late Imperial, Gallienic
Roman
Phrygian marble; Overall: 34 x 85 x 36 Ό in. (86.4 x 215.9 x 92.1 cm)
Purchase, Joseph Pulitzer Bequest, 1955 (55.11.5)
Description
Wonderful descriptions and close ups:
This highly ornate and extremely well-preserved Roman marble sarcophagus came to the Metropolitan Museum from the collection of the dukes of Beaufort and was formerly displayed in their country seat, Badminton Hall in Gloucestershire, England. An inscription on the unfinished back of the sarcophagus records that it was installed there in 1733. In contrast to the rough and unsightly back, the sides and front of the sarcophagus are decorated with forty human and animal figures carved in high relief. The central figure is that of the god Dionysos seated on a panther, but he is somewhat overshadowed by four larger standing figures who represent the four Seasons (from left to right, Winter, Spring, Summer, and Fall).
The figures are unusual in that the Seasons are usually portrayed as women, but here they are shown as sturdy youths. Around these five central figures are placed other Bacchic figures and cultic objects, all carved at a smaller scale. On the rounded ends of the sarcophagus are two other groups of large figures, similarly intermingled with lesser ones. On the left end, Mother Earth is portrayed reclining on the ground; she is accompanied by a satyr and a youth carrying fruit. On the right end, a bearded male figure, probably to be identified with the personification of a river-god, reclines in front of two winged youths, perhaps representing two additional Seasons.
The sarcophagus is an exquisite example of Roman funerary art, displaying all the virtuosity of the workshop where it was carved. Although the marble is Phrygian, from central Anatolia (Turkey), the stone was probably shipped to Rome and worked there. Only a very wealthy and powerful person would have been able to commission and purchase such a sarcophagus, and it was probably made for a member of one of the old aristocratic families in Rome itself.
The subjects - the triumph of Dionysos and the Seasons - are unlikely, however, to have had any special significance for the deceased, particularly as it is clear that the design was copied from a sculptor's pattern book. Another sarcophagus, now in the Hessisches Landesmuseum in Kassel, Germany, has the same composition of Dionysos flanked by the four Seasons, although the treatment and carving of the figures is quite different.
On the Badminton sarcophagus the figures are carved in high relief and so endow the crowded scene with multiple areas of light and shade, allowing the eye to wander effortlessly from one figure to another. One must also imagine that certain details were highlighted with color and even gilding, making the whole composition a visual tour de force. Very few Roman sarcophagi of this quality have survived. Although the Badminton sarcophagus lacks its lid, the fact that it was found in the early eighteenth century and soon thereafter installed in Badminton Hall means that it has been preserved almost intact and only a few of the minor extremities are now missing.
I think we need a Field Trip to NYC!
The floor is now open so let her rip, I'll be back in a trice!
cook1
March 12, 2007 - 05:51 am
Do you not hear from Dentatus?
formerfarmer
March 12, 2007 - 05:57 am
Who was he and what did he do? you ask.
Hella
March 12, 2007 - 06:04 am
Because you did not know Dentatus nor do you remember him, I will remind you.
CubFan
March 12, 2007 - 06:24 am
Denatus was a famous Roman who defended his countryland and by various ways (manners) seized unfriendly (enemy) towns and camps.
EllH
March 12, 2007 - 06:58 am
His way of life was approved and praised by friends and enemies, for he was a good Roman.
cook1
March 12, 2007 - 07:15 am
Whenever the public duties was let go, the farmer was yet laboring in the fields.
Whenever he interrupted his public duties, he would be a farmer and would work in the fields.
EllH
March 12, 2007 - 07:45 am
The Samnites, that Dentatus compelled to move,sent much money to the famous man and announced:" The money that we have colleced is yours.
JCollins
March 12, 2007 - 07:49 am
We desire your friendship and assistance.
cook1
March 12, 2007 - 07:52 am
Then Dentatus, deeply moved, reminded them.
fdobbs
March 12, 2007 - 07:55 am
Why are you giving gold to me?
marni0308
March 12, 2007 - 08:07 am
Save your gold.
marni0308
March 12, 2007 - 08:11 am
I just found out that my next door neighbor's daughter is getting married in April in Rome in the Pantheon. Apparently, she and her fiance love Rome, visit her good friend who lives in Rome, and they just wanted to get married there where they had such wonderful times.
formerfarmer
March 12, 2007 - 08:37 am
For true Romans do not desire to hold money but them who have gold excel.
JIW
March 12, 2007 - 05:37 pm
I have just arrived and see that class ended at 7:37 this morning?!Formerfarmer: I had a different take on the last sentence.
For a true Roman does not desire to obtain money but to conquer them who have gold.
Is this translation possible?
Ginny
March 12, 2007 - 06:16 pm
SHRIEK!! What has happened to my subscriptions!?!@ Here I just finished all the homework turned in today from all three classes, and was feeling pretty chipper about it, (I do think this system is going to work perfectly) and I knew we were well on our way when I left here at the crack o dawn, and I was just thinking gee what has happened to my 103's, (I rely upon subscriptions to bring me back here)....I have not seen any new posts and SHRIEK!! You're finished!!
Jeepers you all sure are invigorated by the beach break? Hahahaha
Marni what exciting news, I do wish I could see that! Wonderful! It's also tradition for some reason that brides and grooms have their photos taken on the steps of the Capitoline? I have never been there have not been several, do your friends know of this also? I love to see weddings! Will they send you a photo for us?
First off thank you Bill and JIW for being bold enough to end it, it's still hard for our authors to make much of some of these limited vocabulary stories, but our man Dentatus could not be bought off, a pearl without price you might say and for that last one I think (and it's very tricky no wonder class ended at 7:37).
I'd say for this last one "For a true Roman does not want to obtain wealth but to overcome those who have gold. (this is one of those stories I guess you "hadda be there." to really get the gist, but he can't be bought off by mere money.
This story is the first in a long series of stories of Roman heroes which were told to the Romans for centuries. Stories of bravery, of heroism, there are hundreds of them, holding up to the children and adults alike behavior which they considered worthwhile in the Republic where most of these stories were most seen. Here is Horatius at the Bridge, Coriolanus, Tarpeia, Lefty Scaevola, Cincinnatus so beloved of George Washington, the Horatii, Cornelia and her Jewels, Fabricius, Regulus, the Fabii, Decius, Scipio, the Gracchi, Romulus, Manlius, the Claudine Forks, here the famous myths, Midas, Jason and the Golden Fleece, Hercules, Daedalus and Icarus, Baucis and Philemon, myths as cautionary tales, many of the above you'll be reading in our series, and when you do you'll enter thru the golden gates and be an actual part of history as these stories were told over and over since the Romans first recorded time.
So we've crossed a divide now, and pretty soon we'll embark on the several adventures of Odysseus (I guess you can say you've made it!) and I have just found a gorgeous old book with the most fabulous illustrations, you'll be entranced.
Now we've had a request from this class to parse. And I had pretty much decided Tuesdays would be parsing days, so we'll start out and maybe you can finish this by 7:37 tomorrow and we can move on, this new way of doing things certainly has us hopping.
Let's take the story of Dentatus again.
Each one of us to take only two words. In order.
You'll give the line (in reading Latin you always speak of the lines, that's why they are numbered) and then your two words and you'll tell everything about those two words you can, whether or not they are related to each other.
That's parsing as you know. Let's give it a try. Help each other.
The title is Verus Romanus: both Nominatives, verus is an adjective, masculine singular Nominative, Romanus is a noun, singular Nominative, meaning a Roman.
So the next two words are line 1: Audivistne de....who wants to give those a whirl? Parsing is not the most exciting thing you can do but it shows mastery and control, two great things when you're dealing with Latin, let's give them a whirl!
Ken1
March 12, 2007 - 08:28 pm
line 1: Audivistine de
audivistine - verb audivisti, second person singular perfect tense, the verb has the ne ending that introduces a question
de - preposition that uses the ablative case, means from, down from, or about.
marni0308
March 12, 2007 - 09:35 pm
Ginny: I'm so excited to hear about the tradition of wedding couples having their picture taken on the steps of the Capitoline. (Where is that?) I have to tell my neighbor. Do you know she asked me if Bob and I wanted to come to Rome for the wedding! That would be so fabulous! (We would love it so much but can't do it.) I'll ask for a picture!
However, we are going to New York in May to the Met to see the Louis Comfort Tiffany exhibit and we are definitely going to view some of the new antiquities exhibit!
---------------------------------------
I'm heading down to New London tomorrow to check on my parents. I'll be back tomorrow night. So I'll take a turn at parsing now....
---------------------------------------
de Dentato - prepositional phrase - Ken told us about the "de" which is a preposition that takes an object in the ablative case. Dentato, the object of the preposition, is a proper noun, a name, in the ablative case singular, masculine 2nd declension.
Marni
Ginny
March 13, 2007 - 03:41 am
Marni how exciting, oh I wish you could go to Rome! The steps where everybody seems to have their photo made lead up to the Capitoline Museums, a billion steps, it must be good luck or something. Your friends will know where they are. I don't know why they are doing it, but I'm sure we can find out!
Super news that you're going to the Met, reveal ALL about how it was!!!! Safe trip to your parents, hope they are well.
AND a bright good morning to you all!! The Ides of March are coming and so is Ulysses and we're at the end of another unit, see L&A. The National Latin Exam is also on the way, so today we move on!
All homework sent in as of last night at 8:45 is returned and it all looks good, I think our new way of doing this schedule MAY work out splendidly, only time will tell.
Today is Tuesday better known as Parsing Day and we'll continue our parse of the story of Dentatus. When we finish up we'll take up some Interrogative Pronoun and Adjective practice, so it's time well spent in Latin!!
Our next two words (and I hope this will actually do something ELSE for us as well, let's find out) are: Quis fuit (line 1)________
mouseketeer
March 13, 2007 - 04:33 am
line 1 Quis fuit
Quis: subject, interrogative pronoun, m. singular, nominative case
fuit: verb perfect tense, third person singular
Who was he?
Next: et quid line 1
EllH
March 13, 2007 - 07:05 am
et conjunction-quid pronoun nom
mouseketeer
March 13, 2007 - 07:12 am
fecit: verb perfect active tense third person singular
rogas: verb present active tense second person singular
EllH
March 13, 2007 - 07:19 am
quod-conjunction because
Dentatum-noun-masc. accusative sing.
formerfarmer
March 13, 2007 - 07:30 am
line 2
non -adverb
novisti -verb, 1st per. sing, perfect active
cook1
March 13, 2007 - 07:41 am
nōn Is an adverb...meaning not.
Nōvistī This is a perfect active verb, 2nd person, sg. - meaning you know new, strange.
Next: Line 2 - aut memoriā
EllH
March 13, 2007 - 07:53 am
aut- conjunction -or
memoria-noun sg, fem,.ablative -memory
cook1
March 13, 2007 - 08:05 am
Nōn adverb, modifying the verb. Meaning not.
Tenēs present active verb, 2nd. Person, sg. Meaning: You hold.
Next: Line 2 - Tē monēbo
EllH
March 13, 2007 - 08:16 am
te-pronoun acc you
monebo 2nd conj., first person sing. future tense- I will warn.
Ginny
March 13, 2007 - 12:53 pm
Good work so far, let's step it up a little bit by using groups of words which go together. When for instance I look at this next sentence I sort of mentally group the words, reading from left to right, is that the way you do it?
When you read English you do that also so when I look at Dentatus fuit Romanus clarus qui patriam defendit et variīs modīs inimica oppida castraque cepit, I actually see:
Dentatus fuit|| Romanus clarus|| qui patriam defendit|| et variīs modīs|| inimica oppida castraque|| cepit
Would you like to try doing the word groupings?
JIW
March 13, 2007 - 01:06 pm
Line 3: Dentatus fuit
Dentatus: proper name as subject; nominative
fuit: verb sum, 3rd per. sg., perfect active
Dentatus was...
JCollins
March 13, 2007 - 01:42 pm
Romanus clarus
Romanus is a predicate nominate after the linking verb fuit(to be)
clarus--adjective modifying the noun "Romanus"
famous Roman
formerfarmer
March 13, 2007 - 02:47 pm
qui patriam defendit
qui- pronoun, nom.masc, sg, who
patriam- noun, acc, sg. direct object, means fatherland
defendit- verb, 3d per sg. perfect ,meaning defended
marni0308
March 13, 2007 - 03:10 pm
I'm back from New London and found in my email the monthly Exhibition Newsletter from the Metropolitan Museum of Art. (I'm on the mailing list.) It has info about the upcoming antiquities exhibit including podcasts and other audio info! Here's a link to the info about the
New Greek and Roman Galleries exhibit coming in April:
Met Greek/Roman Galleries Marni
Ginny
March 13, 2007 - 03:22 pm
Great going here I only see one typo, super job, nothing to enter with blue.
Marni what a super thing, thank you so much, will you post that when you get a chance in the Classical Bulletin Board area?
We're not thru this sentence yet but when we are, how about you all strike out on your own and choose your OWN divisions of the next one??!!??
EllH
March 13, 2007 - 04:39 pm
et variis modis -and in various ways
et conjunction-
variis-adj-abl pl describing modis
modis noun- abl pl
abltive of means (?)
JIW
March 13, 2007 - 05:04 pm
...inimica oppida castraque cepit.
inimica: adjective modifying oppida and castra, accusative plural: unfriendly
oppida: noun, accusative plural: towns
castraque: noun with a conjunction added on, accusative plural: and camps
cepit: verb, 3rd pers. sg. of capio, perfect active: he captured
...he captured unfriendly towns and camps.
mouseketeer
March 13, 2007 - 05:10 pm
Modus eius
modus subject nominative masc. singular
eius adjective describing modus masc. singular
his manner (or mode)
Ken1
March 13, 2007 - 08:05 pm
vītae et ab amīcīs et ab inimīcīs
vītae - of life, genitve case
et ab amīcīs - and, conjuction, ab - by, preposition, friends, ablative case
et ab inimīcīs - and, conjuction, ab - by, prepostion, enemies - ablative case
Ginny
March 14, 2007 - 05:42 am
A bright good morning to you all!! I do apologize for being a tad delayed as SeniorNet or my ISP this morning is taking a full 7 minutes to load each page. I have been sitting here now an hour just to try to put one classes' assignment up. If it ever happens I'm not here carry on with the current assignment, sometimes I think we whisk our present assignments away too quickly anyway, let's spend at least 2 days on most of them.
I hope perhaps as the day goes on that the page loading will speed up, and I may be able to go back thru the work here and make a few notes, but for now I'm stuck. What I see is good, good job!
Parsing is important and we will see it again in homework, where we can all apply ourselves to the same difficult sentence. I think you've made a great showing here. I love it, myself, and it really shows you in a heartbeat what you don't know. (OR what you do, which is why I love it). Hahahaa
At any rate I'm finally in and today we sew up what remains of this unit. Ulysses sets sail on Monday, we've MADE IT! We'll work exclusively today on pages 220 and 221 and we'll pose THE hardest thing there IS in a verb form to the next person using only those verbs.
That next person will try to do it without looking (and then he can check before posting if he must), in this way you can have a gentle nudge from Great Caesar's Ghost peering over your shoulder and suggesting forms, after all he DID write a grammar and tomorrow we'll see him up close and personal! You can also use the class work as a self check, hummmm I see that challenge what would I have said, OH that's what it is? And so forth!
But for today I guess I'll pose the first challenge in our verb review along with the two new ones on page 221, and I'll say:
You (s) are affected____________ and let's make it interesting let's add two more, all in the same person and voice:
you (s) are affected/ you will be affected, you had been affected, all 2nd singular?_____ _______ _________
fdobbs
March 14, 2007 - 07:25 am
afficeris
afficieris
affectus eras
Next:they were led,have been led, will have been led
marni0308
March 14, 2007 - 08:39 am
they were led, have been led, will have been led
think of WERE as the Imperfect: ducebantur ductī sunt, ductī sunt (same as former?), ductī erunt
Next: you (pl) wrote, you (pl) had written, you (pl) will have written
Hella
March 14, 2007 - 09:12 am
you (pl) wrote, you (pl) had written, you (pl) will have written
scrīpsistis you wrote
scrīpserātis you had written
scrīpseritis you will have written
Next: it is known; it has been known; it will be known
JIW
March 14, 2007 - 10:14 am
Next: it is known; it has been known; it will be known
Can we do this with our present vocabulary? As I understand it, for nosco and cognosco, the know translation only occurs in the perfect tenses; in the present and future they translate as learn. So, I think only the second challenge can be done at this point?
it has been known: novit; cognovit
Next: you (pl) used to rule, were being ruled, had been ruled
cook1
March 14, 2007 - 10:42 am
You (pl) used to rule, you were being ruled, you had been ruled
Regēbātis
Regēbamini
Rectī erātis
Next: It is read. It has been read. It will have been read.
fdobbs
March 14, 2007 - 11:36 am
legitur:it is read
legitum est:It has been read
legitum erit:it will have been
next:we shall flee, we were fleeing, we have fled
formerfarmer
March 14, 2007 - 12:19 pm
we shall flee, we were fleeing, we have fled
fugiemus--we shall flee
fugiebamus--we were fleeing
fugimus----we have fled
next: we hold, we have been held, we shall have been held
EllH
March 14, 2007 - 01:21 pm
habemus we hold
habiti sumus- we have been held
habiti erimus- we will have been held
next: you will obey (pl) you have been obeyed you had been obyed
JIW
March 14, 2007 - 01:41 pm
Going back to the challenge in #1036 and my response in #1037:
Next: it is known; it has been known; it will be known
Would "it is known" be the same as "it has been learned"? notum est?
"It has been known" should have been notum est (NOT novit).
"it will be known": notum erit
cook1
March 14, 2007 - 04:48 pm
On pg. 566 - verbs...what does it mean when one see's ( -ere or - re) next to one of the verbs?
Ginny
March 14, 2007 - 04:57 pm
Yes these are excellent points and I neglected to pay attention to the dreaded nosco brothers, sort of like the Mafia, lurking there.
If you tried to use and apply the rules we've always used I've left it. nosco means know in the perfect and so does cognovit so they are not good candidates for this exercise, you are right JIW, it just makes a confusion. So let's move on saying that we're all right, in that we're trying to apply forms to tenses and we are alert now to the special meaning of nosco and cognosco (I tend to avoid them, myself) but if you're translating you really DO need to know that Caesar says novit and he means he knows (for he has learned).
Would "it is known" be the same as "it has been learned"? notum est?
yes I think that would be perfect, pesky but perfect! I like scio for know myself, but scio is not in here neither is intellego. (I'll make comments in this post only).
"It has been known" should have been notum est (NOT novit). Right because novit is he knows, (he has learned) what a pesky word, don't you want to slap it? hahaha er....
On pg. 566 - verbs...what does it mean when one see's ( -ere or - re) next to one of the verbs?
Another good question. The -re means that IS an alternative form that SOME authors used for the 2nd person singular, and so when you see it it's not the infinitive, it's rare, it's strange, but UH assumes you all are for careers in classics and they don't want one of their students, not THEIR students to not know every single little thing! I would file that one away with the nosco brothers for a very very rainy day.
Speaking of rainy days, I know you know what tomorrow is! BE on guard!
Ginny
March 14, 2007 - 05:02 pm
And here's a new challenge: we seek/ (peto) we are sought/ we will be sought
Good job here today!
mouseketeer
March 14, 2007 - 05:42 pm
peto, petere, petivi, petitus
we seek petimus
we are sought: petimur
we will be sought petemur
Next: it is folded, it has been folded, it will be folded
Ken1
March 14, 2007 - 09:13 pm
it is folded, it has been folded, it will be folded
plicātor - it is folded
plicātus erat - it has been folded this is had been, you want plicatus est
plicātus erit - it will be folded plicabitur
Next: he has been dragged/he has dragged/he will be dragged
Ginny
March 15, 2007 - 03:11 am
You've seen this before but I thought it worth repeating today!
"The Ides of March are come."
"Yes they are come, but they are not past-"
Julius Caesar to the soothsayer who had told him "Beware the Ides of March," and the soothsayer's response, quoted in Plutarch's
Lives On this day more than 2,000 years ago, in 44 BC, on the Ides of March, Julius Caesar was assassinated, a day which still lives in infamy, and which has been the inspiration of many writers including Shakespeare. Dante placed the assassins Brutus and Cassius in the lowest circle of his
Inferno, reserved for the most damned, along with Judas. Even his enemies agreed Caesar was a genius. He combined "preeminently the qualities of statesmanship, generalship, discernment and clemency. " (Oxford Companion to Classical Literature).
The Ides of March (click to enlarge)
"Caesar was a "supreme virtuoso... great beyond-and even in conflict with-the requirements of his political ambition. He showed a human spiritual greatness in his generosity to defeated opponents, which was partly responsible for his assassination... he [is] a giant by comparison with the common run of human beings." Encyclopedia Britannica
That's not a bad epitaph 2000 years later.
The World Book refers to Julius Caesar as "one of the greatest men in the history of the world."
Warsley says,
"Julius Caesar is considered by many historians to have been, in natural talent, one of the most remarkable men that ever lived...He was military genius, an orator, a statesman, an historian, an astronomer, and engineer, a poet, a writer, and a grammarian."
He
was a giant, Cassius was right about that: a Colossus.
Some of the many contributions of Julius Caesar include his creation of the calendar. The Julian Calendar was used until Pope Gregory XIII in 1582 made corrections and it became the Gregorian calendar. Several German states continued to use the Julian Calendar until the 1700s. Great Britain used the Julian Calendar until 1752. The Julian calendar was used in Russia until the Russian Revolution in 1918. Turkey used the Julian Calendar until 1927.
Caesar reformed the provinces and the dishonest practices there. He established a plan to reorganize city government in Italy. He replaced dishonest governors with honest ones, and allowed the citizens of many provinces to attain Roman citizenship. His military strategy is still studied today in our military academies. He appointed many of his opponents to high office and pardoned some he should not have, which led to his assassination. He instituted reforms for the poor and distributed the dole to only those who were "in need," sort of a work for pay effort, and established early colonies where the poor could find a living, notably in Corinth and Carthage. He invented the One Way Street.
Warsley continues on the projects left unfinished by his assassination:
Caesar had in mind to do many things for the advantage of the Roman people and state, following the end of his military campaigns.
Among some of the proposed projects, he planned to drain the great Pontine marshes because of the unhealthy air they caused and because he would make the land serviceable for housing projects; he intended to open a communication between the Ionian and the Aegean Seas, by cutting through the Isthmus of Corinth; to build harbors along the coast of Italy; to open wide roads over the Apennines; to have a canal dug from the Anio and Tiber to the sea, and to rebuild Carthage and Corinth. He had many plans to build splendid public buildings and for establishing public libraries in Rome, to revise the whole code of Roman laws of the Twelve Tables by reducing them to simpler form. Augustus followed through on some of these proposals.
At Caesar's death he was on the point of starting out on a military campaign to avenge Crassus and his death by the Parthans.
The spot in the Forum where Caesar's body was cremated was made a temple by Augustus. Nothing of it remains today, but the actual spot is able to be visited and viewed, in the Forum at Rome. It's quite unprepossessing, there's a tin roof over it, it consists of some rocks or a black rock in a recessed area with a walkway around it. It's dark inside on the brightest day, and surprisingly effective, and the crowds queuing to get in are huge. It always has fresh flowers on it? Always. I was there when they opened it and nobody knew what it was. There's now a legend that on the Ides of March red roses appear on the rock, and even tho they have sat watch all night, they are unable to see who puts them there, not sure why that would be significant after 2,000 years, but it's a nice spooky story.
The story of Caesar's assassination is fascinating, as is all of his life. You can find some accounts in Plutarch but you need to also read the section on Brutus and Cassius for things left out of the section on Caesar.
A writer of brevity and occasional sardonic wit, the man who coined the phrase "Veni, vidi, vici," I came, I saw, I conquered, about his short war in Anatolia in 47 BC, has left a lasting mark on the world two thousand years later. Hopefully before long you can read his own words in the original so he can speak directly to you across 2,000 years of history!
The date of Caesar's actual funeral was the 20th. It seems a shame, to me, in the Forum so filled with stunning triumphal monuments like the Arch of Titus, that this pitiful thing of Caesar's remains, but it was a temple, but it's gone, and they're trying to put some shelter over this rock, but here's something you might enjoy seeing:
The site of Caesar's funeral pyre in the Forum in Rome in March, 2006:
Every year on March 15 somebody manages to place roses on the spot where Caesar was burned. They have set guards in the Forum but nobody can manage to catch whoever does it. Here is the plaque marking the spot "> and a view of some of the crowds in March of 2006: The pointed roof in the background is the cover over what remains of Caesar's temple.
This photo is reproduced with the kind permission of Renι Seindal, and was taken 2002-09-04. Here is a link to his beautiful site: Photographs and explanations of Rome.
From the site:
The Temple of Caesar (Aedes Divus Iulius or Templum Divi Iuli) was built by Augustus after the senate deified Julius Caesar after his death. The temple was dedicated August 18th, 29 BCE. It stands on the E. side of the main square of the Forum Romanum, between the Regia, Temple of Castor and Pollux and the the Basilica Aemilia.
After Julius Caesar was murdered, his body was carried to the forum, near the Regia, which was his official residence as pontifex maximus. A funeral pyre was built and his body cremated. Initially a commemorative column was erected on the spot with a dedication to the "father of the fatherland", but soon after Augustus started the construction of a temple for his adoptive father who the senate had declared a god. The temple was finished and consecrated in 29 BCE.
The temple was built in the Italian style. It rested on a tall podium in opus caementicium with access stairways on the sides of the temple. It was prostyle, hexastyle with two columns on the sides of the pronaos. No columns have survived but the temple was probably of the Corinthian order. In the front of the pronaos there was a semi-circular recess with a small altar inside. This might indicated the location of the funeral pyre. The protective wall in front of the altar was added later by Augustus.
(Thanks to Pat Westerdale for finding the cartoon graphics for us) The Goldsworthy new bestseller Caesar is highly recommended for the truth about this incredible man.
Ginny
March 15, 2007 - 03:11 am
The Roman Calendar
If you've been wondering about "The Ides," you'll want to know this fascinating information on the Roman calendar. Our thanks to volunteers Maryemm, Edith Anne, and Evelyn for their work in transcribing this from the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature:
THE ROMAN CALENDAR:
The original Roman calendar, attributed to Romulus, was purely agricultural, consisting of ten very irregular months totaling 304 days running from March to December ("month ten, decem), with an uncounted gap in the Winter when no agricultural work was possible. The change to a 12 month lunar calendar (perhaps with an intercalary month of 22 or 23 days) wa sattributed to Numa, and another tradition suggests that in C.450 BC the decemvirs tried to amend (or even invent) the intercalary system. However, no system of regular intercalation successfully adjusted this lunar calendar to the solar year, and, from 218 BC to Caesar's reform of 45BC the pontiffs adjusted the calendar as seemed best to them.
In 153 BC January was made the first month. By Caesar's day the Roman year consisted of 355 days divided into 12 months;
This Roman calendar corresponded with neither the sun nor the moon, and by 46 BC the civic and solar years were discrepant by about 3 months. On the advice of the mathematician Sosigenes, Caesar gave the year 46BC 445 days to remove the discrepancy, and from 1 January 45 made the year consist of 365 days, with the individual months having essentially the same length in the modern calendar. he also introduced the leap year, as first used every three years in error ; from 8 BC it occurred every 4 years, as now.The extra day (now 29 February) was added by repeating 24 February, the so-called "bissextile" day (lit."the sixth day twice" i.e. five days before the Kalends of March : see 5 below). In this Julian calendar the year is about eleven minutes longer than the solar year. Between the ouncil of Nicaea in AD 325 and the late sixteenth century the accumulated difference amounted to ten days; accordingly pope Gregory XIII omitted ten days from 1582 and suggested that three intercalary days be omitted every four hundred years. England, eventually adopted this Gregorian calendar in 1752. but the modern calendar is essentially the Julian, which is still used for dates before 1582.
MONTHS:
The days in the Roman month were reckoned in relation to three named days : the first of the month, the Kalends (Kalendae); Nones (Nonae); and the thirteenth (or fifteenth in a month of 31 days), the Ides (Idus). The number of the day was calculated by counting backwards from the next named day, the named day and the day to be numbered both being included in the count.
ThusThus 28 May was a(nte) d(iem) V Kal(endas) Jun(ias) ('the fifth day before 1 June'). Days were marked in the calendar F, C, or N according as they were *fasti, days on which the court of the praetor urbanus was open for business; comitiales, days on which comitia might be held; or nefasti,days on which no public business was transacted. (See also DIES FASTI.) For the Roman "week" see NUNDINAE.
YEARS
The Romans dated their year by the names of the consuls. In both Greece and Rome the calendar year became concurrent with the civil year, i.e. the magistrate's year of office, whatever the month in which it began. At Athens the civil year began with the month Hekatombaion, usually after the summer solstice (see 2 above); at Rome after 153 BC it began on 1 January. It was probably Caesar's intention when he reformed the Roman calendar in 46 BC to begin the year with the shortest day, 24 December, but in the event the start was delayed for seven days in order to make the first reformed year begin on the day of the new moon.
The method of dating by magistrates is only effective if the series of names continues uninterrupted. (From Diodorus we have a list of Athenian archons from 480 to 302 BC; for Roman history we have a complete list of consuls from the foundation of the republic in 509 BC to AD 541, although in at least the first two centuries the names may be largely fictitious.) Dating by eras, where the years are numbered consecutively from an agreed starting-point, e.g. the foundation of Rome, has obvious advantages. In the fifth century BC some Greeks had used to establish an era the periodic Pan-Hellenic Games, especially the Olympian games, whose first recorded victor won in 776 B. C. and which recurred every four years
Under the empire, years were dated by the names of consuls and also by the regnal years of emperors, many local eras were also used. This method of reckoning by indictions was introduced by the emperor Diocletian and from AD 312 dates were reckoned in fifteen-year periods. This practice originated in the system of taxation; it was regularly used for dating financial years and sometimes for dating other documents even up to the Middle Ages and beyond. A number was used for the position of a year within an indiction, but quite often a writer did not bother to number the indictions themselves systemically.
The method of dating by the years of the Christian era was introduced in the mid-sixth century by Dionysius Exiguus, a Scythian monk who lived at Rome. He took as year 1 the year of Jesus' birth, which he believed to be 753 AUC. In fact Jesus was born a few years earlier. It has to be remembered, in calculating dates, that the year AD 1 was preceded by the year 1 BC (i.e. there is no year 0), and that therefore the interval between e.g. 5 BC and AD 5 is 9 not 10 years.
NUNDINAE
In the Roman calendar nundinae "every ninth day," was a market-day occurring at regular intervals of eight days according to the Roman inclusive method of reckoning. The days of this eight-day "week" were marked in the calendar by the letters A to H and nundinae had the letter A assigned to it. It was a day of rest from agricultural labour , and a day on which country people would come into Rome.
CLOCKS:
Clocks (horologia; sing. Gk. Hōrologion, Lat. Hōrologium.) In ordinary life the Greeks and Romans referred to the time of day in descriptive terms, 'first light', 'midday', etc. The hour, when used, was not a twenty-fourth part of the astronomical day but one-twelfth of the time from sunrise to sunset (or sunset to sunrise), and its length therefore varied with latitude and season.
The clocks which were used to measure these hours in the ancient world were all variants of two basic kinds, the shadow-clock or sundial and the water-clock (*clepsydra). The earliest preserved examples have been found in Egypt. According to Herodotus, the Greeks learned the use of the shadow-clock from the Babylonians. (A later tradition ascribed the invention to *Anaximander or Anaximenes.)
In its simplest form it consisted of a vertical staff, the gnōmōn, set up in a place exposed to the sun so that its shadow might be measured. Another version was the polos, a concave basin in the center of which a gnomon was erected. The shadow-clock had disadvantages other than its dependence on sunshine: it required different scales according to latitude, and for dividing the period of daylight into equal parts it required, like the water-clock, seasonal correction.
The first clocks brought to Rome in the third century B.C. were shadow-clocks in the form of sundials, solāria, erected in public view. The most famous was one captured in Sicily in 263 BC and set up on a column behind the Rostra, but it was unfortunately not adapted to the latitude of Rome. P. Scipio Nasica, during his censorship of 159 BC, erected a public clepsydra which told the hours of day and of night. A magnificent shadow-clock was erected by Augustus in the Campus Martius, its gnomon an Egyptian obelisk (see HOROLOGIUM OF AUGUSTUS).
Clocks were also kept by private individuals (see HEROPHILUS) Cicero sent one to Tiro. The Alexandrian inventor Ctesibius was said to have designed a water-clock in which dripping water turned wheels which gradually elevated a small statue whose pointing stick indicated the passing hours. Clepsydrae were used by the Romans in their military camps to measure the four watches into which the night was divided. See also HOROLOGION OF ANDRONICUS.
Now there is NOTHING about the Roman calendar that you do not know! The Julian Calendar which Julius Caesar constructed was used in England until 1752 and in Russia until the Russian Revolution of 1919. "The modern calendar is essentially Julian and the Julian is still used for dates before 1582,"
Ginny
March 15, 2007 - 03:15 am
ANOTHER unit down! Is there anything you can't do? I'll go first this morning with our Unit Review.
How will this review best help ME? We'll begin on page 227. It's possible due to interruptions in our own lives that we don't have each of these words perfectly. Let's take this weekend to try to get them straight. Use page 227 as a flash card or use any of the new and up to date games to help.
Use page 220 to try to see how many of these verbs you can do the principal parts of cold. Note how they have arranged them under the root word, like accipio from capio, that's to remind you they really are capio with prefixes.
Ok but I'll go first:
Page 227, 1-17, let's work with these 17 in a round robin today!
with diligence__________
cook1
March 15, 2007 - 06:12 am
diligentia - ablative, sg., F
Next: Of diligence.
Ginny
March 15, 2007 - 06:14 am
The next will be something with #2 ludus, let's say of the games________________
mouseketeer
March 15, 2007 - 06:28 am
of the games: ludorum
modus: in the manner
formerfarmer
March 15, 2007 - 07:23 am
in the manner --in modo
in nature
fdobbs
March 15, 2007 - 07:33 am
in naturA
next:who---the boy (who )read the book.
mouseketeer
March 15, 2007 - 08:26 am
qui I took it to be a relative clause, which might have continued,
e.g., The boy who read the book enjoyed it.
Next Who battled the giant?
Hella
March 15, 2007 - 09:04 am
Who battled the giant? - quis
Next: he learns the words
JCollins
March 15, 2007 - 09:19 am
Next: he learns the words
he learns-cognoscit
next--he had collected the stamps
marni0308
March 15, 2007 - 12:24 pm
I just LOVE that info about Caesar and the calendar etc. Caesar certainly was a man for all seasons. I want to read that biography Ginny mentioned.
-----------------------------------
he had collected the stamps - coEgerat
Next: you (pl) will have saved money
JCollins
March 15, 2007 - 12:44 pm
Next: you (pl) will have saved money
conserviveritis conserveritis
next--they will have been given many gifts.
Ginny
March 15, 2007 - 01:22 pm
Thank you Marni, we'll be seeing parts of that calendar again, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
I'll ask to have it put in the L&A as well.
Great job in review here, I'm looking forward to Monday but even tho you have no assignment for tomorrow to speak of you're still hanging in here, that's the mark of a good class. I worried about the Thursday-Sunday thing but this looks as if it will work!
JCollins
March 15, 2007 - 01:33 pm
One v too many in my last post
cook1
March 15, 2007 - 03:28 pm
they will have been given many gifts.
Deditī erunt dederint correction of teacher! hahaha dati erunt multi donī.
Next: He had stopped.
JCollins
March 15, 2007 - 04:39 pm
Next: He had stopped.
intermIserat
next--they will have been warned
formerfarmer
March 15, 2007 - 05:43 pm
they will have been warned
moniti erunt
we were being held
formerfarmer
March 15, 2007 - 05:49 pm
regarding post #1063 shouldn't that be future perfect- passive or am I tangling up my tenses?
JCollins
March 15, 2007 - 06:23 pm
we were being held
obtinEbAmur
next--They had been moved deeply
Ken1
March 15, 2007 - 08:38 pm
They had been moved deeply
permonitī permoti erant
Next: We had been seized
Ginny
March 16, 2007 - 03:43 am
A bright good morning to you! Why Bill, I think you must win the prize today, you're absolutely correct!!!! It IS Passive, good for you!!!
I am impressed with the homework and the class work and I really think you have GOT this nailed. I'm almost thru the homework papers for this class and they all look splendid, just a few more to go this morning.
Let's continue thru the weekend our review here and not flag in class, we need the class work. In looking at page 229 I see quite a few possibilities in paragraph 298 and I see a particularly insidious looking thing in Form Drill 2. Let's try that today.
You can ask any verb as we have been OR you can pick something else.
I'll go first, Form Drill 2, it says decline quae natura, that's scary let's do that first and then pick something else on this page,
So I'll start:
quae natura: your turn for the Genitive singular!_______ ________
mouseketeer
March 16, 2007 - 04:05 am
cuius naturae
Next: ablative pf quae natura
GeneJ
March 16, 2007 - 06:39 am
Next: ablative pf quae natura
quā naturā ---- I took the singular
next: dative singular of quae natura
Maryemm
March 16, 2007 - 07:15 am
Freaky Friday!!! Good morning, Everyone,
March 16th The Terminalis Celebrations which had commenced on the 23rd of February ended on March 16th. Feasting now gave way to fasting which preceded the Dies sanguinis (Day of the Blood).
XVI et XVII Martius On these days the shrines of the Argei would be visited.
The argei were human-shaped bundles of rushes that would be thrown into the river later in the year.
According to the Oxford Companion to Classical Literature, there were twenty seven of the shrines throughout the city. The meaning of the rite, evidently , is disputed.
QUOTE: The argei may have been offerings to the river God to pacify him to tolerate the bridge across his stream. or a substitute for human sacrifice in time of famine. There seems to have been a saying at Rome which refers to this practice: sexagenariosde ponte" "off the bridge with the 60 year olds" UNQUOTE
............... March 17th LIBERALIA Liber Pater was an old God of fertility, associated with Dionysus. An important cult on the Aventine Hill with his female counterparts Libera and Ceres ensured the split jurisdiction over the female and male seed respectively.
A fine statue of Liber found at the extensive sanctuary at Dacia (modern Romania) CERES The Liberalia, on the 17th of March, was characterised by crude songs, by masks hung on trees and by a rustic ceremony where a large phallus was carried around the countryside to ensure the fertility of the crops.
The festival was a popular time for boys to put on the "toga virilis".
................... QUINQUATRUS : in Roman religion a festival that started five days after the Ides.
The 19th was sacred to Minerva ,Goddess of handicrafts, teachers, artists. doctors and public sacrifices were offered to her in her sacred grove along the Via Flaminia.
From Ovid's 'Fasti', commemorating the festival of Quinquatrus, Minerva's birthday
Dies admoniet et forti sacrificare deae, quod est illa nata Minerva die.
This day reminds us to sacrifice to the strong goddess, for today is Minerva's birthday.
Pallada nunc oremus. Qui bene placavit Pallada, doctus erit.
Let us pray now to Pallas, for whosoever wins Pallas' favour shall be learned.
For an image of Minerva and more of Ovid's "Fasti" see:
SONG of MINERVA .................. More games from
Edith Anne ;
Third Conjugation Principal Parts Colosseum, Verus Romanus et Publius Marco Sal: Hangman Thank you again, Edith Anne.
and finally...............
Ginny has written about the Ides of March but I cannot end without referring to the old,old joke recreated in the "Carry on Cleo" film and delivered by Kenneth Williams.
After the stabbings, Caesar(in the spoof film) looks at the conspirators and utters the "immortal" line:
"Oh Infamy! Infamy! You've all got in in for me!!"
fdobbs
March 16, 2007 - 07:26 am
Dative sg.--cui naturae
next:acc.sg.of quae natura
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 07:42 am
next: dative singular of quae natura
cui naturae
next--accusative sing of quae natura
fdobbs
March 16, 2007 - 07:44 am
acc. sg.--quam naturam
next:abl. sg. of quae natura
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 07:59 am
next:abl. sg. of quae natura
quA naturA
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 08:01 am
next--nominative plural of of quae natura
GeneJ
March 16, 2007 - 08:46 am
next--nominative plural of of quae natura
quae naturae
next-- dative plural of quae natura
fdobbs
March 16, 2007 - 09:01 am
Gen.pl.quarum naturarum
next:dat.pl.
fdobbs
March 16, 2007 - 09:03 am
I'm putting in Dat.pl.also as I have to go off line for awhile.
Dat.pl.quibus naturis
GeneJ
March 16, 2007 - 09:14 am
Just posted the challenge.
next--ablative plural of of quae natura
marni0308
March 16, 2007 - 09:16 am
Accusative plural - quās naturās
Next: Ablative Pl
marni0308
March 16, 2007 - 09:18 am
Maryemm: Thanks for the fascinating info. Wow, those Romans were pretty wild! The Liberalia must have been something. Whew.
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 09:30 am
Next: Ablative Pl
quibus naturalis
next-nom. sing. of quod signum
GeneJ
March 16, 2007 - 10:51 am
next-nom. sing. of quod signum
quod signum
next: accusative plural of quod signum
cook1
March 16, 2007 - 11:03 am
accusative plural of quod signum
Quōs signōs quae signa it's neuter
Next: Genitive, sg. - quod signum
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 11:09 am
Next: Genitive, sg. - quod signum
cuius signI
next--dative sing. of quod signum
Hella
March 16, 2007 - 11:55 am
dative sing. of quod signum - cui signō
Next: acc. sing. of quod signum
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 12:10 pm
Next: acc. sing. of quod signum
quod signum
next--ablative sing of quod signum
marni0308
March 16, 2007 - 12:26 pm
ablative sing of quod signum - quibus signIs
Oops, I'm doing pl. Hmmmmm.
quO signO
Next: Nom pl quod signum
fdobbs
March 16, 2007 - 12:29 pm
Nom.pl.of quod signum---quae signa
next; gen.pl.
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 12:34 pm
next; gen.pl.
quorum signorum
next--dative plural
Ginny
March 16, 2007 - 12:37 pm
Great job! I found my birthday in Maryemm's link: 4. pridie Non. Feb., did you find yours?
fdobbs
March 16, 2007 - 12:37 pm
Dat.pl.--quibus signis
next:acc.pl.
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 12:43 pm
next:acc.pl.
quae signa
next--ablative plural
fdobbs
March 16, 2007 - 12:46 pm
abl.pl.--quibus signis
qui dominus--nom.sg.
next:gen.sg.
Maryemm
March 16, 2007 - 12:54 pm
re
Ginny's post 1093
My classmate
Sandy posted the link, not yours truly.
Here it is :
JULIAN CALENDAR
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 12:55 pm
next:gen.sg.
cuius domini
next--dative sing
fdobbs
March 16, 2007 - 12:57 pm
dat.sg. cui domino
next: acc.sg.
JCollins
March 16, 2007 - 01:01 pm
next: acc.sg.
quem dominum
next--ablative sing.
cook1
March 16, 2007 - 01:56 pm
Abla. Sg.- quem dominum
quō dominō
Next: gen., pl., quem dominum
formerfarmer
March 16, 2007 - 02:01 pm
gen., pl., quem dominum
quorum dominorum
next: dat. pl.
cook1
March 16, 2007 - 02:08 pm
#1063 of 1101)
they will have been given many gifts.
Deditī erunt dederint correction of teacher! hahaha dati erunt multi donī.
Ginny...I've looked at this correction and still don't understand how "given" could be in the perfect tense, passive. I thought "will have been" would put it into the future perfect, passive.
formerfarmer
March 16, 2007 - 02:24 pm
cook1.
they will have been given many gifts.
they are not doing the action, it is being done to them.
does that help?
marni0308
March 16, 2007 - 02:24 pm
next: dat. pl.
quibus dominIs
Next: acc. pl.
cook1
March 16, 2007 - 02:45 pm
#1104 of 1105) Yes...that did help and thank you formerfarmer, for your help...
cook1
March 16, 2007 - 02:50 pm
acc. pl.
quōs dominōs
Next: Nom., sg.
Ginny
March 16, 2007 - 02:52 pm
Great class and I'll add a little sort of formula type thing to Bill's excellent explanation.
they will have been given many gifts.
will: Future
have: Perfect
been given: Passive and Perfect Participle.
VOILA!!
I like Bill's better. Let me go find that link, hold on@
Ginny
March 16, 2007 - 02:56 pm
here it is, from SandyRose: The Julian Calendar: How would you say YOUR birthday if Caesar asked you?
Maryemm
March 17, 2007 - 05:19 am
A Happy St Patrick's Day to You. St Patrick's birthplace seems to vary from one "expert" to another, but all seem to agree on the Roman connection.
QUOTE: Legend has it that St Patrick was born Maewyn Succat, to an Anglo-Roman family in Wales, in 415 AD. When he was 16 years of age he was captured by an Irish pagan warlord, Niall of the Nine Hostages, and he spent six miserable years in Ireland until he escaped to France.
Maewyn went on to become a priest, changing his name to Patricius, or Patrick, which derives from the Latin for father-figure - other derivations include patrician, patron and patronize. Rather than forgetting his wretched experiences in Ireland, he decided to go back to the country that enslaved him, and he spent his later years preaching Christianity to the Irish, banishing snakes and popularizing the shamrock. He used this three-leaved grass to help explain the Trinity, how God could be three entities (God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit) yet, at the same time, be one. This is the reason that the shamrock is the national emblem for Ireland.
UNQUOTE. For more detail, see;
St Patrick
Ginny
March 17, 2007 - 05:42 am
Well sure and begorrah I forgot it was St. Patrick's day, I love that story of his driving out the snakes from Ireland, I remember from teaching Sunday School many eons ago all he DID do and it was spectacular, didn't he bring reading to Ireland? As well as conquering the Druids, very impressive story about the fires! Thank you for that, Maryemm!!
Great job here and I did catch another little bobblet last night, so check back and be sure they all look correct to you all!
We're almost thru with qui dominus and when we are, let's throw it open to ANYTHING in this Unit you'd like to review. You can use page 227 or page 220 or anything else you'd like to see us work on: the floor is yours once we finish with dominus and qui!
Ginny
March 19, 2007 - 03:22 am
A bright good morning to you this morning! As you can see in the heading we'll start out with our new translations this morning and then we'll move on to some new work.
We're going to take up a biggie today, as the TV program used to say, Mr. Big is coming, let's enjoy our translations first! hahaha
It's always a toss up, and I don't want us to feel that the only thing IN Latin is just drill, (it's the other way around), but on the other hand we need all the practice we can get.
As you can see in the heading, I could not resist putting up some photos from the front you might say to go along with our letter home. I like this letter as it shows you in it's style how the Romans wrote real letters, and of course there was no TV no radio no internet, so news from the front travelled slowly.
Every evening Caesar would retire to his tent at night and dictate his account of what happened that day. I lack that discipline on a trip, much less in fighting a campaign! Lacking our modern press, the Romans were somewhat ....careful in what they recorded. Victories were recorded in all detail, defeats were made the best light of or glossed over as you will see when we get there. You can appreciate Caesar's dry wit in a lot of what he wrote. Sometimes you have to go to other sources in order to find out, for instance, that one of the invastions of Britain included one of the generals on ship bravely exhorting the troops, leading the way by leaping off the side of the boat into the water and promptly sinking over his head! hahaha At any rate, we'll have an eyewitness account...Caesar
s version when we get to Caesar.
The top illustration here is from The Illustrated Caesar's Gallic War, in comic book form, not a word of Ensligh in it. The ISBN should you be interested is 0-8442-8629-X.
Have you seen the volcano on the news?!?!
The floor is now open for your translation~
JCollins
March 19, 2007 - 04:42 am
Publius pays his respects to Marcus.
If you be well it is very good; I am well.
formerfarmer
March 19, 2007 - 05:16 am
I have read with great interest your letter which had been written and folded with care. ( here litteras means a single epistle- how do we treat the verb which is plural?) Just as you did.
JIW
March 19, 2007 - 05:50 am
You ask about Gaul and you wish to know about us.
JCollins
March 19, 2007 - 05:56 am
Our life is not difficult.
cook1
March 19, 2007 - 05:59 am
The great number of prisoners in camp already was constrained. collected: if the meaning you thought was right does not make sense, look further in the dictionary, good work.
JIW
March 19, 2007 - 06:03 am
Caesar already has fought many battles and fortified many towns, whose protection he holds. with guards
formerfarmer
March 19, 2007 - 06:17 am
Soon he will be the master of Gaul;
cook1
March 19, 2007 - 06:17 am
The Gauls will be driven back into the province and they will build new roads.
Hella
March 19, 2007 - 06:19 am
Soon he will be the master of Gaul; Gaul will be reduced to a province and new roads will be built.
Hella
March 19, 2007 - 06:22 am
Since I took the same sentence as farmer and cook, I'll take the next one:
But the master will be just.
JIW
March 19, 2007 - 06:40 am
Then he will lead our men across the Rhein and will terrify the Germans.
JCollins
March 19, 2007 - 06:52 am
Already he warned them.
formerfarmer
March 19, 2007 - 06:56 am
I approve the manner in which he wages war
JCollins
March 19, 2007 - 07:04 am
His motto is--I come--I see--I conquer.
cook1
March 19, 2007 - 07:14 am
Great and distinguished is the man.
JCollins
March 19, 2007 - 07:22 am