Our Souls by Kent Haruf ~ July 18 ~ July Book Club Online

[BooksAdmin]

The Book Club Online is the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.

July Book Club Online
Start date: July 18 Discussion Leader: Ella Gibbons 

Our Souls at Night
by Kent Haruf

Only 149 pages but not one of them wasted.  Haruf writes simply, beautifully, exploring human relationships; all the myriad emotions of life.  An original writer, I think it a wonderful book, best book I've read in a long time, and I want to discuss it with others, share and explore our own emotions.  Addie makes a proposal! Join us, you'll be shocked at the first page, but do keep reading. Read the entire book and then we will begin our discussion on July 18th.

[Ella Gibbons]

You have just a few days to get this book (if you are late, we'll still let you post!) and read it.  It won't take long, just 149 pages, but you will want to discuss it with someone, share your view.

Believe me when I say, you will love this book and as they used to say "We'll keep the light on for you."

[JoanK]

I'll try to get the book.

[PatH]

I've got the book from my library, and am good to go.

[nlhome]

I found the book in the library. I'd actually started it once, then put it back on the shelf. This time I'll read it.

[BarbStAubrey]

My book arrived from Amazon - timing on this is not good for me - my daughter arrives from NC on the 18th and I have been working on a transaction that is unbelievably difficult - but I want to read this with the group so I may be haphazard with posts.

[Ella Gibbons]

Great!   THANKS!  Perhaps we should mention a few honors the author received:  Whiting Foundation Writers' Award, the Mountain and Plains Booksellers Award, the Wallace Stegner Award , a finalist the National Book Award, the Los Angeles Times Book Prize and the New Yorker Book Award. 

Read more: https://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/what-novelist-kent-haruf-taught-me-about-writing-and-life/2015/06/24/2560bf8e-1378-11e5-89f3-61410da94eb1_story.html

[Ella Gibbons]

AND:     http://www.nytimes.com/2014/12/03/books/kent-haruf-sublime-novelist-of-small-town-life-dies-at-71.html?_r=0

[Ella Gibbons]

A fellow we would all like to have met, looks like a gentle soul, good husband, good man.  I have requested his other books from my library.

[Ella Gibbons]

We are all going to be DISCUSSION LEADERS HERE.  Ask and answer questions! 

This is just something to whet your appetite for the book. 

The novel starts with the word "And."  "And then there was the day...."    Words that we might use to start a conversation with a friend.

[JoanK]

Are we to read it in sections, or all at once?

[Ella Gibbons]

I didn't make that clear, did I?   Read  it all at once and then we are going to talk about it - the whole book - talk as long as we want to or until we run out of something else to say!!!  Do we ever? hahahaha

Beginning July 18th. 

[JoanK]

Only at midnight! Ok, here I go. I got the "free sample" from Amazon, and it stops just at a most interesting point!

[ANNIE]

I got the book yesterday and read it last night!  Unusual book!😋😋😋

[Ella Gibbons]

Yes, Ann, an unusual book!  But one that speaks to "older people" don't you think?  At one point Addie says "I made up my mind I'm not going to pay attention to what people think, I've done that too long."

I'm older than Addie, but have yet to reach that point of view!  Sounds good, but............

How about you, Ann?

[Ella Gibbons]

I'm getting ahead of our discussion here, sorry.   

AND...I did want to welcome JOANK, PAT, BARBARA AND NLHOME to the discussion.  It's going to be a good one, can't wait.

But we should, perhaps more people are coming???

Here is a picture of our author.  I would love to have known him, wouldn't you?


Photograph: Sophie Bassouls/Corbis

[marcie]

I got the book from my library and have read it also. I wouldn't have picked it up if you hadn't recommended it, Ella. I'm so glad you did.  I'd love to join this discussion. I can't renew the book since more people have requested the copies in the library system but I've put it on hold again and hope I get the other copy soon so I can refer to it.

[Ella Gibbons]

Happy to have you posting, Marcie, and thanks for putting Kent Haruf's picture here. As you said, it's hard to get a copy from the library, so many on  hold.  I just bought a copy, a used one, which is just like new.

[Mkaren557]

I'd like to join you as well.  I got this book this morning at 10:00 and finished it at 1:00pm.  I couldn't put this down.

[marcie]

Mkaren, I'm glad you'll be joining the group. It will be interesting to talk about this book. Yes, a quick read but so much packed into those words.

[Ella Gibbons]

Welcome Karen!   Yes, a quick read, but a 2nd or third read will give all of us more insight to our author's ideas of getting older and our need for companionship.  We'll start to talk about it all in just three days.
 
Does the title of the book have any meaning?  How does it relate to the book?

[ginny]

Just stepping in temporarily while Ella is unexpectedly in hospital to say this is (this is what I was going to say anyway) a great book choice for discussion, as the reviews and people reading it are ALL over the place.

I read it in one sitting, too, Karen, and now I'm ready to discuss. I think. I don't think I have ever changed my mind more about a book than this one, even as to the purpose of it. Or the theme. Or much of anything else?

We'll start on the 18th, which as Pat notes below, is actually tomorrow.   

For starters, we are going to follow Ella's inventive new ideas about this one and ALL be DL's for this one and ALL ask the questions.

So let's see what we can do with Ella's #1:

1. Does the title of the book have any meaning?  How does it relate to the book?

And I'll throw one in, too:

2. What is this book really about?

I personally can't answer either one of those and have been arguing with myself all day about #2. What do you think? 

OR if you don't like either of those, what do YOU want to say about the book? What struck you about it?

The floor is now open for your thoughts!

Everyone is welcome!

[PatH]

You're living in the future.  It'll be the 18th shortly.  See you in the morning.

[ginny]

😎


Well it fits the story, doesn't it? Old age.  No contacs for 6 weeks before hand so we can be blind as a bat in week 3 (our present week) before cataract surgery.   What fun! I was rather surprised to see 18 or what I thought was 18 on the post I made yesterday, and panicked a bit, but when i looked in this morning behold today looks lke 18.  Allllll rightie,  then. 

Perhaps I am living my own Groundhog Day movie? Hahaha

Since I'm here, I will go first.

 I personally felt the first half of the book was quite lovely. Sort of a reach out if you're lonely and do something about it and look at all the wonderful benefits. It was odd, though,  was it odd to anybody but me?   The bed thing.   Why the bed?   I wonder if the author's own writing in the dark, (he pulled a cap  over his head and typed in the dark),  made him think that there's more sharing of deep feeling and intimacy  and so forth by doing that in the dark and that's why she picked  the bed?

OR? 

I can't believe she missed Carl and sharing in the bed because Carl withdrew emotionally when his daughter died.  But maybe she did?

She said let's not care  what anybody else thinks. I love the freedom of that. But then....she did.

Lots of tantalizing questions, super choice, Ella. 

What do you all think?  Anyhing surprise you about the book?

[PatH]

Ella, you have a knack for picking good books for discussion.

Was anyone else struck by the tone of the writing?  To me it has an odd, misty dreamlike quality to it, which fits the story.

[Mkaren557]

I came to this book knowing nothing about it or about the author, although I had seen the movie version of Plainsong.  I usually skip over books that I deem "too short," but I really love this book club so I took a chance.  The book sat on my bedside table for a week or so and then last Thursday I began to read: 
          And then there was the day when Addie Moore made a call on Louis Waters.  It was an evening in May just before full
          dark.
I don't think I have ever felt more "welcomed" into a book.  It was clear that I was "dropping" into the middle of an on-going story.   "And then," in addition to giving me the clue that I was part of a conversation that had already been underway for a long time, but those words were the exact words a storyteller uses to show a shift of subject.  Now I was moving to the part about Addie Moore and Louis Waters.  I, the reader, was now being included in the narrative.  The time is evening and the month is May and it is just before "full dark."  The last two words gave me a sense of foreboding and a clue to what the title may mean - - not total understanding but a hint that "the end" is coming and not just the end of day.  Those words reminded me of the fears I used to feel as a little girl when I would wake up in the dark and rush to my father's side of the bed, sit on the floor and listen to him breathe.  There was no way I was going to stop reading now.
     At first I thought the book was about old age, particularly the loneliness of old age.  Then I thought about living in a small town, or the relationship between grown children and parents.  But mostly I got lost in the relationship between Addie and Louis.
 

   

[ginny]

Karen, I loved this:

I usually skip over books that I deem "too short," but I really love this book club so I took a chance.

We are so excited to see you say that! But why do you skip over books that are short?

I don't think I have ever felt more "welcomed" into a book.  It was clear that I was "dropping" into the middle of an on-going story.   "And then," in addition to giving me the clue that I was part of a conversation that had already been underway for a long time, but those words were the exact words a storyteller uses to show a shift of subject.

Good heavens, I missed that beginning entirely! The joy of discussing a book with somebody else. It DOES start with "and." And how clearly you've put the effect and then with the "night."

  The time is evening and the month is May and it is just before "full dark."  The last two words gave me a sense of foreboding and a clue to what the title may mean - - not total understanding but a hint that "the end" is coming and not just the end of day.

Well now that I've read THIS, I am wondering what the "end" is.

Is there a difference between our perceptions by night and by day? I've often noticed that something I'm worried to death over at night sort of disappears or at least is better with the light of day.


Pat: Was anyone else struck by the tone of the writing?  To me it has an odd, misty dreamlike quality to it, which fits the story.

No, once again the tone escaped me, but now that you mention it, I do see it in the long descriptive "and" passages.  I did notice the mechanics tho, which really stood out to me. For instance the conversations with no quotation marks, makes you read faster and faster, all that white space, the "let's not care what people think"   about punctuation?  sort of mirroring Addie's thoughts.

But THEN the "ands" start. Long paragraphs suddenly. And those ARE dreamlike in quality. Like a child describing something breathlessly "an then we took a walk, an' then we had a picnic, sandwiches an' chicken salad, an lemonade made from fresh lemons, an'  (it's hard to do, it looks easy but it's not, to write like that),  long happy dreamlike passages. Of happiness. They reminded me for some reason of some of the music in the Candy Crush games.Where the orchestra (and that's a real orchestra hired for that purpose) plays music you could swing your hands to and dance like the hills are alive sort of thing. Those instances I did notice and now that you mention it, they were dream like. I didn't get it in all the book, tho.

Why do you think he did a dreamy tone for the book?

When I saw the mechanical differences in the printed page I thought to myself, why, this man is a poet. Interesting that Louis wanted to be, too.

But there's something else that stood out for me the most. I'm waiting to see if anybody else noticed it or if I dreamed it in the night.

[Mkaren557]

I have been walking around my house asking myself, "Why do I skip short books?"  After I have recognized that one of my all-time favorite books is Cry, the Beloved Country (Alan Paton) for a lot of the same reasons that I like Our Souls.   The quality of the writing is exceptional.  Each paragraph, each sentence, tells me as someone else's six pages.  That being true I,  have to say I love "very big books". I think it is the complexity of these books: many plots with many characters,  development over time, twists and turns. My first contemporary "big book" (Also my first paperback)was Exodus which I was lost in for days and since then too many to list.  I keep telling myself to stop this avoidance of books because of size, which is the same as because of the cover.  I don't know what this says about me as a reader.  I used to blame this on not liking The Old Man and the Sea or The Pearl and generalizing this.  It no longer makes sense, and I have plans to  seek out more short books.  By the way, in all fairness to Hemingway and Steinbeck, I devoured  A Farewell to Arms and East of Eden.

Any recommendations?

 

[marcie]

Karen, I too felt I was coming into an ongoing story. We're meeting Addie and Louis later in life. I was thinking maybe I'll learn more about their early years but I'm learning about how they are now, after many years of living.

They way that Haruf tells the story made me feel it was natural, though admittedly odd, for Addie to ask if Louis would share her bed to talk. Pat, maybe that's part of the dreamlike quality you mention. This story is believable to me as a story. We're so gently placed in the world of Addie and the characters have such a genuine, honest quality that I trusted them and their choices.

Ginny, you ask about night versus day. Why didn't Addie just ask Louis to come over in the afternoons and talk? Talking at night in bed does seem more intimate than talking during the day. It seems like a step that a couple usually take after they know each other a while. Addie is skipping over the "getting to know you as a stranger" part. She's in her later years and time is precious. Both she and Louis seem willing to take a risk to share conversation, even just ordinary conversation, in an intimate setting. They are baring their souls/inner selves and the quiet of night time seems to me to be symbolically a more vulnerable time than the day to do that. They seem to be taking a risk to live fully without worrying about what others might think.

[JoanK]

 felt I did understand the night part. When  my husband died, suddenly and unexpectedly, the worst part was lying in bed and glancing over and seeing "he's not there! I'm alone." Being alone at other times didn't feel so alone-ish: it would often happen in the to-ing and fro-ing of our lives.

f course, it's unrealistic that anyone would try to start a relationship that way. But this isn't about that kind of realism.

the relationship did have a dreamlike quality: perhaps this might be a relationship a woman might dream about. Louis was too passive in  the relationship to be a real person: first the perfect companion, then the perfect "grandfather" to the perfect grandson (who gets the perfect dog).

The dog is the perfect dog, in spite of being imperfect (abnormal foot). Maybe there's a moral there.

[JoanK]

I've known many women Addie's age who had a "gentleman friend", with varied living arrangements. As far as I know, they didn't face the same reaction from neighbors. But I don't live in a small town. Was that realistic? I don't know about family members.

[JoanK]

Louis really only seemed real when we learned he had had an affair. Interesting that he did to Tamara (the other woman) exactly  what Addie later did to him: suddenly say "I can't do this any more. I have to think of the child," He acknowledges how much he hurt Tamara, but Addie never acknowledges how much she hurt him. I didn't like her very much when she called him up and said let's talk on the phone in secret.

Of course, the practical part of me said In the face of Addie's son's threats, why the heck didn't they just get married. Since the son was scared of losing his mother's money, Louis could have signed a "pre-nup" renouncing any money from her. they could have kept the same living arrangements: no law that a married couple has to live together.

[ginny]

Karen, I do have one, but it's a novella, but if you have not read (unlikely, I know because I know you are well read) The Palace Thief (a novella in a book of short stories with that title) by Ethan Canin, I would read it, because I personally would be interested in your perspectives on it.

It was made into a movie with a changed ending and title with Kevin Kline. I don't recommend the other stories, just that one.

[ginny]

That's a good point, in fact, several good points,  Marcie, about why they might have moved to the more intimate setting right away!  The dark seems a good time to spill secrets, sometimes like the Internet, where you can't see and be intimidated by the expressions on the faces of those listening.


Like you, I trusted the characters, but now that I've read Pat and JoanK, I am beginning to wonder if it actually was  all a dream? Or in fact partly a dream? Her dream? Which one is the more developed or real as a character? I see Joan K has taken this up...

Very thoughtful and excellent thoughts here!

[ginny]

Louis really only seemed real when we learned he had had an affair. Interesting that he did to Tamara (the other woman) exactly  what Addie later did to him:

JoanK, my goodness, you take my breath away.  Interesting? I'll say. Weren't Addie and Louis's wife friends? Do you think there's something more than an interesting coincidence here?

Oh i read that back over  and I see you are saying Louis is too perfect. I wonder. He certainly is described as perfect. I thought the bit about the dog was too pat, or you could say too perfect ....here comes little Jamie and they form a family . That's very sweet. But then perfect Louis goes out and gets a dog and I thought to myself this is just too much..... it's too pat, so now I'm wondering if that was just a dream? A wish fulfillment.   And Addie is the source of the narration. 

Of course, the practical part of me said In the face of Addie's son's threats, why the heck didn't they just get married.

Oh Addie answered that one, and that's one of the two things that stood out at me in the book.

She said that Jamie was the only person who loved her.

 She apparently felt that Gene would not allow her to see him.

 

[ginny]

Two great questions from Joan K here:

But I don't live in a small town. Was that realistic? I don't know about family members.

I don't know, what do you all think? A lot was said by the town who seemed to know by radar.

And then this one: He acknowledges how much he hurt Tamara, but Addie never acknowledges how much she hurt him. I didn't like her very much when she called him up and said let's talk on the phone in secret.

Now here we have several things.

What did you all think of Addie at the end? Do you admire her stance and her suggestion to talk on the phone? Do you feel sorry for her? Do you dislike her or like her more or?

And then there's Louis who said he felt worse about hurting his mistress than he did his wife..... Something about....here it is, page 42, tho it's not got the page number on it:

"But I think I regret hurting Tamara more than I do hurting my wife. I failed my spirit or something. I missed some kind of call to be something more than a mediocre high school English teacher in a little dirt blown town."

Failed your spirit?  I think/ hope before this is over we can discuss Mr. Louis and his failed spirit, maybe we can discuss both of the protagonists (is there a main one) and their characters.

SUPER start on a discussion!

[Jonathan]

I'm at a loss for words after reading the first three pages. The intense drama is overwhelming. Despite the gossipy first sentence. 'And here's something else I can tell you about Addie:'

And how can Louis allow her to walk off alone into the dark. Any decent guy would have walked her home. He has just heard how Addie feels about the nights. It was panic which brought her to his door.

'I'm talking about getting through the night....The nights are the worst. Don't you think....I end up taking pills to go to sleep and reading too late and then I feel groggy the next day. No use at all to myself or anybody else.'

'Help me through the night.' The dark night of Addie's soul. Be a knight about it, Louis. Here's your damsel in distress, coming to you in the twilight.

[ginny]

Oh well now it's perfect, THERE is Jonathan. I have missed you in our discussions and here we have a man's POV, and just LOOK at it:

And how can Louis allow her to walk off alone into the dark. Any decent guy would have walked her home. He has just heard how Addie feels about the nights. It was panic which brought her to his door.

Now there is a man's point of view, never occurred to me. The very thing Tomereader was searching for, for her own group's read.  I guess I was seeing her as brave, and you are seeing her panic and how she feels about the nights!!! 

"Decent" guy?  I will be on the edge of my seat to hear Jonathan's views on the characters in this one!


'Help me through the night.' The dark night of Addie's soul. Be a knight about it, Louis.

Wow. Wow wow wow. I will repeat my thoughts that Haruf is a poet but I never caught that allusion.  Welcome, welcome, Jonathan!

[ANNIE]

Last night, I spent a looooong time writing my initial post and lost it!!!! So, today, using my laptop computer, I will try to recall what I said!
First off, I had the same reaction that Jonathan had when Louis just watched Addie walk home in the dark.  Granted, it was a small town and probably safe but where are his manners.  Or was he just in shock over her idea?  Doesn't matter, he should have walked her home.
So, if Addie hadn't made her suggestion, we wouldn't have a book of a different way of living out one's end years to discuss.  Dreanlike?  Yes, but they did have a lot of fun in the ideal way.  Like Louis teaching Jamie how to play ball, then taking them all to a ball game, even elderly Ruth. And their camping trip was a learning experience for Jamie too.
I also liked Ruth's remarks to the cashier in the market and Louis's attack on one of the old guys who made the crack about his staying up all night at Addie's and then working all day in his yard.  When he tells Addie that night, he remarks that he doesn't want her hurt by anyone over what they are doing.  Its really no one's business, is it?  Are all small towns like this?  Seems like I have heard that they are.  Never lived in one this small.  As my daughter says, I am a big city gal.
So Addie ends their living arrangement so she won't lose Jamie's love. And then, although she wants it kept secret, she wants them to talk on the phone at night.  Hmmmm, will it really be the same?

[ginny]

Oh I'm sorry you had that experience! But you've made up for it this morning.

I got up thinking we must have 20 questions so far in this discussion but rather than me repeating them here I think it's better for us to read the posts and see the way they are expressed, as each person has done such a great job. I read one of them three times and got something different every time, so have changed a prior post, too.

The one question I got up with, is the dream like one. Who, after all, is telling this story? Whose point of view IS it? IS this one of those omniscient narrators? Clever, his telling it almost all in quotations, you'd think that would tell you right there, wouldn't you?

But then there are the dream like things. So whose dream is it? Do we ever, for instance, see any feelings not narrated? Is this narrator (is there one?) reliable?


That's what I got up with today, what do you think about any or all of the questions here? And now Ann has added some great ones!