Poll

What do you think happened to Edwin Drood?

Killed by Jasper
4 (36.4%)
Killed by Neville
0 (0%)
Killed by someone other than above
1 (9.1%)
Still alive
6 (54.5%)

Total Members Voted: 10

Author Topic: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online  (Read 68298 times)

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #80 on: August 27, 2009, 01:54:07 PM »
The Mystery of Edwin Drood - by Charles Dickens

Had Dickens lived to complete "The Mystery of Edwin Drood," his 15th novel would have been one of his major accomplishments, say many of his critics. The novel was scheduled to be published in twelve installments  from April 1870 to March 1871. Only six of the installments were completed before Dickens's death in 1870, which left the mystery half finished.

"The ideal mystery is one you would read if the end was missing," writes Richard Chandler, creator of Philip Marlowe. Reading and discussing an unfinished mystery is a unique experience, especially when shared with a group. Will we agree with the critics, or go mad trying to figure out what he intended for the young engaged couple introduced at the start of the book?  And what has become of young Edwin Drood? Help us track down clues as we read along ... and then we'll each propose our own ending during the last few days of the discussion.

Chapter discussion schedule
September 1-6: 1-6
September 7-13: 7-12
September 14-20: 13-18
September 21-27: 19-23

This unfinished mystery is available in several places on the Internet at no cost but you might want to purchase the book or borrow it from your library, in order to read one of the editions, such as the Penguin Classics, that has useful footnotes.

Questions for your consideration this week: Chapters 19-23

1.   Chapter 19--Shadow on the Sun-Dial--what is the significance of the title?

2.  What is Jasper willing to sacrifice for Rosa?  Were you surprised by his declaration of love?  Was Rosa?

3.  Chapter 20--A Flight.  Is it a good idea for Rosa to go to Mr. Grewgious?  Does he seem less "angular" and "dry" now that we've seen more of him?

4.  Chapter 21--A Recognition.  Mr Tartar has a history, it seems.  What do you think Dickens might have planned for him?  How old is he?

5.  Chapter 22--A Gritty State of Things Comes on.  Can you picture Tartar's home and the conversation between Rosa and Helena Landless?  Which parts of the description stand out?

6.  Why does Billickin object to signing the lease with her Christian name?

7.  Are the Billickin and Miss Twinkleton worthy opponents?

8.  Why does Miss Twinkleton expurgate all the love scenes when reading to Rosa?

9.  Chapter 23--The Dawn Again.  Did you notice the shift back to present tense early in the chapter?

10.  Why does the Princess Puffer follow Jasper from London to Cloisterham?


See the previous questions and related links.



Discussion Leaders: Deems, Marcie

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #81 on: August 27, 2009, 02:37:20 PM »
Those of you who watch BookTV have seen Politics and Prose. Their author discussions are always being broadcast on CSPAN. As the name suggests, they specialize in non-fiction, are THE place to go for anything political. But they have all kinds of books, book groups that read classic liturature, and have a nice cafe (from decades before the chains started doing it). It's a really nice bookstore -- I hope it never goes under.

The parking lot is a challange, though. Consult PATH for the tiny road where you can find parking (and where Pat and I used to get into trouble as kids). As PatH says, we grew up about four blocks away. Unfortunately, the bookstore wasn't there then.

mrssherlock

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #82 on: August 27, 2009, 06:56:47 PM »
PatH:  What a neat website!  Found sots of interesting books (!) to put on my library list.  Thanks
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #83 on: August 27, 2009, 08:16:49 PM »
Just what you need, right, Jackie?

mrssherlock

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #84 on: August 28, 2009, 12:55:01 PM »
\Well, I do get frantic at the thought of running out of books to read!
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #85 on: August 28, 2009, 07:41:16 PM »
Jackie: "frantic" is exactly the word!! I don't know what I think will happen, but the thought of facing a day without a book to read is horrible.

pedln

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #86 on: August 29, 2009, 03:50:24 PM »
That is a neat website, PatH.  Thanks for the info.  Looks like I can get there without the Beltway -- just Bradley to Connecticut.   :D

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #87 on: August 29, 2009, 07:24:39 PM »
My Mathew Pearl came, but not the Dickens. It had better hurry up, if I'm going to be ready Sept 1.

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #88 on: August 29, 2009, 07:31:34 PM »
Deems, how far should we read before the 1st?

Gumtree

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #89 on: August 29, 2009, 09:06:21 PM »
And that's my question exactly !
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

ANNIE

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #90 on: August 29, 2009, 09:52:48 PM »
I have the Penguin edition but am not looking forward to reading it.  I watched both of the old movies and found them horribly boring.  I sure hope that doesn't happen with the book.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #91 on: August 30, 2009, 03:06:40 PM »
The book is NOT boring, Ann! I'm sorry that the old movies were.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #92 on: August 30, 2009, 03:09:34 PM »
Here is a schedule for our discussion of the book:

Chapter discussion schedule:
September 1-6: 1-6
September 7-13: 7-12
September 14-20: 13-18
September 21-27: 19-23

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #93 on: August 30, 2009, 04:55:45 PM »
Thanks, Marcie.

ANNIE

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #94 on: August 30, 2009, 05:31:58 PM »
Thanks, Marcie.  I will send that list to myself.   ;)
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #95 on: August 31, 2009, 09:01:49 AM »
Annie, can you tell us something about the two films you saw based on this book?  How old were they?  I have to wonder how the screenwriters handled this unfinished novel?  Did they simply make up an ending?  I'd like to know who advised them as to where Dickens intended to take the story before he died?  

But never mind the ending - have you started to read the novel yet?  I admit to struggling with that first chapter - Difficult to get into, wasn't it?   Had no idea what was going on...until I read it a few times and  realized that I wasn't supposed to understand it yet!   Actually I didn't settle down into the story until the third chapter.  Thanks for the reading schedule, Marcie.


mrssherlock

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ To Start September 1
« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2009, 10:16:00 AM »
Joan:  I haven't started it yet so thanks for the heads up about the  first and second chapters.  Maybe I'd better start reading?
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

Gumtree

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2009, 10:48:27 AM »
Thanks for the reading schedule Marcie.

I agree with the assessment of the first couple of chapters - I nearly threw Drood at the wall shouting "will no one rid me of this Dreadful Dickens'  ;) but perseverance won the day. It gets better but I am not yet convinced.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2009, 12:31:55 PM »
Watch out, Gumtree!  The man you're paraphrasing got into a lot of trouble for that.

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2009, 08:02:38 PM »
Hello to all our cheerful and long-suffering Dickens' readers!!

Tomorrow is September 1 and the official beginning of our reading this last of Dickens' novels.  I'm struck, as I reread, by Chapter 1, as I was the first time.  It is a most unwelcoming opening and yet fascinating to me.

Can you figure out where we are in the first part, and what on earth are all those foreign things like elephants and spires doing in merrie olde England?

And who are these people?

The illustration that Marcie has included in the header is entitled "In the Court."  It is by Sir Samuel Luke Fildes who did the illustrations for the novel, and it accompanies Chapter One.  Let's look at it and see if we can determine who these people are.

Trumpets!!!  Chimes!!  We begin!!!

JoanK

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #100 on: August 31, 2009, 08:40:53 PM »
"will no one rid me of this Dreadful Dickens' "  :D

Sob. My book still hasn't come. I'm hopelessly behind before we even begin. If it doesn't come tomorrow, I'll try to get it from the library.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #101 on: August 31, 2009, 08:46:33 PM »
Joan, I'm sorry that your book hasn't arrived. An option would be to start reading the text (or listen to audio) online until you get your book. There are options at http://librivox.org/the-mystery-of-edwin-drood-by-charles-dickens/

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #102 on: August 31, 2009, 10:23:43 PM »
I had a lot of trouble not finding the Penguin edition, so gave up and today got it out of the library.  This is a big deal for me, as I am allergic to perfume, and all our library books are permeated with the same scent, which gives me breathing problems, but I'm able to read it at arm's length, and boy, am I hooked.  I've already read the first 2 chapters, and will have no trouble reading more promptly.  I'll save comments until tomorrow.

The minor advantage is that my book has an introduction by Michael Innes, plus the original illustrations by Fildes.  I haven't yet read the introduction--I don't like to be told what to think before I have a chance to think it--but Innes wrote a number of excellent detective stories with many literary references, and under his real name (J. I. M. Stewart) was a literature prof, so he probably has something useful to say.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #103 on: August 31, 2009, 10:57:30 PM »
That sounds like a useful edition of the book, PatH. I don't have allergies so I've not noticed the scent of books in our library. Is the scent of the books in your library the perfume used by your librarian?

pedln

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #104 on: September 01, 2009, 10:27:29 AM »
Well, I've started reading the novel online, but it is on my agenda that before I go to my Red Hat lunch to again hunt for a parking place at the university library to find a copy there.  (I think they have 3 or 4 metered places for visitors).  And I will look closely to see who has written the introduction and if notes are provided. (Michael Innes does sound familiar, PatH.)

Reading a novel on line is not my cup of tea. (Maybe I need to use the laptop and sit in the recliner with my feet up.)  My first reaction was like Gum's. That first chapter -- do I want to read a whole book of this?  But things are improving and I know the discussion will help.  I do need to find a larger copy of "In the Court" if we are to identify the people in it.

My thoughts right now are on the people who avidly bought up each chapter of Dickens' subscriptions.  What did they think after reading chapter one?

joangrimes

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #105 on: September 01, 2009, 11:03:05 AM »
I had not planned to read this book but when I found it was a free download to my Kindle I thought well why not at least try to read it.  So I now have it on my Kindle and will give it a try,

Joan Grimes
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marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #106 on: September 01, 2009, 11:23:14 AM »
Pedln, I don't have the Penguin edition either so will have to rely on others to share notes. We welcome people with any edition of the book.

JoanG, I'm very glad that were able to download the book to your Kindle and that you'll be joining us!

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #107 on: September 01, 2009, 11:44:04 AM »
Great, Joan!  How nice to see you here.

What an opening!  We start in a haze of opium-fueled weirdness, as an unnamed man is struggling back to reality in a sordid little opium den, presumably in London.  He comes to himself enough to pay and leave.  Later, we see a traveler, possibly the same man, hurry into a cathedral, pull on his robes, go in with the choir, and sit down just before the first words of the service thunder out.

It would be hard work reading a whole book written like that, but it's a great start.

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #108 on: September 01, 2009, 11:44:24 AM »
Good morning!  The Dawn - I heard the cymbals and the trumpets calling.  This must be the day~

It's so good to get started - hopefully to get a better understanding of the opening chapter.  Weren't you totally bewildered?  What is this talk of ten thousand dancing girls and  white elephants?  I read and reread the opening chapter and tried to make sense of it - until I realized that it was senseless - it was all a dream.  A drug-induced dream - so of course it didn't make sense!

Pedln, I too thought of the folks who had eagerly looked forward to Dickens' next novel, purchased the first installment of the Mystery of Edwin Drood  and were reading the same words that we are considering today.  The difference is - they were familiar with the drug - and its effects.  They knew what Dickens was writing about, the cravings for opium and the strange dreams of a different life from the drudgery of their own.  

There's an Appendix in the Penguin edition - Appendix 5 - that tells of this drug and its popularity in detail. The scene looks pretty sordid - the engraving in the heading tells it all - all those strange people in the bed.  In a bed!  It's not too difficult to pick out one of the characters that will play a part in Dickens' story.

Can't wait to hear your first thoughts when you read this chapter - aside from wanting to toss the book across the room! :D

PatH - we were posting at the same time.  No, I can't imagine reading a whole book like the opening chapter - as if reading through a cloud of opium!
I can't help but think of you, reading with watery eyes....do you think it's the fumes from library paste?  Or mold?  Have you thought of putting the book in a plastic bag to read it?

JoanG - please promise that you will not give up right away - tempting as it may be.  It does get better~   much better!

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #109 on: September 01, 2009, 11:49:22 AM »
The Order for Evening Prayer
Daily throughout the year

At the beginning of Evening Prayer the Minister shall read with a loud voice some one or more of these Sentences of the Scriptures that follow. And then he shall say that which is written after the said Sentences.

When the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Ezek. 18.27

http://www.cofe.anglican.org/worship/liturgy/bcp/texts/mpep/evening.html

PatH

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #110 on: September 01, 2009, 12:28:04 PM »
I look forward to reading that Appendix when I get my Penguin Book, and getting all those details, but no Sherlock Holmes fan needs an appendix to explain the first scene.  "The Man with the Twisted Lip" describes a similar, though slightly less sordid den, also with a lascar (a native East Indian sailor).

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #111 on: September 01, 2009, 12:36:38 PM »
Pat, Sherlock Holmes came to my mind also while reading some of the opium-related scenes.

Thanks for sharing the full quote about the wicked man.Tension is created by having a supposedly "good" man with an evil side that most people don't see.

mrssherlock

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #112 on: September 01, 2009, 01:18:47 PM »
Well, I've started; skipped the multi-page intro.  I am annoyed by all the numbered notes which would interrupt the flow of the tale if i stopped to look up each one so I try to ignore them.  The type is small and hard to read in bed; I either need glasses with a higher magnification or a brighter lamp or both.  Strange tale so far, I'm just starting Chapter 3. 
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #113 on: September 01, 2009, 01:45:17 PM »
Jackie, I too read through the first time without reading any notes. Can you use regular magnification glasses (with no prescription) for reading? The Dollar Tree stores have them for $1.00! Longs, Walmart, Walgreens, etc, carry them also.

marcie

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #114 on: September 01, 2009, 01:51:46 PM »
I'm keeping a list of the links that people submit as well as our questions as we go along. With your help, we'll have a "readers guide" completed at the end of our discussion.

See http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/readerguides/MysteryEdwinDrood_Dickens.html

JoanP

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #115 on: September 01, 2009, 04:21:29 PM »
You're right, PatH - the picture of the group on the bed in the sordid room tells it all.  They say one picture is worth a thousand words... Let me share something on landanum/opium from Appendix 5 found in the back of  the Penguin edition anyway.  I found it interesting, maybe you will too.

Quote
Opium  - from the white poppy, was called the "plant of joy" on account of its ability to relieve pain and effect a change of mood.

By the 16th century it was established in western Europe among a limited group of physicians and apothecaries - to alleviate pain.
Landanum was one of several opiate preparations dissolve in alcohol.

By the late 18th century its usage was no more remarkable than that of aspirin and other analgesics today.
No restrictions hampered its sale before 1868.  It was available from pharmacies, apothecaries, grocers and general dealers, all ow whom dispensed raw opium and landanum.

Among the numerous compounds for purchase without prescription were - Paragoric Elixir, a soothing or consoling camphorated tincture of opium...Godfrey's Cordial, a children's opiate administered to colicky infants...  I seem to remember the use of something called "Paragoric" - - before I had my own babies...a long time ago.  Do you? I don't think I knew it was opium though.

Few taking the drug regularly would bother to analyze the reasons behind their consumption.
The shift in attitude towards opium came in the period which Edwin Drood documents ...
To smoke opium as opposed to taking it orally was indeed less common.  For thoses who smoked opium a single non-medical motive sufficed: a pleasurable relief to which in some degree, they were addicted.
The drug produced an artificial state of pleasurable excitement.

There's more, but it is enough to conclude that the people in this awful room lying together on the four poster bed all had something in common - they were all addicts, seeking their own pleasurable dream-state.

mrssherlock

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #116 on: September 01, 2009, 05:55:57 PM »
I remember being given paregoric when I was a child.  This is what i found on Google:  http://www.soberrecovery.com/forums/what-recovery/68096-paragoric-anybody-remember.html

Castor oil was also given to me, in Coke or orange juice.  Don't know why, I've never had any digestive roblems that way.
Jackie
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. Edmund Burke

Deems

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #117 on: September 01, 2009, 09:50:44 PM »
Welcome, Joan Grimes--delighted to have you with us!  Please have any reaction you want and tell us.  We're interested in what everyone has to say here.

Has anyone thought about how Dickens' readers here in the States must have longed for the ship to arrive with the latest installments?  Reading aloud was evening entertainment for whole families--no worries about the material being "family friendly" here.  I suspect that the younger children would have nodded off after hearing Chapter 1, perhaps with visions of elephants, sultans, a Chinaman and a Lascar.  But said young child would have missed the opium dream completely--as I did upon first reading.  It took me a second reading to catch on.

If my hypothetical child had stayed awake until the end of the chapter,  perhaps she would have trembled when she heard the words about the "wicked man" at the end.

Joan P--Thanks so much for condensing some of the information on opium use in the 19th century for us!  Opium was widely available, in one form or another, including cough medicines for children.  It was an important drug in the days before antibiotics when all one could do with the seriously ill was to make them feel better, to ease their pain.

It seems though that John (Jack) Jasper's pain is more psychological than physical.  Did you all notice how he treated the other inhabitants of the shabby room in London?  He assumes that what the others say in their dreams is "unintelligible," concluding that people's dreams must somehow be aligned with their station in life, that educated folks will have one kind of dream, and poor sailors quite another.  And yet, if you think about it, the Chinaman may have been mumbling in Chinese.  Makes me wonder what Jasper's mumbling sounded like to others.

Thanks, Pat H, for the lines from the evening service.  Dickens' readers would surely have recognized the invocation from evening prayer, especially the English readers.  Nowadays we (I) need a footnote.  At any rate, the suggesting is that this man, the one whom we have followed from London, may in fact be a wicked man.  (I'm so sorry that your perfumed book gets to you.  Be careful to hold it well away!)

Marcie--thank you for making a separate page of links for a reader's guide, just the sort of preparation that I admire--and seldom think of doing.

Mrs. Sherlock--Good to hear that you have made it to Chapter 3.  There is a story here, after all.  Thank heaven it's not all an opium dream or we would all have to throw the book at a wall!  Don't let the notes bother you--they are not required and you can always read them later.  

Pedln and Joan K--I really hope that books make it to you, one way or another.  I don't like reading novels online either.  There's just something about turning pages and marking passages that I enjoy + the smell of paper (much better than perfume).

OK, folks, what are your first impressions of Jasper and the other clerics?  Actually I should simply say of Jasper and the clerics since he himself is not ordained.  He's the choir/ music director, but not a minister.  

And Edwin Drood?  Does he impress you?  Are you taken with this young man or with his slightly older uncle Jack?

Over to you, our night-tripping fairy Gum.  Expecting to see you've been here when I log in tomorrow.






  

Gumtree

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #118 on: September 02, 2009, 05:57:59 AM »
Couldn't get in yesterday - sorry.

I really do struggle with Dickens even though I love the 19th century literature. The first Chapter was enough to put me right off. Second reading helped and I could see the dream etc. and the scene was obviously that of an opium den - I'm speaking here from information gleaned from my reading rather than personal experience  :)

Quote
...they were all addicts, all seeking their own pleasurable dream state
I agree, perhaps they are also seeking escape from the realities of their individual lives.

The identity of the man is not immediately revealed - his superior attitude toward the other occupants of the bed was rather off-putting. Presumably he is the 'jaded traveller' and his arrival at evening service just in time suggests he knows himself to be a 'wicked man' - perhaps  wanting to give up his wicked ways or just hoping to save his soul alive.

I need to re-read the next couple of chapters before I can comment but one Dickensian thing that always gets my goat is his penchant for obvious nomenclature to describe the characters - Rosa Bud for the sweet young thing?  Landless, Sapsea, Honeythunder, Twinkleton - give me strength!

Does anyone know how long each instalment was in the serialised
publication?
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Gumtree

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Re: Mystery of Edwin Drood ~ Dickens ~ September Book Club Online
« Reply #119 on: September 02, 2009, 06:10:02 AM »
I've a mild interest in the coastal schooners and early steamships  on the West Aust coast -especially on the run from Fremantle to Singapore. Many of the seamen were Lascars - here's a link to Lascars working from the London docks.

http://www.lascars.co.uk/plafeb1931.html
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson