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Pick a Plot! Our newest game! Anybody can play.

Simply check out our Archives of Past Discussions.

Pose a challenge to the group by identifying a plot line or twist from the titles for identification. You need not have participated in our the former discussion to play. One clue a day will be added until the title is guessed.

The Winner of the Current Challenge gets to pose the next one OR we can have several running at one time, too. The more, the merrier.

New Contest (Hats):
1. A dignified death
2. A Schoolteacher helps a criminal change his way of thinking
3. Famous Afro-American author from Louisiana

Winner: Former Pick a Plot Contest:

Hats: Absalom, Absalom by William Faulkner

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Why the comments about voting for two different titles? What happens if someone votes for the same title twice? What if they only like one book?

Kleo

Any decent size library should have some of the information on the United Empire Loyalists. For all I know there is a web site. I have several books they put out that list eligible people and what criteria they use. It is a very popular Canadian ancestral organization.

Filled up another one with 1000+ posts, didn't we? Thanks Jane for directing us here.

I've just r/c The Devil in the White City. It's a National Bood award finalist that intertwines the true tale of two men-- the architect behind the 1893 World's Fair, in Chicago, and a cunning serial killer who used the World's Fair to lure his victims to his death. Its non-fiction. Has anyone read it yet?

Yes, I have read The Devil in the White City. Fascinating book. Great characters. I enjoyed learning about that period of time in Chicago and the construction of the World's Fair.

Kathy

Ella and Harriett led the discussion of this faciscinating book two or three years ago, here on SN. Everyone in the discussion loved it! There should be an archive! I have loaned mine out several times and no one was dissappointed. Do look up the archive as there are many links within posts and of course, links to pictures of the Columbian Exhibition and other stories in the header. Here's a link: Devil in the White City archive

ENJOY!!

Oh for heavens sakes Ann, where was I? I don't remember that. Thanks I'l check it out as I read.

I got it at the library book sale and i've just started it. It is different than the historical novels i'm used to reading of JM's. Has anybody read it? Of course, i hadn't read all of JM's books, what are there 996?

.......jean

where is everyon? I came in looking for book recommendations and found that no one is around and no one has been around for awhile. Hope someone will appear soon with the name of a good book to read or to tell us what is happening in your world.

I maybe off here any minute now as we are having storms with worse predicted. So I might have to unplug anytime now.

Joan Grimes

No one wanted to comment on International womans day well I did something about it today as I "finaly" joined the the International Red Hat society I had lunch with two of them and there was only 3 total, I make four and hope my friend Ruth will join to make 5 . The one Carolyn has a Georgia brough that I liked even over the phone and that southern hospitality plus they both have Irish blood . Lou lives on redfield and I live thee houses from redfield she is also from farmers so we all have some things in common.

I am also looking at First Robotics games which sounds interesting to me.

The gals at the red hats society have a special invitation to join Senior net so time will tell.

Ginger

Began to think there was something wrong w/ my SN, because people seemed to have disappeared over all, sev'l sites have been unusally "quiet." Glad to see you are there again.

Ginger, tell me about "red hats."......jean

I saw this title at a bookstore, and liked it. Of course, I had a rather different idea of the content because of the title.

As I began reading it, I was caught up in the questions I began to have. More and more, I wondered about the people and the situation. There were many references that had no explanations. I began to really enjoy the main characters, but felt as though a dark cloud was hanging over them.

As the story progressed, I became more and more intrigued and a bit frightened about the outcome of the people and the book. Eventually, the reader was let into the "secret." It is really rather frightening, and would like to hear other's thoughts about this book.

Mary Malins

have now I must do it because of health problems not being able to fly any more this may explain it better than I ever could:

"Ode to the Red Hat Society" by Sue Ellen Cooper

A Poet put it very well. She said when she was older, she would'nt be so meek and mild. She threatened to get bolder,

She'd put a red hat on her head and purple on her shoulder. she'd make her life a warmer place, her golden years much golder.

We read that poem all of us and gasp at what she was saying (on Senior net we read the book)

We do not need to sit and knit although we are all graying, we think about what we can do. Our plans we have been laying instead of working all the time we will be out there somewhere playing.

We take her colors to our hearts and then all go shopping for purple clothes and hats of red with with giant brims a floppying.

We are tired of working all the time and staying home mopping etc. We order pies, chocolate fudge and rich deserts with toppings

.

We crown ourselves as duchesses, countesses and queens and prove that dressing up is'nt just for halloween

We drape ourselves in jewels, feathers, boas, and sateen. We see ourselves on television and in magazines.

We laugh, we cry, we hug a lot and keep each other strong. When one goes out for fun the rest go along.

We gad about, lunch and munch in one big happy throng.

We've found the place where we fit in, the place we belong.

Hows that Jean for someone who loves people but that cannot fly to the International senior net gatherings any more for health reasons, life goes on and we adjust or give up but give up, "Not me"

hehehe Life is a bowl of cherries but some times we forget about the pits.

A S/N friend, Ginger

The title "Never Let Me Go" has caught my attension now that you have mentioned it as as my tear ducts leak alot lately it seems for no reason. I just may look for the book.

Who is the author?

Ginger

I attend the mystery,books in movies, sci fi and book exchange discussions so anything that I put in there is redundant. I have discovered a good historical writer though and I enjoy her novels very much.

Philippa Gregory has her PHD in English history and literature and so her novels of what ever period she chooses to write about are well researched and authentic in general as to English history. THE OTHER BOLEYN GIRL was my introduction to her work and I've read two more since, that are less historical, although the setting is and more into story telling about a given group of characters. The ones I read were all in the first person, the characters well rounded and convincing to me so that I could identify. .

So how's that for a review. . .they are long up to 700 pages or more so plan to read in bits and snatches. the kind of book you grow used to having around and miss it when you're thru. . .Claire

and love the concept. I've heard the phrase "red hat clubs" but i wasn't sure what "international" meant. I guess it just means there are "mature" women everywhere who think it's time to HAVE SOME FUN!....JEAN

I love the concept of the Red Hat Society.. However when I tried to get in touch with the local chapter by email.. I never ever heard another word. Many of the clubs are specific to neighborhoods or small groups of old friends, so since we have moved too much and really do not know anyone locally, I assume I will not be a red hat.. Shame really. I have a new Anne Tyler... The Accidental Marriage ( Perhaps,, I know it is something marriage) I will take it with me when we go to Italy next week. I figure to take a lot of books, since I know how tired I get during the day and so we eat lightly at night and retire to the room..

"Never Let Me Go" is the new book by Kazuo Ishiguro. We read his book "Remains of the Day." We had 2 discussions -- one for the book and one for the movie. Remains of the Day

I also love hearing more about the Red Hat Society. They members wear red hats when they go out together!
I haven't tried to join, but maybe someday ...

I heard that up to a certain age the members wear some pink, then when you get to be 60 or 65,
you dress mostly in purple. I'm there now! But I haven't found a chapter to join!
They all look so cute at restaurants, having a real good time!
I wonder if most of the members read books, too ...

Titled, "Middlesex", its by Jeffrey Eugenides, who also wrote "The Virgin Suicides". Most of you are probably familiar with this book which won the Pulitizer in 2002 and was discussed back then right here in the B&L folder. Its a good read!

US-World News

Another article from the same magazine. What Readers Want

Yes, it was a good discussion.

"Middlesex ~ Jeffrey Eugenides ~ 8/03"

Andy--I've started Arthur and George. Got it the day Susan had lasick and haven't read it since then, but I like it as far as I got and will finish it. Knowing you are reading it is an extra incentive.

just picked it up at the library . . .well into it but eyes are bothering me. As usual it's a very good read. . .keeps my attentionand I like legal thrillers since she has been a lawyer herself it's her baliwick. . . claire

Just happened by after a long time and saw the post about Anne Tyler. Her last book was The Amateur Marriage, published in 2004, and we discussed it here. The discussion is in the Archives.

I went down to the new library on the Unitech Campus and I was not that impressed. There is hardly any parking near the library and the stairs are very long - the longest I have seen in any library. The stairs are in the middle of the first floor and the lift is right down the other end of the very huge first floor. I do not think it is very suitable at all for people who have mobility problems.

The library I posted pictures of here in Photos is a much more child and elder friendly design. Ruth agreed with me. One thing the new library has is a full cafe attached. I think a lot of people will enjoy that convenience. Its a large very smart cafe.

I forgot my camera but it would have been too vast a building for me to get good shots with the range of my camera.

Unitech and the city shared the cost of the library construction and its jointly owned by both institutions.

Carolyn

You will find the archived discussion of Amateur Marriage HERE.

a friend loaned it to me and i read about 1/3 of it and it just isn't grabbing me. I'll go read the archives, maybe i'm missing something...jean

My buddy! I am delighted you too are reading Arthur and George. It caught my eye. I will be emailing you.

Hugs to Susan-

Alf and other Florida people. Heard from National Geographic, that the head of Archeology for Egypt.. ( the publicity type who is always in the center of all pictures) is giving a lecture in Ft. Lauderdale and then a tour of the Tut exhibit there. 65.00 a person. Should be interesting, but we will be gone at the time.

the day after watching the conclusion, I rushed out to have my lawyer draw up a new will for me. He had a distraught look. You're the tenth guy in here today wanting a will. What's going on? Haven't you been watching Bleak House, I asked him. I saw the light go on for him...

Red Hatters

CONNECTING IN NEW ZEALAND

It is always fun to hear of connections being made among Red Hatters from all over the globe! Here are a few examples of some of our 44 (!) New Zealand chapters connecting with Red Hatters from hither and yon:

Early this year, the Hibiscus Red Hatters and the Rangitoto Reds, both of Auckland joined the Waitakere Ferns (Waitakere City) to welcome Queen Marge Holmberg (Hawaiian Diamonds, Kailua-Kona, Hawaii) and chat over lunch.

When a large cruise ship docked in Dunedin (on the South Island) the Dunedin Red Revellers connected with Red Hatters from places such as Sydney, Australia, one of the Carolinas, and the UK.

The Elegant Roses of Wanganui enjoyed a visit with a Red Hat Society Queen (traveling with her daughter) from Bristol, England.

We hope that those of you who travel will remember to take advantage of the chance to meet Red Hatters from other states, provinces or countries. This is an excellent way to enhance your travel experiences. And you might wind up with a great (email) pen pal or get the chance to play hostess when a Red Hatter from distant parts comes to your town!

SHARING THE PAST

Speaking of New Zealand, the Strawberry Tarts, in Tasman, came up with a cute idea for a chapter activity. Each chapterette was asked to bring a favorite record from her past, along with a photo of herself as she looked during the era of that song’s popularity. Each song was played and memories were shared as the photographs were enjoyed. Fun!

There are very few things in life that are not enhanced by sharing with friends!

All you ever need to know about the Red Hat Society click here

Ginger who had a great time with the RHers St. Pats corned beef and cabbage luncheon with them.

Ginger I live in Waitakere City. If there is a Red Hat society out here like everything else its bound to be cliquey. I had never heard of it and its never been reported about in the local paper.

Carolyn

Carolyn, I don't think Red Hatters would be clicky, tho they might have a limit on the size of their chapters. The National organization charges a flat chapter fee for up to 20 members, and then more for additional members. Our group has annual dues of $20 a year to cover the membership fee and automobile mileage for the drivers of out-of-town trips. Why don't you and some friends start your own group -- that's how we got started -- with just a nucleus of about 5 or 6, that grew like Topsy. I knew very few of the others in the beginning.

If any of you Red Hatters out there are coming to the National Convention in St. Louis this June, plan to come on down to Cape Girardeau for a visit too.

New book recommendation -- my daughter Judy and her friend Liz just left after a too-short visit. Liz was totally engrossed (and finished) Maps for Lost Lovers by Nadeem Aslam, a Pakistani living in England. It's about estrangement and isolation of people in a Pakistani community in England. Liz couldn't leave it with me because it was a library book, but she did leave her recommendation.

Jonathan, are you watching Bleak HOuse? I missed the TV performances so ordered the DVDs which came today. I watched Episode 1 this morning! (I never watch other than news during the day). It was all I could do not to spend the whole day watching all the episodes.

The girls returned the copy of THe Dante Club that I lent them two years ago, so I can reread it before co-leading the April discussion of our local mystery club. When is Matthew Pearl's new book coming out?

Pedln, Matthew Pearl's new book - The Poe Shadow, (or is it The Shadow of Poe?) will be published in May...we're going to discuss it with him here in SeniorNet in September.

A couple of my friends are Red Hatters here (in Perth, WA). If ever I get enough free time I might join them - they seem to have fun together. Occasionally there is a short piece in the press about them, usually when a leader from an overseas Chapter is visiting here.

Can anyone tell me who wrote 'The Four Feathers' The film remake was on here yesterday but for the life of me I can't think who wrote the story. The feathers are the white feathers sent to an officer when he resigns his commission after his regiment is ordered to war in the Sudan. A good tale but who wrote the original?

JoanP, I am excited about "The Poe Shadow." Are we going to read Poe stories too?

Ginger, I am glad you are enjoying The Red Hat Ladies.

Deems, I have just seen Ben and Kemper. They are adorable!! I bet Ben and Kemper Elizabeth keep you hopping!

It was my understanding that when we read The Poe Shadow, we will also read some of Poe's work as well..

Oh, that will just add the icing on the cake.

Gee I don't understand that you have never heard of the Waitakere Ferns.

Gumtree, the author of Four Feathers, according to Amazon, is A.E.W. Mason. I'm not familiar with him, but he seems to be fairly prolific. Looks like there are about three versions of the film, 1939, 1979, and 2002.

A very gray day here. We have been having so many thunderstorms here, and a tornado struck last night about an hour north of here -- killing 2, and injuring about 10.

Pedln,

I have heard about those horrible tornados on the news. Keep safe.

Ginger I have lived here for 30yrs and to date have never heard of the Red Hat Society until I read about it in Senior Net a couple of years ago.

Carolyn

Carolyn, maybe you haven't heard of it because youmight be a pink hatter, not a red hatter? Or a recent red hatter?

www.redhatsociety.com

Kleo

Carolyn, perhaps you missed reading the poem which seems to have been the genesis of the Red Hat Society phenomen. Here is a site which includes the poem; its universal appeal will be evident toyou I'm sure.

Dp you think that Matthew Pearle's book will reach a stumbling block due to the law suit (injunctions) facing him at this time?

What lawsuit, what injunctions? I couldn't find anything on line about it, please elaborate.

Kleo

carolyn, I forgot to include the site. Sorry. Here it is:

http://www.wheniamanoldwoman.com/pages/348544/index.htm

Pedln - thanks for the info on Mason - never heard of him myself, the Cambridge Guide says he was Alfred Edward Woodley Mason 1845-1948 actor turned novelist who wrote popular historical novels incl Four Feathers in 1902. He also wrote detective novels and created 'Inspector Hanaud of the Surete' who featured in at least 4 novels from 1910-1929. The film shown the other night was the 2002 version (Heath Ledger) - I remember the 1939 one but not the other. I wonder if Hanaud was a starting point for Inspector Cloiseau of the Pink Panther?

Hope you have no more severe weather.

ALF, it is Dan Brown, author of the Da Vinci Code, who is facing accusations in Britain (I think) about source material. But the accuser appears to be backig down.

Ah, that one I've heard of Traude, and there was testimony in the papers the day before ALF posted. Catholic-bashing is so systemic in American culture, especially literature and films, it seems it would be hard to prove theft of an idea that common. Have you read any of the testimony? It did not seem from what I read that the accuser was backing down, so much as admitting that many of the ideas were, indeed, as common as dirt.

Kleo

Yes, KLEO, Dan Brown has been accused of using material someone else published 10 years ago (about Jesus being married to Mary Magdalene), in other words plagiarism. He is in London where an investigation began today.
A year ago he faced a similar allegation, but nothing further was heard about it.

There is some concern that whatever takes place in London may adversely affect the movie, due out in May, and the expected huge revenues.

Once you are popular, the lawsuits begin. I know that Rowling has been involved in several.The number of people who really seem to believe that they thought of Harry first is remarkable. The idea of Mary Magdalene and Jesus being married is actually quite old. So plagarism should not enter in.

STEPHANIE, you are quite right. What the lawsuit is about, it seems, is copyright infringement - NOT plagiarism, as I mistakenly said. Mea culpa.

Yes, Stephanie, as Traude points out the lawsuit is not about plagiarism. However, just because the idea is quite old, although I said the same thing, doesn't really mean there is no lawsuit. There has to be more substance to the accusation than simply the underlying idea of the book, I would think, and I suspect there is. Probably one would have to read more than I have to dismiss the whole idea of a lawsuit.

Kleo

You had me going about Matthew Pearl, gals! The decision in Dan Brown's case should come in sometime next week, I believe.

Came in this morning to let you know there's been a development in the Great Books vote - hope you will be good sports and vote one more time - please?

I know you've been waiting for the results of the vote. You'd think there would be a clear winner with 76 votes cast. (This was an all-time record.) Please understand that we struggled to interpret the results. Here's why:

We believe it is the recent popularity of the Masterpiece Theatre production of Dicken's Bleak House that made it a heavy favorite in the SECOND CHOICE vote. However, it did not win the FIRST CHOICE vote - and that vote was really too close to call.

We were uncomfortable choosing BLEAK HOUSE on the basis of that second choice vote over other titles that received more first place votes. Some of you had earlier voiced concern that the element of suspense would be missing for those who had recently seen the PBS production, which may explain fewer first choice votes for this title.

Will you be a good sport, please, and vote just ONE more time - for ONE title? We promise to go with the winner, even if it is just by one vote! And if there is another tie, we'll do both!

We're right here - waiting for you! ---Great Books Upcoming

I think I saw the author's name in here, but i'm not positive. I'm liking the story, but the technique of having each chapter focusing on a character is uncomfortable somehow. I'm going to check to see if you have her in any past discussions. I'd like to see some other opinions......jean

what the h**&%# was I thinking when I said Matthew Perle? I apologize for my egregious error. Joan do NOT tell Matthew about this faux pas.

I am SO enjoying the Devil in the White City. I wish that i had read it with our group.

Oh, and Joan, while you're not telling people, don't tell folks that I was sitting at the computer reading ALF's post and the testimony from the Dan Brown trial in the newspaper at the same time, when I did a quick search on Pearl and posted my question to ALF.

Kleo

I knew that you would love that book. Wish you had been part of the discussion,too.

For some reason I remember that Leon Uris was involved in a long long lawsuit in London about one of his books. I think that almost every author who has a fantastically popular book ends up being sued by someone who wrote something similar. Dan Brown struck just the right note in DaVince Code and that is hard to do with that sort of material. I believe the people suing him are dreamers..

I don't know, Stephanie, without giving the lawsuit a listen, and the plaintiff's book a read, next to Dan Brown's how could you know they are merely dreamers?

Kleo

I never expected to do that. I'm such an 'I've got to have a book in my hands' kind of person. I got there by chance. The name of the historian Mary Beard came up in "The Story of Civilization" discussion. I went looking for her bio, found a really nice one, but also saw she and her husband had written a "HIstory of the United States," in the 1920's. When i looked for it, it is out of print and copyright, but is on something called "Project Gutenberg." I haven't gotten much info about the site yet, (i started reading the book immediately) but apparently they are putting full text on line.....fun, fun, fun....don't you love the name? Here's the link to the site i'm reading. From there you can get to others.

http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=202739&pageno=16

I see Joan has been able to get my picture up, thanks. I'm sorry it's a formal shot, but I am the picture-taker in my family, so of course, there are the fewest pictures of me in the albums

This was my most recent picture, it's from when they took pictures for the church directory......jean

so I dug out an easy knitting project and am multi-tasking: reading my book, listening to quiet music and knitting...have any of you read a book on-line?......jean

jean, I've never figured out how to read and knit at the same time. That'd surely work. I've tried books on tape, but I always find that I want to go back to reread a sentence or paragraph, and that's just too hard with the audiobooks.

I have never read a book online. I always give up by the second paragraph.

Yes I read quite a few books on line and took with me 20 such books while traveling last summer. It just requires to get used to it. I liked the possibility of making the fonts bigger at night when my eyes were tired. Bubble

P.S. on line, I meant on a screen. I can read them on my computer, or on a palm device I have.

Bubble,

I will have to try it.

But it has to be a good book that urges you on. I am not sure I could read Pamuk like that: to much stopping and going back to search for a forgotten detail.

Never in a million years, not Pamuk.

Kleo, I read several reviews of their book, which seems to be purported to be a scholarly study of Mary Magdalena and the marriage. I admit to not reading the book, but after the reviews, did not want to wade through anything that seem to really hit the reviewers as that bad. I like The Davinci code.. It read like his other books in style,,so I suspect from the little I can obtain on the trial, that it simply is not apples to apples. I did read the one trial of JK Rowling and that person was simply nuts. She had written a book about a little boy who became a witch,, no comparison to Harry at all. For the most part, I really do not feel that people who decide that someone has stolen their ideas for books have any idea about what they are saying. I owned a used book store for years and worked in a library before that and it is amazing what happens to a best selling author.

One thing that can happen to a best-selling author is they get caught up in their own fame. One of the writers my mom reads, a woman who writes romance novels, did get found guilty of plagiarizing another's work and admitted she did--this is not the only recent case of this sort. Authors do steal ideas for books all the time--it's a time honored tradition.

Someone mentioned the case is going to court a number of years after Brown's book came out, but when was the case first filed? And did the plaintiffs seek non-judicial relief first?

I would just rather, in a court case, look at what is being sued for and then make a decision. I prefer this to picking my favorite. Because, sometimes the plaintiff, and sometimes the defendant is in the right--that's what they went to court for. If they're just a kook, the case often won't make it fully to court as this case has.

Otherwise we wind up with half-told stories. Like many folk on SeniorNet did not know the background to the Islamic comics and formed opinions based on part of the story. I just read another column which said radical Muslims are just seeking attention protesting the comics, the author did not know they had been sought for that very reason by the Danish paper. Like the McDonalds' coffee story in which some poor senior women is demonized for ages for trying to make a quick buck while no one bothers to note that part of the lawsuit was about the hot coffee, and another part about McDonalds' failure to help or her treat her like a human being once she was burned. McDonalds has the money to make certain their side of the story (oh, she's trying to get rich quick) is the one people are familiar with. I like to hesitate before I demonize people, the ones suing Dan Brown for instance.

I haven't read their lawsuit, so I don't know what they're suing for. But just because one is a scholary work and the other fiction, does not mean that one author can take from another without permission and without credit.

Just because Dan Brown is rich and famous, doesn't mean he's right. Or wrong.

There are transcripts from the trial available, although we will find out soon enough.

Famous plagiarists: George Harrisono for "My Sweet Lord," Alex Haley admitted he plagiarized parts of Roots from another author and settled out of court, Jayson Blair of the New York Times plagiarized from one of my favorite local papers, my favorite silent film, Nosferatu is a plagiarization of Bram Stoker's Dracula, unauthorized.

Dan Brown is listed as one of the authors some group called the Forensic Linguistic Institute has found "that 'evidence of infringement is overwhelming' after a lengthy list of alleged similarities between the works," of author Lewis Purdue and Dan Brown. However, I don't know anything about the group, maybe it's a Catholic response to Brown's Catholic bashing and is simply writing fiction about Brown. Again, as you rightly point out, rich folks make big targets.

But the rich and famous do commit crimes, even folks I admire commit crimes, like the producers and directors of Nosferatu.

Kleo

Was it Janet Daily who "cut and pasted" Nora Roberts? Dangerous as many who read one read the other.

Kleo

Dan Brown, author of the spectacular bestseller "The Da Vinci Code", returned to the witness stand yesterday and acknowledged "reworking" passages from the earlier 1982 nonfiction book "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" by Michael Balgent, Henry Lincoln, Richard Leigh.

Brown admitted that that was one of the books he and his wife, Blythe Brown, had researched for "The Da Vinci Code". (A day earlier he had said emphatically that she would not testify.)
It should be noted that the suit is not against Brown but against his publisher, Random House, also the publisher of "Holy Blood, Holy Grail". Both books explore theories -- totally dismissed by theologians -- that Jesus married Mary Magdalene, that they had a son, and that the bloodline survives.

The lawyer for the plaintiffs yesterday cited passages from "Holy Blood, Holy Grail" that, he said, had near equivalents in "The Da Vici Code". Brown, appearing frustrated, disagreed, saying
"These are points of history that were available in a lot of other books we were using." adding 'The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail' purports to be nonfiction; 'The Da Vinci Code' is a thriller. I thought the latter was a romping piece of good fiction. Like any thriller, no doubt it took ideas from any number of sources."

Now then, if Balgent and Leigh secure an injunction to bar the use of their material, they could hold up the scheduled May 19 film release of "The Da Vinci Code" starring Tom Hanks and Audrey Tautou.

To be continued.

Thanks, Traudee!

...at least it isn't our Matthew Pearl in this pickle!

Lovely picture, Jean! Just lovely. I know what you mean about not having photos of yourself. I'm the photographer here too - same situation.

Would love to see pictures of the resto of you - match faces to voices in discussion! We're trying to get as many as possible up for our 10th anniversary celebration this year. Can you look for one of yourseld and then we can talk about what to do with it?

Hats--I've been away during Spring Break and am catching up around here. Thank you for noticing Ben and Kemper E. They are in the picture because I don't wear makeup and I wanted to decorate it somehow (or distract people from my photo).

They are a handful. Ben belongs to my daughter, but he and Kemper are full brother and sister. Same mother and father, two different litters, one year apart.

And they are darling---and very photogenic.

Maryal

Thanks, Traude for taking the time to find some facts in the case.

I, too, am glad it is not Pearl--isn't he the Poe guy? I couldn't bear it!

Kleo

Deems,

No wonder Ben and Kemper look so much alike. They are cute. I hope you had a wonderful time on Spring Break.

Mabel,

I love your photo too.

See how bad rumors are started! I'm sorry Matthew. Mea Culpa.

Watch for Bubble in the slide show.

Great photo Bubble. Thanks Pat.

I just wanted to mention to Mabel that I did not ever receive a photo from her. Pat West used the one that Mabel sent to Marni and put it in the side show. So a big thanks to Pat for that one too and to Marni. It is a very good photo Mabel.

Joan Grimes

I just clicked on the Book Family link in the heading. I like that all the pictures are laid out on one page. The slide show is fun and I like seeing all of us together also.

We are a great looking group of people.

the mother - dgt ones, the wife - husband ones, the sister ones, the "mothers" and animal ones, the "adverturer" ones, the friends ones and the just plain "one of the discussion group" ones. What a fun idea, thanks to whomever tho't that up......jean

Now I long to see those that are missing... Bubble

Isn't it fun, Bubble? We've been celebrating our birthday in the fall...and hope to have a lot of your photos up for the "party." Hopefully everyone will get into the spirit and look around for a picture to share.

We're also getting up a Memory Book...

What was your first Book Discussion with us? Your best or funniest memory. We love to hear of first experiences!

I love the new pictures. Keep 'em coming.

Ray Bradbury fans -- here's one for you --- from today's NYT

Torching the Library

And you lucky New Yorkers can see it live in a theatre near you. Bradbury is 85 years old, writes daily, and is working on three new novels. He has some interesting thoughts about the Middle East and about out education system.

pedin: I enjoyed the Bradbury article. Thanks!

Thanks pedln- how sad that history repeats itself.

Maybe I should check out the old '451' from the library. I don't remember ever seeing it. I like his solution to the world's present problems in the ME. And, he says, he's not kidding! Hmmmmmm!

Story of Civilization and John Adams, etc.and am astonished at how many discussion leaders there are and they are from everywhere. I hope someone is working on an historical synopsis of how SN got started. I'm wondering how everything got started, how discussion leaders got drawn in, how categories were decided upon, how it got from "computers" to all the different discussion categories, did it just evolve, or was there a 'sit-down' by some people who said let's take this to another level, etc.. .......jean

This isn't really about books although I did just get home from Border's (educators' week, 25 % off books and most everything else except DVDs which are only 20% off).

Listening to public radio on my drive home, I heard about a new, not released yet movie, Snakes on Planes. It was really funny. Apparently there are already people out on the internet who have made (fake) trailers for this movie, and there's even a song that someone wrote on his lunch break.

Seriously, though, what could be better than a movie that puts two major fear factors in the title?

SNAKES on PLANES

WOOOO HOOOO

Maryal

I messed up the title of that movie, not yet released. It's

Snakes on a Plane

I'll bet you all feel better now. Heh.

mabel1015j, what a timely question about the beginnings of the SeniorNet web site! It's actually the SeniorNet organization's 20th anniversary this year and the 10th anniversary of our web site. The Books volunteers are asking for memories of how everyone got started here and anecdotes you remember from your participation in various discussions.

We're going to be doing a chronology of SeniorNet also and asking for site-wide input from all of our SeniorNet community members.

... are just plain wrong.

Kleo

What a great treatment for the phobiacs of the world.
It always amazes me HOW you come up with these things.

Andy--Snakes on a Plane has already be nominated as worst film of the year, 2006!

And there aren't even any trailers yet!

I did see a clip on the internet of Ellen's interview with Samuel L. Jackson, just the end of it where she asks him about his forthcoming movie.

I think the whole thing is a hoot.

TITLED, "THE CIRCUS IN WINTER". I FOUND IT FRACTURED BUT WORTH PURSUING TO THE END. I MADE MYSELF FINISH IT AS I HAVE BEEN REMISS IN THAT GROUP IN THE LAST THREE MONTHS. THE LAST BOOK CHOSEN WAS "STIFF" AND ITS FUNNY ONLY IF YOU AREN'T GIVING YOUR BODY PARTS TO SCIENCE.

My book group is reading "Undaunted Courage" by Stephen Ambrose. Quite a historical eye-opener. And, if you try to "see" the Lewis & Clark expedition through their eyes, you can almost walk the streams and discover new animals yourself!

Nancy

NANCY: In 1998 we had a discussion of Undaunted Courage. Click on the title if you want to go to the archived discussion.

Ann,

Are we having a discussion of "Undaunted Courage" in August, 2006? I am looking forward to the discussion.

Hi Aberlaine,

Thank you for telling how much you are enjoying "Undaunted Courage." I love reading about nature.

We are having a discussion about the Lewis&Clark expedition and according to my memory, it is "Undaunted Courage". Hmmmmm, why are we discussing it again?

Yes, we are discussing it again in honor of the celebration of Lewis&Clark expedition's 200th anniversary. I have been looking for books on L&C at my library and found a cookbook, for heaven's sake! I have reserved it just for perusing. Anyway, its is in August and Harold will once again be leading it.

Oh, that's great news. I am so excited! Finally, I will learn all about the Lewis and Clark expedition.

L&C is very big here in Oregon. Fort Classop has just been restored after a fire last October. As they explorers journey across the nation, perhaps we bookies can upload pix of the sites.

Mrs. Sherlock,

That would add a wonderful touch.

Watch for Judy Shernock on the slide show. -- and on the Book Family.

Isn't Ambrose one of the famous writers also accused of plagiarism? Something to do with footnotes?

Isn't Ambrose due out with a (posthumous) book for young readers on the Lewis and Clark expedition? When will that be released?

I loved the PBS series on L&C, the bit of it I saw. Did anyone see the whole thing?

A local paper had 4 of the passages that Dan Brown is accused of plagiarizing from the earlier nonfiction work. If I had turned those same passages in on a paper to a professor at Cal as my own writing I would have received an F for the class, a visit to the student misconduct office, and a permanent note with my transcript.

However, the passages I saw quoted were examples, imo, of simple plagiarism, and I thought the lawsuit was about the copying of the basic plot of the book, not simple plagiarism. So this brief look in the local paper was not enlightening.

The trial, imo, is turning out to be an interesting example of the need for authors to create these interesting personnas in order to sell books. Or maybe it's the readers' desire to believe these authors to be fantastical persons along with reading the book. Can't the book just be a good read? Why do writers have to be interesting humans?

Conspiracy theories, though.... I shop at BN brick and mortars because I get a discount there. I've noticed lately that every BN I shop at has at least 2 shelves devoted to the Masons and conspiracy theories about them. Even if their entire world history section at the store is only 10 shelves, 2 are devoted to Masonic conspiracy theories. I assume this points to a BN Board of Director's interest in Masonic conspiracy theories. Maybe it's just Bay Area, not nationwide.

I don't think humans are all that good at keeping secrets.

Kleo

KleoP, in B&N they have a book by David Shugarts saying that he knows all about Dan Brown's next book. It will be a sequel to the Davinci Code and he thinks that the book will deal with the FreeMasons in USA. That may explain all those books who want to ride on the success of the DVC.

The book is called Secrets of the Widow's son.

Oh, I had not thought of that, Bubble, simply a prelude to the next big conspiracy theory based on the current best seller. Here I was thinking conspirators, and I should have been saying, "Show me the money!"

Thanks!

Kleo

Marjorie, thanks for the link to the "old" discussion. I just might be back for the new one as well.

Hats,another book we read that we enjoyed quite a bit was "A Walk in the Woods" by Bill Bryson. Since I'm a former hiker, his story of hiking the Adirondack Trail was close to my heart.

Kleo, I taped the PBS series and have yet to watch it. I'm not sure if I want to wait until I finish the book or not.

Nancy

Nancy,

Thank you for another recommendation. I will put it on my library list.

NANCY: You are correct. We discussed A Walk in the Woods in 1999. Click on the link to see the archived discussion.

JUDY SHERNOCK: You are all bundled up in your picture and the sun is glaring in your eyes. Where was the picture taken?

Hi Marjorie,

I was in Northern CA. , on the coast near Mendocino overlooking the Pacific Ocean. We were taking some friends from Missouri to places off the beaten track, places that tourists usually never see when they come to CA. It was June but it was freezing and foggy there.

Judy

JUDY SHERNOCK: Small world! I live in San Jose.

Small world, Marjorie. For years I had a Japanese friend and penpal in San Jose. She was my nurse way back when I had surgeries in San Francisco. She moved elsewhere about two years ago to get married and since then I lost all traces of her Bubble

Come join us May lst for a new, a better, an excellent biography of George Washington. If you haven't thought of him for awhile this will open your eyes to the begiinning of our country and how easily we could be British subjects today or part of the Commonwealth.

Did you ever wonder why there are no words on the Washington Monument on the Mall in the Capitol?

Did you ever wonder how the man became the father of our country? Survived the tragedies and the defeats suffered in the early days of the revolution? Became the father of the country even though he was never a father himself?

Post a message in our Proposed discussion here if you interested in reading with us a good book: His Excellency, George Washington

Marjorie, Where do you livein SJ? perhaps we could get together for lunch some time? Hope you are mobil. I am usually free on Weds and Thurs. I live on the border of Cupertino near Lawrence Expressway.

Judy

to Cokie, Marni and Joan. Great discussion and wonderful facilitation, thanks to both of you.....i'm going to be lurking in GW, but i will be teaching Western Civ I during May and June, so i may not keep up w/ the reading......jean

Did any of you read the Celestine Prophecy written back in the early 90's? I loved that book and the movie is being filmed right here in Ocala, Florida. I lent that one out and never got it back. 90% of my books I give away but that one I felt was a keeper. Oh well!

Thanks for the toast, Jean! That was a fun discussion and I'm going to miss it and the madeira!

I'll be joining in the GW discussion also - have already read His Excellency but will enjoy discussing it. See you there!

Marni

I read that when it came out but really didn't like it much. I hope the movie is better. Tee hee!

Made it home from London just fine - on the lookout for JoanG who was in Paris the last I heard. Have you been following the rioting there? Will be happy when she checks in. And Ginny should be packing her suitcases and heading home from Rome soon too. Hail, hail...

We had a quick trip - feel as if I've run a 26K marathon trying to keep up with Bruce - who tends to overschedule each day. The one thing I insisted on doing was a stop at Hamley's - the largest toy store in the world I'm told. Five (or was it six?) floors of toys, many on hands-on display so you can see which ones the kids really go for.

I have one regret and am hoping that a Brit can come to the rescue. I saw a need little Angelina Ballerina pocket library - six mini books (about 4" x 4"each) in a heavy cardboard case. I had it in my hand! When I saw how much Thomas the Train stuff I was buying for the grandsons, I decided I'd order the books when I got home through Amazon. But I can't find the set anywhere. I can't even find it in the UK on Hamley's web site!

My only hope is that one of our Brit participants here will see this and the next time s/he goes to Hamley's will remember to check the book department for it. (Maybe any book store in England carries it?) I will pay all expenses - and then some! My little ballerina granddaughter would love this for her birthday.

It's good to be back but so much catching up and unpacking! First a quick stop over to Great Books & Don Quixote - this discussion will begin on April 15 - and I can promise you a really fun time! Would love to have you join us!

ps. Love the new photos above...but where's YOURS?

Click Here to sign up to participate in His Excellency, George Washington, by Joseph Ellis, proposed for May 1. This is and easy short 278 page popular biography of our foremost founding father. Every one is welcome to join our discussion that will be complete before the beginning of the end of May holiday.

Check it out, Ella and I hope you will participate!

Welcome back home, JOAN P. !

Click Here For pictures I took in Sept 1960 when JFK and LBJ made a Campaign pitch at the Alamo.

Harold, thanks for the link. Oh, those dresses! It all looks so innocent.

I clicked on another link with a picture of a woman handing out tacos to WWI troops, with a caption listing a dinner that President Eisenhower used to eat, when "courting Mamie at the 'Original,' a Mexican Restaurant in downtown San Antonio where they dined on the 35 cent Tejano dinner consisting of two tamales, an enchilada, rice, frijoles and tortillas with dulce for desert."

What is dulce? I know it only as a woman's name.

Kleo

Dulche

Dulce means "sweet". Here, for sure it is a short name for 'Dulce de leche', the sweet spread made from milk and sugar.

An easy way to make dulce de leche is to put a can of sweet condensed milk in a pressure cooker, add water to half the hight of that can and cook it for half an hour. Let it cool before opening the can!

http://www.usenet.com/newsgroups/rec.food.baking/msg00589.html

It is delicious on wafles or crepes , even spread on a slice of bread.

Harold,

Thank you for sharing such memorable photos. I can see both men so clearly. The sky is beautiful and clear.

Bubble,

I love waffles. The topping will make the waffles more delicious.

Hello,

Just a friendly reminder that the discussion of "The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde" opens April 1st. Follow the link below to the discussion.

Jekyll/Hyde

Bill H

That looks great, Bill, I love your old time book discussions!

Welcome home, Pearson, so good to have you back again. Hope Joan G is ok in France, that looks most unpleasant, to me.

Big new vote in the Great Books, too, showing the classics are very popular with our readers. We've always had discerning readers here on SeniorNet.

I know jet lag is bad but there I was, sitting in the airport, reading USA Today when Thomas Hoving again lept out at me, just this past Thursday: (Two days ago) Look! Thursday USA Today article on the Metropolitan Museum of Art and Thomas Hoving (again!)

Wow, and to think we know him!

I know we read the DaVinci Code here on SeniorNet, but I resisted. However, as we careened around the mountain tops in Greece, on one lane roads in a giant tall and horrifyingly lurching bus, some people pulled it out to get their minds off possible tourist busses flashing down gorges, and so I bought it....(NB: if you're a total fan here's an opposing viewpoint: I know I know!!! Everybody just loved it! I didn't . I was alternately disgusted, angered, and scared to death, and the man's logic jumps between fact and fiction are unreal. It's silly. But it was the "chuckling" that got to me at last.

If Langton had "chuckled" one more time I swear I would have thrown the book thru the window, and dogGONE, didn't he start out Angels and Demons, the prequel or the first Langton book, which I now am reading, on page 6 chuckling again. Chuckles the Clown …er…Langdon.. needs to cool it (this is an unbiased opinion, obviously) hahaah But that's what we're here for. Having just come from the Vatican, and several of the sites he mentions I am enjoying Angels and Demons as I did the Code, for the background, the rest is eye crossingly illogical and just plain, in some leaps, erroneous. He appears to have a new book out in Europe, actually, but I could not decipher the title in Italian. I have heard that the Code caused some people to "lose their faith," unquote. I can't see how, it's so full of holes.

How did his trial come out and whose side are you on? I wish I could have seen that one, I love those trials in Old Bailey. He lists the book in question, the basis of the lawsuit, quite prominently as a "best seller" in the Code.

No problem reading the new Pope's latest book title, it's in Latin, everybody is reading it, on trains, etc. Deus Caritas Est. I don't know if the text is, too. Both of the impressive services which concerned the appointing of Cardinals at the Vatican I attended were in Latin, and I have the program of a third done by the Pope on last Sunday: and it's entirely in Latin, I think the new Pope likes Latin and wishes to restore it, that's A OK with me!

I also read Hotel Babylon, making the rounds in Europe, the story of what really goes on in those 5 star hotels in England: (You don't want to know). A précis is: if you want the staff to snap to attention when you come in, skip the chumminess and throw money at them, but never tuck it in their pockets: now you know. Leave the maids a tip but hide it under the pillow or the bellboys and porters will take it: the maids get NOTHING and have NO ladder of success they may climb, housekeepers are not appointed from the maid staff. A maid deserves it, you would not believe what they find in hotel rooms.

They LOVE celebrities who trash their hotel rooms, too, by the way, in that way they can get entire overhauls by fines for damages.

It was quite interesting.

I loved The Ivy Chronicles, a fictionalized account of what happens when parents take THE TEST and try to get their children in privileged PRE SCHOOLS on the East Coast, and yes you read that correctly. The author used to do that work and she knows: it's hair raising.. The struggle to get tiny children in these schools will turn your hair white if it's not already, very well written and quite good. It questions values which may need questioning.

I am mid way thru And God Invented the Au Pair which is quite cute actually, it's fiction, two sisters from England, one of whom is struggling to make do in her new home, having been relocated to Canada, it's light but fun. (Obviously I like light reading on trips hahaha).

Next voting or selection up for those of us who would like to participate, will be a discussion and then vote on our first selection of books with House in the title, discussion and voting to begin April 15, Tax Day in the States, just like we did with our very first book ever in the Books: Snow Falling on Cedars, so be ready to promote your own favorite and tell why, we'll have a fine old time discussing the various merits of the ones you'd like: so many good titles there (see heading) and good reads, and there are several more new ones out in Europe as well, with House in the title, seems a popular theme, I'm glad we can be in the swing of things too, here.

And then we have Teacher Man coming in July, a very good and very provocative read. Everybody has been a student or a teacher, sometimes both sometime in their lifetime. Some of us have horror stories of teachers. Some of us can remember a particular teacher fondly from the past. Some of us have had children with teachers who should never have stepped in the classroom: what makes a good teacher? What makes a bad one? Did one teacher influence YOUR life? We'll have a high old time with this one, I'm looking forward to it.

What are you reading??!!??

I don't think Brown's trial is settled yet. Facts are in but judge hasn't ruled, last I heard.

I enjoyed Da Vinci Code for what it was. It was pretty silly in parts but I did admire the mind who put it together. It's not going to win any literary awards, but not all books do. We had a gal in my f2f who was totally offended by it. I found it interesting. Nothing more or less.

I'll have to look further at Teacher Man. I am an ex-teacher so this may be of interest. Can't recall now if it's Frank or the brother who wrote this one. I loved ANGELA'S ASHES but didn't like the sequels, or brother's book.

I just finished reading SNOW FLOWER AND THE SECRET FAN. This was the first book in a long, long time that I couldn't put down and couldn't wait to get back to. If you liked KITE RUNNER, think KITE RUNNER set in China. Warning- footbinding chapters are horrific. An excellent read!! I sent a copy on to my Mom- that's the highest recommendation I can give a book because I only send things that I feel are a cut above all the mediocre stuff I read. I'm doing a group online, with the author soon and cannot wait. If you like books about women, and their relationships, you'll love this.

Am now reading Ishiguro's NEVER LET ME GO and this one has me hooked as well.

My f2f is doing Smith's THE ACCIDENTAL next. Has anyone read it? I'm still wavering over whether I want to read it or not.

The "dulce" that the Eisenhower’s might have had as desert following their meal at the "Original" would have been full of many half pecan slices held together with the brown sugar-molasses candy base. Very sweet and very good!

Ginny - welcome home!I hope that you had a great trip. How special to be at the Vatican with all the hoop-de-do surrounding the new cardinals. What were some of the highlights of the trip?

The local high school and community chorus joined forces and went on an impressive 10 day tour of Italy a few weeks back. The group sang for a mass in St. Peter's. Tonight they give a "home" concert. We do not have the Pieta in the corner, but we will have a lot of proud folk in the audience.

Kathy

It's great to have you back, GINNY, WELCOME !

Pralines! I was actually trying to read the word in English. I live in California so I'm pretty used to Spanish words just being in English. Brain blip, methinks.

Thanks, all.

Kleo

Ginny,

Welcome Home!

Ginny, We've missed you and we're glad you're back.

About Dan Brown's book, DaVinci Code, I found it fun to read as a mystery. I also read a couple of others of Brown's but finally realized that all of his books are just his formula of fiction. They are all fill in the blanks with the new happenings but keep the main folks the same, doing the same things. Can't believe it took me two or three books to admit that. Sort of like the old Nancy Drew's and Hardy Boys but brought up to the adult level. Well, almost!

Just finished "The Circus In Winter" and am now onto "Marley And Me".

Scootz

Who wrote "Snow Flower and the Secret Fan"? The title is intriguing.

I decided to reserve Snow Flower at the library and am 17th on the list. They have many copies. The same goes for Isiguro's title but I decided to reserve it also and am 1st on the list. Am looking forward to perusing and possibly reading both books.

Pedl'n

I still have not found the time for read Bruce Feiler's latest but I do have a copy and may want to discuss it later next fall. Let me know what you think of it.

Let me know if you like either book. It's hard to recommend here as I don't know you all very well, or your likes/dislikes.

I see some gals here didn't like NEVER LET ME GO. So far, I like it. But SNOW FLOWER is just a gem. I start the group with the author tomorrow and I'm very excited. I also ordered one of the author's mysteries, which is called DRAGON BONES. Her name is Lisa See.

Welcome home, Ginny! I'll join you in your dislike for The DaVinci Code. I did read it with the group, but I didn't like it. I thought it was mildly interesting as a fast-action adventure, but there were so many leaps of the imagination that went right off the cliff (identifying John as Mary Magdalene in the famous Last Supper, for example, which shows NO understanding of how John was frequently portrayed, not to mention overlooking the fact that this was the Last Supper and the 12 apostles had to be there and if you subtract one and put in Mary, where are we?).

The court case is still out I think. My bet, Brown will win.

Maryal

I finally read Mary Renault's The Persian Boy which I had been wanting to read for so long and never got around to it until my sister-in-law lent it to me recently. It's another beautiful Renault novel for those of you who enjoyed the The King Must Die discussion here on SeniorNet. It's about Alexander the Great through the eyes of his servant and lover Bagoas, a beautiful Persian eunuch boy. I love the way Renault mingles history with imagination. I read on the web that apparently Bagoas really existed, as told in ancient histories about Alexander.

I liked DaVinci as a mystery. Since I am not particularly religous as far as facts go, did not feel one way or another about the religous aspect of the book. While in Italy, heard a lot of indignant opinions however. Had fun in Italy.. much rain, wind, cold.. a few lovely golden days. I am a minority of one, but the best part of Italy was Pompeii with Florence a sort of distant second. Rome was just too frantic for words and Venice is sort of an odd off the wall place. We actually stayed on the island of Lido in Venice and that was fun. Walked down to the village square on a Friday night and enjoyed the ordinary people walking around with dogs, bambinos and Friday shopping. Then they all seem to eat out at the sidewalk cafes. Too cold for us, so we ate inside and watched..This coming from Florida makes me shiver at the weather that Italians like to sit out and eat in..

Stephanie, I felt like you do about the DaVinci Code. Interesting to hear your take on Italy. We're not much on big cities, so would probably feel as you do about that, too.

Thank you all for the nice welcomes back, I agree totally Deems.

I did see, in Rome (welcome back Stephanie, no, you're not a minority of one, by a long shot), Brown's new book, it's a light blue color in Europe and is apparently, if I'm reading Amazon right, something about Solomon.

It wasn't only the religious aspects Brown fuzzed and mixed over, but a lot of other Assumption Leaps. It's funny the reaction tho to the Code in Europe. The X ray guy in the Athens airport saw it on the belt and shook his head sadly, so I took to covering it up, hahahaa

I am beginning to wish Brown had not been quite so graphic in his descriptions in Angels.

Scootz, I have the Ishiguro, I loved his Remains of the Day, I'll read that next.

I love Pompeii and it's different every time, did you get to Oplontis, by any chance, Stephanie??!!?? Out of this world. This was my 7th trip to Pompeii, but I found the most eye popping wonder in Bacoli at the Piscina Mirabile. Unreal.

It hailed while we were in Rome! It had snowed on Vesuvius for the first time in March in living memory. It's a good time of year to go I think. I love Rome, did you see the Marathon?

What we saw the most of in Italy is Italian teens are school holiday and traveling in large packs.. Wow are they loud.. But then again walking down the streets, I was amazed at the volume of ordinary conversations.. This was our first Pompeii trip, so we did the first tour thing, but we will go back. I also want to go the Naples to the museum to see the treasures. I had always assumed they were on site.. I found it quite cold all over Italy.

Scootz- I read Snow Flower and the Secret Fan a few months ago and bought it for my DIL for Christmas. I enjoyed it, but then again I enjoyed the DaVinci Code too.

. I enjoyed it, but then again I enjoyed the DaVinci Code too.

Well, shoot ALF, you're not alone there.

Nothing wrong with liking it, imho.

Ginny- I haven't read any other Ishiguro. I would like to read REMAINS sometime, though.

The clerk and a couple were discussing this at the bookstore last night. The clerk said something interesting, he thinks the trial is simply a publicity ploy for the nonfiction work. Both books have the same publisher, but the nonfiction work has moved into BN best seller status since the trial started.

"It wasn't only the religious aspects Brown fuzzed and mixed over, but a lot of other Assumption Leaps." Ginny

But it's fiction, isn't that allowed?

As to the religion, I think Catholic-bashing would get old at some point, but it just seems to get going stronger and stronger as the years roll by. There's a book that hypothesizes a 19th century Catholic president--now that's a stretch.

Still, Browns' book did not hook me at all. The first page or so made me wish I were the one the painting fell on, preferably before I turned another page. Needless to say I did not get any further.

Kleo

Just read a review of another of the Poe as a detective series. Cannot remember the author. I have read one of them and loved it. Will research to find out what the name is. This time he goes to Massachusetts and meets Louisa Mae Alcott, which should be fun.

And then we have Teacher Man coming in July, a very good and very provocative read. Everybody has been a student or a teacher, sometimes both sometime in their lifetime. Some of us have horror stories of teachers. Some of us can remember a particular teacher fondly from the past. Some of us have had children with teachers who should never have stepped in the classroom: what makes a good teacher? What makes a bad one? Did one teacher influence YOUR life? We'll have a high old time with this one, I'm looking forward to it.

I read "Teacher Man" for a book discussion group a few months ago. I enjoyed it very much, having been a former teacher - and student. I think I'll put a reminder on my calendar to check out the discussion in July.

Nancy

Ginny,

Are we going to do the "House" book?

Ann Alden and some others echo my feelings about DaVinci Code - I found it an entertaining read but some of his twists and turns and supposed facts were a real hoot. Can't take it all seriously - and it is fiction after all. The court case will sell more books so it can't be all bad.

Steph H - who is it that goes to Massachusetts to meet Louisa May Alcott ?- tell me more please.

There is no post a message link on the Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde discussion, either the read-only one, which is linked in the heading, or the one I just posted on last night. What's going on?

Kleo

I just checked and Jekyll and Hyde is open to posting. Someone must have fixed it, KleoP.

Thank you, Andrea, Traude, Hats, Mrs. Sherlock, Ann, and Kathy, I appreciate that!

Andrea, your name was brought up several times in Rome by Fran M, (remember her?) who said that you were one of the most memorable people she had met, really said some flattering things! I guess you have that effect on people because I am positive that what captivated Wally Lamb about us was YOU and your quick witted bon mots, he just roared appreciatively, (thinking no doubt we were all like you instead of people who would go Ohmigosh ohmigosh ohmygosh every five minutes) hahahaa That's all I could think to say. Does everybody here know what Andrea SAID? I would give my eye teeth to have that degree of repartee.

Hats, yes, we'll begin discussing a "House" slate on April 15, have your favorites ready!

Thank you for mentioning the problem with Jekyl and Hyde, Kleo, I looked and there was a temporary problem so I fixed it, thanks, Pat, and thanks to everybody who reported it. Sorry for the glitch.

Kathy Hill! Thank you, I'll tell about my trip once you tell us about yours, you are an inspiration to anybody and I don't think anybody knows, do tell us about this last one!!

The crowds of parishes and representatives at St. Peter's are my favorite thing to see, they will often wear the costumes of their countries (this year the Polish and the Koreans were really decked out, very impressive) and/ or hats or scarves, it's very super fun to see. One of the Polish guys got really exuberant when the Marathon came thru Rome and they were filming him and the runners would come over and have their photos made with him, he was really quite colorful as were they all and, he got so excited he vaulted INTO the throng of runners (holding up his umbrella decked out in his colorful costume, and running BACKWARDS! along with the runners.) Needless to say he collided with a fellow who was NONE too happy!

Lots of good will all over the place. I loved it. I don't know how many marathoners there were but I doubt anybody of any age didn't get in their path SOME time in the day. I know I did.

What an interesting discussion of what "fiction" is, thank you Kleo for introducing that topic.

I don't know, doesn't it bother you all a little bit, in the "willing suspension of disbelief" we all tend to have, whether we admit it or not, when we read fiction and see some incongruity? I mean it's like watching a gladiator movie and spotting a Rolex on one of the Roman soldiers (actually happened). There's a certain amount of trust that authors have with their readers, I think Brown really went over it with Code.

But it sure has made him money, hasn't it?

And as many people LOVE it as hate it and however you feel about it, it's YOUR experience and you're entitled to it, I'm raising an opposing voice deliberately, but it is how I feel.

Gumtree, you've got THAT right, it's spawned an entire industry! Sunday's NYTimes bestseller list showed Code is first. It's been there 156 weeks. The Templar Legacy is 6th, if you read Code you know what that pertains to. The Last Templar is 8th. Labyrinth about a search for the Holy Grail is 10th. Holy Blood, Holy Grail, the book Brown was sued over is 13th in paperback. That's a LOT of interest!

I was told Angels and Demons was a better book, less a formula than Code but I agree with Ann, (and gumtree) it got to where it was a hoot there about 3/4ths of the way thru Code, an outline-able formula, which went as best as I can remember it:

A startling little known "fact" (the knob on your stove is actually a communication device for Martians), is revealed to gasps and deep admiration by other characters, begging for more information. (Built in Audience I begging for more "background" facts).

Chuckles chuckles, and begins to…

Lecture on background (it must be hard to fit all those lectures in otherwise) during which he sprinkles in the MOST absurd and incorrect gibberish along with a real fact or two.

Is this Sci Fi? THAT's the kind of fiction I can relate it to.

Anyway, I normally very much like this kind of book. I love Preston and Childs. I loved Relic and its sequel and you don't get any more fantastical than an entire city living beneath the NYC subway or a monster in the basement of the History Museum of NYC, but come ON!

Marni, I have heard a LOT about Renault, which do you think of her books is the best? I just climbed all over Knossos, didn't she write about Crete and the bull worship there? Or do I have her mixed up with somebody else? Something about the King Must Die or do I have her hopelessly confused?

Scootz, I'd like to know what you think of Remains when you finish it?

Aberlaine, we'd love to have you in Teacher Man!

Don't you love bookstores? There's a fantastic one just opened in the Termini Train station in Rome with a huge lovely English language section, see- thru glass or some sort of pleixglass floors, lots of light, lots of European published books before we get them, lots of great titles, a circular glass elevator, glass steps to climb up to the 2nd floor, and lots of nearby cafes on the adjoining loft areas of the station (not connected to the bookstore) to read them in. Love it!

"A startling little known "fact" (the knob on your stove is actually a communication device for Martians), is revealed to gasps and deep admiration by other characters, begging for more information. (Built in Audience I begging for more "background" facts).

Chuckles chuckles, and begins to…

Lecture on background (it must be hard to fit all those lectures in otherwise) during which he sprinkles in the MOST absurd and incorrect gibberish along with a real fact or two."

Ginny, blue ribbon chuckles from me. You also hit on the thing my Mom dislikes about him, he lectures you throughout the book (she read it).

And, yes, I think it has spawned an industry. All the BN are already for all the Knights Templar conspiracy enthusiasts. There is a special table near the entrance full of books ABOUT Brown's book by all sorts of authors.

Dan Brown spent a lot of time lecturing people, creating an aura of truthiness, then denying that his fiction contained truth, and now denying he copied what he appears to have copied outright in portions (even though that's not what the trial is about). Still, I don't see what it's all about: it's poorly written, pedantic, silly in the first 2 pages. Why go further? It's absurd. (I do read junk, though.)

However, this proved such a winning formula with The Blair Witch Trial, the DaVinci Code, that I suspect it will be the future norm.

Preston and Childs aren't as full of themselves as Brown seems to be from the outlook of a non-reader listening to all the readers. They want you to have fun, plus you learn some stuff along the way. Those great houses in New York really exist. But I think they are as in awe of what they learn while writing the book as their average reader is. I don't get the impression Brown is in awe of what he knows, but rather in awe of his ability to impart it to others. Again, not with much basis for this knowledge.

Kleo

There really is something about stories about knights - the Knights Templar....secret meetings, codes, treasures, the hold of a secret organization over powers of the world....that grabs you. I think it's wonderfully interesting. Actually, any of the groups of knights that became powerful during the time of the Crusades can be pretty fascinating and there are so many books and movies about them.

I had mentioned a book in the Don Quixote discussion - Ironfire by David Ball that is a really fascinating look at the Hospitaller Knights of St. John, who were the last remaining group of Knights left in the holy land, who were kicked out. They were given Malta as their base by the Holy Roman Emperor in exchange for an annual Maltese falcon because the emperor liked to hunt. Eventually, the Hospitaller Knights of Malta were attacked by the Ottomans resulting in a huge seige and one of the most famous battles in history.

I just this very hour was watching the History Channel - the show about finding Napoleon's flagship L'Orient that blew up in Aboukir Bay during the Battle of the Nile (the battle that first made Admiral Nelson so famous and another one of the most famous battles in history). I found out on the show that Napoleon had landed on Malta before he went to Alexandria and he had stolen the great treasure of the Knights of St. John - worth many millions. The treasure was apparently stored on the L'Orient when she blew up along with 1000 men.

Ginny: I have only read 3 Renault novels - The King Must die about Theseus, The Bull From the Sea, the sequel also about Theseus (maybe the one you're thinking of), and The Persian Boy about Alexander the Great. I loved them all. Can't pick one as the best. I'm going to read some of her other books when I have a chance. What beautiful stories.

Oh, I loved Renault and read ( I think) everything she wrote. The Bull novel was excellent. She makes Greek Mythology come alive. Edgar Allen Poe and a young man meet and become friends in this small series. The new book just out sends Poe to Massaachusetts in search of a murdered and he stays with the Alcott family. Still have not had quite enough time to find out the author, but I promise to search soon. Ginny, we found two small english book stores in Rome, both had a wide selection and it kills me not to buy, but I refrained since my luggage was too too heavy by that point.

In Vol I Mal, Eloise, Carolyn, Bubble, Stephanie, Lady C, Gladys, Patrick B, Mahlia, Pauline, Betty G and of course Robbie, the DL, provided a wonderful discussion on what is civilization, an especially interesting dialogue on gender relationships, customs and morals. Patrick provided a lovely essay on "solitude," apparently first published in Mal's on-line magazine. What has happened to Patrick, LadyC, Mahlia, Pauline, Betty G?

Mal, can you tell us something about your magazine. I have seen it, but how did it come about, what is it's purpose? I don't feel this is outside the scope of this site, since e-books and e-mags are certainly in all of our futures, if not our present, for reading.

Mal's comments on gender relationships and women in pre-history leads me to suggest a book by Mary Beard,(an historian of the mid-20th century), titled On Understaning Women. If you have an interest in world history and/or women's history, it's a must read.

Thank you SN for archiving these terrific discussions so those of us who missed them can still benefit from the wisdom and insight of all those who have participated........jean

Mahlia leads the Islam discussion, found I think in the religion or life styles folder. Sue

Jean (Mabel), I admire you for having the fortitude to be reading through the first volume (Our Oriental Heritage) of "The Story of Civilization" which we began about five years ago. As you know, we have since discussed the second volume (The Age of Greece), the third volume (Caesar and Christ) and are now in the fourth volume (The Age of Faith.)
Good luck and come up for air now and then!

Robby

I admire you for having the perseverance to lead the discussion for five yrs. That's an amazing feat. Are you planning on reading and discussing all 11 volumes? That's VERY impressive. You do a great job of keeping everybody on task and providing great links - as do all the DL's. I just can't believe that i have been lucky enough to find SN and all of the intellectual, and fun, discussions that are here. Whoever tho't up this concept gets a lot madeira toasts from me!!!

Got to keep some madeira for the new GW discussion in May....LOL....jean

Jean (Mabel):-The secret of my remaining alive and kicking is for all of you in Story of Civilization and Origin of Species to continue to stimulate my brain. Remember that recent survey? Constant mental activity wards off Alzheimer's.
If your posts stop, I die.

Robby

Jean: I'm with you and Robby re SeniorNet. I am so very happy I stumbled across this site - completely by accident. The discussions are wonderful and stimulating and every single day I look forward to the comments posted. Cheers!

Marni

Jean, in case you haven't found out yet, Patrick Bruyere died on April 27th 2002. I remember his posts very well. I have been with S of C since the beginning and I still read it faithfully even if I don't say much any more. By itself it is an advanced course in history and philosophy, I am happy that you have joined the group, you add so much to the content. Apparently we have a few years to go yet provided Robby wants to stay at the helm.

Hi Folks,

Thanks for the nice welcome home messages. I appreciate them. I am happy to be home but the jet lag is so bad this time. I will be back when I get caught up on my sleep.

Joan Grimes

I am enjoying his comments so much in the discussion of Vol I....

Maybe we should draw out the discussion, go off on tangents, make a lot more comments, find a lot more links, disagree more, .... and keep Robby around for another 15 or 20 years.

jean

I am the tangent person I cannot help adding my two cents worth about how history is repeating itself. Nothing changes does it. We humans as a whole are a very horrible lot!

Don't leave me out! I love Seniornet too! It's a very special place.

SN is survival for a lot of us.

Twenty more years? That brings me to 105. I think I can make that!

Robby

Wishing you to 120 and healthy, Robby! We'll then plan a SN bash for YOU and not for a location.

Senior Net is a good friend indeed. I love the banter and the discussion about books. I have never found a friend that liked the books I did and this has been such a wonderful gift to me to find all of these people who share my passions.

I heartily agree with the comments about Senior Net. It is a quality of conversation that would be almost impossible to get any other way. I can't begin to express my gratitude for all the things I've learned, the books I've studied, and the good times I've had.

I reckon Robbie will out live me! I can see him still in here at 105.

Carolyn

Stephanie, I recognize that feeling. You can appreciate how I felt when I walked into a book store at a resort on the Oregon coast. The owner had marked on the shelves books that she recommended. As I moved about the shop, i found book after book that I, too, would recommend. Such a thrill. SeniorNet has that same thrill; people who like what I like and who steer me to more enjoyument rhrough their recommendations.

When I had the used book store, I had my favorites marked and my husband would come in and mark his.. Our customers loved this and would sometimes put up little notes to other customers sharing the authors they loved. Always seemed to please the regulars.

Author of DaVinci Code, Dan Brown--weren't we talking about him in here?

Here's the Article.

For all you Henry Huggins, Beezus and Ramona fans, Beverly Cleary is celebrating her 90th b'day on April 12. She no longer lives in Oregon, but Carmel Valley. Friends of her stories are suggesting we make it a D.E.A.R. day, that measns Drop Everything And Read, where families, friends and communities get together to read. Gee, its so hard to drop everything and read, isn't it? Heere's the website: http://www.beverlycleary.com/index.html

I join those who comment on Seniornet. It has literally changed my life. To spend part of each day talking with other people who love books as much as I do is an unbelievable gift. It sets the tone for everything else I do.

I stumbled on SoC first, and it will always be a favorite. Robby, lead on -- we will always follow you. It took me awhile to realize how many other great discussions there were. I couldn't believe it!!

I'm glad Ginny and Deems feel the way I do about the De Vinci code. Steam comes out of my ears whenever I think of it.

Not because it's a bad book -- there are plenty of bad books in the world that don't make me angry. It's something else -- I HATE A DISHONEST ARGUMENT. Whether arguing about the Catholic Church or about the price of onions in Antarctica, I hate it when people distort or misstate facts to prove their point. I am a judge's daughter, and was raised with a real and lively appreciation of "standards of evidence". And Brown has no such standards -- none at all. That doesn't mean that everything he concluded was wrong, but it means that you can't believe anything he says without doing research elsewhere. I have no idea whether he plagiarized or not, but given the intellectual dishonesty and sloppiness in the book, it wouldn't surprise me.

Even I, knowing nothing about the subject, was able to see the illogic of his arguments and catch him in misstatements. At one point he says that the Church hid all sorts of facts about Jesus, but now that the Dead sea Scrolls have been discovered, the facts will come out. AS OF HIS WRITING ABSOLUTELY NOTHING HAD BEEN FOUND ABOUT JESUS IN ANY OF THE DEAD SEA SCROLLS except one sentence, which some scholars think refereed to his death.

(I understand from the news that a gospel has been found that implies that Jesus ordered Judas to betray him, but this wouldn't have been known when DSS was written and has nothing to do with Brown's theories).

But by making such fuzzy references Brown gives the impression of a whole weight of evidence behind him. My daughter has a friend who is curator in an art museum and can go on and on about his misstatements on art (including calling Leonardo "De Vinci", a real howler, like assuming my name is "from Maryland").

Sorry -- that book really pushes my buttons.

Yeah mine too, and if you underlined all of the inaccuracies and slurred over...what do you call it, what sort of logic is it when you...I simply can't remember the name of it, when you....AGGG, say since X is red and Y is blue then Z must be yellow and it's not. It's right on the tip of what's left of my mind! OH he did so much of that.

OH GOLLY it's on the tip of my tongue, I'll probably wake up at 2 am shouting it, and the name for that type of logic is Latin, what on EARTH is it?

I'm determined to get thru Angels and Demons. Today in a nice B&N I saw a lovely edition of Angels and Demons, beautifully illustrated of the places, fountains, crypts, churches, etc, in the book. THAT is what people enjoy also, in his books in addition to the other stuff, the interesting locations, which ARE interestingly depicted. Unfortunately the beautiful pictures are destroyed for me by the text accompanying them and the simply awful torture scenes and the victimizing so lovingly portrayed, the last one was simply a horror, disgusting, the last Cardinal's death. Awful awful thing.

No need to go into such detail, on this. I have to laugh also every time I read the heroine's name, tho: Vittoria. It reminds me of the Medium in EF Benson: Vittoria, fire and water, Vittoria. What a hoot.

She was fake too.

I'll desist.

Thank you Deems for the judgment today, I think it's his own idea, who else could mangle the facts like he has.

Kleo,

Stephanie, Pat H (so glad to see you back again), Mrs. Sherlock, and now Joan K, thank you all for those stirring words about SeniorNet's Books! We must frame them or at least put them in our main Books EVERYWHERE! Love it!

I'm also glad to see such nice remarks for Robby and his discussion The Story of Civilization. It's nice to see appreciation for the hard work our volunteers do here and have done for 10 years in putting on what we hope are worthwhile book discussions and opportunities to talk Books.

Oh of course I had to be in B&N today, and got just a pile of books, listened to Wuthering Heights READ on the CD on the way home, I like that. I like audio books (thought of you, Joan G), Prunella Scales (of Fawlty Towers) has an amazing range of voices, she and a man read it: it's 4 CD's.

(Did you know Capote is already out on DVD?)

But I was thinking how different people's tastes in reading really ARE. I got The Great Gatsby which I have never read but I saw the last 15 minutes of the Robert Redford film this morning (which looked awful but I need to see it from the beginning, if you have seen it, is it good or bad?), and think I'd like to read the book: big hole in my education. I got the Mambo Kings Sing Songs of Love because I saw the Armand Assante movie with Antonio Banderas and never realized that a Pulitzer Prize winner wrote that book till I picked it up today. It was a powerful movie.

I got I, Elizabeth because HBO is going to run what appears to be a spectacular series on Elizabeth I with Helen Mirren!! and Jeremy Irons!! and I wanted to read more about her. I think I picked the wrong book to do that tho, actually.

I got Skeletons on the Zahara ,which I think I bought before and can't find, which everybody is raving about, picked it up and could NOT put it down, tho I may have to skip some parts, it's a true story from the 1800's.

And I got The Good Wife Strikes Back by Elizabeth Buchan, reduced to 5 bucks, I've heard about it, too and it's a new hardback.

There's something about the promise of a stack of bright new books just waiting for you to pick them up, all different, that really appeals to me for some reason. It's the PROMISE. How many books DELIVER, tho?

Stephanie I really loved that you put notes out for your customers, and that they put out notes, also, that's super. Reminds me of the Bas Bleu catalogue which uses reader reviews.

I guess that's sort of what we do here? We put out notes for books we like or not and people can agree or disagree or post their own: virtual sticky notes!

Stephanie, I wish your used book store had been in my orbit. It sounds like some other stores I knew where, when you walked in, you found things you didn't know existed and didn't know you wanted until you saw them. That's what's wrong with online ordering, no matter how convenient. There is no serendipity, no chance for discovery.

Ginny, I would like to know what you think of Gatsby when you read it. Several of my friends think it's magnificent, but I have read it twice, and remain unmoved. I think I see what he is getting at, but I'm unconvinced. Probably a defect on my part.

I'd like to second all the praise for SeniorNet. When I retired, I promised myself that I would read wonderful books, but didn't know where to find them. I've been a member of two book discussion groups since then and have read some exciting books. I also try to follow the discussions on SeniorNet, although I have to admit my remarks are nowhere as thought provoking as the ones I read. I'll be joining the "Teacher" discussion and the "Undaunted Courage" discussion (a book one of my groups is in the process of reading right now).

Thank you all and SeniorNet for giving me such a rich selection of books and opinions!

Nancy

Well, I have tried to keep my mouth shut on the Da Vinci Code but just cannot. I know that I am a low brow and do not require books to be perfect to enjoy them. Theron and I read (listened) to the Da Vinci Code soon after it came out. We were traveling in our motorhome and as was our habit we listened to it and discussed it together. We enjoyed it immensely because we debunked it as we went along. I would say that is not true or that is not what happened and Theron would have his say on it too. He would sometimes be the one who came out with "but that is not right" and I would agree with him. We had lots of fun with it. So we both enjoyed it.

Early on our curator of European art at the Birmingham Museum of Art did a fabulous talk debunking the Da Vinca Code which was a complete sell-out and she had to do it about 4 or 5 times with each time being a sell-out. As she debunked it Theron and I would look at each other as she brought out something that was false and say that is what we said. We loved her talk as did everyone who heard it. She traveled to several places in the US giving this talk.

So Folks, I have to say that I throughly enjoyed the Da Vinci Code. Not sure that I would enjoy it as much if I were reading it now since I have no one to enjoy it with.

It is certainly being read everywhere though. In Bookstores in Paris it is all over the place. I also saw books that were guides to show you where to go to see the places in Paris that were mentioned in the Da Vinci Code. It is really making money for someone. The fact that it has been so much in the news with the recent plagarism thing has been real publicity for Dan Brown and all who are getting in on making money from the whole thing.

In my humble opinion it should be allowed to just fade away with no more said about it. Too much has been made of it. After all, is just a novel, a piece of fiction, no better and no worse that most fiction that is out there.

Joan Grimes

DaVinci... Sometimes books seem to take on a life of their own.. Think of it.. They stay best sellers for the longest times and everyone talks of them. That is what Dan Brown did with this. Doesnt matter how true or untrue, it matters that all of these people read it.. like or hate,, they read it. That is really the mission of books, so he succeeded in that. When the movie comes out, you get to hate or love all over again. The tours that take you to the places that are mentioned in the book are enormously popular. I talked to a tour director and he said that they are generally sold out this year.. Amazing,, a book with its own life span.

On our news last night, they stated that religious books are up 50% since the Da Vinci Code book. Anything that can make us think about and explore our religion (or others) is good, im my opinion. I've never been one to be threatened by other opinions.

I think the judge make the right decision in this case. Everyone in my family read the book, and hub and I also listened to it on tape on a trip through Bluebonnet country. I can't wait to see the film. And I wish I could do the Europe trip, I think it'd be great fun.

The latest fascinating thing is this lost gospel of Judas. I plan to watch the show tomorrow night- looks fascinating.

Well Stephanie, if you buy your own guide book then you can take a tour on your own. Of course all the guide books that I say in France were in French. I did not have the strength or inclination to do a tour of it. Had to save myself for looking at art in the museums.

Joan Grimes

I've been wanting to read Iris Murdoch for a long time. Has anyone here read any of her books? I am considering THE SEA, THE SEA, but would like to hear of any of her others that are good.

Great comments, pro and con on the famous Code! That's what we're here for, that's the purpose of this discussion, love it.

Thank you Aberlaine, we must do something with these wonderful comments, we may have to make a 10th Anniversary Book like the new edition of Ecce! Have you all seen it? The Classics Project did it? Just click on Books & Culture on the top of your page and look for it, it's fabulous: another great thing done by SeniorNetters.

I keep forgetting to say also that I love all the photos in the cube on this page Bubble you are SO cute! Judy Shernock, I love that photo!!! So nice to see you. It's fun to "see" who we're talking to, I think. Joan G, what a glorious new photo! And PatH AND Joan K, twins, love that photo!!

Pat H, out of curiosity and because my husband is on a trip and it's just MOI chez deserted farm here (me and our million dogs) I started the slim The Great Gatsby last night rather than bang around with Brown, running under people roasting alive , really hated that last scene, in Angels, and WHOA!

WHOA!

Page 1 of the Great Gatsby : On bores who want to tell you ALL because you are not judgmental "The abnormal mind is quick to detect and attach itself to this quality when it appears in a normal person..." Hello?

Er… One could read 10 pages of Brown in the time it took me to pause over that one.

Ok ok move on or we'll be stuck on page 1 forever.

Er..

Page 2: "Reserving judgments is a matter of infinite hope."

WHAT? Read that again here, pause, think. Er…

Page 2: "If personality is an unbroken series of successful gestures…."

WHAT?

WHOA! What?

And I found myself thinking, this is two pages. It has taken you ½ hour to read, stop, think, and get thru 2 pages. Maybe THIS is why they call some writing Great Books instead of a great book? I don't know if I like this or not but I sure have had to think about it.

Obviously you can't say anything on the basis of 2 pages, but I'm not sure I will ever get to page 3.

Whoops: page 2: "This responsiveness had nothing to do with that flabby impressionability which is dignified under the name of the "creative temperament"----- er?

Creative temperament? Another can o worms exploded. I shut the book and spent the rest of the night thinking about these issues. Maybe we should discuss this one. ahahaha

Scootz, I think Iris Murdoch is the one Judy Laird really likes so much, but am not sure. I don't believe I have read anything of hers, actually. (Another good use of discussions like this is so you can find out what you've missed and patch those holes, too.)

Thanks, Ginny....maybe Judy will come along then and give me some leads on her books. I almost bought THE SEA THE SEA last night but was hesitant about it. I'll wait till someone chimes in.

What a lively discussion. I'm so glad to be here where so much is going on. Re: Da Vinci Code. We discussed it here. I remember we talked a lot also about the Knights Templar and the organization OPus dei(?). I liked it, but didn't consider it anything outstanding or special. It's hard for me to understand all the hoopla. Random HOuse must have some outstanding marketing people.

Ginny, yes, the Capote DVD is out and I have it here from Netflix, in my hot little hand. Looking forward to watching it this week sometime.

And in an earlier post Ginny mentioned The Ivy Chronicles which I had never heard of, but found at my library. Totally outrageous, a hoot, and a spoof on life-styles of the "rich, with children." But this author, Karen Quinn, really did earn money by helping parents apply for nursery school and kindergarten? I guess that shouldn't be too surprising. Just the other day the NY Times had an article about a family that paid between $10,000 and $20,000 to a "college admissions consultant" to guide them through the process. I think I've been living under a cabbage leaf or in a mole hole or someplace equally foreign.

I've just finished rereading Matthew Pearl's The Dante Club as my local group discussed it this week. We discussed it here and it is still my all-time favorite discussion. There's an author who does his research, and writes so well, and is so darn nice. You really want him to succeed. I can't wait for The Poe Shadow to come out.

Mrs. Sherlock, so Beverly Cleary is 90. Years ago she was the banquet speaker at a state school librarian's conference. The decorating committee had worked very hard on table centerpieces which included hand-made Ramona dolls. Cleary was not pleased.

From tomorrow's NYT Books section -- Rediscovered Novel of an Auschwitz Victim

'Suite Française,' by Irène Némirovsky
The author of Suite Francaise died at Auschwitz in 1942. She was a well-regarded writer in France, 9 novels and a biography of Chekhov. This volume, handwritten, was in a leatherbound notebook, saved by her eldest daughter who did not read it until the 1990's because she was afraid it would be too painful. After publication it became a best seller in France, and has now been translated.

" THIS stunning book contains two narratives, one fictional and the other a fragmentary, factual account of how the fiction came into being. "Suite Française" itself consists of two novellas portraying life in France from June 4, 1940, as German forces prepare to invade Paris, through July 1, 1941, when some of Hitler's occupying troops leave France to join the assault on the Soviet Union. . .she wrote the exquisitely shaped and balanced fiction of "Suite Française" almost contemporaneously with the events that inspired them, and everyone knows such a thing cannot be done. . .She wrote what may be the first work of fiction about what we now call World War II. She also wrote, for all to read at last, some of the greatest, most humane and incisive fiction that conflict has produced."

GINNY, JOAN K, DEEMS and others - I could not agree more on your take on the 'Da Vinci Code'. (Will definitely elaborate when I find the notes I took - then.)

Re "The Great Gatsby" and its author, Fitzgerald. I read him when I was an adult - and an immigrant to boot. It was Sheila Graham's "Beloved Infidel" that made me want to read as much of Fitzerald's work as I could lay my hands on. Graham was a Brit in Hollywood, became a gossip columnist and Fitzgerald's last love (also his pupil - he considered her semi-educated (!).

Whatever the cause or underlying reason, just let me say that Fitzgerald's values and those of his protagonists are not mine, and I question the profundity of some of this pronouncements.

SCOOTZ, we had an outstanding discussion of Murdoch's "The Sea, The Sea" right here in 2002, led by our dear late LORRIE. Superlatives should be used with caution, but that discussion deserved all of them. In fact, the participants were so engaged that LORRIE considered a regathering a year hence, an idea everyone eagerly embraced. Alas, it never happened.

The discussion can be found in the Archives.

Oh Dear Lorrie. such a lovely lady, I miss here here in Books. I was shattered when she left us.

Carolyn

Good for you Traude, I remembered Lorrie leading one called The Sea (and doing a heck of a job), but I should have looked back further for The Sea The Sea, good for you! What a memory!

Pedln, golly moses, you read something like THAT and it blows away all of the others in a heartbeat, huh? Wow! Can't wait to read more about it tomorrow. IMAGINE not wanting to read it till 1990 because it might be too painful, wow, wow wow! Aren't we glad she did! I am not sure I could have held back, for her mother's sake I'm glad (and for everybody's sakes) she finally did. WOW!

Eloise, this sounds like a good dual language book possibility for the future?

I miss her too, Carolyn, I think we all do. And LJ and Charlotte and Theron.

Oh gosh, I seem to have inadvertantly hit a nerve here. Sorry. But perhaps it was good for all of you to think of Laurie (?)

I think I will pick this book up this aft and start it.Half Price books is on my to do list today. I have wanted to read one of hers for so long- and it just seems providence now that I should try THE SEA THE SEA. I'll look into that archive once I've started. Can I follow along in it, as though it's a real discussion? That would be rather kewl, actually. LOL

Sorry Miss Ginny but I looked in my book software and since I have been keeping records I have not read Iris Murdock and know nothing about her. Thanks for thinking about me.

Oh well who IS it Judy? We got in this huge argument about her in one of the book discussions, it was an author we hated (or some of us did, some of us didn't), but you ...oh what WAS that book (see how good book discussions do ME?)

We hated the author (but you didn't) who first mentioned her. The author ...(something about suicide....something about killing herself when she turned 70, planning it in advance).... she was a college professor! YES! The author of the Gift of Life (which I led, apparently it did me a lot of good but I did hate it, truly). In the book The Gift of Life she referred to another author called something suspiciously a LOT like Iris Murdoch and YOU have read all of her books!

There, that ought to do it? Who is it? hahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

hahaha Scootz, let us know how you like it, it's possible those of us who are not incoherent with jet lag might like to read more of her. I seem to remember people loved it.

the History Channel is focusing on The Presidents all day today, starting w/ GW and ending w/ GWB! Isn't that an ironic set of initials?.....jean

SCOOTZ, "Hit a nerve", you say ?
Not really.
More like a fond remembrance of something well done with a great leader and engaged participants, as the record will show.

"I am a judge's daughter, and was raised with a real and lively appreciation of 'standards of evidence'. And Brown has no such standards -- none at all." JoanG

Still, it is fiction. Can't one just make up their own evidence for fiction? Brown simply has no standards.

I'm glad I'm in such good company with folks who simply loathed the book.

About logical fallacies. Maybe Ginny is thinking of a type of affirming the consequent--may not be what Ginny is thinking, but it is something obvious that Brown is guilty of when he speaks about his book and when others speak about his book, namely post hoc ergo propter hoc.

There is a related type of logical fallacy that is more closely related to the example Ginny gave (if a, then b, therefore c), but post hoc extraordinaire is Brown's pet: If Mary Magdelan lived in the time of Jesus AND Jesus saw her after dying on the cross, then their marriage caused her to see Him on the cross.

Most of Brown is about if an event occured AND then another event occured, the first event caused the second--post hoc. Brown simply launches his post hoc to the stratosphere: The sun rose, then I got a job offer, therefore the sun god caused me to get a job offer so I must hire an albino identical twin assasin not knowing which twin is which to slaughter a male long-haired black lamb for me during the next full moon near a village in Palestine while painting a virgin on the ceiling of a religious building.

"I think the judge make the right decision in this case." Scootz

I agree, especially that
the judge DID affirm that Brown obviously copied parts of the other authors' work, just did not lift the architecture of their work.
Like I said, don't know about the "architecture," but certainly Brown should have received an 'F' on his paper and transcript and been sent to the Dean's office.

My Mom just gave me Skeletons on the Zahara to read. Love the title and cover, but don't know anything about it, yet.

I loathed Gatsby when young, but read Hemingway's The Sun also Rises, Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front, then Fitzgerald's Tender Is the Night as an introduction to Lost Generation authors and was thoroughly blown away by all 3 books and authors. We will read Gatsby this year, I hope.

In my humble opinion it should be allowed to just fade away with no more said about it. You're right here, Joan. I try to avoid discussing it for this reason, however, sometimes I get tired of the associated Catholic-bashing. And it won't be just fading away.

Kleo

and you provide a light-heartedness and laughter that makes me smile on many days - obviously that comes from growing up in the best town in America.......uuummmmmmm? LOL

I have been turned on to so many wonderful books - both very serious, good fiction and non-fiction and easy fun reads - by all the posters in all the sites. I just finished reading The Shell Seekers by Pilcher who i heard about here somewhere. Enjoyed it. I came from the library yesterday w/ a pile of books that are just-for-fun, but i "heard" about there authors here: Anne George - read half of Murder Boogies w/ Elvis last night, love the sisters; got an ELinor Lipman - who i read about in a discussion of "books that make us laugh," and a Susan Wigg. I'm also reading for my book group The Secret Life of Bees - checking out your archived discussion; a J.D. Robb and the last of Nora Roberts "Key" series. I'm also listening to - in the car and on the treadmill - Gore Vidal's The Golden Age. I think I get his snide sarcasm better when i listen.

In non-fiction I'm reading The Sounds of Time by Stephanie Wolf who i heard about from Harold. I'm also reading The Warrior Queens by Antonia Fraser that i got at the library book sale.

AND I'm at posting #727 in the archived Vol I of the Durant discussion. Let's see that probably means i have 9thousand, 9hundred and 99 more to go, right????? and then i have Vols II and III!!! ahhhhh, maaaybeee.

You can see i'm an eclectic reader. I get bored easily and need change, the same happens w/ my handiwork......can't begin to count how many UFO's (unfinished objects) i have around. When i get a dead line i can hunker down and get it done! But it's fun, fun, fun to hunt for new authors, new projects and THEN get to discuss them w/ all of you is just the icing on the cake!!! What did i do before i found SN?......love you all, your serious comments and your banter....jean

And I should add that Jean (Mabel) is doing that in addition to regularly posting in the current discussion of Story of Civilization plus posting in Origin of Species.

Robby

Ginny, I think that you're thinking about May Sarton as being one of Judy L's favorites -- am I right, Judy?

May Sarton was a friend of Carolyn Heilbrun -- we read and discussed her ??? --- a gift of time, or some such. How to live after 60. In that book she spoke of planning her death at age 80. And then we did find out that Heilbrun had, in fact, committed suicide.

Thanks Pedlin Miss Ginny often gets me confused about many things. Yes I read and love May Sarton. Pedlin didn't you get one of her books when we were at the book store in Pioneer Square.?? Carolyn Heilberg was my favorite and the last discussion I was passionate about and will never do it again. I often look at my beautiful sun room and see all my May Sarton on the shelf and wish I had time to set down and read but I never have time. Now the yard beckons and my Miss Martha has turned out to be a 24/7 job but I wouldn't give her up for all the tea in China.

I feel out of touch most of the time in SN its like reading a foreign language to me. I told Ginny this morning I don't know how she can trapse all over Europe, climb mountains, fall off stairs and have all the adventures she does and she can't drive across the bridge into Charleston. I drove over it everyday when we were there and it was not a big deal to me.

I believe in the old days my favoite author and my favorite discussion and of coourse our NY trip was Helene Hanaff. How I loved her. I still have all her books and would love to read them again.

I've had such a good time lurking and reading everybody's comments. But I had to comment on Helene Hanff. We've recently re-watched the movie of 84 Charing Cross Road - it is SO special. Those two books were my mother's favorites, and have certainly been on my favorites list. I didn't remember about the others. I'll have to look for those. Thanks.

Like the rest of you, SeniorNet occupies a big segment of my time. I love explaining to my flesh-and-blood friends, that I also have a terrific group of "virtual friends". And it's just an extra treat when we do get to meet one another in person.

Ok, Murdoch in hand, and a whole archive to follow along with, and get to know Lorrie as you all did. Thanks so much gals for the help! Greatly appreciated.

Beverly Cleary is absolutely my favorite children's/youth author. I loved reading about Ramona Quimby and the other kids on KLickatat Street--both to myself and aloud to my children, grandchildren and my elementary school students. After I started reading those aloud in class, many previously uninterested readers began checking out the books and reading along with me and sometimes getting ahead of the chapters I was reading. What a wonderful experience for the kids and for me. Thank you, Mrs. Sherlock, for providing the link to Cleary's home page.

Pedln, was Cleary as fascinating as a speaker as a writer? How did she express her displeasure at the Ramona dolls? Did she feel it was a form of plagiarism? When you were a librarian, weren't her books popular with young people?

I missed the program on NPR today which had a birthday interview with her. I was surprised to learn that she is still living. Ninety is quite a milestone. Sue

I missed the ineterview today too. Scott Simon and Daniel Pinkwater have kept me up to date on children's lbooks, especially the funny ones. . Scott has a young daughter.

Pedln! Well done, what a mind you have, absolutely right! May Sarton! Have never read one of hers, but Judy sure has and Judy, and her new dog Miss Martha are a hoot out there in Seattle, it's some sort of Poo, they are very popular now.

Yes Helene Hanff will always be a big regret with me, how I wish we had somehow contacted her before her death, but we were new in the Book business and somewhat shy, shame, that. I agree that was magic.

Mary what a beautiful sentiment, also, and I agree. There's more to the internet than blogs, there actually ARE real people and real conversation, you've all made this place THE place, really, for readers. Good for you. Good for us all.

Thank you, Mabel (Jean). Yes, Moorestown, voted, what was it, the Best Town to Live in, in America! Jeepers! (Well I know they have the best cream doughnuts, anyway). Ahahaha We have some people about to visit Philly, what would be YOUR recommendations for sight seeing? In order? (Besides Moorestown's Doughnuts) ahahaha

I always think of Longwood Gardens, once Washington's Crossing and Gettysburg are out of the way. Do you think of Longwood as close to you?

And Scootz and Mabel mention the Archives. Marjorie, one of our Books Volunteers, has done an incredible job arranging those books but my GOSH there are a million of them. Do you realize how MANY books we've READ over the years? Flabbergasting!

We have a LOT to celebrate!

Am enjoying SpringCreekFarm's (Sue) (how are you doing, Sue??!?) thoughts and Mrs. Sherlock's on another new (to me) author I never heard of! This is the place to come to hear about authors!! Well read bunch here, for sure!

Kleo I'm thinking there is another term, but you are right on the Latin there, and your description is absolutely spot on for the Brown and his specious reasoning! It's just that way.

You know jet lag is a strange thing. You feel fine? You seem to operate in real time but your mind is simply not there. For instance you are fine unless you have to think, then it's like being sleep deprived. I was thinking, what would you think of this? Kind of a running game just along with your sparkling "All Books Considered" conversation, based on Pedln's somehow managing to figure out what the heck I was talking about with those awful hints, we might try a silly game here (like Monty Python's Silly Walks) along with all our other comments.

For instance you give a description, just in passing, no big thing, about something we've read? For instance, what was the book we read where the plot involved a woman who finally got to go on a trip with friends and it did not turn out at all as she had hoped?

??

We might give clues (now you would have had to BE in that discussion or to have read the book, and it should be a book we HAVE read in the last 10 years) but it might be fun, to fool around with it, and sort of to the occasion of our 10th anniversary too, that is, in remembering all those billions of books read?

AND when you hear the plot YOU might be intrigued and you might want to read THAT book, yourself: a new book for you?

Or YOU might say, which book involved a lending library in a store where people paid small fees to take out books (I don't remember the title myself hahahaa). Or people being sent to a sanitarium on a high mountain in Switzerland? Then people would guess and then whoever guessed would give maybe another off the cuff clue? Just silly fun.

How about which book discussion had people taking parts as they read about a long pilgrimage?

How about which book opens with the protagonist in the middle of a family picnic but unhappy with her lot?

You would actually be only giving clues from your OWN perspective, that is, what YOU got out of it? And in doing this I am actually surprised at what I AM remembering about a book which somebody else might not have even focused on, this might be interesting.

It's like discussing a movie with a friend and you say, I'll tell you, tho, the part where he showed that he really did hate all of mankind was searing for me, and then your friend says, what? Where was THAT? And you saw the same movie. And you explain and she says, oh no, I didn't think that at all, I thought XXXX and YYYY, no no, no.

So you could give your own remembrance on it. People remember strange things about books. And then when somebody does guess it they could say, I thought she was actually worried about her health or something?

Which book is actually about ambition and thwarted idealism? Hmmm? Maybe courage when hope is gone? Maybe there is more than one, supposedly there are only …Deems will know….XXX plot lines in the world?

Might be fun? Might not?

Pedln you figured out the book from clues that were awful, want to think on a book that stuck in your own head which we have discussed in the last 10 years and ask a question on it?

Might be fun, might not, but it might make a fun ADDITIONAL conversation piece, we've already got great games in our Games section where the insufferable Book Wizard for instance, is definitely winning so far.

Can't wait to go down and get the NY Times today. Started The Middle Aged Woman Strikes Back or something by the same author of Revenge of the Middle Aged Woman, I like it. It's about a Minister's wife in England, not so sure she's happy with her lot. It's the same woman who wrote the book on Beatrix Potter a while back that everybody was raving over.

So what WAS the book which started out with a lending library in a store?

Hi Ginny,

I am going to take a cold or hot guess. Is it "The Bookshop" by Penelope Fitzgerald?????

Hats, good morning! That is not the book I was thinking of but it's a good guess, what do YOU remember most from that book? That was a stunner, has everybody here read that one? I absolutely love Penelope Fitzgerald, but not everybody appreciates her spare style.

Middle aged woman wants to start a book shop. What can be the harm in that? Remember that old song, "no it isn't very pretty what a town without pity can do?"

Ginny,

I would make the first wrong guess!

Now I will have to go and pack up courage and come back another day. It is a fun idea. I will enjoy reading all of the questions and answers. You know I love games, prizes or no prizes. It's just having a doggone good time.

My memory is terrible. All I really remember is the cold treatment the woman received from the town. The people in the town seemed very different, very withdrawn, quiet, not quick to welcome in new people. I hope my memory has not totally gone to the dogs.

hahaha no there is NO right or wrong HERE, that's for sure, the Bookshop sure was about a shop and books, no doubt about that, that's what I remember about Fitzgerald's The Bookshop too, just what you've said. That's not the one I was thinking of tho, but when it's revealed what that one was people will probably say, THAT'S not in the book! hahahaa

I think it's interesting what people do and don't get out of books, somebody else might read The Bookshop and have come away with a positive feeling? I didn't. Did you?

But she was determined, I seem to remember, which again says something for being middle aged, and that of course says something about all of us, but I forget how it ended?

What was the big problem with the town? Wasn't it just one person and her own jealousy or? What I remember is their hatefulness. Of course small towns can be hateful. Agatha Christie always said you can find anything in a small town you can find anywhere.

Your turn! Give us a similar thing from a book YOU remember, something that stuck out for you in any book you've read here on SN?

Ginny, we LOVE Longwood Gardens. The first time we were in the area, our plan was to go to Longwood Gardens, The Brandywine Museum, and Winterthur. After going to Longwood, we went to the Brandywine to see the Wyeths and eat lunch. Then we scrapped Winterthur and went back to Longwood. It's a magnificent place.

Ginny, I love games and think it's a 'swell idea" LOL. I don't know the bookshop one, but I think the sanitarium one might be THE MAGIC MOUNTAIN? Just a guess.....

I started looking at the archives for THE SEA THE SEA. You were right in the thick of that one, Ginny! Great fun for me to follow along as i read. The writing is fabulous.

I also recently read the most recent Booker prize winner, THE SEA (only once here) by Banville. I didn't care for it much. Hated THE ACCIDENTAL, and loved the Ishiguro nominee (NEVER LET ME GO). The other short listers didn't appeal to me.

Anyone else like to read award winners?

Hats, I was thinking Fitzgerald too, but couldn't come up with any of her titles.

For the most part, my memories of book discussions here are pleasant and positive, but I also remember one where we pretty hard on the author for leaving her children.

Pedln,

I remember that one. Are you thinking of "Icebound?"

Oh super, that's the ticket! Absolutely right, Scootz, on the Magic Mountain! Well done, that's some kind of book, isn't it? Interminable, matched the plot actually.

Mary, have you seen the fireworks there at Longwood? During the summer? They are out of this world, of course I have not been in years but I can still see those lily pads, do you think Longwood is a good day trip out of Philly?

Like all good games, let's tweak this one as we go to fit us, let's talk PLOT. Let's call it Pick a Plot!...At first let's use the Archives, there must be 500 books there read and since not all of us have read every one of them!?! We can't discuss what happened in the discussions (because none of us were in all of them), but the plot is there for anybody who reads, whether or not they participated in our discussions, let's just concentrate on a plot issue.

Might be fun, anybody with google can see if their guess might work too.

For instance, suppose I come to SeniorNet's Books for the first time today! I see The Ancient Mariner in there, I may not have read that with the SeniorNet discussions, but I remember it from high school, I think, so I'd say what book contains a Random Act of Violence with serious repercussions? Something like that? Little puzzle to ponder. The answers, that is the title of the book we seek, are all in the Archives??

?? So it's fair for all, and really does not involve a lot of "memory." THEN those who did take part might give something (or not) from the discussion like how Maryal and Jonathan were banished, he to the Crow's Nest and she walked the plank for insubordination?

Might encourage others to read in our next book discussion so they, too, can walk the plank?? hahahaa

Scootz, fire away, you're up on deck! Pick a Plot!

Thank you all for helping make this work!

Pedln I think (we can have a billion of them going at once while we discuss anything else on earth on our minds about Books here and reading) that's the same one as the woman at the picnic, not sure? NO! I think Hats is right!?!

I'm a relative newcomer to SN but can second all the compliments being paid to it - it's proving to be a winner with me.

Pick a Plot sounds like fun. I havn't investigated the Archives yet so don't know what's there but I have read a few books here and there and will give the game a go.

Scootz - I enjoy reading award winners sometimes - specially the Booker - its interesting to read some of the earlier winners to see how they've worn over the years. Sometimes I find on rereading a book I hated at the time it won the prize that it has somehow come into its own and I appreciate it more years later - maybe it's me who's changed.

Ginny, we did see the fountain display one evening, years ago - in conjunction with a Gershwin concert, as I remember. Spectacular. I would think that would be a good day trip from Philadelphia - although I've not stayed in Philly.

PEDLN and HATS: I remember the Icebound discussion and the focus that was given to the fact she left her children.

Anyone looking for the Archives can scroll down the Main Books Page and the link is near the bottom. For your convenience I have put a couple of links here:

Archives of Past Discussions

Fiction & Literature Archives

Nonfiction Archives

Please note: Some of the graphics are missing in the Archives and sometimes the pages will scroll because of changes to the SeniorNet software and website. Sorry for any inconvenience.

I remember a discussion (one of the first I found in Books) where the characters spent time in an internment camp for the Japanese during World War II.

Ok, here's my Pick a Plot:

in which one sister has her own "wailing wall"

Cathie, who is hoping she didn't make it too easy

That must be the sister called May! Is that it, Cathie?

That's the spirit, gumtree! Jump right in!

Yikes!!! TWO good ones! Thank you, Marjorie for those super links to the Archives!!

YIKES!!

I noticed in the new glass bookstore in Rome that they had all the latest Man Booker prizes well out for (and those nominated) well out for viewing, I don't see displays like that here, do you all? In other words, I love to read the Bookers, but have a heck of a time finding them in a group in a bookstore, are there any bookstores which group prize winners so you can see what DID win? I know I can look it up and take my own list, but it would be nice to have them all there in many piles and displays.

Mary, I am remembering that there was sound and colored lights on the fountains, too, quite a display at Longwood, which is really to die for. I think they have one tree of every kind...I'm not sure where, in America? They even had Copper Beeches, which you don't see much anywhere any more.

Japanese Internment Camp!!

Wailing Wall (one sister?) wow! Good 'uns! I have no jet lagged clue hahaha Let's see who does, love it.

Bubble, May? I am totally stumped! May who?

Ginny, May ... the bees keeper, you remember? lol I'll let you guess the title...

May's sisters are June and August.

OH!!!!! For Pete's sake! Good 'un, if so!

Marjorie, was that internment camp in Thailand?

Scootz,

That has to be "Secret Life of Bees" by Sue Monk Kidd.

Marjorie,

I am glad you remember "Icebound." Didn't Ella lead the discussion?

Apparently, I made it waaaaaaay too easy. Yes, Bubble, May is the gal. And btw- I thought her idea was super and have wanted my own wailing wail since.

Scootz, you can have your "wailing can" if you want.

Take an old empty soup can that you will reserve for that purpose. Whenever you have a worry, a problem, a nagging, write it down on a piece of paper. Put it in the soup can and with a match, lit it till it goes away in smoke. (do that in the kitchen sink!) You can keep the ashes if you want in a nice little urn...

All of us here know that there is no such thing as "delete." Whenever we delete something on the computer, actually it goes "somewhere." When you turn your paper into ashes, where does the worry go?

Robby

Why, Robby, it rides with the smoke up to THE wailing wall... As soon as you see the smoke, you should feel relief.

Now with the computer era, you can even stick that piece of paper on the site of the real Wailing Wall if you want. I personally would find the cyber way less satisfying.

Holy Smoke! That makes me feel relieved.

Robby

You are hereby ordered to stay awake very very late tonight. Then go to bed; then get up really early tomorrow. You will feel awful tomorrow, and then the jet lag will disappear.

You need immediate treatment because up there in a message, giving examples for the new game, you said you came upon "The Ancient Mariner," and then said you hadn't read the poem with this group but you could remember it from high school. . . . . .

Dr. Deems diagnoses serious Jet Lag!

M'dear, Ginny, hello, you LED the discussion of "The Ancient Mariner."

~Maryal

Bubble,

There ya go! Sounds like a good idea to me. Up in smoke- poouf! gone! I like it.

There was an interesting-sounding book on our Book Review Page in today's paper: 'Sex Wars: A Novel of the Turbulent Post-Civil War Period" by Marge Piercy. Here's Amazon's page for it, and a couple of reviews. I've put it on my list to watch for at the library.

Sex Wars

(Somebody, please change this into the short clickable form - I'm not where I have the formula written down.

Thanks.)

Sex Wars : A Novel of the Turbulent Post-Civil War Period by Marge Piercy

Kleo

Maryal, I KNOW led the Mariner, this is why you walked the plank then~!

hahaha

NO, I was "showing by example," how any reader, who comes here to us can immediately play the game? I'm not sure what it's called but I'm PROJECTING! I'll make that more clear in my post before your comrade in Rebellion comes back from whatever mountain he's climbing now and joins you on the deck!

Ginny you need to go to bed.

Yes Ginny,

You do need to go to bed. I think my jet lag is about gone now and You have been back longer than I have. ( at least I think you have) Maybe I am not over it after all.

I thought you all might like to see the latest addition to my extended family. Just click on Alyssa Morgan to see her.

Joan Grimes

What a beautiful granddaughter, Joan. And such a lovely name, Alyssa Morgan. She looks so sweet and peaceful.

I just clicked on the link to see Alyssa Morgan and got a message that I "do not have edit access for this link". Is there another way I can see it? Sue

Yeah, what's the deal, I can't see it either. No fair posting pictures of grandchildren for just an exclusive in-club. Release the picture now!

Kleo

Well, I have no idea why you can't see it Sue. Maybe Marcie will come back by and help us find out why you can't see it. I just posted a link to it. It is posted in Photos Then and Now. Post #2.

Kleo, I don't know why you think I would put a link to it if I did not want everyone to see it. That is ridiculous.

Joan Grimes

Try this Alyssa Morgan

or this Alyssa Morgan

What a sweet baby, try this link: Alyssa Morgan

Whoops! Pat and I are posting at EXACTLY the same time, I don't believe I've ever seen that on SN. I've seen people say "oh we were posting at the same time," but never have I seen the actual same time to the minute, it's usually a minute or two different. wow. For that reason I'll leave this one: three heads are better than one, right? Isn't that a Scottish song?

Thanks for the links, PatW. Alyssa Morgan is a beautiful baby. Sue

I'm kidding Joan, I was just pointing out that I couldn't see it either. Egads!

Kleo

So many people posting this weekend! Wow!

Ginny: Re does anyone remember "no it isn't very pretty what a town without pity can do?"....

Wasn't that a Gene Pitney song? Didn't he just die?

BUBBLE: The internment camp I mentioned was here in California.

HATS: Ella and I were both discussion leaders for Icebound. My main interest was that she had breast cancer because I am a breast cancer survivor myself.

I have put the links to the archives in the heading right under the colored part and above the links to the Bookstore, Books Main Page, Guidelines, and Suggestions.

Marjorie, Then it is not The bridge on the river Kwai, which was what I was thinking for that clue. Still thinking!

Marjorie: are you talking about "Snow Falling on Ceders"?

KLEO: glad you agree with me about the "De Vinci". It was me, not JoanG that talked about standards of evidence. Too bad there were so many Joans in our generation -- it was confusing in High School and it's still confusing.

I read one Iris Murdoch, can't remember the name, but something about the Green Knight, since it had references to Gawain and the Green Knight. I had mixed feelings about it. I'm anxious to see what you think.

I love Anne George too. Perfect for anyone with a sister (although Pat and I are nothing like those two, of course). These are detective stories, and don't claim great literary merit, but they're a hoot. Unfortunately, she has passed away so there won't be any more.

Marjorie,

It was a wonderful discussion. It is another one I will always remember.

Joan Grimes,

What a sweet baby. Her name is pretty too. Congratulations.

Ctn someone tell me where I go to get answers about the preferences settings working/not working?

GINNY, the lending library you mean (I think) was mentioned in Ursula Hegi's Stones from the River. These small lending libraries were privately owned and popular in that era.

JOAN G, a precious new baby in the family! Congratulations ! Is Alyssa Morgan Chloe's sister ?

Traude,

I haven't read "Stones from the River." Thanks for a reminder of that title.

Ginny, I read all of F. Scott Fitzgerald in my late 20's and early 30's. I think he appeals to that age group. I thought he was very romantic at best.. His life was more interesting in many ways. I read not only Beloved Infidel, but also two books on Zeldas life.. What a sad sad woman. But nuts for sure. Just got back from a few days away and still trying to catch up again. Joan G.,, We were in Italy for two weeks, so not likely to do the DaVinci thing in France. My next trip to France will be on a barge in wine country.. Already decided, just not which boat.

I love this guess the plot -- it either brings back memories or gives good suggestions for future reading.

And speaking of future reading, what do you all do to make sure you have time for reading? Strange question, I'm sure, but sometimes it seems days go by and other than the pre-sleepy time read, I haven't read a thing.

Years ago, as a young mom, before I started working, I did not think it proper to read in the morning. Mornings were for work, by golly -- cook, clean, etc. And that silly notion lasted long into retirement. But now, for 2006, I've started going to Panera (bakery, etc.) for roll and coffee once a week when I get up, just me, and I take my bag of books and read. And I love it.

What's your favorite time to read? Where's your favorite place to do it?

Scootz, you can post in the Problems or Comments re Discussions or Web Site discussion about your problem with preferences or you may email me.

The Ten Most Harmful (?) Books of the 19th & 20th Century (question mark is mine) as chosen by The National Conservative Weekly.

http://www.humaneventsonline.com/article.php?id=7591

What's your favorite time to read? Where's your favorite place to do it?

I understand completely about time going by and no reading is done. I need to set time to read or this happens to me, too. I have set aside after lunch for reading. I have lunch at the same time, and try to read for an hour from 1-2. I can really get a lot read in an hour. If I'm reading more than one book for different groups, then I also read in the morning with my coffee. Usually, this is a set number of pages. Doing groups/discussions has really forced me to schedule reading times, pages. I never read at bedtime any more. Have to be in a chair, with a lap desk due to my arthritic hands.

Hi Mary Z,

I bet that's a fun link.

I can't wait to look at it.

Hi Pedln,

I like to read and think about two or three o'clock in the morning. When morning comes, there is always so much to do to start the day. Plus, it takes time for my mind to get going.

Hi to everyone ~
The plot game sounds like fun, if I can figure it out!
There were about 68 posts in here when I came in today; y'all have been posting like crazy this weekend.

I love, love, love Longwood Gardens!
When we lived in Philly, we'd take the kids there for the day!
Somewhere I have a ton of snapshots of the kids playing around the water steps and the water lily ponds!

My other favorite is the Chicago Botanical Gardens, out in the northern suburbs in or near Ravenia, where summer music programs are performed.
Have any of you been there? It's gorgeous!

Reading time? One of the joys of being retired is being able to sit down and read after lunch! When I had kids at home, I never read before evening, except newspapers! As if it were a rule. And now I try never to finish a novel in only 2 days, but to make it last. Another rule.

You folks have been "talking" like a gaggle of geese!!! (I've always loved that phrase "g-of-g")

Longwood Gardens! YES! If you have time Winterthur, yes!

If you haven't been in Phila in the last 5 yrs - the National Cosntitution Center, they're doing a special about Ben Franklin in his 300th yr;

if you are a music lover, try to see a concert at the Kimmel Theater, it's wonderful;

go across the bridge to Adventure Aquarium in Camden.NJ, it's not huge, but their new "River" display w/ hippos is not to be missed.

Want to see a great copper beech? Go to Mt Laurel - right next to Ginny's hometown of Moorestown and less than a half hour from PHila - and see Alice Paul's family home on Hooten Rd. You can just picture Alice and her siblings playing under the great spread of the c.b. on a warm summer day. You can get a tour of her restored house and hear some women's history. For info go to

http://www.alicepaul.org/

MaryZ - Sex Wars sounds great, thanks for the tip. Alice Paul follows Eliz C. Stanton and Susan B Anthony as a great leader of the suffrage movement and the organizer of parades and demonstrations at the White House to win women the right to vote. Then she got 3 law degrees in order to try to get women into the constitution thru an Equal Right Amendment. She spent her whole life fighting for women's rts. She was a friend of Margaret Sanger, who is mentioned in the Sex Wars review, and all the women you can think of who were fighting to expand people's rts during the 20th century, Eleanor Roosevelt, Pearl Buck, etc.

MaryZ - that list of "harmful" books was a hoot!!! My laugh for the day! It's amazing how people can have such differing viewpoints about events and literature. We see it clearly in this list, we see it clearly as we talk here about what books each of us likes or dislikes..........thank you all.......jean

MaryZ, What a hoot! that would make a great seminar, analyzing those books. Nice to see thay had a token woman; Phyllis Schlaffly can hold her own anytime.

Mary Z, one understands why you put up the question mark. That was a hoot, as described by Mrs. Sherlock. But no fiction! What works do you think this group (not SeniorNet) might have included if they were choosing fiction?

Interesting to see that Phyllis Schlafly was one of those consulted. Apparently she is still a very busy woman, still writing a monthly newsletter. The NY Times had a biographical update on her last week, but it's one of their "selects" so I can't link it. However, here's a link to a January, 2006 review of a recent biography.

Phyllis Schlafly and Grassroots Conservatism: A Woman's Crusade, by Donald T. Critchlow

LINK

"She was raised in St. Louis by a working mother who kept her family afloat after her husband lost his job in the Great Depression. She was encouraged to excel academically by both her parents, who, Critchlow writes, believed "their daughters should not be any less ambitious or educated than boys." "

She does everything she preaches to other women not to do!?! .....

I read anytime, anywhere i get a chance......in bank lines, at Friendlys when I'm there alone, in bed, during commercials on tv, while knitting, when tv is just the pits, in the bathroom, out on my patio getting some vitamin D, at the park enjoying the animals - human and otherwise..........jean

Was the adjective meant to be tongue-in-cheek, I wonder ? Who would or could possibly question the danger (!) posed by Betty Friedan's seminal work "The Feminine Mystique" ?

I remember Phyllis Schlaffly's vigorous opposition to the Equal Rights Amendment in the seventies. Tbe American Association of University Women fought for it, hard, and I was one of the fighters. It passed here in Massachusetts but failed overall, largely because of Schlaffly's efforts. Women still make less money than men do for the same jobs.
We have come a long way - MAYBE.

"Das Kapital" might be instructive because, after all, capitalism is based on the theories propounded by Marx and Engels, but who in God's name would even WANT to read "Mein Kampf" ? Or Mao's ruminations ?
One would have to check the political persuasion of those who thought it worthwhile to compile that list (and presumably spent money for doing so). Are they afraid of the ideas expressed in those 'dangerous'books and why?

There are so many other (and IMHO much more important) issues that occupy the world in these troubled times about which something ought to be done instead - NOW.

As for fiction, one would have to use a different adjective, I believe; something like "undesirable", or "controversial". Coarseness and sexual explicity is now considered a selling factor, even a necessity. As in movies, anything goes. But how to guard against that? When is enough enough ?

Traude, I think that unfortunately, the term dangerous, as used for that list, was not meant to be tongue-in-cheek, but was the result of ultra-conservative research and thinking.

However, it did put me in mind of two books by Robert Downs, circa 1970, that were on the shelves of our high school library -- Books That Changed the World and Books That Changed America. The titles included in these volumes were not deemed dangerous or safe or good or bad, but were included because they were influential. Two titles that I remember were Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe and Upton Sinclair's The Jungle. One can easily understand why. Ida Tarbell's History of the Standard Oil Company also comes to mind, but I'm not sure if it was included.

I read down through the consultants who came up with this list and the only name I recognized was Phyllis Shaffley.

And lest any of you conclude that I am an academic and therefore not conservative, I listen to Book TV quite frequently on the weekends and they have a number of conservative authors. I don't see those names here either.

Did you all look down at the list of other "candidates"?

One of them is The Origin of Species.

ACCCK!

I didn't attend this discussion for two weeks and I missed what feels like a century of discussion and inumerable interesting topics. I have been esconced in THE CURIOUS MINDS site (Under Books). The discussion has been a wonderful walk down memory lane led by Tom. The subject is "Games" and oh, what a lively and humorous time we have had.

Traude- I will respond to you and tellyou how much I enjoyed "Stones from the River" by Ursula Hegi. My real (as opposed to on line book club) read it at my suggestion and allthought it was marvelous with a great discussioon ensuing afterwards. The book is unforgettable.

Judy

Deems, I didn't recognize any others either, nor the majority of their institutions. I guess they must have been serious, but it's hard to believe. "Unsafe at Any Speed"?

I have over the years read The Communist Manifesto, Mein Kampf, Quotations from Chairman Mao (commonly known as the Red Book), the Kinsey Report, Democracy and Education, The Feminine Mystique, the Population Bomb, On Liberty, Beyond Freedom and Dignity, the Origin of Species, Coming of Age in Samoa, Second Sex, Silent Spring, Introduction to Psychoanalysis, Greening of America, and Descent of Man. I read these through from cover to cover.
Do I believe every single sentence said in each of these books? No. Do I agree with some of the things that were written? Yes. I use critical thinking as I read books, magazines, and newspapers. Can a book be harmful? Not in my estimation. Only our behavior can be harmful.
Most of these books were in my home library. In recent years I have given some of them to SNetters through our book exchange. I hope I haven't polluted any of your minds.

Robby

I was a working mum from when my children were tiny. However I have changed my thinking since I have seen my daughter and daughters in law either working only 15 hrs out of the home or not working at all. I am now a fan of mothers nurturing children until they begin school. I see the bond that is formed between mother and child and the happiness of the children. I am all for parents raising their own children rather than a nursery raising children. If it is economically possible I would like to see parents stay home. If parents want a high powered career plus children I think the children are disadvantaged.

I am appalled to hear young mothers talking at functions and saying that they go to work to get away from the toddlers. Why did they have them in the first place? It is not for the feint hearted being a mother. I think if one cannot stand the heat then they should have kept out of the kitchen. Until I observed the mothering of "my young mothers" my ideas were opposed to the ideas I have now. The proof is in the pudding in my opinion.

Stay home mothers are now regarded as the abnormal mothers. They are the rebels of the 21st century and the non conformists of today!

Carolyn

ROBERT, like you, I read a book and feel free to agree or disagree, usually some of both. I have been appalled, however, to discover how many people assume that if it's in a book, it must be true. After all, if it wasn't true, they couldn't print it, could they?

However, there's not much one can do about that. I am also slightly nervous with the knowledge that enthuiastic, passionate young people, looking for for a cause, are capable of swallowing whole things that could cause them a lot of future acute indigestion. [Intellectually and emotionally.] Yet, I was free to read whatever caught my interest when I was young, and I would be the last to deny that privilege to anyone else.

Babi

KIWI, I was always very grateful that I was able to stay at home and raise my children. I wouldn't have missed it for the world, watching them grow and develop into the people they have become.

Babi

The book I was thinking of was not Snow Falling on Cedars. It was Silent Honor by Danielle Steele. I guess not many of the people who are here right now were in the discussion in 1998.

I don't often read the "most popular" books. I will have to think of another discussion that would have had more of you as participants.

Traude, unfortunately, I don't think they meant it as "tongue in cheek". I think they were absolutely serious. To me, that's what makes it scary. It made me think of the yearly event when librarians and booksellers make displays of banned books. I guess I knew (or hoped) what the reaction of this bunch would be to ANYBODY suggesting censorship.

I remember a book that was discussed that was set in the 1900s and featured scientists and a psychopath.

Marjorie, I had to read through about 15 posts and was going to tell you that the book was written by Danielle Steele, but not of her usual topics. I couldn't remember the title, though.

Mary Z and all you other discerning readers: Let's hear it for the small-minded folks who developed the "Dangerous Books" list. All together now: BBLLLLLWWW (this is a big raspberry)! Sue

SUE: I thought you might be the one to identify the book. I guess I could have waited for your next post.

I'm with you, Sue! John, too.

There they go again, telling us what not to do, while they do what we are not supposed to! Or did they pick these books without reading them?

Oh super super discussions here, and topics!! Great for YOU Traude, you got Stones From the River and the little Lending Library, good job! Well done!

Marjorie, this is sooo bizarre, Snow Falling on Cedars was also about Japanese Internment Camps (I had to look it up and on IMDb, which I love, do you all know about it?? ) They had this about the movie:

Goofs: Factual errors: They are shown going into Manzanar Relocation camp. Washington state residents were relocated to Minidoka camp in Idaho. Island residents were sent early to Manzanar. Residents on the mainland (such as our family from Seattle) were later sent to Minidoka.

I seem to remember quite a bit about the Manzanar Relocation Camp! hahaha Who KNEW there were 2?

Mary Going Out of Town! 10 Most Harmful Books! Isn't that something?! Oh Coming of Age in Samoa. Isn't that interesting? I thought that recently they found that was fabricated, is that what you all understood? Would that make it harmful then, if it's not true?

It's amazing what interesting topics you find here every day!

I'm wondering what's wrong with Silent Spring, scared me half to death I know that.

Stephanie, you really HAVE read Fitzgerald. I was very surprised how young he was when he died? He really wrote a lot to have died so young.

I don't even know who Zelda, is, should I admit that in public? Probably not. Why IS it that we miss some authors?

There's a sort of game on another site which asks people What Are the Most Famous Books You Didn't Read?

I guess for me it would have to be the Fitzgerald books. ALL of them! Although I'm not sure. I missed a LOT of children's books that everybody else on earth read, including Narnia.

" I love this guess the plot -- it either brings back memories or gives good suggestions for future reading.". I agree, Pedln, it's so fun.

I liked your question about what we do to make time to read and your solution:

I've started going to Panera (bakery, etc.) for roll and coffee once a week when I get up, just me, and I take my bag of books and read. And I love it.

I LOVE that! Maybe we should ask also what's the most fun location for reading you have found?? It might be interesting to know where people most enjoy curling up with a good book. (I am fascinated by the different times of DAY you all read, Scootz, Mippy and Early Bird Hats!!!)

Food and books. To me they go together. Note the B&N little cafeterias or coffee shops, all of them full of people eating and reading the merchandise. I always let my children read at meals when we weren't having family dinners, just them at lunch or whatnot. I've recently read that is the WORST thing, never do that, but they are big readers to this day. I am not sure what the issue is (not talking, but reading??!!?? ) that makes reading at the table such a no no, but I also read that reading while eating makes you eat more? That's a shame because I always read when I eat by myself. (What does THAT tell us?) Food and books go well together unless you slobber. Hahahaa

I guess my favorite place of all time (Mabel) was the Library at the Community Center at Moorestown. I'd sit in a niche which was sort of a window niche in that gothic building and read by the light of the window. Quiet, private and magic. And thank you Mabel (Jean) for those super suggestions on things to do near Phily! Have emailed them to several people.

OK here's a new Pick a Plot: (of pickled peppers?) hahahaa I just read this information yesterday and I did not know it (or if I did once, I had long forgotten it, but it pertains to US here). Give this one a whirl!

You need not have been IN the discussion to recognize this book, but it's famous for several reasons:

Which book located in our Fiction Archives (see link under the colorful heading above...thank you Marjorie!) is considered to be a take on or a modern version of The Odyssey!?!!!! NOW! THERE is a plot line! And this information is in a new article in a magazine just out this month!

Many of the library books I borrow have food stains on the margins LOL! I suspect many people read while they eat. I am too liable to spill food if I am engrossed in a book so I no longer read at table.

Carolyn

MRS SHERLOCK: I am confused by your comment. I have read the books I mentioned. I just haven't read the ones that other people mentioned.

GINNY: I wonder how many other books in our Archives have similar plots. I hadn't read Snow Falling on Cedars so did not know that plot. Interesting that both were about internment camps.

Of course, even in the books I read plots are similar and get the final story varies quite a bit depending upon the author.

JoanK,

And I do try to be Joan-careful and use a "JoanG" or "JoanK" rather than just posting "Joan."

Kleo

Kiwi lady--food stains are not the worst. I used to read in the bathtub a lot. I never actually dropped a book in, and I didn't read anything valuable, as a precaution. Nowdays, mobility problems lead to showers only, and you really can't read in the shower. I do read while eating, though.

I read when I eat at home or when I eat out and say why not I am usually alone. I read while I ride my exercise bike. Like Pat H. I used to read in the bathtub but can't get in and out of a bathtub anymore and as she says one can't read in the shower. I always read when I am in the doctor's waiting room or any place I have to wait. I don't read in bed anymore either but I used to do that. I read on a plane when I go on a trip.

Joan Grimes

One count may be the number of people murdered in the name of the idea proposed by the book. However, few, if any, of these books would have or could have only been authored by the person who wrote them.

Darwin's idea would have been put together by many more, the evidence was sitting there for the having. Mead? Plenty of others took to the field and lied about what they saw. I don't know what impact her book had, though. Freud? Well, he was rather original, as there was no science or experimentation to his conclusion, so maybe a one and only. What happened as a result of his book? Women locked up for inconvenience? Was this due to Freudian psychoanalysis? Don't know. Hitler used his book to spread his ideas and killed millions. Dangerous man? In my opinion. Communism killed untold millions. Dangerous ideas? Well, given to ordinary humans and taken to the extremes they seem to be. Rachel Carson? It wasn't her book but the response to it, and since no one listened to a word before her, she ultimately did more good than bad.

Still, humans are extremists. I tend to thing it's the humans who are dangerous, not the books which many would have written had the one not been published.

I think that humans underestimate the power of propaganda and overestimate their ability to see the response to what propaganda they produce.

Kleo

Wow! So many posts again!!!

What's your favorite time to read? Where's your favorite place to do it?

I had to laugh when I read Jean's (mabel's) answer. That's how I feel. I like to read nearly ANY TIME ANY PLACE. I am just totally a nut about reading. My husband says I have the most amazing concentration because I can read through anything without being distracted.

The first thing I do when I wake up in the a.m. is grab my glasses and my current book. I read the newspaper and then my book during breakfast when Bob is off at work. (I'm retired and have just a small part-time job from home, so I can set my own hours.) I have to really force myself to do housework, but generally I talk myself out of it and read my book - as long as I've finished SeniorNet Latin class and homework, of course!

When I travel anywhere, whether by car or by plane, I bring my book. I'm so happy that I don't get carsick reading anymore! (My husband is driving, not me, when I'm reading in the car!) I read in my dad's nursing home when I visit and he is having physical therapy. I read during TV ads and when Bob watches sports. I always read at night for one or two hours when I go to bed. I have to force myself to go to sleep because I have trouble putting the book down. I screw up my hours because I go to bed so late.

I'm so happy with this time of year because now I can read outside on the deck in the afternoon. It's my favorite place to read. It's been sunny and the birds are tweeting away. My bushes and the weeping cherry are getting ready to flower. I sit on the deck reading with a big happy smile on my face, just relaxing away. This is what retirement is all about!

A true story about the Japanese internment camps is, Farewell to Manzanar, originally published in the 1980's. This excellent book was written my Jeanne Wakatsuki Houston, who spent most of her childhood at Manzanar. She is our age now of course. I knew both Jeanne, and her husband, John Houston, when I was attending San Jose State University, in the 1950's. Both of them have written a number of other books as well.

Hooray, Kleo. People are dangerous, not books!!!

John and I read the newspaper at breakfast, and usually read something at lunch. But never at dinner - isn't that funny. Guess that goes back to when dinner was always our family time, when everybody gathered and we talked about our day.

Nowadays, I usually read when I eat alone - at home or out. And I always have a good if I think I might have to wait for something or somebody. I can't imagine anything worse than having to wait without something to read.

MaryZ, the problem is humans are so adept at finding excuses for their bad behavior. We're duking this out in Jekyll and Hyde, what a human is responsible for when he/she commits and act of evil. If Stalin hadn't had Karl Marx and Lenin, would he have been a peace-loving puff puppet? Would Pol Pot have opted not to kill? I think Mao went looking for justification for his tyranny, as did Pinochet and Castro. If it wasn't these books, they would have blamed others.

As to all those feminist books being dangerous, darn-tooting they're dangerous if you want a Stepford wife and can't find her anymore.

Kleo

Oh dear and I thought I was the only person who had dropped books in the bath! I only ever read unimportant paperbacks in the bath these days and that is not very often as I generally just jump in the shower rather than taking time to bathe.

Carolyn

and worried about getting pages wet! I also no longer take baths, but largely because i don't want to spend that much time, it's so much faster to hop in and out of the shower and it's easier to wash my hair in the shower than over a sink.

Now to the funny stuff!!! YeS! Silent Spring and Unsafe at any Speed certainly killed the economy of the U.S.! (TIC) and John Mills??? Tho'ts of liberty are always dangerous and yes, all those feminist books destroyed the status quo - thank goodnes - and we all know Darwin's theory is totally nuts and must be taken out of the cirriuclum.

Actually, it wouldn't hurt to have some people reading some Netzsche these days, but of course, this choosing group apparently can't see themselves in his thesis.

Carolyn, be cautious about listening to the anti-feminists stating "feminist" theory. I have been a feminist since......birth?...and i have never heard another feminist put down a woman who choose to stay home and not work outside the home. In fact, some of the most ardent feminists i know did just that. The basis of the feminist cause was that every woman have the CHOICE to do whatever it was she wished to do. For those who choose to have a career, they should have the opportunity to have whatever career they would like to try. For those who wanted to work outside the home part of the time, that opportunity should be available and for those who choose to work in the home, that was a perfectly appropriate choice. Society should not set the limits, the woman's abilities and desires should determine the limits - if any........the people on that harmful book list and others like them have time and again distorted what the feminist cause was all about. Yes, there are extremists in every movement, and there were and are some in the women's mvmt, but the basis for the contemporary feminist movement has always been about CHOICE.......JEAN

There is definately an expectation in our society here that a woman should work. This has been very prevalent in the last decade or so. It is a definate expectation that a woman should do part time work at the very least.

I hear especially the women 25 -35 expressing astonishment that anyone should want to give up their job and stay home to care for their little ones. I don't know what its like where you live but here it is a definate expectation that a woman should make a financial contribution to the family.

Carolyn

If there had been no books to read at home when I was a child, I might have been illeterate considering the schooling I received and books have been a saving force in my life.

I am still chuckling at Mabel's "and we all know Darwin's theory is totally nuts and must be taken out of the curriculum." If we go by Robby's discussion we haven't reached the part about human beings yet, and because I had never read 'Origins' before I am waiting to see what he will say because it is widely assumed that we evolved from apes, did he really say that?

I don't believe everything I read, but I accumulate serious data for a long time before I choose to adopt a theory. Concrete evidence advanced by science is often debunked later on because a new theory has not yet proven its value and if I remember Freud created quite a stir before it was also considered archaic.

I think that those who seldom read are more likely to become swayed by a new idea, especially if it suits their current thinking, than those constantly reading which has the advantage of allowing us to verify and compare data over a long period of time.

My life will not be long enough to read all the books I would love to read and I am 'reading' through the eyes and mind of Books and Literature participants who have given me so much pleasure that I often prefer reading that than the books they are discussing.

My first serious book discussion was Democracy in America by Alexis de Tocqueville, perhaps because the author was French and I could read it in the original and I could finally understand what America was all about. I could finally start to understand Americans by they way he portrayed them. You have to understand that I never spoke or read English before I was 15 or met one Americans till I was in my late 20s.

Carolyn I also stayed home till all my children were in school and I still think this is best for them if you can afford it.

Éloïse

A recent take on the Odyssey?That sounds so familiar...I know that's a fairly recent book. Glanced through the list but no bells went off.

I'm another one who carries a book wherever I go. If hub is too long at Home Depot (when is he not)? I go to the car and read whilst he looks at the tools! LOL

I usually carry a book on a plane or car trip but can't read in either place- go figure. I guess it's "just in case".

Whew, I read all the time everywhere, like many of you. I am always panicked at the thought I might not have a book to read when I sit and wait for things, so always keep a book in the car. Ginny.. Zelda was F. Scott's wife.. Beautiful crazy and wanted to write herself. She ended up in the nut house.. A very complicated woman, who he adored, but could not live with successfully. I love Margaret Meade. The consensus on the Samoa was that she was a young woman and did not understand that the people were giving her fairy tales. She matured and it never happened again. She is a personal heroine of mine, so I sort of keep track.

yes Ginny, ahs Stephanie says, Zelda was F. Scott Fitzgerald's wife. She was the beautiful daughter of an Alabama Supreme Court Associate Justice. Fitzgerald met her when he was in the army stationed at Camp Sheridan, near Montgomery, Alabama. To read more click on Zelda Fitzgerald. There is an annual event in Montgomery, AL which honors Zelda and F. Scott Fitzgerald.

I never read Fitzgerald in school. I read him first when I began teaching American Literature and had to teach The Great Gatsby.

Joan Grimes

I do my reading wherever I can. My problem is staying up too late at night reading, and then finding it difficult to get up.

Years ago, I kept a book in each grain truck, so at harvest I could read while waiting in line at the grain elevator. It isn't a good idea, though, to read while you are plowing, it is too easy to forget to turn at the end of the row; then you plow out a fence post or two.

Marilyne, Jim Houston was a senior in high school when I was a sophomore. He was so good looking! Then, at San Jose State, I saw him and Jeanne walking hand-in-hand. It always thrills me to see his name on a book, to think I almost knew him.

I've heard plenty of people who call themselves feminists disparage women who stay at home to care for their children and their husbands. There are magazine articles all the time which try to show that it is either unhealthy for the children to have a stay-at-home mom or try to show it's superior for a mother to work AND tend children. And, Carolyn, like in NZ, it's pretty much assumed a married woman will work. This may be different where others are from in the USA, but it's so common in national media that it surprises me that others have never heard it. This behavior opened doors for people like Phyllis Shafly.

An article like this is simply someone else's opinion. No matter how unpopular it is, it's still better to attack the opinion than the person, the latter does not make sense when you don't even know the people, although it can establish that you have common ground with them in a way most folks don't want to establish. I think the list was a reflection of the harm they see in certain ideas.

Communism may actually own more deaths than religion with the former's slaughter run through the first 3/4 of the 20th century. Did these books, the Communist Manifesto, etc., actually cause this murderous rampage? Or were they part of the syndrome? What was the underlying cause? I think the list raises interesting questions and shows books that will be studied by future generations far removed from our current turmoil. Wouldn't it be more worthwhile to study the meaning of the list in context of why they were chosen rather than simply apply negative labels to the authors in the way they simply applied a negative label to the books?

Still, it does seem like just another excuse for behaving badly, really really badly. "My god made me do it." "My commander made me do it." "My book made me do it."

Kleo

People can be manipulated to do things that normally they would not dream of doing by brainwashing them with fear tactics. Create fear amongst the people and you can get them to do most anything.

I have read lots of different books on different philosophies and while the books are often harmless and well meant others get hold of them and twist the contents out of context. That is when books can become dangerous because the majority of people do not read the books but listen to a charasmatic leader or person who does the manipulating of the books contents to serve their purpose.

Carolyn

On the 'disapproved books' theme, I have a favorite story. My grandkids, natch, loved "The Chronicles of Narnia". Two of them were raised in Judaism by their mother. One Jewish lady informed my ex-DIL that the 'Narnia' stories were simply Christian propaganda.

"Nah!", says my DIL. Then she goes back and re-reads the "Chronicles of Narnia". "Okay", she says, "they are Christian propaganda, but they're good Christian propaganda!"

So true! I think this was from Eloise.

I think that those who seldom read are more likely to become swayed by a new idea, especially if it suits their current thinking, than those constantly reading which has the advantage of allowing us to verify and compare data over a long period of time.

IMO, all too often those condemning books have not read the books. Kiwi Lady is exactly right. And Carolyn, I also agree completely that people can do horrendous things when frightened and panicky. Which, of course, is one of the primary goals of the terrorist.

Babi

Unless you explain the analogies in the Narnia Chronicles the average child does not get them. Therefore its perfectly possible that a Jewish child could read the chronicles and just take it to be a story of good triumphing over evil with a good bit of fantasy thrown in to make the story line riveting.

Carolyn

I sent the "dangerous" list to a friend who is a retired high school English teacher. This was her reply to me:

"I have compiled a much more dangerous list of books, for if you give a high school student these books to read, and we do, they will NEVER read anything AGAIN:

Red Badge of Courage
Ethan Frome
Silas Marner
An American Tragedy
Sister Carrie
Heart of Darkness
Les Miserables
Moby Dick
Anything by Faulkner
Anything by Hemmingway"

This is one person's opinion. What do y'all think?

Pretty grim reading for kids. However perhaps they should know about the darker side of life.

Carolyn

Silas Marner was one of the books we had to read in high school. Animal farm was another. I liked Animal Farm and thought it showed a side of human nature that is all too true. (unfortunately!)

Carolyn

Oh, good grief, half these books are what turned me on to literature. You can make any book boring. And there are plenty of kids in school who simply don't read. We had a discussion on the Hemingway list-serve about college professors trying to select books to not offend or bore the precious second-rate students in the class. I had to say that it is always a shame to try to teach to those who aren't going to learn or like anything no matter what you read and completely ignore the passions of those who devour Conrad's Heart of Darkness and journey through the human soul, Tolstoy's War and Peace and its journey through Napoleon's armies, or Crane's journey through the soul in battle, Les Miserable's journey through poverty, Sister Carrie's to journey much of anywhere grand, and Faulkner's and Hemingway's journeys to the door of modern literature.

My favorite literature teacher and class was the professor who taught me to write well about a book I hated reading and to really understand why I reacted so negatively to this book. In fact, he taught me how to be an adult and realize that the whole course and world of literature wasn't designed around me, the only one who loved Faulkner with a passion. Sometimes when you learn you have to read and write passionately about a book you don't like.

Teachers who dumb down the world of literature so students who won't be reading the books anyway do a great disservice to the students who are there to learn.

Carolyn, I love Animal Far,. Recently reread it and was very disappointed it did not read so well for an adult book club discussion--too easy. But, oh it's so true.

Kleo

Its a tale of how power corrupts! Even if power has been taken with an ideal in mind. Animal farm is a very good book and it started another discussion in class about the Russian Revolution and post revolution Russia. All my class enjoyed it at school.

Carolyn

Oh, my gosh, Mary Z. So many of the books on that list I just loved in high school - or after school.

The local book group met today to discuss "Crossing to Safety" by Wallace Stegner. (Great discussion.) Originally formed many years ago as an interest group under the auspices of AAUW, we have been together for a long time and shared many books as well as mileposts in our lives. We have no plan that is fixed in place but are always open to individual suggestions.

Thus the former group leader, my predecessor and a retired librarian, suggested today that for May we read Harper Lee's "To Kill A Mockingbird".
According to The Boston Globe, many libraries and book groups across the country are recommending and focusing on this book, again, because the issues are still with us and the story has lost none of its poignancy and relevance. The new generation may know it only from the movie - if at all.

JUDY, re your #289 regarding Ursula Hegi's "Stones from the River", yes, it was an eye-opener. But there is another book, about post-war Germany and personal retribution, which has been given much less attention but is as searing (if not more so): "The Reader" by Bernhard Schlink. The author is a jurist first and a writer second - the book is probably autobiographical.

Hegi's book became a huge success. Schlink's book, on the oher hand, had less publicity than it deserved IMHO, especially since it dealt with the nitty gritty after the fact.

Red Badge of Courage, Ethan Frome, Silas Marner, An American Tragedy, Sister Carrie, Heart of Darkness, Les Miserables, Moby Dick, Anything by Faulkner, Anything by Hemmingway"

Most of these are the books I enjoyed most in high school. I did not read Heart of Darkness or Sister Carrie, read Les Miserables, much of Faulkner, all of Hemingway, all of Thomas Wolfe, lots of Fitzgerald, all on my own free time. I do read junk novels now but also read quality literature. I had 3 great English teachers in High School and they inspired me to read anything and everything. Hurray for teachers who share their love of reading with students, even reluctant readers. Sue

P.S. Traude: Harper Lee's To Kill a Mockingbird is required reading in most Alabama high schools (she is an Alabama native). I think 9th graders are the ones reading it most often.

I think "To Kill a Mockingbird" is a powerful novel and I am sure reading this novel would be a good thing for young people. It would engender much discussion.

Carolyn

I just finished The Mask of Apollo by Mary Renault, the other Renault book that I had borrowed from my sister-in-law. (I had just finished The Persian Boy before this one.) Mask was about the Greek theater during the Golden Age and about Plato and his Academy and philosphy and about Dion of Syracuse. It was another of Renault's interesting novels about ancient times.

I was curious about how many homosexual relationships are in these stories (Alexander and Hephaestion, Plato and Dion, many Greek gods, etc.) Of course, I was wondering if that really was the case or was it made up to spice up the novels, or what? So I looked it up on the web and found some very interesting articles about these relationships. I'm probably on some sleazy porn lists now or something and will start receiving a lot of horrid spam!

Anyway, apparently, it's true. According to one article that seemed to be written by a historian, what the Greeks called "pederasty" started in Crete as a result of overpopulation. Men and women were encouraged to delay marriage in order to put off having children. Men eventually sought other relations - with boys. It became socially acceptable for Cretans and later Greeks (the practice spread) to have man/boy relations until the older man turned approx. 30. There were strict social rules around the man/boy relationship and the man was expected to be like a mentor and gift-giver. Once around 30, the man was socially obligated to leave that type of affair behind him and fulfill his obligation to marry and have children.

Well, I hope I didn't shock anyone. But, I thought this all was very interesting, especially because yesterday I read a bit of The Iliad trying to find answers for the SeniorNet Latin 102 class. And of course there was all this about the gods and their affairs! Thanks, Ginny! Look what you got me into!!

I think I'd agree with your friend about most of those books. And comparing it to what we like just really probably isn't relevant to today's kids. I'd say she probably knows whereof she speaks.

marni- you didn't shock me about the Greeks. I saw the Menendez trial! LOL

Traude- My group also did CROSSING TO SAFETY- I loved it. Have never read any of his others yet, but would like to read ANGLE OF REPOSE someday.

TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD seems like it would be a good book for today's kids. It's still relevant- guess that's why it's a classic.

My f2f group has a number of high school teachers in it. They talk quite a bit about the difficulty of finding a book for today's high school students. I can imagine it would be difficult. You're always going to have a small percentage of kids who are very bright and wouldn't object to some of those books on the list. For the most part, though, those books would be way too plodding and irrelevant to them. I don't know that "dark" would be a problem but "slow" would be.

SLOW?? Boy that hit a nerve with me, Scootz! You are absolutely right!

"I have compiled a much more dangerous list of books, for if you give a high school student these books to read, and we do, they will NEVER read anything AGAIN:"

Oooh yeah!

How well I remember slogging slogging slogging thru Matty Bumppo.

Do you all remember him? Mr. Slow Personified.

Absolutely interminable, stultifying and eye crossing, AGG AGG AGG, what on earth...the Deer Slayer? Deer Stalker? Deer Bore You to Deather? Cooper! James Fennimore Slow Cooper! You don't hear of him much now, thank goodness, but JEEZ LOUISE. Oh we read Cooper. And he wrote more than one! How could he?

In defense of today's students, it's not all their faults. Books, reading and quiet time are not something they get a lot of, everything in 2006 is electronic, media driven, PR driven, appearances are what matter, there's no substance anywhere and it's bound to show up in the literature.

The new children's books (stop by the children's section of a bookstore some time and look at the NEW ones coming out for the youngest readers ) for the most part, for the littlest and most vulnerable readers are dreck. Lots of flash, colorful drawings, no plot, no attempt at vocabulary, no rhymes for the most part, in which a child MIGHT learn language. There's an awful one out for Easter on some adventure of a chicken or something, and you read and read and look at the blazing art and absolutely no climax or reason the thing just drivels off into the sunset. The books go nowhere; they are the most anti climactic things I have ever seen. I myself can barely finish one, why should any child?

There's no pot of gold at the end of that verbal rainbow, so why read? You can see it on TV much easier or on your shoot em up computer games.

Why read, indeed?

On Margaret Mead, I was absolutely shocked to hear she had actually made up stuff. Absolutely shocked and very disillusioned, I don't know as much as many of you do about the particulars, and would like to, but she was held up to us when in school as some kind of god/pioneer, great person. I've seen her in interviews and she seemed to think so, too. Very harmful book, the particulars I did hear were not about her being misled, but deliberately making up stuff. I would say, truly, in many ways, I agree with that designation of Coming of Age in Samoa, it IS harmful, and it set anthropology back with egg on its face, too. In my (admittedly uninformed) opinion, all I remember is how we practically worshipped her findings, and her, and then conclusions were drawn which were erroneous, so we were informed deliberately erroneously.

But I wonder really if our media age hunger to make instant celebrities causes this type of thing and the reporter who just made up his findings about the inner city. (Have you read People Magazine lately? It might be interesting to take every photo and categorize who they are talking about: movie and TV stars, the latest sensational murder mystery. You can't say those are not PEOPLE, so who can argue. There's now a new magazine out, very slick, I can't recall what it's called but you can't miss it while waiting in line at the supermarket, the photographs of celebrities in it have huge arrows pointing at various parts of the "star's" anatomies talking about this big XXX, she needs to lose weight and is that a bump etc, it's horrid. It's absolutely disgusting.

I caught about 14 minutes of the Tyra Banks TV show Tuesday, have you seen that? Supposedly super models are brainless. She's not, and she was really getting ON people who were starving themselves bone thin to look like a super model, saying some pretty caustic things about the industry and the other models, I found it quite interesting. At the end she asked them, about 5 of them, if she had convinced them to get therapy. She had not.

No, appearances are all in 2006. That's why it's so rare and so fine (the real pot of gold at the end of the rainbow) TO find readers such as those assembled here, and in our SeniorNet Books area, who CAN discuss and who DO read and who DO have opinions about ideas, issues and books!

Pick a Plot V (I think this is our 5th one, we need to keep track, anybody can give one or play): Yes I was also surprised to see the Smithsonian (April 2006) article on the Odyssey mention one of the books we read in our Archives AS a modern day Odyssey, I don't think I would have made the connection! And it's a famous movie as well, shocked me. Makes you wonder what you missed and why you did not get the connection at first. Can anybody guess it? They also mention the movie Oh Brother, Where Art Thou as a parody of The Odyssey, and IT'S something else.

Interesting, Marni, on the sexual habits of the ancients, I wonder what the ancient Greeks would think of us> in 2006, don't you wish we could time warp some of them (and the MAN Julius Caesar) here for a week? Or Cicero!

Scootz, I was riveted to the Memendez Trial on Court TV, I did not believe a word of the abuse charges, did you?

I LOVE all the mental images of where you all read and how you find time to read, what a collage of images! It's amazing what a book will do for you in an airport or on a trip! I've had to stop carrying them in the car, tho, I get engrossed at stop lights and miss the change or shoot out while red, have done that several times and so the books are in the back seat!

And OH yes, wet books! One of my great pleasures when the children were younger and we spent a month every summer at New Symrna Beach, Florida, was the BEACH BOOK. Not what you're thinking, tho. It had to be paperback because there's something about the ocean? And reading on the beach? It gets the pages wet or something? They swell up and get that LOOK? The "Beach Look?" I love that, and miss it, shameful thing for a book but so fun! Sand in your book! Pull that chair right down to the water and read read read.

Our newest series, The Books with the word House in the title (we MUST get a new title for that discussion, all suggestions gratefully received!!!!!) is now open and if you'd like to nominate one, come on down and tell us about the book for a nice fun leisurely May 15 read, we've got one nomination on the floor, Brideshead Revisited, no beach book that, come give us your serious nomination, a review, a sentence from the book if you have it to hand or can get one on Amazon, or B&N and let's discuss why or why not you'd like to read it.

I'm disappointed in Wuthering Heights and that disappointment grows daily, it almost seems now (listening to it) as if it's some sort of teen age romance, I am wondering if it's the audio experience or just my geting old and cranky. I can't figure it out, because I remember loving it. Now 7 Gables I remember as fabulous. Come on down and help us title that House discussion (brain has run dry) and let's pick a good' un.

I first read "Wuthering Heights" as a teenager. I was very naive then, and didn't have the foggiest notion what the book was about. Finally I decided that since the only food the characters were shown eating was oatmeal, maybe they were all suffering from deficiency diseases, and that was why they were acting so strangely. I re-read it as an adult, and it made sense to me, but I still don't care for it much.

However, at the same age, I ate up "Les Miserables" and "Moby Dick".

Red Badge of Courage
Ethan Frome
Silas Marner
An American Tragedy
Sister Carrie
Heart of Darkness
Les Miserables
Moby Dick
Anything by Faulkner
Anything by Hemmingway

I have taught The Red Badge of Courage successfully to college freshmen. Not one I'm eager to do again though----ever.

We read Silas Marner in high school--wouldn't teach it now Ditto Ethan Frome.

I read American Tragedy in college. Wouldn't teach because of my own inability to reread it and stay awake. Ditto Sister Carrie.

I know Heart of Darkness is supposed to be a classic, but it upsets me every time I read it because I want something specific, something terrible and awe-inspiringly EVIL at the heart of darkness, or more specifically in Kurtz. And all you get is a random head on a pole here and there. ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. Taught it twice, under command.

Les Miserables---way too long. Moby Dick--way too long and a half. (Moby Dick does win a prize though for actually being a great novel).

Anything by Faulkner: I can think of three of his short stories, no four, that teach very well and that students enjoy.

Hemingway--not the novels but the Nick Adams short stories are hits with students. Emotionally, Hemingway never got much older than 19 and he is therefore in their age group when writing about subjects like fishing and sex in Michigan. Too much drinking in The Sun Also Rises. Talk to each other, drink, walk home, drink, go to the bullfight, drink even more, fall in love with the wrong people, drink some more.

Ginny--Somehow I survived NNNNNatty Bumpo in The Deerslayer. But I was a really dedicated student. Few of my classmates finished the book. ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

This semester I taught Saramago's Blindness to freshmen, also Shaara, The Killer Angels, Wolfe's The Right Stuff (not a novel; I cheated), and The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time which we are reading now. They have all been well received. I would teach all but The Right Stuff to high school seniors (whom I have also taught).

If I had high school seniors now, and if I had my choice of books (unlikely, I know), I'm not sure what I'd come up with but it wouldn't be any on the list from the teacher. Whoever s/he is, I agree!

~Maryal

Ginny, What a hoot you are re the slow books. Got a good laugh over your post.

Re the students and not their fault- absolutely correct. The world we live in today is just not the world of Dickens, Natty Slow Bumpo or Herman Plodding Melville. They may be great books (in their time) but for today's youth, no. And btw- it's not what I like either. I hate books that are full of themselves, as I call it, and I like an author to "get to the point, man, time's a wastin'" . It's not that I can't enjoy a classic be YeGods- I do appreciate a book that keeps me interested and that goes at a good clip.

Ginny said

That's why it's so rare and so fine (the real pot of gold at the end of the rainbow) TO find readers such as those assembled here, and in our SeniorNet Books area, who CAN discuss and who DO read and who DO have opinions about ideas, issues and books!

Yes, we rock!! For years, I read and enjoyed books but had no one with whom I could discuss the book. Book groups have changed all that. It is wonderful to read, discuss, recommend, etc.

Menendez trial- you were glued to it?? I am still glued to Court TV..it is another of my addictions. Truth is better than fiction they say, and CTV proves it. Nope, didn't believe the boys at all, but man, they could act!. And Leslie Abramson (sp.?) wow- she was something else.

Maryal- do you teach college?

Off to look at the House books.

Cathie, who is so far totally enjoying Murdoch's book. He ran into his old flame last night and I had to stay up and read what transpired.

SCOOTZ, we read Stegner's "Angle of Repose" here in 2002. It is in the Archives.

In haste, running out of the door ...

Wallace Stegner is, first of all, a Westerner writing about the West. I've read "Angle" three time and it's about time for #4. I absolutely love this man's writing. For one thing, he was a kind of neighbor, living in Los Altos and teaching at Stanford, just a few miles from my home near Cupertino. Somehow that gave his writing a deeper connection to me.

just realized -- I forgot to subscribe again, and posts have really piled up. So much to think about, I want to answer all of them.

So Pat and aren't the only ones who read in the bathroom!! Our mother finally forbade me, since I did dunk a few books. My mother was a librarian who met my father in the library. In our house we read everywhere, any time. When mom called "dinner" everyone would dash -- to get a book to read at the table. And of course you have to have books to read in the bathroom. And one in your purse to read while standing in line or waiting in the doctor's office.

I also marked this passage: "I think that those who seldom read are more likely to become swayed by a new idea". It is so true. The solution is more reading, not less.

Many High School English classes seem to leave the students, even bright ones, afraid of reading. Because they couldn't understand Beowolf or one of the books listed, many people think they aren't bright enough to read. I don't know what the answer is. Perhaps reading modern books? But if you think you can't read anything from the past, you cut out so much.

I don't know where you get that sense of "entitlement" if your parents don't give it to you -- the sense that all of these books are mine, they were written for me, they are my heritage just like anything I have inherited. And like anything I have inherited, I can do anything I want to with them -- love them, hate them, put them on a pedestal, use them to wrap the garbage, dunk them in the bathtub.

In 1995, the New York Public Library published a book about the most influential books of the last 100 years. Not the best, the most influential. Many of the "most harmful" were on it. I had a lot of fun with a project to read as many as I could -- not all, I balked at "Mein Kamppf". I tried to read Mao, but couldn't find it anywhere. I got some really funny looks when I asked for it. If the govt. is really checking library requests, I may be on a CIA list somewhere. But I read a lot of interesting books I wouldn't have thought of otherwise.

Fitzgerald and Zelda are buried near where I live: I pass their graves often. And I know a woman who nursed Zelda while she was insane. Apparently, she was really in bad shape. I don't remember The Great Gatsby, which I read many years ago. But my F2F group read Tender is the Night. It's a real mess of a book -- the writing reflects the struggle he had writing it. But there are some passages of really brilliant writing,

Joan K! Hi! you wrote:
I don't know where you get that sense of "entitlement." if your parents don't give it to you -- the sense that all of these books are mine, they were written for me, they are my heritage ...

Thank goodness for teachers! and Librarians!

Am I the only one in this wonderful SeniorNet group who received no encouragement at home? My parents did not go to college and did not read many books. My father did not encourage me to go to college at all.
So I rebelled (hahaha, as Ginny says) and got an advanced degree, and read almost everything, everywhere ...
except never in the bathtub.

MARNI, yes, the homoeroticism Mary Renault lovingly describes in all her books about ancient Greece is based on historic fact. Renault herself led an unconventional life and left Britain with her partner, never to return.

Pederasty is mentioned also in "My Name is Red", the RATW book by Orhan Pamuk we just finished, as an old custom of the Dervishes. Moreover, the sexual attraction the sixteenth century Turkish miniaturists in that book felt for the handsome young boys apprenticed to them, and the ensuing intimate relationships, were apparently considered quite normal and socially acceptable.

I read early, voraciously, and had full access to my father's library. But reading at table was never allowed, not in my childhood and not in my own home either. Conversation was encouraged intead; there were no silences, no "eat and run".
Tempora mutantur et nos mutamur in illis= Times change and we change with them.

When I was in junior high and high school, my teachers introduced me to wonderful pieces of literature like Beowulf, and the Canterbury Tales, the latter read aloud in Middle English and modern English. They introduced me to poetry and to Slavic Literature in translation and French Literature in French and Thomas Hardy and George Eliot and Harlem Renaissance poets. And sometimes I read books in class that I didn't like.

But today, teachers only teach to the bottom rung of the ladder. Every book must suit the needs of the students who wouldn't read anything unless forced to out of fear they'll get bored and be as turned off from reading for life as they already are.

What a shame for all the students who want to be exposed to great books that reading is all about whether you like a book or not, not about learning to read and get something out of a book, not about the language of prose, not about the common stories of humanity told in all our cultures.

It's nothing but a TV show anymore: if we don't hold their attention they might turn the channel for life.

There are tons of books I passionately love and a few I passionately hate. But once you start with the attitude that you might challenge a kid to read more than a few pages, or assign something that one student in the USA might not like, then you've already lost the battle. Why bother teaching?

Kleo

The controversy about Mead is not so straight-forward, Ginny, as she should be dismissed as a liar and cheat. My comment was meant to allude to the fact that there is greater controversy and more questions of character and science surrounding her detractor than her.

Margaret Mead still has immense stature and is held in prestige in her field.

The questions about her research methods in Samoa are not answered, and most of the answer do not point to damning questions about her, but many do point to damning questions about her main detractor and his over-extended 15-minutes of fame.

The bigger they are? Not only the harder they fall, but the easier target they make.

The jury is still out, but I think giving her time to defend herself would be nice. Oh, wait, she couldn't defend herself because the accusations, although they arose while she was alive, weren't presented until after her death.

I personally think she was duped, she probably lied and embellished. But I don't know if she was guilty of more of this than her detractor.

I did not find the book as compelling as others of the era, there was something not quite right about it. But I don't think it was a sense of her being wrong.

Kleo

To me the story is secondary to the writing. Victor Hugo could enthrall you describing a blade of grass. When he died he was given a state funeral where 2 million people gathered.

"Each man should frame life so that at some future hour fact and his dreaming meet. —Victor Hugo"

I must admit that the subject matter of many books enthralled me just as much as the writing when I was in high school. I was very much aware the world had social injustices from when I was 11. My best friend Ruth and I were oddballs at school being very politically aware even at that age. I think the fact our teacher allowed us to digress at times to discuss subject matter and we talked a lot about the background to the books our interest was held. We had teachers who allowed us to have thoughts and ideas of our own which was a rarity in high schools in those days.

Carolyn

Kleo said:

Teachers who dumb down the world of literature so students who won't be reading the books anyway do a great disservice to the students who are there to learn.

Maybe. But teachers who ignore the fact that the world is changing, and fail to try to appeal to their students individual interests and instead ram a classic down their throat, also do that student an disservice, imho. The classics will always be there. And the classics are not for every student.

Why not do "modern classics"?

We had one book a semester to study in depth so I see no reason why one semester could not be a classic and two semesters could feature modern literature. I don't think the classics should be discarded altogether. Children should be exposed to rich language which is often lacking in modern novels.

Carolyn

I read some of those 'heavy' novels as a HS student because I was interested and I wanted to. I can well believe, tho', that a student who read them because they were required to would find them stultifying. I don't see why there would be a problem with a teacher giving the students a choice of several 'required' books, and allowing them to choose the two or three that most interested them. The bookworms like me would likely go for the heavier classics, while others could find some topic that appealed to them.

HERESY!! GINNY, how could you slight the author of "Last of the Mohicans"? [Okay, so he does get tedious now and them, but I'm sure we could all name a number of classics that do the same. And I already told you what I think of "Wuthering Heights". Thumbs down!]

I can remember hearing a great deal about the 'rising tide' of homosexuality and that is was a sign of the declining morality of the nation. But the more I read, the more I realized that homosexuality is as old as history. It hadn't been increasing, it had just come out of hiding.

Babi

I think that if I hadn't read many of the so-called "deep" books when I was young, I mightn't have done it. When I was a teenager I just ploughed into books regardless. I seemed to have a capacity to absorb darkness and suffering in Lit. then, which I find really hard now. If I read all night, I could still function okay next day. Nowadays, I'd need a few days recovery time. They get harder to hold up too, classics often weigh a lot. Now I get paperbacks to spare my hands.

Thinking back, our books were totally Australian or British, mainly British. The only thing American I remember from that time(except the music, we all knew the music) was those Norman Rockefeller? prints, and the fact that stationwagons had woodgrain panels. Fascinated by that!

We studied Julius Caesar, The History of Mr. Polly by HG Wells, The Wind In The Willows, and Blackmore's Lorna Doone. I hated Lorna with a passion which was probably more to do with long, hot, sticky summer afternoons and the teacher's droning voice, than poor Lorna. I wish I could remember more. I'd be interested in what Carolyn was studying in New Zealand? We had abook about an aboriginal boy seeing the First Fleet sail in, and one on the WW2 in New Guinea.

There's a very, very popular children's writer here, John Marsden, who's been accused of being too bleak and gritty and dwelling on black subjects, but he says kids talk to him about these things all the time, and want to read about them in their books. His sales certainly back him up.

JAN, I couldn't agree more. Young people have all the time in the world, so we didn't care at all if a book was a 1000 pages. As we grow older, and the real pain of the world becomes part of our lives, we are less eager to delve into more of it in our books. I think we need more 'escape' by then.

Oh, yes...I believe you're thinking of Norman Rockwell.

Babi

Of course Babi, Rockwell. I thought it looked funny, but couldn't work out why! Escape, yes we really, really need it. Plus, the older I get, the harder it is to read of animal and people cruelty. Life brings painful lessons.

"Each man should frame life so that at some future hour fact and his dreaming meet. —Victor Hugo" That happened to me when at the age of 72 I became a clinical psychologist.
I don't remember ever not being able to read. When I was seven, my mother gave me a copy of Pilgrim's Progress to read.
What is the definition of a "classic?"

Robby

The problem is Scootz, you've just dismissed everything that isn't modern, "teachers who ignore the fact that the world is changing, and fail to try to appeal to their students individual interests and instead ram a classic down their throat?"

And you've just assumed that every student in the class is only interested in "modern" books.

Classics are classics because they appeal to human interests across time. Why would a modern book be more appealing if its appeal is timeless than an older book? Why do only students who want to read current books count?

In school I read current literature and classics from all centuries. My Mom did the same, most of the people in my book clubs all the same. But now we're told that if we have a student read anything that isn't "modern" we're "[ramming] a classic down their throats." I don't buy it for a minute. There are still young folks who read classics (we have a young man from China in our on-line book club, what he would do for a Hemingway!), and "classic" does not mean "irrelevant." But if you start with the supposition that reading a classic is ramming something down someone's throat you might as well not even bother, imo.

It just seems, again, as if you're going for the lowest common denominator by refusing to read classics or anything that isn't a "modern classic" out of fear that you will have to ram it down the kid's throat because it's too unpalatable to eat otherwise. If I had teachers like that when I was in school (I was partially home-schooled, also), I would have been deprived of exposure to some wonderful literature on behalf of students who probably aren't reading today anyhow. In fact, I think that's what you do, is you take the readers down to the lowest level with their peers, rather than elevating anyone. It seems like a lose-lose proposition to me. You ignore the students who will then devote a lifetime to reading all sorts of literature and focus on the interests of the students who won't be reading anything. Who wins?

Kleo

I read my first James Fenimore Cooper novel (Last of the Mohicans) last year after I saw the movie which was so absolutely fantastic. I was interested in reading his version, especially after I found out that the attack on the fort really happened. The book had been such a classic for so long. Well, I was so disappointed! Some of it was ok. But so much of the plot was so dumb, especially the part about - Natty Bumpo, maybe? - wearing the bearskin and the indians thinking he was a real bear - stuff like that. So dumb.

Reading about Cooper's life was much more interesting than his books. His father founded Cooperstown (home of the baseball hall of fame.) He meant to be sort of a lord with a town around his manor. James F. went to Yale and flunked out - or did so poorly that his father refused to pay for any more school and made him go into the navy.

When he was married, so the story goes, he read a Jane Austen novel that was popular and said that he could write a novel better than she. So his wife dared him to do it. And the rest is history.

Traude- I read the book The Reader by Bernard Schlink and so did my book group. It was a marvelous, in depth look at Germany in the WW Two era and after.

I think I have read every book on Germany in this era , at least those that have been translated into English. Gunter Grass and Heinrich Boll are two of my favorite authors. If you have any other suggestions I'd like to hear them.

Margaret Mead was an ICON for us young girls. Sorry to find out that some of her facts were "flubbed". However that doesn't reduce all that she did and was ,to nothing for me. It does make me curious as to why she did it and what exactly were the true findings that she hid. Because of her I developed an interest in Anthropolgy and read many interesting books on the subject.

Judy

Well, Judy, where are you in RAW when it comes to voting for German literature then? No one else seems interested and I do so want to take advantage of Traude's professional interest in linguistics while going through a modern German classic.

Judy, nothing said about Mead should cast a shadow on anything she inspired you to.

Kleo

Mark Twain wrote a wonderfully funny essay about Fenimore Cooper that I am trying hard to remember the title of. I suppose Google will have to help me. Title is something like "The Literary Sins of Fenimore Cooper."

Maryal

Google to the rescue again. The title is "Fenimore Cooper's Literary Offenses."

It's a hoot. You can read it Here

I think it's sad, not a hoot, Deems, that someone would take so much time to point out all the problems he perceived in Cooper's work. I probably betray my plebian interest in reading when I say I enjoyed reading him. To me the romance of the forest in his works was a big factor in my enjoyment of his work. So why didn't the critic skip the parts he didn't like or stop reading altogether?

I agree with Kleo that there is a somewhat defeatist attitude toward presenting high school kids with classic works. I think a good mix of modern and classic can be found--and will better prepare the kids, good readers or not, for life, as many of life's lessons can be found in the classics.

I also detect a bit of snobbism here in comments--disparaging remarks that make me feel that I'm not in the loop or totally out of sync with other Senior Net readers. I'm not saying that we should all enjoy every book read or have the same opinion about it, but the endless talk around and around about this defect of character or that defect of plot makes a book less than we want it to be. I'm not saying never criticize a book--after all we all have different tastes in reading--but it seems to me there is a sort of "agree with certain folks" or your opinion just might not count.

And there is much to admire in modern children's literature. You have to look past the tables of colorful books that are merely replicas of TV, video games, etc, and find the jewels--and there are many. How about the Caldecott awards and the Newberry prizes? How about Harry Potter for that matter? Sue

P.S. Parents and teachers who read aloud to their children from infancy right into high school age--even college professors who read to their students, enhance the enjoyment of listening to good literature and motivates many students to read for themselves.

Jan - We read Jane Eyre, Silas Marner, The Mill on the Floss, Julius Caesar, Romeo and Juliet, The Merchant of Venice, Midsummer Nights Dream, Animal Farm, The Pearl by Steinbeck, those are the memorable ones that have stuck in my mind.

Privately I read all of Dickins, All of the Brontes books, Black Beauty, The Little Women Series, The Anne of Green Gables series, The three Muskateers, The Count of Monte Cristo, Treasure Island, The Swiss Family Robinson. I also read lots and lots of biographies and autobiographies. I read Nevil Shute. I am just re reading Nevil Shute and thoroughly enjoying what I can find. He writes a ripping yarn! I think we did "A town like Alice" at senior school.

Carolyn

Sue I love Harry Potter! My friend Ruth loves Harry Potter also. I know many seniors who love Harry Potter also. We can share an interest with our grands with Harry Potter. I have a huge range of books that I like reading from mysteries to thrillers, adventure stories, kids novels, classics and so on. I just love reading and I notice my little grand Grace is as passionate about learning to read as I was at 5. Brooke only likes humorous books and is in for a shock with school reading when she is a teen. My two grandsons read only non fiction. Its terribly boring to read them a bedtime story LOL! One night I read for an hour from a book about "Great inventions" this book was complete with elaborate diagrams which I had to peruse with my grandson.

Carolyn

Deems: The Mark Twain article was hilarious. I've heard about how he tore down Cooper's work. Well, at any rate, Cooper, art and all, was wildly popular in Europe where people enjoyed hearing about the wilds of America. And even recently we are seeing his works made into films. The man had something.

Sue, I think we all feel a little out of sync sometimes, but fortunately, not all the time. While reading these 46 posts (since yesterday) I've been trying to think what our high school kids checked out of the library because they wanted to -- and many chose books, usually non-fiction, about others who were also a little (or a lot)out of sync. Those of Tori Hayden, child psychologist, and others who worked with emotionally disturbed children.

But there were always surprises. Hero stories. Louis L'Amour wrote a non-western, The Walking Drum -- thick, long, 400+, 500+ pages, and the boys loved it. Why? Because the main character could handle anything.

I remember reading Daniel Fader's Hooked on Books when I was a newly-hatched, albeit old, librarian. Fader worked with boys in a detention center and told of one boy who wanted to check out The Scarlet Letter. The teacher, knowing his reading level, thought it might be too much of a stuggle, discouraging. "It's about the whore, isn't it? I want to read about the whore," and he did, and it didn't matter that it took him several weeks to do so.

I cannot remember what I read in high school, but I know I read. We had to keep a notebook in English class about what we read, and my teacher, Mrs. F came to my house, DURING CHRISTMAS VACATION!!! to collect my notebook, ON THE NIGHT OF A DANCE!!!

But I do remember my home ec. teacher introducing our class to Eugene O'Neill. It was more of a "girl talk" class, and she told us all about Huntington's disease and O'Neill's prize winning "Strange Interlude." Banned in Boston. She also told us why she didn't like the use of, in our current vernacular, the term "make out." It was too much like "make," her description of which was totally new to us.

Are we still playing our Pick a Plot game?

Ginny,

Can you not keep me in suspense any longer and tell me which book it is that's like the Odyssey?

I always thought that Twain's comments on Cooper were really Twain's comment on Europeans and were his gift to Americans after insulting us with Innocents Abroad. I've never checked the date or attempted to verify this as I take Mark Twain as I want him.

I like reading Cooper for many of the reasons Twain criticizes him. To me Cooper's settings should have been painted by a North American Rousseau and accompanied by William Blake poetry.

I love Nevil Shute! One of the authors I discovered in a dumpster.

There are lots of great children's books still coming out every year. Unfortunately they tend to get buried by the avalanche of preachy little tomes trying to teach 6-year-olds to live in the real world. Still, I love to go to the library every once in a while and read the latest Caldecott award winners, or pick up a Newberry book, or ask the children's librarian what the little kids are checking out in picture books.

Kleo

Rousseau

Is this what the deer feared?

Kleo,

Recently, I looked at "Finding Neverland," the DVD. I can't wait to reread Mr. Barrie's Peter Pan once again. I love the painting up above. Who wants to grow up?

Pedin: Your comment about Eugene O'Neill brought back memories. I grew up in New London just a few houses down from the O'Neill summer house overlooking the Thames River where Eugene spent each summer with his family as he grew up. (He described that house in Long Day's Journey Into Night.) My best friend lived in a house that formerly had been the casino where O'Neill spent a lot of time drinking and gambling.

One of my favorite recollections is when I ran into Katharine Hepburn on my street when she was preparing for her role in Long Day's Journey Into Night. She was looking for O'Neill's house. I recognized her and gave her directions and we talked for a minute. I will never forget it!!!!

I am so glad that others feel as I do about Margaret Mead. I feel that she was young and very influenced by her mentor during the Samoa stuff. I also feel that she is and will remain an icon of my life for her ability to overcome all odds to become a women who knew what she wanted and got it. Our rule when the boys were growing up was dinner was for talking. This is when the boys took over the table and we discussed school, sports and anything that appealed to them and was not gruesome( Momma is a chicken). However my alone meals have always been accompanied by a book. My method of reading from the earliest through now is when I fall in love with an author, I read everything they wrote, then I try to read about the author himself and maybe even about the era they write ab out. My Dickens period led me in some pretty strange places.. As did C.S.Lewis, who wrote a pretty scary allegory that is generally put in Science Fiction bookcases.. Perelandra, This Hideous Strength and two more.. Wow.. Narnia is gentle , but these were not.

CAROLYN, we are obviously on the same wave length. I also read just about everything in your list.

MARNI, what a wonderful memory. I've always admired Katherine Hepburn immensely, and everything she did.

STEPHANIE, I think all C.S. Lewis' fiction work was allegorical...and all of it was good. Perelandra, et al, were more intense, but then they were aimed at a more adult audience. The Chronicles of Narnia are not the only 'children's' or youth books I've enjoyed. There are some really excellent authors writing for young people.

Babi

Gosh what a GREAT set of posts, what spectacular differing views and opinions, love it!

Love all the places people read (including tractor seats!!) and no matter which side you find yourself on (today) in the Mead/ Freeman issue, I'm glad it came up here: this is a good place not to miss anything Books! You are entitled to your own opinions on the Mead issue, on Cooper, on Twain or on anything else. Your opinions do count: that's the purpose of this discussion. Aren't we lucky we can say what we really think here to a respectful reception without people labeling our opinions or trying to make us all think in a certain way about something or to make us all agree?

In sinc, Sue? I'm not sure how anybody could be in sinc with several hundred different thoughts at once, just (as Mr. Darling used to say in the old Andy Griffith series, remember him?): jump in and hang on! Pick one and state your own thoughts in reaction or start a new theme: you can be assured here of a respectful and cordial reception to your own ideas as we discuss everything pro and con, positive and negative, about Books. And what's in them.

Maryal thank you so much for that Twain, I had never heard of it! Loved it! (One of the huge benefits of a discussion like this, we can all learn so much) and I thought it was priceless, just such a hoot, printed it out. It's something that makes your eyeballs run out on sticks. Maybe we need to bring some Cooper here so we can each tell what we like or dislike about it and see if Twain was right.

Talking about WRITING!!! I had put this in one of the Latin classes about Ulysses (Odysseus) when I found myself pausing over it and reading it again. I would LOVE to read some Tennyson here, and we've never done any? Never. Scootz' question on the Odyssey reminded me of this:

It little profits that an idle king,
By this still hearth, among these barren crags,
Match'd with an aged wife, I mete and dole
Unequal laws unto a savage race,
That hoard, and sleep, and feed, and know not me.
I cannot rest from travel: I will drink
Life to the lees: all times I have enjoy'd
Greatly, have suffer'd greatly, both with those
That loved me, and alone; on shore, and when
Thro' scudding drifts the rainy Hyades
Vext the dim sea: I am become a name;
For always roaming with a hungry heart
Much have I seen and known: cities of men,
And manners, climates, councils, governments,
Myself not least, but honor'd of them all;
And drunk delight of battle with my peers
Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy.
I am a part of all that I have met;
Yet all experience is an arch wherethro'
Gleams that untravel'd world, whose margin fades
Forever and forever when I move

Alfred Lord Tennyson's Ulysses

Is that not a beautiful thing? I absolutely love Tennyson.

Scootz! Yes! The new issue of the Smithsonian which my children gave me for Christmas and I'm so glad they did, says that the book AND the movie (you'll all never believe this one) Cold Mountain is a take off on the Ulysses theme: the Odyssey! Did you all read that or see the movie? The more you think about it the more reasonable it gets, but I would never have in a million years made that connection! Now it's YOUR turn! Hahaah Pick a Plot!

Oh and "wet books" , who knew? Hahaha Books at lunch, spotted books, love it. Books accompanying us everywhere but what's the strangest place you ever read a book? I don't live much of an adventurous life so I've had to give that one some thought, no camel back rides, for me. Where is Kathy Hill, she could tell us some tales, I bet.

IS there a place a book would be strange?!?

(Have YOU ever carried one in your purse into a STORE? Espectially a BOOK STORE? ) hahaaha I HAVE! What an awful feeling THAT one is! The efforts I've made to cover up stuff I had forgotten in a purse so I don't get accused of stealing something would fill a book itself! Have you all not ever done that?

Pat H, that has GOT to be the quote of the year, I absolutely howled, I guess because I'm still slogging thru WH, what a HOOT! I have read this discussion over 2 times and can't find your oatmeal thoughts, but you were right on, and it was priceless! Thank you for that! I love coming in here, there's such humor and fun.

Robby asked way back there what's a classic. He got some good answers, but what would YOU all say? That's a toughie, actually.

Scootz, I agree with this one, too: " Yes, we rock!! For years, I read and enjoyed books but had no one with whom I could discuss the book. Book groups have changed all that. It is wonderful to read, discuss, recommend, etc." Yes, Ma'am!

Joan K, that's wonderful about the sense of "entitlement." Do you all think a teacher can make up for the lack of that a child receives? Mippy obviously has!

Thank you Stephanie and Joan K and Joan G about Zelda, thank you for the link! I had no idea!

(Do you realize how astounding it is what we DON'T KNOW?) It's sobering, actually, or is to me daily.

Hahaah Babi, I did read The Last of the Mohicans and liked it, actually.

Jan and Carolyn how interesting about what is taught in different countries. I have never read Lorna Doone.

Did you all have to read The Scarlet Letter and the Red Badge of Courage?

If you all had to say, what ONE piece of literature made the greatest impression on YOU as a child in school? At any age?

What would you say? What's the first book that comes to your mind?

For me it was A Tale of Two Cities. We had this inspired English teacher, it was the 8th grade. And she had this idea that we would do "projects" about the book. I hated every minute of it, griped, groused and ended up doing an entire book of charcoal portraits of each of the main characters. (That was one of the choices and seemed the easiest). And you know what? She definitely knew what she was doing. You had to get into it to draw them and because of her encouragement, I really got a lot out of that book (rolling my eyes as I went like most other teenage girls) and she knew it, she knew that we really got into it. Before it was over we knew it too. Never forget it. Today I probably would not be interested in reading it but I can almost feel it now, the magic of it.

I liked Les Miserables, Eloise, but not on Broadway. Nor did I like Cats on Broadway and I can hear the gasps now.

I know people who have seen both about 10 times each, different strokes, maybe they'll come in and tell us what they liked about it? I like Hugo and I like TS Eliot, tho. In print.

Pedln, it's interesting you should say that about Louis L'Amour, he's the MOST requested author in the Prison Library Project, they can't get enough of him. We had a really inspiring story about him actually.

One of our readers here had a son serving in the Marines in Afghanistan, who collected Louis L'Amour, he had an entire set from years of collecting as a boy. When he came home on his leave his mom told him about the Project and he packed up every one of his own books and sent them to our Prison Library Project and the prisons of SC who were ecstatic, one of every book! I did not know L'Amour had written so many. Used Louis L'Amour's are as rare as hen's teeth. I was really touched by that.

I have never read a Louis L'Amour, maybe we need to get up a list of What Famous Books have you NOT read! (I seem to have quite a few here today) ahahaha

Maryal, I would like to know which book your students seemed to receive the best of all of the innovative books you've introduced into your classes? Was it Bee Season? (Maryal teaches English at the US Naval Academy).

Marni I did not know Cooper's father founded Cooperstown! Boy the things you learn here!!! I love coming in here because I don't leave that I have not had a smile or learned something useful or had a super debate.

Stephanie, and Babi, did you like The Screwtape Letters? I can't get that one out of my mind. Haven't read it in ages.

So what ONE book do you remember most from your school (let's qualify it as a book you were introduced to in school)?!? When you think of your middle, elementary or high school years, what ONE book stands out for you and why? Oh and where's the strangest place you ever read a book? Oh and feel free to issue a Pick a Plot challenge! Love it!

OH and what's the most famous book (the one people talk about the most) that you have NOT read?

I have to say as a 7 and 8 yr old "Black Beauty" was my very favorite book despite the fact that I wept copiously every time I read it. I would take it out every now and again and read it until I reached the age of about 16.

There was also a book called "The Lamplighter" author totally forgotten. It was a book my mother read as a child and her mother read as a young adult. Set in England with a rather Dickinsonian plot it was another tear jerker. "Uncle Toms Cabin" was also one of my childhood favorites. I was a child who rather enjoyed high drama and high emotions. As I said I had a highly developed social conscience even as a young child.

Jane Austen was one of my favorites as young adult and young wife. I also re read the Brontes at this stage. I go back to the Brontes and Austen every now and again. Pride and Prejudice was my favorite novel for many years.

My mother introduced me to English classics. She was no scholar but was forced by circumstance to live with her grandparents in her teen years for a two year period. It was a stern and forbidding atmosphere and my mother would escape to my great grandfathers library where he had row upon row of leather bound books. All the classics were represented and my mum spent hours in the library reading to pass the time and lose herself in fantasy. She remembered books she enjoyed and bought me cheap versions for birthdays and Christmas as I was a voracious reader.

Carolyn

I never read all of a dead author--I'm afraid I will miss discovering a new book of theirs later through life. Living authors, yes. But all of Dickens or Faulkner or Singer or .... No way. It's weird.

The best thing about C. S. Lewis, in my opinion, is that when he wrote for children he wrote for children, not children's themes in adult tomes or anything. And when he wrote for adults he wrote for adults. I loved the whole trilogy, but was captivated by Out of the Silent Planet--these deserve a reread. I find Narnia a bit young for me, now, but will always treasure the memories of devouring those books with my siblings.

I went through a Jane Austen and a Brontes phase, also. I recently reread Jane Eyre and found it a delightful reread, although I remember the Bronte and Austen themes as being somewhat immature. Didn't bother me. I read Emma to my son when he was rather young. We went to see the movie Clueless, which I did not know was based on the novel Emma, but he recognized the character in just the first few minutes of the movie.

The Lamplighter by Maria Susanna Cummins is a wonderfully maudlin novel that would appeal greatly to folks who loved and wept over every page for Jane Eyre. "In the novel, an afflicted orphan is taken in by a compassionate lamplighter, and, having been lovingly raised and taught virtues and religious faith, blossoms into a moralistic woman. In adulthood she is rewarded for her long suffering with marriage to a childhood friend." Who could ask for anything more? I loved it also, Carolyn.

Kleo

Here's another, while we're still chewing on Ginny's Odyssey.

There was a party and none of the guests were allowed to leave.

Ten Little Indians? There have been a few of this nature.

Kleo

Is Lucy's rape from the novel 'Disgrace' something to do with politics or is it just sex?

What's the most famous book that you have NOT read? I can answer this in a flash - Don Quixote. And we're reading it right now in SeniorNet!!!!! Hurray!!!!!!!

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What ONE book do you remember most from your school (a book you were introduced to in school)? Wow, that's a tough one. I can't remember just one. And I think for the most part I enjoyed more the books I found outside of school....

I do remember the first book we were assigned in my Freshman class of high school. I remember it because everybody HATED it so much. Our teacher was old and old-fashioned and weird and she tended to pick old books. Everybody hated her and her books. But she assigned The Virginian by Owen Wister. Did anyone every have to read this? I really liked it and couldn't understand what all the hoopla was all about.

I grew up reading a lot of older books. They were in my house. Also, I went to a private school in Jr. High School. Its library was filled with old books that had been donated. We had daily study hall. Naturally, I couldn't study in study hall. I had to read something else. So I browsed through the aisles of books and was always finding something good but old.

Did anyone read Ben Hur? That was a good one.

--------------------------

I had an incident regarding borrowing a book when I was a teenager. (It all came back to me a couple of days ago when I was watching the History Channel.) I was about 16 and was baby-sitting for acquaintances of my parents. I didn't know them but they were in a pinch. They were college professors. I browsed through their living room books looking for something to read and found an interesting book. I really got into it. Then the parents came home.

I asked if I could borrow the book and they looked really uncomfortable. I begged to borrow it, saying I'd return it, and they let me. (I was bad.) Well, the book was JUSTINE by the MARQUIS DE SADE!!! (I just saw the biography of de Sade.) No wonder the parents were uncomfortable about me borrowing it. And when I continued it at home, it got boring and I never finished reading it!

Marni

Ginny, you left out the best part of the Tennyson--the last line. I quote more for context:

Tho' much is taken, much abides; and tho'

We are not now that strength which in old days

Moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are,--

One equal temper of heroic hearts,

Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will

To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Marni, I never had to read "The Virginian" for school, but it was kicking around our house when I was young, and I liked it a lot. I reread it 10 years ago, and still liked it, although I saw a lot of things wrong with it. The humor is Mark Twain style humor, a uniquely American flavor.

Wow! So many books! Carolyn, apart from Julius Caesar,which was a set piece, I read all your books in my own time. I really wish I could remember our other set books. They've disappeared into that void where my mind used to be. I really empathised with Jane Eyre because of my own boarding school experience. I especially remember poor little Janet, who was 5 or 6 and treated as if she was about 12 and had to cope as best she could. I was 10 and that felt bad enough.

You know we studied so many countries at school, especially S. Africa and India, we did them to death, but USA and New Zealand were barely mentioned, I wonder why?

Ginny, if it wasn't British we didn't read it at school. I still have my copy of A Book Of Poetry which I studied from in 1962-3, my senior years. It's covered in notes in Copperplate handwriting and such tiny letters. I'd have Buckley's chance of doing it now. The line "Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy" has "perfect craftsmanship" written beside it and beside "for my purpose holds to sail beyond the sunset, and the baths of all the western stars until I die" it says "pure poetry".I love it, and I had Break, Break Break read at my husbands funeral.

He had all the Louis L'Amour books, he called them the thinking man's Westerns. Childhood books-- top of everyone's list was Seven Little Australians and its sequels. It was our Anne of Green Gables. I still put Margaret Mahy down as one of the very best children's writers in the world, even if she is a Kiwi<grin> KM Peyton, is a superb young adult writer from Britain.

I turned on Radio National when I went to bed last night, and lo and behold, there was a lady on, talking about her translation of Don Quixote. Talk about synchronicity! She's here to speak at a Literary Festival, but I missed her name, I'll have to look up the archives. The lady and the interviewer pronounced Don Quixote in a way I hadn't heard before, with an almost coughing sound in the "quix" part. I'm not very good at describing it. I suppose it's a European sound?

Jan

The Ghost of Thomas Kempe was by Penelope Lively, my favourite writer. The Changeover was by Mahy.

The Quixote translation was by Edith Grossman, I tried to make a link to her interview, but I can't make it work.

I can't even recall what I read in high school- more what I had to read in college. And the answer then is easy- James' THE TURN OFF THE SCREW. Adored it, and the discussions we had in class about what the heck was going on in that book- and those creepy kids. I keep thinking I should go back and read it now that I'm all "growed up".

Ginny, Yes, COLD MOUNTAIN makes sense when you think about it.

There are so many famous books I haven't read yet. Better get going, I guess, eh?

But yes, I'd say DON QUIXOTE would be right up there, but there are many others. I only read a few classics in school and it's only the last few years I have begun in earnest to read some of the "great books".

Weird place that I read? I love the movies (almost as much as books), and we always get there early. I carry a book for both hub and I, plus two clip- on reading lights so we can read while waiting for the show to start!

Jan,

Several of us are using the Grossman translation. Could you try agan with the link, or at least post the url? I'd love to hear her interview. TIA..............

Hmm. Book in school.. We were assigned Animal Farm in high school and I loved it. Dont pretend to really have understood it at that point, but I did love it and later reread it over and over and then got the message, but that was in college. Most famous book not read or even wanted to. Chicken Soup for anything.. Humbug Most disappointing: Ethan Frome.. Julius Caesar....House of Seven Gables.. Actually I reread Seven Gables later and liked it more the second time.

IOGA, the question of whethee Lucy's rape in "Disgracced" was politics or 'just' sex requires a longer answer than I h ave time for now. We did discuss the book here, Lorrie and I co-led. The discussion is in the Archives.

JUDY, re your 360. I imagine you are familiar with "Austerlitz" by W.G. Sebald. Other books by him available in English are "Vertigo", "The Emigrants", and "The Rings of Saturn".
The books neither novels in the conventional sense, nor memoirs, but combinations of fictionalized biography, history, travelogues. All are melancholy meditations on Germany after World War II, particularly the Holocaust, and human memory.

I have added the rules for Pick A Plot to the heading.

Scootz: There were so many classics I hadn't read either. One thing I did when I retired a couple of years ago was go to the library section that has paperback classics set out in a special area. It was easy to browse through the selections. I read a whole bunch I had never read before - Kidnapped, Treasure Island, Persuasion, House of Mirth, Madame Bovary, The Black Tulip, Winesburg Ohio, Sons and Lovers, Last of the Mohicans, Lord of the Rings, The Hobbit, Beowolf, Call of the Wild, The Bostonians, Mayor of Casterbridge, Mill on the Floss, Vanity Fair....and many more.

It was GREAT! It's nice having time to read what you want.

Jan: Re "pronounced Don Quixote in a way I hadn't heard before, with an almost coughing sound in the "quix" part"...

In my high school Spanish class, we were taught to pronounce the "j" and "x" with a sound made in the far back of the throat - sort of like making an "h" while touching the back of the tongue to the top of the throat.

Jane, you were right with Bel Canto.

Marni, I don't think we read any classics in high school, and I've read very few, even now. The ones I do remember were read in college -- Madam Bovary, Crime and PUnishment, Jude the Obscure.

I do remember Shakespeare's Othello from 10th grade, but that was because the teacher, very old and very crazy, acted out all the parts for us in class. We never read it, but I can still see her sweeping from one side of the room to the other as she changed characters.

Well I had read most of the classics before they were assigned to me to read in high school. My mother was an English major and guided me into reading the classics. I loved them although many times I did not know what I was reading about until much later. The author that I discovered in high school was William Shakespeare and how I loved him and still do. I also was really taken with Chaucer and Canterbury Tales in high school. I always loved English class. My English teacher was old too but I loved her and the things she taught me. I would not take anything for my English class in high school. That is all but one semester when I had a younger idiot for a teacher. All that she knew anything about was applying lipstick to her lips. Now that was a woman that I hated. She was not going to count my book report on Green Dolphin Street by Elizabeth Goudge because she had never heard of the book. It just happened to be a best seller at the time. The rest of the class stood up for me and ended up counting the book report. She was crazy.

Joan Grimes

Wow! I rented the movie Cold Mountain last year, and sure did not know it was the Odyssey. I do remember crying in the sad part, which is one of the nice things about watching movies at home.

Shakespeare in high school was clearly the best author we did. But I can't remember which play,
since I've read, as well as seen, so many of them since.
Speaking of favorites, the opera Othello (by Verdi), with the libretto taken right from
Shakespeare, is one of my top 10 opera favorites.
Otherwise in high school, I recall we read a lot of exerpts from "Great Lit" texts, not whole books,
unfortunately. High School English wasn't exactly a challenge.

Have been missing for a few days and just skimmed through the 130 or more posts waiting for me today. So many stimulating topics and no time to do them justice - will go back later and read properly.

I was so hoping no-one would name Cold Mountain as the Pick a Plot- it will probably be the only one I'll ever get right! I saw the film first and recognised the Odyssey quite early - the blind peanut vendor/soothsayer - the vision in the well - Inman's long journey back delayed at every turn. Anyway, next day I bought the book which happily came with the DVD and then gave copies to all and sundry - well the readers in my family - and they tell me they have bought copies for friends - It's really a great take on the classic.

Was it Kiwilady who mentioned To Kill a Mockingbird- oddly enough only last weekend we saw the stage adaption in a local production. A powerful piece. I read the novel long years ago and remember thinking that it was just as well that every generation has a few men like Atticus Finch. Do you remember Gregory Peck in the movie?

I liked Neville Shute too - A Town like Alice - and a biographical piece 'Slide Rule' He was actually an engineer by profession. Alice was made into a movie as well with Peter Finch and Virginia Mckenna in the leads. Like most Aussie things it was all understated.

Bernhard Schlink's 'The Reader' brought me bolt upright at times - brilliant writing showing how the individual in postwar Germany may deal with the memory of the actions and the collective guilt of their parents' generation

As for my favourite place to read - well in summer it is out in the garden, under a shady GUMTREE with a glass of something iced nearby! But generally in the evening, in a favourite armchair will do. I still have guilt feelings about reading in the morning and had a lot of trouble adjusting to a F2F which met for breakfast - needless to say I did manage to adapt!

Gregory Peck was superb as Atticus in "To kill a Mockingbird". We have the movie shown every few years or so on our Public TV and yes thank goodness for people like Atticus!

I was talking to my dad on the phone yesterday and asked him if he had read "The Secret" by Nevil Shute. He said he had not so I told my sister to get it for him from the library. I know he would love it as he was a career British Naval Officer until he emigrated here after the war. I had only ever read "A town like Alice" until recently and finding other books has been a real joy to me. I love a good recreational yarn and Nevil Shute writes a very good yarn with panache.

This year I have been concentrating on new Asian writers. I try to read one a month. Asian writers are becoming more main stream reading these days.

Carolyn

Here's a thought. How about moving the Pick a Plot game to the games folder? There are so many posts here between the question and the guesses that it is hard to keep up.

Anyone else think this? Sue

It would be good in a way, to move Pick a Plot, but bad in another way, since it leads to side discussions that belong here. Don't know which I think is better.

Marni, I tried to make the sound of Grossmans "quixote" as she said it but it was beyond me, I'm afraid.

Eureka! Scootz, try this it just worked for me http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/ling/

Otherwise, I can only explain how to get there. The url for the radio station is http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ then from the list "select a program" click on Lingua Franca and the page will come up. It's easy to see with recent stories and audio.

Thanks Jan. I actually googled the interview earlier today and couldn't find any audio interview, only a short blurb of what it was about. Is it possible you have to be a paying member? I will try your link, though and give it another go!

Scootz, see my edited version above. Thae page you went to was just a short description, i ended up there first go, too.

Jan,

Just had myself a lovely listen of Grossman's interview. Thanks so much for sharing this. It was most interesting - whether or not you will be using the Grossman translation, you would be interested to hear this interview.

Jan, you ought to post Grossman's interview in the Don Q discussion, too. It's really interesting--thanks.

GINNY, if you're planning to read some of Louis L'Amour's books, do read his earlier ones. They are so good! The ones he's written in the last few years, unfortunately, tending to be mostly 'preachin' on his favorite themes.

We read "Julius Caesar" in high school, I remember that. But the most influential book I remember reading was also in high school, called "Glass House of Prejudice". It gave me a shocking look at prejudice that I had had no opportunity to observe in the all-white neighborhoods in which I grew up. I was infuriated by the things I learned, and this hatred of prejudice remained with me.

Babi

Babi I grew up in an all white neighbourhood where prejudice abounded and it was generally agreed they wanted the area kept white. I moved to a multi ethnic neighbourhood in 76. I love it here.

Carolyn

I read alot of Shakespeare in high school, Freshman year was Julius Caesar. Sophmore year we read As you like it. Then Junior year was special as we read Macbeth. However the most special was Senior year when we read Hamlet. I loved every minute of the Shakespeare, especially Macbeth and Hamlet.

When I taught English which I did for quite a few years, I loved teaching Shakespeare. It was just such fun each time that I taught it.

Joan Grimes

My eldest son and husband loved Hamlet, MacBeth and Richard third.

Carolyn

Scootz and Pat, I'm glad you enjoyed the Grossman interview, she has a lovely warm voice, I think. These html links are so knitpicky about their dots and dashes. I'll post it in the Quixote site, I just assumed the readers would be in both places.

My favorite Nevil Shute is On the Beach. I'm always surprised when people mention other books of his (although I've read and own a good half dozen, they'll never be up in the book exchange!) as their favorite.

I read a lot of drama in high school, devoured poetry, and read the usual assortment of novels. Nothing much stands out from in school books, novel-wise. Outside of school I could name a million bajillion.

However, in junior high school my favorite books that I read for the first time were Chaucer's Canterbury Tales in Middle English, Beowulf, and Poe's The Cask of Amontillado.

I love Louis L'Amour. And Zane Grey.

I've always wanted to read The Virginian.

Kleo

GUMTREE-
The sound of the X in 'Quixote' is as MARNI has described it = a sharp guttural sound, inimitable until one has heard it pronounced.

The same sound is produced by the Russian x, e.g. in the word Astrakhan for example, and in the German word "acht" ('eight'). The final 'e' --is NOT a silent vowel, as it is in English words like "nice", "face", 'theme' etc.-- , but IS heard and pronounced, as it is in the word "guacamole".

KLEO, just checked my post and saw yours regarding Nevil Shute's "On the Beach". That is the very book by him that I remember best also. It made me incredibly sad and may well have been prescient.

I read it when we were already living in this country. I'll try to describe my own high school curriculum (especially with regard to literature) another time.

The discussion of Don Quixote is now au courant. Thanks for the link to Edith Grossman's interview. I was particularly interested in her comment -

"You can never trust your first response to Cervantes."

Makes you think, doesn't it? I think that would be particularly true if you last read Don Q. when in school all those years ago. The interview is now located in "RELATED LINKS" in the heading of the discussion of Don Quixote.

Please everyone - feel free to come over to the discussion and join us. YOu won't want to leave - such a grand enthusiastic group has assembled. We won't scramble through this one - we plan to amble along on Rocinanthe's old stable mates. Do come! Here - La Mancha

Traude - thanks for your note on pronunciation 'Quixote' - Though someone else raised the question - I agree that it's always difficult to get the sounds of another language just from reading

Kleo - Your comments about Neville Shute are right on the button "On the Beach' is by far his best - I was just responding about 'A Town Like Alice' which has special resonances for Australians.

Nevil Shute. Oh gracious. I read On the Beach many years ago and then tracked down all of his books. Some good, some not my cup of tea, but I do love most of them. An interesting writer, who wanted you to think Nevada Barr.. Hard Truth. Finished it, but still think some of it was far fetched. I would guess that I have problems with being able to hide the children effectively and to turn them into monsters in a short period of time. I actually liked Bel Canto more which did also have the Stockholm syndrom as its theme. Nevada is a bit melodramatic..

Wow; This site moves so fast.. I have to go back to previous remarks; First of al Thanks TRAUDE for suggesting Sebald. Never read any of his works.

Now to Ginny's request about childhood books. The only book I liked in Elemntary school was A Tale of Two Cities. However from fifth grade on we read one play by Shakespeare every year through twelth grade. We also learned his Sonnets. About two a year. Helped my vocabulary immensely.

In High School we read many Classica. The Odyssey was my favorite. I think most of my background in Literature comes from my own reading. I "get into" an author and read everything they wrote. At age 12 Louisa May Alcott, at age 13, Thomas Wolfe (You Can'T Go Home Again etc) and at age 14 all of Thomas mann (Buddenbrooks,Death in Venice etc).

The strangest place to read a novel? Perhaps sailing on a boat up the Yangtzee river in China.

Judy

Watch for Scootz & Colby in the slide show above.

Can't seem to find the latest Pick a Plot clue. Will someone please tell me - thanks

I first went through all of the Nevil Shute books about 20 years ago and was totally enthralled by them. It's time to revisit them - first tho I will see if Half-Price Books has any available. I had to winnow all of my books about 10 years ago, and so am now replacing some of what had to go then. Shute will be at the top of my list to replace and re-read - and maybe take on a trip I hve coming if I can find amy on audio books. I intend to drive to Montana in May, from Texas, so I have a reall odyssey coming up. isak

We love Montana, Isak. That's a long drive, and I know the books on tape will be enjoyed. I hope yours is a pleasure trip. Where are you going in the state? Have a wonderful, safe trip.

We're in Farmington, NM, taking an Elderhostel (starts this evening). One of the subjects is the novels of Tony Hillerman. We've read them all, and were planning to listen to at least one in the car on the way out. But the only one our library had was checked out, so we did without.

Mary Z Yes, it'll be a real pleasure trip to Western Montana - To Kalispell to attend m Golden Weeding Anniversary celebration for my brother and sisterin-law. I was in their wedding - so that will be great. Their children are doing the festivities. My Viking blood is looking forward to the trek. isak

Kalispell is in a lovely area - right there at Glacier NP, if I remember correctly. I know you'll have a great time. And congrats to your brother and SIL.

It's fun that so many on SeniorNet love Nevil Shute. He's not the most familiar author to Americans, so maybe I need that international audience. I'm reading 1950s books with my Lost Generation club and may see if I can throw a Shute in there. Have not read him in about 10 years, so he's due a visit. I think I'll try A Town Called Alice which I have not read.

Kleo

Nevile Shute's stories, time to revisit them. Here is a website devoted to Nevile Shute Norway, his full name. http://www.nevilshute.org/index.php My favorite, I think, is Trustee rom the Toolroom, but it'shard to choose.

Judy, Trustee was my first Nevil Shute read. It is one of my favorite books, although On the Beach is probably my favorite Shute.

Kleo

"Trustee from the Toolroom" is the only book apart from "A town like Alice" and "On the Beach" I had read since my girlhood.

For sailing fans I just finished Ellen MacArthurs autobiography. I just loved it.

Carolyn

our son just moved to Bozeman, MT to be a football coach at Mt State U. We're looking forward to visiting also......jean

Both GUMTREE and I have asked about the place where 'pick a plot' is now located. Would someone please let us know ? Thank you.

JUDY, as soon as I can I'll write more about this author, his opus and his untimely death in an automobile accident in 2001.

TRAUDE: As far as I know, Pick a Plot is still right here. There is a lot of conversation going on. However, there is no reason for Pick a Plot not to be brought up here also. Maybe GINNY will have another thought on that next week.

Does Pick a Plot have to be fiction? If not, here is a nonfiction that I enjoyed -- set in the Windy City in the late 1800s the chapters alternate between what the good guys are doing and the bad guy is doing.

We're here at our Elderhostel, and have met the wonderful PatWest. She was so sweet to bring me her copy of our just-discussed "Founding Mothers" to read. And then I'll pass it on. Thanks again, Pat.

How neat to have two SeniorNet Books people at the same Elderhostel...on an author too!!

Enjoy, Mary and Pat!!

jane

Such a lot of interest in Nevil Shute - just amazing, I haven't heard his name for years. He was a British aircraft designer.- very successful - founder (I think) and Director of aeronautical company with 1000 employees. He invented things and wrote novels in his spare time! After World War II he came to Australia and settled on a farm just outside Melbourne - and wrote more novels - mostly bestsellers at the time - his books are collectable these days. Maybe he is worth a revisit to see just how well his work has worn. A couple of his other titles are 'The Far Country' 'In the Wet' and 'Requiem for a Wren'

Mary Z and Pat West at the same Elderhostel! How wonderful! AS Jane asays "how neat to have two SeniorNet participants at the same Elderhostel." Sounds like a dream come true.

Mary and Pat is this the one on Tony Hillerman? Of course it is. They are talking here folks Elderhosteling . You can just click on that link and listen in on their conversation. Lets hope that they continue it while they are there.

I sure hope that you all have a wonderful time and learn alot! Tell us all about it please.

Joan Grimes

Joan G -- thanks for that link to Elderhosteling. I was wondering if Pat and Mary knew beforehand that they would both be there. And they did. That's nifty -- two seniornetters at the same elderhostel. And I like your point too, about SeniorNet being a kind of Elderhostel. Right on.

MARJORIE, thank you very much. All right then, Pick a Plot, here.

Why not include nonfiction ? Of course GINNY will have to approve.

Now to take a stab at your mention NF pick-a-plot : By any chance, are you thinking of The Devil in the White City by Erik Larson ?

Thomas Kennealy, the author of Schindler's List , is Australian. How many American readers realize that ?

My guess for your nonfiction book is Devil in the White City.

TRAUDE and DEEMS: You are both right. The discussion I was thinking about is The Devil in the White City. Since I grew up in Chicago and visited the museum that is in the building left from the World's Fair, the book was fascinating as were the many links in the discussion. Click here if you want to check out the archived discussion.

Next?

I would love to revisit Shute in a discussion. Trustee is far from Shute's best, but it has some serious advantages, one in particular, that a lot of so-called great books are missing. It's a bit more pleasant than On the Beach. I would reread any of his in here, though.

Kleo

Mary Z: I've read all of the Tony Hillerman books, too. I love his books. When my husband and I traveled the "Grand Circle," we visited some places Hillerman mentions in his books. When we were in Flagstaff, AZ, we were talking to the owner of a restaurant where we were having lunch. He pointed out a brick building across the street and said that Zane Grey wrote a number of his novels there. The town was going to tear down the building, but the townspeople raised a ruckus because of its historical significance; and the building was saved and restored. That was kind of fun. I've never read a Zane Grey or a Louis L'Amour, but hope to someday.

JUDY, did you really mean you read Dickens in elementary school? That hardly seems an appropriate asignment for the 6-11 year-old reader group.

I really like Shute's "Trustee From the Toolroom". To me, it typifies the Shute theme of everyday people rising to the occasion, and doing extrordinary things. Shute's books always gave me a lift. He gives us people we can not only admire, but feel it within our grasp to 'go and do likewise'.

Babi

Babi - I read Dickins at about 7-8 yrs of age. In fact I read many adult books from 6yrs old upwards. I think Dickins was instrumental in awaking my social conscience at a young age.

My pacificist philosophy also comes from reading autobiographies of great war heros from 6 yrs onwards.

I enjoyed the reading I did and it was not prescribed reading it was by choice.

Carolyn

You were at it even earlier than me, then, Carolyn. But I seriously doubt whether we were typical elementary school readers.

Babi

Babi - I belonged to a library where it was a paid subscription then so much for every book you took out. I remember getting "Reach for the Sky" off the shelf and taking it to the librarian. She looked at my mother and said as I could not possibly be able to read it I could not take it out. My mother said "read the first page Carolyn". I did begin to read and after the first couple of paragraphs the librarian agreed I could have the book! I was allowed to read anything I liked except for DH Lawrence. My friend was allowed to read DH Lawrence at a very young age.

I also read Dickens when I was 7-8 years old.

Robby

I don't think I read Dickens at a young age, not until I was in junior high school at least, maybe older. However, I think Dickens' books have broad appeal to precocious children and youngsters and I could certainly imagine someone as young as 7 or 8 reading them.

Not I, though, as I didn't learn to read until I was 7 and I wanted to get through all the great children's books first.

We were lucky growing up as our children's librarian recommended both children's and adult literature to us. She treated all books equally and all children equally as individuals. My sister and I devouring the adult classics of Western Literature were not more important to her than the other children reading their way through the children's picture books. My parents did the same thing, treating all literary discussions equally. The Hardy Boys, Shakespeare, Tolstoy and a new early reader were all on equal footing in discussions.

We read precociously not out of choice or anything, but for the same reason many did: adult books were the ones lying around the house. My parents didn't buy children's books, and I had only a few as a child. We did own quite a few classics of American, British, French and Russian Literature, though. Also, even at a young age I liked long books.

Kleo

One of our neighbours had a complete set of Penguin classics. They had a huge book case and were a scholarly couple. I was allowed to borrow any book I liked. My mother never had books in the house she never read when I was young except for womens magazines. I was grateful to my neighbours' encouragement with my reading. My grandparents had books and so did my great grandparents who as I said before had a proper library in their home.

Carolyn

I'm not sure if it was here or on the fiction board (but I imagine the same folks are present) where I discussed recently reading LITTLE WOMEN and wanting to read MARCH. Well, Geraldine Brooks won the Pulitzer for her book! (Judy, didn't you and I talk of this one?)

2006 Pulitzer Prizes for Letters, Drama and Music:

FICTION: "March,'' by Geraldine Brooks

In "March,'' Brooks imagines the character of John March, the absent father in Louisa May Alcott's "Little Women.'' To develop March - an idealistic chaplain who witnesses barbarism and racism among his fellow Union soldiers during the Civil War - Brooks researched the journals and letters of Alcott's father, Branson Alcott, a friend and confidant of Ralph Waldo Emerson and Henry David Thoreau.

Brooks got the idea for the story after moving in the early 1990s to rural Virginia, where she became steeped in Civil War history and memorabilia.

I guess I will pursue this one. Kudos as well to our own DMN staff of photographers who won the Pulitzer in that category.

I saw the Pulitzer prize list this morning. So it is about John March.. Hmm. I read a lot about Bronson Alcott when we lived in New England since we were not far from the homeplace.. Strikes me that Louisa was the brains and guts of the family and probably supported them more than any other. Bronson seems to have been one of those" Big Thinkers" that life hands out. They think and everyone else gets to work.

Traude - Thomas Keneally certainly is an Australian. His books are very well known and popular here. He won the Booker Prize with Schindler's List and has been shortlisted several times. Many of his books have a strong Australian flavour notably 'The Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith' which deals with conflict between the indigenous people and white settlers and is based on fact. His books are compelling but he is far from being my favourite Aust. writer.

Scootz - Did you notice that Geraldine Brooks was born and raised in Australia - It's amazing how often we crop up. - 'March' is interesting in all sorts of ways. Let's talk about it once you've read it.

Gumtree- No, I sure didn't notice that. She had a book out a few years ago, THE PLAGUE YEARS which I never got around to. I'm going to pick this one up soon. I take it you've read it? Once I have, I'll let you know.

Fair dinkum, you Aussies do get around.

BTW- I visited your beautiful country many years ago now. The trip just about killed me, (I recall some hysterical crying on the last leg from NZ to Australia, wanting OFF RIGHT NOW ) and I felt like I was on another planet (so far from home, doncha know?). But I had a marvelous time, saw all the sites (Sydney), and koalas.

Have you been to the US?

March sounds like a good book for a SeniorNet discussion!

Yes it does, Marni, or the other one that she has written, The Plague Years. I've heard of it, but don't know its focus. The Schindler that Gumtree mentioned would also be interesting -- The Chant of Jimmy Blacksmith.

Gumtree, I know so little of your country, only from books and films. The above title that you mention puts me in mind of the film "Rabbit-proof Fence," which I thought most thought-provoking.

I read "March". I did not think it was as good as the novels by Alcott. It was OK but there were parts I got bored with in the novel.

Carolyn

I agree with you, Carolyn, that March was interesting, but boring in parts. And it certainly changed my opinion of Alcott's saintly Father. He was on such a pedestal in Little Women. Marmee and the girls doted on him and the letters. In this fictionalized biography he is much more human. Sue

I am again trying to catch up with all of you. I have been planting my summer vegetables since today has been the first break here after 11 days of rain.

The only book I read by Nevil Shute is "A Town Called Alice". I read it because I was enamored of the PBS special of that name. It was many years ago but the story and the book were uplifting, and heartwarming .Rare virtues these days.

I also saw that "March" won the PP. When I heard of the book ,some months back my thought was "Don't go and destroy the illusions of childhhod (Little Woman) with the reality of the missing Father". Another author that has done that recently is the one who wrote "Wicked" about The Wizard of Oz from the Witches perspective. Again my thought was "riding on the coattails of greatness".

Judy

When I mentioned "Wicked" I forgot to include the name of the author: Gregory Maguire. There is now a play based on this book-a musical.

Judy

My book group tried WICKED and we all, to a man, hated it. I have to think that MARCH is some better- at least I sure hope so if it won the Pulitzer. Then again, so did CONFEDERACY OF DUNCES. Oh well...

Judy, I've noticed a halo around your head in your picture. Is there something you haven't told us?

It is possible that there are saintly men. I do know a few. I found it sad that the book destroyed the image of Mr March. What is wrong with goodness and does every hero have to fall. I am sure not all of them have!

Carolyn

There are good and wise men; there are just no perfect men. Or women. ...Babi

Scootz, John plowed through all of Wicked, but didn't really feel it was worth it. I tried it and gave up quickly. Our youngest daughter absolutely loved it, and has read some of his other books. And we're all great Wizard of Oz fans. Go figure!

I saw the movie "Rabbit-proof Fence," but haven't read the book. The movie was excellent.

Mary Z- I read that the book and the Broadway play were totally different- to the extent that it was discussed as to the play having a different name since they were so different. I started out thinking it was kinda offbeat, unique, but it quickly got really silly for me.

Didn't I read somewhere that he and his friends, the author of Walden, Thoreau, and the author, Emerson, formed some kind of religious colony which failed to thrive? The religion or belief had a name,too, Trancendentalism? Maybe! I will look for it.

So, now I know that Bronson Alcott influenced Thoreau's thinking and writing of "Nature". I still haven't found anything that refers to the colony but I really do remember something long ago about this man and his religious thinking and the colony.

Yes, Fruitlands and here's a link with more info than you ever wanted on this failed experiment of Alcott's. Fruitlands

Alcott and Thoreau and a few others did try to found a colony, but I dont think it ever get fully established. The interesting thing to me is the fact that all of the men were great theory people, but the women in their lives had to support them.

I had a look at MARCH yesterday at B&N- not a long book at all. Based on my glance through, and the comments here, I doubt I'm going to read it.

Bronson moved his family to Fruitlands in 1842 and they left the unsuccessful community in Jan 1844. This was an attempt at communal life but wasn't very well studied or thought through before they attempted it.

Be sure to read Marcie's announcement here about move of SN server:

We've just been notified that our server is moving to a new location tonight around 11 pm Pacific time. Our site will be down for several hours. The DNS number will be changing but the urls for our discussion and non-discussion pages will stay the same.

Marcie Schwarz, "Problems or Comments re Discussions or Web Site"

Hi Scootz- Never noticed the halo till you mentioned it. My husband took the picture and printed it. When I showed him the halo just now he was shocked. So lets put it down to lighting. Hope I don't have to be "good" all the time now !

In the book discussion on "Middlemarch" the subject of this commune came up. The Alcotts were starving and the conditions were awful. I think the founding men were the kind called in German "Luftmenschen" or in English, Dreamers, but the German word describes it better.

Judy

I remember reading somewhere that Alcott thought it was wrong to ask animals to give up parts of themselves (like wool) for humans, so the commune was supposed to survive New England winters in cotton clothing. "Luftmensch" is about right.

Well, I finished the Murdoch book today. I only liked it ok and wouldn't search out any further reading by her, I don't think.

I'm going to jump into Trollope's THE WAY WE LIVE NOW next. It will be my first by him. It's hu-normous at over 1000 pages. It will have to be very good to keep my interest that long. We shall see.

Another tome I keep threatening to start is AND THE LADIES OF THE CLUB. Anyone read that one? It was so popular in its day.

WOW!! What sparkling conversations on All Things Books! Good thing for Printer Friendly on the top right of the screen, I'd have missed some of your great thoughts. And since there is no earthly way to address 1,000 posts, I'll follow my own advice and just jump right on in!

First off, thank you for asking about Pick a Plot, and thank you Marjorie for that fine chart in the heading here. We'll try to put the Pick a Plots there for a bit to make it easier.

Great challenge and great answer, Pedln and Jane. I was all set to read it because I missed it here till somebody said Stockholm syndrome, I really don't want to read about that right now.

What do you all think about the 9/11 movie coming out? Too much too soon? Or we need to know? Or?

Good for you also Marjorie, a super question. No, the Pick a Plot can be anything in our Archives, fiction, poetry, non fiction, etc. and good for you, Deems and Traude, no fooling you! I don't think the little Pick a Plot game interferes with the conversation here, and I agree it enhances the conversation: here are two for today, from our Archives, see heading:

You do NOT have to have participated in our own discussion of this book to play!

Pick a Plot: Door #!: The plot of this book talks about an incident eerily replicated in the headlines in today's paper and on the news. Will we ever learn? But the reaction this time is different. What is the book?

Pick a Plot: Door #2: This book caused the author to change his entire lifestyle and perspective after he wrote it. What is it?

First off tomorrow night April 22, if you have HBO, Helen Mirren and Jeremy Irons are going to appear in Part I of Elizabeth I, Part II following on the 24th at 8 pm Eastern. There's an entire website on it: HBO's Elizabeth I

And as you can see, a wonderful presentation of Thomas Hardy's Under the Greenwood Tree, coming up IMMEDIATELY, and discussed (they are just now putting it up) in our PBS Program Clubs series. Do you like Thomas Hardy?? I have never heard of that book, have you? It might be a really fun and useful way to spend an hour or two.

Pat you are so right, I left out the best part of the Tennyson! We MUST read Tennyson, folks, so many authors refer to him. I'm listening to an Agatha Christie in the car, read by Hugh Frasier (Captain Hastings on the David Suchet Poirot series). Boy is he talented, he can do any voice, including Poirots (he's had a lot of practice listening to Suchet, who also does readings as does Joan Hickson of Miss Marple (or did before her death) but he's just glorious, I'm just swept away, much like old radio and of course The Mirror Crack'd, IS about Tennyson, wouldn't you know and the Lady of Shallot. We must read some Tennyson, we've never done that in 10 years of reading.

Scootz, you have to win the Oscar for She Who Reads in the Strangest Places. I have not been able to get the mental photo of you reading in the theater while waiting for the feature with a book light out of my mind! First Place!!!

Who?? WHO?? I can't find it said they read going down the Venezuelan river, whoever you are, by gum you win second with that Strange Place to Read.

Sort of reminds me of my own sitting in the Tulieries, sayihg to self, I could be back in the room reading! Hahaah Now THAT'S a good book because the Tuileries is one of my favorite spots on EARTH!

The April 24 issue of Time features on the cover The Opus Dei Code, with of course reference to the DaVinci Code's reference to Opus Dei. The new movie with Tom Hanks is coming out and if you liked the book or hated it, the article is excellent and probably available online as to what the Opus Dei SAY about the movie and how they are portrayed. Many of the things in the book are explained. Highly recommended.

I am reading Ruth Reichel's Garlic and Sapphires, I think it's called, about the true life of the Restaurant Critic of the New York Times. I can't put it down. I had no idea. I bet YOU have no idea. They just don't saunter in and eat and go home, oh no. It's incredible. You can understand somewhat why chefs prostrate themselves for one star, in a 4 star rating.

This author also write Comfort Me With Apples, I think it is.

I seem to be going thru a phase wanting to read about what really is behind the façade. Nickel and Dimed started it, and I've enjoyed The Ivy Chronicles (rich people trying to get their preschoolers in the best schools, and not so rich people), Hotel Babylon (what really goes on in hotels, especially 5 star European hotels) and now this one about the real world of the Food Critic.

Carolyn, I absolutely loved Black Beauty, did you have the version with the horse looking out of a stall on the cover? I have tried for years to find that particular version to no avail for my goddaughter (and now in November for my own grandchild, for whom I have been collecting books for decades!) Whee!

I'm going to break this up but before I do, we have 9 excellent titles already suggested in our new Houseboat series, and we're looking for number 10. We need to hear why you want to read number 10, what it's about, a review/ and / or quote from the book and once we get 10, we'll begin discussing them, pro and con and then we'll vote.

Some great points and discussion there already, come on down and literally "put your OAR in." hahaah You'll see what I mean when you get there! Come help us row the boat!

More on what you all have brought up following…………….

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ~ JOAN GRIMES

Happy Birthday, Joan Grimes!!

Thank you Pat, Hats and Mary Z.. I share this day with Queen Elizabeth II hoever she is several years older than I am. I always enjoyed having the same birthday as her when I was child. Might as well enjoy it now too since I am probably in my second childhood.

Joan Grimes

Firstly, happy birthday Joan- have a wonderful day!!

Secondly, I don't know either of the Pick a Plots. Yikes!

Thirdly, yes, I'm definitley planning to see Elizabeth I. Both hub and I are big Helen Mirren fans.

Fourthly, yes, I know about UNDER THE GREENWOOD TREE, having recently done two Hardy groups at BNU- FAR FROM THE MADDING CROWD and RETURN OF THE NATIVE. Not sure if I'll get to watch that one or not, so may tape it. Anything British, my hub doesn't like at all due to accents. I watch all that stuff when he's out of town, though. Just ordered the BBC production of THE WAY WE LIVE NOW and I'll definitely be watching that alone.

Fifthly, I will pick up that Time issue. I'm eagerly awaiting the movie.

Sixthly- and last- in re this

Scootz, you have to win the Oscar for She Who Reads in the Strangest Places. I have not been able to get the mental photo of you reading in the theater while waiting for the feature with a book light out of my mind! First Place!!!

:::steps to podium, Oscar in hand::::

I'd like to thank Cinemark for providing such a fine reading spot, high back seats, and popcorn. I'd like to thank Radio Shack for providing the lights, without which this award would not have been possible. I thank hub for the chauffering and lastly, but not leastly (;0 )I'd like to thank all the great authors who have provided all the great books over the years without whom my waiting time would have been so less interesting.

Happy Birthday Joan, Queen Elizabeth and my husband Don. Quite a lovely group.

Thanks Judy! You mean this is Don's birthday too. Please give him a Happy Birthday wish from me.

Joan Grimes

Double clap clap clap from me here, I will never go into a movie theater again without looking for the Book Light! hahahyahaa

Happy Birthday Joan G and Queen E and Don!

So...anybody got any guess on the two Pick a Plots? No it does not concern Queen Elizabeth.

(Isn't that going to be SUPER tho tomorrow?)

I always tuck a book and book light into my purse if I go to the theater alone. I hate the previews so I usually read through those, too. I don't think it's a strange place to read. I can't imagine reading while going down a river. Think of all the plants and rocks and animals you might miss!

Kleo

Ginny - Yes I did have that version of Black Beauty. The tragedy was that my Mum put all my books in a big box in the basement. There was a flood and the books were ruined. Mum had no respect for books I fear. Some of the books were prizes for essay competitions and were very precious to me. I miss them still!

Carolyn

Carolyn,

That's so sad. You will, I think, always remember that box of books. I remember loaning a friend piles and piles of my comic books:Little Lulu, Archie, Veronica and the Gang, etc. My friend, Sharon, never gave me back those comic books. I have never forgotten those stacks of comic books. My dad didn't like comic books. He would fuss and fume. Then, he would give me twelve cents knowing I would go to the drugstore to buy another comic book.

Your loss is greater than my loss. You lost a box of books. That makes me sad.

Re "What do you all think about the 9/11 movie coming out?"

I have mixed feelings. We did hear so much when the disaster happened and it wasn't very long ago.

I always feel very sad as I drive by a beach in New London toward my parents' house. I pass a large old house overlooking the mouth of the Thames. (The house used to be a casino - the one Eugene O'Neill used to go to and referred to in "Long Day's Journey Into Night.") A family was living there on 9/11 - a man and wife and their little girl. The wife and daughter were flying to the west coast out of Logan Airport on 9/11. The wife's best friend was going with them, but caught a different plane out of Logan that day. Turns out both of their planes flew into the World Trade Center.

I always think of that driving by the house overlooking the Thames. The poor husband sold the house not long after the disaster.

Just wanted to say thanks for the nice birthday messages to me in this discussion. I tried to thank people individually but might have missed some so I am saying thanks to everyone here.

Joan Grimes

Judy Laird,

Yikes! My husbands name is Don also. Are there other Judys and Dons out there? Should we start a club?

Joan, Happy Birthday. You are sharing this birthday with my Granddaughter. We did not know about the Queen. I will inform My GD tomorrow of the honor she shares with two Greats --Joan and Queenie.

Best wishes.

Judy

I remember sobbing my way through this one as a child. I loved anything written about dogs and horses. Remember, Lad-A Dog" by Albert Payson Terhune? I have an old copy of that one but not Black Beauty.

I just finished "Marley and Me" and sniffled and wiped away tears through the last fifty pages or so. That family loved their dog!

My class in 6th grade went crazy over dog stories. In addition th Alber Payson Terhune, there was an author who wrote stories about individual dog breeds. Can't remember his name, but seems like he included a military rank, i.e., Major somebody. Although I am kept by two cats, I can't pass a dog without oohing and ahing "such a pretty boy".

I liked Black Beauty, but My Friend Flicka and Misty of Chincateague were my favorites as a child. Flicka had a sequel.. Thunderhead, who was Flickas foal..I had a pony and was entirely horse crazy until I hit 8th grade and turned boy crazy, but the horses stayed with me until I married a non horse person..I gave it up because of the moving, but still regret not sticking to it. An old friend raises Connemara Ponies and I go to visit her in Pennsylvania and get to play with her ponies.

Yes, Ann, I sure do remember Lad a Dog, I read everything Albert Payson Terhune wrote and until recently had all of his books, I fear they have gone missing. I especially liked Sunnybank, Home of Lad as he talked about his home there in the Ramapo Mountains of New Jersey?!?

We also lived in NJ and that fascinated me. He was convinced his dogs returned as ghosts and the other dogs could see them. He was also incensed at the people who would drive up to his private estate without being asked, and spent much print talking about how he kept them out. Or rather how he kept out the very people he wanted to see and the others ignored his signs. He felt that the local people of the Ramapo Mountains were like those out of Appalachia (read it sometime) and it's quite interesting. He was a good writer but not without his cranks. He did love those dogs.

How do you like Marley and me? We have a dog named Marley, he's 7 years old.

Marni how awful, the Thames? So your family is originally from England? I am not sure why that did not register on me. I don't know anybody even remotely connected to the 9/11 events, but have still not been able to visit Ground Zero. I took my own little boys to the top of the World Trade Center too many times, I can't imagine the horror of it and the heroism of so many of the people now being revealed in bits and pieces. I can't listen to the tapes of the 911, but I think the new movie will show incredible heroism on the part of the passengers of was it Flight 93, what a horror, it will never be erased.

Carolyn, I agree with Hats, what a loss. And you feel that loss so much more than other books lost over time. I am sorry. Those illustrations were SO pretty, can't you see them now? I msut have read that book 1000 times. Merrilegs, was it? Loved the one at the end.

Mrs. Sherlock, I seem to remember those, too, and of course "On, King!" on the radio, Sargeant Preston of the Yukon, never forget him! Hahaha

Stephanie, oh HORSES now, how about Smokey the Cow Horse and all the Black Stallion books? I read Misty of Chincoteague and all the Arabian ones, there was a series on those, too?

I was a horse NUT. Still am but am too old. Got my son's 1974 Schwinn out yesterday, took it to the bike shop (where it attracted no end of attention). And in getting it off the truck (it weighs a proper ton) and in walking it into the shop it's just like leading a horse, I kind of liked that, maybe it will have less kick? hahaha

Do you realize that Schwinn has put a serial number on every bike, telling the month and date it was made and how many(ours was August 1974) ? These are the old bikes, Schwinn has been sold resold and now is bought out twice). Shame. Anyway I'm taking it up, never too old or crazy, right? I am tired of seeing people 30 years older than I am in Europe, in Amsterdam cycling past windmills, in Italy cycling on the Appian Way, I want to cycle, too. Before I do, tho I want to kill self at home first (it's a man's bike) hahahaa

Joan G, looks like a VERY popular day you picked for a birthday! Hahaha A good omen, hope it was a good one!

This morning on television the plot of one of the mystery Pick a Plots (both in the Non Fiction section of our Archives) was front and center on the news!! Any ideas??

MaryZ and patwest, tell me somebody took a photo of you all together at the Elderhostel??!!??

Can we see it? What a coincidence!! What did you study??

Oh I have a question, this is SO ignorant, I do apologize but in ordering a copy of Brideshead Revisited (we have so many good reads nominated in the Houseboat discussion, come see) that I am going to read all of them over the summer, but it asked do you want paperback (I don't like the cover illustration) or "cloth."

I don't know what cloth is? Why do they say cloth, the book has come and it's what I'd call hardback (and I don't like the cover illustration hahahaa) where's the cloth?

Inquiring Ignorant Minds are tired of wondering? Anybody know?

Ginny, John took a picture of the two of us. I've sent it to Pat - I think she's going to size it properly and find someplace on SeniorNet to post it.

John and I are still in Farmington, but Pat got away early this morning, and I didn't get a chance to say "see ya next time". But she can read it here when she gets home.

Everyone is always welcome in the club of those ignorant of all the things we never even thought of before we became deluged in information on the Internet highway.

'Cloth' is usually what we mortals call a hardcover book, the hard cover is covered with cloth.

Does this help? I once thought that cloth meant the good-quality trade papers that are paper covers covered in cloth, but apparently that is something else. I found this out a while ago while seeking a 'hardback' of a book my grandfather wrote and finding only 'cloth' and it turned out the 'cloth' was a 'hardback.'

I've exceeded my knowledge on the subject by a factor of 2 or 3.

Kleo

Before SeniorNet crashes again, yes "cloth" means hard cover. I have no idea why it's called cloth. I have the paperback edition of Brideshead, the one with a cover from the Masterpiece Theater or some other production of the novel. Is there another one now?

By the way, it's a short novel and it took some 12-14 weeks to do the whole book for TV, one hour each week. And they really did do the whole book too. I watched an episode and then read the book, or maybe I did it the other way around, and they were covering everything, even the description. It amazed me how many hours were consumed in rendering the book as it was written.

Maryal

Maryal,

Howdy, it is actually called cloth because cloth IS used in producing it, somehow. Usually cotton, but also silk, sometimes other exotic cloths and manufactured (chemically) cloths, too, I think.

So, there is a reason. Still, when did hardcover disappear? I've noticed 'cloth' more and more as a listing. I was looking up a textbook the other day and it was pretentiously listed as available in 'cloth' for $134 and 'paper' for a mere $34.

Kleo

Kleo--Only thing I can think of is Books in Print's designation. When ordering books I always have to look for the ones that are pbk and not cloth. Maybe since booksellers also check Books in Print, that's the explanation?

Ginny: I grew up in New London, CT, a city built at the mouth of the Thames River. (I should have mentioned CT.) Those old Puritans really liked to name places in the new world after the place they had left. But we pronounce the Thames with a Th as in "thief" and a long A as in "place."

Happy belated b-day, Joan and Queenie. Did anyone see the first of two programs "Elizabeth I" on HBO tonight. Was very good. I'm sure they will repeat it before doing the second part.

I always take ear plugs to the movies and to concerts.

The volume is always much too high for my poor ears, sometimes they literally hurt w/out the ear plugs. i can still hear everything, it just takes the edge/shrill off, even in the music concerts......jean

Do you remember in old books those marble looking pages facing the cover on both insides?

http://www.dbrooker.com/bookcloth.html

http://www.dickblick.com/zz128/45/

Cloth - I thought it refers to older books which are hardbound with the hard board covered in some kind of cloth - we have a good many here

Marbling - the marbled end papers in old books are sometimes very beautiful. We have a few old journals and account books from 19th century with superb endpapers and cloth bound hard covers. Old Minute Books and the like are also similar. E.M Forster inherited an very old and large Notebook 'bound in boards and leather, and containing some four hundred pages of fine quality paper' It also had marbled end papers and dated from 1804 He inherited it in 1924 and it was virtually unused so he decided to make it his 'Commonplace Book' to jot down things he considered important. His comments on his reading of other authors is fascinating - so too his other opinions on this and that. I picked my copy up (almost mint) for next to nothing at a library sale.

I'm away for a while - going into the forest to hug a few trees

Bubble, those examples of book cloth are impressive. Did you notice the glow-in-the-dark business cards?

I thought it was a bit extreme. lol I have seen some printed on silk and a little bigger than the usual, that can be used to wipe spectacles in an emergency.

Thank you Deems and Kleo!

Deems, the new paperback of Brideshead has a drawing of two pair of trousers crossed, as if two men are seated talking, I don't feel that sort of fits, but it's been a LONG time since I read BR. But the hardback (cloth Everyman, see below) has a strange sort of photo gauzy grid and the actual author peeking back which I REALLY don't like, isn't that strange? I like what he created rather than looking at him. Or is it all and the same?

Intrigued by your discussion I want to Wikipedia and found THIS and now am more confused than ever. I refuse to tear apart my new Everyman but I MIGHT look back...back...at some of my older books and see if I can SEE this "cloth?"

5 Forms of Commercial Book Binding:
From Wikipedia Online

Modern commercial binding:

There are various commercial techniques in use today. Commercially-produced books today tend to be of one of four categories:

A hardcover or hardbound book has rigid covers and is stitched in the spine. Looking from the top of the spine, the book can be seen to consist of a number of signatures bound together. When the book is opened in the middle of a signature, the binding threads are visible. The signatures in modern hardcover books are typically octavo (a single sheet folded three times), though they may also be folio, quarto, or 16mo. See the discussion below and book size. Unusually large and heavy books are sometimes bound with wire or cable.

The covers of modern hardback books are of thick cardboard. Until the mid 20th century those of mass-produced books were covered in cloth, but from that period onwards most publishers adopted clothette, a kind of textured paper which vaguely resembles cloth but is easily differentiated on close inspection.

A paperback or soft cover book consists of a number of signatures or individual leaves between covers of much heavier paper, glued together at the spine with a strong flexible glue; this is sometimes called perfect binding. Mass market paperbacks and pulp paperbacks are small (16mo size), cheaply made and often fall apart after much handling or several years. Trade paperbacks are more sturdily made, usually larger, and more expensive.

A cardboard article looks like a hardbound book at first sight, but it is really a paperback with hard covers. It is not as durable as a real hardbound; often the binding will fall apart after a little use. Many books that are sold as hardcover are actually of this type. Notably, the Modern Library series is of this class. A sewn book is constructed in the same way as a hardbound book, except that it lacks the hard covers. The binding is as durable as that of a hardbound book.

The rise of desktop publishing has brought a fifth form into the commercial market, as well.

A comb-bound book is made of individual sheets, each with a line of slits punched near the bound edge. A curled plastic "comb" is fed through the slits to hold the sheets together. Comb binding allows a book to be disassembled and reassembled by hand without damage.

Who KNEW? I think book binding is fascinating. I never go to a museum that I don't seek it out, from the first papermaking to the finished product. Am I the only person who looks for stiching and glue in a book?!?

I would LOVE to hear a talk on bookbinding!

Marni, Thames, CT!?! Who knew II? I am glad to hear you pronounce the TH, that explains a LOT to me about some pronunciations I have heard of the one in London England from people in New England!!

I have never read The Virginian! But I have read Ben Hur, and it was very good. I thought it better than the movie and I also thought Gone With the Wind was better than the movie and both movies were and are Icons I guess?

Jan way back there you talked about boarding school. For some reason I was obsessed with reading about this experience. I never went to boarding school but the book I most loved was ABOUT that experience , a huge thick thing which I nearly wore out at the library, I wish I could remember its name. When you think about how many books ON that subject and kindred themes (like Heidi) there are, it's striking. Do you think that experience (which people still do I believe) is a positive one?

I loved this: A Book Of Poetry which I studied from in 1962-3, my senior years. It's covered in notes in Copperplate handwriting and such tiny letters. I'd have Buckley's chance of doing it now. The line "Far on the ringing plains of windy Troy" has "perfect craftsmanship" written beside it and beside "for my purpose holds to sail beyond the sunset, and the baths of all the western stars until I die" it says "pure poetry".I love it, and I had Break, Break Break read at my husbands funeral.

What is Buckley's chance?!? Haahaa

I have only the faintest memory of Break Break Break, how does it go, but the very first thing they ever gave me in school and I will never forget it, was a lined notebook in which we copied out poetry. That's what we did in the first grade, copied out poetry and read it. I am not sure today's children (you grandparents can speak to this one) read poetry, do they?

And we memorized it. Memorization today seems to be frowned on, or is it, still? I can recall my first poem too. The first line went "My Pa held me up to the moo cow moo." How's THAT for deathless poetry? Haahaha

Scootz, the Turn of the Screw is another one I never read! But creepy, that's the word for Ishiguro's Never Let Me Go, is it sci fi? I'm only about 5 pages into it, a tad too much for me this time.

Stephanie, I never read Ethan Frome, either! But most disappointing Julius? I love Julius Caesar and this year is the big Shakespeare festival, I'd like to see us do one of the lesser known histories, myself, here on SN. So much to read and discuss, so little time!

Pedln what an interesting memory of your old and crazy teacher, I had one (many ones) too. I hope you all will join us in Teacher Man in July, I'm really looking forward to it, I have MANY teacher memories to share, we'll have a high old time with that one!

Hahah Joan G, on your book report, I can sympathize. Would this be a good venue to admit that I actually made up a couple of book reports along the way? Shame on me, but they'd assign stuff (do you all remember this?) in arcane categories to get you to read. I already read, a LOT, (I was very young this was about the 4th or 5th grade) and did nothing much else, but here came the time and no book report on that specific topic (American History before 1800's: a biography, say) because I was not interested in that, so I'd make the book UP? The author, the book and write a report on it. This was before the internet. Would you believe it worked? It's a miracle I have not led a life of crime.

Hhahaa Mippy and gumtree and Scootz on Cold Mountain, how about the latest two in the heading, of the current Pick a Plot? I did like the movie a Town Called Alice but would you believe I never read To Kill a Mockingbird? Nor saw the movie! What does that MAKE me?

Judy, I have never read Thomas Mann, either. I can see right now I'd be hard pressed to be in that contest The Most Famous Book I Never Read (would probably win it, actually) hahaaha

THERE is Oscar Winner #2~!!!!! It was NOT Venezuela, it was the Yangtzee!

Judy Shernock, come on down, you're the Oscar Winner for Strangest International Place to read a book!~

Perhaps sailing on a boat up the Yangtzee river in China

Why were you reading a book and not looking at the scenery!?!

Hahahah this is getting kind of redundant, Ann, have never even HEARD of Amos Bronson Alcott, much less read him. Have never read Neville Shute. Hmmm what HAVE I read? Hahahaa

Scootz, let us know what you think about Trollope? Love your photo in the revolving cube above, thank you Patwest for putting that up there, love seeing us all!

Mabel, (Jean) I saw a bit of the Elizabeth I, how do you compare Mirren to Glenda Jackson?

The only show I wanted earplugs in, actually two, was the musical Starlight Express which I saw 5 times and the ABC Skating Champions special because of the very nice otherwise woman on my right who screamed "whoo HOOOOO" at every opportunity. I watched the show last Saturday ON ABC and they had tuned her out for Dick Button and Peggy Fleming but I am still deaf in the right ear. Nice lady tho.

Bubble, thank you for those links and gumtree and Bubble, yes I DO remember those marbling papers and am glad to find out what they ARE!

If anybody is interested in old books and has very deep pockets, let me recommend Phillip Pirages (prounced like courageous) Phillip J. Pirages Fine Books and Manuscripts from the 11th to the 20th century There you can see, if you get his catalogue and love old books, books to die for. I THINK but am not sure, that's where I first saw the term Incunabula which sounds vaguely unsavory, as in: Bookseller of Old, Rare & Antiquarian Books, Incunabula, Palimpsest and Manuscripts.

These people APPEAR to sell Palimpsests, too! Amazing. I see they sell on EBAY and that they have copied our own dividers of turning pages of books.

Old books new books, has it already been said? Then why kill a tree for it? Is Shakespeare enough? Do you agree or disagree with the theory that there are only (Deems will know this) so many plots in the world and there is nothing new? Then why write? What are your own thoughts on that? Is there anything that has not been said?

Ginny- I actually enjoyed NEVER LET ME GO very much. Science ? yes, fiction- hmm, it's pretty close to reality but still sci-fi at this point, I suppose. I like dark books, so it didn't bother me a all. It is melancholy, that's for sure. My f2f group is doing it next month.

Thanks for the compliment on the photot. You're sweet to notice. I think it's always nice to put a face to the screenname.

I am totally adoring the Trollope!! Frankly, I slog through my chapter of DON QUIXOTE in the morning and then eagerly grab the Trollope. Such scandals! I am very much reminded of MIDDLEMARCH, but with the rich this time. Lots of characters you love to hate.

Hmm, Ginny, I read all of the Misty series as I remember. We had to memorize poetry and I was delighted when our older son had an older teacher years ago in the 4th grade and she was a great memorizer. He learned Lil Orphan Annie and Oh Captain, My Captain among others and ended up loving it. I love Shakespeare, but not Julius Caesar or Titus..Like the comedies and a few of the tragedies. Also admit, that I dislike all of the modern stuff that they are doing to Shakespear. I now refuse to go to see anything that has been transferred to modern day or WW1 or otherwise.. Keep it in the period it was written for.

Thanks for the additional birthday wishes.

I meant to post the other day about my favorite books when I was growing up but don't think I did. If I did excuse me for mentioning them again. Daddy Long-legs and Dear Enemy by Jean Webster were really my favorites. I loved those two books. Again my mother influenced me. She had read those two books and thought I would like them. So I was introduced to them. When I was younger I loved the series that began with Miss Minerva and William Green Hill by Frances Boyd Calhoun. One of my teachers in elementary school read from those books after lunch each day.

There are so many wonderful books out there. It is really fun to me to remember those that I really enjoyed.

Speaking of my wonderful mother as I have often done here when I mention books. She has a birthday on April 25th. She will be 99 years old. She is still reading. She also works cryptograms. She really is a marvel.

Joan Grimes

Joan, my mother also introduced me to Daddy Longlegs and Dear Enemy. She loved Girl of the Limberlost, by Gene Stratton Porter. I couldn't find the charm, although I dutifully read it. What I didn't know was that my mother had been warehoused in an orphanage for a time when her divorced mother could not care for her and her three sisters. Divorce was rare in those days but her father had humiliated the entire family by bringing home his mistress! The only son of a well-off family, he was a law unto himself. Grandma had no skills and struggled to raise her girls, on the whole did a great job, but my mother felt betrayed, first by her father (she adored him) and second by her mother's abandonment. Sounds like it would make a book.

Joan - Your mum is a marvel! My dad is doing very complicated puzzles and he is coming up 90. My sister and I always say Dad has all his marbles and he is selectively deaf. If we want to talk to him about something he does not want to deal with he plays deaf. On other occasions he forgets about his deafness and will call out if he hears us discussing something interesting in the kitchen! LOL.

Carolyn

as their childhood favorites? I read everyone he wrote and most of them more than once. Of course, as a girl growing up in Kansas, in my imagination I was Dorothy. Even now one of my most prized possesions is a 1903 edition of The Wizard of Oz. By the way, it is quite different than the movie, in many ways. And did you know that the ruby slippers weren't even ruby? The color was changed for the movie. In the book they are silver. I also loved all of the Terhune books and cried over everyone. I read every book I could find that was about dogs.

My favorite place to read? On top of an old rolled up carpet laid across the rafters out in the detached garage. I had to climb like a monkey to get up there but once I did no one could find me and I could read and read and read.......for hours.

Maryal,

I'm certain it was done just to irritate me.

Ginny,

Thanks for the info.

Kleo

Kleo, hadn't thought of that, but you are probably right.

JoanG, I loved Dear Enemy and Daddy Long Legs. And then there was a movie of one of them. Does anyone remember a series with young adolescent appeal -- Betsy, Tacy, and Tib? I'm not sure of the author -- Lovelace, I think.

Ginny, stay on that bike -- 1974 -- lots of hardware there. I used to love biking and would ride 20 - 30 miles every day after work. And then, it just stopped being fun and I had to force myself on it, and I decided tht if it was silly to force myself to do somehting that was supposed to be fun. Now I think, with the right bike --- maybe a three wheeler with 24 gears. There are two absolutely fantastic biking movies you must see -- American Flyers and Breaking Away -- takes place in Bloomington, Indiana.Kind of town vs. gown. I think it put Bloomington on the map.

There's also a great biking book, but author and title elude me. A teacher at a private school in Pennsylvania sends his students on a quest -- to bicycle to Washington D.C, carrying very limited resources. Much like the ancient questers, they run into serious roadblocks.

And i liked her better than Gwynyth Paltrow or Bette Davis. The last three seemed very stylilized compared to Mirren. I can never tell if it is the actor or the director who makes those effects come to life. I also liked Jeremy Irons.

Either i have forgotten or we didn't read very many of those classics in high school. I remember reading Julius Ceasar, McBeth and Hamlet, but i don't remember the others - maybe we read Tale of Two Cities, and Silas Marner seems very familiar, but honestly I can't remember reading them, or anything about them. Oh Yes! We did read Scarlet Letter and some other New England authors. I'm confusing high school and college where i had both an Amer Lit and an Eng Lit course. I have 'erased' them from my 'computer!' There has been too much very good stuff that needed 'file space' since i left high school..........jean

My SIL gave us tickets to the original Broadway production as a Christmas present. I always loved to roller skate. There was a skating rink right at the bottom of our street when i was growing up and in non-football or basketball seasons, I spent just about every Friday night at the skating rink. So, of course, i was thrilled at SE.....jean

Pedln, I remember this series which I loved. I think the author may have been Maude? Lovelace. That rings a bell somewhere in my memories of long ago. Sue

pedln, Seems to me there was a movie of Daddy Long Legs with Fred Astaire and Leslie Caron.

This time my rememberer was working. It was made in 1955. Here's the link from IMDb.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047969/

Having just managed to catch up on all the posts here, I'd like to send belated birthday wishes to JOAN G.

The mention of all those wonderful books suddenly made me think of Oscar Wilde's The Picture of Dorian Gray , which made an enormous impression on me.

I'm catching up on posts, too. We spent Saturday roaming around Hartford in the rain pretending we were visiting from out-of-state. We went to the wonderful Rodin exhibit at the Wadsworth Atheneum. It was quite incredible to see sculptures like The Thinker, The Burghers of Calais, and The Kiss - room after room filled with his sculptures. It was interesting to read that a number of his sculptures, such as The Thinker and The Three Shades, were originally part of a fabulous intricate larger sculpture called The Gates of Hell, based on Dante's Inferno.

Jean: We used to roller skate everywhere when I was a kid. Every day that weather permitted we roller skated the 10 blocks to school. We had a roller skating rink nearby when I grew up, too. We LOVED it. Everyone had their birthday parties there. The music was organ music when I was a kid - like hockey game organ music. Today, roller skating rinks play loud loud LOUD rock etc. and have lots of lights flashing. It's a different atmosphere.

Mary Z, I remember liking "Daddy Long Legs", and sort of remember seeing the movie, but was there a French element in the book? Maybe I'll see if Netflix has it, and watch it again. My dim memory is that the movie was pretty good.

Added later: I see that in addition to the movie we remember, there was a 1919 version with Mary Pickford. I think I'll stick with Fred Astaire.

I don't think I saw the movie, Daddy Long-legs. If it was in 1955, then that was much later than the time I read it. I was already involved with having my own family by that time. So there was not much going to movies. I think I will try to find the DVD . I really do not remember much of the book now.

Joan Grimes

I do remember Daddy Long Legs, but it was quite different from the book as I recall. My Mother bought me the Bobbsey Twins series for years when young. I had a lot of them as well as another series called ??(Honeychild", I think. They were awful, but I liked the Bobbsey Twins. Learned when I had the book store, that they were written by a series of unknown authors,owned by some publisher.

If you've not seen it yet, the SeniorNet poll is one about choosing a book. Please come participate:

http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?PageID=7620

Pedln! Hahahaha Of course, your name! At the next Books Gettogether we must get up a Cycle Event, take our lunches and Pedal for Books or something. I am quite sure I shall fall off promptly the very first time I get on, it's a man's bike and I expect never get on again, just a warning here!

Hahahaa

20 miles!! If I can go 20 feet I will feel a rush! Hahahaa

OK nobody but nobody has guessed the TWO Pick a Plots so will put the answers in the heading and do a new one!

The two answers above were:

" Pick a Plot: Door #!: The plot of this book talks about an incident eerily replicated in the headlines in today's paper and on the news. Will we ever learn? But the reaction this time is different.

This one is Our Guys which details the rape of a girl by a football team and the Duke Lacrosse team is in the news constantly, a bit of a different reaction tho. It appears we HAVE learned. ________________________________________

" Pick a Plot: Door #2: This book caused the author to change his entire lifestyle and perspective after he wrote it. ________________________________________

The author witnessed something that was an horrific historic event and wrote about it in this book

This one was Jon Krakauer's Into Thin Air , an account of the disastrous 1997 climb on Mt. Everest in which so many people lost their lives.

New Pick a Plot:

Now this one is from our Fiction Archives and I must say I am enjoying looking over the field there and trying to remember the plots, anything about ANY plot! Hahaha not just what happened but why, it's not EASY, but it IS fun.

This book is not about what most people think. It's about anger and jealousy and what that can do to a person and the people around him. Recognize the plot? Take a guess!

Thank you Jane for putting up our New Books Poll and almost 600 people have already taken it! WOW!! (And my one vote is there alone). Do make your own votes count!

We have other exciting news coming in the Books and we have made our "10 New Things for our 10th Anniversary in the Books" handily and more to come, stay tuned!

The NY Times was FULL of books news yesterday. I finished up my Reichel book only to see it highlighted on their Paperback page, and I fixed her meal of lamb/ garlic/ rosemary and scalloped potatoes yesterday. She's the editor of Gourmet, I need to get that magazine: a different way of looking at food.

I had an entire set of the Bobbsey Twins, what age is that for? I loved them!

Scootz, which Trollope is it you're reading? Is he the one with Old Joyelon or whoever? I can NOT get into that, who WAS that? It was on Masterpiece Theater.

Joan G, lovely about your mum and her own birthday tomorrow, that's wonderful!

Stephanie, I kind of liked, was it Ian McKellen's ….hmmm. He did somebody, Deems will know, was it McBeth? Or…Richard III in modern dress or WWI, or II he was very compelling. Some of the more recent embodiments of Shakespeare are REALLY out there, aren't they? Makes for a good discussion topic. Whoever McKellen played, he was NASTY!

Phyll, not only have I never read the Oz books, I think I must be (hold on to your seats now) the only person on earth who has not seen the Judy Garland movie, can that be believed? From start to finish. Amazing.

Mabel, am coming to Moorestown as an adjunct of the American Classical League National Convention at the U of PA in Philly in June, are you going to be in Moorestown Sunday or Monday I think it's the 25th or 26th? If so maybe we can have a cream doughnut together? Hahahaa

OH I was an absolute FOOL for Starlight Express. Sat in London in an un air-conditioned theater so many times in 100 plus degree heat (or so it seemed, I don't know why they did not faint) it's pitiful. I may have no taste in theater? I think I am about deaf actually. We must have strange taste, did you like Cats? I hated it and gave up my seat actually half way thru to somebody else.

Another one I really disliked tho really liked the book was Les Miserables. I finally saw it touring, my DIL loves it and has seen it many many times, and I know others who have too. All I know is that the guy playing LaFarge, I guess it was, was SO bad that when that stage turned around and revealed him dead I wanted to clap. Er… Perhaps I have strange taste.

Mary, great to hear that somebody got a photo of you and Pat, can't wait to see it. We'll also put it in the heading of our Bookmobile discussion where we can do a revolving cube (Patwest can) of recent meetings of SeniorNet Readers in our Books!

Oh Mari and Mabel (Jean) roller skating! ME TOO! Yes, the roller rink,my little case with the pretty skates in it and the short short little skirt! Yes. (I'd be quite the sight in that today) Yes the music and the EGG CREAMS, yes.

I think that's why I love Wollman Rink so, I love to go sit there and watch the ICE skating. I can't DO it but it reminds me of the past I guess.

(I can still turn corners on one foot?) hahahaa

Marni, is that the original Thinker??

Traude, oh yes absolutely the Picture of Dorian Grey, what a movie, what a concept, we might like to read THAT here some day.

Come on down to the Houseboat discussion and check out the clever heading Patwest has done and help us discuss the 12 contenders, it's going to be a Perfect Spring Read, do join us, we vote May 1 and read May 15!

All my book sites were unavailable all day. Finally came back a few minutes ago.Hope the server stays on.

I too loved Daddy Long Legs and read it and reread it. The exchange of letters was charming and intriguing. Another book I read that was a wonderful exchange of Letters was Pres. Theodore Roosevelts letters to his children as he traveled the world over. He was a truly loving father and an excellent writer.

Ginny ; You asked what age is the Bobbsey Twins for? The Bobbsey Twins are for 7-9 years old. After which the girls moved on to Nancy Drew and the boys onto the Hardy Boys. I had a friend that had the old,old Tom Swift books which were a lot of fun with illustrations of things like "The Flying Machine" and "The Racing Motor Bike"..

Judy

jane--The link for voting goes to the main page--Books and Culture. Must be part of the general problem at SeniorNet.

Maryal

Ginny, Trollope I'm reading is THE WAY WE LIVE NOW. I haven't found any character with the name you say so far. The main baddie is Augustus Melmotte.

I loved Elizabeth I.. Finished off last night. Helen Mirren is just perfect as far as I could see. The way she could change like lightning. A bit gory in parts, ( just hid my eyes) but all in all.. A perfect HBO movie. I am having problems accessing senior net. How come every time they do something that is supposed to improve things, it seems to make it worse.

Ginny, Old Jolyon was in Galsworthy's "The Forsyte Chronicles" (as it is called in my edition, it also seems to be called "The Forsyte Saga"). It is a series of 6 hefty volumes, chronicling a large, well-off British family through several generations, starting in Victorian times. The first few are the best, and they definitely should be read in order. PBS showed a very long, very good version of it ~30 years ago, and a new version about 4 years ago.

Oh I loved the Original black and white Forsythe on PBS. We watch each and every one and my husband went nuts over Irenee Dawn..who was quite lovely indeed. Made me go out and hunt down the whole series and read them. They are quite fascinating and quite a lot got left out of the series.. Good books and have not thought of them for years.

jane, I went to vote in the SN poll about choosing a book. But they'd only let me pick one answer, and I wanted to give three.

Ah...Mary...choices, choices, choices!!

The poll is in the right sidebar on the Books and Culture Page.

http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?PageID=7620

jane

Plot #2 was pretty vague. Was it writing the book or the events themselves that caused the change? I read the book when it first came out and it didn't make that impression on me at all, that the author changed his life from writing the book.

Please include authors with titles!

Kleo

Is it "All is Vanity" by Christina Schwarz???

Ginny: Re "Marni, is that the original Thinker??"

Yes, but a smaller sized one. One thing we learned at the Rodin exhibit was that Rodin created a number of bronze sculptures of the same thing. He liked to try out different sizes. He used an instrument - I can't remember the name of it - but it helped artists to enlarge or downsize sculptures. We saw a fairly small Thinker. A huge one sits in front his tomb at the Pantheon. We saw a large Burghers of Calais. Rodin willed his entire estate to France, including the right to make more of his sculptures, which they have done. Each is considered an original. They have placed a limit of 12 to be produced of each, I believe.

I fell in love w/ Rodin after reading Irving Stone's (?) novel about him. Am i remembering the author correctly? That was when i was in college. I went on to read non-fiction material about Rodin and when i moved to Jersey I couldn't wait to go the Phila museum. Please go see it if you come to PHila......jean

Jean: I loved reading that Rodin married his long-time lover, Rose, just 3 weeks before she died. He died within the year. They are buried next to each other.

I remember Irving Stone's The agony and the Ecstasy. But that was about Michel Angelo. Did he write about Rodin too?

Have you heard of the scuptor Camille Claudel who lived with Rodin and inspired him? There is a great book about her dramatic life.

I had the same trouble as MaryZ with the SN poll. I ended up not posting, because I choose books about equally by several methods.

For those lovers of Rodin on the West Coast. The Stanford Museum has a wonderful collection of his works displayed in an outdoor garden. This includes "The Gates of Hell" and The Burghers of Calais. The Museum and garden are both free.

Another west coast museum with a permanent display of Rodin is The Palace of the Legion of Honor in San Francisco.

Neither of these places has as large a collection as the Rodin Museum in Phil.but both are well worth visiting .

Judy

I read abook about Rodin when I was very young. It was called NAKED CAME I, I believe. I loved it.

You are right, Scootz, thanks for the title!

WEISS, DAVID. Naked Came I: A Novel Of Rodin. William Morrow and Company, New York: 1963. 623 pages.

Just saw your picture and there you are, sitting in a swing that I have on my downstairs patio. Do you have the same problem that we do when the wind blows excessively? The darn thing blows over and its getting heavier and heavier to stand upright. Plus the swing always falls off in the process.

Just finished "Snow Flower and the Secret Diary" and truly enjoyed it. I liked it much better than "Never Let Me Go". The writing is luscious and fluid. Just a charming little book. Our F2F will be reading it next year according to our leader. Thanks to whomever recommended both of these books.

Heavens, I read the Naked, Come I.. years and years ago. Every once in a while. I did grow up south of Philadelphia and have been to the museum. Quite Wonderful.

Ginny mentioned (about 5 dozen posts back) Ian McKellen as MacBeth? or…Richard III
Years and years ago, in Washington DC, we saw McKellen play Iago in Othello.
I still remember how he looked in agony on the stage!
Then, in the next day's Post we read he had the flu and almost didn't go on ...
so he, himself, was really in agony!
Show must go on department ...

Re: Trollope, I'm re-reading the series of parliamentary novels again, (now that Latin exams have calmed down) and have finished the 2nd one, Phineas Finn, one of my favorite-in-the-world historical novels.
If you liked Middlemarsh, you'll love this novel!

I cannot figure out the name-this-book-from-plot at all ... Difficult ...

Long shot- is the Pick a Plot ATONEMENT?

So glad you enjoyed the books I recommended. One never knows.

No, my swing is much too heavy to blow over and we have very high winds here in Texas. Either your winds are worse or it's a different swing. Got mine at WallyWorld. Does yours have a basket, cupholder, book place between the two swings?

Trollope is much like Eliot, imho, though I've read little of Eliot and this is my first Trollope. But Apparently they admired each other's writings. Me, too!

Nooo, you never know if somebody else will like what you recommend, heck you don't know if YOU will like it next time.

Have any of you had that experience?

I'm having it right now. Sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't. What IS it about a book which speaks to you TODAY and not tomorrow. Am I the only one who has had that happen? I'm afraid to reread anything at this point.

What fabulous discussion here, I'm loving every minute of it!

But LOOK what has come up in the Houseboat discussion! (Hope that link works)

Out flew the web and floated wide;
The mirror crack'd from side to side;
"The curse is come upon me," cried
The Lady of Shalott.

This old poem has come up in the excellent pre discussion of the Books With House in the title which will soon take its first vote. We've discussed Bangisian Fantasy, and a lot of great things including the new Adopt a Book program from the Wharton Library. It's a super discussion. Do come on down and participate!

Those 4 lines however, have produced in several of us a longing to discuss Tennyson. We've never done Tennyson here on SeniorNet. Like the Yellow Wallpaper it's on the internet and like the Wallpaper, has a lot to say about aging, women and a lot of other things. The Red Hat Society would love it, I love it and I would LOVE to discuss it with our SeniorNetters. We'll tentatively pencil it in for November, and we may have to read some of his others, too.

You all know the story, a woman decides to look for once directly at life instead of (in her case literally as a reflection in a mirror) through a glass darkly. We can see what happens. This one issue is very powerful, her motivations, the extrapolations: this poem is one layer after layer of meaning. Or so I think. But what will we each see in it? (And I've not even gotten to Camelot, and the myths it's supposedly about).

I think a Tennyson discussion has the potential to be another Yellow Wallpaper discussion, and everybody and their opinions are more than wanted. It's not been a long time since we've done Tennyson on SeniorNet, we've never done Tennyson. Let's fix that, there was a time once that everybody read Tennyson as a matter of course. Let's do it.

Can you remember anything you've read by him offhand?

Oh and come to the Houseboat discussion and SEE what Marni has found!!!!!!!!!!! It's the Lady of Shallot in song and you can hear it in AUDIO and you have three choices of the type player you'd like. The thing gave me the CHILLS! Do come see! Just ethereal, especially if you're interested in Ireland. (I think she's Irish?) Do come see!

Kleo, good point. On your question: it was the events themselves, he's written about it quite a bit. I am not sure if the later editions of Into Thin Air include the information that that experience stopped Krakauer, that's a good point to stick only to plot details in the book we read (I have my original copy here and I think he does say that but will reread): will do in future. (Jon Krakauer was the author of Into Thin Air and Bernard Lefkowitz was the author of Our Guys, will include the authors next time, good suggestion)

But anyway, that book in which he made several accusations of those present in that horrific climb, pointing the finger of blame, was angrily refuted, first by Boukreev who, it turned out not only saved quite a few people himself but actually, depending on how you read his book had no good things to say on Krakauer, either, which itself, Boukreev having died soon thereafter on a climb, sort of really apparently seared K for good. There was a real difference of opinion, between EVERYBODY present. When you are oxygen deprived you MAY make mistakes of more than one kind.

In addition of course it was being filmed, and the filmmakers also weighed in, we read the Boukreev here as well as read the diaries of the filmmakers so that information might not have been in the original Into Thin Air, just adding more now of course that Into Thin Air as the Pick a Plot 2 been revealed. Of course right afterwards they found Mallory's body and that set the whole thing off again.

Bernard Lefkowitz which may be misspelled, really enjoyed corresponding with LJ Klein over that discussion, unfortunately he was not on the internet much so could not be present in it. He was VERY nice.

Hats!! Good choice, All is Vanity WAS about jealousy you are dead right, (who KNEW there were so many books ON this subject?!?) and Scootz, what an interesting guess in Atonement! I have not read Atonement, there may be more than one with that theme, but All is Vanity and Atonement were not the ones I was thinking about, but I think you are both dead on! No it's another one!

Thank you Jane for putting up our first Books Poll, over 600 people taking it already: WOW! We're taking suggestions for a question for the next one, don't be shy: suggest! We can't have any opinion blanks, because it has to show the votes immediately, come on down and suggest a few!?! That's Something New for us in our 10th Anniversary.

Judy, Bubble, Marni, Jean, and Scootz, and Stephanie, who KNEW so much about Rodin!!??!! I've really enjoyed learning that, I wondered vaguely why there were so many of them around! Hahaha

Thank you Ann for that recommendation of Snow Flower, I can't seem to get through the new Never Let Me Go.

Mippy what fun seeing McKellen on stage, no wonder as you say he was in agony. I saw Richard Burton in Camelot at the Lincoln Center, one of his last performances, in fact he fainted on stage the next night. We were so high up we looked face into the chandelier, have any of you ever been that high? (I don't remember the name of the theater there) but could not hear ONE thing he said. He looked like an ant on the stage but you could hear some of the others.

I also saw Yul Brynner in his last tour, this time at the Fox in Atlanta, doing The King and I, boy he was good. That movie is referenced in Shall We Dance, just a magic little Japanese film (not the Richard Gere one).

I still think it was McKellen, maybe Richard III? Who did the evil Richard III so well (I know Al Pacino did Richard III in Looking for Richard, which was a triumph, have you all seen that?)

Scootz, I want a swing, too and a basket, cupholder, book place between the two swings?

I am jealous. I want a Wally World swing for books!!! (Did you know you can order from WW online and they will ship immediately? Got a super lap robe electric that way).

Joan G mentioned One of my teachers in elementary school read from those books after lunch each day. That's a beautiful tradition, and in the past people, adult people, read to each other quite a bit. I always thought that was a lovely tradition. I was just reading about that very thing in a story I read last night. I remember my own father reading the Little House on the Prairie stories to me LONG after I could read them myself, it was special, has that tradition, that is people reading to each other as adults, died out? (I wasn't an adult in the Little House example but I was an OLD child I remember that).

How was your mother's birthday yesterday, Joan??

Jean and Stephanie, I did not get to see the last episode of the Mirren, did they explain why Elizabeth I wore all that white face powder? In the illustrations in the magazines for the movie she really stands out from the crowd of Elizabethans, did they say why?

Or maybe some of YOU all know?

Judy, thanks about the Bobbsey Twins age, I read Nancy Drew, too, and Cherry Ames, Student Nurse, did not like the Hardy Boys at ALL, for some reason. Loved Bonita Granville and actually have found one on the internet, it's not been very well taken care of, now to see if I enjoy it as much as I once did, if it holds together long enough to turn the pages, it's really a MESS.

Scootz, thank you for The Way We Live Now, I will see if they have that Friday at the B&N when I'm there.

Pat H!! AHA!! The Forsyte Chronicles THANK you! I can't seem to get past ol Joyleon being dead, is there a secret? How far should I read in it this time before just giving UP?

Stephanie I never saw the series, but I can get it I think (can I Pat) on Netflix? Would you recommend it now? I am somewhat disappointed in the old Upstairs Downstairs, now reviewing, not what I remembered.

Hats did you know Lord & Taylor (formerly Wannamakers in Philly ) has been sold…I think to Macy's and they have closed it till the reopening but the Organ Society says that they WILL be preserving the grand Wannamaker Organ? I am not sure if they will preserve the EAGLE (if they don't, Hats and I will march on the store!) hahaaha

I will miss it on my trip. Thank you Mabel (Jean), for the great recommendations for those traveling to the area, I think I'll just sneak in the Hippo exhibit at the Camden Aquarium, how long can it take? Hahahaa Where again in Lenola is that Copper Beech?

We're having a real Trollope revolution here, is he the one who wrote Can You Forgive Her? I am not sure why I seem to remember that title. I have not read any Trollope. I am beginning to wonder what I have read! Hahaha

But seriously, have you ever found that a book you once just loved or thought was the be all and end all, was, when you reread it NOW, not? It's quite disillusioning, and the thing IS, the BOOK has not changed?

I am not sure what to think, it's happening to me as we speak!!

We're having a real Trollope revolution here, is he the one who wrote Can You Forgive Her? I am not sure why I seem to remember that title. I have not read any Trollope. I am beginning to wonder what I have read! Hahaha

He is indeed the author of CAN YOU FORGIVE HER?

But seriously, have you ever found that a book you once just loved or thought was the be all and end all, was, when you reread it NOW, not? It's quite disillusioning, and the thing IS, the BOOK has not changed?

Absolutely this has happened to me and I'm surprised that you're surprised. The book didn't change m'dear, but you did. Our reading tastes change dramatically over time, don't you think? I wouldn't be caught dead reading romance stuff now but I did when I was young. As I've aged, I've wanted more substance in my readings. There is so much out there that's just average. I want the stuff that's a cut above.

I read Katherine Neville's THE EIGHT years ago and thought it was great. Recommended it to my f2f and we read it. We all hated it and thought it was silly to the max! even me!! So, yeah, it happens!

Loreena McKennitt (Scottish) sings "The Lady of Shallot" on her album "The Visit." I had downloaded the songs of the album a few years ago. The entire album is very beautiful - Celtic sound - she has a lovely voice. But the song "The Lady of Shallot" is spellbinding. I had never read the Tennyson poem until I heard her song, but the song got me to read his poem. I just loved them both.

Ginny, If you didn't like MIDDLEMARCH, don't try this one. To me, this book is rather like MIDDLEMARCH on steroids.

Loads of characters, all reacting and interacting with one another, but this one is scandal filled, financial in nature (a huge railway company figures here, not to mention the dirty- dealing head of same) . They're all trying to cash in, cheating and swindling as they go. The book created quite some bad press...check this out:

From Saturday Review, July 17, 1875.

"THE WAY WE LIVE NOW. We must begin by quarreling with the incivility of Mr. Trollope's title. "The way we live!"...The satirist has put all the vices attributed to society into a bag, shaken them together, and made a story out of them, and nothing else. "

And how can I not love a book about which Henry James said the following:

"A more copious record of disagreeable matters could scarcely be imagined....than THE WAY WE LIVE NOW."

Seems some people were a smidge miffed at Trollope's portrayals. I love that.

I ordered the BBC production(nominated for eight BAFTA awards) and will watch it once I finish the book. Can't wait.

on Hooten Rd in Mt Laurel. If you take Church St from Main St, Moorestown toward Mt Laurel, cross rt 38, Hooten Rd is the second left turn off of Church. Since you lived behind the Friends School, you may be more comfortable going up Main St to Mt Laurel Rd, cross rt 38 and the first second right turn is Hooten Rd. Alice Paul rode her horse to Friends School taking those streets when she was a girl. If you have time, call ahead and they will arrange a tour of the property and the house and you can ask for me as your tour guide, if you want. I'm teaching this semester, so depending when you are coming, i may not be available, but if i am i'd love to meet you and give you the tour.......jean

The Eagle must stay!! We will march and carry signs. I know, we will sit in front of the store and not move. It's so hard to live through change. What you have loved can disappear in a matter of moments. All of a sudden there is a new name, new structure or what you cared about is completely gone.

Ginny, we could write a book. The title is "The Eagle and Friends." Oh, we could work on our title later.

There are two theatres at Lincoln Center. The Vivian Beaumont is the larger and seats over a thousand and the smaller, more intimate theatre is the Mitzi Newhouse, which seats around 300. Camelot, during its regular run, was at the Majestic Theatre on Broadway and that is where I saw it. Did you see a special production at Lincoln Center? The big chandelier in the Metropolitan Opera House at Lincoln Center is always raised during a performance.

We went to Lincoln Center several times because I was a ballet "nut". I saw Barisnyikov dance there, also Peter Martins and many others. Wonderful times!

O.K. whats Wally World?? Us ignorant west coast person wants to know

Judy, when people here say "Wally World," they mean WalMart.

jane

Judy, sort of like in Texas where Mickey-D's means McDonald's.

MIPPY, I read a cople of Trollope's 'parliament' books, but didn't like them as well as the ones with the ecclesiastical background. But I suppose that's to be expected, since I never could make sense out of politics. ...Babi

Well for goodness sake why don't they just say Wal Mart?? I thought Mickey-D's was a bar. hehe

I loved Trollope's Barchester Towers. It's fun to read Angela Thirkell's books, about a WWII Barchsetshire.

omigoodness! How nice to hear about Angela Thirkell. Many years ago, my best friend and I spent all summer Trolloping and Thirkelling!! I have a few of her books and although they are sadly outdated in a lot of ways, particularly in how prejudiced they seem sometimes to our modern eyes, still can be fun to read in conjunction with Trollope.

Lordy, I'm loaded down with week. I just returned Mary Queen of Scots by John Guy and I loved it. I must have ancient Royal blood coursing thru me. I love those stories, particularly Elizabeth I. I read Shalimar the Clown and did not care for rushdie. that was the first attempt at him. I now have Patterson's 3rd Degree, Summer in Tuscany by Adler, a Biography of Mozart by Marcia Davenport, The Last Templar, The lost Light by Michael Connely and my daughter left me a book that she just finished and enjoyed, entitled The Glass Castle. I will be sorry as I have not exercised much and have just kicked back and enjoyed my readings. Now off to pick on poor Don Q and Sancho Belly.

Judy L., I'm so glad you asked before I tried to find www.wallyworld.com. And Mickey D's? Unbelievable, for both. I'll have to try that with the folks around here.

Ann, glad you liked Secret Fan and Snow Flower. I'm taking it and a bunch of other library books to DC and Virginia next week. Before I go I'm picking up The Book Thief by Markus Zusak (Australian writer). Did someone here tell about it -- something prompted me to put it on reserve at the library, but Amazon's description is not what I remember -- set in Nazi Germany, Death narrates the story of a child who steals books. Although deemed an adult book, it's also designated YA.

I've never read any Trollope, but usually like novels with political background. But she will have to wait until after the House book.

Hi Pedlin

Have a great trip.

Last night I encountered my first Captain Underpants book. I can see why the kids love them so much. They poke very irreverant fun at the School principal while not taking away from the fact that actions have consequences. I read a chapter to my grands before bed last night. They are not baby books.

Carolyn

Carolyn, my 9 and 7 year old grandsons love Captain Underpants. I started reading them to them when they were 6 and 4. Now they read them for themselves. They are a hoot! (the boys and Captain Underpants, too).

I think I've seen a McDonald's commercial on TV where they say come on in to Mickey D's. It's very commonly called that around here. I've heard a few people use Wally World, but not as often. Sue

Apparently my almost 6yr old grandson Nikolas is into Captain Underpants in a big way too. He is like Brooke either reads nothing but humorous books or non fiction. Neither of them are into anything else. They don't like adventure books apart from Harry Potter or the Narnia Chronicles. Brookes current reading apart from Captain Underpants is a book on genetics she asked her mother to get out the library for her.

carolyn

<bg> JOAN, where else could you tell people you went "Trolloping", and not be misunderstood! lol

Babi

There was never an explanation in Elizabeth I about the white makeup, but I do remember in one book or another that Elizabeth used it. I think the intent was to appear youthful, but am not quite sure. She was busy in the second hours trying to keep a young not quite lover and did not succeed. Made her out to be foolish up to a point, but when he interfered with government, she reverted to type.. Interesting indeed. Oh me, I read Trollope in my 30's, but only two or three..Too political for me and I am not a great reader of any sort of politics.

Okay, I won't buy the Brooklyn Bridge, but you can probably sell me a lot of other stuff. Meanwhile I'll enjoy my underground cubby-hole because when I come up for air it gets a little distressing.

Two articles from the New York Times. If the links don't work (because I'm select ) go to it's home page and find them. They're on today's front page, and they are truly upsetting to me.

No doubt you've all heard about the Harvard sophomore who received a$500,000 advance from Little, Brown, and now it turns out that this young woman has copied some dialog from her favorite author -- M. McCafferty -- who she? But what I find really upsetting is that it was a "book packager" (unknown in my cabbage patch environment) that got her started. Some company that picks a plot, a character, a setting, and then sets out to find an author. Talk about illusions being smashed.

"Well, let's see. We need a book about a young Indian-American girl who doesn't have a boyfriend and is worried about getting into an Ivy League college. Oh, I know just the person. She'll write the book and we'll get part of her royalties." Shades of Edwin Streetemeyer.

Enough said, read the articles, tell me I'm naive and it's done all the time. Just don't tell me Charles Frazier, Judith Guest, Marilynne Robinson, et al, did this.

First, Plot and Character. Then, Find an Author

Novelist Says She Read Copied Books Several Times

I saw this young gal yesterday on the Today show. The lines quoted by Katie Couric from the two books were startlingly alike- in one case almost word for word. The gal claimed she read the books by McCafferty and must have assimilated the info and unconsciously used it. O-k. I'm amazed that she thought she wouldn't be caught. Films rights have already been set, also. Amazing~

And the Raytheon CEO, William Swanson, seems to have taken many of his "unwritten rules" book for CEO's from a work published in 1944. He denies the plagarism in a USA Today article where they list them side by side. Hard to understand his "not guilty" when they're word for word.

USA Today article

Speaking of newspaper articles, there was one in the Hartford Courant today that caught my eye. Doris Kearns Goodwin is speaking in Hartford tomorrow about her Lincoln book Team of Rivals (fabulous book.) She is also unveiling a sculpture of Lincoln speaking with Harriet Beecher Stowe, apparently representing his famous meeting with her when he supposedly asked her, "Are you the little lady who started the war?" (or something like that.) The Stowe house is in Hartford next to Mark Twain's house.

Apparently, Goodwin is planning to write a book about Teddy Roosevelt.

I imagine Goodwin will be VERY careful with this new book so she will not again be accused of plagiarism as she was with the book she wrote about the Fitzgeralds and the Kennedys. She never really admitted the plagiarism, I believe, but she did "correct" later editions of the book.

Our high school students learn the basics of the research process in their junior year while they attempt a major paper. They revel in calling it their "junior paper" -- I think because it denotes another passage on the way to adulthood. CEO Swanson could take a lesson from them. His paraphrasing would not pass muster; he could have at least put these rules in his own words. Furthermore, even a reworded statement that came from another source would be documented in an end note by these beginning researchers. One wonders why Swanson did not just give King, the 1944 author, credit to begin with, and then go on from there.

Marni--Harriet B. Stowe was very short and Lincoln was well over six feet when I think the average for men was around 5'6 or 7. Lincoln said, I think, "Is this is the little woman who started this big war?"

I'll have to look it up. Lincoln was not only a superb writer (come back, Mr. Lincoln, we really need you now) but he was apparently very witty and good with one-liners.

As for plagiarism, I suspect that although a CEO could get away a while plagiarizing rules from a probably extremely dry and uninteresting book from 1944, many more plagiarism incidents are being caught these days. As the internet continues to expand, it's going to be even harder and writers are going to have to stay away from the books of others unless they are quoting from them because it gets ever easier to catch them.

Maryal

From the Harriet Beecher Stowe site:

"So you're the little woman who wrote the book that started this Great War!"

Decided I had to check it since too many "this"es ruin a sentence and Lincoln was good with the language. Also "great" and not "big."

Did any of you here read Julia Glass' National Book Award winner, THREE JUNES?

If you did, and if you enjoyed it (as I did very much) she is soon to release her next book on May 23rd, entitled THE WHOLE WORLD OVER. It has a character in it who appeared in the earlier book. I had the great privilege to do an online book with Julia and she was just the best.

I am posting the link to her new one coming out, for those who may be interested. Wonder if we could get her to come here? Is that ever done?

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/BookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0375422749&itm=3

I was appalled to see essays for English assignments for sale on the internet! I hope the teachers google for all these sites, What a lot of work teachers have now when there are so many unethical kids. What a world we live in!

Carolyn

I have started reading "The Last Girls" by Lee Smith. I think Stephanie mentioned this book. In the beginning one point really captured my attention. The narrator is remembering her Literature professor. She remembers how dramatic he made the story "Huckleberry Finn." Then, the professor talks about Huck's loneliness. The narrator admits to not remembering Huck's feelings of loneliness. I don't remember his feeling that way either. Here is the passage.

"Then I set down in a chair by the window and tried to think of something cheerful, but it warn't no use. I felt so lonesome I most wished I was dead. The stars were shining, and the leaves rustled in the woods ever so mournful; and I heard an owl, away off...."

The narrator goes on to say the passage about Huck's loneliness made her feel his feelings deeply, "as personal, deep in her bones."

To me, this is such good writing. It's that type of writing that touches you deep in your soul. The intimacy of feelings has been shared with someone in a book. It's twice better than this, of course, when it happens in real life.

Since I have talked about my mother and her influence on my reading habits so much in this discussion. I would like to show you a couple of photos taken last weekend at the birthday party given for my mother by her church. I am just putting links to the photos so that you can look at them if you like.

The first one is of me, my mother and my brother.Me. my mother , and my brother

The second one is of my mother enjoying herself with her cake.MOther with her cake

Joan Grimes

JoanGrimes,

What beautiful memories. My mother and father have been long gone. Thanks for sharing such a special day.

Joan, It looks like your Mom and all had a wonderful birthday!

Someone asked about ideas for polls? Am I dreaming that? Anyhow, since I'm new, I have no way of knowing what has alredy been done but here are two thoughts-

a poll inre REreading

a poll about reading aloud

Hats: I really loved Huckleberry Finn. It wasn't the comedy you see in movie versions. Poor Huck with his dreadful father and some of the awful scenes he witnessed during his oddysey on the Mississippi. What a book. Don't some critics say it is the greatest American novel ever written?

Hi Marni,

I definitely want to reread it. I think it has been called one of the greatest American novels.

If someone asked for ideas about polls, it wasn't here in the Book Nook. I just searched on the word "poll" and the discussion seemed to be about the SeniorNet poll about books that is on the Home Page.

There are a couple of ways you can search for posts about a particular thing:

In the upper right of the page you can click on "Printer Friendly"
then you will get a page with more posts and
(at least in Windows Internet Explorer) go to Edit and Find xxx on the page.
Click on the Search button just above and below all the posts and enter what you are looking for;
go to the bottom of the page and select "Search This Location";
click Search.

Good luck!

Let me know if this isn't clear.

Marjorie-

You're very clear!

And it's weird because I cannot find it even with the search. There was some talk about the newest opinion poll and someone asked about ideas for new polls. Oh well....ok, so forget I said anything. LOL

Joan, great pictures your Mother looks so pretty and like she is having a good time.

On Elizabeth's make-up, the ideal of beauty for those times was a very pale, white skin. By the time the thick white make-up was applied, and the equally mandatory red cheeks and lips, the result was, to our modern eyes, almost clownish.

Babi

It's a good idea to keep in mind also that Elizabeth had smallpox when she was still a young woman. Since she almost died (her sickness was responsible for more pressure on her to provide an heir), I'm guessing that she must have had pox scars on her face.

Those of you who saw the recent production of Bleak House on PBS will remember that one of the girls (was it Esther?) developed small pox and was left with scars.

Also Elizabeth was a red head and thus had the pale skin typical of those with red hair.

I think her makeup would have served two purposes--it would have helped conceal any scars and it would keep her skin the pale skin of her youth.

Too bad that makeup in those days left more than a little to be desired. And that people didn't wash that much. Think of layers of makeup building up.

I've recently read Lee Smith's The Last Girls and found it to be a poignant memoir of the girl who initiated the raft tour--sorry I can't remember her name. I agree that the writing is very good. Have you read her Fair and Tender Ladies? I have not read the book, but the Alabama Shakespeare Festival put this on as one of their Southern Writers' productions a few years ago. I cried a lot during that play. It was very well done--and reminded me a lot of women I have known. Sue

Sue

I will definitely put "Fair and Tender Ladies" on my library list. Thank you.

CAROLYN : "I was appalled to see essays for English assignments for sale on the internet! "

Unfortunately, only the use of the internet is new. Homework essays have been for sale for a long time. When I taught, I used to assign papers with very specific questions that had to be answered, and refuse to accept any that did not cover the material. I still got some that had obviously been bought or copied, but I could reject them as not answering the assignment, and avoid having to prove that they were copies -- extremely hard to do.

Re Elizabeth I's makeup. I read that high foreheads were in fashion at that time and ladies plucked back their hairlines as much as an inch to make their foreheads higher. Ouch!

Some of the Elizabethan makeup was made from poisonous substances. For instance:

"This pale skin could be achieved by a number of means, the most popular being ceruse, a mixture of white lead and vinegar that was favored by the nobility and by those who could afford it. This white foundation was applied to the neck and bosom as well. The first record of this skin-whitener was found in 1521, and by the time of Elizabeth's reign was well-established as an essential item for the fashionable woman. Naturally, spreading lead upon one's skin caused a variety of skin problems; some authors of the time warned against it, describing how it made the skin "grey and shrivelled", and suggesting other popular mixtures such a paste of alum and tin ash, sulpher, and a variety of foundations made using boiled egg white, talc, and other white materials as a base. Egg white, uncooked, could also be used to "glaze" the complexion, creating a smooth shell and helping to hide wrinkles."

Here's more from this interesting article:

http://groups.msn.com/ALLMYTUDORShistorychat/yourwebpage12.msnw

That is a wonderful link Marni! Thanks for that.

Thanks Scootz, Judy and anyone that I missed thanking for the nice comments on my mother's party photos. I tried to keep up but did not get back here as often as I should have.

Joan K, you are so right about the sale of English papers been a thing that has gone on long before the Internet was available. I remember when I was a college Freshman that someone offered to sell me a term paper for my freshman English class. I was so shocked that people would do that. I never dreamed of handing in a paper that I had not written myself. I just politely declined the offer. I really did not need someone else's paper and it was hard for me to believe that anyone would buy one but it did happen.

Joan Grimes

Marni, fascinating. Plucking one inch of hair? Ouch!

Can you imagine kissing a face with Elizabethan makeup on it?

Don't forget the corsets. I remember reading a long time ago that the ideal waist size in Elizabeth's time was 14 inches.

I remember seeing Bette Davis play Queen Elizabeth. I loved the way BD walked in that movie. 14 inches??? Could the Ladies in Waiting have a larger waist???

Marni, thank you for the link.

All of Lee Smiths books are lovely and deeply southern. I reread Huck about five years ago and was amazed at how sad it was. I had remembered it as a comedy and it really wasnt. Amazing the misconceptions about books read as a teen and then as an adult. I really liked this Elizabeth with Helen Mirren.. She is the type of actress that brings out the character and does not make you feel that the actress is coming out instead.

Stephanie,

I will look for the Helen Mirren movie on Netflix. I am definitely in the mood for Lee Smith. A future goal, maybe this summer, is to reread Huck as a grownup.

Ok, it's not Masterpiece Theater....but tonight at 8CT, is the newest of Tom Selleck's TV movies based on Robert Parker's books. This one is called "Jesse Stone:Death in Paradise" There have been two others previously in this series, both excellent! I'm not a huge Selleck fan, but he is fabulous in this role.

Short Stories

I've been reading an article about short stories and was wondering how, if at all, short stories figure in your reading life? I' ready to read some Poe in prep of the Pearl book, but haven't done any short story reading in some time.

Do you enjoy short stories? Whose? why, or why not?

Hats, I seem to be following you everywhere this morning. Yes. Reread Huck Finn and maybe Tom Sawyer. I never read either of them until I took a children's literature class in college. Last night the posts about Huck got me Googling and turned up this article in American Heritage about Huck at 100. Fascinating article and a good time line.

Huck at 100

What surprised me was how quickly it was translated into other languages. And that reminded me of a State School Librarian conference held in Hannibal, MO many many years ago. The focus, naturally, was on Mark Twain and one of the highlights was a slide presentation of illustrations of his works -- world wide. Many countries had the characters in their own native dress.

Scootz, we were posting at the same time. Thanks for the tip about the Parker mystery. I'll be sure to tape that one. As for short stories -- they've never been my favorite type of reading, but good ones always seem to be memorable and to make an impression.

Pedln,

Hello again. Thank you for the link. I would love to hear all of your thoughts about children's literature. Reading children's lit as an adult, I feel sure is a different and wonderful experience.

Scootz,

I would like to say thank you too. I will definitely tape Tom Selleck tonight. He is one of my favorite actors along with Denzel Washington, Paul Newmab and and Sidney Poitier. For a woman actress, one of my favorites is Cicely Tyson. I wish she made more movies. I love Meryl Streep too. I also love Joanne Woodward. How did I get on this topic?

I am excited about September, Pearl and Poe. It is going to be wonderful. I feel it in my bones.

Funny, you would mention short stories. I am in the mood for short stories. Yesterday I picked up my books from the library. I checked out "Runaway" by Alice Munro. I think the Seniors read it awhile back. I missed the discussion. I am going to read the Archives. I have all these wonderful book plans. Now I need the life span to carry out all of these goals.

Have you read "Runaway" by Alice Munro? Did you like it?

Scootz,

Could you help us with The Name the Book Contest?? You know a lot of titles. We are desperate. Pleeese.

Pedln,

The article is very interesting. Thank you. I never thought of googling "Huck Finn." What a good idea. I knew "Huck Finn" had been censored because of the "n" word. When I read it, I was very young. So, the word didn't stand out to me, just the adventures on the river. This is why I want to reread the book as an adult. I don't have a clear picture of the relationship between Jim and Huck. I can hardly believe Mark Twain would write a book with racism in mind. If he were a racist, wouldn't MT have given Huck a white man for a companion? The question in my mind is why did MT choose Jim, a black man, as Huck's companion? Now my curiosity is really running on a high note.

I don't like to judge a book until I've read it with my adult mind in gear. I love books. This causes me to look at censorship as a last resort. Recently, I finished "Reading Lolita in Tehran." I have never seen Lolita or read the book. After reading "RLiT," I had such a different view of the book and the author.

As far as censorship, I think just about every book in the world as been put on the censor list for one reason or another. I wonder if half the people have read, analyzed and talked about the books that they so freely censor.

These are Louisa May Alcott's feelings about "Huck Finn" taken from the article in the link.

"Louisa May Alcott expressed the committee members’ views: “If Mr. Clemens cannot think of something better to tell our pure-minded lads and lasses he had best stop writing for them.”

We should have censored books to read at Seniors. Then, talk about why they are censored or why the book should not have been censored. Just an idea.

Ginny, did you read the Outside magazine article about that season on Everest, also? I know some of the key players directly or through others and so my opinion on the whole mess is different from the mass propaganda everyone so effectively delivered. It changed a lot of lives, too many forever.

<BLOCKQOUTE>"I saw this young gal yesterday on the Today show. The lines quoted by Katie Couric from the two books were startlingly alike- in one case almost word for word. The gal claimed she read the books by McCafferty and must have assimilated the info and unconsciously used it. O-k. I'm amazed that she thought she wouldn't be caught. Films rights have already been set, also. Amazing~"

Dan Brown got away with it in The DaVinci Code, and remember, he won at trial, even though the judges acknowledged he copied a number of lines from the other works. His are on about the same level as the plagiarizing Harvard sophomore's--and his fans and his publisher were not outraged at him. Be white and male and win is too easy to think when comparing the two of them, it's probably more a function of the millions relishing Brown's Catholic-bashing and wanting more. Just kidding, it's probably all about the money: easy to make more off Brown, but costly to try to make more off the shot-down sophomore.

I had never heard of shopping a story for an author--no wonder there's so much garbage out there. If you don't have anything to write, maybe you ought not be paid to write!

Loved Huck Finn for the solidarity I felt with the young man as a human being entrenched in his own solitude when I first read the book in 7th grade.

Elizabeth I also had tuberculosis. What a dreadful time. They used all sorts of things for their white faces, including lead, mercury and aluminum. The Queen probably used lead in her face paint. Blech. Even in her times folks knew there dangers to the practice and their are herbals listing supposedly safer mixtures for the white face. People were a lot smaller then due to poor health and malnutrition so a 14" waist on a 16th century woman would not as extraordinary as one on a 21st century woman, think 22" waist on the modern gal. Better?

Love, love, love short stories. Absolutely obsessed with them. Checkov, O Henry, Poe, Shirley Jackson, Daphne DaMurier, Victor Hugo, Arthur C. Clark, Harlan Ellison are some of the masters. I discovered them in about 6th grade and have treasured them all my life. I subscribed to Hitchcock and, oh, what is the Sci-Fi equivalent, begins with an 'a', for years just to devour short stories, also the magazine Omni when it was good. The most under-appreciated genre in literature.

I would love to read short stories on SeniorNet, some of the great horror short stories, war stories. People would not believe what Victor Huge has written in the way of short stories.

Kleo

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - President Bush, Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk, Chinese environmentalist Ma Jun, German Chancellor Angela Merkel, and hip hop renaissance man Sean "Puffy" Combs have made Time magazine's list of the year's 100 most influential people.

Interesting! Can anyone fill me in on why Pamuk is so influential?

hats and pedln- Hope you two enjoy the movie. let me know.

Hats- I already tried the contest and couldn't get it. I've gone through that list a few times- sorry. Can't come up with the answer. I think we need another clue- where's Ginny?

Kleo- I wondered if any short story collection had been done here. I'd love to do that. We could nominate a writer. Could be fun/interesting some time.

Reaching waaaaay back, I recall (dimly) a short story by De Maupassant called The Necklace. Hope I have that right. And in high school, I read one about a match- something about girls in a snowstorm, having/not having a match. Does that ring any bells with anyone?

I like short stories but rarely read them. I have bought that collection of Best American Short Stories (that comes out yearly) a few times, and also the one of Non -Required Reading which is fun. That's where I met David Sedaris, in that collection. They're great for trips. car rides, etc but I miss the character development that one gets from a more fleshed out novel. Still, I think that writing a short story- a good one- must be very difficult.

All the short stories by De Maupassant are eminently readable. "The Necklace" is well worth spending time on, not only for its holding one spellbound, but because it leads to later philosophical discussions.

Robby

Yes, another brilliant short story writer, Robby. "Boule de Suif" is worth its weight in gold or food or .... And, like most of De Maupassant's short stories it leads directly to what appear to be very transparent philosophical discussions. De Maupassant's issues are not as patently obvious as they seem to be when one starts discussing.

Fauklner, Hemmingway and Ray Bradbury are also superb. There are classic examples, too, Shirley's Jackson's "The Lottery" being everyone's nightmare favorite, or maybe your worst nightmare was realized by Jacobs' "The Monkey's Paw."

Oh, my, I feel a short story urge upon me. I wish, I wish, I wish I had a great book of short stories handy. No, no, wait, I don't wish that.... Or the longest jumping frog in a nearby county.

Kleo

Scootz-Pamuk is so influential because he is one of Europes top writers. He is outspoken and not cowed by the Turkish officials that wished to jail him for stating a well known fact: Turkey had killed one million Armenians and 300,000 Kurds in the past century. Charges were brought against him for anti-Turkish propaganda. Turkey was told by the EU that if they jailed Pamuk for his statement of facts, known to all, Turkey would never be allowed into the EU. Charges were dropped.

His books are not an easy read but well worth the effort you put into them.

Judy

Oh, Moliere!

Pamuk reminds me of Boris Pasternak, a man who could live inside his own loathsome regime. Very hard thing to do. Even if you are a literary giant.

Kleo

I wonder if any Philosophy professors ever give their students short stories to read, of if Philosophy is Philosophy and Literature is Literature and the two disciplines look askance at each other.

Robby

I think it was junior high where I first read The Lottery -- which I didn't fully understand at the time, but it's one short story that has stayed with me. We had a short story course here on SeniorNet, and wasn't that one of the stories we read, and also Stephen Crane's "The Open Boat? I often think of the latter, when nature wrecks her fury.

There's a good media series out -- I remember our English teachers requesting it, first in 16 mm, then video, and one would hope now DVD -- American Short Story series -- Ox Box Incident, Paul's Case and more.

One of my favorites is by Frank O'Conner -- Irish writer -- "The First Confession" -- about a terrified small boy who was visiting his priest for the first time, having been apprised by the older children of all the dire consequences of his visit -- he had to confess that he wanted to kill his grandmother.

All this talk of short stories has me wanting more. Now, in high school, we had these sort of anthologies of short stories- alos in college in American Lit. I had something similar with all these old classic short stories in them. Can you buy such a thing now? can anyone recommend one, if there is such a thing?

Cathie- who has never read The Lottery- and why does Paul's case sound so familiar?

Oh! The Monkey's Paw! remember that one? I hadn't thought of that one in ages, kleo.

I wish I knew what the one about the girls in the snowstorm was- it's bugging me now. Grrrr.

There is a Fairy Tale about The Little Match Girl, Scootz, which is about a poor girl who must sell matches to earn money. She stands in the cold and is so frozen that she lights the matches, one by one--and dies of exposure. Does this sound familiar? I think it was one of Hans Christian Andersen's tales. Sue

It was a Hans Christian Anderson tale. Some of his tales were dreadfully sad and often had me crying as a small girl.

Carolyn

Nope sorry, springcreekfarm- that's not the one. Would that it were. I can't remember much about it. These girls seemed to be housebound.

Oh, short stories -- I love them too, and haven't read any for ages. In addition to the great short story writers already mentioned, many brilliant novelists wrote great short stories. It's a good way to meet writers whose novels are long or difficult reading. Tolstoy, Thomas Mann, Henry James, all wrote great short stories or novellas. I would love to read some of those with you all.

And yes, Kleo, Mark Twain and his Jumping Frog. It's been 50 years since I read that story, and just thinking of it makes me laugh!!

HATS: I'll be really interested to see what you think of Huck Finn. People can't make up their minds whether it is racist or anti-slavery for what I think is a simple reason -- it is both!! The character Jim is really two characters. At the beginning and end of the book he is a simple-minded child who embodies all of the racist stereotypes of the day about Blacks -- as being simple minded children who need the protection of Whites to function.

But when they are on the river, Jim suddenly becomes a grown man with wife and children: when he realizes that he has missed his chance for freedom and will never see his family again, he becomes one of the great tragic figures of literature.

What happened here? In keeping with this contradiction, I have several contradictory theories. We know that it took forever for Twain to finish the book. He had gotten Jim down to New Orleans,wanted to end the book with him free, but didn't know how to do it. On the one hand, he may have turned him into a comic figure so that his being freed would not be threatening to his white readers. Many anti-slavery whites opposed slavery but were afraid of slaves (as seen in those "free" states that outlawed slavery but forbade ex-slaves to enter the state). So, Twain makes Jim the lovable simple child who can't move a step without a white telling him what to do. No one could be mad at him for being free, and more people would accept the book.

Another theory is that Twain actually WAS both racist and anti-slavery. I get this idea from my great-great grandfather, whose letters from the 1840s I have. He was passionately anti-slavery, ran a station on the underground railway, and bragged about his distant relationship to John Brown. But his remarks about individual Blacks that he met indicates that he subscribed to the same kind of racist stereotypes that Twain uses. "Huck Finn" may represent a confusion of ideas and beliefs that was commn at the time.

Hats, et al - what station is the Tom Selleck movie going to be on?

Can't Mark Twain have fairly represented the racist attitudes of his time without being a racist? If he portrayed all his characters as not being racists no one would have read the book, because it would have had a false tone to it. If he includes racists, he is one? Not fair.

A lot of men who were 19th century abolitionists and subscribed to the freedom of blacks as a race and individually held racist viewpoints. More power to great-great Grandfather, Joan, that he saw beyond the limits of his own thinking. A man raised to treat black men as equals and being an abolitionist during slavery is one thing, but a man raised as a racist who can support freedom for those he despises holds the type of ideals that Americans still aspire to build a great country upon.

I don't think an author has to be everything he writes. I have a friend who is an author and swears her next book will contain only 33 year old married virgin sweet-as-candy housewives and mothers so her readers will stop accusing her of being every ugly aspect of every character she creates.

Twain was a complex enough man to be many things outside of what his books represented.

Now, those jumping frogs. That and O Henry's "The Ransom of Red Chief" are two all time great stories.

I've never read a Thomas Mann short story. I'll get right on that one.

Kleo

Hats: That was an interesting Louisa May Alcott comment you provided. I was surprised.

I always think of Mark Twain as an abolitionist because of his neighborhood in Hartford, CT - Nook Farm. His brother was an abolitionist and so was his father-in-law. His next door neighbor at Nook Farms was Harriet Beecher Stowe and they were good friends. There were many abolitionists in Nook Farm.

http://www.cptv.org/nookfarm/pages/abolition-page1.html

Here's an article about how Twain's views on social justice were reshaped after he married into the Langdon family and spent time in Elmira:

http://www.stargazettenews.com/newsextra/marktwain/021504_1.html

Scootz and Hats: I saw the 2nd half of the Tom Selleck movie Jesse Stone tonight. It was really good. I'm sorry I missed the 1st half, but, of course, I had to watch The Sopranos!

I have not run away. I can't read all these posts fast enough. They are yummy posts too.

Scootz, I loved "The Necklace." Robby makes me want to read it again. In "The Namesake" by an author from India the son was named after a Russian author named Gogol. The boy's father loved the short story titled "The Overcoat." Ever since reading about the boy's name I have wanted to read that story.

I know how to pronounce "Gogol" because I listened to the book by audio. The story became so good by audio I decided to read the book. So, I stopped the tape. Now I need to get the book and finish the story. It is a wonderful story. The author also wrote a book of short stories titled "Interpreter of Maladies."

It's driving me nuts. What is her name? I will go to Amazon and look it up. I want to spell it correctly.

For today, I am going to be lost in all of these luscious posts. Plus, I have to put in my HOUSE vote.

Marni, I missed it!! I can't believe it my memory is as long as a six inch ruler.

Kleo, I am glad you are back. I could not find you.

The author's name is Jhumpa Lahiri.

Hats, I loved THE NAMESAKE. A book that actually made me cry. Fabulous writing. I had forgotten about "The Overcoat."

Marnie- glad you enjoyed the second half. Selleck's charcater in these movies is so likable and flawed. In the last one he insisted on putting his own dog to sleep- wouldn't have it any other way. Very sensitive guy. I need to check out the books by Parker.

Kleo said :I don't think an author has to be everything he writes.

I have encountered this with Trollope this past week. Was reading some reviews and saw a lot of criticism re anti-Semitism. Well, I just now hit those parts in the book - quite a ways in. I don't know enough about Trollope to comment except to say I'd agree with your comment and don't know if labelling the writer anti-Semitic is fair or not. Could be, I just don't know enough. Anyone?

I finished the article I was reading about short stories. It featured Katherine Anne Porter, John Cheever, and Raymond Carver, none of whom I've read, I'm embarrassed to say. I'll have to remedy that. The article recommends Best American Short Stories of the Century, as well as an Oxford volume. Better get reading to make some room on my tbr shelf!

Wow! I'm reveling in the wonderful conversations! Wow!!

On the Pick a Plot, hmmm another clue. Ok how about this:

While attempting to right a wrong, ironically the persons involved repeat the wrong, causing even more problems.

Now there's a clue? Hahaha That's about the best I can come up with and not give it away.

Scootz, after wandering like a cloud desolate thru three B&N stores, I finally found The Way We Live Now on a table of B&N classics, what a giant of a book, I've just started it, but I was enjoying it. What page are the anti Semitic remarks on?

I was shocked this morning to read Wikipedia calling Cicero Anti Semitic, so shocked that I had to go reread his own life in the OCCL to make myself feel better. Not sure about Wikipedia. I distrust any "encyclopedia" that lets anybody on earth edit it, I know, I know, some of you love it, but that's the last thing a short article on Cicero should be talking about and focusing on. It's a disservice.

I think, or at least I hope, that our civilization has come a long way, there's quite a bit of non PC in a LOT of famous writers, symptoms of their times? I think, didn't we, we hashed out the Twain thing in that last discussion of his, I seem to remember the conclusion was he was not a racist at all but used his pen to show what it looked like. I don't know, I've never liked Huck Finn.

I think I would like to read The Warden, too, it's slow and gracious and I'm glad to be finally reading a Trollop, thank you for the recommendation. BIG big book, tho!

I love the reviews you posted! Let us know how the movie is?

ARE we so different in our old age? Supposedly we are much wiser. I wonder hahahaa AT any rate the books I no longer like are those I read initially when I was older, I am not sure what that means, it may just be the "sometimes you feel like a nut, sometimes you don't" syndrome.

We're taking our first ever vote today in our series Books With House in the Title, come on down and vote and then help us discuss it, we've got a super slate there.

Results will be announced on Thursday in the morning, so you have three full days to Vote for One!

Mabel (Jean) thank you for the location of the copper beech tree and the Alice Paul homestead, how kind you are, will email you!

Hahah Hats, The Eagle and Friends, let's do write a book, they would not DARE to remove that EAGLE! Hahaaa

Phyll, it must have been that Vivian Beaumont, because there was nothing intimate about this thing, I think it may HAVE been a special production, a limited run, and you are right about that. It was definitely Lincoln Center which I had never been to before and we had no earthly idea there were so many theaters there. You could not HEAR a word the man said, you could hear Guinevere, tho. As we left for the elevators a man in front of me said something like aren't the people here fortunate to have experienced that? Well I would like to say yes, but I absolutely did not hear a word he said. Is there an acoustics problem in that theater? Our seats were in the nosebleed section and would scare a mountain climber, you could NOT get any higher, and when we looked straight ahead we looked dead straight AT (and if the truth must be said even down on a gigantic chandelier!

(I have witnesses! Hahahaa)

Pedln, wasn't that something on the plagiarism, there were several passages from different authors lifted and changed somewhat.

I don't know why people don't realize that all you have to do is type in a line and google will show you who said it first, especially since Amazon now allows books to be viewed. (I am not actually sure if google picks THOSE up, do any of you know?)

But as far as term papers, all you have to do is type in a line and you can see who wrote it first. Good discussion here!

My goodness, Jane, another one, and as you say, word for word. What do people think they are DOING?!?

Joan G, your mother is just precious, thank you for sharing her 99th birthday photos with us, I should look so good now!

Love all the mentions of new books here, The Kearns, the Three Junes, the Last Girls, Huck Finn, etc.

Thank you Stephanie, Babi, Deems, Marni, and Kleo for details on the subject of Elizabeth I's white face make up, and life, absolutely fascinating, and as Deems says they did not wash that much. I recall reading somewhere about Henry VIII and all those layers of clothes and the perfumes he used, whooo. I tell you what, between Marni's recipe there using vinegar and sulfur, they may have needed perfume! Thank you for the link, Marni!

Ooh and the singer of the Lady of Shallot is Scottish, I've ordered that CD, she's just out of this world, thank you for that. Haunting.

I am excited about reading Tennyson. We've all heard his name and sometime in our past we read SOMETHING by him, but when's the last time you've picked him up? We can fix that in November, I am so excited about that.

When's the last time you read Ivanhoe? That's another one I just absolutely LOVED as a child and am afraid to pick up now. Remember all those Knights in armor? If YOU were on a quiz show this afternoon and had to list everything YOU remember about Ivanhoe, what would it be?

I seem to remember somebody named something like Somebody de Bois Guilbert? Is that right? And knights in armor and a lady's handkerchief or scarf of favor. There is currently an absolute HOOT of a program on PBS where this guy with this Cockney accent goes around the country, have you seen it? …I never see it from the beginning but he travels around England I guess and in one sequence puts on a suit of armor and engages in a joust, it's the funniest thing I ever saw, just hilarious, what WE'D do if we had to put on a suit of armor, but it makes a point about Knights in Armor that you don't often think of: you can't SEE out of those visors, the armor is tremendously heavy and awkward, and if you're unhorsed you're dead because you can't run.

And talking about wasp waists of the Elizabethans and corsets, have you ever looked at a real suit of armor?

Now what is the sequence, it was the cross bow which put an end to the suits of armor, right? And the stirrup which changed...er....something forever? Like the invention of the wheel?

I love short stories, too, but I've never read Runaway. And Scootz and Robby, I remember The Necklace, too. Good point, and provocative, Robby on Philosophy vs Literature.

Yes, , we've done short stories here. In fact one year we did the Best American Short Stories annual book and the Discussion Leader, Charlie, wrote several of the authors and they all responded and came in, it was exciting. One of them, Nathan something, boy was he good. I like that sort of volume on occasion because then you can find more they've written, and it exposes you to writers you'd not have encountered otherwise, perhaps.

Maybe we need to do some more!!

Oh good for you, Pedln, remembering Roslyn's Literature Course and of course The Lottery, we've read Shirley Jackson here also.

Yes, Kleo I read all the Outside Magazine stuff; I've tried to read just about everything connected with the incident. I don't think Boukreev himself got involved in any mass propaganda. What's your take on the incident, since you know the key players? I would be interested to hear.

I saw yesterday that The DaVinci Code has sold more than a million copies! I wonder what the first editor who looked at Angels and Demons thought when he read the book? That he had a certifiable nut on his hands? I'm determined to get thru Angels and Demons but it gets more and more ridiculous as it goes on. I just removed a couple of plot twists from this post lest they "spoil" Angels and Demons for others, but I am sure that the reasons for these twists will be revealed. I hope that the reasons will be revealed.

Reading Brown for me is kind of like the Rolex watch in the movie Spartacus. I was doing some trivia research for one of the Latin classes and the 1960 movie Spartacus and found all kinds of trivia and bloopers. Spartacus is famous for (among other things) being the movie where some of the Roman soldiers wear watches and Antoninus wears a Rolex. Check out the IMDB on it, it's amazing: a truck runs behind a battle scene, etc., soldiers who are killed are seen rolling under the wall to get up and fight again, etc., etc. Hollywood. Good movie, tho. But it's the same feeling reading Angels and Demons, to me.

In an interview with Ron Howard and Tom Hanks who are doing the new DaVinci Code movie, one of them says that the physical description of Langdon, his tweed clothes, etc., IS a description of Brown physically. Langdon may be Brown's alter ego then, his fantasy action man.

Interesting. I am absolutely determined to get thru this book.

Great comments from everybody on Twain, and his background, etc., golly you all just dazzle.

I like coming here to ask questions because somebody ALWAYS knows, and I don't. For instance, what is "chick lit?" Is the Shopaholic series Chick Lit? I loved that. I am seeing a lot of similar bright pastel colors on large paperback book covers, and cartoons with what appear to be cheerful frothy titles, is THAT Chick Lit? Is it something aimed at teenagers? I don't want to ask in the bookstore?

Two things in the New York Times Book insert yesterday:

Adverbs by Daniel Handler (aka Lemony Snicket), is out, a book for adults, of which he has written three. Have any of you read any of them?

OH and my goodness. Thomas Hoving again in the news, this time with a big one: Wyeth on Helga. The ad says:

AT LAST! Andrew Wyeth on The famous Helga paintings. For the first time in hiw sown words—as told to Thomas Hoving.

And it says to reserve your copy of this historic, limited-edition monograph call 239 254-2602 and then there's a big thing about the Naples Museum of art in Florida.

I wonder how Hoving got Wyeth to talk? Tell you one thing, that's one long suffering wife Wyeth has, of course I have not read the monograph, but gee whiz!

And since Mother's Day is coming up, they're pushing Deborah Tannen's You're Wearing THAT? A book about mothers and daughters, have any of you read it? Supposedly it helps us hear what we really are saying. I don't have daughters, would you say offhand the bond between mother and daughter is stronger than that between a mother and son? If so, what's the difference?

Now THAT was a big long post! hahahaa

The May poetry discussion will highlight the poems of Gwendolyn Brooks, Pulitzer Prize winner and Poetry consultant to the Library of Congress.

---Poetry" 1 May 2006

I'm having a lot of "neck issues" lately. Need to get out my neck exercises and start watching my posture at the computer. Also, I am going to start using my Voice Recognition Program which I use when my RA flares up. If you see any funny wordings, or spellings, it will be because my Voice Program has misrecognized something I said. I try to catch all the faux pas, but I may miss some. Some can be quite amusing. I need to spend this week getting my neck in order. trying to keep my time here down to a dull roar but will try to keep up.

be patient if I don't answer any posts directed to me right away.

OH! Judy Thanks for the info re Pamuk!!

Don't worry about typos, Scootz, just hammer away, I can't type and then when I can WORD automatic spell check makes my every sentence in Latin a pitiful mess. Insists, for instance, in changing magno to mango. I have had a lot of fruit floating around and did not even realize it!

I do hope your neck feels better!

I just thought of a fabulous book on mothers and sons, and that's one written by Edna Ferber, remember her? She of Giant and Show Boat and Cimarron and So Big, that last one, to me, a masterpiece of the mother son relationship. I'd kill to discuss that one, so many books, so little time. She won the Pulitzer Prize for So Big.

Does anybody read Ferber any more?

What an intriguing title -- "You're Wearing That?" Who is saying that -- mother or daughter. Will definitely have to take a look at that.

My aunt loved to tell the story about a friend who was taking her granddaughter out for lunch. The granddaughter came dressed in a rather see-through blouse and no bra. Grandma immediately went upstairs and changed into likewise. Granddaughter got the point and changed her clothes.

Scootz, I'd like to hear more about your Voice Recognition program. Does it change spoken words into text? One of my predictions for the coming decades is that there will be something one can carry with him, like a palm or ipod, that will change voice into text, for those of us who always miss the punch line.

Oh Pedlin, the inner picture of a grandma in see through is way way funny. If you want short stories about southerners and women.. Alice Munroe and Bobby Ann Mason have written quite a lot. I have to be in a short story mood.. I have been staggering through the authors book who sued Dan Brown and it is really truly horridly written. It is nonfiction, but oh me.. not talented writers. Probably quite bright, but whew.. dont know if I will finish or not. I was checkaing back and I dont remember Elizabeth I having tb? I know I have read several biographies and there was a lot of speculation about her health and the reasons for never having had a baby, etc, but the TB is not mentioned. Of course I have not read any of the new stuff. I am sort of off biographies just now. Read one of the new ones on Lincoln that started that stupid.. he is gay and threw the book at the wall. What a load of nonsense.. I know..I know.. but that behavior on the authors part is simply stupid.

Scootz, I sit up and take notice every time you mention The Way We Live Now. I've seen the BBC production, loved it, got the book, it's waiting to be read. The subject matter is so right for our own time.

I loved that villian Melmotte, the one all the fuss is about. A completely unprincipled man. There's no question that he gets the anti-semitic treatment from the author. Nothing redeeming about the man, as there was, say, about Shylock.

From The Jew in the Literature of England, by Montagu Frank Moddar, we get this:

'In later years, Trollope is reported to have expressed regret for this description of the alien financier and his Jewish family, declaring it to be ill-tempered and over satirical. But, in the opinion of Hugh Walpole, TWWLN is one of the most remarkable of all English novels published between 1860 and 1890. It is a novel of London life, with the colossal figure of Melmotte as a kind of symbolic character - a dirty, bullying, greedy, ignorant charlatan, representing a familiar type of exploiter who dominated the scene in those days.'

What a hypocrite that Trollope. Talking that way about one man, when his country was exploiting the whole world in its imperial way.

And what about the nasty portrayal of the lady from Texas?

I'm still laughing about the picture Pedin described of the grandmother changing clothes and not wearing her bra!

Ginny: Good for you for loving Ivanhoe. I tried to read it last year when I was on a tear reading classics I had never read before. I simply could not get past the language in Ivanhoe. I only read a few pages and then put it aside. I was disappointed. Maybe I'll have to try again one day.

Regarding Trollope - English society was anti semitic and the high church of England followers very anti semetic. Even when I was a teenager these feelings were held by the older generation. I think Trollope was reflecting the feeling of the time in his writing.

Regarding Mark Twain- although today we may think Twains writing to be very paternalistic regarding the slaves I do think from what I have read of his work that he was sympathetic to the anti slavery cause. As children we loved the adventures of Huckleberry Finn and Tom Sawyer - delighting in the disrespect they showed to grown ups. Having adventures we could only dream of. I think kids today would still be able to identify with these two young rascals and it is a pity the books are not widely read by our grandchildrens peer group.

Carolyn

Ginny, When I think about it, I'll have to have another look the list and see if I can figure out the book. Something tells me that I'm still not going to be able to figure out.

I won't be watching the BBC of the Trollope till I finished the book, probably next week and I'll report in after I viewed it. The anti-Semitic remarks didn't come until the 500 pages in, unless I missed them earlier. You best not read my comments belong to Jonathan source not to get any spoilers.

I'm sorry that I missed the discussion on the short stories, and I'm not at all surprised that it was already done here. You folks are just too darn organized!

pedln,

Love the story about the grandmother. Have often thought of doing this (dressing like) with my son. But with my luck, he probably wouldn't even notice. Yes, this program does convert my speech into print, and my entire post has been done this way. The more you use it the better it works, like most things. If you're ever really interested in getting one, e-mail me and I'll be happy to share with you the product.

Jonathan, , (Ginny, pass this by!)

Melmotte is quite the despicable character! However, what really gets me is how everyone trusts him implicitly. They hand him over money, expect nothing in return, take every word that he says as gospel. I'm thoroughly amazed that they have already heard the gossip about him in Europe and in spite of all that they trust him.

The lady from Texas - well, how embarrassing is she? I can't say too much as I don't want to spoil it for Ginny but she she needed to learn they few lessons in gracefully backing down when someone obviously doesn't want you. Ye gads!

Thanks Carolyn for the info on Trollope and anti-Semitism in England, etc.

We have a son and a dgt. Circumstances make it hard to decide which one i'm closer to. When they were growing up, even into their teen-age years, Stephen and i had more heart-to-heart talks, he was more extraverted than his sister and he and i have much the same thinking on issues. JoEllyn blossomed in college and became more expressive. She also lives only 10 minutes from us and since i pick up our grandson from day care two days a week and our dgt and grandson have dinner w/ us on those days, we've gotten much closer. Our son has lived all over the country since graduating college - Gettysburg College, Pa, Davidson College in NC, St Marys College in northern CA, Bucknell Univ in Lewisburg Pa and now Montana State Univ, so it's hard to be as close to him. But he often still reveals more of himself to me than JoEllyn. Apples and oranges, hard to compare.......will look forward to reading those two books about mothers/dgts/sons......

Carolyn, just read The Lovers by Morris West, one of your countryman. It was enjoyable, not one of my best loved books, but fun to read... .

Just finished Key of Valor by Nora Robts, again, a fun book, not too heavy, it's the third of the trilogy.....i'm teaching Western Civ I now and have been reading some heavy stuff for that, so my on-the-side reading has to be light and fun......

Howard - i got Miracle at Philadelphia from the library, but haven't started it yet, will let you know what i think when i get into it....

Read all those short-stories in high school or college. It's funny I like them when i read them, especially if i had someone to discuss them with, but don't gravitate to them otherwise. Like someone else said, i like the more complex character development of a novel.....jean

But, Ginny, that's the point, if you disagree with what is said, change it at Wikipedia--and not anyone can change anything. What's so wrong with a group getting together and responsibly providing information for others? Is the translation of Pro Flacco wrong? Then let folks know the correct translation. But you didn't provide a correction even to us, only a blanket criticism of Wikipedia as a resource based on one remark about Cicero that you didn't bother to correct, here or there.

""Now let us take a look at the Jews and their mania for gold. You chose this site, [chief prosecutor] Laelius, and the crowd which frequents it, with an eye to this particular accusation, knowing very well that Jews with their large numbers and tendency to act as a clique are valuable supporters to have at any kind of public meeting."

To look at today's society and our own attitudes and try to judge a man of 2000 years ago and make him PC today isn't necessary.

There's a lot of garbage on the Internet. For all the criticisms against Wikipedia it's trying to change that by being a place without garbage--it's no better or worse than the professionally edited encyclopedias according to a survey done about them by Harvard.

The crossbow did not bring about the end to armor. It did something rather different, it made it so an anonymous peasant could kill a chivalrous knight of great repute on the battlefield. Too bad soldiers kept thinking war was about honor in battlefield tactics until WWI leading to the bloody slaughter in the trenches, and about honor in the war room until today.

The stirrup is considered by some to be as important in the spread of modern civilization as the wheel and the printing press, in fact, right between those two. One of my brothers is a bit of an expert on the stirrup, but I think he places it as having the most impact on warfare. I'll have to ask him about its place in civilization.

The stirrup, like the crossbow, brings the physics of forces into play in warfare, allowing a mounted horseman to put the force of the moving mount with rider into the delivery of his weapon. I did study this in physics many years ago, and I suspect this is one of the physics problems well-diagramed on-line.

The crossbow was considered a rather unrespectable weapon because of the advantage given the peasant (who could be rapidly trained) over the honorable knight in battle, due to the amount of force being delivered by the mechanism of the bow being great enough to penetrate full plate armor by later dates. At this time, though, gunpowder was also being used. I think the crossbow and armor had a kinda symbiosis, each got better in relation to its impact on the other over the last few hundred years of their use.

I don't know much about Trollope. He lived in a very anti-semitic time and place.

Kleo

I have to disagree that complexity requires length to develop.

Kleo

Kleo there are plenty of good biographies of Cicero out there, I'd recommend the Everitt, just out a couple of years ago.

I like St. Augustine's take on Cicero, and that's one reason why we have so many of his letters, over 800, and papers/ speeches extant, he's a good read, I recommend the Everitt.

Kleo, I'll take signed articles from an authoritative respected encyclopedia over Wikipedia any day. Anybody, whether they know anything or not can contribute to Wikipedia.

And now you have clowns who play with it, thinking they'll play a joke on their friends. Like the one who inserted information about John Siegenthaler, former Nashville Tennesean editor, linking him to -- never mind, it's been cleared up now, but for a while it played havoc with the man's reputation. I will not use it, not even as a last resort. Nor if I were still working, would I allow my students to use it as a source.

Ah, but that is just what the study went out to show, the signed and named authorities were NOT more reliably accurate than Wikipedia. Isn't your believing they are more reliable over your taking the signed and authorative study that shows they aren't more reliable than Wikipedia exactly what you're contending is the difficulty?

I was never allowed to use an encyclopedia as a resource in school, any encyclopedia, ever. The only way they were used was to start you on background material, primary authors, and key words for perusing the Readers' Guides and card catalogue. No information from an encyclopedia could be used in a research paper, under any circumstances.

Ginny, not interested right now in a biography of Cicero. Never even questioned whether he was an anti-Semite, but the article does quote from him, and it looks rather anti-Semitic to me. The question is, is Wikipedia wrong? If they are, then quote what is right. If they're not, then they're not.

Kleo

Ginny, I read Cimarron in March when my F2F book club was reading books from which Oscar winning movies had been made. A fascinating story, although somewhat outdated. I had read ShowBoat and So Big years ago and enjoyed all 3 of the Ferber novels I've read. Sue

Ginny, we did have some information about Mark Twain in the Puddnhead' Wilson discussion.

JoanK, I thought your post about Mark Twain was very interesting. I am going to read your post over again. I think it is true that there are two "Jims" in the book, "Huck Finn." Perhaps, along the river journey Jim examined himself and his state of being ending in his desire to want more independence.

Marni, thank you, thank you for the links. I haven't read the links yet. I will read each one after dinner tonight. You always include yummy information.

Kleo, I agree. Authors are people who choose to portray different characters for one reason or another. If an author writes about a racist, we can not conclude the author is a racist. If an author writes about poverty, we can not conclude he lived an impoverished childhood. Authors are artists, very creative, their minds travel all sorts of roads trying to experience life through the eyes of other people.

MaryZ, I am sorry. I didn't remember the program. I missed getting the channel. I hope it comes on again.

Ginny, isn't there a novel about Cicero written by Taylor Caldwell? I think it's titled "Pillar of Iron." I might have this information dead wrong. I didn't read the book. My sister read it.

Carolyn, thank you for the information about Anti semitism and England. All new information for me. Still, I understand, all Englishmen aren't antisemitc, right?

complexity

I have to disagree that complexity requires length to develop.

Kleo

Kleo

I think that what Jean and I meant (I'm speaking for Jean here but think I have it right) that complex character development isn't possible in a short story. Certainly, a short story can have complexity, but I don't think it can have complex character development. Not possible in so few pages- the same idea as in a movie- can't develop the characters in two hours like you can in 500 or so pages.

I hereby give up on the current Pick a Plot. Been through the list and can't find anything that fits. Maybe I didn't read the book? Hope so, or I'm gonna be peeved at myself.

I was absolutely talking about complex character development.

Kleo

I believe that both Jim and Huck were freed from their regular personas while on the raft. The isolation, the almost dreamlike flowing of the river, all barriers were down - it was mand vs. nature. Although I must admit that it has been several years since last I reac Huck Finn.

KLEO: "I don't think an author has to be everything he writes".

Thanks for that -- I tend to forget it.

GINNY: I think I know the program that's a "hoot" on PBS, but can't remember the name either. If it's the one I think. it's a father and son. The father stands there and reads a map while the son puts on armor, or some zany thing to simulate the battle they're talking about. In one, the son stood on a field, unarmed, while a dozen horsemen charged him. Son had a device strapped to his wrist to measure how much his pulse rate went up (answer: a lot)

If I was that guy, I'd get another father!!

Whatever Mark Twain’s personal feelings were, "Huckleberry Finn" is full of scathing comments on the racist attitudes of the times. His style being what it was, these are buried in broad humor, slapstick, and backhanded irony. One example of this was life-changing for me. Unfortunately, I can’t find my copy, so I may have all the details wrong, but it was something like this.

Jim and Huck are traveling down the Mississippi, Jim because he thinks he is going to be sold, and Huck to escape from his life, and especially his abusive father. At some point, Huck has a clear chance to turn Jim in to the authorities. He knows he should do this, but he is reluctant to betray his friend, and feels very guilty about it. Finally he decides to do the "right thing" and turn Jim in, and feels very virtuous about it, but when the time comes, he can’t actually make himself do it. He ends up concluding that, well, maybe he is going to Hell, but that’s the way it’s going to be.

I was absolutely stunned when I read this. It occurred to me for the first time (I’m guessing I was about 10) that what grownups told you was right, and what teachers told you was true, wasn’t necessarily so, and that you really had to figure out for yourself what was right, or true. So I think that in a way "Huck" is a subversive book, and I can’t help feeling that some teachers are reacting to this when they try to ban it.

Jim is the real hero of "Huckleberry Finn". More than any of the other adults, he almost always does the right thing. JoanK and I half disagree about Twain turning Jim into a comic figure at the end. I think that’s partly true, but also think Twain couldn’t resist putting in a lot of broad humor to play to his audience. In any case, in the midst of all this, Jim risks his freedom (or thinks he does) in order to get help for one of the boys who has been hurt.

And that's the beauty of the great authors, JoanK, they make you forget that they aren't everything they wrote. After all, how could a man create figures such as Mark Twain did and not be every darn one of them?

Kleo

Interesting discussion about Huck and Jim. I doubt teachers don't want to teach it because it's subversive though. I think that those who campaign against this book do so with no understanding of the way to read it. There's a lot of ignorance going around, and unfortunately some of these folks are on school boards.

maryal

Mark Twain seems to be a writer with much bitterness towards human nature, bitterness usually cloaked in humor. I felt this way about Huckleberry Finn. Twain certainly must have seen the dark side of humanity living in Missouri and along the Mississippi before the Civil War and serving in the Confederate Army briefly.

He also had many personal tragedies during his life. I read that Twain's younger sister died young and his brother died young. His father died of pneumonia when Twain was 12. Twain had a number of financial losses. One of his daughters contracted meningitis and died. Another daughter had epilepsy which eventually led to her death by drowning while she bathed. Another daughter had a nervous breakdown. Twain's wife had emotional problems. (No wonder!) Twain himself had bouts of depression.

I remember reading in school his short story "The Man That Corrupted Hadleyburg," a story he wrote later in life, and being shocked at the bitterness.

Ginny, I tried rereading Ivanhoe about 10 years ago. I had loved it as a teen, but rereading made me understand the underlying prejudice involved. It was actually a very very sad book and the movie as well. I have an inherited complete set of Mark Twain, red leather, etc. Amazing how many things he has written that noone mentions.

Hi Marni,

Both articles are very interesting. I had never heard of Nook Farm. After reading both articles I wouldn't mind reading Mark Twain's biography. He had a great interest in Black Americans and Chinese Americans. If people don't understand satire, there is a chance of giving wrong values to authors.

Is "Alice in Wonderland" a satire?

I don't think Twain was bitter, as he never removed himself from those humans committing the foibles he laughed at. I think he saw deeply, though. And people who are at the extremes of the bell curve in some areas tend to be at the extremes in many areas.

Kleo

Golly what a great in depth discussion on Mark Twain, EVERYBODY, such interesting tidbits. I'd love to read Huck Finn in the company of you all and our stellar Twins, Joan K and Pat H, I have a feeling I'd come away with a new understanding. Sort of like the class I took on Faulkner last year, had it not been for the professor I am sure I would have gotten absolutely nothing out of it: what a mess. I know Professor Deems disagrees, being somewhat of a Faulkner expert.

Speaking of Professor Deems, she said something here that I think applies to the Cicero business,

I think that those who campaign against this… do so with no understanding of the way to read it. There's a lot of ignorance going around…

Yes there is, well said. Even tho you were talking about a different book the same thing applies.

Right on Pedln, I agree totally.

Sue, I have never read Cimarron. What made your face to face group think of it instead of one of her others? I am half afraid to pick up So Big again, even tho it won a Pulitzer, in case it has not held up, so many don't.

Let's add yet another clue to the Pick a Plot: The book was recently made into a blockbuster movie but it sure didn't follow the "plot!"

How about THAT one? Two of you in here READ it with us, and I have a feeling the clues are so vague you don't recognize it! Hahaha See heading!

Pedln the You're Wearing THAT? is apparently the mother to the daughter. LOVED just LOVED that story, just fabulous!!!!!!!!!

Hahahaha

Stephanie, you threw the book against the wall? Hahaah I do that!! At our next Books gathering we need to have a Book Throw Contest, I'm getting good at it. We could get up a list of our Personal Most Disgusting Books to Throw Against the Wall! Hahaha

I have thrown away TWO books in our entire career here on SeniorNet, out of the hundreds and hundreds we've read, threw them directly into the trash and enjoyed it. One was The Liar's Club which I absolutely despised, just hated every word and minute of it, but ironically, that was one of our better discussions. Mary Karr came back, not to be defeated, with her next book Cherry, which means exactly what you might think and continued her self revealing narcissism, just cannot abide that woman. 'Tude, Personified, a liar and proud OF it. UGGGGG

The other was the Drabble about Cumae. It disgusted me, now I'm going to read it again, and see if I still feel that way. SHE was not disgusting like Karr, the book was. Going to give it another try. Also am reading Everitt's Cicero again, super book.

Thank you also, Scootz about the stuff found on Trollope's page 500 or so, I'm enjoying my read in Trollope, I'll just wait till I get there, looks like Jonathan is reading too, it's a menage a trois, huh? Hahaha A Small Trollope revolution Scootz has started! Interesting point, Jonathan, about the Imperialism of the British Empire!!

Marni, what was it about the language of Ivanhoe that daunted you? (I just ran and read the first page, never mind. Ahahaha) Gotcha! Richard I, tho, that's a long time ago.

Stephanie, I somehow remember getting INTO it, really getting INTO it, was there a Rowena too? I don't remember too many details, was it about the Crusades, by any chance? You speak of prejudice? They really had to jack up those going on the Crusades, as we learned when Eloise led a fantastic book discussion of Les Peregrines not so long ago, just to keep them GOING, most of them did not return. Just to go, just to set out against the despised infidel, the demonization of the enemy, was an act of piety. But I remember it with the greatest fondness, READING it, especially now, is something ELSE! Of course we're a long way removed from the Crusade mentality now.

Speaking of Richard I, I really would like to read something of Shakespeare's early plays here before the giant celebration of him is over, maybe a lesser known History or something.

Jean, lovely thoughtful points on sons and daughters, apples and oranges, loved that, thank you.

Hats, I don't know about Taylor Caldwell and Cicero, Isn't Colleen McCullough doing a series? Again not sure. I just found out thanks to Scootz and her mention of Trollope that HE also wrote one on Cicero and also on Caesar. I am quite interested to see if I can get my hands on either, or course his own information might be dated, but still it might be interesting.

Joan K, is it a FATHER and son!?! For some reason all we see here is a brief clip sometimes extenuated, but a brief clip nonetheless, of him leering (somewhat like that guy did on PBS who went to all the Mythological places) at the screen and the next thing you know he's on a horse in armor it's just hilarious. I think we must be seeing snippets of the real thing but they never think to say when we can see the whole?!? It's apparently a series, does he go OUT of England?

It really calls to mind, for me, with the overvoice, Monty Python's Holy Grail where the guy is talking and the other guy comes by and lops off his head.

(Did you all happen to be watching Fox News Sunday? Suddenly across the ticker tape ran an obscene sort of coded notice, I nearly fell off my chair? It was a black band with gold on it and spelled something quite unmistakable. Somebody during a live broadcast had coded that in, it looked originally like a Japanese stock market thing but as you puzzled it out suddenly, just like Chuckles Longdon in the Da Vinci thing, it came clear. I stood gap mouthed and they yanked it off). Not sure if that made the news, or not.

Hats, I regret to say I don't know much about Alice in Wonderland. Pearson does but she's on holiday, maybe somebody else here does, I loved the book. So many great old books to read. He was at Oxford so there's a neato store still there where the little girl he wrote Alice for and he used to go, and it's full of Alice Memorabilia, right across from Christ Church college. Neat little store.

Another author you really don't hear anybody reading is Sinclair Lewis. I reread his Babbitt again not too long ago and found it very much more than I had originally thought. And I read Dodsworth which was new to me, and the SEQUEL which I had never heard of. Perhaps the language is a tad dated, "swell" and all but still they are powerful. Sort of a Mahmet like experience. When I was younger I thought Arrowsmith was the novel to be all and end all, do any of you remember it? I am afraid to reread it now, I just loved it.

Maybe we should each choose an author we have never read but always meant to and report on what we thought!

How about Ibsen? Have you all read all of Ibsen?

I saw as I think I mentioned some time ago, Patrick Stewart in Ibsen's The Master Builder and was just stunned. That was not at ALL how I remembered that play and went back and by golly the play was right on!

Kind of like the Wyeth Helga theme (and thank you, H, for that background information on THAT one, come on in and talk to us, you know a lot more than I do!) hahahaa

How about Thornton Wilder? Don't you all remember doing Our Town? I used to think that was the stupidest thing I ever read, I don't now. I now see the brilliance of it, that may be, Scootz, that thing about changing, not sure. That stuff about looking thru a glass darkly (I can't WAIT to get to Tennyson!! JUST the thing for summer, little tiny poem, rhymes in a sing song, about (another one) Knights in Armor and Camelot, how DEEP can it be? What relevance can it possibly have for 2006? OOOO boy!! Can't WAIT!)

What are YOU reading??

Ginny,

I haven't read the book. I have read other Caldwell books. My sister who is long gone did read this one.

Taylor Caldwell

Thinking about Sinclair Lewis reminds me of Main Street. That's the one I really remember. That was so good and so sad, I thought. I'm just reading Truman by McCullough and the picture of Independence, Missouri, reminded me of Main Street.

Thank you, Hats! You were absolutely right, I wonder how MANY books have been written about him.

And my goodness, yet another take, and this one from a distinguished author: Cicero as "a de facto convert to pre-Christian Messianic Judaism."

My goodness, "so much depends" as william carlos williams wrote, "upon. a red wheel barrow. glazed with rain water. beside the white chickens."

The lovely thing about Classics is that daily we find out something that makes our previous understandings, and some of them of very long standing, incorrect. Every museum in the world is studded with little signs and audio tapes saying "it was previously thought that…but now we know…" and some of it quite important.

It's a very exciting field, Cicero's life has as many takes on it, apparently, as the DaVinci Code.

Did Taylor Caldwell write Dear and Glorious Physician? I am not sure why I am making that connection, I have heard it's a super book.

MAIN STREET! Yes!! I am trying to remember if I ever read that. I never think of that title that I don't think of Disney World for some reason. Walt Disney so loved that concept that it's in his Disney Worlds and he would often go and STAY on the one in Anaheim, did you all know that?

Wanted to return to the America of yesteryear.

THAT one might make a super discussion, Lewis wrote a ton of great books, thank you for that, Marni.

Re: Mark Twain

One of the absolutely most heart-rending things I've ever read is Mark Twain's essay on the death of his daughter Jean who died on Christmas Eve. He had suffered so many losses and this one was especially sad for him. He couldn't make himself go to the funeral but stayed home and wrote this essay. I could hardly finish reading it for the tears in my eyes. I believe he died himself within 4 or 5 months after. His wonderful house once so full of life was too big and empty.

I've always wanted to visit the Twain house but now I think that essay would keep popping into my head.

Firstly- I LOVE Taylor Caldwell!

Secondly Mark Twain - He FELT deeply and that is why his books are so great.

Carolyn

Guess for PicK a Plot-

Lord of the Rings?

I know, I said I gave up- I lied!

Subject: THIS is the way it should be...... AIN'T THIS THE TRUTH................

The most unfair thing about life is the way it ends.
I mean, life is tough. It takes up a lot of your time.
What do you get in the end of it?
A death. What's that, a bonus?

I think the life cycle is all backwards.

You should die first, you know, start out dead, get it out of the way.
You wake up in an old age home, feeling better every day.
You get kicked out for being too healthy, go collect your pension,
then when you start work, you get a gold watch on your first day.
You work 40 years until you're young enough to enjoy your retirement.
You drink alcohol, you party, you're generally promiscuous
(hey, you've only got a few years left, what's the big deal?!?)
and you get ready for High School.
Then you go to primary school, you become a kid, you play,
you have no responsibilities and finally you become a baby;
The last step you spend your last 9 months floating peacefully with luxuries like central heating,
spa, room service on tap, larger quarters everyday and then...

You finish off as an orgasm!

Wow Marjorie, now that was sassy, as Anna says! LOL

Reminds me of the fabulous book, THE CONFESSIONS OF MAX TIVOLI, who ages backwards. Loved it!

Except for the aches and pains, I like being older. No more worrying about all that silliness you thought was so important when you were young. I think that as you get older, the really important things are what matter to you.

Cathie, waxing philosophical

I found that book a couple years ago in a box of books that had come from my Mother's house. I was stunned at how contemporary the theme was - how feminist Lewis was in his thinking about this woman who had the "ideal" life and was bored to tears. Who am I? What is my life about? ...... i loved it.

re: Wyeth - Phila Museum of Art is doing a special exhibit on him at the moment.....jean

Ginny, I was the only one to read Cimarron and the only thing by Ferber, although ShowBoat was also an Oscar winner. BTW, did you know that there have been 2 movie versions of Cimarron? The 1931 won for Best Picture (first Western to do so) and Best Screen Play. The leads were Irene Dunn and Richard Dix. The 1960 remake with Glenn Ford, Anne Baxter, and Maria Schell did not win an Oscar, but is a highly rated Western.

When this book club started at the library, the members tried to read the same book and discuss it at the meeting, but had difficulty finding enough copies to do this. Now we've agreed to read on a theme and discuss the different books we've read during the month on that theme. Our theme in March was "Books which were adapted for screen and which won Oscars". Our theme for May is Cons and Scams--fiction or non-fiction. I'll be interested to see what the others have read. I've chosen 3 fiction books--2 of these are mysteries. Sue

Years ago, I enjoyed reading everything I could find by Sinclair Lewis: Arrowsmith was a favorite, but also Main Street. I'm sure if I re-read them now I'd see completely new features. But have they aged well? Is anyone suggesting one of the Sinclair Lewis novels for any book group?

Ginny, on Cicero ~
Did you say Colleen McCullough was writing a new book? on Cicero? I have seen nothing about it.
I just went to check in Amazon, it's not yet published, if it even exists.
In her Rome and Caesar history series, Cicero has a suitably large role in his times. I think I recall the entire set runs about 6000 pages. So it's a lot to read, unless the reader loves the period, which I do. I've read most of the volumes more than once.
And the more I read in other historical material, the more I find that the events that McCullough describes are true to the other non-fictional, historical accounts.

"Ol' man river, that ol' man river, He must know sumpin', but don't say nothin', He jus' keeps rollin', He keeps on rollin' along..."....

I can just hear Paul Robeson now!

Mippy, no, I said she was doing a "series," not on Cicero, (but it was in a conversation about Taylor Caldwell on Cicero, now answered by Hats), it's Everitt who is writing a new book and it turns out it's NOT on Caesar, it's on Augustus, no wonder it's taking him so long. Yes I have several of the McCullough series myself, First Man in Rome, etc. For some reason I find them hard to get into. I don't know why!

What DID you all think of the Tom Selleck movie? I forgot to ask.

Carolyn, it's been a long time since I read Taylor Caldwell but I do remember her as super. I liked A Man Called Peter, too, have you all read that? Wonderful book.

I did not know that Joan R, about Mark Twain. That is SO sad. Poor man.

Hahahah Scootz, Lord of the Rings is not in the Archives here. (I knew you could not RESIST!) ahahahah

Marjorie, what a HOOT, do it all backwards, now what would be the drawbacks of that, if any? Love it!! What would happen to all this "wisdom and knowledge, " that some of YOU possess? It's bypassed me for some reason.

What is THE CONFESSIONS OF MAX TIVOLI, Cathie? I never heard of it?

Jean, Main Street as contemporary? It sounds like something we might need to revisit, I can't remember it, she...wanted to get OUT of the little one horse town or what she thought was a one horse town?

SUE!! That is absolutely inspired!

Now we've agreed to read on a theme and discuss the different books we've read during the month on that theme. Our theme in March was "Books which were adapted for screen and which won Oscars". Our theme for May is Cons and Scams--fiction or non-fiction.

What a clever way to handle a face to face bookclub! I love that! We are always looking for new themes here, I wonder if it would work online? We could choose from a list or something (or you all just pick one or two I see you have THREE for the next session?) LOVE that, aren't you clever!?

So now you saw the movie so what did you say for your segment? (I'm really fascinated by this topic).

Mippy a good question on Arrowsmith, especially given the subject, I'd like to know, also, if they've aged well, Jean says Main Street has. He uses slang of the times which dates the speech, but I'm not sure it has a dated effect on the whole. We may want to read one and see? How better.

I really love that thing Sue is doing.

Marni? hahahaha er? hhahahaah Now what has caused you to break out in song? hahahaha Is this your way of saying you'd like to read Show Boat? hahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa yes boy could HE sing, I can hear him, too, and he has a story all his own too, I wonder if there is a biography of Paul Robeson, he had a fascinating life.

Ginny said:

Hahahah Scootz, Lord of the Rings is not in the Archives here. (I knew you could not RESIST!) ahahahah

It's not?? Coulda sworn I saw it there. Hmmmm...

What is THE CONFESSIONS OF MAX TIVOLI, Cathie? I never heard of it?

I did this book with my f2f group. I just loved it, thought it was so cleverly done. Went right back and reread it to see "how" he did it- kinda like seeing Sixth Sense over to see how it was done. here's a link to it- great discussion book!

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/BookSearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0312423810&itm=1

I really disliked MAIN STREET- intensely!

Ginny I read "A man called Peter " when I was about 8. It was one of the books in my grandparents library. In fact over my childhood and young adulthood I read it many times. I also read many times "A town like Alice" by Nevil Shute and also a book author forgotten called "Elephant Bill". It was stories about elephants during British Colonial rule in Burma. It was written by the man in charge of the working elephants in the teak forests. I loved that book and rejoiced and cried sometimes as the stories of individual elephants unfolded.

Carolyn

Oh Ginny! What be's this???

Timo1, "Lord of the Rings ~ J.R.R. Tolkien ~ 9/01 ~ Science Fiction/Fantasy" #12, 5 Oct 2001 9:29 pm

Whoop!!! Well Miss Scootz, I tell you what, you are RIGHT!

hahaaa Right on!

Holy smoke, I don't remember that one at ALL, but then again, what's new?

OK, you win! And you deserve to know the answer for all that work (Maybe we should do a Treasure Hunt in the Archives, I know one person who didn't know that was there, wow!!)

hahaha

love it.

Ok the answer to the current Pick a Plot contest is Homer's Iliad!!!!! And NOWWWWWWWWWWWW (drum roll, please) if you like, Scootz, as the WinnAH, you can also Pick a Plot from the Archives and stump the panel here!

If you don't like, anybody can chime in with one and we'll put it up in the heading.

Who KNEW? I'm going back and see what that WAS~! hahahaa Love it!

Carolyn, that sounds super on the elephants, do you remember the movie Elephant Walk? For some reason I just was obsessed with that movie, I think it was Elizabeth Taylor, too! This evil (was he?) planter built his plantation (was it Burma or Africa) right in the middle of the Elephant Trail and naturally they wanted to walk on it. I wonder if it's a book?

I'd like to read A Man Called Peter again, I remember loving it.

I'm going to have to look up Max Tivoli, never heard of it! So many good books mentioned here and novel approaches to discussing them!!

GINNY, I had to stop at this: "it was previously thought that…but now we know…"

I have come to think that applies to almost any and every field of human knowledge. Our knowledge and understanding is never complete, and it is perhaps foolish to take any absolute stand on the accuracy of anything. With the possible exception of arithmetic.

Babi

What about algebra where one can say that 1=2 or a=b.

Robby

I was listening to a doco this morning which pointed out that many of the greatest minds in history had never been educated beyond 13yrs of age. Isaac Newton was mentioned. Then I heard some of our other great inventors to do with the Industrial revolution never were educated past 11yrs and 12yrs old. Does imagination and innovation go out of the window if we are too educated? I think of some of our greatest entrepeneurs. They never went to college!

I've not seen either of the Cimarron films, Ginny. The 1960 version was on Turner Classic Movies during the Month of March (actually all the movies shown in March on TCM were previous Oscar winners--in different categories). I just missed it as my newspaper doesn't have TCM in its TV listings. I have to check the schedules online.

I can't remember what specifically I said about Cimarron, but I read a few passages that I thought were significant about different characters and their development, also a bit about the plot. It was about a family who left Kansas to go to the Oklahoma frontier during the "Sooner" days. Very different life style and the heroine changed from a much protected Southern Belle to an independent newspaper editor because of her husband's frequent absences. And she had a fear and distrust of Native Americans--so, of course, her much loved son married a chief's daughter!

Most of the other members told a bit about the plot, why they chose to read the book and some information about characters. If they'd seen the movie, they did some comparing. The 3 young women in our group did choose books where they'd seen the film. One, a new member, from Oklahoma had never read The Diary of Anne Frank which is on almost every HS reading list here in Alabama, so that is what she chose and loved it. Sue

OK, not sure how I got the win, but here goes-

This book was (for me) a nicer version of HEART OF DARKNESS.

One of the best short stories I ever read -- if not the best -- is The Yellow Wallpaper by Charlotte Perkins Gilman.

Mal

Cimarron is a great read. Another great read about Oklahoma is one of my most well-read books, True Grit by Charles Portis, also, of course, a book that starts out there and journeys to my current location, Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath, from rural Eastern Oklahoma to the Great Central Valley--I used a station wagon, not a truck, though.

I lived in Choctaw Nation for a while. The land is amazing, the mountains run east-west, a fascination for me. In fall the leaves change and you drive through town after town that could be just the one with a Main Street Sinclair Lewis wrote about, maybe the lower classes aren't the Swedes in SE Oklahoma, but the towns are small town middle America.

My Authors of the Lost Generation book club read and discussed Main Street just over a year ago, still relevant, one of our favorite reads.

I loved Arrowsmith and Babbitt, one of them more than the other, but love Sinclair Lewis in general. He's one of my lifetime authors. Well worth a reread. I did not read him when real young, in my late 20s probably.

I still love Twain's The Innocents Abroad above all else, well not all else, but it's one I go back to all the time. When I was younger he was my favorite author for a good 20 years. My siblings did not care for him as much, now they all devour his books. I found 5 sitting on my mom's reading-now-or-just-read shelves the other day.

Mal, thanks for the link. I've read it but don't remember it, it'll be perfect reading tonight, along with Wouk's The Caine Mutiny.

Kleo

I've been on a Twain bender for several years. The Diaries of Adam and Eve are hilarious. I treasured Connecticutt Yankee, a Christmas gift - my grandmother had enrolled me in a children's classics book club, but she cancelled it when sh saw the picture of Gulliver urinating. Too shoking for a child to see.

I am a lifetime Sinclair Lewis fan and have not reread him for years. All of this talk makes me want to go dig out what I might still have or get some new stuff. I wonder.. will I read it and vibrate..Yes,yes,yes.. I know I did in my 20's. Ivanhoe was mildly antisemetic.but at that period it was not unusual. Some of the crusades are fascinating, others make you wonder what the heck was happening. This was when well born englishmen and women went to the holy land and walked around and went" OH LOOK, THAT IS WHERE THE SAVIOR WAS BORN' or"I AM SURE THIS IS THE SPOT OF THE TOMB".. Now all these years later, people still believe it..

And, she, IMHO, is a very good author. Entitled, "The Art of Mending" by Elisebeth Berg. Layers of layers of one family's remembrance of yesteryear and what really happened back then. We all bring our own perspective to most memoirs of our family's doings back then. I couldn't put it down.

If you haven't read "Snow Flower and the Secret Fan", don't miss it. Delicious book! Again, many layers of a family's remembrances, especially Snow Flower.

Plot spoiler:

"Ivanhoe" is somewhat antisemitic, but the Jewish characters are treated sympathetically. Although Ivanhoe loves the fair Saxon maid Rowena, Scott hints at the end that the Jewish maid Rebecca would have been a more interesting and desirable wife.

I tried to read Ivanhoe a number of times as a teenager and could never get very far, but enjoyed it as an adult. I recently impressed someone by remembering a linguistic point from Chapter 1. I remembered it because I had read it 5 times!

Ann, one of my f2f book clubs is considering Snow Flower and the Secret Fan for our June selecton. I'm glad to hear that you liked it. I've written Elisabeth Berg's The Art of Mending to my want to read list. Thanks for the suggestion. Sue

Oooh I love those books like "The making of an American Quilt" and others. I am sure I will adore "The Art of Mending!" I am always fascinated by the lives of ordinary people and also how people interact. I shall have to look and see if our library have this book!

carolyn

Mark Twain was not only a great writer but a great man. His many personal tragedies did not destroy him but gave him greater compassion and deeper understanding of others. Here is what he wrote onthe death of his daughter Susy: age 24.

A mans house burns down. The smoking wreckage represents only a ruined home that was dear through years of use and pleasant associations. By and by , as the days and weeks go by, he misses first this, then that, then the other thing. And when he casts about for it he finds that it was in THAT house. Always it is an essential-there was but one of its kind. It cannot be replaced. It was in that house. It is irrevocably lost... It will be years before the tale of lost essentials is complete, and not till then can can he truly know the magnitude of his disaster.

Mark Twain is translated into almost every known language. The world reads him and respects his words. How bizzarre that a few silly school boards would try to ban his books in his native land. They must be terrified of his truths.

Judy

Hi Mal,

It's good to read a post from you.

Hi Carolyn and Judy Shernock,

Carolyn, you are going to want all of Elizabeth Berg's books. I love "Never Change" too. I loved "The Art of Mending" too.

"Ellen Foster" by Kaye Gibbons is good too. Kaye Gibbons suffers with mental illness. She is a good author too.

Where they read a play! Different and chilling describes whole play. Can't remember the title but its Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.'s first play, written in 1968. An interesting experience! I mentioned Elizabeth Berg and no one had read her. I loaned the library book to another friend. I hope she likes this new2me author. Kiwi, I will look for more of her books. So glad to hear she is known. Have you read the one that I mentioned here? Layers and layers of family perceptions.

My sister, Mary and I viewed a good family movie for adults entitled, "The Family Stone". Layers and layers!! Didn't particularly like the chosen actors for some of the characters, but the story line was good. Anyone else seen it?

Hi Ann,

I thought about your post this morning after writing Carolyn a post. I remember you mentioned Elizabeth Berg first. I do love her too.

I l iked Elizabeth Berg and the Mending book. Have gotten another of hers to try. I am wrestling with a Lisa Scottoline just now. I generally like her, but this one is not about the law offices, but a government prosecuter..Slow going so far.

Happy Birthday, Wanda June?

Kleo

I always pick up USA Today on Thursdays if I happen to be out and about and can do so. They have a book sections on Thursdays and today's edition had some items of reading interest.There's a brand new unabridged audio version of Hemingway's THE OLD MAN AND THE SEA read by Donald Sutherland. Might make a nice Mother's Day gift for me- or you!

Jacquelyn Mitchard has a new one out called CAGE OF STARS. Anyone remember her Oprah Pick from years ago- THE DEEP END OF THE OCEAN? This new one gets a pretty good review.

For word lovers -and what reader isn't??- the National Spelling Bee finals will be on Prime Time tv this year. A few years ago, a local kid was in the finals and I watched it on ESPN, but since the interest with the Bee and films*, etc it'll be on tv at night. If you think it sounds boring to watch- think again! I loved watching it.

* has anyone seen Akheela and the Bee yet?

Hi Scootz,

I did read "Deep End of the Ocean" by Jacquelyn Mitchard. When Oprah picked it, I read it. I didn't know about "Cage of Stars." Thanks for mentioning it. I am dying to see "Akheela and the Bee." Shirley Bassett appeared on Martha Stewart's show. Martha Stewart showed a part of the movie. It looks sooo good.

There is another one by Jacquelyn Mitchard too. It's called "Breakdown Lane." Have you read it? I haven't read it yet. There are so many good titles.

Hats, I didn't read her second one. Was that BREAKDOWN LANE? I did read the Oprah one and liked it a lot.

PS- I like to watch Martha Stewart, too.

I really must get over to the cooking board!!

By the way all-

No guesses on my new Pick a Plot?

Scootz,

Yes, it's called "Breakdown Lane." I don't know whether it's her second book. It's one of her books. It's pretty new. I loved the Oprah pick.

I just finished "Oh My Stars" by Lorna Landvik. That's a really good book.

Well, I will go out into the wild blue yonder. Here is a guess.

"Cry, The Beloved Country" by Alan Paton

Nope, sorry Hats.

Some of Landvik's books are good and some have really been awful, imho. Have you ever read ANGRY HOUSEWIVES EATING BONBONS? My f2f group did it a few years ago and I loved the book because of all the old titles of books in it that I had read through the ages- (Ms. Dinosaur, here that's me!) We all liked that one and so we later tried another of hers that we all just hated. Funny, huh?

I have "Angry Housewives..." I haven't read it yet. I am glad to hear you liked it. I did read "Welcome to the Great Mysterious" and "Patty's House of Curl" by Lorna Landvik.

Scootz,

Is your "Pick a Plot" from the Archives too?

Scootz,

I know it! I know it! I know it! "Poisonwood Bible" by Barbara Kingsolver.

Hats, I loved Patty Jane's House of Curl. That was a good 'un.

Ooooh, I feel so awful- no, I'm sorry hats, that's not right either.

And yes, it's in the archives- fiction.

Forgive my ignorance, but what is F2F? Sue has mentioned it, too, I think.

F2F means face to face, in other words a book group where you meet in person. I'm sorry- I guess I assumed everyone knew that.

Thanks, Scootz - not a problem. I guess everybody else knew about it. That's a new one to me.

I have a question for whoever can answer it. The House group starts mid-May , TEACHER MAN is in June. Will there be another Around the World group soon? I can't figure out how the planning of these groups goes. Can anyone help?

F2F means face-to-face, such as, real live folks discussing a shared book of the week or the month and not sitting at their computers but sitting face-to-face in a local library, a local coffee shop or someone's home. Some F2F's even dress up once a year as characters of one of their books, meet in an assigned place and try to guess what book that each of them is protraying. I even know a nice group of women who take a weekend away to just talk books and have a good time. Not only that, the chief honcho each year sends them a map on how to arrive at their getaway with lots of subtle hints in the directions. I have a friend who drove 50 miles out of her way, saw a Buddhist temple out in the boonies, and finally arrived too late for dinner. What creativety!!!

Hats

I went into our library page and found 69 titles of Elisabeth Berg's works. What I like is that the library lists other places to find similar titles in the non-fiction. While reading these other non-fiction categories, you can get an idea on what the book is centered on.

Dashing thru the snow here, Teacher Man is July and House is (it's the Willa Cather!@! Everybody run get one, it's short and looks super and meet us on the porch, with lemonade, Proposed going up.

The Willa Cather The Professor's House begins May 15 and runs thru June 15 and Teacher Man begins July 1!!

more more more in a bit...........

I love your swing as I own one just like it. And, every spring when the March winds kick up, it gets blown over and the actual swing seats come off. Its becoming a real pain to put back up so I am giving it to my DIL.

As to how discussions are brought to the B&L first page. A leader may have suggested a good book and she/he gets a techie to place a place for you and me to vote on whether we would like to read the book. If there are enough folks interested, like 4 or 5, it then goes up in the Future Discussions list. Got anything you might want to try to dicusss? Suggest is here and maybe a DL will take you up on it!

Hi Ann,

My swing can stay up year round here so I don't have that dismantling issue to deal with. My dog takes one side, I take the other and we read together. LOL

Thanks to you and also Ginny for the info on upcoming groups. I take it there isn't any set "schedule" per se then. Looks like I'm good to go through August and then in September comes Poe. I'll use August to read Poe and get ready, I guess. I wondered if another Round the World was coming up.

As to a suggestion then yes- I have always wanted to read THE MAKIOKA SISTERS and I think that would fit into the Round the World venue. Here is a link to the info on this book, considered by many to be a "modern classic".

LINK

Super Scootz, would you post that in the Read Around the World discussion? I am not sure when their next one will be but they are always looking for new suggestions!

But hist? Is that a boat whistle I hear? Or happy shouts of readers? Yes, or both? The Professor's House is open as a Proposed, and it's our first stop voted on our Houseboat down the lazy river this summer, come get on board, state your intention to join us, and say what you'd like. We'll keep an oar ready for you.

This is my first Cather, I'm very excited. Come on down!

It's like Colonial HOuse, Frontier HOuse and Victorian House w/ the people living on a ranch in the 19th century. So many of the people have such sensitive natures that someone is always saying"I've been disrespected!!" And they aren't staying in the time and character as well as the people did in the others, IMO. ......it's a fun watch, but some of the people are VERY annoying......I'm assuming that some of our Texas friends here must be watching............jean

Boy do I relate to the above posts. If I am tired I do have days where I seem to work like heck all day and accomplish little. I think the piece is very clever!

Great, Ann! Funny because it's true.

Robby

I have read all of Lorna Landvik and enjoyed them. Since I am an easterner, her world is quite different from any of my experience, so it is fun to enter it.

series on PBS and end up getting so annoyed that I most often don't finish with them. They always turn out to be a bunch of whiners! I don't know what these people expect when they sign on to do these shows. It's as though they have no concept that living back in those times was just darned hard work! And you are right that they are breaking a lot of the rules in this one and not sticking to the time period. It's interesting but not as good, IMO, as some of the other "house" shows that have been done.

Gosh Scootz, I picked up a Lanvik awhile back -- Angry Housewives doing something, but I don't think it was eating bonbons. Do they do anything else?

I just came across this in today's Seattle Times -- A review of a new Anne Tyler, and some surprising (to me) information about her late husband.

Digging to America:Strangers in an Adopted Land

"It may not be generally known that Anne Tyler's husband was Taghi Modarressi,a writer born and educated in Tehran whose career, after two beguiling novels, "The Book of Absent People" and "The Pilgrim's Rules of Etiquette," was cut criminally short by his death in 1997
Her new novel, "Digging to America," focuses on two families. One is white-bread American (actually, make that whole-wheat-bread American). The other is Iranian-American."

Gosh Scootz, I picked up a Lanvik awhile back -- Angry Housewives doing something, but I don't think it was eating bonbons. Do they do anything else?

LOL, well, no, not the Lorna Landvik ones don't. They all eat bonbons.

I finshed my Trollope last night. What a sense of accomplishment- 800 pages and I did it myself. My DVD of THE WAY WE LIVE NOW also arrive yesterday so I can watch it anytime- 5 delicious hours worth.

What on earth shall I read next? Can decide if I want light, short, or just what. I love making the new choice though.

SCOOTZ, I'm finally getting around to mention Trollope, not Anthony, but a talented, prolific descendant of his, Joanna Trollope. She wrote several bestsellers, among them "Other People's Children", "The Best of Friends" and also "The Rector's Wife" and "The Choir". The last two became Masterpiece Theatre productions.

PEDLN, I'm waiting for Anne Tyler's new book "Digging to America", which should be interesting: about an American couple, an Iranian couple, adoptions, families adapting to a new home and country, new culture, different history.

The name of Tyler's late husband is mentioned in all her early books in the back, I know, and so is the fact that they had two daughters. But I thought he was a physician, if memory serves me - or do I confuse him with Erica Jong's ex-husband in "Fear of Flying" of ages ago ?? Oh my. Eric Jong has also just published a new book and reviewed in the NYT Book Review; non fiction, about writing, if I remember correctly.

I'm not a mystery fan but never miss a new one by Donna Leon. I've pre-ordered her latest Commissario Guido Brunetti mystery, "Through a Glass, Darkly" (about glass blowing on the island of Murano), available later this month. The author lives in Venice, and all her books are set there and in that region, which is special to me.

Traude, I'm glad you mentioned Joanna Trollope. I did know she was a relative, (grandaughter, great-granddaughter)but I knew nothing about her books. So, I take it you recommend them? I'll have to try one sometime. I sorta thought they were "fluff" but I don't think MT does fluff.

I saw that Donna Leon new book the other day. Their covers are so distinctive so I knew it was hers. I've never read one, but have wanted to try. Which is first in her series?

I loved SNOW FLOWER AND THE SECRET FAN so decided to try one of Lisa See's mysteries, set in China. It's called DRAGON BONES, and so far pretty interesting. It's so dang hard after a great read- everything pales in comparison for a while.

WSJ* does a book section of their own and today's has an article on that new Ann Tyler. Looks interesting!

In addition, there's a new book out about Beau Brummel. I know nothing of this man beyond the expression of being a clothes horse. Seems his Dad was a bit of an Augustus Melmotte (from the Trollope novel). I may have to follow up on this one. Anyone know anything about Beau Brummel?

LINK

Someone once gave me instructions on how to reduce the link, but I lost them, else I'd do that for you all.

Wall Street Journal

I love Anne Tyler and did think her marriage was always mentioned in the early books. I have read all of hers and will read the new one when it comes out in paperback. I have read some of Joanna Trollop and liked them. She is not bubblegum type,, but raises issues in each one dealing with women who do not fit into a stereotype. The Rectors Wife was really good.

I shortened the url.

The "code" for a link is:

<a href="CompleteURLhere">Name you call it here </a>

Traude, I do enjoy Donna Leon, although I 've only read a few. So glad to hear she has a new one coming out, and glass blowing shoud prove to be a fascinating topic. Speaking of glass-blowing, remember a months back, here or somewhere in Books, we were talking about Dale Chihuly, glass blowing artist? He's now having an exhibit at the St. Louis Botanical Gardens, which should be there most of the summer. I'm thrilled and plan to go up next month to see it.

I've never read any Trollope and now I'm getting confused. Whose books were you all talking about -- Anthony's or Joanne's?

Am visiting son and family and have just started my granddaughter's copy of Curtis Sattenfield's Prep. A first person novel about a young girl at prep school.

It's well written, interesting, but I don't know if I can take four years of teen-age angst. Have any of you read it through to completion? What's your recommendation?

pedln, about 1 1/2 years ago, there was a Chihuly exhibit at the Atlanta Arboretum. We drove down to see it, and it was incredible! I hope the one in St. Louis is as dramatic. We'll go anywhere within reason to see one of his exhibits. I has his exhibit web site as a favorite, so we can check it frequently. Enjoy, take pictures, and tell us all about it!

I just finished Summer in Tuscany and enjoyed the read. I hated The 3rd Degree by Patterson and honestly gave up on it half way through the book. I read my first Maya Angelou book, The Heart of a Woman. It is her personal story in the 50's and 60's & filled with vignettes of famous people. It is a joyous and troubling story about her love for her son, as we travel the journey with her..

I returned from the library with <UThe Thin Place, Small Island and Veronica a story I have been chomping at the bit to read.

SMALL ISLAND is fabulous!!!

Scootz, if you go to the very, very top of this page, on the right-hand side you'll see a stack of links, one called "Help," in particular. Click on it, then look down the page just a bit, and click on HTML Help, and you will get to a page with all the handy reminders about how to post links and pictures. I never remember the HTML for posting pictures, so I used to never post them, now I just go to that and copy and paste and fill out the tags for pictures, like this:

As the Crown Prince of Dandies, I adore Beau Brummel. Thanks for the information on the book which I will try to go out and buy today, or order!

Brummel is generally mentioned by name in every Regency Romance novel ever written. My mom reads Regency Romances, and as a teenager in lazy summers, my sister and I read them when we didn't have anything else--which was not often. We made cut-up stories about my mom's romance novels, including fabulously overdressed men with magnificently tied cravats dining on delectable dishes that required 5 pages for a single gastronomic platter to be described. The men in our stories always, because we read Dickens, also, got intricately patterned gravy and sauce stains on their cravats, requiring additional pages of description of the stains, how they immersed in the folds, and clues (Encyclopedia Brown and the board game Clue) that led to fanciful artwork by various Dutch artists being stolen by the butler armed with a walking stick with tortoise shell head from the island of Corfu off the coast of Italy. It was a hoot as, Ginny I believe, says.

Kleo

Kleo,

Duly noted the help link and thanks for that. Being somewhat new, I tend to just come and do and not investigate. It's a fault of mine.

Your cut-up stories sound fun , Dickens details notwithstanding.

I always remember Beau Brummel as the man singlehandedly responsible for changing men's fashions from the brightly colored silks and satins to the sophisticated black and white that is still the accepted formal attire today. I remember seeing a movie about him many years ago. His influence was apparently entirely due to his friendship with Crown Prince Edward. An interesting man.

Babi

A guilty pleasure of mine is reading Georgette Heyer's Regency Romances. Her descriptions of men's clothing fads can be hilarious.

MRS.SHERLOCK, as long as you're not reading porn, no reading pleasure is a guilty one. (Now we'll see who jumps on that one.)

Babi

Mrs. Sherlock, I was introduced to Georgette Heyer in the early 60s by a friend who classified herself as a "pseudo intellectual" and therefore was able to enjoy Heyer's novels. Presumably genuine intellectuals do not enjoy them. I collected almost all of them--and there were many. I didn't enjoy her mysteries as much as her romance novels. Her heroines were always strong and sassy and the descriptions of life in the regency period were wonderful.

I loved her wordy sentences. I counted once on the first page of one of her books a sentence which had more than 200 words! When I moved away from the country, I let the bookseller who was helping clean out my barn take all of them as I knew I'd not be able to store them. I reread most of them many times. I think I'd classify her novels as in the style of Jane Austen. Sue

We here in Columbus,OH are so thrilled to have seen this notice about Chihuly's permanent exhibit at our Franklin Park Conservatory. He mounted a huge exhibit here in 2003 or 04 that I attended three times. ONce in the evening where they played classical music thruout the conservatory while the peices were all specially back lit. We even wandered with wine and cheese that evening. So, now we have our own collection, right here in downtown Columbus! What a coup!

Chihuly at the Conservatory----Permanent Collection

In October 2004, the Friends of the Conservatory, a private, nonprofit group that supports the Conservatory's programming, purchased Dale Chihuly's artworks that drew record crowds to Franklin Park Conservatory in 2003 - 2004. Franklin Park Conservatory is the only public botanical garden in the world to own a signature collection of Chihuly's artworks, which represents over 3,000 pieces of glass. Eight pieces are on permanent display, and the remaining artworks will be remounted and presented for special shows in the future.

I now have a list of 5 new to me titles to research and reserve at my library. Cut it out! I am drowning here in lovely books!

"Spring": Heyer's books are being reissued, one per month. The first time I read Sprig Muslin, I almost laughed myself sick. Like you the mysteries leave me cold. Her research was so thorough the the English Military Academy, Sandhurst, used her notes in their study of Waterloo. (I found a biography of Heyer on a remainder table one time and gobbled it up.)

Wow, Ann, that is something for Columbus to be proud of. If I ever get to Columbus I'd want to see that exhibit.

Mary Z -- I wonder if what's coming to St. Louis will be the same exhibit you had in Atlanta.

A few weeks ago my Seattle daughter sent me the recent email dialog between her and her college roommate (from Toronto) from 25+ years ago. Goes like this:
Roommate --"Hi, we're coming to Seattle this weekend to see our favorite artist. Hope we can see you guys too.
Daught. "Great. How about Sat. night? Who's the artist?"
RM "Dale Chihuly. We started serious investing in glass about five years ago and we're coming for a demonstration and workshop."
Daught. (after several deep gulps.) "Wow. Sat. night?"
RM "Sure, after the dinner is over."
Daughter hasn't recovered yet.

Have any of you read "The Reader" by Bernard Schlink? That is the selection by book club has selected for June. I did not particularly like it myself. Now, I am reading "Smoke in Mirrors" by Jane Ann Krentz, recommended by someone here in SN. I am going to Atlanta on Tuesday and wanted to carry a book to read while I am there. Oops, I am already over half way through the book! It is a mystery, which I don't really particularly care for, but I am enjoying this book.

pedln, obviously, your daughter was properly impressed - I certainly would be!

Well, I finally saw the film Capote tonight. I had seen the film In Cold Blood many years ago but never read the novel. I didn't realize the film Capote was mainly about Truman Capote's experience researching and writing In Cold Blood. It was really fascinating. He was extremely involved with the murderer Perry Smith over four years. They developed a personal relationship during visits while Smith was on Death Row. Capote was unable to finish his book until Smith was finally to be executed. Capote witnessed the execution. Apparently, he never completed another book after he finished In Cold Blood. I also didn't realize that for awhile Capote worked with longtime friend Harper Lee (To Kill a Mockingbird) to research the murder story.

Now I'm going to have to read In Cold Blood. Apparently, when Capote wrote it, he created the non-fiction novel.

Hi Marni,(waving)

I love Maya Angelou. Alf, I loved "The Heart of a Woman." I love anything she writes. I especially love to see her interviewed too. Maya Angelou is wise, cautious, sophisticated. The list goes on.

Scootz, Is it "A Lesson before Dying" by Ernest Gaines? I love him too. My favorite book by Ernest Gaines is "The Gathering of Old Men."

marni, Capote was by far the best film I saw last year. I read IN COLD BLOOD years and years ago. I bet I'd enjoy it more now.

Hats,

Nope, sorry.

Well gosh, BBC has already made the BEAU BRUMMEL book into a film production. I'm definitley going to get this one and read it before it comes on tv. Take a look-see.

BEAU BRUMMEL on BBC*

*I did it!!

Wow Chihuly is a favorite of ours, although we cannot afford his stuff. We did see the Columbus display and the whole area is just lovely Glass, plants, very well done. Columbus should be proud of the conservatory. We have seen his shows in Orlando and Tampa as well. Generally each show is quite different although there are common elements. Orlando Museum bought a very large piece like an octupus from his show. I never tire of looking at it. Looks different every time, especially if they change the lighting. Georgette Heyer. I am the opposite. I love the mysteries, but did not care much for the regency stuff.

Marni- when I was younger, I read In Cold Blood and considered it the best book I had ever read. It was so long ago, I am wondering if I would feel the same way at this point in my life. I first became interested in Capote when I was doing some research on Dorothy Parker. They were fast friends, with a strong love/hate relationship. The book does explain Capote's obsession with the murderers in much more detail than the movie allowed. The fellow that played Capote was fabulous, I thought in his portrayal.

Well, has anyone else here read Veronica, by Mary Gaitskill? I don't usually mind offensive language or scenes, unless there are children involved but this book could have been so much better without the redundancy of the raw sex scenerios (IMHO.) I kept wondering as I read if this scene or that scene was important to the context of the novel. I guess many were as it was about a young teen roaming the streets and being swept into the "modeling" world. The depth of this writer's words is impressive. The novel moves around very quickly with flash back scenes galore. I felt that if she had concentrated more on the characters and less on the reasons they became who they were, I would have given it a 10* rating. Her words were mesmerizing and gave me pause to sit back and really think about what she was saying; for example "The new songs had no humility. They pushed past the veil and opened a window into the darkness and climbed through it with a knife in their teeth." Or this sentence""I thought of the rivulet of hope and sweetness in Veronica's voice. Sadness brimmed; it bore up my hate like water bears ice and carries it away." Prety deep stuff.

But Alf, wouldn't the reasons the characters became who they were be important to the characterizations? I haven't read the book and am not familiar with the author, but I can emphasize with some of your other reasons for not liking the book as much as you hoped.

So, you were here and you didn't call? Next time, I expect to hear from you. Tee hee! I believe that Chihuly exhibit was here before we met at Isle of Palms. Oh well, maybe you will return sometime when Mary is here also.

Marni - I'm expecting to see Capote this week sometime - will let you know what I think - have never read Cold Blood - but probably will sometime soon. My son said the film was the best of the crop this year.

Betty Allen - The Reader is not a pleasant read by any means but I found it very telling and quite confronting at times. It is one of the best books I've read on how the new generation deals with its parents' collective guilt about something so all emcompassing as the Holocaust. Schlink has a collection of short stories available in English - worth reading.

CONGRATULATIONS to Pat Westerdale, who is featured in this absolutely fabulous article about Volunteering, and SeniorNet Online~!

Caught up in the Web
Retiree finds volunteer career with the Internet

Pat, you have done us and SeniorNet all proud! Congratulations!! WOW!

Ginny,

Thank you for sharing this article. What a wonderful and inspiring article. I have read every bit of it. Pat Westerdale, you are an inspiration.

Terrific, Pat! Looking forward to seeing you again at the Montreal Bash.

Robby

Isn't that a fantastic article about Pat and SeniorNet!

jane

Pat, I hope I'm as active and involved as you are when I'm 77. Bravo!

A wonderful article about our wonderful Pat W. I wish they had included a picture of her. Congratulations, Pat.

PAT, a wonderful article and well-deserved praise for the work you do in SN with such dedication and patience. I have been the beneficiary of your technical knowhow and advice many times and use this occasion to once again express my gratitude.
The work of our techies is truly invaluable.

Congratulations, PatW, and many, many thanks for the long hours you spend coding for SN so we computer nudnicks can enjoy this wonderful web site. You are a jewel in the SeniorNet crown. Sue

This is such an active site, posts come at a fast clip, and I for one have trouble keeping up, though I am trying.

PEDLN, I believe the original discussion here was about ANTHONY T., 1815-1882, a prolific writer of Victorian life. My reference in a recent post was to a descendant of his, JOANNA Trollope, a bestselling British author.

I came to Joanna T. by way of the Masterpiece production of "The Rector's Wife", spontaneously bought the book, liked it and read several others. She is prolific, just like her ancestor, and - as STEPHANIE said - she addresses women's issues, women's lives in novels that women are more likely to read than men.
(Perhaps more men should ? ha ha!)

But then that is true also for authors like Alice Hoffman, Anita Shreve (has anyone read "The Weight of Water", "The Pilot's Wife" for instance? ), in fact for Anne Tyler.

ANTHONY Trollope left a large body of work, including books on travel, a study of Thackeray, an autobiography, and a series of Parliamentary novels, so named because the British Parliament was the thread.
The first of these was "Phinneas Finn" (1869), and a wonderful, gifted, dedicated teacher (in my other life) led us, seniors in an all girls' school, through this book so well that I still remember the plot.

What a great article about Pat! Since I met her at her last Elderhostel, I can certainly agree with it. She's a dynamo, who just won't quit.

Congratulations Pat W.! What a wonderful article about a wonderful person!! I have had the pleasure and opportunity of meeting PatWest several times and consider myself lucky to know such a person. looking forward to seeing you again in July Pat.

Traude, I have read several books by Joanna Trollope and enjoyed her writing very much.

Joan Grimes

Wow, what a great article, Pat. Thanks so much for talking with the writer about SeniorNet and your skillful dedication to our online community.

It's still time to think about coming to the Bash in Montreal next July 20th to 24th folks. You will have a ball with other SeniorNetters who are all geared up to visit Quebec City. We will go on a cruise on Saturday for a Brunch. A banquet is scheduled for Sunday. Come and join us, we will have lots of fun.

Éloïse

Donna Leon's new book "Through a Glass, Darkly", her 15th, was mentioned favorably in Marilyn Stasio's column about mysteries in today's NYT Book Review.

I don't know which was Leon's first book, but my first experience was her "Death at La Fenice" about the murder of an internationally known conductor at the famous Opera House La Fenice (= The Phoenix in English), which burned down under suspicious circumstances several years ago (it wasn't the first time either!) and has since been rebuilt and reopened 3 (4?) years ago.

Leon, a music connoisseur of the first order and a tireless fundraiser for the cause, opens all her books with a quote from a Mozart aria. In "Death at La Fenice" it is from Così Fan Tutte.

(BTW, after "Death at La Fenice" was published, there were rumors that the fictious maestro was patterned after the Austrian conductor Herbert von Karajan.)

Re Julia Glass
Thank you, SCOOTZ, for mentioning Glass's new book. I will watch out for it.
Our local book group read her award-winning Three Junes and the discussion was spirited. We've met for years and years and had different impressions/opinions of the book. We were still debating as we were leaving ...

The local group was divided also over "A Hole in the Universe" by Mary McGarry Morris, author of "Songs in Ordinary Time", which was an Oprah choice. Some felt that "A Hole in the Universe" was too violent and found reading painful.

ALF, sorry to say but I never heard of Mary Gaitskill or Veronica , her third book. As for explicit sex scenes: they seem to help sell books. Hmmmm

ÉLOÏSE, if there were a magic carpet, I'd be on it for sure and join in the fun. I'll be with you in spirit, though.

PatW: I was so excited to read that article about you. Very cool! I said to myself, "I worked with her; I worked with her!!"

The BBC Beau Brummell sounds terrific. I can't wait to see it! I don't know anything about him. I was so surprised to read he introduced the waltz to England. The waltz was illegal at the time it was introduced - considered totally shocking because couples held each other while dancing.

Traude,

I loved "Songs in Ordinary Times" by Mary McGarry Morris. I read that one with Oprah. Good book.

What fun! I have always wanted to make a trip to Canada. I bet a bash with the Senior is loads of fun.

Traude,

Ditto for my group on THREE JUNES as well. We all gave it a thumbs up, some higher than others. Did I mention that Fenno reappears in this new one?

marni,

I am wondering if I made a mistake on that BBC show. It says in the article BBC Four, not BBC Amercia, so I am curious if I can get it. I have started the book. Was looking at lots of pictures, etc online yesterday about Beau Brummel. Here is one of the homes where he lived. Nice little shanty!

Beau Brummel's Donnington Grove

I intend to be at that Bash in Montreal in July.

Robby

Wonderful area, lots of great posts, and lots to respond to, Sue, I'm still way back there with your group's idea, I just think it's smashing, and would like to say more about that but am late, more later but just dropping in to say this about illustrations posted in this discussion:

Just a reminder if you're going to post any illustration here, it needs to illuminate and augment the subject we're talking about and be no larger than a maximum of 400-500 pixels wide and high and 35 k in size, you can right click on the image to make sure it conforms to SN Graphics Policy Guidelines, which you can see at the bottom of every posting box.

Illustrations which do not conform to SN Graphics Policy Guidelines will be made links.

FYI, back in a minute!

Those of you who are from the Books and going to Montreal (it sounds fabulous, Eloise!!) please get together and have at least ONE photo made for our Bookmobile!

Alas, no Montreal for me this year. But I have visited the city many times and love it. It has got to be one of the cleanest and well run cities I have ever visited.. Although really really cold by October. We visited Columbis in the coach and stayed way the heck outside the city at a lake.. Nice lake though. But went into the city to go to see the Chilhully stuff and the planatarium which is magnificent..Then to Germantown?? which sort of escaped us. We did have lunch in an old brewery, but it was mostly a sports bar, so no interesting food. Then the next day we went to the zoo..Really really nice zoo, although heavily under construction. Then off to visit a small canal recreation town which was fun.. Also drove by the famous basket building. What a hoot from the highway.

Scootz: I'll keep my eyes open for any sign of the Beau Brummel program.

I noticed that Pedln mentioned that there is a Chihuly exhibit at the Botanical Garden in St. Louis now, so I told my son who lives in Glen Carbon, IL, about it. I suggested he take his wife, have lunch at the Botanical Garden and enjoy the exhibit. Much to my pleasure, he e-mailed right back that they'd already made a date to go to St. Louis to the Botanical Garden to see the Chihuly glass. Thanks Pedln for the heads up on this special event. Sue

There is so much information and sharing here every day. Thank you all !

Traude, thank you! I thank all of the others too. This is a wonderful corner of the world.

The regency period (1812 –1820) is the most interesting period of English History. During these years the Napoleonic Wars finally came to an end and England began the prelude years that led to the golden Victorian Age. My favorite book on the Regency is non-fiction, “The Prince Of Pleasure” by the late Victorian/ early 19th century essayist, J.B Priestley. It is a large almost coffee, table hard cover book with hundreds of period pictures many in full color. There are short text chapters outlining the characters in events of each of the nine years comprising the Regency period, 1812 –1820. Each of these accounts includes detail on scores of the luminaries (the famous and the infamous) active during the period.

Beau’ Brummell who was active during the period until 1816 when he was forced to leave England is covered in the “1813” Chapter. He had become the popular dandy of the age and despite several social confutations with the Prince Regent from which he emerged with a draw he was the most popular personality of the age. It was gambling losses and debt that forced his exile in 1816. After that year he lived in France where he lingered until his death in 1837. Before his death he went quite mad in a manner that suggests the result of end stage syphilis. J.B. Priestley who had no particular admiration for dandies concluded “but for me there is something appealing about Beau Brummell at the height of his fame and cool Impudence."

Unfortunately the Priestley, “Prince of Pleasure” book is now out of print. I note there is now another title with the same name by another author in print but its pictures are black and white and its text is lacking the style and authenticity of the original Priestley publication that can still be obtained from libaries and of course the used book market.

To PatW ~
Wonderful article and you deserve the recognition !! Brava!

Thank you, Harold, and everyone for all the fun stuff about Beau Brummel. I've always been fascinated by him, and it's fun to see all this other interest in him.

Kleo

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN! I know you have had two Bruce Feiler books in the past year, but his latest, "Where God Was Born", is, IMO, the best of the lot. I learned so much from it, while at the same time mentally arguing with him and challenging many of his somewhat offhand statements.

Would any of you be interested to reading and discussing this book? However annoyed I occasionally became with Mr. Feiler, the major point he is trying to make is challenging, and valid.

Babi

Ginny, for sure we will take photos of the bookies.

The Bash is getting more and more organized, we have made more plans about sites to see in Montreal and a dinner cruise is now on the program. I wish you were all coming, there is still room for more people.

Harold: Thanks for the info about Beau Brummel.

Pedlin- I finished the book "Prep". It was a fast read that left a bad taste in my mouth, and in my brain. There are so many more in depth books about boarding school and this one felt like an unripe pear. The author is very young and I'm sure as she grows up she will mature.

On the other hand Joanna Trollope is, in my opinion, a simply wonderful writer. Perhaps not as great as her ancestor but still an excellent story teller with a serious idea underlying each book.

Pat West-Kudos! You do such great work for Seniornet that you deserve to be honored.

Judy

Yes congratulations Pat! Thank you for all the work you do for us.

Carolyn

Hi Babi,

I would love to have a group discussion about Bruce Feiler's "Where God Was Born." I think it would make an exciting discussion. I really like to read Bruce Feiler's books. I have my fingers crossed.

Judy,

Which Joanna Trollope do you recommend one start with?

Don't know Bruce Feiler- who he? is it a religious book? I make it a firm policy never to talk politics or religion online. Much too dangerous for my liking.

I was born in Montreal many moons ago. hope you all have a wonderful time. I'm sure you will.

Thanks for the information re Brummel. I'm learning a lot- had never even heard of the "Regency Period" till beginning the book.

This link re "Dandies" is pretty interesting and understandable. Who were the Macaronis?

Dandies

The Rectors Wife by Joanna Trollope is a really realy good read..You might want to start there. I think it was a movie as well. Yes, do tell us about Bruce Feiler, never heard of him and too lazy just now to google.

Wow, so many posts, so much exciting literary talk, go away for a day or so and you can't get back on the Merry Go Round, I'll just jump IN!

Babi, super idea on the Feiler book, they are still rerunning his PBS series here, why not get up a Proposed and see if anybody would like to join you? And Ann? I think that would be super.

I see that the Philip Roth Everyman is the cover story for the NY Times Sunday Book Supplement last Sunday, it looks smashing, to me.

We have just a lovely shipboard of voyagers about to embark and now climbing up the gangplank in the Houseboat discussion of Willa Cather's The Professor's House, due to begin May 15. The book is available online, so if you are curious about the American Midwest of the 1920's and some of the issues that pertain to all of us, regardless of the country you live in, please come aboard before it's too late. We're having a good time there, being silly, the actual discussion will start with a fresh board May 15, it's a short book, too, voted in by our readers.

Sue, I can't get your group's innovative idea out of my mind. I would like to try it sometime here in SeniorNet's Books. You may have to help me understand the set up. We choose a THEME and then each person reads one or more books of his own choosing FOR this discussion which illuminates that theme and then we show how each book tackles it. I think that is absolutely brilliant, and would like to try it one time!

We have another excellent article coming out on one of our Books & Culture folks in Johann McCrackin, who is in the Latin and Greek classes, who has been honored as Volunteer of the Year in a large hospital in Myrtle Beach, SC. Johann is also a SeniorNet Discussion Leader and you've doubtless seen her around in some of the other discussions on SeniorNet, she logged in 6,000 hours this past year. The article will come out on Sunday, just a super person.

I feel very enriched with all the super people here, those we know about and those we don't, you're all fabulous. We may try to do some short reader profiles in the future so you can all know more about the folks you're talking with.

Traude speaks of mysteries and Donna Leon and I almost forgot to tell you all that Joan G will be doing a PBS Special in June on the Miss Marple series. So many of you said that you enjoyed Christie, and here's our chance to compare the most recent Miss Marple (Geraldine McEwan) with others you may have seen and Christie's own original book. I understand that they have taken some "creative liberties" with Christie!?! Won't THAT be interesting? She's hard to improve on. Yet they did the same thing, Antony Boucher did, with the radio Sherlock Holmes starting Basil Rathbone and Nigel Bruce and they were such a hit they named the Boucher Awards after him.

So we want to keep an open mind. But do seek out the Miss Marple series on PBS and let's…keep an open mind. You may remember Geraldine McEwan as "Lucia" (she of the very irritating voice) on the Mapp and Lucia series.

As well mystery audio fans will be delighted to find a new twist to our Book Exchange, keep watching that area for more details!

Scootz that's a good question about Macaronis, Calls to mind the song, "Yankee Doodle Dandy, stuck a feather in his hat and called it "macaroni." Love it!

But now Scootz, we need another clue on the Pick a Plot because I am ashamed to say I have never read Conrad's Heart of Darkness and have no idea what it is about? How about another clue??!!??

Ok here's another ignorant remark. I am enjoying everybody's enthusiasm about " Chihuly, " whom I had never heard of before. But HOW do you pronounce Chihuly??

Wait wait I've missed something again, Mrs. Sherlock, "sprig muslin?" Laughed? Do tell why??

Hello BETTY ALLEN!! Welcome! I have heard of The Reader, but never read it, will you report back here what your group said??

Marni and ALF, Capote is out on DVD and I have it, I've got his autobiography, too. The most interesting part of his life for me is that with Babe Paley. I really really want to see Philip Seymour Hoffman, his performance in Ripley was electric, I would not have known from listening it was the same man. And I hear he's in the new Mission Impossible.

ALF you were talking about Veronica and the modeling world, have you read The Devil Wears Prada? It's a new movie but I want to read the book first, supposedly based on a real person.

Gumtree, thank you for the knowledge that Schlink also has a collection of short stories out. I have never heard of him, and am glad to hear about The Reader, too. Great stuff here!

Thank you Harold for explaining about the historical background of the Beau Brummel period, lots of interest here in Beau! I'm glad to hear praise for Joanna Trollope, too, I liked The Rector's Wife, thought it was excellent, and she a good writer.

I'm going out to find The Devil Wears Prada.

OH did you see where the young woman whose first book was caught for plagarism, the college student, something about Mehta or something, has been caught AGAIN? Her soon to be released book is found to have copied from Sophie Kinsella's Can You Keep a Secret, for one thing, if I read that correctly and nobody writes like Kinsella. I wonder why on earth she thought it would not be caught? What a strange thing!

Another clue, eh?

Ok- it's hard because I read the book so long ago. I can't be obtuse so will be obvious- it's set in (what we now call) Myanmar. That oughta give it right away.

Feeling particularly generous this morning so here's the plot for HEART OF DARKNESS" So, take this plot, set it in Myanmar and give it a nicer spin. Voila'!

FROM THE PUBLISHER- B&N One of the most haunting stories ever written, Joseph Conrad’s Heart of Darkness follows Marlow, a riverboat captain, on a voyage into the African Congo at the height of European colonialism. Astounded by the brutal depravity he witnesses, Marlow becomes obsessed with meeting Kurtz, a famously idealistic and able man stationed farther along the river. What he finally discovers, however, is a horror beyond imagining. Heart of Darkness is widely regarded as a masterpiece for its vivid study of human nature and the greed and ruthlessness of imperialism.

Ginny, about Sprig Muslin. Heyer's books are romances set in the Regency Period and are, like Austin's, about mating rituals. Upper crust man with lots of money neets virtuous, poor, witty young girl, etc. In Sprig Muslin, the man is on his way to meet a potential wife when he is caught in the net of a very determined 15 year-old, grandaughter of a general, who has run away from home because her grandfather won't let her marry the man of her choice. She believes she can get a job as a maid in an inn! Well, no innkeeper with half a brain is going to hire someone of her quality so he has to kidnap her against her will and take her along with him to the country home of his host. She is very resourceful and the plot begins to thicken. It sounds trite, but then Austin's plots are not all that deep either. The fun is in the personalities of the characters and the complications they almost leap into. This would make a good farce on the stage. BUT you have to get "into" it, logic does not apply. I love these Heyer regencies, but Stephanie, whose taste I deeply respect (because she likes so many of my favorite authors) apparently does not "dig" the regencies. Go figure.

SCOOTZ, I missed the original question about 'Heart of Darkness". Would you mind repeating it? Thanks.

Traude, It's up above in the heading^. It wasn't a question as such, but a description of the title we're looking for. (Can't believe someone hasn't already gotten it. ) My f2 group did the book and we talked about its similarities to HOD. It (the similarity) is also alluded to in many of the reviews of the book. It's not precisely the same, but similar in many ways.

Ginny: That's very cool that you have Truman Capote's autograph. Philip Seymour Hoffman was superb as Capote. He is superb in whatever he acts in. He is a true character actor - complete metamorphosis when he changes roles. He made me cry in his heart-wrending performance as the man who nursed Tom Cruise's dying father in Magnolia.

Heart of Darkness was the basis for the film Apocalypse Now.

HATS, that makes one definite 'yes!'. For further info. on Feiler and the book, I found this, which says it better than I can.

Where God Was Born A Journey by Land to the Roots of Religion by Bruce Feiler

At a time when America debates its values and the world braces for religious war, Bruce Feiler, author of the New York Times bestsellers Walking the Bible and Abraham, travels ten thousand miles through the heart of the Middle East -- Israel, Iraq, and Iran -- and examines the question: Is religion tearing us apart ... or can it bring us together?

Where God Was Born combines the adventure of a wartime chronicle, the excitement of an archaeological detective story, and the insight of personal spiritual exploration. Taking readers to biblical sites not seen by Westerners for decades, Feiler's journey uncovers little-known details about the common roots of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, and affirms the importance of the Bible in today's world.

So, yes, Scootz, it is about religion, but not in any way trumpeting the virtues of one over the others. I don't think you need fear getting into a hassle about it. His first two books were discussed freely and openly, ..and peacefully.

Babi

Ah religon.. count me out. Religon brings out the worst on senior net.. as does womens rights. I like Heyer, just not as fond of regency as the detective stories. You must remember I owned a used book store and was always awash in romance readers.. A certain type of them adores regency.. others not. So I read a few, but after a bit, I realized it is the same book over and over. I am just starting a MIchael Connely.. about his rejoining the police force and going on the cold case squad. As always Harry is interesting to me. I get the feeling he is being set up, but cant see how.

I'm sorry, Stephanie, but the topic of religion which has often been in the forefront of the group discussing "The Story of Civilization" has never "brought out the worst on Senior Net." In the entire five-year period of this ongoing discussion, not once -- not once -- was there the need to remove someone. The ground rule of "issues not personalities" has been followed assiduously by every participant. Vicious attacks never occurred.
You are welcome to join us.

Robby

I agree with Robbie - you are likely to find more viciousness in the Religions folder than you ever would here in any of the book discussions. I like to think we are adult and intelligent enough to respect each others opinion and when differences come up we are big enough to agree to disagree.

Carolyn

Thank you, SCOOTZ. I'd like to make a guess: Were you thinking of The Piano Tuner by Daniel Mason ?

The weather has reverted to a miserable cold, the heat has come on again and my arthritis is giving me fits. Sorry to be so brief.

"I wonder why on earth she thought it would not be caught? What a strange thing!"

Sigh. Well, I was willing to give her the benefit of doubt the first time, but now this is just silly. She didn't think she'd get caught on the second book?

Oh, well, the romance queen plagiarized tons of her rival's books and got away with it for years for some reason.

Kleo

Ginny mentioned that I will be leading a Discussion of an Agatha Christie mystery which is being shown on PBS on June 4. Check your local times. The title of the book which has been filmed is Sleeping Murder. To read about the production click on Miss Marple II Series.

am leaving for Ireland tomorrow and will return on May 22nd. You will see more about this discussion when I return.

Joan Grimes

Have a wonderful trip, Joan!

Scootz- You asked for a suggestion about Joanna Trollope. Of the ones I've read I thought "Other Peoples Children" was the best written. My f2f book group all liked it which is amazing since we are always disagreeing over most books. Hope you have an enjoyable read.

Judy

For the MYSTERY Book I would guess :

Burmese Days by George Orwell..

Judy

I'm about burned out on cutsie mysteries and police detective novels and spy books have become dated so that some of them are still involved with fighting the nazies. Maybe biography. I've got that lewis-clark book UNDAUNTED COURAGE blinking at me It's not so likely to involve religion. I stood that as long as I could not only at SOC ...sorry robbie, but also at the religious discussions which are inclined to be nasty and irrational depending on who and whom. . .same thing at political discussions. I guess the most rational and pleasant folks are found here and at the great books discussions. I'm giving it a rest while I catchup on real life paper work. Like Stephanie though I FEEL THAT any discussion here that leaves room for religion to creep in is a good reason for me to creep OUT. . . CLAIRE

Traude-

you got it! and now, you're up!

Judy- I'll check that Trollope as well, thanks.

I may look in on your discussion but as I said- it's my policy. NO RELIGION, NO POLITICS online. Doubt that I need to say why. This policy stands me in good stead. No offense to anyone here. And just in case you're wondering- Christian, Democrat. Nuff said.

Joan Grimes- have a safe trip. We'll miss you in Houseboat.

Traude, Congratulations!

Robbie, I am sure you are right about your discussion, but the general discussions are genuinely ugly about certain topics. But I am simply not around for the long term ones like yours. We travel off and on and I like to be current on my reading. I like books or all types, but I know just from Davinci Code, that people get way too excited about religious stuff.

Well done, Traude! I guess I didn't read THAT one! hahaha

Even the clues were over my head, all I could think of on Clue number 2 was "on the road to Mandaley!" haahaha "Where the flying fishes play! And the dawn comes up like thunder.. " (one of us has a mind which runs to loose songs).

You're DEEP, our Scootz!! hahaha

Ok Traude, you're up at bat, pick any book in the Archives, and let her fly!

I'm off in a sec, after looking in at the Houseboat, it's about to storm, to get The Devil Wears Prada, and some of the cookbooks mentioned in the Recipe Book discussion which Scootz has singlehandedly revived, and Sue, there is a huge interest here in your Group's idea, we may do it on SeniorNet, thank you for telling us about it!

Ginny.. Tell me how you like The Devil wears Prada.. It is chic lit in a big way. I tried and tried, but could not finish. I guess I really dont care about brand names and the in thing.

Thank you. Now I'm up. Here goes.
This author is concerned with people's lives, sometimes outraged.

is this from the fiction archives, Traude?

I think that it would be difficult to discuss books with any real depth to it and keep politics AND religion off limits. It would pretty much require very careful selection and a limited focus and no viewing of the context of most works of great fiction. Or one could simply eliminate great fiction, I suppose.

Kleo

Yes to your question, Scootz; the pick is from the fiction archives.

I think that it would be difficult to discuss books with any real depth to it and keep politics AND religion off limits

I'm sure you realize that I was talking about my own personal religious and political beliefs, right? I can "deeply" discuss any book I want without doing that. It's not difficult at all.

Frankly, (and no offense intended here), but I have no desire or need to discuss very personal beliefs with strangers online. I do that only with family and friends who I know. That's my last word on this issue. I've probably already bored everyone to tears over it and I apologize if so- I just felt a bit challenged.

SeeniorNet has a very good set of guidelines to help people discuss books with sensitive topics (such as religion) without stepping on toes or intruding into personal topics, and it seems to work pretty well.

Scootz: You've said it beautifully.

Traude ~
My wild guess at your pick-a-plot:

Mystic River by Dennis Lehane

We have calmly and comfortably discussed several religious books and this one,"Where God Was Born", is certainly most interesting. I like Bruce Feiler's books and find them most fair and balanced about some of the religions born in the Middle East. Let's see, there was "Walking the Bible" by Feiler, "When Religion Becomes Evil" by Prof.Campbell, "Abraham" also by Feiler, "Islamic Threat: Myth or Reality" by John Esposito, "Princess" by Jean Sasson, "Leap of Faith" by Queen Noor. These are just a few of books that lean toward religious and political and current events discussions and that have been discussed here since 1998. Most of us have enjoyed these titles plus many more.

I can not think of one single book that we've discussed on Religion that caused any rancor. Why should it? We are here to share the written word. One of the best novels I enjoyed sharing with this group was The Red Tent and I ask you, what could have been more controversial had we allowed it? Our readers (ahem- most of us) are not confrontational. If they are, they soon leave us and we wave good-bye with glee.
This is a mature, loving, admirable group of folks who are here for the main purpose of sharing not belaboring their own point.

it's not the subject matter that matters. It's how it's viewed and expressed that makes it great, at least for it's time. . . i.e. dickens? anyhow for those who don't know me I don't attack but I do fight back so maybe the rule of no religion, politics is a pretty good one. I started a blog and I get to ACT OUT there now. It needn't happen here or in other peoples living rooms. . . .claire

http://actingout1.blogspot.com

Here's another clue : The author's outrage has to do with the way we are.

-------

CLAIRE, you mentioned your blog, so the following may be of interest.
Normally I just glance at the business section of the Boston Globe, but this headline two days ago caught my eye: "Online plagiarism strikes blog world".

Bloggers are being victimized by online plagiarists. "An alert reader recently informed someone named Beth that dozens of Beth's blog entries had been stolen, word for word, over a period of six months. Names of people in her life were changed to the names of people whom the plagiarist apparently knew, creating the impression that she had lived Beth's experiences and had thought her thoughts".
"This type of cut-and-paste plagiarism is widespread", said Jonathan Bailey, the author of Plagiarism Today', a blog dedicated to the issue of plagiarism on line.

It's certainly not difficult to discuss books that contain political and religious viewpoints. We have done it again and again here on SeniorNet.

I teach a course on the Bible every Spring and I have students that range from agnostic to born-again to Catholic to Jewish. No Muslims yet. I have no problems discussing the text with them.

Bloggers are being victimized by online plagiarists. How sad is it to feel you have to borrow someone's life in order to have an interesteing blog! Why ever would someone do that?

I didn't know it was happening. It's very sad. People want the easy way out.

Scootz, I thought you said something to the effect of you never talk politics or religion on-line, in relation to the mention of a religious book, not that you don't discuss yours. Anyway, I'm not sure there's anything to worry about. But great literature does tend to include religion and politics.

Kleo

Why do people steal blogs, plagarise etc?

Stealing Blogs is easy. The thief wants what you have and takes it to impress a friend , a potential lover ,a boss etc. The person may like the content or the style. These are very insecure folk who probably never learned to write their thoughts clearly or are not sure their thoughts are worth expressing. Pity them and send them to an expressive writing class or two.

Plagarism is a lot more complex. Usually money is involved . In the case of the Indian Harvard student 500,000 dollars were promised her if she complied with the guide lines set out by the Packager. A Packager is a person who outlines a plot by deciding whats HOT on the market right now.They then troll for someone who seems to know how to write a good English. This girl was 17 when she was approached by the Packager. However there is a date on which the book must be completely finished and delivered. The girl was under time pressure and so she stole passages from three other books. Probably stuff about sex which she was unfamiliar with.

Plagarism strikes me as a real crime and some punishment should be involved. In this case the book was taken off the shelves and she was asked to return the money. If she will do that is probably dependent on her lawyers.

Judy

JUDY, you are right on all counts. May I quote another short paragraph from that Globe article by Maura Welch, Globe Corresondent:
"While plagiarism has been around forever, it's now as easy as a click. And since anyone can publish for free, plagiarism has reached a whole new level of dastardliness."

Like HATS, I had no idea such "lifting" was going on. But from all indications, blogs are HUGELY popular. People love to talk about themselves, their achievements, and anything that comes to their mind. There is aapparently a readership of literally millions of people out there, who let their fingers do the walking.

As for the Indian student at Harvard, she was adroitly packaged and, no doubt, seduced by the color of money. It did not hurt that she is easy to look at. But if she was smart enough to get into Harvard, it is hard - if not impossible - not to wince at her feeble excuse - upon discovery - that she had "internalized" what she had read elsewhere.

JUDY, I promised recently to write more about Sebald, and I will, asap.

For those of you who saw the movie "Hotel Rwanda" -- writer, director, producer Terry George has an op-ed in today's Washington Post about the smear campaign against hotelier Paul Rusesabagina. Rusesabagina, a Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, has been denounced by countrymen and former friends and is being called a traitor and a criminal, abuse which George says is not deserved. Much of it is due to the political situation and Rusesabagina's criticism of the current regime. Rusesabagina's new autobiography, An Ordinary Man, is to be published soon.

Smearing a Hero

As has been said already, such discussiions have been done successfully here, and the ongoing SOC is an outstanding example.

We have also had well attended, illuminating discussions of Queen Noor's Leap of Faith, Memoirs of an Unexpected Life, ably led by ELLA and HARRIETT, in October of 2000 and, in December of 2005, When Jesus Came to Harvard, Making Moral Choices Today by Harvey Cox, wonderfully led by ELLA, BABI and GINGER.
You can check for yourselves, the discussion are in the nonfiction archive. P.S. I don't know what goes on in the political and/or religious folders; I've never looked for them.

Stephanie, Claire, Scootz...I understand what you are saying. When I first found SeniorNet I was excited to find they had forums for religious discussions, as it is a topic of great interest to me. I looked forward to intelligent study and insights on a number of the subjects listed.

Alas, that's not what I found. After attempting such discussion for several months, I gave it up. There was entirely too much dogged repetition of some individual viewpoints, not open too any offering of fact or alternative views whatsoever.

However, as Robbie, Ann, Alf and others have pointed out, this is NOT the way things are conducted in B&L discussions. There is no need whatsoever to talk about one's personal beliefs in a discussion of a book.

"Where God Was Born" is still on the board. If two or three more people are interested in joining Ann, Hats and I in a discussion of this challenging call to better understanding, then we will do it.

Babi

Babi: I would be interested, but can't absolutely commit now. I enjoyed the PBS discussion of "Walking the Bible". If the books are like the TV, although he mentions some personal beliefs, they are of a general philosophical nature. There is no need for anyone to discuss their personal beliefs unless they wish to. I am interested in it because I lived in Israel, and find the history of the area, and the history of ideas interesting. We should stick to the rule that each person, if they wish, may state their personal beliefs once and may not criticize or try to convert others.

as for me it's mostly opinion not history since I'm not prepared to share my life story with the rest of the world. it would be pretty boring anyhow. this is a place where I get to voice MY OPINION and no one cares.. . that's what's so nice about it. . . .also discuss art, which is my main thing and any odd thing that crosses my mind. as in walking is like falling forward and toddlers walk by following their heads. pretty much the same thing all of which takes the strain off of legs and hips. there who would steal that? . . .claire

I thought of this almost immediately from Traude's tips.

Ordinary People by Judith Guest

has an article about religion addressing the hubbub that is being raised over the movie of the novel of the Da vinci Code. such a fuss but nothing nasty. . . here claire

Babi, thank you for more information about the "Where God Was Born" discussion. I enjoyed very much the Abraham discussion hosted by Ella and Harold. I would like to add Persian's name too. She offered so much wonderful information during the discussion. Also, Ginger was there too. Then, the discussion "When Jesus Went to Harvard," Wow! Ella, Babi, Jonathan, Harold, Marvelle, Alliemae and others came forward with such interesting remarks. I think Sunknow entered that discussion too. If I have mixed up names, please excuse me.

These are discussions, among others, that I dearly remember as learning tools for my life not just conversations for a moment. Seniornet is a joy. It's a place of freedom. We are elderly people who have seen the good, bad and ugly in life. It doesn't stop. Seniors deal with new experiences each day: the hardships of illness, making our pennies stretch, people in society who continue not to treasure their elders.

Here, at Seniornet, there is refreshing water. We have so much in common. We understand one another as people who have lived through history and survived. Yet, we are not cynical. We continue to want to grow and share and give back to our families and communities.

Only on Seniornet could we speak about differences in race and not become angry and hard knuckled. AnnaFair is sharing such discussions daily. Guess what! We are not arguing and hating. We are seeing the delightful characteristics of one another.

I want to say so much about Seniornet. I dearly love this corner of the world. I do think of each person as my friend too. Kiwi and others remember the loss of Lorrie until this day. To me, Lorrie was not lost behind a computer. She was my friend. I never met her personally. That didn't matter. Sometimes we are more inhibited with the friends we see than with the people behind the computer.

Lastly, Whether a discussion is religious or political, it's impossible to agree on everything. What a boring book experience to remember. Disagreements are part of life. Hack it out and learn, you might remain the same person or you might grow from the experience. In discussions, I mumble and grumble about what I think of a book vs. somebody else. So what! We are not clones. We are like family. Besides, we are not disagreeing as much as just voicing a different opinion.

A book is living. You can not straitlace or put a bridle on a book. In general literature, you will question the society of that time. Literature, good literature, involves religion, politics, social issues. In Don Quixote, we have discussed the Inquisition. In "Pomegranate Soup," we discussed Iran and its politics. In "Remains of the Day," History, politics and all sorts of societal issues stretched their heads forward. We have discussed the Monarchy. Should it remain or not? Everybody voiced their opinion.

The people and the memory of these books and discussions are lasting. The people and books are our keepsake memories. All of the discussion leaders are our special friends.

I would like to applaud Seniornet for these discussions. Ginny, one time made applauding hands on her computer, if I had that ability, I would do it here. The computer, for me, is still very mysterious. I continue to learn how to handle the computer.

I didn't mean to write for so long. I just love Seniornet. I do want to mention Ann who so often is a part of the religious discussions. Ann makes the atmosphere secure and great!

Winsum -- "this is a place where I get to voice MY OPINION and no one cares.. . that's what's so nice about it. . . " I'll agree with that.

Hats, you said it all in your long post. Thanks. I miss Lorrie, too.

I love senior net and I love the books section, but some of the others tend to make me back off. Several years ago we had a lovely lovely Womens folder that discussed issues pertaining to women. Worked really well until some gentleman( I use the word loosely) decided he needed to come in post and post and tell us all exactly what we were supposed to think and then why allwomen did not understand the world. Sigh.. All of the women ended up leaving the site.. I guess he remained there to tell himself all about how he runs the world.

Another clue : The author has been mentioned right here very recently.

The Razor's Edge by Somerset Maugham

To Traude ~
Red Tent by Anita Diamant

Fine guesses of attentive readers.
This clue should do it :
The author is still concerned with the conditio humana.

Traude -Is it Dantes Inferno or Paradise Lost?

Judy

One more : This book too features the author's alter ego.

isn't it common for the protagonist to be an alter ego of the author? I was thinking of Eco's book about the strange flame of Queen whatsherface.

Great Hats - you said it so well...!

Just one more: The alter ego's name is Zuckerman

Human Stain by Philip Roth

Hello Bookies

I am struggling with Don Quixote. However I am still reading but miles behind everyone else! I have a determination to finish it if to just say "I read Don Quixote!"

It does not help that I had to get out in the garden and take one of my rare bursts of energy and clean up the garden for winter. I have spent a week out there cleaning up ready for the very wet weather we have in Auckland in winter. Its already started! Three lows in as many days!

I do love hearing opinions from everyone here on books but sometimes we get the odd person who is convinced their opinion is the only one and can get quite forceful about it. I have actually left one or two discussions because of this. I would add the books were not about religion or politics. To me books are like paintings. Different people see different things in the works. Its interesting to hear these different takes on a work.

Hats- yes I still remember Lorrie - she was so kind to me and such a knowledgeable bookie. A lovely lady. I have cyber met so many lovely people over the last 6 years in SN I really do regard so many as friends. Its so hard when we lose them. We lost Katie Sturtz this week from the Michigan discussion.

I got the book "Churchill" ( a biography) by Roy Jenkins yesterday. Its a very fat book but I am very interested in that period of history. My country was still a dominion of Britain at that time. I did not agree with a lot of his decisions but one cannot deny he was a complex and charismatic person.

Its a grey wet old day here in the City of Sails. A good day to curl up with a quilt on the sofa and do some serious reading!

Carolyn

I remember Lorrie well. What a wonderful person she was and what good discussions she led. I never met her, but I too felt like I knew her.

Carolyn, I agree with what you said. Some people start an argument just to have an argument. I don't know why they get such a kick out of it, but don't you go away, please, just scroll on by anyone who seems opinionated or overly argumentative. And don't worry about getting behind in Don Q. We are still moving at a snail's pace. You can catch up. Do you have a modern translation? Grossman reads wonderfully.

Maryal

MIPPY - you did it ! Congratulations !!! I'm so happy !!!

Zuckerman was Philip Roth's alter ego in earlier novels as well. Roth's latest book, "Everyman", was highy praised by Nadine Gordimer in last Sunday's NYT Book Review. I haven't read the book yet, therefore don't know whether Zuckerman speaks again.

Clues not given :
the author complained before, a reference to ("Portnoys Complaint");
he was married to a famous actress (Claire Bloom).

Now you are up, MIPPY !!

Many thanks to all who participated.
T

Hats, that's the most beautiful thing I ever read, makes us all feel good, many thanks!

Mippy, congratulations! Good Pick a Plot, Traude!! Mippy you're up next, I can only do about a clue a day in the heading so just FYI they may not get up there instantly, but I like the dual aspect of this!

Great discussion here of what makes a good book discussion, this is a great group. I think it's always disconcerting to feel strongly about a book and have somebody else feel equally strongly the opposite way, but as Hats says we're not all the same: that's OK. I think different opinions expand your horizon and make you think whether or not you want to. Hopefully as Hats also says we all learn something. I agree with Deems about argumentative, confrontational people, thank goodness we don't have many here.

I am very sorry to hear of Katie Sturtz's death. She came to the first ever Book Gathering in NYC in 1998 and was a terrific sport and kind and cheerful person. I am very sorry.

Oh I had a BLAST today at the B&N and Stephanie, I got the Devil Wears Prada, it was funny, the young woman leading me to the section (because they are not allowed to POINT in that bookstore) and I were chatting as we went along and I said "I hear it's chick lit, but it's not, is it, it's a true story," and she just stood up straighter and gave me a school marm's look and said "NOTHING wrong with THAT!" hahahaa

So I did some major backtracking, espousing Sophie Kinsella (who I DO love, so cute) as my fav!

You got me in HOT water, Stephanie! hahahaa or my mouth did, not sure which!

One of my Mobile Meals ladies today was reading something she said she could NOT put down. I thought I would remember the title but I don't. I thought I would remember the author but I didn't see anything by her in B&N, something like Jan Carsley? Does that or Carley ring a bell? Cover showed a submarine off of NYC?

Pedln I was reading An Ordinary Man last night by Paul Rusesabagina of Hotel Rwanda, and now I see you mentioning it here, it is simply searing. I am very sorry to hear he is being besmirched, a disgrace, I taped him in an interview and he was tremendously impressive, he does not look like Don Cheadle but he's just..you can see how he did what he did. That might make a book discussion to end all book discussions, what courage the man had!!!!!

I'm finding very interesting the literate names that David Austin gives his English roses, have any of you noticed? I have his book and it's quite fey. I might bring one or two here to see if any of you recogize them, right off the bat (I didn't). For instance what book is Wildeve from?!?

He has a pretty yellow one called Jude the Obscure hahahaa but Wildeve, which I did buy, a pretty pink full old timey looking rose is from literature? Anybody know?

For a wee bit of a grin today, here is a story about a visit I made to the library not so long ago. I saw two very elderly ladies with two big bags full of books leaving the library. I glanced into the bags and the books were all modern Mills and Boons. My mind really went into overtime. The books are very explicit these days and I wondered what these dear old souls made of all the "hot" scenes. The librarian said they always borrowed Mills and Boons.

Carolyn

HATS--Your post almost made me weepy. And I am definitely not the weepy or sentimental sort. It was so well written and heart-felt.

Thank You.

I have to say that my daughter is now a librarian at a very large library which is also an academic library. She has brought me home some really interesting books. She and I have the same taste in fiction and non fiction. Its so handy to phone my daughter if I cannot get out and say "Can you pick me up a book tomorrow?" Nicky is back at work after quite a few years at home being a full time Mum. She eased into her job last year as a casual in the library system but now she is on the Permanent staff. She loves reading just like her Mum.

carolyn

Carolyn--You are lucky. My daughter and I also frequently agree about books. I almost always take a look at anything she suggests. Sometimes she even gives me a book and says, "Read this; you're going to want to teach it." That's how I began teaching Blindness.

HATS, I agree with every word in your moving post. Thank you.

I met Lorrie years ago in WREX, when its domicile was AOL's Seniornet. She told me that a group of people had seceded from AOL to form our nonprofit SN.org and led me into the fold with great patience. It changed my life, quite simply. Lorrie was a dear friend, a gentle, remarkable human being.

CAROLYN, I agree with DEEM's # 861. Don't be discouraged and, please, don't give up on DQ. I find myself still trailing. What counts is that I'm THERE and plan to stay. I'll post about translations there.

Traude ~
Thanks!
Also Thanks to Ginny for setting up this game!

Oh, well, I'll just jump right in without a lot of deliberation

Here's the first clue:

Was there a strange obsession?

Hooray for the people who withdrew from AOL to form Senior Net. What a vision they had!

carolyn

Of Human Bondage by Maugham?

That was about one man's obsession but I am probably wrong. It has to be a strange obsession. Mmmm?

Carolyn

I think the new seniornet had only just begun here when I looked in and became hooked. Was that about 1993? or earlier. Anyhow its a major part of my life as are all of you. seeya, claire

for obsession and got a whole page full of offerings. nope I'm not choosing any of them but I thought it was interesting that google had so many.

google on obsession

I want to comment on the wonderful post about SeniorNet by Hats. Thank you for sharing that testimony to the richness of our online community, Hats. And others have built on that message, posting your thoughts about your willingness to share ideas and perspectives that are important to you with others here on our web site.

I'll also share a brief chronology of SeniorNet highlights. It is at http://www.seniornet.org/php/default.php?PageID=7865.

SeniorNet, the nonprofit organization, started in 1986. We developed a small online community, even from the beginning: first on the Delphi Network and then on America Online. SeniorNet Headquarters started this web site in late 1995 and implemented the discussions in 1996. You're right that some of the first people to join our web site and lead discussions here were from our America Online site. But not all. Our web site has grown into a large, mature community of which you all can be proud.

I hope that you will continue to share your experiences of SeniorNet here and help us create a fuller interactive history of our online community.

"Wildeve, which I did buy, a pretty pink full old timey looking rose is from literature? Anybody know?"

Ah, yes, a very clever designation for a fully pink old-timey rose, Wildeve. For Damon Wildeve, the lady-killer in Return of the Native also by Hardy. An early "modern novel" in the Hemingway/Faulkner sense of Modern.

In my thinking one cannot read enough Hardy. I have not returned to him in years, it must be time.

Kleo

HATS: I loved your comments. You have a way of expressing what we all fell but cannot express.

Hats, you have such a way with words. I got all teary-eyed while reading your testament. Seniornet Bookies are my kind of people, too. Thank you.

I couldn't agree more and now I know when it was , about ten years ago when I discovered this place in the world. I love it. . . claire

I looked into WOMEN SHARING and the only people there were you and me and that was in february. Whoever HE was. He's given up and the coast is clear. I think I'll go back and subscribe again. It was nice wasn't it. . .Claire

Dear Hats, thank you for your beautiful and much needed words about SeniorNet and what it does for all of us. Your advice is perfect --- hack it out and learn. And we all should be grateful that we can still do that.

HATS: Your post was perfect. A wonderful description of SeniorNet. Thank you.

A new Curious Minds discussion will start May 16. I show it on the following chart which can be found by clicking on the link in the second paragraph of the heading. The discussion will be Read Only until May 16 but you can start reading the material now if you want.

Title	Author/Source	Type	Starts
Join any of our Current, Coming and Proposed discussions
Don Quixote	Cervantes	Book Club Online	Apr. 15
The Professor's House	Willa Cather	Fiction	May 15
Origin of Species	Charles Darwin	Nonfiction	Ongoing
Rembrandt's Eyes	Simon Schama	A Page A Day Book Club	Ongoing
The Story of Civilization	Will & Ariel Durant	Nonfiction	Ongoing
Our Drawing Board lists the future discussions still in the planning stage.
Share your thoughts, opinions and memories in our Op Ed Discussions
Immigration	Curious Minds	Nonfiction	May 16

Dear Hats ~
Your comments on SeniorNet reflect, in such well chosen words, my sentiments, too.
In addition to the stimulating book discussions and other discussions, including geographical groups, I've
been so lucky to be one of the participants in Ginny's Latin classes.

SeniorNet is my campus away from home, although technically I'm at home when I'm here. For us seniors who would not get out and go to a real college campus to take courses, participating in SeniorNet is true privilege.
Thanks to all who make SeniorNet discussions possible!

The post by Hats was #845, if anyone missed it.
Look back ...through the posts ... in happiness ... (apologies to ...)

The Women Sharing is one I have belonged to, but the womens page that was invaded was much earlier than that. I would judge maybe 2001 or so.. I like Women Sharing , but there are not many posts as you said. I think it started with thinking about reading books written by women about women, but I could be wrong. I must tell you that down here in Florida, Outback Steakhouse is running a radio commercial for Mother Day. It is ( I think) an old Australian drinking song.. Starting out with a chorus singing.."Everything I am is due to Mum Mum... and goes from there . Makes me laugh each time I hear it.. Nice male chorus doing the singing.

MIPPY, are we looking for fiction or nonfiction? Is either in our archives? Thankyou

Scootz!! Speak to us, that reminds me of Goober in the old Andy Griffith Show, imitating Cary Grant, hahaah do you remember that one? Judy Judy Judy!!

You are worrying me there! hahahaa

Thank you, Mippy, that's very kind of you and a super testament to SeniorNet's ability to offer opportunities in learning!

I guess The Haunting of Hill House by Shirley Jackson!

Oh good for you Kleo, you got Wildeve *scroll down a little bit from Hardy. I have one on the porch and as my desktop and it's stunning but nothing beats Tournament of Roses, I really enjoy growing roses in pots.

At any rate, here's another one, can anybody guess where they got this name? (NO fair looking up: think and see if it rings a bell) Scepter d'Isle. Got that one at Home Depot: another pretty one.

Marjorie, super job with that chart, thank you for putting it here, Barbara says that President Bush will talk tonight on Immigration issues and we here on the 16th (Tuesday) will be talking about it, too, click on Curious Minds in Marjorie's chart above or look for the link in the heading and you can be ready by reading all of the links first!

Also let's not forget to be ready for the Miss Marple broadcast, in June, for our PBS Program Clubs next show, all you mystery fans. I can't imagine Geraldine McEvan in that role, it's going to be interesting.

This pick-a-plot is in the fiction archives.

There are some good guesses, but are not this book.

I'll put up another hint in a while ...

SCOOTZ, I am on tenterhooks here, waiting for that post to make it's way thru' the ether. If all else fails, e-mail me. Three tries, it must be important, right?

Babi

Clue Number 2:

Who can recall the quirky con man?

OMgosh!! LOL I had a colonoscopy done this morning. (too much info, I know) but guess I was still recovering from my anesthetic a bit. Had no idea those posts went up. It's been a very rough week since I couldn't take any of my pain meds for my RA going into this test for the past week. Lots of pain and not much sleep. Tried posting and then went to take a nap.

Anyhoo babi, I only wanted to say this- you posted that you understood me re my politics/religion opinion. I wanted to thank you for that and I know that you know it was nothing personal. . Now, you're all disappointed I bet.

I need some sleep- lots of it.

We have a series of Miss Marples mysteries on Wednesday nights on Prime TV going here at the moment. I enjoyed the last one. The actress doing Miss Marples is very good on this BBC series.

Carolyn

Ginny,

It's called 'Sceptre d'Isle?' There is a very famous line about a 'Sceptre'd Isle' that I can think of. These are all David Austin roses? He uses nicely familiar characters and all, then. I'll have to go look, it's entertaining.

Kleo

Take notes on those Miss Marple mysteries, Kiwi! Joan Grimes is going to lead a discussion of the new series in June.

Scootz, bless your heart! What's RA?

Carolyn, quick, who is it that plays Miss Marple on this series, I bet you it's the same one!? Let me run look at the show Joan G put up here and copy over her link and you can see, you probably have newer episodes than we do (we get the older ones) but we can all get the books, and talk about her portryal, hold on!

Ginny

RA= rheumatoid arthritis

OH, very sorry!! I hope you are all right otherwise as well!!!!! Now if you'd said Uncle Arthur I probably would have gotten it!

Carolyn, here you go, here's the link Joan G put up, she's in Ireland and can't do anything till the 22nd of May but this one is called Sleeping Murder: does any of this look familiar?

GINNY: yes, but I can't remember the name. I think it's the one that Christie wrote and squirreled away to be published after her death, as she did with the last Poirot. (but no particular reason why the Marple should be the last, unlike the Poirot).

Yes, it's Geraldine McEwan who is playing Miss Marple in the current series. She's good,although she overdoes her twinkle -- she's always twinkling at someone.

The first set is all the favorites and best: Murder at the Vickerage, What Mrs. McGillicuddy Saw, The Body in the Library, Murder is Announced. They changed them to all be set after WWII. And stupidly given Miss Marple a past lover. But they're pretty good.(Murder is announced somehow lost its humor, but the others were good).

I'm a Christie purest, and don't like the changes. Especially changing the one with middle-aged Tuppence into a Miss Marple. Ugh! I'll probably be the grouch in the discussion, but I'll be there.

Are you guys reading the Trollope still? I watched half of the BBC prdouction this week. It's fabulous.

I love how the coloring on the new Miss Marple - has that orangy glow - and you are so right she does twinkle and twinkle and twinkle - the murders seem to take second place to all the apprehension over the sleuthing towards 'who done it'...

Modeling the latest in Puppy hair-fashions

I am terrible! I did not take note of the actors in the first program I saw. The one I saw was about a murder on a train which was near a country village in England. Miss Marples close friend who was travelling to see her old friend witnessed the murder from another train which was running on parallel tracks alongside the train she was in. It was a very complicated plot. I enjoyed it however. It did appear to be set after the Second World War. The murder involved a woman being strangled in a private compartment.

Carolyn (who is listening to a very good thriller at the moment will pass on the name and author if the whole book proves to be as good as CD 1.)

I have just received an email from Judy Laird saying --

Miss Martha was hit and killed by a car tonight.

That sweet puppy will surely be missed.

Miss Martha was hit by a car and killed this afternoon.

Oh no ! JUDY, I am so very, very sorry. Only a few minutes ago I saw her sweet picture ! How sad.

That's terrible! I just saw her for the first time half an hour ago, and now this! I'm so sorry for you. She seemed so sweet--thanks for sharing her picture with us.

Oh dear - sorry - oh how sad...

Judy: I'm so very sorry. What a sweetie in the picture.

Oh dear, very cute Miss Martha is no longer with us. I hate it when dogs die. I measure my life in the dogs I've had.

Ginny, could that rose's name come from the often quoted but not by me poem that has "this sceptered isle, this England." at the end of it?

Sorry brain not working tonight. I think it's Shakespeare.

Henry V?

Maybe one of the other Henry plays?

I'm getting further away from it rather than closer.

Drat.

Deems

Had to look it up because i knew it was Shakespeare. I was nowhere near the right play though. It comes from Richard II:

This royal throne of kings, this scepter'd isle,
This earth of majesty, this seat of Mars,
This other Eden, demi-paradise;
This fortress built by Nature for herself
Against infection and the hand of war;
This happy breed of men, this little world,
This precious stone set in the silver sea,
Which serves it in the office of a wall,
Or as a moat defensive to a house,
Against the envy of less happier lands;
This blessed plot, this earth, this realm, this England,

Now I can go to bed in peace.

Maryal

Oh, I just love that! Thrilling! Sends chills down my spine.

Deems and Marni--I ran across that passage in an English History course in 4th or 5th grade, and it sent chills down my spine too. I bet generations of Englishmen have been inspired by it, for good or ill.

How terrible about Miss Martha. I am so glad we can have fences here in our neighbourhood and gates too. I have a dog yard that I can let the dogs out in to go toilet and it has a lock that can only be reached from inside. No-one can accidentally let them out and I can put them out without supervison into that yard. One of our friends left the front gate open in the main yard and Penny got out, It was only my vigilence all the time that saved her before she got on the road, I know my heart was pumping as I ran to get her. I was really angry as our friend knew I had the two dogs and I ask all my friends to shut the gate every time they enter or leave.

Its terrible when we lose our pets. I am so sad for Pat. I just thought this morning how sweet she was.

Carolyn

JudyLaird, I am so sorry. I just happened to see Miss Martha's beautiful photo. I wanted to say she is adorable. The name is sweet too. I can't believe it.

Ginny and Deems, That Shakespearean piece is lovely. No matter what culture, I think Shakespeare can pass over it and hit at the heart. Deems, now I am weepy.

Judy, pets are our family. I love dogs and cats. I wish we could roll back time and bring Miss Martha back.

Judy: I am sorry about Miss Martha. Adorable picture of her.

Miss Martha had such an intelligent look, it seemed she was ready to say something. Judy I am so sorry...

JoanK - I too am most fond of Miss Marple; how could they put her in Tuppence shoes, they are so different. A. Christie had such a sense of observation that each description can readily be seen by the reader. She knew all the frailty of human nature and found the right words to describe it. What are the titles of the last two books you mentionned? Bubble

JudyLaird ~
My heart goes out to you ... how very, very sad to lose your beloved dog.

Judy, I also have a shih tzu. He is my "heart dog". I know that your heart is broken for something so tragic as this to happen. Please accept my sincere sympathy. :_(

Oh dear, Judy, I am so sorry, that is such a shame. I'm glad to see all the messsages here from people who understand because I know how attached you were to little Miss Martha, so sorry!!!

Deems, you are a marvel and you are right and I was wrong! It IS from John of Gaunt's speech in Richard II, nothing to do with Henry V, I think I have Henry V on the BRAIN! and thank you for printing the entire speech, is that not beautiful!?! Isn't this Shakespeare's 400th anniversary or something? I love the History plays and yes, you are dead right: Scepter'd Isle (which Home Depot misspelled on the label) is gorgeous? I like David Austin, (which I've also been misspelling). I like what he's trying to do: get the old world look (which he has certainly achieved) on modern strong disease resistant reblooming large roses, he's done a lot for the world of horticulture (and no this is not a commercial, I just appreciate him).

Carolyn, I remember that plot, I'm listening to a book of Christie's now, it starts out with a man on a train again, the train stops and he gets off at the station, goes to buy a newspaper and when he returns it's gone! The station master says it was not a regular stop and so (but it's really eerie) when he catches the local commuter, the nice old lady (I guess we're all in that state now) tells him she thinks there's a murderer loose in the village and she's off to Scotland Yard, it's really good. I won't go farther (like the book is not probably 60 years old but it seems I never read it), but I am enjoying it.

Barbara, so good to hear Geraldine McEwan is good in the part, now we MUST watch, she's not as old as some of the other actresses. We must give her a fair shot, too!

But I loved Joan Hickson (as did Agatha Christie) in the Miss Marple plot, she herself was in her 80's when she did them, the thing I like best about her was that she decided she would not do any more of them at 89, didn't want to be "typecast." Boy what a spirit! hahahaa

I really like listening to Agatha Christie, who wrote hers pretty much out loud, that is she'd pace and talk to herself and get the dialogue worked out that way. Maybe we need to do an "appreciation discussion" of some of these old favorites we've been talking about, reread one of each...

Our May 15th reading of The Professor's House will begin on Monday, the text is online, it's about the midwest of America in the '20's, and we have quite a few people from that area or who have lived in that area here on SN, so it will be a super kick off to the summer, you all come, if you like. We're currently discussing rhubarb recipes!!

I am so sorry about Miss Martha. She looks like a real cuties. I know how strict I am about not letting the dogs out without a lead because I know they would run right to the road. They both love to ride in the car and think all cars are for them.

I am so enjoying my new book The English Roses by David Austin (as you can tell) and the names he's given these flowers are so fun. He's got, in addition to the two we've shown here, tons of them with literary references, like:

Brother Cadfael

Falstaff

Cordelia

Noble Antony

Tess of the d'Urbervilles

The Dark Lady

William Shakespeare 2000

Mistress Quickly (from Henry V)

Lochinvar (we must read Walter Scott)

Prospero

Christopher Marlowe

Pegasus

Blythe Spirit

Sweet Juliet

A Shropshire Lad by A.E. Houseman

The Pilgrim from The Canterbury Tales

Mayor of Casterbridge

Perdita

Othello

Fair Bianca

Cressida

Chaucer

I am sure you recognize most of those but there are STILL, believe it or not, references to literature not so obvious.

For instance, here's another one, now don't look this up, but can you say offhand who Leander was? That's the name of not only a rose but an entire GROUP of roses, does "Leander" ring any bells?

Do the names match the style of the roses? Leander used to swim the Hellespont to see the beautiful Hero, so I suppose this would be a grand, heroic rose. (I always have trouble keeping the lovers straight--you'd think Hero would be the man.)

But what about the Mayor of Casterbridge? He was a harsh, gloomy character, subject to moods of black despair, who managed to alienate or betray just about everyone who loved him or might have loved him. What's the rose like?

Oh well done!! I agree with you on the names, Hero and Leander of Greek mythology, ALWAYS get those two mixed up, when I can remember them, that is. Good question, I'll go find both those roses (no use putting David Austin's website links here for photos, it always defaults to the home page) and bring them here!! Well done!

Here's Leander, scroll down, it's gorgeous and here's what David Austin says about it:

This is one of the first roses of our Leander Group and the one after which the group was named. It is not the most beautiful of the English Roses but it forms an excellent, very vigorous and colourful shrub which thrives almost anywhere—a fact that makes it very useful. Its leaves are small to medium in size, of rosette shape and held in sprays. Their colour is deep apricot. The foliage is shiny, disease-resistant and of modern appearance.

Named after the legendary Greek lover.

Here is what he says about The Mayor of Casterbridge: sroll down

Close to an Old Rose, both in flower and leaf. Cup-shaped flowers of a pure soft pink with a lighter reverse. Vigorous, upright growth. A light, fruity Old Rose fragrance.

Interesting? Maybe he liked the Mayor? You'd think he'd have picked one of the almost black reds for this, like Othello and Falstaff and William Shakespeare 2000, but he didn't!

Wow there are even more in his list of "old friends, loth to let these go" but they apparently don't do well for one reason or another. He's got the very romantically named Bow Bells, but for our purposes:

Wise Portia

Wife of Bath

Troilus

The Squire

The Reeve]

The Prioress

The Nun (I am assuming these last 4 are from Canterbury Tales?)

And a couple of others I'm not sure of, I'll ask them here from time to time!

Ginny,

Those roses are beautiful. Wow!

Ginny, I kind of like the Mayor, too. There is a 2001 television movie of it available from Netflix in which Ciaran Hinds does a magnificent job of bringing out the Mayor's character. I saw it before I read the book, and when I did read it, I thought Hinds had gotten it exactly right. (There is an older, 3-disc version that I haven't seen.)

Judy L -- I just heard about Miss Martha and am so sorry. She was such a cutie.

Hint Number 3 in the Pick-a-Plot Game:

Do you know which southern state is key in the adventure?

Lovely roses, but the Leander looked pink to me in the picture. My only roses are two miniatures, a rose and a yellow. The yellow started out with a bang with the first warm weather. I counted 14 blooms on that tiny bush. If they had a name, I didn't know it.

Babi

Mippy, southern + key, is it Florida?

Is it "Absalom, Absalom by William Faulkner

Good guess, Mrs Sherlock,
Yes, it is Florida.

No, Hats, sorry, that's not it.

In case anyone is wondering about the Florida guess,

Hint Number 3 is in post #930.

So sorry to hear about Ms Martha. I know that she was your little companion in your many car trips around the city.

Kiwi

Judy does have fencing around her yard for her dogs. I wonder how it happened?

GINNY, the roses are all exquisite, one more beautiful than the next. Thank you for the great pleasure you've given us.

Happy Mother's Day to all.

Ann - As I said someone left my gate open wonder if thats what happened with Miss Martha. I have heard also of friends little dogs bolting out the front door if the fence is only round the back door and back yard. It has been my one fear - the road. I am paranoic about the whereabouts of my two all the time. I think my kids get fed up with me always making sure they are indoors if we are.

Carolyn

I'm so sorry to hear about Miss Martha.

I love the roses. I know who Fair Bianca is -- my mother was named after her. She is the "good" sister in "The Taming of the Shrew". My mother hated the name, She got teased by all the other kids, and anyway Fair Bianca was a mealy-mouthed goody-goody -- dutifully subservient to her man. Not my mother's style at all. She made Pat and me promise we wouldn't name any of our children Bianca.

But still, two hours short of Mothers Day, I can't help posting a picture of Fair Bianca in her honor. I hope she's looking down and laughing.

FAIR BIANCA

OH! Judy! I am so sorry to hear of Miss Martha.

Ginny, Beautiful Rose,

would that she were. . .mothers. . been there done that and so has mine although I think she could have done other. . .of course I was/am a superb . . what was that word? MUTHE claire.

Ah Joan! That is SO sweet!! What a nice memory and tribute. I love that, thank you for that and thank all of you for the nice remarks on the "Literary Roses."

Joan, I especially like the "with an unusual heliotrope note" for the rose Fair Bianca, I bet she IS laughing!

What a nice way to remember mothers on Mother's Day!

My grandmother was named Arsinoe, which means apparently Water Nymph in Greek. Her mother was not Greek, but she was well read and romantic in nature. Heck she had 12 children I guess she thought she could name them what she chose. My grandmother, who was born in the 1800's, hated the name which in the South came to be pronounced (and for all I know this is how you say it in Greek) "ar SIGN a" Her friends called her Sina as in SIGH na. She once told me if I ever named a child after her she'd haunt me. Ahahhaa But looking back on it those old names seem unusual and somehow quaint now. (I always thought it was better than her sister's Olga (which I think is an ugly name, but strangely enough, Olga was the beautiful sister) and Deutzie, (I guess for Deutsia?) but her sister Annelise I think had a beautiful name.

Well am waiting for the sun to come up because I THINK I have killed all of my roses on the porch (nice Mother's Day, huh?) with a potent new chemical (you no longer have to spray roses, but it helps to read the directions on the bottle, sometimes??) Yesterday Sceptered Isle threw all of its beautiful blossoms on the ground in protest, just THREW them off, and Garden Party decided to try to do the same with its stems. We shall see, it's hard to see them at 5 am hahahaa

But HERE's a photo, I finally got my hands on the newspaper article about Patwest and this will gladden all hearts, this article takes up ¾ of the page of the Lifestyles section of her paper and I had thought the photo was 5x7, I was wrong, it's 6 x 8 1/4 and our own Books & Culture Enrichment Center Page is (and you can always see IT by clicking on the black button on top of every screen on SN which says Books & Culture) is also repeated in the article and IT is 5 inches long itself: a beautiful job!

(The photo is almost large enough in real life to read her STICKY NOTES!! WHAT is she saying about US? Hahaha)

Happy Mother's Day! Remember the best advice your mother gave you in Ginger's Holiday Traditions discussion on the main menu of SeniorNet!

Thats our Pat. Got to meet her at the bookies winter beach trip and enjoyed it very much. It is lovely and cool and beautiful today in central Florida. Our sons are coming over with families and we will all go out to a lovely brunch in a beautiful setting. Now if only the four year old grandson will behave like a human, the day will work.

Wonderful photo, Pat!! Finally the online part of SN is getting some press and Pat is such a wonderful representative of all of this online community!!

Unusual old names...My maternal grandmother was Arena Frost Kinsey. She was called "Frost" by friends and family. I never heard anyone ever use her first name. She named her daughters what I consider unusual names. My Aunt was Zerna, my mother Nova Audrey (always called Audrey by her family.)

jane

HAPPY MOTHER'S DAY
To Daughters, Mothers, Grandmothers
and Soon-to-be Grandmothers

Happy Mothers Day !!!

Hint #4 in pick-a-plot

Would you call this book non-fiction?

To be clear: the book is in the SeniorNet Fiction Archives,
but there might be a difference of opinion.

Happy Mother's Day to all.

Pat, glad to see you in your "natural habitat" - although you looked great to me out in New Mexico.

If I e-mail you that photo John took of us at Shiprock, can you add it to the Book Family? I think I got it sized down somewhat.

Oh do. I just got my laptop back that had all the pictures on it.

Happy Mothers Day America!

NZ and Aus had their day yesterday. Britains day is called Mothering Sunday and its not the same date as all of ours.

I had a lovely day. Visits from all the children except the one who does not live in Auckland City. He had sent a big card and some money to spend on myself. SIL Ian came by proxy for my daughter with Brooke and Grace (Nicky was working at the Library) I got new Loppers and secateurs - I wanted those as I have worn out my old ones with all the chopping and pruning I have to do here. Graham and Karen came with their two little boys and flowers and a card. Then later in the afternoon Vanessa came and we went off to choose a new garden cart which was her present to me. She also bought me some pansies and three new roll necked long sleeved Ts for winter.

We loaded all the purchases into the garden cart and wheeled it into the coffee shop next to the mega store where we had been shopping and we had coffee. One woman exclaimed she was going to buy one of the carts to use to carry goods from the car to their beach house. She thought it was a great tool. We also bought my friend Ruth Mothers day presents of potted plants as her one and only child was in the UK and would not be visiting on Mothers day. We had a bit of a job getting the cart into Vanessas tiny hatch back Honda but a veteran of many household shifts she managed it. I was convinced there was no way it would fit.

After shopping we came home and had a special dinner of Fresh salmon and vegs for dinner and double chocolate to eat afterwards with our coffee.

It was a very nice day.

Hope all of you here have a very nice Mothers day.

Carolyn

both children living thousands of miles from here, so I remembered it as a personal experience to be shared with them and as it happens with others at my web site. . .not a public post but available to you as well as them at Motherhood - getting there

That was a lovely story Claire about your two children and motherhood.

I can remember being totally unprepared for motherhood even though I had helped to bring up four brothers and sisters. In fact when my son was born prematurely and I had two children barely a year apart on the way home in the car I looked at my son in my arms despairingly and thought I feel like running away! The next two years were the hardest work I think I have ever done in my life. There is nothing easy about being a mother of two children one of whom had acid reflux til he was 10 mths old and the other child with serious allergies and a compromised immune system resulting in severe asthma and ezcema. I have to say the first three years of their lives were a blur. I barely remember things like birthday parties or special outings. By the time my daughter was three I was coping well and was an expert in things like postural drainage which we had to do twice a day to remove the mucus from my daughters lungs. I was also pretty good at the breathing exercises we all did lying on the floor each morning and afternoon producing " tummy balloons" We began to go to Playcentre each day and I learned a lot about how children learn from play.

When my eldest child was five a brilliant doctor invented Intal a preventative for asthma. Our life changed dramatically. No longer emergency dashes into hospital almost every week. No longer did we have to divide our lives between hospital and home. I began to really enjoy my two children despite the fact my son was hyperactive. Nothing changed with the 5am risings because my son would not sleep any longer than 5am but life was very enjoyable as I watched the children becoming little people who were really good company.

I have to confess honestly that I am a much better grandparent than I was a mother. I know more about how their minds work and how to manage them without having to smack their butts now and again. I have been truly fascinated by these little people.

The best thing though about being now being the mother of adult children is that we can talk as friends. The greatest honor they have given me is to trust me above all others with the care of their children when it is needed. I feel privileged to think that my daughter trusts me to care for her two children who also have severe asthma, allergies and compromised immune systems. That to me is the greatest gift of all. To be entrusted with my childrens most precious possessions. I have been the first one to care for the newborns when their mothers have had to go for their six week checkups after the birth. Its such a privilege!

All in all I would not change a thing about the last 39yrs since I became a mother!

I hope you have all enjoyed this special day.

Carolyn

Mippy- Is the book "The Talented Mr Ripley" by Patrcia Highsmith?

Had a wonderful Mothers day with four genrations of our family. Hope everyone elses day was enjoyable. Far away son also sent flowers and a card. Far away Grand daughter telephoned. So it was good all around.

Judy

Good try, Judy, but not the book.

To repeat and to clarify,
This book is in our fiction archives.

Hint #4 questions whether that is the only classification possible.
A post by Mrs Sherlock correctly matched Florida to Hint #3.

Please watch for another hint, after breakfast.

In April, I attended an Elderhostel, The novels of Tony Hillerman, Navajo Culture, and 4 Corners Geology. What made it extra good -- was I got to meet Mary and John Zelle.

John and Mary Zelle on a geological field trip.

Love the Pick a Plot Questions, Mippy, what a puzzler!! And I have another "Literary Rose" for today!

PAT and MARY, love that one! Will you please, Pat, put it in the heading of the BookMobile where we show our Books Readers who meet all over the country? We hope to see some new ones from Montreal, too, as our Books Members form part of that huge group!

(Maybe you might consider doing one of your famous flash photo displays, too, in the heading in addition to posting the photo?) Thank you, that's super, Mary you and John look like Explorers Extraordinaire!!

Coming right back!

Carolyn, what a lovely Mother's Day, thank you for sharing it with us. There's a new rose called New Zealand which apparently is knocking people's socks off, have you heard of it? Does your climate allow for a lot of roses there?

Continuing on with the Literary Roses theme, some of these David Austin of course are named for people like Alan Titchmarsh, (you may remember him from the old British program about doing a garden in a few hours as a surprise? with Charley?) and Graham Thomas, some for other people connected with flowers, some for relatives, some for areas of England, some for historic figures (some of these most interesting) and, as we have seen, some for literary figures, and here's a new Literary Figure, now DON'T look this one up, anybody can do that, but off the top of your head who was Gentle Hermione and who wrote about her??!!??

I am absolutely drowning in The Poseidon Adventure. I hear they are playing the old movie now with Shelley Winters on tv in preparation for the new one coming out. The book is old and by Paul Gallico I can hardly believe my eyes, what else did he write? But it's spellbinding, you simply cannot put it down and when you're in it you're THERE, it's scary and...it's...I can't put it down. I'll sit down to read it and am transported into that boat to the point that it's scary. A very good escapist beach read, just canNOT put it down.

I want to see the new movie. In the book the Shelley Winters character is grossly obese, I did not think she was in the old movie. Love the book.

Scootz, you asked me way back there in some discussion if I were still reading the Trollope? I have to admit it's fallen by the wayside but I intend to pick it back up and I see the film is on DVD so I think in this case I'll order it from Netflix and see it that way first. I believe in this case I'll appreciate it more tho I usually don't like to do it in that order. Which way do YOU all prefer to do your film/ book viewing?

First read the book and THEN see the movie or vice versa?

I must admit I came to EF Benson via the PBS Series Mapp and Lucia. Even tho Geraldine McEwan (now in the Miss Marple series) has red hair, the original Lucia had black hair and she had it in those crimps, remember those from the 20's? Anyway, "Georgie" will always be to me Nigel Hawthorne (The Madness of King George, Yes, Minister) because of his portryal, and Mapp will always be Prunella Scales, so when I finally got my hands on the entire series and two sequels by Tom Holt in the manner of EF Benson, I was totally hooked. But even today when I read the originals over (they are perfect for bedtime reading or on trips) I "see" Hawthorne and Scales and McEwan. Hawthorne is also not the same type, he's not tall but he really did "Georgie" perfectly. The second set of the series was not shown in the US but I've got it, it's quite a bit stranger.

I saw Brideshead Revisited before I knew it WAS a book and so of course Jeremy Irons (how do you spell Jeremy?) will always be there in my head also.

But do YOU prefer to have YOUR characters fleshed out first or to flesh them out in your own mind and then see the movie?

Ginny, I absolutely will NOT view the film before I read.

Only time I ever read the book AFTER the film is if I didn't understand something in the film and hope that the book will illuminate it for me. This is a rare occurrence, however.

I also much prefer to read the book first. Ginny, in the case of "Brideshead Revisited", almost everyone was so perfectly cast for the part that they all were pretty much the way I had imagined them, and even the ones I didn't have a mental picture of looked right.

I prefer to read the book first, that's wehre the meat of the characterization is. It is part of the itelledtual puzzle, picturing it in my mind. The rich background details can become lost in the movie as I get caught up in the emotions. The first time I saw Star Wars I couldn't remember if there was a score! I guess the best illustration I can think of is reading T. E. Lawrence vs. seeing Lawrence of Arabia.

Hint #5 in Pick-a-Plot:
Do you think you could wade through a swamp to find a ghost?

... not me ... no matter how much I wanted to ...

Thanks, Pat, for putting up our picture. You did a good job - taking the picture, and posting it!

There are only two movies that I saw first.. The Shawshank Redemption.. I do not like Stephen Kings books, but once I saw the movie, I had to know what the book was like. It is actually a novella, but the movie was so very very true.. and the second was ( oh wow, a senior blank).. The Sean Penn movie from a few years ago. The movie was spectacular, but oh me, so was the book. A bit different, but still so compelling. Usually the book is so much better than the movie, but in both of these cases, they were both wonderful.

and discovered that i'm tired of "murder with a lot of gore - murder solved" mysteries!! Have had too many J.D. Robb, etc. lately. Guess i'm ready for the next Evanovich...LOL....

I've recently completed books by authors i heard about on SN: Susan Wiggs - The Ocean Between Us; Luanne Rice - Home Fires; Morris West - The Lovers. All enjoyable reading, not great, but the distracting kind of reading i need after reading some heavier non-fiction. My f2f group is reading Angry HOusewives Eat Bon-Bons for our next mtg, just got into it a little. I tend to be reading a non-fiction and a light fiction or mystery at all times. I need variety, you've all provided me w/ plenty of ideas. In fact, i'm counting on reincaration to get thru my list of "to be reads"

........jean

I have started reading The Virgin's Knot and it seems a good one. Anyone read it? It seems a good one to read after having read My Name is Red by Pamuk. This novel too is about Turkey and tells about carpet making.

I wonder if the answer is "the Orchid Thief"????

I've been told that the latest Evanovich is due out 20 June - just in time for our friend to bring it with her to our week at the beach. Yea!!!!!!!!!

Ginny roses grow well in Auckland but the humidity causes lots of black spot disease and mildew. You have to spray a lot so I only have a hardy Iceberg climber and a bush rose (Hallelujah) which is planted over my husbands ashes in the garden. I have to keep away from chemicals so roses are not very practical for me. The cities in NZ who have low humidity grow the most enormous roses. My Aunt who lives in Gisborne has roses the size of tea plates everywhere and she never sprays. I love the old fashioned fragrant roses which are not very common now as hybrids are all the fashion these days. Mum has a red velvety old fashioned rose growing alongside the front door. The smell is heavenly. My stepdad looks after this rose like it is a baby.

Carolyn

Orchid Thief by Susan Orlean.
Yes !!!
Joan Roberts is the winner!
Congratulations! You deserve an orchid!
Thanks to everyone who played pick-a-plot.

Susan Orlean, a writer for the New Yorker magazine, published this semi-true (hence fiction) account of her interactions with the people who search for rare orchids... including the ghost orchids of the Florida swamps. Some of them were con men, some of them were orchid addicts, many were really strange folks.
The movie made from the book, Adaptation, was really awful, IMO.
My orchid-growing friends in Florida and I all enjoyed this unusual book about her adventures.

as to the film or the movie first. sometimes a good storyis ruined for me by the writing, and I'mpretty visual anyhow so I get turned on by the movie as in Laurence of Arabia which was beautifully filmed and scored. I'm satisfied with that but if thr book were present I'd look an see if I liked the writing too. Another beautifully filmed book was the English Patient. more desert scenes. The old fashioned fiction writing bothers mme it's so different from my daily experience it's a distraction. A film is a straight on characterization of everyone done by wonderful actors and directors with music and for me often surpasses the presentation in a book. . . claire

He's uneven for me. I couldn't read his dark tower books at all but the green mile was great both movie and book which were pretty true to each other although the book I think had a touch of the unknown toward the end. I loved em both. Evanovich is always a charmer for me. I wonder if they will make movies of her work even though it's so extensive. They did of Louis L'Amour's mountain family . . . forget names, but very well done. Of course I'm a L'Amour freak. own a box full of his little westerns although the best writing is in the larger novels. . . claire

Congratulations, Joan Roberts!

Congratulations JOAN ROBERTS!

Way to go JOAN! Well done, Mipster! Now Joan will you please choose a title (if you like) from our Archives (link in heading) and ask a plot question (one per day only please) on it and see if you can Stump our Expert Readers here?

Nobody knows Gentle Hermione? And no it was not Harry Potter!

O.K. Here goes: Clue # 1

I can't swim, I'm afraid of water but I must buy a boat to get to my job.

Joan Roberts--The Shipping News?

I'll go with Hermione from The Winter's Tale. David Austin is obviously well-read in Shakespeare and the English classics, so any Shakespearean heroine would be a worthwhile guess. Ginny, you like soft pink rose with many petals, it seems.

Kleo

The English Patient was beautifully filmed. I saw it with friends who complained that it was too slow!! They don't know what slow is! There's a scene in the movie of the nurse playing hopscotch, which takes about 10 seconds. In the book, it's the first 60 pages. I never found out what the second sixty pages were -- I gave up.

Not even a question -- read the book first!! I like to watch movies, but I live to read. So much more depth is possible, and you enter the author's world in a totally different way.

I had a great mothers day too. I got flowers, chocolate, books, a poem, hugs, and Iwuvyou's. All my favorite things (In reverse order, of course). I even got an (imaginary) unicorn from my grandson. What more could I want?

You know books versus movies is the only place where we're asked to pick one over the other. The best movies tend to come from the best books. That they're not the same as the book is no discredit to the movie. The question is whether or not the movie is good, or even great.

I would never ever ever give up a lifetime of plays and great movies to only read books, no matter how much I love reading. Just like I would not give up looking at grains of grass in the wild in order to continue eating bread. They're two different things.

One of the most interesting combined literary/movie moments in my life was getting to meet one of my favorite Polish directors, introduced to our class by my favorite Nobel Prize winning poet, followed by a journey with the poet and director to the North American premier of the director's latest movie.

Each obviously treasured greatly the other's contribution to the arts. No one thought of asking them, "Which is better your poems, or your movies?"

It's not a choice we have to make. I like reading the book first, often, because I like to make my own characterizations. Sometimes I see an interesting movie, then read the book.

I like Harry Potter on the silver screen, but did not care for reading it at all--it would have required Anthony Burgess to pin my eyes open to read past the first chapter of the first book.

Kleo

Mother's day is pretty much a non-event around here. My husband announced many years ago that I'm not HIS mother, so he doesn't feel moved to do anything. My daughter always calls from Boston, my son in Santa Barbara sends flowers, and my son who lives nearby usually comes with us while we take my mother out for brunch, but he wasn't able to make it this year. It was pretty much like any other day.

I love Harry Potter books. They are especially good on audio. I have a friend who is usually a high brow reader but she too loves Harry Potter on audio especially like me! My grandkids think its cool to discuss Harry Potter and his exploits with their Granny.

Carolyn

Oh, Deems!! That was speedy indeed! You win!

and other fantasies. I've tried. really I have. . .just can't get into them the movie lookes like it should be interesting visually but isn't to me and I can't get interested in the principle characters. It was written originally for children . . .my child must be asleep. . . claire

Not about books but this was such a perfect day - the weather was similar to a day we usually get around the end of October when a norther pushes through - there was the cool strong breeze blowing all day - I had the garage door open - the front door open - all the windows open and best of all I wash and hung on the line the comforter, the sheets and even my pillows - all blowing in the wind - it was a delight -

My only appointment today was an inspection at 3: so I delighted in the day - cleaned up the rest of the twigs and branches that littered the yard from the storms over a week ago that took two of my trees -

In fact seeing the sun on the bare spot was not so bad - the other trees grew so that the spot is not so bare that the 102 we will have this summer should not scorch that part of the yard too badly.

The best part was enjoying a cup of hot coffee while standing in the sun and wind - I felt just so decadent...

Barbara--Good to hear about the good day. But drinking a cup of coffee is not decadent. Fifteen cups of coffee from Starbucks is decadent.

OK, now what do I do with the book thingie?

Have forgotten the rules.

I know I give clues but are they for some book we have read here on SeniorNet?

Barb - Northerlys down here are our hot winds and Southerlys are our icy winds blowing up from the Antarctic. Shows the difference in one end of the earth to the other. Its because we are upside down we are opposite in the wind and sun. We face North for maximum sun exposure and south facing is our shady side of the house.

Carolyn

hahaha Deems, yes, you choose a book from our Archives, that is that we have read on SeniorNet, (rules and link in heading in box, as are the clues) and then you form clues (one per day) about the plot and see if anybody can guess it, congratulations!! Boy that WAS fast!

Haha Kleo, I don't think I would form opinions on my personal taste in roses by what David Austin names his (how did you know it was pink?) But pink it is, and I do like pink roses, (and red ones and yellow ones and blends and white ones), here is Gentle Hermione (sroll down a little bit). He says that Hermione was the faithful wife of Leontes, King of Sicilia and mother of Perdita in Shakespeare's "The Winter's Tale." Good for you!

I'm just going thru his book, stopping at the less familiar names and references. I love his new book (The English Roses ). That photo actually does NOT look like the one in the book which is more globular and not sectioned, still.

Joan R, that was a GOOD 'un. I went away and thought, incredible plot for a book, what on earth is it, especially since I'm reading (and am now struggling thru the dark in the upside down Poseidon). Love that thing.

Great conversation here on Mother's Day, and books/ movies: which comes first. I hate to admit that sometimes I (I don't GO to the movies much to start with) don't even KNOW it was a book. For instance that last one that George Clooney did, on the double agent? THAT was from a book, I got the book, retired CIA agent or something, I have not had time to read it, but movies are an art too, as you know they say with the roaring lion symbol: ars gratia artis, and the buzz over Tom Hanks and the DaVinci Code is incredible. Apparently they stayed very close to the book, and they are playing the hype up to the point it's practically incredible, some woman, according to a breathless report on ET, said she had come from Australia to Cannes just to see it. THAT is ridiculous. Sorry.

Carolyn, we have blackspot here too that's why David Austin roses are so incredible, many of them don't blackspot. If the new chemical I bought does not kill them all outright, we may never need to spray again, it appears to be trying. Hahahaa

Also there are a couple of new roses, single and double called Knock Out which don't blackspot and I have to say even tho I don't like single roses, they are standouts in the garden, just draw your eye. They also do not need to have the old blooms cut off, they deadhead themselves (or you can snap them off), an incredible new line, there are several of them.

I am enjoying walking out on the terrace to the smell of roses, really enjoying container rose gardening, have now got one for the arch at the end of the terrace growing in a pot! We shall see what we see! (Why not? A rose is a rose is a rose, right?) If you don't kill them first.

But continuing with David Austin's literary roses names, here's one I never heard of: John Clare. Now who has heard of THAT name??~!??

On roses, before buying, it's best to ask somebody who is a member of the American Rose Society or whatever society is in your country, for the "rating." The ads promise bliss and joy but the "rating" delivers the truth and those with higher ratings provide much more pleasure in the long run. That said, I have bought some with lower ratings for nostalgia's sake, but you can depend on the higher ones to satisfy all the time, while waiting for the laggards to come thru.

Love all the book recommendations here, and thanks for the Paul Gallico additional books, wow, he's really got quite a range, Mrs. 'arris. Wow.

We have a new Curious Minds opened today (see chart link in heading) in which they will talk about the Immigration issue in the US, don't miss it!

So if writing a book (I liked your idea there Joan K about getting INTO the story more in the book) and making a film are both arts but of a different sort, then they are two different experiences entirely, then, and not intended to reflect on or illustrate the other. I guess…would you say the movie is more of a reflection? We must read The Lady of Shallot, I hope you will all join us then, talk about your reflections!

Now it's getting close to sum sum summertime, remember that one? I wonder if anybody has a MIDI of that one, and it's time to get out the Best Summer Reads! What constitutes a super summer read for YOU? I nominate The Poseidon Adventure, no matter where you are, when you read that thing, you're taken away immediately: you're on an upside down cruise liner, your own reality receded. I have had people call me in the middle of it and say, oh did I wake you up? Hahahaa YEAH, I'm on the bottom of a ship! Makes you think, trying to visualize an upside down staircase. I like my summer reads (or beach books as they call them tho it's been a LONG time since I hit the beach in the summer, cellulite you know) to be.....something I can plunge into that's completely different and escapist. Nice sub thread of the characters, too. (HUH! Interesting thing here, I can't find a MIDI of "It's sum sum summertime, " but I find Amazon and a lot of others TALKING about that one, quoting that exact phrase, do any of you remember it?)

Summertime, summertime, sum sum summertime, (repeated)
It's time to head straight for the hills,
It's time to…(what?) live and dance…or something thrills?
Come along and have a ball, a regular free for all.

So we'll go swimming every day,
No time to work just time to play
If your folks complain you say,"it's summertime!"

Sum day….er some day there will be a quiz show where She Who Remembers Lyrics of Long Forgotten Songs will be rewarded! Hahaha

That one and Rock the Boat ("our love is like a ship on the ocean…etc.") I remember very well, what? Early 60's? Late 50's? (You DO realize that was 50 years ago, does it not seem like yesterday?)

That's a good point Joan K raised, too. Which DO you get more into, a movie or a book? Which has the greatest effect on YOU?