Mystery Club ~ 1997/1998 Export

Yes, I Love A Mystery. I remember when I was growing up there was a radio show called I Love a Mystery. I think that was when I began enjoying a mystery story. Do you remember the first mystery that you read? I do. It was Death of a Peer by Ngaio Marsh. I have been an avid mystery reader ever since. I know that many of you read mysteries too. Please join us here in I Love a Mystery,our mystery book club.

Your host and discussion leader is Joan Grimes

Sudden Prey

by John Sandford

Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist John Camp has written seven best-selling novels under his popularpseudonym John Sandford. A masterful thriller filled with rich human drama and razor-sharp suspense, Sudden Prey is his most chilling in the Prey series. When his bank-robbing wife is gunned down during a shoot-out with the cops, Dick LaChasie swears revenge on each officer involved in her death. Now Deputy Police Chief Lucas Davenport feeels powerless as LaChaise mounts a campaing of terror. The husband of one officer is brutally murdered. The wife of another executed at work. As the tension mounts, Davenport knows he must stop the madman before he turns on Davenport's loved ones.
Discussion Points
1. This is a book that deal with violence and violent people. What reaction did you experience from reading this story?
2. Did Sandford make these characters seem real?
3. Do you think the police over reacted to the bank robbery in killing Candy LaChaise and Georgie LaChaise? Were the reactions of the husband and brother and his friends realistic?
4. What was your reaction to the bad copy, Andy Stadic? Were there too many convenient co-incidences that allowed him free reign?
5. The main police characters were Lucas Davenport, Chief of the Homidcide Division and Rose Marie Roux, Chief of Police. Were the actions of these characters in the story realistic?
6. Having read this story, would you read more John Sandford stories?

Welcome Everyone.

As we begin our mystery book club we must decide how we will choose the books that we will read.

One suggestion is that one person may volunteer to choose the first book. This person will pick someone to choose the next book to be read.

I would like to have a book chosen in time to begin reading by the first of February. Now add your suggestions for choosing a book.

Joan

JOAN: Thanks for this site...

Mystery Books are one of the favorite type books to read... (Historical my first)... I am fond of Agatha Christie Novels and any of the Sir Cronin Doyle Books...

Now that I have said that... Those are of the Classics... so will abide by any of the newer authors. Since I have not been looking for a good mystery book lately, I don't know what is "out there".. But, I am certainly anxious to start a good mystery... as you said earlier... "I love a Mystery". What ever the group decides on will be okay with me..

Maggie

Joan: Thanks for opening "I Love A Mystery." I'm new to SeniorNet, so I don't know how you usually go about choosing books for a book club. I'm going to check out some of the other book clubs to see how they work, but I'll subscribe to this one for sure!

I'm using a pseudonym here 'cause I'm still leery of giving my real name and/or location on the Internet. I'm rather surprised to see everyone using full names and locations here on SeniorNet. Has anyone had any problems because of this?

tampopo

TAMPOPO? where did you get that? or is it a mystery. One of the pleasures I've found here at seniornet is that I don't feel that I have to protect myself from whatever. As you read all the posts you will probably find people you want to know better and will feeel comfortable with them and maybe eventually with the rest of us. It's a very civilized group..so far no problems of that type that you suggest, or that I know of. welcome, have fun and be sure to visit the cafe....it's a little zany at first but---well--but!! Claire

Hi all and JOAN, I don't know what to suggest beecause as fast as I find out about a mystery I read it. I understand Tony Hillerman has a new one but don't know if it's in paperback yet and has Grisham done anything lately. I read all the popular modern authors and never re-read anything, which is probably why I'm not fond of the classics. been there done that

I guess whatever we pick should be available in paperback in case we have to buy it. I like a setting I can recognize too. whatever? claire

Joan, glad to see you start the Mystery Book Club. Think this will be a popular site knowing that a lot of folks enjoy a good mystery. I am going to check the Amazon Book Store on-line and some of the others for some ideas. I like the work of Richard North Patterson and a lot of the other current writers.

Think you suggestion to just have someone pick the book is a good one since we already have a more elaborate procedure in the other Book Club.

Larry

Thanks for this site, Joan. I have liked mystery books for a long time. I guess the first one I remember is Rebecca by Daphne du Maurier.

There are several woman authors I have been reading lately. I am open to anything (as long as it is a good mystery). Reading mystery books is a good relaxant for me--especially if it is a page turner. (Most of them are!).

I read Grisham`s last book, and for the life of me, I can`t think of the title right now.

JOAN, count me in. I like Claire, read once and never reread. So much for the classics.Will check in later, gennie

Me, too....I'm in.

The first mystery I ever read was Nancy Drew.

I did so like the Bonita Granville mysteries....anyone remember them?? Anything you all choose is OK with me!!

Ginny

No historical please. I'm getting tired of those period peices! A mystery should be fun reading! At least that's my mood in the dreary winter. Right on Claire on been there, done that. More and more I feel we are almost kindred spirits, I'm just a closet free thinker. Need to seem to conform at times, but most know I definitely have my opinions. I too was hesitant at first, but felt that the weirdos wouldn't be interested in this site. (now I know we're all...) I feel like we are all best of friends and I feel I've known you for years, and years. ruth

OK, Miss Joan, when the Mystery book for February has been chosen let us know. I like to read different kinds of books and mostly Biographies, Historical Novels, and then of course the great books by Mitchner. My favorite mystery types have been Georges Simenon who passed away several years ago and the Sherlock Holmes stories. I have read many of Simenon's books in the original French and also translations. But I'm ready for something new. We have a great library here and I can usually get most any title I ask for. ---- Papa John

I don't feel quite so "Duh" now thanks to Ginny! My first mysteries in 4th. and 5th. grades were Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys too, nothing sophisticated certainly.

The library called yesterday to tell me that my name had come up on their list for the new Hillerman book, FINDING MOON, set in The Phillipines and Cambodia rather the The Southwest. You are right, it is not out yet in paperback so maybe it will have to wait. I plan to start it tonight since I am snowed in. The cover says, "...a story he has wanted to tell for decades about an ordinary man thrust into total chaos." Sounds good.

Have you ever discussed the series of mysteries set in the Middle Ages by Ellis Peters, actually a British woman, octagenarian, who died in 1996? Several have been produced for the "Mystery" program on TV.

I enjoyed them because I learned so much about the lives of ordinary people in that period rather than that told us by the history books, the focus of which is always on kings and wars. She obviously did a tremendous amount of research regarding that period. I understand the time much better now. Her plots are excellent too as was her writing, a most talented lady.

Betty A.K.

AW RUTH--that's sweet. Fran O> recommended a url to me for a real FREE THOUGHT organuization and I went and gave them my thirty five bucks and signed up just to have some reliable company. Most atheists these days are cautious about admitting it. This doesn't belong in this folder...sorry guys. It's funny though. I like the Navaho mysteries of Hillerman because of their setting and use of Navahoe religious symbols and characters. Also the speech patterns which his wonderful ear seems to have picked up although he's not a Navahoe. Claire

I just noticed someone is reading FINDING MOON which I couldn't resist and bought at Price club hard back half-price. Big disappointment for me. I guess I'm hooked on the suthwest setting and the Navahoes.

I read Finding Moon - I thought it was a little harder going than his other books, but very enjoyable. A real change from his traditional writing.

How wonderful to find all of you great people ready to become a part of the Mystery Book Club.

I have been baby sitting most of the day and came in here tonight to find all of these posts.

A warm WELCOME to each of you.

Joan

I, too, liked and still do, Nancy Drew books!!!

I believe I have read Ellis Peters several times. Isn"t she the one that writes about the monk the solves all those wierd mysteries? Sean Connery starred in a movie at one time but I can't remember the name of it.Richard North Patterson as was mentioned before is good.Hes got a new one out on the best sellers list called "Silent Witness".

But as always I'll go along with whatever is decided.

Nola

Don't be shy Pat, so do I. No Claire there is ONE difference, not an atheist, but unhappy with ORGANIZED religion, or should I say regimented. Like I said Mysteries should be fun escape reading, but well written and with a challenge to figure out whodunit. Or at least some action like Ian Fleming. Also like a good spy like Clancy. I too usually can't wait for paperback and hit library up as soon as I hear about a book, before they get it sometimes. Heigh ho, heigh ho, its off to bed I go. ruth

Everyone,

Please go to this site and read it. I posted it in the Web sites but want to put it here also because I want to be sure that you all read it.

History of the Mystery

Be sure that you continue on to the Summary after you read the overview.

Joan

Joan - Thanks so much. That's really great - but we're not going to have a test on it, are we?

Joan: The History of the Mystery was very interesting and provides a good setting for the beginning of our efforts here on SeniorNet. My earliest memory of reading mystery books relate to Erle Stanley Gardner. Think I read every book he wrote, at least that my library stocked. Also always liked the Perry Mason television series. Two other authors I have really enjoyed recently are Phillip Margolin and Steve Martini. I particularly like mysteries involving lawyers and trials. There are some really good ones.

Larry

Larry,

Thanks for reading the History of Mystery. It really is good background reading for this bookclub. It gives a good summary of the history of the subject. If you so desire, you can find out much more by clicking on the links in the summary.

I too went through an Earle Stanley Gardner period during which I read all of his books. I think the kind of mystery that I read exclusively for a long time was the one classified as the Cozy. I have expanded my reading now to almost all kinds of mystery novels.

Papa John You mentioned Simenon. I too have read many of his novels, both in the original French and in translation. Have you seen any of the TV versions of his novels? We have had them here on PBS. I enjoyed them alot. I have seen several TV productions of his novels while in France. The French productions are produced by his son. I probably learned about Simenon about the time I first started studying French in high school. i had an Aunt who read mysteries and I remember that she had some of his novels.

Jeanne, No test here!

Pat, Ginny, Betty K, Nothing wrong with Nancy Drew!

Joan

Important Announcement

Larry has agreed to choose our first book In fact he has chosen our first book to read. It is Motion to Suppress by Perri O'Shaughnessy (actually two sisters).

Here is what Larry has to tell us about it at this point.

"A Gripping legal thriller...A delectable mystery...A heck of a read" from San Francisco Chronicle Book Review; "A fast-paced legal thriller" from Library Journal; "Nonstop excitement" from Jeffrey Deaver, Author of Praying for Sleep; "A real puzzler" from the New York Times Book Review; "Surprising Revelations" from Book Page; "Spellbinding" from Somerset American; "A real page-turner" from Darian North, Author of Criminal Seduction; and "Compelling" from the Orlando Sentinel.

He is going to do some more research on ot and will let us know what he finds.

The book is in paper back.

Larry will appoint the next person to choose at a later date.

Joan

Lovely LARRY a new courtroom type author(S) for me. I love the format. Incidently you nancy drew people, my folks started me out on something similar called "the Judy Bolton" series. after I used them all up I got to read nancy drew but missed out on the Hardy Boys.

Real,y looking forward to this read. Now haver about five books going. somethings gotta give.....maybe "designing web pages"?nah! Claire

Claire,

You can do it all. I know you can!

Joan

The book selection looks great! Never heard of it, but love the reviews...Barnes & Noble, here I come!

Ginny

Hi. Just found this spot. I enjoy mysteries, but I read for fun. Am reading "Rosemary Remembered" by Susan Wittin Albert right now. A China Bayles story. Fun.

Joan: Count me in! I'm a mystery buff, too, anything except maybe umberto eco...he is beyond me.

Speaking of Ellis Peters....wasn't that a pen name? For whom?

Got it! Ellis Peters was really an author named Edith Pargeter....wrote scores of books under her ownname, chose Ellis Peters for the Bro. Cadfael mysteries.

Ain't Net Search grand?

Hurray for all of the Nancy Drew devotees!!!

Remember how she drove around in a "roadster?" Oh, did I think that was cool! That's what I wanted when I grew up. Then when I became old enough to drive, alas, the roadster was no more!

Mentioning her brings to mind a wonderful joke from the funniest movie I have seen in years, Robin Williams' "Au Cage.." (O.K., Joan, you can help with the French!) Robin had redone his apt. to make it presentable to the senator who was coming to dinner. He had borrowed from everywhere.

The pompous senator went up to the bookcase and exclaimed, "Oh look at the beautiful original editions! ...Nancy Drew?"

Betty A. K.

Pat Waalewyn,

We are glad to have you here. I hope that you will join us in reading our chosen book.

For your fun reading you can discuss those books in the Mystery and Thriller discussion. It is in the Books and Literature Folder too. You can get there by clicking on

Mysteries and Thrillers

Joan

Joan,

I was introduced to Simenon in college. Our professor was a real fan. When we lived in Europe I bought just about all the Simenon books on the market and still have around 100 or them. I have seen a number of his Maigret stories on the PBS and always enjoy them. Looking forward to Motion to Supress if I can find it.

Papa John

Teresa,

Welcome! I'm glad you decided to join us.

Joan

TERESA LOL I have umberto eco on my shelf because I tried and couldn't and couldn't but figured anything that tough had to be very worthy and am delighted to hear that he must be because you can't do him either. Claire

Maybe we need a study group for him.

Claire and Teresa,

You gave up too quick. It takes a while to get into Umberto Eco. I really like his work after I get into it.

Joan

Several copies of Motion To Supress are in our Nashville Library and I have ordered a copy to our local branch and should have it in a couple of days. Isn't is miraculous how you can find books in the library and reserve them on the internet? Wow!

Papa John

Hello, nice people!

So, you think you know books? You think you’re well read??

See if you can solve this month’s challenge: the "Name That Book Contest" in the Books and Literature section of the Roundtables. Just correctly identify the author and title described to win a very nice prize.

Entries checked daily at 6pm Pacific time. First correct answer wins. Good luck!

I was honored to be asked by Joan to select the first book to read for the Mystery Book Club. My wife and a good friend, who loaned us the book, told me it was good and very readable. I have done some Internet searching and think the following information will give you a feel for the book and hopefully, make you want to read the book.

Book: Motion to Suppress by Perri O’Shaughnessy was published in 1995. Perri O’Shaughnessy is the pen name for two sisters, Pamela and Mary O’Shaughnessy, who grew up and still live in California. Pamela received her law degree from Harvard Law School and Mary graduated from the University of California. Motion to Suppress is their first novel. In 1996 they published a second Nina Reilly mystery called Invasion of Privacy.

Synopsis: Returning from her late shift as a barmaid at a casino in Lake Tahoe, Misty Patterson struck her violently jealous husband in self-defense. She admits that--but did she kill him? She says she can't remember. Like so many times before, Misty blacked out and the rest of the evening is a blank. Now her husband has disappeared, leaving behind a trail of blood, and she's the number-one murder suspect with no one to turn to for help.

San Francisco attorney Nina Reilly is also on the run--from a bad marriage and a worse career setback. Relocated to Lake Tahoe, Nina is resolved to recover her spirit, give her young son a secure home, and build up a small solo practice. But, when Misty Patterson walks in the door, a blond Barbie doll of a cocktail waitress accused of murder, it triggers a harrowing series of events that will change both women's lives forever.

Common sense says Misty is lying. To win this case Nina will have to trust her own instincts, diving headlong into the dark convolutions of the human mind. This murder case--teeming with sinister secrets, unspoken betrayals, and jolting revelations--is going to change everything Nina Reilly believes about the law. It's going to rock everything Misty believes about herself. And if they can learn to trust each other, it's going to give both women their one and only chance to reclaim their shattered lives.

In a spellbinding novel that doesn't let go from the first page until the shocking unforgettable conclusion, Perri O'Shaughnessy delivers an electrifying legal thriller about two women risking all they have for the truth that could cost them their lives--or set them both free.

Source: http://www.bdd.com/newrl/07-01-95/data/bddnrp-mtos-stry.dtml

===== From the Amazon Books Web Site =====

Synopsis: From a tremendously talented new author comes a first novel that rings with truth: a superbly literate, heart-pounding story of crime and punishment. It's not easy for hard-driving attorney Nina Reilly to defend accused murderer Misty Patterson, who can't remember the night of the crime, her confession--or the one shocking secret the jury should never hear.

Synopsis: The stunning bestseller is now available in paper! In less than a week, attorney Nina Reilly's entire life has been turned upside down. Just recently a happily married lawyer in San Francisco, Nina is now a single parent hanging out a shingle in Lek Tahoe--and the hottest case in town just walked into her office in the form of cocktail waitress Misty Patterson, accused of killing her abusive husband with a small statue.

Synopsis: Attorney Nina Reilly loses her job, her marriage and her pride all in the same week. She leaves San Francisco for Lake Tahoe, taking a case that changes everything Nina believes about the law--and herself. 4 cassettes.

The author, Pamela O'Shaughnessy, 08/01/96: SEX, BLACKJACK, COURTROOM DRAMA AND LAKE TAHOE--If you can guess who killed Misty Patterson's brutal husband Anthony, and left him floating naked in Lake Tahoe, you're too smart for your britches! Misty is Tahoe attorney Nina Reilly's murder client - and she's confessed! It doesn't help that Misty looks like Claudia Schiffer and can't say no to the Prize's casino owner, or the local school principal, or...And Nina's made a big legal mistake which may cost her the case, and someone's going to push her Ford Bronco off a mountain road, with the two women inside...Nina's starting to wish she'd never set foot in a courtroom...The authors thank Amazon for setting up this comment - but please, it's SUPPRESS, guys!

Customer Comments

11/17/96, rating=10: It is one of the best books I have read this year.This great book has the very best storyline this year and I can't wait to get my hands on the sequel,Invasion of Privacy.I won' t give anything more away, though,so buy this book and see for yourself how fantastic it is!

09/11/96, rating=8: A clever and witty dialogue with gripping courtroom drama. While visiting her brother in Tahoe, Nina, newly separated from her husband, decides on the spur of the moment to open a law practice right there. A Native-American women convinces Nina to hire her as a legal secretary even though she is not qualified and got a bad recommendation from her present boss. Nina's first big case comes immediately when an abused wife is arrested for killing her husband with a statue of a polar bear and dumping him in the Lake. Misty, the suspect, has admitted hitting her husband but has no memory of anything after that. She also has no memory of her childhood; when asked, her father becomes hostile and refuses to answer. Nina hires an old friend and ex-cop, Paul, to investigate Misty's past. Misty's hypnotist/therapist may be running a scam, and his nurse/wife threatens Nina within an inch of her life. Did Misty actually kill her husband and forget? Did the "therapist" program her? Is Paul the marrying kind? Motion to Suppress is the Lake Tahoe/law version of the great hit TV show Northern Exposure. You'll want to race home from work to read it!

elizabeth.israel@itron.com, 12/30/96, rating=9: Don't plan on sleeping for two days - you'll stay up reading This book had it all - surprise twists, a heroine who goes after ideals and sticks to them, characters you care about, and some romance. It is a very quick-paced book not bogged down with a lot of legalese, but enough to make it credible. I found myself rooting for the characters to make it at different times. The ending was great - not at all what I expected.

Source: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ISBN=0385314108/4786-8216737-082446

Larry

Larry,

Thanks for all of the research that you have done on this book. It looks as if it will be a very interesting read.

I can't wait until I get a copy of it!

Joan

Larry - Your information has certainly piqued my interest. I'm on my way first thing tomorrow to find a copy!

PAPA JOHN how do you do that please. soes every library have that service and is there a place to look up my own library. It's just five minutes away but I love the idea of doing it HERE. CLAIRE

Claire,

Probably your library is on the internet. Search your city. Then find the library. If it has a home page like Nashville you can just follow instructions, use your library card number, find books, reserve books, etc. The Nashville Library also has a local number which if you have communication software you can set it up can get the same service through a local number. Good luck. ---- Papa John

My local library is set up so I just log on--request the book--they find it and call me. What a service!!! I installed something called Dialpak on my computer--they gave me the software--everything can be done by computer--nice!!

I was able to get a copy of Motion to Suppress right away--it grabbed me from the start!! I have about three other books I should get done, but you know how it goes with a good mystery!!!

May, I agree. I started reading Motion to Suppress last evening and couldn't put it down to read anything else for the rest of the evening. Hope to read some more of it this evening.

Larry

May and Larry,

I can't wait to get my copy. I am sure that it is fascinating.

Joan

Well, I can't wait to get my copy too. Larry, don't get too far ahead of us.

-- Papa John

Papa John: Not a chance. I have not even read all of the study guide. Did print it out and put it in my notebook so I could find it should I ever need it.

Larry

Hi Everyone,

I just received my Salon magazine communication by e-mail. there is an interview with Margaret Atwood, Canadian author, in it . She talks about Victorian murdresses, along with her new book. it is very interesting. Have a look at it.

Salon

Enjoy,

Joan

Thanks for that, Joan. I just read a review of Alias, Grace, and was very glad to see that interview. Also glad to find Salon, which I have heard a lot about.

Ginny

Joan,

Thank you for your information about Margaret Atwood. I have copied the article and will read it. I'm not the greatest reader in the world, though I like to read. This computer is hurting my reading time. --- Papa John

I got our book from library yesterday, will read a bit later, cause got two of Teresa's books too and they are getting interesting. later, ruth

I picked up my copy of Motion to Supress yesterday and read through the first two chapters. I'm withholding comment until later of course. So far it is interesting.

----- Papa John

Papa John,

Glad you got your book. i haven;'t picked mine up yet. I need to try to get to Barnes and noble today or tomorrow to get a copy. I'll probably do it tomorrow since we are having thunderstorms here in Alabama today. It is supposed to be beautiful tomorrow.

There is someone in the Parlor discussion who speaks broken English. he is from Quebec. How about going to that discussion and welcoming him. I started to earlier but had to get off line due to thunderstorm. I'll go back too. we can speak French with him.

Joan

OK, Joan, I'll try to find the person you are talking about in the Parlor Discussion. I don't think I have been there before. -- Papa John

Just finished MOTION TO SUPRESS. No comment, but....keep reading. I guarantee there'll be plenty of comments later on!

Teresa,

So it is a good one to discuss. I am glad to hear that. I will get my copy tomorrow. I like to read a mystery as fast as possible.

Joan

I have read through chapter 7 --- Wow! What's going to happen?

--- Papa John

If anybody is hesitating to read "Motion to Supress" thinking it is just another courtroom drama, please be assured this is a good story, reads quickly and easily,and won't give you nightmares. Whammo ending!

Would a sweet old lady like me lie? (Not about books!)

Teresa,

I'm about to go pick up my book now. I will read it straight through.

Seems Papa John is interested in it too.

Joan

Even though I am generally a slow reader I have finished the first twelve chapters. Yes it is interesting and easy to read. I will be interested in hearing the comments. --- Papa John

Hi Everyone,

I have had a diffcult time getting here today. I have been getting a Web Crossing off every time I tried to go anywhere on the RoundTables this afternoon.

I did get my book yesterday and will be starting it soon. I need to finish the Windsor book for the Original Book Club before I start this one.

What about all of you other people? I know that Teresa has finished hers. Papa John is progressing nicely with his. Any one else finished it yet? Is everyone able to get the book?

Joan

I'm in chapter 19 now. I TOLD you I am a slow reader. --- Papa John

Papa John,

Your doing fine. You have plenty of time to finish before discussion time.

Joan

I am enjoying the book. I have read thirteen chapters--nice read!!! I am going back to it later. Hope to finish it soon. It is a very good, easy to read book. (a page turner)

I haven't been able to get to the library yet and I haven't found it in any of the small racks in the local stores. We don't have a book store in town, the closest is 18 miles over the mountain and the weather hasn't been too great for taking that road lately. But I'll get it yet!

Jeanne,

You still have plenty of time.

May, I am glad that you are enjoying the book.

Joan

Hi everyone,

I'm only in chapter 10, but can tell this one has Soon To Be a Major Motion Picture written all over it, n'est pas? Maybe when we're done reading it, we can cast it together. The last time I had such a strong feeling about a book being a movie script in waiting was with A Time to Kill. This one has it all: great story, comic relief (Sandy), sex and romance, casinos and beautiful scenery!

Katie

Katie,

I have to get busy and finish the Windsor Book. I can hardly wait to start this one.

Since you think it will be a major motionpicture,it will be fun to cast it when we finish.

Joan

NOW HEAR THIS!!

Please go to the "INTERNATIONAL ADVENTURE READING CLUB" and see the book that Patrick has chosen for us to read. It sure looks good. Too bad I've already done my walk for today or I'd rush right out and get it now!

INTERNATIONAL ADVENTURE READING CLUB

I finished Motion to Suppress last night. Wow! All I can say right now is keep readi ng andafterwhile you may not be able to put it down. ---- Papa John

Papa John,

I really hope That I am getting to the point where I can start it.

I am hurrying through The Windsor book for the other Book Club since there is not much new in it for me. I have to make choices.

Joan

While my modem was unworkable I had time to finish Motion to Suppress. I also found it to be a page-turner and what an ending. Thought I had it figured out but did not. The authors have another book that was published in 1996 with the same attorney character. Look forward to reading that one also. Think we should have some interesting discussion on this book.

Larry

Larry,

We are so glad that you are back. We really missed you. I really want to put down the Windsor book and read Motion to Suppress but I have to use some self discipline here.

Joan

Joan: I am sure that you will be able to read the mystery before the 15th as it reads quickly and holds a persons attention. I just hope I can have enough self-discipline to get The Decline and Fall of the House of Windsor read before we finish discussing it.

Larry

Yes Joan, Larry is right. You will be able to read it in a short time, a good reader like you. I like to read a book which is enjoyable, interesting, with suspense. I think you will find this to be the case withMotion to Suppress. Papa John

Guess what? I finally learned how to spell Suppress! (As a writer, I was an editor's nightmare.)

Congratulations Teresa. I couldn't suppress the urge to compliment your spelling improvement. You wouldn't believe how I appreciate these modern "spell checkers" on the word processor software. --- Papa John, world's worst speller.

I picked up Invasion of Privacy by Perri O'Shaughnessy (sisters), at the library today. Hope to get started reading it on our four day trip to Key West. We leave here in the morning and will be back on line hopefully next Wednesday.

---- Papa John

Papa John,

Have a good trip. We'll miss you.

Joan

Papa John: I also wanted to read the second book in the series, i.e., Invasion of Privacy by Perri O'Shaughnessy but when I checked my library did not yet have it in their catalog. Will check later. Hope you have a nice trip.

Larry

I have it! I have it! However, I am right in the middle of the latest Dick Francis and since I'm not one of those people who can read and enjoy more than one book at a time, it will be a couple of days until I can start.

I'd like to join your discussion of this book. Found it at my library and am well into it. You are all so right!--it keeps your interest by drawing you right into the story. It's especially fun for me because the setting is so familiar. Have spent many happy hours tooling up and down Rt. 395 through the Carson Valley and around Tahoe on the back of a motorcycle. And I'm afraid Fresno is just as described. When I make occasional trips down to the valley to Barnes & Noble, I can hardly wait to get back up out of the smog or fog. Since you've warned me there's a twist at the end, I'm already trying to guess who dun it.

Jo

Jo,

Welcome to the Mystery Book Club. We are so glad to have you join us.

Glad you have started the book and are enjoying it.

Joan

If you read my post in Cafe this morning, you know I read it. Just couldn't put it down, and didn't. Can't wait to get into discussion. ruth

Ruth,

Great! I haven't started it yet. I am involved in so much that I am having a time getting all of my reading done. If you read it that way without putting it down I can too. I'll probably want to read it that way.

Joan

Finished Motion to Suppress very late last night. I was looking for the twist at the end and found out it was actually a double whammy!!

Jo

Ginny,

I have started Motion to Suppress

Happy Birthday Ginny

Joan

I've started it, too. So far, so good!

We got back from Key West last night and enjoyed it very much. At the gift shop at Ernest Hemingway's home I introduced myself to the clerk by saying, "Hello, I am Ernest Hemingway and I would like a discount." She wasn't amused. (Old Papa John has an Ernest Hemingway beard).

I am about half way through Invasion of Privacy and it is good like Motion to Supress, same setting and many of same characters. --- Papa John

Thank you for that pretty greeting, Joan! I do appreciate it! I didn't see it yesterday..What color of ink is that? It is beautiful...

Did you see the links Patrick put to S.Africa in his International Adventure Reading Club??

Ginny

I am finished with Motion to Suppress. Nice read--I was surprised at the ending. I didn`t have a clue--.

I realize I have not read all the posts, but, will there be a so-called discussion on this book? To save time, I often go to only the most recent posts. It`s a matter of cutting time spent on the computer for me. Maybe I have to reevaluate where I want to spend my time. I do want to keep up with most of the book discussions.

May, the discussion of Motion to Supress will begin on March 15.

--- Papa John

By this time I am sure John has corrected himself....Feb. 15 for "Motion to Suppress."

Teresa, you are right. I'm getting ahead of myself. But then as the years go by I get less responsible for little mistakes. So, February 15, just one day after Valentine's Day. Am I right this time?----Papa John

Papa John,

You are right this time. I hope I have the book finished. I have been running off to bashes, etc.instead of reading.

Joan

Larry I answered your e-mail about next month's book, but I didn't capitalize the letters at the beginning of your address. Hasn't come back so far. If you don't get it I'll re send right this time. It was before 6 and eyes still at half-mast. Sorry. Have to skim thru "Motion" as read it a while back and since have read others. Hopefully I'll be around to join in Fri. Possibly down over weekend for son-in-law to put in new modem, if I find one CHEAP today. ruth

Would like to join in discussions. Just found this site. It's great. Will try to get Motion to Suppress at library.

Shirley,

Welcome to our book club.We are so happy you are joining us. We are looking forward to hearing much more from you.

Joan

As we prepare to discuss our current book Motion to Suppress starting February 15, I am also pleased to announce that Ruth Warren will be announcing the book she has chosen as our next selection on or about that same time.

One of the benefits of selecting the book to read is that you get to select the next person to chose the book to read. I know what she has chosen and it sounds very good, but I can't tell.

Shirley, delighted to see you join us in the Mystery Book Club.

Larry

Well, I finished Motion to Suppress and returned it to the library. Now if I can just remember enough about it to be able to contribute to the discussion!

Jeanne,

You are ahead of me . I haven't finished it yet. I am reading it fast however.

Joan

My book is due today --- so I may have forgotten some of the things. Anyway I DID enjoy it and I am still reading Perri O'Shaughnessy's (two sisters) next book INVASION OF PRIVACY.

Papa John

Papa John,

When the discussion begins you will probably remember things. I am so glad that everyone has enjoyed reading the book. I am enjoying it also. I hope to get most of it read today before Sophie comes. I have to devote myself to her when she is here.

Joan

Hi Everyone,

I have been over at AOL tonight reading eht Book Report's interview with John Grisham. It was very interesting. I wish I could put it here but it is copyrighted . I will try to do a report on it and put it here. If you have AOL access go to Keyword Book Report and read it. You can also read two chapters of his new book.

Joan

Joan - You said in the cafe you were up late last night reading. Finishing Motion to Suppress? I'm looking forward to tomorrow when the discussion starts.

Jeanne,

Yes, I was reading Motion to Suppress. I couldn't put it down.

Joan

Happy Valentine Day to all of you mystery readers

Love

Joan

Let me slip in this as a prelude to our discussion on Motion to Suppress. What two characters in the book are very much like two fictional TV characters? There may be many more than two. And no one may agree with me but they popped into my mind almost immediately when they appeared in the book.

---- Papa John

Papa John:

I noticed some familiar-seeming characters also. Maybe it's like a successful TV show, if it works, let's do it again. Sure enjoyed the book tho'. Have recommended it to my daughter and am searching for their other title.

Beautiful Valentine rose, Joan. Thanks for that!

Joan, your flower graphic here and in the others folders are really pretty and a nice touch for Valentines Day.

Hope everyone is ready for the discussion to begin first thing tomorrow morning.

Larry

Hello, I have come looking for discussions on the Motion book, but none are there yet. Probably it is still the 14th Feb where you are, but it is the 15th p.m. where I am. Although I really enjoyed reading it, I felt that the husband coming in and finding her with the Plumber was rather a lame excuse for her packing up and moving to Lake Tahoe. I hope that this author is not going to fall into the same stereotype as so many other authors and keep churning out books with the same characters. One of the main reasons that I like Mary Higgins Clark is that all her first mysteries had different people in different situations. Anyone else feel the same? Wendy

I am posting the following on behalf of Ruth Warren, who I had asked to select our March mystery. She had planned to post the following today, but due to a computer problem she was not able to post it.

The Mystery Club Book for March is BONE DEEP by Darian North.

It was first published in September 1995 by Dutton (416 pages)($23.95). It was published by Penguin in their Onyx series in August 1996 (461 pages)($6.95 US; $8.95 Canada). I purchased it at a paperback exchange in town. It is available at my library. It was a Literary Guild Selection in Fall of 1995.

BONE DEEP is the second novel by the author, the first being CRIMINAL SEDUCTION in 1993, and an Edgar nomination, and on a few best-seller lists. I

found it to be another page-turner, and had trouble putting it down. (As usual, I didn't and stayed up to finish it.)

The following are some of the comments on BONE DEEP:

* Booklist/Sept.1,1995: "...this second book promises to be every bit as successful... Relentless suspense, a charismatic cast of characters, a murky but intriguing plot, and an ending that will surprise even the most seasoned reader make this one a top-notch choice."

* Library Journal/July 1995:..."This taut and compelling story is sure to be a hit with fans of Aaron Elkins and Patricia Cornwell. North's use of high tech forensic investigation gives this fast-paced thriller even more appeal."

* Publisher's Weekly/Aug. 21, 1995: "...appealing, convincing...Her new protagonist is plucky forensic anthropologist Iris Lanier, whose gender, expertise and detecting skills may make readers think of Patricia Cornwell's Kay Scarpetta. Iris is busy at a Mayan dig in Guatemala when she is called to a Manhattan hospital where her father lies comatose from a gunshot wound. Because John Lanier had remained on their California ranch after her mother disappeared when Iris was eight, she can't fathom what he was doing on the East Coast-or why anyone would want to shoot him point blank in Riverside Park... As before, North creates appealing, convincing characters..."

I was unable to find reviews online, but found these in print at my library. I hope you will enjoy this selection.

ruth warren

Let's begin our discussion of Motion to Suppress by Perri O'Shaughnessy.

It appears from the comments already posted that most everyone who has read this book found it to be a page-turner and apparently enjoyed it. I know that I did and will look forward to reading the sequel.

Am not really certain how one discusses a mystery story when most of us have completed the book and know the outcome. Guess each person should post any comments they think appropriate and then we can react to each others comments and questions? I am posing the following questions just as a stimulus to getting the discussion started.

Did you like the story and did it hold your interest through the last page?
Was the main character, Nina Reilly, a convincing character and did her actions make sense?
Was the secretary, Sandy Whitefeather, essential to the plot of the story?
Were the relationships of Nina and her husband and then of Nina and the investigator a necessary part of the story?
Did anyone get the feeling that Nina was way over her head in representing a client in a criminal case when she had no prior criminal trial experience?

When I first began this book and came upon the scene where Misty Patterson hit her husband in the head and then apparently just went to bed, I thought to myself that this is very poor writing and was shocked to see this scene at this point in the book. I was glad to see some explanation of this strange event later in the book but still thought it stretched the imagination. Did anyone else feel the same way?

I went back yesterday and compiled a partial list of the characters in this book and found there to be a rather large number. A few of them such as Nina's brother and sister-in-law did not seem to play a very important part in the story. As I look at the list I see that most of the characters had suspicion cast upon them at some point in the story. I must admit I didn't have this one figured out until the killer was revealed. Did any of you figure out in advance who was responsible for Anthony Patterson's death? Did you consider the quick demise of Anthony's ex-wife Sharon Otis, while on her motorcycle, a realistic twist in the story? She really sounded like a lulu (whatever that is)!!

Larry

First of all, I have to admit I seem to be in the minority here. I did not particularly enjoy the book. I cannot condone Misty's habit of jumping from one man's bed to another, or Nina's insistence on looking at every man she sees as a possible sex partner.

I was, at first, sympathetic to Misty as an abused wife and could accept her bashing her husband in the head. However, she then went to the kitchen to call 911 and the phone was not there - it was never explained why it either wasn't there or she didn't see it.

I was also disappointed in the final explanation of Anthony's death. It seemed to me as though the authors had loose ends about the boat drifting in such cold water and didn't quite know how to wind it up.

All in all, there were too many references to sexual acts for my pleasure. The scene with the plumber was completely off-the-wall in my opinion. If I had not seen all the raves about this book here, it is one I probably would have returned to the library without finishing it.

My wife's comment on finishing the book was, "I didn't particularly like it. Too much conversation and characters not very well developed." --- But I enjoyed the book myself. I think I probably am not a very good judge of the literary quality of books. If they hold my interest and I enjoy the story then it is a good book for me. --- I appreciated someones comment that there was too much unnecessary sex just for the sake of having it in there. Sandy -- the native American reminded me of a similiar character in Northern Exposure and the investigator Paul reminded me of Paul Drake in Perry Mason. I am almost finished with the sequel, Invasion of Privacy, and it is a lot like the first book. I had not figured out the ending and I thought it a little far fetched --- but I have to admit that I DID enjoy it. --- Papa John

I wouldn't put this book up there as a literary masterpiece, but it held my attention throughout. I didn't believe our heroine, as an educated, sometimes very compassionate, modern woman would have fallen into the arms of the plumber, now matter how sexually starved she was. I guess that was just a device to start her on her adventure. Neither do I believe the ending is plausible. Who would hit themselves on the head with a rock to do themselves in? He might have had just a bad headache from that.

As mentioned before, the receptionist character was a little too like Marilyn, the Indian woman who ran Dr. Joel's office in Northern Exposure and Nina seemed to me very similar to Susan Sarandon's lady lawyer in the Client.

In spite of the amateurness of plot devices, I did enjoy the book. And marvelled that two people put their heads together and came up with a story even this believable. I wonder how they divided up the labor? When I try to write, it's hard enough to please myself, much less another person. The plot moved right along and had some unexpected twists. The rest I'm chalking up to a couple of authors who are just getting their feet wet.

Jo

Larry, I have printed out your excellent questions and outline, and hope to refer to it...

I am somewhat timid here in expressing my opinion, as I have noted all along how many could not "put it down." I found myself having trouble "picking it up," but that's the joy of a book club....as someone said on an earlier selection, "you'd never know we all read the same book!"

I want to come back after all those who just loved the book have spoken, and hope to have my ideas refined and my appreciation deepened...it happened to me with some of the other books in the other club.

For now...I thought the authors did a masterful job with the suspence involved with Misty and Anthony. Really could not put that down. Very exciting and scarey...then she hit him on the head and fell asleep....put it down...Don't you KNOW you would have had enough adrenelin running to jump over the house? But this WAS explained psychologically, so it's actually well crafted....

When I got to Sandy Whitefeather, down went the book again. "Northern Exposure." What happened to Sandy, anyway? She and her easy helpful ways disappear about 1/2 way through the book. So, Larry, that was a really good question: was her character essential?

The behind the scenes trial info was fascinating to me; obviously the authors know whereof they speak....

Think I'll shut up now and read what you all have to say:

Ginny

Larry, I will try to answer a few of your questions, but may I start by saying that I don't expect a Mystery book to be a Cultural Experience, but to me a good book is anything that I enjoy reading. For the most part I enjoyed it and found Nina to be a convincing character. Sandy Whitefeather was too slovenly in my opinion to be of value in a Lawyers's office. However, her contacts and bringing business to the newly opened office was important. I would have liked her to have smartened up her act after getting the job. Yes, I think that knowing about Nina's relationships with her husband and the Investigator were important in letting us get to know her. I did get the impression that she was way over her head in this Criminal Case, but she came through admirably. Although the local doctor and his actions were very predictable she took too long time to figure out his involvement with his patient. Although it was a book that I enjoyed I could pick it up and at certain places put it down. Hope I haven't been too long winded. Wendy

We seem to have mixed reviews here already. Wouldn't it be a dull world if we all liked exactly the same things????

But surely there are more who read this book and have opinions. Remember Larry's questions, although really valid, are simply suggestions to get us going... right, Larry?

And there is no right or wrong answer or useless opinion, so come on folks!

Something that really bothered me about the otherwise bright lady lawyer was when she decided to leave the kids alone on the playground while she did some sleuthing. Did anyone else notice this? Remember, she said she didn't want to be overprotective and anyway, her little boy had a beeper? She also had her four yr. old niece to look out for. I can see Bobby getting absorbed in play and not even noticing someone walk away with the little girl. Wonder if the author(s) have kids? Or maybe I'm just an over-protective granny. Or maybe this is the kind of behavior we should expect from this sometimes irresponsible lady and is right in character but I wanted to say, "No, no, don't leave them there alone!" Been watching too much news and reading too many headlines, I guess.

Jo

That scene of leaving the children alone in the playground seemed to be building up to something and then fell flat. I felt it was just used as a "stretcher" - to add some length to the book, or something of the sort, because it had no apparent relativity to anything.

Jeanne: You are absolutely right, my questions were presented just as a way to get some discussion going and certainly not intended to limit discussion. I certainly agree with the comment that you don't expect a book like this to be a literary masterpiece. I liked the book because it held my attention and I wanted to finish it after I got past the scene where Misty just went to bed after hitting her husband in the head.

As far as there being too much sex in the book, I remember a comment that Teresa Bloomingdale wrote several months back as to a review she had done and making the same type of comment. The author had written back saying that the publisher had required him to put in these scenes whether the book needed it or not. I wonder if the same could be true here. Perhaps Tereas will amplify on what she said before.

After having read about half of the Spoto book on the Windsors I was glad for a break with light reading. Think that had a lot to do with enjoying this book.

Larry

Larry - It may very well be that the editors insist on sex scenes being added. However, that does not preclude my refusing to read more by the same author when I have found a book to be offensive. Just my personal taste, of course. (I don't even like cereal that stays crisp in milk!)

It was Robert Ludlum who told me that the publisher insisted on sex scenes, and I can believe it. I was reminded last night of just how bad the sex scenes got when I was reading an old Helen MacInness novel. She solved that problem by having her characters already married...and who wants to read about married sex?

I'm sure I've told you the story (True!) about my one and only attempt to write a novel. It was rejected 18 times...never did get published...and a frequent editorial complaint was: "Not enough sex and violence." I finally wrote one editor and said: "Listen! I had 10 children; seven of them boys. I've had enough sex and violence to last me the rest of my life, and I'll be darned if I'll write about it!"

Fortunately that trend seems to be abating. I hope so. I hate the violence, in books or movies, and while I don't hate the sex, I think of it rather like a delicious gourmet meal. I don't want it described chew by chew, swallow by swallow, digestion included.

Teresa, I have appreciated the discussions about sex and violence and how it seems that editors sometimes insist on it in their books. Good for you to refuse to inject these things just to add spice and sell books. I especially liked your metaphor "I hate the violence, in books or movies, and while I don't hate the sex, I think of it rather like a delicious gourmet meal. I don't want it described chew by chew, swallow by swallow, digestion included." --- Other than that. How did YOU like the book? -- Papa John

Hello! I am enjoying your comments on Motion to Suppress...(Teresa you are so refreshing! I love you! Have you checked upstairs to see if any of those kids still live at home ?)

I had a fun experience with this book. One night last week I announced I was going to pull an all- nighter and read this book from cover to cover, starting right after dinner. "Why"?, asked the family. I really didn't have an answer. I had looked at the book earlier and decided it looked like a "lightweight" and not one I wanted to spend a lot of time on. (I'm one who plods through and examines every line of the Odyssey)...I decided it would be fun to see how late I could stay awake. Everyone respected my intention. Husband cleared all the dinner dishes, the TV was dark - no Sega, no basketball games - just quiet... Well, I flew through the first four chapters, and then realized this was a mystery and slowed down so as not to miss important clues. By two a.m. I realized I was sleeping through whole paragraphs, and would reread til it sounded familiar. By three, I knew two things...that I wasn't going to finish the book that night (morning) and that I knew who done it! The next morning I read the last 50 pages and found that I really didn't know who done it earlier, but wait...yes I did!!! Out of respect for those who have not finished the book, I won't explain...those who read it will know what I mean...

As a mystery, I wouldn't rank this book up there with the best...I never felt I was in the hands of a master storyteller. I am reading LeCarre's Tailor in Panama right now and feel that I must be on my toes because everything that is conveyed is there for a purpose. Some of you have expressed my feeling too, that many of the scenes are there as filler...When you think you are storing away a piece of important information, you never hear about it again... I even thought for a while that Sandy Whitefeather was part of the plot!!! It really wasn't too hard to figure how Larry Stokes died. Just forget all the clues...

The characters never seemed more than one-dimensional. Never got to know or care about any of them. There was only one little flicker of amusement when Nina and Misty were laughing and screaming at each other after they were nearly killed. For some reason, that scene seemed real and funny and I could feel the relief they were feeling...

Am interested to hear how the rest of you liked the book...how about you, JOAN GRIMES? I remember how you were looking forward to reading this book. Maybe I wasn't fair to the author by reading it in one sitting like I did...

I tried to post my comments three different times on Sunday and my ISP kicked me of and I lost it each time. I should have composed it in my word processor but did not do it then but I have done that today. I didn't do it yesterday because just didn't feel up to it. Here it is:

Motion to Suppress held my interest at times at other times I didn't want to finish it. I think that most of the time I was questioning the author about why certain things were done or not done rather than trying to solve the mystery. I did solve it without much thought.

The characters are stock characters. they are picked right form some other place and put it into this book without any thought of developing them to fit a story. They are flat without any feeling of being real .

The situations created are flimsy and unbelievable. I can't see any reason for that silly scene with the plumber. What was the reason for letting her have an illegitimate son?

After the accident on the way back from San Francisco how did Nina and Michelle get home? I read that part over two or three times looking for the answer to that question. I suppose that isn't important but it is important in showing the careless, amateur way that this novel is put together.

I suppose these authors felt that a mystery does not have to be good writing. They must think mystery readers are ignorant of what makes a good book. Their plot was too thin to hide all of the obvious defects.

Maybe you are right about the courtroom scenes, Ginny. I don't know because I have never been in a courtroom for a murder trial.

This book was obviously written to make money. and they were able to publish it because of the current popularity of courtroom and lawyer mysteries.

I do not agree with some of you that mysteries are just light reading. I think there are many mysteries that are literature. Read the history of the mystery that has a link in the Web sites folder. You will see what I mean when you see the people who have written mysteries.

Joan P. you referred to my desire to read the book. I always look forward to a good mystery. There are many good mysteries to be read.

I am glad that I finished it. it leaves me with a terrible feeling when I do not finish a book.

Joan Grimes: I agree with you on almost every point. Just about the time the story would get interesting, something would pop up that didn't make sense, or seemed to have no point. I don't think the book was poorly written; I think it was poorly edited...if at all. Authors used to rely on editors to point out inconsistencies and the like but this one must not have had an editor.

Still, I enjoyed the story; it was a fast, relaxing read. But I didn't realize how second rate it was until I re-read Helen MacIness. Now there is a mystery writer!

Maybe that's our problem. We are so addicted to the good writers we have no patience with the mediocre.

The book was saved by the ending....impossible though it was!

And I found the ending very disappointing! In fact, I guess I just found the book itself disappointing. Too many points were left just hanging and never referred to again. I kept waiting for answers to questions and they never appeared.

There seems to be a lot of agreement that this book had a lot of faults, but most of us still enjoyed reading it (or parts of it). I was just ready for a change of pace and am not very critical when I read. When you think about some of the characters, the authors obviously tried to divert attention by making a person think that first one and then another could have been the killer.

As a man, I was troubled by the creation throughout the book of the idea that the step-father had molested Misty as a child. While I am aware this is a problem, we seem to be fast approaching the time when no man is going to be comfortable with his children (which is a crying shame). I think this book continued to foster this politically correct idea and it wasn't necessary. While I thought the parents were terrible to have let the daughter think she was responsible for her Father's death, even if repressed in her past, I was very uncomfortable with this line in the book.

Larry

Larry,

I am so glad you brought out this point. I did not like that either. I kept thinking that if it turned out that the step-faither had molested her that I would say the book should just be trashed. I was glad that it did not follow that line, although as you said it was cruel to let her believe that she killed her father. I see the use of the repressed memory thing as another example of picking up things and using them because they are popular themes at the time the book is written. I am not a great believer in this repressed memory thing.

I am glad that we read the book and are discussing it. It lets us know what is going on with the lack of editors, etc.. By being critical of it we are making ourselves aware of reasons for not liking a book. There were parts of this book that really held my attention. These authors probably could write a good book if they worked at it and had a good editor, as Teresa said.

Teresa, I love Helen MacInnes and own copies of every book that she has written. She is a master writer. Is she still living? Maybe you are right about the fact that having read so many good writers it is hard not to be very critical of what is being written today. I don't know though, I still find books that are good.

Joan

There are writers today who are masters of the craft and who can hold your attention, whether in a mystery, a romance, an adventure, or non-fiction - whatever the genre.

There were also writers in past times who were mediocre or poor (or even rotten), just as today.

I think the greater range of "permissible" subject matter today makes it more difficult to find what we enjoy reading. More and more often I find that a jacket description or a review will make a book sound intriguing and the first few pages will make me close it and forget it.

I've been reading your views on this book and find I agree with all of you. Do you suppose that the undeveloped characters and untidy plot could be due to the fact that there were two authors? I've been thinking about how difficult it would be to write a poem, a mystery - any fiction for that matter - with anyone, even my sister (especially with my sister!) Do you know of any pair of mystery authors like this? I seem to remember Marilyn Quayle and her sister attempting a novel of some sort, but never read it. When I write, I have to wait for the Muse to move me, and can't imagine waiting for two of them!

JOAN GRIMES, I know you love mysteries...and read an earlier post that you had begun this one and liked what you had read so far. That's why I was curious to know how you liked it as the plot thickened...At that point, I wondered if I was being too critical of the O'Shawnessy sisters. Has the next mystery been selected yet? Tonight I finish Tailor of Panama, which I'm really enjoying! Recommend it highly...

joan p

No edit option that time! Meant to get back and correct the O'Shaughnessy spelling...I see the March selection is Bone Deep Great, will try to pick it up on Thursday! Night all!

Joan P

I think if the problem was that there were two authors, a good editor could have helped them , as Teresa suggested.

Joan

Joan P. - You asked about other authors who were "dual". I've heard of several, but right now the only one that comes to mind is Ellery Queen. Certainly there was never a looseness of plot or characterization in any of those books, so I don't think that can be the entire reason for poor quality in this one. I kind of had the feeling that one of the sisters was concentrating on Nina's character and the other sister took care of the rest of the book. Perhaps the problem is that they didn't really work together on it - just fed each other bits and pieces. Maybe it was an effort somewhat like our "Write Your Own Mystery"!

All comments were very interesting and valid. I guess I approached the book as Teresa said a fast, relaxing read. For that it was good, not great, but interesting. I guess I don't like to analyze what I'm reading, while I'm reading it. For some light reading it held my interest, and yes things seemed to be in it for no real reason. I was not happy with the parents' storyline. I felt Sandy was comic relief (not a watcher of Northern Exposure, so have no comparison). Earlier some objected to sex. Nothing spectacular, not as graphic as some romance novels I've tried to read. Have you seen some of them? Never even got started with plumber. Thought that whole thing was "dumb" but it served as a way to end marriage and add to her guilt.
Sorry this is so disjointed, but tried to post twice and no could do.

I want to thank Larry for posting for me Sat. Never did get to daughter's puter as Don was trying to install my modem. Don't be deceived 33.6 doesn't seem that fast to me. Now ISP says "well, maybe it's the Windows 3.11 and should have 95. Don't have the hard drive for it so will go as is. Sorry, I got carried away. But a WHOLE WEEK of silence???? Impossible!!! ruth

I enjoyed Motion to Suppress--I feel if I can read a book easily and am able to pick it up without having to reread, it`s a good read. There were certainly faults and I won`t go into them again. I did NOT figure out what had happened until the very end. Maybe I`m not very discerning, but I liked it.

Ruth: Glad to see you back with us.

I agree with you in not being a very critical reader while reading the story. It is only on reflection that I begin to think of things that bothered me. Did anyone else see the private investigator as a Paul Drake type character from Perry Mason? Nina seemed to be able to call him at a moments notice. Of course, the male/female entanglements were different but the character seemed to be the same type of personality.

Larry

Larry,

Yes I noticed the Paul Drake similarity. I know that we have been really critical of the book but I did finish it. I think that as these authors continue to write that they will surely learn to develop characters better and develop plot better or people will not continue to read their books because every book will be like reading the first one over again.

I will always be a critical reader because I was taught to be both in English courses and in history courses. i don't think it is bad to be a critical reader. We need to be.

Joan

Joan

I agree with Teresa, this book needed editing--badly. Not only to tighten it up, but to correct many grammatical errors.

I skimmed much of the witness questioning as it was a repetition of what we already knew. As a whole, the book was too long and did not hold my interest. It was easy to put down and I am addicted to whodunits.

The best thing I can say about this book is that it would be very good as a condensation by Readers' Digest.

Let's try something ... how about posting what we liked about the book. So far, it was easy to read, we finished it and it would make a good condensed Reader's Digest selection.. Anything else - specifically? There must have been something the publishers liked, or it wouldn't have made it as far as it did...

Joan ?

Joan,

I liked the setting in Lake Tahoe which I have read about and seen as a travel destination but which I have never visited. The setting is often an interesting part of story telling.

--- Papa John

Joan: Good point. It is easy to focus on the negatives. I think there were positives too, otherwise it probably would not have sold and been considred a success.

Overall, I liked the book. While I was reading it I was not very critical. The story line kept my interest and I really did not figure out the ending.

Larry

I picked up Bone Deep by Darian North this morning at the library so I'm ready to start the next one. It takes me longer than a lot of people to read a book so maybe I'd better get started on this right away. --- Papa John

I will agree that Motion to Surpress is a nice light read, held my attention, kept my interest, and had a great surprise ending.

Thats where my problem with the book occurs, I consider a mystery to be a book in which enough clues are given for the reader to solve the crime. Does anyone else agree with me.

Cam

Cam,

I would like to get a suprise sometime. I feel that there should be many clues but that the author should try to lead you away from the real solution. I always solve them but I have read so any of them that I don't really expect to be suprised.

Joan

What did I like about the book? I've been racking my brains, trying to find something. Maybe that it wasn't any longer? I really only finished it because it was for book club discussion and because I had seen so many raves I hoped it would get better.

JOAN

I didn't mean that One would be necessarily able to solve the crime, just that the clues should be there so that one can look back and say, why didn't I see that.

Cam

Cam

Your right! They should be there.

Joan

Likes: easy quick read, pleasant story, light reading. Not all that bad plot, not terrific tho. Good change of pace book, not in mood for heavy, mind using etc. reading. Hit the spot, or mood I was in that nite. Reread last week and still liked it generally, for the same reasons. ruth

The most positive aspect of the book, IMHO, was the quick and easy read. As others have said, it was relaxing, and once in awhile it is fun to read a book where the clues are obvious.

Warning: Just went out to get BONE DEEP and after reading the back of the book, rejected it. Then realized it wasn't North's BONE DEEP. So watch it when you buy it; be sure it is North's and not Wiltse's.

Book titles are not copyrighted (copy written? you got me!) There is nothing to keep you from writing a novel and titling it "Gone With The Wind" or whatever. Interesting, eh?

The postive thing I found about the book was the setting. As Papa John said that is important. I do not know much about the area as I have never been there. It was nice to read about that area.

Joan

I think characterization is the most important quality in a mystery, or any book, for that matter. In a mystery, it is almost the most important thing to me, and will keep me reading past silly plot contrivances and impossible denouements.

If I don't care about the characters, I don't care what happens to them...as the Poet Laureate of South Carolina told me once, "a mystery is a journey that the author has invited you to participate in...and what happens along the way is what makes it interesting."

I almost never guess the solution ahead of time.

Ginny

I have read the first few chapters of Bone Deep and so far so good.

--- Papa John

Papa John,

I am glad you have started the book. I was going to ask today if anyone had started it. I don't have it yet. I didn't have time opn my last trip to Barnes and Noble to look for it. I have an excuse to go back to Barnes and Noble this week.

Has anyone else started it?

Joan

I still have to get BONE DEEP...but for those who haven't yet gotten it, remember there are two books with that title, and we want Darien North's.

Just picked up my copy today. Thanks to you, Teresa, I got the right author.

I was able to get "Bone Deep" from the library, but haven't started it. Need to finish a couple of the other books first as the month is running out. Guess I need to read a lot faster or maybe just spend more time reading something other than the comptuer screen.

Larry

Bone Deep by North wasn`t available at our library. I suggested that they purchase it, but it will be summer before it arrives. I have not checked book stores? Is it available in paperback? Any info will be appreciated.

I placed a hold on the only other book they had by Darien North. Maybe I`ll just read that one.

yes, "Bone Deep" is available in paperback, and I do hope you can get it because it is really good! I started to read it last night, and put it down reluctantly after 250 pages. (I thought of my comment to an English teacher, my first year in college: "You expect us to read 50 pages in one night? You've got to be kidding!" She'd be so proud of me! of course "Bone Deep" is a lot more fun to read than "Beowulf.")

Beowulf ...hmm...don't let Ginny hear you, Teresa, or that will be our next selection for Great Books....

HMMMM you say Beowulf?....

Yes, May, I just got Bone Deep today at Barnes and Noble, but they didn't have it in the Mysteries, it was in the Fiction section, and I almost missed it.

As I was paying for it, the clerk said, "You'll love that....it's really good!" Sounds great to me!

Ginny

Teresa,

You wrote: She'd be so proud of me! of course "Bone Deep" is a lot more fun to read than "Beowulf."

I don't know about that. Beowulf is pretty violent with much blood flowing. It pretty much meets the requirements for today's society.

I am looking forward to reading Bone Deep. I will try to get it this weekend or the first of next week.

Joan

Well, it's the last day of February and time to clean up the desk top one more time. I find here some notes I made on Motion to Suppress and it's time to clear them away and get ready for Bone Deep...I'm going to include them here, so that if the O'Shawnessy's are guests on aol or something, I will be able to review the notes beforehand. My memory is so.........

I liked many of the same things you all have mentioned. This was an easy read because of the dialog, for which the authors have a good ear. I can almost hear them working on the dialog together. Most of the information is given to us through the dialog, which is why it was so easy to read.

I too, liked the settings, the descriptions of Lake Tahoe and the surrounding scenery. I also appreciated the descriptions of the gambling world and the real people who work there. It was interesting to learn of their feelings about the tourists, the clientele. I had never stopped to think about them before.

I thought Misty was well portrayed, even though there were some unexplained aspects of her character. This was forgivable though, because it helped me understand what she must have been going through with her own amnesia...she was ready to believe she had committed the murder because of her memory loss...

A good mystery usually keeps you guessing, and there were a half dozen characters who had the motive to kill Anthony. Maybe there were too many, but they had to be considered and then eliminated.

I think we had all the clues to figure out what had happened (not the Dr. and Mrs. Greenspan episode-here I agree a good editor would have helped). We knew Misty didn't hit Anthony hard enough to kill him, we knew he had been hit twice. We knew she couldn't have hit him again and dragged him through the snow to the boat. We knew she didn't know enough about operating the boat. We knew she and Anthony were the only ones with the key to operate the boat, we knew she didn't take him out there, drag him down into the cabin and then back up again to throw him over...and then swim back (we were told only someone in a wet suit could have managed that in those temperatures) and Misty woke up in the same clothes she had on the night before. It had to be Anthony!!! Then there was Sharon, the ex wife, who lost her Harley pin outside their window the night of the murder, who told Nina she had information that could clear Misty for the right price. When Nina refused, Sharon was willing to let Misty hang for the murder. She had no friendly feelings toward Misty, but if she saw anyone else murder Anthony, would she have let that murderer go free ?...don't think so...

The outline for the plot looked good on paper, I bet. It just needed some cleaning up. I liked the book better the second time around...Will give it a two and a half...

Joan

Joan Grimes: I just KNEW you'd be one of those students who read BEOWULF all the way through! I couldn't even translate the olde Enllish, let alone get into the story! Speaking of which, my favorite story about Beowulf (forgive me if I'm repeating this) concerns my aunt the nun, who traveled by shipto Europe a decade or so ago, as a traveling companion to one of my old college teachers. (You know she was old if she taught me.) My aunt wrote home: "I am reading lots of mysteries, and Sister K.is reading Beowulf, for the first time!" When my sister (also an English major; also a student of Sister K.) saw that she quipped: "So Sister is reading Beowulf for the first time! I'll bet you money-marbles-to-chalk she never reads it a second time!" With an English major and Humanities minor, Beowulf cropped up more than once in my college career. He was almost as boring as Sir Gawain and the Green Knight. Remember?

Ginny, you choose Beowulf and I'll be the next Wizard and drive you crazy with clues!

We arrived in Florida today for our month vacation -- late coming snow birds. I brought Bone Deep with me. It is due the 15th but I can renew it right here on my trusty computer. I really like the way we can find out if our Nashville library has a book, where, available, etc. and have it sent to our branch library. Between walking on the beach, swimming in the heated pool, enjoying Florida attractions, etc. -- I will find plenty of time to read -- maybe sitting on my folding beach chair. I have enjoyed the first few chapters of Bone Deep.

---- Papa John

Hey Papa John,

I am so glsd that you got to Florida safely. I hope you have a wonderful time. I am just glad you have your computer with you.

I just bought Bone Deep this afternoon at Barnes and Noble. I haven't finished the Tailor of Panama yet for the Bookclub Tailor.

Joan

Just finished BoneDeep.....when do we start? Now, or the 15th? Whoever chose the book gets a big Thank You from me! Loved it!

Teresa,

We start on the 15th. I haven't read the book yet . Ruth Warren chose the book.

Joan

I'm having a problem finding Bone Deep. There are three copies in our wide-area library system, but all three are out on loan.

And I haven't yet found it on any of the paperback racks in town.

Jeanne Lee, do you have a paperback exchange in your town. That's where I got it. It was out in Aug. of 96, so it may not be on shelves, unless a BIG bookstore. I saw it at Barnes and Noble here.
Have we given up discussing Motion To Suppress. That bothers me is there any way to underline titles? I was taught that was the way to do it.

Believe we have until the 15th to continue to discuss Motion to Suppress.

Ruth: It is very easy to underline a book title, just use "u" (without the quotes) in the beginning brackets and the /u in the closing brackets.

I have not started Bone Deep yet as am trying to read The Tailor of Pananma and just finished the Cry of the Kalaharai. Also just finished 84 Charing Cross Road. A very nice little book.

Larry

Larry,

Someone, I think it was Katie Bates, suggested that we cast Motion to Supress as a movie. that would be fun be fun Let's try it.

Who would you cast as the heroine? Everyone join in on this.

Joan

Joan: An interesting suggestion.

I would cast Meryl Streep in the lead as the attorney. Have to think about the others for awhile.

Larry

Carol Kane as Misty, not for looks, but for acting ability waith the amnisia scenes.
Thanks Larry. ruth

I just was able to purchase the book--it definitely is a page-turner! I LOVE it. I am going to put off reading Tailor of Panama until I have finished this one. I`m not ready yet to cast characters for the movie. I need to sign off and get back to my book!

How about Robert Mitchum for the detective?

No Jeanne, someone younger. Pierce Brosnon maybe?

Do you think Pierce Brosnon would accept a role like that --- not really a leading role.

I'm not familiar enough with movies to add much to this discussion. I'll leave it to you younger kids. I can't remember anybody but Clark Gable and Betty Grable.

--- Papa John

Papa John: So? Who said the actor or actress has to be living? I thought this was cyberspace, where anything goes! I see Susan Hayward as Misty I know she can't do it now, but I really don't think Hollywood is going to care who we nominate.

Right! That's why I like Robert Mitchum - a young Robert Mitchum for the part of the detective. (Plus which, I haven't been to a movie in twenty years and don't know any of the young actors.) And Marilyn Monroe in the part of Misty - didn't she always play the "dumb (and sexy) blonde"?

You're my kind of people!!!!!!!!! Was expecting some over-my-head intellectual discussion of (who knows what). When I read whether Robert Mitchum or Pierce Brosnan should play the lead of the novel you have currently read I was LOL (I'm so proud of myself).

Has anyone read Mary Higgins Clark? Have read most of her paperbacks and I love the way she gets into what's for lunch and her characters' wardrobes while her victims are getting done in. I really do find it enjoyable reading though.

Everyone,

Come on do the Mystery Quiz. If you like to read mysteries you can do this quiz.

Entries must be in to Jeanne Lee tomorrow.

Just click here to try it.

Mystery Quiz

Joan

I am now more than half way through Bone Deep. I told you I was a slow reader. It is interesting and the more I read the more I wonder how it is going to turn out.

--- Papa John

OK guys March 15 is fast approaching.
Do I have any volunteers to pick the next book? Speak up NOW, or I WILL APPOINT.
Can you tell I'm used to leading? Can you tell I was a mother of authority? Can you tell I'm desperate? ruth

I finished Bone Deep this morning, sitting by the pool, sipping iced tea, enjoying the good life -- vacation time! I'll wait until the 15th for comment other than to say I enjoyed it and you will too.

---- Papa John

I, too, am enjoying Bone Deep--I am "forsaking all others"--I want to finish it and find out how it all ends!! I will be gone about a week so will catch up with discussion when I get back. I LOVE the book! I would have to go back in the posts to find out who recommended it. Great choice!

Twas me. That's the reason behind post 187; I'm resposible for appointing someone to choose next book. I'm giving you all til Fri. to volunteer, and then I'm just going to ask, and in public, so you can't refuse!! I am a dictator when put in charge, so watch out.(NOT) ruth

Would like to read your Bone Deep selection. Is it current, hard-cover, paperback, etc? Could someone suggest where to look. We have a B.Dalton Booksellers & Barnes & Noble in this area. Thank you.

Adele,

Welcome to our mystery book club!! We are so happy to have you here.

Bone Deep by Darien North can be found in Paperback at Barnes and Noble.

Joan

Your local library may also have it. Mine didn't, but have ordered it for me.

Sorry, can't wait until the 15th to say how much I enjoyed "Bone Deep" and have just ordered Darian North's first book "Criminal Seduction". Wendy

Still no volunteers? Surely you've read something good?

Today is the 13th --- just day after tomorrow and we will be Bone Deep in discussion.

---- Papa John

Sent in your answers to the Mystery Quiz for this week? Deadline's Friday midnight, don't forget!

Papa John has recommended the mystery for April 15. It is Vertical Run by Joseph R. Garber. It was published in summer 1995 by Bantam Books; it is in both hardcover and paperback. It also was published by Random House as an audio book. A Book-of-the-Month Club featured selection. Warner Bros. and Peters Entertainment Co. purchased the movie rights for it. Since it is so late, I have given up my search as to if it was ever made into a movie. I ask for your help in this matter.

It has been described as “a hot, compelling thriller. David Elliot works in a 45th-floor executive office and one morning his boss aims a gun at him. For the rest of the day, everyone David meets will try to kill him. He has 24 hours to find out why.

I am working on a clickable for you to read the first two chapters on line, but "George" has found his way here. My library had the book. I can't wait. ruth

A friend recommended Bone Deep to me, even gave me the paperback. I took it home, and ended up staying up til 4 reading it. I never did have any willpower. I hope you all enjoyed it as much as I did. Since it's so late, I think I'll forgo any other intelligent comments as they won't come out intelligent. I'm an insomniac tonight, so frustrated about that clickable. It was at Bantam. I found it from a search in Yahoo's Books and Literature. ENOUGH, I'm babbling.

Here is the clickable.

Vertical Run

STUPID, STUPID, STUPID I just couldn't see the forest from the trees. Thank you Joan ( and you're an hour ahead of me).

Whoopee! It's March 15 and we can begin talking about Bone Deep!

I haven't had so much fun since I outgrew Nancy Drew! Great reading, fast paced, credible, and even educational! (Now I am intigued by the Mayan ruins!)

Is North as good as Cornwell? Better! Oh, yes, much, much better....but then I was really uptohere with autopsies.

Only criticismof the book: too edited. I have a theorythat the manuscript was much longer and the editor cut it...and I want to know what got cut! Why do they think we won't read long books? If they are as good as this one, we will!

Surprise ending? No, not really. What would you have done in the same circumstances?

I enjoyed the book. Cornelia read it and she liked it too. This is the real test of a good book, if it is entertaining and interesting. Last year we spent a month in Guatamala and of course this made it even the more interesting. I'll look at those questions and have more to say later.

---- Papa John

I guess I'm going to have to just lurk on this one as I don't have the book yet - and may not get it before it's time to read Vertical Run.

Jeanne, do you have a paperback exchange shop nearby? Since it came out last august. It should be around there.

Glad you liked it all. Obviously I did. Just the type I like to read. A fast read, pager turner, and interest keeping. I just couldn't put it down. But I do that alot, always have. Still not over my headache (sinus) so just passing thru, don't want to strain eyes. So I'll be back with your kind of serious analysis. I'm not too good at dissecting, why spoil a good thing. That's why my questions were a bit different. But everything I do is a bit different.

Ruth - Thanks for the suggestion, but the only such animal in town is one small shelf in our newsroom and all the books there are about 20 years old or more!

Joan, Thanks for the clickable. I have just downloaded it and will read same when I am offline. Here, we don't get the good rates you do. However, my library gets all the books I ask for very quickly.

I am sorry that I haven't finished Bone Deep yet. I can't concentrate on anything enough right now to do much reading. My mind just wanders off to other things which are on it right now. I will get it read soon though.

Joan

Joan, this is a good "escape book" Just read it to get into the story and enjoy it to forget about everything else for a few hours. I'm off to read the latest Grisham that way now.

Ruth,

I really like Grisham too.

Joan

Surpise ending Liked the surprise ending... But then could all that really fit in place that good?

the implausibility of too much of what happens

Maybe but that's what makes it interesting.... If it is too true to life, it might not be fiction..

I like a fast moving book that I can read in an evening or two... This one I started last Friday and finished Saturday evening... I really liked it.. So have checked out his other book that our Library had--- Criminal Seduction.

Pat / IL

I thoroughly enjoyed Bone Deep. I must confess that I don't read many mysteries. I find they are centered on developing the action and the mystery, but weak on character development, which I am most interested in when reading fiction. Bone Deep was very satisfying in all categories. I don't think there was too muchinformation; agree with Teresa that much editing took place , chopping out some needed information - Jeff Hirano and his father - grandfather also - more was needed to understand their behavior. For a while I questioned whether Jeff's father, Stewart or even Nathan Kaliker was Iris' father...Details like Iris' mother's dishes and quilt were included, waiting for Iris to find them when she went to California, but that went nowhere. When and Why did her father put them out after having them packed up all those years? There wasn't time when he got the call to go to New York, was there?

I liked the site descriptions in Guatemala and New York. Iris' profession had been carefully researched and then became part of the mystery's solution. Those of us who read Snow Falling on Cedars appreciated the reference to the Japanese internment camps and the loss of land after the war. Jeff's grandfather's gratitude to Iris' grandfather for saving the family land was understandable.

At times I was so absorbed in the story that I almost forget it was a mystery. Of course all the clues had to be tied together to conclude the story, and I think it was all plausible, despite some of the coincidences, such as the frequent allusions to the moon-names, Tarot cards, etc. Yes, I was surprised that Mitch was a murderer. I did suspect that he was involved somehow, and there were plenty of reasons to suspect Nathan Kaliker.

I'll rate this ****. Will be interested to hear how real mystery lovers rate it!

We have a winner for Mystery Quiz#3. Come to the Mystery Quiz and congratulate the winner.

Fortunately, I was able to take Bone Deep to Missouri with me and finish it there. I liked the book and agree that it provided some very interesting information. My initial thought on finishing the book was the implausibility of the outcome and that Iris could go to New York in an emergency and have almost everyone she encountered involved in the outcome of the book. However, putting that aside I found I couldn't put the book down.

I also wondered at the reasons for the revelations of Jeff Hirano's sexual preferences as it didn't add anything to the story. Just seems we find this theme in a lot of books now. Wonder if we are seeing politically correctness at play.

I really didn't see much similarity between this book and the books of Patricia Cornwell. Iris had little to do with law enforcement and was an unconvinced participate in the story thread about the bones found in New York. Suppose this story line was needed to tie into the bones of her Mother at the end of the story.

I was not terribly surprised by the ending of the book. Figured early on that Kaliker was not what he seemed. As a Father, it is very hard for me to image being so evil that you would totally corrupt your own son, as Kaliker had done with Mitch.

Did anyone else have a problem with the Kizmin character and that fact that her sister would be in the same hospital? Guess that is a part of the implausibility. Perhaps this is due to the editing as Teresa and Joan discussed above.

I would definitely read further books by Darian North. Ruth, this was a good pick for the Mystery Book Club. Am looking forward to the next book for April.

Larry

I had not problem with implausibility. To me, that's what made it more true to life....things do happen that way. ("Truth is stranger than fiction"?) As somebody said, this might well have been based on a true story.

Don't miss "Criminal Seduction." It's even better....no editing!

I thoroughly enjoyed Bone Deep for its character development, intriguing plot, and the realistic portrayal of the anthropology/archeology work. There were just enough tangents to keep the reader guessing as to how the mystery would play out. Any number of characters might have been involved.

As usual, the wrap-up at the end was contrived to ensure all loose ends were knotted up. Would a murderer really spill all the details of who did what to whom in the middle of that kind of action? Iris was a strong, independent woman, so I could buy her take-charge attitude while being pursued and rooted for her all the way. At least there wasn't an all-too trite courtroom confession, as in the last selection we read. The mark of an outstanding mystery writer to me is one who can reveal all at the book's end without causing us to suspend belief to swallow it.

The references to other-worldly influences on events didn't seem TOO fanciful; as Teresa said, strange things we don't always understand fully, do play a part in our lives and add their own mystery.

There WERE many coincidences, but I liked the Kizmin character so well that I was willing to allow her sister's hospitalization at the same location. I was afraid at first that Isaac was going to turn out to be a bad guy, then later decided he must be with law enforcement in some capacity. Was surprised to learn the true reason he kept that door closed to Iris. That's worse than the faceless ones you are sure are observing your every move in the department store dressing room!!

All in all, a satisfying reading experience and I look forward to more of North's tales.

I thoroughly enjoyed Bone Deep. I am not able to read for hours at a time--if I can easily pick up a book when I get another chance to read, It`s for me.

I was worried about Isaac turning out to be another bad guy--glad he wasn`t.

The ending was a surprise to me. Four stars from me--I will read more by Darien North.

I can't get the clickable to Vertical Run review to work. Am I alone?

Everyone done reading and discussing Bone Deep already?

Ruth - I can't get it to work, either, and haven't been able to see where the error is. Joan will be here soon, I'm sure and will fix it.

All,

The clickable did work. There is not an error in it. I get the message that it doesn't have DNS entry. this can mean many things. the server may be down or busy. If it doesn't work later I'll try to find the place through a search and see if there has been a change in the url.

Joan.

The clickable for Vertical Run ran (no pun) for me but doesn't anymore. It is a great adventure, fast moving, lot of violence and I hope you like it.

---- Papa John

As long as we're acting silly, and don't I always? DON'T ANSWER THAT. Vertical Run didn't run for me again.

Ruth,

I searched for Vertical Run. I found the url that is posted here. When I clicked on it ,I got the same message that we get here when we click on it. There is nothing I can do about it.

Joan

NO BIGGIE JOAN. Just wanting to check if it was me or not. I've been playing games with this set up. Thanks for your extra effort at a time when you need to devote your efforts to family.

Papa John - I'm glad you warned us it has a lot of violence. Now I won't bother looking for a copy to buy and I won't feel quite so bad if the library can't get it.

Time for a change of pace Papa John. If I ever can find the time, I'll start it. Did get it from library, but paperback exchange had it. I like paperbacks to put in purse. Tho you wouldn't know about that.

The clickable works for me. Don't know if this book will be my cup of tea, but I will try it anyway. For Mary Higgins Clark fans her latest book "Pretend You Don't See Her" is due to be released on 1st. April. I have already ordered it from my library, so should be first in line when it arrives. I have just finished "Criminal Seduction", but preferred "Bone Deep"

Wendy, the book will not be everyone's "cup of tea". I had just mentioned that I had read the book and liked it and "swish" it was chosen for April. I think I can say it is a fast read and though it is basically an adventure thriller it has an underlying mystery which adds to the suspense.

--- Papa John

Finished Vertical Run a few days ago and found it almost too exciting. This type of thriller is not the type I usually select, so I'm grateful for your endorsement, Papa John. Read it in two evenings because I had to see how the whole thing was resolved.

The first two-thirds of the story was more enjoyable to me than the last part which was more violent. I could imagine it as a movie and was casting it in my head until it became so gory I decided I wouldn't go to see it if it were a movie.

I'll save further comment until the discussion is in full swing but I think the men in my family will like it when I pass it on to them.

A new Mystery Quiz has been posted.

Check it out by clicking on

Mystery Quiz

Try it! It is fun!!

Jo Walker --- I'm glad you liked the book. I have had to turn it back in at the library and so when discussion time comes I may not remember all that much. Maybe it isn't properly in the "Mystery" catagory in that it isn't a "whodunit" but it certainly does have a mystery which makes you want to keep reading to find out what is going on.

---- Papa John

(PS -- We just got back home from Florida yesterday. Great holidays.)

Here are some recovered messages after the "crash."

This message from the Mystery Maker, Joan Grimes:

:19pm Apr 7, 1997 GMT (#197 of 201) Gardendale, AL

I have just reposted the Mystery Quiz#4

Click here Mystery Quiz to try it.

Joan

This message from Ginny :

Ginny - 03:31pm Apr 8, 1997 GMT (#198 of 201)

Just dropped back in to say I absolutely LOVE Vertical Run . I love the way it's written. Can't wait to discuss it...are you all enjoying it??

Ginny

This message from Pat Westerdale :

Patricia Westerdale - 02:01am Apr 9, 1997 GMT (#199 of 201) Altona, Knox County, IL

I complain about the violence on the 'Tellie', and this book seems to try and compete.

A good read and quite interesting... Hard to put down once you start. More later.

Pat / IL

This message from Larry Hanna :

Larry Hanna - 03:53pm Apr 9, 1997 GMT (#200 of 201) Grayson, Ga

I have gotten started on Vertical Run and it is an interesting book. Am wondering where it is headed.

Larry

This message from Jo Walker :

Jo Walker - 05:12pm Apr 9, 1997 GMT (#201 of 201) Oakhurst, CA, near Yosemite

Just remember those prophetic words, Larry. You wonder where it is "headed". Heads play a very prominent role.

I know I'm supposed to wait until Tuesday, and I will, but just want to say I'm now 1/2 way through Vertical Run and just love it. I wish I could keep on reading it...I keep trying to think what I would do in the same situation!

Have a feeling I would have been dead a long time ago.

Such books let you live vicariously and test your mettle safely...

More Tuesday...

Ginny

I'll allow myself one little comment the day before discussion begins --- I liked the way the book ended where the opening scene of the story was. The book had too much violence for me but that WAS the story and I have to admit that I enjoyed it.

----- Papa John

Good heavens, Joan!! Awards and praises to you for the art work!! Mercy, mercy!

Love it!

Ginny....looking forward to TAX DAY for a change, as am still running vertically through the building with Dave Eliott.

Ginny,

Thanks. I still have some things to add.

Joan

Papa John,

It's all yours today!

Joan

O.K. --- Vertical Run --- You know it has been so long since I read it and the book has been back at the library a long time I am not qualified to say too much. I will have to depend entirely on my memory. Cornelia had read the book and said I would like it so I read it. And I enjoyed it.

Notice the significance of the name. I can see the main character, what was his name, as he goes up and down in the building trying to escape and he doesn't know why everyone is out to kill him. This was maybe the greatest suspense of the story. Why were so many people suddendly wanting him to die? Even his family seemed to be against him as well as all his friends.

Though there were some things which didn't seem plausable before the end of the book I believe all the mysteries were solved and the questions answered.

What do you think?

1. Was it well written in your opinion?

2. Did it hold your interest?

3. Was the plot believable enough for you?

4. By any stretch of the imagination could this be called a mystery?

5. Were all the loose ends accounted for?

6. Did you like the ending?

Well, that's the best I can do for the moment.

---- Papa John

Well, I'll jump in here, although I'm not through YET!!

I love the thing. It's SO like a recurrent nightmare I used to have...so similar, it's eerie.

It's so real to me....I'll tell you where he has started to lose me, however....first with the "Home Alone" practical jokes stuff...which weren't....but I, and this is just ME, would be too scared to think up all that stuff, and

2. I've just gotten to the woman who was raped or inseminated or whatever and that was a little much, and I do hope he doesn't keep straining credibility here...but what can you do? He can't run around in that building forever.

It's definitely holding my interest...so far it's definitely well written....it's surely a mystery to me, and since I'm not through, am not capable of answering the last two...but what a wild wild ride this has been...

More later....

Ginny

I posted in the cafe that I had told Kon about the book--he ordered it from our library and really enjoyed it. It's not my 'cup of tea' however. Anything with suspense makes me nervous any more.

I thought the book was well written as it certainly held my attention. I thought there were some unnecessary flashbacks to the military experiences with very graphic descriptions, but see that some of that was necessary to explain Dave Elliot's background and expertise and why he could understand and outwit the type of people who were after him. Perhaps strains the imagination that after 20 years or so he could retain his expertise to be able to outwit everyone else, to create all the diversions, and to make such effective deterents from office supplies, especially the explosives.

I also had some problems in believing that Ransome or people related to him could get Dave's wife and son and everyone else mobilized in such a short period of time. Was not clear to me whether these people were told some other story or were told the truth. Also who did Ransome and his gang actually work for, was it the CIA or some other secret government agency?

I also had a problem in believing that Marge Cohen would be a pliant as she was presented in the book.

It certainly was a frightening plot line and I would hope that something like that could not happen, but it probably is not beyond possibility that such a devastating thing could happen.

I considered it a mystery in that I couldn't figure out what was going on for many pages into the book. This was certainly one of the more graphically violent books I have read in sometime. It almost read like a screen play and it was easy to see how Bruce Willis or similar actor could make a movie out of this story. Sure we will probably see it on the screen, if it has not already been there.

I suppose the loose ends were tidied up adequately except for what happened to Elliot at the end. The Epilogue left me wondering if what Ransome had described as to what would happen to Elliott was actually happening. Also why would Elliot put Marge in such danger by taking her with him. From this standpoint, I did not think the ending was good. I also wondered why Elliot fought so hard when he finally learned the reasons they were after him and what he expected to gain from escaping.

Overall, I did enjoy reading this book. I can certainly see why it would not appeal to some. Will be interested in the further discussion on the questions posed above as well as others raised in our discussion.

I thought the Author's Note at the end was interesting.

Larry

Larry,

Thank you for your very good discussion of Vertical Run. You said about the same thing I would have said if I could have remembered and if I were able to express myself as well as you do.

We still are talking about the lovely lunch we had at Rays on the River with our Atlanta area friends.

---- Papa John

GOOD MORNING ALL:

This is a little premature, but I started VIRTICAL RUN last night & was eating Lorna Doones & page turning at 2:00 AM. I love it...be back later with full report. Certainly holds my interest. (When do I find out why they're after him?)

Mary-j

Papa John and All,

I have almost finished Vertical Run. I am sorry that i go such a late start on it. I hoe that everything is going to be better for me now and I can do more reading. When I get my new glasses, I amsure that I will be doing more.

Vertical Run is certainly hard to put down. It had held my interest completely.

More as soon as I have finished it.

Joan

Well, I've just finished, and so can address John's last two questions.

If you haven't yet finished the book, don't read the rest of this post....I must confess some confusion over some of the elements in the story...

1. Not sure why he would have to be killed to avoid spreading the virus since others had been isloated with the disease, and the effects noted....remember Ransom's looong description?....and they weren't killed...

2. Not sure at all, even at this point, about the heads, and their signifigance...the Viet Nam flashbacks provided some background, but heinous is heinous...were they real? Were they not?

3. Can see no way the fellow soldiers of Ransome would strip him naked...unsure of his punishment (maybe I'm thick)....were his feet tied? Must go back and look.

4. The altitude thing counteracting the virus was a bit much...also the physical of Marge by the "troops."

5. Loved the fake note at the end...thought for a minute through the pages that someone had marked my book!

6. A little transparent, the attempt at the end to push the story into a sequel.

7. Loved the photo of the author...although it's obviously a windy day, he appears to be tipping his hat.

8. Loved the "conversations" Elliot has with himself...except when he reppelled out the window.

9. Loved the humor---throwing away a pack of cigarettes, saying "those things will kill you," as he's in immenent danger of the same...

I thought the loose ends were accounted for, although some of them were a "stretch."

Thought the ending as clever as the rest of the book, but implausible.

Ginny

Ginny,

In response to your first observation above, I felt that the people who had contacted the disease would certainly have been isolated and I think it indicated they would die in a short time. Felt the reason Elliot would have to be killed related to the length of time since he was bitten before they went after him. Guess they had to kill him since they couldn't control his talking about his situation if he learned of it. In a situation where everything had to be controlled in the clandestine operations of this lab, he was an uncontrollable.

I thought the scenes with the heads were a little too much. The story said that the one was wax and that the others had come from a morgue. It stretches my imagination that all of these things could be done so quickly without any negative feedback to the bad guys.

Larry

Larry and Ginny --- Thank you for your observations and comments. I too had a little trouble with the heads. It served to make the whole thing more gruesome and for me it was gruesome enough. Fiction allows a lot of freedom and enables the imagination to go beyond reality to a certain point before it becomes pure fantasy. Anyway I am looking for more comments from all of you.

----- Papa John

Everyone,

I finished the book. It was good read and held my interest. I will give you more comments as soon as i can compose my thoughts on the book.

Joan

Larry: Thanks for clearing that up about the virus, because I was really wondering about that one. The author himself brought it up, and tried to push it off, but I was hanging on there for dear life...you are right.

Everyone: Several people have mentioned the violence. Did you feel the violence in the book was gratuitous or not?

I noticed that he tried to avoid killing the people at the last, but there were also passages where he seemed to feel some kind of "blood lust" or something....these were usually accompanied by flashbacks to Viet Nam.

Do you think he could have produced the same tension and drama without such a high body count? Did anyone keep track of HOW MANY were killed?

Where were Ransome's men supposed to be coming from, anyway? There were troops of them! What's a "heavy?"

I still do not think Ransome's own men would have stripped him naked!

Ginny

JOAN --- we are glad you finished the book and now we are waiting to hear what you think.

MARY-J --- We ALL wondered the same thing. "Why were they after him?" For anyone who stayed up eating Lorna Doones until the wee hours you deserve to know by now.

GINNY --- I would agree that the extent of the killing was probably not justified. I didn't make a body count. I think it could be kept down some without hurting the story. But then, I wasn't the author.

Thank you for your comments. Whose next?

---- Papa John

Ginny,

I think when the book talked about a "heavy" the author was referring to a bomb or something that would definitely destroy the building and be sure to kill Elliot. It would appear to the the ultimate last resort.

I had the same question in my mind as to where these people came from, but suppose you could ask the same question about the Watergate burglars and other gangs of people. I always have that same thought when I see an action movie where there are a lot of villians, such as a James Bond. Would hope all that is just fiction, but know that the military has Special Forces and then there is the CIA and other intelligence groups in the Government. Perhaps there are also private groups who can be purchased to perform such terrible things.

Did you feel the violence in the book was gratuitous or not? Yes, I felt that some of it was just too much for the sake of sensationalism, or to make the book read more like a movie script. Perhaps it is in there for the same reason that Teresa talked about with Ludlum in having certain sex scenes in his books, the publisher required them for sales purposes. This could have also explained what happened to the woman in this book who was raped.

I believe the book was making a statement about special forces who are trained to kill in that these skills and instincts are easily rekindled if the right buttons are pushed, as happened to Elliott. His survival instinct took hold. It was clear that revenge was on his mind thoughout most of the story, particularly with Ransome, although not the other men, who were just doing their assigned job. To me this explained the reason Elliott ordered the men to strip Ransome as a way to show total dominance over him and to humiliate him in front of his troops, perhaps like Elliott had been humiliated in Viet Nam. The action of stripping Ransome also showed the total lack of respect that his troops had for him and once they made the break from being under his command, it didn't seem too far-fetched for them to take that action.

Larry

Is everyone trying their hand at the Mystery Quiz that Joan Grimes has prepared for us. I had been working on it for several days and finally today sent in my answers. Had to guess at about 3 of the questions, so probably won't make sleuth again. It is fun.

Larry

OK -- Who is next? Thanks to those who have shared their thoughts about Vertical Run. Larry, I especially appreciate your grasp of details etc. and your explanations.

--- Papa John

Papa John,

Thanks for the nice comments. I enjoyed reading this book and I don't know how accurate my observations were, just opinions based on the story of I came away with after reading the book. Think that we probably each end up with a different perception from every book we read. Believe that is why these book club discussions are so interesting as each person's comments help us see a different aspect of the story.

Larry

Our traveler to England and France, MacRuth, has posted again this morning in the Travel Folder in the On the Road post#75

Send her a message.

Joan

I've just dropped in to say that if you enjoy mysteries, as I know you do, you might find the time to read a real life mystery which will be discussed in a brand-new book club, The Biography/Autobiography Book Club, on May 20.

It's a short book, so you have plenty of time.

Why would an honors graduate from a wealthy family, a star athlete, why???would this young man idealistically throw everything away and set out for a "Walden" like existence into Alaska?

Was he noble, or nuts?

What does this say about the differences in generations? Have we sacrificed our ideals to the dollar?

What happened to him, anyway?

Join us in the Biography/Autobiography Book Club May 20, and give us the benefit of your opinion.

Ginny

I know everyone has not yet commented on Vertical Run and am interested in their opinions....want to see which side you take on the "naked " issue! Is Larry right?

Ginny

GINNY,

As I said, I read Vertical Run so early in the game and then it went back to the library, that I have said about all I can say about it. I think there are a few more who haven't commented yet. -- Papa John

Papa John

'Vertical Run' a page turner, Ludlum with 300 pages of extraneous matter removed. educational No, Morally uplifting No, Entertaining Yes, Yes, Just sit back become credulous read and enjoy.

A fine choice for this months Mystery reading entertainment.

Cam

Thank you Cam for your observation. I liked your comment about it not being educational nor morally uplifting but its being entertaining. That is about it.

---- Papa John

Before it's too late to add my remarks about the book, just want to say that I enjoyed this rip-roaring thriller. I found the first two-thirds of the story quite credible. When we arrived at the display of heads and the bloody action which followed, it was time to suspend belief and (as Cam noted) just lean back in the easy chair and read to find out how the author gets us and David Elliot out of this predicament.

I thought the author was quite ingenious with the plot line. It seemed well-researched as to the devices and methods Elliot used to evade his pursuers. I really got caught up in how each of the hurdles they kept putting up was going to be surmounted.

The reasons behind the urgent need to nail him, not only by the agents, but also by his family and friends, kept me intrigued throughout the story. And it wasn't even over when it was over!! We got an epilogue, a memo and an author's note to keep us guessing right to the last page.

I hope our next mystery is as satisfying.

Jo

Papa John,

Jo's remark brings to mind that you need to choose someone to pick our next book. Maybe someone will volunteer if you don't have anyone in mind.

Joan

OK, folks, you read Joan's previous note? She said: "Jo's remark brings to mind that you need to choose someone to pick our next book. Maybe someone will volunteer if you don't have anyone in mind."

Who will volunteer? You can email me by clicking on my name or just sending it to my other e-mail address: jmuphre9@mail.idt.net

I'm waiting. JOAN -- how long do we have to pick out a new book for next month?

---Papa John

Did any of you mystery buffs read the lengthy article on Patricia Cornwell in the Vanity Fair for this month? It's the May issue that arrived in my mailbox yesterday.

I certainly got a different idea than I had about what kind of person she is by reading it. She had an unfortunate start in life by being abandoned by her mother, who was mentally ill, and being left on the doorstep of Ruth and Billy Graham. Her life is still very unorthodox and her personality seems tangled around that of Kay Scarpetta, the medical examiner heroine of her mystery stories.

If you can find a copy of Vanity Fair, it's an eye-opener of an article.

All right --- who would like to select a book for this next month? I asked Larry about it and didn't realize that he had selected our first book. He DID say "Maybe Ginny would pick one." What about it Ginny?

----- Papa John

Who, Me? Does it have to be paperback?

Would you all read The Partner ?? I've heard a lot about it...and it's all good so far!

If not, and the Book Club Online doesn't pick Lily White then I would nominate that one, or the That Day the Rabbi Left Town .

I'd say The Partner if you all can stand the heavy price??

Jo: Am going to get Vanity Fair . Sounds like a great article. Thanks!

Ginny

Papa John...

Any of Ginny's choices are fine with me. Just let us know.

OK let's go with That Day the Rabbi Left Town by Harry Kemelman. The Partner would be probably the best choice except that it isn't in paper back yet and at the Library there is a long, long, waiting list.

Is that OK Jo? If so Ginny's selection is: THAT DAY THE RABBI LEFT TOWN, by Harry Kemelman.

---- Papa John

Everyone,

So the Rabbi book is he next one. i am sorry that i haven't sais anything today but I am having problems here. I kept Sophie all day and wasn't able to get on line much after SeniorNet finally came back. She is at the stage where all ou can do is chase her and keep her out of things. Soon after she left wehad a tree fall across our driveway taking the phone lines with it. The phone company tells us they will repair them by 7:00P.M. tomorrow which means at 7:00PM they will start to repair them. I am at my mother's on my laptop typing this. I can't do much oon this laptop. I can read the messages fine because I can adjust the print so that I can read it. Typing a message is another thing because the print is so small.

You'll hear more from me when the phone company gets around to repairing our two phone lines.

Joan

Joan: Talk about perseverance!! You're having your own Odyssey !! Good thing you weren't standing under the tree!

A huge limb here fell on one of our neighbors, believe it or not, and broke his back! So I'm glad you are all OK...

Ginny

Hope the Kemelman book is not too light for you all, but he's usually a happy read.

I love the "Rabbi" books. And a "light read" is what I most enjoy. I see enough of the violence and blood and gore on the six o'clock news that I don't need it when I want to relax.

Jeanne: I've loved the Rabbi books, too, and have started this one, but am only a few pages into it.

I kinda wish I had given it more thought, and recommended one I had read, and KNEW was good, but it will make for good discussion even if everyone hates it.

Ginny

I'm afraid I have been remiss about posting my observations about Vertical Run. This was another page turner that I truly enjoyed. When I enjoy something so well, I find it hard to analyze author's motives, etc. I read for enjoyment and don't want to be bothered getting down to the nitty gritty of picking the book apart. Especially with mysteries. These are my escape reading, alot like some do with romance novels. But mysteries also keep my mind interested with details of who done it, what's going to happen next, etc. Good choice Papa John, and there was alot of violence, and a high body count. But how do we know that this is not the norm in such clandestine operations in life? We don't! So I was not offended or disturbed too much. Now if it were another type of book, then I would object.

I get to the library as soon as I hear of another Grisham or Clancey book and am usually first or so on the list. I totally enjoyed The Partner. A little different from his usual style of plot. But very good. Ruth

RUTH --- Thank you for your remarks about Vertical Run. Most everyone enjoyed reading it in spite of the violence. There is no question but what it was a story with action and suspense. I am looking forward to this next book. Actually I haven't read any of the "Rabbi" books so this will be my first one.

----- Papa John

Papa John,

The rabbi stories are a light quick read for the most part but you will enjoy reading one of them. I have read most of them but not this one. I am looking forward to reading the book. I would like ofr us to read a book soon that is not just a light read, but right now a light read seems to be almost too much for me with all that have been going on in my life.

My words on Vertical Run will be in my next post. I have it in my word processor now but still need to add a few words.

Joan

You know,for a "light" book, this thing has some surprising insights. He certainly knows some of his stuff...I can't speak for all of it, but I'm learning things I didn't know, and I actually had to look up a word: "poetaster."

I like that in a book.

Ginny

Vertical Run was very well written. The plot was tight and constructed well. The book held my interest from the first paragraph until the end.

I had some doubts about anything like this really happening but I am not really familar enough with the kind of things that huge ccorporations get involved in to make a judgement as to the possibility of such a thing happening. I felt that if such a situation did exist, that a person who was trained in the ways of combat as the hero was would react in the ways that he did. I enjoyed every minute of the chase.

I thought that the loose ends were tied up quite nicely. Maybe the heads were not really needed and were a little unbelievable. But this situation did not really detract from my overall reaction that the author constructed a well planned , well executed plot.

The book ,in my opinion can certainly be classifiied as a mystery. There are many kinds of mystery stories. They do not have to fit the four major genres. It has a crime involved. It is a thriller in the best sense of the word. . It has many dead bodies in it.

It was a good read and a good choice for the club .

Joan

Thank you Joan for your comments. I'm looking forward to reading That Day the Rabbi Left Town by Harry Kemelman.

--- Papa John

Hi Everyone,

I went to Barnes and Noble yesterday and bought That Day The Rabbi Left Town.

I am looking forward to starting it.

Joan

That Day the Rabbi Left Town wasn't available at our local branch but is available at other branches and I ordered it and it should be here by Monday. I'm looking forward to reading it. I'm just finishing Playing for the Ashes by Elizabeth George, well written, but long and for me a slow read.

---- Papa John

Papa John,

I loved Playing for the Ashes. It was the first Elizabeth George that I read. I went right out and bought every one of her books and read them all. I love her books.

Joan

"Poetaster?" Come on, now, everyone, fess up!

How many of you would have to look that one up? After the first chapter or so, this one seems to have all the redeeming qualities of the other Rabbi books.

I do enjoy learning new things.

Joan: I don't know how you've been doing these discussion things, but if I'm to lead the next one, how about leave Papa John's questions up there?

I like them.

Ginny

Ginny,

All right if that is what you want I'll leave them up.

Joan

Ginny: I had to look up "Poetaster," too. It seems there are weeks when all sorts of words I don't recall ever having heard before suddenly pop up. Last week it was "hegemony"! I haven't yet been able to smoothly work it into a conversation, so it's not "mine" yet!!

I love the Rabbi Small books. I'm so sorry the author has died and the series is over. I always looked forward to the next one. "Light" if you mean fun to read, learn a lot of things I didn't know in a pleasant, unstressful way, and look forward to picking it up - very "stress reducing" reading, I think. Everything I look forward to in books I read. Good choice, Ginny. I'm looking forward to the discussion.

œ...jane

Jane: That was nicely said! I didn't know he had died! I'm so sorry. Was it recent? They're big on the new paperback at the local Barnes and Noble.

You're so right, too! We must work these new words into our vocabularies! Good idea. Now I have to go look up hegemony--it's ringing a distant, faint bell, but it's sort of a SAT preparation test bell, and that was a LOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago!

I wonder if we need a "Word of the Week" column in the B&L??

Didn't they have some kind of build your vocabulary thing in the Reader's Digest??

"Look forward to picking it up..." that's a very GOOD definition of an enjoyable book!

Love your signature!

Ginny

Ginny - You haven't been paying attention! Boots has a word-a-day in tidbits, complete with pronunciation, definition and examples of use! I just know with all your "spare time" you could stop by and visit there!

Jeanne: OOPS!! Sorry, I've not been paying attention, you're right! Mea culpa!

Ginny the formerly hegemonic

Ginny: I went searching for the news on the death of H. Kemelman. I'd read it in the rec.arts.mystery newsgroup , and I found this from the middle of December (about 12/19/96):
Harry Kemelman, 88, the author of the Rabbi Small books, died late Sunday evening. The Marblehead, Mass. resident died of renal failure in his home.
œ...jane

Jane: Oh, my goodness, then it's a recent death! Thank you for that.

I hate it that there won't be any more...

Ginny....going to look him up on Amazon, and see if anything is there! I don't remember seeing a thing about it...you must be a close reader...thought I was!

So, why don't you vocabulary buffs give the definitions to the rest of us who are frantically trying to ingest a godzillion pages of information in a matter of days so we can keep up in the discussion groups.

I'm terrible about skipping over the unclear stuff. Until I was in my late 30s (just recently), I pronounced nonplussed as "nonpulsed" (it still makes sense to me that way) and clandestine as "candlelestine" --"by candlelight" was my thinking. --Marie

Jane, Thanks for the information on Kemelman's death. I was not aware of it. This shows that I am spending to much time rying to learn new things with this infernal machine when It will never do me any good whatsoever except that I love learning new things. then when I am with other people I find that they know nothing at all about computers and aren't trying to learn.

I'm sorry for the digression. thanks for telling us about Kemelman. those people, that I mentioned , who know nothing about computers probably never heard of him either.

I feel like I have lost an old friend.

Joan

Joan:

The Rabbi Small book we're now reading is my introduction to Kemelman's books, yet I can already sympathize with you on his death. It took about 40 pages for me to realize how much I was enjoying his very relaxed, unhurried storytelling. What a wonderful change after so many contemporary "page turners".

I look forward to curling up with this book after the rest of the house is asleep; it's like a cup of warm milk. And I feel especially warm and toasty when I realize I have a whole series of them to read.

Many thanks to you or whoever it was who chose it for the club this month.

--Marie

Dear Marie,

I am glad that you are enjoying the Rabbi book. you really do have many hours of pleasure ahead of you as you read the whole series.

The thanks for chosing the book goes to Ginny who chose this new book for us to read.

Joan.

And here I was, terrified that it would be too "light" for everyone.

I'd really like to know more about Harry Kemelman. I'm going to try a search later today.

I did copy two reviews of this book, on a scale of 1 -10. One review gave it an 8, and one gave it a 1.

Maybe when we get a little closer to our reading date, I'll post them here, and one or more of us can submit a review to the same source.

Anyway, when you have two readers, you have two opinions, and that's the whole point of a discussion.

Ginny

Click Here To go to the Upcoming Books folder in the International Adventurers Book Club for-what else? Upcoming books. It's a thrill a minute here folks.

trvlnmn

I got That Day the Rabbi Left Town today from the library. I'm still finishing on another book but I'll get to it in a day or two. Looking forward to reading the first of these books for me and what I hear from you all (Southern expression meaning all of you) I believe I will enjoy.

---- Papa John

Here are two reviews of That Day the Rabbi Left Town from Amazon, and I don't agree with either one:

A reader, 03/16/97, rating=8: Another book for Rabbi Small fans If you are like me and read all of previous Rabbi Small books, you will be happy that there's another one. Though this wasn't as fun as the others, it was still an enjoyable reading.If you have never read Rabbi Small mystery before, I strongly suggest that you start with his first book. This way you can truly enjoy his books. I got hooked and I had to read every book he wrote.

A reader, 09/07/96, rating=1: The Day the Rabbi Left Town Save yourself the misery! Don't even think about reading this book if you're looking for a good mystery! Don't even read it if you're willing to settle for a so-so mystery! I read to page 144 and then I finally gave it up. It was a real lesson in boredom! No one had even died yet! And the book is only 245 pages long! I've concluded that publishers are willing to print any kind of junk as long as it is written by a well known author.Well, they fooled me this time--I bought the book--figured that a guy with that many bestsellers could write. Live and learn I guess. I won't be picking up any more Kemelman titles!

Look for similar books by subject:

It just goes to show you that if you have two different people, you have two different opinions. I'd really like for us to send in a review to them.

For the first time in my life, I think I know WHO DONE IT! Am very excited to see if I'm right.

Cannot understand for the life of me why there is not more on the Internet on Harry Kemelman. There's more on Helene Hanff than he, and he's written many books, and nominated for awards, too...

Ginny

Ginny... Here are some words I've had to look up in my reading lately: minatory, marmite, puissance, rebarbative, pederasts, anodyne and charabanc. Found these on a list I'd made to look up later. I don't know what author challenged me this way. I can let a couple go by, but when I keep running across them just have to check them out. Often I think I KINDA' know them but have to be sure.

Jo

JO: In the event I need to look up a word, I write the word in the inside back cover of the book, along with its definition. My books by EF Benson are wallpapered with things I've looked up. What a vocabulary that man had! I'm like you, I'll let one or two go by, but they nag at me, if I can't guess them.

I do enjoy being challenged by the author if it's natural; if it fits his style, not put there to impress like those (to me) awful archaeologist and her husband mysteries.

I'm though with the Rabbi book, and I was right! Can't believe it!! Wavered a bit between two characters at the last, but ended up right for the wrong reason...

Joan: I'd like to add the following thoughts to Papa John's excellent questions above:

7. Did anything in the book surprise you?

8. Were you ever conscious of the author's hand in the book, or were you caught up in the story?

9. The "Eddie Marie" principle: did you learn anything from the book, and has it added anything to your life?

10. Will you plan to read another Rabbi book, if you haven't read them all?

11. What rating, on a scale of 1-10, would YOU give the book?

I think that's a minyan plus 1 !

Ginny

Okay, Ginny, I'm impressed. Couldn't even FIND that one in my dictionary!!

Jo

Jo: HA!! Got that from Harry Kemelman!

Happy Happy Birthday, Papa John!!

From all your Mysterious Friends!!

Wow!

What thoughtful people!

It has been a great birthday!

P.J.

I'm reading the Rabbi book but I haven't arrived at any murder yet.

--- Papa John

Papa John,

Maybe that is the mystery or "why the Rabbi left town".

Larry

Oh, Larry, Good one!

(your post#307)

--Marie (lol)(hope this means laughed out loud)

Thanks, Marie. Sometimes I just have a wierd sense of humor.

Larry

Well, tomorrow's the big day! The questions are up, and I'm dying to know....he he he....if you were able to guess who done it and why??

Ginny

Oh, good! I'm the first one here today! Our discussion of Harry Kemelman's That Day the Rabbi Left Town is now open!

Will be interested in hearing from those who have never read a Kemelman as to whether they liked it, and from those who have, how it measured up??

I've always liked the Rabbi books: they're easy reads, and while you're gracefully reading along, you learn something about Judaism, and a few other things, besides. He's got the academic community pegged.

Since there are 11 questions in the heading, I thought I'd take the last five first, as I want to hear your opinions about the structure before I commit there.

6. I thought the ending was OK; I don't think he tried to trick the reader; I was able to figure out the murderer ( a first for me) so I can't say he threw a bunch of stuff in there at the last.

7. I was extremely surprised at the casual use of the term "dago" on page 207! As far as I know, this is a first for Kemelman. I think this book got a lot of things off his chest; that's the impression I got, anyway.

8. I'm afraid I was always conscious of the author's hand....especially in the beginning of the book as he struggled to set the scene. He's best in the character of Rabbi Small; other than that, you can almost see him plotting. You don't get totally immersed in the book.

9. I learned a great deal from the book about Judaism which I did not know. I'm one of these people who thinks knowledge is power, and want to know all I can. I appreciated the definitions of "pil-pul," among others.

10. I've read all the Rabbi books, and since he has died, guess I won't have another to read.

Will suspend my rating till I answer Papa John's excellent questions 1-6.

If you did guess the murderer, how did you figure it out??

Ginny

I guessed the culprit, too. But only because he was the one with the best alibi for the times involved. I was hoping it would be his mother, ah well...

The use of the word "Dago" did get my attention but was not troublesome to me because it was spoken by one of the characters, and could have been meant to shade his character.

Later (p.235), however, I was somewhat taken aback by the author's saying, "The driver ... was African-American, and truculent." Put this way, it sounds like a natural combination--the race and the attitude. Just surprised that it wasn't edited to something that would say that the driver, who happened to be an African-American, was truculent.

I very much enjoyed learning something about Judaism. I enjoyed the leisurely pace of the novel so much that it didn't occur to me until I read LJ's post and Larry's reply that no crime was committed for almost 3/4 of the book.

When we rate a book, do we do it in context of the genre? I couldn't rate it very high on a scale that included Salinger books, but could give it a very nice score if compared to just the "cozy" mystery genre.

I liked it and look forward to reading his whole series.

--Marie

I finally got the book from the library yesterday and have about a third of it read. Do enjoy the information it contains and the development of the characters. Sounds like the Rabbi's wife was quite a character and probably called the shots. Did anyone else get that impression?

Larry

Larry: I was surprised at how strident Miriam's character was at the beginning, too, but it seemed she sort of toned it down as the book went on.

Marie: Yes, it was the times that made me think he was the murderer, too, although, I, too, wavered for a bit between him and his mother.

I missed the African- American reference altogether.

I think if we were to rate the book, it would be versus all other mysteries, don't you think??

Now to answer Papa John's other questions:

1. I thought it was well written in parts. It seemed to have fits and starts. When he's in his Rabbi mode, he's really good, but it seemed it was spotty, to me.

2. It held my interest in parts, then lost it.

3. Was the plot believable? Yes, I thought the plot was believable: I can understand the motivation of the murderer, and the irony that Dean Cardleigh reveals in the last pages adds a special twist, I thought.

Typical of life; sort of a comment on taking a narrow view...

Ginny

When will the next Mystery novel for discussion be named? Does the group choose or do the hosts? I'd like it if we knew the name of the next book pretty soon so that I could schedule my reading for all the clubs' upcoming books. --Marie

Marie: I don't know. Joan, when are we supposed to select a new mystery??

I keep thinking about the "Cohen" thing and all its variations. I really didn't know that. I've known some Cohens; wonder if that's a burden?

Ginny

Dear Ginny,

You are supposed to choose the next person who is to name our next book. We are waiting for you to choose.

I just returned from a weekend at my son's in North Carolina. I have a terrible cold . I am going to bed now I'll talk to you all tomorrow.

Joan

Ginny--Please choose Stephanie to select the next book! I've been reading her posts about some mysteries she's read and know she would steer us to something well-written plus amusing. She's been talking about some that she says are really funny. Don't you think it's time for something funny--intentionally funny, I mean?
--Marie

To whom it may concern, y'all,

I have a suggestion for a future read in the mystery folder.

In the Presence of the Enemy, Elizabeth George.

I have read the first few chapters and it is an excellent book. And English mystery said to be "....rich and addictively readable....elegant and unsettling,....classy and caustic.....(USA Today.)

A fire brand page turner. (me) trvlnmn

Well, gosh, Travelin' Man: I vote for your choice, since you were kind enough to suggest it, and Stephanie, how about choosing the one after that?

This is great!

Joan, I'm sorry you are sick, I hope you will feel better soon...

Well, if you're all through with all you have to say on this book, what rating would you give it on a scale of 1-10??

Ginny

Ginny,

Patrick gets to pick the person who chooses the next book if he is choosing the June book. that is the way it works. The person who chooses the book for the month chooses the person who is the next chooser.

Thanks for the kind words about my health. I am still a bit under the weather. I am sure the cold will wear itself out in a few days.

Joan

Dear Patrick,

I am so pleased that you chose In the Presence of the Enemy by Elizabeth George. It is just out in Paperback. I bought it last week but haven't started it yet as I haven't had time. George is one of my favorite mystery writers. I really enjoy her writing. I hope everyone here will too.

I'll put it up top now!!

Joan

Thanks,

Joan

THAT DAY THE RABBI LEFT TOWN

Well, last night I finished it. As I have said, I am a slow reader. However I found it easy to read and quite interesting. I particularly enjoyed the lessons about Judaism in New England, the conversations among the men about their religion, the choosing of a new Rabbi, and the social life which is described in the book. This held my attention in the early chapters. Just as I was about to lose interest a new spark caught my attention with the character Michael Canty, alias Malcolm Kent who eventually managed to get himself murdered toward the end of the book. For a long time I thought he would be the murderer, taking someone out who would have found out about his never having been to college.

The style of writing is a little too matter of fact and it didn't always hold my attention. The plot was believable and the loose ends accounted for well enough. I wasn't surprised but I did like the revelation that Dean Cardleigh knew of Kent's subterfuge. The ending was OK. On a scale from 1 to 10 I would give it about a 7.

--- I am on my way to the Library this morning to pick up Elizabeth George's In the Presence of the Enemy. Planning to take with us to Hilton Head. We are leaving in the morning to spend a week there so I won't be back until the end of the month.

--- Papa John

Papa John:

Well, a week in Hilton Head, one of my favorite places ever, would just cure whatever ails anyone.

Do you eat at the resaurant overlooking the harbor at the lighthouse? I love their Daufuskee Crab sandwitches...can't think of the name.

I think I'll give the book a 7 rating, too. I like Kemelman; it wasn't his best, but it's better than a lot of others. When he gets his style going, it's such a comforting read, but this one had a lot of plot manuevering in it, I thought.

Am really looking forward to the Elizabeth George.

Ginny

I stopped at the library this afternoon and picked up the Elizabeth George book. While waiting in line to check out I read the fly leaf and realized this was one of the audio books my wife and I had listened to on a car trip. Just hope I can remember enough about it. It is a pretty complicated story as I recall.

Have not made too much further progress in reading the Rabbi book. Hope to read a few more chapters tonight.

Larry

Well, gosh you guys, I get to choose the next book picker. And I din't even know it was my duty. I shall keep it a surprise who I have in mind for one more day, maybe two.

Joan, sorry to hear that you are under the weather, but then the weather has not been anything to shout about any way. Get well soon.

trvlnmn

I think I may have liked our Rabbi book better than most of the group. Maybe because it was my first time to read a Kemelman book and all the characters were new to me. Anyway, I give it an 8. I would have liked an earlier murder--and maybe several.

--Marie

Marie,

I loved the book. I'll comment more later today but I really enjoyed it . I am so sorry that it is the last. Rabbi Small is like and old friend to me. I will miss him. I wonder if someone else will try to carry the series on. That happens sometimes. I don't think I want that done.

Joan

Patrick.

thanks for the comments on my health. I am better thank you.

I am so glad you chose In the Presence of the Enemy. I can't wait to start it. Iam trying to finish Angela's Ashes first though.

Joan

Marie-Would you like to pick the next mystery? The one for July? If I remember right you wanted a funny one. Or at least less serious. I agree we need a comic relief. You have plenty of time to choose. Let us know what you think. <.p> trvlnmn

Patrick-- Gee, just when I came here to fling some sarcasm at you, you flatter me by offering me the next pick. Yes. I'd love to pick out the next book. I can have a title for you during the first week in June. Is that okay?

Now I feel bad saying things like, "Gee, thanks for the 623-page novel. Those of us who read in all the clubs have been looking for something that would fill those empty hours we have." (Just joshing, good-natured smile!)(She lied.)

I got it today and, seriously, it looks super. I already know it's not formulaic, which will be a nice step up from what I've been reading.

--Marie

I can't help it.What 623 page novel?? What have I missed??

A Suitable Boy?

Why am I too lazy to read back further in the posts??

Ginny

Ginny,

Our next book, In the Presence of the Enemy has 623 pages. Letme assure you that it will be a fast moving read. All of her books are. It never takes me long to read one of Elizabeth Georges books. I have been known, several times, to sit up all night reading one of her books.

Joan

I finally finished the Rabbi book today. Really don't know to much to say about it other than I got the feeling that Kemelman was resting on his laurels and past reputation. It was an easy read and certainly the opposite from Virtual Run that rather kept a person breathless. I got the impression that the murder was almost an after-thought and not very important to the book as evidenced by its late appearance in the story. I do agree with Ginny that I learned from the description of what a Jewish Rabbi is and is not.

I was struck by the remark that the Rabbi and his wife had a lack of friends after being in the same position for so many years. I also expected to see something develop from the Sarah McBridge character. She seemed to be built up as important but didn't seem to be a part of the story, unless I missed something.

I was also surprised that the Rabbi kept canceling his class on a moments notice and certainly had a light schedule. Is this typical of a private school?

After they identified the murderer why wouldn't they have arrested him immediately. This scene seemed totally unbelieveable.

Larry

Well, Larry, as per usual, your insights dazzle. Must go back now and look again. I missed the constant cancelling and the murderer not being arrested...

I missed that about the lack of friends, too.

Back to the book,

Ginny

Ginny,

These were very minor points, but things I noticed as I read through the book. Don't feel you need to react to them as I was just scraping the bottom of the barrel to come up with my thoughts on this book. Based on this book along, I probably would not read another of this series. However, based on your comments on the previous ones, I might. Just didn't think this was a strong book. Not a criticism of the selection, just my feeling.

Larry

Hi everyone!
I've picked out the book for our July discussion (which we start on July 15th). Before I name it, and everyone says, "Oh, no, I hate stuff where animals talk--or even think--out loud. It's silly and it's fantasy!" let me assure you that these cats do NOT talk; these cats' thoughts are NOT revealed to us!

The Mystery Club Selection
for discussion
beginning July 15th is

The Cat Who Said Cheese
...by Lilian Jackson Braun
This book was published in paperback in March 1997 ($6.50 US; $8.50 CAN) and seems to be stocked in all the book stores out here.
I've read all of Ms. Brauns' "The Cat Who...." series except this one. The books are gentle, literate, and slightly eccentric in the nicest of ways. A cozy read.

I understand that I get to name the person who will be invited to pick the book for August. This will come as no surprise since I'm constantly going on and on about what a super judge of mysteries she is:

Stephanie Hochuli,
please say you will name
the Mystery Club book for August!
--Marie

Okay Everyone,

I would like to slow things down here a little. Lets not get way ahead here in naming books to be read. Let's stop with Marie's selection and wait at least until the end of June to name the August Book. Stephanie please go ahead and let us know if you will name the August book for us and wait a little while to tell us what it is.

I love, Marie's choice for July. The cat books are favorites of mine too!! Those of you who haven't read any of these are in for a treat also. These are very clever books.

There have been very few reactions to the Rabbi book posted. Please lets discuss the books. I think the general idea about reading this genre is that it is only escape reading and there is nothing to discuss. I don't agree with that idea. Most mysteries can be read superficially and enjoyed but if you examine them you will find much there to discuss.

Larry , you mentioned that you thought the author was resting on his laurels. What I think happened here is that we read a book where the author assumed that everyone already knew his main character, the Rabbi from the previous books. With some of you this was not true.

I have stated before that I liked the book very much. The Rabbi is an old friend of mine. Now that Larry has mentioned it I can see how someone might feel who had not previously read the Rabbi books.

Each of these books has taught me something that I did not know about the practice of Judaism. They have discussed the workings and conflicts faced in a Synagogue. They have taught me what the Rabbi's position is in all of this. Thus I did not think it strange that the author mentioned that the Rabbi and his wife had few friends.

I like what Ginny said in her comment number 3. She wrote. Was the plot believable? Yes, I thought the plot was believable: I can understand the motivation of the murderer, and the irony that Dean Cardleigh reveals in the last pages adds a special twist, I thought.

Typical of life; sort of a comment on taking a narrow view...

I think the last part of that sums up not only this Rabbi book but all of them--Typical of life; sort of a comment on taking a narrow view...

I feel that in each of the books that we read here thatexamining the author's purpose is something that we need to do.

There was some discussion of the the crime coming so late in the book, almost an afterthought. Why do you think this was done. Was there a reason?

Joan

Joan: that's a wonderful idea, to examine the author's purpose. I need to think about Kemelman's purpose in this last book...but I did think it was interesting how we get so caught up in our own version of the truth we would even kill, when we don't know the whole story...can't see all sides.

Miller lacked the moral strength to just say, "leave me alone." Moral strength is apparently hard to come by, in some situations. He didn't have the strength to leave Mama, much less do anything else.

Larry: on the arrest thing: they did ask him to come down to the station house, and when he said, "Am I under arrest," they said, well, protective custody. ..so pack up and "we'll go along," since he hadn't been Mirandized. I don't know how realistic that is.

I got the impression that the Rabbi himself was creating a department. It's hard to realize how such a small class could be counted as part of the regular curriculum...there's usually a minimum number...the constant cancelling...probably would work out to be a problem.

Where did you see about the friends? Can't find it anywhere...

I agree about the Sarah character...much time spent developing her...for no reason...just fizzled out. Also the new Rabbi's wife Susan...not typical...fizzled out.

I do look forward to Marie's book choice! Have never read a "cat" book. Lillian Jackson Braun lives not far from me, and is apparently quite the colorful character...have always wondered what the fuss is about, and know if Marie likes it, it's good, as she's quite the brain herself. Nice to know ahead, too.

So, the question is: what was Kemelman's purpose in writing this book? What do you say??

Ginny

Ginny, The statement about not having many friends was in the 13th paragraph of chapter 15. I had made a note on my bookmark paper when I read it as it seemed an odd situation. In protestant churches I have always felt that most of the members considered the minister(s) as a friend. Can understand why a minister or rabbi could not get too close to any one member of the congregation, but surely would consider some of them as friends.

I felt the purpose of the book was to convey additional information about the Jewish faith probably foremost and then to tell an interesting story. While I did't think it was a strong book, it was a very comfortable book to read. I did find my interest lessening toward the end and was glad to get to the last page. Am still bothered about the development of several of the characters, which didn't seem to add to the story or play any important role, but just filled up the pages. I also feel another purpose of the author was to get another book in the bookstores. Nothing wrong with that, but wonder if he was running out of steam with this book.

If you want to read a book that doesn't run out of steam, be sure to read the book by Mikal Gilmore called Shot in the Heart. The Biography book club is reading it in a couple of months and it is something else. Am just about to finish it, but don't think I will forget it.

Larry

Although I finished the Rabbi book days ago, I think about it a lot, and find myself mentioning things I learned about Judaism to other people and asking questions about that faith.

So if that was his objective, he surely succeeded.

I enjoyed being "in his class". He made it seem so real by describing the details of the seating arrangements and having the characters say things that were smart and dumb and off the subject--just like in a real discussion group. In almost every scene of the book, I had--and still have--a clearly defined mental image of the scene, the characters, and the tone of voices thanks to Kemelman's patient details.

Wouldn't it be grand to take a class in ethics from Rabbi Small! Lucky me, I'm just starting on this series and most of you are finishing up.

Joan, doesn't the pace of the Rabbi book remind you of the Cat Who... books? I hope they (the Rabbi series) are all like that.
(Incidentally, Joan, it made my day to learn that you read the Cat books, too! It lends credibility to their literary standing!)

--Marie

Dear Marie,

Thanks for the complememt but I am not under any illusions that my reading a series lends it any literary credibility. I'm just like everyone else. I read what I like!

The cat who books are filled with humor and that is wonderful to me.

Yes the Cat who books do have the same pace as the Rabbi books. All of the Rabbi books have that same quality. That is one of the things that I like about both of these series.

Joan

Yes, Marie, you're right; there is a voice and tone and pace to the Rabbi books, and I think that's why his fans enjoy reading them.

Larry: Now, I knew you'd know just the reference! I looked back, and saw what you meant about the lack of friends. I'm thinking, and I may be wrong, but this is one issue I think Kemelman addressed in an earlier book: the difficulty of finding true friends....at the same time, in real life, I know some clergy with the same problems; they'd not say so, of course, but it must be hard when people change their manner when you are there...you know what I mean? Also it would be hard to discuss the day's job with a member of the congregation, and so some clergy of many different faiths tend to chat amongst themselves, and many times they are geographically divided...of course, for every example you can cite, you'd find a million exceptions...Kemelman is really "on" about committies, tho.

I'm wondering whether the Rabbi books are more mystery or character development? As many have stated, the murder didn't take place until the book was almost over.

Is this common? I'm trying to think of another example....a more famous author...did Agatha Christie always have the murder first??

Ginny

We got back today from our week on Hilton Head Island. It was great! A very beautiful place. I have read over half of our book for June and am really enjoying it. Elizabeth George's In the Presence of the Enemy. I enjoyed reading the various comments on the Rabbi book.

--- Papa John

Papa John,

I am so happy that you are back. Glad that you had a good time. I hope that you will go into the Travel folder to The Accounts of Travel in North America and tell u about it in detail.

I am glad that you like In the Presence of the Enemy.

Joan

Ginny, Just read your message concerning the Rabbi books and their late introducton of the murder. Funny you should mention that because I just read a Father Koessler book by William Kinzle, Masquerade, and it did the same thing. I was beginning to doubt that the crime would ever occur. At the same time, it was an interesting book about the changes in the Catholic church and I did enjoy it. Pretty informative in an easy to read format. I can't believe anyone else reads the Cat Who books. They are a treat when you want a quick read. My recently deceased mother started us on them and we consider them great fun. Can't wait to get the latest paperback of Elizabeth George. Just finished two her old ones-Playing for the Ashes and Well Schooled in Murder. Both very good!

Anne,

Welcome!!..

I am so glad to see you here.

Your comments on the William Kinzle book go along with the idea that maybe the Rabbi book and the Kinzle book are both teaching about a certain subject and using a simple, easy, and interesting format to do it.

Isn't Elizabeth George great? I really have njoyed all of her books.

Joan

Ann!! Welcome, welcome!

We're so glad to have you here...I've read some of Kinzle's books and enjoyed them immensely.

You know, one of the best books I ever read was The Nun in the Closet. Have any of you read that? You won't believe who the author is! (That's a mystery in itself)!!

Ginny

Joan, Yes, I love Elizabeth George. I will try to get those Atlanta authors for you when I finally return to the local library. I moved away from one that I liked immensely en trying to get to the newest local for months. Now that retirement has struck, I must stop buying every book that appeals to me or I won't have any traveling money. Ginny, The Nun in the Closet? Another new title for me to research. Thanks! Also, thanks for the welcome messages.

Dear Ann,

I really need to do the library thing too. I just love to own books.

I will appreciate your efforts concerning the Atlanta authors.

BTW, I noticed what you said about wishing you were in the Smokies in another discussion. My son lives just outside Sylva, North Carolina. He is a doctor and works in emergency medicine at Haywood Regional Hospital in Waynesville, NC. I visit there often. It is a beautiful area.

Joan

Ann--Another "Cat who..." reader! Hooray!

"Presence of the Enemy" is my first E.George book. Why an I having so much trouble getting into it? Everyone here in the BC who like all the other books I like like George, so I was sure I would. (The sentence isn't that bad if read quickly.) Are Simon & Deborah St. James and Deborah's father, who seems to be the butler/cook, and Helen Clyde ongoing characters in George's novels? Their household is so interesting, I hated when George got back to the main story line.

I really like George's writing style. I think I'm just turned off by Charlotte's mother. I'm only on page 50 so maybe haven't caught the rhythm of it yet.
--Marie .

Marie,

Yes, Simon & Deborah St. James and Deborah's father, who seems to be the butler/cook, and Helen Clyde are ongoing characters in George's novels.

Since you aren't familiar with the characters it is taking you longer to get into the book. If you had read the other books it would move faster at the beginning. It should pick up for you soon.

Joan

Joan--Thanks for the explanation. This cheers me no end to learn that the very characters I liked right off are ongoing and I can get to know them leisurely. --Marie

I am almost finished with In the Presence of the Enemy. This is my second George book. Very interesting. Sometimes a little too much detail which sometimes make it go a little more slowly than I would like.

--- Papa John

The one thing I really noticed and enjoyed in Presence of the Enemy was the lack of details, the never ending descriptions that take up a lot of words and thus make a book a book. I liked that every word, every paragraph had meaning and purpose and held my attention. Most books I read I find are like most TV shows, you can leave out parts and not miss a thing,. But George writes with purpose. I'll be anxious to get this discussion going.

trvlnmn

I finished In the Presence of the Enemy and it was VERY good right down to the end. I'll admit, it surprised me.

--- Papa John

My you can really see that great minds go in the same direction. I am excited to see that George's books are being discussed. I just finished 3 of them. The first I read was Playing for the Ashes which was about a year ago. She has a real fine hand for complex plots but sometimes the good guys finish last. I will look fast for the current selection to see if I can join you all.

Good to see you back, St. Patrick

Lorraine,

We are glad to have you jon us here. I hope you find the book and get in on the discussion.

Joan

Tomorrow is June 15th!

-- Papa John

I enjoyed reading In the Presence of the Enemy and that is what really counts. Sometimes I want to read a little faster and there is a LOT of description in her books with details which probably really add to the whole but which slow me down some. The plot was very well done, I thought. I WAS surprised who who had committed the crime and I thought that there was a lot of suspense which kept me reading on and on. I am interested in reading what others think.

--- Papa John

Oh, please don't say who the culprit is as I haven't finished the book yet. But I do want to hear everything else you think about the book. I will finish it within the next 24 hours.

(Why is everyone posting in italics?)
--Marie

Hi Joan, I have tried to contact you several times but am having trouble with the online server so "once more into the fray". The names of my two Atlanta mystery writers are Kathy Trochek and Cynthia Sprinkle. Try them. Light but fun reads. I have yet to pick the latest Cat Who book but will do so soon. Yes, I love North Carolina,too. We were lucky enough to have our college student granddaughter visit us in March and took her up to see the Biltmore Estate plus Black Mountain. Its so beautiful up there. I just want to get out of this trafficky area of Atlanta but for now will stay put as I am having heart surgery next week and do appreciate having some of the best doctors and hospitals available to me. Keep me in your prayers on June 25!

For Marie, Yes, George is different but challenging. Wait 'til you read Playing For The Ashes! Whoa! So far, from my reading, she does use the same main group of characters which I like. Sort of like Colin Dexter's Inspector Morse and Martha Grimes' Richard Jury. You have read them, I assume? I find myself more involved in mysteries or anything based on a true happenings more and more lately. Also, history. Just got back from a small family reunion in Indiana and will now prepare for the big event next week (heart surgery). Guess my reading will slow down a bit for awhile but I can still watch the Atlanta Braves when they are on. Yes, I must confess to being a diehard baseball fan,too. I crochet and read while the games are on but I wouldn't miss one for anything. A game of statistics! Its crazy! But I love it!

Dear Anne,

Thanks for the names of the authors. Also thanks for telling me about the heart surgery. you are definitely in my thoughts and prayers. I am sure that you will be fine with all of the wonderful facilities and good doctors that are available to you.

I understand your liking baseball. I no longer go to games nor to I watch it on TV but I like baseball. It is a very interesting game.

Keep in touch. I am thinking about you.

Joan

Ann, What type of heart surgery are you having. There are quite a few of us here on SeniorNet who have had various types of heart surgery. Other than the seriousness of operating on the heart, I found it to not be a very painful operation as there are no or few nerves in the chest area where they operate. I will be keeping you in my thoughts and prayers and looking forward to your return to our discussions.

Larry

Anne:

I, too, will be thinking of you next week and remembering you in my prayers. My husband just went through quadruple bypass and we were so happy for the support of family and friends.

Please keep us posted.

Pat

PS I was through Biltmore House last week with our lovely Ginny and Sandy Bridgforth. What a wonderful place to tour. I'd love an excuse to go back again.

Hi Ann--

Yes, I've read Martha Grimes. I like her Jury, but my favorite in those books is Melrose Plant--if he's the once-Lord obsessed with ceilings. I watch all the Inspector Morse shows on A&E. To be honest, I never thought about his being in books. DUH! But in that A&E "series" Morse is my favorite. Cracker is too contemporary and both he and Frost have too much angst and personal prioblems--though NEVER Cracker's weight for some reason-- for my taste. (I probably have them all mixed up.)

You've mentioned your surgery to the right group of people. Prayers will go up from numerous denominations. And from all over the map. And I'm not making light of this; it is the truth. The SrNetters are the most caring group of people I've ever heard of.

--Marie

Hey, to all of you, Thank you, thank you for all you kind words and promises of prayers for me and my heart surgery on June 25. This will be open heart to replace or repair my mitral valve. We are still awaiting the decision on that but we trust the doctor to make the proper choice. My husband was operated on in July a year ago and they removed part of his heart (an aneurysm of dead muscle from a previous heart attack) so that the 25% of his heart muscle that's left can be more efficient. Isn't that incredible? Now, its my turn! I am feeling pretty good and have decided that I will become the house teenager after this. Tee hee! Does that mean I will be able to read faster? Nooooootttttt!

Marie, I also enjoy the "spy vs spy" books by Len Deighton starting with Berlin Game. There are six of them and they are a series with the same characters throughout. I was able to watch the first three of the series on PBS, "Berlin Game, Mexico Set and London Match". The other three books are Spy Hook,Spy Line, and Spy Sinker. Once again, so many books, so little time!! Thanks again to all of you. You are already special to my heart ( and I mean that in more ways than one!)

Ann,

I love Len Deighton. I have read al of his books.

Joan

Joan,

I also love Ken Follet,another spy writer, and was most pleasantly surprised when I read his "Pillars of the Earth" which was just so wonderful that I didn't want to put it down.

Ann,

Me too. I like everything he has written. Pillars of the Earth was surprise but really good.

Joan

Ann & Joan

.....There is a third triology in Deighton Spy Series. The Titles are "Faith" "Hope" and "Charity". and in my estimation the books just improve as the series lengthens.

......Cam

Cam,

Yes ,I am in complete agrrement with you. i thought I just couldn't wait for the next one when Deighton was writing Faith, Hope and Charity

Deighton is one of my very favortes.

Joan

The first chapter was intense but yet not specific in action enough to let the reader know if this was a child's imaginary experience or actually happening. And the outcome could be horrible if this were an actual event. I couldn't stop reading.

The book is one of her best. I note the adult to child relationships which create almost cause & affect abuse situations and intensely distort or destroy the child or child/adult. She skirts a fine edge, finessing her preaching on family values within the conflicts of careers and multiple roles; and superb irony existed in the way Luxford faced his own dilemna as editor of a scandal sheet. His and Leo's final relationship saved the day.

Simon, Deborah, Barbara and St. James after 6 or 7 books become characters we can relate to or even attempt to predict typical actions. Though the plot often appears to be throwing them into new channels they usually fall back into form. Alas I had hopes Barbara might indeed find romance. More's the pity!

Lorraine, Thanks for the the wonderful discussion of the book. You ans Papa John are the only two people who have contributed anything to the what we are supposed to be discussing.

Has anyone else finished this book yet? I haven't finished it. I have had so many things going that I haven't been able to read much lately. this has go to stop. I must readbecuase that is a par to of me. I have been working on doing graphics on this machine too much. It is hard work for me and I end up so tired that I can't stay awake to read. I'll have the book finished soon.

I know that some of you read all of the books in all of the book clubs. I don't know how you do it. I used to read several books a month but that was before I retired and came to live on the computer. Joan

Joan, I have the same problem as you express in not finding the time to be able to keep up with all the books and spending so much time on the computer, whereas I used to spend it reading.

My wife and I listened to In the Presence of the Enemy on an audio book when making our last trip to Kansas City. It was about 16 hours long, as I recall. I also checked the book out of the library and have it now, but don't think I am going to be able to get it read. Guess I will have to rely on my memory from the audio book.

I do remember that the book retained my interest. I initially thought that Luxford was a sleazy character and that the mother left a lot to be desired in being more interested in her career than it appeared she was in her child.

Larry

I'm afraid I am a poor discussion host. Usually I just read for the entertainment of it. And that is what I did with "Presence of the Enemy." I thought it was such a good book I wanted to let everyone else know it. I had no idea how to lead a discussion on a mystery of this intensity. I feel very inadequate in even trying. One thing I have learned about myself after all the years on this earth is that I am not an analyzer, I am an organizer. As you noticed I did a bang up job organizing the questions for discussion but I am not good a disecting the story and coming up with great and thoughtful observations like Lorraine.

I see that I am way out of my league in trying to pique everyones interest in discussing this gem. This is a great book. Can someone pick it up and run with it?

trvlnmn

Hi Patrick, as well as all of you readers out there. I haven't finished reading the book, almost there.

The first chapter didn't hook me. It took some time for me to really become interested in it. I'm at the point where "Leo" was kidnapped, and am not to surprised at this event. I like the book, not as much as some of the others, but it is rather involved. In some cases I found there was too much description and the story seemed to get lost, but at the point I'm at now, it is picking up momentum.

Luxford is a rather seamy character, as one would expect from someone in his line of business, as well as Eve, who won't, under any circumstances, win the mother of the year award, but I don't think either of them are involved. I do have my own thoughts as to the conclusion of this story, but I'm going to wait until I finish the book, hopefully today, and I'll get back to you. Leah Hart

Hi Joan, Larry, Patrick & Learhardt. Because of my late hour last night (early a.m.) just now netting replies. Patrick I think you are a wonderful host and I see your responses many places on the internet. Both you and Joan offer so much assistance and welcome to others. I just thought that the l5th discussion time on this book had up and passed me by.

Leah, some of George's literature does leave me wandering. I found some passages I would need to read a couple of times. I also get perplexed at some of the British coloquilisms and wonder what the exact intention is. Yet I think her books have more depth although they lack the action of Mary Higgins Clark whose books I also enjoy.

Somehow I cannot access my E mail through this provider but I can get posts through the senior net. Although this machine kept me awake at nights earlier this year, now there is summer space to lessen the nuisance factors like not being abIe to access right when you would like to. It's worth it when I finally get through the waves to reach you all.

I read the book a couple of months ago and when it was chosen, thought to myself. "O.K., I don't really remember much about it, but surely when the discussion begins it will come back." WRONG! Absolutely nothing sounds familiar, except the character names which recur in all her books.

But I find I'm like Patrick. I read for the enjoyment of losing myself in the story and find I have no ability to analyze the writing. Either a book keeps me interested or it doesn't and I can't describe why either way.

One of the questions above is "what we thought about Robin's Mother?"

I would say she was basically responsible for the whole chain of events. She came across as a scheming, conniving, hard, cold, selfish and bitter woman. (Sorry I don't have an opinion on this!) She apparently had no remorse that it was the actions she had taken that had fostered the intense hatred that drove her son to commit the murder and kidnapping. Then when it all came out, she again refused to either recognize or accept any of the blame. She threw it all back on him and left the police station with a concern that it would affect her pending wedding. What a mess.

Larry

LARRY

I really appreciated your observation about Robin's mother. You hit the nail on the head! Whereas Robin was completely in the wrong in his reaction to what he thought were the facts his mother would not even give him the satisfaction of saying that she was responsible for his thinking Luxford was his father. George shows her excellent talents in developin this character.

--- Papa John

I had read this book earlier too. I am having the same problem with it that you have, Jeanne. I am not recalling a lot of it. I liked it when I as reading it, although, I remember thinking some of the descriptions, etc. could be said with fewer words. I will keep lurking in here, and, I am hoping more will be coming back to me.

When I started scrolling through the comments on the book I had the same problem that May Naab had. Then it all came back to me with a bang! Elizabeth George's books, in my opinion, are so rich in language and the standard characters,Simon,Helen etc.,'are always involved in so many personal problem sub plots, that it is difficult to remember the point to point portions of the story after the book is finished.I feel the true villian was Robin's mother.She caused so much suffering for other people because of her own weakness.George's books seem to me to be a lot like Ruth Rendall,Barbara Vine's books.They are a fascinating read but specifics of the stories aren't easy to remember!

I finally got the time to finish it. a good read, I had no idea who the bad guy was, but in looking back at it the clues were there. Other than being a little long I would judge it to be a fine mystery.

.....Cam

Hi All, I finally finished reading the book, and also found that some of the characters get lost in the involved description and background. I also found it rather difficult to understand the slang, which I guess is British. As I had said in my last post, I had an idea that Robin's character was sort of strange, but it would never have occurred to me why he was the villian. As I was reading I thought he was so anxious to make good as a an officer, that he might fix situations that he could solve, but it was just a passing thought. I also thought that his mother was totally nuts, thought of no one but herself, to the expense of her son's sanity. The book was all right. I'm glad I read it. Am already on another, a Jonathan Kellerman book I took from the library called "The Clinic." Will let you all know how that reads. Leah

I really like In the Presence of the Enemy and can't wait to read more of George's books. I have other comments for later but just have a question now: When it said that Eve Bowen held "surgery" certain nights during the week--did this mean she saw her constituency one-to-one. At first I thought she was a doctor plus MP. --Marie

Marie,

It meant that she saw her constituency one to one. It is a the term that they use because it resembles a doctor's surgery that he holds to see his patients.

Did you get my email of the lines for Brain Drain.

Joan

Marie, I puzzled over that word also. Thanks Joan. How can you keep up with so much? I am impressed. Most of the time I do not critique books although as an English major it was a major task. So many years ago that these days just getting the spelling & the grammer correct is a challenge. Enjoyment and excitement is what I look for in reading, and to satisfy curiosity as well. It always is amazing to see how much one's own idea of a book is expanded by the thoughts of others and how much deeper writing becomes.

Robin's mother? She seemed to be lacking a fuse or two. Sad because she tried to manufacture respect at the expense of honesty with her son. A weak and tragic character. Got to get to my chores now. bye

Lorraine--

You made my day when you said you had to do some chores! I keep asking everyone how they can be involved in SrNet and get all their chores done. Especially when you're reading in book clubs here. No one ever even mentions "chores". You and I must be the only two people here without a household staff!

Joan--

I'm so happy to hear you've sent me some lines for BrainDrain! My EMail has been messed up for a couple of days, but mail is coming in today okay. Your email may have gone to John's computer.(We us the same MSN account but on two computers, so we get each others mail all the time.) I'll have him check as soon as he gets home. Can't wait to see what you like. Thanks for taking the time!

Marie - Chores? Household staff? At this point, I'm not even sure you could call this place a house. "Hovel" might better describe it!

Hi everyone, I haven't read any of the books reviewed but will add 1 or 2 to my list. I like Mary Higgins Clark, but have to start hers when i have nothing else to do. Once started they are hard to put down. I also like Patricia Cornwall, John Grisham, and Robert Ludlum. I really didn't care for Grisham's Runaway Jury, I'm about to start his new one, The Partner, which I hope will be better. Unfortunetly my laundry is calling, so I must answer its call. Hope to chat with you all again soon.

Lynda - Welcome to the SeniorNet RoundTables! If you click on my name you'll see my email address - click on that and send me a note and I'll reply with some information to help you find more enjoyment here.

Lynda,

You are in for a treat with the new Grisham. I agree totally with you on his Runaway Jury. Think he redeemed himself with The Partner.

Larry

Lynda--

Welcome, indeed! I like Mary Higgins Clark too. About a week or two ago several of our Clubbers noted that Clark's books were a little too strong for them. While I love the cozy mystery genre, I'll have to admit that I can't put down Clark's books even though my hair is standing on end and I find myself rechecking our door locks. On the other hand, I just can't stand Dean Koontz (sp), who really tries to terrify the reader. I guess Clark's books are to me like the Hitchcock movies-- really bizarre but the way it's presented you believe it COULD happen.

Jeanne----I didn't say I was DOING my chores; I just said that I HAVE chores to do. Am to the point that I've strewn my vacuum cleaner, Endust, Windex, and old rags all around the entrance hall and living room so it looks like I'm in the midst of cleaning should one of my neat & organized friends drop in. I guess I'll have to put an "Out of Order" sign on the hall bathroom.

--Marie

Dear Joan, I am new on the internet and just found ya'll. I love to read mysteries too. I read all the authors mentioned and anything else I can get my hands on. I really like Johnathan Kellerman, didn't know he had a new one out. We are leaving on vacation tomorrow until after the 4th of July. So, I will try to get that book to take with me and will join ya'll when I get back. I've already read "The Cat who said Cheese" so I don't feel like I'll be behind. I'm working on a book myself. Not a mystery. Don't think I could write one. Mine is about grandmothers and their grandchildren. The title is: My panti-hose are bagging around my ankles and other Grandmother stories. I'm spending my "vacation" pulling it together. So will hopefully have more time when I get back. Enjoyed reading ya'lls' comments. This looks like a fun group. Maureen

Maureen,

Welcome!! . I am so happy to have you here!!

I hope that you enjoy your vactaion. Do get back with us as soon as you can.

We will be looking forward to hearing more about your book that you are writing.

If you will click on my name and send me an email so that I will have your email address,I will send you some instructions on registering and getting around the roundtables.

Do come back as soon as you can.

Joan Joan

Maureen, Great to see you joining us here in the Mystery Book Club. It sounds like you really love to read. Hope you will check out the other book clubs that we have also as we have some great discussions in each and always are happy to have new people join with us.

Hope you have a nice vacation and I will be looking forward to seeing your postings after the 4th.

Larry

Maureen - Let me add my welcome, too. We'll all be watching for your return from vacation.

Oops! I almost forgot. I think we should rate "In The Presince of the Enemy." How about everyone assigning a number of stars to their like or dislike of the book. One star for "I did not like.... " up to five stars for "I really liked...."

Perhaps a few comments to go along with your choice of stars would be in order?

This was my first Elizabeth George book and I thoroughly enjoyed reading it. It was full of uncertainty, unique twists and turns and I think she did a good job of keeping the villan "hidden" until the very last minute. I think the resolution through out was good, no loose ends laying around and not quick transitions that were out of place.

I went back and read a couple of her earlier books and I think she has improved with time and practice. This one was the best of the lot.

****

trvlnmn

Okay, can't make stars, but I'll give the book 3 1/2 --I liked it lots, will definitely read her other books, thought there should have been more clues and less red herrings along the way, thought it was too long to read for this club because of reading for the other clubs, too.

--Marie

I gave it 4 stars. It kept me interested until the end although I had to read a few passages a couple of times.

Marie, I do chores to keep up the exercise program. A little puffin helps my aerobic rate and it seems I am not good on routine treadmills or bikes. Can't say I love housework or the cleaning products. It all reminds me of THE STEPFORD WIVES but necessity prevails at our house.

Time to start a new book. Lorraine

Three for me--a bit too long and too many descriptive passages for my tastes.

%Hear Ye!

Hear Ye!%

You are invited
to share the magic of
Fthe BardE

in the Great Books forum!

Of all
Shakespeare's
tragedies,
Othello
is the most
painfully
exciting!

To find out how exciting Shakespeare can be, click Othello!

OH, Joan!! Love the new graphic! You are so clever!

And, Will Shakespeare!! You are clever, too, to be so old!!

Have the "Cheese" book, am looking forward to starting it; she lives 30 miles from me, but, have never met her. Hear she's quite a character...I would be, too, if only I could write!!

Ginny

I don't often read mysteries, and of course George reads them all the time. He is particularly fond of the British women authors. Which has little to do with what I am about to ask.

As he was reading his last thriller....he kept mentioning it to me, and now I am hooked. I was wondering if any of you have read, "The Ax" by Donald E. Westlake. It's a fast read, and I will probably finish it tomorrow. Started it last night so that is really a miracle.

Fran

Fran: No, I haven't! Tell us if you'd recommend it for us to read. Will add it to my shopping list tomorrow...not too gory, is it??

Ginny

In my humble opinion....Gory, yes. Would I recommend it.....No! George said it is just a story....but to me it was unsatisfactory.

It is about an older man who was laid off from his job two years ago. He goes about killing other qualified men who he thinks might get a certain job that he is qualified for.

Sorry I mentioned it.

Fran: spent half of yesterday looking for it...now I'm glad they don't have it, I think. If you couldn't put it down, I still bet it's good!

Did find on my own shelf what looks to be a great one, though: by Michael Didbin.

It's called The Dying of the Light , and you know he's all the rage in England. The book I have is hardback, but from 1993, barely, in hardback, 140 or so pages. A country house hotel type thing: "At Eventide Lodge things are not what they seem."

Says it's a brilliant and unconventional crime story...will tell more after I've read it...

Ginny

Ginny,

Do tell more. I am interested. I am always on the lookout for a new mystery writer who is good.

Fran,

I'll bet that is a good book that you read. If you couldn't put it down, it must have had something.

Joan

Joan, I am back online and want to say how glad I was to meet you in Wilmington. We had such a good time. We need to do it again.

I have The Cat Who Said Cheese and hope to start it today after I finish my gardening. I looks good.

Sandy

Dear Sandy,

I am so glad to see you back online. I really enjoyed meeting you. We did have fun didn't we? I hope that we will be able to do it again.

I am glad that you are joining us here. I am looking forward to it.

Joan

Well, I have started THE CAT WHO SAID CHEESE but so far I haven't found it too exciting. Looks like it shouldn't take too long to read like our last book. Yesterday afternoon I was out on the hammock on the back lawn reading and I just went to sleep. I was in the shade and there was a nice breeze blowing. The best way to read a good book.

---- Papa John

Joan:

.....In the Presence of the Enemy, I would give a maximum of Three Stars. Though the plot was in itself good, but I found the first half of the book to be very dragged out. Too many red herrings. And I must say I found Eve Bowen to be the most despicable selfcentered female character, Ive had the misfortune to read about in years.

....Looking forward to the discussion on the "Cat who"

.......Cam

Well, my first "Cat" book, and maybe my last. Am looking forward to hearing all the opinions, both pro and con.

I finally finished it, and am....well, nonplussed, and hope to hear from both sides. A lot to chew over, I think, in this book.

Ginny

OK, here is my two cents worth. With all due respect to Lilian Jackson Braun, whom I am sure is a very nice person and who has obviously many fans -- I frankly didn't care for THE CAT WHO SAID CHEESE. I read it through but it was one I would have laid down for something else except for the fact that it was our book for this month. I think maybe I didn't care for it because it was too much about cats and cheese and characters I couldn't really get interested in. Qwilleran seemed to be a nice guy, rich, single, etc. I never really learned all the characters in that town though I think they were all mentioned. The plot -- when it entered in was not a bad plot. I didn't have a lot of questions but those I had were pretty well answered. I wasn't surprised about the death by bees and I think I had figured out Aubrey Scotten, whose character was developed pretty well, was responsible for that. Anyway as a book I'm sorry I just didn't really like it very much. --- Papa John

Papa John,

I started to write some comments last evening and then erased them as I was going to write almost the same thing. I felt Qwilleran was just too good to be true. He appeared to own or have control of anything that needed attention. Perhaps if this were not the first of this series that I had read the characters would have been more interesting. I really could not relate to the cats actions, a little too much for my taste.

Like you I would have put this book aside if it weren't for the book club. It certainly was an easy read, but I found my attention fleeting. Sure hope others enjoyed the book more. Obviously, with the many titles in this series there is a big demand for the Cat stories.

I will be interested in what others have to say about this book. Perhaps there were depths here that I just didn't focus on and missed something important (not that mystery books need to relate to something important to be enjoyable.)

Larry

I read Lillian Jackson Braun`s books occasionally because I am a cat lover. I have two cats and can relate to the "cat humor". They are very light reading--the characters she uses are developed as she writes more books. Actually, I can`t imagine anyone being very interested in her type of writing, if they are not dedicated cat lovers.

I did read The Cat Who Said Cheese a while back. I can`t get a copy to refresh my memory--sad to say, I don`t remember much about the book. I read them for total relaxation. I just don`t overdose on them.

Well, who was the idiot who chose this "Cat..." book!

Gee, everyone, I'm really sorry. BUT--it was the easiest read you've ever had AND I dont know about you, but I finally got caught up with my reading in a couple of other clubs because we didn't have to wade through over 600 pages here in Mystery.

As soon as I started reading it I realized it was a stupid choice on my part. You really have to have read the Cat books from book one and in sequence. New charcters come in and remain into later books. When I looked at it from your persepective, I saw there were way too many characters and too many "in" jokes, etc.

Well it was my first time to pick a book for any group, and I wanted to be sure not to pick one which might offend anyone with profanity, sex or violence. Come on, now, you have to agree that it met THAT criteria.

I have to agree with everything that's been said about the book. I don't think there's any point in wasting more of our time by discussing it, so let's all use the "discussion" time to catch up in our other clubs. But thanks for being such good sports about reading it.

--Marie

Marie,

Will you please let Stephanie know that you nominated her to choose our next book? I dont think she has ever been in this discussion.

Thanks,

Joan

Marie,

I too am a cat lover, although didn't know it until we got one a couple of years ago. Mr. Tiggers now rules the house and communicates very well what he wants.

I understand how you feel about choosing the book as I had to pick out the first one for this book club. I had not read it and realized it might not be to everyones taste. I think this is something we all have to accept as book club members and never be offended if others, or we as the persons choosing the book, find that the book isn't what had been expected. I think of the Mary Gordon book, which is now being discussed, and feel that it has generated some very fine discussion, even though most people don't seem to have cared for the book itself.

I know that my comments above had nothing to do with the person nominating the book and everything to do with the book itself. I expect if I had started at the beginning of the series and followed it through to this one I would have enjoyed it as the characters became known. A number of years ago I read the John Jakes series and couldn't wait until the next one came out. Then later I read about 24 or 25 of the "Wagons West Series" by Dana Fuller Ross, which involved basically one family going to and settling in the west and then future generations moving out into the country in different period of history. I really liked the characters and found the books kept my interest book after book. I have never figured out whether Dana Fuller Ross is a man or a woman (not that it matters but have always wondered.

Larry

Larry--

I can't believe it; your post expresses EXACTLY my feelings. And I'm sure anyone who has gone through picking a "first" book for discussion. But you and all the other BC participants are so easy to be with, that, surprisingly, having picked a bomb hasn't bothered me. You all are just so easy to "live with", so to speak. I really appreciate hearing you express my feeling to a "tee". Thanks.
--Marie

I did not care for the book. Almost from page one I had problems with the names. Pickax, Moose County, some of the personal names, and the Moose County Something. Can you hear some man say "I'm going to sit down and read the Something and see what's happening in town". But my biggest problem was with the Klingenschoen Foundation. I seemed that it controlled the town. It determined which shop got support, what could be built on the land around the town, etc.

I also had trouble with the characters Qwilleran and Polly. Their relationship is so strange. It would be alright if the story was set in the 1800s, but it isn't. Marie how old are they? I think it said that in the book, but I can't find it.

I am glad I was exposed to the book because I see them all the time. I feel that one to the purposes of the Book Clubs is to expose us to new books and authors.

Sandy

Having read all of the "Cat" books, just about in sequence, I have thoroughly enjoyed them all. However, I can well understand how starting out with this particular one could be a deterrent. The characters have all gradually evolved and grown in importance as the series has progressed.

But, my goodness, wouldn't this be a dull old world if everybody liked exactly the same things!!!

Vive la difference!

Sandy--Thanks for taking the time to both read the book and post remarks. It really is like Jeanne says, you have to get to know the characters as they accumulate year after year starting with book one. I should have thought of that when I named the book.

The reasons I like the "Cat Who..." books seem to be the very reasons you don't: I like the whimsical names of the setting; the whole, imaginative town and it's businesses, newspaper, and somewhat Victorian ways.

I find the books gracefully written, the characterizations gently eccentric. Qwill and Polly are past middle-aged, I'd guess. To be honest, I don't see anything unrealistic or even unusual about their relationship. I really don't know what you mean on that point.

Having read the Cat books since their beginning, I find myself looking forward to each new one. It's like visiting old, dependable friends again. I know these people; I like them; I look forward to spending some time with them and catching up on what's happening in their lives. I can trust them to not shock, embarrass or disgust me by their language or behavior.

But, as I've said several times now, I admit that the book was just a terrible choice for a reading group. My lack of thought in having chosen this book has wasted your time reading it and your money buying it. I don't want to waste anymore of your resources by prolonging useless discussion of the book.
--Marie

Like Others I have read all The"CAT WHO" and the "Rabbi Who" series and I find them to be very similar, a nice light frothy story, which has a crime thrown into it, mainly it seems, so that the author, publisher or bookstore owner, will have a genre to display it under.

Having said that I will reiterate that I read and enjoy every one of them.

.....Cam

Even if it's a book you didn't like, you can still enjoy the discussion of it, as that's what I think a book club is for, anyway.

It's a tough thing to go out on a limb and choose a book for a book club, as many of us now know, (how about me and Marcia Clark??) and it's a good idea to rotate the job, so we can all be respectful of the chooser. Or I hope so, anyway. Hope nobody will take out irritation about Marcia Clark and the OJ Simpson mess on me!

And NO ONE is more respectful of Marie than I am, have you SEEN the job she did on the color on the table on the Reading Choices for Book Clubs page?? If you haven't, do go look, it's spectacular today!

I'm grateful you did recommend it, Marie, I was feeling like an illiterate, living here 30 minutes from her, and hearing about her all the time. I mean, she's written 20 books!

Having said all that, I'd love to put my two cents in, too, tho.

Now, I do agree with Sandy on the names stuff: the Moose County Something for example, and all the alliteration...Tipsy's Tavern, or whatever.

I felt that the author there was lazy...but I should have known better, I can see from Marie's post that it was deliberate, now. I thought tho, that if the author were that lazy, then it made me lazy in the reading...again, here's a perfect example of what you can learn in a book club...you can learn from the other's perespective...I'm not a cat fancier, but have heard some similar things from neighbors who do have Siamese, about their qualities.

I did think one part really stood out, and that was Quilleran's concern for Aubrey...that was well done, I thought.

It's funny that Cam should bring up the Rabbi book, as I found myself thinking of that one (which I had recommended) which was also, well, the last in a long series which had been popularly received, which had flashes of good things and old memories, but which might not have stood up to a first time reader. I enjoyed it, but can understand how others might not.

But, just to keep the point-counterpoint alive, I think it's very strange with all that cheese about for the cheese tasting party, that when asked by the caterers, Quilleram decided not to put the cats up. Now, that, right there, stopped me in my tracks.

I also think it's most improbable to the point of disbelief, that covering a man with a wool blanket would lead to his being stung to death....this was at night, was it not?

On that point, at least, I have a source: my own beekeeper. Will ask him and get back here.

It's not so much the: "I liked it,"or the: "well, I didn't," but the: "why I liked it," and the: "let's discuss it so I can learn," that makes a book discussion interesting to me, anyway.

Ginny

Hi Everyone,

I agree with Ginny that a book can be discussed even if it is a cozy. The first tiem I read a cat who mystery , I felt the same as many of you do. I thought about it and read another. I enjoyed it more than the first one that I read. Then I began to look for the books. These books are humorous. They are even satirical. This last one did not seem to have enough of the cats to satisfy me.

Marie, You certainly did nothing wrong by choosing this book.

We need a book for next month. Marie do you want to choose someone else to choose the next book?

Joan

Joan
Thanks for the vote of confidence. What you said is exactly what happened to me. I really didn't like the first Cat Who.. that I read, but found that it stuck with me, so to speak. It was so different, almost too "nice" to be a mystery. So I tried a second one...then I simply bought them all, lined them up in order written and read straight through.

About August's book, I was unable to reach Stephanie by email, so have asked Larry Hanna if he would pick out a book. I'm sure he'll respond this weekend. I hope that's okay. This has been a real learning experience for me--from picking the book to simply picking someone to pick a book. Hey, this stuff isn't nearly as easy as you hosts make it look! So congratulations on the jobs you all do and many thanks for doing it for us netters who love books.

Ginny
Well, I disagree with you that all books are worth discussing. Some books are clearly written simply for pleasure reading. And there's really little to be said about them other than what you liked and what you didn't like. I think this is definitely such a book.

It's not complex, it brings out no deep-seated feelings in us about ourselves or the author--unless of course there's that little tinge of jealousy that the author is a published author and the reader would like to be but is not. Then, of course, it's fun to criticize the author, confident that you could have written a much better book than she has which you prove by pointing out her flaws.

But the book has no hidden agenda, no controversial characterizations or plot twists, no political or personal message. It's just a visit to a quiet retreat 500 miles north of everywhere.

Do you really think there is value in our discussing why an imaginary, whimsical character chose not to put his cats away during a cheese tasting party? It isn't as though we're reading about far-reaching impacts of personal actions in classical literature by long-dead authors.

If we really think it's worth our time and trouble to arrive at some conclusion as to why Qwill let the cats run loose, we could simply ask Lilian Braun directly.

As to your saying that you respect me because of the color charts/tables that I created, I don't know when I've been so completely damned by faint praise--or, in this case, inappropriate logic.

What on earth does being able to construct HTML tables have to do with being literate or, specifically, being able to choose a worthwhile book for a discussion group. In a book club, from a book club host, the only real compliment is one addressing literary astuteness, certainly not some technical talent.

--Marie

Marie, I had tried to reach Stephanie by email also. the email came back to me. It is fine that Lsarry is going to choose a book.

This whole thing is a learning experience for all of us. One thing that we can discuss about this book is why the author writes these books. Why do you think the author writes these books?

Joan

Marie has asked me to choose the next mystery book and I have made my choice. This is a book I read several years ago and which started me reading most of the books this author has written.

The book is called Palindrome by Stuart Woods. I think it is one of Mr. Woods best books. The book is available from both Amazon and Barnes and Noble Online for $4.79 and they indicate 2-3 days to ship. It should also be readily available from local book stores and/or your local library.

Here are the Reviews and Commentary for Palindrome from the Amazon site.

Synopsis: Liz Barwick has been battered for years by her famous pro football player husband. Finally, Liz flees to an island paradise off Georgia's coast and meets identical twins Hamish and Keir Drummond. Just as Liz's traumatic memories begin to fade, a series of gruesome murders occur and Liz discovers that there is no safety anywhere. HC: HarperCollins.

Customer Comments: jay1@eagnet.com, 12/22/96, rating=10: The best that the author has written to date, no exceptions! The is the type of book that you cannot recommend enough to your friends! All if my friends have copies of the book and I've read it three times myself. This is the bery best of Stuart Woods. One of, if not the best i've ever read. Excellant plot and the hunt is fantastic. The culmination of events is very smooth and not a bumpy transition as with other books. I only wish there is a sequel or a movie made for the big screen!!

A reader, 08/28/96, rating=9: Palindrome --An entertaining murder mystery with a twist. Stuart Woods has evolved to an excellent murder story teller. His first book Chiefs and the two that followed the same family, Run Before the Wind and Grass Roots are also excellent.

Hope you all enjoy it. I am looking forward to reading it again.

Larry

Larry,

Thanks for chosing our next book.

You also get to choose the next person to choose a book.

Joan

Larry: Great! I love Stuart Woods, and have not read that one, so will take it with me on the trip!

Ginny

Larry--

Thanks a million for saving the day! I've already ordered "Palindrome" from Amazon--and love that price. Have never read Stuart Woods and can't wait to read this one.

Joan--

Sorry to be so late responding to your post asking why I think the author writes these books, but couldn't access SrNet until this afternoon.

I like to think that Lilian Braun, the author of the "Cat who..books," is one of those writers who doesn't write for a reason--I mean, the type of woman who simply has always written, always been a storyteller and loved to put it onto paper. I like to think that close friends or family encouraged her to submit it to a publisher and she was surprised when she was published. The stories just sound like ones made up by someone very whimsical and not doing it for any commercial reasons. Maybe after the first few became successes she had to write under some pressure "to publish". In fact, she did stop writing for a while and was sorely missed--maybe came back under demand. I don't know the facts--but I hope that Lilian Braun is that kind of writer.

(I liked you question a lot; it make me see that I'm wrong about there being nothing to discuss about some books; there is always something to discuss, isn't there.)

--Marie

Don't you all get the feeling, too, that Lillian Braun is (or has been) owned by a couple of Siamese cats? Maybe their antics are such that she just felt she had to share them and a mystery was the vehicle.

Jeanne--

I forgot that part. She does for sure belong to two Siamese cats--and she either has a second home there or came from the northern part of Michigan--which I guess it's the" 500 miles north of anywhere" she uses for her books setting. I got this from a tiny picture and two sentence blurb in the back of the book. Also, she' no spring chicken and I REALLY like that in an author.
--Marie

I have read all of L.J.B.'s books and love them as light, fluffy reading as I wait to go to sleep, nothing that requires heavy analysis. So Quill didn't put the cats away during the party, I don't quibble with fluffy mysteries! I would never read, e.g., John LeCarre before sleeping or even P.D. James. They would make me more awake! Those I read during the day!

I have always wished that I could see Quill's home, the remodeled barn. It sounds so neat! I like the soft touches that L.J.B. adds to Quill and other characters too, often the sign that the author is a woman---with the exception of that hard nosed, hard drinking Chicago, Polish detective whose name I can't spell!

Betty

Betty - You couldn't possibly mean V.I. Warshawski, could you?

Reading all these posts of Lillian Jackson Braun`s books--I checked her latest book out today--(The Cat Who Said Cheese is still not available. I just felt in the mood for one of her books--it is rainy and kind of cool here today. It will be a good read--

Even though I am very familiar with the characters she uses, settings, etc., it was good to read the discussion. I always felt you had to be a real cat lover to enjoy them--but maybe not?

In reference to the Lillian Braun books, there is a columnist in Orlando who writes for the Orlando Sentinel that is the image of Qwill! He even writes the same type of column, except it's mostly about his WWII experiences and the like. His name is Ed Hayes. I plan to write him and ask if he has ever read "The Cat Who.." series. Ms. Braun is unique in that she writes about the little town and its characters, with crime sort of tossed in for a theme. I don't own them all, but I do have several, including the one in which he acquires the cats.

I wasn't able to get Palindrome at the library right away but should be able to get it this week. I'm looking forward to reading it.

--- Papa John

Papa John,

I started it last night and It starts out very well. I think I am going to enjoy it. It is my first Stuart Woods. I read nothing but English writers for so long.

Joan

I started rereading Palindrome last evening and got about 1/3 of the way finished. It is a fast read, but has an interesting plot.

Larry

The book is ready for me to pick up today. So I should get started on it tonight. I enjoy reading new authors which have been recommended.

--- Papa John

Thought I would give my two cents worth...on "the cats who..." My wife and I have read (I belive) all of the Lillian Jackson Braun`s books we could find and enjoyed everyone. I love detective novel and have discovered the the girl techs written by Female authors...such as Kit Kat (Sacramento) also the alphabet girl detective from near Santa Barbara and yes V.I. from Chicago and have enjoyed very much. I've always been a Sci Fi fan but now almost every thing I read today set in the todays' 90 is the scifi of yesterday...I guess that why I like computers so much. Yes..."The Cat Who...series" is the cat's meow...besides loving a mystery....I love a pun "good or bad"

Don Schreier

I first picked up Palindrome when it first came out because I love number fun including palindromes. The book was so very good. I am enjoying the second read. Looking forward to the discussion. Esther

Hi Everyone,

I finished Palindrome several days ago. I really enjoyed the book but I will leave my comments until the discussion begins.

Joan

Joan and everyone -- I finished Palindrome too. I'll wait until the 15th to comment other than to say it was an interesting book and easy to read with a good plot.

--- Papa John

Joan and Papa John,

Glad to hear that you enjoyed the book. I have found most of Stuart Woods books to read well and to keep my interest. Only two more days until we begin the discussion.

Larry

Hi Everyone,

The discussion points that Larry has prepared are in the heading at the top of the page.

You may want to go ahead and look at them today before we begin discussion tomorrow.

Larry, off the top of my head I'll give my comments.

1.-- The story line maintained my interest very well and I did not think it too complicated.

2.-- About the characters:

Angus Drummond -- an interesting character developement. I found him a colorful old man, attatched to the past yet tolerant and good hearted. He fit in well in the whole of the story.

Keir Drummond and Hamish Drummond -- One man with two personalities. I found Keir to be a more pleasant person. The personalities here were complex and of course related to the fact that one had killed (though not intentionally) the other.

Baker Ramsey's character was well developed and of course very essential to the dramatic effect of the story. He had become a kind of monster as a result of his use of steroids.

Buck and James Moses gave color (no pun intended) to the story. The old man had a secret which he had kept through the years. The acceptance of James as his son gave Angus Drummond some extra quality points in my estimation. Why did he wait, however, for such a long time?

Lee Williams was certainly a character who added some suspense in that we saw him grow in his suspicions and for awhile we thought he had been killed. He came to the rescue bus Liz Barwick had already been rescued when he arrived.

3.-- The identification of the body in "Light-Horse Harry Lee's" grave WAS a surprise to me. Maybe I began to expect right before he was identified.

4.-- I thought the remaining twin was Hamish. Why? I'm not sure. Maybe because he was the one more visible through the years.

5.-- I thought the acceptance of James Moses by the Drummond family WAS realistic. Hamish/Keir already suspected.

6.-- The author DID resolve the various story lines, I think. At least I didn't have a feeling that there were threads left dangling.

I enjoyed the book very much. The morality of the characters -- sex, etc. is something which used to bother me more than it does today. I have come to realize that people live in ways which are different from the standards that I personally try to adhere to. This said, I think this is one of the best since I joined the Mystry Book Club.

---- Papa John

Well, it is the 16th and no one else has shown up. Maybe folks can't find this place since they changed the Literature section.

--Papa John

Papa John,

I hope they can find this discussion. It is no longer buried in a series of folders as it was before. If I can remember to do so, I will put a reference to this in the Cafe with a clickable just in case. Know Joan Grimes is traveling for a few days or I am sure she would have already done so.

Back to the book, I ended up with a sense that the remaining twin was probably Keir due to his shooting on the beach. However, the whole point of the twins seemed to be that each had the characteristics of the other so you may be right about it being Hamish.

You spoke about the morality of the characters. I have noticed that the Stuart Woods books have had more of the amoral or immoral type characters in each succeeding book that he has written.

I just wonder if we are not experiencing the same things in books that we are experiencing in television and movies that each year the envelope is pushed further and further. I just read an article last week that the FCC has reduced the fines on the use of certain words on the radio and television. While there are still substantial fines, they were reduced by about $5,000 if I recall.

Larry

Iam sorry that I did not post yesterday or the day before. I have been so busy trying to get ready for this trip and I kep Sophie yesterday. I just haven't had time to post before.

I have read Palindrone twice. To me the most enjoyable part of the book was the way Stuart Woods was able to create the setting on Cumberland Island. My husband and I plus two dear friends fell so in love with the island by just reading this book that last fall we visited the island off of Georgia.

Morality or amorality aside,(I'm good at skipping over it if it is offensive) I think this is a very well written mystery. Characters and events are finely woven to build suspense and move the story along to the conclusion. I feel very satisfied when the mystery ends with a conclusion (solution) which is logical according to the information provided by the author. Stuart Woods gave us the information through hints, charcter traits or events so that, I feel, the conclusion was the only possible one he could have written.

There were two stories in Palindrone. One was Liz Barwick's and domestic violence. The other was the story of the Drummond family. I hope someone who is a twin has read this book and will comment about those twins.

The psychologisr had some interesting theories. If each twin is an extension of the other, it doesn't matter, it seems, which twin killed the other. He killed half of himself. Then he lived two lives to replace the other twin.

Which characters are more important? Each group of characters is important to a part of the plot. Without a particular character, whether Angus Drummond or Lee Williams, the part of the plot in which that character plays would be lost and the whole mystery would collapse.

I never intended a desertation.

Portraying Baker Ramsey as he developed into a murdering monster is the perception which so many people share toward the physically abusive. Liz nearly lost her life to one brutish beast and then again nearly lost it to Goliath the reptilian brutish beast. ("Allegator" does not portray the size and power of Goliath.) Is Goliath meant to be compared to Baker Ramsey?)

I do love a mystery, and this is my first visit to this web site, so I am probably unclear on the concept of when and how to post a message. I have not read Palindrome, so cannot contribute to this discussion. Where should I post a message about the wonderful Josephine Tey stories that I am currently re-reading and enjoying?

Maureen Harte

Maureen,

It is good to see you posting here and hope you will enter into any of the Books and Literature discussions that interest you. We have a number of different discussions in addition to the book clubs. Just click on the Books and Literature Guide in the above heading and you will see a table that has all of the Books and Literature discussions and book clubs listed. There is a discussion for Fiction, one of non-fiction, and several other discussions.

Sure hope you will be joining in some of our book club discussions in the future.

Larry

Thanks, Larry. I will check out the guidelines you gave me, and you can be sure I will be joining in future discussions!

Hello, Mystery Fans!!

Of course, I forgot to pack Palindrome, so will read it on the plane back.

MAUREEN!! A special greeting from London to you, glad to have you!!

This is a very nicer cyber cafe, but, agan, like everything else, boiling hot!! Everyone here is checking their stocks and investments, but YOU all are the kings, everyone is looking over my shoulder at the wonderful graphics, Larry!! Well done on the B&L page!

Ginny

At my request, since I made the last selection, Esther Barber has made the selection of our next mystery book for our September 15-October 14 discussion. She has selected:

A is for Alibi by Sue Grafton.

This is the first book in the very popular Kinsey Millhone mystery series.

Thanks Esther.

Larry

Hmmmm. Maybe it's time to start Sue Grafton over from the start. At least I know I can get that one from the library!

One of the biggest mysteries of all in this story is, how could our heroine have connected with the likes of Baker Ramsey in the first place? Granted, he's been changed by the steroid use but surely his basic personality couldn't have been skewed all that much. I can only surmise that her libido led her astray, as it did on occasion during her stay on the island. And speaking of that, I could have done with a little less of that aspect from several of the characters.

They keep telling me that sex sells. I'd like to see a poll on that. No one I know thinks graphic descriptions of bedroom activity is so great, but maybe that's my age and station in life speaking.

Esther...that was a good insight on the comparison of the two "animals" in the story. I never saw that until you mentioned it.

Jo

I haven't been to this site in several months and was puzzled when I saw the discussion was on "Palindrome." It sounded familiar but I couldn't place it. After reading some of the comments I remembered I had read it last fall. A year ago I met a friend I had grown up with at an Elderhostel in St. Simons, GA. She told me about having been to Cumberland Island, and after we each went back to our homes she mailed "Palindrome" to me. She inclosed a note to the effect that "it may not be the best literature, but it has the distinction of being the only novel set on Cumberland Island." While I was reading it, the news of JFK, Jr.'s wedding came out in the paper. I enjoyed the details about Cumberland Island, but the mystery evidently didn't make much of an impression on me if I could forget it so easily.

I'm struggling a bit with A is for Alibi . Is this what is known as a "police procedural," and if not, what is a "police procedural?" Have seen that title so many times, and am not sure what it means.

Ginny

PS: Larry, I sure am sorry I missed your discussion. What a wonderful job you did with those questions!

Ginny - A "police procedural" is one where the main character is a police officer with the facilities of police records and laboratories, etc., at his disposal, who investigates a crime. Other characters are also included, such as his superior officers (who usually don't agree with his assessment of the case) and other police officers working with him. Hill Street Blues, Miami Vice, NYPD BLUE are considered police procedurals.

Jeanne: Thanks! So, this one has a private investigator who, so far, is spending time in the police office and getting to look at their files....would that qualify?

Ginny

Ginny - No, if I remember the book correctly, it's a private investigator, not a police officer. She'll be working privately, but will have some access to police information from time to time. Guess I'm going to have to re-read this one. And that will probably start me back through all the series, right through "M" - maybe by that time the "N" one will be ready!

I've enjoyed all of the Kinsey Millhone stories, too. My daughter buys them as soon as they're available in paperback then passes them on to her daughter and then to me. I was glad to hear Sue Grafton say that she would try to take us clear through the alphabet even tho' she's a little weary of the format. I almost feel Kinsey is someone I know by now and look forward to her next case.

I especially enjoy them because of the setting. She hardly bothers to disguise the city of Santa Barbara, even using the same street names, and it's very familiar territory to me.

The nice part about my failing memory is that in re-reading this one, I still don't know whodunit.

Not sure whether to put this here or The World of Herbs or both. We (Herb Society) received two intersting books, part of a 6 book series-The China Bayles Mysteries. Author is Susan Albert. Of course I had to read finished one Thyme of Death and 2/3 done with the other Witches'Bane Very good mysteries. There are many references to herbs and herb cookbooks. Even have a newsletter. The newsletter is supposed to be coming on line soon. Since I am a mystery fan, I found this to be very interesting. Also the herbal references were fun.

Darn! I was just at the library this afternoon and forgot to pick up A is For Alibi!

Ruth, I love all the China Bayles mysteries. Not only good mysteries, but I get educated in spite of myself!

Ruth,

I like the China Bayles stories, too. I think most gardeners would. It's easy to visualize the scenes in these---her little shop, her quirky neighbors and friends. Light and fun.

Jo

Monday will be the day to begin the discussion of the Sue Grafton book. While on vacation I was able to check out the audio version of the book and listen to the first part of the book. I realized that I had previously read the book, but also have the problem of not remembering the outcome of the book. I should get the book on Monday from my library here and will finish reading it to refresh my memory.

Larry

I am on the third reading. Interesting mystery. Now I remember why I liked it the first time. All I need now is to think of some discussion questions. I'm trying Larry.

Esther

Thanks Larry for choosing a wonderful mystery. I enjoyed it the second time, too.

Esther

Esther,

I am glad that you enjoyed the Stuart Wood book for a second time. So did I. While I was on vacation I took the new Stuart Wood book with us and both my wife and I read it. Enjoyed it also. It is called "Dead in the Water" and concerns a trial on a small island where justice is somewhat different than it is in America.

Larry

Hmmmmm! Hard copy or paper back?

Esther

Esther,

This is a new book, just out this year, and is only in hardback at this time (as far as I know).

Larry

I have just joined this group, and have not yet read the selection, but I did see the comments about the China Bayles series. I also love these, and have read them all. They have a "spread" in the hill country of Texas where they actually grow herbs.

I am looking forward to reading this Sue Grafton book, after reading some of the comments. I have avoided her books, because I didn't want to do the whole alphabet, but sounds like she is worth it.

Welcome, Carole! We are very glad to have you here...In answer to the first question above, I couldn't figure out WHICH person supposedly had been her husband?? The one who was killed or the one she killed??

I didn't have a clue as to "who done it," did any of you?

Back with some more thoughts on those questions later....

Ginny

Carol, even though her books follow a sequence alphabetically, one does not have to have read one to be able to enjoy another.

As for guessing "who dun' it," I was determined this second reading, to note each clue as Kinsey (Sue Grafton) revealed it. I had a hunch "who done it" but I was suspicious of everyone.

Esther

Same here, Esther. I could only remember the sex of the perpetrator and that Kinsey ended up in a trash can at the beach! Hope I'm not giving too much away for those who are still reading.

As much as I like our heroine, sure wish she'd clean up her language. Guess I'd forgotten about that, too.

Jo

Thanks for the responses, Jo. Esther and Ginny. I realize that I don't have to read them all, but once I get hooked, I probably will. It is just that I am a little leary of an author who has written so many books about the same character. I am afraid that the stories will get stale, and most (not all) of them do.

Jo, I am only on chapter 5. Now I am going to have to cruise through to see what trash can you are talking about.

I must confess that I am really enjoying this book. I agree that Kinsey is trying a little bit too hard to be "hardboiled" but-- am I wrong in suspecting that there is a really nice person underneath??

Thanks again for the welcome. I think this book club is going to be fun.

All right, you all are going to hate me.

A book club needs discussion and dissenting opinions.

If Bill says he likes the book, and John says "yup," and Estelle says "yup" and Oleander says "yup," then the discussion is dead!

If everyone loved the book, then "yup," the questions above are still good.

So, keeping in mind you may love the book, I'll answer the last question of those excellent ones above.

Yes, this is my first Sue Grafton book. I have bought, over the course of the years, two others: K is for Killer, and the "F" one in paperback, which I can't find at the moment. So, yes, I'm going to read those two, and I'm going to start with the K book, and compare it to her first A book to see if she has changed anything.

Here is a problem I had with her A is for Ailbi :

The endless, endless descriptions of detail which had nothing to do with the story line: A case in point is the descriptive passages which start on page 89, (the motel, the Chinese food, the casino) and proceed undaunted through page 92 and Sharon's apartment.

I almost put the book down. Too many inconsequential facts. Too much detective work. Too much, in short.

I do like the character. If I had not been in this book club, I would not have finished the Book of Endless Descriptions, so I'm glad I did, but I think, in fiction, especialy in mysteries, supplemental material should only advance the plot.

What did I miss here? How did pages 89-92 advance the plot? What clue did they contribute?

Keep in mind I did NOT know who did it, maybe that's why? Nor did I care...

A mystery, said a mystery writer to me once, is supposed to be an adventure: the author is saying, I'm going along on an adventure; you come, too.

Am I the only one who was put off a little bit by all the descriptions in this Non-police procedural book? Or did you find the descriptions fascinating?

Ginny

I think we have to remember that Kinsey's background included being a former police officer and that would undoubtedly give a person a fairly hard outer crust and vocabulary.

Ginny, perhaps this book needed a better editor to remove the unneeded descriptions that didn't advance the plot. I have read several of this series and enjoyed them, although I must admit I don't dwell on the details of the writing, just the story line.

As you and others have said several times before and in other Book Club discussions, it is delightful to see a variance of opinions on the book. I just finished the F2F book last night and have some definite opinions about what I think are serious flaw in the book when we come to that discussion. Now need to get back and finish reading this mystery book.

Larry

Larry: Good! I'm going to be waiting to hear about the serious flaw! I've noticed some puzzling inconsistencies, but have also noticed (am now on page 217) some very clever plotting. Of course, you've finished the book, and Helen finished the book, and she says she's got strong opinions, too...so there may be something over the hill I don't forsee.

I can't read the thing for more than a half hour at the time. I guess I get too immersed in books.

While waiting for the B&L to load, I read (skimmed also) the first quarter of the K is for Killer , and find it a totally different book. Much honed in. No endless descriptions, and when they do come, you're interested...she's really fine tuned her writing, I think....much more interesting...so I'll defninitely finish that one.

I liked the fearlessness of the character. Somebody coming? She's fearless....just attacks where I'd be cowering in fear. I do like to see a strong female characer.

Stephen King said that anyone could write; all you have to do is sit down and write for 5 hours a day...now, Grafton has proved his point; her books get better and better, but I think, for example, some authors do not get better.

How about Charlotte Mac Leod (sp??). Has she written a better book than Rest Ye Merry , her first book?

How about Sue Grafton herself? Those of you who have read all her books, (sorry to suddenly ask questions here, but would really like to know)....is A is for Alibi her best book?

Ginny

I enjoyed the book but wasn't crazy about it. I think "A" is about as far as I will get in this series. It didn't hold my interest as well as I would have liked. I have read worse books. But then, I have read a lot better.

--- Papa John

Papa John!!

I am so glad to see you here again! We have missed you! Did you figure out "who done it" before the end? (I didn't)....am taking a poll...

Saw a train crash in England today, and, of course, started worrying about our Joan. Surely she wasn't going to Wales. When I was there three weeks ago, sometimes our trains would just barely get on a sidetrack and sometimes stop very abruptly so a freight would roar through. Also those trains lean a little, and there's very very little space between them. I remember wondering how long it would be before a crash, but this one yesterday was head on, (into the side of another) I believe. I think Joan said she was going to London...didn't mention Wales before going back to Paris.

Ginny

Ginny, I chose book A because it introduces Kinsey and Sue Grafton. Not being familiar with much of California, I think I enjoyed the details of the countryside and the life style of the people. I "enjoyed" the surprises of this book and the exciting conclusion. As far as the interest lost to too much of everything, be glad that I didn't choose the "L" book. It is not really a mystery and it is AWFUL! But, a loyal fan dies hard (sic) and I purchases the current "M" book, and liked it a lot.

I have thought about the "anyone can write a book" and wonder if perhaps that was Sue Grafton's original purpose... to see if she could write, get published and sell. She did of course. Maybe, if I were she, I would have done the same. I can't imagine writing 200+ pages of anything worthwhile.

We also are discussing in the context of our own preferences in book styles/ contents. I, for example, really dislike Stephen King's books as well as most, if not all, horror and/or pshchological stories. I find no fascination in the twisted mind. So, Sue Grafted does not disappoint me.

Isn't human uniqueness wonderful!!?

Esther

Larry,

What is the F2F book, please?

Esther

Esther,

The F2F book is a page-turner about a group of people involved with a chat group on the Internet. Based on your previous comments above, this book might not be your cup-of-tea as it involves some pretty gruesome details. However, it reads very quickly (unless you only read a chapter at a time like Ginny is doing) and it certainly holds your interest (or it did mine).

Larry

HI everyone. I am now halfway through "A is for Alibi", and I must say, this is really slow going. I am so tired of reading about the the decorations of each persons residence, the side chatter that has nothing to do with the story, and the the aimless wandering of the plot, that I am not sure that I can finish this. I have heard from friends who are Grafton fanatics that she gets much better as she goes down the alphabet. Maybe she got a new editor.

I really do not feel that I have gotten to know Kinsey in this book. She is almost like a TV character to me, only two dimensional. I don't even know anymore what I am trying to figure out about who done what! I am a mystery lover all the way, but this one will not be on my list of favorites. I'll plod through rest of the "A" book though, and hope that it gets a bit more interesting.

Larry, isn't F2F the selection for the Book Club Online. Are you a crossover too? I can't wait to read this book, it sounds gripping.

GINNY -- I didn't figure it out until toward the end.

--- Papa John

I finished reading this book earlier this afternoon and have a few thoughts to share on it.

I felt that the overall story was pretty well thought out and had some interesting twists and turns. We are lead almost throughout the book to think of one killer, when reality indicates something else (a part of which occurred at about the time of the first murder). The occurrence of two additional murders in the current timeframe of the story added an interesting turn-of-events.

I thought that Kinsey Millhone was a pretty believable character, with logical actions for someone in that line of work. There was a lot of druge work involved in what she did to solve the case, including the other case she was working on involving the insurance claim.

I had to agree with the earlier comments by Ginny and Carol about the unncessary descriptive material throughout the book. Perhaps I was more conscious of it than normal but there did seem to be a lot of it and I skipped over a lot of it to find the continuation of the plot.

I have read several of the books in this series and do feel that they have gotten a lot better. As with any continuing figure in a story or television show, the more time you spend with the characters the more comfortable you become with them. Think that happens in this series of stories as well.

Did anyone think the story line with the children added anything to this story? I didn't.

Larry

What children, Larry? In the two weeks since I completed the book I have forgotten "the children"! I guess that they weren't that important.

Esther

Esther,

As I recall there were three children, or step-children. An older boy who lived on the Salton Sea, a daughter, and the young son (who was deaf). The young son did offer a clue to the story, but don't remember that the other two did. Although, the daughter did talk about how the got out and was killed on the street. Maybe they had more to do with the story than I remember.

Larry

Well, I finally finished the book. I have a terrible confession to make though - I listened to the book on audio cassette! I work in downtown Dallas, and live 20 miles north, so I have 35-45 minutes on the road. I listen to audio books to keep me sane.

This book was deadly boring, but perhaps part of the blame could go to the reader. She was not very inspired. I think that to be fair to Ms. Grafton, I will read the book for the next one.

To answer the questions posted at the beginning of this, I thought that Kinsey did not get revenge on anyone. She actually came out vunerable and hurt by Charlie (if that was supposed to be her husband). I found that the clues were not that hard to find, and that the conclusion was not all that surprising. The latter part of the book did get pretty exciting, though.

I agree with Larry that two murderers was a neat twist. I suspected Charlie as soon as she got involved with him, but Gwen surprised me. I still can't think of a good reason (as described by Nikki) for her to kill him. The children appeared to be just "fillers", and added nothing to the plot. They didn't even add human interest to the story. Same with the insurance claim - except to show that Kinsey was very upset with frauds. Elizabeth George is the only author that I am familiar with who can take many disparate threads and weave them logically into the story at the end.

As to whether I will read her again, yes. I like to sample more than one book by an author, especially if I start with the first book. Therefore, many thanks to the person who chose this book for getting me to try Sue Grafton and Kinsey Milhone.

Carole, I think you will find that you enjoy subsequent books in the series more than the first one. I have read several of them and will probably read more in the future of this series. I suppose a lot of this first book was just trying to get the character established and introduced.

Larry

Carole: I really enjoyed reading your analysis of A is for Alibi . I've started Plum Island by Nelson Demille, and it's a mystery, too, and the choice of the Book Club Online.

I hate to say this, but can you think of a modern author who can draw a character as finely and as interestingly as some of the past masters?

Agatha Christie could have you inside the head of one of her characters (not all, now) in just a few lines. I'm not feeling that about many, no....most of today's mystery authors.

How does anyone compare with Sherlock Holmes, for instance?

What's the most important thing for you in a mystery? The characters? The plot? The special effects?

Ginny

I agree with you about modern writers, but feel that part of the blame is that we have so many of them. Looking in the "Detecting Women" book there is a listing by year of the writers, and recent years take up many, many pages. There are still writers out there who give you your money's worth, it is just a matter of finding them. I like a good plot, character and locale. I like to get involved, and then think about it later. If I am really lucky, I will learn something I new, whether about history, religion, locations, etc. Heavy macho, unnecessary violence, graphic descriptions, etc. are not my thing. I also really like to laugh, and tend to like the books that are humorous.

I have just finished Plum Island, and I liked it a lot. I am busy finishing Minette Walter' "Scolds Bridle". She is a 90's Christie - plot, characters, strange twists, but a bit more violent. She is great!!!!! Michael Palmer is also giving me my money's worth. But yes, you do have to kiss a lot of toads.....!

See you at the party!!!!!

I dislike most English authors and I particularly dislike Agatha Christie. I have read many of her books and I feel that she is unfair to the reader. She withholds clues from her readres and Hercule or Miss M. brillantly solve the case and the reader is left gasping cause the major clue was concealed.

Sue Grafton gets better and worse. "J' and " L" were not my favorite books. "M" is good, but it is hanging on every list the author/publisher can get it on. I think that Ms. Grafton is tired of Kinsey mysteries.

Esther

Oh, Carole and Esther, what interesting thoughts!! I thought about Carole's all day (have just now seen yours, Esther). I love that about if I'm lucky, I'll learn something new.

Why ARE there so many authors now?

I really like atmosphere, I think, best. John Mortimer, I think it was, wrote a stunning short story some years back which was just exquisite: a mystery, a country house, the writing was so rich it was like a dessert. That one didn't have characters you cared about, but normally, if I don't care for the character, I don't care what happens to him/her.

Am so glad to hear Plum Island is good! I'm on page 80 something now, and it's definitely picking up, and turning into a good read, and I can't figure out WHY.

Esther: your post reminded me of the criticism of Agatha Christie: the red herrings, and the surprise endings. Many don't think that's fair when a mystery writer does that... I don't mind red herrings, or surprise endings, as I never solve the thing anyway. So when YOU read a mystery, you like to find, when you're at the end, that the clues have been spaced throughout? You're a careful reader, then.? Do you solve the mysteries you read often? I never do. If I do solve one, it would be obvious to anyone.

When you think of her Ten Little Indians , I thought that thing was brilliant. I could never ever have thought of that, and just gasped my way all the way through it. I guess I'm saying I admire someone who can outsmart me by coming up with something I'd never have considered...I really don't want to think along with or do the detective work with a gumshoe. I think that's why I'm so disenchanted with most of the mysteries today.

Ginny

Hi Everyone,

What a marvelpus discussion you have going here. I haven't read the book. I do plan to get the book as soon as I can and will read it as quickly as possible.

I did try to read one of Sue Grafton's books and I don't remember the name of it. It could have been this one. I did not care for the book at the time and did not finish it. That does not mean that I won't like the book now. I find that my tastes change some from time to time.

I will say that I love Agatha Christie. I think her mysteries are wonderful puzzles. I always solve the mystery in her books as well as most of the others that I read. I like most English mystery writers, as one of the main reasons that I read is for the atmosphere. However ,I do not like Sir Authur Coyan Doyle. I do not like Sherlock Holmes and never have.

Ginny, Thanks for thinking of me when the train crashed in London. It happened the day before I left France for London, I believe. There was also a train crash in France while I was there.

I had a wonderful trip and will write about it in the Travel Folder when I get my wits together.

Keep up the wonderful discussion here.

Joan

I am in total agreement about the atmosphere. I normally like to get to know and respect (if not like) the characters. I also like locales that are interesting and good descriptive language, but not overwhelming. There are always exceptions to the norm, and that is where Book Clubs are so valuable. Instead of staying with the types of books I know I like, I sample some I don't expect to like (deMille) and get a pleasant surprise (or an awful surprise).

As for Agatha Christie, I feel that she usually pointed the reader in the right direction, but she did get a little coy sometimes. She also came up with some pretty astute comments about people and their actions and motivations. I guess I am not the type of reader who is trying to outsmart the writer though, I just want to go along for the ride. I consider the ride worth it if I come back refreshed and enriched.

I would like to be the one who nominates the Mystery we'll start discussing in December: I'd like a Christmas or seasonal mystery, and have two in mind.

Ginny....but not the November one.

Ginny,

That will be great. I am choosing the next one and will try to get it up within the next three days.

Joan

Ok, there's good news and bad news on my December proposed book, so will give the good news first:

The Inn at the Edge of the World by Alice Thomas Ellis, has rave reviews. Ruth Rendell said it is "peopled with marvels." The theme concerns five fugitives from Christmas who are lured by an advertisement to a remote Scottish island..."a shrewd and witty gem." "A ghost story and a shrewd commentary on love and misunderstanding....a fine balance between comedy and tragedy ensures the reader a sense of deep satisfaction after the last page." (Ruth Rendell) "Inhabited by robust or contemplative characters plagued by self-doubt, all observed with delightfully malicious wit."

That's the good news.

The bad news is that it's hard to find. You can get it on the Internet through Bibliofind, their UK (it's a British import) division, for 6 pounds 99, shipping within 48 hours. You can also get it through A Common Reader (which imports it from England) (I-800-832-7323) for $13.99. (paperback) ...it's fairly short, 184 largish print pages, just the thing to read before Christmas if you like a seasonal mystery.

Does someone want to check and see if the Libraries can get it?? I hate to put people to a lot of trouble. How about give your opinion here on whether you'd like to try this one for December or have another?

Ginny

Oh, and I haven't read the book, so can't vouch for the above reviews.

Ginny,

I just checked with my library (and it is a big system) and they do not have the book. I will be very frank to say that I will not spend $14 for a paperback so would just enjoy the discussion and pass on this book.

Larry

Regarding the possible selection, "The Inn at the Edge of the World",I have just gotten off-line from my library, and they don't have this book either. I think it sounds wonderful, and I will enjoy reading the review of those who are able to get this book. I agree with Larry that I don't have the time or the money to obtain this book.

Our next book is An Unsuitable Job for a Woman This is not one of James'recent books. It is available at Barnes and Noble in paperback. Some of you may have already read it. I read it years ago but am looking forward to reding it again for the discussion.

Joan

OK, I agree: if it's not in the libraries, then we can put it aside until it is!

If, by the way, you're looking for the perfect Mystery for a friend for Christmas, you need to give them Christmas Crimes at Puzzel Manor by Simon Brett, only available in the US at the Mystery Guild. There's nothing quite like it.

OK: then, a choice: Silent Night, by Mary Higgins Clark, or Rest You Merry by Charlotte MacLeod?

What do you think about these as the December book?

Ginny

Ginny, Those sound much more accessible and either sounds fine to me. Just let us know which one. Thanks.

Larry

Ginny,

I have one request. Please don't pick the Mary Higgins Clark. I just can't read her books any more. They give me such a strange feeling that I can't read them.

Joan

I love the selection for November. I also read this book years ago, and am looking forward to reading it again. In fact, I have it in my very own tiny library!!!(My book shelves for "keepers"). I am looking forward to the feedback from the members, as that always enriches my appreciation of a book.

For December, I vote for Charlotte MacLeod. I have read one of her books and it was light hearted and fun. I am not a staunch fan of MHC either, but I will read her.

Looks like fun for the rest of the year!!!!!

OK!! I've chosen for the January 15 mystery, which we'll read right before or after Christmas, The Twelve Deaths of Christmas by Marian Babson!!

WHAT?? you say? Well, since the Mary Higgins Clark was not too popular, I went back and decided I didn't want to reread the Charlotte MacLeod Rest You Merry which was her very first book!

If you've not read it, you'll love it. I think it's her best. But I like Marian Babson, too, and don't remember ever reading HER The Twelve Deaths of Christmas , although there IS another book by that name. It's in paperback, and I skimmed the first few pages last night. Seems to be well written, so, if you all don't mind, I vote for that one.

Don't you always read a Christmas mystery? There's something about reading one which goes so nicely with the season...a little sweet and sour...

Ginny (is that OK with everyone??)

Ginny,

I thought we were reading it before Christmas instead of Jan.. Ihave read the one you have chosen. It is good and I don't mind reading it again. Now to find my copy.

Joan

Joan: most confused with book club schedules. Thought the PD James was November 15...aha!! You're right!! It'll be the December 15 book!! Perfect!!

I thought I had read it too, but it seems I read the other one by that name!

Great!! What thinks everyone else?

Ginny

Ginny and Joan, Guess this means that we will need to have another selection after the P. D. James book and before the Christmas book for the 11/15 - 12/14 time period since we spend a month on each Mystery Book.

Larry

Larry,

I have alredy asked Carole Davis to choose the book in fact she has chosen it but has not announced it yet.

Joan

Joan, Great. I am sure Carol has a good book for us to read in November. I am looking forward to learning the title.

I hope to get the P.D. James book from the library tomorrow so that I don't get too behind in this book club. Don't know that I have ever read one of her books.

Larry

Joan- I e-mailed you my response for the selection on October 9th. Haven't you gotten it yet?

I think the Marian Babson selection sounds like fun. What a great choice.

I have just started P.D. James, and even though I read this years ago, it has stayed in my mind. What a wonderful writer she is! This is a very pleasant trip back to a writer I personally will put up there with Agatha and Dorothy!

This is great fun!

Joan asked me to announce the book selection for November (11/15 to 1215). The book is "Road Rage" by Ruth Rendall. I have checked two libraries in my area and there are plenty of copies available. I hope that the book is as good as the critics say it is, but it is hard to go wrong with a writer of Ruth Rendall's quality.

It appears that we have chosen three lady writers in a row. Perhaps we should consider a man for Feb/Mar. Who are some of your favorite male authors?

Again, I hope the selection for Nov.Dec. is an appropriate book to follow P.D. James.

Carole, oh GREAT!! I've heard so much about Road Rage , can't wait to read it!!

Ginny

I certainly don't care whether it is a male or female author as long as it is a good story. I just read the Patricia Cornwell book called "Cause of Death" which was published in July 1996 but is now in paperback. It is a Dr. Kay Scarpetta story and I thought it was a pretty good story.

Larry

Just finished, this moment, "Road Rage" so will look forward to discussing it in November. In the meantime, I will look for more books by Ruth Rendell.

I,too, have a hard time reading MHC. I find it unsettling that this lady raised 5 children by writing these books. They seem twisted to me.

Did I miss something somewhere? The book for Nov. 15 is the P.D. James book isn't it? I just got it from the library but haven't started it yet.

--- Papa John

Papa John, You are quite correct that our discussion time for the P. D. James book has begun. Joan Grimes is enjoying the Great Smokey mountains and was not available when the new discussion was to begin. I have changed the header, but since I don't yet have the book from the library I cannot begin the discussion. I am sure as soon as Joan returns and has a chance to catch her breath, she will have some discussion ideas or a posting to get us started.

If anyone has read the book, please go ahead and begin the discussion by telling us what you thought of the book. Just don't give away the ending, please.

Larry

Fellow Mystery Lovers:

For some reason I had got to this point of my life without having discovered P.D.James. My what a deprived person I've been she is absolutely fabulous. The story is well written with a plausible plot and an absolutly stunning twist at the end. What a pleasure to read, and I will be back to the library for more of her novels.

.....have a great week .........Cam

I got the P. D. James book from the library yesterday and started it last evening. She certainly knows a lot of interesting words. It looks like the story is getting off to an good start. Really wonder if a PI, who is in her early 20's, could get a job like the one in the story?

Also, does anyone know what a "shandy and a Scotch egg" are? Cordelia ordered these in the bar early in the book.

Larry

Larry:

"Scotch eggs" are hard boiled eggs that are coated with a batter-like substance and baked. They are really good to eat. Usually they are eaten cold as "finger food".

"Shandy" is a drink that is light in alcohol.

Pat, I had never heard of either item. Thanks for the information.

Larry

When I lived in Iran (oil brat) there was a large British community, and Shandys were the drink of choice for hot afternoons. This community made Shandys by filling a glass half full of beer and the other half lemonade. They are truly refreshing, and don't get everyone sloshed in the middle of the day.

I adore P.D. James. I have all of her books and she is one of the few authors I don't mind re-reading. The plots are great, but the writing is so excellent that even if you know what is going to happen, the journey there is wonderful. We should have lots of fun with this one.

I haven't been able to get in here since last Friday. I'm in the middle of the book. We are vacationing in Scottsdale, Arizona, and having a great time. I have my laptop and was able to get on line but not able to log in here. Anyway I have that solved now. One of the interesting things about the book is the English English and the fact that it is written enough years ago that she could charge only 5 pounds a day plus expenses. Not very much at today's prices. I noticed that she has a gas ring in her lodging and so can do some of her own cooking. I take it everyone understoon the expression "gas ring" ---- Papa John

Papa John, Sure glad to see that you are back online and having such a good time in Arizona. I have read about 3/4 of the book and find the writing very interesting. I sure haven't figured out the mystery. I have found the characters varied and interesting and realistic. I still have a little problem with someone so young being the PI, but suppose it could happen. There is certainly something going on in the story we don't yet know about and I am sure it will be revealed before the end. Ms. James has a large vocabulary and I have found a number of words that I did not know or things that must be Engligh and not familiar in America. I am enjoying the story and am going to finish it before starting another.

Larry

Hi Everyone,

I am so sorry for being so lax about this discussion. I just have not had time to get the book reread. I will try to read on it some today so that we can have some sort of discussion.

If there are English terms that you do not understand just post them here. I am sure that one of us can explain the meaning. That is one of the things that I enjoy so much about English mysteries. I love seeing the different expressions for things. I am a language person as you all know.

Joan

Well, I finally finished rereading An Unsuitable Job for a Woman and I found it as satisfying as the last time I read it. I did have a hard time, though, realizing that this took place in the 1970s. There was a very distinct feeling of the 20s or 30s about her character. The title was almost Victorian, and so were most of the characters. I guess that is why Larry had a hard time thinking that Cordelia could be a detective. I found her very meek and unsure, just right for the circumstances. The only part I had trouble with was the well and her escape. I found it unbelievable and little too pat.

P.D. James has such a beautiful writing style, and such well constructed plots that I think the pure enjoyment of reading her overwhelms everything else. I would have liked the characters to be a little more real, though.

I think the plot twists,and especially the ending, were outstanding. I was totally in the dark, and this was the second time through!!! The first time was MANY years ago, though.

What a great book. I hope everyone else enjoys this as much as I did.

Carole, I think you spotted what had bothered me about the book. I also felt the well incident was too much. If the cap was too heavy for Cordelia to move, how could the older women?

However, I did like the book and enjoyed the phrasing of the writer. She did have a good plot.

Larry

P.D. James is such an excellent writer that I continue to labor under the impression that she is of the Sayers, Christie and Allingham generation. I was totally unprepared to see a book by her on the New Fiction rack at B&N. Her style is so close to Christie's and her plots and people were so dated, I am curious to see if she can "do the 90s". I think that is why I was so enraptured with this book the first time I read it which was in 1977. I also was young, striving to "make it" and caught in the same time-warp that she was. Now neither she, me, or the world around us is still stuck in the tug of war between being a traditional little lady and wanting to grow and achieve. This tends to make this more of a "period piece", and covers up the wonderful prose and characters she serves up in the book. I would be curious to get my daughter's input on this book to see if the story is a dated as I feel it is, and whether I am fixating on this too much.

Has anyone read her more recent books?

Dear Carole,

I have read everything that she has written. Her recent books are very up to date. I believe that she is the best of the modern writers. She is not at all dated as are Christie and Sayers. I still love Christie and Sayers myself. I enjoy reading about past eras but believe me P. D. James is very very modern and upto date. a suitable Job for a Woman is the first of her books that has the detective, Cordelia Gray as the heroine. Gray was a minor character in some of her Dalgleish series.

To illustrate how modern and up to date James can be here is a synopsis of one of her later books, The Children Of Men:

In the year 2021, the world is a bleak place where all human males have become sterile, and no child can ever be born again. Civilization is giving way to cruelty and despair, and historian Theo Faron has nearly resigned himself to apathy. Then he is asked to join a band of revolutionaries--a move that may hold the key to humanity's survival.

When I read The Children of Men, I read it in French because I happened to find it when I was in France and I could not wait until I got home to find it in English.

I read her books as fast as they come out, just as I do Ruth Rendell's.

By the way I was unable to get Road Rage at our local Barnes and Noble store. I just ordered it from Amazon.

To find out more about P.D. James go to P.D. James

Oh, good! Am I first?? Great! I've not finished the book yet, but have a MILLION questions! Am very much enjoying it, Road Rage not being what it means here at all! Love the title.

But, what is:

1. A quid?

2. What do you think of all the "moral judgements?"

3. Do you know what a "cheese and pickle sandwich" is? That's all I lived on for two weeks! It's not what you think.

4. I had to look up "internecine," tho I had guessed correctly, wrote it in the back endpapers of the book. LOVE a book which makes me look up a word.

5. What is a "West One" address? (Page 80)

Having just come from taking taxis all over Sussex, I'm so in tune with this thing: love the poetry, too!!

So much to discuss, what a great choice,

Ginny

Ginny:

A "quid" is a pound or 20 shillings (before metrification).
A "quid" is also a wad of chewing tobacco!

As for "West One" address, I would gather that this address was in London W1, a very nice place to live, I believe. But I'm not sure.

PATZY!! You're back? Thanks for the "quid," why call it a quid if it's a pound??

Well, that West thing makes sense: isn't there a show called the "Eastenders," and I've seen it once, and they didn't seem to be that well off?

Or did I miss the point of the show? I have read Princess Diana never missed an episode. British TV in general is surprising to me. It seems directed at the average man, not the rich. Even the commercials, which here seem to want to give you something to long for, there seem to be reflecting a lower ideal. Wonder why??

I think that says a lot about the country.

So glad to see you back,

Ginny

Ginny,

A "quid" for a pound is slang just like a "buck" is slang for a dollar.

West 1 is definitely London W1 which is a very good address. Eastenders are from another area of London where people would not be as affluent.

I have not finished Road Rage either. I am enjoying it very much.

I wonder where Carole is. I emailed her toask if she had questions that she wanted up in the heading for discussion but did not get a reply.

Joan

Ginny:

Heard of the rhyme, "Shave and a haircut...two bits" ???

Well, "two bits" is a quarter over here just the same as a "quid" is a pound. A "guinea" is 21 shillings or one pound, one shilling. But they don't refer to "guineas" now since metrification.

Pat

Here I am. I have been on the road quite a bit with my job, and haven't even gotten to start Road Rage yet. I do think the title will confuse some people as it has become such a catch work here for anger at other drivers.

I do apologize for not getting questions to you, but I have just settled back in. I will work on it immediately.

Looking forward to a long reading session, I'll sign off.

Carole,

Thanks for the questions. They are up now.

Carol,

Those look like great questions. I am only about 75 pages into the book so need to get busy and finish it so I can address some of the questions.

Larry

Yes, this is a good book, and the questions are good too. I've always wondered about these tree spike people. While I'm in total agreement about the redwoods, etc., I can't understand why they don't understand that the spikes will kill the tree eventually. Learned about the damage from hammock nails, etc., and what they do to the inside of a tree in an Extension course.

Ginny

Ok, I have read the posts and the book is coming back to me, very slowly. Some of the interesting things that come to me were the way that the police were able to withhold the news of the kidnappings to protect the kidnapped, the weird things that the spike people did without caring for the things that they were trying to save. Also, I thought that they went further then anyone in the US is willing to do to save a place. But, in the same vain, wasn't it interesting how calmly the police handled the sitins and campins that occurred. Its just a different country! As to the appeal of the TV shows there, maybe if we would remember that these people have suffered more than anyone in the states knows about and really do have a different attitude. Look at what happened to London alone during WWll. Their greed gene doesn't seem to have come to the forefront as ours has. But back to the book, I got a kick out of the detective husband's calm nature throughout in spite of almost losing his wife. And, his daughters were corkers but he got through it all. Is this a social commentary? Maybe! I just finished Rendall's "The Crocodile Bird" which is as far as you can get from "Road Rage" but both books do address some of the weird social problems that have arisen in our time. They can be overwhelming,at times.

Dear Anne,

I believe and have for a long time that All of Rendell's books are a social comentary. I really enjoy her books. When she writes her Wexford series, which this one is, she is quite different from when she writes other things. Then she is even more different when she writes as Barbara Vine. To me this is an interesting thing about her.

Joan

I have finally finished the book, and I must admit, this is the first time it has taken me so long to read a book. I don't know whether it was because it was slow reading, or because Ms. Rendall served a fifteen course dinner of topics in this book. I think even the Panick's might have gotten their fill, but then, they way they could eat was totally overwhelming.

Overwhelming is the word I would use describe this book. Ruth Rendall takes on everything - - ecology, protesters, human rights, greed, the typical son-of-the wealthy sterotype, gluttony, "mysterious female persona", etc. etc. I think I would have preferred it if she would have saved some of the lectures for future books.

The story itself was really good. I liked the characters, most especially Inspector Wexford and his dry observant commentary on humans. His comment on the abuse of power on Pg 252 isn't original, but is startlingly clear because it is so short and to the point. I wish the author had kept the rest of her concerns so concise. Wexford plodded along on the investigation no matter what was thrown at him, and I found this the only stable thread throughout the story. Dora was also surprisingly strong under her quiet exterior, and I loved the fact that she was joining the protest at the end of the book.

The ending surprised me completely, and I thought it was the only ending that made sense. No matter what country, what generation, or what political environment is currently fashionable, greed for personal territory has always ruled the human. Nothing has ever stood in its way, and nothing ever will, and I think Ms. Rendall made this very clear. She showed us the misuse of the land, but also the price we pay for growth - population and territorial. We will always change our political and moral stances to fit into our own personal needs as Inspector Wexford states on page 2- would he be prepared to give up his car for the sake of England? What a question.

Let's hear from some more people. Everyone has gone quiet - or is everyone still trying to finish the book??? I got very opinionated here, and expect someone to at least respond, if not refute!!!!!

Carole

P.S. I have to ask you Rendall readers.... is she always this wordy?

I just finished reading Road Rage last evening and have to say it was not my favorite book. It did seem to plod along at a very slow pace and I ended up being completely at a loss to understand what the Ulrike Ranke killing really had to do with this story. I expected that at the end there would be a tie-in and the only one I saw was the involvement of the same Inn owner and the unlikely circumstance of the former brother-in-law being the killer.

I really have no experience with environmentalist to know whether those in America would be similar to those in England. It seemed that the characters were drawn as total fanatics and perhaps that is what some of these people may be.

I did find it interesting that many of these extremeists had hidden agendas and saving the environment involved a personal situation for them rather than the overall good of society.

I found that by the time I got to the last fourth of the book I couldn't wait to get it finished, not because it was so good but because I was really bored with the book. I trust the Ruth Rendell is a better writer than we may have seen in this book.

I thought it was totally unrealistic that Inspector Wexford was allowed to head up a case that involved his wife. I was also surprised at the ending since we were really given very few clues in the story that would indicate who were the masterminds. Perhaps there was a clue in the constantly crying and weak character of Mrs. Struthers.

Enough rambling for now.

Larry

Well, I finally finished the book, and raced in here...and raced through the book too, even, EVEN resorting to something I've not done in ages: speed reading: you know, the finger down the middle of the paragraph. Doubtless I missed a lot.

Carole, that was just brilliant, loved your comments could not improve a whit on any of them. I, too, was surprised by the ending, and did not see it coming at all, tho I might have by the peculiar behavoir of Andrew. I got kind of lost at the end about Ryan???? One minute he's making calls for the group, and then they search the place, and where was he? Just a mention?? I read the last chapter very slowly, something about a psychiatrist?? Kind of an anti climax, don't you think, for Ryan's little plot line?

Yes, Rendell seems a little wordy in this one, and does seem to have many agendas....but it's true to the British, I think. This last trip I felt I really got closer to the feeling of living there, and somehow, I don't know how, her writing in THIS book seems to convey present day England to me.

As usual Larry has noticed some incongruencies I missed! He's right, I think, Wexford would be taken off the case, or I think so anyway...I had missed the fact that the Struthers were actors, and so was totally unprepared for the ending, but Rendell does that in her endings, or has in every book I've read.

I found the character of Dora particularly flat. Am I the only one? Keep in mind how I read it, may have missed the nuances, but, for me, there was no flash of "human" there, and I kept longing for...well, I know we disagree on Christie, but kept longing for one of her "inside the head" of the characters mysteries. Lots of plodding here.

Now, I was shocked by the death of Roxane. And the manner of it, and I'm not sure how that would work in real life? Basing this on an elevator incident with a claustrophobic Italian in England last year. Wouldn't a claustrophobic be delighted to see the sun, not fling themselves off?

The "snatches of blue" really didn't work for me unless (was she?) Dora was extremely nearsighted...I mean, please. Patches of blue instead of thirty blue trumpet morning glories? That didn't hold for me.

The gluttons have certainly stayed in my mind, too. Am getting this plot and the human greed motivations confused with Stones I fear.

Just lots of wordiness, and lots of incidents and characters to filter out...am not sure my brain is up to it, would like to hear from someone who found it "unputdownable" and why.

Ginny

Carole: Everytime I send you an email it says your address has "permanent fatal errors!"

Now, I know you're a mystery buff; is this life imitating art?

Email me if you will so I can see what I'm doing wrong?

Ginny

Hoping to join all of you when we reaaad "The Twelve Deaths of Christmas". The used book store is to call me this week and leet me know if they have it. Any place besides Barnes and Nobels? Not one close. Pittsburgh is the closest.

Jeanine: you can get it at Amazon.com. It's short and also not too expensive, I believe....just do http://www.amazon.com. And they'll mail it.

Then you just hit the search button in the upper left, and type in Twelve Deaths. I don't think it's more than $3.99, could be wrong. But the local Barnes and Noble should be able to get it for you in a hurry.

Will be so neat to have you join us!!

Ginny

I'm new here, and plan to join everyone with the new book selection, 'Twelve Deaths of Christmas'. Will try my local little book shop first, if not, has everyone had good luck ordering through amazon? I haven't ordered anything on-line yet. Scarey!

NETTIE! What a joy to see you here, and yes, I've gotten to the place I order almost everything thru Amazon. I didn't want to give out my credit card number over the Internet, so they have it where you can give the last 4 numbers, and then, during the week, call their 800 number and do the rest.

Then you're set.

Here's what Amazon has to say about The Twelve Deaths of Christmas :

The Twelve Deaths of Christmas by Marian Babson List: $4.99 Our Price: $3.99 You Save: $1.00 (20%)

Availability: This title usually ships within 2-3 days.

Reprint Edition Mass Market Paperback, 170 pages Published by St Martins Mass Market Paper Publication date: November 1, 1996 Dimensions (in inches): 6.79 x 4.21 x .53 ISBN: 0312960395 It's a small book, about 150 pages. But here are some reviews to whet the appetite:

"The Twelve Deaths of Christmas is not only a perfect stocking stuffer for the mystery fan on your Chirstmas list, but a wonderful spine tingler. I like to think of Twelve Deaths as a cross between Ten Little Indians and A Christmas Carol , and reviewers agree: ' In Babson's skilled hands, the old Which-One's- the HOmicidal -Maniac cheastnut flies again-- for a fast-moving, one-stitting treat.' (Kirkus)...."Shawn Coyne

I hope you'll all like it, but if you don't, say so and we'll have a ball discussing it.

Ginny

Ladies, Thank you for all of your help. I found "The Twelve Deaths of Christmas" at Borders Books this afternoon. Shall start reading it and hope to join you in the book club.

Ginny...Thanks so much for your help, and don't worry, I love to express my opinions! <smile>

Hey, where is everyone???? We have only had a few posts about Road Rage and we still have two weeks to go.

It is so nice to have Jeanine and Nettie joining us! I sure hope you all speak up loud and long, as we are pretty quiet this month. It looks like everyone is busy getting ready for the holidays.

Hope to hear from everyone soon!

Carole

Carole: yes, that's one thing we really need to do here, is really chat about the book. Your questions were excellent, hope I can think up some good ones. I'm hoping 1/2 will have liked Twelve Deaths, and 1/2 will have hated it, and we can all just hash it out and have a fun time.

Ginny

3) Do you feel that Ruth Rendell was writing from her own personal convictions? Is this more of a personal protest than a mystery?

If Rendell was writing from her own personal convictions, I ended up not really knowing how she felt. Since she made the environmentalist such "kooks" it would appear she didn't have sympathy with the environmentalists and painted these characters with a comic brush. Yet the whole story seemed to be related to environmental concerns, although it seems that most of these concerns were not well motivated.

Larry

Larry, I agree with you. I almost feel like she was writing something that was Politically Correct and not something she felt passionately about. By the utilization of "kooks", she almost made a parody of the cause. I definitely did not get the impression of personal involvement.

I have read the Twelve Days of Christmas and will be ready for the discussion. It was a light, fast read, which is what I really need right now.

See you later,

Carole

I've started the Twelve Deaths of Christmas and it looks like it's going to be pretty gory!

I just got the 'Twelve Deaths...' from the library, all they had was large print, and they told me since it was a Christmas book, they want it back in a week. Guess I'll have to either take notes, or let it become over due!

I'm just wondering about some issues relating to our Christmas Mystery choice. As you remember, my first pick was Charlotte MacLeod's Rest You Merry . THAT book is a light, frothy, yet satisfying confection...starts out with the hero, Peter Shandy, refusing to comply with his neighbors in decorating their square for Christmas. It's cute, and very well written, and it's where MacLeod started out ALL her following books. There's no gore, no blood, and lots of stuff to learn.

So why choose The Twelve Deaths ? Well, I wanted The Inn at the Edge of the World but it's hard to get..The MacLeod book is the beginning of a LONG series with the same character, and I thought maybe you'd have read it. If you haven't, you would probably be glad you did....the Deaths book is famous, in its own right, and it will be fun to see if we liked it, or not.

But now we have to ask ourselves (and I do apologize, Carole, for barging right INTO your discussion of Rage ), but think, as we read Deaths or as we think about it, we may want to be asking ourselves:

What do I look for in a Holiday Mystery? Do I want to find something that is ultimately uplifting, even if the mystery is solved?

Do I appreciate, or do I need graphic details to convince myself this is a REAL mystery?

The Discussion starts on the 15th!

Ginny

Are we "allowed" to discuss "Twelve Deaths...." yet? <smile>

Nettie: Nope! If we do, we'll burn out. OH, go ahead, say one thing....like opening a present: just one now, and then the rest later.

Ginny

Thanks Mommie (Ginny)! I'm not even finished with it yet, I'm trying to read it real slow! The big thing that has jumped out to me is the lack of physical descriptions of the characters. Interesting...

Oh, I missed that entirely, Nettie! Now, you just put those other presents back under the tree! Hahahahhaha

I finished it this morning, and "mum's the word," until the 15th!!

Thinking about the characters with no description!

Ginny

Okay my lips are sealed! Small problem, my "boyfriend" is packing up the 4X4 with tent, fishing poles, etc., looks like we are going off for a week or so of camping....probably won't leave for at least a day or so cause it's pouring down rain!

I had such clear "pictures" in my mind of the characters that I had to go back and verify that there were no descriptions! I don't know if that's due to my overactive imagination or the writing!

Oh dear, well, Nettie you can either post now, or wait...a WEEK or so?? Oh dear, well, we'll miss you...I think we're supposed to discuss this thru Jan 15th, so if you think you'll be back before then CAMPING??!!?? then you could consider waiting! CAMPING??!!??

I WOULD murder if I had to camp!! Isn't it COLD there?? (said the sissy!!)

Ginny

Jeanne....interesting, huh....I think there was a mention of Iris being a "pretty girl" and a mentioning of older and younger.

Ginny...yea, sorry to be messing this thing up...my first discussion. It's still raining, but think we will be starting out in the very early A.M. (12th). I don't mind the cold, but rainy cold isn't very appealing, especially in a tent! We are camping our way from here (NC coast) to FL. My mother is there, on-line, so I will try to pop-in then.

Why was Eva at her lawyers at the start of the book? Who was Broadmoor? How had Patti "acted out" before moving there? (as referred to by sister Pammi).

?Wow and wow, Nettie!! It'll take me until January 15 to figure out YOUR questions! I wonder where my mind is when I read: missed Eva, thought Broadmoor was an insane asylum, and was never sure about Miss Patti!

Back to the book!!

Be careful out there....

Ginny

Welcome, welcome, all, and a very Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all!

You've noticed I've left a "tag" open, so all our posts will be in a holiday mood--red, if you do nothing, or green if you do: < and then font color=green and then > and there you are! In technicolor.

Anyway, here we are discussing our first Christmas mystery. What did you think of it? I thought Netties questions were better than my own, so put quite a few up top for us to look at...

I especially liked the way the book was crafted: she'd have the murderer speaking, and the chapter titles for the murderer would go right along with the song "The Twelve Days of Christmas...." then the murderer would get a headache, and we'd be back in the world of the normal (??!!??) and Maude, for instance, would be having to take a headache pill!

How many of you thought it was Maud??

Ginny

Well, I thought it was Maude, but also thought this is too obvious. When the killer was revealed, had the feeling that things came together just a little too easily considering how spread out the murders had been. Also thought it a little strange that the police were able to so quickly put each of these murders (accidents) together as being committed by the same person since they were all dissimilar.

I didn't even pick up on the lack of physical descriptions of the characters and guess, as I think about it, I just drew a picture of the person in my mind as I read about them based on their names. For example, I visualized the Major as the military type as portrayed on Bristish TV, very tall and straight backed, grey headed with a goatee. I really never understood the character of Maude's helper, who seemed to have a life other than a household servant.

Larry

Finally, December 15th and I can answer - Broadmoor isn't a "who", it's a "what" or "where" - the insane asylum.

The one person I never did suspect, for very obvious reasons, was Ahmed. There was no way he could have had memories of past Christmases with his mother. I fleetingly considered Patti, but the entrance of her sister seemed to cancel that.

As for Maude, I was on again, off again, with her. The headaches, the thoughts of having the house all to oneself "again", contributed. But other hints kept creeping in to give me doubts.

I didn't really suspect Eva until sometime during the pre-dinner party and I'm not sure what it was that sent me in the right direction.

I don't think we ever did find out why Eva was at the lawyer's or why Patti was so sensitive and Pammi so protective and cautious.

And I agree with Larry that the police decided a little too quickly that all the murders were committed by the same person.

Hi: I found this almost a "horror" story as well as a mystery...the descriptions of the murders were gruesome, especially the girl in the drugstore who was decorating the windows with "snow". I think I minded the fact that the murders were senseless (no bad guy, spurned lover, bank robbery, etc)...just poor innocents who happened to be in Eva's way...no real motive involved.

In retrospect, I agree that Broadmoor was probably an insane asylum and that Eva had confided one or more of her murders to her lawyer and he was trying to tell her she needed psychiatric help.

I kept fluctuating between Maud and Patti...Maud because she had so many headaches and Patti because she had come from Canada as if to escape something...wondered if she had had something to do with her parents' death...and she kept mentioning missing her mother and remembering times with her. Didn't think of Eva until the middle of the party.

The police seemed to play such a minor role and like the other readers, I wondered how they came up with the idea that all these murders were linked...I suppose because there was no motive but...

Certainly an easy read but not a "fun" one because I find myself (when my mind is in limbo) thinking of the murder of the girl in the drugstore as well as those poor people trapped in the house.

Fun discussing it, though and reading your comments.

Deane

Hello! I'm at my mother's home for the day (a comfy bed in the midst of camping!). Enjoyed reading everyone's comments. I had the feeling that it wasn't Maude, only because it seemed too obvious that it was. I'm still confused about the lawyer, it did seem that she could have been there for help about previous problems or murders, but wasn't the lawyer the first victim? I wondered why the police waited so long to go into the house.

Nettie - I think the lawyer was after the children in the park. It may have been the children she was talking to him about and that's why he suggested Broadmoor.

Nettie!! Hello!! AT least you've got a nice warm bed!!

Now, I've got comments on everybody's posts, but before I say them I want to go back and reread just the murderer's chapters...each chapter was only about...what? Two pages, and there were...well, I guess, 11 of them?

Now, I thought the lawyer was the first victim of the inkwell. But I don't understand, Jeanne, what you mean by the children?? What children in the park was the lawyer after? Was Eva running after children, too??

Was also confused about the Mother thing...what happened there?? Did she kill her mother, too??

Back tomorrow,

Ginny

On page 8, still in Chapter I, she's waiting for a bus and has read the headline :NEWS AGENT SLAIN IN SOHO" (actually, that makes the lawyer #3).. "There were children in the bus queue and I smiled at them. I like children and get along well with them. Except for one or two unfortunate exceptions. But I mustn't think about them. It makes my head ache,...."

Then, on page 33, Chapber VII. The lawyer has been killed, and the young girl with the aerosol snow and the police have been at that scene. Detective-Superintendent Knowles is insisting there's a maniac who has committed all the murders..."The kids in Regent's Park Lake, the woman at the newsagent's in Upper Soho, the solicitor in Middle Temple - I had hopes our villain was moving away when that one came in. But now this."

As to her mother - I never gave a thought to that. I don't think we ever hear how her mother died, do we?

Gosh, Guys, what wonderful comments. Well done, Jeanne....missed all that entirely!!

So, actually, as Nettie also asked, HOW many murders were there? Now, the police at the end say there are 12, if you count herself??? Apparently she did NOT survive brain surgery?? Then how could she have been murdered?

Also, if the Lawyer was #3?? how does that fit in?

I agree with Larry those were some pretty spread out murders...and how did the police fit them all to one maniac? And I see Jeanne has indicated a page in which they seem to tie them together? So can we assume (I thought this was London) that this is a small town with a very limited amount of murders?? Think of LONDON!~!

I, too, thought of Maud, also thought it was too pat, enjoyed the author's playing with the reader, tho....then here came Patti as Deane said, and she and her sister keep saying "it's to die for," and "you'll just die!~" hahahahhahha

I'm sorry about the snow thing, Deane. It's the only one like it, tho, did you notice??/ Now why, I do wonder, would she have put that in there??? And on the fire, I have a hard time with the only one door and it blocked...however, having been in two fire alarms in the middle of the night in a hotel in London this past August, I can certainly attest to the panic and non thinking that goes on. I actually waited with a large contingent of Germans, at an ELEVATOR, for Pete's sake, smoke and all. So you would be disoriented.

So Deane and Jeanne both sensed it was Eva at the dinner and the pre-dinner party?? I wish you could remember why. I surely didn't.

I went back and reveiwed each murder with an eye to could an old woman have done it....note that it was a bum in the park, etc., etc....the only one you'd not attribute to a frail old woman was the girl in the drugstore again!!

I bet you Marian Babson herself had such an encounter and thus wrote that one with such passion, you know Stephen King says his writing saves him psychiatrist bills.

Now, Nettie wondered why it took the police so long to go into the house??? What house???

I thought, for a wild moment or two, it might even have been Iris...even tho the murderer talked about Iris....it was just that kind of book....split personality.

Kind of reminds you of the old "Martha? Slowly I turned...." type of thing, doesn't it??

Can we assume the murderer killed her own mother?? OR not??

Think it was really clever of the author not to use physical descriptions. We people the characters in books with our own imaginations, anyway. We all would probably paint a completely different picture of the characters based on our own experiences. Agatha Christie was really good at that.

Are you often disappointed at the illustrations that accompany a book, or do you welcome them??

Ginny

Pardon me for interrupting! NETTIE - I found you instead of you finding me, and in Books & Literature - so glad to see you here and hope the weather is better at the end of the trip.

I met Nettie in Politics - Iraq. We've had quite a discussion there about the present/past/future of the situation. Join us with your opinion if you like. Come back there once inawhile Nettie - as I need another woman now and then - the men are overwhelming at times!

Ella: Well, you are not pardoned, and your penance is to join us all here WITH Nettie, who, as you can see asks wonderful questions: I can see why you and she enjoy debating! Now, look what you've missed, Ella! We're having a ball, and NO, you can't have Nettie back.

Ginny

Golly Gee Whiz, Ginny! You've been to London and I haven't, but from what I read, especially in this book, I get the impression that in London, the police have sole responsibility for certain limited districts. And I thought it was the various districts, not different towns, they were discussing.

I think we have to infer that she did murder her mother. In Chapter XI she says (to herself) "...Not since Mother died - but I mustn't think about that. It will upset me again."

About Patti - she tells Iris, in Chapter VI ...."it's our first real Christmas without our parents. They died in a car crash a month before Christmas last year, and then I was quite ill for a long time." This would indicate, I think that she had a nervous breakdown - perhaps because she was driving the car???

Oh, my goodness, Jeanne! Once again, your sharp eyes have outdone me. Missed the car crash. Am beginning to see why I never guess the murderer!! Saw that about Mother and went out on a mental limb and completely missed the crash. Maybe she WAS driving. Or Mother was coming to see her, or they had had an argument.

Well, heck, yes, I've been to London, but didn't spend much time in jail!! Nor did I get arrested....maybe next time! hahhahahha Have no knowledge of police procedure there, but did go to the doctor, for what that's worth!!

I read this book so fast with so many distractions! Maybe that's why I missed so much. How long (she asked hopefully) did it take you all to read it??

Ginny

Hush, Ginny, Chile - you go stand in a corner for speaking to your Elders that way! And Nettie - while you may stay in these mysterious quarters as long as you like, you must also come help myself and our first FEMALE SECRETARY OF STATE keep a lid on things in the Middle East before these fiery men get us into another war!

Your book sounds great - must read one and get involved! Meanwhile those Stones in the River are also very mysterious.

Ginny,

How long did it take me to read this book. I read it several years ago and did not reread it. I just did not have the time. I am sure that it took me several hours to read it but at the time I read it I was devouring such books at the rate of one a day. and sometimes more. that is really the way that I like to read.

Joan

How long to read it? Well, I only read it after I went to bed, so I guess four or five nights.

I had never heard of Marian Babson so the book and author were both new to me...but as I said before, it was an easy read because there was very little detail or description...mostly conversation or movement.

I usually only read in the evenings or after I go to bed so it took me about 5 nights.

Joan, you certainly are a fast reader...a book a day...do you speed read and skip the detail or do you read every word like I do? Know lots of people can read soooo quickly and their comprehension is acute...but I can't. I have one friend who only reads the right-hand side of the page

...she skips all the sex scenes, the descriptive passages and the left page...

Deane

Deane,

I read every word. I haven't been reading as fast nor have I read as many books in the last year as I used to read.

Joan

Deane: She reads the right HAND SIDE of the right page?? Does she get anything out of it? Why does she do that??

I thought this was a very fast read, and went quickly. I've gotten so that I can't read a book club selection before going to bed (reading self to sleep) as I seem to be so tired in the evenings, I don't get much read...I like to read early in the am, it's quiet here then.

Am I the only one distracted by TV's and converstaions??

If YOU were going to write a Christmas Mystery, what would be YOUR opinion of what's important to include? Did this book have all the elements YOU'D want? I think I'm going to try my hand at one: do help with the elements you'd like to see, and I'll give you credit when OUR bestseller comes out!!

Ginny

Ginny -Guess I didn't explain properly...she only reads the right page; skips the left page. My friend says she gets enough from the story to know what it is about..much like the way my husband watches 2 or 3 shows at once on TV...he flicks from one to the other and says he gets enough from each to know what it is basically about! Not my way of viewing or reading...I want to hear and read every word.

I can't even imagine writing a Christmas mystery or any other type, Ginny...but I am reading "Bird by Bird" by Anne Lamont. It is dubbed "Some Instructions on Writing and Life"...our book reading group selection for January. So far I am enjoying it and I think it would be a help to would-be authors.

One element I really like in any mystery is not knowing who the culprit is until the end...and some humour or comic human weakness to make it "fun" to read.

Be sure to keep us posted about the progress of your book!

Deane

I also read every word of the book, although if I really don't care very much about the book, I will read rather quickly or find that my mind wonders. However, I am afraid I will miss something by skimming. I sometimes think that the author has put in a lot of filler with some of the descriptive material that really doesn't add anything to the furthering of the story.

One of the problems I had with the current story we are discussing is in having to have 12 murders, Babson really had to push reality to think that an insane person would be able to do all of them and have no witnesses. I had a similar concern about F2F in terms of repeating the murder process over and over, although not the witness concern.

Larry

Larry: I hadn't thought of the witness angle...but every murder would have that worry, wouldn't it? In order to do 12 days of murders (and notice the police did not pick up on that theme) as you say, a true murderer might wait it out.

I guess that's where the paranoia and, I guess, psychopath personality comes in....she's talking to somebody, and you can see her suddenly turn into: "I hate her."

I wonder, myself, if the author got the idea from an incident at holiday time, or if the author has had feelings of disassociation herself. She writes pretty convincingly of her rage.

The only one, again, that might be difficult for a frail woman was the drug store clerk, and how many drug stores have YOU been in during the holidays when you had a clear and empty field to kill the poor clerk? I'm usually lined up in a line of 20.

Deane: why does she do that? No time? I think I'd rather not read it at all. I just spent several days in the Library last week looking up some Latin, and DID scan the text with a finger, and it's stultifying work. Your mind, as Larry says, just wanders all over the place after a few hours...can't help it...

I think for a Christmas mystery, I'd want a roaring fire, and a spooky, not necessarily old, house...the filler stuff is what kills a book, almost as if the author had an outline, and then filled in the blanks. I really didn't see that in this book, tho, did you??

Ginny

No, Ginny, I didn't find this book used a lot of descriptive fillers. Everything just kept moving, switching among the three scenes of action - the police, the boarding house and inside our killer's mind.

Wow, I go on the road for one week, and have three pages of posts to read!! Everyone is sure having a great time dissecting this book.

One thing, Ginny, in one of your posts you mentioned that Eva's own death made the twelfth murder, and that this was not a murder. Since the title is the Twelve Deaths of Christmas, not the Twelve Murders of Christmas, her death did indeed make up to twelfth death.

I did not suspect Eva either. In fact, I got so confused getting to know the the cast of characters, I gave up trying to figure it out. I got the feeling that her mother died of natural causes, and that Eva simply could not handle her death.

I am one of those awful "fast" readers who does not read every word, but with all the book clubs I am in, I read about 10 books a month, besides my own choices, and that is after work and on weekends. I get totally bored if I get bogged down in descriptive passages or too much pontificating by the author. I often read, watch TV and sometimes talk on the phone. I guess raising a very vocal family allowed me to do three things at once. I realize that that does not do credit to the author, and there are admittedly many occasions where the author strikes such a chord with me that I really concentrate on the book. Then I go onto a reading marathon where nothing else matters - not food, sleep or anything else. I try to avoid this, and stick to books I don't get too involved in. (AM I AN ADDICT???????) Is there a Readers Anonymous nearby? As I told Deane in the Romance Novels, if I had owned her bookstore, I would have gotten nothing done, but I would have loved every minute of it.

OOPS, got carried away, didn't I? Back to this book - I thought it a bit gruesome for a Christmas book. I think that the death that bothered me the most was the train station. The young boy losing his mother and seeing her die in such a horrible way really got to me. The buring house was almost too much- it was as if the author wanted to hurry up and bring the book to a close. I thought the party was the best (and most improbable)part of the book, as all the personalities met and clashed. What a diverse group of people, and how true of London.

I had a lot of fun with this book, and even recommended it to my Tuesday night Femme Fatale reading club. (I missed the meeting, so don't know what they thought about it!)

I have to go decorate the house and tree now as my daughter and grandchild are coming for Christmas on Monday, and I need to get a little Christmas cheer spread around.

If I miss you all before Christmas,

HAPPY HOLIDAYS!!!!!!

Carole

Ginny - you asked when I first thought it might be Eva...and I said at the dinner party...because she gave such elaborate gifts which did embarrass everyone and the author used such words as "Eva spoke with forced gaity", she was "close to tears" over the recipients' reactions to her gifts, Eva "whirled" on Iris and then on page 170 where it starts "I can't stand much more of this"...I wondered if this was Eva sounding very insecure and unstable ...

...and although Maud seemed a likely choice, that was too obvious.

What is our next mystery selection? Checked the "List of Books to Read" but nothing further listed for the Mystery Club.

Deane

What wonderful posts! Our Pat sent me a note that our color was not working, and I went into the heading where she's done something, so can't wait to see what happens with our Christmas colors. (I've done this one in red myself, Pat).

Carole: Reader's Anonymous?? That's me. We need to open a discussion for that!! Love it...Really, if I don't have a book in progress, I feel lost.

Gruesome for Christmas? Well, that was what I was asking. What DO we want in a Christmas mystery?? No gruesomeness, and maybe some heartwarming stuff, too? I think we'd like an antidote to the endless forced smiles on the TV, but not too gory, at least I don't.

Now, that's a good point, and have put it up in the heading. Which death bothered YOU the most? Yes, the train station was not too good. I never go into a subway I don't think of being pushed, tho. And never have. Never get close enough to the tracks for that to happen. I want to think about which death bothered me the most, and get back.

Now, Deane, I've written in my notes about your post: GOOD POINT!! By the time we were at the Party, I was reading like a maniac, trying to see WHO it was, and missed the references to Eva...would not have guessed. I still, for some strange reason, thought it was Iris....knew it couldn't be Maud, too obvious. Couldn't be Patti: not enough motivation, I didn't think. But Iris, with that curious dissociation the murderer seemed to show, I thought might fit the bill, plus the stuff about having the house to herself again. Anyway, I was wrong.

Deane brings up a good point: what is the next mystery? I think the person leading the discussion "appoints" the next person to nominate the mystery and lead the discussion, but "appointing" is not my thing.

Who has a good mystery they'd like to see us discuss? Who, in short, is up now??

Any suggestions?

And what of Carole's point: which of the murders bothered YOU the most? If any??

PS: Carole: You are 100% right. It WAS the 12th death, not murder!! Ginny

Pat: There was an open font color red...the font crimson and green were not doing anything. Help!! Did this one green in the post itself again.

Ginny

Ginny,

Why not Ask deane to choose the next mystery. since you are the one who is leading this discussion and you are supposed to apoint. the person to choose the next book.

Thanks,

Joan

I think the murder that bothered me the most in this book was the drug store one with the artificial snow. It just gave me chills.

I rode the Washington, D.C. subway and the Atlanta subway systems for several years and never wanted to get very close to the edge of the track. Remember only one time when the crowds were so hugh that you feared being pushed off the platform onto the tracks, which had an electrified third rail.

I never did suspect Iris, although she did seem to be a pivotal character and was really the one that seemed to point to Maude, but some of those pointers may have been when she was talking to Eva and I just thought she was talking or responding to Maude.

This was the first Christmas mystery that I think I have ever read so really have no basis for an opinion on what I would like to see in such a mystery. I thought this was an easy read and enjoyed the story, although did read through some of it very quickly.

What I learned from this book is never to buy artificial Christmas snow!!

Larry

Merry Christmas Everyone!

I just started reading this book I am really disappointed in myself I am usually much better at reading a couple books at once and keeping up. I am so far behind this time. I have never done book clubs before but I always read a lot. Any way.....................

My thoughts as I am reading throught the book.......................

How did the ink get on Maudes banister abd Anne's hand. Did one of the students really put it there or did Maude?

I thought Broadmoor might be a place and not a person...Reaading through the above comments I see it is a place.

It also bothered me a little that Babson descrobes NOTHING. Not the people or the house, not ANYTHING.

Are the headaches a clue? I think at this point Maude is the Killer. She is always complaining of headaches.

Well, Deane, you've been suggested. I'm not an appointer: have you got a mystery you think we'd all like to read next??

Larry: I grew up riding the Philadelphia subways. The first thing a child learns is never to stand close enough to the edge so a good push would send you over. The second thing a child learns is to get off at the next stop if you get separated. I wonder why the mother did not hang back, especially with a child in tow, but there's no use to blame the mother with a homicidial maniac loose.

Now, you've said something I did not catch at first: "I never did suspect Iris, although she did seem to be a pivotal character and was really the one that seemed to point to Maude, but some of those pointers may have been when she was talking to Eva and I just thought she was talking or responding to Maude. " Now, that was a clever thing, and you're right: there WAS some confusion as to who was talking to whom!

And here's our Jeanine from snowy Apollo, Pa!! And also no descriptions of the house, too. I didn't even get that, either. No Victorian, no Georgian, no run down brownstone! Wonder why??

Oh good point with the ink: since you've not reached the end, I'll not tell you WHO DUN IT, but will say, I just thought the ink was left there by OOPS....almost told too much.

What students?? Were there students in the thing, too??

Larry: you don't have to worry about purchasing artificial snow!! You're the last person somebody would take offense to. Just SAW a tree all flocked up with the stuff, and it was really pretty. Like snow on the branches. Bet it's poisonous.

I think that murder bothered me the most, too. It's the suffocation thing...pretty raunchy...I expect she didn't suffocate, but there it is.

I learned a lot from this! Back later with more stuff.

Ginny

I think the girl in the chemist shop and the subway incident are pretty equally upsetting. The fact that the mother was pushed while her little boy was right there was what bothered me.

Are you SURE there was no description of the house? I see a large front porch, a heavy door with a curtained oval glass, a wide center hall with a set of mail boxes on the wall just to the left and just beyond them the door to Maude's apartment. Straight ahead is the kitchen. To the right coming in the door is a lovely staircase, with a landing about halfway up and a turn to the left. There's a storage closet under the stairs and just beyond is the dining room.

Larry - I agree with you... when we first starting discussing this book, I wrote that the murder of the drugstore clerk was what bothered me the most...thought it was revolting..

Joan & Ginny - thanks for your confidence but I would like to wait a bit until I get a better feel of how one leads the discussion, makes up questions, etc. etc. But I will be thinking of a book I think others might like to read for later on...if I get asked!

I have only been participating for about 3 weeks...my remote site was down so couldn't do any "work" so had time to drop in on seniornet...and I am soooo glad I did. Love discussing books ...that's what I missed most when I closed my shop..the discussing of books with others who love to do so, too.

So I will look forward to someone else who is much more experienced at this for the next selection.

A gruesome & graphic death has just occurred in my present book...one by drinking lye...ugh! (A Jane Haddam Holiday Mystery)

Deane

I'm baaack!!! Great comments!! This has been so much fun. Really looking forward to the next one....my suggestion would be to keep them short, look at how much we had to discuss over this little book.

Happy Holidays to you All!

And a MERRY

CHRISTMAS! to all of you, too. I copied that from Megan Breen!!

Would anyone like to be the one who suggests the next mystery? I do think we've had quite a nice discussion on this little book, and welcome back, Nettie!!

Ginny

As far as the most realistic character in the book, I'm having a hard time choosing one. I'm not sure, and really didn't notice this till I tried to pick one, but am not sure ANY of them are realistic. They all seem like stock characters. Again, didn't see that till now.

The one with the most passion was the murderer, yet, I'm not sure that was a realistic portrayal: the emotions may have been realistic, but I'm not sure that they would have been carried out to such an extent? Especially by THAT character??

Ginny

Ginny, How about Jeanne Lee to choose the next book? She hasn't chosen one.

Joan

Ginny,

OK, I'll choose. It is Déja Dead by Kathy Reichs. Here is a litll about the booK:

I's June in Montreal, and Dr. Temperance Brennan, who has left a shaky marriage back home in North Carolina to take on the challenging assignment of director of forsenic anthropology for the province of Quebec, looks foward to a relaxing weekend.

First though, she must stop at a newly uncovered burial site in the heart of the city. One look at eh decomposed and decapitated corpse, stored neatly in plastic bags, tells her she'll spend the weekend in the crime lab. This is homicide fo the worst kind. To begin to find some answers, Tempe must first identify the victim. Who is this person with reddish hair and a small bone structure?

Something about the crime scene is familiar to Tempe: the stashing of the body parts, the meticulous dismemberment. One case in particular comes to mind: the murder of sixteen-year-old Chantale Trotier, who'd arrived in the morgue naked, less that a year before, and packeaged in plastic garbage bags.

Tempe's convinced there are parallels between the two cases, but it will take more victims to persuade her police colleagues.

Knowing there is a killer on the streets who may soon find a new victim, Tempe calls upon her forensic skills, including bone, tooth and bitemark analysis, and X-ray microflourescence to try to prove that the cases are related and to stop the killer before he strikes again. The next victim may be closer to home--Tempe's longtime friend Gabby, her college-age daughter Katy, or Tempe herself.

Told with lacerating authenticty and passion, Déja Dead is both poignant and terrifying as it hurtles toward its page-turning conclusion and instantly catapults its author into the top ranks of crime authors.

The above blurb is copied from the front and back flap of the book. Please don't grade me on the punctuation and composition, as I did not write it. I just copied it.

Everyone please read it. It is supposed to be very good. I have not read it yet but will start it right after Christmas.

Joan

Joan - that book sounds a Patricia Cornwell, doesn't it?

Just called the library and they have it here but it is out right now so my name is next on the list...

Deane

Deane,

I was buying a Patricia Cornwell when the sales person suggested this book to me as one I would like if i like Cornwell. I had aready read a review of it in the newspaper. So I thought I would try it.

Joan

Well, Joan, Deja Dead it is!! I've heard a LOT about it. Thanks for that, and I guess we'll look forward to starting our discussion of it on January 15th?

Meanwhile, now, WHICH character was the most realistic for YOU ALL??

Ginny

Ginny...several times in the book the refer to some of the people staying in Maude's house as students. I believe Patti was one of them. The day of the killing at the subway, Iris was talking to Patti and I believe Patti said she was done with classes. Guess she could have been a teacher but fromthe context I gathered she was a student. In the very beginning it says something about students also. (Of couurse now my mind plays tricks with me and I may have my stories confused!!!)

No snow here. Weather is not the least Christmasy.

So far the worst murder was the one in the subway. All I could think about was the poor child watching his mother get run over. (I'm an ECE person and I guess I look at things from a childs point of view.)

Deja Dead sounds good. After the holidays I will see if our library has it.

EVERYONE HAVE A VEERY MERRY CHRISTMAS

Deja Dead sounds good to me, too, especially if it's anything like Patricia Cornwell. When will we start it?

Jeanne,

The discussion will begin on January 15th.

Joan

O.K., thanks, Joan. I'll try to arrange the timing so I read the book and still have it for discussion. That is, of course, if I can get it!

I will look for the book..Deja Dead...next week.

None of the characters seemed very developed to me, I guess I would choose Iris as the most real, she did things! I found the foam snow the most gruesome murder.

Happy Holidays to All..!!

I also thought that Iris was the most believable character, except for her activities outside the house, which seemed rather strange. If I recall correctly, she was involved in some type of play or theater group.

Larry

Please click on the blue words ofr my card to all of you.

Christmas card

Joan

Joan...BEAUTIFUL family....enjoyed the card and music.

Thank you and a very merry Christmas

Jeanine

Joan...loved the card! Thanks. Are those all YOUR children??

Nettie,

Those are my grandchildren and me.

Joan

Joan: what a sweet card and faces! Thanks so much!!

Listen, everybody, I've got a question about the book. Do help. In the dinner scene, somebody says when Eva gives out the gifts, that it's just like her to do the wrong thing ( obviously my copy of the book is buried in Christmas wrap, am winging it)....so her gifts were wrong? They were too much? They were inappropriate? And, where did she get them? One minute she's shopping for gifts??? And then she appears to be giving her own stuff away? And what was wrong with her choices? And were the recipients ungracious?? And was it because THEY didn't have any as nice? Or what's the deal here? She obviously wasn't trying to WIN them over or BUY THEIR affection??

Am I the only one who stopped over that?

Ginny

Ginny,

I felt this was just further evidence of her mental problems. Also perhaps subconsciously she realized her time was very limited.

Larry

Just a super quickie - I agree with Ginny's confusion. My daughter brought up the fact that perhaps when she went out shopping, the murders she committed caused her not to buy anything, and she then gave away her own belongings. Again, I agree with Larry that she had to know that her time was short and was bringing her life to a close. It was puzzling, though.

I have just finished Deja Dead and I have to say, this book is GRAPHIC to the extreme. It was a very good book, the action was fast enough to keep up the interest, and I think I liked Tempy Brown better then Kay Scarpetta! This will be a good book for discussion, if you have a good knowledge of French and a strong stomach!

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Carole

OH NO.......now I am worried. How graphic is graphic? I just gave my cousin back a book she gave me because I couldn't get past the description of the fighting. I am probably the only person out there who "watched" "Silence of the Lamb" with my eyes closed.

Ginny...as to the gifts, I thought it was because they were too expensive, she was giving away family heirlooms, while the others were giving dime store trinkets.

Jeanine...I'm like you, only I wouldn't even listen to 'Silence of the Lambs'.....I found Jurassic Park too violent...also my knowledge of French is "kissing"....

Jeanine & Nettie,

I could not watch Silence of the Lambs It was too horrible to even think about.

I hated Jurasic Park. It was senseless violence for no reason. why do people subject themselves to such nonesense.

I have better things to do with my time than that kind of thing.

Joan

Jeanine, Nettie and Joan: Me, too. No Silence of the Lambs. Watched the first Jurassic Park through my hand (you do miss a lot that way,) but I liked the premise of the movie.

I'm not sure why cost should be a factor in appropriateness of the gift? It's the expression from the heart that counts, no?

Carole: I do like your daughter's take on the shopping. Do we have any evidence that the murderer was upset by the murders??

Larry and Carole: Why do you think she knew her time was short?? All I see is her planning to live alone and how she could accomplish it? If she had a secret knowledge, I missed it?

That "living alone" is what made me suspect Maude. Are we to think that the murderer lived in the house alone before all the others??? That does not make sense?

Ginny

Ginny,

I did not get the primise of Jurasic Park because the violenc distracted me. I do now that you mention it. It could have been presented without showing the actual violence and the point would have been made better,IMHO.

Sorry to interrupt the flow of your discussion.

Joan

Joan: your comments ARE the flow of the discussion!

I also did not ever watch The Godfather. Any of them. Hate violence, too.

Ginny

No, I don't think the murderer felt any remorse, I kind of thought she wasn't even aware that she was murdering people, rather had blackouts?

With the way many of us seem to feel about violence, maybe we should rethink the new GRAPHIC VIOLENCE selection???

Nettie,

I can read a book with violence because I can skip it if I wish. I can't watch a movie with excess violence. The kind of thing I can't read are Mary Higgins Clark type books. I don't know how to describe this particular thing but it is something that runs through the book that frightens me or makes me feel so uncomfortable that I can't stand the book. Sometimes with Ruth Rendell writing as Barbara Vine, I get this feeling too and I really like most of Rendell's writing. I feel that the probing and being able to describe depths of the criminal mind is rather unnatural. Oh shut up Joan!!

Hi:

Never read Jurasic Park or Godfather...knew they weren't my type. A customer suggested I read a "really good book" which was Silence of the Lambs and I only got 1/3 of the way through before Lecher's insanity got to me...I don't need that stuff...but it was a BIG seller.

Did a couple of Mary Higgins Clark's on tape but they were condensed so really don't have a good idea of her work. Another big seller in my shop, though.

Since we are doing Deja Dead (hoping the library will call this week and tell me it's in) in Jan., I have a suggestion for Feb....one I am reading now and feel it will lead to good discussion because of plot, characters, descriptions and intro into art dealers of Europe.

The title is "The Last Judgement" by Iain Pears...Amazon only has a tradeback edition which is more expensive...I have a paperback put out by Gollancz Crime which was $5.99.

Iain Pears is a journalist and art historian...you can see his books listed at Amazon.

The blurb on cover reads:

In Paris on business, art historian Jonathan Argyll agrees to deliver a minor 18th century painting to a client in Rome. A simple enough task which goes murderously wrong. The client is tortured (it is not described) and shot, another prospective buyer also dies. Why would anyone go to these deadly lengths for such a mediocre work?

With the help of girlfriend Flavia di Stefano of Rome's Art Theft Squad, Argyll sets off on the trail of a secret that has lain undisturbed since the dark days of World War II....

I can hardly put the book down so think other mystery readers might enjoy it as well...no gore other than the mention of the murders...but a whodunit...I am halfway through and still no inkling as to why or who...

Just a suggestion for the cold month of Feb...although it is plenty cold here now.. -11C sunny with 10cm of snow...the trees and lake look just like a painting or Christmas card.

Deane

Deane, fabulous!! I vote YES for your book!

Ginny

All right! We have our book for February 15th chosen. It is The Last Judgement by Iain Pears.

Thanks Deane!

Joan

Wishing you all a Happy Healthy and Prosperous New Year!!

After reading all about Deja Dead (at amazon.com) I must pass on reading the book and joining in the discussion.

Happy New Year Friends!!

And the same from me! I've got a suggestion for the book after the book after, just to let people get a little ahead:

The wonderful See Jane Run by Joy Fielding, in paperback, cheap, and can't- put -downable. If you read one chapter, and CAN put it down, I'll buy you lunch. No violence, no graphics, and don't let ANYBODY tell you the ending! I wouldn't read the synopsis of it, lest they give it away...but you won't regret it.

Ginny

Ginny, That sounds like a good book for the Mystery Book Club.

Happy New Year

Larry

Well I am sorry that I choose a book with violence in it but I fail to see how you can have a mystery without some violence. True some are more graphic than others but most crime is violent. Even the murders in the Agatha Christie's cozies were acts of violence. Deja Dead has much more to it than just the disecting of dead bodies. I just skip those descriptions as I said before.

Happy New Year to you all. Click here for my card. Happy New Year

Joan

Joan, well, we can all see why YOU teach graphics!! Wonderful card! Thanks so much for that. Can't believe I used "graphics" in my post, guess we can all see what I can't do!

Yes, it's a great one, and I've got her new one, too. I love this, I really do, it's such fun.

Happy New Year to all of you, too!

Ginny

Joan: I am sorry if I turned anyone off Deja Dead as it really is a good book. If everyone will just skip the more graphic passages, it is like a new and improved Kay Scarpetta. The lead character is very likeable, the story is very different, the setting is unique. I didn't mean to imply that there was graphic violence in this,the graphics are mostly medical as the lead character is a forensic pathologist, and it is not one of those books that incorporates gruesome tidbits for titillation. It is a really good book- witness the fact that it stayed on the best seller list for a long time and was nominated for several awards. Hey-don't get turned off because of me - - I can't even watch ER on T.V. as I have a VERY queasy stomach.

Ginny and all you other violence haters, I am a charter member of the club. I didn't even go to Jurrassic Park and I couldn't even think about Silence of the Lambs without getting queasy.

Deane: I love your selection. I have this book on my "To be Read" list, and this will boot me into reading it. The reveiws I have read in Mystery News are great. This will be a good one.

Ginny: Is this selection a Mystery? I have never heard of it or the author. What fun, someone totally new!! I vote yes to this also.

I have just squeezed in a wonderful read over the holidays. I was able (finally) to get the new Anne Perry book from the library after being on hold for a month. It is in her William Monk series, and it is the best one yet. The book is called The Silent Cry and this is Perry at her best. She well deserves the designation as the Charles Dickens of the 1990's. If you like the Victorian times, and legal thrillers, this book is for you. It was excellent.

I hope all of you had a safe and happy holiday. Back to work tomorrow!!!

Oh well, it will fill the hole left by my just departed daughter and grandson!

Carole

I have just joined the Mystery Book Club and enjoy all your comments - much as I love to read it will now give me more incentive to read faster. Enge

Enge:

Welcome!! We are delighted that you've joined us, and hope to see you posting in all our book discussions!

Everyone: Pat Scott has just written me that Joan Grimes' husband Frank passed away suddenly yesterday. I'm sure you all join with me in expressing our sorrow and thoughts for her in this difficult time.

Ginny

Carole: Is it a mystery? What an outstanding question, and it will be the first one we put up when we discuss See Jane Run if you all agree to it. So far we have all "yes" votes!

A new author for you?? You will probably want to buy me a car or something after you read it. I'll be thinking of what model I want!!

Am so excited for you discovering this wonderful, I thought, author. Maybe some will hate it, and we'll really get a good discussion going!

Ginny

Anyone wishing to make cards or post flowers for Joan Grimes in remembrance of her dear husband, Frank, please. . .

Click here

If any have already posted some flowers and thoughts, you may like to post them in the new folder also.

Pat

Okay okay...I'm not a wimp...I'm going Monday to get Deja Dead....

Ok Ladies, please explain something to me......If we as adults do not like the violence in Jurasic Park WHY do people let their children watch this movie? I JUST DO NOT GET IT. I may have mentioned before that I am a Two's Teacher in a child care center. Tuesday we had an accident in ouur room. Two little boys were playing dinosaurs. I had asked them to soopt several times and tried to redireect them each time. The end result was one child threw a toy car at another child "because the dinosaur over turned the car." The child that got hit had a cut beside his eye. He went to the doctor to be sure he did not need stitches.

The ending to the book really surprised me. I never would have suspected Miss Manning. The idea that the murder wanted to live a lone made me suuspect Maude also.

Nettie.....interesting thought about the blackouts. I would never have come up with that. Your right though, she didn't seem to remember after that she had killed people.

Joan....I have read a couple of Mary Higgins Clark and I never noticed that "thing" you mentioned. I rather liked her books. I also reaad the book - title left my mind - that her daughter wrote.

Jeanine..in reference to your remark about the children watching Jurasic Park..one evening while I was babysitting for my 4 year old neighbor, he pulled out Jurasic Park from his library of videos (mostly Disney classics) put it in the machine, and we watched it. I was horrified, it didn't appear to upset him at all. When his parents returned, I commented on the violence in the movie, they just laughed, saying they didn't consider it violent. Now this is a very loving caring family...I just don't get it...I guess "the times, they are a changing..."

While I loved the ideas in the first Jurassic Park movie, I do admit I watched a good 1/2 of it behind my hand. I guess I'm a chicken...I can't imagine any child watching it! If they are, maybe it's like Nettie says: the times are changing, either they view it as a cartoon and funny or they are so soaked in that kind of stuff they're hardened. The scene with the Raptors nearly sent me out of the theater. I'm not sure WHY it would be desirable to learn to steel yourself to something like that.

The car scene, also....nothing a two year old should have seen!! Good heavens!!

When you read a book, it's hard, I think, to put your hand over your eyes. You don't know where to come back in!! But it's such fun to discuss the "mystery" here, and to debate all these valid and worthy points...Eyes are my particular folly: don't want to read about eyes, for some reason. Nothing done to eyes.

It's hard to find a book with eye warnings on the cover. Have not read any of the Godfather books! Are they as bad as the movie trailers seem to be?

As far as our Christmas Mystery goes, I didn't catch the black outs, but do seem to remember her thinking something about the murders, from a detached standpoint, as if she didn't do them.

The brain tumor may be a little stretch?? As far as explaining the paranoia?? But then, I don't know much about brain tumors. Hope I never have to!!

Ginny

Ginny

Nettie:

Way to go!!!! I think reading the book will be easier than listening to it on tape, as you can just skip over the descriptive passages. I am going to check it out in book form and try again, as Amy Irving did not do a very good job of reading it on tape. It really is an intriguing(I wish I had spell check) story, and quite different. Anyway, I am glad you decided to risk it. I am waiting with baited breath to see what you think of it, after all this!!!! 8^)

I simply must jump in on the discussion about children and videos. I came of the generation (Spock) that said that children are profoundly influenced by what they see and hear. I read all the horror stories about the violence of children being caused by movies and videos. Then, horror of horrors, my super precious, one-of-a-kind, grandson spent a large portion of our Christmas together watching "Mortal Combat", Jurrasic Park", "Power Rangers" etc along with "Land Before Time V and "Jungle Book". I finally asked him if he was scared, or if he wanted to try the things he saw on the videos. He looked at me as if I was the four year old instead of him, and said "It's just breten, Grandma". I guess that sums it up!!!! My daughter and I talked about it, and realized that most things in the child's world are "breten" and that as we get older and more aware of our vulnerability, we become more afraid and squeamish. I also am of the opinion that the classic Fairy Tales (Grimm, Anderson etc) are just as scary to children, as they play upon the childs deepest fears, whereas, children don't really fear dinosaurs or spacemen.

Now, back to the story. I now remember that the mystery killer did have "memory lapses" and did not remember what she had done. I don't know if this is indicative of a brain tumor, or just selective amnesia, but it did definitely have a big part in her actions.

Ginny- you must really like this author, if you have picked out the style and color of car. I will try to not let that color my opinion though!!! ;-}

I hope everyone has Deja Dead on hold already, as it is still a very popular book.

Carole

Went to the library yesterday, I have the book, Deja Dead, on hold. There are 2 people ahead of me, but it is a 1 week book, so should get it in time...anyone know how long it is?

Nettie: I've got it right in front of me, it's 411 pages, but they're big pages and pretty large print, lots of white...it looks like a fast read, but haven't started it yet.

The Pears book is 224 pages, and also looks very fast, and, of course, on the Fielding, it doesn't matter how long (it's a paperback and short) as you literally can't put it down, except to breathe. I've just got her newest one, hope it's as good.

Ginny

Just dropping back in to say our Carole Davis will be leading the Deja Dead discussion. I've started Deja Dead and find it to be exceptionally well written, tho, I think it's not for the squeamish.

There's quite a lot about the work of a coroner and I'm really learning a lot.

So far I'm really enjoying it.

Ginny

I'm still waiting for the library to call...hope I won't be too far behind..

OOPS!! If you are squeamish, and likely to be bothered by graphic descriptions (I'm thinking of the people bothered by the spray snow in Twelve Deaths SKIP pages 67, and 69 and 70.

Ginny: sill enjoying book, well written, skipping pages above will not hurt you.

Hi All, I finally got DEJA DEAD and have started but afraid I won't be through in time but will talk along the way. It is So well done and I was surprised to discover Reich is from here in Charlotte and is connected with UNCC, a friend works with her. I just didn't realize this was the same Kathy. NETTIE: I just welcomed you in the Cafe. Glad to see that you are a Mystery Lover, Too.

Just finished Deja Dead. Will with hold comments until later.

MimiJ: I didn't know Reichs was from Charlotte!! I'm learning a lot reading this book, and I'll hold off, like Putney, (HI, Fellow Walker!!) until later....am racing to finish, may not make it before tomorrow, but will certainly be through by Friday.

Looks like a VERY nice group!

Ginny

GINNY: Actually, Kathy Reichs is a native of Chicago but is a Professor of anthropology at UNC at Charlotte and the info says she divides her time between Charlotte and Montreal. So far, very graphic, reminds me of P. Cornwell's writing. Fascinating, if you can take it.

Hello again Mimi..! I'm still waiting for the library to call me with the book... Maybe I should go ahead and order The Last Judgement (selection for February) now...

I have Deja Dead and have it started. So far I am finding Tempe to be a very realistic character. While her line of work certainly wouldn't appeal to me, it is informative to learn of some of the things that go on in that area of forensics. I am looking forward to reading the rest of the book.

Carole, you have come up with some very good discussion questions. I need to read more before trying to answer them, however.

Larry

Yeah, me too, but I am moving fast, now. I really like the way she writes, I like sort of the inside knowledge you get from the book, and the forensic pathologist's perspective. It's very well done, I think.

Back tomorrow with a try at one of those excellent questions!

Ginny

Hi,everyone!

I was interested to learn that Kathy herself is from North Carolina. Her character, Tempe, has just left NC behind, along with a marriage and a daughter. I am beginning to wonder if this book is autobiographical!

Can anyone theorize on the first question? Here is a hint. Deja in French means "already".

Yes,everybody, for sure skip over the descriptions of her techniques in the lab, as they are pretty strong. Skipping them will not in any way affect the story, so just jump past them and go on with the story.

Larry, I agree that Tempe is realistic. More so than I am used to in a novel. I keep expecting her to do something super human, or out think everyone around her, as most of the heroes and heroines do. This makes her a little boring, but as you get more involved in the story, it also makes you want to reach into the book and help her.

Nellie - we have a whole month to discuss this, so don't panic! I notice that we all get so interested in the books we race through them, and are left with a month to go before the next one. This one is hard to put down, though.

Thanks for the help, Ginny, Larry and Pat. Thanks also to Joan for picking this book.

Carole

I am almost thru with the book, will finish later today. I think the author has a very believable way with words, quite frankly, felt the whole scenes of the morgue and the autopsies were as real as could be, and I enjoyed the "behind the scenes" look at some things I've wondered about.

I'm confused about the Gabby character, and don't know what to think. They do seem to have a close relationship, but a strange one, can't really relate to it, yet.

More tomorrow,

Ginny

My link to srnet has been down for over a week, and I finished Deja Dead then too. It is back at library, so will have to rely on memory. First the questions;- Yes, title was good. says it all.--Yes I liked Tempe, but didn't think she came across as particularly "likeable". No, not a very "strong" relationship with any one. I felt she kept herself apart.---Perhaps all of the technical descriptions were necessary, but they were very distracting to me..---I liked the location a lot. Descriptions were good,and it gave me a chance to brush up on my very limited French.---Over all, I didn't care that much for the book. It didn't hold my attention. She writes well, I think, and this is her first try at fiction. She certainly knows her field, and if Tempe lives on, I would read the book, hoping there was a bit more story, and a little less talk about the size of saw blades.

Putney: you're dead (hahahahaha) right about the saw blades...that's fascinating to a forensic person, I'm sure....I find myself wondering a little about what type of person would be drawn to such a field?

Her photo on the cover is gorgeous. She's a knock-out, and I did notice when the head was planted in her own yard, she threw up. So, I'm thinking, that out of context these pathologists are the same as the rest of us??

Now, the title: I lack about 1/10th of the book, but the author is now going on and on about the title, and so far, it's of no consequence to me, bet I find out in a couple of pages.

I do like the way she translates her French, and very naturally she does, too. It definitely has a good flavor of Canada, but I've never been there, so can't say if it's true.

On the relationships of all the Detectives, I have no knowledge of how detectives work, but it would seem pointless for a detective to argue with a forensic scientist?? You'd think they'd be sitting at her feet, altho, I do remember the coroner in the Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil Williams murder. Don't know why they didn't call him, or maybe they did and the book didn't bring it out.

A&E did, in their special of it.

I think I'll hold off on the flesh and blood aspect of Tempe's character until I'm through, and be back at ya.

Ginny

OK, I finished the book. Too long. It was well written in parts, but much much too long.

So, now, the Deja Dead refers to her occupation? Or what??

Ginny

What does Deja mean?

Larry

Deja means already-- I just sort of assumed that the title said that the "people" she saw, in her profession, were , - already dead.-?

Thanks Putney.

Larry

I finally got it from the library 2 days ago, and since it was "curl up with a good book weather" I finished it. Turns out the parts I thought I would hate, and would want to skip over, were the parts I enjoyed the most! I was fascinated by the forensic science, and even the descriptions of the different kinds of saws. The murders themselves were too grizzly, the mutilations stomache turning, but suppose that shows she is a good writer, able to invoke feelings. I liked the psychological profiles of serial murderers, too. I didn't find the plot or the story very interesting, fairly predictable.

Well, what did you all think about this Gabby character??

And didn't you think it was just a little too pat that first GAbby came by at night, thus establishing that the PROWLER she later hears COULD be Gabby?? And then after Gabby gets killed, then her DAUGHTER just happens to drop by, and the same scenario occurs: is it the daughter?? Is it a prowler?

Who killed Gabby, anyway? And how did that tie in?? Says the woman who may have read it too fast??

Ginny

I can't get involved in this one. I still haven't been able to get the book.

Ginny...I thought Leo Fortier aka St. Jacques killed Gabby and everyone else, except the prostitutes.

Jeanne, I was late on getting the book, too. I've already put in a hold on the next one...

Come to the SeniorNet Book Revew - Support our Book by adding your comments!

I"ll try again, the server was down this morning.

Nettie: I am glad you didn't find this as horrible as you thought you would. I personally found some parts made me a little queasy, but I just jumped over them and carried on.

I brought up the title, because I thought perhaps it had many implications. Being a forensic anthropologist means working on bones that have been dead quite a while, or "already dead". I also noticed that no one really cared who they were, since they were "already dead" and life had gone on without them. I found this rather tragic, but understandable. I also went so far as to make the title fit Tempe, as her old life was "already dead" and she had started fresh.

I found the two male counterparts very irritating. They seemed almost overdone in their refusal to work with her, or to even check out her theories until almost too late.

I thought that Tempe was a little less believable when she left the lab and went out into the streets and graveyards, all the while knowing that she is being observed by the maniac. She endangers those close to her without even a qualm.

I was glad that the character was at least human enough to get sick when confronted by the grinning skull.. This was a pleasant departure from the "hard as nails" detectives we have become accustomed to.

I have a few more thoughts and/or questions that I have put at the top. Everyone is sailing through this so fast, we will be all finished by the 1st, with nothing to talk about. As if that has ever happened!!!!!

Carole

I thought Tempe acted foolishly, putting herself in danger, but then I suppose that was to make the story exciting. I think if it was to be a series, she should have developed the Gabby character more, and not killed her off in the end.

Ella, could you put a link in here to go to the book review page?

Carole, thanks for your thoughts on the title.

How about this? For some reason, this is not easy for me, but I am getting better. http://www.seniornet.org/cgi-bin/WebX?13@@.ee7192d">OUR BOOK REVIEW

Carole: I thought that was a nice parallel about her life being Deja Dead. Is there a difference between a forensic anthropologist and a coroner?? Or a forensic scientist?? I'm trying but not succeeding , to ask if the word "anthropologist" is unusual in this context?

I just could not get hold of the Gabby character, she was an enigma, and a mess, besides. A lot of the book reminds me of the old movies, where the woman alone heaers a noise, and, armed with only a candle, bravely goes out to investigate...remember those? I always wondered at their unrealistic behavior.

Love the questions up on top: yes, if this is a series, I liked it enough to read the next one, I do admire her clear way with description, and think she wrote the panicky scenes well...just way way too long. Needed an editor with a firmer hand.

Ginny

Ginny...I think a forensic anthropologist would generally deal with old bones, a coroner with new bones.

Nettie: Really? Maybe that's why she threw up when...didn't she throw up twice? Once with the skull on the stick and once with the bag? Well, read an entire book and miss the point, I guess. But then, all the victims were'nt THAT old, were they??

Ginny

I enjoyed this book, although I read it a while back and have kind of forgotten some of it. I do remember thinking that it was a bit too graphic and that part of it went on too long. All that said, I would like to read the next book.

Jo Ann!! So glad to see you here! Yes, I'm looking forward to the Pears book, too, they say you can't put it down. And then there's See Jane Run , I expect you've read that? Carol hasn't, and if she doesn't like it WE ALL have to buy her a new car!! (This is a slight change from former statements~!hahahahha)

Ginny

Now, on the flavor of French Canada, I really didn't feel any flavor?!? What about all of you???

Ginny...I agree, no flora, fauna or food!

I mean, really, if not for the French, which she very courteously translated, 90% of the time, you'd not know where you were?

And that's a good question at the top, because it didn't distract or add or do anything else...one didn't feel one had BEEN anywhere??

Ginny

Here I am again!!! Sorry, but I have been on business trips again and couldn't stay in touch.

First of all, I want to put my two cents worth in on the Gabby discussion. I reached as far as my imagination would take me and couldn't come up with any reason for Gabby to be in the story. There was supposed to be this great friendship, but to me it came across very hollow. The lead to the street people and the so-called research project wasn't necessary to flush out the murderer, as we already knew who he was. Therefore, why have Gabby in the story, and why kill her so terribly? I personally did not need this in the story.

I have to agree with Ginny about the lack of the French "flavor". I did not get the taste or feel of French Canada except for the French words and phrases thrown in everywhere. I was personally disappointed, as I enjoy having an atmospheric "locale" in my books. That way I can mix travel and entertainment!!!!

I, too, and ambivalent about whether this could make a good series. So many authors start off with award winning first books, and then repeat the same story over and over. I am thinking of Elizabeth George and Patricia Cornwell, who both have worn out their characters. I would very much like to see Tempe get a life! If she developed a personality outside of the lab, I would like to continue with her, but as I have no desire to become a forensic anthropoligist(except maybe to dig up ancient Egyptian or Roman bones) I don't need another text book study on how to take apart a body for study.

I will say, though, that this book stayed with me, and if this is the mark of a good book, I must give it a "thumbs up".

It seems as if we are almost ready to give Tempe a rest, but hopefully some more thoughts and ideas will surface on this interesting book.

Carole

I just spend an hour so or reading the part where she went to the cemetary in the middle of the night. The words foolish, stupid, and unrealistic come to mind. Why didn't she just wait until the morning. I thought this scene, while chilling, was totally silly and something you would expect in a horror film of a "B" grade movie.

Larry

Larry, I agree that her actions were foolish, and as I posted earlier, the only reason for it was probably to try to make it a more exciting story.

Larry. You have hit upon the one thing I found that bothered me about Kathy Reichs. Either she hasn't quite gotten into stride yet as an author, or she is not going to be a mystery author!!!

The cemetary scene, the situation with Gabby and most especially the ending of the story all seemed to me to be poorly written, and, as Nettie said, an attempt to make the story more exciting. I hope that as she matures in her writing, that she won't throw those types of scenes in where they don't belong, and just let the story tell itself.

I found that this book (without the contrived scenes mentioned above) actually read a bit like a non-fiction account similar to the series on TV( I have forgotten the name, but it is on A&E or the DiscoveryChannel) about forensic scientists solving murders and mysteries. Perhaps that accounts for why these unnecessary scenes were so jarring and unbelievable!

I personally would be willing to read another book by Kathy Reichs, if only to see if she does develop more realistic characters. Her background and locale are different, and should be utilized more fully to enrich her stories.

Carole

Carole: Yes, I agree. I thought her suspenseful parts of the story were very well written, I think it's probably not easy do to that, but you can SEE where she had to fight to put them in the story, and how badly they fit.

It's almost like a struggle between the two aspects of the story, and the Gabby part was just superficial.

I bet she gets better, tho.

Ginny

(psst...I'm reading the new one, The Last Judgement)

Nettie, how is it?

We're reading King of the Confessors in the History BC and it's the true story of the art world, and I wonder how it will compare??

Ginny

Nettie:

Boy you are fast. You zipped right through Deja Dead and are getting a jump on the new book.

As fast as we are reading, maybe we ought to read two books in a month. Only problem with that is, there are so many wonderful book groups here in Seniornet that I am up to 12 books to read this month, not counting my "wanna" reads.

I have put the Spears book on hold, so hopefully I will have it in timne to join in.

Does anybody have any last thoughts on Deja Dead or is it "ALREADY DEAD"?

Carole

Ginny and Carole, Well, I had it <The Last Judgement> on hold, and it came in sooner than I had thought it would, unlike Deja Dead, that took forever...I could see that being a problem with having 2 a month, trying to locate the books...so in my opinion 1 a month is good.

On reading the cover, I learned this is the third in a series of Jonathan Argyll stories...wonder why we didn't start with the first one? I liked it very much, well written, and full of art, history and Europe.

WEll, I'm looking forward to it, as I'm so enjoying the King of the Confessors ...

Ginny

Well, I'm off to Florida for a couple of weeks...think I did this 2 discussions back...will try to check in from someone's computer if I can, otherwise will join in when I return. see ya'

Nettie: Safe trip, are you taking Toto?? Write when you can, we'll be discussing the Pears book when you return.

Now, I forget, who was the smart one who nominated the The Last Judgment book? Have heard it is fabulous!!

They will want to be leading that discussion on the 15th, and I've got the See Jane Run on the Ides of March...

And Carole, you've done a wonderful job!!

Ginny

Nettie:

Have a safe trip. Be careful of El Nino, as I am hearing that Florida is suffering some really awful weather also!!!

Ginny,

I thought you nominated this month's book! I haven't gotten it yet, but I am next on the library Hold list, and I am looking forward to reading it.

I, too, am working my way through King of the Confessors and enjoying it so far.

I guess we have lost everyone. Come on over to the Romance BC and check out our discussion on Surrender until the next book starts!!!

Carole

Carole: I am new to not only the internet but to the Mystery Book Club. If I understand it correctly, the next book being read is Motion to Suppress and it starts the middle of this month. Are the parameters for reading the book set yet? Do we just read it and discuss it via this section here. If you have a minute or two would you please drop me an e-mail with a few simple instructions about how the club works. I am retired, love reading mysteries and thought I would try my hand at discussing the book while reading it. Thanks Irwin

IRWIN!!

Welcome, welcome!! And while you're waiting for Carole's letter, I'll just say that our next book here is The Last Judgment by Iain Pears, and we'll be set to start discussing it on February 15!!

At the moment, we're just finishing up Deja Dead and then on the Ides of March we'll take up See Jane Run .

Now, the way we've been doing this is that the person who suggested the book will give a few topics for discussion to start us all off, and then we just chatter among ourselves.

If you like a mystery, and you can FIND King of the Confessors by Thomas Hoving, a TRUE mystery, I do wish you'd join us there, as you'll doubless enjoy it a lot.

In fact, do, please, join us in all the 8 other book discussions, we want and need your input!

CAROLE: You, TOO, with the KING OF THE CONFESSORS??? WOW...WHAT a fabulous group. Do come over there and help me with your sharp wit!!

Ginny

Ginny: I don't know where I seen that someone was going to review Motion to Suppress but I will see if I can locate the Last Judgement by Iain Pears so that I can join in beginning the 15th of Feb. By the way this note is for Carole if you sent me an e-mail lately - I lost two messages this morning and they were gone before I knew it so if anyone from the Mystery club sent me an e-mail message, and are reading this message, please resend it so that I can respond. Thanks. Once I locate The Last Judgement, I'll be back in touch with you by posting a message here. Thanks again and I look forward to joining in the discussion. P.S. How do I learn what the other 8 books are that you are reviewing and discussing? Irwin

Irwin, I sent you a letter, and will resend! We have only chosen one more title, and that's See Jane Run for the Ides of March, so you're just in time to help us decide on the next ones. We've only got The Last Judgment and See Jane Run coming up now.

Ginny

Ginny: Too much on my plate to jump into King of the Confessors. I have tried to get The Last Judgement but my library said it is out right now. I am on the list and so they will call me upon its return to the library. Any idea as to who might be doing a review of the book called Motion to Suppress? Also, who is the author of See Jane Run? Got your e-mail message and hope that The Last Judgement comes in on time so that I can join you folks in the discussion. Irwin

Irwin: Joy Fielding is the author of See Jane Run and we have already read and discussed Motion to Suppress , so it's possible you saw an old page or reference somewhere...but I've heard The Last Judgment is great, and am excited about reading it, hope you can get it, too.

Ginny

Ginny : Thanks for the info on the author of See Jane Run. I am one third through Motion to Suppress and it is very good so I intend to finish it before we start The Last Judgement. As I said the library has it (and have put me on the list to get next) and hopefully I will have it in time for the review session. I will also keep my eye out for See jane Run. Thanks for your help. Irwin

Well, our new discussion on Iain Pears's The Last Judgment will start Sunday, and am not sure yet who is leadng that discussion?? If no leader comes forth, guess we can all jump in with both feet!

Back at ya Sunday!

Ginny

Hi Ginny and Gang.

I just got the Ian Pears book from the library today, and am trying to get it read, along with all the other wonderful books in this Books & Literature. I, too, am still working my way through King of the Confessors, and this looks like the perfect compliment to that book!

Ginny, I think you might have hit on a great idea about jumping in with both feet. We could all discuss it without questions or leadership, and see what develops in the discussions! Or, if you all prefer, I will delighted to read as fast as I can, and try to come up with some ideas to get discussions going.

What do you all want to do?????

Carole

Carole, I think it's unfair for you to have to race thru it and post some questions with NO notice, so let's try your first suggestion this time, and see what happens??

You sure did a fabulous job with Deja Dead, and I enjoyed it, would NEVER have come up with those questions, you're good, really GOOD!

Ginny

OK, I"m now 1/2 way thru this very good msytery, a good read, and a fast one.

I like the author's style, his kind of tongue in cheek humor, I like the fact that we have two murders and a possible stolen painting, and I don't have a clue as to why or who, but all so interesting.

I also see I have been misusing the word "provenance," which I now find means "Origin, source: the history of ownership of a valued object or work of art or literature."

But, already, some things have me puzzled: I guess the first one would be Argylle's leaving his bag to go get cigarettes! Now, really, is anybody that gullible?

Would you have left your cosmetics case in a similar situation, not to mention a valuable painting??

Does this interfere with the validity of the story for you or did you think it appropos??

The Death of Socrates IS a real painting, see the heading, but not by the painter Pears uses. How interesting. It's also by a painter in the Neo-Classical style, around the time of the French Revolution: David. See the heading.

Such fun to actually learn something useful as you read, and the author, with his doctorate in Art History from Oxford, is certainly qualified to teach us!

"Research is the secret of the good dealer," he tells us on page 84, and, according to Thomas Hoving, whom we're reading in the King of the Confessors discussion, apparently it's the secret of the curator's world too. How nice to be reading both these at once, feel quite steeped in culture, for a nice change.

Good book so far, perhaps just a tad too much about the different police bureaus???

Ginny

Ginny: I was able to get my copy of The Last Judgement and have started it but must admit it was not a Motion to Suppress although now that I am in it I am curious to continue it to find out exactly who the murderer is and why? I have my suspicions and thoughts but will wait to find out as I proceed. Not ever having been out of the country, I too am having problems keeping up not only with all the police types but also which country they are in. Keeping up with the characters is also something else in that I feel like I need a tablet by my side to keep track of who is who. At one point in the book, the character Flavia summarizes the events which helps the reader get back on track as to who did what to whom. While in my humble opinion, the author does not get your attention in the beginning pages, if you stick with it, it does get better. Part of my problem is that most of the mysteries I have read, the plot takes place in the US and it easier to keep up with it. But I digress. I will write more as I get further into the book. While this author writes well of the subject, his style is one that takes a bit to become accustomed to. The title of the book lends itself to the four themes of judgement as described on page 37, and the characters Flavia and Jonathan, come accross as ones you could relate to although some of the situations they encounter, one would wonder if they would actually act the way they are shown to act (the scene regarding the purchasing of cigarettes for a complete stranger). Well, I've rambled enough. Will voice my opinion again after I read a few more chapters. Irwin

Oh, good points, Irwin! Well said.

Yes, I've just passed the point where he points out the title, but have yet to see how it may even amplify more on the mystery?

I agree with you about the characters, also. I also wonder about some of their actions.

It will be fun to compare "notes!"

Ginny

Hey, troops! Post a "Spoiler Alert" when you give away the plot! Just kidding - I am planning to dive into this tonight. I just finished the Hoving book, and feel that I am ready to solve all the murders and mysteries of the art world.

Seriously, I was excited to receive my newest issue of Mystery News and see a wonderful review of Ian Pears next book, An Instance of the Finger Post. The reviewer stated that this author has given us an excellent and likeable sleuth and his stories never fail to maintain interest while also educating the reader. I am glad it is not like Jonathan Cash's Lovejoy which I personally cannot tolerate!!

I will be posting next weekend with my thoughts, as I will be on the road again this week.

See ya!!!!

Carole

Carole: Didn't mean to sound like I was giving away any of the plot. I just meant that it helped me recall earlier events that occurred. I will post more on the book as I read further into the story. Sounds like this author has another good mystery out there. Has anyone put together any particular points we are to discuss or be aware of to discuss? Later. Irwin

Irwin: No, for some reason this discussion does not have a leader, so we thought we'd just raise the points themselves and then I can post them in the heading as we go for us all to reflect on.

What would be one you'd like to raise??

Ginny

When there are too many characters or people with very unusual names that I cannot pronounce, I am unable to enjoy a book and usually give up after about 50 pages. I think that should be enough time to discover if it is worth while to pursue the plot.

Alice!! Welcome, welcome, I'm with you. The Russian authors really kill me, just have to say "R...." and so forth.

I try to give books 50 pages, as some don't warm up in 20, particularly the older ones.

I'm now reading Road From Coorain and it took a while to create the mood, but it's so different, it's worth it.

So, in this book, The Last Judgement would the character's name Argylle be a put off for you??

Ginny

Hi, I'm new to the book club. I have been reading Dexter Colin's great books. He writes the Inspector Morse books. A good one to start with is: "The Way Through the Woods".

Hey, Jo Ann, and a big welcome, welcome!! We all like Colin Dexter: maybe we should read one of his right after The Last Judgement . I still think that judgement should not have an e in the middle, but who am I?

So many people are having trouble getting in SeniorNet today!!. Now, Jo Ann, have you've got plenty of time to read The Last Judgement, it's a fast read. OR, have you read See Jane Run ? That's our next one....

Whichever, we're so glad to have you, and do visit all our other folders, too!

Ginny

PS: Irwin!! I'm in!!

Ginny: I'm back in too. Regarding the Last Judgement, while it was a good mystery, I too, like Alice felt that there were too many characters involved although that's the way the story went. It is a book that once into it, I did want to keep turning pages to see what was next but I found myself going back so many times trying to see who was who. Pears does a good job regarding the mystery but for this one problem. I hope that See Jane Run is an easier read. Welcome Alice - hope you enjoy the discussions. Welcome Jo Ann . One of the points I would like to raise and it is my first Pears novel is why is it called a Jonathan Argylle mystery. Flavia seems to be the main character in the book in many of the scenes. Jonathan does some of the legwork but Flavia took most of the control in my humble opinion in this particular book. Anyone else agree?

I'm baaack..! Now it's been 3 weeks since I read the book, a long time for me to remember something these days <smile>.

I think I earlier (too early) that I was wondering, after I read the jacket, why we were starting with the 3rd in a series? I liked the character Argylle, the "simple innocent" type, Flavia the "professional". Lots of history, geography, and art. I've always envied the Europeans their ability to travel so easily into other countries the way we travel from state to state.

I always liked the Love Joy series when it was on PBS/A&E.

Nettie: Welcome back, we sure have missed you!

Now, I don't remember who recommended this book, but found it very enjoyable...It's nice to know it's a series.

Frankly, the names put me off, the Argylle I can take, it's the Flavia that really, every time I saw it, it stopped me cold. and that's not what you want in a mystery.

Yes, Irwin, it DOES seem to be about Flavia, and I kept thinking the author wanted to be SURE to include her, and to give her equal if not MORE time, and I kept feeling that was strained on his part, and labored...kind of sighed when she came back into the book: OK, here she is again, let's let her do her thing for the sake of equality stuff....

Hope to finish up the book tomorrow, have been pressed for time, and then have some more cogent thoughts.

Ginny

Yes, welcome back Nettie. You missed all of the "getting here" problems tho.---I have Judgement ordered at the library.Hope it doesn't take too long.-Guess I'll order "Jane"too!

I noticed that Carole mentioned the Mystery News. Is this a freebie? I would like to know how to get it if it is. Thanks.

Happy day!!! I am back home, and I have finished this book. I totally agree with Irwin, I have no earthly idea why this is called a Jonathan Argyll mystery, when Flavia did all the work. In fact, she was a totally unsympathetic character to me. I wanted to tell her to just sit down and shush and let someone else talk. She seemd to have total control of everyone, and not too many feelings about any of them. Not once was she interested in anything that Jonathan had done or what he had to share. Of course, he didn't really do a whole lot, though. I personally didn't get stuck on strange names, but I do what Ginny does. If I don't want to take the time to sound out the name, I just assign my own version to it and off I go!!

I thought it was a nice twist to have the picture that everyone was chasing being the wrong picture. That was great in that it was so understandable. What did you think of the granddaughter. Did you find that she was her grandfather all over again? Was he really such a horrible man? Did he atone for his actions? As I mulled over these thoughts, my opinion of the book got better. After rushing through it to see "who dunnit", I went back and reflected on some of the underlying stories, and found I really got involved in it. I will share a sad little story with you. When my dear, sweet Uncle Elliott was in his final year (91) he gave me Aunt Louise's(his wife of 45 years) sewing box. Inside were patterns and notes of sewing projects for children that I knew were not my cousins. There were also two adorable little Christmas tree hangings, one a little boy and the other a little girl. My Uncle told me that these were for the orphan children that were supposed to come to America from Holland in 1943 to find new, safe homes. My Aunt and Uncle were going to take two of them, although they already had three children. Unfortunately, the ship was torpedoed, and all the children were lost. Therefore, I really related to Muller in this book and wondered what it would be like to not only lose your parents, but your homeland and your identity. Then, on top of that, to think that your father was a traitor would be worse. Did Muller know who his real father was? I was unclear on that.

Anyway,that was what I meant when I said that I had to go back and mull over the story. The fact that the ugliness of 60 years ago was still affecting lives; the blatant theft of the great art in Europe; the greed and hatreds that still exist; and the secrets we are still unfolding from that horrendous time were all woven so skillfully into the story that I didn't really think about it at first, but it did cause me think about these things long after I had closed the book.

So, all in all,I guess I would have to say that I liked the book, although not at first reading. I will definitely read another of his books, just to see if he develops his characters a little more.

No, Jo Ann, Mystery News is not free. I subscribe to it from Black Raven Press for $20 a year. It is chock full of great reviews of new books, interviews with authors, mystery sites on the web, mystery conventions, etc. The only freebie I know is the one our library carries which is about 4 pages and is also quite good. I forgot the name, but when it comes out again, I will let you know.

I would like to recommend another mystery which I found to be a really good read. It is called Hearts and Bones by Margaret Lawrence, and it is about a very independent midwife in upstate New York right after the Revolutionary War. This book was a multiple award winner last year, and it is very different from the standard mystery story in every way. I guess it would be classified as a "Cozy" as there is not any violence in it, but it was suspenseful and the characterization was excellent. I have just obtained the next book in this new series, and can't wait to hop into it.

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand, if anyone hasn't yet gotten this Ian Pears book, or hasn't finished it yet, don't give up. It is a good book, and I want to thank whoever nominated it. When I read, I love to explore different countries, cultures, eras, and everything that makes a story more interesting and gives me a sense of time well spent.

Carole

I enjoyed the book, am sorry I had to return it to the library immediatly, so couldn't go back and re read parts. I still think if we had read the 2 earlier in the series, we may have understood the the relationship between Argylle and Flavia better. I enjoyed their relationship of opposites, she the tough cop, and he the sensitive art dealer.

Well after reading Carole's post above, will go back and finish the book, had given up on Miss Flavia, but only lack a little, Carole's making me see things I surely didn't.

Back at ya shortly.

Carole, what a charming story, so sad...and your Aunt kept the little projects for the children all those years.

That is so touching.

Ginny

Haven't posted here before, but I have been reading The Last Judgement and found it heavy slogging at first. Couldn't seem to get a handle on it at all. However, reading in bed last night, I finally made a breakthrough, and just know it will move along faster now. I didn't read Carol's post (marked it for later) as I hate to know the results.

Doreen!! Welcome, welcome!!

Doreen sounds Irish?? So I used the green! Isn't this wonderful, our little club is humming now, mystery fans do seem to have sharp minds, love the Mystery Corner Discussion, too, and this is just fabulous.

Me, too, back when I'm through, don't lack much.

Ginny

Carole: I finished the book and while it was hard - leastways for me- to get into it , the book itself was a good read once you got past the beginning. However, I cannot in true honesty put Pears at the top of my list for mysteries I enjoy reading. Patricia Cornwell just to name one is much better. But perhaps See Jane Run will be a better read. Another problem I had with the book is trying to keep up with their travels all over Europe. Not being up on my geography, I found it hard to follow when they went from one country to another. But since I enjoy mysteries and this was only my first one to discuss with others it was interesting to see what others thought of the book, author, plot, and so forth. It opens your eyes more when one reads to take more into consideration about how the author put it all together. Well gotta run. I'd be interested in hearing what others thought about the book and I am looking forward to reading the next one and chatting about it. Hopefully, I will be able to lend more to the next conversation. Later - Irwin

WELCOME Doreen! So glad to hear from another Mystery fan. Wow, there are sure a lot of us out there.

Irwin, where were you last month. We had a real good Cornwell-type book called Deja Dead which was very gripping. Again, though, it was out of the country, with strange names and places.

Hey everyone, I am a true to my word. I have gotten another of Mr. Pear's books from the library, called Giotto's Hand (you gotta love the titles anyway) and I'll let you know if it gets better (or catch you up on Flavia, at least)!

If any of you are into suspense,environmental topics and a real "who dunnit" murder mystery, we are going to be reading Tami Hoag's Dark Paradise in the Romance Book Club. This is not at all what you would think of as a traditional romance, and is really something to sink your teeth into.

What a great idea to Mark Message, and read it later. That way we don't spoil our enjoyment of the book, and can get the other's opinions after we have formed our own. Ain't it great to be a "techie"?

Looks like we natives are getting restless. We might need some recommendations for a more adventuresome mystery soon. Any suggestions?

Catch you later!

P.S. I am out looking at cars, Ginny! (Just in case)

Carole, yes, we probably do need to be taking nominations for the next mystery!

For those of you who don't know, I had recommended the See Jane Run and told Carole I was so sure she'd like it, I'd buy her a car if she didn't...but I'm sure Carole would be honest about this, even tho it does appear she's looking before reading??

Can't wait to discuss it with you all on the IDES OF MARCH!!

Ginny

Ginny: Let me know when it is decided which book we will be searching for to read in March if it isn't See Jane Run as I have started reading it and will naturally finish it before the Ides of March. Thanks, Irwin

Irwin, yes, the See Jane Run will be our March 15th book, but we might want to be nominating our April 15th book!! NOW, WHY does that date ring a bell??

hahahahahhahahaha

YES, See Jane Run up next!

Ginny

Well I finished "the Last Judgement" and am of two minds. I really didn't care for the book when I began, and it was very superficial in the middle. A lot of running here and there, and I didn't feel the characters were fleshed out very well. Did'nt know whether the detective was a hero or a clown. However, I quite enjoyed the last section, (although it was rather confusion when Flavia was giving her lecture--i.e. as to Rouxel's reactions, he loved her--he used her...who knows?) All in all, I enjoyed the results of wartime being brought into the present, and would probably take another book by Iain Pears to see if I like it any better.(I admire anyone who writes) I must admit my favourite author (or one of them) is Lawrence Sanders, and was sorry to hear that he just passed away. Look forward to reading See Jane Run, although have only read one or two of Joy Fieldings works.

Doreen- I agree with you totally. The first part of the story was SLOOOOOOOW, but as it finally got moving, it was pretty good! I'll let you know how the next one comes out.

Yes, Ginny, I will be totally fair - but I haven't even gotten the book yet! Gosh, we are fast readers here!

I have just finished a wonderful book by Virginia Lanier. If you like books about the south, dogs, rednecks, murders, and all those wonderful elements of a good story, I would like to nominate Death in Bloodhound Lane.

I would also like to throw in the name of Teri Holbrook, who wrote a wonderful book A Far and Deadly Cry.

These are both award nominees and good stories. For a change of pace, there is always Jonathan Kellerman or John Grisham.

Carole

Yes, we seem to get through these books quickly...most times it seems finding the books takes the most time! The library called, my "See Jane Run" is in.

You are cordially invited
To attend the First Annual Gathering
Of the Book Groups
Of SeniorNet

Thursday, December 10-Sunday December 13
In New York City
in All its Pre Holiday Splendor

Accommodations Are Described in:
Joan Pearson "History: Book Discussion: King of the Confessors" 2/28/98 10:47am

Many Events Planned: Or Go Off On Your Own

Luncheon at Tavern on the Green
Saturday, December 12

All Area SeniorNetters Invited

For Information, email: jonkie@erols.com--- Joan Pearson

If you've gone to The Big Apple at Christmas time you know how magic it is, and you know how it sells out in February.

This hotel is run by nuns and they make no reservations before three months prior, but they have requested ASAP the number and type of rooms we want. Please note for $2.00 more ($69) you can get a double room with bath in room, and for $67, you get shared showers down the hall.

You can cancel up to two days in advance with no penalty. The air is on you: you've 10 months to make the best deal and price.

But the hotel wants our specific room requests (single/double…bath/ no bath) NOW, so they can write back and indicate what they have for us to choose from.
These rates are available to us as a Non-Profit organization and run approximately 1/5 to ¼ the going rate in NYC at the holidays. Alternate date in case of sell out: December 3-6.

We hope this FIRST annual Book Gathering will be a huge success, and we hope to meet many of you for the first time! Next year we'll have it in a different city, but we'll start off with a BANG in the Big Apple, and just have a ball!

DO join us!

If you have any idea you might go, please SEIZE this opportunity and join us!

RSVP

Ginny: I got the message about voting on the next book to review and while I don't rally know how to vote I am putting my suggested choice here for you and all to see. My vote would be for " The Street Lawyer" by John Grisham. I think this is for the Mat selection but if it is for April, that's OK too. Would you please e-mail me back and let me know if this is the way it is done or if I need to re-do it. Thanks, Irwin

Irwin, I wish I could email you, but my email is down, (what else is new??) If you want to nominate The Street Lawyer, consider it nominated and seconded!

I vote for it, too. It seems to be very popular, and is, in fact, in nomination right now in the Book Club Online.

So, that's two votes for April 15 (dreaded day) for The Street Lawyer? Who else has one? I've been hearing a lot about The Caretaker, but am afraid to nominate it.

Ginny

I, too, would like to vote for The Street Lawyer by John Grisham. Just got it from Amazon and it sounds great. You can read the first chapter here:

The Street Lawyer

Eddie

Eddie: And it's all over the place, too, even in the supermarket, so I just picked it up and perused, it looks better in person even than in on the internet (what IS it about a real BOOK vs. the screen)? Anyway, love it, what do the rest of you say??

Ginny

This book, "The Street Lawyer",sounds good to me. I am not a big Grisham fan, but since so many people are, it will be good to read one of his books and discuss it with everyone.

Let me clarify- this is our April book???

I have just started See Jane Run, and it looks like fun. I am afraid that I will not be getting that car after all, Ginny!!!!

Carole

Carole: It looks like it to me, no one else has suggested one, so let's make The Streeet Lawyer our TAX DAY book!!

Whew! Was getting nervous, picking out colors, just all aflame! Glad you like it, looking forward to Irwin's leading the discussion.

Ginny

Good selection. I have read all of the Grisham books to date and put my name on the list at the library when we got back in town on Friday. I was number 300+ but was told the library system had 700 copies so I would hope to have it fairly soon as the check out period is 3 weeks and the book has been out at least a couple of weeks.

Larry

I did read STREET LAWYER. I always like his books--he gets me on the first page--It is a little different than his other books. I am sure it will make a good discussion.

I had put my name on hold for it before the library received their copies. I was 17th so it didn`t take too long. I am not sure how many copies they have, but I did have it in about two weeks.

May, when I was waiting in line at the library, the lady in front of me mentioned she had just returned The Street Lawyer and that she had read it in one evening as she thought it was so good. Sure hope she was right.

Larry

Larry: 700 copies?? Good grief, we DO need to be reading this book. Helen wrote she had gotten it at the Price Club, and I guess that's like our Sam's?

Now, everyone you can read See Jane Run in an evening, and if you haven't read it, I betcha you won't put it down. At all.

Ginny

I'm reading 'See Jane Run'.....a real page turner!

Well said, Nettie. This is truly a mind gripper- it is both scary and exciting. I am afraid of what is coming next, but I can't seem to put it down.

What a great book! Ginny, you did really good with this one.

Hey, Larry, welcome back! How are you? Must be fine if you are battling the library system. I gather I need to put my name on my library's list, from what you all are saying!!!

Don't skip See Jane Run though, it is truly "A real page turner" as Nettie says.

Carole

Once you start See Jane Run you won't be able to put it down but it's a quick read. I liked it and read it in one sitting. Elin

I just received SEE JANE RUN from the library today. From what you are saying, I do want to read this one. I LOVE a page turner mystery!!

Was pleasantly surprised at See Jane Run. The title sure doesn't do anything to grab you, but from the beginning the story sure does. I was so confused with my feelings for Michael, good-bad-good-bad, that I was anxious to read on to see what my next reaction would be. Highly recommend this book. Moves fast, and well written.

Doreen: you hit the nail on the head. One minute you think what a great husband and boy isn't he considerate. Next time you say - can this guy be for real - what is his ulterior motive. Michael surely will keep everyone guessing and want to keep reading to find out what is going to happen next. Have you finished the book yet? What did you think of Paula? Irwin

OK Guys and Gals - Here goes! Nettie - this still a page turner? Everytime you think you have it figured out or guess what happens next, something else pops up or Jane goes in a different direction - But I must agree, it is a good suspenseful page turner. Carole: Were you ever able to put the book down? Have you finished it yet? Elin: Boy, you must either be a real avid reader or have more time on your hands than I do- not to put the book down until you were through although having read it and thoroughly enjoyed it myself, I must agree had I had the time, I agree I would have read it from cover to cover in one sitting. Would you read more of Joy Fieldings books? May - Have you started the book yet? I am sure that you too, will stay with it once you start.

What did you all think about the title? Can you relate to Jane and the predicament she is in? Let me know what your thoughts are about these two questions and then I will present you with some others as we go along. Irwin

Oh yes, I have finished it. Couldn't wait to see how it came out. I have read Joy Fielding before, or at least I thought I had, but if her other books are as good as this, I am a believer. Still think the title left a lot to be desired. Think what makes you pick a book up if you don't know the author is the title. This left me thinking "I am not interested in primary school education." As for Paula, she ended up being an innocent victim of a very devious doctor. I can believe her faith in Michael, I think we have all had people we feel deserve our trust, and who more than a doctor who has saved your child. He was a very dark and evil person, selfish, conniving, and I don't know all what. Anything strange, he seemed to have fallen heir too.

Yes, many ambiguous feelings throughout, for Michael and Paula, the neighbor Carole, and Jane, too! The more you learn about Jane's temper, the more you began to wonder if she was the "bad guy"....

The title See Jane Run....maybe should have been....See Jane Try to Run....! I think we may have all been in the position Jane was in, although not quite as dramatic or life threatening....who to believe, who to trust, where to "run" in times of confusion?

Irwin, yes, that's the ultimate luxury, and maybe triumph of a book: you don't want to put it down.

I think one of the real strong points for me was the feeling that I could VERY MUCH relate to her, just an immediate feeling of empathy for the character and wanting her to be OK, that kept me driven through the book. I loved it.

Ginny

Hi All, Just visiting your folder, as I had read, "See Jane Run" while on vacation quite some time ago and had the same reaction. It grabs you from the first sentence. Recently bought it on tape for my daughter-in-law.

I don't know if it's been mentioned here yet but it is a T.V.movie. I happened to be channel surfing the other night and there it was on the womans channel.

If you can,read the book first. But isn't that usually the better way to go.

Started to say something else but will save it for a later visit as I don't want to reveal anything to those of you still in the reading process.

Hi everyone: Sounds like we picked a winner this time with See Jane Run . So far the only real question seems to be is the title correct for the story. My own humble opinion is that a more suitable title would have been better as it appears that Jane is a mere child rather than a middle age woman. But as long as the title doesn't stop a person (I usually read the jacket cover to determine if I think I will enjoy the book) it is definitely a good read. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to post them and I will be only too glad to answer them and draw the others into the discussion. Enjoy and I will write more later. Regards, Irwin

Just finished reading SEE JANE RUN this evening and my husband is anxious to start it. It really moved along and had some real surprises in it. It's a nice change from a murder mystery. The title is a little misleading since Jane can't run for the most part. I've seldom been a position of not knowing who I can trust but I still feel I can relate to her. Losing one's memory is terribly stressful from all I've read and would hate to have it happen to me. It was a fun read. Carol L

Helen...no I didn't know it was a TV movie...who was in it?

I am enjoying this book too--I am about half done. It does read pretty fast. BTW, my husband watched SEE JANE RUN last week on TV--he said he didn`t recognize any of the actors, but did like it (He didn`t read the book).

You know, I can't get the question Irwin raised, or your comments on the title out of my head! I never gave the title a moment's thought: See Jane Run and now I can't stop thinking about it.

Nobody gives a book a title for no reason. What, I wonder, was somebody trying to imply? She is running, really, away from her....past? or running to find out who she really is?

Or....why that title? Such a good question, Irwin, I haven't a clue as to what it means or why the author has it as the title. And as for does it "reflect the story?".... hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Ginny

Ginny: The title, in this writers humble opinion, came from the scenario set in chapter five where Jane is awaiting the arrival of her husband. She thinks it ironic that her name is JANE as she associates her present situation (alone in a hospital not knowing who she is and awaiting the arrival of a husband who she doesn't know due to her amnesia). It struck her as ironic that her name should be Jane and she associates it with unidentified female bodies found floating in the Boston Harbor or found murdered in the streets. With that thought in mind she lets her mind wander to other famous Jane's such as Lady Jane Grey and Jane of Tarzan fame. As a result, knowing that she appeared to be running from something but not knowing what she makes the statement : You Jane. Plain Jane. See jane. See Jane run. My guess is that Miss Fielding thought that it would be a good title.

Well, gotta run - I look forward to more comments on the book.

Irwin

Irwin, that was brilliant! You are a GOOD reader, I guess in my anxiety to get ON and find OUT, I slid over that one.

I love your questions at the top.

I need to go back and look, but there was ONE instance when she did something I kept screaming at her NO!! NO!! Would not have done that, NO!! Kinda like screaming at the TV screen, and I want to go back and see if I can find that place.

Ginny

I will comment on a couple of the questions (have to think about the others)...I would definitely rate the book a suspense. I remember there were alot of snakes in her dreams (cobras)....doesn't seem to shed any light on her predicament. I felt leary about all characters, but wanted her to talk with Sarah and Daniel, also kept hoping her doctor, the one that was out of the country, would come back.

Nettie: I agree wholeheartedly with you - I had a problem with where the snakes came from. I also had wished during parts of the story that she would stay composed enough to speak her inner most thoughts to people that believed in her and would probably help her. But she was too head strong and thought she could handle it herself. Like the time she did confide in Carole only to learn that Carole believed the story Michael fed her. I also had wished that the doctor she confided in would return to assist her but as we both know - that never happened. Irwin

I thought if Jane had to confide in anyone it should have been her friend, can't remember her name, Denise or something. But I enjoyed the book so much, I have taken another of Joy Fieldings books out. Btw, I asked about The Street Lawyer, at two of my local libraries and one had a waiting list of 158 and the other over 180. Doesn't look like I will be getting that book until 1999.

Doreen...yes, I wanted her to talk to "that" friend, too. Now what was her name?

uh oh....about the Street Lawyer, wonder if it is a cheap paper back?

Nettie, I am sure that the Street Lawyer won't be out in paperback for sometime as it just was published in hardback in the last few weeks.

Larry

Thanks Larry, didn't know it was a new book. That might be a consideration for future selections....older books that can be found in the library.

Nettie & Doreen: I too wanted her to talk to that friend and not only do I not remember who she was, I had to turn the book back to the library today as it was due and therefore, I cannot page through to find out who she was. It was either a Diane or a Denise because I don't think it was Sarah who eventually does befiend her.

If anyone else has any more comments, I'd be only too glad to try and rely on my memory to discuss them with you.

I think her only friend was Diane, too. I have returned it to the library and can't double check, but I would say that no one was really a true good friend.

This book certainly had me see-sawing between disbelief and belief in Michaelbut if I remember correctly, the blurb on the jacket hinted that her husband wasn't exactly Prince Charming. I think I started to get really mad at about the point when he started trying to convince her that her child was dead. Now that was really down and dirty. What a horrible, horrible man, so smooth and caring on the outside, and so rotten on the inside. Do you think his parents created this monster, or had just refused to see what he was as they certainly were protecting him. They couldn't have believed that Jane was a crazy monster and bad mother. I had trouble with the fact that not even the doctors at the hospital could see through him and surely Paula wasn't that besotted. Don't we read about this every day in the papers, - the "nice man" who is a child molester or a serial killer?

I think I am the only one who liked the title. It was so deceptively bland but it really did relate to the state of mind of her husband and his problem. He made her a little girl, as he could only relate to little girls, and he made her as helpless and dependent as a toddler!!! That was the only time he could cope with her and she literally and figuratively had to break out of the chemical and emotiuonal shell and fight as an adult.

I also liked Jane and related strongly to her. Her courage and determination to keep fighting and to keep bobbing up again and again, through all the drugs and misinformation struck a chord with me. I did not like her friends at all as they obviously only saw her surface, not who or what was underneath.

I do not know anything about medical conditions, but I can beleive that one would block out something as horrible as thinking you had killed your husband, and even worse, thinking you had such a horrible reason to want to.

Again, I really liked this book, and will check out some more of her books, even though I do not get a nice new shiny red car from Ginny.

Nettie, I think you are 100% right. I think we should be much more careful in the future about not nominating a "hot" best seller until it has been on the market long enough to be able to obtain it at the library, or it is out in paperback. Don't you all agree? It certainly looks like none of us is going to be able to get the book in time. Do you think we should get a back up book going just in case?

Oh,speajking of books, I have a wonderful book to nominate for May. It is called Abuse of Power by Nancy Taylor Rosenberg. This is a strong book by an author with a solid background in the subject about which she is writing, with a surprise ending and lots of ideas for discussions.

Irwin- many compliments!!! You are asking some really great questions. You are right about getting a great book. We owe lots of thanks to Ginny for this pick!!!

Carole

Carole: Thank you for your feedback. I really appreciate it very much. Who knows what goes on in the mind when something as devastating as what happened to Jane happened. Perhaps we all would lock it up in our sub-conscious. But I agree with you, I am going to read more of Ms Fielding's works and question whether or not we should look for another book for April as I too am having a problem getting the Street Lawyer.

Ginny: Perhaps we should ask everyone what they think of selecting another book for April before we have one or two able to read The Street Lawyer and the others in the cold? Your call.

Well, I agree, I did get the book, but it was pretty expensive, let's call for another vote?

Maybe we could say we HAVE selected Street Lawyer but as a later choice to allow everyone to get their hands on it! So we could...let's see, who was it who had 180 people ahead of her?? What's that, about....

OK, I call for a revote, an assigning of Street Lawyer to a later month (let's decide on that) and call for nominations now for our next book and plenty of time to read it which we don't have.

Carole, what a post! The little girl thing: how perceptive. It's posts like I've read in here that make me so grateful for our book clubs, as I sort of KNEW that, but couldn't put my finger on it.

I remember the intense frustration I felt at toward the end? When she was so drugged? Oh, I do think this book was masterfully written, and surely as a suspense novel I have to give it a 10. Maybe a 20 out of 1-10. Never lost my interst...I, too, have bought another Fielding, we'll have to report here if she keeps on in this great vein, and I'm SO glad that we ALL don't have to buy Carole a new car!!

I vote for a big sigh of relief1!

Now, let's vote again:

1. What is your nomination for our April 15 book? Should be paperback and fairly short?

2. (Why am I doing this? I'm not in charge here!!) Irwin,YOU are the KING here, what month do you say The Street Lawyer should be?

Ginny who is going off right now and find that Margaret Yorke book she enjoyed so much to recommend!

In the "little girl" vein, remember Michael always wanted her to wear her "little girl" flannel nightie?

I vote for a more unpopular book!!

Ginny: KING - Me , I think not. But as for the month - an educated guess and guess is all that it is would be for say July, that will give it a few months to be out and hopefully those people who rush out to get the release as soon as it hits the list will have read it and those of us who have many other things to do in our life in addition to reading will then have the opportunity to get it and the library should have it or the waiting list will be much shorter. So my suggestion is July. I, too, intend to read another of Ms Fielding's works as soon as I find a spare minute. Nettie: Good show - picking up on that nightie thing. What amazed me is how the medicine worked. There towards the end, Jane seemed to be really out of it with regards the medication but apparently it had to be administered every 12 to 24 hours or it wore off. Otherwise how would she have been able to finally get control of her faculties and take off like she did, finally keeping control and coming out on top. All in all, and excellent read.

OK, I vote for July, too, and will pass my hardback on as soon as I read it. If you want it, email me, and I'll take notes so I don't have to rely on my MEMORY (WHAT is that)???

Meanwhile, we're still accepting nominatins, and discussing this book, am proud you all like it, as my last nomination, I seem to remember, was a real dud!

Missed the nightie thing, hate those things, maybe that's why I skipped over it!

Good points!!

Ginny

Visited this site a few days ago when blurb on "See Jane Run" appeared in the upper right hand corner at the top of the page in another Round Table Discussion I visit often. Bought the book on Wednesday, started reading it yesterday and read till 2:30 this morning! Finished! One of those books I wish lasted longer.

I admired Jane's spunk and "in your face type of personality" when she felt justified. She did things I have been tempted to do but refrained!! Whacking the guy on the bus with her bag! Bravo! Yet, in keeping with that strong personality, I did not understand how the child's mother's discovery of abuse of the child by Micheal and her subsequent anger and the injury to him could block that same vulnerable child from her mind to the extent that she never picked the child up from school and left her open for further abuse by Michael. Most of us mother's would have certainly felt the anger and desire to kill the perpetrator yet the welfare of our child would not allow us to abandon that child. That is really the only concept I could not really swallow. Michael was always too good to be true. Paula was a single parent with no resources. Her Knight in Shining Armor appeared and saved her only valuable possession (her daughter)and provided her a means of supporting and educating herself. She believed him. I began to think early on that she would be the one who would finally help Jane. I started thinking that way after Emily revealed what her father had done. I think by then we already knew about Paula's child's nightmares.

Sarah proved to be an excellent friend at the end. How many people take in another family, particularly when they are in the throes of nasty litigation with a highly respected, well known, professional?

Because of the Michael's power it would have been difficult for anyone to break through that tight web he wrapped around Jane in having his loyal Paula as her keeper. How would anyone get through? Sarah was certainly concerned and out spoken at the first dinner but apparantly listened to Michael and didn't follow up or if she did try was cut off at the pass by either Michael or Paula. Same with Diane!

Carole seemed like a loose cannon herself. Too quick to believe Michael and to turn against Jane.

I though the old man, Carole's father was unknowingly one of Jane's best friends.

When I read the part about the snake at the cottage, I could feel Jane's terror. A couple of years ago I was down in our large basement where my crafting area is as well as my computer, I started up the stairs and startled a snake who had apparently slithered through tear in one of the screens in the cellar window. It was between me and the stairs and raised up about a eight inches or a food and was sort of hissing at me and sticking its tongue out. You can't imagine the blood curdling screams that came out of me. Hubby thought I was dying. He had a real hard time getting that snake into a garbage bag with using a broom and admitted he got a little ruffled before he got it released outside in a field again.

I think Michaels turning the snake into a harmless frog was the first indication of his malevolence. His mother's acceptance of his fabrication was indicative of her encouragement of his behavior. His mother's allowing him to share the bathtub as long as she did was deplorable. His problems probably did start there. A bath is such a private thing. I never shared the bath with my children. They had their time and I had mine.

Enough for now. Glad I found this site!

P.S. Already have "Street Lawyer" but hubby conficated it and is reading it now. He makes a book last for several days whereas if I like it I can't put a book down until I've finished it.

Barb...I missed the bathtub scene...? I don't think Jane would have intentionally not picked up her daughter at school. I think that when she had to confront Michael (confront the reality that the man she loved was a child molester) that is what put her over the edge into amnesia.

Barb: What a keen sense of observation and way of explaining the story parts as you did. I must admit though, I had my doubts about Paula up until the end as I couldn't believe that someone could continually give someone medication that appeared to be making them worse when it was supposed to be making them better. You are also right about Sarah - How many of us today can claim to have a friend that would befriend us the way she did knowing that Michael had alot more money and power than what Jane did. I too had mixed feelings about Carole - One minute it looked like she wanted to believe and help Jane, the next minute it looked like she would stab her in the back. You were also right about Carole's father even with his memory problem. Living in Florida, I must admit I have had my share of snake problems and I don't care to have anymore. You also hit the nail on the head about Michael and his mother. Baths are personal and are not to be shared with children. I believe Street Lawyer will be later - perhaps July once we get a vote on it since it is so hard to come by. Stay tuned.

Jean: My thoughts exactly about the pills - Why when she realized they were the cause of her depression, confusion and so forth did she continually take them. I could see how she couldn't get away from the injections (hard to avoid the medication that is being shot into your arm) but I would have become an expert at appearing to take my medication and then disposing of it later. And with regards Michael, Ms Fielding could have written more about him. Most scenes was of him trying to appear as the overly concerned husband taking care of his sick wife. Only later in book when Jane starts to become a real threat to him does some of his wickedness show through like in the one bedroom scene where he curses Jane. As far as his caving in and not pursuing the legal case any further, by this time I think Ms Fielding was ready for the book to end. Thus the part of Paula coming to Jane's rescue due to her own child being molested by Michael was to be the clincher to the novel.

Nettie: I couldn't agree with you more - I think it was a combination of factors, the fact that her husband of eleven plus years had not only violated their daughter but the fact that she had physically hurt him and had the blood on her just made her go over the edge.

I would like to commend all the readers so far for a very good discussion of the book. I have learned a lot from many of you on how to be more observant when reading in addition to being more descriptive with the discussion piece of the review. This has been a real joy for me as well as very educational.

Gosh, I sure am glad I looked in here, what wonderful posts and analyses!

Barb and Jean: wow! So glad you came, thought your contributions were marvelous. I thought I would NOT reread this for the third time, but your posts, and Irwin and Nettie's posts have taken me back to the book for a fourth!

I started rereading at the point of the teacher interview, how well she did that! You feel right in her shoes, the little desk, the expectations, how many of us have done the same. Yet I also felt for the teacher, having been in the very same position myself, but didn't talk to the mother: it was the 8th grade.

What a horrendous thing to even imagine, yet alone live through. I'm not sure what my reaction would be to such a hideous turning in life. Lord, what some of us have to go through in life!!

Jean, I don't think you've overreacted at all, I think you're right. I would hope that any of us in the same situation would think of the child first. Remember an almost similar situation with the Foretich child? Where the mother took the child to....Venezuela or somewhere??

Wonder what happened to the child.

Personally, I think child abuse and molestation should carry it's own penalties. I think the monsters should be castrated and locked up for the rest of their lives. Maybe without anesthesia. Or at the very least, sent to Folsom where they can learn first hand how it feels.

Sorry to be so blunt.

Now, my biggest disappointment was Carole (not you, our Carole, brilliant mystery buff) who did NOT believe her and who would NOT give her the keys to the car so she COULD go get the little girl.

I can sort of see, I guess, what Nettie said about the amnesia? As Barb mentioned, Michael had real power: kind of like that TV movie with Meridith Baxter Birney? The doctor's wife who was scorned and who ended up killing her husband and his new wife? That's a true story, and a fascinating one, about the power of a powerful man who is taken on by his wife.

Need to reread the ending so I can agree/ disagree whether it fell flat.

Barb: good grief, hissing snake? Hubby with bag? He's a better man than I am!! Let it OUT outside? Mercy.

If it were a Copperhead, think I'd have tried to kill it before it killed me or a pet. Those things, even as babies, will turn if you're just walking down the walk, and leap their entire body length, and strike for no reason.

I loved Irwin's point about Michael not turning nasty until she became a real threat. That's probably what sends most of these aberrant people off: the perceived threat.

Jean: I agree with you, couldn't figure out WHY she didn't hide the pill (as Irwin said) in a corner of her mouth. Actually spent, the first time I read this, some time figuring out HOW one would accomplish this (just in case???)....hahhahahahha

Why do you think Fielding did that? Trying to think what purpose that served?? When the author starts playing fast and loose with your credibility, you draw back, and sometimes the author loses you.

Michael was sort of a shallow man, wasn't he? And he WAS a major character. Fielding seems to have the ability to draw you into each character, maybe she didn't want us to empathize with Michael at ALL, and so left him flat. Wonder what our reaction would have been if we HAD developed a liking for him?

Jean: am so sorry to hear you have undergone this devastating experience! It's certainly something that no one can fully understand unless they have beeen involved personally. How did you think Fielding handled the teacher interview and did you think the scenes with Michael and Jane were realistic, not enough or too much??

Am now going to read the ending again so I can discuss with you all whether or not it fell flat.

I like to read a good book all at once, too, like the "can't put it down experience!"

Ginny

PS: Am not sure I "believe" in amnesia, tho? Remember Agatha Christie supposedly had the same thing??

We are interrupting this discussion for a brief message:

KATHARINE GRAHAM'S FASCINATING BOOK "PERSONAL HISTORY" will be discussed starting April 20th. Get your book soon, reserve it at Library, or buy it. Best Buy has the paperback discounted at 35%. IT'S THE BEST BOOK YOU WILL EVER READ ON WATERGATE AND ONE WOMAN'S PLACE IN HISTORY!!

We will now resume our regularly scheduled program. Thank you.

I just finished See Jane Run again, and am not sure I agree that Michael gave up. I'm not sure any attorney in the world would counsel his client accused of child molestation to try for sole custody, and I think Michael's "concern" for Jane in letting her have Emily, but retaining weekend, etc., visits was the idea of his attorney.

Even when Paula came on the scene, all I saw was a regrouping. I don't think very many strategy decisions are made in attorney's offices with both parties present, and I got a distinct feeling of panic and the need to regroup from Michael's lawyer.

Maybe I'm wrong?? I thought the ending was satisfactory, short of pushing him off a bridge.

Has anyone read any of her other books? I have her latest, but have not started it yet: note that another title of hers is Kiss Mommy Goodbye: wonder if she writes on this theme a lot?

Ginny

Ginny: I thought too that the story had a fairly substantial ending given all that transpired with him and the children. To go any further would have jst delayed the ending that was inevitable. I haven't read any of Ms Fielding's other books yet. Wrapped up in some other projects at the moment and really can't squeeze it in. I thought everyone's comments on the book were great though and only wish I would have gotten the book closer to the time we were to discuss it so that I would have had it during the review. Oh well, live and learn as they say. I'll know better next time. Any word on the book for April yet?

Can you stand one more commercial?

MARCH MADNESS Comes to Books & Lit!

NCAA FINAL FOUR

Feeling Lucky? You might just win the May book selection,
The Color of Water

Deadline for all guesses is MIDNIGHT, March 27!

March Madness Headquarters
THANKS!

Well, Irwin, I think we probably should take nominations now for our April 15th book, as we've decided to delay The Street Lawyer until? June?? July??

So I'd say the floor is now open for nominations, and we need to have a paperback this time, perhaps, since The Street Lawyer is a very expensive hardback?

Didn't somebody mention Anne Perry? I'm going to go look up Margaret Yorke and see what is available by her: she's the greatest.

Back asap,

Ginny

WEll, drew a blank on Margaret Yorke! The ones I'd like to read are either out of print or hardback.

So, I'll nominate another oldie but goodie: The Nun in the Closet by Dorothy Gillman.

Have you read that one? Heard a whole literary book group the other day go bonkers over it, but it's an oldie...Gillman writes the Mrs. Pollifax series.

Let me be sure we can get it, that's my nomination, what's YOURS??

Ginny

Wow! What a group!!!!!!! We have really jumped into this book, and the posts are awesome. I don't know when I can remember enjoying a book and the discussion of it so much. We all found a lot to discuss in this one. I have to put my two cents worth in on the discussion of her continuing to take the medicine. Remember, she was nearly brainwashed into believing the story her husband and Paula told her, and she throught the medicine was a good escape. I have never taken any type of tranquilizers, but I would guess that the effect becomes lasting in the system, and that mentally, the dependence on them could grow. Anyway, I was surprised that she actually had the strength to try to ease off them, even when Paula was demanding that she take them.

Also, I thought that the amnesia came on for two reasons. One, she found out about her husband's abuse of her daughter, and two, she thought she had killed him. That would be enough to put me in the ozone, I'm sure.

I have to admit, when each of you start dumping on Carole, I have to stop and remember that it is the character, not me. Not that many people spell it that way, so I am caught unawares.

I am so glad you have postponed Street Lawyer as I am still 20th on the list at the library, and I really don't want to buy it. It probably will be June or July before I finally get it.

I would like to recommend two books, depending on how serious we want to get.

1) Abuse of Power by Nancy Taylor Rosenberg. This is the story of a female cop in California who runs up against the male bonding system in the force. The author is a former policywoman, and writes with power and understanding. Not a happy ending.

2) Defend and Betray Anne Perry. This is the award winning story of William Monk, a Victorian private eye. Ms. Perry has been rightfully called the modern Dickens. I personally liked the first book in this series Face of a Stranger best, but this one is without a doubt, the most powerful in the William Monk series.

Be sure and let us know soon-

Carole

Carole: Is Defend and Betray in paperback? Maybe we SHOULD read an Anne Perry, what do you all think?? WHERE is everybody? Calling all mystery fans!!

Ginny

Well since I had a discussion with my daughter-in-law today about Anne Perry's past I'll just put my two cents worth in here. My daughter-in-law did not know about it. I assume that everyone here does know about it. If you don't then you may read about it at by clicking here Interview with Anne Perry

Considering happenings with juveniles crimes and discussions that have gone on in other places on SeniorNet,I really don't want to read an Anne Perry book for discussion here. Of course that is just my one vote.

Joan

While I haven't read See Jane Run I did get it at the library the other day and my wife picked it up and she didn't want to put it down. She finished it very quickly and said it was a page-turner.

I have read several of the Nancy Taylor Rosenberg books and enjoyed most of them. I have never read any Ann Perry books.

Larry

Well, I have been trying to get Nun in the Closet by Dorothy Gillman just to see what it is like and whether or not I want to nominate that one. Having read the interview Joan mentions I must agree with Joan on not wanting to read an Anne Perry novel. I cannot get to my library until after lunch so other than a selection I read some time ago called Grand Jury by I think it was Phillip Friedman, I am at a loss to nominate a good mystery at the moment. I will check later posts to see what develops.

Irwin

Irwin, I think Nun in the Closet has been reprinted in paperback, tell you what?

Let's scrap that one (except if you haven't read it you'll be so sorry you missed it) and scrap the Anne Perry and take on a Janet Evanovich: don't know which one, but let's try one!

Let's have the Nancy Taylor Rosenberg and the Evanovich (whichever one you all like) and any other paperback you'd like!

We've got The Street Lawyer for July, need one for the last of April.

What do you say? Going to get info on Evanovich.

Ginny

Ginny: OK I will check into Evanovich the next time I go to the library and see if any of her Paperbacks are available. Talk to you after you have looked into Evanovich. let me know what you find out and I will be back in touch with you as soon as I find anything out. Fair enough? It may be a day or two though cause tomorrow is going to be a busy day and we have company coming this weekend.

Here are some of the paperback Evanovich's:

From Booklist , 09/01/94: One for the Money:

Evanovich's debut introduces one of the funniest, most appealing new heroines to stroll down the mean streets in a long while. Stephanie Plum, a New Jersey native, is a laid-off discount lingerie buyer. Desperate for bucks, she decides to pursue a career as an "apprehension agent," tracking down scofflaws for her bail bondsman cousin, Vinnie. Her first mission: to bring in Joe Morelli, a cop accused of murder. Apprehending Joe is worth $10,000--plus it offers sweet revenge for Stephanie, who first encountered Joe when he introduced her to sex behind the eclair case of the Trenton bakery where she worked in high school. But bringing in a fugitive is tougher than Stephanie thought--she's pursued by a psycho nutcase, her best informants are a couple of hookers, her borrowed car is bombed, and she shoots her expensive new handbag instead of blowing away bad guy Jimmy Alpha. Evanovich's writing is as smooth, clever, and laugh-aloud funny as Robert Parker at his best, her plot is ingenious and fresh, her dialogue is breezy, bright, and witty, and gutsy, impulsive Stephanie Plum . . . ooh-la-la! What a woman! Film rights to Tri-Star and Alternate Selection of the Mystery Guild status augur a winner in the making. Copyright© 1994, American Library Association. All rights reserved --This text refers to the hardcover edition of this title.

Three to get Ready:

Mystery Editor's Recommended Book, 03/01/97: As readers of Janet Evanovich's two previous books about funny, feisty, family-tied bounty hunter Stephanie Plum already know, she operates in "the burg"--a "comfy residential chunk of Trenton, New Jersey, where houses and minds are proud to be narrow and hearts are generously wide open." On this turf, Plum fights for justice and fashion points--this time in pursuit of a beloved neighborhood candystore owner who seems to be moonlighting as an anti-drug vigilante. Evanovich now lives in New Hampshire, but authentic affection for Trenton energizes her prose. Plums in paperback include One for the Money and Two for the Dough.

Two for the Dough Synopsis: Evanovich follows the fanfare which greeted her New Jersey bounty hunter character, Stephanie Plum, in One for the Money with a brand-new mystery. On a mission to bring in an errant felon--whose inadvertent shooting of his best friend has set off an all-out manhunt for gunrunners and illegal weapons--Stephanie is targeted for a nasty death by the most loathsome lunatic she's ever encountered.

Customer Comments A Reader from Columbus, Ohio , 08/15/97, rating=10: The description of her grandmother alone had me in stitches. It is not often that I read a mystery and laugh so hard that my stomach hurts. I can hardly wait for #3. A great, entertaining read. I love her characters.

So now, they look like fun, somebody go get the Nancy Taylor Rosenberg they recommend and we can choose all thru next week.

Ginny

PS: Everybody over in the Mystery Corner is saying if we want to read Evanovich, we'll want to start with her first one: One For the Money . It's a series and they say you'll want to see the character develop.

Ginny

Ginny: Got the post about One For the Money, Two for the Dough, and Three to Get Ready by Evanovich. Will see if One for the Money is in our library. If it is , sounds like it would be an excellent candidate for April's read. Will let you know how I fare.

I am new here and I would like to join the Mystery Book Club. How do I do that? I just posted a message in "Mystery Corner" then I discovered this... how is this different? A little help here, please. I have read and enjoyed "See Jane Run" then tried some of Fielding's other books but did not care that much for them.

Jeryn, I left you a welcome message in the Mystery Corner, but want to answer your question about the difference in these two discussions. The Mystery Corner is really just a discussion about mystery books in general rather than a discussion of a particular mystery book. In our book clubs (and now in a couple of separate specific book discussions outside of the book clubs) we select a specific book and discuss that book for a period of time, usually a month.

If you click on the blue "Books & Literature Guide" and the "Reading Schedule for Book Clubs" shown above, you will get a better picture of all of the different book clubs, specific book discussions, and the other general discussions such as "The Library--A Conversation Nook" that make up the Books and Literature area here on SeniorNet.

We have read and discussed many interesting (and a couple not so interesting books) since we started a year ago last October.

We hope you will join us in as many of the different book clubs and discussions as you can. It is the combination of everyones contributions to the discussions that make them so unique and enjoyable for all participating.

Larry

Larry

Welcome Jeryn!!

I am happy to see you here. Just read the next book when it is chosen and join in the discussion and you are automatically a member.

Joan

Larry, Joan: Thank you for taking the time to welcome me and answer my questions. I read "See Jane Run" a long time ago and have mostly forgotten it so I will just wait for the next selection. I am still a little mixed up but I am reading Grisham's "The Street Lawyer" now as it is due back at the library soon. Tell me again what the next selection is--"One for the Money" by Janet Evanovich? or was that part of the Mystery Corner discussion? I'll try to pay better attention!

Jeryn, I don't think we have yet decided upon the next book. If we have I have also missed the announcement.

Larry

Larry & Jeryn: You are right, we haven't as yet decided on the next book to review. A suggestion was made to consider One For the Money by Evanovich but at this point that is only a suggestion. We haven't even voted yet. I am patiently waiting too. I am sure as soon as Joan or Ginny can, we will hear from them as to what the options are and then we can vote and come to a decision as to what April's book will be to review. Hope everyone has a Happy Easter. Irwin

Irwin,

The method for choice in here is supposed to be that the person who is to lead the next discussion is supposed to choose the book to be read. There is not really supposed to be any voting. If you are planning to lead the next discussion then just choose the book. It is very late now as the discussion is supposed to start on the 15th of April.

Joan

Hi, Everybody, am back again, raring to go. Bought a Robin Cook on my trip, which looks really good.

We have sort of broken down here a bit, as we're not ready, and Irwin who fabulously led the very successful See Jane Run should not be commandeered to lead all of them, unless, of course, he'd like to!

So I guess we'd better be asking, WHO would like to lead the new mystery discussion? We HAVE chosen the JULY book: John Grisham's The Street Lawyer . We have no book for April 15 (is there one called Kill the Tax Man??) nor May the 15th, and everyone wanted a paperback for this one.

What does everybody think??? Any takers??

Ginny

Would someone tell me what "TBD" means on the reading selection list? It says a current bookclub selection runs from "April 15 thru TBD"... I think I can guess: "To Be Decided"... am I right? In other words, however long it takes! Great! I am waiting with bated breath to see what your next selection is going to be.

Jeryn: Right!! To Be Decided...(good title for a mystery, in fact).

Don't suppose anyone fancies a Robin Cook??

Ginny

While I haven't read the book, I am going to suggest we read "Sudden Prey" by John Sandford. My wife has the book on tape version of this book and the blurb about it sounds good. It says:

Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist John Camp has written seven best-selling novels under his popularpseudonym John Sandford. A masterful thriller filled with rich human drama and razor-sharp suspense, Sudden Prey is his most chilling in the Prey series.

When his bank-robbing wife is gunned down during a shoot-out with the cops, Dick LaChasie swears revenge on each officer involved in her death. Now Deputy Police Chief Lucas Davenport feeels powerless as LaChaise mounts a campaing of terror. The husband of one officer is brutally murdered. The wife of another executed at work. As the tension mounts, Davenport knows he must stop the madman before he turns on Davenport's loved ones.

Filled with heart-stopping action and unforgettable characters, Sudden Prey proves once again Sandford's ability to keep you precariously balanced on the edge of your seat.

"Creates a crackingly authentic atmosphere, a you-are-there sense of place, a sharp and sympathitic feeling for the deatils of the police at work." Los Angeles Times Book Review.

Comments from Amazon on the above book:

Thrillers Editor's Recommended Book, 11/01/96: Revenge is the engine which powers Sanford's seventh "Prey" thriller starring superslick Minnesota cop Lucas Davenport. When a dangerous female bank robber is killed in a shootout, her even more dangerous husband escapes from prison and begins a campaign of retribution against the families of Davenport and his team. As always with Sandford, excellent writing is the icing on an enjoyable cake. (Other Sandford "Prey" books: Eyes of Prey, Mind Prey, Night Prey, Rules of Prey, Silent Prey, Winter Prey.) --This text refers to the hardcover edition of this title.

For more information on this book, including price, check out this book on Barnes and Noble Sudden Prey

Larry

Larry: I've read the clickable, and I think that's an excellent suggestion! Have never heard of the author, so it will be a first for me, I say let's read it for our May 1 book, since it's already April 15, or will we need a month to get it?

For our June book I'd like to nominate another one I haven't read:

Is There a Dead Man in the House? by Elizabeth Daniels Squire In Paperback, 1998: $4.79

Paperback Published by Berkley Pub Group Publication date: January 1998

ISBN: 0425161420

This is the new one by the author of Who Killed What's Her Name? the book about the absent minded heroine.

It has very varied reviews, and might be just the thing for a Mystery Book Club to read!!

Synopsis: Peaches's father and his new wife, Azalea Marlowe, were in Tennessee to oversee the renovation of her family home. Peaches finds the excavation process fascinating--almost like watching the house's memory come to life. But some of the memories concerning the house are less than pleasant, as proven by the discovery of century-old buried bones. And Azalea's fall from a broken ladder hints that violence may visit this house again.

Customer Comments thewest@earthlink.net from San Francisco , 02/12/98, rating=4: A DULL BOOK IN SPITE OF A LIKEABLE LEAD CHARACTER KF: I like Peaches Dann, the amateur sleuth with the faulty memory. But this is not the best of the lot. Actually, it is fairly confusing - giving one the impression of hasty writing and inattention to plot and transition. Certainly not fascinating or intriguing. Actually, not even very interesting.

harrietklausner@paintedrock.com , 11/29/97, rating=10: Witty and a challenge-What more could you want? Peaches Dann has such a faulty memory that she constantly has to create ingenious ways of reminding herself of what is important to her. Her methods are so effective, Peaches decides to help other people suffering from the same problem. She writes a book and starts a tour to promote it. Unfortunately, the book tour is interrupted by her rapscallion of a father, who, though wheelchair bound, has eloped with some woman he has only known for a few weeks. Peaches feels guilty because she introduced her lonely father to the colorful Azalea Marlowe.

She only finds out that they were married when Peaches receives a call from a Tennessee hospital spokesperson who informs her that Azalea has fallen down a ladder at the family homestead she was renovating. Her dad wants Peaches, who has demonstrated some crimesolving ability in yhe past, to investigate the incident because he suspects it was not an accident. When Peaches arrives at Azalea's place, she learns that the family’s home has had several mysterious occurrences, including the unsolved disappearance of a groom and his future brother-in-law in 1849. That mystery reaches into the present day as someone is murdering people trying to learn what happened in the mid nineteenth century.

IS THERE A DEAD MAN IN THE HOUSE? Is the fifth book in the Peaches Dann series, starring a unique heroine whose faulty memory makes her crime solving abilities a delightful counterpoint. Elizabeth Daniel Squire creates a realistic murder mystery that is only solvable if the reader is a genius or an expert on amateur sleuths. Ms. Squire has created a charming series that successfully combines the best of a cozy with the elite of a literary mystery.

I say we read this one for June and the Street Lawyer for July and we'll be all set!

Ginny

Ginny and Larry,

Lets make it the May 15th inorder to get back on schedule.

Am I right in assuming that Larry will lead the discussion for May and Ginny will lead the discussion for June. Who is doing Street Lawyer in July?

I'd like to nominate Murder on a Bad Hair Day by Anne George for August. Since I have just finished it I will be able to lead a discussion on it. I want to choose one that I know I can read at this time as I am still having trouble reading.

So we have:

Sudden Prey by John Sandford For May 15
Is There a Dead Man in the House? by Elizabeth Daniels Squire for June 15
Street Lawyer by John Grisham
for July 15
Murder On A Bad Hair Day by Anne George for August 15

That is unless someone has an objection.

I'll post the review and synopsis of Murder On A Bad Hair Day in another message.

Joan

Here is the Synopsis and Review for Murder On A Bad Hair Day

Synopsis: The totally opposite, 60-something sisters Patricia Anne and Mary Alice are once again drawn into a murder. While attending a party for local folk artists, the gallery's owner dies of an apparent heart attack. But the girls soon learn that many of the artists had murderous designs on the victim.

Customer Comments from Amazon.com

jill@bznet.cop from Virginia , 12/25/97, rating=9: Get in Line to laugh, Then tell your friends When my online book pals told me I HAD to read this, I thought--oh no--another book to add to MT. TBR (To Be Read). BUT...word of mouth is RIGHT.

If you like FUN, snappy humor, and characters you wish you could hang out with, come meet MaryAlice and Patricia Anne. (MA and PA) This is a sister act you won't want to miss.

Oh, and yes Virginia, there is a mystery too. And unlike some other writers (who cheat), Anne George gives you a good logical ending that WON"T make you throw the book across the room at the end.

Joan, This line-up sounds good to me. I will lead the Sudden Prey discussion beginning May 15. It will be good to have some books identified in advance.

Larry

Larry,

That gives us several and we can be looking at others for the future while doing these.

Joan

Hey hey hey we're rolling now, I'll lead the Street Lawyer in July but will be in Italy in June! I can start out the month of June with some questions mailed to Joan or whoever will be around, and they can post them when they will: will lead it in absentia!

Nettie, Irwin, Everyone!! HELP here!! Lead us in the June book forward to victory, especially since it seems there will be a violent swing of opinion.

Way to go, Larry and Joan, now we're getting somewhere!

Ginny

Please pardon this brief interruption...

It's time to start thinking of the next Great Book Selection! You are welcome (and encouraged) to register your preferences! Lots of ways to get into the discussion. For starters, just click this nifty graphic the banner-makers have created...

Hello all. I do NOT like Sandford's books; having said that, I will refrain from further comment till after you all have read "Sudden Prey". I'll just lurk till you get done and be ready for the June selection. Sorry.

Hi, Jeryn, well, you can get ahead! Something I can't seem to do, and join us for the next two!~! Till then, try one of the other book clubs and see what you think: we're reading some great ones, and would love to see you there!

Ginny

Jeryn, I have now read about halfway thru the Sandford book and I expect I know why you don't care for his work. It is pretty gritty. As I said when I nominated it I had not read any of his work and was going on the blurb on the back of the books-on-tape my wife had from the library. I find it a page-turner but certainly understand if it is not enjoyed by all. As Ginny said, we will look forward to your joining us in the discussion for the following selection and perhaps in one or more of the other book clubs. That is one of the nice things about our book clubs as there are so many books being read at any time that a person can find one or more that they will enjoy.

Larry

Jeryn:

I feel the same way about this book as you do. I got it from the library and started to read it but decided to go to some other book. As Larry and Ginny have said, there are several other Book Clubs and discussions in this folder and I'm sure you'll find something to your liking.

I'm looking forward to getting to know you over the next little while. It's so good to see you posting in here.

Pat

From the comments, I'm glad I didn't get the book. Doesn't sound like my type. I'll try to catch the next one instead.

I guess I missed somehting--What is the upcoming book?

BTW, I loved SEE JANE RUN. I have read another of Fielding`s books.

May, the Mystery Book we are reading for the discussion to begin on May 14 is Sudden Prey by John Sandford. The violence is pretty graphic but it seems to be well written and is certainly holding my interest. As you can see a number of our folks are choosing to bypass this selection but we hope they will join in with us again on June 15th.

Larry

Thanks, Larry--I am going to try and get it at the library.

ditto for me, anyway, I have been so busy (working, yuck)...will try to join in for the Elizabeth Squire book. Ya'll have fun, now!

Well, Nettie, I've been wondering where you were. The Sudden Prey is like a roller coaster ride, scarey so far, but not put downable. So far, so good.

Ginny

Hi, everyone!!!

I have just gotten Sudden Prey from the library,and am absorbed. I even forgot to read the books for my "on the ground" book group this week.

This is truly very graphic and a bit frightening, but so far it is so well written that I find that I cannot stop reading it.

I am looking forward to our discussion, Larry!!!!!

Carole, I have missed you, and am so glad to see you back, the Pilcher book really looks good, too.

Ginny

I did get this book from the library. It is graphic, but definitely a page turner. I was surprised at the Wisconsin setting. It is fun to be reading and coming across familiar areas. I have not read far--about one fourth of the way--I need to find out how this all ends!!

Today begins the discussion of the new Mystery Book Club book, Sudden Prey. This was a very violent book but one I found very readable. In some instances I had some difficulty with the believability of the story and felt the bad characters were really too evil to be realistic as it was hard for me to accept that they would just hunt down and kill innocent people. I also had a problem with the fact that Butters and Martin would be willing to get involved in something where they basically knew they could not survive.

Be back later for some more comments. What did you all think of this book?

Larry

Oh, gosh, I think this was the most difficult book I've personally read in a long long time. For reasons best known to himself, our oldest son has, despite working 12 hour days as a professional engineer, taken an interest in law enforcement, and is about to complete the course! He would be on weekends, etc. The VERY thought that there ARE this kind of people out there made me put the book down many many times....just very uncomfortable with it.

Was also confused at the beginning, as the reader is hurled into so many groups at once, it's hard to keep them straight. However, it does get better, and, of course, is very violent, but a real race to see what happens at the finish.

Back later....

Ginny

I agree with you, Ginny about the characters! I almost had to keep a cast of characters by my side.

Larry, if you listen to the evening news, you realize that not everyone has a sense of decency or honor. I purposely live in an area that is not high crime, and I personally keep to areas that are judged "safe" and yet random violence is becoming more and more common and unavoidable. I can't really say that this is a sign of the times, though, as history is full of violence, and we are probably in the least violent of times. The 60s were pretty awful by comparison!!!

John Sanders has a whole slew of Lucius Davenport "Prey" books, and a new one just out. I have talked to people that are ardent fans, and discovered that this is his special style - lots of characters that intertwine, lots of violence, and strong characters and plot. This is an author I will have to take in small doses!!!!!!

So far, in answer to your first question, Larry, I will have to admit that I am having a bit of trouble with the level of violence! I don't know the characters well enough yet to tell you if they are real to me, though.

Carole.

Carol, I agree it was difficult to keep up with the characaters, particularly which was the sister, wife, and mother of LaChaise. I could certainly understand that the extreme violence protrayed would stop some folks from reading the book. However, once I got into the story it read very well and, while I hope not realistic, it all went together by the end of the book.

Larry

I have a Script, for a Book! Is there anyone wants to publish or Write my Great Story ? If so let me know!a Anxious to know Truly, Ruth Faulk

A very violet book. I suppose there are people in the world who have as little regard for human life as the characters in the book, but the very thought of it makes me shiver. As for the police overreacting, I don't think so, but the husbands reaction of wholesale mayhem was a little far fetched I thought. The bad cop didn't ring true. He was as cold blooded as the husband and friends, maybe even more so. To be in the police force and also be a killer strained reality. I haven't decided whether I would read any more of this author or not. I even have trouble with the word author. The profanity was repulsive to me. I feel if a story can't be told without every other word being a four letter word, then there must be something wrong with either the story or the author. When the husband invaded the operating room, the Doctors reaction was totally out of character. Just my opinion.

Doreen, Thanks for your comments.

I have to agree about the language, although don't suppose the language used is too unrealistic for the types of characters involved. Policemen also have a very colorful vocabulary.

I also felt the hospital scences were pretty unbelievable. I guess when you are writing fiction you can create the environment you want without regard to reality.

I still am having a problem with the concept that these friends of LaChaise would be willing to give up their lives and just start killing people. For the husband/brother to do something like that might make a little sense, but for the other two to do so is a far reach.

I didn't find the corrupt cop too unbelievable in that there are many instances of bad cops. Once he started down the road to cover his tracks and felt trapped he had to keep killing. However, it wasn't too convincing that all of the circumstances worked out just right so that he was in the place he needed to be at the right time.

Larry

I don`t think I will read any more books by this author. I guess the language used bothered me even more than the violence--I was too long a "policeman" for correct grammar and NO four letter words!!

One things I will say though--he does keep me reading--I haven`t finished and do always go back for more.

May, I appreciate your views about the language, but quite frankly it is difficult to find many books of this type that don't have some pretty rough language and violent scences. I started listening to this book on tape and found the language even more disturbing than reading it on the page as guess when reading I can just bypass that but in hearing it can't.

Doreen, so glad to see you here!! I was in a big mall yesterday and passed a B. Dalton where John Sandford's latest book is being heavily advertised, and even tho it was a little rough for my taste, I'm glad I did read it so when people ask or mention him, I can say I read it.

Now, I, too, thought the operating room scenes just ridiculous, don't think that would happen....but I must admit, don't know whether you get immured to it or what, but you really do want to get to the end, as you approach the last third of the book... The scenes where...Sandy kept trying to get away from them sometimes stretched credibility a bit, if she were able to do those things then, she could have done them all along, but I was always confused about why she was with them and helping them with their wounds in the first place??

It was probably more difficult to read than listen to, as it was very confusing for me for a while, but I'm finding next month's mystery confusing for another reason, so perhaps am just confused!

hahahahhah

Ginny

Gosh Ginny, I am really having trouble here. I looked in the library for Is There a Dead Man in the House, but they don't have it, and the only one they have by Anne George is Murder Makes Waves, which I got. I guess I will have to visit the book store to see if these are in paper back. I am on the list for Street Lawyer, but still #130 earlier this week, and the librarian laughed when I asked if I would get by July. She said more like November if I was lucky. Must say, I am enjoying Murder Makes Waves. Sort of light, but moves along well. Hope to start looking for these books next week. Wish me luck.

Doreen, good luck with the Is There A Dead Man in the House? I got it in paperback, but The Street Lawyer is not in paperback, have emailed you about that one.

Ginny

PS: Librarians should NOT laugh at people who want to read!!

HA!!

Ginny

Ginny, I had the same thoughts about the hospital and the operating room or suite scenes. However, a year ago I would have said kids randomaly killing other kids and teachers in schools just wouldn't likely happen either. So I suppose anything is possible. The nice thing about fiction is that it hasn't happened and we can let our minds build the scene and then put it away. If you have seen some of the action movies in the last few years they have lots of killing and destruction by gunfire and explosions. The hospitals I have been in lately could easily be taken over by terrorists or madmen as they appear to have little security. Frightening thought.

Doreen, I feel for you having to wait so long for the Street Lawyer. When I got my name on the list there were a couple of hundred before me but my library system had about 75 copies of the book so it didn't take too long to get access to it. Just hope I can remember the story when we start the discussion.

Ginny, as I mentioned above, I found Sudden Prey much easier to read than to listen to as I had started out with the tapes before I got the book. Guess different people react differently to things.

I thought Sandy was a very interesting character in the book. Remember that she was the sister of Candy LaChaise (the wife). Therefore she had a long-standing family connection and probably some sympathy for what had happened. She went to the trailer because she suspected that was where Dick LaChaise had gone and then just became a victim of the situation. Fear must cause people to behave irrationally sometimes and I think that was a great movitating factor for Sandy and her husband, who was killed by Andy Stadic without an apparent good reason.

This is really a quite involved story with a number of different thread running throughout the book. Think that contributed to some of the difficulty of reading the story.

Larry

Larry, you're right, of course. This is not a book for the speed reader, unless he or she takes notes, and I'm afraid that's how I read it (without notes)... Also the next book has lots of characters, too, and the author tries hard to keep them all straight. Will be interested in what everyone thinks of that one.

Both this author and the next are best sellers, and couldn't be more different from one another. I'm also going to be interested to see who our readers think penned the most realistic characters, I think my opinion will surprise, after what I've said here.

But the general frightening tone of this book kinda put me off a bit. Do you all remember that TV show a long time ago with Walter Winchell's voice over? Here would be a normal looking person doing some normal thing, and Winchell would be saying, "Larry Hanna didn't know it when he set out for the grocery but his life would change...."

Remember that one? I hated that show. Hate the very thought that somebody else is watching and knows what's going to happen to you and is telling everbody else BUT you, and it's all sealed, and you're done for.

That's the feeling I got when starting this book, and it was scarey, but I wouldn't trade the experience of reading it for anything, since I can now say I've read (however fast) this author.

As for the questions above, I actually thought the bad cop Stadic was a nice touch, and provided a truly frightening third element in the story at the end: yet anther threat from an unsuspected souce! I can SEE this one as a movie. I wonder if any of his have been picked up AS movies yet?

Ginny