Nonfiction ~ 6/04 Export

Personally, I think it is too early to judge any of our current presidents, what do you think?

There are so many books pro/con about Bush lately, has anyone read any of them at all?

My Library sends by email books in categories that a patron requests and in this month's email was this one that looks rather interesting, although I'll have to skim it before I read it.

Losing America By: Robert C. Byrd. Coming: July 2004. The Senator argues that now is the time to regain the Constitution, to return to the values and processes that made America great, and to speak the truth to an increasingly aggressive and imperial White House.

"Kirkus Reviews
"I do not want to remember my country as being on the side of evil": the distinguished gentleman from West Virginia-whose service and tenure in the Senate are legendary-pulls tight his toga and renders withering scorn unto Caesar. September 11 was not just about terrorist attacks on a sorely unprepared US, urges Senator Byrd. It was also "a day which would turn the life of our nation upside down and transform a lackluster, inarticulate, visionless President into a national and international leader, nearly unquestioned by the media or by members of either party." As the ashes settled on the Pentagon and the World Trade Center, this seemingly inept president, the soi-disant uniter, had forced legislation through that effectively gave him extra-constitutional powers: a line-item veto that hid billions of dollars from Congressional oversight; a shadow government that "has been described as an ‘indefinite precaution,' which can mean anything"; overstuffed discretionary funds for the likes of Rumsfeld and Cheney; spending streams directed to Bush buddies and the Halliburtons of the world. Couple this newfound financial independence of the executive branch with the administration's combative, thoroughly politicized stance-and no administration, writes Byrd, has been so driven by ideology-and you have the recipe for imperium.

Thoroughly schooled in the classics, Byrd needs no rhetorical stretches to make that analogy, but his condemnation of Dubya as a kind of bush-league Tiberius rises to Ciceronian heights all the same: "Bush's power has been wielded with arrogance, calculation, and disdain for dissenting views. . . . There is virtually no attempt to build consensus by the hard work of reaching across the aisle to find common ground." The self-proclaimed uniter is in fact a divider, and a corrupt one at that. "Many early symptoms that heralded the Roman decline may be seen in our own nation today," writes Byrd. Few students and practitioners of politics are better equipped to make such assessments. An outstanding broadside from a true patriot."

Of course, Byrd is a veteran Democratic leader and this is an election year.

Does it sound interesting to any of you?

Ella, I respect Senator Byrd, and enjoy hearing him speak on the Senate floor (C-Span on cable). He is an orator of the old school, speaking in a rather stately, deliberate way that is offputting to some, but I love it. He doesn't pull any punches and his stinging rebukes fall on some of his democratic fellows as well as republicans and the administration. His clarion calls for responsible, transparent government are noteworthy. This does not, however, keep Senator Bryd from applying for all the pork he can for his state. (^;^)

Howzat

I am struggling through his latest book; it did not pass the 50-page or 100-page test. I'm so glad I didn't buy it and appreciate reading a friend's copy. So far, it is far too detailed about unimportant people/matters. For someone who is purported to be a good writer, his book wanting. I will read it all as I expect any page to find a nugget that made it all worthwhile - LOL!

Maggie

You have to really be "into" the machinations of politics to WANT to read each page of Bill Clinton's book. He tells every little thing about how to get elected (and even how to lose an election), how you go about staying in office, and what you try to do while in office. I am only on page 305 and I LOVE the book. It's just too exhausting. I mean, the man is BUSY 24/7, and whatever else people might say about Clinton, they can't say he is/was lazy. So, I limit myself to just a few chapters several times a week.

Howzat

Entitled, "The Devil's Playground: A Century of Pleasure and Profit in Times' Square" by James Traub and I think it woud make a good discussion. I will see if I can find a review and put it up here.

From Publishers Weekly The first part of Traub's learned cultural history focuses on Times Square (originally Longacre Square before it was renamed in 1904) when it was the center of New York'sâ€"and the nation'sâ€"entertainment industry. Evoking the Runyonesque worlds of vaudeville, burlesque, speakeasies, gangsters and molls, the author provides lots of glamorous information about old Times Square and its most recognizable inventionâ€"oversized electronic signs or "spectaculars." Part two opens in the 1970s after Hollywood, suburbanization and television had marginalized live entertainment and its capital, turning Times Square into a haven for drug dealers and prostitutes, "a disease to be cured." This section, on the rebirth of Times Square, is particularly valuable for showing how private interests and the public sector joined forces to create a capital for corporatized fun. In part three, some readers may become impatient with Traub's tortured indecision about whether to enjoy this weird, overblown world, as his 11-year-old son does, or to decry it as a plot by global capitalism, as well as with his tendency to obsessively analyze the place (he visits Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum with a professor who's "a deconstructionist, or perhaps a postdeconstructionist"). Despite the sometimes overly intellectual approach, this book should appeal to those looking for some of the joy and excitement that even the new "sanitized" Times Square has to offer. Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

And, for those interested, here's a link to Amazon's book site with another review of the book and the author: Amazon's Reviews

I have been watchng the PBS program on Chinese naval exploration in the Ming Dynasty. It's fabulous. I think Gavin Menzies book, 1421:The Year China Discovered America would be a fascinating book for discussion. ...Babi

I saw that program. I've read the book. I agree it would make a good discussion, but in the winter when things are slow. It is a very long book. Menzies is a very good writer.

Howzat

In consideration of your good advice, HOWZAT, I'll postpone reading Menzies 'til next winter. (Not that we get snowed in or anything. This is south Texas, after all.) ...Babi

As I said before, I'll pass on the Clinton book, but the other two sound interesting. Here are the B&N links. The China title is availaable in paper back. Thank you for the reports.

Click Here for the B & N Catalog entry for "The Devils Playground" by James Traub. This is a short 336 page social history of New York Cities Time Square. Hey Ella Check this one out at your library. What do you think?

Click Here for tbe B & N page for "1421: The Year China Discovered America" by Gavub Menzies. This one is out in a paper back edition with a modest 645 pages. It might be a bit detailed for our usual history discussion but it is an intriguing subject.

Babi, where in "South Texas" are you? My aunt and cousin have lived in Edinburg since right after WW II.

Actually the paperback of "1421" is the better buy, for more complete information, that is. Menzies updated the paperback edition with additional material he gleaned from more detailed DNA testing, and also from things he's learned from the thousands of people who have e-mailed him with new (to him) info. Menzies has a website. I've forgotten the name, but Google his name and it should be right on the first page.

Isn't it awful that those silly Ming Dynasty Chinese burned all those records? They also threw away tons of stored pepper (that they had taken in trade), too. That was one of the many times, in her troubled history, that China closed down her borders and withdrew from any outside influence, which caused her to slowly lose her techniological edge and become a third world country. She is only now recovering.

Howzat

MARY Z, I have cousins living in the Elsa/Edcouch area, not far from Edinburg. I'm in a small town near Houston.

Thanks for the info about the updated paperback, HOWZAT. I'm hoping to find the book in my library when I'm ready to read it, but if not, I can find the paperback. ...Babi

As always, Babi, it's a small world. I grew up in Bellaire (Houston suburb), went to Lamar HS, and to Rice (didn't graduate from there, though). Our house, which has since been torn down, was near the intersection of Bellaire Blvd. and what is now the 610 Loop. We moved to TN in 1962, so it's been a long time. (Apologies for being off-topic)

I'll check both of those books out at the Library, Harold, and thanks to all of you for your recommendations. Concerning TIMES SQUARE in NY I recently completed reading THE TRUST (by two authors I cannot remember) - it was a very long book but it certainly was able to sustain your interest. The Ochs-Sulzberger Family still owns and controls the stock in the NYTIMES newspaper and the fourth generation of the family is now President, Big Chief, CEO (I'm not sure of his titles exactly) but the family is amazing.

I bring that up because they built their first new building for the newspaper in Times Square before it had that name and shortly thereafter the city renamed it - but not after the newspaper; however, they were quite pleased - of course!

You're correct about the Clinton book; it is tedious. I am reading it on and off throughout the weeks, not normally the manner in which I read. I am quite involved in other things, so reading his book as I do really works right now <g>. I agree that he is amazing insofar as his level of activity. I like Clinton, voted for him, and can forgive him his transgressions.

Maggie

You Are Invited! to join us September 7th to discuss this delightful little book only 200 pages long telling the story of cultural giants such as F. Scot Fitzgerald, Gertrude Steen, Ezra Pound, and of course Hemingway and others living in Paris during their formative years in the 1920’s

The book is readily available from booksellers in an inexpensive paperback edition or free from most public libraries. It is easy to read and understand, and many of you can read it in a few hours. You are invited to participate . Click Here to sign up for the discussion beginning Sep7th, the day after Labor day and finishing Sep 30th.

I hope to see you there

Theron and I listened to Clinton's book on CD. It is an abridged version and is not too long at all. We enjoyed it very much. We found it very interesting. I sometimes tend to doze off when we are listening to books on CD or tape while traveling in our motorhome but I did not fall asleep one time on the Clinton Book.

Clinton read the book himself. I like his voice as he reads. I enjoy politics and really enjoyed this book.

Joan Grimes

I would enjoy listening to him read his book also. I am well into the hard copy and enjoying it - it is meatier than the first 100 or so pages.

Maggie

Sometimes a book is so good that I have to come out of my lurking status. Shadow Divers - wow, what a trip!

Not fair, Harper. What's "Shadow Divers" about?

Howzat

Sorry. It's about a group of deep wreck divers who discover a wrecked WWII German submarine off the coast of New Jersey and their attempts to identify it.

I am a certified scuba diver, though not very experienced. I would never dive anywhere but in warm, clear, not very deep water, where the surroundings are fascinating and beautiful. These guys dive in darkness and cold and horrific danger. Often, while reading (I haven't finished the book), I find myself taking deep gulps of air. They have to be a different species.

And, when they are not diving looking for some identification, they are researching the German U boats and the lives of the men who lived on them. Makes for very interesting reading.

P.S. Book does get a little melodramatic for my taste, but good, nevertheless.

Well done. Thanks.

Howzat

Harper, I've got that, nothing but rave rave reviews, so you're enjoying it? It's next on my list, looks fascinating, good for YOU coming out of lurking!!

I can't wait to start it! What do you mean by melodramatic?

Finished the book - and it really was a good one although I had nightmares after that I think were related (sign of a good book, right?) Let's see, melodramatic - there was one part of the book where the author put himself into the thoughts of the divers and gave them emotions that I just didn't buy - if that makes sense. You'll see what I mean. I will be really interested to hear what you think of it. My criticism is not of the serious sort. I would certainly recommend the book to anyone. And the ending - what one of the divers did after the sub was identified - was so neat - so satisfying (maybe the author didn't create the emotions). If I were one to read meanings into books (I usually miss the whole meaning, just enjoy), then this book illuminates the whole futility, the whole waste, the whole idiocy of war. Enjoy - but don't read just before sleep.

Bridge to the Sun by Gwen Teresuki. Extremely gentle true story about an American girl and her Japanese husband. They were married in 1931, here in the states and then were sent back to Japan during WWII. Gives one a rather different look at that side of the war. Good book but not new! First published in 1957 and then reprinted in 1985.

Ann I remember hearing about Gwen Teresuki, if not during the war at least back to the early post war years. Did the Book tell much about her later post war life? Did she ever come back to the US?

Her husband obviously remained loyal to Japan in marked contrast to the great majority of Japanese Americans.

Surprisingly, her husband was against the war and tried to get it stopped before it started. Seeing his country go the wrong way made him extremely ill. But he and his cohorts who had not wanted a war never gave up making plans for Japan for after WWII. When he became ill, he talked Gwen into taking their daughter to the US after the war was over so the young girl could see the other side of her heritage. While they were here, getting her into school and acquainting herself with her grandparents, Teri died. Gwen stayed in the US and died in Johnson City,TN in the 80's, I believe, while the daughter,Mariko, went on to college, married a lawyer from Wyoming and raised a family of four sons. The daughter, Mariko, is quite visible still to this day as a political activist plus she was appointed Honorary Consul to the Japanese Embassy in Casper, Wyoming.

The other book that I mentioned, before I forget the title, is: The Sorrows of Empire by Chalmers Johnson. Here is a link to the book on Amazon.

The Sorrows of Empire

I am not promoting this book, just mentioning it.

And, after reading the reviews of his other book, someone might be interested in it. Titled "Blowback", it sounds more interesting than 'Empire'.

"Blowback by Chalmers Johnson>

I saw Chalmers Johnson speak on BookTV (C-span2) a while back and was very impressed. I have both the books you mention on my "to get" list.

Howzat

Long time no see!! Where have you been??

I just placed library reserves on both of these books as I am interested, like you, to see what Johnson has to say.

Mostly lurking.

Howzat

. . . is called "The Girl Watchers – Lessons from the Battlefield of Life" by Harry Stein - A group of WWII veterans who are now in their late 70s and 80, their various personalities and their opinions on how the world has changed since they were young. All of them were in the military and they talk about how being in the military changed their lives and their outlooks. What I found interesting is that Harry, the author, is in his 50s, and he compares his own outlook as a former "hippie" with the outlook that these men have. This group of men has formed a friendship bond despite their different politics and religion and personalities, and I enjoyed the way they kid around with each other.

I loved the book and I love them. These are the GIs that I met as a little "enemy" girl, decent, courageous, moral, playful, kind and generous, but fighting to the death for what they believed in. They were and are a wonderful generation of men.

Click Here for further information and reviews of the "Girl Watchers" from the publisher and critics from the B&N on-line catalog. Thank you Mountain Rose for telling us about it here.

"My Forbidden Face" by Latifa, a young girl in Afghanistan during the Taliban reign. It remined me a lot of "The Diary of Anne Franck" because this young lady also had to hide within the walls of her home, from the age of 16 to age 20. The fundamental terrorists such as the Taliban are nothing but neo-Nazis with religious overtones and cause the same sort of wreckage in people's lives. At least that's my opinion of them.

The book also gives a look at the various political factions in Afghanistan, the tribal wars, and how difficult it is for the people who are involved to know what's really going on, since they are often the last to get any news. Here is a review: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=175kbcn9zS&sourceid=M000000266&isbn=1401359256&itm=1

Today I've begun "The U.N. - In our Out?" which is written in debate style. Two knowledgeable men, Ernest van den Haag and John P. Conrad give opposing views. One makes a statement and the other rebuts it and then it is rebutted again, etc. It's the way I remember debate being conducted in school, with no personal attacks, but just sticking to the subject, although both are passionate and hard hitting about their particular viewpoints. Fascinating.

I'm learning a whole lot about the U.N. that I never knew and am curious what conclusion I will come to at the end. I tend to be in the corner of the conservative who believes the U.N. is useless, but I'm reading the opposing view with close attention to see if there is enough logic in it to either become more impartial or even to change my views. Both men seem very knowledgeable and both make some good points that we all need to think about since our lives will be affected by the outcome.

Apparently the two men involved here also debated the Death Penalty in another book, and I shall have to get my hands on that too because I love this style of back and forth by educated persons who seem to know whereof they speak, and stick to the subject without attacking each other. Both books, on the death penalty and the U.N. are listed at Barnes and Noble, but no review is given that I could find. I found it under author names, Ernest van den Haag and John P. Conrad, not under the title.

Just finished "In Retrospect, the lessons and tragedies of Vietnam" by Robert McNamara. I read it on the recommendation of a friend who is a Vietnam veteran and who dispises Mr McNamara. However, after a tedious litany of meetings, memos, and controversy he ends with a list of 11 recommendations to prevent future similar situations. To bad George W. Bush didn't read it before invading Iraq. Tom Stevens

. . . read the book, or if Bush's advisors didn't read the book? That's a pretty bold assumption, if you ask me. I think the Iraq situation is totally different from Vietnam and the world situation today is totally different. I think it's actually irresponsible to compare the two as is constantly being done. But the book sounds interesting enough for me to give it a try. I'm not sure I agree with McNamara about much of anything though.

I remember when McNamara was being interviewed around the country after his book came out. The tone of most interviews (and reviews of the book) seemed to put McNamara down for changing his mind about our involvement in Vietnam. I felt sorry for the guy. I mean, you're supposed to hold fast to every belief you've ever had--til death?

I imagine his book was more than a bit self serving, but you have to admire him for publicly admitting he made a mistake. I wish more "leaders" would do that.

I didn't read his book, nor will I read it now. But thanks for bringing it up. His book, and his treatment after his book was published begs the question, "What's wrong with public figures saying they were wrong?".

Howzat

Welcome to SeniorNet's Books, Tom!!

I wonder if you will have any interest in an upcoming book discussion concerning the Vietnam War and Vietnam Veterans and that is the Achilles in Vietnam discussion, (click here to enter) by Dr. Jonathan Shay , M.D., PhD., who will be joining us in that discussion? It begins November 1 and you and everyone here are invited?

Please come take a look and join in, if you like.

Welcome!

The lessons learned from our involvement in Vietnam are quite applicable today. It is admirable to be able to say "I was wrong". It isn't that with which most people find fault. It was the seemingly unlimited escalation based on what he now admits was a false assumption, i.e. if we allow South Vietnam to be taken by the communists, then every Country in SE Asia will be a target. And his admission that not enough effort was made to negotiate with Hanoi to bring the war to an end. Before it was all over we had sent over 500,000 troops, dropped tons of bombs, lost over 50,000 American lives. And what was accomplisheed? McNamara himself admits that had all our concerns been explored thoroughly as they should have been we would not have been nearly as aggressive there.

Ginny, I would be interested in that discussion, but I've already gotten into a biography of Ben Franklin which I find very interesting. Thanks anyway.

Why are we discussing politics in the Non Fiction suggestion folder??? There are other places to do this on SN.

If the book that you suggest does get chosen and discussed, then you can leave your opinions there.

Well, Ann, you know how it is. A cage gets rattled, some of the lions start roaring. Perfectly natural. ...Babi

Oh please , no politics.. We have lost several friends in the last year due to innocent beginnings of political feelings. Dont want to lose more.

. . . habits, which the writer of the post knows nothing about. A false assumption was made and boldly stated. I challenged that.

I see nothing wrong with that. I ignored the subsequent response which was NOT about a book, but a political statement, and so I assume the subject is dropped.

I see no problem with the mention of a non-fiction book concerning political issues. I would hope, however that any discussion be a simple brief description of the book, not a partisan debate of the political issues involved. Any extended discussion on the issues evaluated by the book would best be presented in one of the discussions in the Political Issues folder, perhaps the Contenders/Issues for the 2004 U.S. Presidency board. This new discussion has recently been set up for for the discussion of or the US political Campaign.

I'm currently reading "Benjamin Franklin". Although I've only read about 100 pages, it strikes me as exceptionally well written. Mr. Franklin was a multi-facted founding father. Walter Isaacson, the author is a master with words. I'm sorry each time that I have to set it aside temporarily. I would recommend this book to anyone interested in American history.

. . . American history, and I shall try and pick up that particular biography. I love to read about people who made positive contributions to other lives and their countries, even though they may have had all sorts of personality quirks. It only proves to me that a human being doesn't have to be perfect to make a contribution to life. Ben was a case in point.

Click Here for the achieved last year’s discussion of Benjamin Franklin. This discussion permitted two current biographies by two different authors; one was the Isaacson book and one by James Srodes. The title of the Srodes book was “ Benjamin Franklin- The Essential Founding Father.”

When Ella and I first discussed this project we were going to use the Srodes title but on July 1 2003 the Isaacson title was released by the publisher with a full court press of publicity- the talk shows the whole ball of wax, everything. I got Isaacson and it was a bit more detailed and too much longer, so we set the discussion up to be reader’s choice for either book’. I read both books and I am inclined to agree that the Isaacson title was a bit better principally because it was more complete.

The subject, Ben Franklin was truly the most interesting of the Founding Fathers. I think the Srodes title recognizing this point was most appropriate.

Word has been received that Ella’s husband Dick Gibbons died last night after a long illness. Ella’s daughter an active duty Army Lt. Col nurse is with her now. We all send Ella our sympathy and support at this sad time.

Ella, I'm sure you know, is our Co-DL here who has since 1997 served as leader of many non-fiction book discussions.

My deepest sympathies to Ella. I have read many of her posts, and find her to be a bright and lovely lady. I'm so sorry for her loss.

...Babi

Please convey our deepest sympathy to Ella. Such losses are so very hard. She's a great asset to SeniorNet and we all wish her well.

Why don't you make a suggestion on "Charlie Wilson's War" in the non-fiction discussion?? I looked it up and found it worth time to peruse. Looks like something that we might want to look into later in the year. Here's a link for you to put in the "Non-Fiction" discussion which is listed on the Books and Literature page.

Charlie Wilson's War

I read the inside this book blurbs and found them intriguing.

One of the most stimulating long-lasting non-fiction series of books re-opened this morning when Durant returned to us with his fourth volume, "The Age of Faith." In this eleven-volume series, he takes us step by step from primitive man on toward Civilization. You are urged to join us. Click onto THE STORY OF CIVILIZATION and be prepared for an ongoing love affair with this intriguing story of Mankind.

Robby

the eyes of a foreigner, a book by an Englisman named Jonathan Raban might be fun. It's "Hunting Mr. Heartbreak" (not sure why that title). Anyhow, often a foreigner sees things about our society that we miss simply because we are so used to them or take them so much for granted.

Mr. Raban begins with New York City and one of the more delightful phrases he has coined is "air people". These are the rich and famous of New York, the movers and shakers, who travel from building to building in taxis, are swept into lobbies and whizzed up by elevators to the penhouse homes, restaurants or private parties. From up in the air N.Y. looks fabulous, glittery and new and rich, and one doesn't see the grime or the crime or the street people or the ordinary working stiff on the ground. It's a phrase that could have all sorts of fun insinuations besides an elevator existence.

He then travels to the South and notes the "wildness" of nature compared to Europe. From there he travels to Seattle, Washington which is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, and then heads for South Florida where much of life is lived along the shoreline and on boats.

Now that I've read this book I will surely pick up the others he has written about other parts of this country. I think he even wrote one about Great Britain which would be interesting to read, since he's a journalist who looks at things with a different eye.

The following quote from the Publishers Information paragraph in the B&N catalog on this book tells how it got its name:

In 1782 an immigrant with the high-toned name J. Hector St. John de Crèvecoeur—"Heartbreak" in English—wrote a pioneering account of one European's transformation into an American. Some two hundred years later Jonathan Raban, winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award, arrived in Crèvecoeur's wake to see how America has paid off for succeeding generations of newcomers. The result is an exhilarating, often deliciously funny book that is at once a travelogue, a social history, and a love letter to the United States.

For more information on the book from the B&N catalog, - Click Here. The author has a long list of published books mostly on sailing.

Harold, I love seeing these obscure little mysteries, like the source of "Mr. Heartbreak", brought to light. This sounds like a good book and a good writer. I'm wondering if my small town library will have any of his work. They are very good, in any case, about obtaining anything one asks for. ...Babi

OK, that does make sense in the context given. I loved this book because it was a love letter to America, the opposite of the world image America currently has, although all my European visitors have always loved the country and its people once they have actually been here and experienced it.

Those of you who have not read Raban have a real treat in store. I've read (more than once) everything he's ever written. Enjoy.

Hozat

Is there a discussion of "The 9/11 Commission Report"? If not, that seems odd, because 9/11 was so traumatic for us all and because the book is selling well and has been described in reviews as a good read.

Rambler Senior's net has a continuing discussion board on Terriorism and National Security Issues. Click Here. This would seem an appropriate forum for any participant to bring up issues relative to reports of Government agencies and commissions relative to National Security, including the 9/11 Report. I suggest you bring it up there and see what you can get going on this timely issue.

I checked at my local library to see what they had by Jonathan Raaban, and found one title, Bad Land. It is about eastern Montana, and was a winner of the National Book Critics Circle Award for Nonfiction, as well the NY Times Editors' Choice Book of the Year, the Pacific Northwest Booksellers Award and Pen West Creative Nonfiction Award. Needless to say, I'm looking forward to getting into it.

Babi

Hey, did you notice, Ella is back? Click Here for Grant and Twain: The Story of a Friendship That Changed America by Mark Perry. This is an interesting short 300 page book telling of the friendship and collaboration of the retired General/ex-President and the popular author. The discussion is planned for November with of course a brief time-out for Thanksgiving. You are welcome to join

I was just notified that my copy of "Grant and Twain" is in at the library. So will pick it up today and peruse to see if I want to read and discuss it.

Tonight on the Discovery Channel there is the first of three segments of a program of Decisions of Presidents - I'm not putting this well, as I don't know the exact title of the series - but these were decisions that affected the whole world and were unpopular at the time but FDR, Lyndon Johnson and Ronald Reagan made them because as they said - "they were the right thing to do."

You might enjoy the series.

Incidentally, I'm in the middle of the SHADOW DIVERS by Kurson - fascinating book!

Ella -- I think the name of the program is DECISIONS THAT SHOOK THE WORLD. You were pretty close on the title....It sounds like an excellent series. It comes on at 7 p.m. here in Texas.

Shadow Riders sounds interesting.

Sun

Hello Sunknow! The program was excellent, brings back so many memories of the '60s and LBJ. He wanted so much to be remembered as the Civil Rights President - he deserved to be - but his decisions in Vietnam ruined his reputation.

Anyone read a biography of his life? Wonder how long he lived after he left the presidency? He deliberately shortened his life by returning to smoking after years of giving it up and he gained a lot of weight, let his hair grow long and looked terrible in a few views of him at his ranch near the end of his life.

The next in the series is on the 19th and the 26th.

Ella, Lyndon Johnson died Jan 8, Jan 22 1973 after suffering a heart attack at the LBJ ranch. I remember he was airlifted from the ranch to the Brooks Army Hospital at Fort Sam Houston in San Antonio. He was only 64 years old still some eight months shy of his 65th birthday.

Apparently his death came just 4-years and 2 days after he left office, and 2 days after the 2nd term Nixon inauguration. You are right about his unexplained decision to resume smoking and other unhealthy lifestyle attitudes. As President he was much more comfortable with emphasis on domestic issues but as so often happens Foreign problems intervened. Yet I think he is judged quite successful for the Civil Rights achievement despite the Viet Nam failures.

I voted for LBJ many times for the Senate and for Vice President and President. The only time I voted against him was in 1948 when he won his Senate seat for the first time. I had just turned 21 and was voting for the first time and cast my vote for Coke Stevenson an ex governor and political hack. In the Democratic Primary, then tantamount to election LBJ, won the nomination by some 26 disputed (probably fraudulent) votes. Those 26 votes in 1948 effectively made it possible for LBJ to become president some 16 years later

Click Here for a short Web biography.

Welcome Home, Harold.

I agree with your remarks about LBJ. I was a big fan. I believe he did what few men could have done for Civil Rights. It was one thing to talk about what could or should be done, but only LBJ had the determination to do it. He was one of those powerful men that you either accepted him for who he was, and for what he accomplished or you didn't. As for those 26 votes, they may well have been fraudulent, but that didn't keep me from voting for him later.

Ella - I think LBJ was bitterly disappointed in himself, and the dreadful situation he couldn't stop in Viet Nam and that contributed to those sad pictures we saw of him at the end of his life. I suspect History will remember him more kindly than he expected.

I never think of LBJ without thinking of ole Sam Rayburn. Now there was another real politician for you.

Sun

John just finished reading Robert Caro's book, Master of the Senate - the second of his to-be-trilogy about LBJ. John said he learned lots more about the Senate and its working that he had ever thought about. To say nothing about LBJ.

We grew up in Texas (Houston). My family was all from Bonham in NE Texas, which was Sam Rayburn's home town. Rayburn had one of his first jobs in my grandfather's law office, and family lore has it that Rayburn used to give my father dimes when he came into the office. Such tenuous connections. But these people are all buried in the same cemetary. 8^)

Anyhow, back to LBJ. He certainly was a strong leader, even with his questionable political beginnings. I remember after JFK was killed thinking that I was so relieved that LBJ was then in charge - that he was strong and powerful enough to handle it.

It seems to take leadership (a key word) from unexpected sources to accomplish big things: a Southerner pushing for civil rights; a Republican (Nixon) opening relations with China; etc.

I'm a native Texan, and one of the stories I heard about LBJ involved the questionable tactics that originally got him into office. He was quoted as having said, "First let's get elected; then we can clean the s--t from our shirttails." I'm not sure the quote is exact, but that was the essentials.

I was leery of the man in the beginning, but he gained my respect as time went by. I believe he reached his highest point, in my estimation, in his decision not to run for re-election.

...Babi

If you like biographies and it seems all of you do, join Harold and I on November lst in our discussion of GRANT AND TWAIN: The Story of a Friendship that Changed America by Mark Perry.

Click here for more information: Grant and Twain

It's available in the library, at least it is in mine - join in the fun of learning and discussing two of America's immortal men who became friends after the Civil War and influenced each other's life.

In speaking of controversy, which we were doing with LBJ, you remember I'm sure the banning of Twain's book - Huckleberry Finn - (which is still going on today) and Grant's presidency which had a few scandals although I believe he was not involved personally.

Love to have you!

You asked for a good autobiography so here it is. I am now very confident to recommend my first attempt in writing book. The reason of course is that I have the following list of reviews. The Italian American Press The Ohio Living & Travel Magazine The westfield Leader Newspaper The Universite de Rouen in france The Midwest Book Review The La Times "It may be said of many books that in the reading you become a better person.The fact, is though,that in this one,you are guaranteed to finish it as a different person. For this is no ordinary story.From the outset it is nothing less than extraordinary.Yet anyone who reads it will see himself as clearly as if he looked into the mirror.Read on,as if your own life depended on it.And,who knows,maybe it does." As I said I wrote my autobiography per suggestion of a good buddy of mine as he felt that my life story had to be put on paper and many needed to read it.I did my best and hopefully this group will like it as well. Thanks Franco

After reading Mr. Antonetti's post, I found a review of his book. I copied this excerpt to post here, as it definitely caught my interest.

"His memoir, I Wouldn`t Die, begins as a tale of a young boy in wartorn Italy. True to the title, young Franco had so many brushes with the grim reaper(including being dropped on his head and buried alive)that it borders on comical. However, while reading the witty and often poignant words of Antonetti, the reader realizes that little Franco has been blessed."

I'm sold. ... Babi

Here is a preview of a new biography book discussion I now plan for next spring. It is John James Audubon: The Making if An American by Richard Rhodes. I plan to propose this discussion for next spring hopefully with Ellla as co-DL. Click Here for a comprehensive review in the Oct 17th issue of the Denver Post.

Audubon is one of my favorite 19th century Americans. Though I am certainly no birder I do love to watch and photograph them in the winter at the feeders just outside my South Texas office windows. Previously I have read Audubon’s “1826 Journal” that is a fascinating day-by-day account of his trip to England and Scotland to arrange the publication of his “Birds of North America” subscription series. Also another great account of Audubon can be found in the 1951 University of Oklahoma publication, “Up the Missouri With Audubon, The Journal of Edward Harris.” This hard cover edition is now out of print but a 2003 paperback edition may still be available.

I will post more information here on this proposed discussion after the new year.

I have so much enjoyed reading McPhee. Anyone want to discuss? I also love Berndt Heinreich for new nature authors.

Which John McPhee book did you have in mind? I've read about half his books, so far. Tee hee, with my ability to recall, I can read McPhee's books several times and still have a good time. He is such an excellent writer. McPhee, recounting the geological history of Wyoming, tells of the Love family (central Wyoming ranchers) and how, in the late 1800s, they sent off back East for a school marm. One of the sons fell in love with her, but had to court her for nearly 10 years before she said yes. "Basin and Range" I think was the title of that book. Odd to find a beautiful love story in a book about geology, but McPhee made it come alive. One of the sons from that marriage became THE authority on Wyoming geology.

Howzat

Click Here for the John A. McPhee titles currently listed in the B&N catalog. I am unfamiliar with this series by this author. They seem to center on the nature, particularly on the geological nature of different areas of the country- Geology for the non-professional general reader.I am attracted enough to look for them the next time I am at B&N.

The "A" stands for Angus, but Mcphee never uses the middle name. He won the Pulitzer Prize for "Annals of the Former World" and has been at various times an associate editor at Time magazine, a staff writer at the New Yorker, and one other that I can't remember right now. All his 27 books have been published by Farrar, Straus, and Giroux, and he has written on a wide range of subjects besides geology. Oranges, truck farming, doctors in family practice, and the vanishing Merchant Marines, to name a few. His website is: http://www.johnmcphee.com/

Howzat

We had a great discussion a while back on the REAL story of the Bounty and Captain Bligh. The 1935 Clark Gable/Charles Laughton version of "The Mutiny on the Bounty" was on TCM last night. I watched some of it this afternoon. I had never watched the 1935 movie. It was so much more biased than even the "history" written by Nordhoff and Hall that I could only stand a few minutes of it. Thanks for the discussion, I learned a lot. I'll have to let Mary talk me into another discussion group sometime.

John Z

John is refering to the 2002 discussion of the Mutiny On The Bounty in which he was an active participant. Click Here for the Archive

The conclusion of that discussion was than Northrop and Hall and other fiction writers and movie makers have fictionalized the event and its individual participants to the extent of distorting the actual historical record. In particular the true historical character of the principal participants including Captain Bligh and Fletcher Christian has been distorted to suit a particular story lines until today, they are to most people quite different from their historical selves.

Harold,

apparently there is a new book out on the Mutiny of the Bounty. Forget the Authors name. The cover claims the book has new evidence, etc. Written by a woman to I am not familiar with.

Might buy it so see what she has that is new.

Tiger Tom

Hello Tiger, its good to see you here again. I suppose the new Mutiny On the Bounty book is the Caroline Alexander book that was published in Sept 2003, Click Here. Wow, that's over a year ago and this is the first I've heard of it. On the ;ink there is quite a a bit of information on it from the publishere and Publishers Clearing House reviews,

Ella You might want to look at this one at your library. Perhaps you can give your comments if you see it.

Harold,

Clicked on the Click here. Read all of
the reviews including the readers reviews.
One struck me as funny: The one is which the
reader wonders why Bligh went around the Cape
of Good Hope instead of thorugh the "Calm Waters
of the Stait of Magellen" First time I ever heard
of that strait being described as "Calm"

Tiger Tom

Tom, I noticed that comment on the alternate Strait of Magellan option and wondered about it too. I had never heard it mentioned before yet it seems Bligh should have considered it, and indeed perhaps he did. The only possible objection to it that I came up with on first thought was the war inclined natives who I have heard actually attacked ships in the Strait.

Also I might wonder if the Strait of Magellan was as calm as the comment pictured it? Surely it would be subject to the same general contra winds that Bligh encountered at the horn. These winds and particularly wind driven currents would seem to be be more difficult to navigate in the narrow Strait than in the more open waters of the Horn. Bligh was too good a navigator and too knowledgeable to pass on the opportunity for an easy passage

Harold,

The Strait in the best of weather is a beast.
It took a very good ship, captain and crew to
navigate it. It wasn't the size of the ship or
its crew (The Lady Washington made it through
in the Summer months with a crew of 12 and it was
a fairly small ship.) Bligh hit the strait in the
fall of the year when it was getting nasty. He
tried the strait but it was so stormy that he
feared for the crew. He knew that his ability
to Captain and Navigate was good enough but
he also knew he would lose crew due to falling
overboard or off one of the top Masts. Happened
frequently in good weather and very often in
bad. So, in the interest of Crew safetly he
turned around and took the Bounty around the
Cape. A far safer jouney.

Tiger Tom

John has gotten the Caroline Alexander book about the Bounty from the library and has set Grant's Memoirs aside for the moment to read more about Bligh. We'll keep you posted on his progress.

No, no, Mary, JOHN MUST NOT PUT ASIDE GRANT'S MEMOIRS FOR AT LEAST another two weeks until our discussion of our present - GRANT AND TWAIN - is completed.

We are waiting for comments from him - TELL HIM HOW DISAPPOINTED WE WILL BE!

He can read the Bounty book later.......

Ella, I hate being the middle man (person?) here. I'll ask him to write something about the Grant Memoirs this evening.

Yes Mary do ask John to tell us more about the Grant Memoirs but please post more here on Caroline Alexander’s Book on the Bounty. The Mutiny on the Bounty is high on my list of the top 10 most interesting historical subjects.

Thank you for your additional comment on navagating the strait. I think now I do remember Blighs considering that passage. It certainly follows that any sail boat would have difficulty in the narrow passage of the Strait in bad weather. The more open water of the horn would be safer. Of course as it happened neither passage worked and Bligh finally gave-up on the horn by turning around for a passage east around the Cape of Good Hope. This gave the crew a short respite at Capetown before resuming the voyage east to Tahiti

Harold,

Funny how the Mutiny, bligh and company keep popping up. Poor Bligh, he is painted either as a very evil man or a misunderstood man but not as a good man in a bad position.

I wouldn't mind discussing this new book if it contains new information and a new slant on the Mutiny.

I have read that Scholars and others are coming around to our conclusion that one of Bligh's problems was the lack of a contingent of Marines. I just wish that some of them would examine the theory that Bligh got into trouble because he was too kind rather than too cruel and harsh.

Tiger Tom

I remember reading a bit some years ago that pointed out Bligh's exceptional skills as a mariner. When you consider that he was placed on a small boat in the middle of the ocean, with a few loyal crew and little gear, yet managed to get them safely to a port...it says a lot for the man's ability. I wish I could tell you where I saw that, but it's much too long ago.

Babi

I'm sure John will be posting something here when he gets through with the book.

I just finished reading 'The Bounty' by Caroline Alexander. There wasn't much in this book that we didn't discuss in detail when the Bounty discussion group was going on. There was more detail about the family background of Fletcher Christian and the other young gentleman, but I mostly scanned through this the first time and did again in this book. The author came to the same conclusion that we did, that the job really reguired a larger ship, a larger crew, at least one more officer, and a detachment of Marines.

I agree that one of Bligh's problems was that he did not discipline his officers as he should have, but as short-handed as he was I am not sure that he had any real choice.

Connected only indirectly with our discussion, almost all of the ruling males on Pitcairn Island have just been convicted of repeated rape and abuse of the female population of the island. It had been going on for years if not generations. These are the descendants of the original mutineers. This would appear to be a continuation of a culture that goes back all the way to the original mutineers.

John Z

Hi I'm new to posting and messages love to read just finished Paul Revere E. Forbes picked it up at a library bag of books sale. It made the Revolution come alive puts you in Boston. Has anyone else read it I'd like to hear from you

WELCOME HEMBROUGH!

You are in the right place if you like nonfiction - We are so glad you found us here. We post messages about books we are reading and enjoying.

I particularly love history and so I will look up that book about Paul Revere that you mentioned. It sounds good.

Thanks for the suggestion.

I have reserved in the Library the new one by Joseph Ellis about George Washington and also the book ARC OF JUSTICE by Kevin Boyle. The book just won the National Book Award for best nonfiction of the year.

Click here for reviews of the book: ARC OF JUSTICE

Keep on posting, Hembrough, and join us in a discussion now and then.

What fun - I hadn't thought about the Esther Forbes book on Paul Revere (Paul Revere and the World He Lived In....was that it?) for ages - but I do remember just loving it! Another oldie I loved was about Washington D.C. Reveille (sp! argh!) in Washington - a female author. Another favorite - an author, female again, Mead(e)? - Eleanor of Aquitaine. Someone want to jog my memory on those? Oh and how about Catherine Bowen's Miracle in Philadelphia - All favorites.

ELLA, thanks for the link to "Arc of Justice". It does sound like a good read. I'll watch for it at my library. ...Babi

My purpose in this message is to make individuals aware how powerful Senior Net can be.I am quite fortunate that out of the box,I wrote my first book,and it turns out to be a great book.No ,not because I say so but because so many reviews have said so.However it does no one any good if it does not get national attention.Apparently my post on Senior Net got the attention of a writer on The LA Times and next thing you know,they ask for my book.They review it and a great story comes out that goes National. Now I have local Newspapers coming over and asking for interviews and creating additional stories.My point is that although writing a book is only the start of the project,and the hardest part is to get noticed,and once you are noticed and your product is good,at that time you have a shot at selling it. A great experience and thanks for the opportunity. Franco

Why, FRANCO, after reading your message I am definitely feeling empowered! Thank you for letting us know our favorite web site is once again showing its influence. ...Babi

Hembrough I read the Forbes "Johnny Tremain" a long time ago, like in '56 or so - and now I see that it is still being spoken of. I see that the UT library has it in their Special children and adolescent section - and that it is still available in Amazon. That settles it - I will order it and enjoy it yet again. I should read the Paul Revere book too. I read "Johnny " in jr hi I think, but it really made a big impression on me, and I ended up a history minor - should have majored in history in college - 'and that's the truth..!!" isak

I started out as a history major, ISAK, but the only career I knew of in that field was teaching, and I didn't think I would make a good teacher. Psychologically, I'm a person who doesn't like to keep covering the same ground. <bg>

Babi

The revolutionary war battles of Trenton and Princeton represent a critical turning point for the war of Independence. The British where in control of three colonies and close to Philadelphia. Washington’s Crossing of the Delaware river and victory in the battles of Trenton and Princeton is told and documented in meticulous detail. These critical engagements came at a time when Washingtons Army was melting away. Thomas Paine said:__”These are the times that try men’s souls: The summer solder and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and women.’ Thomas Paine ( Author of “Common Sense” ) It is interesting in the present war reporters were “ imbedded “ with our troops: Thomas Paine may rank as the first “ imbedded “ war reporter with American troops.

An interesting thought, POTSHERD. Now I'm wondering if those ancient historians like Herodotus or Thucydides traveled with the armies in the wars they recorded? Didn't some of the great generals like to keep a historian in their retinue, to record their glorious deeds?

Babi

Babi_ what an astute observation. Am presently reading “Achillies In Vietnam” By Jonathan Shay, M.D., Ph.D. Dr. Shay is a psychiatrist for a group of American combat veterans of the Vietnam war who have severe, chronic post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). He was struck by the similarity of the war experiences of Homers account of Achillies in the Illiad which resulted in study and comparisons resulting in his book. This book is scheduled for discussion with Dr. Shay starting February 5th. Dr. Shays book is available in paperback format ($14.00).

Potsherd and BaBi: Ginny has proposed Dr Shays book, “Achillies In Vietnam” for discussion in Feb 2005. Click Here. And Click Here for more information on Washington’s Crossing by David Hackett Fischer. This too would make a good discussion book.

That was an interesting thread between Potsherd and BaBi on Thomas Paine’s role as the first imbedded war correspondent. Thank you for that observation Potsherd. Also regarding post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), isn’t it interesting that History doesn’t report much pre-20th century occurrence of after battle stress in veteran soldiers. Yet it must certainly have been a common experience. In particular I have in mind the veterans of our bloodiest war, the Civil War. Surely after all those bloody charges of massed infantry formation the survivors must have experienced much after stress.

In the 1930’s as an 8 year old I remember hearing the word “Shell Shock” in connection with the condition of a neighbor, a WWI Veteran. Now after WW II, Viet Nam and more it has its own medical definition, post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) and recognition as an illness

A comparison Civil War PTSD vis-a-vis Veitnam is noted by “ChasingJane #47”in the “Achillies In Vietnam,” form Harold, while we probably will never know if there was PTSD if so the extent in the Continental Army. Some of my thougts are: The inital circumstances of the immigrants to America: leaving their traditional homes,maternal families and friends and a familiar culture to find/establish a better life in a foreign land Then, after a daunting sea voyage to America, a struggle, to establish a new life in a strange land. The trials and tribulations “ starting from scratch”, the establishment of a new life/ opportunity initiating feelings of pride and vested interests in the new land. The immigrant a member of the Militia or the Continental Army.would fight highly trained professional British and Hessian troops. .Having fled King George III to establish a new home, a new land and now the opportunity to establish a new country_ “if”, Great Britain, the most powerful nation in the world can be defeated. The hardships endured by the American Militias and the Continental Army is well documented: the immutable spirit, the hardships and the supreme sacrifices endured in the pursuit of freedom and the struggle too establish a new nation. The qustion of did Continental Army solders, Militia men suffer PTSD; probably some did: however the great victory defeating King George and Great Britain,initially,unbelievable by many, I believe would have had a great positive effect and in particular “pride of accomplishment” which may have resulted in less PTSD as the solders became immersed in rebuilding their homes and establishing a nation. Most of us purchase numbers of books each year. A source I came accross numbers of years ago which offers not only excellent service also excellent prices. Booksamillion.com who typically discounts from suggested list prices as well as for 10 bucks a year you can join their Millionaires Club which entitles you to an annual discount and best pricing. A couple of examples: A book cited_ Shook Over Hell_ List_Hardback_ $49,50_Club price $44.55-in paperback_$21.45_ Club price$19.31

Washington’s Crossing_ Retail $35.00_Our price_$24.50 and Club price $22.50. Sane book in paperback Retail_$16.95_ Our price $12.63_ Club price #11.37. If you order numbers of books each year you soon get your “Club” $ 10 bucks back quickly.

Thanks for that information, POTSHERD! Personally, I can't purchase any more books, my cupboards are full, so to speak, and am moving this spring so I must get them from the Library.

Here are 4 books which I have reserved at my Library and one of them, hopefully, will make a good discussion in January or February. Do any of them appeal to you? Or have you read any of them?

Titled Americans, Three American Sisters and the English Aristocratic World into Which they married by Elizabeth Kehoe

Mistress of the Elgin Marbles by Susan Nagel

Confederate in the Attic by Tony Horwitz

And also HIS EXCELLENCY, GEORGE WASHINGTON by Joseph Ellis

Any comments?

Click Here for information on the new Joseph Ellis Washington biography mentioned b y Ella above. Ellis is well known for his 1997 biography of Thomas Jefferson, “American Sphinx.” A senior’s Net discussion of this book (now in the archives) was in progress when I first found the site late in 1997. A more recent Ellis title was “Founding Brothers” released in 2000. This title was short biographical sketches of the principal founding fathers. It drew frequent mention in the John Adams discussion, the old History board, and other recent Books discussions.

The title of the current book, “His Excellency, George Washington” reminds me of John Adams from the McCullough Adams Biography proposing Washington’s title as President be, “His Majesty, the President of the United States.” Apparently that was a bit too much for republican America and they settled officially for “His Excellency.” I suppose this is still the official title, but the even more republican, “Mr President,” by common usage seems to have replaced it. (note: I used the small "r" in spelling republican).

Regarding the titled American title linked in Ella’s message it is the story of the three Jerome daughters all of whom married titled Englishmen. Jenny Jerome did the best marrying the 2nd son of the Duke of Marlborough becoming the mother of Winston Churchill. I remember when Winston Churchill came to the US just a few weeks after Pearl Harbor in an address before a joint session of the US Congress in an opening remark he speculated that had his father been American, instead of his mother, he might have got there (to Congress) on his own.

Both of these would make good Senior’s Net discussions.

Ella and Harold, the two books which sound like excellent reads to me are Confederates in the attic ( my son in law is a reenactor and civil war buff) and His Excellency George Washington. The book "Washington's Crossing" am presently reading presents well, with impressive documentation, George Washingtons leadership in the Revolutionary war. An excellent study in which the British occupation and battles in New Jersey receive considerable attention. The guerilla fighting by American militia which the British could not cope with we see today in our inability to extinguish same in Iraq.

I found this Washington history account to be interesting,although it does read like McCollough(?).

My reserved copy of HIS EXCELLENCY; George Washington by Ellis will soon be in and I'll take a good look at it and perhaps we can do a discussion????

Who else would be interested?

Traude, is not that a compliment to say that the book reads like McCullough?

Meanwhile I am more than halfway through the book TITLED AMERICANS: Three American Sisters who Entered the Aristocratic World of England by Elisabeth Kehoe and all of you, no doubt, know that one of them married Randolph Churchill and was the mother of Winston.

However, I did not know that Jennie had two other sisters who did the same much to their regret as the "titled" had no money and their lives were spent searching for a few pounds here and there and borrowing to keep up with the social life of England.

Randolph got syphillis early on and his disease progressed accordingly; he died in his 40's - I think 44 and one could not believe from reading this book how Winston ever became the great personality and leader of England that we all remember so well!

Ella, that phrase in your post really has me wondering what to read into it. What could be sadder than a constant 'searching for a few pounds', to keep up with the other dukes and duchesses?! The rest of us feel the pressures of the rat race. Just imagine doing it as a wannabe aristocrat.

There's something about royalty that's just indescribable. Take it from me. Once, at the impressionable age of ten, I held a Queen's eye for about a minute, while seeming like forever. She and her husband, King George VI, were visiting their dominion of Canada in 1939. As their open Packard limousine, which first caught my eye, approached, I relized that the she was looking straight at me with a beautiful smile, and, as the car slowly drove by, her head slowly turned, still smiling at me. Everybody should be so lucky. Sure, even those with a preference for the republican way of life.

It ain't easy to be a royal. Maintaining a majestic position through thick and thin, hardest of all. Let me just remind you of the difficulty Buckingham Palace had in acknowledging the death of Princess Diana in those first sad days, in keeping with public expectations. Not a word from the royal family. No flag at half mast over the Palace. The public, with the help of the media, expressed their disappointment. The Queen seemed unfeeling. She, however, had a host of regal constraints governing her behavior. After all one has to abide by hoary old traditions. The occasion demanded more of her, and she relented.

So, I wasn't completely surprised to read the following by Robert Lacey the royal biographer, re the Queen's concession to public demand:

'If you have got to move on, (beyond 'tradition'), you have got to move on. That is the bottom-motto of the House of Windsor. They are a tough bunch. Their anachroonistic persistence and ability to flourish in the modern world derive from an unsentimental ability to sense when the dynasty existence is threatened, and to adapt, backtracking and reinventing themselves if necessary. They have an uncanny nose for survival - and this in turn stems from a still more profound understanding that their power and significance derive ulimately, and entirely, from the people. Being royal has no meaning or function without that. If the people do not want a stoic, stiff-upper lip figurehead, then let the lip wobble a little.'

And so even a ten-year old sitting on the curb on the Canadian prairies enjoys a place in the grand scheme of things. For me the smile was just the thing to get my devotion...

She made my day. I hope I made hers.

I could look forward to another 'President' book discussion. Or any other interesting political figure in US history. For example, Thaddeus Stevens. I have an unread 1934, Woodley bio of him. Was he 'intersting'?

How about something by Winston Churchill. Something like his My Early Life. One keeps hearing that it's very readable.

Has anyone read Winston Churchill’s’A History of the English- Speaking Peoples ?

The “History” is told in four parts: Book 1_The Birth of Britain, Book 2_The New World, Book 3_The Age of Revolution, Book 4_The Great Democracies,

His command and elegant use of the English language is to my mind simply incomparable: elegant, certainly.

,

I loved the Winston Church History of English Speaking People. I believe without checking this is iffy.. That he said of Richard the Lionhearted.. the saddest final line in literature.."They flaued the archer" In response to Richards death.

Back in Nov 2002 we had a discussion thread on “Man of the 20th century going briefly on the old History Forum. The following is a comment I made on Churchill who was my choice.

Regarding Winston Churchill he has always been one of my heroes too from the early days of WW II when he became Prime Minister and I listened to his speeches in 1940 from the short-wave on the BBC. On May 10, 1940 when Hitler began the campaign against the Low Countries and France and the Chamberlain government resigned the Parliament considered two men as replacements, Churchill and Halifax. Churchill as a backbencher in Parliament had long been outspoken against Hitler and the Nazi regime. Halifax as a former Foreign minister while not pro Nazi would have been much more prone to compromise, ie, conclude a negotiated peace with Hitler. By choosing Churchill the prosecution of the war to a military conclusion to the end (one way or the other) was assured.

Many would choose Winston Churchill as the Man of the 20th century. I for one am inclined to agree. Who else would it be? Maybe Roosevelt, but certainly not Ronald Regan or Bill Clinton, and George W. must be judged against the many yet to come in the 21st century. Who would agree or disagree?

There were several other nominations including FDR and Gandi. We did not pursue the issue to a decision but there was others supporting Churchill. Click Here for Messages 793 – about 801.

From Churchill's My Early Life.

'In my last term at Sandhurst my indignation was excited by the Purity Campaign of Mrs Ormiston Chant. This lady was a member of the London County Council and in the summer of 1894 she started an active movement to purge our music halls (of alcoholic liqours).'

'In this cause I was keenly anxious to strike a blow.' and he sought out the League of Citizens (founded) to resist and counter the intolerance of Mrs Chant.'

Churchill prepared a speech, about which he said:

It was a serious constitutional argument upon the inherent rights of British subjects; upon the dangers of State interference with the social habits of law-abiding persons; and upon the many evil consequences which inevitably follow upon repression not supported by healthy public opinion. It did not overstate the case, nor was it blind to facts. It sought to persuade by moderation and good humour, and to convince by logic tempered with common sense. There was even in its closing phrases an appeal for a patient mood towards our misguided opponents. Was there not always more error than malice in human affairs? This task (writing the speech) completed I eagerly awaited...the momentous occasion.'

He did not deliver the speech on that occasion, since there were only two who came to the meeting, including himself. But so convinced was he of the merits of his prepared speech, that two pages along he adds:

'Had I only possessed a newspaper of my own, I would have had my speech reported verbatim on its front page, punctuated by the loud cheers of the Commission, heralded by arresting headlines and soberly sustained by the weight of successive leading articles. Then indeed the Entertainments Protection League might have made real progress. It might in those early ninetees, when so many things were in the making, have marshalled a public opinion so vigilant throughout the English-speaking world, and pronounce a warning so impressive, that the mighty United States themselves might have been saved from Prohibition!'

He worked long and hard on his communication skills obviously.

Thanks for that post citing the anti-temperance speech (that never was) by Churchill. When I get hungry to read paragraphs full of perfect sentences, one of the places I go to is Churchill's writings. You can always count on him to be clearly eloquent in the presentation of his case, for or against. You know ahead of time you won't have to suffer any high flown blathering.

Howzat

Churchill is also famed for a quick wit and sharp ripostes. I, who can never remember jokes, have no trouble remembering examples of this.

I guess one of the most famous was the incident where an irritated lady said: "If you were my husband I'd poison you!" To which he replied, "Madam, if I were your husband, I'd drink it!"

Babi

I have a bad memory for everything, so when poeple remind me of that remark by Churchill, I chuckle anew. My memory (or rather lack of same) makes re-reading books I've enjoyed a real pleasure. Reading something the second or third time pleases me just as much as the first.

Howzat

When someone proofread an item by Churchill stating that a sentence should not end with a preposition, he wrote back "This is the ridiculousness up with which I shall not put."

Robby

Hahahahaaa

Churchill's cousin, Oswald, a writer, told him he wrote his articles in the mornings because in the afternoons he liked to go and look after his fields. Churchill replied it was the other way with him, I lay bricks all day and write in the evenings. Oswald answered that he couldn't write when he was tired, Churchill said "Oh, I can't write when I'm sober!"

During the Irish Civil War in 1922 the Four Courts building in Dubin which housed courts and public records was destroyed. When discussing this matter with friends, Churchill commented that "A state without archives is better than archives without a state."

For more Churchill quotes Click Here. Some of my favorites are:

“Broadly speaking, the short words are the best, and the old words best of all.”

“He has all the virtues I dislike and none of the vices I admire.”

“History will be kind to me for I intend to write it.”

“I have always felt that a politician is to be judged by the animosities he excites among his opponents.”

“It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried.”

And perhaps the best and most timely of them all: “Never, never, never believe any war will be smooth and easy, or that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can measure the tides and hurricanes he will encounter. The statesman who yields to war fever must realize that once the signal is given, he is no longer the master of policy but the slave of unforeseeable and uncontrollable events.”

Good ones, Harold!

I'm listening to the audio of Hilary Clinton's book, Living History, and finding it to be very interesting. I had no idea she was so involved in such a variety of issues while in Arkansas when Bill was Attorney General and later Governor.

On C-Span this weekend were four authors discussing presidents and their enemies, and one of them made the comment that this country will not get a good candidate, or a good president, until a woman is elected and he has one in mind although he wouldn't mention the name!

John Dean, and you all remember him I'm sure, was one of the panel members and has written a book stating the case for impeachment of President G.W.Bush, claiming he took this country to war without legal authority or good cause. I have reserved the book at the library.

Gandhi looms as large in Indian history as Churchill in his own, wouldn't you think?

Ella, are you referring to John Dean's Worse Than Watergate? I just borrowed that at the library myself, but haven't started reading it yet. One could expect Dean to know what he's talking about. He cerainly has his own place in history.

Hi Jonathan! Yes, indeed, I was referring to John Dean's book and I just picked it up at my Library, it looks very good. He was a sharp lawyer - I believe he was Nixon's counsel in the White House and do you know he is still just as slender and trim as when we last saw him on TV, only with white hair.

What was Churchill's reaction to Gandhi? I was in that book discussion of Gandhi's life but don't remember that - from what you are saying Churchill didn't recognize his potential as a leader?

Ella, I think one would have to assume that Churchill, being politically astute, was well aware of how badly Gandhi was hurting British prospects in India. It was the 'half-naked fakir' description of Gandhi that Churchill used when Gandhi came calling at the Viceroy's Palace in that peasant costume. Is it coming back? When Gandhi came to England dressed only in that what do you call it?...a dhoti? Churchill refused to have him over for tea. That was in 1931, I believe. Who made the bigger mark on his world, do you think?

What an interesting question, Jonathan - a phrase politicians love to use.

India, in fact the whole British Empire, was crumbling after WWII and, although Gandhi had a hand in it prematurely, the country would have gained independence without his influence. Personally, I remember saying that I thought it was outrageous behavior on Gandhi's part to appear in England wearing that "diaper." He wanted to be noticed and he was, what ego!

Everyone will take exception to that, I know.

So many "ifs" associated with Churchill. Would England have caved in during WWII without him? What amount of persuasion or influence did he have on FDR enabling America to promote the lend-lease program? If Japan had not attacked Pearl Harbor, would the American public have supported our involvement in Europe during the War?

I have read a few chapters in John Dean's book and think the guy is still living in the Nixonian age. Although there are many questions about this administration that will take years to sort out, Dean's book has provoked no comment from the press that I know of and was sitting there on the shelves of the library, very accessible, even though it was just written this year.

Any comments, Jonathan?

Churchill and Gandhi were both pretty tough as leaders, weren't they? The one with the fat cigar sticking out of his face, and the other in his 'diaper'. I remember how I laughed at your description in the Freedom at Midnight discussion. But don't these two giants, taken together, make a really great study in political charisma. Each picked a recognition symbol with meaning. Pass the cigars, please...

Their legacy is undeniable, whatever it is. I suppose their historical stature will increase with time. Seems ironical, then, to think, that when freedom finally came for India, Gandhi seemed a political hindrance to those who were trying to get something done. And when peace came for Britain, the voters wasted no time voting Churchill out of office.

I thought I posted here yesterday, but I don't find the post. Maybe Jonathan asked the same question somewhere else and I responded there. Then again, maybe I'm losing my mind! :<( ..Babi

Jonathan, I remember hearing the news of Churchill’s defeat in the election in July1945 on a Navy transport ship heading for the Philippines. I could not believe the results after what he had done in delivering the nation from defeat to victory. Of course he was back in power again in 1951 just 6 years later so I suppose he did possess a bit charisma.

Churchill’s return to #10 Downing Street in late October 1951 came just a few weeks before his 67th birthday. That would be considered pretty old for such an office today even though just 24 years ago Ronald Regan was 70 before he was inaugurated as U.S, President.

I suppose Churchill in 1945 was far more popular in the United States than he was in the UK. In 1989-90 this was also true of Gorvachev. In the US he was the great leader who had led the world to peace after nearly 50 years of cold war. In his own country he was more affected by local politics.

Babi I saw your message last evening as the last message at the time. At that point the board had not yet been moved to the new server. I wonder if the move resulted in the loss. I will make some inquiries to see if perhaps it can be recovered.

Don't worry about it,Harold, It was nothing important.

On Churchill's defeat in the '45 election, it seemed to me that was a sort of nation-wide emotional reaction to the years of privation, which were unavoidably associated in the public mind with Churchill and the war. I think people wanted to put all of it behind them as completely as they could, and try to believe that the hardships were at an end. Of course, with the country left in such bad shape, the hardships were definitely not over, and within a few years they brought Churchill back.

Babi

Whets my appetite for more Churchilliana.

Gandhi's demonstration of the adage "striking and turning cheeks" was certainly well learned by people beyond Britain:Martin Luther King learned well in his application of Gandhi's non-violent principles. Gandhi, demonstrated that there is a power greater than the gun.

Well said, Jonathan!

IMO, it is as important to know and understand the consequences of what it is that you will die for as it is to know and understand the consequences of what it is that you will live for.

Howzat

If we could ask the dead, we might find they don't consider a gun the greatest power either. By then, they certainly should have a larger overview of both life and death.

:-? ..Babi .

I think it's odd, not to mention sad, that we have evolved so little in this regard, in spite of our supposedly "superior" minds. The "kill" method of achieving cooperation and/or acquiring what we want has been around since prehistoric times!

It didn't, and doesn't seem right to reply the way I did to Potsherd's post (149); because the implications for the living are too dismal to contemplate. Gandhi did demonstrate the power of non-violent principles in action. He got worthwhile results up to a point, but in the end nobody was listening. By the strangest coincidence, I've just come up from watching EARTH, a movie based on the book, CRACKING INDIA, by Bapsi Sidhwa, a historical novel about the partitioning of India in 1947. I remember looking for the book during the FREEDOM AT MIDNIGHT discussion. What an appalling story of human conflict.

The point I was trying to make was M.L.Kings efforts to obtain human rights for black people did embrace Gandhi's non-violent princple. Hypotheticaly, suppose M.L.Kings campaign did not assume a non-violet overture instead was a no-holds barred/ anything goes to win equal rights. You would have seen the Black's latent hate erupt into a guerilla situation as seen today in Iraq: not possible? Some of you may recall the Black comminutes reaction to the assianation of M.L.King which I believe demonstrates the capability and desire by many for viloence:pent up hate released.

Jonathon notes the Indian partitioning (#155) which was a confrontation of Muslims and Hindu religions. Gandhi tried despertly to avert this comflict, non-violently. When Gandhi's peace efforts failed in several weeks a half million Muslims and Hindus died. The partition of 1947 represented the greatest migration of human beings in worlds history. A Musilm assassinated Gandhi in 1948 ensuring the hatred of these two religious peoples. Hatred appears to represent a dominate emotion. It appears today that Gandhi's concept of non-violence is obsolete,passe.

Potsherd, I agree with everything you say, eccept for who it was that caused Gandhi's death. He was assassinated by one of his own, an orthodox Hindu, who felt Gandhi was too liberal, and too generous to the Muslims. Gandhi was willing to let a muslim, Jinnah, to be the first president of an independent India.

No doubt racial animosities and prejudices still exist, but thanks to MLK's peaceful efforts, many of his fellow citizens must remain hopeful of a common vision of equal rights and social recognition for everyone.

Yes, Jonathan, Gandhi was assassinated by a Hindu fanatic. Sorry for the error.

I am currently reading, among other things, "Meeting the Shadow," by Connie Zweig. This is a collection of many treatises based on Carl Jung's theories about the "shadow" parts of our unconscious.

"Zweig, former executive editor of Brain/Mind Bulletin, and Abrams, a Jungian therapist, offer a provocative collection of more than 60 brief pieces (most of them extracts from longer works) exploring the 'shadow,' part of the unconscious self." Publisher's Weekly

This particular book is in ordinary language, not dry or technical, and is easy to read. Unlike Freud, who was obsessed by the idea that all of our problems are rooted in sexuality, Jung believed (and so do these writers) that they are based in our unconscious "dark side" and a need for power and control.

It seems to fit in here right now, too, because of the violent vs. non-violent thoughts. I'm really getting a lot of insight from the book, thoroughly enjoying it, and plan to read another of hers called "Romancing the Shadow."

Zinnia, I've never read Jung. Can I understand Zweig? This sounds really interesting.

Yes... I'm sure you can! Try this link and you'll get an idea.

http://www.scottlondon.com/insight/scripts/zweig.html

I am REALLY enjoying the one I'm reading and plan to go on to the "Romancing" one, which is about working through issues with the shadow self.

I tried to read Jung, but it was one of those really fine print things with really involved language, and I tired of it quickly.

Zinnia, Wow! You've got me hooked. Who hasn't wrestled with that wretched shadow? It may be that the entire world population is in Shadowland now.

I'll look for that book too Zinnia - This compulsive need for power and control seems so much a part of human nature that I sometimes wonder if those of us who try to deny it aren't something of an anomolie.

Jonathen I picked up the CD "Earth" at the library just yesterday - I love all the cross-referencing (what else to call it?) that occurs on Sr.Net. Now I am even more eager to see it.

This is an interesting thread concerning the two prominent non-violent revolutions of the 20th century. First was Gandhi’s non-violent revolution resulting finally in in 1946 in the Independence for the India sub-continent; then there came the great social changes in the U.S. effected by the similar MLK effort in the 1960’s. Both of these non-violent programs were certainly THE primary force in the eventual achievement of their great goals.

Yet in both instances there was the fortuitous coming of other outside forces that peacefully triggered the final achievement of their respective revolutions. In the case of Gandhi and the Indian sub-continent it was Britain’s terribly deteriorated condition at the end of WW II. The economic plight of Britain was such that it was no longer profitable to ignore (or suppress) the native demand for freedom. The independence of India and Pakistan came easily for Britain as the only logical answer.

I see a similar crossroads in the U.S. in the 1960’s. Here came the sudden realization that there was a choice between the social disruption and particularly the economic stagnation and even violence of the old order, or participation in a new order. Again the change from the old to the new societies came much easier than many had thought possible.

I must apologize for my lack of recent participation in this board. This is occasioned by my making major life-style changes involving my moving to a San Antonio Apartment. I am now involved in packing and making arrangements that will cumulate on Jan 17th when I get the keys and Jan 18th when furniture will be moved. I will keep this rural Guadalupe residence as a second home for frequent escape from the city for the next year or so. I will have cataract surgery on Feb9th and again on March 9th.

One big plus resulting from this move will come from the apparent availability of a fast cable Internet connection at the San Antonio apartment. I will try to remain active here generally on a daily basis so long as discussion threads are active.

I hope all goes well with your cataract surgery. Put your can opener in your pocket so you'll know right where it is.

Howzat

HOWZAT, that sounds like the voice of experience speaking! LOL

Babi

Good luck with your move and your cataract surgery, Harold. I hope both will open great new horizons in your life. I've had the surgeries - and they went very well. We haven't had to down-size to an apartment yet - maybe in another few years. And I know you WILL love your high-speed connection.

Good luck. I had two cataract surgeries. ONe a complete success and the other a partial failure, but that is not the usual case. We moved into a townhouse this last year and love it.

I have cataract surgery looming somewhere on the horizon. My FIL had to wear coke bottle glasses after his cataract surgery back in the early 50's. Has it gotten better (I hope)? Good luck Harold. You will love the high speed internet access.

Jackie, I think almost all cataract operations nowadays include a lens implant - so no heavy thick glasses any more. In fact, I know a number of people who have not had to wear glasses after cataract surgery. That was not true for me, but my vision was better.

Jackie, I, too, have cataract surgery looming in the future and I know it's a fairly easy operation these days. Aren't we lucky to be alive in the age of technology - why, they can replace my swollen and painful knees one of these days and I would be dead by now if a cardiologist had not inserted a pacemaker to still my beating heart.

I think we are happy about it? My 80-year old sister said to me the other day that we are not living, we are surviving. Interesting, I'm not quite she was serious.

Meanwhile I am still listening to LIVING HISTORY by Hilary Rodham Clinton - it goes on forever and I'm just halfway through the discs but what an interesting life she has had.

And enjoying a biography of David Niven who is not always the charming man in real life that he was on the screen and am also reading CONFEDERATES IN THE ATTIC by Tony Horowitz which is just delightful.

Harold, good luck on moving, I will be doing the same soon from a house I've lived in for 43 years into a new condo.

Jackie, The new cataract procedures I had , the lense was inserted, no stiyches and the lense correct my near-sightedness. I wear glasses for reading now, but no glasses for driving.

I was so nearsighted before, my glasses were 1/4" thick on the edges.

Come join in a new book discussion we are proposing, just click here and read: Confederates in the Attic by Tony Horwitz

It's delightful, humorous, sobering, informative and fun! Oh, do come post a message, just read all the reviews of the book - all five-star reviews from readers: Confederates in the Attic

Where did all the people go that were talking in here? I was enjoying the posts! Come back, come back!

What are you reading? I'm soon going to need a new nonfiction book - a good biography? Any suggestions?

Kindly look at "I Wouldn`t Die." You can view as much as you like FREE at Amazon. Great reviews.

I'll do that, franco! Thanks!

I have just started a book called "We are your sisters" Black Women in the nineteenth century. The author is Dorothy Sterling. She read more than a thousand interviews with black women and this book tells the story of some of them. I think it would make a fabulous discussion. As I have grandchildren who are of NZ Maori descent I am very interested in non European cultures. My SIL is beginning a journey of discovery to find his iwi ( tribe). I intend to go along with him for the ride.

Regarding Bills Book I intend to read it. There is a long list of people waiting at our library to read it. Bill Clinton is held in great affection here. Those who cast stones at him should read the story of King David in the Old Testament. God forgave David for not only infidelity but the fact that he orchestrated a murder. David was still a great leader.

During this very wet summer I have done lots of recreational reading but not much that is noteworthy to report in books, Have been reading a lot of biographies. I enjoy reading biographies and autobiographies of ordinary people, many of whom have lead extraordinary lives.

Carolyn

Thank you Carolyn for your report on the Dorothy Sterling book that you are reading. Others interested may Click Here for “We Are Your Sisters- Black Women in the 19th Century” by Dorothy Sterling with information from the B&N catalog. I note that this author also has at least three other titles in the B&N catalog on Black Women, Click Here. Also a Dorothy Sterling autobiography, Close To My Heart” is scheduled to be released in Feb 2005, Click Here

A new Curious Minds discussion begins Sunday, January Sixteenth. A timely topic has been chosen for your thoughts and opinions. I'm sure you will enjoy…
.
Presidential Inauguration Days

Bill H

A new Curious Minds discussion begins Sunday, January Sixteenth. A timely topic has been chosen for your thoughts and opinions. I'm sure you will enjoy…
.
Presidential Inauguration Days

Bill H

I'm interested in "Confederates in the Attic", but my library does not have it. Maybe I can find it on inter-library loan. The more I hear about it, the more I want to read it.

Babi

BABI, I just looked and my Library has a number of copies of the book, plus the audio and even a large print edition. I hope you can get a copy and join us - it's a book that is contradictory in various places, as is the South, funny, sobering, maddening and entertaining.

You can get the book online at any number of used book sites for about $10 - I was misspelling the author's name - putting an "o" behind the "r" until I noticed my error one day. Are you sure you have it correct in your search?

I just saw quite a few copies at half.com, starting at $5.62.

Here's a link:

half.com: Confederates in the Attic

The author's name is not a problem, ELLA. I looked for it under the title. In any case, I have found it listed at the library in the town 'next door', and I hope to be able lay hands on it tomorrow. Wish me luck.

Babi

In light of the recent controversial (to put it mildly) statements by Harvard University President Lawrence Summers about women and their possibly "innate lack of ability for math and science", I would like to mention a fairly new biography of Madame Curie, reviewed in the NYT Book Review of November 28, 2004 :

Obsessive Genius : The Inner World of Marie Curie by Barbara Goldsmith.

Thanks, Traude. She was one of my early heroes. I read every book I could find about women who did things, Blackwell, Curie, Keller, Earhart, etc. It will be interesting to read about her with an adult's perspective. Obsessive? That puts a whole new light on her.

Me too Traude, I remember doing a book report on a biography of Madam Curie as a high school sophmore. The truth is that I still remember many of the details of her life from that 1943 report..

Hunter S Thompson's shocking suicide has made me reflect on his writings. Not being a member of the recreational drugs set was off-putting, but his writing was fascinating. Has his work ever been the subject of discussion here? His book on the Hell's Angels kept my "ex" spellbound.

I liked Thompsons writing, but he was a true lunatic in his personal life.

Hunter S Thompson committed suicide?

The headlines in my paper described Thompson as 'gonzo' which I had to look up.

gonzo: idiosyncratically subjective but engagé <gonzo journalism>;

Stephanie, "lunatic" is a good description. Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas sounded like a drug trip/fantasy but the local writing scene stamped him as authentic, not a poseur. He worked on Mother Jones, Ramparts, and, of course, Rolling Stone while it was still in SF. Writers and drugs/alcohol = suicide.

I read a lot of his work and enjoyed it, but kept thinking I would not have liked to be there with him.

Wow gonzo, he made that character up didn't he? The last thing I had seen on him he was threatening people with a gun and acting not well, I'm sorry. Big article on him in Vanity Fair a while back.

Have been rereading some of my old books on children and mental illness. This Stranger, My Son.. Dibs,,,,The Orchard Children..Trying to flesh out the autism book I am reading for the discussion. I still would like to get his first book and have yet to find it.

On the Hunter Thompson suicide, Click Here for a Cnn Web obituary. Though there is little detail on the suicide, there is quite a bit of details on his career.

Just picked up a copy of Splendid Solution. The story of Jonas Salk and the conquest of polio. Numbers of you may remember " The march of Dimes"(MOD) campaign to raise funds for polio research. Basil O'Connor was president of MOD: I had the pleasure of knowing his assistant Edgar Davis who negoiated with the Indian government to capture Resus monkeys for import into the U.S. for expermentation and later the production of the Salk polio vaccine. E.Davis was an exceptional person who never received the attention he deserved. As we are aware the Resus monkey (as are all animals) are sacred to the Hindu religion. Edger Davis successfully conducted the sensitive negotiations involved. I was involved in working with numbers of the polio vaccine producers which was challenging and quite exciting times.

Perry

Of course I remember those days. That sounds like a good read to me. I'll look for it. Thanks.

Nome, Alaska's fighting of the diphtheria epidemic in 1925. Its extremely interesting. Titled "The Cruelest Miles: The Heroic Story of Dogs and Men in a Race Against an Epidemic" by Gay Salisbury and Laney Salisbury. The authors are sisters and have done extensice research for this incredible story. Our library group will discuss it tonight and I will let you know what they think. Its not a dry or hard read but definitely fascinating. How times have changed! Inside the book is this: Alaska, 1925: The diphtheria serum is 674 miles away. Without it, the people of Nome will not survive!"

Hello, I'm new at this forum. I particularly like histories.

I just finished reading "1421" "The Year China Discovered America" by Gavin Menzies. It is a remarkable story of the Ming emperor, Zhu Di, who initiated an exploration of the earth by his fleet, huge junks nearly five hundred feet long.

His fleet under four admirals circumnavigated the world and made discoveries of various parts of the continents, reaching the North Pole and Antarctica, and in the process discovered a way to determine longitude.

Menzies is a former Royal Navy submarine captain who has lived in China. He traveled extensively for fifteen years carrying on an exhaustive research of these four voyages. His knowledge of oceans, currents and trade winds gives quite a dimension to his research. It is a fascinating book and well-written.

I saw this on PBS, MARIJO, and it was a great story. I was astounded at what the Chinese accomplished, and wondered why I never heard any of this in World History back in high school. It seems we studied the Far East only when it impinged on European/American history. I suspect today's students are getting even less; I'm constantly being surprised at how little the younger generations know even about our own history.

..Babi

Babi:

I'm glad to know it was on PBS. I agree it was a fantastic story. I think it is very gradually becoming known, but I think, too, that it is such a recent discovery that it will take a lot longer to reach the general public. Imagine all the countries whose histories will need altering. This alone may stop this information from getting into the schools soon. I hope it does break through eventually.

A Chinese junk has been found and identified in the Sacramento River.

I think for now this information is remaining in universities and colleges.

Thank you Ann, Merijo, and BaBi for your comment on "The Year China discovered Amdrica." I had heard previous comment on it previously. Others can learn more by Clicking Here.

Also I want to announce that about June 1st I plan to propose a discussion of the new Richard Rhodes, Biography of "John James Audubon- The Making of An American" Click Here. The discussion of the life of this interesting American who achieved world fame will begin July 1st if 5 or more Seniornetters sign-up to participate..

MeriJo - regarding the Chinese junk. The Chinese were used as "slave" labor for the California gold rush. There is a town called Chinese Camp in the foothills in the area of the gold rush.

Kathy

Harold Arnold:

Thank you for your links. I think Menzies wrote a credible history, and in a very fascinating way. I will agree with one of the critics that it did slow up here and there, but it was very well thought through, I think.

Kathy Hill:

Thanks, yes, I know the Chinese were here at the time of the Gold Rush - also to help build the transcontinental railroad.

This particular junk is one that is buried under the silt of the Sacramento River. Dr. John Furry of the Natural History Museum of Northern California took magnetometer readings of the area. A buried object 85 feet long and 30 feet wide was detected - this was the size of a trading junk that accompanied the fleets. Fragments of wood that were brought up were carbon dated to 1410. Also seeds of conifers indigenous only to China and rice were found in the area. Rice was not cultivated in California at the time. Money is needed to bring up the junk as it has suffered some damage lying in the river for so long

Mr Menzies discoveries have generated interest and controversy all over the world. He has a web site where folks with additional information regarding the Chinese voyages can post. Since the original book was published other discoveries have been made, some of which appear in the paperback edition now out. I'm sure Menzies will have to revise again and again with addtional paperback editions.

Some people dismiss his findings out of hand, but the evidence (IMO) is overwhelming. And, yes, history books the world over will have to be revised.

The Dynasty that produced these magnificent voyages either died out or was overthrown, and the next one completely closed China off from the world, burned the supply of pepper, the manuscripts written by people taking part in the voyages, and disgraced even the idea of exploration.

The book is a thrilling read.

Howzat:

The Ming Dynasty - of Emperor Zhu Di - fell during the two years of the exploratory voyages. The mandarins who took over considered the ships and the idea of exploration frivolous - the ships were left to rot at their moorings. These mandarins who took control had no idea of the worthiness of the logs and documents and ordered them burned. And they closed China to the world.

"Lost in China's long, self-imposed isolation that followed was the knowledge that Chinese ships had reached America seventy years before Columbus and circumnavigated the globe a century before Magellan."

You've stirred my curiousity, MariJo. I didn't know the Mandarins were responsible for 'closing down' China. (That's bureaucrats for you!) I'm going to have to access my encyclopedia and find out more. I'm fairly sure that some time later one of the emperors was especially adamant about keeping out the foreigners. There's a gap in my education here, and that's always a challenge.

Babi

Babi:

Emperor Zhu Di was the third Ming Emperor under whom exploration flourished. His son agreed with the mandarins - I think bureaucracy, too, - and went along with the ending of the exploratory voyages and the closing off of China to the world.

China(table ware) carried from the western coast of south America via Spanish treasure trains. A typical route used followed the ismas of Panama to sea ports. "China" has been recovered from numbers of wreaked spanisn gallions

Yes, pabrett, even though China no longer went out on the seas as it had for so many years, the west did go to China - especially in the late sixteenth and seventeenth century. Then after that, trade between the west and the east did begin to settle into a regular route.

The book has a photograph of lovely blue and white Ming Dynasty china - The colors are steadfast-even after all the years of being lost. Just so delicate in design.

I hope it's all right to say that I have just finished reading another book that is informative. It is the story of "The Professor and the Madman" by Simon Winchester. It tells of the writing of the Oxford English Dictionary. It has been out awhile, so maybe others here have read it.

The "Madman" was a very intelligent and sensitive man when not taken over by his illness, and during the years that he participated in the reading necessary to gather words and meanings for the dictionary - he was the happiest he had ever been. He had a most compassionate superintendent at the asylum who allowed him to have two cells, one for his books and one for his living quarters.

The Professor was the director of the Dictionary project who developed a warm friendship with the Madman.

It is not a very long book, but so clearly written, and relates so well the fragility of the mind.

I have been doing a lot of reading because I have developed a bad arthritic right hip and in between the moving around that I must do I have been reading a lot while resting it.

That sounds like an interesting book, MeriJo. I'll look for it.

Sorry to hear about your hip. Is there a hip replacement in your future?

was discussed in 1999.

"Professor and the Madman ~ Simon Winchester ~ 01/99 ~ Nonfiction"

I've picked up a small, very interesting book, called "Morrie, In His Own Words". I'm sure many of you read or saw the film of "Tuesdays With Morrie". This is the same man. Throughout his illness he had written bits of observations, wisdom, insights, etc., on the problems of dealing with loss of function. Before his death, he was asked to enlarge on these bits, explaining them more fully. The result is a very helpful book, not only for the ill, but for those of us who are also losing capabilities we once had. It is easy to read, and well worth it.

BAbi

Mary Z.

I don't know about the hip replacement. It's been recommended. So far I have had a cortisone shot.

Pat West:

That was before I got my computer. I'm not surprised that it was discussed. It's a fine book.

Babi:

Thanks for your recommendation. It would be helpful to read, I think.

When the Mississippi ran backwards,. Empire, Intrigue, Murder and THE New Madrid Earthquakes I havent read it yet but since I grew up in that area and lived in several states that was affected by the earthquakes I am really interested in reading this book .>Will let you know ..anna

The author is Clarissa Pinkola Estes, PhD. She's a jungian analyst and contadora story teller. I took my internet nickname from the book (wildwumon). This book changed my life. Has anyone else read it?

Welcome to SN Books .. Sounds like you might like Women's Role in a Democratic World ~ Woman's Inhumanity to Woman ~ Phyllis Chesler ~ June 1

Yes, I've read it, and I liked some of the stories, but others were hard for me to believe.

Welcome to Senior'net Books and the Non-fiction board. Thank you for your interest. Click Here for additional information on "Women Who Run With the Wolves: Myths and Stories of the Wild Woman Archetype" from the B&N catalog.

I have just finished reading a most gratifying book in that it ends well for the principal. It is "The Map That Changed The World" by Simon Winchester, the story of William Smith who managed to live long enough to hear himself called "The Father Of Geology". The man had a life of travail after he had drawn the map of the underside of England, Wales and part of Scotland. This was a task he had undertaken based on his personal interest and curiosity and sense of discovery. It was a task that he completed all alone. He belonged to the wrong "class" in a very class-conscious England. He was an orphan, basically uneducated, but full of extraordinary insight when it came to observing the strata, and what was in some layers of earth. As a result he collected over two thousand specimens of fossils and rocks and identified them. He had this opportunity in the process of building canals and his knowledge that grew from there.

If one likes this kind of biographical history I recommend it as a great book to read.

Hi, folks! What an interesting discussion. Non-fiction, especially biographies, has become my latest reading passion. Hope it's ok if I join in.

The book about William Smith sounds interesting. Building canals certainly was a learning experience. There are several new books out about building canals. I just finished Wedding of the Waters by Peter L. Bernstein about the building of the Erie Canal. I think I enjoyed it particularly because I spent so much time driving through that part of New York where the canal stretched. Here's a blurb from Amazon:

"Begun in 1817 and completed in 1825, the Erie Canal stretches 363 miles across upstate New York from Buffalo on Lake Erie to Albany on the Hudson River. A stunning achievement, the canal was hacked through a densely forested pass in the Appalachian Mountains using only axes, shovels, low-grade explosive power, beasts of burden, and some ingenious devices. The engineers and workers created locks, bypassed rapids and waterfalls, and adjusted to countless changes in elevation. When the canal was completed it became one of the wonders of the world...."

I just bought The Path Between the Seas: The Creation of the Panama Canal by David McCullough. Should be good. McCullough is so hot now what with 1776 just out. I just finished his John Adams, which I finally got around to reading, and loved McCullough's style - so readable.

I noticed many on this site are Founding Fathers fans. I didn't see any comments about Gouverneur Morris. I had never even heard of him until recently when I read that he wrote the American Constitution (on a Continental Congress committee). When I saw Gentleman Revolutionary : Gouverneur Morris, the Rake Who Wrote the Constitution, by Richard Brookhiser, I had to read it. A rake!! And he certainly was. If you want to read about a most unusual founding father, who lost his leg and much of the use of his right arm when he was young, and who married the lady involved in probably the biggest scandal of 18th century America, check this out.

Morris was our minister to France during the Reign of Terror. Some of his diary is online. Here's one site:

Gouverneur Morris, The Diary and Letters of Gouverneur Morris, vol. 2 http://oll.libertyfund.org/Home3/Book.php?recordID=0215.02

Thank you marni0308 for your Post #222. That is an interesting site that you linked. It includes a link to an on-line copy of Governor Morris's Journal. He was US minister to France during the years of the French Revolution with a real bird's eye view of the event. I love reading primary historical sources like that

Senior's net Books has discussed many of the popular recent biographies. Rembrandts Eyes, a biography]y of the Artist Rembrandt in now being proposed by Ginny for July discussion, Click Here. .

In the past Ella and I and others have led many discussions of popular historical figures including John Adams, Ben Franklin and others.. I think a discussion of the Joseph Ellis biography of Washington, "His Excellency, George Washington” may still develop this winter. Also I have the Richard Rhodes Bio of John James Audubon in the drawing board for late winter or next spring and I intend to offer a rerun of the Steven Ambrose Biography of Merewether Lewis, "Undaunted Courage" next August as a 200th anniversary commemoration of the completion of the historic trek

If you have not read "Thomas Friedmans latest book, "The World Is Flat" it may be a real eye opener for some of you.......Not a fast read but told me much I was not aware of in this global market world of ours.

marni0308, Bernstein is going to be on Book TV (on C-Span2 in our market) talking about his book on the Erie Canal. It's from 9-10 p.m. ET Saturday. I had written down the three titles you mentioned. John's reserved this one, and should have it sometime next week. I always check the on-line schedule for Book TV to see what's being discussed on the weekend.

Inventing the Rest of Our lives , Women In Second Adulthood......what matters.......what works.....what's next.......by Suzanne Braun Levine.........a source of inspiration for women in their 50;s, 60's, and onward........Senior Net was also mentioned in the sources and web sites at the end of the book.........it was so good I read it in two days................

Mary Z: Thanks so much for the info about the C-Span program. I missed it! Darn. I had to travel down to the Bronx to move furniture stored after my aunt died. I didn't catch the note on time. I wonder if they rerun programs. I've never watched their Book TV. Is it a regular show?

Marni

marni, BookTV, in our market, is what C-Span2 broadcasts on the weekends - from early Saturday morning through early Monday morning. It's all nonfiction. The Erie Canal piece was on only once this weekend. I check the web site usually on Friday for the schedule for the upcoming weekend. It's http://www.booktv.org/ , then click on TV schedule. I've found some really interesting stuff there.

I opened Mary's link and found that I could watch the whole CSPAN program on the Erie Canal book written by Peter Bernstein. Thanks for that link Mary. Marni, I have always been interested in the Erie Canal and had no idea that it was started on before we were a country or at least thought of before then. Amazing! Hope you can watch and listen Mr Bernstein speak as I did this afternoon.

My gosh, its just amazing to me that our forefathers were such forward thinking folks when it came to exploring and opening commercial waters and looking for a way across this country to the Pacific in the early 1800's.

We just came in from a two week vacation visiting the NW and the Lewis and Clark sites that are in Oregon.

I've never tried to listen to it on the computer, Ann. I guess I never thought of it before. Good for you for finding that out.

We followed the L&C trail from Illinois to the Oregon coast in 2003. It was really a great trip, and so wonderful to imagine how they must have felt seeing that incredible country for the first time. I'm glad you got to do it, too.

I am reading a book about French winemakers of the Lot river valley. Titled: Families Of The Vine Subtitled: Seasons Among the Winemakers of Southwest France by Michael S. Sanders. Its a well written book and I recommend it to anyone who is interested.

This author has another title out that intrigues me also. "From Here, You Can't See Paris". I must look for it at the library which is where I got the wine story.

I have also been able to reserve the Wedding of the Waters at my library. Hope its as good as program was.

Mary/Ann: I'm going to listen to the Bernstein interview. Thanks so much for the link. That is cool!

I've started the McCullough Path Between the Seas about the building of the Panama Canal. It is absolutely unbelievable how many people died there from yellow fever and malaria and other diseases. Some sources claimed that 3 out of 4 men that went to work there died of disease, many within weeks of arrival. One man wrote of his experience canoeing down the Chagres River after a storm had caused great flooding and great destruction of the canal. He said he saw many tree tops in the water, black with millions of tarantulas! Ugh!!

Click Herefor a link to "The Path Between Two Seas by David Mc Cullough. This is an early McCullough book going back to 1978. As marni0308 has pointed out above it covers an interesting subject.

Also I see in the Barnes and Noble catalog that David Mc Cullough has a new book just released by his publisher in May of 2005, This is "1776", the story of the single year, that began with 13 dissatisfied but technically loyal English colonies, and ended with their declared independence and the eventual creation of a new nation. Click Here for information including several short reviews from the B&N Catalog.

McCullough's book 1776 sounds excellent. I've read his John Adams, also, and loved it. He provides the most fascinating details. The author is making the rounds giving interviews to sell 1776. I noticed on the CSpan2 Book TV schedule kindly provided by Ann and Mary that this coming Sunday, June 19, McCullough will be interviewed re 1776 - once at 7:00 p.m. and again at 11:00 p.m. Here's a link to the schedule:

http://www.booktv.org/schedule/

Marni

I mentioned McCullough's book 1776 in another discussion, asking if it was being considered for discussion. Looks like I should have ask the question here.

Sun

I am reading the new book on President Clinton titled "The Survior"..Seems well written, easy to read, and so far a fair treatment............

Click Here for information on the bio of President Clinton mentioned by Nancy above. This book is by John F. Harris; it is another new title just released by the publisher in May 2005. IF anyone hears further news and comment on this title you might post it here. In particular not any announcements of C-SPAN interviews involving this title.

Sun I suspect that the McCullough, "1776 title is a bonus opportunity title arising out of McCullough's previous John Adams research. Don’t get me wrong, "there is nothing particularly wrong with that." I suggest watching its reception and possibly next year after a paperback becomes available it can be chosen for discussion

By the way, when I saw this title in the discussion the question immediately appeared in my mind, wasn’t there another book with this title a few years ago? What I was thinking of was of course the Gore Vidal historical novel “1876” published in 2000. Click Here. This was the third volume of a series of historical novels on the theme of the past American historical experience.

Harold, you mean "note any announcements" rather than "not any announcements"?

Harold I saw the author of the Clinton book on book notes on C-Span this past week-end...........

I bought and have started reading "Undaunted Courage" by Stephen Ambrose while I was in Powell's in Portland, Oregon. We were able to see several sites that are dedicated to the Lewis and Clark expedition along the Columbia River and in Astoria, Oregon.

I saw on C-Span this morning where Mr. McCoullah will be on booksnotes Sunday at 7p.m. and 11p.m to talk about his new book "1776" By the way I am flying through the new book , "The Survior" about President Clinton.....I sort of had a love , hate, feeling for him and now I know why.......I like him better now for some reason....I don't think he looks very good just as a side note.....I think he should probably rest more and take better care of himself.

I saw Ann's note about reading about the Lewis & Clark expedition. This is a great time to be reading about it because of the bicentennial and all of the hoopla going on about it. I've read all kinds of fascinating tidbits about people involved in the expedition.

I saw some excerpts from expedition journals re Lewis' periodic falls into depression. I read that he was a manic depressive and just several years after the expedition ended, he committed suicide. (I wonder if he had a disease like malaria which was so prevalent then. I've read that can cause depression.)

In Larry McMurtry's Berrybender Narratives about the west in the 1830's, one of the main characters is Pomp Charbonneau, son of Sacagawea and Toussant Charboneau, guides on the Lewis and Clark expedition. I read a number of articles on the web about Jean Baptiste (Pomp) Charbonneau. He was a real person and led a fascinating life. He was born during the expedition and traveled with it. Clark gave him the nickname Pomp from "Pomp and Circumstance" because of the way he danced when he toddled around. He is the youngest person to ever have been depicted on a U.S. stamp. I could go on and on about his life and would like to read more about him.

Has anyone read a good biography about Pomp Charbonneau?

I still consider the Ambrose 1996 Merewether Lewis Biography the best and most readable current book on the Lewis and Clark expedition and the best available account of the trip. I led a discussion of this title in 1998 (see the archives) and plan to offer it again next August as a 200th Anniversary commemoration of the event.

Captain Lewis after his return from the west certainly suffered from a. manic-depressive condition. He was never successful in his post-expedition appointment as Governor of the Missouri Territory and despite his hero status was never able to find a bride. This condition complicated by too much alcohol lead to his early death by suicide.

The only evidence that the manic-depressive condition figured in his command of the expedition is the periods during which he failed to keep a daily journal. He certainly was an effective commander through the three-year trek to the Pacific and back and in particular there is no evidence during the expedition years that he ever took any extra alcohol other than what was occasionally given to the troops..

I am going to spend the weekend in the country where there is no cable Tv so I will miss the McCuppough interview on C-Span. Perhaps any one who catches it will give us your comments here.

MARNI, thanks for mentioning Larry McMurtry's "Berrybender Narratives". I had not heard of those before, and it sounds like something I would enjoy. I hope I can find it.

Babi

Babi: This series of 4 novels by McMurtry is fiction. They're in the style of his novel Lonesome Dove. Some of his characters, such as Kit Carson and Pomp and Toussant Charbonneau, are real persons. But, McMurtry has taken plenty of literary license with events in their lives. If you like novels about settling and roaming the west, you might like these books. I did! (Lonesome Dove is probably one of my top 10 favorite novels of all time.) Reader beware - they are very graphic.

Marni

Thanks for the warning, Marni. I'll approach with caution.

Babi

There was a play titled "1776" that came out many years ago. I saw it in San Francisco back in the sixties, and it has been recently brought back to Broadway for another run.

There have been references to the return to Broadway of that play.

In the historical novel,"Sacajawea" by Waldo there is reference made to her son. However, in that book he is called, "Pompey". There is a geographical formation along one of the rivers in the northwest along the route Lewis and Clark took that is called, "Pompey's Tower" as mentioned in that novel. It is a very carefully annotated story and one gets the feeling that this is a pretty accurate account of the journey of Lewis and Clark.

There is also "From Sea to Shining Sea" by James Alexander Thom which was well written and more about the John Clark family of Virginia but includes the Lewis and Clark expedition. I enjoyed it and another of Thom's books which was made into a movie over the last few years entitled, "Follow the River" which is also a true story of a woman and her children who was kidnapped by Indians in Virginia and taken to Indiana where she escaped and came home without her children.

Dear Friends,

The single most moving aspect of publishing Walking the Bible and Abraham in the last few years has been hearing from readers like you. The experience has changed my life by taking the one-way process of writing books and making it truly interactive. Thank you.

I am pleased to tip you off to a number of exciting new projects coming this year.

First, I have spent the last few years traveling through Israel, Iraq, and Iran, working on a new book about the origins of religion and the Bible. Where God was Born: A Journey to the Roots of Religion will be published by William Morrow on Tuesday, September 13th. Beginning with a tense helicopter ride over the West Bank and climaxing with a hair-raising airlift into Baghdad, the book visits biblical sites rarely seen by Westerners, including the spot where David fought Goliath and secret underground tunnels in Jerusalem, the Garden of Eden and Babylon in Iraq, and the home of Queen Esther in Iran.

PARADE Magazine is scheduled to run a piece on September 11, and I am slated to be on GOOD MORNING AMERICA on publication day, September 13. Over the fall I will be traveling to over 20 cities. I hope one of them will be near you.

Also, I spent six months beginning last fall retracing the journey of Walking the Bible for an extraordinary, 3-hour PBS television mini-series, filmed in high definition, that we hope to have on the air early next year. The experience was mind-blowing and took me halfway up Mount Ararat looking for Noah's Ark, to the lost cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, and to the top of one of the pyramids in Egypt. We hope this broadcast will be a never-in-a-lifetime experience.

In conjunction, I am finally fulfilling what was surely the number one request I received through my site: publishing a book of photographs. Walking the Bible: A Photographic Journey will be released as early as October.

As a thank you for reaching out to me in recent years, we have decided to offer you various sneak-peeks of all this material over the next few months, including a few photographs, special materials for discussion groups, even an exclusive advanced excerpt of Where God Was Born. If you have any friends who'd like to receive this material, feel free to encourage them to register at www.brucefeiler.com. If you'd prefer not to receive such correspondence, please unsubscribe by clicking the link below.

Otherwise, if you haven't visited www.brucefeiler.com. recently, we've added new features, including some photographs, and are working on even more, including interactive maps, links to biblical resources, and a trailer for the PBS series. You won't believe the quality of the camera work. You can also see the book cover and read the description of Where God Was Born on my site, or on www.amazon.com and www.bn.com, where it's already on display.

And, of course, you can reach me through the site.

Until then, happy reading and happy travels. I am grateful for your support, and hope to see you this fall.

Yours,

Bruce Feiler

Sacagawea’s baby was born in Feb 1805 while the expedition was in their winter quarters at Fort Mandan. His was named Jean Baptiste Charbonneau. The soldiers nicknamed the baby, “Pomp,” and he completed the rest to the Lewis and Clark treck mostly in a cradleboard on his mother’s back.

Later Captain Clark supervised his education at St Louis, and as a young man he became a mountain man and enjoyed a long career. He became asssociated with a German Prince touring the American West and spent time in Europe with him. later during the Mexican War Pomp served as a scout and guide for the US Army in the operation against Santa Fe. He lived until 1866 when he died of pneumonia in California.

Click Here for a short 5 chapter Web biography (total reading time less than 20 minutes).

I find Pomp Charbonneau's story fascinating. What an unusual life for a native American in the 19th century! I hadn't realized that his sister was also adopted by Clark.

Pomp's gravesite at Inskip Station is on the National Park Service's National Register of Historic Places.

His gravestone has the following engraved on it:

"AS A BABY WAS WITH HIS MOTHER SACAJAWEA - A MEMBER OF THE LEWIS AND CLARK EXPEDITION - AS A MAN WAS A PIONEER OF THE WEST - OF PLEASANT MANNER AND ESTEEM IN THE COMMUNITY"

You can see photos of his memorial plaque and his gravestone at the following site:

http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/or/innskipstation.html

Hey, what is this! Good discussions, good ideas, from nonfiction book lovers; thank you all for your comments. I have never read all of McCullough's books - and must get them from the library - who doesn't like his style of writing and his careful research! Didn't he write one on the Johnstown Flood? We almost made it to that museum in PA. one trip, darn! Not that I want to see gruesome pictures but I'd like to know how it all happened and why.

I want to read the Panama Canal book one of you mentioned. I know something of it, but not all the details.

I'm reading two fascinating books - "THE GENIUS FACTORY: The Curious History of the Nobel Prize Sperm Bank" by David Plotz and just today I brought home "THE SEARDCH FOR MAJOR PLAGGE: The Nazi Who Saved Jews" by Michael Good.

Excellent reading! Did you know, or am I the only person who never thought of it, that Hitler got several of his ideas for the perfect race, sterilization, racism from Americans in the early 20's or 30's and a couple of states, one of whom was Virginia, passed laws requiring certain citizens of low IQ to be sterilized. That was an eye-opener for me, another shameful fact in our history.

We are not perfect in this country but I wouldn't live anywhere else! Still I think we need to be aware of shameful acts in our history, lest they be repeated.

Just Monday I finished the McCullough Panama Canal book (The Path Between the Seas.) It took me awhile. It had extremely interesting info and then occasionally I'd get bogged down in the details like how much dirt each train car could carry. But it was an eye opener - the stories about the jungle conditions that had to be battled, the terrible diseases, the mosquitos and other wild life, the continuing land slides, rain, racism, bravery, politics, revolution, bribery. 25,000 people died building the canal! I even learned that the US bought the Phillippines for many millions of dollars. I probably sound totally naive, but I had no idea we bought them.

I remembered to watch the McCullough interview re 1776 on CSpan2 this weekend. Did anyone see it? He is an excellent speaker! I loved the interview - it was thrilling. He spent a great deal of his time talking about George Washington, why he was such a great leader, and why the soldiers continued to follow him after his disastrous military losses in 1776. Obviously, Washington is one of our greatest national heroes. But, even though I'm learning more about how he was a flawed mortal as well as a great leader, I admire him more all the time.

Yes, McCullough did write a book about the Johnstown flood. The History Channel just showed a documentary about the flood a couple of weeks ago. Wow. What a story and what a terrible tragedy!

Ella: Interesting that Virginia was one of the states that passed the law requiring certain citizens of low IQ to be sterilized. Virginia certainly has had an interesting history. It has produced some of the best and some of the worst, I guess. I just finished American Sphinx about Thomas Jefferson and am reading a biography about James Madison now - two Virginians. Such paradoxes!

I remember learning about the enforced sterilization when I was in high school and how shocking it was. But, I think there are still many people in our country today who believe in the purity of the bloodline - neo-Nazis, for example.

Good to have you back. We must do another non-fiction title this winter Mccullough, Ellis, or et al.

We did do a discussion of McCullough's :John Adam." Has Seniorsnet book' done others by him. Thinking back I don't come up with others?

Which we all carried with us in DC for Mr McCollogh to sign. I left my copy back at our table because it was so heavy! Am I sorry?? Yes, I am!

Thanks, Marnie, for answering my post! Nice to keep a conversation going and I love the books you are reading. We discussed The Jefferson Book - American Sphinx - some time ago and you can find it in the archives. There was controversy at the time, and I can't remember if it was in the book, or our discussion, but it was about Jefferson's relationship with the black housemaid and I believe that it is all documented now; but at the time of the book it caused a furor of some sort. (hazy memory here)

I'm going to get McCullough's books about the flood and the Panama Canal - thanks again for the suggestions.

I'll be moving next month into a Senior Citizen apartment building so can't commit to a book discussion until fall, probably. Gosh, I hope I get my computer set up properly in a new place, please, please pray I do - all of you! How I would miss it! I shall put in in the bedroom which is rather large and will accommmodate it.

Who else is reading something good that would make a lively discussion?

Let us know how you like your Senior Citizen apartment building, ELLA. One never knows what is around the next corner in this life. I hope I am permanently settled where I am, but who knows.

Babi

I'll be taking the SeniorNet Latin 101 course in the fall. I don't know how my poor brain will handle that so it will be very nice to read a McCullough book with the book club.

My husband and I watched a documentary on TV last night - "We Built This City" - about some things that were built over time in Manhattan. It was very interesting and reminded me of our recent trip on the "Patriot Trail" in lower Manhattan. Has anyone gone on this self-guided walking tour? I read about it on the web and we decided to go with some friends on a beautiful Saturday in May. We started down in Battery Park and visited the small museum in renovated Clinton Castle, an old fort built just prior to the War of 1812. We saw panoramas of Manhattan which showed how a good-sized section of Manhattan is on land recovered from the water with land-fill - just like they've done in Boston. This was something we saw in the documentary. Then, following our guide from the web, we visited historic sites, such as Trinity Church (saw Alexander Hamilton's grave), St. Paul's Church (saw Washington's pew), Federal Hall where Washington was inaugurated, a bunch of other neat places, and had lunch at Fraunces Tavern, where Washington said farewell to his officers. It was a really fun and exciting day.

The documentary also got into the building of the Brooklyn Bridge. This reminded me of David McCullough. He wrote a book about the building of the Brooklyn Bridge. From the documentary, it looks as though that must be a fascinating story.

The Johnstown Flood is mesmersising.

Ella, that will make two of us living in senior's apartments. As you know I moved here to a 2-bedroom apartment at the Chandler Senior's complex in San Antonio. I realy like it since it provides a great location on the near North Side near to down town and easy access to just about everything.

Go Spsurs!

mami:

What a fascinating tour you took! I think that would be very satisfying! I have been to New York only once to visit. We took the children and the most memorable things we did were connected with history.

The books mentioned here sound very good, especially by the authors mentioned.

I have read, "An Empire of Wealth" by John Steele Gordon. It is the epic history of American economic power. Begins in colonial times and ends with 9/11. It defines America's history from the view of its economic beginnings and growth. It is very well written and describes how so many things came about to further the colonization and development of the United States. What wonderful, gutsy people worked to make this new land succeed! This is a very entertaining book as well.

MeriJo: It WAS a wonderful tour! I've been finding lately that info I find on the internet, as well as in books and movies, really affects what I do with my life. I feel as though I'm turning into a researcher. It's funny how one thing leads to another and you learn so much. The more you learn, the more you see how things are related to each other.

Example: Last year I saw the movie "Gangs of New York." It got me interested in the 5 points area of Manhattan where the gangs lived and fought. What was it? Was it a real place? I looked it up on the web and found an old map of it with info including an old illustration of a steamboat on a large pond in 18th century Manhattan near the 5 points vicinity, next to Canal Street. Turns out the pond eventually became disgustingly filthy from factories that dumped waste into it. The pond was filled in and tenements were built on the site. But because it was soggy, right away the buildings started to sink. The only people who would move there were the poor. So, that's where the Irish immigrants moved (ergo the gang fights.) Later, the Italian immigrants moved there, and even later, the Chinese. Today, the area is Manhattan's "Little Italy" and "Chinatown." And to this day, no sky scrapers can be built there because of the instability of the land.

A note under the illustration of the pond explained that the steamboat on the pond was invented by John Fitch. I was astounded. My son attended John Fitch elementary school. John Fitch junior high school is in Groton. Nobody I know had a clue as to who John Fitch was. I found a truly fascinating biography of him on the web. John Fitch is the inventor of the steamboat! (I thought it was Robert Fulton. Nope. Fitch got the patent.) John Fitch was born and raised in Windsor, CT, my town! His father apprenticed him out as an indentured servant for a period. Eventually he became a surveyor in the Ohio territory just like George Washington. Fitch fought in the American Revolution, was captured by indians, was tortured and forced to "walk the gauntlet," was traded to the British who later traded him to the Americans in a prisoner exchange. He was an inventor. He tried to make a business of his steamboat invention but it didn't work out. Others tried to steal credit for his invention. Fitch apparently was a manic depressive, like Meriwether Lewis. And, like Lewis, in a down period, John Fitch committed suicide.

And, by George, last September when I visited the Smithsonian Museum of American History, they had a special exhibit of American maritime history with a whole wall of information about John Fitch!

I still think "The World Is Flat" by Thomas Friedman is an eye opener....Have any of you read it?

We haven't read Friedman's book, but heard a 2-hour interview with him on C-Span2 a few weeks ago. Most interesting.

mami:

It does make a difference, I think. Since I have been at home more with my ailments I have read more books and checked the Internet and have found genuine enjoyment from these things. I am older and can bring more of my past knowledge to my reading and thus make it more pleasurable. I have wished that I had read more when younger, but I had different obligations and do not regret having attended to them. This may be the time for me to do all this reading.

It must have been somewhat of a thrill to discover all those connections to your hometown through John Fitch. Just fun, I think!

MeriJo: I feel the same way about reading. I worked for so many years, as most of us have, nearly my entire life. I'd come home from work and have chores or kids to attend to. Then I'd usually plop down exhausted in from of TV. I'd read in bed before I fell asleep, or on vacation or at the beach on weekends - always fiction.

Reading was always my special hobby. And now that I'm retired, I'm spending a great deal of time catching up on reading and finding new interests in reading non-fiction. I've always been interested in history, but up to two years ago you wouldn't have caught me reading a biography. Fiction was my thing. Now I'm inhaling non-fiction, particularly of American and English historical events and people. It is so interesting! I think my husband thinks I'm a little nutty because I spend so much time reading and talking about my books and articles.

Thanks for the mention of Friedman's The World is Flat. I looked for it and found it a must read.

Is it ever nice to hear from you, Ella. I hope everything settles down for you very soon. The book discussions I've enjoyed with you!

"Hitler got several of his ideas for the perfect race, sterilization, racism from Americans in the early 20's or 30's and a couple of states, one of whom was Virginia, passed laws requiring certain citizens of low IQ to be sterilized.... We are not perfect in this country but I wouldn't live anywhere else! Still I think we need to be aware of shameful acts in our history, lest they be repeated."

Eugenics began, and was primarily concerned with, issues of class.

My career for many years was with women's organizations where, among other things, I edited a newsletter. I once researched a story on the history of the Woman Suffrage Movement including the 1899 national suffrage meeting in Grand Rapids, Michigan. One of the Grand Rapids organizers in 1899 was a wealthy woman (her husband was a timber baron) who was interested in many social causes. In an 1899 interview she said she tried to help women in poverty but had asked herself 'Why were some women poor?' Her answer was eugenics, the 'science of improving the human race'.

Further Definitions: (1) The study of improving a species by artificial selection; usually refers to the selective breeding of humans. (2) A doctrine which holds that the human race can be "improved" by selective control of breeding to eradicate less "desirable" traits in society. The supporters of eugenics argue that social problems are caused by inherited genetic traits in people which can be bred out to resolve the problem for future generations. (3) A scientific application to human populations of Mendellian plant genetics, the notion that discrete traits are heritable across generations.

Ugh! The social do-gooder asked herself why some women were poor while she was rich and her answer was basically 'Because I'm better than they are. They are my inferiors.' The answer wasn't that she was lucky or that society was unbalanced or unfair. The fault lay within the victims themselves, the poor. This woman eventually funded a School of Eugenics at a prominent Eastern college, Vassar I think.

Eugenics originated in England with Sir Francis Galton who took the term from the Greek 'well-born'. Galton believed that the well-born are hereditarily endowed with noble qualities and that biological inheritance of leadership qualities had determined the social status of Britain's ruling classes.

America took up the cause of eugenics. By 1913 the Michigan State Legislature, not alone among the states in any sense, passed the Suffrage and Eugenics Bill. American supporters of eugenics included Harriman, Carnegie, and Rockefeller. John H. Kellogg, of cereal fame, founded the Race Betterment Society which was highly influential in its day. Rockefeller helped found the German eugenics program and even funded the program that Josef Mengele worked on before he went to Auschwitz.

Eugenics in America included forced sterilization and initially concentrating on the poor and powerless but expanding to include others. Eugenics policies included sterilization, immigration restriction and race segregation.

Not a pleasant history but one to remember and learn from.

Marvelle

Interesting that George Bernard Shaw's answer to 'why are some people poor?' was not eugenics, but rather a lack of opportunity. He believed that education should be available to all and this idea is prominent in his play "Pygmalion" which is currently being discussed in Books.

Marvelle

Marvelle: What an interesting post! And shocking. Today, we're in a whole new world with the Human Genome Project and the ongoing discoveries of genetics and cloning. I wonder what the future will bring.

Marni

Ella: Let us know how your move is going and how you like your new apartment. Seems like there are many advantages to living in a seniors apartment. Today, my son moved back home from his apartment because he's going through a big career change - He's going to law school this fall. (He hasn't lived at home for 7 years!) Living at home will save him money. Naturally, today was record heat (95) and humid where we live. Tough move. It will be interesting living together again. We'll probably all get on each other's nerves!

Harold: You are lucky to live in San Antonio. Sounds like a great place. I visited Texas (Houston and Galveston) for the first time last spring, but we didn't have time to visit San Antonio.

When I first read that the woman looking to end poverty found the solution in eugenics I didn't know what that word meant. I had to dig around to find the shocking answers. Eugenics was/is a smug solution by the well-off who blamed the victim rather than wondering if perhaps how they acquired their own wealth and position wasn't morally defective in itself. Steal land and then cut down whole forests, and voila you're a millionaire, etc etc.

Eugenics was a national movement, considered progressive, it wasn't limited to a few states. The Suffrage and Eugenics Bill passed in the Michigan state legislature in 1913 and by 1945 there'd been about 3,000 sterilizations under that law.

Marvelle

Marvelle:

That was a very informative post. Thank you.

In recent years there has been an increase in the discussion of why people are poor. Among the many discoveries, theories, ideas and studies (I think I have covered them all.) has been evidence that men's brains are different from women's brains - Scientific American and the LATimes had long articles on this. Also evidence that people who are richer, are smarter, who are healthier, are smarter. To me this points to the importance of education.

For most of my teaching career at the primary level, I noticed that if my little students were exposed to events, experiences, stories, films and just guidance as they worked that they progressed beautifully. I had heard a very generous-hearted administrator speak to a conference audience - that all children who were warm could learn - he was from Oakland CA. which to this day struggles with an influx of low-economic children. There is always a new crop of youngsters in this category every year. Their intellectual level can be raised by good teaching and an activity to demonstrate that a particular learning has been acquired - such as a play, mural etc.

I am encouraged that nutrition in the snacks found in schools and in school lunches is being treated seriously. Children need good diets, and enjoyable exercise. I think that it is important for little folks to dig a hole to China or just loll on their backs and watch the clouds go by. I would avoid too much regimentation in recreation. They need leisurely or unrestricted time to think of all the things that have entered their minds.

There we have the two most important things to becoming financially comfortable, if not rich. Improved attitude toward learning, and an improved attitude toward food. And also, a third, an improved attitude toward recreation.

Excellent points, MariJo. I have seen children so busy-busy-busy they never had time to even find out who they were and what they really wanted.

Babi

BaBi:

Exactly! It's worrisome.

The following books should provide interesting reading this summer.

Titles are: Madam Secretary_ A memoir.. of Madeleine Albright, this tome (700 pages) appears to be a really interesting read, is available in paperback and discounted at around nine bucks from a list of $14.95.

On PBS I saw an interview of authors,Bethany McLean and Peter Elkind, writers/reporters for Forbes's and Time magazine. and was fascinated so purchased their book: The Smartest Guys in the Room_ The Amazing Rise and Scandalous Fall of Enron.

The third book titled : The New American Militarism: How Americas are seduced by war. I also saw the author Andrew J. Bacevich interviewed on PBS. His credentials are most impressive...professor of International relations at Boston University,a graduate of West Point, a Vietnam veteran and a doctorate from Princeton. The book should be an excellent read/study. regards...potsherd

"...evidence that people who are richer, are smarter, who are healthier, are smarter."

There is a false assumption imbedded in that 'evidence'. The assumption of many well-to-do people is that because you are smart you are rich and healthy.

You don't have to be smart to be rich, merely crafty and frequently unscrupulous. There are very few Bill Gates in the world of the rich.

If you are rich you can afford an excellent education, even if you have to bribe your way into a prestigious university because of your personal dismal personal academic record. If you are rich you can afford proper nutrition. The poor don't have those opportunities. I know.

Marvelle

Found this information posted in another SN book discussion: "John D. Rockefeller, Sr. was Andrew Carnegie's peer; perhaps his and Carnegie's are the two names most often associated with great wealth pursuing philanthropy on a large scale.... Rockefeller Senior left a family legacy that now reaches into the fifth generation. Seldom if ever in American history has a single family shown greater philanthropic commitment. Unlike Carnegie, who was a philanthropic entrepreneur and innovator, Rockefeller and his son, John, Jr.... developed the idea of the foundation in its modern form: a large endowment invested so that the income could be used "in perpetuity" to serve general purposes: the well-being of mankind."

The information in the posted link is distressing in that it ignores the Rockefeller Foundation's 'philanthropic' funding of Nazi Germany. It ignores the murder of miners and their families in Rockefeller Sr.'s Colorado coal mines - the mines and railroads were the source of Rockefeller wealth - and how the Rockefeller family/Foundation never compensated the surviving family members or acknowledged culpability. [Upton Sinclair picketed Rockefeller's New York home in protest of the murders.]

The posted link ignores how and under what conditions the Rockefeller Foundation currently dispenses money. Poor people don't consider the RF to be philanthropic.

Okay, so now I'll get off my soapbox. It just saddens me to see how the history of a person like Rockefeller is whitewashed merely because they have money which in the U.S. means power. There are other people we can admire without settling for false idols.

Marvelle

But the more money you have, the more likely you are to be in better health, since you will have doctors, dentists,etc. Poverty tends to stunt many developing areas. If you have caring parents anyway, that try to encourage you, this will help enormously. The children in school that struggle the hardest are the ones with no background in language,books,verbal skills. My d-i-l taught ADHD for years. She said she could predict whether her children would get better by whether the parents or more likely parent cared enough to talk to her about their child.

I agree Stephanie. It is money, not intelligence, that is the driving force in this society (alas).

I believe, along with Shaw and Lynn Truss, that education, however one can grasp it, is key to improving one's lot in life and, even if not improving your own lot, that of future generations of your family.

Marvelle

Marvelle:

I posted information of studies I have read. I used Rockefeller as a reference because I am 82 and we used to sing a song with the words in it - as "rich as Rockefeller". No other reason.

Education in this country is free, and one may avail themselves of it if so inclined. Libraries are free, and one may read to his/her heart's content if one is inclined.

A person knows if one is smart. And knows what to do about it. Many poor but smart immigrants have come to the U. S. in search of a better opportunity and through hard work - honest, manual, and poor-paying have become rich because they were frugal, did without, and saved until such time as they could make a better investment.

There are many variables in what allows a person to succeed. I had no intention of declaring an infallible pronouncement, but merely identifying what one should seek in aiming toward such a goal. First, of all, is a positive attitude and not suspecting another of criminal behavior if he/she succeeds. It can be done without.

Here's a title that you both might enjoy reading, "The Prize" by Daniel Yergin. Its the history of the oil industry, here in the US and around the world. Very interesting book! And, yes, Rockefeller figures very large in the tale.

Another philanthropist was Henry Ford. Was it him or J.D. Rockefeller who taught sunday school?? Something must have sparked these folks interest in owing something to this country and to their maker and I believe that they passed this down to their families.

Ann Alden:

Thank you. I have made a note of it.

I have begun to read histories more in recent years, and they are fascinating. Right now, I am reading, "The American Black Chamber" about cryptography during WWI by Herbert O. Yardley. It is not an easy book for me to read, but it is an interesting period of our history, and it seems to take care of the cryptographical explanations. I have decided these people are especially gifted to do such work.

MeriJo: Cryptography sounds like a fascinating topic to read about. I've read some articles recently about Silas Deane, a Connecticut representative to America's 1st Continental Congress and 1st American agent sent to France to secretly negotiate deals for financial & military aid. Deane was joined by Ben Franklin and Arthur Lee. Deane was recalled for war profiteering and was later accused of treason.

All of our revolutionary agents and ministers to France wrote letters to Congress in secret code. Unfortunately, Edward Bancroft, secretary to Deane, Franklin, and Arthur, was a British spy. For years Bancroft intercepted American ministers' letters and passed on information to the British ministry using secret code and invisible ink.

Silas Deane may have known something about Bancroft's activities. It appears that in 1789, just as Silas Deane was going to sail home from London to try to clear his name, he died mysteriously, very possibly poisoned by Bancroft who was an expert in South American jungle poisons. Bancroft was never caught. The truth of his spying wasn't disclosed until 1891.

I wouldn't call Henry Ford a philanthropist concerning his history and what he "gave" money for.

I'll look for "The Prize". Thanks.

Marvelle

Small frustration here. I read McMurtry's "Boone's Lick" (quite good) and learned the fictional Cecil family is based on a real family of 19th century haulers and freighters. If the Cecil family is truly like the original, I would greatly love to know more about them. Unfortunately, the jacket info. never names them. I have a clue I can track down. One of the daughters of the fictional family became quite proficient in the Sioux language, and was widely used in parleys between the Indians and the government. She led a highly unconventional life and if there was such a person, I definitely want to read her story.

Babi

Click Here for more information on “Madam Secretary” by Bill Woodward mentioned in message #278 above by Potshard.

Regarding the correlation between intelligence and wealth, in my experience the smart genius level people I have known seem to have a way of rising to the top. I suppose the real injustice is the fact that the financial success of an ancestor is allowed to assure riches five generations later. This assures the perpetuation an undeserving privileged class. Also educational and social opportunities are far more available to the rich than to the poor.

Does anyone know of recent books documenting studies on the correlation between Intelligence and Wealth?

Harold, some smart genius types, like Bill Gates, do rise to wealth but it wasn't intelligence that led to the rise of Rockefeller Sr. but rather craftiness and unscrupulousness.

During the time of R Sr - and others who became rich - it was the assumption that the ends justified the means in business. Also, not only did business have the power but the assumed right to do everything possible to secure and increase wealth. Even judges of the time ruled that "what's good for business is good for the country" and they reasoned that if good-for-business meant threats, beatings or murders of strikers or protesters or the opposition, well, it was good for the country after all and therefore legally sanctioned.

There was a token inquiry into the murders of striking miners and their families in R. Sr's Colorado coal mines and one of the questions put to R. Sr was "did you or would you order the machine gunning of men, women, and children?".

Rockefeller's answer was "I'll do whatever is necessary for the good of my business."

A chilling mindset and one prevalent among business. This doesn't denote intelligence or genius, merely debased morality and blind self-interest.

The cream did not rise to the top in such affairs and it wasn't intelligence that gave the Rockefeller's their wealth but rather unscrupulousness.

Marvelle

Harold Arnold:

Last fall, a book by John Steele Gordon was published that delineated the rise of the United States into a definitive economic nation.

It is called, "An Empire Of Wealth", "The Epic History of American Economic Power." It is carefully researched and the good aspects and the bad aspects of that rise is presented well.

From the book jacket flap:. . . this is a story full of euphoria and disaster, daring and timidity, great men and utter fools. From the Revolution to the Great Depression to the Internet era and the turn of the millenium, John Steele Gordon captures as never before the true source of our nation's global influence.

John Steele Gordon is a financial historian, and here he has managed to please, educate and entertain. It is an easy read.

Click Here for “An Empire of Wealth; The Epic History of American Economic Power, ” by John Steel Gordon mentioned by merijo in #291 above. Also one or two ot the titles mentioned on the “people who bought this book, also bought----” list might also touch the subject. From the publisher’s description this might provide some discussion on the correlation of intelligence and economic success.

My comment yesterday were drawn from my work experience limited to two related professional fields where long formal education and training are required. Obviously a high IQ is meaningless when it applies to a 14 million dollar NBA contract, and personality and individual drive and dedication also are variables complicating the equation. Finally high intelligence and great managerial and leadership ability does not always accompany high moral ethics as was observed by Marvelle in #290 with the Rockefeller and other historical examples. Further individual personality and the degree of passion that different individuals are willing to devote to achieving elevated goals differ widely enabling lower IQ’ed individuals to often surpass their higher-endowed competition.

Thank you Harold Arnold for your post above. I did read the link, and there are some ineresting books listed there that I think I would like to read. I have read Ron Chernow's "Alexander Hamilton." What a great writer, he is, too.

I just read Chernow's Alexander Hamilton this spring. My husband gave it to me for Christmas. What a terrific present. I enjoyed the book so much. What a wonderful writer Chernow is to bring Hamilton so alive. He shows what a brilliant, charismatic, unbelievably energetic and prolific man Hamilton was, despite his human flaws. What a tremendous role he played in the creation of our nation. I was really immersed in his story. I cried and was drained from the tragedy of his death in the duel with Aaron Burr. I will never forget the description of William Bayard, a director of the Bank of New York, sobbing when he saw Hamilton lying so badly wounded in the bottom of the boat as it came ashore from Weehawken. When I went on the Patriot Trail tour in NYC in May, we visited Trinity Church to see Hamilton's grave. There were many people there. He is buried right next to Robert Fulton.

I just finished several biographies of Thomas Jefferson and am now reading a couple of biographies of James Madison to get a broader picture of that period when our country moved to a stronger central govt. with the creation of the Constitution and the resulting battles between the Federalists and the Republicans. Fascinating.

Click Here for information about Alexander Hamilton- by Ron Chernow; This is the title mention in recent posts by Merijo and Marni. It seems to be quite a tome, totaling over 800 pages.

Hamilton through his design of our first monetary and financial system has certainly left a profound legacy to the United States the effects of which remain even today. Arguably his legacy was as great or greater than that of his rival, Jefferson.

The first chapter of the Joseph J Ellis book Founding Brothers- The Revolutionary Generation gives an account of the duel between Burr and Hamilton that resulted in Hamilton’s death.

The Ellis, Founding brothers book was first published in 2000 and is now available in the paperback edition linked above. It contains some dozen-chapter length stories about our founders and details of specific key nation building events in which they participated. In Addition to the Hamilton-Burr duel, one of the most interesting was a story of a New York dinner in which Hamilton and Jefferson and other key participants agreed on a compromise resulting in the passage of Hamilton’s Financial plan and the location of a new national permanent capitol later to be known as Washington, DC.

While searching the B&N site for the Founding Brothers book, I stumbled on another similar title that I had not Know of before. It is Founding Mothers- The Women Who Raised Our Nation, by none other than Cokie Roberts. It was published in Feb, 2005. Considering the author’s current prominence as a news woman, I am surprised it has not received more publicity. Have any of you heard anything about it on C-SPAN or other book Channels?

I just read Cokie Roberts' Founding Mothers in April after a friend advised me to read it. I enjoyed it very much. It gives the woman's viewpoint of our Revolution. The book is filled with a series of fairly brief stories about wives, mothers, sisters, etc of famous founding fathers. To me, the most fascinating is about Gouverneur Morris' wife, Anne (Nancy) Randolph. She was involved in what was called the greatest scandal of the 18th century. The story goes that she got pregnant by her brother in law when engaged to his brother. (They all lived in the same house.) Then supposedly she gave birth to the baby and her brother in law killed it. Slaves found the body behind the woodpile. Her brother in law was arrested, put on trial, and was defended by Patrick Henry. (He got off in "the trial of the century.") Later, Nancy was accused of murdering her brother in law and her sister kicked her out of the house. She wandered from place to place, destitute, possibly finally prostituting herself while living in New York City. Finally, for assistance, she contacted Gouverneur Morris ("the rake who wrote the Constitution"), apparently a confirmed wealthy bachelor in his 50's. (His family was anticipating inheriting his money.) He asked Nancy to be his housekeeper and she accepted. Within the year, they were married. His family created all kinds of trouble afterward trying to get his money. When she got pregnant by Morris, his family claimed she had had an affair with a servant whose child it was. What a story!!

By the way, recently Cokie Roberts was interviewed on TV to discuss her book. I think it was on regular network TV.

Cokie was all over C-span2 BookTV back in early Spring of this year, talking about her book. Go to:

http://www.booktv.org/

and look for links to older programs. I don't know that any of her appearances were archived, but they might be.

It's books, books, books, every weekend on C-span2, from after midnight on Friday, all day Saturday and Sunday. This holiday weekend will include Monday too. Check that same site for what's on and when. The books featured are always non fiction, although some panel discussions feature fiction writing as well.

Thank you Marni and Howzat for your comments on "Founding Mothers." I will now be on a two day holiday but will be back Mondy evening or Tuesday morning.

Everyone have a happy and safe 4th of July holiday!

I just finished watching a 3 hour interview by Bryon Lamb with Shelby Foote, I believe in 2001..........about his books "The Civil War, a narrative" .........he was so articulate and had that wonderful Mississippi accent I could have listend on for hours.......His ending statements about being raised in a black culture and by blacks in the Mississippi was indeed something to hear.......My grandmother was raised in the Mississippi Delta in much the same way.......hope some of you were able to watch it and will remark on it as well.......Have any of you read the books? If so would like your comments on them.

I too watched the interview and was saddened by the fact that he passed away just last week. What a sweet and articulate author! I was able to see 2.5 hours and loved every minute. I have not read his Civil War books and I understand that they are very long. That one caller said it took him a year to read the trilogy. Also, I didn't know that he wrote fiction. Must try one of those. We lived in Atlanta for 18 years so I just loved listening to his accent. Made me homesick for Georgia. Although it was slightly different, it was "southern". Hmmmmm!

GEORGIA is, I believe, the most 'southern' of the Southern States. I had a brother-in-law from Georgia, married a New York gal and moved up there. Twenty-five years later his accent was still pure 'Georgia'. It's unmistakeable.

Babi

Those regional dialects are quite something.......Mississippi and West Viginia are very distinct I believe........I know and older couple from Mississippi that can hardly be understood by husband......I too was very sorry to hear of Mr. Foote's death.....

I attended a seminar in Atlanta a number of years ago. Had a wonderful time and visited some great sites including the Coca Cola Museum and Stone Mountain. I bought my husband a Stone Mountain t-shirt which he wore to a Board of Education meeting. Another of the Board members was offended by his shirt. I found out later Stone Mountain was a meeting place of the Ku Klux Klan; my husband was told he never should have worn the shirt to the Board meeting. I was so surprised!!

They met in Kokomo, Indiana. Does that mean I can't visit my relatives there?? I certainly hope not. No way could your husband have known that the shirt was offensive.

Marni , it is true you would have no way of knowing the shirt was offensive to some.....as most anything today can be! Stone Mountain is a very popular tourist attraction which is visited by thousands every year.........It's the same with the confederate flag....I thought Shelby Foote's feelings about the flag were most interesting and thought provoking........Seems it is pretty hard these days not to offend someone............

I love Stone Mountain and truthfully you can name almost any big site in the south and you will find the Klan at some period or another. Seems as if your husband managed to find sort of an obnoxious individual interested in embarassing others. I have little or no patience as I get older with that sort of hypersensitivity.. Live and learn and relax about it is my theory.

My feelings exactly Stephanie.......Live and let live and for heaven's sake get rid of the chips on the shoulders!

I was fortunate to see the three hour interview of Shelby Foote by Brian Lamb. To my mind Shelby Foote as a student. researcher and author of the Civil War qualified as a " national treasure". It is almost impossible to believe however is a fact all his writings in longhand with a dip pen. For us " word processors" the dip pen represents time past,another world.

Someone suggested I read Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond. I don't remember who suggested it. But I noticed that something about it is going to be on public TV tonight at 10:00 p.m. EST (CPTV in Connecticut.)

Amazon blurb about the book: "Explaining what William McNeill called The Rise of the West has become the central problem in the study of global history. In Guns, Germs, and Steel Jared Diamond presents the biologist's answer: geography, demography, and ecological happenstance. Diamond evenhandedly reviews human history on every continent since the Ice Age at a rate that emphasizes only the broadest movements of peoples and ideas. Yet his survey is binocular: one eye has the rather distant vision of the evolutionary biologist, while the other eye--and his heart--belongs to the people of New Guinea, where he has done field work for more than 30 years."

GG&S is a wonderful book - and I'm sure I have recommended it several times. I saw that the program was going to be on. We'll probably tape it while we're watching, so we can get the whole series (6 programs?) on tape. I think it's going to be on here Tuesday night, but I'll check to be sure.

Click Here for Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies By Jared Diamond from the B&N catalog. I note that part 1 of the 3 part PBS, TV program is also scheduled on our KLRN channel for 10:00 PM central this evening. I suggest you check your local TV guide for time as I have observed PBS Stations frequently set their own schedules.

It was on tonight in our market. And the program was quite well done - stayed right with the book. We're looking forward to the other two episodes.

I thought tonight's program was really interesting. I had heard theories that advanced civilizations developed when people were able to settle the land and grow food enabling them to have leisure time to think and create. But I hadn't heard the theory about how having a geography with naturally growing protein-rich grains, such as wheat, easy to grow in abundance and to store, gave the people of the fertile crescent a head start. Very interesting seeing the comparison to the people of New Guineau. I'm going to have to read the book.

I just finished (finally) reading Ketcham's biography of James Madison. After reading so much about the Revolution and some interesting bios of founding fathers, I wanted to find out about Madison. He was like this mystery person to me. Ketcham's bio was the only one in the library, so I grabbed it. It is definitely not like reading a David McCullough bio! A lot of it was pretty tedious. I read reader reviews on Amazon and had to laugh. They are right on. But I had to keep pluggin away at the book. Interesting to see how, even though he did so much to establish our country's footing, he was not very good at the job of being president of the US. He was a thinker, someone who saw many sides to any situation. It seems to have made it difficult for him to make quick decisions which can be necessary for a president. Also, it seems he wasn't very good at selecting people for his cabinet - not exactly a Washington in that category. The sour-looking portrait on the book cover seems to express one side of his personality unfortunately. Well, it was interesting reading about his life. I'd like to find a better bio of him. Any suggestions?

Last month we had a short Book Review in the Extra.

We would like to have another for this July 15th Extra.
A short 1 or 2 paragraphs,
about a book you would recommend (or even not recommend),
fiction, non-fiction, mystery, biography, sci-fi, romance, or -----
Reviews may be sent to BookBytes@seniornet.org by late July 14th or very early July 15th

this book by Gerald Posner was very sobering to me........It is about how the government was handling the terrorist thread for about 10 or 12 years up to 9/11.....a very good read...........and of course timely..........I have my name on a very long list for 1776.

I read in at least one source that Benjamin Franklin's illegitimate son William was imprisoned in Old Newgate Prison in Granby, CT (Simsbury at that time) during the Revolution. Old Newgate Prison, originally a copper mine, was turned into a prison for criminals, British prisoners, and Loyalists. I visited the prison last weekend (FABULOUSLY INTERESTING PLACE!!) and the attendants said no, they were quite sure Franklin had not been a prisoner there. They weren't sure where in CT he had been imprisoned - possibly in Litchfield. I haven't been able to find where he was kept, although I read he was a prisoner in CT for two years, in solitary confinement, lost his hair and his teeth.

Does anyone know where he was in prison? Thanks.

marni, here's a site that I found by putting "william franklin prison connecticut" in google.

http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/new_jersey/bill_franklin.htm

This son was an interesting character who as the last Royal Governor of New Jersey remained steadfastly loyal to the crown, another example of a family broken by revolution. In the end there was a partial reconciliation. as on his death Ben left William land in Canada and fogave debts owed him but left him no money; as he said in the will, the same as he would have received had England won the war.

There are many good biographies of Ben Franklyn currently available beginning with his auto-biography and including two published a few years ago that we discussed in 2003.

Mary Z: Thanks for the site. I had looked up Litchfield prison, jail, William Franklin, etc. I couldn't find anything about Franklin in jail or prison in Litchfield on the web. It's so strange. When I visited Old Newgate Prison, they told me that Old Newgate was the first "state prison" in America. It was the first "prison" in CT. They said that Franklin would have been in a "jail" or other place, not a "prison." But I can't find anything about an old Litchfield "jail" or "prison" or William Franklin in Litchfield.

Wasn't that a sad story about the Franklins? His dad got him the job of New Jersey governor, after all. I've read some unpleasant things about Ben Franklin here and there. One thing was that he (as well as others) tried to steal credit for John Fitch's invention of the steamboat. I have no idea if that is true. But I do know that Fitch spent a great deal of time fighting in the courts over the rights to the invention of the steamboat. And Fitch got the patent. He ended up committing suicide over it all.

Franklin was not among the initial patriots ready to break the ties with England. In fact through the 1750’s to the early 1770's most of his time was spent in London representing the colonies there. As early as 1755 at a at the close of an Albany conference with the Iroquois, he proposed to the other colonies a plan for self government that was quickly rejected London, but which some 80 years later became essentially the form for the first self government of Canada.

From his post In London Franklin remained loyal as he continued to lobby for a reasonable Colonial self government plan. He joined independence group in the early 1770's after Parliament emphatically rejected his last attempt to obtain reasonable self-government. This rejection included personal insults of Franklin and he immediately left England to return to America where he was an enthusiastic supporter of Independence

My favorite Franklin biography is the 2003 release by Walter Isaacson Click Here but there is another good recent title by James Strodes. Also there are many more Franklin biographies currently in print leading me to the conclusion that he is the most popular of the founding fathers among biographers.

Perusing "Olmstead's America" which has much history in it that I have never heard before. For instance, did you know that Frederick Olmstead was the Secretery of Sanitation during the Civil War, or that he was the first person to urge uniforms and cleanliness for the Union Soldiers. Or, that he saved and restored old ships to be used for transportating the injured men to the hospitals along the rivers near the battles?? Or that he had a partner, Veux, when he proposed the design of Central Park and that Veux was sued by another landscape designer for stealing his idea for Central Park?? Did you know that Olmstead was the first person to suggest that we save our national lands as parks, citing Yosemite as a natural wonder??

Ann Alden:

It is just great to read histories that give space and time to human interests and abilities such as Olmstead's time. I think when we were kids in school our teachers - or the powers that be (I once served on a social studies book selection committee for our county.)- just selected books that highlighted events that appeared to be significant at the time. Also, I think they considered the length of the school year, and if the text could be covered in that period. I know we were given supplementary reading suggestions, but few took the time to read them since they were voluntary usually. There were just too many other things to do.

I have read several books like that recently and what a pleasure! Now, I am reading, "Against the Gods", "The Remarkable History of Risk." by Peter Bernstein. He does begin at the beginning of calculations and writes in a lively manner, I think, about early ideas in a mathematical mode and how it took generations from one thought to the next forward-moving thought. I would never have had an inkling of things like that without reading this book.

MeriJo:-That is one of the things I like in The Story of Civilization. Durant "gives space and time to human interests and abilities."

Robby

Robby:

I have noticed the inclusion of so many more details in Durant's "Story of Civilization" than one would find in a textbook-like history. That is what he does!

Harold: I think I'll have to read that biography of Franklin.

You had mentioned that you may again lead a discussion of your favorite book about the Lewis and Clark expedition. I'm just reading "William Clark and the Shaping of the West" by Landon Y. Jones. I just love it! It focuses on the life of Clark and his family and acquaintances, not just the expedition. The book is not huge, but it is totally crammed with the most interesting tidbits of information. What an extraordinary person and what a thrilling life. It's like a Larry McMurtry novel except it's true. One little tidbit: Clark named one of his sons Meriwether Lewis Clark, who in turn named one of his sons Meriwether Lewis Clark, Jr. This Jr. founded Churchill Downs and the Kentucky Derby. Also, like the original Meriwether Lewis, he committed suicide.

Ann: Olmstead seems to be in the news lately. I was pleasantly surprised to find he was from Hartford, CT.

Yes, I am learning more now than I was given in school but I must support my favorite world history teacher who just told stories to us when she came to an event, with asides of almost gossip, as if she knew the truth of what happened in each instance. We hung on her every word and she gave me a love for history that I never let go.

Have you read Alexander Thom's title, "From Sea to Shining Sea"?? Another history crammed book but written fictionally. Different!

In The Story of Civilization we are now discussing the creation of what is now known as the nation of England. Some folks here might be interested in this.

Robby

In 1853-54 Frederick Law Olmsted made a saddle trip through Texas from Louisiana to San San Antonio and side trips through the Hill country and coast. At the time the total population of the state was about 200,000 living in a third world economy. Olmsted traveled by horse through East Texas stopping each night at a different farm house where he was fed a diet of corn bread, beans, okra and bacon. He had nothing good to say of the experience until he reached the German settlements in Central Texas. There he raved about the wheat yeast bread at New Braunfels. He also liked San Antonio that had a large German population as well as the old Spanish base. He was impressed by the water system- the old 18th century gravity system of ditches bring water along the major streets from the river and San Pedro creek..

My copy of the book is a 1962 edition, “Journey Through Texas- A Saddle Trip On the Southwestern Frontier,” by Frederick Law Olmsted, edited by James Howard and published by Von Boeckmann-Jones Press, Austin. Apparently this hard cover edition is now out of print but Click Here for a current edition in the B&N catalog with the usual notes and comments

I will post further comments on my plans for Lewis and Clark this evening when I have more time to look up B&N links to some recent primary source publications that I read last year. I will definitely offer another L&C discussion next year. I was all set to do the 200th anniversary commemoration in May last year but delayed when the new WW II Memorial dedication gave me the opportunity for for the WW II Commemoration around the “Last Escape” discussion.

It don’t have to be the Ambrose, “Undaunted Courage” title that technically is a biography of Captain Lewis. Since Lewis died just a few years after the return from the pacific the book is mostly on the trek to the pacific. I suppose a Clark biography would have more later post trek material covering Clark’s long later career. I will get the book mentioned above. In any case I intend to offer a L&C title in Aug-Sept, 2006 commemorating the 200th anniversary of the return and I will add more about L&C sources this evening.

Having just returned from Oregon and following along some of the trails of L&C, I was under the notion that the Celebration of the expedition opens in October this year and runs 'til Oct 2006? Is that right? We did get to see and feel a little of L&C's trail and enjoyed the history that went with it.

Here's an excellent site of links to all sorts of different L&C information. L&C Celebrations

Harold: I visited the World War II Memorial in D.C. in September. It is such an impressive and beautiful memorial!!! It just brought tears to my eyes. It certainly does "the greatest generation" proud.

The kick-off date when the expedition set sail from their winter quarter is given in several Journals as as May 14 1804. The return to St Louis was Sept 23, 1806. I don't know why the official celebration was set for Oct 2005 through Oct 2006, but I have no particular problem with the yearlong finale celebration.

I had originally intended to do the discussion in May 2004 the 200th anniversary of the month of the departure date, but when the WW II opportunity came I somehow thought it took precedent and postponing L&C to the end which I felt would be equally appropriate as a commemoration of the 200th anniversary. Actually I have the discussion scheduled for August 2006 since I like to leave the fall months of September and October open for possible travel.

Two years ago several of the National Park Rangers at our San Antonio Missions National Historical Park took transfers to the new Lewis And Clark Trail Park Project. I saw one of them here last winter with a small but significant traveling display of exhibits from the L&C project

Those of you who like me have not seen the WW II War Memorial can Click Here for 8 high resolution architect's drawings.

The WWII memorial is located on the Mall between the Lincoln monument and the Washington monument. The WWII memorial is a large oval setting the width of the Mall, made up of a big pool with high spouting fountains surrounded by granite monuments, each commemorating a state or territory of the US. Beautiful large granite monuments at either end of the oval commemorate the Atlantic and the Pacific war venues, with the names of the main war arenas and their major battles carved in stone around small fountains. These two large monuments are seating areas with domed roofs supported by columns and with huge brass eagles above the seats near the ceiling. Here and there around the large pool are carved famous sayings by wartime leaders such as Churchill and FDR. Brass friezes depicting wartime activities, such as a landing craft unloading soldiers onto a beach, line the stairs leading down to the pool.

It was very moving to be there. Everywhere I looked were veterans of WWII looking for friezes, carvings, or monuments representing their part of the war. Many walked with canes or walkers, or were in wheelchairs. There aren't too many WWII vets left, and it was so good to see the vets examining the memorial honoring them.

The book I mentioned, William Clark and the Shaping of the West, has some very startling and even shocking information. I just got to the part where Clark read in the newspaper that Lewis was dead. He killed himself by slitting his throat. Man. And Clark is cruel to his slaves and seems to beat or whip them often. This book is an eye-opener.

Harold: This book cites the following dates: It says L&C reached St. Louis on Sept. 23, 1806, (according to Clark's journal. Clark wrote in his journal almost daily. Lewis very seldom wrote in his.) They left St. Louis on Oct. 21 for Washington. Two weeks later, they reached Louisville, Clark's home. On Nov. 11, Lewis left and went home for Christmas near Charlottesville, VA. Lewis reached Washington on Dec. 28; Clark arrived some time later - doesn't say exactly.

The only October date mentioned is the date they left St. Louis to head towards Washington.

If you look at the links, you will find that my October dates were wrong. I believe that November is mentioned as the beginning of the celebration. I can't remember from one site to another. Pardone moi!

Harold, I wonder if perhaps October was when the success of the exploration was officially celebrated in Washington, honors awarded, etc. I assume they could have gotten from St. Louis to Washington before the end of October, based on the dates Marni gave. I would think surely celebrations were planned for their arrival. That would make October an appropriate time to begin the year-long L&C commemorations.

Babi

It really doesn't matter when all of the Bicentenial events start, the states of Washington and Oregon are celebrating the expedition's history this year and next. There are other states' exhibits--the states that the expedition traveled through on their way to and from. Some of the different exhibits are extensive and I wish they would bring some to my state of Ohio. The "Discover II" is one of them--with their own huge white tent. Traveling the involved states, these folks are really giving the public a wonderful tast of this history of our country's exploration and settling of the Northwest.

Harold

Thanks for the info on Olmstead's visit to Texas. Was your family there at that time? I seem to think that they were.

I read in my William Clark book a few more pages and found that Meriwether Lewis did NOT slit his throat. That was just what the newspaper reported - the one Clark read. Lewis shot himself.

According to the book I'm currently reading, L&C did not make it to Washington in October. They didn't get there until after the Christmas holiday. Jefferson had a celebration dinner planned, I believe - probably in January. Harold: you probably know. Clark did not make it to Washington on time for this dinner because he was visiting with his family.

In Nov of 2003 I prepared and linked a Lewis and Clark bibliography listing primary and secondary sources for information about the Lewis and Clark expedition. This afternoon I revised it to add the William Clark Biography mentioned by Marni in message #326. and the John Ordway Journal that I had left out of the original. Aside from the fact that the Clark Biography has over 700 pages (a tad longer than most of our discussion books), it would make a fine discussion vehicle for a dedicated group. Perhaps some of you might be interested in some preliminary reading particularly of the primary sources. Last year I read the Journals of the enlisted men (Sergeants, Gass, Ordway and Floyd) and Private Whitehouse and feel they are worth the effort. If any one knows of other Lewis and Clark Books that should be added please post the information here. Click Here to access the Bibliography.

Harold: I just read the bibliography. Thanks! The book I am reading, William Clark and the Shaping of the West by Landon Y. Jones, is only 334 pages, not including bibliography. It probably is not the best selection for this project because it focuses on Clark and does not go into great detail of the entire L&C expedition.

Have you seen, by any chance, the book that was put together by Nicholas Biddle, based on the journals of both Lewis and Clark. It's called History of the Expedition under the Command of Captains Lewis and Clark. After Lewis died, Clark pulled together all of the journals they had kept of the expedition and gave them to Biddle. Biddle reviewed and edited everything over a period of about two years, meeting extensively with Clark (even staying with him for weeks) discussing the material, asking extensive questions, to make the works into a book to be published. He continued to mail questions to Clark as he continued to work on the book in the east. Finally, Biddle ran out of time. He passed on the book to Paul Allen to finish its publication. Biddle had signed a printing contract with Bradford & Inskeep. Allen solicitated a "biographical sketch" of Lewis from Thomas Jefferson, which he included in the book. Jefferson said he was not familiar enough with Clark to be able to do the same for him, so no sketch of Clark was included.

According to Landon Jones, fewer than 1500 copies were published of the two-volume set, priced at $6.

I saw on the web that both volumes are available in their entirety through the Library of Congress as either text or images. (Is this available online?) Here are some links:

Search the Library of Congress

http://www.booksamillion.com/ncom/books?pid=1582187029&ad=FGLBKS

http://www.moesbooks.com/cgi-bin/moe/36072.html

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-1131753887-0

It's interesting to me to see that Lewis is credited as the author in the Library of Congress. Maybe that is how the book is published.

Guns, Germs, and Steel Part 2 is on PBS tonight at 10:00 pm for anyone who is interested.

Marni

Thanks for the reminder.. I saw Part 1 - Guns ...............

Harold: I just read one of the sites I mentioned just previously a bit more carefully. It's regarding the availability of a set of the Lewis and Clark History edited by Nicholas Biddle. It's on sale for $60,000! It certainly looks like a find, though.

http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=1-1131753887-0

Marni

Harold: Don't mean to be a pest about this, but I'm excited at something I just found. You CAN view the Biddle History online at the Library of Congress!! Here's the link:

http://frontiers.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfsplash.html

Once you get to the Library of Congress Meeting of Frontiers site through the link, click on the map and Exploration of the West links. You get to a Lewis and Clark link. You have to click on a number of them until you get to the actual works. It is very cool!!!

I found out this info on the following link:

http://www.americanjourneys.org/aj-100a/summary/index.asp

Marni

This message, with the long URL is making the text go waaay off to the right. Can someone fix this? Remove the message, or resize the URL? Sheesh. I hate to have to scroll, and fix window doesn't help.

Thanks.

Whoops. I see we have flipped to a new page and the text now fits the screen. Whew. I'm glad about that.

Howzat: I was having the same trouble. And trying to review my comments wasn't so easy. Thanks for speaking up about it. I wonder what happened.

#344 has been repaired

I too had problems with the display of Message 344 yesterday but blamed my machine. Fortunately I did not have time to waste working on it, and Pat seems to have it corrected now.

marni If I was at all aware of the Biddle publication of the L & C journals it was only through occasional brief reference in modern books. The links you gave in message 344 indicate it is extremely rare. If I am interpreting one of them correctly it advertises a copy for sale for $60.000. A search on Amazon,com indicated other copies for sale at a lower price. I was not able to find reference to the Biddle book from the link you gave in message 348.

Harold: The copy of the book on sale was rare. Apparently, one of the reasons was that it contained the map published in the original. I guess many of those few remaining copies don't contain the map.

I'm going to try to type the path from the site mentioned in #348 - the path of links to get you to the Biddle History on the Library of Congress site. I'm reading the first volume. In the beginning is Thomas Jefferson's "sketch" of Meriwether Lewis. This book is supposed to be the official report relating the experiences of the Corps of Discovery.

Here's the path:

Click on: http://frontiers.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfsplash.html (That's the first link on #348.)

This gets you to: http://frontiers.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfsplash.html (You should see a "Meeting of the Frontiers page with a picture of a map.)

Then click on either the map or the word Enter.

This gets you to: http://frontiers.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfhome.html
(You should see a "Meeting of the Frontiers" "About the Project" page with three pictures at the top. One picture has the words "America, Russia, and the Meeting of the Frontiers" under it.)

Click on this picture. It gets you to:
http://frontiers.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfovrvw.html
(You should see an "America, Russia, and the Meeting of Frontiers" page with six pictures at the top.)

Click on the picture that says "Exploration" under it. It gets you to: http://frontiers.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfdiscvry/mfdiscv.html
(You should see the "Exploration" page.)

At the top of the page you should see the selections: The Russian Discovery of Siberia | Exploration of the American West | The Russian North | Exploration and Science.

Click on "Exploration of the American West." This gets you to: http://frontiers.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfdiscvry/discamer.html
(You should see the "Exploration of the American West" page which displays a timeline of events about exploration in the West.)

On the left hand side of this page you should see a list of options under the word "Gallery."

Click on "Lewis and Clark." This gets you to: http://frontiers.loc.gov/intldl/mtfhtml/mfdiscvry/igdlewis.html
(You should see the "Lewis and Clark" page.

Scroll down towards the bottom of this page. You should see some pictures, including pictures of Lewis and Clark. The bottom right hand side picture is that of a page of the Biddle book. The words under this picture are: "History of the Expedition under the Command of Captains Lewis and Clark, by Meriwether Lewis, 1814. LC Rare Book Collection."

Click on these words underneath the picture. This gets you to: http://frontiers.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?intldl/mtfront:@field+(NUMBER+@band(mtfrb+01477a)): (You should see two pictures of the pages from Volume 1 and Volume 2 of the Biddle book.)

Click on the picture that says "Volume 1" under it. This gets you to: http://frontiers.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtfrb&fileName=01477b//mtfrb01477b.db&recNum=0&itemLink=r?intldl/mtfront:@field(NUMBER+@od1(mtfrb+01477b) (&linkText=0&presId=mtfront (You should see the map that is the beginning of Volume 1.)

You are now in the book History of the Expedition under the Command of Captains Lewis and Clark. This is the official report submitted to the US government relating the experiences of the Corps of Discovery.

You can maneuver around by click on NEXT PAGE or type in the page you want in the box provided and submit.

Harold: The most important links are on #348.

Currently, you can just click on the following link to get directly to the first page of Vol. 1 of the book:

http://frontiers.loc.gov/cgi-bin/ampage?collId=mtfrb&fileName=01477b//mtfrb01477b.db&recNum=0&itemLink=r?intldl/mtfront: @field(NUMBER+@od1(mtfrb+01477b))&linkText=0&presId=mtfront

I don't know how long this will remain the link. If you follow my path above, you can see a lot of other interesting stuff.

The 2nd link I gave on #348 is: http://www.americanjourneys.org/aj-100a/summary/index.asp

This has some terrific information and GREAT links for L&C stuff!!

Marni

Haroald: My 2nd to last link in the long path I gave in #353 is not working. I tried to edit it, but had trouble with my computer and couldn't edit it on time. Here is what you should link to when you click on the words under the picture of the Biddle History page.

http://frontiers.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?intldl/mtfront:@field+(NUMBER+@band(mtfrb+01477a)):

Hope this works.

Nope. I just tried again. I keep getting a Connect to Internet box up as though my PC won't connect to the web. Weird. The link worked before. At any rate, you should be able to get to the book with the directions.

Good luck!

If you wish to anchor your links so that they do not extend beyond the page go to the Discussions and Chat menu page. At the right is a list of "Info/Help". Go to HTML and click on it. There are directions there for you to shorten your links/urls. I would show you how to do it, but the computer would just show the anchor link.

I just finished the book William Clark and the Shaping of the West by Landon Y. Jones. It was quite depressing. Much of it was about white and Indian relations and how the Indians were cheated and pushed west off their lands. William Clark spent much of his life in charge of Indian affairs for the Missouri territory and the state of Missouri.

Landon states near the end of the book: "In the span of his public life, Clark had been a primary architect of a form of what is now call ethnic cleansing. He personally signed thirty-seven separate treaties with Indian nations, more than anyone in American history. He helped the United States extinguish Indian titles to 419 million acres of land. A total of 81,282 Indians was moved from the eastern United States to the lands west of the Mississippi; thousands more were moved out of Missouri, farther west. His ostensible goal was not the elimination of a people, but rather the acquisition of their land. But the foreseeable consequences were just as devastating. During the years Clark lived in St. Louis, the prosperous frontier town became the leading refugee camp on the continent."

I read that HBO is making a 10-part TV mini-series of McCullough's John Adams.

The McCullough "John Adams" biography could make a good TV series. It sure made a great discussion 5 years ago here on Seniorsnet.

I will add a Lewis & Clark Web Resources section to the Bibliography and include the Library of Congress Links that you posted and discussed here over the past week. Thank you for this information. I will have the Bibliography link added to the Non-fiction heading.

And finding it most rewarding. Just a slow easy going read. He interviewed five of the living presidents who were Carter, Bush, Ford, Reagan and Nixon before 1994 and has put together a different take on these men who made it to the top. I like the way Greene writes and have read several of his books earlier. I especially liked the one about the North Platte Canteen in Iowa during WWII. Quite enjoyable. We also used the books that he and his sister wrote on writing for your grandchildren in a writing class here in the senior center.

You know I posted about "The World Is Flat" and how astounded I was. This book , " China Inc." is fascinating, and all most scary....It is absolutely amazing what China is doing and has been able to accomplish in a very, very, short time......I think I now understand why some say the 21st century will be China's........

Nancy I remember attending a talk by a Methodist Missionary to China way back about 1938 when I was about 11 years old in which he predicted quite accurately the awakening of China. The present awaking may not have been quite as that missionary predicted, but today it is certainly in progress. No question about it by virtue of their great numbers China's influence on the entire world will be felt.

One very great lesson that we in the west can learn from the Chinese is how large masses of population living together elbow to elbow can co-exist in peace and harmony. They have had several thousand years of experience. We particularly in the U.S. have had none and have not shown any great disposition to learn.

I don't know, Harold. For me, it's still too soon after the bloody Communist take-over and 're-education' of China to think of them as 'living together elbow to elbow" in "peace and harmony".

I think we have learned to pretty much give people their privacy, even in public areas, which is one essential for close co-existence. But most of us, I suspect, are still accustomed to the idea of having lots of room in this country. Even if we are living in apartments like a warren of rabbits, we still know we can get in a car and go find open country. That's bound to help.

Babi

We may be riding in Chinese cars before long! It is worrisome that that the U.S. continues to spend and spend and consume and consume and borrow and borrow (lots from China!) and never save or pay off our national debt.....I have read we may never be able to pay off our national debt.......It is a most interesting read.....Well worth the time...........

Being a world power will not be new to the Chinese according to a wonderful article in National Geographic's July 2005 issue and the National Geographic web site. It tells the story of Zheng He (1371-1433), the Chinese Muslim Admiral who, through seven voyages of discovery to the West, helped transform China into the superpower of his time during the Ming Dynasty (1368 - 1644).

"The ships that Zeng He would sail throughout the Indian Ocean would retrace some of the same routes taken by Ibn Battuta, but he would be in huge boats called "junks". He would go to East Africa, Makkah, Persian Gulf, and throughout the Indian Ocean...[When you] speak of the world's first navigators, the names Christopher Columbus or Vasco da Gama flash through a Western mind. Little known are the remarkable feats that Chinese Muslim Zheng He (1371-1433) had accomplished decades before the two European adventurers. The Foundation for Science Technology and Civilisation retraced the route of China’s 15th century admiral, Zheng He, who ranks as perhaps the country’s foremost adventurer. A Muslim and a warrior, Zheng He helped transform China into the region’s, and perhaps the world’s, superpower of his time. In 1405, Zheng was chosen to lead the biggest naval expedition in history up to that time. Over the next 28 years (1405-1433), he commanded seven fleets that visited 37 countries, through Southeast Asia to faraway Africa and Arabia. In those years, China had by far the biggest ships of the time. In 1420 the Ming navy dwarfed the combined navies of Europe.

"Chinese admiral Zheng He commanded a massive fleet of junks during seven epic voyages—the first of which was launched 600 years ago. In service to Ming emperor Zhu Di, Zheng's Treasure Fleet conducted widespread trade and diplomacy throughout the Indian Ocean. His mandate was to enrich the imperial treasury by exacting tribute from leaders of other countries bordering the Indian Ocean, and to solidify their allegiance to China....Seafaring traders from Yemen and other Arabian Peninsula countries did brisk business throughout the Indian Ocean during the Ming period, which lasted from the 14th to the mid-17th centuries. When Zheng set sail in 1405, his fleet was the mightiest of its age. With vessels numbering in the hundreds and crewmen in the tens of thousands, Zheng took to the seas nearly a century before the European age of exploration began in earnest.

"According to local legend, shipwrecked sailors from Zheng's fleet made it to shore [along the Swahili coast of Kenya] and married local women... Hints of past Chinese presence still exist on the island: Local tombs and lion statues have designs that some believe closely resemble those of the Ming era, and bits of Chinese ceramics that have washed ashore decorate the facades of some houses...A Central Asian Muslim by birth who was sympathetic to other religions, Zheng is thought to have been buried at sea after dying on the fleet's seventh and last voyage. A tomb—purportedly empty—stands outside Nanjing, China. It bears an Arabic inscription: "Allahu Akbar" ("God is Great").

http://www.islamfortoday.com/zhenghe.htm

http://www7.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0507/feature2/gallery1.html

most interesting post Marni.......thank you.

I just stumbled onto something on SeniorNet as I was roaming around to see what kinds of discussions were going on. There is a PBS Program Discussion Group where people can set up or join discussions of PBS programs. (Whale Rider and Guns, Germs and Steel were this month's programs.) Well, coincidence!!! There apparently is an upcoming PBS program on Zheng He. I couldn't find the time but it must be soon, maybe next month. Here's what the discussion will be about:

"1421: The Year China Discovered America? presents a journey of adventure and exploration that examines the mystery surrounding the sailing exploits of the legendary Zheng He and the gigantic Ming fleet of treasure junks he commanded for more than 30 years. The Chinese court burned all the records of Zheng He's daring journeys and fabulous achievements, unwittingly creating a remarkable mystery that tantalizes the world 500 years later. Surviving records tell of his voyages to the western oceans, but now, one determined author claims that the lost records tell an even greater tale. Gavin Menzies, a retired British submarine commander, claims he has stumbled across "evidence" that now shows that this extraordinary Chinese fleet was the first to discover America - decades before Columbus."

I got this from the SeniorNet discussion site.

Marni

I am still mulling over all that I read in the China book.....one thing that stands out clearly is that America has got to quit frittering away our most precious resource and that is our children's EDUCATION.......we tinker and argue endlessly about what is and is not a good education.......our schools are not educating our young for the 21st century! Our economy will be based on "knowledge" not physical work........our corporations are sending all those jobs abroad where the physical labor is cheap,....Southeast Asia, China, India, Indonesia, and on and on.........Our business should be about educating engineers, chemist, Dr.'s lawyers , etc.........oh my..

That sounds familiar, MARNI, and I'm fairly confident PBS has shown this before. It was in two parts, as it was rather long, but very interesting and colorful. Do see it if you can.

Babi

It sounds like a "must see" program for me! I just hope I can find out when it is on TV. I hope it is advertised.

I signed up for something really terrific on the web. The History Channel will send you emails of upcoming interesting specials such as the series on Conquerors or the French Revolution. National Geographic magazine provides websites related to their magazine articles. Each of these sites provides interesting stuff such as maps, games to help you learn, articles, pictures, etc.

Does anyone know if PBS provides anything like this for their special programs?

Marni

marni:

"1421" "The Year That The Chinese Discovered America" is a very exciting book to read. Gavin Menzies did a remarkable job of research and documentation. It took him about fifteen years as he traveled to so many places to seek proof of the voyages. The book has photographs and maps. In fact, he identifies the very early maps that were used by the Chinese.

Is the NG article about Zeng He! And here you are, discussing that same article and a new book about China that I have never read. I must go look for it, in my library or in B&N.

At this moment, I am watching a super presentation on C-SPAN featuring Raymond Dobard as co-author of "Hidden in Plain View" which is about quilts and the underground railroad. He's a decent speaker and has certainly interested me in searching out this title at the library. Fascinating information!

I absolutely have to get my hands on this book! Wow! Wouldn't it be an interesting one to discuss!

Marni

On 1421

I found the book and the DVD at my library and have reserved the DVD first. I am 1st on the list! The NG article is quite interesting and has wonderful pictures but I want more! Yes, maybe this would be a good book for a discussion. I will reserve it next week as it is also very available.

Well don't forget that what got this China discussion started is the new book, "China Inc." ! I will never pass up a news article again which concerns China.........the old China is enchanting and mezmerizing but the new China may shake the world.........I should say IS shaking the world...........am now reading '1776" by Mc Coullah

Nancy: I love David McCullough. How are you finding 1776? I'm tempted to buy it. Many of us have read quite a bit about the Revolution and Founding Fathers. Are you finding anything new and interesting?

Marni

Click Here for information on "1776" by David McCullough that was just released by the publisher last May. In the past Ella and I offered his "John Adams" and 3 years ago another DL led a discusion of his "Trueman" Biography. While it might be best to wait until next year when a paper back edition is available the "1776" release wpuld make a good discussion. Ella try to get this title the next time you are at your library, and Nancy perhaps you may post further comments here when you finish reading it..

I too like Mr. McCoullagh's style of writing.........Very easy to follow and reader friendly......I read John Adams and Truman.....This new book is not nearly as long.....I am half way through....I doubt many people realize what our forbears went through for the freedoms we enjoy......I worry that we don't have the desire and the strengths we use to have......that we have become soft......I feel the same way about the WW2 vets......I hope we don't let them all down.......I have just finished the part where the English fled Boston........+

2 days ago the Discovery Channel had 3 programs in a row about phases of the American Revolution up through part of 1977. I stayed up til 1:00 a.m. watching. It was very well done. They kept re-playing the episodes. One program was about events, such as taxation, leading up to the battle at Lexington. Also covered were Washington's tasks that he faced as commander-in-chief early on at the siege of Boston and problems due to lack of gunpowder, untrained soldiers, no navy, etc etc. His New York battles and retreats were covered. The battle of Saratoga was covered. Ticonderoga, Quebec, Arnold....The programs covered quite a lot of territory and were excellent.

I surely hope they continue this series. Has anyone heard anything about it?

I remember one my all time great cartoons published about 1950 in the late and great Saturday Review of Literature Magazine. It showed two 18th century Colonial types outside of Independence Hall in Philadelphia reading a just posted copy of the Declaration of Independence. In the background loomed the great hall tower with its bell ringing out its message of freedom. After completing his reading one of the readers remarked to the other; “its not so much the lack of representation that irked me; it was the tax itself that I rebelled against.”

I am just starting a new non-fiction titled, "Love in the Driest Season" which is about adoptions in Africa and the difficulties for white folks who want to adopt children who are starving.

Also, I just reserved "China, Inc" which was mentioned here by Nancy. Our library has about 15 copies and most are checked out but I am number one on the list.

Also, I just received notice that "1421-the year China Discovered America" is awaiting me at the library.

John picked up a copy of 1421 at the used book store last week. He's about half-way through. I'll see if I can get him to post some impressions here. We're headed out of town for a 3 week trip, so it may not be until after we get home near the end of August.

I have been lurking around this discussion for a while and have read some interesting facts. I finished 1776 a short while ago and found it very interesting. I had not realised that Washington lost so many battles before finally getting it right, even though I had to study Early American History at school in England.

David McCullough always writes in a easily readable style, but I think that this one was one of the best that I have read, certainly educative and like reading a novel.

Geoff.

For those interested in the Revolutionary War let me suggest " Washing tons Crossing" by David Hackett Fischer: a superb academic researcher. One very interesting aspect Fischer details after the battles of Trenton and Princeton is the militias harassment of the British which ultimately drove the British to areas where they had protection from their war ships. Washington initially disapproved of the militia actions ( not ethical war fighting)however he shortly recognized how effective it was and had Continental solders participate in the raids. Fischers research of the battle of Trenton is impressive and in particular the mobile use of Continental artillery.

have you read His Excellency George Washington by Joseph Ellis? I think there is a good chance this title will be offered early next year when a reasonable paperback edition will be available.

Rosalind Franklins, X-ray crystallographs were a major factor in the genetic revolution. Her reseach enabled Watson,Crick and Wilkens enabl to build a model of DNA and where awarded a Noble prize. Franklins critical research was given minor credit, to outright being ignored. There is evidence that her lab/ experiments, studies note book and lab photos of experiments were passed on to Watson and Crick without her knowledge ( via her college, Wilkens) . Franklins, research given the credit it deserved would have qualified her for a Nobel prize. Franklins research photos and details of her virus research with the TMV virus are available via “Google”. Rosalind Franklin, a truly remarkable scientist.

What Potsherd is saying is that even the Nobel Prize selection research is subject to the error of faulty study by the selection committee, in this case likely faulty review of the process through which the subject achievement was made and particularly just what individuals made significant contribution to the research. I guess I’m not surprised and this is quite likely not the only example of a significant contributor being left out of the award..

Harold, I saw a book interview by Brian Lamb(C-Span) with Ellis. I checked out Google regarding Ellis and the books he has authored.

"According to the Boston Globe, Professor Joseph Ellis, a Pulitzer Prize winning professional historian serving on the faculty of Mount Holyoke College has been caught lying. Dr. Ellis received the Pulitzer Prize in 2001 for Founding Brothers: The Revolutionary Generation August 17, 2001, Joe Ellis was suspended for one year without pay. He is scheduled to resume teaching" Harold,I found this to be disturbing: what are your thoughts?

Thomas Paine and the Promise of America

by Harvey J. Kaye Retail Price: $25.00 Our Price: $17.50 Millionaire's Club Price: $15.75 Members Save $9.25 ! (37%)

ISBN: 080908970X / Publisher: Hill & Wang / Date: Aug 2005 / Page Count: 326

Showing how Paine turned Americans into radicals, the author presents the nation's democratic story with wit, subtlety, and, above all, passion. Paine was one of the most remarkable political writers of the modern world.

Harold might be an interesting read.

I'd be very interested in reading about Paine. I know very little about him. I read somewhere that he spent his money earned from "Common Sense" on mittens for the American army.

That is quite shocking about Joseph Ellis. He's considered an authority. What is he supposed to have lied about?

Marni

Marni - To get the entire picture Joseph Ellis' false claims about himself that caused him to lose credibility as a historian and caused him to be suspended from his teaching position you might want to read the book: Past Imperfect: Facts, Fictions, Fraud American History from Bancroft and Parkman To Ambrose, Bellesiles, Ellis and Goodwin by Peter Charles Hoffer. This book also discusses the plagarism of Steven Ambrose and Doris Kearns Goodwin, and the fraudulent reports of Bellesiles. Brian Lamb did a booknotes program about this book with Peter Hoffer and the text and video is available on the C-SPAN web site. I was disappointed to say the least to learn about these people as I have read books by Ellis, Kearns, and Ambrose and was impressed with their work. CubFan

The Joseph Ellis thing has been around for some 4 years. Apparently it relates to his lying about his military service during the Viet Nam war. Apparently he had picture himself a platoon commander with the 101st division and even on General Westmoreland’s staff, while actually his military duty was all states side, Click Here.

I had pretty much forgotten it last year when his publisher released “His Excellency, George Washington”. Other popular non-fiction authors including Mc Cullough and Ambrose have made factual mistakes but the Ellis enhancement of his own biography seems to many a far more serious moral offence. Be that as it may I have found no serious error in his last year’s George Washington bio or the several earlier books that I have read.

What is your thoughts on this matter; does his dishonesty in the inaccurate description of his Viet Nam military service affect his veracity as a non-fiction author?

I think this Joseph Ellis story is quite shocking. And it seems he didn't just lie about his military service but also about others things in his personal life like playing football. Certainly his lying about anything would impact how people might perceive his non-fiction works. According to the article in link above, he not only lied, but REALLY lied - greatly exagerrated his false roles. Why on earth would he do that? He sounds like a person with big problems.

CubFan above also mentions Stephen Ambrose plagiarism. (CubFan spelled his name with a "v" - Is it the same person?) He wrote Undaunted Courage. I wonder what he plagiarised. Now he is dead and can't defend himself. Does anyone know anything about what happened?

Marni

Mr. Ellis sounds like he might be one of those people who lie even when they don't need to. There's a term for it which, naturally, I can't call to mind at the moment.

I knew of a minister..my folks' church...who was discovered to have lied about a number of things, to the great shock of his congregation. Some of the lies were quite inconsequential and to no purpose; he simply seemed to be a habitual liar.

I have thought this sort of thing might be a defensive mechanism, an attempt to reveal as little of oneself as possible. A highly insecure person growing up pretending to be someone else. A football player, a top soldier, ..the popular image of a great guy.

I wonder how someone, especially a noted professional, survives this kind of exposure.

Babi

Regarding Stephen Ambrose the History News Network website says: "evidence is accumulating that he may be a serial plagiarist. The media have reported that he "borrowed" whole paragraphs from other authors in many books over a period of decades.

Ambrose has apologized for misappropriating other peoples' words, but the practice apparently was deliberate. According to the New York Times, Ambrose admitted that "if he came across passages from another author that fit the story he was telling, he would drop the passages into his text and credit the book in footnotes."

The problem is that he didn't always make those credits in footnotes and on the site they give examples of how he would change just one word in a paragraph and not document it at all. It's really a shame that as the reading of history has become more main stream that the authors with some of the greater appeal have not protected the credibility of their profession. It is so difficult to be accurate in reporting history it is essential that the writers be honest in documenting their sources. I can accept errors or slip ups - but to have a pattern of abuse is not acceptable. CubFan

The prominent authors- Ambrose,Ellis and Kerns may have been suffering from a hyper active ego syndrome:some of the evidence goes beyond sloppy writing/editing and overall imparts a tarnish to their works. Ambrose,interestingly employed five or so of his family to do research. His frequent book production I believe brought scrutiny to his works.

...just found this link.

Ann Alden: Hi Ann, re: your post #56, "Why are we discussing politics in the Non Fiction suggestion folder??? There are other places to do this on SN."

Can you, or anyone for that matter, tell me how to get to those 'other places...on SN?" I'd like to get some new opinions to consider...

Thanks much,

Alliemae

I agree with Ann’s comment in message #56 that this non-fiction board is not the place to discuss pure political issues, although of course the discussion of a particular non-fiction book title on politics or a political issue is certainly proper here. There are, however many other Senior Net boards for the discussion of a wide range of issues including political issues.

To access the Round Table Discussion Menu that including computers, politics, Geographic Communities and many others subjects click the Discussions and Chats link at the top of every Seniors net page or the Discussions (small type print) link at the bottom. .

For the Political Issues Folder: Click Here

I just finished American Jezebel re: Anne Hutchinson. Maybe a little too much about her unusual trial with John Winthrop presiding but quite a fascinating look at religion and life in the early years of the Mass. Bay Colony.

And a good listen on a long drive is Faithful - Stephen King and Stu O'Nan documenting (with plenty of sociological commentary tucked in) the 2004 Boston Red Sox baseball season. (You know....the one that ended in the winning of the World Series - Hot Dog! - but of course they didn't know that when they started....)

Everyone must be immersed in some long, long, book! I am reading the book "Rising Tide, the great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and how it changed America", by John M. Barry........What could be more appropriate to be reading? I wonder if the great Katrina hurricane is also going to change America once again? A good read and so much history.........Have any of you read this?

Click Here for information on Rising Tide- The Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and How It Changed America, by John M. Barry. This title first published in March 1998 would indeed appear a timely book.. Though the flooding then was initiated as a part of the annual spring flood rather than a tropical storm it seems to have particularly affected much of the same New Orleans area as the present storm.

I note that this morning the stage is set for a possible second strike nest week certainly somewhere along the U.S. Gulf cost. Yesterday the computer simulations were indicating the central Texas coast this time, but this morning I note some are indicating a more northern track, possibly even the same area as Katrina.

appropiate to mention here. The author was interviewed on the radio or TV just last week and I have reserved the book from the library.

During the hurricane and subsequent tidal wave that hit Texas in 1900 or 1905, my grandfather lost a sister, BIL, and five children. Their bodies weren't even found together. My grandfather and his mother had to ride a train from Lafayette IN to Galveston TX to identify their remains. He said it was just awful.

Yes Harold....the flooding for a different reason..but as you say the area is the same. such interesting history of the MississippiRiver and the states it impacts.......a lot of past political history too. I have only read about 9 chapters but I am hooked completely........I am watching this hurriane Rita closely.

Information on a proposed Discussion of this 2004 b biography of Audubon is now on the Books Menu. It is planned to begin Nov 1st and be completed by Mid-December. The DL's will be Marni and I. All of you interested in reading and discussing this book are welcome, Click Here for information.

Fascinating, difficult to put down. Should be a must reading, especially by the Bush administration. Very well written .

"In 1974, Carmen Dufour - half Swiss & half Persian - married into the Bin Laden family. Young and in love, the independent European woman joined a complex clan and culture she neither knew nor understood. In Saudi Arabia, she was forbidden to leave her home without a head-to toe black abaya. Carmen was an outsider among the Bin Laden wives, who had closets full of haute couture dresses, yet could not go outside unchaperoned. In 1988, in Switzerland, Carmen seperated from her busband and began a tough battle for custody of her three daughters, Now, with her candid memoir, she dares to pull off the veils that conceal one of the most powerful, secretive, and repressive countries in the world."

Inside The Kingdom. My Life in Saudi Arabia by Carmen Bin Ladin. Published in 2004.

Thank you for your comment on the book by Carmen Bin Ladin about her life in Saudi Arabia. For more information about this book Click Here.

Thank you, thank you, Seldom! I am happy I stopped here first before going to the Library today as it has been sometime since I have found anything in the nonfiction world of books that interests me. I brought home this book and am caught up in it. A couple of years ago, we read "Queen Noor" - the autobiography of the late King of Jordon's wife, have you read it?

Now, of course, I'm wondering why the name "Noor" is also the name of one of the children in this book - it must mean something!!! I'll go to our Archives this evening and read a bit to try to uncover the mystery of this name - by any chance do you know?

Thanks again for your comments.

A clickable to our discussion of Queen Noor's book:

Leap of Faith

A brief look at it did not answer my question. Anyone know?

I remember Queen Noor was given that name upon her marriage, but I have forgotten what it means. Memory like a sieve these days.

I've just started "When Jesus Came to Harvard". The introduction looked promising. I hope it will continue to be interesting.

Babi

Noor as a Female name of Arabic origin probably comes from words meaning light, shining, or luminous. The name. "Noorean" is another variation. I got this from a website with data on baby names: http://pregnancy.parenthood.com/babynames.html

How clever of you, Harold! Thanks for that! I clicked on that site and put in my own name and got the following:

Ella Female English beautiful fairy woman

Hahahahaaaa

The first three are correct, however. Try your own name!

!

Harold Male German army power

Arnold Male German eagle power

So, What's in a name?

My own name, (Barbara, not Babi) is apparently taken from the same root as 'barbarian', meaning foreign or strange. No comments, please.

Babi

My name (Mary Ann) means "bitter." Thanks, Mom!!

Marni

Nothing! In a name, that is - hahahaaa. But the book is very good, giving the reader not only the author's experiences with Saudi Arabia, its culture, the Bin Laden family but a brief history of the country. Very interesting book.

Here's another Barbara. I've always been amused by the fact that the name means foreign, strange, odd, or unusual, as that describes me to a tee. Whenever I'm accused of something goofy, I always say "Blame it on 'Barbara'"

Reading a delightful book called titled "Katz on Dogs".......the author is of course Jon Katz......If you have dogs or just love dogs this is a fun read and helpful too!

Nancy, I love dogs, in particular my late/great resident stray. Jazz who was a ficture at my rural Guadalupe County residence for a full decade.

And Lazylady, welcome to our non fiction board! We hope you will drop by with your comments often in the future.

LAZYLADY, despite the fact that I was christened Barbara (my Mother was a fan of Barbara Stanwyck), the name was never used. I've been 'Bobbie' all my life, which may explain why I have always been a staid, calm, middle-of-the roader. You sound like much more fun.

,,,Babi

Well, Harold, speaking of TEST...did you pass or fail? I failed.

Sun

I don"t even remember what I was testing, It was one of those moments when I found myself unsure if I was connected. I remember I intended to erase it immediately, but alas I forgot..

Wow, did I have a good time at B&N today and, of course, I spent too much money, but............ here's what I bought which will give me hours of pleasure:

RISING TIDE, The Great Mississippi Flood of 1927 and How it Changed America by John M. Barry.

BETWEEN YOU AND ME, a Memoir by Mike Wallace (includes a DVD of some of his most popular interviews)

MY FBI by Louis J. Freeh.

Which one would you start on?

The ladies here think I'm a bit nutty as I could have had a lovely sweater or two for the same amount of money, hhahaaaa - but I will get so much more enjoyment from the books!

Well I can recommend Rising Tide as I have read it and thoroughly enjoyed it.....next I would read My F.B.I. and I might skip Mike Wallace's book altogather.......Let me know how his book is.....I do think I would like to read the Louie Freh book.

I'm reading Harvey Cox's "When Jesus Came to Harvard". Thoughtful and provacative; designed to make people think. I'm enjoying it very much.

Babi

Babi.......can you tell us a little more about this book?

Harvey Cox is on the faculty at Harvard U. He was asked to present a class examining what Jesus has to offer in helping people of today make moral decisions. He makes a major point of the fact that Jesus was a Jewish rabbi, and his use of story-telling (parables) was very much in the Rabbinic tradition. They were designed to make people think, to see the world differently.

His class became one of the most popular classes offered at Harvard, drawing large crowds, not only students but people of many different professions, religions, and nationalities. I found I was very quickly regretting I was reading a library book, as my fingers itched to underline sentences and passages. If this book should come up for discussion on SN, I'm going to go buy my own copy.

Babi

Sounds very good, Babi - I've reserved it at the Library. Let's suggest it as a Proposed Book Discussion and see where it leads. Do you suppose it would make a good Christmas book discussion? Put a little seriousness into what has become an irreligious (well, almost) holiday? Dare we do it?

I've just finished - actually just read the last few pages - of McCullough's book - 1776! What a gem. We will be discussing this book in January, so do add it to your Christmas list of wishes!

And now I'm going to start on Louis Freeh's book - MY FBI.

NANCY - The book, RISING TIDE, had such a long waiting list at my Library that I went out and bought it. Where did that come from? Who made it so popular or was it just the circumstance of New Orleans? It looks very good! And a very big book it is - do you think it might make a good discussion?

I've read McCullough's book - THE JOHNSTOWN FLOOD - have you? We just missed seeing the museum to that flood in PA. on a trip there a few years back.

Ella I do think the N.O. thing brought this book back to popularity. It is long but very readable......I think it would make for a great discussion.....I am going to buy the book that Babi is reading...sounds wonderful

Well, we have 3 people interested in the book - WHEN JESUS CAME TO HARVARD. Almost enough for a discussion -

Anyone want to make it 4?

RISING TIDE promises a number of pleasurable hours of reading, if you can call floods "pleasurable?" I used the wrong word - somebody supply the right one, please!!!!!!

Ella....don't know if this is the word but "history" of the Mississippi River and the cities and borders effected by it , is what it is all about.....lots of politics of that time etc..........much turbulence as is the case in present times........I really liked the book.........I will vote for the "Jesus" book..........

Click Here for further Information from the publisher and short reviews from Publishers weekly and other

We are looking for a December discussion, Ella, how about working up an offering? There is time to get it in the schedule if you move quickly and I think that based on the interesting subject slant, I think it will receive popular support.

Though my current schedule will not permit me to take on the project, I will get the book and participate in the discussion if you choose to offer it.

Also for your information Ella and I are preparing to offer David McCullough’s “1776” in January. Click Here for information from the publisher and short reviews from Publishers weekly and other.

Okay, Harold and Nancy, you will soon have the opportunity to post a message of interest as Babi, Ginger and myself have all decided to be the Discussion Leaders for Harvey Cox's book which will be Proposed for December.

WATCH FOR IT - WE ARE WORKING ON IT AS FAST AS WE CAN!

Meanwhile, Louis Freeh, who was appointed Director of the FBI in 1993 by Clinton, is firing away at our former President and his lack of cooperation, his scandal-ridden administration, etc. My, My! And I have just read 2 chapters of the book!

Ella....I was no fan of Mr. Clinton's behavior but I am pretty tired of still hearing about it.....this book though maybe has nothing to do with his personal business and may be a good read.......I all ways thought Louie Freh to be a honest and principled man.........Let us know what you think.......Clinton was such a charmer and so very intelligent, could touch people with his words, .........I think he frittered a lot away............

Thanks to all three of you DL's Ginger, BaBi, and Ella for bringing about this discussion. I should be a popular pre-Xmas discussion forum

has a new book called Talk To The Hand, about the utter bloody rudeness of everyday life. I heard her discussing it on Radio, and I was saying yes, yes, yes! She is such a funny lady.

Hi Jan! I've never heard of the lady - is she anything like Phllis Diller used to be? What station, what time? Is this her first book? Tell us more. Boy, could I use a laugh or two or three!

Didn't Lynn Truss write "Eats Shoots and Leaves?"

patwest, yes, Truss did write Eats Shoots & Leaves. I'll be waiting eagerly to read this new one.

No, no, I can't bear another book to read at the moment, my bed table is going to fall down from the weight of them! Oh, what temptations; however, I will start a list of books to read so I shall never complain again about not finding something good to read.

Thanks for the suggestion, Jan.

Our book discussion group met for the first time - I recently moved to a independent retirement home and was pleased that about a dozen people showed. A few that had not read our current book - 1776 by David McCullough - but want to get involved! A fiction was chosen for next month entitled CHAIN OF COMMAND by Caspar Weinberger. Remember that guy?

My progress through the 3 new books I bought at B&N a week ago - I'm bogged down in Freeh's book, almost finished with Mike Wallace's fascinating book titled "Between You and Me." He's known and interviewed everyone in the last 50 years from every possible field and gives personal opinions as well as parts of his interviews.

RISING TIDE will be a cannot-put-down once I start it. I've read two chapters and it is a huge book! I'll be on it forever and a day but I love books that have no foreseeable end! Now, of course, I will want to take a trip down the Mississippi River or at least to a city that fronts on it, but I may have to settle for just reading about them.

Did you know that the Mississippi River Valley is 20% larger than that of China's Yellow River, double that of Africa's Nile and India's Ganages, fifteen times that of Europe's Rhine and within it lies 41% of the continental United States, incluldin all or part of 31 states?

Measured from the head of its tributary the Missouri River.....the Mississippi is the longer river in the world.

Is that more than you ever wanted to know? Hahahahaaa

So tell us what you are reading - what's good? what's not so good? What is downright horrible and why?

I am currently reading this book. I admit that I was intrigued by listening to Oprah rave about it and I am finding it riveting. Not exactly a "pretty" story, but definitely a no-holds-barred look at what it's like to recover from addiction.

Ella I was entranced by the Mississippi River book....doesn't hurt that I live close to it and the Missouri...........As a matter of fact took a little boat trip on the "Tom Sawyer" just last month in St. Louis........passed under the Eads Bridge which is also talked about in the book.........a wonderful history of that time as well.

Click Here for information on "Talk To the Hand" by Lynn Truss. The From the Publisher description includes a lot of Interesting Information about the book including how it got its title. My conclusion is that it is not only most timely but also needed.Thank you Jan for mentioning it here

Click Here for the report on "A Million Little Pieces" by James Frey. Thank you Bev for your post.

Ella it is really great to have you back posting here. Please plan to come in often. And every one please consider joining Ella Ginger and BaBi in the proposed December discussion of "When Jesus Came to Harvard" by Harvey Cox, Click Here; it still needs several to make a good discussion.

When I post a book title, should I always include a link to B&N or Amazon? (Learning the ropes here)

I'm sorry, I totally forgot that I'd posted here, otherwise I could have put a link to the site where Lynne Truss could be heard talking. It was on Australian Radio but can still be accessed. She struck a chord with my sister because she had some little kid throw something under her car while she was driving along and wanted to pull up and say, what did you go and do that for?

Bev. I think it is helpful to include some sort of link to books mentioned here so I generally post the B&N catalog link for the publishers information that gives some details about the book; sometimes short reviews and comments are also available there. Participants are welcome to include such a link themselves (the simple URL address is fine) or if not I will post the link.

Check. I'll remember that in the future. Thanks.

My 4th day in SeniorNet but my first look here. So often people are not reading the same books at the same time that one often does not find thread in which to post But I was pleased to see Lynn Truss's book Eats Shoots and leaves . It is a rare thing for me these days to buy a book , but I bought this book last year when it was still on the NY sun best books list for x number of weeks.

I am pleased to learn that she has written a new book

Also I have forgotten how the book got it's title, Something about a Panda going in a restaurant to order some shoots, then shoots someone and leaves ....a comma or lack of one changes the meaning.

We hope you will become a regular participant here. You will be very welcome to post here your comment on any non-fiction book you have either read or read about. Also your comment and questions on books others have mentioned are also always welcome.

Also please consider participation with some of our group book discussion. You are welcome to monitor our current discussion of the Richard Rhodes Audubon biography and participate in either or both of our discussions now forming. Just click the following URL’s for more information.

When Jesus Came to Harvard by Harvey Cox; Click Here

Treasure Island By Robert Louis Stevenson ; Click Here

Finally watch for the coming “1776” by David McCullough discussion. This discussion will begin Jan 2nd. Watch for the proposal announcement about Dec 1st.

Max there was a book discussion here on Eats Shoots and Leaves. Look in the Archives if you're interested.

Ella, et al - Rising Tide does sound like a great book...but we've just come back from an incredible river trip down the Ohio from Cincinnati to Paducah, KY, and then up the Cumberland River to Nashville. There was a massive flood on the Ohio River in 1937, where the Ohio rose 60 feet, and the river was 7 miles wide! I'd never heard of that one. Rivers are wonderful!

Our review of Ben Franklin by author Walter Isaacson was a wonderful read and discussion of a truly remarkable man. Starting last month and continuing for 12 months we in Philadelphia will celebrate the life and achievements of Ben Franklin. For anyone who has not had the opportunity to read Isaacons fine bio of Ben: it is a superb study and read. The following web site will be of interest www.benfranklin300.org. I would like to take this opportunity to wish Ben a happy 300th. Cheers!

Have been reading " A History of God" by Karen Armstrong........slow going but very interesting.........

What makes it slow going? Too much doctrine? Too much solemnity? I can thing of many reasons why a history of God could be fast paced. The way He can come on, and has, can be very dramatic. Is Armstrong convincing?

The History of God strikes me as an odd title. It makes me think of God as limited. Really, I would think The History of God would be infinite, limitless. So, the title throws me off.

Click Here for “A History of God” by Karen Armstrong. I don’t know, but based on the critics and publisher’s information at the B& N catalog this book seems more a History of Man’s search for God and Religion than a history of God its self, a subject that would be a bit difficult to research.

Yesterday I acquired the Harvey Cox. When Jesus Came to Harvard. Ella, BaBi, and Ginger are offering this book for discussion beginning December 1st. There is still time for any of you to join. Click Here

Thank you Potsherd for the reminder of Ben Franklins Birth anniversary. We did a discussion of the Isaacson’s Franklin Biography two years ago. It was a good readable biography. The large number of biographic titles about Franklin then in print impressed me.

Harold,

I can understand your explanation about title "The History of God." I should have remembered to look it up in the B&N catalogue.

Potsherd,

I enjoyed reading your wonderful post about Ben Franklin. Thanks.

This is nonfiction, but also fun. There is a book out.. Julia-Julia.. I read her blog a few years ago. This is a woman from NYC named Julia, who woke one morning and decided to do every recipe from Julia Childs French cookbook. And she did.. and blogged her way through. It was wonderful and funny and graceful all at once. I can hardly wait to read the book. Asked for it for my birthday..So wont buy it myself, but let one of our kids do it. Still it is bound to be neat. I remember when she decided to try the Kidney recipes.. Talk about a sceptic.

Stephanie,

I want to read that book. The author made an appearance on Martha Stewart's show about two weeks ago.

Thank you, Stephanie, it does sound like fun. Click Here for "Jilie Julia" by Julie Powell. According to the editor's information the author prepared all 524 recipes from the Julia Childs book in 365 days. What ingenuity, a would be author looking for her book. The B&N material lauds the patience of the author's husband, poor boob! He was paying for it; worse he was eating it; I wonder if his coronary system is still intact?

I have just finished "When Jesus Came to Harvard" by Harvey Cox and it is really something to ponder.........The book by Karen Armstrong is slow going for me as there is a lot to contemplate and think about......a wonderful history of the Jewish people so far............It is not a book that you can just race through.....anyway not for me..........

Nancy - There are several interested in "When Jesus Came to Harvard" -- Ella, Babi and Ginger will be leading a discussion Dec 1st

When Jesus Came to Harvard: Making Moral Choices Today ~ Harvey Cox ~ Dec. 1"

After Christmas, I may try to get a book discussion on the Julia-Julia. The blog was very very funny and touching. A natural writer and not a natural cook, so things got interesting. We will see, once I get the book and read it.

Julia-Julia is a fun and easy read....especially if you love to cook and have a few failures yourself.........very "chick", "chick" though.

Based on today's comment, it sounds more and more like my kind of book.

I actually printed out one of her blogs on kidneys, where she bought them, what they tasted like and her feelings on innards of all types. She is truly quite a funny woman. I also imagined the young Julia Child responding to all this..I so vividly remember Julia Childs first PBS cooking shows. They are so very very funny.

I would like to suggest the noted book be considered for some future review. The author David Hackett Fischer a Professor at Brandeis University is a meticulous researcher and a wonderful writer. When Paul Revere received the lantern light signal from the belfry of the North church Paul Revere immediately started rowing his boat across the Charles river and from the north bank started his famous ride warning the countryside of the British. You will discover that Paul Revere was a man far more complex than the simple artisan and messenger of tradition. " A 1994 New York Times Notable Book of the Year" " A work of rare historical distinction." The Boston Globe " A tale of adventure and intrigue so vivid and so colorful that it some time reads like a thriller rather than a historical monograph....A richly elaborate account." Los Angles Times"

The book is available in large paperback format from Oxford Paperbacks

Growing up, I learned that Paul Revere was a patriot and silversmith. He was immortalized as a hero in poetry for his midnight ride.

So, I was so surprised to find out that Paul Revere, who was a lieutenant colonel in the American Revolution, commander of fort Castle William on Castle Island in Boston, was court-martialed for having disobeyed the orders of his commanding officer during the Penobscot Expedition. (That was a hanging offense.) Revere was acquitted but he lost his post.

It would be interesting to read more about his life.

Marni

Both your posts are very interesting. It's odd how one facet of this man's life is all that's discussed. I would like to know more about the man who played such a big part of the American Revolution.

Marni, thanks for your response to my Paul Revere post. Fort Castle William was a British fort and I would believe Paul Revere would not have set foot on until after the war. As best I can determine the title Colonel was given to him later in the war of Independence. It could well be a more honorary title in recognition for his service to "The Cause," Fischer does not not note anything about the Penobscot Expedition. This probably takes place after the War of Independence; however I did find the following in the Bibliography: "Patrick Leehey head of research at the Paul Revere House is looking carefully into the Penobscot Expedition, the darkest episode in Rever's life." I will write Dr Fischer at Brandeis and see if he can elaborate or direct us to another publication. Potsherd

Click Here for more information on "Paul Revere's Ride" Mentioned by Potsherd above. I note that the author, David Hackett Fischer also wrote "Washington's Crossing that received considerable popular notice when it was released last year.

The Name, "Penobscot Expedition," suggests to me something further north maybe in Maine, perhaps an aborative post revolution probe into Canada?

in the early years of the 19th century, Military titles were often honorary perhaps even self proclaimed. Their appearance did not guarantee that the holder ever served in the military. .

Here's some info I read about Revere. According to this info, he was a Lieutenant Colonel in the Revolution - but in the Massachusetts militia, not in the Continental Army:

"He was commissioned a Major of infantry in the Massachusetts militia in April 1776; was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel of artillery in November; was stationed at Castle William, defending Boston harbor, and finally received command of this fort. He served in an expedition to Rhode Island in 1778, and in the following year participated in the disastrous Penobscot Expedition. After his return he was accused of having disobeyed the orders of the commanding officer, was tried by court-martial, and was acquitted."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Revere

I know I've read of this elsewhere. I'll see if I can find anything else about it.

Marni

"The captain of marines on board the ship of war General Putnam, one of the Penobscot fleet, Thomas Jenness Carnes, wrote as follow:

“Gentlemen

“ Being Requested to Lodge a complaint against L. Col: Paul Revear, for his behavour at Penobscot which I do in the following manner, Viz

“ First For disobedience of orders from General Lovell in two Instances,Vis: When ordered to go on shore with two Eighteen pounders, One twelve, One four & One Hoitzer Excused himself—“Second When ordered by Major Todd at the Retreat to go with him Men and take said Cannon from the Island, Refused, and said his orders was to be under the Command of Gen Lovell, during the Expedition to Penobscot; & that the siege was rais’d, he did not consider himself under his Command—

“Thirdly For neglect of Duty in Several instances—

“Fourthly For unsoldierlike behavour, During the whole expedition to Penobscot, which tends to Courdice—

“Fifthly For Refusing Gen. Wadsworth, the Castle Barge to fetch some men on shore form a Schooner, which was near the Enemy’s ships on the Retreat up the River—

“Sixthly For leaving his men and suffering them to dispurce and takeing no manner of Care of them—

The filing of these charges was followed by instant action. Revere was arrested the same day “and ordered to resign the Command of Castle Island and remove himself to his dwelling house in Boston there to continue until the matter Complained of could be duly inquired into or he be discharged by the General Assembly or Council.”

http://earlyamerica.com/lives/revere/chapt5/

"His military career was not distinguished. On the ill-fated expedition against Penobscot he was arrested for disobeying orders (though a court-martial later acquitted him of the charges), and in 1780 he returned to silversmithing."

http://www.answers.com/topic/paul-revere

"He was commissioned a Major of infantry in the Massachusetts militia in April 1776; was promoted to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel of artillery in November; was stationed at Castle William, defending Boston harbor, and finally received command of this fort. He served in an expedition to Rhode Island in 1778, and in the following year participated in the disastrous Penobscot Expedition. After his return he was accused of having disobeyed the orders of the commanding officer, was tried by court-martial, and was acquitted." (same article as in Wikidpedia)

http://www.revolutionarywar-history.com/Paul-Revere.aspx

"He repaired the cannon in Fort Independence, which the British, on leaving Boston, had sought to render useless by breaking the trunnions, but which he made serviceable by devising a new kind of carriage. After the evacuation a regiment of artillery was raised in Boston, of which he was made major, and afterward lieutenant-colonel. He took part in the unsuccessful Penobscot expedition of 1779."

http://www.rebelswithavision.com/rideofpaulrevere.com/

"But there is another, virtually unknown story that substantially diminished Paul Revere's standing as a soldier. He stood trial on charges of cowardice and insubordination in a military court martial....Revere was a Lt. Colonel in the American militia. Four years after his famous "midnight ride," he was commander of land artillery in the Penobscot Expedition, the worst naval disaster in American history until Pearl Harbor. The American plan was to eliminate British occupation in the area of Castine, Maine along the Penobscot River. It should have been an easy job.

The British had a half-built fort and about three guns. Nine hundred Americans sailed to Penobscot Bay on 21 armed, and 24 unarmed, transport vessels. It was July 25, 1779.

The British were desperate - they could see they were out-manned, out-gunned, and in trouble. But - the Americans did not attack. Their commander of the fleet, Dudley Saltonstall, didn't believe his intelligence reports.

Finally, 500 Americans converged near the fort. Inside, the British were preparing to surrender. But - the Americans still did not attack!

Weeks passed without an American offensive. When British land reinforcements arrived, the Americans still had the advantage but still failed to attack.

Finally, British ships arrived in Penobscot Bay. The Americans fled up the Penobscot River, where they were trapped. Afraid the British would take their ships, the Americans (referred to as “rebels” by the Brits) burned at least seventeen of their own vessels before they ran home through the woods.

Castine remained in British hands throughout the entire war. American patriots, captured when British soldiers burned their mid-coast villages, were forced to build the rest of Ft. George. The entire expedition was an unmitigated embarrassment and disaster.

Back home, Paul Revere was charged with cowardice and insubordination. He was, after all, commander of the land artillery that was never used until it was too late. Revere stood trial in a court martial proceeding. He was acquitted in 1782, but his honor was forever tarnished."

http://www.lawbuzz.com/didyou/revere/revere.htm#preface

Marni

Here's info about the Penobscot Expedition in my copy of The American Heritage Book of the Revolution published in 1958, page 291. (My dad gave it to me last year.)

"A prime example of the wastage of resources was the Massachusetts navy's expedition in the summer of 1779. The object was Maine's Penobscot Bay, a haven for Loyalists driven out of Boston and a base for enemy privateers. [Maine was part of Massachusetts at that time.] Nineteen armed ships, twenty-odd transports, and some 3,000 sailors and militia troops were raised; but the inept American command allowed the British fort to withstand a siege until a British rescue squadron, including a 64, arrived. At once the Massachusetts fleet fled up the Penobscot River. As recorded in a logbook, the British 'pursued the...Rebels & Drove them before us without the Return of a single shot.' Every ship in the American flotilla was taken or destroyed to prevent capture. The disaster threw Massachusetts $7,000,000 into debt, nearly knocking the state out of the war."

Marni

I visited Fort Independence, formerly Fort Castle William, on Castle Island this spring. It is a star-shaped fort like Fort McHenry in Baltimore and was in a very strategic spot overlooking the harbor protecting the city of Boston. The tidal flat to Castle Island was eventually filled in, and the island is now part of South Boston.

Today Fort Independence and Castle Island are on the State and National Registers of Historic Places, and the fort is a National Historic Landmark. Fort Independence is the oldest continually fortified granite site on British North America. Here's some history of the fort:

"In 1634, Governor Dudley of Massachusetts Bay Colony, selected Castle Island for the sea defense of Boston. The first fortifications were an earthwork and two platforms, with three cannons. A pine log fort (1644), the second fort, was replaced with a more substantial structure in 1653. This burned down and was quickly replaced with the fourth fort (1673)....

In 1703, Colonel Romer's brick, four-bastioned fort, begun in 1701, was dedicated, and for most of the 1700's thereafter, was generally known as 'Castle William,' after William III of Orange, King of England. It was armed with 72 cannons, ranging from 9 to 42 pounders.

When the Stamp Act was passed in 1765, packages of offending stamps were landed and stored at Castle William. As a result of the Boston Massacre [1770], the 14th and 29th British regiments were withdrawn from Boston to the safety of Castle William. At the time of the Boston Tea Party [1773], many loyalists, including consignees of the tea, sought refuge in Castle William....

In 1776 the British forces evacuated Boston on March 17th. They destroyed the island's fortifications, which were repaired shortly thereafter by troops under Lt. Colonel Paul Revere....

President John Adams, came to dedicate a new fort as 'Fort Independence' in 1799. This, the island's seventh fort, five-bastioned and of brick, was built by Colonel John Foncin between 1801 and 1803. By 1851, Colonel Sylvanus Thayer, the 'Father of West Point,' completely reconstructed the eight and present fort on Castle Island; doubling the former height, expanding its perimeter, constructing casemate interiors, and replacing brick with granite from the quarries at Rockport, Massachusetts.... "

http://www.celebrateboston.com/main/castleisland.htm

Marni

Thank you for all the extra clickables and information about Paul Revere and The Revolutionary War. I am so excited about all of this information. I am familiar with the long midnight ride, the Henry Wadsworth Longfellow poem. I didn't know about his abilities as an artisan and had no idea about a court martial. As a matter of fact all the other information is new too.

I am finding nonfiction so very exciting!!

Interesting how generations of American students learned an incomplete part of their history in an English class by reading a poem.

Robby

Robby,

You are right. So many people have an incomplete side of American history. Just think of the people who have never heard of Crispus Attucks, Sacajewea, Ida B. Wells, Haym Salomon and Benjamin Banneker. Indeed, history is biased and incomplete.

I would not blame this lack of knowledge on the American schools or their teachers. There is so much in American History to learn and remember. I think it is, for some, a subject that does not become necessary until we age. Then, we yearn to know more about the past and desire to ask more questions about that past: Why were their Japanese internment camps? What was life really like for the Chinese immigrant and the Polish immigrant? All of these questions make us better voters and better American citizens.

Perhaps, teachers did not touch on some subjects because of the sensitivity issue. At what age are children ready to hear about the fatalities of war, racial issues, the flaws of our Founding Fathers? Maybe not until college. College, it seems, is where the myths become stripped and shared with the American student. At that time, the student, I think, is able to make his own choices about his American values.

At our age, Senior Citizens, poetry was a great asset in schools. Henry Wadsworth Longfellows' poem about Paul Revere and the one about Hiawatha are treasures. My mother could repeat the whole poem 'Hiawatha.'

I guess these poems are used by teachers to wet the appetite of their students. Each teacher, I suppose, hopes the student will go on to learn more about these wonderful people in our history.

Personally, I feel blessed to have gone to wonderful schools in Philadelphia, Pa. Enought history was covered in my classes for me to have a working knowledge of the past and set it against the present historical times. However, I did not learn everything and did not understand all I did learn at the time. I am not the fastest learner by a long shot. Yet, I never failed a grade.

Unfortunately, I have a failing memory. The smallest fact can go up and over my head like a breeze. I love Sidney Poitier as an actor. One day I could not remember his name to save me! Frustration. Later, in bed, husband asleep, his name returned to me.

Robby, I loved your comment. Your comment gave me a chance to babble online and ask myself questions. I love to type, I love to learn from the posts of others and I love Seniornet.

Reading Robby's post and writing my post made me realize I definitely want to read Teacher Man by Frank McCourt. I am sure this discussion will lead to many questions from those who have been students, have grandchildren who are students and those of you in Seniornet who have worked or are working with students. I love schoolteachers. Are there any bumper stickers about teachers?

We don't have any bumper stickers on our car. I just wondered are there any about teachers. I know about the ones about honor students. Well, I am getting off topic. Dinner awaits.

Hat:-You say that history "does not become necessary until we age. Then, we yearn to know more about the past and desire to ask more questions about that past."
And that is exactly why those of us in Story of Civilization continue on. We are learning things that the schools glossed over. And at our age we find it fun.

Robby

Robby,

Yes, that is what I tried to write. You wrote it so perfectly. As a matter of fact, while writing, I thought about the wonderful job you do and have done in the Story of Civilization for years.

I am one of your silent admirers. I often lurk and take notes too. Robby, you do a grand job!!!

Thank you, Hats, but as you know, a DL is a nobody without a group which participates regularly.

Robby

I don't recall if I asked before and so I'll ask now. Is anyone here interested in our forming a group to discuss Darwin's "Origin of Species?"

Robby

Hats: Re: "Unfortunately, I have a failing memory. The smallest fact can go up and over my head like a breeze."

I feel exactly the same way sometimes!! My memory for certain things, such as peoples' names, was never good. As I get older, my memory gets worse and worse. It's kind of frightening. But I love to learn new things. Some of them I remember and some not. The internet is a great tool for me. If I have forgotten something, I often can look up something about it on the web, find info. about it, and refresh my memory.

I have always loved history. We got bits and pieces in school. History is like building blocks. You have to start with a base and then build up from there. You can't just learn everything about everything at once. History is so vast. When you have a framework in place, you can begin to help yourself learn more and add to the structure, either by yourself or in classes or in a place like SeniorNet.

I find the more I learn about a topic or an era - for instance, the American Revolution - the more there is to learn. You start finding out interesting little tidbits about people or wars or cultures, etc. and it makes the learning very exciting. It's an ever-expanding world of knowledge. Pieces of puzzles start to fit together. You start relating one event to another. You begin to really understand the reasons things happened the way they did. I love it!

Reading books is so important for me. I learn so much from them and want to share and exchange ideas with others. Not everyone is as interested in non-fiction topics as I am. Sometimes I think I bore some of my friends and family by talking about the things I read about. SeniorNet is a wonderful place where I can share ideas easily. It's wonderful to find a place where people are as interested in reading and learning and sharing ideas as I am.

Marni

Marni,

You share your knowledge about History so well. Harold and you work so well together as DL's sharing about birds, The War of 1812 and the different locations in Audubon's time.

I have shared wonderful nonfiction discussions with Ella too. I enjoyed Icebound with Ella. I also enjoyed Ella's discussion of Kitchen Priviledges and Ella's discussion with Harold about Ben Franklin.

All of the DL's here are just wonderful. I know their job is not an easy one. Whoops, I should have given thanks for DL's yesterday. I did give thanks for Seniornet.

I also very much enjoyed Shirley Jackson's biography with Ginny. That one is unforgettable too!!

Oh, and I loved All Over but the Shoutin' by Rick Bragg. Ella was the DL for that one too.

I love the various discussion on books. I participate when I can, but sometimes the book is something I simply do not want to read. I can recite whole sections of poems, because my 4th grade teacher made us learn and recite the narrative poems as part of English. I loved it then and amazing to me can still do most of them.

True, Stephanie. I remember the things I learned as a student far better than the things I 'learned' recently. I think we all have that problem as we grow older; the brain matter just doesn't seem to absorb as well as it once did. But that doesn't stop us from enjoying reading about new things.

Was it HAT who asked about bumper stickers for teachers? I know of one.

"IF YOU CAN READ THIS, THANK A TEACHER."

Babi

Babi,

That is soooo cute!

The DL's are great and the subjects and links just take me all over the place to learn new info. Thanks Marni for all those wonderful PR links. I will be reading all night.....but what better thing to be doing!?!?

My college students often say to me "why didn't they teach us this in K-12 school? We love this." I think they can discern, even as youngsters when they are being feed pablum, they like reality.

Hats - the issue of so many people being left out of history is right on! In 1980 i was at a NJ teachers seminar at Rowan Univ talking about how to put women and minorities in the cirriculum. There was a auditorium full of educators of all levels. There had been a panel presentation and in the Q and A, these teachers were asking "where can i find this information?" And I wondered "have you people ever heard of libraries!?!?" The saddest thing was that 25 yrs later when i give tours at Alice Paul's home, talking about her life and women's suffrage, I still get the same question. Now, of course, i can say go ON LINE, there's a million things to learn.

And Hats - if you're going to recall Sidney Poitier what better place than in a dreamlike state in your bed w/ your husband!! I love it!...jean

Jean,

You are soooo funny!!

Jean,

You are sooo right! So many women who had wonderful ideas and then, implemented those ideas are unknown. I love reading about women and their accomplishments. My fascination with women and their accomplishments is a new one for me. I love it.

Listed so far to participate in Darwin's "Origin of Species" are Kleo, Mal, Eloise, Scrawler, JoanK, Dorian and myself. Anyone else who meant to but forgot?
Talk it up among your friends.

Robby

so I probably won't have time to read, but i'll be lurking. My husband also, he's a biology professor......jean

Robby, I don't know that I'll have time to read either, but, like jean, I'll be lurking.

The lurker's list gets longer......

Sun

I am going to sign up for the international discussion, Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress. I am just getting my feet wet in Story of Civilization. I won't have time to lurk in OOS.

I am really looking forward to "1776" by John McCullough along with the international discussion, Balzac and the Chinese Seamstress. Suppose something else comes along? So, I should hold back on even my chances to lurk in OOS.

Lurkers are welcome in "Origin of Species." It's amazing how often a lurker can't resist him/her self and comes forward to give an opinion.

Robby

Robby,

That is my number one problem!

OK, Hats. We'll list you as a semi-lurker. You like non-fiction and Darwin's book is definitely non-fiction. In January we start our voyage and you can be a stowaway.

Robby

Robby,

I like the word "stowaway." It seems fitting.

I'm reading Leon Hale's "Easy Going" and finding it easy going indeed. Hale writes these books about country people and old-timey customs, language and places. Nostalgia on every page, and a hearty laugh often enough to do you good. The locale is his home ground (and mine) of Texas, but I feel sure 'old-timers' from anywhere would find his stories familiar.

Babi

Oh, BaBi, is that ever a name from my past! I grew up in Houston - moved there during WW II. John and I moved to Tennessee in 1962, and my mother moved to join us here in 1972. We read Leon Hale in the Houston Post faithfully, and always loved his stuff. Is he still alive? Is this an anthology of his newspaper columns?

Where in Texas do (did) you live? My parents were born and grew up in Bonham, and I have an aunt and cousin still in The Valley.

Mary - I spent some time in and around Bonham in my youth. Did your parents know ole Sam Rayburn, Speaker of the House? His home and Library is in Bonham.

Sun

This is getting just too spooky! Sun, my grandfather, Charles Wheeler, was the Fannin County judge. Sam Rayburn had his first job reading law in my grandfather's law office. The family story has it that Mr. Sam used to give my father dimes when he was a little boy. Both sides of my family and all the Rayburns are buried in Willow Wild Cemetery in Bonham. My immediate family never lived in Bonham, but a number of my cousins grew up there. We only go there now to visit the cemetery.

How did you happen to be in Bonham?

As far as I know, MARY, Hale is still very much alive. You can pull up a lot of info. on him on the Web. I love the picture of him on the back of "Easy Going". Slim, curly-haired, wearing jeans and denim, leaning against a wall of old stained siding, with just a faint suggestion of a grin.

I now live in Deer Park, TX., near Houston. I was born in Houston, and tho' we moved around a lot, we kept coming back here. There are other Texans posting around here, too. Maybe we ought to pick out a Leon Hale book and enjoy it together here.

Babi

BaBi, my folks bought a house at the end of WW2 in Bellaire, almost at the intersection of Bellaire Blvd and the 610 Loop. The house, a modest 3BR/1B ranch was torn down several years ago and replaced by $300,000 town homes.

I've checked our library and all they have is an older book by Hale called Home Spun - A Collection. I've put it on reserve and should have it in a few days.

Folks, I think I must be losing my mind! I said in my last post that as far as I knew, Hale was still alive. Leon Hale was a guest speaker at our library just a couple of weeks ago! I forgot about it on the scheduled day and didn't attend, I'm sorry to say. But to completely forget about it already?!

The reports were that he was very pleasant very patient and friendly in signing all the books and answering all the questions. I'll bet if we were able to discuss one of his books, he would be open to taking part.

Babi

Sounds like great fun, Babi!

Mary - good to hear about your grandfather Wheeler. I am a sucker for history, especially Texas history. About Mr. Sam handing out shinny dimes, we had a wealthy gentleman here in Tyler named D. K. Caldwell, that handed out the new dimes to every child he passed all through the depression. Yes, indeed I got a few of those dimes...LOL. WE even lived in one of his houses. He wasn't a politician, but owned much land, and left a lot of property to the city of Tyler, and our excellent, well known Zoo is the Caldwell Zoo, still supported by his foundation, along with schools, etc.

Babi - I still have lots of kinfolks down in and around Houston.

Ya'll keep me posted about Leon Hale...drat, I'm already book poor.

Sun

Talk about Leon Hale reminds me of another newspaper writer I enjoy.....H wrote "The Rural Life" althought he writes for the N.Y. Times or did...Verlyn Klinginborg........enjoyable, especially if you ever lived "in the country" as we say here, or on a farm.........

Klinginborg still writes for the New York Times. I like him too.

I brought 3 books home from the Library yesterday for our local book discussion group to consider in January. A few years ago I read Walter Cronkite's autobiography - A REPORTER'S LIFE - but possibly others have not; it's a very good book.

And I picked up a book by the title of "THE MAN WHO TRIED TO SAVE THE WORLD: The Dangerous Life and Mysterious Disappearance of Fred Cuny" by Scott Anderson.

Also, "THE MARSHALL FIELDS: The Evolution of an American Business Dynasty" by Axel Madsen.

They all look good, which would you choose to discuss? We are meeting today to discuss our current fiction - "CHAIN OF COMMAND" by Caspar Weinberger.

A hearty "THANK YOU" to all of you for the suggested books - I love this discussion, I love nonfiction books and I have written several down to explore at my next visit to the Library.

"THE MAN WHO TRIED TO SAVE THE WORLD: The Dangerous Life and Mysterious Disappearance of Fred Cuny" by Scott Anderson.

If I had to choose one to discuss, I would choose Scott Anderson's title. I would like to know what drove Fred Cuny to take such desperate chances with his life in order to help other people. I also would like to know about his disappearance.

Thank you for the title. I will write it on my loooooong list. I always find good suggestions here.

Our library has added a new twist to its online features. You pick a category (I picked nonfiction) and this person Suzanne (is she getting paid for this service?) sends by email three days a week the first few paragraphs in a book; having just received my first email I am thrilled by the book Suzanne is suggesting and rushed to the library to get it.

DEAR SENATOR a Memoir by the Daughter of Strom Thurmond, written by Essie Mae Washington-Williams whose mother was a black teenager working as a maid on the Thurmond family's South Carolin plantation.

I remember well Thurmond's anti-integration stance during the era of the Civil Rights Act of 1957, his rantings and ravings, while keeping his own misdeeds out of the public eye.

I'm just starting the book, but it is well written; Essie has been a teacher in Los Angeles for 27 years and is a lovely lady! It would make a good discussion.

Ella,

I have been wanting to get 'Dear Senator' from the library. I have seen Essie Mae Washington-Williams on tv. She seems like a very kind lady. I can't wait to read her Book.

I recently bought Barbara Ehrinreich's new one.. "Bait and Switch". We did discuss her earlier "Nickeled and Dimed", so after I read this will see if there are enough interested to try her new one. Supposed to be about white collar workers, so should be interesting.

Click Here for more information on "Bait & Switch by Barbara Ehrinreich.

The new Curious Minds' discussion: "The Patriot Act" is now open. Here is a link:
The Patriot Act

Bill H

I spotted a new book at the library that I'm going to check out as soon as I have time. It's "One Hundred People Who Are Screwing Up America", by Bernard Goldberg. These, of course, are his own personal choices for screw-ups; he doesn't expect his readers to agree with all his selections. It sounds like it will be fun to read.

Have any of you read this one yet?

Babi

I read it and enjoyed it......like you said...didn't agree with everything but it is entertaining if you don't get to upset over personalities.........

BABI, you find the most interesting books to read; after all you were the source of our current book discussion "WHEN JESUS CAME TO HARVARD by Harvey Cox." An OSU student (Ohio State) heard me talking about it today and asked questions about it; she was very interested and is going to get the book.

Anything you suggest is going on my list of books to check out at the libary.

Thanks for your comments, Nancy.

I'm just about finished (reading very slowly these days,) with "DEAR SENATOR" by Essie Mae Washington-Williams; in many ways it is a history - a personal history - of the changing times of South Carolina before and after the Civil Rights Act. After reading that the South was definitely against the election of Harry Truman, who first proposed the enactment of a civil rights law, it is still amazing that he ever became president.

Hi Bill, you and other DL's are always welcome to place announcement of non-fiction and general interest projects here. You have a timely subject there.

Thank you BaBi for your comments on "One Hundred People Who Are Screwing Up America," by Bernard Goldberg, Click Here for more information about this book. It would be interesting to read his list though I suspect there would be a rather wide variation between individuals compiling their own list. Yet I suspect some names would repeat on many lists.

Another interesting approach to the book would be to obtain the lists from a large statistical sample of individuals and do the book on the ones that appeared most often on the sample lists.

Why, ELLA, what a lovely compliment! Thank you!

HAROLD, what will be really embarrassing when I read Goldbergs book, is that I probably won't even recognize many of the names listed. It's amazing how little interested I am in most celebrities, and how ignorant I can be about any political figure below the level of President.

Babi

As this is also our History board, I'm here to recommend one book and one DVD to those of you interested in WWI and/ or the British ruling family.

The first is The Last Days of Henry VIII, by Robert Hutchinson, a new book and if you're remotely interested in that period of time, extremely worth reading. You may think you know all of the details of that time, you'd be wrong, perhaps. This one is full of new stuff. For instance Henry weighed 38 stone at his death (a stone is apparently 14 and some pounds) but was 6'3", a very large man. The sores on his legs, when they would heal, were thought to be trapping the poisons or humours in, and so were opened, can you imagine? It's thought that he may have suffered from thrombosis of the veins in his legs, not syphilis, but it's what really went on that's interesting. If that's your period of interest, this new book is well worth it.

Another wonderful experience, which I wrote about in more detail in the Book Nook is the PBS series now on DVD, the Lost Prince, about the youngest son, John, of George V. John was brother to the Duke of Windsor and Elizabeth II's father. He was "different" as a child and kept away, it's beautiful, it really is, and it brings George V to life like you have never seen him.

Meticulously researched and filmed with actors who look like ringers for photographs of , for instance, John, Lloyd-George, and George V, it explores the change of name to Windsor and the somewhat startling information that George had offered his cousin Nicky, the Tsar of Russia, of whom he was very fond, and his family asylum in England, and they had accepted, only to retract it. The Writer-Director of the movie makes the point that this was unknown until recent times, until Kenneth Rose wrote about it in his book George V. Rose used the notes of the King's private secretary Stamfordham, who was the actual go between. Stamfordham also is the man who suggested the name Windsor to George V as a possible new name to replace his very German one. The effect of this decision to retract or delay an invitation of refuge on everybody concerned, including George V, is very poignant, it's a super production. I have ordered the Rose book, which will take 6 weeks to come, for some reason, and am interested in reading more about this.

The movie seems to also say that the cousins: Wilhelm of Germany, Nicholas of Russia and George of England, would never have ended up in WWI had Nicholas, an indecisive man who deferred to his wife in all things, not mobilized the Russian army. After one of his famous swims.

Things are so seldom what they seem, and the legends that surround their passage through time, and it's the facts under the myths of history we are taught which fascinate me. If this period of time fascinates YOU and you have not seen The Lost Prince, I think you really want to see it: it's fabulous.

I'm reading two interesting books. "An Imperfect God: Geo Washington, His Slaves, and the Creation of America" by Henry Wiencek. He also wrote "The Hairstons: an American Family in Black and White." Have any of you ever read him? It seems a little rambling and i'm not sure how he feels about GW and maybe that's a good thing.

I'm also reading "Wild Rose" by Ann Balckman, about Rose O'Neale Greenhow who was a spy for the confederacy during the Civil WAr. Very interesting so far.

I'm about a third of the way thru each of them and just getting into "1776." Am I overdoing it??? It's the fault of this web site that my "to read" list is longer than the daily stock exchange print out.....but it's a "good thing," as opposed to many things i MIGHT be doing to occupy my time. And it's also a good thing that i can knit AND read at the same time.

I'm also just about finished w/ Pete Hamill's "Forever" which is fiction, but gives a lot of history about NYC. I'm almost finished, but i haven't decided yet whether i'm enjoying it or not!! I know it hasn't grabbed me and hung on because i'm reading it in dribs and drabs over the last couple of months. Do any of you have an opinion of it?........jean

Hi Jean, I would love to read both books written by Henry Wiencek. I have added both titles to my library list. You are definitely having fun reading at your house. May I come over?

MABEL, how do you knit and read at the same time? Not that I knit, but all I can do while reading is eat my lunch or pet my cat.

(*<>*)

Babi

mabel - that's my question - how do you read and knit at the same time? You must have a great book holder. I wish I could find one like that.

Click Here for information on “An Imperfect God-George Washington, His Slaves, and the Creation of America by Henry Wiencek.

Strange, this book is not listed in the B&N catalog hence the Amazon link . I wonder why? We are looking for a good follow up after “1776” and assuming it is a well written well researched book its subject might be timely. What do you think Marni? Ella is it at your library.

And Wild Rose by Ann Blackman also is not in the B&N catalog. Click Here for information from the Amazon Catalog.

Harold: For a follow-up to 1776, one is already in the works for March - Founding Mothers by Cokie Roberts. (Sign-up page to be up shortly.)

For others, I would strongly recommend Ron Chernow's Alexander Hamilton, which would make sense because it encompasses Hamilton's role in the Revolution, but continues on to the creation of the constitutional government.

Another recommendation for a follow-up, something I am personally interested in, is The Island at the Center of the World: The Epic Story of Dutch Manhattan, the Forgotten Colony that Shaped America by Russell Shorto. I am just loving it! It is very readable and is information not known to most of us because it is just being re-discovered. The book is out in paperback.

Here is one review from Amazon:

"From Publishers Weekly Drawing on 17th-century Dutch records of New Netherland and its capital, Manhattan, translated by scholar Charles Gehring only in recent decades, Shorto (Gospel Truth) brings to exuberant life the human drama behind the skimpy legend starting with the colony's founding in 1623. Most Americans know little about Dutch Manhattan beyond its first director, Peter Minuit, who made the infamous $24 deal with the Indians, and Peter Stuyvesant, the stern governor who lost the island to the English in 1664. These two seminal figures receive their due here, along with a huge cast of equally fascinating characters. But Shorto has a more ambitious agenda: to argue for the huge debt Americans owe to the culture of Dutch Manhattan, the first place in the New World where men and women of different races and creeds lived in relative harmony. The petitions of the colony's citizens for greater autonomy, penned by Dutch-trained lawyer Adriaen van der Donck, represented "one of the earliest expressions of modern political impulses: an insistence by the members of the community that they play a role in their own government." While not discounting the British role in the shaping of American society, the author argues persuasively for the Dutch origins of some of our most cherished beliefs and their roots in "the tolerance debates in Holland" and "the intellectual world of Descartes, Grotius, and Spinoza." Shorto's gracefully written historical account is a must-read for anyone interested in this nation's origins."

Marni

I do have TWO great book holders and as soon as the brain synapses kick in, i'll post where i got them - AH! yes! Levengers - a catalogue that we somehow started getting in the mail, it sells office furniture and accessories. These book holders have an adaptable back, so you can adjust the slant and two pegs w/ lots of holes in the front, so it adjusts to all size books. And i set it on the coffee table in front of me, and i knit and read, sometimes i have a book on one and a knitting pattern on the other........I don't do as well crocheting and reading, I have to see my crochet stitches, but w/ the knitting stitches, i can usually feel them and know where they are and what i have to do.

As for other books for this year - IMO we have to do a Ben Franklin bio, if you haven't already done him? It IS his tri-centennial and if you come to PHila, you must check w/ the tourist center, they are doing lots of special events relating to BF and if you haven't seen the new Constitution Center, it's worth the trip.

All of your suggestions sound great. I'm reading Founding Mothers, so will look forward to joining you on that. The NY one sounds interesting too and the others too. I must say this group of all of you are so welcoming and inclusive, some sites i've been on seem a little insular and don't seem to welcome newcomers as warmly.

I'm going to Georgia for a week. Don't know if i can get on while i'm gone, but if i can I'll be lurking to see what you all are talking about......jean

Hi Mabel! Oh, I'd love to go to Georgia with you, it has to be warmer than Ohio this time of year. As for a bio of Ben Franklin, yes - I vote yes. I saw a good one in a bookstore titled "THE AMERICANIZATION OF BENJAMIN FRANKLIN" by Gordon S. Wood and on skimming it I thought this is one I must check out. Have you, by any chance, seen that one?

We have a few pending discussions so I'll wait a month or two to look it up.

It warms my heart to hear you say that our group of Seniors is warm and welcoming! I've been here since 1997 and our book discussions never get old, too bad I can't say the same thing about myself- haha.

it is beautiful in Georgia. I don't know what the temperature is for sure, but it's very comfortable to be outside w/ a light jacket and the sun is shining. My cousin said we bring good weather, this is our second visit and it's been beautiful both times.,,,,Jean

We've just finished reading an old book by Florence King, called "Southern Ladies and Gentlemen". It's hysterical! Sort of a loving, tongue-in-cheek description of all things "Southern". I've ordered a copy of this from amazon to have my own copy, plus a couple of her other books.

'Takes courage to read this new book by Sam Harris.

I imagine it does, for believers. I've seen Sam Harris speak before totally quiet crowds on C-span2. He speaks in a very studied way, with long pauses as he forms his sentences, so as to be exact in what he's saying. I didn't hear even one cleared throat or a cough from the audience during these silences. I am not a believer, myself, so his views are like a breath of fresh air to me. I am in the minority here at Seniornet, however, so I don't wag on about it.

Hello Mary, Troubador and Howzat! I'm reading your notes on books so do keep posting them. It takes all kinds of books to satisfy our tastes and whether we agree or disagree on the views, we love to hear about them.

I've got 3 books I'm working on from time to time plus 1776 by David McCullough that we are discussing.

Two are old, old books bought for a dollar at the Library - one a book about Jack Lemmon by Widener which is very amusing, and FINAL VERDICT by Adela Rogers St. Johns - a biograpy of her father - and a new novel titled DANCER by Colum McCann which is based on the true story of Rudolf Nureyev's life.

I read Final Verdict a long long time ago as well as some other stuff by her. She was an excellent writer. I stay away from religious sites here.. About as much fun as a toothache.. Same with the For Women only site, we used to have. All we kept getting was males, who needed to tell us what to talk about.

I have been plumping for a discussion group for those of us who are interested in ancient history, but so far, no go. They suggested that I enter the nonfiction discussion group. So, here I am. I would love to connect with others who find ancient history their passion. Or am I the only one in the world? My particular areas of interest are the ancient Near Eastern lands, so-called Cradle of Civilation; Egypt, of course; and the Bible lands. I have read many, many interesting books lately and would enjoy sharing with others. Also, would love to see other recommendations. Does anyone else remember "book reports"? I used to love to write them. I guess now they might be called "book reviews." I would still love to write them and read them. Want to keep the old brain flexible ande questioning, you know. Hope to hear from someone before too long.

Ella, right now I'm reading "his oldest friend: the story of an unlikely bond" (I don't use any caps since they aren't used on the book jacket or on the title page inside) by Sonny Kleinfield, a reporter for the New York Times and the author of seven other books, plus writings for the Wall Street Journal, Harper's, Atlantic, etc., in other words a seasoned, respected writer.

And it shows.

The book is about the unlikely, longterm friendship between a Hispanic youth (baggy pants and oversized shirt and all) and a 93 year old lady in a wheelchair living in a Jewish Nursing Home. and, believe me, I went into the book thinking that I probably wouldn't tarry too long.

Boy, was I wrong.

While the revelations in the book of the interchange between these two is not earth shaking or epiphanously life changing, Kleinfield's exploration of the backgrounds and the day to day life of Elvis and Margaret Oliver does get the old neurons synapsing with thoughts that interrelate my life experience with theirs. And, isn't that one of the nice things about books? To expand one's thinking through reading? Anyway, enjoy if you run across the book.

LayzyladyND, does that ND stand for North Dakota? I hope you find some like-minded folks to disscus ancient history with. Welcome to SeniorNet.

LazyLady - have you gone to the discussion page on The Story of Civilization? It's been going on on SN for a number of years. I don't know which volume they're on by now, but it's very active.

STEPHANIE, I am a believer, but I have to agree with you about the religious sites. When I first came to SN, that was one of the subjects I expected to enjoy the most. Unfortunately, they were either visited by non-believers who wanted to tell us how we should think, (sound like your women's site?) or tied up in endless repetitive arguments by a few posters who absolutely could not be diverted. A pity..

Babi

I read that series many, many years ago when it first came out. Yes, it was interesting but so very broad in its scope, a survey only, for the general public; however, much of it is now outdated, what with all the recent discoveries and decipherments. Too many up-to-date books to read in my more narrow field of interest.

Yes, howzat, ND stands for North Dakota. Thanks for the welcome. I, too, hope I can connect with one or two like-minded ancient history nuts.

I am not help at all on ancient civilizations. I pick and choose on that sort of reading. Some of our discussion groups, not in books incidently, are dominated by two or three people with strong opinions and long long discourses. Took a while, but I think I have finally gotten rid of them .

Brrr, makes me shiver just to think of North Dakota.

Have you ever Googled your need for interaction with other ancient history buffs? Try typing in, ancient history discussion groups, and see what comes up. Just a thought.

Howzat, I have read a review or a synopsis about this book, "his oldest friend: the story of an unlikely bond" I would love to read it. It sounds sooo interesting.

Howzat, you are seriously misinformed about North Dakota, but we do want people to think of us as subarctic--keeps all the riff-raff away. LOL Seriously, our weather has changed and is changing so fast that before long all the snowbirds will move here for the winter instead of AZ and TX. Today will be in the mid-thirties--a heat wave for ND and there is hardly any snow on the ground. It's been like this for weeks. Of course, we do still have February and March to get through, But compared to what some other states are going through and have gone through lately, ND is Paradise.

And yes, I have done some googling but I've not run into any discussion groups. However, I will keep trying. I'm not really looking for a discussion group, per se, but someone knowledgeable in ancient history just to chat with once in awhile. Thought maybe there would be a retired history prof here in SeniorNet.

Living in Florida, the remark on ND is really funny. Actually our weather this weekend has been cold indeed, but the winter visiters in all their numbers insist on wearing shorts.. It was 41 this morning..

and here in Missouri it is in the 40's this morning and to be 60 this afternoon......we have hardly had any winter....buds on the pear trees and lilacs.....not good .....spring bulbs coming up too.........all will be nipped for sure more than likely...........

We're ready for people to sign up to read the March 1st Non-Fiction selection, Founding Mothers, by Cokie Roberts. If you're interested in reading a lively and fascinating book about the women of the Founding Fathers, a book filled with juicy quotes and spicy details of wives, sisters, mistresses, spies, and inventors, this is the book for you.

Click on the link below to sign up:

"---Founding Mothers ~ Cokie Roberts ~ Proposed for March 1st"

JoanK and I are looking to seeing you there!

Marni

Lazy lady I am now much tied up in the “1776” discussion but I am still interested in starting a general history board for discussion of specific history events including ancient, but my schedule will not permit it until at least this fall. Also I am looking into the possibility that the Usenet may be your answer for ancient history discussion . I will get back with more detail as my schedule will permit, but click the following sites for some explanation

http://www.faqs.org/usenet

http://groups.google.com/group/soc.history.ancient?lnk=sg

Harold--you might as well forget about it, as I'm not really interested in a formal "discussion group" per se. Just want to chat with others via e-mail perhaps who share this interest.

I am becoming more than convinced that when it comes to personal recollection of a place and time, of society during times of trouble, women are better chronicals than most men. It might be because women don't leave anything showing "weakness" out. They are mostly candid about shortcomings and fear. Men tend to be more stoical in their writing of "what happened".

I have just started "A Bed of Red Flowers: In Search of My Afghanistan" by Nelofer Pazira. Her accounting begins at the age of 5, when her father, a physician, was arrested and jailed, in 1978, for five months for not showing allegience to the "rightful" government. I am only on page 27 of this trade paperback copy of the book, but I can see it is going to be a page turner. She will be telling me of how things were during the Russian occupation. Had it been left to Nelofer's mother, Jamila, the family would have been long gone before the Russians had been there even a few months, but Nelofer's father, Habibulla, feels he would be totally lost were he to leave the country of his birth. So, Nelofer and her brother, Hassib, and sister, Mejgan, are doomed to live through the dangerous war between the Russians and the mujahidin (the Holy Warriors).

That is exactly what happens in the following history discussion groups except that instead of thru E-mail the exchanges is on designated discussion boards.

The following is a list of the History discussion groups available to everyone with an internet E-Mail server free (no additional cost). They are

Soc.history ---- Soc.history.ancient ---- Soc.history.early-modern ---- Soc.history.medieval ---- Soc.history.moderated ---- Soc.history.science ---- Soc.history.war.misc ---- Soc.history.war.us-civil-war ---- Soc.history. war.us-revolution ---- Soc.history.war.vietmam ---- Soc.history.war.world-war-ii ---- Soc.history.what-if ----

The Soc.history.ancient, the one that lazy lady would be interested in, has been quite active over the past week with over 20 posts on several different ancient history events. I suspect that this might be an Ideal center for Lazy lady’s ancient history interest. Anyone can initiate a thread on any ancient event or respond with comments, questions , answers or etc to previous posts.

Usenet discussions are not accessed through a Web Browser. Rather they are accessed through Outlook Express or other E-mail programs. As you have surely already configured your E-mail program to receive and send mail, you must now configure the same program to send and receive news from Usenet News Groups. I suggest you contact your ISP’s telephone line for help in setting the configuration. This is what I did this morning as I have not previously had the News Groups available from my current ISP ( sbcglobal.net) on this computer.

Ten years ago when I first got an Internet connection there was hardly anything on the Web. Furthermore what was there took forever do download with the old pre-Pentium machines and super-slow dial-up modem connections. During my first year or so most of my work was through Usenet discussion groups, particularly misc rural and rec.ponds.

And a final word of warning! The usenet was and still is libertarian anarchy. I don’t think you will find any thing overtly offensive in any group label beginning. soc. History, Other domains particularly any those whose label begins alt. ----- might contain anything much of which you probably will want to do without. Simply don't subscribe to these groups and there will be no problem,

My objection to the book discussion groups is that they seem too limited. A book is selected for discussion, and that discussion goes on forever. Not only am I seldom interested in the book that is chosen--or have already read it--it's way too slow for me. I read, sometimes, two or three books a week and I just don't have the patience to sit around and wait while everyone else catches up. So, for me the book discussion groups just don't work, and it doesn't seem like I will find what I'm looking for on SeniorNet.

Lazy Lady ND,

Try the "Book Nook" at SeniorNet.

It is a place where people post comments when they've read a book, maybe swap a couple of posts with other people about the book, and talk about what's going on in their lives. This may be a looser set-up that fits what you are looking for.

Have you read The First Fossil Hunters by Adrienne Mayor? That's a recent read for me and was fascinating. I posted my thoughts on the book in the "Book Nook".

Marvelle

No one who participates in the group discussing The Story of Civilization has ever complained that it is too slow. There are numerous postings every single day and the interchange is lively. Come visit us HERE and become part of our lively family.

Robby

I finished "Gifted Hands" by Ben Carson, M.D. He is a neurosurgeon. He had many obstacles to overcome before arriving at his goal. It is a great book. After reading the book, I wanted to know more about how the brain works. Neurosurgeons are amazing. Just imagining a person is trained and fully skilled to part Siamese Twins, remove tumors, etc. It's amazing.

Our library system chose this book. It is hoped the majority of the city will read the book around the same time.

I am just finishing a memoir by Elizabeth Spencer, "Landscapes of the Heart".....she was born and raised in Mississippi.....a good friend of Eudora Welty....My grandmother was from Mississippi and I learned to spell it before I did my own state.....I have a strong affection for that state and have spent a lot of time on gulf......She lamented what the hurricane Camille did to the gulf! (book written before Katrina).I imagine her heart is broken for sure now.....she lives in Chapel Hill , N.C........Also very interesting was her mention of her Mothers side of the family, the McCains......yep......sure enough..Senator John McCain's family hailed from Mississippi many years ago civil war era........plantation and all........I enjoyed this book ever so much................

Robby -- I read the Story of Civilization when it first came out so many years ago. Also, as I've said so often, my interest lies in ancient Near Eastern history. Most of the SOC is way too recent for me. Also, what I'm interested in is finding the more scholarly books and journal articles, geared to the professional or academic historian. The colleges in ND don't have much to offer in these areas. That's why I'm trying to find someone with an academic background in ancient history who will guide me in further studies.

The ffollowing links include further information on the two titles mentionde this morning.

Click Here for Gifted Hands, by Ben Carson, MD

And Click Here for Landscapes of the Heart (Voices of the South Series) by Elizateth Spencer).

Harold, thank you for the clickable. "Landscapes of the Heart" is one I would like to read.

Hats, et al.. I volunteered at the Civic Center today - and that's one of the places where there are book discussions meeting to discuss Gifted Hands. I knew they had copies for sale, so I have purchased one. The group meets on the 2nd Monday of the month. I don't know that I'll get to any of those, but I know I'll enjoy reading it.

Hats, are you going to any of the discussions? What part of town?

Mary Z, I live in East Brainerd, very close to Hamilton Place Mall. I am glad you are reading the book too. I didn't know about the discussions at the Civic Center. I don't think I will make it to the discussions.

I really, really loved the book. I am trying to get my husband to read it. Now I have a special love for neurosurgeons. Can you imagine? It's really something how they work around the brain stem, etc.

Hats, there might be a session going on over there somewhere. The one I'm talking about is the North River CC near Northgate Mall in Hixson. I haven't started it yet...going to finish the one I'm into right now...but am looking forward to it. Maybe the library will have a program with the author like they did when we read Fannie Flagg's book.

MaryZ,

When Fannie Flagg came to town, my husband had a chance to meet her. She visited Chattanooga State. That's where he works. He said she is so friendly. The staff made a scrapbook for her filled with recipes. She is one of my favorite authors.

Do you know when they will choose the next book for the city?

Hats, not until they're through with this one, I'd guess. You might check with somebody at the downtown library and see if they know.

We went to Fannie Flagg when she was here - she was delightful!

Did you?? I love anything Fannie Flagg writes. Mary Z, it's good to have a neighbor here at Seniors. You are so friendly. I feel like I know you.

Hats - we really should get together in person sometime.

Hats .....the Elizabeth Spencer memoir is really good read. I read it over the week-end........

Mary Z, we should meet one day. Maybe before our next snow day.

Nancy L Smith, I am glad you mentioned it. I really like the sound of it.

Lazy Lady ND, good luck in your search.

Marvelle

Thanks Marvelle, but at this point it looks pretty hopeless.

I am curious as to how far back in antiquities you want to go? What years?

This is a delightful book. Full of wit and cameos of 10 Filipino Uncles. Although its not in bookstores, it can be gotten on the web at places alike Barnes and Noble. If you like positive biographies, I think you can dig on this one.

Click Here for the B&N catalaog entry for Say Uncle! Life in DC with my Filipino Uncles, by Nita Mondonedo Smith.

Howzat, my MAIN area of interest is from about 12,000 BCE to 1 BCE. Anything that involves the beginnings of civilization in the Near East and the bible lands. Also Egyptian and lately I've been interested in ancient China. One other area of interest is post-Roman Germany to about 1200 CE. The last one I'm having a really hard time finding books, articles, etc. I've found a couple, but they were in Old German and I couldn't make them out. So, looking for anything in translation. I am also very interested in the ancient languages--Akkadian, Sumerian, etc. I know: goofy, but that's what I'm passionate about. Ciao

Lazylady:-Too bad you weren't with us in the group discussing Durant's "Story of Civilization" when four years ago we began his first volume, "Our Oriental Heritage." We discussed all the ancient civilizations for eleven months before moving on to his second volume, "The Age of Greece." That might interest you too.
Fortunately for you all those thousands of postings were saved in Senior Net Archives. If you are interested, I'll give you the link.

Robby

Robert. As I've said so many times before, I read the entire series about a zillion years ago. It is find for a general discussion, survey-type, but not scholarly enough for me. Also, it is terribly outdated, now, what will all the recent and ongoing archaeological discoveries. Also, I studied Greek and Roman history in college. I'm looking for the NEW STUFF.

The Durants are not scholarly?

O woe, O woe. Give me a minute, folks. I feel faint.

A number of participants in Story of Civilization "read the entire series about a zillion years ago."
Yes, it is outdated -- to a certain extent but those participating who have already read the series find our discussion exhilirating and much more complete than just reading the books because we use links to take us to later information -- even as we read the book. Simply put -- it enriches the series.

Robby

I would think that taking classes on a graduate degree level might satisfy the need to communicate on a higher level. Most of us are simply learning a bit and having fun while doing it.

Stephanie, that's a great idea. I've been thinking of taking some university courses online for my special interests.

We can't resolve Lazy Lady's quandry but I do wish her well in her search.

Marvelle

Practically every participant in Story of Civilization would emphasize that we are most definitely not the equivalent of a class. We go at it in our own speed (there is no "teachers guide,") we banter in such a way as is never seen in a grad class, there are no levels we have to reach, there is no grading -- putting it succinctly, we have FUN!
This is what has caused it to continue for 4 1/2 years.

Robby

Robby, I think the fun is important and that is what Senior Net is all about from my point of view, but it sounded like the other woman wanted and needed serious discussions.

I just finished The Winter Soldiers by Ketchum which had been recommended by.....Potsherd, I believe. (Excuse me if I have the wrong person.) The book was wonderful, esp. since I had just read 1776. It added so much additional information and was very readable.

Now I'm on to Washington's Crossing, also recommended. I have just started it and already am engrossed. I thought it was fascinating and astounding the way it begins by stating that the crossing of the Delaware, Christmas 1776, and the resulting victory for the Americans was the most important single event in the history of the United States. Isn't that amazing! The book is one of a series about pivotal moments in history - events that occurred by decision that changed history.

I'd love to read a biography of Nathanael Greene. Does anyone have a recommendation? Thanks!

Marni

For David McCullough and/or JOhn Adams fans

At 3:00 today on BookTV a book group is discussing the book "John Adam" and at 12 noon tomorrow there will be a three hour interview w/ Taylor Branch who wrote a trilogy about MKL and the Civil Rights Movement......jean

Mabel, I enjoyed that show so much. I think on the same show another book title was mentioned. I ordered it. It is titled "The Colors of Courage: Gettysburg's Hidden History" (Hardcover, 2004) Author: Margaret S. Creighton

I am finding "The Bookseller of Kabul" fascinating reading. For one thing, I had not realized September 11 was a watershed date in other parts of the world, too. A number of things seem to be 'before' or 'after' September 11, and the date is used w/o explanation as assuming anyone who reads the book understands perfectly its significance. I would not have expected this in a book about Afghanistan, by a Norwegian journalist.

The book looks at everything through the eyes of a real Afghan family, which keeps it personal and interesting with the contrasts between the Afghan way of life and our own.

Babi

Before Christmas I read Gore Vidal's Lincoln and loved it. My husband (what a guy) got me Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin for Christmas. I'm reading it now. It's wonderful! Goodwin compares Lincoln to three of his gifted rivals for the presidency - Bates, Seward, and Chase. I think I want to read a biography of William Seward next. What an interesting person he was.

My husband knows my taste in books! I came home from the library last week with Washington's General : Nathanael Greene and the Triumph of the American Revolution by Terry Golway. My husband spotted it on the table and said, "Great - I got that for you for your birthday." So, I took it back to the library unread, waiting for my birthday. (Unfortunately, it's not for awhile. Oh, well, plenty of others books waiting for me!)

Marni

Hi Marni and Babi,

I want to read almost every book you have listed. I definitely want to read "The Bookseller of Kabul."

I think Doris Kearns Goodwin is a wonderful lady. I have seen her in different interviews.

Marni, I can't believe you have a book about Nathaniel Greene. I will always remember is great attitude during the Revolutionary War. I will look for it at my library. I would love to read Gore's Lincoln too.

Click Here for "The Bookseller of Kabul" by Asne Seierstad, Ingrid Christophersen (Translator). Read the Publishers material and short review material from critics. Thank you Bibi for introducint this book that would certainly make a timely discussion topic.

Click Here for "Lincoln" by Gore Vidal. This is one of a series of Vidal titles styled fictional chronicles of historical characters. The one I have read is "Julian". It was a biographical account of the Roman Emperor Julian, a nephew of Constintine the Great, I suppose the book might also be called a historical novel since it puts the historical character in a fictional setting. In my judgment Vidal did a good job of preserving historical fact in the telling of his story. I found the reading most interesting leaving "Julian the Apostate" in my mind my favorate Roman Emperor.

Today the Gore Historical chronicle that is of the most interest to me is"Burr". A few years ago Ella and I were looking for a good biography of Aaron Burr for a discussion. We did not find one of the quality we sought and went to others such as Franklin instead. In the back of my mind I have been thinking of the possibility of offering the Gore historical Novel instead. It is not on the drawing board but it might happen in the future.

Harold: I would definitely join in the Gore "Burr" discussion. Gore's "Lincoln," although a historical novel, had so much fact in it, from what I have read from other sources about Lincoln. And it was just a wonderful book, so readable and interesting with wonderful tidbits of information that Gore had uncovered in his research.

Burr sounds like such an interesting and strange personality. His name came up on the news a couple of days ago. When the story of Chaney's hunting accident was broadcast on TV, they said it was the first time a Vice President had shot anyone since Aaron Burr!!! I had to laugh even though the incident is so terribly unfortunate.

Yes, Hats, I was so excited to find the biography of Nathanael Greene, "America's most forgotten patriot"! I just loved reading about him in our 1776 discussion and in some following books I read (The Winter Soldiers and Washington's Crossing) so I searched for a biography of Greene. And there it was sitting on the library shelf! And to think my husband had already bought it for me!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805070664/002-9481496-2562445?v=glance&n=283155

I'm also going to search for a bio of Henry Knox. My husband said he searched for one in book stores and couldn't find anything. I know there is at least one out there: Henry Knox: George Washington's Confidant, General of Artillery, and America's First Secretary of War by Thomas J. Lonergan.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0897255151/002-9481496-2562445?v=glance&n=283155

Marni

One of his books that I am familar with is "Texas" (Click Here) that was give to me by a Baltimore friend after her Texas visit. In this book instead of putting a historical character in a fictional setting as Vidal, Michener put his fictional characters in a historical setting. His story is that of stereotypical Texans: oil man, rancher, genteel descendant of Southern aristocracy, Chicano, etc; it is their multi-generational living reaction to the historical events of the state from Spanish times to the modern day generation. It was quite a tome; I probably did not complete reading of the whole book, but I did read it from the beginning through the Texas Revolution, and its 10-year existence as an independent republic. Again in my judgment it seemed historically accurate.

Michener appears to have used this writing stratagem/formula in his creation of books about two other U.S. States. ”Hawaii” and ”Alaska” and one foreign country, ”Poland”.

Just started "Manhunt: The 12-day chase for Lincoln's Killer. The reviews are quite good__ "James Swanson has written a terrific narrative of the hunt for Lincoln's killers that will mesmerize the reader from start to finish just as the actual manhunt mesmerized the entire nation, It is a triumphant book."- Doris Kerns Goodwin " This riveting hour-by-hour account of Lincoln's assassination, Booth's escape, and the pursuit that finally ran down and killed him is a truly remarkable narrative. Even those familiar with the story will find fascinating new details here."- James McPherson .....potsherd

I will look for Manhunt, since I have always been interested in Lincoln and the murder. Michener is an excellent fiction writer, but his stories infuriate people who live in the areas he writes about. I know Hawaiaans, Texans and I come from the eastern shore that he wrote about.All of us agree that he took a historical idea and then ran with it.. The Eastern shore was not much like what he wrote about, but I would guess many people enjoyed it. I know that the Texas legislature years ago wrote a condemation of that book.

Thank you for your post on "Manhunt" by James Swanson. Click Here for more information on this book from the publisher and comment from critics.

This looks like another historical manhunt story; I am currently reading another. "Wilderness Manhunt" by Robert L Weddle. This is the story of the late 17th century Spanish search for La Salle and his French Colony on the Gulf of Mexico coast

That's an Interesting comment from Stephanie in message #604. I am about as much a Texan as exists today being a Native and living here all my life. Yet I saw nothing in it to take as offense.

Like I said the Book is a real tome and I did not read it all. Again I found nothing offensive in the parts I read; it seemed to follow the history of the time real well. I can not take offence if the story included the un-savory account of the poor, uneducated, ambitious, unrestrained immigrants from the cities of the U.S. and Europe that flooded the province when it opened to immigration first limited, but after 1836 wide open. As Thomas Hardy, in "Native Son" made Egdon Heath like a character in his novel so Michener made geographical Texas (and the character of its people) a character in his fictional story.

Thank you Stephanie for your comment; I had no idea the Texas Legislature was so up-set!

I had a good friend at the time who was one of the movers and shakers in Dallas society. Michener had used some of the locals as sort of models for characters and boy were they mad.

I loved "Hawaii", but got bored with "Texas", despite the fact (or because of it) that I am Texan. Does anybody remember the purported subtitle of "Hawaii"? It was "There Was Frigging in the Rigging", a reference to the early colonists couples who set out in their sailing ship, and arrived with most of the wives pregnant. Now I ask you, how could anyone forget a title like that?

Babi

The thing I remember most about Hawaii was how they picked up a large supply of bananas on their trip to Hawaii and their sober leader forced them to eat them all, no matter how ripe or how rotten and no matter how sick of them they were. He didn't want them to waste the food.

Picked up an interesting book for fifty cents recently. Hardback.. by Thomas Hoving.. Making the Mummies dance. It is about his life as director of the Metropolitan Museum. His ego is enormous and he has quite horrid descriptions thus far of the movers and shakers in NY, but all in all, he is funny. I am really just starting, so he has just been accepted as the Director and is resigning as Director of Parks under Lindsey..

--- Click Here for the archive of Ginny's 1998 discussion of the Thomas Hoving book, "Making the Mummies Dance." Click Here for information on the book from the publisher and short critical comment.

And click HERE for Ginny's latest news about Thomas Hoving

on the presidents images and how they have been portrayed in movies and on tv. They only talked about the best known, most important presidents, including Lincoln. It was fun and informative, hope you didin't miss it. I assume they won't repeat it ------THIS being president's day and all,.......jean

Thank you Harold and Pat. I especially want to read the Ginny's archived discussion.

Hi Mabel, I missed that one. I hope it is repeated. I did order "John Adams." I haven't started it yet. It looks like another David McCullough goodie. I wonder what is he working on now. Somewhere, I thought he did mention his next book. Not sure.

I am still mesmerized by the Mummies dancing. Hoving indicates that the museum world at that time was heavily into smuggling treasures. Now of course all of the countries want them back and probably should get them. I think that most of the treasures are better treated in their original environment. Now paintings.. different story entirely. Hoving is funny.. The rich in the book come off mostly badly.. Wanting to be babied and toadied.. Anything for the collection. Nancy , Hovings wife is the only one thus far, that I would like to meet. She seems real indeed.

George Washington's two page hand written resignation from the Continental Army will be acquired by the state of Maryland where he resigned his commission in 1783. The document reputed to be one of the most important documents held in private hands. The estimated value of i.2 million dollars however will be sold to the state of Maryland for 600,000 dollars by the Maryland owners. Of further interest a letter from James McHenry an eyewitness to Washington's resignation and signing describing the event accompanies the Washington document.

Sure would have been a hit on the Antique Road Show_______potsherd

That's pretty cool, potsherd. All my life I took it for granted that, yeah, of course Washington resigned from the army when the war was over. He wanted to go home to his plantation. But, when you think of all of the military leaders in history who took advantage of their power to take over a country because they were on a power trip....it really is very special. Good old George. We were pretty lucky!

Click Here for a Baltimore Sun new article concerning Maryland’s purchase of the Washington resignation letter. Click Here for the text of the resignation message as delivered to the Continental Congress Feb 23, 1783. GW's handwritten record of this message is apparently the subject of the Maryland purchase.

Watch for our upcoming discussion of HIS EXCELLENCY, GEORGE WASHINGTON, by Joseph Ellis. I believe it is going to be in May, is that correct, Harold? It's an excellent book and you will be all the more grateful that our country had such a leader at a time we desperately needed one; what would we have done without him!

Ella, I will mark May on my calendar.

Potsheard, that is very interesting about the George Washington document. It's a miracle for the state of Md. to obtain it for $600,000 instead of $1.2 million. That is a real bargain.

Harold, thank you for the links about the document. Reading GW's words make me a bit teary eyed. That is really something to behold.

I agree that we were lucky in our early years. We seemed to have had leaders who genuinely cared about freedom and equality, maybe not equality for all, but at least the theory of equality. Letting people freely choose what type of government suits them is a good idea, that the US seems to have forgotten. Our type of government simply does not suit other nations.. or at least some of the other nations. A theocracy would not suit us, but possibly for some religions is a good idea.

Harold: Thanks for the text of Washington's farewell. I have never read it before.

Would recommend The Desert Queen, a biography of Gertrude Bell, an Englishwoman, who traveled on her own throughout the Middle East and who lived out her life in Baghdad. She started the Museum, worked with the English government, and help draw the boundary of what is now Iraq.

Who is the author of the Bell bio, kidsal? I've just come across her name in another book about adventurous women.

The Wilder Shores of Love, by Lesley Blanch. 1954 'The lives of four extraordinary women - their romantic involvements...their unconventional adventures. Four seething but most enjoyable studies in headlong nonconformity.' 'the remarkable adventures of four well-born Englishwomen who sought romantic involvement in the exotic East.'

I'm sure this one will be familiar to some of you. I found it on my shelf, while looking for something on life in the Seraglio in the heady days of the Ottoman empire. One of the four was not English, but French, and did not go looking for adventure. She was abducted by pirates on the high seas, and landed in the Sultan's harem. The rest of her life she seems to have spent converting the Turks to French ways. Extremely interesting.

Wow, Jonathan! Sounds interesting! I can't imagine, though, that it really would be romantic to be kidnapped on the sea by pirates and enslaved by the Turks - which really did happen a lot in the Mediterranean apparently.

Author of Desert Queen is Janet Wallach. You can read some of Gertrude Bell's diaries online at http://www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk/diaries/d1464.htm

Oh me, I read the Wilder Shores of Love many many years ago. I was struck by the Frenchwoman, since she turned a truly ugly situation into a comfortable existance. Still I did not envy any of the women.

Click Here for the publisher's information on "Desert Queen" by Janet Wallach

Isn't this the story of Josephine's (as in Napoleon Bonaparte's Josephine) sister?

"One of the four was not English, but French, and did not go looking for adventure. She was abducted by pirates on the high seas, and landed in the Sultan's harem. The rest of her life she seems to have spent converting the Turks to French ways. Extremely interesting."

And then because Napoleon divorced Josephine, her sister did something, or her son, and the Treaty of Bucharest was signed. Didn't I just learn this on SeniorNet last month?

I picked up The Bookseller of Kabul after hearing about it again on Jeopardy. The category was literary places, including the

Snows of __________, The Bookseller of __________, Out of __________, A Passage to __________, and Reading Lolita in __________.

Of course SeniorNetters would have gotten all of them. All the players missed Kabul, even though the clue indicated it was a city in Afghanistan.

It's an interesting read and I will probably finish it quickly, yet the author misses some clues that I think a more culturally astute person would have picked up had they been given the same opportunity. Reporters spend a lot of time looking for events and basing their conclusions on tying "events" together. She gives the clues but misses their significance.

The reason 9/11 is significant in the lives of Afghans is that the USA invaded Afghanistan and overthrew the Taliban in response to the al Qaeda terrorist acts against the USA on that day.

After the USA overthrew the Taliban, Afghans were able to contact family for the first time in ages, go back to Kabul and check on stalls, go to Afghanistan from Pakistan, Germany, the USA, wherever they were to visit family. The day the Taliban fell, Afghans all over the world started buying plane tickets to Pakistan and passage over the passes or tickets to Iran and coyotes across the border to Afghanistan.

There were Afghans killed in the WTC, also. However, its big significance is the tie to the fall of the Taliban, not the terrorist acts in the USA.

Kleo

Harold and Ella _ somewhere down the line_ this might be an interesting read and discussion. As "kids" many of us listened to the two on the radio and in particular the "Fireside chats", ect. Two fascinating individuals!!

In this magisterial work of history, Jon Meacham describes the complex emotional connection between Franklin Roosevelt and Winston Churchill, the two men who led the free world to victory in World War II. It was a unique friendship, with the president and prime minister spending enormous amounts of time together (about one hundred days during the war). Amid cocktails, cigarettes, and cigars, they met, often secretly, in places as far-flung as Washington, Hyde Park, Casablanca, and Tehran, talking to each other of war, illness, and family. Jon Meacham chronicles the moments they spent deciding the course of World War II--where the Allies would land, who would control the atomic bomb, and what kind of world would emerge from the conflict. "Franklin and Winston is a psychological portrait of their alliance: what they thought of each another and how each tried to manage and influence the other. It is also the story of their marriages and their families, two fascinating clans caught up in the greatest global conflict in history. Drawing on new research--including interviews with the few surviving people who spent time in Roosevelt and Churchill's company--and previously untapped archives, Jon Meacham has written the definitive account of this remarkable and historic friendship.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Yes. this would make a great discuussion title. Marnie, Bill, any of you DL's who are inclined to offer it will have my participation and support. I will consider it seriously this fall if it is still unspoken for. Click Here for "Franklin and Winston" by Jon Meacham.

I've always been intriqued w/ both of those guys and their friendship. Doris Kearns Goodwin talked a bit about W's visits in "No Ordinary Time" and how FDR tried to stay up and drink (competing) w/ W and Eleanor would get upset. I've read Elliot Roosevelts' mysteries and in one of them there's a murder in the White House while Winston is there. He describes Winston's personality and behavior (rather quirky) and i wondered how much of it was real. Elliot obviously knew Winston.......jean

Hi Harold,

Thank you for the clickable. I would love to know about the relationship between Franklin and Churchill too.

Potsherd, thanks for mentioning it.

Marni mentioned "Truman" by David McCullough. Is it possible to consider it for a future discussion too? I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask.

Can you just imagine if Franklin and Winston would have had email available to them!! Wow!_ I can smell the smoking wires and transistors.

Hats, Bill led a discussion of "Trueman" by David McCullough in 2002. To date we have never repeated a discussion although I am going to break that taboo by repeating "Undaunted Courage" by Stephen Ambrose in August. Perhaps the Truman Biography too deserves a repeat? Click Here for the 2002 archive.

Harold, thank you. I should have checked the archives first.

I am looking forward to "Undaunted Courage."

I'm pleased to announce that tomorrow is March 1 and our Founding Mothers book discussion will officially begin!!!!!

Marni

I forget who mentioned the book, DESERT QUEEN by Janet Wallach, but I want to thank you and all of you who post your recommendations for books. They are read by many of us and it is such a pleasure to go to the Library and know you will come out with something that you can spend a few pleasant hours reading.

I've just opened the book and am amazed by the maps in the front of the book; how little I know about the region and I wonder how many of us know the history of that area. It seems WWI made a huge difference and it would be fascinating to know how and why it was divided into the various countries. Perhaps the book will tell me a bit of it.

Thanks again.

I am glad you are enjoying Desert Queen. I think it would make a wonderful movie.

Has anyone read that one? I am about 1/4th way through and find it fascinating. It was a winner of the Pulitzer Prize the author is Joseph K Ellis ...perhaps you have read and discussed this book but reading it you come away with the feeling WE WERE SO LUCKY The author has chosen eight of the most prominent political leaders in the early republic ...in alphabetical order ,, Abigail and John Adams ( I am glad Abigail is there ) Aaron Burr, Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamiliton, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison and George Washington.If it hasnt been discussed I think it deserves to be .. anna

annafair, there's a current discussion on Cokie Roberts' book, Founding Mothers. I'm sure somebody will make a link to it for us.

Hi, annafair! I'm the DL for Founding Mothers. We're having a most interesting discussion about the women who influenced the Founding Fathers. Founding Mothers, by Cokie Roberts, is a wonderful book!

I believe, but am not positive, that a SeniorNet discussion of Founding Fathers has taken place.

Here's a link to Founding Mothers. If you don't want to wade through the pre-discussion, go straight to the March 1 discussion start by clicking on the Discussion Starts Here button in the Header.

"---Founding Mothers ~ Cokie Roberts ~ March 1"

Marni

Click Here for "Founding Brothers" by Joseph Ellis. Though Senior's Net Books has never done a formal discussion of this title it has been frequently mentioned in connection with several of our history discussions and on this board over the past several years.

You know I now fear that in recent discussions such as in "Founding Mothers" and quite likely others, I mistakenly have refered to it as "Founding Fathers." "Founding Brothers" is correct.

Founding brothers I am not sure since I purchased it sometime ago as paperback and just got around to reading it says it was 14 dollars on the back but I am sure I got in on sale for much less . I had no special reason to purchase it except I was interested in the comments about the content and the comments of people who read it . And am really enjoying it ...and since if your purchase is 25 dollars you get free shipping. I always look for the books on sale and choose those that intrigue me. have only had a few what I would call losers ..so still feel I have come out ahead. With paperback for Dr J and Mr H plus other stories by RLS I have something to keep be occupied while I recuperate from my dental surgeries . Books always help in that way ..thank goodness . anna

Harold, thank you for the clickable. I would love to read "Founding Brothers."

Click Here for information on an Interesting book by Geoffrey Wawro. The title is "The Franco-Prussian War- The German Conquest of France In 1870 - 1871." It is an exquisite hard cover book given to me by a friend who after reading it passed it to me. When I read it I too will pass it on to another.

The author Geoffrey is a History Professor at the Naval War College. It seems a well-written history of the event that marked Germany's coming out as a unified European power. It was the first of the three war between "Prussia led by Otto von Bismarck and France under Napoleon III ( the “Last”); the only one of the three wars that didn't involve most of the nations of the world before its end. I begun reading it last night and judge its author, Geoffrey Wawro, a worthy peer of the likes of McCullough, Ellis, and Ambrose though perhaps his writing is a tad bit more slanted toward the academic reader.

Though the link above is too the hard cover edition, a paperback edition is available .

You should have no trouble finding "Founding Brothers" from just about any library.

Also an inexpensive paperback is available. The link I posted yesterday is probably the hard cover. I generally link the hard cover because often the hard cover link contains more publisher and critic information.

Harold,

Yes, I am sure my library will have a copy of "Founding Brothers." Thank you.

What ever his name is. My two daughters excelled in mathematics through and including Calculus, thank you. Our new head of Department of Transportation in Delaware is a women with her degree in civil engineering. Also the President of Harvard may not be aware that female college attendance presently exceeds male students. Which happens to be of concern to many college presidents: for some reason.

Terri Schiavo's husband has written a new book called "Terri." It tells his side of the story. I don't know if it is in the stores yet. I would like to hear his side of the story. Is anybody else interested in this story?

Manhunt: The 12-day chase for Lincoln’s killer_ by James L. Patterson. 393 pages

The book had received favorable reviews and I had never fully studied the Booth conspiracy so I purchased a copy. The initial chapters where a little tedious however the story soon turned into a page turner. Of all the many characters involved one I found interesting was Thomas A. Jones who was a Confederate agent who operated from his farm on the banks of the Potomac river. Yhe following particularly describes this interesting person: “ Confederate agent and river boatman who during the war had ferried hundreds of men and the occasional female spy across the Potomac river between Maryland and Viriginia. Some nights he made two trips in his small rowboat. In addition he transported the Confederate mail between the two states and sent south Union newspapers providing intelligence to Richman. Jones, was an indispensable, mysterious, and laconic secret agent fighting the shadow war along the borders between the Union and the rebel territory.” Jones, hid Booth and Davis Herold in an a dense pine thicket for four days until he could move them south. For history buffs in particular the book is a gem. Side comments: most who have some knowledge of the assassination are aware of Dr, Samuel A. Mudd who set Booths broken leg who also was a rebel sympathizer I had a customer who was a decendent of Mudd: Dr Stewart Mudd ( MD) who was chairman of Medical microbiology at the University of Pennsylvania Medical School. He and his family worked through time to try to clear Dr, Samuel A. Mudd’s name. The book describes in great detail Dr Mudd’s involvement with Booth and Herold.

Speaking of Lincoln's assassination....I recently finished Team of Rivals: The Political Genius of Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin. It is one of the very best books of nonfiction I have ever read. Wonderfully fascinating and a simply beautiful portrait of Lincoln and his relationships with several political rivals who joined him in his Cabinet. I grew to love Lincoln as I read this book. You can tell the author loved him.

-----------------

Tonight I finished Nelson: Love & Fame by Edgar Vincent, a biography of Lord Horatio Nelson. What a good book of Britain's greatest naval hero! Wonderful story of the man and his charismatic affect on his men, the British navy in the Napoleonic era, and the love between Nelson and the notorious beauty, Emma Hamilton.

MARNI, "Team of Rivals" does sound good. Do you think one would need to be knowledgable re. politics to enjoy it? I must admit the ins and outs of political machinations find no rooting soil in my brain. I have been grateful to TV's 'Commander in Chief' for presenting the subject in a way even I can follow...and enjoy.

Babi

Harold,

Will you tell us the best book to buy or get from the library for the Lewis and Clark discussion? Will the discussion last more than a month?

Here is a book that is hard to put down..... "The Worst Hard Times" by Timothy Egan.......It is a history of what happened in Okla.,Texas, Colorado, and Kansas, also part of New Mexico, during the settlement of this part of the U.S. and the aftermath of tearing up all the grasslands etc.......Some of my family left this area and came up into Missouri.........now I think I know why.........a really good read...........

Babi: Re ""Team of Rivals" does sound good. Do you think one would need to be knowledgable re. politics to enjoy it?"

I was not the slightest bit knowledgable about the politics of the period when I read the book. For some reason, I'm usually not interested in politics. I find I am very interested in history and the lives of famous people, though.

This book was about the personal and professional lives of Lincoln and several of his Cabinet members and their families, and the problems leading up to and during the Civil War. There are many interesting tidbits from letters and journals. For example, at the end it goes into fascinating detail about the events of the day of Lincoln's assassination and the attempt on Seward's life. The author spends a lot of time showing examples of how politically savvy Lincoln was in understanding events and people and in manipulating people with his words, stories, and his charm to get them to do what he wanted.

Marni

Marni and Babi,

I thought "Team of Rivals" might have too much politics. Politics is very hard for me to understand too. Now I feel better. I would like "Team of Rivals."

Hats and All;

Click Here for a Lewis and Clark Bibliography that I compiled several years ago and up-dated last year. As of today I still consider the 1996 Ambrose title the best for a seniors net discussion. This is the first title listed in the bibliography. The Landon T. Jones 2004 title (#3 in the bibliography) is longer (700 Pages). It should now be available in paperback but I have not heard much about it from the press and experience tells me that shorter popular orientated writings are best for Seniors net discussions.

As of now any of you might read the Ambrose book, and perhaps the #3, Ronda book, Lewis & Clark among the Indians. I found this title most interesting since it interpreted the expedition as a diplomatic mission to the Indians. Again I thought its slant might be a bit too specialized for our more general interest. I am familiar with all the other books listed except the newer Landon T. Jones entry. I will try to get it and if any of you are familiar with it or want to read it, your comment will be most welcome here.

Click Here to sign up to participate in His Excellency, George Washington, by Joseph Ellis, proposed for May 1. This is and easy short 278 page popular biography of our foremost founding father. Every one is welcome to join our discussion that will be complete before the beginning of the end of May holiday.

Check it out, Ella and I hope you will participate!

Harold,

Thank you for all the information. I love reading these nonfiction books. Cokie Roberts' book, "Founding Mothers" is wonderful. These two new discussions will follow along so well.

Thanks, Marni. That's what I needed to know. I'm going to see if my library has it. (Either of them.) <g> Babi

so here's to Cokie, Marni and Joan for a great discussion and great facilitation on your part. .......jean

Pushing Ultimates: Fundamentals of Authentic Self-knowledge, by Lew Paz, published this year, is an amazing feat of organization and clarification of a vast spectrum of pertinent teachings and discoveries, a work of true philosophical/spiritual contemplation, which is slowly but surely being recognized throughout the international academic community, as well as becoming a subject of keen interest amongst the "coffee house intelligentsia." James Cox, Editor-in-Chief of the Midwest Book Review, chose this book as "Reviewer's Choice March 2006." In his review he said,

"In Pushing Ultimates: Fundamentals of Authentic Self-knowledge, Lew Paz draws upon many years of his personal spiritual, philosophical, and metaphysical quest to understand human nature in general, and himself in particular. Pushing Ultimates incorporates what Paz has discovered through philosophy, science, psychology, theology, mysticism, the history of religion, and the writings of such original thinkers and scholars as Jung, Aurobindo, Heidegger, Einstein, Gödel, Gurdjieff and others. Highly recommended reading, the 397-page text of Pushing Ultimates (enhanced with several pages of chapter notes) is eminently accessible for the non-specialist general reader seeking an in-depth, sophisticated, erudite, sometimes iconoclastic approach to the acquisition of genuine self- knowledge. Pushing Ultimates is "must" reading for students of philosophy, metaphysics, and those committed to the seeking self-enlightenment in a clamoring and all-too-superficial world."

For more information, go to www.plumbell.com

Book Statistics: ISBN 13: 978-0-9773733-9-0 ISBN 10: 0-9773733-9-8 LCCN: 2005909020 Book dimensions: 5.38" x 8.38" Trade Paperback Book Length: 400 pages Manufactured by Tri-State Litho, New York

Kingsfool, I think I'd have to be 18 again, and tackling college to even try this one. It sounds like a wonderful reference for just about everything I wanted to know, back when I was young, ambitious and energetic...and thought I had all the time in the world.

Babi

I'm reading Bruce Feidler's "Where God Was Born" and enjoying it more than his "Walk Through the Bible". Only up to page 35, and I've found info. I didn't know before. And here I thought I was up on this stuff.

Babi

The History Channel today - Apr 8 - is focusing on all the presidents from GW to GWB? Ironic sets of initials, uh?......jean

We don't have cable (have enough trouble watching all the programs we want to see on reg. TV), so I don't get to see the fine shows on History, Discovery, etc.

I'm having some fine arguments with Fiedler, in a manner of speaking. I'm learning a lot from his "Where God Was Born", but I also find him taking some rather extreme views in some areas. I find myself double-checking Bible history, taking notes, and mentally disputing some of his commentary. Now I like a book that can make me do that.

Babi

Our feminist book discussion group, sponsored by the Older Women's Network, is interested in books about the lives of women. We have just finished reading and discussing "Wild Swans", which all of us found fascinating. Does everyone know this book? It's about the lives of 3 generations of women in one family - grandmother was a concubine, mother a dedicated Communist, daughter Jung Chang a Red Guard, before she became totally disillusioned by the treatment of her parents during the Cultural Revolution. Jung Chang has now written a hefty biography of Mao Zedong, which I have just plowed through. It is terrifying.

I would welcome any suggestions of books which can benefit from a feminist analysis.

Regretablly you missed Marni's last month discussion of Cokie Roberts', "Founding Mothers." Click Here for the Archive.

This book seems ideally suited for your interest. Click Here for more informition from the Publisher and critics.

I don't feel we have sufficient interest at this time to support the proposed discussion of "His Excellency, George Washington." . We will therefore withdraw the present offering, but will re-consider it this winter. Perhaps we have had a slight overdose of American Revolution discussions over the initial three months of this year?

Also I am going to look to see if there is an available specific title relative to the Constitution Convention in 1787 and the ratification debate that followed. If any of you know of a suitable title or have further comment on this subject, please post it here now.

The result of this deliberation was the real initial launch of the United States on the road to its present form as a Federal Republic. I will make further comment on this subject on the Non-Fiction board over the next weeks. Please keep in touch there.

Some readers may have recollection's of FDR's Fire Side chats. They typically where the talk of the neighborhood before and after FDR's "chats" His thirty-one Fire Side chats are recorded for the first time in a single book: divide into two parts_"The Domestic Fireside Chats and Part 11_"The Foreign Policy Fireside Chats. A quote from the book dust cover" Franklin Delano Roosevelt went on the radio to talk things over with the people of the United States. Those fireside chats,characterized by a disarming frankness and an informal and conversational tone,represent an unprecedented presidential attempt to achieve intimacy with the nation. The American people listened,gathered around their radios in living rooms and kitchens across the country, as President Roosevelt discussed virtually every major problem facing the United States at home and abroad." I was serving in the U.S. Navy when our Commander in Chief_President Roosevelt died. As a Quartermaster I lowered our ships flag to half mast. There was a general crew reaction running from stunned,too bewilderment, a general quietness and sadness. For many of the crew he was the only president we had ever known. Truman ,was an unknown!

I am just now reading "No Ordinary Times" and the book refers often to his fireside chats........Got it from used books on Amazon in pristine condition for some ridiculous price........I hardly ever by new books any more.......plenty of "old" ones I have not read and this is a good one............Am also reading "The Cold War, a new history" by John Lewis Gaddis........The cold war of course reaches way back to the aftermath of WW2.........the two fit together nicely..........

Catherine Drinker Bowen's "Miracle at Philadelphia" - about the constitutional convention. She's a native Philadelphian, descendant of two old philadelphia families. One of her ancestors may have been a signer, but i'm not positive about that.......jean

Thank you Jean for the Comment. I'll get more information on the "Miracle at Philadelphia" title and report back

Some info regarding the Convention.

Miracle at Philadelphia: The Constitutional Convention

James Madison, Father of the Constitution

I. The Setting of the Philadelphia Convention

A) Early decision to re-write, rather than tinker with the Articles of Confederation

Open agreement secretly arrived at--Washington's plea

C) Intent of the Convention

1) Economic --Charles Beard--protect property rights and make America safe from democracy. 2) Idealistic--make a perfect Union

3) Pragmatic--dealing with the question of sovereignty. Placing common interests over regional or personal concerns.

II. The Participants A. 55 delegates from 12 states 1) Young (average age 42), professional (over half were lawyers), men of economic substance 2) Many were Revolutionary War veterans

3) Absent: Thomas Jefferson, Patrick Henry, other Revolutionary War heroes.

B. Key Participants 1) Washington--president of the convention 2) Madison--researched every previous republic

a) Large republic is not only possible, it's preferred

b) Popularly elected officials with sovereignty in the hands of the people, not the states

3) Franklin--81 years old. The steadying influence III. The Compromises A. Great Compromise (bicameral legislature representing both people and states) 1. Virginia Plan or Large States Plan(Edmund Randolph) a) 2 house legislature with representation based on population for both b) President and courts chosen by legislature

2. New Jersey Plan (William Patterson) a) Congress with each state having l vote b) separate executive and judicial branches

c) increased powers of Congress

3. Great Compromise a) Lower house membership dependent on population b) Upper house with two members from each state

c) All revenue bills must begin in lower house

B. Three-Fifths Compromise (60% of slaves counted for representation and taxation; no Congressional interference with slavery for 20 years) 1. Non-slavery states wanted slaves counted for taxation, but not representation and wanted an end to importation of slaves 2. Slave states wanted slaves counted for representation, but not taxation and no interference with slave trade by the federal government

C. Commerce Compromise (no tax on exports, simple majority needed to pass commerce bills) 1. Cotton and tobacco producing states wanted restriction of taxes on exports and all commerce bills to be passed by a two-thirds vote of Congress 2. Northern industrial states wanted federal tariffs to keep up out cheaper European products and raise revenues for the government.

IV. Ratification A. Because of fear of opposition from states, only 9 of the 13 were needed for the Constitution to take effect B. Because of opposition from state legislatures, conventions elected by the people were given authority to approve or reject Constitution.

C. Federalists vs. Antifederalists

1) Most Federalists were wealthy and well-educated andsought the creation of a more powerful central government 2) Most Antifederalists were farmers who were loyal primarily to their state governments

a) Feared taxation power of federal government b) Republican government could not rule a large nation

D. Federalist Papers--most influential political literature of the time 1) Argued that limitations on governmental power were built into the Constitution 2) Need for strength to earn respect abroad

E. Promise of Bill of Rights added to the Constitution helped persuade opponents to ratify it.

Please cite this source when appropriate: Feldmeth, Greg D. "U.S. History Resources" http://home.earthlink.net/~gfeldmeth/USHistory.html (31 March 1998).

I came across a book today that looked like it would be of interest to some of the readers here. It is "The Big Oyster", by Mark Kushdev(?). It's about the oyster industry of New York harbor, back in its heydey, when New York could have been called "The Big Oyster" instead of "The Big Apple". Supposed to be a very good story on that period of New York and the oyster industry. Not the sort of book that I usually read, but I might change my mind if I get back some good reports on it.

Babi

I like it - The Big Oyster!

Me too! Sounds interesting.

Click Here for B&N/Publisher/Critic information and comment on the “Big Oyster- The History of the Half Shell,” by Mark Kurlansky. Well tt would be interesting to hear “the big oyster” as a synonym for N.Y. City. I wonder where the current synonym , the “Big Apple” came from? Does anyone know?

The oyster has had quite a history as a table favorite of north European cultures. Samuel Pepys in his diary often mentions them in his 1660’s daily account of his life in London. Earlier the food had figured prominently in the subsistence of the Jamestown colony during its early years, and long before that it had been the major source of food for our Texas Karankawa Indians as well as countless other primitive costal cultures throughout the would.As late as the first half of the 20th century Oysters were September through April (the months with an “r” in it) favorites in my South Texas family. They would come from our Gulf coast to be fried or eaten raw with a red sauce made with catsup flavored with lemon or better lime juice and perhaps a drop of Tabasco. Later I came to like the New Orleans oyster loaf in which the fried oysters were served inside the scooped shell of a loaf of French bread. I also liked them raw covered with Remoulade Sauce, a mixture of mayonnaise paprika, garlic, mustard, and Tabasco. Also no seafood gumbo could be considered complete with out the inclusion of oysters.

Alas--- we don’t eat oysters anymore! Too much pollution I guess; in any case the inordinately high danger of hepatitis and or just a common case of the “grippers” has left me oysterless for at least the past 30 years. I seemed to have transferred my shellfish urge to shrimp or crab.

I think the “Big Oyster” title is the type of book that would make a great discussion. BiBi- How about it?

I still eat oysters! I love them! One of my favorite memories of my trip to New Orleans is our trips to the Acme Oyster House to have oysters and beer. We had oysters on the half-shell - so inexpensive there - and fried oyster "po' boys." Yummy!

Connecticut's State Shellfish is the Eastern Oyster (Crassostrea virginica). They grow in Long Island Sound and in other tidal areas. There was a problem for awhile because the water was polluted, but there's been a big cleanup effort and much of the shellfish is safe to eat now.

I don't like oysters. I just like to think about the pearls which come from oysters. That's amazing!

We eat oysters - but only cooked ones. Yum!

Not as a leader, HAROLD. It is not the type of book I normally read, and generally do so on the recommendation of SeniorNetters. If someone recommends the book and would like to lead it, I'll be happy to join in.

Right now I'm drawing to the end of Feiler's "Where God Was Born". It has gone slowly, not because the book isn't good, but because it has been so challenging. I'm not just reading it, I'm getting up to check out the author's references, find add'l info., etc. I often find myself 'arguing' with him, but also agreeing with the major points he is making. IMO, an important book.

Babi

Gosh, I'm still plugging away on McCullough's Truman. It's wonderful and I'm loving it, but it's long. 1000 pages! Truman hasn't even beaten Dewey yet! I'm learning a lot about that period of time, though. Post WWII was a time we always missed in history class. The year always ran out just as we got to WWII in any number of American History courses I took.

I loved Margaret's book on her father. REally good in its own way. He was a wonderul funny man in his own right.

Marni,

It's not a small book, is it? I think it's thicker than John Adams.

Hats" It's definitely huge.

I might have to check out something on Margaret Truman. She sounds quite interesting. My husband said she writes (wrote?) children's books?? She was an opera singer and got bad press.

Marni,

I would love to read a book about Margaret Truman. Her life would make a good book discussion.

For a biography I think about 600 - 700 pages is about right. The Mc McCullough "John Adams" falls comfortably in this range and this book for me sort of sets the standard for the ideal Bio. The Truman book at 1000 pages just seems to force feed more detail than I really want.

Another really long recent biography is the multi-volume tomes detailing the life of Lyndon Johnson by Robert A Caro. I have one of these volumes, "Master of the Senate" detailing his 12 year career in that body from 1948 - 1960. I never set down and read it from page 1 to 1000. Even so I have read most every page over the past 3 years (or is it 4 years) simply researching questions that have come up most often in connection with my activities right here on Seniorsnet Books.

I remember the first time LBK appeared as a Senate candidate. It was the Texas Demo Primary in 1948; it was also the first time I had voted. I voted for his major opponent the ex-Governor, Coke Stevenson. LBJ won by 17 (probably fraudulent) votes. Those 17 votes sent LBJ not just to the Senate, but 14 years later to the Whitehouse. In subsequent elections LBJ always got my vote.

Margaret Truman writes very nice mysteries. Has for many many years. She also wrote biographies on her Mother and Father. Well done, I thought. Dont know of any books about her, but after her initial mess as a reluctant presidents daughter and opera singer. She married a bit late and had some children and wrote books and I suspect has led a long and happy life.

Click Here for a short but sufficient Web bio of Margaret Truman. Her writing career in her later life seems to have replaced her initial try as a singer. Overall all she appears to have emerged quite successful from the trauma of her early position as a President's daughter. Apparently she, now in her early 80's, is alive and hopefully well.

Thanks for the Margaret Truman bio, Harold. Wow, she did write a lot of mystery books.

Finally have time to watch a bit of TV and C-Span. Madeline Albright has a new book out titled "The Mighty and Almighty" regarding religion and politics and I have reserved it at our Library - the 34th on the list so it be awhile before I get it. She was interviewed by a Georgie Geyer who is also an author and I reserved one of her books.

Has anyone read either? We discussed Albright's first book and it is in our archives. She's an interesting lady, besides being the first female Secretary of State.

Click Here for more on The Mighty and Almighty by Madeleine Albright. Thanks you Ella for this post telling us of this new book. Please report more about it here when you get it from your Library

I bet this is a good book. Ella and Harold, thanks for listing it.

A return to the previously discussed book: TEAM OF RIVALS: The Political Genius OF Abraham Lincoln by Doris Kearns Goodwin.

My daughter returned last week from a National Leadership Conference in Conn. and she met the author who was there to speak to the conference.

She was very impressed, and said she would have to have the book. I ordered it several days ago. It does sound like a winner.

No, she didn't go for the autographed copies......she picked up the "reading affliction" from me, but is too smart to be a collector and keeper of every volume she gets her hands on. She reads many, many books, but keeps very few...passing them on to others. She watched me pack and move a ton of books around the world several times, and supply several libraries along the way. I still can't stop buying.

I will of course, read the copy of Team of Rivals that I am buying for HER.

Sun

Click Here for publisher information and short critical comments on the subject book.

Thank you Sun for calling attention to this book. I does seem to center on an aspect of Lincoln that is not usually prominent in his popular biographies.

I too can understand your comment relative to keeping books. Over the years I have accumulated far too many. I am now reducing my core library to what can be kept in three, 5-shelf Bookcases (each about 4 feet wide). In one of these I keep some 100 + titles, my personal favorites on a wide varity of subjects. In the other two I keep titles relitive to my two special history interests; one for WW I & WW II, the other for Texas Spanish Colonial History, American Indian antropology and history, and the early history of our Trans-Missippi West. There are some 400 surplus titles still at the Gudalupe County house that will go to the Guadalupe County Library.

C-Span2 is going to run the Geyer interview with Madeleine Albright on Book-TV on Sunday, 21 May, from 3-4 p.m. EDT.

I just borrowed a copy of the Journals of Lewis&Clark(condensed) and reading the preface which is by Stephen Ambrose makes one want to own the whole set. Only 8 volumes! I am looking forward to discussing Lewis&Clark. You are absolutely right about Thom's book being about the whole Clark family and not just William Clark. I am using it, here and there, and only from the pages that are about William and his journey with Merriwether. One of the paragraphs includes his brother, George Rogers Clark who was the general who during the Revolution won the Battle of Vincennes. It gave me a start to read about that battle as we had to study it in Indiana History but only his name has remained with me over the years.

We have a small low power AM radio station here in San Antonio that since its beginning a few years ago during its broadcast day has operated on the usual “talk” format. Often this involves an interview with an author discussing his/her new book. The other day there was a good one whose title was “The Hope Diamond- The Cultural History of a Legendary and Cursed Gem,” by Richard Kurin,” Click Here.

During this interview the author, Richard Kurin traced the history of the stone from the17t century when a French gem dealer acquired it from India. After that it spent a spell in the crown Jewel collections of first the French and then the English royal families. After debts forced King George VI to sell it, it went into a succession of private owners. During these years it was subject to two cuts each of which reduced its size; it also acquired a reputation of attaching a curse to its owner. Finally in 1958 it was donated to The Smithsonian Museum where over the past half century it has been viewed by millions of visitors including myself and most certainly many of you who are reading this message.

Today I don’t have a good memory recollection of actually seeing the stone. Jewels are not the type of exhibit I seek out when I am at the Smithsonian, but in 1993 when I was attending a World Future Society meeting, with a lady friend who wanted to see it, I remember standing in a line waiting to view it. I even have a mental picture of the special safe/cabinet housing it, but try as I might, today I cannot construct from my memory an actual picture of the stone.

Do any of you remember your viewing of this stone?

Funny how these things with such mammoth reputations seem almost insignificant "in the flesh". I do remember seeing the Hope Diamond, but probably only because it was the only time I've been to the Smithsonian. It was probably in the 1960s, and I remember that it was in a recess in the wall, well-lit, with heavy glass in front of it. It was a fairly large stone, and was blue. So much for those memories.

I'll bet it's an interesting book, though.

Thank you Mary for posting the scheduled Geyer interview with Madeleine Albright on her book, “The Mighty and Almighty>” Darn it but I will be attending a matinee presentation of the “Lion King.” This popular show will conclude its six-week run in San Antonio tomorrow,

Ann what L &C journal do you have? I was wondering if it is a new edition of the 1950’s edition edited by Bernard de Voto? This combines excerpt from both the Captain Clark and Captain Lewis. There are long periods in the Lewis journal where there are no entries. This lapse is some times cited as evidence of the mental condition that became acute after the completion of the expedition, terminating in the Captaian’s early death by suicide.

Also there are interesting journals available by 4 enlisted men who were a part of the expedition. Each of the sergeants was required to keep a journal and Private Whitehouse also kept one on his own accord. I have copies of these that are listed in my Lewis and Clark Bibliography, >Click Here.

How exciting that you're getting to see The Lion King, Harold! That's one show I've really wanted to see. It's going to have a 6-week run in Nashville (about 2 hours from here) this fall, and we just might go.

I'll probably tape the interview with Albright, just in case.

I love the way he writes and this is a praticularly intriquing book for me. Have you read any of his books here on SN?

He starts out - and i've just started reading it - talking about how our "time" divisions evolved: months, days, hours, etc. It is so fascinating. These things which we take for granted everyday of our lives are a very interesting history study. I'm going to use some of it in my Western Civ I class this summer.

Just think about what it might be like to not have a calendar! I suppose that wouldn't happen because it's so important that it had to be developed.

The word clock comes from Midlle English clok which came from a Middle Dutch word for bell because the first mechanical clocks rang bells to designate the hour. Most people being illiterate would not have understood the clock face w/ numbers - altho i presume it would not have taken much time for them to have learned. And many fabulous church clocks had all sorts of drama w/ planet movements and the disciples greeting Jesus, etc. etc. And the first designations of time was for prayers, not for all 24 hours. Paul Revere was a famous maker of bells - is there anything that man didn't do? Wonder if he and Ben Franklin ever met?

It's a fun read, i recommend it, and i'm looking forward to the rest of the book, the first 50 pages have been so interesting......jean

found an interesting "discussion" about the use of IIII or IV for Roman numeral 4. In case any of the rest of you are interested in such an article here is the link

http://members.aol.com/lolathrop/roman/iv.html

still looking for a picture of the clock.......

isn't history fun???? I keep telling my students that

and some of them actually agree w/ me at the end of the course........jean

Ann:-Why not read the whole eight volumes of Lewis & Clark on Senior Net just as we are doing Story of Civilization?

Robby

I plan to offer repeat discussion of "Undaunted Courage" in August. Hopefully you will participate in this discussion.

The previous discussion of this book was in 1998 and I am the only person involved who is still active. I had originally intended this discussion for May 2004 to coincide with the 200th anniversary of the beginning of the up-river trek but it was deferred for another project deemed even more timely.. During the course of this discussion I plan to inject primary material from the Captain’s Journals as well as from the Enlisted men's writings (Sergeants Ordway, Floyd, and Gass and Private Whitehouse). We will also highlight the several Ethnographic studies prepared by the Captains. The August,/Sept. 2006 discussion period will coincide with the 200th anniversary of the successful completion and return.

Anyone interested in reading a second book in connection with this discussion, I highly recommend the James P. Ronda title, “Lewis and Clark Among the Indians” See the Bibliography linked in my message this morning (#708) for more information on this title.

I can't remember the exact title but it was something like my description. Let me look and see if i can find it. I would like to join the Undaunted Courage discussion. I read it sometime ago, but will be happy to review it again. .....jean

My sister, Mary, and I went to see the Hope in the Smithsonian when we were attending the B&L bash back in 2002. Yes, it wasn't as spectacular as I thought but definitely gorgeous. I think that I woud enjoy the book about it as it has a long history.

About my L&C Journal, it is the one by Bernard Devoto with the Foreword written by Stephen Ambrose. Its a nice complement to "Undaunted Courage" which I own. I also borrowed the L&C Enclopedia from the library, but really don't think that I will use it much.

I am also interested in the modern approach to the L&C trail. That's looks different.

I've just listened to an interview on BookTV of Madeleine Albright discussing her new book, The Mighty and the Almighty. She is a fascinating woman, with a great insight on the world today. This one will go on my reading list.

It may be heretical to say so, but except for their glitter, I have never really understood why there is all the fuss about diamonds. A crystal is as beautiful, IMO. I find stones like amber, opal, amethyst and carnelian much more lovely than diamonds. Can you believe it? A female who isn't impressed with diamonds.

Babi

Babi: I have to disagree! Diamonds are a girl's best friend.

I inherited my mother-in-law's diamond ring, a very beautiful solitaire. It sparkles so much more than any other jewels I see and has so many colors. It absolutely flashes. There really is something particularly special about a good diamond. I would like more!

MARNI, maybe I just haven't had that much exposure to really good diamonds.

Babi

Speaking of diamonds, I hope I just bought one. I bought the book Mayflower by Nathaniel Philbrick, a book about the Plymouth Colony. Last year I read Philbrick's Sea of Glory about the American naval journey of discovery that resulted in the beginnings of the Smithsonian collection. It was extremely interesting. I hope I enjoy Mayflower as much. I recently finished The Island in the Center of the World by Russell Shorto, a book about New Netherlands. It will be interesting to compare the two New World settlements.

Our F2F for May is "The Second Mark" by Joy Goodwin. Subtitled: Courage, Corruption, and The Battle For Olympic Gold, the book is very well written and tells the story of the atheletes who went for the Gold in the pairs skating for the 2002 Olympics in Salt Lake City. The story is well told of each of their lives and how they came into skating, extremely interesting how different their separate lives were in their three countries--China, Russia and Canada. If you love the Olympics and especially the figure skating, I highly recommend it.

I have already started to search the story of Lewis&Clark with many different books laying on my coffee table, my nightstand, and the dinner table. What a story! What great history!

Click Here for ”Mayflower by Nathaniel Philbrick mentioned by Marni above.. In the mid 1990’s, I read a similar story of the early history of the Jamestown colony that Is not on my book shelves today. Quite likely this is another example of my loaning a book and forgetting to get it back.

Also I have read much on the 1685 La \Salle French Colony on the Texas Matagorda Bay coast; Click Here for a primary source written by one of the few survivors. Actually both the English at Jamestown in 1607 and the French on the Texas gulf coast in 1685 were equally poorly prepared for survival as colonist in pristine North America. The difference was that the Jamestown settlement kept its supply line to England open while the French from the beginning lost all their ability to communicate with their European base. Jamestown was sustained through its first half century by a constant annual re-supply of new settlers aand material supplies from Europe.. Disease, inaptitude, and Indians withered the French settlement away to oblivion within two years of the initial landing.

And Click Here for more information on the Joy Goodwin title reported by Ann Alden about the quest for Olympic Gold at the i2002 Salt Lake City Winter Olympics,

I would like to read a book about Global Warming, written in layman's terms.

Maybe a book written by Rachel Carson?

does anybody remember that?......jean

Absolutely, jean - and Richard Carlson played Herbert Philbrick.

HATS, if you're interested in global warming, you might be interested in reading Michael Crichton's book, "Fear". I always appreciate his way of giving me excellent science instruction in such a palatable form. Global warming is a major theme of this book, and he punches a few holes in some of the current beliefs on the subject.

Babi

I'm depressed about something I read about global warming and acid rain. Apparently, all of the sugar maple trees in New England are going to be dead within 100 years because of their sensitivity to the changing environment. Oak trees are supposed to be able to withstand such things better. I'd better hurry and plant an oak or I won't have many trees left.

But Marni, haven't you heard? Global warning is just a natural cycle that the world goes thru????? I'm dying to see Al Gore's movie, sounds very interesting.......could it be another "Silent Spring" in our culture's consciousness?......Let's hope.......jean

Babi, thank you for a title. I have never read any by Michael Crichton. This seems to fit. Thank you.

Marni, that's very sad to know about the Maple trees. Maple trees are very beautiful.

Harold, Mabel, and All, doesn't it seem for awhile, maybe after the writing of "Silent Spring," we heard so much about pollution, Acid Rain, etc? Now, it's like we have accepted the possibility of the erasure of living things, the disappearing of nature. Not much is said about animal extinction either.

Finally, I listened to what Al Gore was saying about Global Warming and how it can and will change the beauty of the earth. It's very sad. He showed photos too. Maybe snow topped mountains. Later, just barren land. I don't want that for the future generation.

In today's paper there was an article about how the world's deserts are expanding, probably due to global warming.

Alas climate change seems obvious to anyone living in South Texas where in the last 12 months we have had only 23 inches of total rainfall (27 - 29 inches is the average).. Three months from now if there is not a substantial rein increase that 12 month accumulated total will likely be down to 20 inches and by the end of the year down even lower.

In my area of Guadalupe County there were no bluebonnets, no paintbrushes, no wild flowers this year. Yet the native buffalo grass struggles on.

who raised cattle, the only livilihood they have known for dozens of generations, but now because of the drought the cattle have nothing to eat and are dying by the hundreds, so the people are dying.......the world cannot stand by...but the U.S. has not paid our promised share of the U.N. aid!!! AAAARRRGGGHHH! Get out the vote in NOvember! We must vote in some "real" compassionate congressional people.........jean

HAL, in the Gulf Coast area of ;South Texas' we have had quite a bit of rainfall. I can't quote you inches, but we are in our thunderstorm time of year, and they have been very active.

Michael Crichton's book "Fear" makes the point that the only confirmed 'warming' trends are in the metropolitan areas..the big cities with large populations. And that has far more to do with the heat generated by people/industry/miles of concrete than with any atmospheric changes. He backs up what he says with facts.

Babi

Actually The annual San Antonio Rainfall records (Click Here) that go back to 1871 show annual rainfalls in the low 20 inches in every decade of the period. The 1890’s were particularly rainy with only 18.25 inches in 1893, 15.92 inches in 1897, and 19.711 inches in 1999. Record low rainfall was in 1917 when only 10.11 inches fell. This was followed just 2 years later in 1919 by the penultimate high of 50.30 inches.

The 1970’s were particularly rainy during that decade there was more than 30 inches in 7 of the years with the record year 1973 seeing an accumulation of 52.28 inches. My count shows a total of 45 years during which rainfall exceeded more than 30 inches.

Interestingly the count for the past 30 years is 17 years where rainfall exceeded 30 inches: In comparison for the first 30 years of the period there were only 11 greater than 30 inch years. This would support the conclusion that this record gives no support to the global warming thesis.

Do other long term records show differently?

According to Crichton, (I'm calling on memory here) the records documenting temperatures all over the world, and graphed to show rises and falls, do not support the 'global warming' except, as I noted in my last post, in heavily populated metropolitan areas.

Most of the scientific data Crichton used reflected patterns that were not unusual if one looked at them over a period of more than a decade. Like your rainfall info. There are wet years and there are dry years, but no pattern. Certainly no evidence of a pattern of steadily increasing trends that could mean serious problems coming up for the whole world.

Babi

I think Mabel is right in calling attention to declining artic and anarchic Ice cap as evidence of global warming. Also there is are other southern hemisphere events such as ozone depletion possibly connected to the greenhouse gasses believed responsible for global warming, Click Here.

This well might be evidence of global warming or simply a natural cycle similar to many other cold/warm cycles that are know to have occurred through out the world's long geologic history. I suppose there is a growing body of evidence of man induced global warming, but is it sufficient to constitute proof?

.

I have just ordered "The Lobster Chronicles" by Greenlaw. I started reading the book on Amazon and couldn't stop. Have any of you read this one? Greenlaw also has written a few more books. One is called "The Hungry Ocean."

I am learning a little about "Global Warming" by reading your comments here. Thanks.

Mabel and Harold, that is a very good site. Thank you.

Is the Ozone problem separate from the Global Warming problem? Both issues seem extremely important.

Can we read a book about these issues and discuss it on Seniors?

The discussion on Global Warming, the Ozone, or whatever to do with these things would probably make a good Curious Minds. Don't you think?

Probably so, ANN. But Hal has more facts and info. than I do. What I've learned came from reading Crichton's book, which as usual is a fiction story with a solid scientific background. Let's ask Hal what he thinks. HAL??

Babi

Babi, thank you again for the title of Crichton's book.

Click Here for more information on the Michael Crichton novel “State of Fear” that I somehow neglected to provide last week when BiBi mentioned it in Message #726. There is of course a place for historical novels and fiction based on science and actual human experience. Yet we all know that these the book contain a wide range of the authenticity in their fictional message. Some can be quite accurate others miserable re-writings of factual material.

This approach forms the basis of science fiction and some authors have proven themselves real prophets in predicting scientific discoveries long before their time. Regarding this title I note that though the publisher commends the high caliber of the author’s factual research, I remain suspicious since it is was published as a mass-market paperback that too often rely on the sensational to generate huge sales.

Never the less it kicked off interest here to the extent of a considerable discussion thread,. While I see nothing too wrong with this diversion here, I agree with the comment today that the subject would better make a good Curious Minds topic

Hal, I quite understand your doubts about the publishers' marketing agenda. However, Crichton is a name that really doesn't need hype. He is too well known and respected. And the facts/charts/studies he drew on where those presented by reputable agencies and scientific groups.

Babi

I would like to discuss Birthdays and why we celebrate them. This topic is picking up interest because it hits on shared cultural experiences. In a global village context this seems to a very interesting way to engage the topic.

I have found one really good book on the subject and looking for others. The one book is entitled "The True Meaning of Your Birthday" by MIchael Walker. Any suggestions?

Most interesting and intriquing with many, is the topic of birthdays. Their meaning and reasons to celebrate are a great cross cultural discussion that opens communication. I have found one new book to add to the collection which takes a unique persective.

"The True Meaning of Your Birthday: Living Life with Purpose" by Michael Walker. I found it on Barnes and Noble and Amazon. Any suggestions for other titles?

Harold and Babi,

I am very interested in Global Warming. Thank you for the clickable.

--- for your further information on Michael Crichton. I am quite unfamilar with his writings and his type books. I see he is well known on the Web as a Google search on his name returned some 6,810,000 hits. A few of the prominent sites are linked below.

Click Here for the Michael Crichton Official Site.

Click Here for a information on his writing and film credits. I see he is the Author of "WestWorld" the 1970's movie version of which I have a vague recollection;

And Click Here for a Hartland Institute Michael Crichton Site that includes comments on "State of Fear" and links to other reviews.

Thank you for your post on "The True Meaning of Your Birthday" by Michael B. Walker. Perhaps the true meaning of our birthdays explains why many of us are not enthusiastic about celebrating them. Click Here for more information on the book.

Global Reader you have chosen a great Seniorsnet entry name for a Books participant. We hope you will join us here often!

Thank you, HAL, for the link to the Heartland Institute site. It has a great summary of all the info. on 'global warming' that Crichton included in "Fear".

I think you would like most of Crichton's books, Hal. All of them are informative science as well as entertaining fiction.

Babi

I hope you find someone interested in your request. Maybe I will carry it to the Curious Mind folks and we could try something in there for two weeks. Might be fun!

I've been out of pocket the past few days researching material for a special new theme tour at the Institute of Texas Culture. I apologize for my 3 days absence from this board. Next week we will beginour 35th annyal Texas Folklife Festival. Click Here

It seems to me that we here have come up with two potentially interesting Curious minds topics, the significance of Birthdays based loosely from the Michael Walker book and Global warming. Everyone will have his/her special feeling regarding the significance of birthdays. and there is tons of material on Global warming available on the Web or in print. Also everyone has his/her special position on this subject also. Either will make a great 2-week Curious Minds debate..

HAL, those San Antonio Folklife Festivals are fabulous. So much to see. Unfortunately, I no longer try to attend that sort of thing. Too much walking and more heat than I can tolerate now. For those still up to it, I can promise a lot of fun and good food.

Babi

This author is unknown to me. I think her books look really interesting. I have "Lilibet." Please look at the others she has written. I bet some of you have already read her books.

Carolly Erickson

Erickson has a superb reputation as an historian.Her books are usually wonderful and accurate.....jean

Mabel, thanks. I had never heard of her. I trust your recommendation.

Erickson certainly has a long list of authored historical titles. Mostly her subject is biographyy of European Royals. Some I must confess, I would like to read including the Queen Victoria Biography and perhaps the one on Elizabeth I.

BaBi the Walking problem is the principal inhibitor of walking related activities by Seniors. I too notice the problem and Saturday I led a Seniors tour at the ITC. They strugled to endure the 45 minutes, but in this case most managed to stay together.

My building group has a visit scheduled next week to the Bob Bullock Texas History Museum in Austin. We need five to sign-up for it to make and as of now there are only 3 committed. There are only two currently on the list for this Thursday night's visit to the Folklife Festival. That one too don't look like it will make.

I'm finishing Madeline Albright's book - THE MIGHTY AND THE ALMIGHTY - a fascinating look into the role religion plays in politics regardless of our attempts as a nation and by the constitution to keep them separate. Madeline feels it is imperative to take religion into consideration in dealing with other nations, particularly the Middle East and the Islamic faith.

It may be somewhat controversial as she lambasts President Bush and I can't but wonder if her remarks have a tinge of partianship.

Anyone interested in discussing her book perhaps in August or September?

Ella,

I greatly admire Madeleine Albright. I would love to read and discuss her book.

I bought Albright's book. John is about 2/3 through it - and I get it next. I loved the first half of Madame Secretary. I had it from the library, and it had to go back just as I got to the midpoint, as she had just been made Sect'y of State. I'll get that one finished sometime. She's VERY readable.

Ella, it's good to hear from you. With your recommendation of the Albright book. Wow! What a mix. Politics, religion, and Bush-bashing! As a matter of fact I was looking at it the other day. That should be lively. I'm interested.

And I have one for you, and anyone else interested in a historical work. J. Anthony Lukas's BIG TROUBLE. I've just started reading it, and it has got me hooked. Idaho, of a hundred years ago. Politics, murder, labor problems, etc ad infinitim. And from the dust jacket:

'BIG TROUBLE summons an astonishing cast of characters from all walks of life, collectively limming the shape of the American century to come.'

Hi Jonathan, good to see you here and interested in the book.

I have another good book to recommend - WARLORDS: An Extraordinary Re-Creation of WWII through the Eyes and Minds of Hitler, Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin by Simon Berthon and Joanna Potts. There is still much to learn about these giants of the past, and I was surprised at a few of them. The book reads like fiction but is well documented.

ELLA, I would be much surprised to read any book of a political nature that was not partisan. One is never quite sure how much can be taken at face value and how much is distinctly biased.

My father taught me to take a critical view of just about everything I read re. history, politics, news, etc. Just because something gets published doesn't make it so, obviously.

Babi

Yes, Babi, I agree. We can all put our own interpretation on Albright's ideas in her book.

As an interesting sidelight to the WARLORDS book, I was very interested in the extensive quotes from a Daisy Suckley; the Internet provided me with the following (note how recent Daisy died)

WARLORDS

In the review of the above book the following is stated:

"When she (Daisy) died at 99 in 1991, friends found under her bed a suitcase stuffed with thousands of pages of her diaries, and letters to and from FDR, dating from 1933 until his death in 1945."

When I think of all the books written about FDR it is amazing that Daisy kept all this information hidden until her death. Apparently no one knew? And how did Geoffrey Ward, the author, come into possession of this new material?

I too think the Albright title would make an excellent discussion. Perhaps, Ella, you and/or BaBi will consider offering it this fall or winter?

Also that is an interesting Title with FDR's letters. I was surprised about the open contemporary inculcation of information relative to the plans for the Normandy Overlord operation . Also his open discussion of his meeting with Churchill seems inappropriate. Surely no President would do that today ( I hope).

The book apparently is out of print but it seems readily available on the used book market and certainly most public libraries. Ells, have you seen the book at your Library yet?

I don't believe that "Warlords" is out of print as I found it here:Warlords

The following National Geographic Program is scheduled for Sunday Evening:

***WORLD PREMIERE*** "Napoleon's Final Battle" at 9P et/pt Stripped of his throne and imprisoned on an island, Napoleon Bonaparte did not surrender. He escaped and returned to power. Follow the story of one of history's greatest conquerors and his astonishing comeback

I copied the above from a National Geographic site. Actually Napoleon’s state on the Mediterranean island of Elba was far less than imprisonment. He was allowed to keep his royal status, not as Emperor of France, but as Emperor of Elba with a royal court and the accompanying perks and privileges. His escape was quite easy and back in France he was immediately accepted as Emperor.

This program is the story of the 100-days that led to the Battle of Waterloo, final defeat and real imprisonment, this time in the far South Atlantic on an isolate Island, St Helena. There the royal perks were gone and he was truly in a prison with a British jailer and guard. Three years later he died so stomach cancer.

Harold, thanks for the heads-up. I'll be watching.

Is the Napoleon program on the National Geographic Channel (which we don't get, I'm sorry to say) or some other channel?

I'm afraid the Napoleon program is only on the National Geographic Cable channel. While this channel is frequently included in packages offered by the cable companies, it is not in some.

I checked our listing this morning, and it's only offered here with the digital package - which we don't get. Too bad - it sounds interesting.

There have been a number of History Channel programs about Napoleon in the last week. I watched a good one that was a 1-hour biography of his life. The other focus more on specific parts of his life.

I wonder why all the programs about Napoleon on now?

I saw most of the 2 hour Napoleon progtam Sunday Night on the National Geographic Channel and recorded it for a second viewing. Though it was centered on his last 100 days after his escape from his first exile, by flashback the program also brought in much of his previous career successes and failures. I thought it quite good and wish for more films of similar high character.

Previously I had completed one Graduate History course on Napoleon and particularly the Congress of Vienna that tried to cope with the many issues emerging from the ending of Napoleon's career. Also I remember reading in the 1950's an exelcent Napoleon Biography by Emil Ludwig. Apparently this title is still available in paperback.

I think i remember them saying it was going to be 10 or 12 programs - or maybe hours - but the first one was one hour long, well done, but nothing yet new from the PBS series. They've done two new programs on Washington also.

Am still nipping at Boorstin's The Discovers. It really is a delight and the fact that i can pick it up and put it down increases the delight. He's talked about how different socities made starts and stops at deciding units of the day and units of the year. He's talked about Greeks figuring out w/in 250 miles the length a trip around the earth. He's talked about clocks........that reminds me, the History Channel must have worn out all their film on WWII that they've played for the last 10 yrs, their program Modern Marvels has been doing wonderful programs about little snippets of life - paint - yes, paint - it was really interesting. Who knew that someone could talk about paint for 45 minutes and make it interesting??? How about glue - yes, they did a program on glue, and it was interesting.

Harold - i'm also still picking up and putting down Miracle at Philadelphia. It's quite good...........jean

Harold and Mabel, who wrote "Miracle at Philadelphia?"

I am looking forward to June 17th on the History Channel. I have forgotten the time. "Jefferson's Other Revolution" is coming on. What other Revolution???

I think his other revolution concerns his deep interest in architecture. He certainly changed much about houses especially at Monticello. We toured it along with his estate about 20 years ago and my favorite new things were ????? Well, his bed in the wall of two rooms so he was present in each room at the same time. And, what was it about the chain or clock at the front door? And, his gardens?? My brain has left me! Here's wonderful link that I just found that you might enjoy: Jefferson's Monticello Inventions Oh, there's explanations of each invention like this Great Clock Jefferson's Great Clock What a super site!! I want the revolving bookstand! Too pricey for my budget! Maybe I could get my hubby to build one for me. Sure would be great to have while I am so interested in the Lewis&Clark books! Have fun!!

Mabel

Last week, I noticed that I still haven't read Boorstein's "The Discovers" and wondered why. I've had it standing in the bookcase for many years, in several different states, in 4 or 5 different cities. You are piqueing my interest. Maybe after "Undaunted Courage", I could garner enough time to read it. Thanks for the encouragement!!

Ann,you have my excitement and curiosity running high. Thank you for the links. I have been to Mount Vernon. I have never been to Monticello.

When will the Lewis and Clark discussion begin? I have forgotten again. What books are you reading? Any recommendations? I need to start reading on the subject. I am very, very excited about the discussion. Ann, I am glad you are coming along. This is going to be exciting. How long will the discussion last?

Length of discussion is up to Harold since he is leading it. I am reading Stephen Ambrose's book, "Undaunted Courage" but also really enjoyed the chapters on the expedition in "From Sea to Shining Sea" by Alexander Thom. I have the Journals of L&C, the cookbook, a travel book about seeing the trail now, the Lewis and Clark Companion by Ambrose's daughter which is wonderful, and another title which escapes me.

Ann, you are really having fun! Those are great links. I love the Wheel Cipher too. Thanks.

There is a new book out about the L&C expedition from the viewpoint of the Indians they encountered. Lewis & Clark Through Indian Eyes, Josephy & Jaffe. Should be an interesting addition to the lore.

Mrs. Sherlock, what a new and interesting viewpoint. Thank you for the name of the book.

ANN, a recent nonfiction deserves attention, I believe, but has not been mentioned, unless I missed it: Rough Crossings: Britain, the Slaves and the American Revolution, April 2006, 475 pp., by Simon Schama, yes, our Simon Schama of "Rembrandt's Eyes", who also authored a book about the French Revolution, and several more.

Schama effectively turns the American Revolution upside down: in his book it is the Crown that holds out the promise of liberty, and the patriots would take it away. "For Blacks," Schama reminds us, "the news that the British Were Coming was a reason for hope, celebration and action."

Schama's book is fair-minded and beautifully written. He does not pretend that the British, who oversaw their own brutal slave economy in the Caribbean, operated with clean hands. But for American slaves, the prospect of continued bondage in an independent America was no choice at all. That's why many cast their lot with the British who, knowing that most rebels were slave owners, declared the emancipation of the slaves.

The second half of the book is even more powerful as it follows the former slaves into exile after the war when thousands joined an exodus of white loyalists to Nova Scotia. Others shipped to Africa to establish a struggling township in Sierra Leone, where the settlers suffered years of illness and near-starvation. It was the first largely self-governing community of African Americans and at least a taste of the liberty that would not be offered them in this country until generations later.

I believe it would be highly instructive to make this book a future discussion here.

Ann and Traude, It sounds like a wonderful book. I can't believe it's by the same author of "Rembrandt's Eyes."

The mention of good quality shows on THC, Nat'l Geographic, and Discovery Channel, reminds me of a marvelous program that I would like to recommend that is occasionally shown on the National Geographic channel. It's called "Inside Grand Central", and shows and tells the story of the rise, and then the fall, and then the amazing resurgence of Grand Central Station in NYC. I don't know if it was a book first, but I doubt it, since it relies on "before and after" pictures.

I happened upon it by accident, and was immediately hooked, even though I have never seen Grand Central, and knew nothing at all about it. The story of the famous terminal is absolutely fascinating, and I guarantee that you all will be as impressed as I was. It starts by showing and telling the story of how it was built originally by Vanderbilt in the late 1800's, the modern changes that were made in the 20th Century, and what it was like in it's glorious hey-day. Then came the terrible and ugly decline, when it was allowed to deteriorate and become nothing more than a residence for drug addicts, homeless people and rats. (This was in the l960's) It was slated to be torn down at that time and a skyscraper built in it's place. But thanks to a restoration group, headed by Jackie Kennedy, it was saved, and has been restored to it's original architectural and technological glory! It is really an upbeat program, and shows what can be done when people work together to restore something that is really worthwhile.

Part of the show is a guided tour through most of the terminal, and talks about and shows the famous underground tunnels that supply steam heat for surrounding buildings, and a secret train track for arriving and departing dignitaries.

Marilyne: I've seen the before (60's) and after of Grand Central Station. It's an unbelievable difference. What a fabulous station. Thank goodness, there are influential people who are at the right place at the right time and can save buildings from demolition. It certainly hasn't happened often enough. I practically cry when I drive through Hartford, CT sometimes when I see what has been torn down and replaced with either parking lots, or concrete blocks of buildings, or highways, or nothing. The city has been ruined and what is gone is irreplaceable.

"Inside Grand Central" was a wonderful show to watch. I have seen it listed several times in the last few months.

Would you believe Val & I do not have cable? Most of the time, I could care less, but I do sigh over the missed opportunites of such offerings as Discovery and National Geographic, Thank goodness good stuff does find its way to PBS.

Babi

Regarding the Lewis and Clark discussion, it will begin August 1st. It will center on the Ambrose Undaunted Courage title. A heading will be published July 1 in the proposed books menu inviting participants to sign-up. Hopefully we will get a good quorum of 5 or 6 or more participants.

I anticipate a schedule of a month or a month and a half concluding it at the latest about the 15 th of September. As always participants are welcome to bring up Lewis and Clark issues raised from books other than the Ambrose main title. I will as the discussion proceeds call attention to comments and views made by the enlisted men who kept journals.

Everyone will be welcome to participate particularly you who are active here. Also comments from any of you relative to the schedule and bibliography are welcome here but let us resist pre-discussion of the subject saving that for the discussion..

Mrs Sherlock, I will look for more information tomorrow on the new title, by Jpsephy & Jaffe emphasizing the expedition as seen by the Indian and add it to the bibliography. I have not seen this title, but have a high opinion regarding “Lewis and Clark Among the Indians” by James P. Ronda. I have mentioned this title here before and it is in the Bibliography

More on L&C will follow tomorrow.

I sort of got tied-up with some maintence chores at the country house in Guadalupe County. Two weeks ago an impromptu windstorm took down 5 of the 70 foot pine trees. They were in a weakened condition resulting from the yearlong drought. Now I must clean up the mess and the afternoon temperatures are near 100 degrees.

Meanwhile there has been much activity here. First I too saw the first segment of the History Channel’s series on the American Revolution. I thought it quite good in its telling of the road to revolution and some initial happenings in 1775. I look forward to the next segment that I presume will be the siege of Boston in 1775 and 76 and on to New York. This many of us are familiar with from the 1776 Discussion. Is the programs scheduled to run on Sunday evenings as the initial segment was?

I will see tomorrow if I can add additional information on “Miracle I n Philadelphia,” and “Jefferson’s Other Revolution.” I too don’t have the foggiest about what other Revolution is featured.

A new Curious Minds discussion has started. It is about antiques and classics and, if you would care to join in, please use the link below

ANTIQUES

Bill H

Here's the link to Jefferson's Other Revolution: Jefferson's Other Revolution

And as it turns out, his other revolution was about "Poplar Forest" where he found peace and quiet. It is being restored to its former self.

Thanks for that information, Ann. It's on the History Channel tonight at 8 p.m. ET. We'll look for it.

Take a look at this: Poplar Forest

To me, this place looks like a tiny Monticello.

Thank you Ann for the information on Thomas Jefferson's Popular forest. Apparently the subject will be the subject of a History Channel presentation today, Click Here This will be a part of the "Save Our History" series; and Click the "Envirolnmental Science Camp" Link at the bottom of the page for a brief additional comment. Consult your TV Guide for time in your area.

A Google search on the string Thomas Jefferson's Popular Forest yielded three specific "Popular Forest" hits at the top of the list before it reverted to other TJ related sites. There is no real web detail on TJ's "Popular Forest" posted on any of the three hits.

Thanks for the second link, too, Ann, and for yours, too, Harold. John had never heard of it either. We'll be watching!

Did any one see the history Channel TJ program last evening? If so give us a brief comment.

The Jefferson program was very interesting. His "second revolution" referred to his architecture. Most of the program was focussed on Poplar Forest. It was his very private get-away while he was president and afterwards. He rarely mentioned it by name or location. After his death, it was in private hands until relatively recently. Most of it was destroyed in a fire - only a few bricks remained. But, as with much that TJ did, he kept meticulous records, so it's being rebuilt with period tools and materials (at least as much as possible), and to his specifications.

They're calling it a "restoration", but I felt it's being more of a "reconstruction". Oh, well.... Anyhow, it's near Lynchburg, VA, and it certainly some place we'd like to visit when we're in the neighborhood.

Also of interest was that the guide/narrator was the guy (whose name I've forgotten) who did This Old House on PBS for such a long time (not Bob Vila). That was a nice touch, IMHO.

I have it recorded. I haven't looked at it yet.

at 10;00 tonight -Sunday......jean

I was looking up a book by Larry McMurtry for my son when I noticed that McMurtry wrote a non-fiction book entitled Sacagawea's Nickname: Essays On the American West. It caught my eye because Harold will be DL for a discussion on a Lewis and Clark book in the fall. I think I may have to read the essays. Here's a blurb describing the book. (It doesn't say what Sacagawea's nickname is!)

"For nearly forty years, Larry McMurtry's novels and essays have vividly portrayed the American West. He has explored life on the frontier, in small western towns, and in the increasingly urbanized stretches of what was once open country, with a keen and elegiac eye for the real, the mythical, and the changing and enduring aspects of the landscape. In these essays, all originally published in The New York Review of Books, McMurtry brings his unique sense of the West to bear on a variety of historical and literary topics. Included here are essays on James Wilson's history of the Native Americans, The Earth Shall Weep, and on the Oklahoma historian Angie Debo's early-twentieth-century studies of the Second Dispossession of the Five Civilized Tribes. One essay takes up Zane Grey; another is an appreciation of the insufficiently well-known poet and novelist Janet Lewis. Several deal with the exploration of the West: one is about John Wesley Powell, who led expeditions down the Colorado River and the Grand Canyon; two others treat the Lewis and Clark expedition; another traces travel down the Missouri River before and after Lewis and Clark. And one tries to untangle the web of myth and reality woven by Buffalo Bill and Annie Oakley as the West was turning into a subject of public entertainment."

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/m/larry-mcmurtry/sacagaweas-nickname.htm

I put my name on the reserve list for Larry McMurtry's new book, Telegraph Days, when I first read about its coming out. Lo and behold, I was first on the list, AND it's already come in to the library. I'm going to pick it up in the morning. Yea!

I looked at "Jefferson And The Other Revolution." I enjoyed it very much. I had never heard of "Poplar Forest," his hideaway. I also didn't know that on his gravestone the words "Father of The University of Virginia." The octagon shaped building is fascinating. Jefferson brought back many ideas from France too, like French Doors.

Mary Z I am going back to your post. I didn't want to read it until looking at the program.

Hats, I knew about his epitaph - he wanted to be remembered for being the author of the Declaration of Independence and the founder of UVA. Glad you enjoyed the program, too.

Mary Z, let us know whether you enjoy "Telegraph Days."

Jefferson had very avant garde ideas about education when he helped to establish UVA. He wanted no rigid requirements set on the students' curricula. They should be able to choose the courses they wanted. Jefferson was a free spirit in many ways. Of course, the boys at the university took advantage. There was some sort of student riot, if I recall correctly. Jefferson was on the panel to mete out punishment. He cried in front of everyone because he was so disappointed.

by • Christopher Hilton

Mayflower: The Voyage That Changed the World Christopher Hilton

Appears author Christopher Hilton has done some significant research on "The Pilgrims and their colony".

ABOUT THE BOOK From the Publisher Mayflower: The Voyage That Changed the World

"The little band of Puritan emigres that left Southampton in 1620 to found a godly colony in America had no inkling that they were the forerunners of the greatest feat of nation-building in the early modern world. In this book Christopher Hilton recreates the lives and aspirations of the Pilgrims, from before their famous voyage on the Mayflower to the far-reaching and astonishing implications of their emigration." "The Mayflower pilgrims were unique in their reasons for leaving their homeland. Unlike the majority of emigrants they were not seeking material benefits. They had fled England for liberal Holland but, after a decade there, feared assimilation so they decided to journey across the Atlantic and try to survive the uncertainties of a new and distant land. Their driving force was freedom to worship God in the way their conscience told them was right. Yet their journey was not easy. They fled from persecution only for half of their band to die during the first winter in America. Disease and a degenerating relationship with the Wampanoag Indians later forced the rest of the colony to amalgamate with a less radical group in Boston." "While the Pilgrims' dream may not have been realised as they had hoped, their self-determination would inspire generations of aspirant migrants the world over. Their legacy played an important part in precipitating the imperial conflict with Britain after 1763 and would later stand at the core of the American ideal during the centuries following independence. Even the US Constitutions was, arguably, based upon the Puritans' own laws." Using contemporary documents, Christopher Hilton explores the personalities as well as the philosophy of these extraordinary men and women. Mayflower: The Voyage that Changed the World is the first time the complete story of the Pilgrims has been told for many years and it will appeal to anyone with an interest in this epic Anglo-American story.

A portrait of author Harper Lee who wrote " To Kill A Mocking Bird" which has sold 30 million copies and continues to sell a million copies a year. Of interest her dear friend Truman Capote of which she helped him write his famous best seller ' In Cold Blood". Capote gave Harper Lee no credits for her extensive research and writing of_ In Cold Blood.

Potsherd, I can't wait to read "Mocking Bird." I am glad you listed it. I have read "To Kill a Mockingbird." I never knew anything about Harper Lee. I am thinking she was slightly reclusive.

I am three quarters of the way finished "Lilibet" by Carolly Erickson. A lot of history is involved with Elizabeth II's life. Of course, the bombing of London and surrounding areas during WW II. Then, there is the Suez Canal incident, Winston Churchill's declining years. It's a well written book. I am looking forward to reading more books by Carolly Erickson.

Thanks, Potsherd - I've just put Mockingbird on the reserve list at our library. Hats, did I get there before you did? I'm #4 on the list.

Mary Z, Yep, you beat me to it! I will get you back next time.

Guess what! I am #5.

Family tradition insists that our ancestor was one of those hardy souls on the Mayflower. I will read this new book with great interest.

Mrs. Sherlock, there's a Mayflower person in my mother's family, too. But I don't know that I'll be reading the book. I'll keep it in mind, though.

For those of you who don't know, Hats and I both live in Chattanooga. Obviously, sometimes we compete (in a friendly way) for the same books from the same library.

I am a member of the Mayflower society.. so as per most of them, I descend from at least four of the families. Never go to meetings. I have a firm policy of no meetings for anyone. Senior net is wonderful, but no meetings.

STEPHANIE, you are a soul-sister. I learned antipathy to meetings early, ..along about my Brownie days. Same with clubs; I joined very few clubs in my lifetime, and then learned to loathe committees. Only for my Church did I overcome my dislike and womanfully did my duty. Which I happily passed on to the younger generation at the earliest opportunity!

Babi

I'm about 2/3 of the way through Mayflower. It is so fascinating. I'm reading an old history of my town of Windsor, CT at the same time. There is just unbelievably interesting stuff in these books and it's so fun to compare the two.

Some Pilgrims from Plymouth Plantation were the first English to settle Windsor. (I just about dropped when I saw that.) Then Puritans from Dorchester, MA, part of the Massachusetts Bay Colony, moved in and took over. Windsor was actually called Dorchester for awhile.

The native Indians had asked the Pilgrims to move to the Windsor area because the Indians wanted English allies to help them against their Indian enemies. Apparently, the plague had swept down from Canada, killing something like 90% of the native Americans just before the Pilgrims arrived in America. It screwed up the order of things. Well, the poor natives - they got more than they asked for.

Marni, I would like to read the Mayflower book too. It would make a wonderful discussion, I think.

Here are the link to the Titles mentioned by Potsherd:

Click Here for more information on “Mayflower, The Voyage That Changed The World,” by Christopher Hilton

Click Here for “Mockingbird’- A Portrait of Harper Lee.” This is a biography of Harper apparently the title Potsherd was referring to in his post.

I note from the information B&N included with the “Mayflower” title that half of the early Plymouth settler died within the first year of their arrival. This was the death rate at Jamestown also. My favorite book on the early history of Jamestown is by Carl Bridenbaugh (Jamestown, 1544 – 1699) that is no longer available in the B&N Catalog.

Just today I got something very interesting in the mail - a newsletter from the Mohegan Indian Tribe for Spring 2006. It's called "The Mohegan Way." I've never seen anything like it before. There's an article about their tribal heritage including info about the Royal Mohegan Burial Ground, "original and sacred land," where Uncas and his descendants were buried. In 1659 Uncas made an agreement with the Mohegans and with English settlers that deeded the burial ground land to the Mohegans and the land that today is Norwich, CT to the English.

There's also info about how the Mohegans gave $7 million towards construction of a water pipeline for a regional water-sharing project.

It's fascinating to me to read about the native Americans in Mayflower and then to read about the Mohegan history in their newsletter and how they've come back to power through their casino.

Marni, I would love to see that newsletter about the Native Americans.

Harold, thank you for the links.

I had the chance to catch part of two good shows on the History Channel: Leonardo De Vinci and the second show, The Vikings. About the Vikings, it's very interesting hearing about their Longships. The way the Vikings made the ships allowed the men to enter narrow river waters. It took creative minds to make these ships. I hope both shows come on again. Then, I can see all of the broadcasts.

Hats: I saw the Vikings show awhile back. So interesting. It's neat to read about various boats that were designed by different cultures to navigate in the particular waters where the people lived. Another example is the galley ships developed to travel on the Mediterranean. (We're seeing galley slaves in Don Quixote.) They were used for so long because of the winds and shoreline in the Mediterranean Sea. They had sails and oars (and slaves to man the oars).

I wonder if the Vikings had slaves. Their ships had sails and oars, too. I don't remember about that in the TV program.

Marni, I don't think they mentioned slaves oarring the boats. I missed that part too. It's so much in those History programs. It's hard to take it all in without forgetting some facts.

I think this week is Empire week. Not sure. Next week I think is Revolution week. I think the Revolution is a repeat. I receive a program in my mailbox. Then, I don't go look at it. I just need to take better note.

I am reading "The Great Deluge", by David Brinkley, a professor from Tulane University........I can hardly put it down...there is a great deal of information in it that was not gleaned from the t.v. and newspaper coverage.....if you are interested in weather and that part of the country AND the roles played by all levels of government, this is a book for you .http://tinyurl.com/mwbhv

Tonight, the History Channel is doing a program on the Ottoman Empire. That might be interesting, too.

Mary Z, I don't want to miss it. We will record it.

Click Here for more on "The Great Deluge" by Douglas G. Brinkley.

I urge everyone to look at this link page because it has a particularly detailed commentary in its From the Publisher's Section. There is also an unusually good review in the Publisher's Clearinghouse Section. Do check it out.

Thank you Mary for the TV alert on the Ottoman Empire program tonight on the History Channel. I see it is scheduled in San Antonio TX for 7:00 PM for a 2-hour showing. I will recorded it for later viewing on my new Dell Media notebook since I am going to Shakespeare In The Park- Macbeth this evening.

Consult your TV Guides for possible time variation in your area.

Nancy thank you for telling us about "The Great Deluge." I would like to read a book about Hurricane Katrina. Getting bits and pieces on the news leaves gapping holes. I think this book would fill those holes.

Harold, thank you for the clickable and urging us to read the commentary.

Hats: I'm looking forward to the Ottoman program. Thanks!

Uh, oh. "So You Think You Can Dance" is on tonight. I'm hooked on this reality show. My son thinks I'm nuts. Maybe they're not on at the same time. Oh, what to watch, what to watch!!!

Go for "The Ottoman Empire." You can tape the other one.

I am going to tape "The Ottoman Empire." This morning I happened to see part of Daniel Boone. It is really interesting. I didn't see all of it.

I am getting Daniel Boone and Davy Crockett all in a twixt, mixed up for sure.

Oh, rats, I missed it. Totally forgot. What a brain. It re-runs at 1:00 a.m. or something. I hope I'm in bed then.

I missed it too. It didn't air at eight o'clock. Instead, The Seven Wonders of The World came on the History Channel. We recorded that program. I wanted to see "The Ottoman Empire. This is Empire week.

The site _"The Plymouth Colony Archive Project 1620-1691"( Google same) examines the archaeology of this important phase of our history. This long term archaeological project has uncovered house and palisade outlines in the ground as well as copious amounts of pottery,metal and wood artifacts. The prime archaeologist through time of the Plymouth Colony is James Deetz and Patricia Scott Deetz who have authored numbers of books on their studies of the Colony.

Harold, An interesting Jamestowne Web site is _Archaeological Preservation Virginia (APVA). The site is outstanding: the silver ear spoon for removing wax was an unusual artifact recovered. Dr. Bill Kelso who replaced Dr.John Cotter when he retired as director of Archaeology at Jamestowne has done a superb job: under his direction additional parts of the fort have been discovered as well as some significant burials. The APVA site also delves into historic Williamsburg. Virginia, Is a state that is very,very serious of it's history. They start teaching their children in primary.middle and senior high school the children learning pre-history and history of their state. In middle school they start actual excavation projects. The Virginians appreciation for their cultural history reflects in significant funding for preservation: an example is Jamestowne where 72 million was allocated for projects.

Click Here for The Plymouth Colony Archive Project Archaeological Field Schooland Excavations, 1998-2003 mentioned by Potsherd in message 837 above. Also Click Here for a similar wonderful site on current Jamestown Archaeolgy also mentioned by Potsherd that I have been following for the past half dozen years.

Regarding the Plymouth site I did a quick read of some of the 17th century Laws enforced by that Puritan Society few if any of which would survive a 1st amendment or due process challenge today.

It was scheduled in my local TV Guide for 7:00 PM central time. I set my Dell Media Computer to record the scheduled two hours. Something was wrong; it recorded two Hours from the History channel, but it was a program on the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. I wonder what happened to the Ottoman Program?

The Shakespeare in the Park was quite good despite the large crowd. It was from a hillside stage. Our vision was somewhat interrupted by tree trunks but I could follow the dialog fine. I thought the witch scenes stole the show particularly the later one where they pronounce Maspeth safe from all men born of woman and until the forest came to Dunsendane. By that time it was totally dark and the lighting and stage effects were impresive.

Same here. I was sondering what the pyramids had to do with the Ottoman Empire.

I don't know what happened to the Ottoman Empire. It's not listed anywhere on the History Channel web page. But it surely was in our paper yesterday. Who knows????

I don't understand what happened. I really wanted to see "The Ottoman Empire." Now I'm afraid it will come on unexpectedly, without a listing, and I will miss it again.

I thought it was surprising when I went to their web site and put in Ottoman Empire, and got nothing whatsoever - like they never heard of it. Guess we'll never know.

Oh, that makes the whole thing worse. This is rediculous.

I read more fascinating stuff about colonial Windsor in my library history book last night. Like the Plymouth colony, old Windsor was surrounded by a palisade. By gum, a road down from my street is called Palisado Avenue. That's where the old town was located surrounded by its palisade.

A street around the corner from my house is called Mack Street named after the Mack family long ago. I read that the patriarch of the Mack family was a Hessian soldier who came with the British to fight against the Americans in the Revolution. He joined Gen. Burgoyne and was captured by the Americans at the Battle of Saratoga. He was sent to Newgate Prison (now called "Old Newgate Prison") in a section of Windsor which is now East Granby, CT - the terrible prison underground in an old copper mine. When he was freed, he decided he liked Windsor and settled there.

This reminds me of the 1776 discussion where we read that some of the Hessian soldiers stayed and settled in America.

Marni yes, I remember!

I forgot to mention the most interesting thing to me of all in my library history book.

One of the original settlers of Windsor, Roger Ludlowe, who came from the Massachusetts Bay Colony, was a lawyer. In 1657 he drafted "The Fundamental Orders of Connecticut" with help from some others, including Thomas Hooker. This document was the first constitution in America and is considered the first constitution of a democracy to be written in the world. It is the constitution that the U.S. Constitution and some other state constitutions was based on. Some of the wording in it is the same as in the U.S. Constitution. They got some of their ideas from the Dutch Republic where some of the Puritans and Pilgrims had lived before coming to America.

I guess this is why Connecticut's nickname is "The Constitution State."

I can't believe I've lived in CT my whole life and am just learning this stuff now.

My husband just reminded me, since I mentioned the name of Thomas Hooker, a founder of Hartford, CT, that a CT town wanted to change the name of a Hooker Street, named after him, because people think it was named after prostitutes there!

Oh my! Marni, that's funny!

Click Here for information on the ratification of the U.S. Constitution.

In my memmory I thought Connecticut might have been the 1st State to ratify the document and acquired the "Constitution State" nick name by that act. Actually I see from the above article that Connecticut was fifth after Delaware, Pennsylvania, New Jersey and Georga.

New Hampshire became the 9th State ratifying the document, technically bringing the doucment to life. After 11 States had ratified the Documment including the large influencial States of Virginia and New York, the Continental Congress passed a resolution on September 13, 1788, to put the new Constitution into operation. The last of the original 13 States to ratify was Rhode Island that did not come into the fold until May 29, 1790.

Harold: CT had some very strange laws because of the early Puritan leaders. CT created a new state constitution in 1818 in order to separate church and state. Until the new constitution was passed into law, every taxpayer had to pay tax to support the Congregational Church unless they could provide a certificate proving they were a member of another church.

We still have leftover "blue laws." Like no CT stores can sell any liquor, including wine and beer, on Sundays.

I am just getting around to reading Care of the Soul by Thomas Moore. If this book was not discussed in the early years of Senior Net, I would recommend it.

I love the title of Thomas More's book. I will look for it at the library.

I finished Lilibet by Carolly Erickson. I recommend the book. I am going to read other books by this author.

I hear that "The Ottoman Empire" is coming on the History Channel at five o'clock this evening. Can't speak for all areas.

Oh, well, Hats - I won't get to see it. We're at the beach now. Lots of TVs, but we're too busy talking. I'm resting now, after dinner, while the elves clean up.

I hope it's on for you, and I'm looking forward to your review.

Mary Z, you didn't miss it. It didn't come on! Have fun!

But it wasn't on here either and we are on the same time as you are, Hats, so what has happened to it? Seems strange that they advertised and then chose not to show a program..

I started "Teacher Man" but just couldn't get into it but am enjoying rereading "Under the Tuscan Sun". Am still finishing up Stephen Ambrose's "Undaunted Courage". We watched the 4 hour movie about the expedition. Very well done, I must say.

We are off to an early breakfast with friends this fine Sunday morning.

Hi Ann, my "Undaunted Courage" by Stephen Ambrose arrived in the mail last week. I can't decide whether to go ahead and start it or to wait until August. Maybe I will peek at the first chapter.

Well this Thomas Moore I was not familar with and when I saw georgehd's post #854 I thought of the 15th century English writer/philosopher/politician Sir Thomas Moore. Now I see it is a contemtorary American Author named Thomas Moore, Click Here for the Thomas Moore Home Page. and Click Here for information on "Care of the Soul; a Guide for Cultivating Depth and Sacredness in Everyday Life" from the B&N Catalog.

During the coming week we will display the "Undaunted Courage" heading as a Proposed discussion on the Books Menu. We will need firm commitments from 4 or 5 participants to make the discussion beginning August 1st.

The proposed heading next week will include more detailed information including a six week schedule. I hope all of you will participate.

Finally, I cracked my book, "Undaunted Courage" by S. Ambrose. I read the Introduction. S. Ambrose spent twenty years obsessed with the Lewis and Clark expedition. How exciting to be so enthusiastic about a project. I can hardly wait for Harold to start us on this journey.

Ann, you made an early start preparing for this expedition. I can hardly wait to hear all you will have to tell us. I know Marni always gives loads of good and exciting information. I hope Mabel and Ella are coming along too.

Babi, are you coming too?

Harold - Don't mean to butt into a different conversation here, and change the subject, but I have been wanting to ask you about a very TEXAS type non-fiction book. I doubt there will be much interest for some people here, but thought you might have checked it out.

Have you by any chance read, or seen a copy of "Barn Burning, Barn Building" by our very political fellow Texan, Ben Barnes? I read some reviews, and they are fascinating. Heard anything about it?

Sun

Hats and Harold: Yup, I'll be there, too. I have my book already plus a book with the Lewis and Clark Journals that I picked up on sale for $2.50. I'm looking forward to it!!

Marni, thank you for mentioning the journals. If I can find the journals for a cheap price, I will get those too. Cross your fingers. There are many journals written by different authors. A choice is over my head.

You can usually borrow the L&C Journals from the local library. That's where I found my first copy but when I saw them for sale at a decent price on Alibris, I went ahead and ordered them.

Ann, thanks for reminding me. I should have thought of my library first, usually, I do.

Sun that's not butting in; New subject threads are always welcome here! I see "Barn Burning, Barn Building" by Ben Barnes is now out of Print though it is readily available in Texas Libraries and from the used book stores. We don't want to make this a Texas board but if we could get 4 or 5 from yourTexas Board who wanted to read and discuss it, I could offer it as a Books project during the winter. Are there other Texas centered books that might be considered?

What ever happened to Ben Barnes? For you non-Texans he was a 1970 lieutenant Governor on the fast tract for the Governorship. He had ram-rodded through a convention a new modern state constitution that somehow fell from favor the last minute causing it to fail in the election when it was put to the people for approval. As a result Texas still struggles under a much, much amended post Civil War (1876) Constitution. After that, Barnes lost in a Governor race the victim of the states sudden turn to the Republicans.

I don't think so, HATS. I think I've seen enough of Lewis & Clark for a while, including a really splendid IMAX production. I'm going to be busy with McCourt, and Matthew Pearl, and probably Capt. Bligh.

Babi

And welcome to the Non-fiction of the B&L folder. I have never heard of your Barns or Barnes book either. Must look it up!

Harold - I'm a little confused. I thought this was a "new" book. All the interviews that started back in May 2006, and then articles about the book dated June 2006...refer to it as a new book. Maybe he had another book or two in the past????

At any rate, I only know a couple of Texans or former Texans here on SNet that care a hoot about Texas Politics, except for myself. I normally avoid it like the plague since I have a 'tendency' to get verbal and be downright opinionated sometimes....<smile>.

Yes, Ben was a Democrat from the word go...but he could work both sides of the aisle like no one else. He played serious politics starting with LBJ and all Presidents down through George...he's the one that picked up the phone and got G.W.B. into the National Guard as a favor to someone he knew...?? I'm sure he has a lot to tell in the book.

Anyway, I doubt there would be enough for a discussion...but I'll ask around. I mostly just wondered if you had read the book.

Thanks for the welcome, Ann. I lurk here all the time...so not really a stranger.

Sun

Marni and others, there is an interesting discussion about the Medieval period going on in the "Story of Civilization" discussion. Robby said it's alright to bring friends along. Please come!

Another word on "The Great Deluge".....I had no idea all that really happened on the Gulf Coast during and after Katrina.........this books covers very honestly without any sugar coating everything.......from the lack of planning city, state, and federal as well as what really happened in the super dome and the convention center.......it is absolutely riviting.............

Thanks, Nancy, for the recommendation of THE GREAT DELUGE. I'm on a waiting list at the Library for it; but (hahahaaa) it's not as if I need something to read! I've got 3 books I'm working on - lovely, wonderful, exciting books!

And, of course, I must read the first 4 chapters of McCourt's book again - I loved it the first time I read it! The discussion is starting July lst - JULY ALREADY!!!

I've caught up with a few discussions in the Books - great way to spend a couple of hours! Whew!

HAROLD is so good about posting sites of books and I should do the same. Here is B&N's reviews of THE GREAT DELUGE mentioned above.

THE GREAT DELUGE

Ella and Nancy L. Smith, I am looking forward to reading "The Great Deluge." I bet it does go into far more detail than what we could piece together on the news. Thank you for listing it. I think it had been listed earlier by someone.

Ella thank you for the link.

Are you aware that The Today Show is making collections for the ruined libraries of Hurricane Katrina? You can go to their website and find the type of books needed. Many people just throw books together and send them, unaware of what is especially needed.

Ella I know what you mean......I have a stack of books ready to go! This one however caught my attention......it is living history and I promise you.........you have no idea what really went on .....such cowardice and such bravery side by side.........

The lack of planning is what really had me steaming, Nancy. There's nothing you can do about nature's whims, but neglecting what preparations you know are essential.. Bah! Humbug! It's a wonder to me the mayor of New Orleans wasn't run out of town.

Babi

might remember their traveling thru Shippensburg, Pa on their way west the first time. I spent the past week-end there, It's my home town. They were having a Civil War re-enactment. While growing up there, i never knew there was any fighting in S-burg. We heard the stories of the burning of Chambersburg which is 11 miles south, but i never was told that there was any fighting in our town. My niece-in-law organized a Civil War ball and she and my young grand-niece and two g-nephews are re-enactors.

It was a history catch-up week-end for me too - i had dinner Sat night w/ 6 woman friends from our high school class of '59. When we were in the dining room, "Abe" and "Mary Lincoln" came thru......On Sunday, one of my friends had a retirement party where there was about a dozen more friends who came to send her on to her "next life"......what fun to find out about everyone has been doing and about their families - real-life history............jean

Mabel, I loved our Audubon discussion. I am glad you had such a wonderful time this weekend living "real-life history."

Does this group ever do a planned discussion, or is this just a chatting type group about non fiction we've read? TIA...

Scootz, yes there are planned discussions. There are Archived Nonfiction discussions. Harold is going to lead one in August about the Lewis and Clark Expedition.

Harold, Ella, Marni can tell you more about the planned discussions.

Scootz:-There are at least two current non-fiction discussions where the content is discussed -- The Story of Civilization and Origin of Species.

Robby

Yes, thanks Robby, I have seen those. I don't like jumping into the middle of a dicussion already underway for the most part. It's early- I've not had enough coffeee or I would have recalled the UNDAUNTED COURAGE coming up. History is not my thing as a rule- I'm afraid I'd be intimidated by the others. That's just me- not them. I had signed up for JOHN ADAMS book a while back and after getting the first post, I thought, "Uh oh...I'm over my head here." I was thinking more here of a bio , non- history type thing. But thank you and I'll keep an eye on this area for something like that in future. The SAVAGE BEAUTY in the heading caught my eye as I have read and loved that one.

I had signed up for JOHN ADAMS book a while back and after getting the first post, I thought, "Uh oh...I'm over my head here."

(correction after second coffee)- Actually, it was the 1776 book and in the prediscussion, when I was asked to "consider which events of 1776 he chose not to include", I had the feeling this might not be the group for me.

Ok, sorry for the interruption- off to the other boards for me.

BaBi......off topic but what even amazed me more was that he was re elected mayor! There is much documented about his personal conduct during and immediately post Katrina which was not known.......

Scootz: I bet most of us participating in the Non-Fiction discussions like 1776 are not historians or history teachers or whatever. I know I'm not. I'm just interested in history. I'm just coming into my own reading some biographies and histories. I never used to be interested. It just came to me in my approaching dotage!

You are such an interesting person and so well-read and write so well - You would add so much to our Non-Fiction discussions. Don't be intimidated by the questions. I bet many of us don't have a clue as to what the answers are.

Marni

Marni, here is one of those people. I don't know a thing. I just have an interest.

TIGERLILY, perhaps it's as well I didn't know. I would have only compounded the aggravation!

I've begun reading "Teacher Man", the prologue, for the up-coming discussion July 1, and I'm already hooked. If any of you can get hold of the book, do read it. I'm confident you'll love Frank McCourt.

Babi

HELLO SCOOTZ! This discussion is under the heading "General/Genre Book Discussions" and is for anyone, at any time, to post messages concerning NONFICTION books they are reading or have read.

You will note that under the title "Individual Discussions" is where a single book is discussed - generally for a month.

Am I being more confusing? Gosh I hope not.

Does this explanation help?

YO BABI! - I read McCourt's book - TEACHER MAN - sometime ago and fell in love! I'm reading it a second time and it is still enchanting. Who else can call himself a "geriatric novelty" and wonder why he spent 30 years as a poor teacher when he could have written a book when he was young and made loads of money. But, of course, he would not have had the experiences to write about.

As he says, if he had stayed in Ireland he would have:

"got a laboring job, got married, drank your pint on a Friday night, jumped on the wife that same night and kept her pregnant forever. In a few years you emigrated to England to work on the buildling sites or to enlist in His Majesty's forces and fight for the Empire."

Instead, in an American classroom, he was:

a drill sergeant, a rabbi, a shoulder to cry on, a disciplinarian, a singer, a low-level scholar, a clerk, a referee, a clown, a counselor, a dress-code enforcer, a conductor, an apologist, a philosopher, a collaborator, a tap dancer, a politician, a therapist, a fool, a traffic cop, a priest, a mother-father-brother-sister-uncle-aunt, a bookkeeper, a critic, a psychologist, the last straw."

Whew! That was a lot of typing! But join Ginny in the discussion, as always, she is the "tops, the Mona Lisa."

Loved the quotes, ELLA. Thanks you for all that hard work.

And I am definitely joining Ginny in the discussion. Wouldn't miss it.

Babi

Thanks, Ella. The only thing I cannot find is where it says "individual discussions".

I promise to keep an eye on this area for upcoming non fiction things.

Update- never mind, I see it!!

Marni is right in her message 889 that no one should ever be intimidated when participating in a book discussion here; particularly not if it is a history discussion. Just read the book and post what it meant to you. Any individual's interpretation is as good as any other's take on the subject. None of us are professionals, and only rarely have we been teachers. No one is right or wrong just readers posting what it meant to them and the other participants.

I am sure Robby would have has no problem with people coming into his discussion at any time. His style of discussion is ideally suited to late starts. Also since his project involves the multi volumes Durant's lifetime work, the start of a new book is never too far in the future.

Regarding voting on a particular Book for discussion I did that once on the old History Board. There was no clear majority winner; the winner turned out to be somewhat of a dark horse that won based on receipt of many 2nd choice votes. It was a great book (The Ambiguous Iroquois Empire) but perhaps a tad too academic for our discussion pattern.

I am having great trouble typing this message since I am using a new Dell Notebook with the Windows Media Edition operating system. Its high resolution 17 inch wide screen makes it great for watching TV particularly sport events like NBA Basketball, but like all notebooks typing on it does not come easy, at least not for me,

--- it is really great to see you active here again. Please come in often.

Harold: We bought my son a wide-screen HP laptop last summer because he was starting law school. He picked it out. Those screens are so wide. You can look at 2 full screens at the same time. I know what you mean about typing on a laptop, though. Sometimes I'd like to have a laptop myself, but I think there are some drawbacks. My current computer is set up in our "office" which is upstairs. We have a router so my son's wireless laptop can tap into the internet wired in the office. I'd like to have a wireless laptop down in the den where we watch TV and spend a lot of time. It seems more and more that I need a PC both downstairs and upstairs.

I found something i tho't you and those others of us who were "tippling" madeira during the 1776 discussion - was that it? - might be interested in: "......when (Prince Henry of Portugal's) people landed in Madeira (madeira means wood) in 1420 and set about clearing the thick woods, they set a fire that raged for 7 years. Altho' they never planned it that way, the potash left from the consumed wood would prove a perfect fertilizer for vineyards of the Malmsey grapes imported from Crete to replace those forests. The justly famous 'madeira' wine was the lasting product."

Interesting how our discussions just keep flowing from one point to another and back again.........jean

Michael Pollan author of "The Botany of Desire" has a new book out, "Omnivore's Dilemma". This book makes me look at every thing in the supermarket in a more serious way.....By the way he is NOT vegetarian although after reading this book it might make one want to be.......Discusses agribusiness, artisan farms, organic farms and produce......also how all most all our food now is corn based (fed to the animals and farm raised fish) and how it takes so much fossil energy to produce this corn! Just a wonderful read for those of you who are interested in this kind of thing.............

marni, we got a wireless router when I got myself a laptop about 18 months ago. Now one of us can be at one end of the house on the desktop, and the other at the other end on the laptop. It's wonderful. And we're on one level. I know we'd be doing it if we still had a 2-story house.

Question for Tigerlilly: Why does it take FOSSIL energy to produce corn? Is my ignorance showing - you betcha! But corn is mentioned in the news often and it is expected to be a source of energy in the future. If it takes energy to produce, then how can we use it for energy?

http://tinyurl.com/dupua. This is part of the answer. Also some of the chemicals and fertilzer used.............very interesting reading

Click Here for information on "Botony of Desire" by Michael Polan mentioned in #899 by Tiger Lilly. Seniorsnet Books discussed this book in 2002. I did not read the book but followed the discussion and as I recall I made a guest appearance on chocolate that the book apparently did not discuss. Click Here for the archive and Click Here for the Seniorsnet Reader's Guide.

Ella were you involved in this discussion?

And Click Here for "Discoverers: A History of Man's Search to Know His World and Himself," by Daniel J. Boorstin mentioned by Mabel in Message 898.

Thanks Harold for posting that.

I also want to thank Hal for hosting the "antiques" discussion on Curious Minds. The site was closed before i got to put this on that site. I didn't participate, but i was lurking and enjoyed it, remembered all the "antiques" mentioned........jean

--- Tell us more about your Bligh Project now on the drawing board, for November 2006 ,-- Mutiny on Board H.M.S. Bounty by William Bligh. I have a facsimile (photo copy) reprint of the Log Bligh kept on the longboat passage after the Mutiny between April and August of 1789. The full title of this reprint is “The Mutiny On Board HMS Bounty, By William Bligh, Pageminister Press in association with Argot Press & Mitchell Beasley, 1981. I am thinking Bligh’s HMS Bounty log was lost with the Mutiny?

Our previous discussion was in 2001-02. It was more a discussion of the Mutiny itself rather than the discussion of a single book, Click Here for the archive. It did get over 600 posts but it did drag a bit and probably was a bit too detailed and comprehensive for our type discussion. In any case I as DL did a lots of reading on the subject leading me to look with interest to marni’s project in which I will certainly participate.

Click Here for a Bounty Bibliography that I compiled from the B&N catalog for the discussion. Also a number of Bounty Web links are clickable from the archived heading.

Thanks Tigerlilly for that clickable. Very interesting and somewhat discouraging to learn that:

"Turning plants such as corn, soybeans and sunflowers into fuel uses much more energy than the resulting ethanol or biodiesel generates, according to a new Cornell University and University of California-Berkeley study.

"There is just no energy benefit to using plant biomass for liquid fuel," says David Pimentel, professor of ecology and agriculture at Cornell. "These strategies are not sustainable."

We have been deceiving ourselves it would seem. Heaven only knows what we will be using as fuel in the future!

HAROLD, no, I did not participate in the archived book discussion you mentioned.

Anyone have any suggestions for a good biography or autobiography?

As I mentioned before I read two very good ones back to back - WARLORDS and CLOSEST COMPANION; both books centered on FDR and new information obtained recently from Daisy Suckley, a distant cousin, who recently died in her late nineties. She had kept thousands of pages of diaries, letters, etc. in a box under her bed that contained fascinating information heretofore not known.

When you think of the hundreds (thousands?) of books, documents, movies and television shows on the subject of WWII, one sometimes wonders if the "Good War" had not happened what would have taken their place. And the subject continues on and on..............

Jean: How fascinating about the Madeira fire. My goodness! In the Don Quixote discussion we have been "tippling" Manzanilla wine and eating Manchego cheese from Spain. Delicious!

Mary Z: The wireless computers and routers really are what's happening today, I guess! Pretty soon we'll all have to have a computer in every room.

Harold: I'm thrilled you are interested in joining us in the Bligh discussion. It will start officially Nov. 1 and we will focus on just the one book that you mentioned above. We were discussing books of the sea in the Book Nook and Ginny mentioned that there was nothing like the actual words of Bligh. It got me thinking and I volunteered to lead a discussion of the book. There seems to be quite a bit of interest. I'm looking forward to seeing you there.

By the way, Kleo just put in the Book Nook a link to "The 101 Best Sea Books." I printed out the list. The Bligh book is there!!

Marni

Yes, aren't they the best. The list of sea books. Great surfing,just reading the annotations. I was well along before I got to one of my favorites. Erskine Childers' The Riddle of the Sands. Everyone's favorite must be in there.

Ella, how about a book about Theodore Roosevelt? Great man. Great time in US history. TIME has a short feature on him in its current issue, July 3. Including a short piece by Kathleen Dalton, who is 'the author of Theodore Roosevelt: A Strenous Life.' Is this a recent biography?

When I went looking (Amazon) I found a very negative review regarding the Dalton book on TR.

'dry, questionably reasoned', 'unsatisfying, one-dimensional', TR described as 'little more than an overgrown and proposterous boy'

Then follow the 'customer reviews', and they are mostly five-star. Something doesn't add up.

Read a good bio many years ago, i'll see if i can find it......jean

How about "Mornings on Horseback" by David McCullough??? Very good book about TR. Most enjoyable!

JONATHAN, I think most of us Americans have formed our own popular image of Teddy Roosevelt. I think "overgrown and preposterous boy" is probably an integral part of that image. Which may explain why the book is approved by the readers, even tho' the critic disliked it, perhaps justifiably.

Babi

Click Here for a short Web biography of Theodore Roosevelt. He was certainly made from a different mold than this predecessor Presidents. Actually (for me) he seem personality wise quite incomparable to his successors.

Thanks all for your suggestions. I have, in the past, read a biography of Teddy R but I still enjoyed TIME's review of his life and presidency. As I read it, it seemed to me that FDR had carried forth and executed many of the policies that his uncle, Teddy, had begun - the "imperial" presidency for one. That was interesting wasn't it? I had not thought of that before.

After listening to C-Span for awhile yesterday I am going to look up a biography of Alexander Hamilton. Has anyone read a good one?

Click on this

Happy 4th of July

Thank you Ann for posting the 4th of July card.

Ella and all: Click Here for a current (April 2004) biography of Alexander Hamilton. Marni, is this the one you read and commented on last year? In any case it seems the only actual biography that comes up from a B & N Catalog search. A paperback edition is available.

Hello Harold: This is what happens, sometimes, when you watch C-Span on weekends: I reserved 3 books on Alexander Hamilton at my branch library (am not sure how current they are); and, of course, know nothing about their readability, length, author, etc. I'll let you know when I pick them up.

Alexander Hamilton : a life / Randall, Willard Sterne

Burr, Hamilton, and Jefferson : a study in character by Roger G. Kennedy

Young patriots : the remarkable story of two men, their impossible plan, and the revolution that created the Constitution by Charles A. Cerami

that was beautiful, nice end to my fourth of july.......jean

Yes, Harold, the Alexander Hamilton by Ron Chernow is the one I read. It is excellent and I highly recommend it.

I have been trying to find a book by an Australian, female biblical scholer I read a few years ago. In the book, the author suggested Jesus survived the crucifiction, flee to Greece and married Mary Magdeline. They had 3 children and Jesus survived to old age where he died in Rome. I know a BBC documentery on this womans ideas was shown in England but not in the US. I do not know the title or author. Thanks

HELLO JIM CAT I'm sorry I cannot help you with that book; perhaps someone will come by who can. The recent popular book, and movie, about Jesus being married to Mary Magdalena is the Da Vinca Code by Dan Brown. I may not have that spelled correctly - I have no desire to read the book or see the movie, but it was on the bestseller list for weeks.

Do stop by here often and let us know what nonfiction books you are reading or interested in reading. We love suggestions and recommendations.

Jim Cat, that sounds lik a confused distortion of the Da Vinci Code plot that has Jesus marrying Mary Magdeline and leaving children with living descendents, Apparently the ideal is supported by ancient writings that were not included in the Bible when that book was made official by the Church, Your book seems to go further with the survival to an old age.

No, I too had never heard of a book with such a plot. But believe it or not, there actually is such a book in the B & N on-line catalogue. I found it by a key word catalogue search on the string, Jesus Survives The Crucifixion. Click Here for information on the book.

Would this be your book and author? The Bible Fraud by Australian author, Tony Bushby

BASILICA: The Splendor and Scandal, The Building of St. Peter's by R.A. Scotti is a phenomenal new non-fiction. R.A. Scotti delivers a riveting account of the intrigues, politics and much more about this remarkable structure -- and in a style that is easy, clear and compelling. Do not miss this historical account, she is a most adept author.

This new book sounds extremely interesting. Were you in the discussion for "Bruneschelli's Dome"? Another fascinating read. I have reserved "Basilica" at my library which owns 6 copies.

Click Here for" Basilica" by R.A. Scott, Thank you Aliciams1 for reporting this interesting new release (June 2006). It appears to be another great title on Middle-age Europe in the tradition of "Bruneschelli's Dome" the discussion of which was led by Jonathan in 2004.

I have just seen this title in my library's online catalogue, just by chance. Why is Samuel Morse's life called accursed? I wondered about the other part of the title too, "Lightening Man."

Lightning man : the accursed life of Samuel F.B. Morse by Kenneth Silverman.

I discovered this title while looking for an Edgar Allan Poe bio.

Sounds intriguing, Hats, do some sleuthing and let us know.

Meanwhile, I finally have found a "doable" book about Alexander Hamilton; others I have looked at were either too large, too fine a print (old eyes cannot read this any more) or just not interesting.

The book YOUNG PATRIOTS by Charles Cerami (who also wrote Jefferson's Great Gamble) is starting off very good. I'll just quote a paragraph from a prologue entitled AUTHOR TO READER:

"The creation of the Constitution was masterminded by James Madison, a young man in his thirties who still lived sparingly on an allowance from his father. It was written by Gouverneur Morris, a wealthier young man who had the nerve to be a playboy despite his wooden leg. He had long been known for cleverness, but not for the sagacity that came forth every time he took the floor during the Constitutional Convention. And its fate had depended on an even younger politician who shattered one meeting with a speech that almost declared, 'We cannot trust the American people.' Alexander Hamilton left Philadephia after that, then returned because George Washington pleaded with him to do so.

Madison and Hamilton are the odd couple of American history. Their relationship featured a series of bitter ends and reunions. The Consitution would not have been created without the one nor ratified without the other."

Not only is fine print a challenge for old eyes, but there is also someone's unfortunate notion of "elegant" print -- not dead-black, but a kind of dark taupe; this is deliberate, in a book that has very careful art editing. I read on, because the book is of interest, but do a slow burn at this misguided notion of aesthetic appeal over legibility.

How appropriate that I would have put this book on hold at the library BEFORE the latest tradgedy in the middle east.....after reading this book I have a much better understanding of the plight of both the Palestinians and the Iraeli's....this book is written from oral history's, journels, documents, etc. and written in a narrative form.....Dalia, and Bashir are real people..........I loved this book and will be thinking about it for a very long time .. http://tinyurl.com/zjfn2

Sounds interesting, TIGERLILY. I'll see if my library has it.

Babi

I picked up an interesting title from the library. It's titled "Finding Martha's Vineyard-African Americans at Home on an Island" by Jill Nelson.

Martha's Vineyard

That looks interesting, Hats. BTW, the Simon Schama interview about his book "Rough Crossing" is on C-Span2 again this afternoon at (I think) 3 p.m. ET.

Thank you tigerlilly for mentioning “The Lemon Tree- An Arab, A Jew, and the Heart of the Middle east,” Click Here. The theme of this book seems somewhat parallel to the Bruce Feiler title we discussed three years back.. This was “Abraham- A Journey to the Heart of Three Faiths”, Click Here for the archived 2003 discussion.

I checked the online catalog, see that my branch library has a copy, will try to pick it up on Monday morning.

Am currently reading Dervla Murphy's "Through the Embers of Chaos", this renowned bicycle traveler's description of her trips through the former Yugoslavia in 1999 and 2000 (the first part NOT by bike, but interurban buses and on foot).

I am a long time Dervla Murphy fan, have read almost all of her considerable output, bought this one on a friend's recommendation.

It is a very useful book if one wishes to make sense of that particular debacle; however, it is not a pleasant book because the subject matter is grim and, in addition, for a purely technical reason: the only edition available, a John Murray paperback, has type so minuscule, that I have to use glasses otherwise needed only for those infamous inserts we get with prescription drugs -- the one warning of side effects nobody under fifty can hope to decipher without a loupe. So, get it at your own risk :>.

Click Here for Finding Matha’s Vineyard: African Americans At Home On An Island, by Jill Nelson. Thank you hats for you comment on this title.

And Click Here for information on Through Embers of Chaos by the Irish autheo, Dervla Murphy. Thank you Andara for bring this book on a bicycle journey through the former Yugoslovia to our attention..

several of our A-A family and friends here in NJ or PA have/had houses on MV, that would be interesting to read about. It's non-fiction, right?......jean

Sorry, that "click here" was for Martha's Vineyard. The Dervla Murphy book is at: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?z=y&isbn=0719565103&itm=1

I am sorry, I don't know how to convert it into a "click here" :>.

By the way, the review incorrectly describes Dervla as a "nurse", which is something she is not and has never been, though she is often asked for medical help in the medically under-served parts of the world she travels in.

Mabel, the title attracted me because of my interest in Martha's Vineyard. I think the name "Martha's Vineyard" is beautiful in itself.

I think the classic "The Wedding" by Dorothy West might have taken place on Martha's Vineyard. Not sure now.

There is another title I have near me too. I remember when this incident took place a few years back. I heard about it on the news. The title is THE LEGACY OF LUNA by Julia Butterfly Hill. The subtitle is THE STORY OF A TREE, A WOMAN, AND THE STRUGGLE TO SAVE THE REDWOODS. It's not a big book. I expect it to stir up my feelings about the earth and its care again.

Hi Mary Z, I caught part of Mr. Schama's interview last week. Thank you for telling me he is appearing again.

All of these are wonderful titles. I love "THE LEMON TREE" and the one posted by Andara8.

Mary Z, maybe this time I can catch the whole interview. I will set up a tape. I have company. I am coming to the computer "whenever" possible.

ROUGH CROSSING by Schama

Mezmerizing........here you will read some of things which happened pre and post 9-11 and our "war on terrorism" which you did not read in the newspapers or hear about on television......it is not a blame game book or anyway I didn't see it that way.....Very sobering as we contemplate what may or may not happen in the future.......

HELLO TIGERLILLY! I heard this author on C-Span and I will get the book at the library; it may be on reserve as I think it is on the bestseller nonfiction list.

We should learn other viewpoints than just one media about terrorism, perhaps we should discuss a book on the subject. What one would you recommend? There are several books to choose from.

Ella why don't you post some of the titles and see if there is any interest? I know I would be......Am now reading "The Foreigners Gift" about the Iraq situation.......I saw the author interviewed on C-Spans Book T.V. program......

I might do that in the future sometime. At the moment I am engaged in getting cataracts operated on - one down and one more to go. Am putting drops constantly in the eye and can't read well yet or drive, but it will come.

Ella .....I know about the drops etc....have had both my eyes done and see so much better......I mean really, really, better....especially after the second one was done........good luck to you..........

I saw "The Lemon Tree" book on a stack of books that a friend was checking out but didn't follow up on looking for. And, good grief, its right in here! De Ja Vu!! That's what it is! I will reserve it as soon as possible and thanks to whoever brought it to my attention!

I am in the middle of "Lemon Tree", find it to be balanced in its sympathies, well written, and -- alas! -- horribly appropriate to the wretched events unfolding in Lebanon and Israel.

I am so glad you are liking "The Lemon Tree"....I felt the same way as you and still think about it ......I also had it on hold at the library before all this mess in the Middle East erupted and it certainly helps me focus on both sides of the issues............

Have you read the US and World News article or editorial by Ajamie explaining how the Hezbollah began? Here's a link: The Heartbreak of History

Ann, I would like to read the link. I have been trying to keep up with the whole situation on the news.

I had finished it last night, found it as painful as it was rewarding.

It has prompted me to wonder, what is it that makes Jews and Arabs cling so tenaciously, unbreakably, to the place of origin, even if the memory of it is only ancestral, no longer personal?

I ask this from two points of view: 1) My own perspective of a former Displaced Person, burnt out of the land my birth, made to move and keep moving -- yet harboring not the remotest wish to return!

Such acceptance of deracination is shared by millions of other Europeans displaced and disrupted by political and economic disasters who moved, and moved on, assimilated, adapted, and no regrets.

2) And then the exact opposite attitude displayed by the Semitic peoples,the Jews and the Arabs; by Jews who incorporated "the return" into their religious dogma, and today by the Palestinians who are elevating "The Right of Return" into a cause worth dying for.

Looking into older examples, one reads of the families in Morocco and Algires who still have hanging in their houses, in a place of honor the keys to the houses they were forced to abandon in the fourteenth and the fifteenth centuries, after El Cyd, Isabella and Ferdinand defeated, pushed out, expelled the Moors from Spain, the Sefarad which is still the lodestar of longing for return of their descendants.

What is it in the cultures of these peoples that makes them retain this longing for the place once inhabited by more or less distant ancestors? And how is it that most of us can shed this nostalgic adherence to a place which is no longer even the place it was at the time of expulsion, or forced departure?

These are purely philosophical musings, without any intentional political undertones -- though the politics of today's Middle East had been shaped, had become misshapen through them.

Forgive me if I was too long-winded,

Enjoyed your post very much.....as you know "The Lemon Tree" had a profound impact on me......I notice Ann mentioned the author Faoud Ajami......I am reading his book "The Foreigners Gift" which is also very illuminating concerning Iraq mainly........I shall also read "The Heartbreak of History"........

ANDARA, you ask some very good questions. I only wish I had some very good answers. I can understand the association the Jews have with the land, as they have no national identity anywhere else. The Palestinian 'right of return' is a bit harder, as they did not have to leave in the first place. The original refugees left due to political scare tactics by Arab opponents to the new Jewish nation. Since then, there has been so much violence and death on both sides that hatred will no longer admit of any peaceable resolution.

As for the Algerians and Moroccans who still have keys to houses from 500 years ago...it's hard to believe they would go back now even if they could! Who know what that is all about.

Babi

You write: "The Palestinian 'right of return' is a bit harder, as they did not have to leave in the first place. The original refugees left due to political scare tactics by Arab opponents to the new Jewish nation."

The whole point of "The Lemon Tree", substantiated by documentation and the Israeli military records, cited in the notes at the end of the book, is that the Palestinians WERE driven out by the Israeli military, because to allow them to remain would have created an untenable situation. Only a small minority of Christian Palestinian Arabs were allowed to remain..

"They just ran away" is what the newly arrived Jewish settlers from Europe, who were given the empty homes to occupy, were told; but in fact the Palestinians in the area under discussion, around Lydda and Ramla (not to be confused with Rammala) were driven out by the Israeli Army during the fighting in 1948.

This fiction, that the Palestinians had "just left", has taken on a life of its own and is now accepted as fact. This does no alter the sad reality that no serious effort had ever been made to resettle the Palestinians in other countries, as has been done with millions of European Displaced Persons -- nor would such a solution have been accepted by most Palestinians, hence my point about the tenacious clinging to the place where the roots were. The "right of return", was actually guaranteed by a resolution of the United Nations, though obviously never implemented for realistic reasons.

"Chinese Lessons" by John Pomfret has been eagerly anticipated by me because of my enduring interest in Chinese history and because I had long read and admired Pomfret's superb reporting from China, where he had served as a reporter for AP,for the Washington Post, then as the Post's Beijing bureau chief.

"Chinese Lessons" is in part a memoir of the author's two years as the student in 1981-83 at the University of Nanjing, but then also becomes a recapitulations of the histories of his Chinese classmates, tracing through their biographies China's history from the Cultural Revolution to the present engagement with capitalism. One chapter from the book has been published in the Washington Post Magazine a few weeks ago and confirmed my interest in it.

Today, I had at last received the book, have only read the first three chapters, had to force myself to stop and take a breather, find it gripping, will be happy to post later my final impression of it.

Living in Florida that has a serious amount of Cubans in its population.. I must say that they all talk about returning after Castro, but I seriously doubt that they will. They love politics way too much.

ANDARA, thank you for that correction on the removal of Arabs from the Lydda/Ramla. I'm not sure if all the refugees fell into that category; I'll need to do a bit of research into that.

It was my understanding that efforts were made to resettle the refugees into other Arab countries, but for the most part the nations in question refused admission, or allowed only very limited admission. What I read/heard on the subject was that it was in the political interest of the anti-Jewish Arabs to keep the refugees where they were as a source of trouble to the new nation. As indeed it has been. Perhaps "The Lemon Tree" disputes that view as well.

Babi

BaBi,

"The Lemon Tree" focused primarily on the fortunes of the two families involved: the Palestinian Arabs who built the house and the Bulgarian Jewish family who cam to live in it after 1948.

The story of how Bulgarians dealt with the Nazi attempt to transport Bulgarian Jews to the extermination camps during WWII, was an unexpected, bright moment in that dark chapter of European history.

It is ironic that Bulgaria, virtually the last Easter European country to regain its independence from the Ottoman Empire, should also prove to be least tainted by the endemic, native anti-Semitism, which made the Nazis' racial policies so easily implemented in the rest of Eastern Europe, not to mention France, with its own native anti-Semitic attitudes.

Click Here for American Women- Four Hundred Years of Dolls, Drudges, Helpmates, and Heroines, by Gail Collins. This was released in Sept, 2004 a few months after Cookie Roberts, Founding Mothers. My friend, Beverly Sharp who is also a long time Docent at the ITC recommends this book. Have any of you read it?

Thank you for the clickable.

I found a wonderful biography of Andrew Jackson in our New Books section in the library. Fascinating story! It's Andrew Jackson: His Life and Times by H.W. Brands.

Marni I am going to write it on my library list. Thanks for telling about it.

Doubt if I have ever posted here before.

Anyway, I can recommend "AWOL, the Unexcused Absence of America's Upper Classes from Military Service--and How It Hurts Our Country". Authors are Kathy Roth-Douquet and Frank Schaeffer. She is married to a Marine and he is the father of a former Marine.

A blurb from Sen. John McCain says, "I commend their wisdom and patriotism to all Americans". Foreword is by General Tommy Franks. Tom Brokaw says, "AWOL is a powerful and timely account of those missing in action--the privileged class of America staying out of uniform and out of harm's way".

Passage: For the first thirty-odd years of America's leadership in the world, for the period just preceding World War II and until the end of the Vietnam War in 1973, the United States staffed its large armed forces with volunteers and with conscripts, also known as draftees. This standing army was also what is called a mass army--one that is drawn from all of society.

...One residual result of the era when all classes served was that up until the 1990s, veterans were overrepresented in Congress (in percentage terms more congressmen had military experience than did the general public). It was considered very appropriate that those who would lead would first serve, "pay their dues", particularly when they might eventually craft policy that would send another generation of Americans into harm's way.

Wouldn't one hope that those who had seen the true horror of war, might 'craft policy' that would not send another generation of Americans into harm's way?

The only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them, and I am well aware of the truth of that. What troubles me is that I fear we have reached a place where we are in danger of being the bully. It is only our belief that we are acting out of right principles that saves us now. And that is very close to the dividing line, IMO.

Babi

The man currently calling the shots has never seen a war close up. I cannot imagine Dwight Eisenhover, for instance, getting this country into the current mess.

Between an absence of experience and a lack of imagination, decisions are based on assumptions lacking any contact with reality.

Click Here for Andrew Jackson- His Life and Times, by H.W. Brands

Click Here for “AWOL, the Unexcused Absence of America's Upper Classes from Military Service--and How It Hurts Our Country". Authors are Kathy Roth-Douquet and Frank Schaeffer

Has anyone read AMERICA'S VICTORIES by Larry Schweikart? I've had it on reserve at the Library for quite awhile and am wondering why it is so popular. I must have heard it discussed on C-Span as I know of no one who has read it and recommended it.

Any other good nonfiction books to recommend? I've become a very slow reader due to cataract surgery which has turned my nearsighted eyes into farsighted ones and as yet I have not gotten new prescription glasses; in time I will and hopefully this condition will improve. I never - ever- have had to wear glasses to read, this is new.

Thank you Ella for your post. Click Here for information on "America's Victories" by Larry Schweikart. This is a relative new book released by the Punlisher in May 2006.

Thanks, Harold. I'll get the book eventually from the Library and will read it.

Do you think the Korean war was a victory for America?

Just a few excerpts from the review on B&N site:

"critics fail to understand the real nature of the American military. By seeing everything through the distorted lens of Vietnam -- a war shrouded in harmful myths --they have lost sight of our country's real military record, and the factors that have enabled us to win with remarkable consistency, in situations even more dire than Iraq."

The Vietnam War is "shrouded in harmful myths?" Why hasn't the truth become evident with the passing years? Or, maybe, I haven't been listening?

"The American military has also benefited from a combination of other virtues: the ability to learn from losses and mistakes; the unique autonomy entrusted to our troops; and, ironically, the constant improvements forced by anti-war protestors. When coupled with an unmatched free-market economy, America's fighting forces are fearsome.

We have learned from our losses? What losses are those? And improvements learned from anti-war protestors? Would that be a Cindy Sheehan?

"How the military since the time of the Revolution has constituted an incredible "melting pot" of ethnicities and social classes, creating a culture blind to origins, but open to talent and desire.

How the Higgins Boat (key to the success of D-Day) and the Jeep (the backbone vehicle of World War II) were created by American entrepreneurs, not central planners, and how our economic capacity buried the Axis powers.

Why Abu Ghraib does NOT contradict our respect for individual human life, including our exceedingly humane treatment of prisoners of war, and how a better example of Americans' view of prisoners is the POW rescue at Canabantuan.

How anti-war protestors, by emphasizing "body bags," have led our military inexorably toward more efficient operations that minimize casualties.

How Americans (not the French) put into practice Napoleon's maxim that "every soldier carries a Marshal's baton in his knapsack," and made our front line troops the most autonomous fighters in history.

"Professor Schweikart acknowledges America's blemishes and weak moments, but also exposes the deep-seated anti-American bias of the Left. Based on the lessons of history, he concludes that we will win the War on Terror, through a weapon more powerful than any bomb or rocket: our unique military culture."

Let's hope the author knows whereof he speaks?

Well, I seem to have effectively stopped all conversation here by quoting from Schweikart's book. Didn't mean to........ still haven't got it from the Library although I've been on the reserve list for it for quite awhile.

I'm listening to Andrew Jackson's life story on tape while I exercise, or I should say, WHEN I exercise. I start off so very good for a couple of days and then ................. what? I don't know..it (the book) starts off very good and as I can renew it perhaps I'll get to the second chapter.

What is everyone reading?

The Story of Civilization by Durant.

Robby

"Fiasco, The Military Adventure in Iraq"by the pulitzer prize winner Thomas E. Ricks............another page turner

Interesting book by an interracial child who grew up to be an emmy winning producer of PBS's Frontline and McNeil/Lehrer News. Her father was James "Stump" Cross, a musician/comedian of the mid-twentieth century, and an aspiring actress. Her step-father was Larry Storch of "F-troop" fame.

It's a clear story of how during the mid-twentieth century everyone was confused and confounded about race and how to talk about it. I just wish that someone who is interracial and is not confused and sees the positive side of being multi-cultural would write a book. It seems only those who are disturbed about being interracial write books or go on tv, i guess that's a better story than one about someone who is "healthy" and settled about who they are. .......jean

Mabel that's the truth!

I'm not. I really don't like to read. Envy those who do. I just finished "Jerusalem Countdown" by John Hagee I found it very interesting and easy reading. I would be interested on any comments from more learned persons. Thanks

LORE, how did someone who doesn't like to read wind up in the Books Section of SeniorNet? You're very welcome here, and I hope you find many other interesting books. Be sure and check out some of the other forums in SeniorNet. You're bound to find some that meet your particular interests.

Babi

lore, I too sometimes think I don't really like reading. Yet for one who don't like to read, I certainly read a lot. Perhaps you too read more than you are admiting.

Click Here all of you who may be interested in more information about Lore's present read, Jerusalem Countdown by John Hagee. And Lore do come back with a post here on any book you may find yourself interested in.

Click Here for more information on Jean's current read, "Secret Daughter" By June Cross.

Thanks for the link, Harold......jean

It is sometimes a good way to get opinions. Lore

every message i have posted has brought a stop to the supposed dissusions. I just read "The Ultimate Gift" by Angela Dracup Easy reading.

Oh, the subjects fly thick and fast around here, LORE. We often have 2 or 3 going, pursued by different posters. Then something else catches attention and we're off on another track. Stick around; you'll get used to us.

What is "The Ultimate Gift" about?

Babi

a scientist presents evidence for belief.........this has nothing to do with creationism or intelligent design.....the author is a leading geneticists and the head of the Human Genome Project.......most interesting..........

Lore let me add another comment concerning this board. First it is difficult to get real deep in any particular specialized discussion thread. This is because it would be unusual for the interest of the people who follow this board to coincide to the extent necessary to generate a real discussion thread among several deeply interested participants. Most of the post here I think are more intended to simply announce what the particular person is reading and finding interesting. Others may ask a question and make a follow-up comment. I as DL will try to give a B&N link to the book for further publisher\’s and critical comments. Only rarely will a longer discussion results. Yet several actual formal book discussions have followed from comments first suggested here.

Another factor is my available time for attention here that when I am leading a book discussion, as I am now (Undaunted Courage) most of my Seniorsnet time goes there, limiting the time I can spend here. I appreciate the help of my co DL, Ella, and the frequent presence of BaBi and other DL Though the Undaunted Courage discussion will soon finish, I now find that my next 6- weeks will be occupied vacating my Guadalupe County residence that is in the process of sale. This will further limit, but not eliminate, my activity here.

GOOD LUCK, HAROLD. I know well the amount of energy and time consumed by the process of moving. Be wise, and pace yourself. I do hope I will never find it necessary to move again.

Babi

AMEN TO THAT BABI!

I moved about 5 months ago and am still in the process of finding things, buying things that somehow got lost in a long process of selling my home of 45 years. Life changes very quick sometimes.

Good luck, Harold, in cleaning out your country home. I know it must be a bit tough as you built it yourself - am I right? Again, we are forced into changes because of our needs or our age or...........

LORE, we read every post and oftimes we make notes on our pads by our computers. I do, and I get the book mentioned the next trip to the Library if I have the time and it lights a spark within. I can't imagine that social graces have anything whatsoever to do with book discussions here or anywhere.

Thanks for your posts and your interest and I do hope you will participate in one of our book discussions that last oftimes a month or so. I'll bring a review of the book you mentioned here; did you enjoy it?

WOW! GREAT REVIEWS FOR THE ULTIMATE GIFT BY ANGELA DRACUP!

Here is a review by the Publisher but all the readers gave the book 5 stars. Thanks, LORE, for the recommendation.

Red Stevens owned everything a man could ask for and gave his family a piece of that everything. However, right before he died Red Stevens realized one thing. Red looked down along the long list of things he gave his family and suddenly came to the conclusion that he had given them nothing by giving them everything. While most of his family were lost causes because of his mistake, one stood out with potential to learn. That one was in store for the year to end all years. That one was his nephew Jason

The Ultimate Gift, written by Jim Stovall, is a story of Red Stevens, an accomplished man, who learned too late that giving material things is more like taking than giving. He learned too late for all except his nephew Jason.

The Ultimate Gift takes the reader through Jason’s incredible work to gain his Uncle Red’s inheritance, “the ultimate gift.”

Every step of the way there is a lesson for Jason and the reader. Things such as values, hard work, the appreciation for money, and the love of giving are taught to Jason. Uncle Red hits a homerun when he teaches Jason the most important lesson of all