Greatest Generation ~ Tom Brokaw ~ Part I ~ 4/00 ~ Export

Jean, are your folks still living? I think this discussion should spark conversations for those of you who are fortunate to still have the "greatest" among you. Please share their insights and memories with us too?

Thanks Betty and Bill! "The best of times. The worst of times" That says it all doesn't it?

Fran! Shirley! Chicago! Chicago! We had a time with Studs, didn't we? I think this discussion will go beyond the War, although it certainly played a major role....Britta is a constant reminder of the war, having survived the bombing of Dresden. Happy to have you back with us for this discussion! A different perspective, but what a lesson in survival and a positive attitude you bring to the table!

Diane & Aquarius67, what do they call us..."Tweeners"? Two late to be called "greatest", too early to be "boomers"? What do you all say? Where does the greatest generation start and end?

Whatever! While you're here, you are all the "greatest"! Welcome aboard!!!

I was born in '34, a little too young to be counted as part of The Greatest Generation, but married one of them and count many of that generation among my dearest friends. They ARE special.....did so much and never expected much in return. I'll look forward to this discussion.

My father was in the war, as a Red Cross Field Director, and he was born in 1900! I certainly consider him a member of The Greatest Generation, as I do my husband, who was born in 1925 and was in the Navy. Altho I was in college during the war, I worked in war related jobs during the summer. I think The Greatest Generation covers more than one age group...and the Boomers were the babies born to the younger members of TGG.

Love...Katie

Two late to be called "greatest", too early to be "boomers"? YOUR Time will come, We had wars in your time they were called cold wars and cold they were to our precious VETS I do hope there will be more about our Precious cold war VETS soon as they have served OUR COUNTRY WELL.

I have ordered the Book and intend to be here but I will be coming in on a wing and a prayer. Love Ginger

Fellow Senior Netters, we are embarked in this forum on a gigantic voyage which will in words re-create our experiences of almost one hundred years. Tom Brokaw stated in his book that "1920 was an auspicious year for a young person to enter the world as an American citizen." Some of us began our lives at that time; others came on the scene years earlier or later. For all of us, however, our generation continues up to the present day.

In my mind are two thoughts regarding myself which I wish to share with you. First -- I was a 1920 baby. This September I will be 80 years old. My father was a World War I veteran; I lived through the prosperous years after that war; I lived through the depression; and I am now a veteran of World War II. I consider myself eligible to be one of those who speak for the generation that Brokaw describes as the "greatest." But then, so are many of you.

Secondly, perhaps some of you may remember the slogan expressed in the Sixties by the young people -- "What if they declared war and nobody came." And I think now -- what if they designatd me as leader of this discussion and nobody comes to discuss anything? The result would be too horrible to imagine but it emphasizes the fact that you (ALL OF YOU!!) are the engine which will make this Discussion Group move. Many many Senior Netters are members of the generation described in Brokaw's book.

Generations are nothing more than a combination of individuals. Brokaw spoke of his childhood and the effect his parents had upon him. You might want to speak of your earliest character-building memories. Who or what made you what you are today? You may consider yourself ordinary but Brokaw reminds us in his book that "extraordinary acts come from ordinary people."

And so -- hoist sails!! Many of the crew are already on board. We're on our way!!

Robby

Thanks for this great opportunity! I was born in 29 and lived with my parents until age 6 upon which I moved into my grandparents house to be raised...I remember how my grandfather felt so left out when considering the war times...He was too young to enter the military for World War I and then he was too old for the military in World War II...he admired the veterans who marched the streets on Veterans Day and would remove his hat to place over his heart emotionally when the flag was carried past the crowd of people gathered. Today I feel he was not that deprived and did not really comprehend the awful realities of war...Now-- my father said that the military was to be controled by the civilians in the US government believing that the military needed restraints...He had entered the military in WWII..I look forward to the ensueing discussions folks! Thanks again! Ann

When the discussions begin on the "Greatest Generation," may we digress somewhat and inject some of our own thoughts and experiences of those times. Or will we be limited to the book.

I hope we can tell some of our own experiences and thoughts.

Ann Thamm, Although your grandfather was not in the military during either of the two world wars, I'm quite sure he contributed to the war effort as so many folks did in those times. And that effort was so necessary in bringing those conflicts to a victorious conclusion.

There was a home front and a battle front. And all of us who were in the armed forces salute those people for supporting us.

Bilsom:

By all means "inject" some of your own thoughts and experiences. That is what will enrichen this discussion. Naturally we would hope that you would have the oppourtunity to read Brokaw's book and comment on it but even without the book you undoubtedly have many memories and philosophies to share with us.

Please keep in mind that we are not speaking only of the "war effort" but any memory you may have which you believe helped to make that particular generation a "great generation." It could be something your parents or grandparents shared with you regarding the period before World War II. Greatness often starts with childhood.

Robby

Lorrie:

You say you "can't wait to get into the discussion when it comes." Well, it's here. What are your thoughts about that "special" generation?

Robby

Pat Westerdale:

You describe yourself as "one of the older of the Greatest Generation" and that you see "great strides" having been taken in the last 60-70 years. Do you remember the year 1930? What was different then?

Robby

Robby, don't listen to Pat! She's a "greatest" wanna-bee! This is going to be great, Bill! Tom Brokaw intended his book to serve as a "catalyst for dialogue that will profit later generations." As Robby noted, that's what we are looking for here. Your responses, your experiences as we move through the chapters of the books next week!

Untill we have our books would you consider putting a few focus questions in the heading to help us get a thread going here?

Jean Seagull:

You were born in 1929. What do you remember of those years from 1929 to 1939 - whether individual memories or of things going on around you? I have lost track of how many times I have heard people alive during those years say: "As I look back now, I realize we were poor, but I didn't know it at the time. Times were hard but I didn't know it. Everyone else was in the same situation."

Robby

Britta:

In other Roundtables you have told us so much about your past difficult experiences. Who or what helped you to become the strong child you obviously were?

Robby

I hope a get one of the books offered. I wish I would have read them, before this time. Just so many good books, its hard to decide what to read first.

This discussion will be of interest to all ages. My Dad served in WWII and was a POW in Germany (or Purrussia) for 9 months. My mom was a 'Rosey' in the local shipyards. They met after the war, when he went to get his job back. She was doing it!

My parents have pasted away. My sister got interested in my Dad's war record and got incontact with the VFW. on the net. They got together and she received all my Dad's Medels (some that were issued, even after his death.) She even got a copy of his discharge papers.

I'll be here to read all the discussions.

Eveamarie:

You are so right! "This discussion will be of interest to all ages." Good to have you with us!

Robby

Barb, the book discussion won't get started until next week, so there will be not discussion questions in the heading until then. The "thread" is simply introductions...and to figure out just who this greatest generation is. Next week we'll learn and talk about who Tom Brokaw is referring to! What do you thnk? Where do you fit in? Some of us aren't quite sure!

It would also be worthwhile to talk to family members, friends, neighbors who are not on-line, but would love the opportunity to talk and share memories. If we each brought one other person into this discussion think of how much richer, how deeper our understanding of this generation...

AnnT ! Evamarie! Needlesnpins! KKatie! Ginger Your presence is noted and entered into the registry of the greatest! Welcome!

I am a member of what I have heard called "The Silent Generation." The one just before the Boomers. But I grew up in Chicago where the war was very much with us even after it was over. I remember Victory Gardens---they continued to be called that after the war. I remember playing Americans vs the Germans instead of Cowboys and Indians. I remember when balloons were again available for birthday parties. I remember veterans who had lost limbs in the war.

Bill---Jump in with any personal experiences whenever you can. One of my favorite things is hearing other people's stories. Digress away. It's all part of the discussion.

Maryal

It was the optimism of my parents that taught us to believe that better times are coming. We really never came to the point of despair. Keeping the family on an even keel was my father's priority. Our strength came through him, my mother and our belief in God.

So if I understand you correctly, Britta, whatever "great" traits we may have had or now have, many of them were derived from the "great" traits of our parents. Traits which enabled us to survive through the most difficult times.

Robby

How do all of you define the word "great" as applied to people you know or have heard about? Look at a member of your family, or your next door neighbor, or a co-worker, or a school teacher or principal. Would you apply the adjective "great" to any of them? Why? This is no time for excessive humility. Look at yourself. Would you in all objectiveness describe yourself "great" in one way or another? Has anyone you know described you as "great?" Why?

Great generations are made up of great people. Sometimes the traits which lead to that greatness start early in life. As you go through life, what have you seen around you?

Robby

Robby

Between '29 &'39 my family went through drastic changes. We moved from Philadelphia (which I don't remember) to Mount Dora, FLA where I was a happy child, but knew my father was struggling since he went from job to job. When we moved to Elbert Co.,GA to his father's farm believe me I KNEW WE WERE POOR...no electricity, no indoor plumbing, no telephone, my mother learning to milk cows, can foods, etc.etc. just make do. Her PA sister sending us hand-me-downs & postage stamps. Believe me the Depression lasted a long time in the south. My father had been too young for WW I & was too old for WW II, but he went to Brunswick, GA to build barracks & we were able to buy a decent house. It was the war that rescued us from poverty & made it possible to send me to college.

Jean Seagull:

You are exemplifying the hardships that helped some of that generation to become great. Was it Emerson who said "adversity builds character?" You strike a chord with me. I, also, knew about outdoor plumbing and the famous Sears Roebuck catalog that so many of the younger generation think is a joke - if they knew anything about it at all. I studied by the light of a kerosene lamp until I was in the sixth grade. I remember wearing a green eyeshade so the flickering yellow light wouldn't hurt my eyes.

As you say, the war rescued many from poverty but many many people had become "great" during the depression years. Thank you for sharing your memories of those hard times with us.

Robby

Of course I'm too young to be considered part of the "Greatest Generation" :~) but I have enjoyed the book. I do remember those simpler times, although I was only three when the war started, I'm not sure that the US is a better place in which to live these days despite all of the advancements in technology, health care, etc.??? The chapter (story) I have enjoyed the most in "the Greatest" was of Lefty Caulfield and the ROMEO Club, every kid should have a corner! I did.

Dave

Zipster:

Whether you consider yourself part of the "Greatest Generation" or not, your comments are welcomed. Please stay with us.

Robby

Robby thanks for the gracious welcome, I'm a rookie at this posting thing, never had the interest to get involved, first time to the seniornet site also. My brother and his wife visit this page every day, they read quite a bit more than I.

Dave

Zipster:

Well, now you're no longer a rookie! Ask your brother and his wife to participate in Greatest Generation, too.

Robby

Ok, Robby, will do, gotta go, we're leaving tomorrow am for N. Myrtle Beach SC.for a week, hope to finish the book while we're there. By the way we're from Nags Head, NC. See you in a week.

Dave

Welcome, Dave----I see that you found the right folder. You and I are part of the generation sometimes called The Silent Generation.

I was five when the war ended, but I was born late in my parents' marriage, and was brought up by people who were shaped and formed by the Great Depression and both world wars. My dad was born in 1899. Had I been born early in their marriage, I would have been born in the twenties sometime, instead of the forties. Interesting to think about.

Maryal

Maryal:

Would you expand a bit on your expression "shaped and formed by the Great Depression?"

Robby

Robby---Sure, glad to. Even though I did not live through the Depression, my older sister did. We were a family who always stayed at the dinner table after dessert and talked. I heard many stories about those days when one chicken would do for two meals, or maybe more, depending on the size of the chicken.

My father saved string off packages (remember back when packages came wrapped up in brown paper with string? He also saved rubber bands. He saved envelopes from correspondence and used the backs for notes and grocery lists. In his old age, he continued to save. He saved the "twistees" that bread and other bakery products are closed with. Every time I went to visit him, I joked with him about this habbit. Once I opened a kitchen drawer that was completely full of little plastic twistees. He also saved the little tins that chicken pot pies come in. Washed them out and saved them.

I was one of the last of my friends to get a 28 inch bike because we were waiting for me to reach my full height! (I am 5'11") My mother never had a clothes dryer---they lived in Maine.

I have a story my father told me. His father had made some foolish investments---mines out west that didn't exist, etc---and had wasted away what the family had. One night when my father was about ten, he went downstairs to ask his mother something and found her weeping over a pile of bills, seated at her "secretary" (desk). He told me that he vowed to himself right then that no woman he ever took care of would have to cry like that over money.

My father got a scholarship to college and paid all of his future education. He took good care of my mother, my sister, and me, as he had promised. I think of him as a great man. He was also very loving, spending time with his family.

Maryal

Maryal:

Thank you so much for helping us to understand what makes a person "great." I think specifically of your father. I think of the terms you use - "he vowed to himself" - he took good care "as he had promised" - "paid all of his future education."

Your father was not in the White House; he did not become a billionaire; his name was not broadcast across the nation - but his life was shaped and formed by the Great Depression and he became "great."

You must be so proud!!

Robby

Kath:

Based upon your comments and the life you remember, would you say that hardships help to make a person "great?"

Robby

Kath:

Doesn't "plodding on through whatever is thrown at us" take courage, fortitude, strength, resilience, and a few other traits that may lead to "greatness?"

Robby

Kath:

Your Granny "did what she had to." Other participants here might have some thoughts in that direction.

Robby

Kath----I think you hit the nail on the head. It is never in our own minds that we are great. It is people whom we affect who may later, perhaps after we are dead, remember us fondly and think of us as "great."

Maryal

Two separate ways of looking at it:--

1 - Doing what we need to do but not thinking of ourselves as great.
2 - Being seen nevertheless as great in the eyes of others.

So who makes a generation great - those performing the actions or those observing? Sounds like a philosophical question but I submit that it is an important practical question. Tom Brokaw describes that generation as the "greatest." Does that generation see itself as such?

Robby

An example: When things were so terribly tight financially during the Depression, and my father was becoming overwhelmed by debts, someone suggested to him that he declare bankruptcy, and he just looked at the suggestor. He simply couln't comprehend anyone failing to take responsibility for his own failings, and the word itself was an anathema to him. His feelings were the same when someone else suggested "going on relief." He would have starved rather than put himself through what he regarded would be utter humiliation. Those feelings were passed down to his children, and I personally feel the same way, even with the changes in society's views.

Lorrie

Lorrie adds more thoughts concerning characteristics that made Brokaw call that generation the "greatest" -- "couldn't comprehend anyone failing to take responsibility" -- "would have starved rather than go on relief" - and all those "great" traits and accomplishments took place long before the United States entered World War II.

Hardship had already existed in the form of the Great Depression. May I suggest that the young folks of today don't understand why that word "great" exists before the word "depression". Very few people escaped it.

Robby

Joan P. said "Tom Brokaw intended his book to serve as a 'catalyst for dialogue that will profit later generations.' As Robby noted, that's what we are looking for here."

I'm in one of those later generations - born in '59 (also a tweener, not a boomer, not an x-er), but I would like to profit from your experiences. I must confess I take umbrage at any generation being termed "the greatest" but I'm here to learn.

Why is this generation the greatest? Why greater than later generations - or earlier - that also fought wars or lived through hard times? I know nothing compares to living through the great depression (I have parents and grandparents and have heard all about it), but I'd like to know anyway.

I just signed up for the free Brokaw book & I am so glad that you are going to discuss this interesting book. I read his first book last year & will be checking it out at the library to refresh my memory.

Lorrie: where in Minnesota? We have relatives all over the state and our family is driving & flying to Lake Kabatogama in June do you know that area north of Duluth? Carol

Sarah:

You ask the key question. Brokaw said that this particular generation was united by common values - "duty, honor, economy, courage, service, love of family and country, and, above all, responsibility for oneself." You say that you have heard about the Great Depression from your parents and grandparents. What have you heard? What are your reactions to what they told you?

Robby

Maryal, You told us how your Dad saved string and things. I had an uncle that saved string. He would tie the pices togeather and roll them up into a big ball. He also saved aluminum foil, it too was rolled up into a large ball. Then he would take the almuninum foil ball to the local war effort center and turn it in. Just one more way of making our generation great.

But you know, I still write shopping lists on the back of envelopes. Not that I'm "cheap." It's just that I can't find any note pads when I need them so I pick up the nearest circular mailing envelope and write on that. On my desk I have evelopes with phone numbers, notes, messages and what have you. It's a great convenience these advertisers affords us.

Robert b, I apply the word "great" to my first-grade teacher. She taught me how to read!!! However, my spelling teacher gave up on me

Sarah asked the questions I would ask. Why is our generation "the greatest?" If one would ask me what was the greatest generation in America, I would say those men/women of 1776 that shaped this nation, that fought the war that saved this nation, drafted our constitution and did it wisely so that it has endured. I don't mean to give a history lesson, but I disagree with Brokaw about the "greatest" generation.

Terrible- yes, we have endured three wars in my lifetime. Turbulent- yes, the cold war with Russia seemed never-ending. Terrific - that too, the prosperity that came to most of us after WWII allowing us to have more than our parents did. Most of us were able to buy and keep a home, give our children more than we were given; and by more I don't necessarily mean material goods.

That does not add up to the "greatest." But I will reserve judgment until I read the book.

I too signed up for the book and am reserving judgement and comments til I read it .(enjoy it while you can gang, this is a rarity for me--the opinionated talker)

The Greatest Generation, to me, were too young during the depression to earn that title. It was the men and women serving during World War ll on two fronts and at home. All that they accomplished and went on to do to develope in the world has to be considered to earn the title of the greatest generation.

Shirley:

At what age does a person gain the traits that lead to greatness? A few decades ago the Boy Scouts of America conducted a survey and found that a highly significant number of Eagle Scouts became officers during World War II. Some of the Scouting leaders wanted to use this information to show that becoming Eagle Scouts enabled them to later become officers. Some researchers questioned this, however, asking: Did becoming Eagle Scouts lead them toward becoming officers or were these young men originally of the caliber to become officers even if they had never been Eagle Scouts?

Where did their "greatness" begin? Is it possible that those people who endured the hardships described in earlier postings when they were young became better prepared for the hardships of war?

At what point does an "ordinary" person, as Brokaw says, begin to do "extraordinary" things?

Robby

Robbie, all that you point out is true. As children, hopefully. My impression of the Greatest Generation was of the people serving during the war. The common person. Of course there were the leaders. When did a person begin to do the extraordinary? When called on by circumstances or desire? When needed.

I have requested the first book and looking forward to partisapating in this discusion as I was born in 33 and have lived it. We were just coming out of the deppresion when I was born but I remember the out house's and the great radio etc. It is so good to hear from all.

Carol I know Katogama (spelling) well have fish there often as I was born In International Falls, Mn. Ginger

Bill---My dad saved aluminum foil also. I had forgotten that. Someone--have forgotten, sorry, earlier said that the rubber bands that come around asparagas are particularly good. I agree and save those also! They are nice and wide, and just the right size to go around something--an address book, say---without having to go around twice.

And there is nothing wrong with having problems with spelling. A few years back, Yale did a big study on spelling, trying to find out if the ability to spell correlated with anything else, like intelligence, or ability to do math. I don't remember all the categories, but the results were encouraging--there seems to be no correlation between the ability to spell and anything else! I am truly thankful for this study as I have always had trouble spelling. Both my children did also, and both are very bright. English is a nearly impossible language to spell anyway. I was a good speller in French.

Maryal

I was born the end of ww1,was in the depression ,and the general strike of Great britain ,which I well remember ,going to pick coal on the railway sidings,I then went through ww11.I was in England then.I have been an american for 32 yrs. Britta hello ,I well remember your nice email. Mary al ,and Kathy hi to you .I am 82,have a lot to share.

gladys

I too have requested the first book for this discussion. The previous one, "The Good War", and the wind up gathering in Chicago with Studs and such a memorable group of Seniornetters was a high point. I look forward to this new dicussion get-together. If we are the Greatest Generation then I am with Robby - one of the Seniors!

Hi to old friends! Betty.

Oh my! This is going to be super! So many people crushing the gates that we hardy have time to greet you all! DAVE, the Zipster, I see that little Corvette parked out front! Our newest SN member! A royal WELCOME! As soon as you return, hurry back to join us!

Maryal, that's right! The "silent generation"! I remember now! There were five of us in the family. The youngest were boomers! They have different values. They "inhaled", marched, protested - made themselves heard. We watched bemused...There are many of us here. In many ways we were more like our parents. I think when we get into the book, we will find ourselves, and our voices!

Hello, Gladys! You are one of the "greatest" as young SarahT is about to find out! And look over there - gathered around the punch bowl already...in basic black - Lorrie, Kath, Shirley, Ruth, Carole, Hendy (did they get it this time, Hendy?) You've all been registered on the list of the "greatest". Make yourself at home - you've all got stories to tell, we're certain! Will be looking for you on the 16th, book or no!

Hello, just dropping in after an intriguing invite by e mail...so I am looking around. Came in here first, as directed, and will be back!

Vera

GLADYS HELLO Yes I do think you have alot to share so I am waiting my friend . It is so nice to have you to share with us, and NOW you know where I have been spending my time .Love you Gingee to you my friend I will always will be Gingee. I am going to MINN to a gathering of my girl cousins and they all call me Gingee.You have all ways been special to me.

Where alll my boy cousin's aw they are working. I am the oldest cousin alive AND am thankful for being alive.

Gingee to you only.

Hi there Vera Just keep, keeping on to THIS discussion and you wil not be disapointed If you are Please email me.

Senior net Friends for sure.

Love, Ginger

HENDIE I sure wish I could see you in England but so be it and I so did enjoy you in Chicago. My Pleasure for sure.

Wishing and praying for your good health. <Hey Hendie I am asking for all that pray may pray for you. OK. I have not to the best of my remberence ever ask for prayer on the net but I am asking this for you to be OK , Alright

Gladys:

You were born, as you say, "near the end of World War I" so you remember events in England similar to what American participants have mentioned here, eg picking up coal near the railway sidings and other hardships which apparently have helped to make the Greatest Generation what it is. I'm sure you will have many remembrances to share with us.

Betty H: We used to call you Hendie. How do you want to be addressed now? Good to have you with us!

Robby

Welcome, Gladys!--I am so very glad to see you here. Certain that you do have many memories to share with all of us.

Maryal

Looking forward to everyone's sharings here, especially you Gladys. I have always enjoyed your experiences. I believe that is one of the things that makes you and others, among the Greatest Generation. The fact that you lived during the hardest of times and were able to use this adversity in the positive manner of surviving. There are others of us who benefit greatly in our beliefs and values, by listening and heeding.

I believe one of the main things that set this period apart as being the greatest, is an innate feeling of taking responsibility for one's actions. There was no thought of placing "blame" for what happened on any other faction. This, of course, was instilled in us by our parents. I do not know what has changed today, but my thoughts are that through the years many of us have mistakenly tried to "protect" our children from the necessary life experiences. We (or at least myself), tend to want to "shield" our children from hardship or adversity...wanting fervently to give them all the opportunities we did not have. Consequently, today there are many (not all, thank God) people of todays generation who are always in quest of something better and not willing to take responsibility for anything. They have no conception what hard work is. I do have hope for this generation of today...but it is going to be very difficult to reinstate the values of our ancestors. I caught on to my mistake of "overprotection" too late, unfortunately...but thank God, my teachings to my children were balanced with those of my husband, who had a more intelligent knowledge of these things.

This is going to be so interesting...and bring awareness to so many.

Eddie

thank you all for the welcome,gingee,yes now I know but my branch lonely. Eddie you were always kind in your feelings ,I love you for that . And Kathy ,Vera Maryal,how nice to be together in this to me an adventure.My greatest thrill thru all these yrs was to see my computer tick over to 2000.wow that was wonderful ,also being here to see it Robbie and Joan,this is going to be great.gladys

I am one of those who grew up during the depression.

We lived on a small farm next to a small Minnesota town and some of the values Brokaw claims were evident not only in the family but in the community.

But it isn't all that simple.

For some the depression was a catalyst for other less admirable human traits.

I saw this side of the depression as well when as a youngster I sometimes went with my uncle (guardian) who took me along as he performed various duties as a deputy sheriff (a job he took to supplement the meagre income from the farm)

Both in urban and rural areas people sometimes resorted to less than admirable means of survival.

Ours was basically a share and we'll all work this out together set of values.

Many local farmers lost their land to speculators who picked up land cheap and became a whole new class of oppressive landlords.

Fortunately the man who held the mortgage on our farm was not one of those but carried us on minimum payments of interest when he could have foreclosed on it instead.

Jim O! It sounds as if we have another Charter member of the GG in our midst! You will bring a rich source of hard information - as will Gladys! (How long did you live in England, Gladys?) We will be all ears when the GREATEST speak!

Eddie Marie, you bring up an important point...say we do identify some of the key values that seem to be missing in today's generation. What can we do with this information? The answer to that may well be our legacy to the future!

I lived in England,till the age of 31.we then emigrated to Nm. I had two daughters born there.My husband was very sick ,so went home because ,we had no insurance.We lived in Egland until 67,when my husband, who was A Scot got ichy feet again. so he came to Ny,where we have been for 32 yrs.I have been a widow now for five yrs,we used to have guy falkes day here,a lot of you will know .the kids went round collecting for ~~the guy~.It was during the general strike here ,I found my mother crying,reason!no money.I went round all the houses singing my heart out ~penny for the guy ~,God bless you.I earned all of four and a half pence,ran home and gave it to my mother,It probably would buy two loaves then.to see my mother smile was wonderful.We had to get our selves off to school.Iremember one day spilling a pan of boiling water on my foot,it was a mess.I had no one to turn to only my younger sister.I went to School,didnt tell any one because my socks had holes in them.it took weeks to heal,but even kids had their pride.Gladys

Oh, Gladys---How happy your mother must have been to see the money you got for "the guy." And your Poor Feet. I do understand that you would ordinarily have shown them to your friends, but didn't want to b because your socks had holes.

Joan--I think Pride---the good kind of proud when we are proud of ourselves for something, like being brave maybe---is something we need more of these days. People used to make a big deal out of "taking pride in one's work," and I can remember my father and mother wanted to deal with certain people because they took pride in their work.

Maryal

Gladys:

In your very moving comments, you used the word "pride" that even kids had. Do you see that as a trait common among children nowadays?

Robby

Well I guess being born in '38' puts me somewhat in there. Just where remaines to be seen. I remember some things like the ration coupons, my Dad's cousin was in the Army and when he came home he lived with us as his Father had gone back to Sweden. We lived in Chicago in a 2 bedroom apartment, my Grandfather, my Uncle, my Dad's cousin my sister and I of course Mom and Dad. My sister and I ate first and the adults ate what we left, Grandpa always said the Flicka's first. I must admit I barely remember this, but there was plenty of love. My Dad's job would't let him go when he got drafted they needed him here to inspect the air plane engines that his factory made, they made mining machinery befor the war but changed over. We moved out of Chicago into the burbs and we had a garden, then there was plenty to eat. My Great Uncle was in WW1, I have his discharge papers all framed and wraped up, but the best part he lived to be an old man and I knew him very well, he was injured and never able to work after that spent a lot of time in the Vets Hospital.

I read all the posts so far just to see if I fit in I guess I do. But about which generation is the greatest that is a big question.

Carollee:

Everyone fits in!! Please stay with us and continue to participate.

Robby

I'll be back Robby it sounds like this could very well be a good discussion. I am looking forward to it.

As for shoes that needed soles my Dad had an anvil in the basement and would buy leather (I think) and put soles on for us. Our first year in the burbs was different as no one was a farmer except my Grandfather who came from Sweden around 1910 and it was very cold there and there crops were planted very deep, well needless to say some things came up other didn't, but we sure laughed about it I remember that.

Speaking of pride, my mother was a very "proud" woman in the finest sense of the word. (That is the Swedish side of me). I must have been around five years old but I remember vividly her taking me down to the polling place to watch her vote. Of course, my very young mind had no idea that this wonderful community-minded family-oriented woman had only been "allowed" to vote for the previous six years or so. Allowed, mind you!! Talk about hardship! The previous years must have been very difficult for this person who was highly intelligent and had thoughtful opinions on everything.

I have voted in every election for the past 58 years and I have no doubt that my mother's influence has been strong in this regard. I, also, am proud to be an American and the fact that I have a voice.

Robby

carollee---You and I are in the same generation. Let me know if you figure out what it is!

Maryal

~pride~I dont think kids with every thing falling in their laps have the same pride,they have so much no room for real down to earth pride,the pride of having to putting a new collar on a dress,for xmas

I really think ,they miss a lot with having a lot.Ifeel I have really lived,seen so much hardship,but in doing so,my path has crossed so many wonderful people and happenings.you cant have one without the other.so sad to hear kids say I am bored!! I didnt know the meaning of the word.

gladys

carollee, are you new to SeniorNet? Does this call for fanfare? We start the discussion of the book(s) on Sunday...hopefully most people will have books in hand by then. Of course you can share your memories, books or not! And I'm sure (I peeked) we will "sort out" just who are among the Greatest...and the greatest who well remember them. Everyone is very welcome, especially YOU!

Pride...accepting responsibility...YES! I can remember back in the forties, shortly after the war, when my mama gathered the 3 of us girls and "absconded" into the night from a very abusive, alcoholic father. She was trained for nothing to support us. She lied in response to an add placed in the newspaper. A man was looking for someone to share the driving with him, in exchange for a trip to California. She called him and set up arrangements when to be ready. (Mama had never driven a day in her life!) She just knew that she had a very dear friend in California & it would be somewhere for us to get on our feet. She worked in a cannery & went to school nights to become a nurse. Bless her soul...she had told us that daddy was very ill and unable to stop himself from destruction...but...she would take care of us, until the day that he was ready to be helped. She knew we had seen the beatings and many nights, being the oldest (5 or 6), I had shinnied out of a window, into the dark, to beg a neighbor's help. But she never said a bad word against our father to us...she just removed us from it! One time, when we had no food at all...she broke down & went to the salvation army, head held high and asked for help. She cried all the way back home. Her first paycheck, she bought everything she had received from them...placed it in a wagon and with all 3 of us in tow...pulled it to the Salvation Army and returned it, with her thanks. I know this necessitated her walking to work for the next 2 weeks, rather than riding the bus...but she insisted to us that there were people worse off than we were waiting for that food. THAT instills pride and a sense of responsibility.

So good to see all of you here. Carollee, Gladys I know you will enjoy and we will enjoy you. Thanks for sharing.

Mother was a very proud person she worked at the Studebaker factory and did well.

Dad was a steeplejack and made good money but he was a gambler so there is where his money went.

I just love all this comradship here. It just fills my heart with joy.

Ginger

Eddie, Gladys---Please continue with the stories. How wonderful they are to read. Eddie---your mother was very brave. In those days, women generally stayed with abusive drinkers, "for the sake of the children." Thank God, your mother saw that the children were receiving nothing but bad lessons from their situation. HOW DID YOUR MOTHER learn to drive?????? Apparently she got you all to California. What a wonderful lesson you learned from going with your mom when she returned the food to the Salvation Army.

Maryal

Eddie ,so sad for you yet you just glow now. ginger hi ,yes I feel at home home. dear Carolee do join us,already know you ,will be looking for you . Gladys

Halaluya, Halaluya, Halaluya.

I have been babtised for the second time in my life. Marcie canged my name from Bilsom and babtised me Bill H. I know my sainted mother, who I know is heaven, will always hold Marcie in high regard for restoring my name to me

Bill

Hey, Bill, welcome as Bill. And your sainted mother is no doubt most pleased indeed.

Eddie:

I was very touched by the part of your story in which your mother RETURNED the food to the Salvation Army. I can just imagine how they reacted. And I can see in my mind's eye your mother's head held high as she did it. And I have a sneaking hunch that she was accompanied by three little girls whose heads were also held high. This was a perfect example of the meaning of Emerson's comment that "Adversity builds character." In my personal opinion, this wonderful trait of your mother during hard times plus similar traits of millions of others is what makes a generation "great."

Robby

Gladys; I too was born in England around the end of WW1. I remember we had gas for lighting in the house when I was very young, all the jets had to be lit every evening being careful not to touch the mantle or it would fall to dust. I never collected coal but we used to dash out and collect the horses' droppings as garden fertilizer! Remember the old joke about putting it on the rhubarb and the reply being "That's funny we put custard on ours!"?

Robby;"Hendie" is OK, I like it, I like it (like Mikie).

Ginger; I'm not home yet, I'm starting my drive home to Ontario on Friday - will take three days, nice and easy. Then I've got to go with that kidney stone thing again, and I'm supposed to get the knee re-replaced and GK what else!! Thank you so much for the prayers I'm gonna need them. If I could just get everything fixed for once it would be a great relief!!!

Betty

Bill...a big "Re-welcome"! Marcie is in touch with the Saints, you know! She got the word directly from your mother probably! That's nice, I will enjoy calling you Bill...knowing that somewhere up there, their is a proud mother smiling.

Maryal...my mother never did learn to drive! When she presented herself to this gentleman, at the "pick-up point", she had all 3 of us in tow carrying my youngest sister in one arm (who, I am sure because of the trauma, had announced she had polio and couldn't walk!), and a paper sack full of our belongings, in the other and me holding my other sisters hand. She apologized to the gentleman for having lied...but told him she was desparate for a way to California and had no where else to turn. The poor soul, looking astonished and very disgruntled, had not the heart to turn her away. He explained that he had no time, nor money, for stopping and needed to drive straight through...that's why he needed another driver. But, he relented and herded us all in. (a little aside to the story...he stopped 2 nights and paid for a room for the night for mama and us...and he slept in the car. He also stopped and bought sandwich makings & milk for us to eat.) When we got to mama's friends house, they offered him $200.00 for going out of his way for us...but, he refused to take it. Mama never owned a car, we never could afford what she considered a luxury.

Eddie

Betty (Hendie) Wishing you well on your journey home and the very best with your operations. Prayers go with you.

Eddie Did your daughter ever make the purse holder as I was as by a stranger again if I knew where she could get them.

Gladys are you planing to read the book (20th Century: Greatest Generation)? I do think I will enjoy it.

Ginger

Ginger...not yet, she has been so busy with the children. I know she loved the idea and plans to...Will let you know more in an e-mail. Eddie

So happy to be reading in this wonderful new folder. My thanks to Gladys for suggesting that I would enjoy joining this fine discussion.

I definitely am in the "Boomer" generation, BUT have to be honest and say that I tend to think and live more with a much earlier generation. I am very anxious to read Tom Brokaws book AND to be part of this discussion. I love to hear about other people's lives AND opinions. BOTH of these are what help to form generations for us.

Thank you for a very nice folder for us to LEARN all about one another.

Jenny AKA Denver Darling

WELCOME ABOARD, DENVER D! You've come to the right place! Gladys is right - this is going to be a great discussion, with Tom Brokaw's two books providing its direction. I'm sure they will bring forth lots of forgotten memories as well as an appreciation for the values instilled into us from "the greatest generation that ever lived" (Tom Brokaw).

We'll begin the book(s) discussion on- April 16 . Be sure to tune in even if your book has not arrived. We'll have plenty to talk about!

Eddie:

The driver who paid for your mother's food and lodgings and refused re-payment from your mother's friend was of a type difficult to find these days. Would you say that people of his kind were those who helped to create a "great generation?"

Denver:

You say you "tend to think more with a much earlier generation." Would you please expand a bit on that?

Robby

I think maybe my grandchildren represent the hope for a "great" generation. Or at least a move in that direction.

Mine was not. It had sparks- maybe the genesis of greatness, but it was an imperfect, deeply flawed greatness.

This is the generation that swelled the ranks of the Klu Klux Klan during the depression, formed the hate mongering band of Detroit thugs called the Black Legion, joined the German American Bund and admired Hitler, profited fro the war and the misery of others during the depression, (in other words expressed the fulls scope of humanity.)

I don't think we should paint this generation holy and admirable- but take a close look at it in its entirity.

Jim:

Thanks for reminding us to look at the generation which began at approximately 1920 "in its entirety" and ignoring its "deeply flawed greatness." What do you think, folks? Are we deluding ourselves? Is the generation of that period perhaps no greater than any other generation?

Robby

Jim...very well stated, thanks for pointing out the neccessity of our looking at the total picture, in our analysis. There were, of course, many "flawed" characteristics of that generation. This generation too, has its "greats". Though, sometimes it seems that they were more prevalent in our day. In a way, times (even though difficult) seemed simpler then. There was reverence, honesty, loyalty and love of family that was the basis of almost everything. Without appearing disrespectful of people in our era...I do believe that we gave too much trust and loyalty to government. It seems as though we gave up too much control of our values. I think too, when so many women found a new, enjoyed independence in having to work for the war effort...that when the war was over & the men came back home, these women resented having to return to their "home fires". Not to say that independence and your own mind is not a good thing...but, I feel that was when some of the importance of family and respect for authority was traded off. In my opinion this opened the door for change in the values in that generation.

Yes, there is seemingly more problems now and we don't enjoy the same amount of trust and compassion as then...but, don't must of us from that day and time, have a problem with change? Isn't it easier to look back at how good it used to be...than to work at being part of the neccessary change? But I feel more and more of the older generation see the importance of change and the acceptance of new ideas. (Look at all the older of our generation, that have recently flooded the internet!) It is a slow process...but I do feel we are beginning to at least be aware of what the "younger generation" of today has to offer and are realizing we can be part of the change. It is only through a cooperative effort with each other that we will ever be able to learn how to progress in this generations "problems". Communication is the neccessary element for continued growth and shaping of the future generations.

Eddie

Is there any particular time on Sunday that we can expect to hear from Mr. Brokaw? Shall I skip church? It doesn't matter, they threw me out of the choir, anyway!

Lorrie

I wonder how many of you readers collect "Depression Glass?" Remember those pretty blue thingamabobs we got from electrical posts? Or dish nights at the movies? I've still got an ugly bowl from my mother's collection of casseroles that simply won't wear out!

During those years, the government formed a civilian cadre called the Civilian Conservation Corps, which was semi-military, and which also put a huge army of unemployed youths to work in what we call now environmental projects. The "CCC's" as they were known as, are responsible for building some of the finest arboretums, nature conservatories, and public outdoor parks that endure even today. Like the Works Project Administration. (WPA) Some of the buildings they erected during the late 30's are still standing, and developers have discovered that they're extremely difficult to tear down. I wonder how many of our male readers were saved from chronic joblessness by these programs!

Lorrie

Although I never collected coal, I sure shoveled a lot of it. My grand mother had a large house and it was heated by a COAL furnace! Now not only did the coal have to be shoveled into the coal bin after the coal truck dumped it as close as possible to the bin door, but the coal furnace had to be kept fed and required "feeding" many times a day. Thank god I was in school during the day. After home-work was done, I took my turn "feeding" the furnace. And before bed-time the furnace had to be "banked" so there would be a glo of embers in the furnace for easy starting next morning--I didn't have to do either of those two things. The large handle on the side of the furnace was used for sifting the ashes out of it's huge grate, and then the ashes would be placed in containers and carried out to the yard. They made good traction for icey side walks. How about those good-old-days!!

Just picked up a copy of the book from the library and started reading it. Good introductory essay. Will withhold judgment on the rest of the book until it is clear whether Brokaw avoids the newsman's penchant for concentrating on surface appearances at the expense of depth.

This is certainly a generation worthy of remembering and honoring, but so were some others.

Hello Denver,so very glad to see you .

Jim,I to have thought about that all the shootings in school etc. the worst things cant be overlooked. the great things that occured in spite of them,seems to be the theme great strides in trying to give people help. It has certainly been a generation of good and evil.Sad to say it has been through the ages.I think we are going to struggle with this always.I think the idea of this book ,or thought ,was to compare.In England espcially they did terrible things o people in the prisons,for just being in Debt,hung them in fact.I go home now and see a buetiful city,certainlt things behind the scenes,but there is welfare now for people .We have made great strides and a lot of people have made great effort,but the devil will always hang around. Hendy,nice to see you love ,yes remember the old lamplighters. Eddie,and Kathie and all ,I wont be here sunday ,wil try and catch up . good discussion.gladys

Lorrie:

If I remember correctly (and my memory could be faulty here) the Works Projects Administration was the umbrella under which was the Public Works Administration (built housing as you said), Civilian Conservation Corps (also as you described), and the National Youth Administration for adolescents and young people who could be helped with part time jobs as they tried to continue their education. The main purpose of all that was, to put it simply, "keep them off the streets" and give some something productive to do.

Robby

I know I have told this story somewhere before.it is a striking example of human nature. during world war11,we of course spent almost six yrs in air raid shelters,this particular night ,we were not in the shelters at that time,we heard the guns go off,across the street where we lived. Apparantly a stray bomber had got through,they brought him down in a park just across from us,A crowd gathered round,to see the parachute coming down,the plane was on fire.the crowd started to shout and sing it looked evident,they were waiting for the pilot.He was just a young boy,the authorities hadnt arrived. The crowd gathered round,the women cried and hugged him,he could have been their boy.they took him in for a ``cup of tea``until they came to get him,that was a night of mixed emotions.gladys

Gladys:

A touching story!! I wonder if that "boy" is alive today. No doubt he remembers that and has often told his story.

Robby

Gladys Thank you for sharing.

WELCOME TO ALL YOU NEW POSTERS TO ALL BOOKS AND LITERATURE DISCUSSIONS. Ginger

Eddie----Thanks so much for some more of the story. I can see your mother holding one sister and you holding the other by the hand and the befuddled and disappointed man who thought he had got himself a driver. How kind he must have been. And to pay for a place to stay for your family while he slept in the car! Not to mention the food he provided. And then not taking any money. Wow.

Hi Gladys---another wonderful story.

Maryal

I see there has been a good discussion going on in here. I must agree about the evil things that happened during the war years and wonder how that fits in with being the Greatest Generation. I guess in time we will have at least figured some of it out. Not only the consentration camps of Europe but what we did to our Japanese citizens of which I might add I never learned about in school I am assuming they keep it out of the text books.

Carollee:

It's a dilemma, isn't it? How can millions of people take part in a war which, like all wars, contains evil actions, eg concentration camps and interning of Japanese-Americans -- and, at the same time, be called members of a "great", if not "the greatest" generation? How does a person weigh one against the other?

Robby

Carole good point .I only learned recently that the duke of windsor who abdicated the throne in England,was a traiter during the war Churchhill tried to get him to England ,where he would have been court marshalled.We all thought he was wonderful in my girlish days .he was a great friend of Hitlers..Ionly found out last year by accident looking through some book/

I have been reading all the posts, trying to catch up. I certainly qualify for inclusion in the so-called "Greatest Generation" having been born just a few days before the stock market crash in 1929. (Contrary to what some have said, my birth did NOT cause the market to crash!) I remember my mother raising chickens for eggs and for the pot. I remember my father coming home from a 7 a.m. until 6 p.m. job as a shoe repairman and planting and weeding and tending a huge garden so the family of 4 children would have food on the table. I remember my mother canning jar after jar, with the sweat pouring down her face, of tomatoes and beans and corn and making grape jelly from grapes we picked and cherries from a generous neighbor's trees, just so we would have food during the winter months when the garden could no longer produce. I remember the "hobos" or "tramps" who came to our door because somewhere on our house was a secret symbol telling all who passed through that here lived a "good woman" who would give them what food she could spare. I remember so many things.

No, not all of it was noble and pure and good. We are all of us, of each generation, the sum of many parts--both good and evil.

Phyll

Robby that is good question how does one weight one against the other, there is a saying "alls fair in love and war" it has often made me think about a lot of things.

Gladys on the A&E tv channel not to long ago they had the biography of the Duke Of Windsor and they spent a lot of it on trying to desspell that rumor I guess one will never know how true it is. To bad you didn't get to see it.

Phil my Mother did the same thing with the garden and chickens but we didn't have and hobo's to feed that I know of in our town. She also was a very fine baker and we had all sorts of goodies to eat and a seamstress also, she knitted our sweaters the kids at school thought we were rich but I guess their Mother didn't know how to do those things.

Carolee,thank you wish I had ,remember where I saw it I bought a set of churhills Memoirs for my husband ,it was in one of those.It seems in England no doubt of his guilt.

Carollee---I saw the Biography of The Duke of Windsor on A and E, but I thought they had lots of evidence that he was a Nazi sympathizer at least.

Maryal (oooops---off topic again, o well)

When we started Studs Terkel's book last year...exactly one year ago this week - there were many who questioned the title, The "Good" War. In fact the question came up throughout the discussion, which lasted a good 8 months. A number of us were fortunate to meet with Studs in Chicago this past November. Studs made it very clear, that NO WAR is good. That is why the "GOOD" appears in quotation marks in the title.

This discussion promises to be just as spirited! Sarah begins to question the "greatest" designation for this generation and several more after that. It is up to Mr. Tom B. to present his reasons, supported with examples of greatness in the two books we will start discussion on Sunday. Let's keep an open mind. One of you asked what time TBrokaw would be here on Sunday. Wouldn't that be something? We could ask him why he chose this generation...but we haven't even discussed his books yet! THE BOOK DISCUSSION STARTS ON SUNDAY. Without Tom. Sorry to disappoint! Perhaps when our discussion gets going, he will get wind of it, and we can convince him to come in to answer our questions. I tell you what. We'll keep a running list of all the questions that you would like him to answer and we shall just see if he would agree to come here to chat! I'm sure he's busy. One of the busiest men in America - somewhere after Bill Gates, Regis Philbin...

Back in a minute - someone's at the door....

Even though I know I'll enjoy the book (even if I am a boomer), I'm still contemplating participating in the discussion. Jim Olson's comments have opened the door to speak my doubts. I like the idea of celebrating a certain generation's value, of taking a long look at the strengths, skills, unique qualities that help define a certain era. The wisdom of excluding other generations by naming this one "the greatest" escapes me, however. There is even some irony----I can't see this particular generation boasting and setting itself apart in this way---the generation that worked cooperatively to meet its challenges might have to change its stripes to pretend to feel elevated from.....its children and grandchildren.

Following Jim's thoughts, this was a time in our country when a man's house was his castle and outside authorities did not interfere with how a man governed his family. Mental institutions thrived in each state, crowded with women that husbands had the legal right to "commit" if he and the male doctor thought she was not fulfilling her "natural state" of womanhood well enough---refusing to have a 5th child, for example. African-Americans died while being arrested, or died in jail a few days later or if they lived long enough for a trial to begin, were tried by juries of white people---their peers were not allowed to serve on juries. Some did not live long enough for the luxury of being arrested. Textbooks in segregated schools for Black children often were outdated texts thrown away by schools of white children.

Very poor women of all races were subject to court decisions about newborns. Judges sometimes declared a young mother unfit to raise her child if she was not married, so there were forced adoptions. I recently found out that this happened to someone in my family in the '30's in Florida.

A shift in subject. In someone's earlier post, she talked of pouring scalding water on her feet but could not bring herself to tell anyone because even "children have pride." The subject in the surrounding posts was on pride as a good thing that this generation had and that subsequent generations do not have enough of. When I read about the boiling water, I thought, well, do I write a post that wonders if "shame" instead of pride was involved, or do I question this "pride" that kept someone from seeking immediate medical attention?

I don't yet have a feel for how these things will be talked about in this discussion. In my boomer generation, I think we're fairly accomplished at analyzing things to death, confessing anything and everything, taking an experience apart piece by piece (you can tell I see the pluses and minuses of this). Since I don't have the book yet (it's coming), I don't have a sense if it's a good thing or not to even intrude on this discussion. Is this what Tom Brokaw had in mind or are we changing the format? What good could come from my writing the comment, "What good is it if it kept you from going to the doctor? An infected burn could have threatened your life."

Actually, I did something similar when I was in first grade. Pulled a door over my big toenail and ripped it right off. It bled and I cried quietly until friends of my parents left our house and I could come out of my bedroom to tell what happened---and be taken to the emergency room. I remember being afraid that I'd be in trouble, yelled at. So, maybe the ridiculous fears of small children are universal, whatever generation.

I hope you understand what I'm asking about---process and format, even the question of including participants of subsequent generations.

Betty

Betty, welcome! Inclusion? You are exactly the kind of person Tom Brokaw had in mind when writing this book. Just wait! You'll see. Format? Process? Questions over portions of the book will be posted weekly. Your responses and memories are welcome. Nothing else formatted or expected except the normal courtesy and respect for opinions that differ from your own perceptions. But you know that...again, WELCOME! (even if you are just a "boomer")

Thank you for the nice welcome Joan. I am certainly looking forward to being part of this discussion group.

Robby, not sure if I can adequately put in to word why I feel that I tend to think and live more like a person from the generation before mine. Having lived in a somewhat meager beginning, I was raised with the waste not, want not theory and it carries on with me each and every day of my life. I tend to think from a family point of view that we need to have someone at home raising our children, either the mother or the father, does NOT matter, but have ONE of them their for the children that we bring in to this world. It appalls me that so few families sit down to a meal together these days. The day my child brought home a pamphlet called "Your Child's Rights" from our public school system, I KNEW we were in trouble. I am very troubled by the fact that our military is, in my opinion not quite as prepared as I would like for it to be. I would like to see ALL young people today spend a predetermined period of time doing "something" for our country to help insure what our previous generation did for us in helping secure a "free" country for us to live in. Sorry, I know that I have thrown out a LOT in a few sentences. I just know that a lot of my generation tend to not agree with my OLD ideas today.

Betty Gregory is concerned that naming the generation that began somewhere around 1920 as the "Greatest" excludes other generations which also had a "greatness" about them. She sees it as "boasting" and "setting itself apart." We need to remind ourselves, however, that it was Brokaw who gave the label. Whether or not those in that generation agree is still to be seen. She brings up the subjects of women's submission to men, the treatment of Afro-Americans by white juries and forced adoptions.

Denver Darling describes the generation of that age as practicing the "waste not - want not" theory and a significant number doing "something" for their country.

Does that ring a bell with the rest of you?

Robby

I came here too late to order a book but I have "the Greatest Generation" on audio tape so will have to get the next one from the Library. I think this will be a great discussion and look forward to it,....Lois

Lois:

I didn't know it was on audio tape. That should help. Its sequel, "The Greatest Generation Speaks," is probably not on tape.

Robby

betty gregory---Please stick around. The points you make are ones worth discussing. Brokaw is the one who used the term "greatest" in his title. I wonder if he considered using the less superlative, "great." It would be most interesting to ask him. But he is naming his father's generation, not his own. And I think the adjective has to do with a segment of that generation, those who had grown up strong enough to fight what Studs Terkel called the "good" war.

I thought what you said about overanalyzing and confessing most interesting also. I wonder if there isn't a happy medium somewhere between hiding a retarded child from public view and telling all the family's history to everyone you meet.

Please stay with us. I find what you write thought-provoking.

Maryal

Robby,

Found audio tape information on Amazon.com. There are also some good reviews of the book on this site.

The Greatest Generation Speaks : Letters and Reflections [UNABRIDGED] by Tom Brokaw, John Beach (Narrator), Roscoe C. Born (Narrator), pete Fernandez

List Price: $39.95 Our Price: $31.96 You Save: $7.99 (20%)

Availability: Usually ships within 24 hours.

Audio Cassette unabridged edition (November 1999) Random House (Audio); ISBN: 0375409254 ; Dimensions (in inches): 2.54 x 6.16 x 4.07 Other Editions: Hardcover, Audio Cassette (Abridged), Audio CD (Abridged), Large Print

Phyll (No, I am not an agent for Amazon.com.)

I think we all see greatness differently depending on our personal experiences.

I was raised during the depression by an aunt and uncle past middle age. The aunt had already raised 10 younger brothers and sisters (delaying marriage until later) when her mother died and now took her sister's two children on later in life.

To me they exemplified greatness in many ways.

I can recall sitting around the dining room table after supper and talking, while playing card games.

We would talk of many things but one was always how the family would deal with various problems, how the next milk check would be spent; who would get what- I would get five dollars toward a bike two months down the road when my turn came if I raised the rest myself . Somehow I did and the bike made it easier for me to travel my paper route, a job that also gave me insights into various sets of community values as well.

Always these decisions were shared- husband and wife- children all participating, and often the discussion tuned to what we might do for others less fortunate- we were penniless and I couldn't imagine any others less fortunate , but my aunt could.

We would harvest some of our crop of Navy beans and send them north to families on the iron range without a job or a garden and so on. And so we did and put a note in the sack and gained a new set of friends. and a sack of nuts gathered from the north woods in return.

I got so used to this sharing of husband and wife (well, actually my aunt usually ruled the day in her own way) that it shocked me one time when I went with my uncle on a deputy sheriff mission to a farm south of town.

The man of the house greeted us and had us come into the bare curtainless dining room.

He later called to his wife and ordered her to serve us some lard, bread and milk.

She came in bedraggled and forlorn, like one of the farm animals, served us and then left. without saying a word.

On the trip home my uncle told me that there were men who treated their wifes as farm animals, worked them to death and then got a new one, like replacing horses.

A trip to a rural cemetery in some areas tells the story somewhat if you look at a family plot- several wives to one husband-

Many children's graves- even into the 30's before childhood disease was conquered.

That trip opened a whole new world to me- one that made me appreciate the family I had and the values they represented.

And those values were not unique- The farmer across the road came over once to cut our hay when our haying machinery broke down- cut it and fixed the machine for us using the forge in his machine shed.

I recall pumping the bellows and watching the coals glow as he hammered out a repair.

And running barefoot that summer across his cinder road.

Phyll...They have the same unabridged audio at Barnes & Nobel...same price. The plus here is that SeniorNet has a B&N affiliation and if ordered through SN site, from B&N...SeniorNet gets 7% donation, for all orders. I usually check both and if I can get something cheaper at Amazon, I do...otherwise order from B&N. Most times the prices run about the same.

Eddie

Jim what an amazing family you experienced...I wonder if it takes adversity to bring out 'Greatness'?

I can't help but think that the world went through the depression but one nation had a leader that spoke about not fearing where as another, blamed it on a certain race of people. Interesting how the words of someone can effect emotions and mean so much more when the country feels desperate. The words of national leaders can actually activated the population to focus their energy on a fix to the problem.

When you think of it, this is even when China was changing and if I recall it was when spokesmen went from village to village encouraging the woman to un-bind their feet and not to bind the little girls feet any longer. I'm thinking that gave China an additional force to work themselves out of their agricultural depression and the by-product being it allowed woman not to be isolated to their homes and courtyards nor completly dependent on mostly the men to carry her and provide for her which ment ultimatly control her.

I wonder if having gone through the depression and because of the struggle as well as the words of calming encourement gave everyone the 'Can Do' attitude that was the strongest ingrediant of WWII days?

What was the British experience during depression - did it effect them or were their national interests abroad so great that the other nations kept the flow of goods and capitol? I do recall though that it was Churchill that had 'Words' that gave England the courage to stand tall during the war.

Jim:

You have painted a vivid word picture of poverty combined with love! And you introduce it by speaking of "greatness." As we continue to move along in this discussion, I'm certain that your portraiture will be strong in the back of our minds.

Barbara asks us to question whether the "can do" attitude, a strong ingredient of World War II, came originally from the adversity of the world-wide depression. Was the depression the catalyst that helped that particular generation to become "great?"

What do the rest of you think?

Robby

Today is the anniversary of the death of Franklin D. Roosevelt who died of a cerebral hemorrhage in 1945, one of the leaders of whom Barbara spoke.

Robby

What powerful words you have written here. Thank you Jim. My dad used to say that "a full house does not always correspond to a full life." In your case Jim, that is not true. Your story is rich with love and respect. a full house AND a full life you've described. Perhaps, as a younger senior, I will be able to share my perspective as a child raised by parents of that great depression.

FDR was only 63 when he died in Warm Springs, Georgia, fifty-five years ago. Did sixty-three seem older then than it does now?

Maryal

Eddie,

Sorry, I didn't mean to ignore Barnes and Noble. I have had an account with Amazon since long before I came on the SeniorNet and just naturally check them first. The question was that probably there was not an audio tape of The GG Speaks and I merely wanted to indicate that there is.

I still remember vividly the day FDR died. I was 15 and he had been president for as long as I could remember. Also, he had guided us through most of the war and even though my parents were staunch Kansas Republicans I remember the general feeling was "what shall we do now?" No one knew that much about Harry Truman at the time. Nor was he very popular during his presidency but (in retrospect) he made a fine president, after all.

Phyll

Jim, who comes from the "Greatest Generation," give a glowing tribute to his aunt and uncle who came from the previous generation.

My father was a disabled veteran from World War I (called the Great War). The result of World War I was approximately 10 million dead as compared to approximately one million in World War II. Of the 200,000 some odd U.S. wounded in WWI, my father was one. He came home with his right side partially paralyzed. Prior to the war he worked in Wall Street and had beautiful handwriting. After the war his condition worsened progressively to the point where everything had to be done with his left hand and he limped.

My mother was a hospital volunteer during that war, met my father who was a patient, and they ultimately married. I was an only child and the apple of my mother's eye. She gave me moral and emotional strength until she died when I was nine years old. My father continued on his own to raise me until I was 16 when I graduated high school.

My father's mother was born and raised in Naples, Italy. Her father was the Superintendent of Schools in Naples and my mother was a Marchesa. She lived in a large villa and had a governess who took care of her. Money was no problem. She sat on her balcony, eyed the policeman on his beat below, and the bottom line was that they eloped to France, got married, and came to New York City where she lived in Little Italy, as different as anything could be from her original habitat. She and my grandfather never escaped the resulting poverty but in the process they raised six fine sons, one of whom was my father.

We can see here, as well as from Jim's touching tribute to his aunt and uncle, that each generation strongly affects the following one. Which generation is "greater" than any other?

Robby

The Greatest Generation is a way better title than something like, say, The World War II Generation. Look at all the discussion it is causing in here. I think the title is memorable, in part, because it at first impresses and then leads to questions.

maryal

During the depression my family household cosisted of a mother and father and 14 children, living in a house near the railroad yards, coming into continual contact with the hoboes and vagrants who rode the rails, sometimes tasting their "mulligan stew" down by the tracks, or having them sitting at our table with us, sharing food and stories, without benefit of the government grants, foodstamps, and social benefits so easily available today. In spite of the fact that there was such a lack of jobs available in 1936 when I graduated from High School, I was able to get a job at the Grand Union Store for the marvelous salary of $7.00 for a 70 hour week, and was very grateful to the friend who got me the job. Money was very limited, and radio was just beginning to be received from transmitters broadcasting across the St. Lawrence River from Canada. My grandfather had purchased a radio, so we children found many excuses to visit grandpa, in order to listen to this marvelous invention. It was called an Atwater-Kent , and consisted of a long black box filled with tubes. It could be used either with head-phones or a huge horn speaker which sat on the top. During WW2 my 3rd Infantry Division was trapped on the Anzio Beachead for 5 months. As a diversion from the continual artillery and mortar shell fire we were receiving, I was able to build a crystal radio receiver. I used 2 flashlight batteries, a razor blade, headphones and a piece of copper wire. With this equipment we could hear Axis Sally and the enemy propaganda, music and broadcasts from Rome. After WW2 I was able to build my first tv set from a kit, and I was amazed to realize how far technology had advanced during the four years I was away at war. I look back on the years since my high school days with amazement. At that time there were no birth control pills, and no population explosion. This was before TV, pencilin, polio shots, antibiotics and frisbees, before frozen foods,nylon, dacron xerox radar,fluorescent lights, credit cards and ballpoint pens. Timesharing meant togetherness, not computers. Hardware meant hardware. Software was not even a word. Instant Coffee, McDonalds and Burger King were unheard of, and fast food was what we ate for Lent. This was before FM radio, tape recorders, electric typewriters, word processors, electronic music, digital clocks and disco dancing. This was before the 40 hour week and the minimum wage. We got married and then we lived together. Grass was mowed, coke was something you drank, and pot was something you cooked in. In the mid-thirties there were no vending machines, jet planes, helicopters and interstate highways. "Made in Japan" meant junk, and "making out" referred to how you did on an exam. In our time there were 5 and 10 cent stores where you could buy things for 5 or 10 cents. For just one dime you could ride the street car all day. For a nickle you could make a phone call, or buy a coke or ice creamcone or buy enough stamps to mail one letter and two post cards. During the depressionyou could buy a new Chevy coupe or a Ford Sedan for $659.00 but who could afford it? Nobody. Very sad, because gas was 11 cents a gallon. If anyone had asked us to explain CIA, NATO, UFO, NFL, JFK. or ERA we would have said, " that must be alphabet soup." In the years that have transpired since I graduated, we have come from the horse and buggy age with the outside privies, kerosene lanterns, and all of the limitations, to the rocket age, where we now explore the outer limits of the universe. This evolution is the result of man's brainpower, Godpower, and faith in God's Grace, combined with man's inventiveness and ingenuity. With God's help, nothing is impossible. Pat Bruyere

Robby.....My Dad was born in little Italy and then brought back to Italy, He lived in a small toen outside of Naples, when he was eighteen he was allowed to come back to America because he was a citzen of this contry.He again lived in little italy until he met my mom who ironically was born in italy but raised here in the U.S.

I was born during the depression, more toward the end in 1933 but things were still hard for my parents

i was a young girl during the second world war,bt i lved very close to the train station in my town and would go theret o say goodbye to the young fellows leaving for the service.

I loved the music of that era and still do, whenever i hear it memories come flowing back.

WELCOME, Patrick! You contributed much to the "Good" War discussion! Will look forward to hearing from you on the 16th when we start The Greatest Generation Speaks! 14 children! Amazing! You will have some stories to tell!

Aquarius, my favorite music too! What were your favorites?

ps, I've been informed that there are still copies of Greatest Generation Speaks available!

JOAN...I thought we were starting "The Greatest Generation" on the 16th. Are we also doing "TGG Speaks" at the same time? I'm already reading 4 books...you want me to add two more? I'd sort of planned on doing just one of Tom's at a time.

Help!

Love...Katie

Hello to all ,missed a lot been away since yesterday,seems to have grown very interesting . Betty Ididnt pour boiling water on my feet,it was an accident.the pride I mentioned wasnt realised, until Iwrote this down. our parents were both working,we were desperately poor.I wasnt ashamed of the accident,I was afraid to expose my socks ,they were in bad need of repair.Regarding getting help!1 no one around,It is well known kids, especially ones who havnt gone through poverty,can be cruel.I didnt want to be ridiculed.

we were a close family,we played simple things,as a family .every Sat night ,my Father would get his accordion out ,and we would sing to him playing,As regards the depression in England,we saw no sighn of goods and capitol,by we I mean such as us the poor,we went hungry,as I told ,my mother cried quite often.I remember on top of all that my father was laid up for months,with rhuematic fever.I was the eldest child,so I had to stay from school to take care of him.I was all of nine yrs old.Iwas seven when I scalded my foot.we had to do the best we could for each other.no putting people in homes. I really think it has made me stronger,there isnt much ,iam afraid to tackle.In a way it is a gift to know what you have made of your life I am content and thankful.I have sixteen grandchildren,and five great. scattered all over.It was a great generation,saw electricity put in the homes.we read books by candle light ,I always had to read.remember the zipper,coming into its own and more to come.gladys

Ok, all doubts aside, I'm smitten. Pat's, Robby's and Jim's stories, and others, are better than the 3 books I'm reading. It really is an amazing time to be alive, especially looking at today from a perspective of how fundamental the changes we've lived through. I may not agree with T Brokaw's word "greatest," but I know he's on to something, maybe in the realm of "unsung greatness" or the larger idea of looking to this generation to see what's possible when global and personal challenges seem insurmountable.

Note---I know someone was comparing combat casualties of WWI and WWII, but seeing those numbers without the 6 million Jews who died in WWII always strikes me as inaccurate.

Gladys---we were posting at the same time. I did understand that the boiling water was an accident. I'm sorry I didn't make that clear. Thank you for adding details to your story. Incidents like that sure stay with us, don't they? Not wanting to be ridiculed by other kids---boy, that hasn't changed, has it. Kids today feel that, too. I'm looking forward to hearing more stories from you.

Betty

Remember, books are published by corporations. Corporations have but one objective: to make money. They give books titles that they think will increase sales. Nothing else counts.

Jerri.Iknow,but it also gets us doing this which is wonderful. thank you Betty.gladys

WELCOME Patrick and thank you for sharing.

Heeeee's Glady's Good to see you here and sharing so much.

I am truly enjoining every ones posts. Thank all of you for your sharing. GETTING TO KNOW YOU.

Ginger

Jerryj Me thinks that the big Corporations will make a lot of money on this one.

I have read all the posts and I have come to the conclusion that this is going to be a very lively discussion, so many stories some so similiar to my own. It seems that no matter where you lived some things were the same. In our family we didn't discuss finances we just knew there wasn't any money. When my Dad's cousin came home on leave he brought presents from different places around the world and he also had some money to give my Dad for his stay but I remember my Dad telling him it was to much and he said he didn't need it as the Army took care of him, but we had many mouths to feed.

Our entertainment consisted of any thing the Church had to offer. My Mother playing the piano to which we did all the sing-a-longs, we played games but it was the togetherness that I remember the most.

This is going to be a great discussion

Betty, Gladys, Jim and Pat, I read your posts with great interest.

My God they were powerfull posts. The emotions and feelings you displayed when writing them came through so vividly. No writing can begin to match the writings of true emotions and feelings when those feeling are expressed as you folks expressed yours!!

These momories you just expresed,good or bad, will be cherished for ever by you.

Carollee, Bill I agree, this is going to be a great discussion because there is nothing quite like the true stories locked in our hearts and sharing them with folks who will understand. Tom B. has stated that his his intention in writing the Greatest Generation - that it would serve as a kind of catalyst...the second book, Greatest Generation Speaks was published after the first, a collection of stories that came in response to the first. We'll be using it as an adjunct to the first. KKKKATie, whether you have the first, second, neither, you will have plenty to spark those memories right here. You'll be just fine!

All of these posts are wonderful to read! I am enjoying everyone of them but especially Pat's. You brought back so many memories. I remember, even though I was very young, my parent's first car. I'm certain they didn't pay the enormous sum of $659.00 for it! It was a used--maybe by 2 or 3 owners--1928 Chevy that they bought in '34 or '35 but not even Mr. Rockefeller could have been as proud as we were when we rode in OUR car, my three brothers sandwiched in the back and me between Mother and Daddy in the front.

We didn't have any money but we sure weren't poor. We were wealthy in so many ways. Back then families did everything together---our after school, extra-curricular activities was pulling weeds in the garden or feeding the chickens or delivering the newspapers. But, what wonderful memories we were building.

So many of the "younger" generation are fond of telling us not to live in the past and to some extent they are right, but the foundations of the present were laid up brick by brick in those long ago years, I think.

Phyll

Did everyone catch Patrick's remarks that the "hoboes and vagrants were sitting at the table with us?" These "vagrants" were not good-for-nothings. They were part of the populace swept up into the gigantic unemployment which existed then. Catch the spirit of togetherness.

Aquarius, I still dance to the Big Band music when I can find a local band playing it. I love the fox trot, waltz, and swing! That music will never die. It was part of what kept our spirits up during those trying times.

Betty Gregory: I agree with you completely about the plight (not a very descriptive word) of the six million Jews. That is definitely what set off World War II from other wars.

Again the word "togetherness." Carollee says she remembers that the most.

Phyll also says that "we did everything together." And I assume everyone caught her remark that "we didn't have any money but we sure weren't poor." Do you suppose the majority of young folks these days would understand that remark?

Robby

How true. I remember how we got the fuel for the kitchen cook stove and the parlor heater.

We lived by a railroad track that served several area coal mines. My father would haul the used ties home two or three at a time in a wheel barrow. I "guided" one end of a two man saw and after the ties were sawed and split, I got to do the "hatchet" job to make the kindling.

There was a long steep grade and usually it took two steam engines to pull the loaded cars up the grade. My dad "foraged" the coal which fell off the loaded cars and in some cases helped a few big lumps to make the trip to the ground. The same wheelbarrow was put to use to haul the coal home.

How does one preach honesty to hungry and cold people? I guess it is by just allowing a little bit of "theft" in case of necessity.

I think she'd be proud too, Mal. Your mother instilled something in all of you that made it possible for you to rebuild your lives! What she gave you was priceless treasure...I'll bet you are as proud of her!

Raymond! Another familiar name from the "GOOD WAR discussion. I just know you will bring a lot to this discussion! Welcome! In answer to your question, no I don't think today's child would understand this concept. Do you think you even knew you were "poor" back then? We didn't. Look forward to your thoughts on T. Brokaw's Greatest Generation next week!

A number of us have posted individual stories but may I suggest that we remind ourselves that we were merely indicative of large numbers of people. I mentioned, for example, about my Italian grandparents coming over in 1890 and their hardships. However, approximately 7 million Italians arrived between 1880 and 1920. They were the builders. They were escaping economic hardships in Italy and their life here consisted of hard work. They were proud people who resisted public aid.

In the early 20th Century millions of Jewish people mainly from Poland and Russia arrived. They were escaping persecution and immediately began a life of various kinds of industry or journalism or the theatre.

I am from the generation that has been described as the Greatest Generation. What about my grandparents' generation and the generations of your ancestors? What did they contribute to America?

Robby

Jim, carolee, maryal, eddie, betty - you all make such great points about the appropriateness of terming those that came of age during the great depression and WWII "the greatest."

You all said exactly what I was concerned about.

But I must say that this discussion has offered me the opportunity to talk to my mom about what it was like to be a child of the depression and WWII. This dialogue with her will be very special for me.

What's interesting is how much what a lot of you say about the good old days is true of my own childhood in the 60s. We too sat around the table playing cards. My dad was an artist and had a gallery in San Francisco's North Beach and he had an open door policy. Friends dropped by whenever and there were always lots of people around the table talking, eating, laughing, carrying on. It was great. His friends all lived that way.

Things never really change all that much, I'm convinced.

Sarah,

One of the issues that we have had some agreement on in the study of Chaucer's Canterbury Tales is that "things" change but people don't.

Whether it is the "greatest generation" or the boomers or the Xers or the flappers or the generations of the Renaissance or the Medieval Age, we still are part of the human race. Some of us are good and others are evil; some of us are leaders, most of us are followers; some of us are great and the rest of us just try to live out our daily lives as best we can. I guess I have to leave it to a better judge than I as to which generation is the greatest.

Phyll (Ooops, I'd better get down before I fall off of this soapbox.)

Phyll

This Discussion Group thrives on soapboxes. Opinions are welcomed. Do I detect from some of you a concern about the term "greatest" as opposed to just "great?"

Robby

Robby you asked about the generations of your ancestors and what they contributed to America. Well my Greatgrandfather came over from Sweden and helped build the railroad, the family stayed in Sweden and he did return there many years later. I remember my Grandfather telling the story of when he came home that he didn't know who he was. My understanding was that he was there when they drove the golden spike. His stories of this vast land were what influenced my Grandfather to come here.

Carollee:

Being present when the Golden Spike was driven must have been a thrilling event. The building of a transcontinental railroad was a terrific event in itself not to mention the creation of the telegraph line which went along with it. How difficult it is to determine which generation in those pioneering days was great, never mind deciding now which was the "greatest."

Robby

Robby if we can ever decide which is the Greatest. There was so much to contribute building our great USA that I think it forever be a mystery as to who or whom is the greatest, without it all fitting together like a glove it could have never been. Sometimes I think about what is yet to come and know I will never see some of the great ideas and am somewhat sad at the prospect.

Carollee:

The future is moving in on us so rapidly that I am certain we will see many new "great ideas" before our time on earth comes to an end.

Robby

Robby I sure hope so and I am one of those who hate to miss anything.

Phyl,hello love nice to see you ,very well said ,it is things that change.My father came over here as a young man before he met my mother.I think things would have been very different,only for world 1, breaking out.he went home to enlist only to find out he had cateracts,and couldnt serve his country.I may not have been here ,he would have stayed.

I never knew what it was to be a car family,we never could afford one we walked miles,we had trains buses,trams but no money.My first or ours, my husband and I was in NM I was thrilled to death.I didnt learn to drive tho until I was sixty when it was evident I would have to do. I may be wrong,bit I think the walking was why I am able to get around so well.I was at my sons house which he just moved into,I tried to find the bathroom in the dark,opened a door stepped in !it was the basement stairs,landed on my back almost to the bottom.the main thing is I escaped with just a small bruise on my back.Nothing to do with the book I know but just makes me think ,that our poverty strenghend us bycicles were the thing,with little thin wheels and tyres.I cant ride one ,which surprises people,an English woman cant ride a bike.to add a bit of humor,one day my friends managed to get me up on one so big for me,I didnt fall off!they pushed me and I went,could keep on peddaling,but could,nt stop ,I rode round and round the streets,hoping some one would rescue me.I just fell off,never tried again. gladys

It has been discussed here that adversity builds character but now Gladys points out that poverty can have a lot to do with strengthening us physically. Interesting that what we so often don't want to do is the very thing that improves us!

Robby

I read in earlier post of the “hoboes” or “bums” as they were some times called. And it was pointed out quite correctly these men were not really “bums,” but were statistics of the great depression of the ‘30s. I remember how these unemployed men would go from house to house knocking on doors and begging for food or change to help their wives and kids.

Very few of them were turned away from our door without getting some change or a sandwich. Some of them would put the food in a paper bag and take it home, where ever that would be, so their kids could have some thing to eat. My folks felt so sorry for one man they brought him in and sat him down at the table and fed him a plateful of food. He hadn’t eaten in almost two days. He broke down and cried before he left our house.

But, you know, some of them, after receiving some thing at places they visited, would draw an arrow with a piece of chalk pointing to that house so that others would know. It was not to bad a time for those who had a job. But for those who didn’t have work it was just plain awful

While writing this, I am reminded of a song of that era that described things pretty well.

THE BUM SONG

Alleluia, I’m a bum
Alleluia, bum again
Alleluia, give us a hand out
to revive us again

Now I went to the house
and I knocked on the door
the lady said bum-bum
you’ve been here before.

Alleluia, I’m a bum.
Alleluia, bum again
Alleluia, give us a hand out
to revive us again.

It’s too bad it took a second World War to really bring us completely out of that depression. I often think what a shame we owe so much of our techknowlogical advances to that world conflagration.

Oh, Robby, isn't it always the hardest lessons are the ones longest remembered? And the toughest teacher was the one from whom you learned the most?

Phyll

Yes,Phyll, I agree with you "the hardest lessons are the longest remembered." I had a fairly good education--no Rhodes scholar, it's true. But the university that gave me the best education was "The School of Hard Knocks." This university didn't cost any money, but was paid for in so many other differnt ways!

Bill

Bill-----We used to sing "Hallelujah, I'm a Bum" at camp. When I was little, we lived in Chicago, near the railroad tracks. I don't know how often men came to the door asking for something to eat, but I know that my mother made a LOT of sandwiches. After she gave the man the food, she would explain that he had probably been riding the trains, looking for work.

Maryal

I had to read over 100 posts just to catch up! The individual stories are so interesting. They are written in the style of Studs Terkel and it more like a continuing conversation.

VIRGINIA HENDERSHOT: I see that you are orignially from International Falls. We have visited that part of the country but not for ten years. It will be interesting to look for changes.

LORRIE: Nice to hear from you again.

The stories are just amazing. Keep them coming. Carol

Shortly after this book came out, I saw Tom Brokaw being interviewed and he got very misty-eyed when he talked about his father. I don't quite remember the content of the conversation, but when anyone gets tears I do too. It's a connection we have as human beings, sadness and sorrow over our loss of loved ones.

Robby, I believe you said WWI was called the Great War? And Studs Terkel wrote his book on the Good War which was WWII (yes, I know, it was in quotes), and now the Greatest Generation. Aren't they all misusing a few adjectives here - time to come down to earth, perhaps? As others have said, there is good and bad in all people, all generations. I haven't started the book yet, but I am interested in the reasons for the "greatest."

I feel like an interloper here. Being born in 1940, an only child, not rich but all my needs were met. Dad worked in an oil refinery and always had a job (rejected by the army because of 1 lung collapsed). I've enjoyed your many touching stories.

But I have hope, I'd like to think the "greatest generation" is still to come with grandchildren. Look to the future for greatness. The past is gone, we can only hope that the generations to come will read about it and learn from it. Therein lies the "greatness" of the generation before me.

Ruth:

You are not an interloper. This forum is not just for those in the generation which began approximately 1920 but is for everyone who has thoughts about that generation whether it be the generation of your parents or your grandparents. Please share with us not only your own memories but those told you by your family members.

Robby

Ruth! Tom Brokaw is 60, he wrote these books! Would we call him an "interloper"? Naaah - you will see things as he does, experience what he did, be moved to write as he did??? I wonder just how many of this "greatest generation" has taken pen in hand????

I am continuing to enjoy all the nice thoughts here in this folder.

There are so many good point of view. One thing is for sure....we all seem to be anxious to get our books and start reading.

Please continue your stories everyone. This is great.

Hi Ruth You are as welcome as the sun in the morning here for sure you fit.

Carol Shovein I sure hope you enjoyed International Falls, Mn. I fished and eaten fresh WALEYE there on vaction while visiting relation there all my life. I was born there but we traveled alot and settled in Mich. in 1946 and I delivered the South bend Tribune on horse back in thoes days but we alway went back to the Falls at least once a year. Talk to me. Tell about your trips there etc. Did You Fish or what? Denver Darlin The red is for the beautiful Red Rocks in your state, Have lived there and enjoyed it so, I lived in Denver and EverGreen both special places. I to am waiting on the book with much atisapation. Robbie I have enjoyed you sharing your back ground with us. I apprieciated and enjoyed it. Ginger

Carollee this is a Gold color in rememberance of your Grandfather. How is your Gold envelope doing these days, Mine is flat. I sure enjoyed Your telling us of your Grandfather and the Gold Nail so to speak as to the railroad, This is great history and so special. It is my pleasure to know you.

Gladys I have enjoyed your caring and sharing with us. I am so glad that you came thru your fall as good as you did, Some thing from our up bringing makes us servivous (sp) and you do so well Love.

I am so looking forward to getting this book and sharing with all of you. Love Ginger

Denver Darling: I live in Ft. Collins - previously lived in Morrison just west of Denver. Howdy!

Virginia H: We also have a place in Grand Lake, CO. Our kids live in Littleton & Boulder. You delivered the paper on horseback! How neat! My e-mail isn't working just perfectly & when it does I will send notes to you & Denver Darling.

I read this book just before Christmas while recuperating from bacterial pnuemonia. During the war, my father was a very young civilian instructor on submarine diesel engines and he worked out of Boston (Quincy) going out on shakedown cruises with new submarines. Then, we moved to Seattle where he worked in the shipyard until beginning his own business - the business started right in our basement. I was taken to visit all the ships and had personal tours -my greatest fear was walking the gangplank from the pier to the ship. He was only twenty-one with a high school education and the oversaw the engine room on many new ships. He wanted to be a surgeon and his family (Swedes) were so absolutely poor that he just could not swing it. So, as everyone - life took a new direction and he never looked back. Carol

As some have suggested here, those of us who were part of that generation that endured WWII however we did it, on the home front or at the front, were rewarded in the end by an era of rapid econimic growth and prosperity.

It was a period of great social mobility and many of us used the GI bill to speed that mobility.

We can't forget those whose sacrifice went beyond the inconveniences of army living and restricted consumer consumption.

Practically one entire generation of young men was lost in Russia just as the "great" war had taken a generation of English young men.

We in the states fared better , as our casulaties were relatively light, but that is not much help as we remember the early high school reunions and the reading of the list of classmates who went off to war never to return .

Carol,

We used to live in Loveland and my husband went to Colorado State in Fort Collins. We've been away from CO for 45 years and have lived all over the US (thanks to the Air Force and IBM) but I still miss Colorado and rate it way up hight on my favorite place to live list.

Denver Darling, Glad to see you here.

Jim, As with most of us here, my life has been so touched by war. My father fought in the thick of the War To End ALL Wars (WWI), my three older brothers were in WWII and my husband was in the Air Force during Korea--The Forgotten War. My sons would have gone into service during the Vietnam War if it had not ended when it did. My older son had already taken his induction physical.

And the women, not only those who joined the Services, but those who took the place of men in factories and businesses, and the rest who waited in fear of what might come in a telegram, day and night. Sometimes it is the hardest job to just wait!

I wonder how many generations before us, and after us, have had so much of their lives shaped by the evil of war?

Phyll

Hello ,gingee nice to see you .Hello Carol S,nice to meet you .Denver darling so glad to see you are enjoying it.Phyl hi love ,I was one who was in a munitions factory during the war,when we came her in 67,my son was 19,and we had been her six months when he was drafted for Vietnam. Robbie its been a pleasure to discuss this with you. Jim I remember you well always nice to see you.gladys

Virgina I was born and raised in Colorado but now live in Sun City West Arizona, but I am PROUD to see your "red" in honor of the red rocks anyway!! I will ALWAYS be a Colorado Girl!

Carol, nice to meet you and I thank you for your nice message.

Phyll good to meet someone that has lived in Colorado as well.

Special "hello" to Gladys. Hope you are having a good day today.

Love reading all the posts in here.....so many of you seem to have such interesting stories to share.

Can't wait for my book to arrive.......see you all later.

Darling D, we can't wait for you book to arrive either!!! Will those of you who ordered books please let us know here in a post as soon as yours is delivered? Now, don't feel that you have to read the whole thing for Sunday. We're going to let both books drive the discussion, not the other way around. Starting Sunday, we'll be discussing only the introductory pages of each book. Those pages are packed! Cannot wait to hear from you!

Hope you are all safe from the market dive today. Somehow I don't feel it is in the ethos of the "greatest generation" to speculate very much - but I may be wrong? If I am, I hope you can hold on till the market recovers...

Talk to you on Sunday!

Love,
Joan

Joan, how are you going to talk to us on Sunday. You're supposed to be at the Folger's.

I'm doing the Greatest Generation now. Withholding comments and judgment for a while. Need to read more and check out my response to it.

HAHAHA! JerryJ! Where shall we meet? Did you get my note, taped to the middle of the table in the docent room? Are you doing the treasure hunt?

I'll be in and out of here on Sunday...and Robby will be here all day, if I know him! Don't know where that man gets his energy!

Judge the book? Let's just let the memories flow! The book is merely the "catalyst!" (Where do those quotes go, prof? Before or after the exclamation point?) What often happens here - the discussions are better than the book!

In the early ‘30s, we had an “ice box” to keep the food from spoiling, as did most of our neighbors. We didn’t get a real refrigerator (we refererd to them as “fridgedairs) until the late ‘30s. I know most of you remember the ice box. they were built like a refrigerator, but held ice in the top compartment that tried to serve as a “freezer” compartment but it didn’t freeze any thing nor was it expected to. They didn’t run on electricity--just ice. The bottom compartment kept the foods that we wanted to keep from spoiling. Nobody bought meat too far in advance. That is if they could afford meat.

Now the “ice-man” cometh. We would put the ice card in the window before he arrived to let the ice-man know how many pounds of ice was wanted--25,50,75 or a hundred pounds of ice. He would pull up in his ice-truck, read the ice-card and break off the approximate weight, of course he would weigh it on his scale . He would then grab the ice-block with his tongs, put the block on a leather pad he had slung over his shoulder to keep the shoulder from freezing--I wonder how much arthritis he had--and then bring the ice to the house and put it in the ice compartment of the ice-box.

In the winter months the ice would last a reasonable length of time. But in summertime, well you know what they say about a snow-ball in H. A water tray was kept under the ice-compartment at all times and it was emptied several times a day, unless you didn’t mind a wet floor frequently. We kept our ice-box in the dinning-room. The kitchen would get way to hot when the oven was on causing the ice to melt more prematurely than usual. These ice-boxes were a poor substitute for the modern day freezers and refrigerators. No wonder there was so much bacteria around. And no anti-biotics either.

In addition to these ice-boxes, a lot of people kept window-boxes. These looked very much like the room air-conditioners that protude out from the windows, however on the inside of the window was a door that could be closed to keep the “cold” in the box. This was kept in the kitchen window. These were all right in winter, but forget them in summertime. They were used just to keep things cold for a very short period of time, maybe for an hour or two.

Then in the late 1930s we bought our first “real” electric refrigerator On the top of it was a big round thing that looked like a big lair cake. I suppose it was the compreser or motor or both. How nice not to have to bother with big blocks of ice and all the work that they entailed. Now we could really keep food from spoiling. I wonder if the ice-man's shoulder thawed out.

Hey, Maryal, can you think of any more versus to the "Bum Song." I'm sure there more.

Bill---A friend of mine who grew up in Brooklyn explained to me about window boxes. I had never heard of them. I'm also a little young to remember real ice boxes, but my parents always called the refrigerator the "ice box." We did used to have our milk delivered in glass bottles by a milkman with a horse. My mother used to pour off most of the cream and save it for tea and coffee.

Maryal

I don't remember ice boxes, but my Mother talked about it, but she never said anything about a window box that is a new one for me. I remember the milk that came in bottles with plenty of cream on the top, that was the best milk.

I almost forgot to tell you about the time we went into the city probably about 1943 maybe 44, anyway we did have a car don't know what year or make. It of course was a long trip no freeways or such and our roads in the country were stone all two lanes. well we spent the afternoon at my Uncles and then started home it was dark and late about a 2 hr drive I think and we got a flat tire. There was no spare because there wasn't rubber for them so we limped home on the rim. It sure made a long trip longer and the noise was just terrible I can still hear it. The next morning my Dad had to take the bus to work and it was a long time before we had a tire, we sure did a lot of walking then.

Sometimes we used the cream to make ice cream. The ice man also let the kids have slivers of ice to suck on.That was a big treat.

But I must tell you about one of the volunteer projects I am involved in at our Central Library. Other volunteers had cut out all the newspaper items about the city boys and girls who were in the service and pasted them on index cards with name, date, and newspaper name. Many of these cards had an item or two on the back. Now the cards are going to be micro-filmed and the info on the back of the cards needs to be put on a card of its own. That is what I am doing. Photo copy, cut, paste, identify. Every once in awhile I stop to read an item and there are so many wonderful stories there. Sometimes it is very sad to read about all the young men killed in action. I try not to look at those but to hurry on with my work. Have found several friends and neighbors already. Not my family as husband and I are from another state. One story that I read last week was about a letter one young man wrote home where he commented on the low income they had ($21.00 a month) and the strike that was going on where the people wanted $100.00 a week for the work they did making war supplies. Low pay and the chance to get killed for $21.00. Doesn't sound fair to me.

Shirley your job sounds so interesting and reading all the little tidbits gives you a very good idea of how they managed or didn't manage to make a living, and I agree the ratio seems a little one sided to me.

Bill, I well remember the ice man. They always said I looked just like him!

Joan, I have to judge. I can't just wallow in nostalgia and sentimentality.

Bill,

In summer the kids would hear the ice truck coming and we would hide until the iceman carried the ice into the house then we would swarm up onto the back of the truck and grab slivers of ice. I can still feel the cold on my bare feet--every kid went barefoot in the summer--it saved on shoes. It was my older brother's job to empty the water pan from under the ice box but sometimes he would forget. Thank goodness, our ice box sat out on the back porch so at least the water didn't do any damage. Our first real electric refrigerator was a Frigidare. My mother was so happy when it was delivered she cried.

What were some of the games you all played in those days? Our house had a big yard so all the neighborhood kids gathered there. Of course, we played Hide and Seek, Blind Man's Bluff, and lots of others. Does anyone here know what Shinny was? Long summer evenings...weren't they great!

Oh come on, Jerryj, wallow a little! We don't do it often and it has been fun hearing all the stories.

Phyll

Red light, blue light, Hope to see the ghost tonight.Then there was Annie annie over and you would throw a can over the garage. There was one where you chose sides and then called for one to come over. They had to crash thru the line in order to go back to their side. And of course, roast potatoes in a bonfire in the alley.

Gosh Yes, Bill H...that type of electric refrigerator you spoke of was called a Monitor Top. I remember when we first got ours, I thought we had struck it rich! Mama would get so mad at me, because I would keep opening the door and marveling at it!

Phyll...we used to raid the ice trucks to, for slivers of ice. Oh, that was the most fun. What wonderful memories you have brought back.

Eddie

Now we had a real fridge, but I do remember my gramma having an ice box(and a Hoosier Cabinet). She was widowed for many years and cleaned a lumber yard office nites for a living, I understand she also cleaned houses when she was younger. My grandpa died when mother was a senior in high school. She gave up her dreams of becoming a teacher, got a scholarship to a business college and became a secretary at a car dealership within walking distance of home.The business college was run by Joanne Worley's mother!!

I do remember driving across the state line to an A&P in South Chicago and mom and dad going in and shopping. In later years I found out that a neighbor was a butcher there and had good deals for them. I don't remember rationing. I was told about it later and by then my mom's memory had glossed over alot of the details. I do remember being in a picture show and all of a sudden everyone went out in the streets and were celebrating--VJ Day. later, ruth

Some of your memories of struggling to meet basic needs in childhood in the '20's, '30's, '40's, is not that different from memories of my childhood in the '50's. The country may have been experiencing a post-war economic boom, but my parents were not. My parents married in their late teens, had me the first year (then 4 more children over 13 years)and were very poor for most of the first two decades. One memory from a tiny mining town in Colorado when I was in first grade was how we made it through a winter with no refrigerator (your stories prompted this memory). Since we lived at a high elevation, Mother left food and milk just outside the kitchen window, some of it on the window ledge. Later, after we moved back to Texas, where all of Mother's family lived, almost all of my clothes were sewn by my mother and grandmother. That was before wearing a certain brand name became so important to kids, so I never felt "poor" in that way. She was an excellent seamstress. In fact, my favorite Christmas, a time when presents were usually scarce, was when I was 6 or 7 and Mother made by hand 10 or so items of clothing for my doll. Each dress or coat was meticulously made, as if sewn for a real person---gathered waists, puffed sleeves, button holes, snaps, shaped collars, sashes, added lace, a piece of real fur (sent from a scrap my grandmother found) for the collar of a red velvet coat. And I know she sewed each piece from remnants of material she had on hand or got from others. I have a thousand memories of my mother at the sewing machine. During half of the conversations I've had with her over all these years, she's had to talk out of the side of her mouth that didn't have pins.

We would step on the middle of a can it would surrond our shoes and we went clippty clopply for some reason and thought it fun.

Speaking of home made clothes, my Mother would buy flour by the sack and each sack was made of a pretty fabric, she would make sure she had X amount of each fabric and make pj's for us out of this.

Oh, Betty,

How "rich" you were! Every stitch was placed with your mother's love. That means so much more than all the toys that money can buy.

carollee,

My mother made so many things from flour sacks, too, because they were inexpensive. The irony is that now I go to Williams-Sonoma and pay outrageous prices for tea-towels made out of flour sack material because they are the best for drying dishes.

Phyll

What a wonderful discussion. I am remembering many things I had forgotten as I read what others post. Ginger--My friends and I played that same game with stepping on the cans and wearing them around and clippety-clopping. We were (or at least I was) pretending to be horses.

My mother lengthened almost everything I wore in the dress/skirt department. I am tall and in those days there was a defined hem line that always had something to do with the knee. Nothing store-bought was ever long enough for me. My mother also sewed a lot for my sister. By the time I came along, she avoided all but necessary sewing and mending. But I could see that she was gifted.

Maryal

Ginger and Maryal,

We flattened tin cans, too, and then played a kind of field hockey with the biggest thickest stick we could handle, chose up sides and tried to hit the can over the "line" to score points. Of course, most of the time the sticks would whack you across the shins instead of hitting the can so that is why the game was called "Shinny". Mother would fuss because my legs were always black and blue through the summer. I had 3 older brothers and all their friends that I was determined to keep up with! Mother tried to get me to play with dolls and tea sets but I was too much of a tomboy to put up with THAT stuff.

Phyll

Phyll----Heh. I could never figure out what to DO with Dolls and Teacups. Even when I was very young, the idea of drinking imaginary tea out of cups that were so small I could hardly see them was a silly pursuit. I hated dolls (my grandmother who hoped to turn me into a girl gave me one every Christmas), but I loved stuffed animals. Some of them I loved so much I wore the fur off. I had your legs all summer plus scabby knees from falling on the sidewalk.

We played Red Rover, Red Rover, Red Light/Green Light, Prisoners' Base and Mother May I ---usually in an alley. Boys and girls played together. We also played hopskotch and drew obscure works of art on the sidewalks. It was a big treat to find a real chalk rock.

Maryal

Hello .Phyl ,Maryal,gingee,Betty,and all am enjoying your memories.Iam very dissapointed Iwill be away all weekend and miss to morrows disscusion, I know it will be great .gladys .

My goodness, all the memories being stirred up here. I can remember doing so many of these things. The ice box, where more than once the pan would overflow because someone didn't get to it fast enough. My mother also made many of our clothes and I would wear someone elses hand me downs. Having been born in 1930 and being the oldest of 7 children, I can remember quite a bit and yet I seem to have forgoten alot.My mother became a widow at 35 when my father was killed in the second world war. He was in the naval reserves for a number of years and consequently was one of the first ones to be called. His ship was torpedoed by the Japanese in 1942. He also was 35years of age. My mother did a wonderful job of raising all of us by herself and I'm sure we were quite a hand full. She never remarried and never wanted to. I've rambled on enough foe now.

Betty makes the point that her life in the 50s was similar to the lives you of the great depression/WWII generation lived. I made the same point as to my childhood in the 60s.

So - what makes the generation captured in Brokaw's book "the greatest"?

I was out of town for just one day and come back to find over two dozen very fascinating postings. Just goes to prove what I have said on more than one occasion -- that the participants in a Discussion Group are the engine. The Discussion Leader just touches the steering wheel lightly from time to time.

Memories - memories - memories on how you got along during "hard" times. Bill H reminding us of the period before electric refrigerators came into existence. Maryal telling us about window boxes. My grandparents had one of those which obviously were only practical during the winter. Phyll, Shirley, and others stirring up our memories about childhood games which no longer seem to be in existence and Phyll reminding us that going barefoot was not just "for fun" but was often a necessity to save shoes. Ruth's mother cleaning offices for a living. Shorty70 wearing "hand-me-downs." Do you suppose the present generation knows what that term means?

Jerryj: Dealing with nostalgia is one thing; "wallowing" in it is another. What I hear here are the voices of strong (very strong) people who share with each other how they coped with those difficult times. Or as Carol's father said: "take a new direction and never look back." But we are talking about what has been described as the "Greatest Generation." Betty tells us about hardships she had in the 50s which, she says, were not that different from those in the 20s, 30s, and 40s. This, of course, leads us back to the original question: "What is it about a generation which makes it not just great, but "The Greatest?"

Robby

Sarah T:

You and I posted at about the same time and it seems came up with the same relevant question. What do the rest of you see as the answer?

Robby

Robby----I agree with what you said about "Wallowing in nostalgia." For me, there's a huge difference between seeing the past through rose-colored glasses and telling young people how much better it was THEN and honestly enjoying remembering earlier years.

So much that folks have written here has reminded me of my own childhood. I enjoy remembering those alley games in Chicago on hot summer nights, and the skinned knees don't hurt anymore.

I never wallow. Well, maybe now and again in a hot tub.

Maryal

I think the "Greatest" generation, is the one each particular one of us was part of. This is the one that molded us and brings forth the "best" (or most vivid) memories. Each of us is affected by what we have experienced (or survived)...and that imparts a certain pride and reverence of "our generation". Hopefully, we can...be open to change and progress and be a major contributor to future generations. This is our legacy to leave to our descendents and their "Greatest" generation.

Discussions such as this one will do so much to advance us into the future. Gives us an opportunity to voice our knowledge and wisdom and enables us to be more accepting and hopeful. Communication is the key to the future.

Eddie

Prior to World War I my father worked in a brokerage house on Wall St. He came back disabled and was not able to continue writing those figures. Two of his brothers continued to work at brokerage houses and a third brother worked for years on the stock quotation page of the Associated Press. Much of my earlier life was therefore spent in hearing long conversations about bull and bear markets. I was steeped in it although I understood little of it.

That being so, I remember very well (I was nine years old at the time) the news of the stock market crash in 1929. I did not understand what was going on but I do remember the newspapers telling of men jumping out of windows. Am I the only one here who remembers the 1929 crash?

Robby

Robby and Sarah T----maybe the answer is, "nothing." One area of doubt about that are my thoughts on sacrifice. I'm thinking of the home front now and the incredible effort, planning, brains it took to transform almost all our manufacturing plants to produce planes, ships, ammunition. Quite a few WWII specialists say that this almost inhuman-scale increased production was the difference in winning or losing the war. So, the "war effort" included almost everyone. Not before that time (maybe?), and not since that time, have so many been tested. Thinking of every facet of WWII, maybe we learned the very best we're capable of, and the very worst.

Has anybody ever seen a kerosene refrigerator? I mean a refrigerator powered by burning kerosene. Sounds orxymoronic, but I've actually seen one (only one) and years ago when I knew more about such things, thought I had figured out how it cooled by using heat. Didn't the gas companies also make refrigerators?

Jerry my Granny had a gas refrigerator in England.

Jerryj

Yes, there was a gas powered refrigerator which ironically was named "Electrolux." It was popular in the late 30s. I was at that time working for the advertising agency that handled the Electrolux account.

I am still wondering if I am the only person here old enough to remember the 1929 stock market crash.

Robby

I was born in 1930 - I well remember the "icebox". I also remember my grandmother's big house was freezing except for the kitchen. Remember when milk delivered had frozen cream on the top in the winter? We always lived in or near "Ma & Pa", my grandparents. They had 10 living children and my mother was the oldest. I never remember going without anything because someone was always working and the family shared everything. On the other hand, my husband remembers going to bed hungry many times, his mother and father were divorced and he and his brother lived with their mother in pretty poor circumstances.

I remember playing either Red Light or Red Rover, Red Rover -the one where you tried to get past a group of kids with their hands linked, I remember making a mad dash to go thru them - as a joke, they unlinked their hands and let me through and I ran smack into a brick wall - I still have a bump on my forehead to prove it!

Eileen

Aye, Eileen, I can relate to cold houses. My grandmother had a large house with high ceilings in the rooms and a hall that also robed the heat from the rooms. Even though we had burned twenty-three tons of coal one winter the upstairs rooms were freezing.

My grandmother had to take medicine when she woke in the mornings so she kept a glass of water on her night stand. You guessed it!! On some very cold winter mornings there would be a skim of ice on the water in the glass.

But,you know, cold high-ceilin downstairs rooms kept the Christmas tree needels from getting to dry.

When I was a very small boy, my father used to make whistles for me out of sections of a hickory sapling. When I got a little older, probably 7 or 8, I started making them myself. Here's how:

In the spring (only) when the sap is rising, select a knotless 3"-5" (approximately) section of a young hickory limb. Bevel one end for blowing into. Cut a V notch a couple inches (or less) below the top of the beveled end. Carefully remove the bark from the beveled end to about an inch beyond the V notch. Whittle level the top of the bare part of the limb to form an air channel. Replace the bark and blow through the beveled end.

The main virtue of these whistles was loudness, which is exactly what I wanted. As the bark dried, however, they ceased to function properly and I kept having to make new ones until the bark would no longer slip off without splitting.

I also made (year round) what I called a "flip." Nowadays they are called "pea shooters," but I didn't use peas or beans for ammunition, but small rocks as round and smooth as I could find. Actually, marbles made the best ammunition, but they were too expensive.

These flips were made from forked branches to which were attached rubber bands, cut from automobile innertubes, and a pocket(usually a shoe tongue) attached to the two bands. The rock was placed in the pocket, the rubber bands pulled back released. The projective would travel quite a distance. I did target shooting with them, but rarely hit my target. Still, it was fun and I usually had one of these devices ready for use. I soon discovered that wild cherry trees provided the most symetrical crotches for making a flip.

Slingshots were out of my class. I tried one once and only managed to hit myself in the head. After that I stayed with flips as much safer.

Sorry, Robby, I was only a few days old when the market crashed in 1929 so I don't remember it. But I sure as heck remember the one yesterday!!!!

Jerryj, How about rubber guns? A scrap piece of wood cut in roughly the shape of a gun--the barrel could be as short or as long as you had enough wood for--a clip style clothespin nailed on the back and rubber inner tubes cut in strips and stretched from the clothespin down over the end of the barrel til it was tight---tight---tight!

Golly, they could really sting if you got caught in the line of fire.

Phyll

Phyll:

Regarding the stock market "crash" of yesterday that you recall, it was announced that as a result Bill Gates lost 11.1 billion dollars. Rumor is that he is considering declaring bankruptcy.

Robby

Robby I was eleven at the time of the crash. going back thru time is a treat sometimes,I wouldnt call it wallowing in it.I love where I am now ,but cant resist ,looking back on a programme that calls for it .I guess it is ,in my case ,feel so lucky to have acheived what I have .I wouldnt have missed any of it for the world.gladys

Gladys:Having a "rich" life is one composed of both "happy" and "unhappy," isn't it? Having a really full life!!

Robby

I agree Robby taking the good with the bad. .I believe in the saying ,``count your age by friends not yrs~`

Our refrigerator during the summer months was the well. We lowered milk and other perishables down the well in a bucket. My father kept his home brew cold in this manner, only he used a gunny sack instead of a bucket.

Our chickens were encouraged to lay by placing china eggs in the nests. We had two chicken yards and one of these had the meanest white rooster around. He would attack anyone coming in to collect eggs. He soon was in the stew pot and replaced with a gentleman rooster with less testosterone.

Only a few more hours until the "real" discussion starts. Are we all ready? Sorry Gladys that you will be away tomorrow and won't get to read the posts until later. We will look forward to your input when ever you get to give it to us!!

I am quite sure I am one of the younger participants here, but I remember ice boxes and the ice men driving down the street delivering the ice. Also had a gas refridgerator in the late sixties while living in Great Britian! NOW I am not quite certain why I felt the need to tell you all this....but I did!

See you all tomorrow........Jenny

I just got my books. They were on order from the library and finally came in today, just in time! I'm amazed at all the discussion even before we get into the book. I think we talked about a lot of these memories in the Remember When discussion, but it's always fun to reminisce and share memories. I am curious about why Tom Brokaw chose the word "Greatest" to describe our generation (is that it?). Was it a literary device to make a catchy book title, or does he really mean this generation was the "greatest"? I'm not sure I would agree, but it's going to be very interesting to find out.

To answer Joan's Question #1 above, I am definitely of that generation. I was born in 1920. To quote Brokaw, I "came of age in the Great Depression." I "learned to accept a future that played out one day at a time." I have many, many, many memories and, as they begin to flood back, each memory triggers another memory.

You certainly have many memories as well. Let them pour out of you. Please share with all of us the memories and other thoughts that are in your mind. Whether you consider yourself of that generation or not, your memories are valuable. We are listening!!

Robby

Off to Folger for the day, JerryJ! Really looking forward to meeting you!

"Coming of age during the Depression - what does "coming of age" mean to you all? ~ "coming of age during WWII"...again, same question?

Look forward to coming home this evening and hearing your comments! I'll report on the meeting between JerryJ and myself. It's always so exciting meeting someone you've met here - this is especially fun for me because Jerry and I met here and didn't realize that we've both worked in the same building for three years!

Have a super Sunday, everyone!

Bill H,

I don't know if your query about "the best of times and the worst of times" was ever answered but it is from "A Tale of Two Cities", I saw your post in the beginning of this folder but didn't come back in until lately. I have the GG but haven't started it yet. I'll probably continue to lurk and enjoy the comments.

Eileen

Ooops a daisy. In an ealier post I said we used 23-tons of coal trying to keep the house warm. Make that 13-tons. I hit the 2-key instead of the 1-key.

Bill

Hi Eileen, yes some one answered my query regarding the quote from the "Tale Of Two Cities." But I am glad your reading my posts.

Bill

Robby: I believe that Tom Brokaw included his mother and father in "The Greatest Generation" and as I am a member of this generation I would like to contribute my thoughts. I was born on March 17, 1920. During the depression my family household consisted of a mother and father and 14 children, living in a house near the railroad yards, coming into continual contact with the hoboes and vagrants who rode the rails, sometimes tasting their "mulligan stew" down by the tracks, or having them sitting at our table with us, sharing food and stories, without benefit of the government grants, foodstamps, and social benefits so easily available today. In spite of the fact that there was such a lack of jobs available in 1936 when I graduated from High School, I was able to get a job at the Grand Union Store for the marvelous salary of $7.00 for a 70 hour week, and was very grateful to the friend who got me the job. Money was very limited, and radio was just beginning to be received from transmitters broadcasting across the St. Lawrence River from Canada. My grandfather had purchased a radio, so we children found many excuses to visit grandpa, in order to listen to this marvelous invention. It was called an Atwater-Kent , and consisted of a long black box filled with tubes. It could be used either with head-phones or a huge horn speaker which sat on the top. During WW2 my 3rd Infantry Division was trapped on the Anzio Beachead for 5 months. As a diversion from the continual artillery and mortar shell fire we were receiving, I was able to build a crystal radio receiver. I used 2 flashlight batteries, a razor blade, headphones and a piece of copper wire. With this equipment we could hear Axis Sally and the enemy propaganda, music and broadcasts from Rome. After WW2 I was able to build my first tv set from a kit, and I was amazed to realize how far technology had advanced during the four years I was away at war. I look back on the years since my high school days with amazement. At that time there were no birth control pills, and no population explosion. This was before TV, pencilin, polio shots, antibiotics and frisbees, before frozen foods,nylon, dacron xerox radar,fluorescent lights, credit cards and ballpoint pens. Timesharing meant togetherness, not computers. Hardware meant hardware. Software was not even a word. Instant Coffee, McDonalds and Burger King were unheard of, and fast food was what we ate for Lent. This was before FM radio, tape recorders, electric typewriters, word processors, electronic music, digital clocks and disco dancing. This was before the 40 hour week and the minimum wage. We got married and then we lived together. Grass was mowed, coke was something you drank, and pot was something you cooked in. In the mid-thirties there were no vending machines, jet planes, helicopters and interstate highways. "Made in Japan" meant junk, and "making out" referred to how you did on an exam. In our time there were 5 and 10 cent stores where you could buy things for 5 or 10 cents. For just one dime you could ride the street car all day. For a nickle you could make a phone call, or buy a coke or ice creamcone or buy enough stamps to mail one letter and two post cards. During the depressionyou could buy a new Chevy coupe or a Ford Sedan for $659.00 but who could afford it? Nobody. Very sad, because gas was 11 cents a gallon. If anyone had asked us to explain CIA, NATO, UFO, NFL, JFK. or ERA we would have said, " that must be alphabet soup." In the years that have transpired since I graduated, we have come from the horse and buggy age with the outside privies, kerosene lanterns, and all of the limitations, to the rocket age, where we now explore the outer limits of the universe. This evolution is the result of man's brainpower, Godpower, and faith in God's Grace, combined with man's inventiveness and ingenuity. With God's help, nothing is impossible. Pat Bruyere

I deliberately arrived at the Folger a little late this morning and deliberately left a bit earlier than usual so that I wouldn't have to leave Tommy alone for so long. I don't remember if I mentioned it, but Tommy he had a seizure Saturday morning and the vet says it is epilepsy. So I'm staying as close to him as I can in case he has another. True, I can't do anything about the attacks, but maybe I can offer a little comfort and reassurance until they pass.

It was a good party and sorry I missed the cake. But, maybe next year I'll be able to do better. The crowd was larger than I feared. This is two years in a row when demonstrations have interferred with our show. One more and maybe that'll be all.

Will continue reading Brokow, but don't expect me to get misty eyed and emotional. It's not my style. More anon.

JerryJ! You didn't even mention our momentous meeting at the treasure hunt table! I know you were distressed about Tommy, though. Isn't it amazing how attached we get to pets! I hope for the best for him, Jerry. What is his prognosis? How old is he now? Did you call him your "pup"?

I think it's safe to define the "greatest" using TomB's parameters of those who "came of age" during the Depression to those who came of age during WWII - those born in the first quarter of the 20th century? Perhaps we'll add a few years to include those who "came of age" in 1945??? So if my math is correct we are talking about those born in the first quarter of the century - up to and including 1927? What do you think? Does that sound about right? What about those born in 1928-30? They would have been adolescents during the war? Do you think Tom B. would include them?

So far we have two to add to our list of Tom's greatest generation, Robby and Patrick. Shall we put their names on a special chart? I'd like to do that. What do you think? Given the years 1900 - 1927, can you think of anyone born in this period you'd like to include in the discussion - someone not on SN? Wouldn't that be special? Each one talk to one? Many of us have parents who fall into this category who might like to have the chance to "SPEAK"!!!

Really tired tonight! You'd understand if you ever celebrated Shakespeare's b'day at the Folger! Talk to you tomorrow!

My husband's father, Clyde, was born in 1905. He will be 95 on June 10th. Though a very "close mouthed", mountain man...he goes on for hours with me, when we get together. He has told me so many stories of his hard times during the depression and his feelings during WW2. He has a fierce pride and is a very private man. He had never opened up to his family and my husband was overwhelmed that he had related things to me, that my husband...nor anyone of his siblings...had heard. For some reason, he found a kindred spirit in me, (probably because I was the only one that was not afraid of him and was "impudent" enough to ask about his life and struggles). He delights in telling me of when he was sent to Cuba, in the mid 1940's, to set up a cotton mill and show them how to run it. He gave me his passport book and papers he had scribbled notes on and his slide rule. Sitting and listening to him, I can almost see him in this setting. It was one of the happiest, proudest times of his life. I found by listening to his stories of being raised by his grandfather, (after being orphaned at 9 months of age,) and the hard times he realized as a copper miner while a teen and struggles he went through raising his family...I realize where his demeanor of being an uncaring "hard ass", comes from! Why he has never made his children aware of it I don't know! When I asked him if he had ever tried to explain his feelings to them...he answered with, "...never had time for belly achin'...too busy try'n ta put food on tha table." then he ended this brief answer to me with, "...'sides, ain't never 'splained my akshuns 'ta nobody! 'taint nobody's business, 'cept mine!" That's really sad to me, that a man who has worked that hard all of his life, and his kids have NEVER been close to him and evidentally (with the exception of my husband), will do nothing for him now...not even visit! It breaks my heart!

Eddie:

Perhaps, through you, your 95-year-old father-in-law can share with us some of his thoughts about his generation and his attitude toward defining a particular generation as the "greatest generation." You might not want him to know that his thoughts are going to us here. If you don't find that unethical, it would most certainly give us here a broader perspective.

Robby

JoanP----Don't forget GLADYS. I think she belongs in the generation also.

Eddie---You were not afraid, and your father-in-law senses that. I also had a close relationship with my father-in-law. We were much alike in a number of ways. Good for you for getting him to open up. It no doubt does him good to have someone to share with.

Maryal

Knowing you, Eddie, it is no surprise that your father in law can open up to you! We need to follow Eddie's example and tune in to such stories that time threatens to silence.

Maryal, that's right, Gladys will be another name for that chart that I'll put up later today. Am looking forward to hearing from more of you this week!

Joan, my introductory statement was intended to serve the "glad to meet you, etc." purpose.

Tommy is doing well, although I noticed him biting the air early last evening about 5:00. The vet says these are actually epileptic attacks, so I gave him his medicine and he seemed all right through the night. In answer to your question, he is a little over 7 years old, so definitely not a pup.

Am I misunderstanding? I thought the term "greatest generation" referred to ALL the people in his time frame. Nobody can be excluded.

I think we ought to stop bickering about who, what, and when the "greatest generation" was. It only trivializes the conversation. After all, the book had to be called something and this is as good (or as bad) as anything. Remember, as individuals, as societies, or as nations, almost always we rise to the demands made on us. If needs are great (large) we rise higher, if needs are less, we do less. I am reminded of my experience teaching my dog Smokey to jump. If I placed the bar 2 feet off the ground, he would leap over it clearing the bar by 1 inch. If I dropped the bar to 1 foot, he would still clear the bar by 1 inch. He put forth exactly as much effort as required to do the job, no more, no less. So it is with us, I suspect. We do what we have to. There is no virtue in meeting higher demands, just as there is no vice in meeting lower demands. The important thing is to do what we need to keep ourselves, our society, our nation, the world functioning effectively.

Well, I'm not that young, but my mother is. Neither of us make the 1927 cutoff. Her 2 older brothers do. I have emailed her several pages of our posts, knowing that her years of geneological research have produced hundreds of stories of distant and close family members who do fit this time frame. Maybe as we go along, she'll want to relate stories directly about her mother (still living but quite ill) and father and grandparents. Her brother, my Uncle Max, did fight in WWII and witnessed some of its worst horrors. A truck piled high with naked corpses, if I remember correctly.

I'm smiling as I reread the above....because of the word "directly." I used it to mean my mother would type in the stories herself. I can hear my grandmother using that word, though, with a completely different meaning. She used it to mean....eventually....as in "I'll finish snapping those beans directly."

Wonder if there are other evolutions of language that we can think of as we go along. Not just the brand new words of today that Pat lists for us but words that have changed in meaning or use, i.e., the word "gay," or words or phrases from that generation that have disappeared or have lost value. Patriotic. Serve my country. My Aunt June, from that generation, used to say, "Well, I swan!" (as in, I'll be darn.)

Betty:

Wonderful that you are sharing our thoughts here with your mother!! This will help to expand the discussion and hopefully, either "directly" or through you, she will add some relevant ideas.

Robby

Jerryj----very nicely put, about the human ability to meet life's demands. Even though I see the risk of using any word that draws distinction between or divides groups arbitrarily (and the word "greatest" does that, naturally excluding others) I find my disagreement to be mild. I'm OK with selecting roughly the first quarter of the century. Listing the names seems unnecessary. Those of us not officially in "that" generation are still as personally involved as we relate or read stories about people in our parents generation. In my mother's case, she probably feels she is one of that generation because her brothers are. It's Tom Brokaw's book, his distinction. It seems easy enough to accept his premise for our discussion purposes, although we should feel free to give him grief over it when we compose our thoughts and questions for him.

Betty, where I grew up in Georgia and Alabama, we used the term "directly" just as you did. To us also, the word "very" meant something akin to "moderate," as in "I'm feeling very well for me." This mean I feel "pretty" good. Interesting how we use the word "pretty" too.

JerryJ, I am happy that there is medication that helps your little Tommy through the rough times. I agree that memories of every generation are going to provide "lessons" for future generations - Completely agree. Tom Brokaw however has chosen to spotlight a particular generation - which he describes as those "who came of age during the Depression" to those who "came of age during World War II." In the introduction he describes the "life-changing" event that provoked this interest. The accounts in these two books come from those of this particular generation.

I suppose it is arbitrary to set a "cut off" date as Betty mentions her mother not "making" it, but her uncles do. From all Betty has said her mother "qualifies" - Let's raise the bar from 1927 - to ??? I think it was Robby who mentioned that children "came of age" earlier in those days. So perhaps those who were in their teens by the end of WWII would also fit Tom B's category. Betty, would you tell us the year your mom was born? I'd like to include her name on this chart in the making....or no chart, just my own list if you all agree that you don't want to see the list of SNetters in the spotlight?

I would love to hear more of the "idioms" of the time? Would you include the area of the country (world?) these expressions come from as Jerry did? Sometimes it's the idioms that bring back the old memories?

By the way, what was the life-changing event that prompted Tom's interest in this generation?

Mettle, character, courage, dignity. Just this minute I heard these words by an author being interviewed about her book on older women of distinction who lived and worked in a time when there was not much support for women in the work world.

Mother was born in 1930. I was born 17 years later.

Joan asks "what was the life-changing event?" This may sound minor but I would make it plural - events. I believe that it was more than the war that made my generation what it is.

Robby

Pat Bruyere, I enjoyed your post very much - although born in 1930, everything you said holds true for me too, only thing that I can think of that you left out are the 10 cent movies (:

Eddie, after having met you in Chicago, it's not surprising to me that you had a good relationship with your father-in-law, that's very sad about his children not keeping in touch with him.

Bill H., I'm going to try to keep up to date on this folder. I have a Studs Terkel book which has excerpts from all his books and the depression stories are very interesting.

Eileen

This doesn't have anything to do with the book (but, then again, maybe it does). On NPR this morning the reporter was interviewing the young people who were demonstrating in Washington. D.C. One of the arrested fellows was complaining: "The police put us in buses and gave us all bologna sandwiches. Most of us are vegetarians!" Speaking as just one member of the older generation (who happens also to be a vegetarian), my heart bleeds for him.

Welcome to the world of hardship!!

Robby

Betty---My grandmother (from Maryland) used "directly" in exactly the same way yours did. I always understood her to mean "soon" and not "eventually." A small difference, I admit. I love language, the more the better. Let's all think of some expressions older family members used to use.

Maryal

I was born in 1921 (that was a good year!) On D Day I had just been tranferred from the 69th Div. to the 3137th Signal Motor Messenger Co. awaiting orders to go to Europe.

What made this a "great generation" was the fact that we got to see something other than our home town. We got to see the rest of the world and an education in hard knocks that would not have been available to many without their service experience. The best was yet to come as the GI Bill gave all an opportunity to a college education. I felt cheated (not too much though) as I had worked my way through most of a four year degree by the time I was drafte.

We learned the value of teamwork and cooperation in the service. We went in as "boys" and came out as men imbued with the "can do" attitude. The world changed radically because of us and with us.

Raymond:

Others have not mentioned here about that generation gaining by getting to "see the world." Would you expand on that a little, please?

Robby

Incidentally, the pronunciation of "directly" was something like "d'reckly," two syllables.

May ease up on everything for a bit. Got bad news from the vet on Tommy's blood work. He's not clear what the problem(s) is yet and will repeat the tests tomorrow. Right now my mind's not clear on other things.

JerryJ...I am so sorry your beloved pet is suffering these problems. They do become part of your family and very soul, don't they? My thoughts will be with you and I pray for a better prognosis for your Tommy. Please, keep us posted...(if not here, just click on my name above and send me an e-mail of his progress and how you are doing.)

Eddie

JerryJ----Yes, it was d'rectly---that was it.

If the "cut-off" point is 1927 then I guess that leaves me out of the discussion? I was born in 1929 and I maintain that though I was only a few years old, the way in which my family was affected and dealt with the "lean years" directly impacted me. I may not have known or been able to understand the economic and sociologic explanations for those years but I sure understood that times were hard.

As for "coming of age"--I really don't understand that phrase. People, through circumstances surrounding them, "come of age" at differing ages. Hard times make us mature a whole lot faster. Many 18-year-old boys in the 1940's might not have been "mature" but Uncle Sam certainly thought they were old enough to lay their lives on the line.

Unfortunately, my father and mother are gone and I can't talk to them about those times. In fact, my father, who was a true war hero in WWI with several medals, rarely ever talked about the war years. What few stories he told us generally were humorous and we treasured the few times he spoke of those years. He never mentioned the terrible times.

Phyll

good morning Robbie Joan and my fellow posters. I have only just been able to get on,hope Iam not to far behind. thanks Maryal for remembering me. I was born 1918 near the end of ww1,it seems Iwas born the day of the battle of Mons'where the Angel of Mons apeared,Legend has it she saved the day for us ,or the war! needless to say ,I have no one to help me out re the past,I am the only one left.I am sure can find plenty of things to remember.

Gladys

Maryal.you wouldnt believe some of our old sayings very true . but have to repeat them with tongue in cheek. when I was a little girl,we didnt have alarm clocks.we were awakened by a man who,s job it was to no [offence no rudeness intended]knock us up.he had a big long pole with wire loosely attached,he would rap them on your window,and you would shout allright !!Ihave got my self in trouble a few times,asking people if they wanted to be knocked up.I hope no one is offended because it is the truth,so many years ago,what a long way we have come. my Father used to say `Up the dancers `when it was time for bed.It meant up the stairs.did any one have bows and hoops?it was an iron loop ,and you hit it over and over with a stick .you could run miles with it before you knew it.gladys

I guess that I would be included in that generation, as I was born Sept. 17, 1927. I certainly have memories about the depression and WWII, and the recovery period. There was so much judgment here about what this book was about, I hesitate to post further! I have enjoyed reading "The Greatest Generation," and Tom Brokaw's experiences and the telling of them.

Hootie

Hootie, do you think that if Tom Brokaw had titled his book, A Great Generation that we would be having the discussion that started here last week. Frankly, I was surprised, because TB tells us that he intended this book as a "tribute" to this generation and we are talking about our own SNETTERS or their parents. Do you think it was the superlative, the "greatest" that got to some people?

I wonder if we could overcome the title~ at least until we've finished the books, reserve the "judgement" part till then ~ and simply look at the legacy of this particular GREAT generation. TB writes something in these introductory page about being "challenged" about this very thing and adds, "I believe I have the facts on my side." We'll see. Certainly his choice of title will be on our list of questions! I hope you stay with us, Hootie. Your memories are precious and valuable to all of us, right gang?

Hi Gladys! No, of course, you are not far behind...we just started yesterday ~ We are just beginning to look at Tom Brokaw's book and figure out who he is including in this "greatest generation." You, m'lady, qualify! We're taking an informal poll here about putting up a chart of names of our SNetters of this generation~ in the heading here. How do you feel about that? We could have a link to a list if you'd like. You know, I think for the members of the greatest, you have found a nice comfortable place to share you memories! Especially you who find yourselves alone. You are NOT alone! You're with us!!

You too,Phyll, and all of you who lived through these times. I agree, defining TB's "coming of age" is arbitrary - that people mature at different ages, depending on the times. I think we'll agree to include those with memories of being directly impacted by the hard times of the Depression...and that would certainly include YOU! So, we've raised the ropes to '30. Anyone for '31? Another good question for Tom Brokaw, perhaps?

JerryJ, this is tough for you. All of us who have had a pet understands just what you are going through. We are thinking about you.

So, have you checked out the QUESTION du JOUR up in the heading? Any memories of what you felt on that day, Ray? What kind of information did you have about what was going on over there? I remember my family in an uproar because my uncle was over there. Another very sad memory, which I may be able to bring myself to share with you in the next few days. Where were you? Do you have any memories of that day?

Hootie nice to see you ,you have the same birthday as my husband Hope you are feeling good love.gladys

I havnt recieved my book yet.

Hey, Gladys, neither have I.

Bill H

From 1940 through 1945, if you lived in Pittsburgh, PA, you didn’t have to look very far to realize there was a war going on. The steel mills, machine shops, forging plants; brick yard (fire brick for the ovens) and finishing mills all along the Monongahela River were alive with activity. These mills kept the coal miners of Western Pennsylvania in the mines most of the day, mining coal for the ovens of these plants and the rail roads. These mills worked ‘round the clock and the men and “Rosie The Riveters” that worked in these plants for the three-eight hour tours worked many more hours a day than just eight hours.so that America could build ships, tanks, planes and guns that were so desperately needed by our fighting men--a home front and a battle front. And I’m quite sure there was a wage and price freeze during these war years. The Mon and Ohio Rivers were alive with river barge traffic taking all kinds of war material to other cities and rail heads in Ohio and beyond so this finished material could be shipped all over the country were ever they were needed. Pittsburgh, had three large rail roads at the time, but they just couldn’t handle all of the freight, although the Pennsylvania railroad was used mainly for passenger service and military people. That’s why the river barges played such an important role in the war effort.

At nights, before I entered the service, I could look off in the distance and see the sky blazing fire-red over J & L (Jones & Laughlyn) steel mill). The sky was aglow from their blast furnaces and when they would pour the molten steel into vats, LOOK OUT. I never seen the aurora borealis, but I think this more than made up for them.

Bill Where were you on D-Day? Any memories of that day in particular?

Hi Bill.I worked in a munitions factory during the war,right in Manchester.if any one understands machinery,I was on a no ten ward!! yes Biiig I am just Five ft.I had about threee duck boards under me I was scared to death of the thing,but had to do it . I remember once Iwas turning some brass on the machine ,and we had vip visitors coming round to watch us.the components were very hot when you were removing them.one of the Ladies showed an interest in veiwing one .I was so flustered,I handed it to her!!!it was red hot,she dropped it pretty quickly.Gladys

Gladys dear, I cannot imagine forgetting you. Welcome back. What a funny story about handing the VIP lady the very hot component. I suppose at the time it wasn't funny, but I am enjoying it today. My book hasn't gotten here either--I just checked outside the front door to make sure. I do hope I'm not getting too far behind on the reading.

Bill---That red sky must have been something to behold. Shifts were certainly long in those days. Not sure I could have done it. I guess if I had had to do it, I would have.

Maryal

GLADYS! - I'm still laughing over the business of "getting knocked up!" That is just so funny - I've never heard of anything like that before. Who paid this guy to hit people's windows to wake them up? Or was he just a good-hearted neighbor? I love your stories so keep writing! Hahahaa - still laughing!

My husband, Dick, was born in 1925 and enlisted in the Navy in WWII; however, he doesn't have any interest in talking about it at all. It is too far in the past, best forgotten he says. Other men feel the opposite, as does my brother-in-law, Johnnie, who was in the infantry and every Veterans' Day brings all his pictures, medals (Purple Heart for one) to their Senior Center, where all veterans in that community share their stories with school children who come to visit.

Joan, perhaps many of us reject the word "Greatest" because we are of that generation or near enough to it to know that we just did what was necessary at the time and do not feel it was anything out of the ordinary. Who wants to call themselves the "greatest?" No one.

Brokaw states that the time of WWII was "equal to the revolution of 1776 and the perils of the Civil War." I hardly think so. How about the rest of you?

I have a little story about Hap Arnold, mentioned in the Introduction, which I'll relate later. Dinnertime!

Fun to read all the stories here so keep posting all of you!

I thought you were JUst STarting yesterday! Got in here and had to read more than 200 posts just to catch up!

I bought the first book when it first came out and just browsed through it. Looking forward to reading along with you now.

Robby, I thought the Russians alone had 20 million die in WWII. Am I off my head? Your 1 million really surprised me.

I think Brokaw meant the book as a thank you to this particular generation (who were, indeed, some of them great) for saving the world from fascism, and as a tribute to his parents. As many have pointed out here, every generation has had its greatness and its very bad moments. I do not feel we should challenge the title.

Watching The American Presidents recently on public tv (they did all 41 over 4 nights), I could not help but realize yet again that our very greatest President was George Washington by a long measurement. And one of you chose the generation of the deeds of 1776 as perhaps our greatest. I must agree with that sentiment, if indeed a "greatest" is to be chosen.

As for the wonderful spirit during WWII, I wish we could get that back without having a war.

I was born in 1929, but the boys who went to war were my beaus and pen pals and one wound up as my husband. I had many schoolmates who died in that war.

Not all of the heros of WWII were of TGG. My grandmother had 4 stars in her window. She learned to recognize airplanes and climbed the fire department tower twice a week to scan the skies for the enemy. She made black out curtains for the whole house. She saved fat and conserved on coal. She ran a volunteer cannery set up by the government to help women turn their victory gardens into canned goods. She went to the Red Cross once a week to deliver the items she knitted for our service men and to collect more yarn to knit even more for them. She was our age! She and HER generation put an awful lot into that victory. Our local air raid warden was her age.

Were we? All I know that the l940's were the liveliest years of my life. I was in the air warden service, service canteens & wrapped stained but clean bandages with my mother & aunts. I went to work and college and wrote letters to servicemen and eventually maried a veteran in l946. Those war years were real. It ended a terrible depression but it gave us all a common goal. Were we great? I don't know. I do know we cared and we shared and when the war ended, we were a little less alive. Does that make sense to anyone?

There was a lot of posts to catch up on but got it done. I haven't received the book yet either but I order just last week. so will try to keep up by reading all the post. It is going to be difficult trying to pick out the greatest in a way that might be in the eye of the beholder, you know without WW1, and all the others before WW2, where would we be, possibly still under the Queen. I have been trying to remember D-Day but so far nothing comes to me. But I do remember some of my friends Father's building bomb shelters in their back yards. We did not. In school we had drills and had to get under our desks looking back that would not have saved us from a thing. I remember the Army going down the highways in there trucks and everyone pulling over to the side to let them pass and we cheered and waved like made. We had a lot of planes over head was always aware of them don't remember if I was afraid but there was a feeling that I can't get a handle on right now.

MaryPage--Your grandmother is a hero in my eyes.

Ella ,no it was a real job,very important one also/ it was a part time one, before he went to work.We all paid him so much a week.I think I am the only one old enough from England to remember it .I was a bit afraid of telling that but glad you enjoyed it . Maryal,thanks love.I like to have humor hanging round,could get very tense other wise.gladys

Mary Page I agree wish we had the spirit of ww11 without the war as you say.it brought out the best in all of us,in the shelters singing at the top of our voices,we were close in every way.during the time of the Buzz bombs,the Germans last ditch effort.We got married,and went for our honey moon to Southhampton England .every one was worried about us ,they were directed at the south of England.We never saw one ,but they came over to the north where I lived,killed four of our neighbors.gladys

We have already answered Joan's #1 question in the heading of this discussion, so I will answer question #2 as I have the book in my lap at the moment. Let me quote exactly what Brokaw says:

In the spring of 1984 I went to the northwest of France, to Normandy, to prepare an NBC documentary on the fortieth anniversary of D-Day............... I was well prepared with research on the planning for the invasion.......What I was not prepared for was how this experience would affect me emotionally.

And Brokaw continues with stories of the men who had been there. So very moving and I would have been weeping the entire time listening to these men, I doubt they would have appreciated me there!

Brokaw mentions the book by Stephen Ambrose entitled "D-Day June 6, 1944." Has anyone read it? I've seen documentaries on the battle and what was the famous movie called that portrayed that landing? Not the recent one with Tom Hanks - which was good - but one prior.

EllaG----Was it "The Longest Day"?

I thought the greatest President was Harry S. Truman. I'll explain why I feel this way. I was being transferd to an army camp in Claifornia. We were forming up an Armored infantry division for the purpose of the invasion one of the main Japanese Islands. This was in the early spring of '45. I remember reading on the barracks buletin board that it was hoped to have round the clock bombing of Japan by 1948. I thought, well I'll be long gone by then. Enough all ready!! Is there to be no end.

Then Saint Harry S. Truman ordered the A-bomb droped. It saved my life and an untold number of other lives. Not to mention the casulties. I think anybody elese in our shoes would feel the same way.

Joan, D-day took place a few months before I was inducted into the Army. I remember it quite well because most of my buddies and I knew we would be entering the armed forces very soon.

The world so many American boys knew revolved around a large family, usuallly living within 20 miles of each other. I was more or less a "man of the world" since I attended college 90 hitchhiking miles from my home.

One can read all the geography books and never really know a country and its people like a trip through the countryside. Even the US opened up as we traveled the rails from camp to camp and went through our training exercises in the country side.

Many of the GIs, myself included, hailed the coming of D Day as we wanted to get the war over with and get back home. This was particularly true of the married soldiers, some of whom had never seen there new borns. So far it had been a lot of "hurry up and wait." Now the hurry was to get the job finished.

My father was rather nonchalant about my service time as he had been in the army during WWI, however, my mother was almost a basket case and continually wrote me all the tragic stories she had heard and kept asking if I had been there. Guess that was no different from most mothers.

I'm just back after being gone most of the day and see the discussion is going hot and heavy. Lots and lots of memories.

MaryPage: I'll check further on the loss of lives in the Soviet Union.

Bill H: Your terminology of "Saint Harry Truman" is intriguing. It saved your life. How do others here feel about that?

Robby

JOAN and ROBBIE...add me to your "oldest" list, since I was born in 1924. I don't remember the stock market crash, since I was only 5 years old, but I remember my childhood during the depression, vividly. I can't say we were poverty stricken, as my father had a job as a columnist for the Toledo Blade. His pay was cut in half, if that means anything. My sister and I had piano lessons, for $1.00 each; we had a car...used; and once in awhile Mrs. Cooper came to help mother clean house. We called her our cleaning lady, and I think she was hired so the few dollars mother paid her would help her feed her own large family. We lived in the upper half of a duplex, and the gas furnace was converted to coal for some reason, and it was before the war, so I'm not sure why the landlord did that. I do remember that it meant trekking down two flights of stairs, tho, to take care of maintaining the heat. Another thing I remember...our small refrigerator was an Electrolux! It was "cooled" by gas, which I never understood...and still don't...and was built into the kitchen wall. We also had an incinerator, and the worst odor in the world was when it got clogged with burning paper, which smoldered. Yuck! But what a great way to get rid of trash! The garbage cans at our house held nothing but garbage, tin cans, and the occasional glass jar.

When the war started, my father tried to enlist. All the services told him he was too old...he was 42 in 1942, so he ended up joining the American Red Cross and was attached to the 31st Infantry as a Field Director. He went to Europe shortly after the invasion and received a Bronze Star for his actions during the Battle of St.Lo. He and a dentist carried many wounded off the battleground to the nearest aid station. All the time he was in Europe he wrote articles for The Blade about his experiences. The only other member of our family, on either side, to serve in the military was my cousin, Jerry, and Daddy ran into him shortly after he arrived in France. From then on, he was called "Uncle Lou" by the troops, and they were always glad to see him, with his cigarettes and candy bars and stationery and other things the guys needed. It was not quite the same as fighting in the war, but he was right there, close to the front most of the time, and did see action.

As kids we played all the games already talked about here, but by the time the war came along I was too old for them. I was a senior in high school, visiting friends at the University of Michigan when we heard about Pearl Harbor. Such pandemonium in that dorm! The guys were flying down the stairs, some in their underwear, heading for the phones to call home, yelling for someone to open the recruiting offices...they wanted to enlist, and RIGHT NOW! It was a sober ride back home to Toledo that day. But, some in my class were able to graduate from high school before donning a uniform, and we girls pretty much went on with our lives, going to college and getting part time jobs. One summer I bagged candy bars for D Rations for the troops...and gained 10 lbs. by eating the scraps of that bitter chocolate as they came down the conveyor belt. Another summer, and on Saturdays during the school year, I worked at the bank in the ration stamps department. We counted the stamps, or in the case of large grocery stores, or the one or two supermarkets that had recently opened, the stamps were weighed. A very good accounting was kept, and if there were any cheaters, they were prosecuted.

This has gone on longer than I intended. Sorry! I received "The Greatest" for Christmas in '98 and "The GG Speaks" this last Christmas. I, too, have just skimmed them so far. Now I'll get busy and read with questions in mind. Did anyone read the little article in the New Yorker that Tom Brokaw wrote about his dad last summer, around Father's Day? About the hammer? It was a real winner! Sure wish I had saved it.

Love...Katie

Finally am able to come here, my ISP was down for some reason or other. I also have not recieved the book I ordered but as I told Joan I have the audio tape of the first book.

Have enjoyed reading all of your memories which make some of mine come flooding back. Mary Page said it so well about her gram, she was truly one of the greatest.

I think my parents were too, my mother went to work in a war plant because the firm my Dad worked in let him go when he turned 50 in the mid thirties. After Pearl Harbor day he got a job in another war plant as a laborer.

My two bothers went into the Army and Air Corps and I wrote many a letter, remember v-Mail?

On D-Day I was home cleaning the house (I became the housekeeper when Mom went to work). My sister called to tell me about it but did not have a clue where Normandy was. The firehouse down the street blew the siren for about 5 minutes so everyone ran out into the street.

Enough for this time, am really enjoying this, only wish my husband had lived so that I could read all the stories to him. He did listen to "The Greatest Generation" and enjoyed it very much.....Lois

Gladys, Carollee, Katie, Lois and all. I am so enjoying your posts. Thank you all.

My mother put all of her wage into war bonds she worked at the Studabaker corp and I guess my Dad paid the bills.

Gladys, Carollee, Katie and Lois it is so good to see you here. Is this the best of times to be able to share our menories. WOW I am sure enjoying all and reliving my childhood with all of you. Thanks so much. I thought that I was alone for some reason.

Ginger

Lois and partyday Caring and Sharing you bet it made sense to me keep coming in as I enjoy you both.

Ginger

Katie:

You say that you went on "longer than intended." I hope that this "lapse" continues!! You have such rich memories. You may say that what your father did was "not the same as fighting" but he was at the front lines and, believe me, that's the same. I remember very well the Red Cross representatives. They were our life line to our homes which were constantly in our thoughts.

Lois:

You bring up the subject of V-mail. How many here remember those treasured little bits of letters?

Robby

I still have an original, unused piece of V-mail stationery.

I was an Army Brat. Daddy told me we would go to war with the Japanese one day way back in 1933 while teaching me to read by having me read the headlines in The Baltimore Sun.

The headline that day was: JAPANESE SINK PANAY

Trench coats had Just come out in 1940, and we girl Brats used to sew patches from all of the units all over our trench coats. Not just the front or arms, but All Over. Wish I had saved mine!

I went to live with my grandmother in January 1941 because Daddy was going on maneuvers and would be all over this country. My step mother wanted to follow him around, but they wanted me to stay in one school. In May 1942 I went to live with an aunt and went to boarding school. Most of the children of career officers have like war-time stories of being passed around between relatives. My father had decided my grandmother was too old and I would be less of a problem for his sister. Well, she had languages and wound up going to work for the O.S.S. Does anyone remember the O.S.S.? Or know what it is today? Hush! Hush! So I went back to my grandmother for school holidays after that.

MaryPage:

Yes, the OSS is the ancestor of the current CIA. Tell us some more about her language ability and her work in the OSS. I'm sure not everything there is still classified. This is part of the war effort which most people don't know about.

Robby

Robby, she never talked about it. Never, ever.

She was a society matron who had never worked a day in her life at a paid job. She had done a lot of volunteer work, however, and that is real work, just not as demanding.

She was asked to join up by the man who started the O.S.S. At a cocktail party, I believe, or a dinner or something like that.

She had been raised with French as a second language and had gone to school in Belguim. I know that she had other languages as well, but I do not recall what they were. She was a world traveler, both before and after WWII. She moved to Manhattan while working for the O.S.S. I do not have a clue why; she never said.

We did not even learn it was the O.S.S. until AFTER the war! Typical.

My other grandmother's first cousin, raised in like circumstances, went to work for them also. She never left D.C. She had 14 languages. She herself told me this before she died. She had 7 fluent and 7 passing. She was one of the people who helped make a written language of Serbo-Croatian.

Ah, memories! There were A LOT of valiant women in my family. A wonderful heritage. Any one of them would have died for their country. I have a great aunt who was a spy. Honestly. She was given honors and medals after the war.

MaryPage:

Don't stop here!!! Your family has much to be proud of and especially as you label them - the "valiant women." And I won't ask you what the spy in your family did. I know better!

Please keep talking!! As important as the boys on the front lines were, we must also learn about the activities of less publicized participants - especially the women.

Robby

Hey Robbie, where have you been? Its been a long time! Seems like we are all back to discussing the war years again BUT what about the years that led up to that time. What about the 20's and the law against serving liquor and the wonderful dresses and the dancing? What about the Dust Bowl? the California grape pickers? The moves to California to work for the defense plants? The Vets' Tent City in D.C. to get WWI benefits? the crash of the stock market? What I think Brokaw means to bring out is that the people who experienced these episodes were very strong and because of their attitudes about these other happenings in their lives they were able to get through the Depression and the WWII.

I have two other books about these times and will be commenting on them along with the two GG's. And,by the way, I haven't received my GG Speaks yet? Any idea where it might be?

I am a later GG baby, having been born in 1935. I grew up in a boarding house you might say as my parents to keep on top of their bills, rented rooms throughout the was and afterwards, to hockey players in Indianapolis. So my brother and I were spoiled by these "big brothers" for 10 years. It was quite a lot of fun for us but mucho work for my mother and dad. I will be back with a question for Tom Brokaw as soon as my company leaves on Thursday. See ya, Ann

I must be cynical. I have had his book and from time to time pick it up and try to read more. As he states, we do not like to discuss the war. There was a war and lets forget the details. Discuss getting there, the home front, depression, whatever. Put the war in the history books. And maybe thats the way I should recognize the book.

Re qu #2, His trip to Normandy, the awsomeness, the "why" most of those remaining do not want to discuss it. (I was not part of Normandy), And a desire to write a book.

#3, Amen to Saint Harry Truman. I was in the Aleutians.

To a better subject of many good memories, the depression era. Maybe of many rough times but a tremendous learning experience. Earn a dollar for the boss before you expect a dime in your paycheck. If you got a dollar, it was only 90 cents, put 10 cents away for a rainy day. The unions roughing you up because you were working faster than the seniors, (with no sweat)but the unions had their place. 15 cents an hour when you could find someone to furnish work. Find milk bottles for the 5 cent deposit. Three and you could go to the movies. Make sure you wound up in life owning the roof over your head. And the sun came up this morning, somewhere, its another gloomy day here in Northern VA, but must shake off the depression of yesterday and get on with it. Think positive.

Robby asked me to stick my nose in and say a word or two and all I can say is WOW these memories, this discussion is just beyond anybody's expectations already and imagine what it will be when you get your books!

I'm reading every word, but in answer to "Where were you on D Day?" I was barely 1 year old, so you can see I don't exactly fit IN the Greatest Generation but I do like reading about it, makes me feel proud.

Eddie Marie, what a story! You won't believe this but my husband did the same thing for his mother, and ferreted out the grave of his Civil War grandmother (still looking for Grandfather's grave). I think a lot of that goes on and is very meaningful to the survivors.

Thanks to you all for your wonderful contributions here!

Ginny

There is a lot in both of these books relating to the Depression years, camron! Tom Brokaw has recognized the influence of those hard times on the ability of this generation to face the war years, which after all were only five years, (although 5 important years), in the life of this generation! There will be much discussion of these years as we move on with the individual stories in the coming weeks and months. Please accept our BIG WELCOME!

Ann!, where are those books??? How about the rest of you? Will you please post when they arrive? When they do, don't feel you have to read the whole thing to get started...just the introductory pages...not much, but lots of ideas about what moved Tom Brokaw to write about this particular generation. You will see that he intends to bring up much more than the war years, although, as Ella has just mentioned, it was the 40th anniversary of D-Day that brought him to Normandy and he listened to the vets begin to remember the events of that time... He repeats what many of you have stated, the memories came slowly, reluctantly at first. They weren't used to talking about those years.

Tom Brokaw was born in 1940, so his memories of the war are about as good as yours, Ginny. He has stated that the lessons, the values to be learned from the memories of this generation are important ones for coming generations and that's why he hopes his books will stimulate dialog among the generations who follow them. There is room in this discussion for each generation...the one preceding as Mary Page has mentioned and all who follow. I guess we should decide right now to look at this discussion not as one in which we decide the "greatest", but as a discussion of the "greatest" contributions from this generation to the future...

ps. Tom Brokaw found that the one question that started the vets talking was "Where were you on D-Day?" Bill and Ray were in active service at the time and so they will have memories of that day. (Ray, I'm the mother of four sons and like your mother, I too would have been a basket case, I know!) I bet Ella's husband, Dick and other vets will remember that day too - but I'm wondering how many folks at home were aware of what was going on that day. Another question to ask to send you back down memory lane...Where were you the day Pearl Harbor was bombed?

Ann:

Good to hear from you!! You ask "where have I been?" I am the DL for Seniors View the Future and you can find me there on a daily basis. I can still remember our sitting side by side at a table in Chicago during the auction and laughing our heads off!

As a member of the generation being discussed (I was born in 1920), I agree with you regarding all those varying events being so important. At the time of the Dust Bowl I was living out on Long Island in the Atlantic Ocean and can remember looking upward and seeing those dark brown clouds covering the sun hour after hour. Imagine that -- people's farms were passing overhead and had traveled 2,000 miles to get there. So many traumatic events were happening during those years.

Good to see you, Ginny. May I repeat Joan's comment that this Discussion Group is for all generations and will enable other generations to understand what happened during the years of what Brokaw has labeled the "Greatest Generation."

Robby

Hi Phyl, Gladys & all! The posts are so interesting. It is the little stories that intrigue me. I was wondering what was happening in other parts of the world at the same time this Great Generation was gearing up for war. Do any of you have relatives from other countries who can tell us what happened in their homes. For instance, did everyone really wait for the good old USA to liberate them?

My book has not arrived. Sorry to be so late in my post - have had a blip in my life but communicating with everyone will help me mend quickly. Carol

A good point, Carol. Hard times existed around the world in that era and those of us who are citizens of the United States need to remind ourselves of that fact. "Great" does not have one nationality attached to it.

Robby

Mary Page...Your family of valiant women is so fascinating, all of them. What a wonderful heritage your family has, are there any modern day heroins? As Robby says, keep those stories coming, maybe you should write a book too....Lois

My book has not arrived, either. Very frustrating.

Ann writes that Tom Brokaw stresses in the book that people who experienced those difficult times exhibited a certain strength. As has been suggested in our posts, isn't it more likely that they exhibited a certain strength because of and to meet those difficult times?

Joan and others, this revisiting the word "greatest" doesn't feel like a disagreement to be solved or a which-side-are-you-on discussion, or (what seems to worry you) a detraction from all the wonderful memories and stories being shared. For the moment, it feels more like an initial touchstone of the discussion among those who were "coming of age" during the time, those who were small children experiencing "this is just how it was in our family" and those of us who were children of parents who were forever changed by what the world events demanded of them. For whatever meaning this part of this discussion holds for some of us, I want to suggest that revisiting the word "greatest" would be welcomed as we think about what we learned from those who lived through that extraordinary time.

I'll say again that Tom Brokaw has hit on something with his praise of this generation----that may never have been perceived or written about in this manner. A few years ago I watched a 2-3 hour documentary on the almost impossible transformation of our plane, ship and ammunitions manufacturing. In the first part of WWII, this country was completely unprepared to fight a world war----the number of military airplanes and warships was so low that, hearing the numbers today, they sound ridiculous. FDR promised a certain number would be produced to ship to England (who could not have prevented an invasion without them; they were down to the bare bones). Given the U.S. manufacturing capabilities in the 1940's, that promised number was hundreds of times over what was "possible." Yet, what he promised to deliver to England was delivered. The number of ships and planes needed each subsequent year continued to rise and the output stayed even with what was needed---each year's number sounding just that much more impossible.

I feel certain that many in the U.S. who came of age well after WWII still do not realize how close this world came to travelling a different path. People who fought in the war and who worked in a shipyard on the Pacific coast and in hundreds of other connected services literally saved our way of life.

Pardon me for going on and on. Must be in a reflective mood today. It just occured to me that we are who they are. The genes are the same. Whatever challenges they were able to meet should tell me what I'm capable of when life seems impossible.

Betty:

Permit me to state that you have made, in my opinion, a most insightful remark - that is, that the genes are still here and that today's generation will show itself to be "capable when life becomes impossible." The difference, therefore, lies not in the individuals of that generation but in what life handed them -- the Dust Bowl, the stock market crash, the lack of medications as we now know them, the Great Depression, the overall poverty, and on and on and on. I think that Emerson's comment bears repeating: "Adversity breeds character."

The men and women today just out of high school and "earning" their millions of dollars in Wall Street have no idea whatsoever what we went through (and we are not complaining, mind you) but threaten this nation in some way and "make life impossible" and the genes that Betty mentions will immediately come to the fore. This I believe.

Robby

Hello ann,not seen you since our visit did you see the picture hi gingee.D,day,I was home in England,I lost a lot of friends cousins,as well as them becoming ptisoners of war.Marywe didnt exactly wait for the US to join the war we were fighting hanging in there,but we could never have done without you ,In the beginning of the war,men were training with brooms and sticks,we were completly tken by surprise ,so sure it wasnt going to happen.we were at war six long years,and rationing continued 10 yrs after.We lived on the main rd called london rd.we came very close to losing ,we had a big concrete wide pillar ,just outside our house,thats how close we came it was to block the tanks.spirits were low at that time .the battle of Britain was of course unforgettable,planes were strewn all over the country side. that was when Churchhill said,`never was so much owed to so few~ what a day.talking of letters I recieved one from an old boy friend who was taken prisoner at dunkirk,for some reason I never answered. This has remminded me all over again. gladys

Gladys, have you saved many letters from those years?

Joan I am afraid I havnt.I have had so many other personal ventures and moved about keep starting afresh.Gladys

There have been quite a lot of books written about D-Day now. The very first one I remember (and please note, I am stressing 'that I remember') was Jim Bishop's. He was a newspaper reporter/columnist/writer. Long dead now. I cannot remember whether his was "D-Day, the Sixth of June", or "The Longest Day', but I believe it was the latter and that the movie was made from it.

Oh, that Book! It gave you minute by minute and hour by hour exactly what was going on on Both Sides! All of it affected me deeply, but the beginning of the book where a German soldier tells of being in one of those bunkers in the wee hours of that morning and scanning the waters of the channel every few minutes and finding it clear and expecting to find it clear, and then, all of a sudden, Dear God! Or Gotten Himmel, as I believe he actually said. As far as he could see, from East to West and covering the scene and still pouring in from the North, Ships and Boats. Thousands and thousands of them. I still tear up when I think of it.

MaryPage:

In one of your earlier postings you spoke of women in your family who "would have died for their country." Now you speak of "tearing up" when thinking of the great D-Day armada.

Please tell us, MaryPage, what is your definition of patriotism?

Robby

I don't really have one, Robby.

I lived at West Point for 4 years while my father taught physics there. Running wild all over the Post, as Brats do because there is really no way they can get off Post, I sopped up a lot of "Duty, Honor, Country."

Bottom line, I don't think patriotism is something you do or are, as in being patriotic or being a patriot. I am rather turned off by too much SHOW of patriotism. I think it is an emotion having to do with home and home people. During WWII, this whole country became home and everyone in it, black, white, pink and freckled, became home folks. We smiled at one another on the streets. We slept on one another's shoulders in overcrowded trains and buses. We shared around our very rare and hard to find candy bars. That feeling just sort of s l o w l y ........ diminished after the war as we all had to deal with the difficult adjustments of reorganizing our lives. But it was still there, under the surface. Then came Viet Nam and divided this country as nothing had since the recent unpleasantness between the states. I am not certain where it is today. There is so much hurling of virulent accusations back and forth in both public and private life. I have even been called a communist because I favor national health! It surprises, pains, and has to be let go of. Funny thing, Robby. When we were in the greatest danger to this Republic of all times, WWII, we were SO at peace in this nation. Now the most present danger seems to be a question of whether we are strong enough to rescue and return a son to his father, and we seem to have little peace and brotherhood to speak of.

I have been reading all the posts and am moved by so many memories which I share with all of you. But I believe this discussion was not to be so much nostalgia and reminiscences as (as Tom Brokaw put it) "a catalyst for more dialogue between the generations about the lessons of that time and what we can be doing together now." I don't know how we can reach the generations that have come after us by merely posting our memories here. How can we put to use today some of the lessons we learned in that long ago time?

We learned how fascism and the hate it produced could destroy not only personal liberty but life itself. Have we truly learned the lesson of the Holocaust so that we will not tolerate skinheads and hate-mongers in our own country who preach anti-semitism, who vilify and, yes, murder black Americans, and Americans of unpopular sexual orientation?

Do the lessons of that time have any significance in the protests going on right now against the World Trade Organization?

Have we forgotten that our country which produced the heroes and the people who showed such strength and courage also produced people who spat at, cursed and attacked black children who wanted a better education. It is true that our nation has made much progress but can we close our eyes to the fact that we are not always "great", that we are also capable of being less that great.

Robby asked MaryPage what her definition of patriotism is. I'm sure she will answer that for herself. I believe that patriotism is more than proudly flying our flag on holidays, it is more than rhetoric and grand speeches. It is being proud of our achievements and the liberties we enjoy. But it is also recognizing our faults and learning from our history how to preserve our liberties.

MaryPage,

You say it so well as have so many others here. During the days of WWII we were so busy pulling together that no one had time to pull against each other.

And to insert what may be a cynical note--we were a less informed society during that time. Now, with t.v. and the Net, we hear more and see more of all sides of any situation. It makes for confused thinking sometimes.

Phyll

I have been reading all the messages and it suddenly occured to me that we are all using the computer. If you remember the depression and the start of WW11, you are no youngster. I am almost 75 and have had the computer for a few months. I am so glad that I can be part of this discussion. I have so many memories of the thirties and forties. I think back to a time when my family would sit by the radio and wait for reports. We had practice blackouts and took them very seriously. I have not received my book yet but reserved it at the library.We are some- thing, aren't we?

Gail reminds us that "we are capable of being less than great." What is your answer to her question: "How can we put to use today some of the lessons we learned in that long ago time?"

Robby

That's right partyday!! Most of us here must be in our 70s or older and we understand and know how to use the computer. I guess our generation never stops.

I'm reminded of that TV comercial of the Italian grand-father walking along with his grand-daughter and saying "What a wonderfull age we live in." And she had a look of great admiration on her face.

Robby,

Unfortunately, on an occasional day when I am feeling cynical, I think of the increasing swell of Neo-nazism and I wonder if we have learned any lessons at all from the horrors of the Hitler years. I understand that within the German educational system that whole period was downplayed or even ignored. What is the quote that goes something like...."Those who do not know history are doomed to repeat it." Not quite a correct quote, I think, but perhaps someone here knows the exact words.

Phyll

Phyll:

I believe it was Santayana who said: "Those who do not remember the past are doomed to repeat it."

Do the rest of us here believe another war is in the offing?

Robby

Mal:

The attack on Pearl Harbor was certainly a traumatic event for you. The effect on children was perhaps greater than many of us realized.

Robby

In the late-thirties when radios were common in taxicabs, people in the streets of New York City would often gather around the taxis and listen to overseas broadcasts featuring the rantings of Hitler. Almost no one could understand the German but the strident tones of his words were evident. The majority of the public did not believe at that time that America would enter the war but the heightened concern of those listening could be seen. As I look back, I realize that a significant number of those listening were Jewish and who undoubtedly realized the significance of what was going on.

Robby

I can't imagine what it must have been like in those days before the war for the Jewish people! No matter how concerned for the future they may have been, nothing could have prepared them or the world for the unspeakable nightmare that was to come.

Gail, I'm thinking of your question about applying lessons of the past to the future...What will tomorrow's children learn of or from the generation that produced a Hitler, that was ready to follow such a man?

Mal, I am profoundly moved by your account, your detailed memory of events on a date so long ago! Even down to the wallpapering!!! When was the last time you thought about that day and those events? Was it just the memory of that date that brought the details back? Isn't the mind a strange, mysterious thing the way it "files" away so much that we are not even aware is there?

I think that anniversaries get you thinking about things that happened on a particular date...on my son's 30th birthday recently, I marvelled at the detailed recollection of his birth - so real, it could have happened 30 days ago! Not the pain, of course, just the face, my husband, the doctor and even the two student nurses who were witnessing their first birth that day!

Anniversaries tend to unleash memories! Did the 50th anniversary observations of WWII cause Vets you know to begin to talk of their memories - more than they had in the past? This seems to be what happened to Tom Brokaw in Normandy on the 40th anniversary of DDay. He was hearing stories of that war for the first time from people who had been there. Stories not available in history books, but that had been filed away in some part of the brain all those years ~ and he wanted to hear more.....

hello party girl,that was one of my first thoughts me being on the computer at my age.It is hard for me to pin Patriosm down,being through ww11 in England,and having a son in Vietnam,that time sticks in my memory also.That was a time as someone said we were very divided ,and had our own little wars on the home front.I have always been concerned about the vets of the war,people acted like they were to blame!It certainly wasnt a place our boys chose to be.they couldnt get jobs ,when they got home,and true or not I have seen some very disturbing pictures of disabled vet,s in hospitals. I have had my foot on both sides of the Atlantic in war and peace. in the fifties,?I was in New mexico when the Greenspans,were executed for spying.that stands out very cleary in my mind .I can remmmeber the warden who took care of Ethel,breaking down in tears the day she was executed.It seems she was a lovely person to know.who knows what makes people do these things!money I guess the way we treated black people also,and they didnt ask to be here. can we wonder why kids do these things now.they havnt had a very good example.how can we stop it ?I just got an Email ,it said of a child in School why didnt god stop the columbine killings>answerbecause god is not allowed in Schools.that was just one part ,but food for thought . and yes I think there will definatly be another ww.I know kids are being taught,not to believe the holocast !people my age all know someone who witnessed it first hand when the camps were released,piles of bodies,we had no TV then ,but was on the movie news all the time Gladys

Hi Gladys, Partygirl! Love that name! So glad you both looked technology in the eye and conquered! I'm trying to get together a chart of SN's Greatest, working backwards, through the posts. Will you all please proof the chart? Make any additions or corrections to me in an email. Once I get that straight, new names and dates from here on will be a piece of cake to add. It's this first attempt that needs work...

You can see it up in the heading right here - the very last line!

Thanks you all!

Gladys, the person or persons who made up that e-mail circulated around and sent to you, among others, probably does not realize how lacking in respect for God their question and answer sound:

Why did God not stop the killings at Columbine?

BECAUSE he is not allowed in schools! How DARE anyone purport to deliver to the rest of us an Answer from God! And how about all of the God-loving and praying children who died? The Answer can only be that we do not Know the answer(s).

But the God of my understanding is such that none of us is capable of keeping Her out of schools or anywhere else!

Mal:

Please share some more of your WWII memories which you say are in your "autobiographical novel."

Gladys:

Please tell us what makes you feel so sure that "there will be another war."

Robby

Tom Brokaw speaks of the "lessons of the war of my early years." We are attempting here, I think, to address those lessons. Wouldn't it be helpful in this discussion to list the reasons why wars occur? These are standard questions in high school and college courses, of course, but will the future generation recognize the causes should they occur? Isn't that one of the reasons for the demonstrations against the IMF and the World Bank? - the unfairness of their policies toward the poorer nations? Could the haves and have-nots be a reason for war? Would the have-nots ever win?

What caused WWI? What were Hitler's goals? Why did South Vietnam and South Korea go to war? Can we see a common thread here for war? Something perhaps to discuss while we are waiting for our books?

In questioning my husband regarding D-Day he initially said he didn't remember - it was over 55 years ago, but when I asked how they got their news I got a little response. His carrier was in the South Pacific at the time and they had daily newspapers on their ship! Well, I didn't know that! Someone was responsible for listening to the radio and gathering the news both on the home front and the war fronts and compiling the news into a sheet approximately 8-l/2x14 folded in half. He did remember the excitement over the atomic bomb drops over Japan as they were in the Phillipines readying the fleet to attack.

Previously, he had told me how frightening the Japanese kamikaze pilots were at the end of the war; not only in fear of the planes hitting their ships, but the horror of a country training men to commit this act of suicide. Our troops were taught survival at all costs - live to fight another day! I think that horror remains with him as much as anything; however, he still does not want to talk about the war - it's over and best be forgotten he says.

In many respects he may be right. We cannot live in the pain of the past or it will conquer our spirit; what do I know of what he may have seen and wants to forget. So I will not prod him again to tell of those days. We made one attempt to attend a reunion of the sailors of his carrier about 15 years ago, neither of us wanted to go again.

Ella:

You have brought out, in my opinion, some extremely relevant questions. We need to understand ourselves and the people around us. Not necessarily the wars themselves but the reasons for the wars. As Brokaw asks: "What are the lessons?"

As you say, our troops were taught survival. Gen. Patton has been quoted as saying: "Your job is not to die for your country; your job is to make the other fellow die for his country."

But why???

Robby

One of the best programs for fighting the depression by providing jobs that created parks and community improvements was the Civilian Conservation Corps and the National Youth Administration.

My father spent many months away from his family in the CCC project that built a national park at Grafton IL. I have forgotten the name of the project, but it had to do with the Indian mounds and settlements that lined the Mississippi around the Alton area.

The NYA gave youths an opportunity to work at community jobs while attending school. At BTHS there were jobs provided to do janitorial help. Also the colleges had NYA projects, mostly of the work & training type. At SINU at Carbondale the NYA trained surveyors and surveyor helpers.

Just wanted to say hello tonight. I don't really have much to say, other than I sure am enjoying reading all that eveyone else has posted in here.

Still patiently waiting for my book to arrive.

Jenny

So much has been written about the unfairness and greed after WW I as being the cause of WWII. The payback from Germany to the other nations was beyond the capabilty of Germany and the following depression, although bad here was mild as compared to Germany. Pictures show woman getting on line for the few the eggs available and the inflation was minute by minute so that by the time she is at the head of the line and could buy her eggs they are too expensive and she does not have enough money to make the purchase. There are photos of the homeless Germans sleeping packed by the hundreds in the narrow streets of cities, towns and villages.

In those circumstances it was easy for folks to be urged to hate their age old scape goat, the Jews and to listen to someone who sounded the call to national pride with the historical victories of other Riechts. The outline for the third Riecht was written in 1879 outlining Germany's belief that more land for their increasing population was the answer. The document listed German laws that would affect the Jews along with many other statements of belief that would bring Germany into it's rightful glory.

From a speach in the Reichstag in 1899:The rapid growth of our population, the unprecedented blossoming of our industries, the hard work of our merchants, in short the mighty vitality of the German people have woven us into the world economy and pulled us into international politics.

If the English speak of a 'Greater Britain;' if the French speak of a 'Nouvelle France;' if the Russians open up Asia; then we, too, have the right to a greater Germany (Bravo! from the right, laughter from the left), not in the sense of conquest, but indeed in the sense of peaceful extension of our trade and its infrastructures... We cannot and will not permit that the order of the day passes over the German people...

There is a lot of envy present in the world against us (calls from the left), political envy and economic envy. There are individuals and there are interest groups, and there are movements, and there are perhaps even peoples that believe that the German was easier to have around and that the German was more pleasant for his neighbors in those earlier days, when, in spite of our education and in spite of our culture, foreigners looked down on us in political and economic matters like cavaliers with their noses in the air looking down on the humble tutor. (Very true! - Laughter.) These times of political faintness and economic and political humility should never return (Lively Bravo.) We don't ever again want to become, as Friedrich List put it, the 'slaves of humanity.' But we'll only be able to keep ourselves at the fore if we realize that there is no welfare for us without power, without a strong army and a strong fleet.

The change in attitude by the majarity of Germans today has facinated me in that I know of no other people that have absorbed and feel a true contrition for their past and are now acting from a completly different mindset. And in some ways our need for power with strong artifacts of war is a puzzlement.

Here is a little more of the beliefs of German Glory as believed by the conservative right or Weimar Government. Of course we can all recognize these are the activities clicked off by Hitler as he carried forth the third Riecht. The First Riecht, when Germans or the Huns knocked on the gates of Rome the Second Riecht is usually considered to be when Charlegmane unified most of Europe that was later divided by his three sons. The link takes you to the complete details of this text.

Heinrich Class, "If I Were Kaiser" (1912) Under the pseudonym of Daniel Frymann, Heinrich Class (1868-1953), President of the Pan-German League since 1908, expressed the sentiments of radical nationalists regarding the "reform" of the German Empire they deemed absolutely essential to stave off catastrophe.

The Text includes statements like:
We must take up the "struggle for the soul of the people," to paraphrase a beautiful slogan. The army administration will ... providing the opportunity for soldiers to hear lectures drawn from German history....If we are to take up this struggle, we must be clear about it: no half-measures, no weakness, no sentimentality. The whole work [must be carried out] with a firm, a hard will....

A return to health in our national life, in all its branches --cultural, moral, political, and economic--and the maintenance of that recovered health is only possible if Jewish influence is either completely expunged or screwed back to a bearable, innocuous level.

Let us be clear in the discussion of these necessities that the innocent must suffer along with the guilty.... borders must be totally and unconditionally barred to any further Jewish immigration...A Jew, according to the above Aliens' Law, is anyone who belonged to a Jewish religious corporation as of 18 January 1871, as well as all the descendants of such persons who were Jews at that date, even when only one parent was or is [a Jew by the above definition]. All public offices remain closed to Jews...As compensation for the protection Jews enjoy as foreigners, they shall pay double the taxes of Germans....

And now we come to the saving of the German nation's soul....When it comes to the future of our nation, we must put off weakness....

Resolutely militant policy against the Poles through application of expropriation and introduction of a prohibition against parcellization of land....Extension of military law to all regions endangered by Polish assault. Especially for Upper Silesia we must demand that those elected by the Polish people can sit in parliament only as advisors;

...When we consider that in [Alsace-Lorraine] the number of French speakers has grown constantly since 1871, we need to speak out in cold blood. We didn't take the Reichsland "for the sake of your beautiful eyes"; we took it out of military necessity. The inhabitants were an extra; the territory was the main thing...Every adult must declare publicly and without reservation for himself and his family,... that the French language will be used neither in the home nor outside it and that no newspapers, periodicals, or books will be brought in from France.

To facilitate the settlement of Germans [in Schleswig], the right of expropriation of Danish landed property is to be granted to the state, similar to the one applying to Poles.

Keeping this overall goal firmly in sight means therefore that all non-German aliens must be expelled from the territory of the Empire as swiftly as possible and under all conditions; and then they must be kept out for the duration....

Art is too holy to be misused in this way; our nation is too good to be exposed to such seduction....To safeguard art from petty police chicanery, the office of censor will be transferred to the best and most recognized masters in all fields....

In the discussion of voting rights it has already been put forth that the political strivings of women cannot be regarded as justifiable or useful. The strength of the woman is instinct. If she is conscious of her nation and proud of its character, history, greatness, and exploits, the German woman, acting on instinct, will cause her children to value their fatherland in feeling and attitude so that when they begin to think they can do naught but love it....

In the best of our people the need lives on today to follow a strong and virtuous leader. All who have not been seduced by the doctrines of an un-German democracy long for such a one, not because they are inclined to servility or weak in character, but because they know that greatness can only exert itself through the coming together of individual powers--something that can be achieved only through subordination to a leader.

Barbara:

It is good that you have given us some important history to contemplate. The question was: "What lessons have we learned" and to learn properly, one must examine both sides. When I was about five years old (1925), I remember my father telling me that things were so bad at that time in Germany that people carried around almost worthless Marks in big sacks and that when a sale of some sort was going on, one didn't count their number, one made a pile and then measured the pile with a ruler to estimate the money transaction.

You have helped us, Barbara, to see the pride of a nation that was down and out and which led to the speeches of Hitler that were referred to earlier. I'm sure that none of us here is espousing war or the terrible treatment of the Jews. We are examining hardship endured by the peoples on both sides.

On more than one occasion as we entered the war I heard the Biblical quotation: "If God be for us, who can be against us?" As I entered a deserted house in Herzogenrath, Germany, one day in 1944 I saw a wall hanging and on it was written in German: "If God be for us, who can be against us?"

Robby

Good morning, Robby! Tom Brokaw has high hopes that his book will "inspire" the greatest generation to speak up, to start a dialogue so that those who follow might learn something that will make a difference in their lives. I think that we are doing something very important here through these thoughtful posts, don't you?

When I was reading Barbara's account just now, I couldn't help but think about the dialogue among generations in Germany. It must be very different!! Long-held beliefs in power-"strong army, strong fleet" and the willingness to place all trust and confidence in a Hitler were changed by the war experience and the message in the generational dialogue must re-enforce and continue this lesson to its young. The Germany of today seems to have learned its lessons from the preceding generation through such dialogue.

Ella's husband is like many veterans of that war that I know. They'd rather not talk about the war experience at all. It is something "best forgotten." In some cases it is just too painful to dredge up the memories. I think we can all understand that. But the "war is hell" lesson is such a crucial one, isn't it? Do our young fully appreciate the real horror of war, or are they numbed by the movies, video games they have been exposed to? I find more and more that many just find war irrelevant to their lives. They have never experienced the draft. They think that some sign up for a career in the armed services and war is just part of that scene. But war does not affect their own lives, or where they live, so there is little interest in hearing about what is going on in other parts of the world - or in the past. Is this dangerous?

It has been my impression that the 50th anniversary of WWII brought many of the Vets of that war -"out of the closet" and they did begin to speak, movies, documentaries of WWII took the stage. And Tom Brokaw made his "discovery" - the importance of the stories these Vets had to tell - and not only that, the values and basic core beliefs and pre-war experiences that enabled them to face the war and then to come home and rebuild here at home!

Did the 50th anniversary of WWII bring out memories of that time in your neck of the woods? Are folks still talking? I felt and still feel a renewed interest. Did Tom Brokaw take this interest in the war a step further in his books?

ps It is from the highest authority that the books are in the mail! Let us know the MINUTE yours arrives!

There is an editor's letter in American Heritage magazine of Nov'98 plus an article in the most recent copy about the D-Day Museum which might interest everyone. Also, an article about Andrew Jackson Higgins, the industrialist who built most of the boats used in the war and especially on D-Day. <http://www.americanheritage.com/98/nov/007.htm">. I have the magazine article but its not yet online.

Joan, I proofed the list above and wanted to mention Betty Henderson(Hendie) as part of the GG. There is also Gladys Berry. Both were adults during WWII in England.

I also have mentioned several women cousins, an aunt and four male cousins who were in WWII but I didn't think that they should be put on this list. The women were nurses and the men, a pilot who was a POW in Germany, who has his own homepage compliments of his son, WWII Pilot> plus there were several infantry men.

Ann reminds us that we have folks here who are part of the generation of which we speak and who were British. We also have Canadian participants here. Barbara reminds us of the hardships going on in Germany at that time. As we refer to what is being called the "Greatest Generation," are we speaking of only the American generation or all those born approximately 1920 in nations all over the world.

We speak of the landings on the beach on D-Day. Which beach? Are we speaking only of Omaha Beach and Utah Beach which saw American landings or are we speaking also of the casualities of the brave Canadians on Juno Beach as well as the many British casualities on Sword and Gold beach?

Our friend, Britta, German born and a survivor of the Dresden fire bombings by the Allies shared with us in another forum the pain endured by the German civilians in that city. MaryPage in an earlier posting spoke of patriotic members of her family who would "die for our nation." As we look at that generation are we also referring to the brave German soldiers -- not Hitler's personal storm troopers -- but the average German youth who joined the Wehrmacht just as the average youth here joined our military? Many German young died for their nation. What are our thoughts of the Japanese Kamikaze (suicide) bombers who were not only willing to give their lives for their nation but made it a point to do so?

As we examine the Greatest Generation, are most of us speaking only of the American generation or are we including all the youth of that time?

Robby

Well, it will be interesting to see if Tom Brokaw goes beyond the American generation when we begin to discuss the individual stories in the books, but what is America but a podge of all nationalities...just as it was in the first quarter of the century? Many of those who "came of age" during WWII had roots elsewhere. Of course they will be of utmost interest here!

I hope you all had a chance to read Ann's link in post #349. It directly ties in to what we are doing here...I liked this:"Stephen Ambrose, had been considered something of an eccentric when he started gathering the oral histories of World War II veterans back in the 1970s."

Ann, Gladys is on the original list - but will add her last name. Will add Hendy too! Anyone else missing? Check the list - in the last line of the heading above?

Has anyone seen "Swing Kids" an appropiate movie for this age, relating the story of the verbotten music and dance in Germany during early Nazi time? Good movie and it gives us a different peak at what might have happened over there. I am assured, by my daughter, that the movie is a true story. Also, she says there is a movie just titled "Swing" that is also good. Haven't seen that yet. I tried to find a site for "Swing Kids" but haven't yet come up with anything usable here.

hello Joan ,My last name is Barry!1Iam still waiting for my book ,just read your assurance.I am just waiting to see what else I can contribute of interest.gladys

I have a girlfriend who was raised in Germany during the war, she came to this country in 1955 and married here became a citizen and never forgets to vote and has no patience with anyone who does not vote. According to her, all children including herself had to join the Hitler's Children Group. Her Father had to go to war, he was to old didn't matter. She said she was fortunate that they lived in a little farm village so they had plenty to eat. She said they had uniforms and marched and had meetings and she also said you never said a word against anything. They went to church and worked she remembers spending nights in the air-raid bunkers many times awakened from a deep sleep and running to them, they didn't get any more sleep but were at school or work any way sleep didn't matter or the lack there of. I made a mistake of asking her one day what she think caused the war and she very harshly told me the Jews. I asked how could that be and she said they are thiefts they stole everything from them, well I cut that discussion off at the pass so to speak, I just had never heard anything like that in my life.

Carollee:

But doesn't that exemplify that old maxim: "As the branch is bent, so grows the tree."

Robby

Robby definitly she is as bitter today about that as yesterday even with all the horror that Hilter brought. I don't understand all of it and can't see how she can still believe it.

Sometimes the language of emotion is stronger than the language of logic.

Robby

Robbie you asked me the other day,why I think there will be another war.As Carolee just said the bitternes is still there,it got to be passed on to their generation.most German people are not bitter,and a lot of us are not bitter ,but it is an undercurrant,which will blow one day again,like the song in south Pacific``youv,e got to be carefully taught` gladys

Gladys:

So perhaps those of us in this older generation better watch carefully what our very young'uns are being taught. What can those of us in this generation do about it?

Robby

robbie thatis the sad thing ~`what gets through,there are so many double standards~you can talk to your children ,they will hear different versions all over.they must get bewildered also.the main place is the home,there again~home isnt how it used to be,seperated families there ,its mother versus Father ,and on it goes people cant get on with one another,where do we start?gladys

How do the rest of you suggest that we pass on what we have learned to the upcoming generation? Is it all a waste of time? In order for them to learn, is it necessary for them to go through depressions, wars, and various hardships just as we did? Is it impossible to have character without adversity?

Robby

Robby---I think it is possible to develop character without having the kind of adversity that has been discussed in here, but it seems to me that children have to learn some lessons on their own, by experience. Parents and grands can tell stories and try to teach, but every time a child is born, a whole new beginning is made. Unfortunately, most of us don't learn very well by being told things by other people. Thus we keep reinventing the wheel.

Maryal

An aside:--

Today is the anniversary of Hitler's birth - 1889.

Robby

Sadly Robby I sort of think that maybe they DO have to learn on their own. My sons have always been very interested to hear about things that happened in the past and were very moved by some of the stories. However when I try to share my wisdom with them to possibly SAVE them some grief down the road, I always get "oh MOTHER"!! Think this proves we have to learn the worlds "hard knocks" ourselves!

Just a thought.

Jenny

This, then, may sound ridiculous but if we want our grandchildren to learn, how can we create some "hard knocks" for them? Tough love?

Robby

Am I hearing a question for Tom Brakaw in the making?

I've "listened" to the sage advice of one of our posters here and removed the last names on the chart of the "greatest" -

Will you take a moment and be sure all is right with the chart above - last line in the heading?

This may sound like such any EASY idea here on the screen, BUT I think that this world we live in will supply plenty of "hard knocks" for them. What we need to do as grandparents is to make sure that we do everything we can to encourage that there be "SOMEONE" at home for our the children! I know that I sound like a broken record to keep bringing this up, but I feel that it is our answer to bringing the family back together again.

Jenny

Malryn, I was born in May 1929, so that makes YOU the elder! Sorry about that!

Carollee, I had a conversation with a very dear friend who came over here from Germany after the war. She is younger than I by more than a decade, but her sentiments were similar to the ones you posted regarding hatred of the Jews. Also, she denies totally that the gas chambers existed during the war. She says they were built AFTER the war by the Allies to make the Germans look bad. She says she knows this to be true because her parents told her so. Then her eyes well up with tears and I die a million deaths for her.

Anti-semitism was widespread throughout Europe at the time that Hitler ruled Germany. It was not just the Germans by any means.

MaryPage! I'm sorry! I mean to say you're younger than I am. Forgive me, please.

P.S. I'm laughing. At our age, what difference does it make?

Mal

Denver Darling...Re: your post, "What we need to do as grandparents is to make sure that we do everything we can to encourage that there be "SOMEONE" at home for our the children!"...You couldn't have said anything more true! These days, it is almost impossible for a mother to stay home with her children, for many reasons...financial, etc...My children have all (thank God), thought this was important enough that they have managed to do so. One of my daughters, early in her marriage, made more money than her husband and after discussing it, HE opted to be the "at home" parent. My oldest daughter is a single parent,(talk about hard...). That, I feel, is where a grandparent can give of her time and wisdom...I retired from my job in the medical field to care for my grandaughter full time, because her mothers' working is a necessity. It breaks her heart to have to leave her 8 hrs a day, but she is so grateful that she doesn't have to resort to day care, or welfare program. And...this gives me the opportunity to impart our values and beliefs to her.

Family IS the key...

Eddie

How can anyone forget the moment they heard we were hitting the beaches in Normandy?

Does anyone remember, or do you have the Edward R. Murrow "I Can Hear It Now" recordings you can replay, that after General Eisenhower spoke to the world to tell us what was taking place, the Queen of The Netherlands spoke to her people from Canada, and various kings in exile in England spoke to Their peoples, and the immortal Chas de Gaulle spoke to the French? Oh, the tears ROLLED down my cheeks!

When much was made of the 50th anniversary of D-Day, someone wrote a letter to the editor of THE WASHINGTON POST to ask why everyone was giving so much attention to THIS day when there had been many, many other memorable battles in WWII.

And I wanted to cry out to that person, Oh, it was not the BATTLE that was the thing! It was that we had waited and waited for Years and all of Europe was under Hitler's thumb and we thought the day would Never come that we began to push him Back to Berlin! THAT was the big thing about D-Day. We were On Our Way. "There'll Be A Hot Time In The Town of Berlin, When The Yanks Come Marching In! I Want To Be There, Boy, And Spread Some Joy When They Take Old Berlin!" Our first objective was to free Paris. "The Last Time I Saw Paris, Her Trees Were Dressed For Spring!" It was SUCH a big morale booster here on the Home Front and all over the globe. That was D-Day.

We also knew very many lives would be lost. Many, many of them were from my home valley, the Valley of Virginia, also known as the Shenandoah. We did worry about and grieve for them. In this respect, it was equal to any of the other battles of the war in importance. Any American boy who died was an unbearable loss.

But D-Day was an overwhelming emotional experience for Planet Earth in its entirity.

Malyrn,Mary Page, I was heartened that you reminded all of us of December 7th the bombing of Pearl Harbor and then the Bataan death march, the London bombings and Europe being under the Nazi heel. I thought people only remembered August 6, l995. Many act as though we should be ashamed of it. We have nothing to be ashamed of. We didn't ask for Pearl, Bataan, or Hitler. I believe in this old quote "MY COUNTRY. MAY SHE ALLWAYS BE RIGHT. BUT MY COUNTRY RIGHT OR WRONG." However in this case, I don't think she was wrong.

So,Robby, the monster was born one-hundred-eleven-years ago today.

Yes, it's the monsters birthday and do you know this is a popular dayfor ransacking cemeteries? We always had extra security at this time as so many markers would be turned over and many of them smashed.

Good Heavens! What is the rationale?

Hitler was destructive and so are these idiots.

MARY PAGE...I'm trying to get my BIL to come here, but he claims he can't type, which is true, I guess. His wife does all the email. Anyway...he was on Eisenhower's staff and was one of the group that broke the German code, which was instrumental in making D Day possible, of course. And when Ike said "OK, let's do it!", Paul was the one who actually pressed the button that let Washington know that we were on our way! He has written a fascinating account of all his experiences during the war, and I wish there was some way you could all read it. Maybe I'll just quote a paragraph now and then.

PETITE ONE...what is this about ransacking cemeteries? Why this date?

Love...Katie

My memory of England before I entered the Continent was of an international melange. Of course there were British soldiers all over the place as well as the American troops. But there were also those tall handsome Aussies with their broad brim hats turned up "just so." We could hardly understand them; they sounded more British to us than the British. And, of course, those fellows who spoke just like us but the uniforms told us they were Canadian. None of us laughed at the soldiers who wore uniforms similar to ours except that they were wearing kilts. We had heard about them. My father had told me that during World War I they had been called the "Ladies from Hell." Then there were those big blond fellows wearing British uniforms who looked a bit non-British until we realized why when we heard them speak and saw the shoulder patches saying "Poland." Then there were the shorter fellows in their distinctive khaki uniforms with the patches saying: "Francais Libre."

All of them members of units which were part of the invasion - part of the "Greatest Generation." As we speak of that generation, to which nationality are we referring?

Robby

Katie:

PLEASE! PLEASE! Try to share as much of your brother-in-law's story with us that you can. It sounds fascinating and will give us another perspective on the D-Day story.

Robby

I just found this quote----"The earth breaks everyone and afterward, many are strong in the broken places." Ernst Hemingway

Betty:

I believe I have shared in another forum how, when I was a Scout Executive, I used to teach Scoutmasters the "tug of war" with a moral. A clothesline would be stretched between Scouts - a dozen on one end and a dozen on the other. They would pull until the rope broke. The frayed ends were attached with a square knot and the pull began again until the rope broke a second time.

The rope NEVER NEVER broke where the knot was. That had become the strongest part of the rope.

Robby

Katie, this date is Hitlers' birthday.

robbie did my heart good to hear you mention theladies from Hell. my husband was a Scot. it seems that most of us lean to family being the place to begin. hello Denver Darling ,nice to see you again.

Robby, weren't there many other countries there as well? Perhaps they did not fight under their own flags? Weren't the French, Belgians and Dutch there?

My great aunt, who was in the underground, had dear friends whose 4 older sons escaped Belgium to England. I believe she said at least one of them flew with the Royal Air Force. My memory is dim and she is long dead. But their younger brother and sister, twins they were, could not leave, nor could their parents. So the twins helped with the underground. They would move a radio around in the forest so that the "Huns", as my aunt insisted on calling them, could not find it. They started when they were 12. They were caught when they were 14. My aunt just made a terrible face when we asked what happened to them. This was one of the rare stories she told. She told it while dining with my family on the occasion of my son's 12th birthday. Apparently his turning 12 turned the valves of her memory. We never could prevail upon her to deliberately tell us anything. Very frustrating.

Katie, ask your brother-in-law who was on Eisenhower's staff at the time of D-Day how long he had been with Ike and how long he stayed with him. I am curious to put a question to him if he had been with him long enough to know the answer. The question is, did they have problems with Patton? I was an army brat, and after the war the other returning West Pointers used to tell one another some horror stories about stuff Patton pulled. But they never seemed to tell the world, which always amazed me. The Long Grey Line sticking together, I suppose.

Mary Page.It seems when I lived in England during the war Patton had a reputation for being mean. He visited a little village in England called knutsford,it was in the movie about him.he left a bad impression then.the movie kind of indicated he was ,I thought.just thought it would help .

MARY PAGE and GLADYS...I think when Patton slapped that soldier the world found out what he was like. It was often tempered with remarks about what a great general he was, but I think people truly had their eyes opened.

ROBBIE...My son has Paul's story, but I will retrieve it this weekend and see how much I can pass on here. Darn! I sure wish he'd come here himself! Also, my dad was one of the first Boy Scouts in the USA. When he was 83 he received his 70th year pin, which had to be made especially for him. He was a Hornaday Award winner, too, by the way.

Love...Katie

hi Katie .nice to see you here,how is your computer now ? lost without them arnt we ?

Hi Gladys, Katie, Carollee, and all. I am here and enjoying all of you so much, so much history.

Ginger

hi gingee,Iam up late to night glad to seee you ,miss you on my branch.gladys

Gladys, I shall return to our branch as I do go back often now but got so far behind for a while. I am concerened about our cheer leader, Gert etc. so I am there just not posting at this time.

I will be thinking of you alot when I go to England. Wish you were coming but I understand. Love, Ginger

Enjoying so the many stories here in this folder. Thanks to eveyone for sharing so much and please continue to post all that you can remember.

Sadly there was thought to be a correlation between Hitler's Birthday today and the day that was choosen for the sad shootings at Columbine High School. Those two boys were very much in to Hitler. SAD!

Thank you Eddie for your nice comments in regard to my thoughts of how important for us to see that we have "someone" at home for our children that we are bringing in to this world. They need our love and guidance so much.

A special HELLO to Gladys. I am here because of you dear and I so appreciate your sharing this folder with me.

A good "Good Friday" to all.

Jenny

Denver Darling, I did not know that Those two boys were very much in to Hitler, so what was there aim and there gain? Maybe I did not follow this close enough, but I thought I had?

Gladys Hi to you Love from Gingee.

Ginger But I will always be Gingee to Gladys (Right Gladys)

This is what I have read Virginia. AND yes I have also heard that many young people today follow in "Hitlerism" as you call it. Very sad to accept that anyone would think that was something to want to be like isn't it?

AGAIN though we find that IF the families of the two Columbine students had been more united they would have KNOWN that this kind of activity was going on in their own homes.

I sincerly hope that Columbine High School can now put this terrible tragedy behind them for the sake of the students. They deserve to have a more normal school atmosphere with out all the media attention that they have had to endure during this past year.

Jenny

Denver Darlin, Maybe the families of the two Columbine students did know and believe the same, Who knows and this all has made me really start to think on all this again. Ginger

MaryPage:

Yes, there were Belgian and Dutch soldiers operating out of England. As I said, it was a true international melange there.

Katie:

Interesting that your father was one of the first Boy Scouts. The Scouting movement was started in England in 1900 by Lord Baden Powell who had been a General in the Boer War and the movement came to the United States in 1910. I saw many Scouts in England during the war who were most active in furthering the war effort. Non-combative of course. Perhaps Gladys and others can tell us a bit about that.

If there are any in this Discussion Group who were in Germany prior to the war, maybe they can help us to understand what was going on in the minds of the populace. I am not a historian or social scientist but I do know from my studies that Germany was feeling humiliated after their defeat in World War I and that they saw a chance to retain their dignity upon hearing of Hitler's formation of the National Socialist Party (Nazis). It is amazing what people (of any nationality) will do when the times are hard enough. The middle classes were ruined by inflation and there was mass unemployment. The young people had no prospects. All that was needed was a charismatic leader.

Robby

Mary Page has captured the impact of D'Day, what it meant to the folks at home ~ in one paragraph, worth repeating!

"When much was made of the 50th anniversary of D-Day, someone wrote a letter to the editor of THE WASHINGTON POST to ask why everyone was giving so much attention to THIS day when there had been many, many other memorable battles in WWII.

And I wanted to cry out to that person, Oh, it was not the BATTLE that was the thing! It was that we had waited and waited for Years and all of Europe was under Hitler's thumb and we thought the day would Never come that we began to push him Back to Berlin! THAT was the big thing about D-Day. We were On Our Way. "There'll Be A Hot Time In The Town of Berlin, When The Yanks Come Marching In! I Want To Be There, Boy, And Spread Some Joy When They Take Old Berlin!" Our first objective was to free Paris. "The Last Time I Saw Paris, Her Trees Were Dressed For Spring!" It was SUCH a big morale booster here on the Home Front and all over the globe. That was D-Day."

Hitler's domination is over! The war-weary world rejoices! Your comments on this man and then the Columbine tragedy bring up more questions. What was it about the youth of Hitler's Army and the Columbine HS boys that attracted them to seek strong leadership and direction - the "charismatic leader" Robby describes?

Denver D.has stated that we as grandparents need to make sure there is "SOMEONE" at home for our children. Do we need even more than "SOMEONE"? Do the young boys of today need strong male models in their lives?

Tom B. tells us in these introductory pages that the Greatest Generation has been generally an optimistic group, "never giving up on the next generation, during the social and political upheaval of the sixties." He also finds that those of the GG had learned "to accept a future that played out one day at a time."

This question is for those of you Tom B is describing here, the "greatest generation" ~ is this still true today? Do you still have that same confidence in the new generation? Do you still believe in accepting the future "one step at a time? "

yes robbie,baden Powel was one of our heros. as Denver darling said ,may be the families did know. during the war,we as a family would sit round at meal times,and talk about hitler,I always remmeber my father saying in yrs to come people will look on him as another Crist!now I know what he meant.our great hero churhill,not to long ago had people visiting from England,we talked about the war ,and I said churhill saved us.he surprised me by saying churchil was a jew Hater himself we never know really who is who !Ithonk in a way my Father was right .Yes It seems the boys at columbine were in to the Hitler movement.

Joan asks: "Do the young boys of today need strong male models in their lives?" I'd like to piggyback on that question: "Aside from family members, can you give the names of others in our nation today who are strong male models?"

Robby

Reading an article in American Heritage about the D-Day Museum in New Orleans which opens on June 6 of this year. One of the points that Stephen Ambrose(initiator of the museum) makes is that there were many D-Days in WWII and that museum is dedicated to all of them, in Europe and in the Pacific theatre. The D-Days were all climatic and each one meant something important in the ongoing battles of the WWII.

These memories of ice boxes and delivered milk brought many memories to me. And, BettyG, your remembrance of your mother at the sewing machine with pins in her mouth just cracked me up. My mother made everything that I wore and at a treadle machine. She even tried bathing suits which didn't work too well. The newest thing being elastic thread, she thought that she would try one for me. When I spent my first day at the pool in my new suit, it streched all the way down, filled with water, to my knees. Didn't wear that suit again!

Role models are going to be hard to come by in todays world the only place to find any would be in your community. Aside from Colon Powell I can't think of another right now. They want to look up to the the Pro players of the NBA, NFL, or WWWF, etc. the drugies or wife beaters that is what is in the news. None of them play by the rules so how can we tell our children to, hardly any of them are punished for wrong doings years ago you paid dearly for wrongs. If nothing else did that kept you on the straight and narrow, You were never dubed a hero for such actions. Almost all the evils of the world are commonplace now. Our children see this and the adage "actions speak louder than words." Look at the actions of our leaders, they get by with a lot so what are the children to think.

There will be another war when who knows, but the need for power will never go away. According to my friend Hannalore the Neo Nazes are a big part of the German children, she said it gives her an uneasy feeling when she see them when we goes home. Look at all the different gangs here how many of them would do any thing just to have power.

So far we have one male role model:--COLIN POWELL

Robby

Carollee...yes, it is very hard finding good male role models, in today's time. It is unfortunate that many of the sports "hero's" seem to be such bad examples for our youth...as I feel they could be most beneficial to the many that look up to them. Not just because I am from Missouri...but, I feel we have 2 excellent role models in the Sports field. Mark McGwire and Kurt Warner. They both have recognized this adulation of their positions and work constantly "behind the scenes", with many, many underpriveleged children. I'm sure there are others, that I may not have heard of...because I'm not a big sports fan.

Colin Powell...absolutely! I was never so disappointed over anything, when he did not persue presidency, or even Vice Presidency! Also, Norman Schwartzkopf..."Storm'n Norman", or "Bear". He too, I feel, was an excellent role model. (just a thought here, why do I look at military men as being excellent role models??? I don't know...but I think they are!)

Yes, sadly there are too few today that use this to the best advantage. Most that find themselves in the position of being looked up to, seem to be consumed with egotism and "money grabbing", or enjoy the feeling of power they have.

Eddie

Still waiting for my book.

Just a couple of comments. I met a man who was with Patton & told him about a book on tape from General Schwartkopf - it was interesting to us on a long trip. Anyway, he told me that he did't care about Gen. S. at all & I was quite surprised. He talked about Patton being a "real leader". Another man's opinion and he was there.

Also, I don't know how Columbine got into this discussion. Yes, the two young killers were interested in Hitler & a very dark side to them. The parents of one work out of their own home, so, they were around - one parent has a Jewish background. These people did attend church at one time. People who were close friends with these families before the tragedy are still very close and no one has an answer for the question "Why?".

The posts are so interesting. I loved the story about someone asking to look at a hot piece of metal & it was dropped into their hands. Anxious to find my book. Carol

Gladys, you always have such thought provoking comments---in every post. I so enjoy your complex thinking.

Mal, couldn't agree more on the importance of female role models for girls and boys. Boys seem to get an extra heavy dose of social-role instructions as they grow up, so those women whose lives are changing and present enlarged possibilities are good for little boys to see. An aunt who leaves an abusive husband. A female high school principal who values a range of activities for both boys and girls (finds grants and scholarships in things other than just football). A local female judge who perceives a family in trouble, not just a "bad kid." A female police officer who comes to speak to a high school group on following your dream.

Clinton, despite his obvious mistakes, has changed forever our perception of public servant. He has appointed women to the highest offices of government in record numbers, not just a token here and there. Little kids just now growing up don't know how unusual it is that the highest ranking police officer is a woman, or that the U.S. Secretary of State who meets with other country's leaders all over the world is a woman. The changing culture of what it means to be a woman and a man has produced lots and lots of good role models.

Eddie, I would venture a guess that what Colin Powell and Norman Schwartzkopf have in common that make them good role models in your mind is something beyond both being military. They each seemed a departure from old "military" style, each with a broader, more human outlook, leaders by example, not reluctant to show compassion. In my view, each was not afraid to be unique---which is quite an accomplishment in the military. They are two good examples of what I think of as "accessible" men---to their families and to those who worked for them.

I want to underscore Joan's thoughts on this G-generation being optimistic (as T Brokaw suggests). It's old, old stuff for any generation to complain of the next generation that they are "not doing it right." "Why, back in my day....." sounds the complaint. So, Joan asks if this G-generation still feels optimistic. That's close to my wondering what kind of support can this G-generation offer younger generations as they face the standard and not-so-standard upheavals in life. Were there things you learned that make you hopeful about the world?

I can think of examples of men whose lives are as changed and as important for little boys to see as those examples above of women....but the subject was women.

I live in Glen Cove, Long Island and we are fortunate to have a Holocaust Museum which is primarily an education center for school children ofall ages. History of the atrocities of World War 11 are discussed and the children are able to see pictures and truly understand how terrible Hitler was and how horrible the Holocaust was. I wish all young people could understand these facts. Thus we would put an end to skin heads and neo-nazis. All public and parochial schools on L.I are invited to visit this museum.

Betty asks a good question. What can the greatest generation, by Brokaw's definition, teach those that came afterward? What should those my age, and younger, do that we don't already do?

There's nothing wrong with David Price, Mal -- I've just been gone all day. So far the suggested male role models are:--COLIN POWELL
DAVID PRICE
NORMAN SCHWARTZKOPF

Robby

We could try like those that came before us tried to tell us, but did we listen, I think it is just part of human nature to think that was then and this is now. I thought my parents were old fashioned and I am sure they were in some ways as I am, but when it comes to some of the ways of world I had to get older to realize that it was the same for them as for me, some things never change. It is with age that we see things differently. If we can figure out how to bridge that gap maybe then it wouldn't all fall on deaf ears.

I agree with all the choices so far.

Maybe Jackie O. could be one of the women. There is also Eleanor R., Bess T.

My children Baby Boomers, admire and call hero's Harry Truman Billy Graham Eisenhower John Kennedy , ALL the various Astronauts including the Russian ones also.They admire Gorbachov very much and credit him with our peaceful 90's.

They though Dr. King was an excellent role model for all not just Ethnic people. They felt that their father was a strong role model in our home all the years they were growing up.And on TV Jack Custou (The savior of the sea, ,my son called him) then there is Tom Brokaw himself who impresses my kids as an example of a role model. My problem is not getting them to tell me who the role models they have are, but to stop. The main woman they love and think is a role model was Jane Godell and her chimps and they follow all the news of her. They think she had a perfect life of contribution to the world which is their biggest criteria of Role Model. Faith

Faith: Isn't it interesting that some of us are at a loss when asked to name famous people who are role models - so many people we have known through the media have tarnished their own images.

Role models who can never be duplicated in my estimation, are Mother Theresa, Sen. Edward Everitt Dirksen, Carl Sandburg, Erma Bombeck, John Glenn, Arthur Ashe, and Golda Meir is the final one I can think of now. Current politicians I like for their forthrightness are James Trafficant (Democrat from Ohio) and Bob Schaeffer (Republican from Colorado) who do not listen to the polls every time they vote. Carol

Gosh I hope this doesn't come across as sassy or anything because I am humbly sincere - I never heard of David Price and I gather from the posts he must be a congressmen from back east.

I'm thinking for someone to be a role model today they would probably have to enjoy a national spotlight, that the press would probably have to elevate this person for us to even know who the potential role model could be. And then of course we would get the presses interpretation of the persons character which I wonder just how acurate that would be.

There may be many more local possible role models that are not known in other parts of the nation. I know here Nolan Ryan and many of the couches of collage football, basketball and baseball and some professional golfers that live in the area like Tom Kite and Ben Crenshaw are thought to have the character that is considered worthy of being a role model. Of course young and old most everyone respected and thought so highly of the now deceased Tom Landry. I wonder how much young people look to the astronauts as role models, although in our fast moving world their exploits are now passé and I wonder if the bright teenages see 'Mr. Microsoft' Bill Gates as a role model.

I also wonder what the difference is between a role model and hero worship? With that question in my mind I'm wondering just how much any national figure actually can be a model for someone to emulate their character and behavior or are local, more accessable folks the real role models for young people.

Some people actually do see Mr. Gates as a role model. No doubt there are many people in individual lives that become role models be they Public Figures or private and still the influance will be there. What Robby ask wasCan you or your children name a strong male role model today. He did not qualify it as Strong Model to all the TV Audiance. That would mean we Americans would have to agree on one thing....impossible. So I think there is a strong Male Role Model who is not a Politician or a General in the Army. Name some more they are out there. I gotta go to bed. Faith

Living male role models named so far are:--COLIN POWELL

NORMAN SCHWARTZKOPF

REP. DAVID PRICE

REP. JAMES TRAFFICANT

REP. BOB SCHAEFFER

GORBACHOV

COACH NOLAN RYAN

GOLFER TOM KITE

GOLFER BEN CRENSHAW

BILL GATES

TOM BROKAW

A BIG WELCOME, FAITH to our discussion of Tom Brokaw's books and the importance of opening dialogue between the generations. Several wonder if dialog is enough.

Sarah T asks an important question that we will bring up all through this discussion ! "What can we do" ~ to pass on the values and life lessons that made the greatest generation what it is. Certainly dialogue is key! There are lessons to be found, 'morals' to all the stories you've been sharing.

What more can we DO?
Denver mentions the importance of the daily presence of family members in the upbringing of children ~ that was a big part of how we were brought up. And then, in the absence of a strong parental presence, other role models. Not TV, Sports, Entertainment figures, but those in the life of the child with whom he can communicate. Two-way communication. Perhaps that's what is missing in the lives of many of today's children??? Let's talk about that first, the ordinary people in the life of the child. What are your feelings about the way today's children are growing up? Is the trademark optimism for the future Tom Brokaw describes still the way you view today's children?

And while we are talking about "ordinary people", let's talk about whether the greatest generation is made up of a lot of great figures, "stars" or ordinary people who accomplished great things - as Tom B believes. If that's the case, then what better role models for ones' children? How about it? Who were your role models growing up? In hindsight? Were they people in the public domain or right in your own neighborhood?

Ordinary people find it easier to do extraordinary things when they are under extraordinary leadership. Those people in my generation remember the forceful yet calm voice of Franklin Delano Roosevelt as he spoke to us personally in his weekly radio "fireside chats". He guided us ordidnary people through the fears of the Great Depression and the terrors of World War II. He told us that there was "nothing to fear except fear itself." Churchill with the wonderful command of the Enlgish language that he had told the British people that he had nothing to offer except "blood, toil, tears, and sweat." They rose to his challenge and he spoke of their "finest hour." Hitler, using violent oratory, promised the German people that he would pull them out of their poverty and give them "a Reich of a thousand years."

Ordinary people built a Roman Empire under the Caesars. Ordinary people conquered most of Europe under Charlemagne. Ordinary Southern people under the magnificent leadership of Robert E. Lee offered their lives for their cause. Ordinary Northerners under Ulysses S. Grant made the same offer. At the time of the Armistice, Grant ordered his soldiers to stand at attention as the Southern soldiers filed past in tribute to their extraordiary feats under the extraordinary leadership of Lee. When the war was over, ordinary people struggled to re-unite the nation under the calm guidance of Abraham Lincoln, a most extraordinary man.

Those of us who were in combat remember top platoon leaders and weak lieutenants -- top squad leaders and weak sergeants. And we remember what the ordinary GI did or did not do under such leadership. We might ask ourselves -- What if the top leaders of that time had not been Roosevelt or Churchill or Hitler? Would the same ordinary people have had the same results?

Is the current generation less great or more great than my generation -- or is it merely composed of the same kind of ordinary people as my generation and who are "waiting" for extraordinary leadership?

Robby

This message and poem were posted in the Poets Press in the Writing, Language and Word Play folder by Vivienne Ledlie, (Crystal), ledlielv@eis.net.au. Since it has to do with World War II, I am posting it here for you to read. I have written to Vivienne and told her it is here.

"Next Tuesday in Australia we celebrate ANZAC (Australia and New Zealand Army Corps) Day. This was originally to honour those who fought in the Gallipoli campaign during WWI (maybe you already know this anyway!) and has now incorporated those veterens of WWII, Korea, Vietnam etc. One of the themes for our poets group this month was Anzac Day, so thought I would post it here. My father served in Papua New Guinea and other Pacific Islands during WWII and there is a war cemetery at Bomana near Port Moresby where I attended a dawn service one Anzac Day while I was working in that country; it was a very moving experience. Sorry for this long lead-up!!

"DAWN SERVICE AT BOMANA 1972

Bomana's headstones stood erect where fallen soldiers lay;
Here black and white had gathered on another Anzac Day.
The Last Post's haunting notes proclaimed a new day had begun;
We stood, heads bowed, and thought of those who'd fought and died and won.

I focused on my father; he'd served here in P.N.G.
But rarely would he speak of this experience with me.
And when he did his stories were fictitiously detailed:
Absorbed by his heroic feats, my youthful mind regaled.

'Just feel that bullet in my leg, it's there for ever more;
But I shot through those hostile ranks, that's how I won the war.
No one was left to help me out, I did it on my own;
My medals? They're in Canberra, but only just on loan.'

Now I've grown up and he's passed on; the truth will not come forth
Detailing his war service in the islands to the north.
No doubt the silly stories, though set forth to entertain,
Helped cloud depressing memories etched deeply on his brain."

Vivienne Ledlie
All rights reserved
© 2000

I disagree with the whole list of persons above as "role models." Those listed may very well be heroes, persons of great achievement, and worthy of our respect, but they cannot be role models.

Role models can only be persons we interact with face to face, family, friends, teachers, and others we know and deal with personally. The concept of role model comes out of what the sociologists used to call "primary groups," those people in our families, our closest friends, and most intimate associates who affect our day to day beliefs, attitudes, and activities. Role models show us how to live and act; heroes inspire us to want greater achievements. I think there is an important difference here.

So, let's try for a little more precision in our discussions. A good place to begin is to distinguish between role models and heroes.

Maybe we have heroes who are well known(the above list) but our male role models are our fathers, grandfathers, uncles. My grandfather worked for the B&O Railroad until he moved his family to Illinois(the railroad roundhouse was moved there by the company and he and his father, FIL plus 6 brothers all worked for the RR). In Rankin,IL, he started a small mercantile store and built a new home for his young wife. This would be in 1912. After the birth of two more children, convinced by his wife that the schools were not good enough, he sold the store and bought a cleaners with his SIL in Indianapolis in 1918. That year of the FLU, he came close to losing my grandmother and my mother. They were both close to death from the flu and my mother contracted asthma which never left her from that illness. There were some savings in the bank from the sale of the cleaners in '29 and as they tried to decide what to do next when the crash occurred.They started over but my grandfather was in a terrible auto wreck and lost the use of his hands. He exercised them by squeezing a small rubber ball over and over for a year. Once he got his hands back to use, he applied for a job with a carpenter as his assistant. He worked for him until 1940 when he signed on with Link Belt for training on the production line of war products. He worked for that company until 1954 when he retired at the great age of 79. He lived until 1965. Never did he complain about his life and the things that happened to him. He just kept treading on, believing in his God and in his country. Of all the men that were role models to me, this man was the GREATEST! He was a brilliant philosopher, read constantly when he could and enjoyed his family a great deal. How he would have loved this discussion!

Who in the 20th Century can we identify as persons speaking with genuine personal moral authority. Now I don't mean people who speak with an organization, nation, religion, or any other system behind them and directing their thoughts, but individuals whose own character and strengh entitle them to be heard. This criterion would rule out the Pope, most political leaders, most military types, and leave us with . . . whom?

I raise the question, for it seems to me that what is missing in our leaders in all fields is not courage, knowledge, or even manipulative skill, but devotion to searching out and clinging to the parts of their roles that are of lasting value.

Unfortunately, on the world scene now nobody seems to be doing that. Much of the blame falls on us, I fear. Instead of holding our social, cultural, and political leaders to high standards of achievement, we value celebrity over character and lifestyle over accomplishment. Not suprisingly, one result of this superficial attitude is that we get the leaders we deserve.

Who stands out in this century as leaders, political, artistic, moral, social, whatever, as possessing the personal qualities that allow them to speak with authority because of who they are and what they stand for? For starters, I would nominate Gandhi, although he may have too much political and religious baggage to satisfy the criterion above; I would certainly nominate Alexandra Solzenitzen(sp), and Albert Einstein. But, I think I will stop here, and see what other people think. I suspect that the list, even if complete, will be short.

I agree,role models are after all people we are closest to. when I was younger!much much younger,I had an uncle,who was the youngest of the family.He was always doing .buetiful art work models of things he made me a baby bed for my dolls.He took me walks explained the trees and plants,above all he was fun.he was always looking for something,trying to go that one step further.he and a friend decided one easter sunday,to go ans search in a disused copper mine.no modern ways of illumination,just candles and flash lights. rhey didnt come home that night ,after a search was made,it was decided ,they wernt there. After a long nine months for us all ,some boy scouts were out near there,and came across a top opening to the mine.It was only a few yards in,they came across the bodies wrapped in one anothers arms. that was their goal it seems to get to this other opening .they ran out of light ,and were afraid to move.he almost got there,hope this somehow fits in ,the impression it made on my life is still with me. gladys

I too agree with JerryJ about the difference between role models and heroes.

For my generation, the heroes would be Dr. King, Cesar Chavez, Nelson Mandela, Harvey Milk, Pres. Kennedy, Bobby Kennedy and even Jimmy Carter. Jane Goodall. I was raised to adore FDR.

Role models? I can only think of people like my father. No famous people. Although Janet Reno inspires me because she is an accomplished woman who also now has a significant disability.

The consensus here is that role models are those who are cloest to us. Jerryj believes that "what is missing in our leaders in all fields is devotion to searching out and clinging to the parts of their roles that are of lasting value." The one living person he nominates is Solzenitzen. Of the three he mentioned, living or dead, none were American.

What, then, is needed to make a great generation.

I would like to add one more role model to the above list:

Joe Demagio

Not only was he a geat athelete, but he was also a true gentleman both on the field and off. Even after he retired from base ball, he contiuned to display his "yankee clipper" attitude toward life. It is too bad that the young generation know so little about him. He took his place in the spotlight seriously and tried to display a good example in all he did.

I was told that the New York Yankee base ball players of his day was under contract to wear business suits when ever apearing in public. This ment wearing suits in restraunts, theaters, airports,etc... even when the club was on the road away from home.

Maybe some of you New York folks could tell me if this is true.

What is needed to make a great generation, Robby...? In my opinion, the older people in each generation...to be willing to impart their knowlege, where they can, and get back the respect of each other, as human beings. Tall order? Yes, but I do believe the answer lies with us. Since most of today's world seems steeped in acronyms, we could be the... A.G.E.D (Alliance for Generations Educational Development) hahaha! My humor is not always understood, (nor even liked), but it helps me deal with things that I feel frustrated trying to explain.

Jerryj...I really agree with you. You have an excellent way of explaining things. You also, Gladys...your stories and memories are really moving. I am learning and "gleaning" from all the great posts here. This is so enjoyable. Still waiting for my book...hope to receive it soon. Meantime...Joan, you and Robby are doing a wonderful job with directing this discussion and "throwing" out just the right guiding questions to keep it going.

Eddie

Eddie:

I love that!! A.G.E.D.

You say that what is needed to make a great generation is, if I understand you correctly, for the older people to impart their knowledge and get back their respect for each other. But what about all those youth on the battlefields who made up what Brokaw described as the Greatest Generation?

Thank you for your compliment to Joan and me but I can't overemphasize that most of the work by Joan is behind the scenes. She brought the Discussion Group into existence in the first place, she had an awful lot to do with making this site a colorful attractive one, and she is the one who is in constant communication with the "powers that be." She is also the person who reads the book ahead of the rest of us and creates the questions above. I'm just the blabbermouth!!

Robby

Robby...the young people on the battlefield, received their knowledge and ethics from the older people of their era. During that time, there was still respect and awe of our adults and country. Again...the FAMILY being the primary basis guiding our actions, beliefs and behaviors. This seems to be what we have lost, through the years, and what we must regain.

Eddie

ROBBY...those youths on the battlefields that make up Tom's Greatest Generation are now the older people! And if you add those of us who stayed at home during the war there should be plenty of us still alive who can try hard to help the younger generations realize that there is a better way to live, one that is easier in the long run, and happier. And, to quote an email I received recently, maybe what we need are "mean Moms"! The ones who let us get away with nothin'!

Love...Katie

And so, Eddie, if I get it -- it is important in making a generation great that the "young people receive their knowledge and ethics from the older people of their era" and to "show respect and awe for their elders and the nation" -- this to be taught within the family.

Katie's suggestion is that we, of the older generation, make efforts to "help the younger generations realize that there is a better way to live."

How do we go about doing this? I was taught many years ago: "What you do speaks so loud I can't hear what you say." What is our first step if we are to take any steps at all?

Robby

The thought just came to me that if my 15 year old grandson knew Robby Iadeluca he would be greatly impressed by what a man nearly 80 years old accomplishes in a day. A practicing clinical psychologist, Robby is one of the most dedicated Discussion Leaders in SeniorNet I know, and has many other activities outside his practice, too. This is going to be a topic of conversation at the dinner table tomorrow when my grandson is here to spend the week.

Mal

Yes, Eddie, I agree that the big job for older persons is to pass on to younger generations their hard earned knowledge and wisdom. You ask how to do it. I don't have the answer either; it is not a simple task to which there is a simple answer.

Consider this: The rate of change in technology, the ways and kinds of things we do, changes in the occupational and economic structures with which we have to deal, are coming so rapidly that none of us can keep up. Yet, a parent has to provide their offspring with the skills to function 70+ years down the road regardless of how that world may differ. This is a tall order and I don't think anybody knows how to handle it.

One key which upcoming generations must grasp is the absolute necessity of flexibility. I don't mean situational ethics, but the ability to learn new skills and adjust to very different social and political environments. We need to teach the foundations of thinking, how we know what we know, the paradigms and models that structure reality. Why do we see things the way we do? What are the models that society gives us to shape perception? Do these models change and under what circumstances? Start the kids young in becoming concerned with things beyond the quotidian, to look for underlying causes of why things are the way they are and why we do things the way we do. Everything is changing right before our eyes, and if youngsters don't know why they see and act as they do, they won't be able to make the necessary adjustments to continue functioning in a world that will become very different very quickly.

As I said, not the full answer, but a part of each generation has to pass on to those that follow. It is a never-ending process.

Exactly, Malryn! "Walk the walk and talk the talk". That is the best we can do as teachers of our youth. I think our ability to accept change and progress is evidenced in the large amount of older people that have met the challenges of the internet. Many of us have gotten the attention (respect?) of our grandchildren, by not being afraid of tackling this vast opportunity. And...it is through the internet and discussions like this one, that can open the communication barriers between the "Old" and the "New" generation.

Somewhere along the line, we lost the ability to demand respect. I think maybe this may have come from many of us that did struggle and fight to survive our day & time and spent the early part of our children's lives, "protecting" them from what we had to go through. Through the years these early good intentions of making life better for our children...has insidiously eaten at the core of our families. We are more or less responsible for the deterioration of respect, honor, and closeness of family. As for how we do this Robby...I think our first job is in the awareness of what we have done. That may be the hardest job of all! First we have to get their respect....and that has to be earned, not taught. Do you remember when as children, if we got into trouble at school, we were in double trouble when we came home? We were to look upon teachers (or any adult for that matter), with the utmost respect. Where then, through the years, have we evolved to parents that challenge any criticism of our child at school, with a neighbor, or any other outside the home faction? We have been left with very few good teachers. They are underpaid, undersupported and literally work in "battle zones". Consequently, the molders of our children's minds is being done mostly, by underpaid, undereducated, uncaring individuals that cannot hold a job elsewhere. When a child presents problems, Special Education programs are developed and degreed personnel hired to "handle" these problem children. Thus, instead of being made responsible for their behavior, they are "ostrasized" from the group, (and labeled) as "special". We are letting our children of tomorrow down immensely.

Eddie

Mal:

You said it just the way I paid you to say it. Thank you!!

Jerrj suggests that "we teach the foundations of thinking - how we know what we know." He suggests that "we start the kids young in looking for underlying causes - why we do things the way we do."

Eddie suggests as an example "the large amounts of older people who have met the challenges of the Internet and by doing so have gained the respect of our grandchildren." She states that "we have lost the ability to DEMAND respect." (caps mine). She adds that "making life better for our children has insidiously eaten at the core of our families."

A number of months ago in another forum I shared the time I did some shop lifting in my home town and the store owner caught me. I wasn't afraid of what he or the police or any other local authority might do. To this day, almost 70 years later, I can vividly remember what I said: "PLEASE DON'T TELL MY FATHER." He didn't tell and I never shop lifted again.

Robby

Robby, more cucumbers coming my way? When I published an essay by Robby which is appearing in the current issue of my electronic magazine, Sonata magazine for the arts, Robby said he would pay me in cucumbers. Gee, thanks, Robby. You know how much I like them!

Mal

Mal:

I don't know how to thank you enough for that free "publicity." Puts me in a pickle.

Robby

Robby, what a good laugh you just gave me! Thanks!

Mal

During the war years, Pittsburgh, PA was known as the smoky city and rightly so. The smog and smoke from all the blast ovens and other works caused this. I remember it was not at all uncommon to have the street lights lit at high noon in downtown Pittsburgh. And coal dust would seattle every where.

Before I entered the service, I mostly recall the men and women--Rosie The Riveters--waiting on the trolley-cars (gasoline was rationed and too precious to use on driving to work) carrying their lunch bucket going to work in the many mills this city had. These people would wait on the trolleys--we called them street cars-- at all times of the day and night--the mills worked ‘round the clock and the trolley cars ran ‘round the clock. Trolley car coins sold three for a quarter and transfers were free. Only one coin was needed to go to work and another one for coming home.

The people who worked in the war time industry were vitally needed for the war effort. The military depended on them for every thing--guns, ships, etc.... The seamstress was needed for our uniforms and, of course the FARMERS!! for food. The miners for coal. The Postman, God bless him. What would we have done without him? The home front and the battle front. Our rail roads (the Pennsylvania, B&O and the P&L E) were kept busy. The three rivers--Allegheny, Monongahela and the Ohio--were filled with river barges transporting war material We have a holiday on November the 11th. It used to be called Armistice Day. Now it’s called Veterans Day. Maybe it should be called “Americans Day.”

Just one more note. Pittsburgh, PA is no longer the “smoky city.” and the street lights are no longer lit at high-noon. No, the air is just as clear as most other cities--better than some. The mills are just about all gone now. Some small ones stand as a reminder of what used to be. Once in a while you’ll see a river barge, not often. The B&O railroad station was torn down. In its place stands the public safety building. The P & L E station was converted in to the Grand Concurse restraunt--very expensive. And the Pennsylvania station was converted into a large apartment-business office complex the last I heard. The city now is mostly a high-tech medical center and fee for service center. Is it for the best?. Who knows.

Bill H:

An apt description of the home front during a World War - no one without a duty, everyone doing something, activity 24 hours a day. It was common for young men in civvies to be asked by strangers: "Why aren't you in uniform?"

Robby

EDDIE...sorry, but I totally disagree with your "We have been left with very few good teachers. They are underpaid, undersupported and literally work in "battle zones". Consequently, the molders of our children's minds is being done mostly, by underpaid, undereducated, uncaring individuals that cannot hold a job elsewhere". I have no idea what schools are like in your part of the country, but here you'll find nearly all of the teachers are dedicated, intelligent, educated, and loving. They go out of their way to help their students and the results show it. Of course, they are still underpaid, and sometimes undersupported, but most of our parents have a good working relationship with the teachers of their children. As has been said time and again...learning begins in the home! If the parents never read a paper, a magazine, let alone a book, the child will never learn to his highest potential. Never! Good parents demand good teachers...and that's what we have here, I'm proud to say.

Love...Katie

The topic of "reading" has been brought up. Does anyone here see any connection between a great generation and a generation that reads -- or am I stretching it a bit?

Robby

Now then, back to the subject...Maybe I'm showing my age, but I think much of the lack of respect that we are concerned about stems from many of the younger generation never learning any manners. Rudeness is rampant in our land. Eating out can be an exercise in seeing how gross some "diners" can be...chewing with mouths open, elbows all over the table, which usually leads to the the face going to the food rather than the fork with the food being brought UP to the face. And above all, the ubiquitous baseball cap planted firmly on the head all thru the meal. I often see Grandpa, Dad, and Son all with their caps on. Anyone for setting a good example?

My grandchildren are the only quiet talking kids I know, and it's because both their parents are that way. On the other hand, My step-grandkids-to-be...or the youngest one, at least...are so loud it hurts my ears. Literally! I said to David, once, that when we are inside we use our inside voices. His mother said, "That IS his inside voice!" She wasn't kidding, but she does the same thing. Maybe they get it from TV. All the kids on television shout at each other. Wears me out, so I don't watch them.

Whew! Love...Katie

no Robbie ,not streching it one bit ,reading is the root to all learning. Being read to ,also was a wonderful thing ,while learning ,it also brought children into close contact.~`reading at mothers knee`is sadly missing ,gladys

I can't help but think that your parents said the very same things about you when you were kids. Every generation thinks the ones behind just don't measure up - whether they're too loud, don't read enough, aren't good teachers, don't respect their elders, etc. etc.

Can't you see that by holding these attitudes you improve nothing? I just don't understand why things have to be this way. I am here to learn from you - as I have been for more than a year. And yet all I hear is the contempt with which you hold those of my generation and younger.

I adored my grandparents. They were the foundation of my childhood. I still adore my elder relatives. None of them has ever told me I lack respect, have no manners, talk too loud, etc. That's probably why I appreciate them so much - we respect each other. There is no generation gap in my family.

I wish you all would realize that young people are just as hard working, dedicated, smart, respectful etc etc as you were. Their styles may be different, but they are human beings just as you are.

It is around 3 a.m. my time on the Eastern Seaboard and I cannot sleep. I woke up and my mind was filled with thoughts about what had just happened with the Elian Gonzalez situation. But I was not thinking about Elian himself although that is a sad situation in itself.

It led me from one thought to another to another. I thought about this nation being a nation of laws. And that led me to the thought of Lincoln's nation "by the people." And that led me to the thought of blacks during the civil rights movement crying "power to the people." And that led me to the thought that the Federal Government is not a group of bureaucrats in Washington,DC but that the government is the populace itself and that those in Washington are the representatives carrying out "our" laws which "we" create. And that led me to wondering what percentage of the people realize and stop to ponder the beauty and magnificence of this nation. Which led me to asking if this magnificence was being discussed in the homes and and in the schools and in depth.

When I was in my forties, I spent a period of time doing substitute teaching in junior high and high school. Whenever a regular teacher was sick, I would be called in to "use up" a forty minute period. But I am not built like that. If it were a Social Studies class, for example, (we used to call that History) I would follow my usual method of teaching which was to be merely the catalyst, to get everyone to give an opinion, and to get them to discussing and arguing and agreeing or disagreeing. In a short time many of them would be on their feet giving the high school equivalent of oratory. Some of the regular teachers who returned the next day did not always like this because they had been teaching in a rote method out of the book and suddenly they were presented with a class that had come alive and was now wasting the teacher's time because what they were saying was not in the study schedule.

And so, Sarah T, I thought as I lay in bed a half hour ago: "By God, give me a class of the younger generation for a week." I would spend one day on nothing but "brought upon this earth a new nation" and another day on "the proposition that all men (generic) are created equal" and another day on "of the people" and another day on "by the people" and the final day of the week on "for the people." I would not need a book. I was taught from early childhood to think for myself. I might not always be right but I was always thinking.

Sarah T, I don't hold your generation or younger "in contempt" and I don't think others of my generation do so either. I said in another forum many months ago, and I still believe, that it is my generation that failed. We came home from a world that had been destroyed physically and emotionally to a nation that had been strengthened by the war. We looked at today and forgot about tomorrow. We concentrated on getting jobs, making money, buying homes, and giving our children "what we had not received." And in that rush to give them the material things of which we had been deprived, we neglected to give our children (the Baby Boomers) the moral teachings which our parents had given us even during the hardest of times and perhaps because of those times. The war was over and we didn't have time to discuss in detail the Declaration of Independence, the Golden Rule, and those philosophies which were the underpinnings of the nation for which we had just fought. And so how could the Baby Boomers (now parents) teach their children what they themselves had never received? We had won the war and lost the peace.

Yes, I am painting with a broad brush. Thank God, there are many exceptions but I believe that if those of my generation were (and are) a "great generation," it is not because we won a war but because our parents (survivors of World War I) had helped us to survive the years of the Great Depression, had given us strong moral underpinnings, and because we were blessed to have mighty leaders at that time.

There will be many here who disagree with me but NOW I CAN GET SOME SLEEP !!

Robby

Shhhhhhhh, let Robby sleep after that! What an important point he has just made! He deserves to rest.

"The greatest generation wasn't perfect." Got it? The superlative of GREAT, the GREATEST does not mean PERFECT by any means. The "greatest" people make mistakes. They, we are human beings, after all. "To err is human." (Who said that?) What mistakes did they make?

The folks at home and on the front described by Bill are ordinary people who worked together to achieve something "great" - we are not talking about a generation of well-fed, broad-foreheaded rocket scientists, charismatic leaders,etc. - we're talking about the hard-working, never-say-die, ordinary people who found within the strength to endure when the going got tough. Where did this determination to succeed against all odds come from? Is it now being formed within the kid down the street playing war on his video game? That is the generation we are concerned about today, Sarah - NOT YOUR GENERATION! I think "contempt" is too strong a term for what we've heard here.

The problem, the failing of this generation, according to Tom B., is quite the opposite of expressing contempt ~ keeping silent. Not only about war-time experiences, but keeping silent about injustices in the post-war years - an insular attitude seems to have developed as individual lives were rebuilt, compared to the great joint-effort of the war years. Did you feel that? Is that the "excitement" that seemed to be missing after the great sense of togetherness that developed during the war?

And now Robby brings up another failure, due to this preoccupation, even more serious. We've got a lot to own up to today! It was easier basking in "greatness", wasn't it?

Celebrate this JOYful day, everyone!

Mal, we're still waiting for more of the books to arrive and will continue to cover the broad points T.Brokaw makes in the introductions to both books this week. We'll start the discussion of individuals - Tom Broderick, etc. next Monday, and see what memories these stories bring back...

Enjoy your day!

Maybe we have Heroes who are well known(the above list) but our Male Role Models are our fathers, grandfathers, uncles. My grandfather worked for the B&O Railroad until he moved his family to Illinois(the railroad roundhouse was moved there by the company and he and his father, FIL plus 6 brothers all worked for the RR). In Rankin,IL, he started a small mercantile store and built a new home for his young wife. This would be in 1912. After the birth of two more children, convinced by his wife that the schools were not good enough, he sold the store and bought a cleaners with his SIL in Indianapolis in 1918. That was the year of the FLU epidemic, he almost lost my grandmother and my mother. They were both close to death from the flu and my mother contracted asthma which never left her from that illness. There were some savings in the bank from the sale of the cleaners in '29 and as they tried to decide what to do next, the '29 stock market crash occurred and they lost everything.They had to start all over but then my grandfather was in a terrible auto wreck where he lost the use of his hands. But he exercised them by squeezing a small rubber ball over and over for a year and was able to recover the use of them. Once he got the use of his hands back, he applied for a job as an assistant to a carpenter. He worked for him until 1940 when he signed on with the Link Belt company for training on the production line of war products. He worked for that company until 1954 when he retired at the age of 80. He died when my youngest was 8 months old in 1965. Never did he complain about his life and the things that happened to him. He just kept treading on, believing in his God and in his country.

He spent a great deal of time with me, fixing everything I broke and just being gentle and kind to me. When I took the bus after school to his home, he was waiting there for me at the bus stop every time. Not necessary but thoughful. When I was older and married, he was always there with advice gently offered. He is one of the many reasons that I love baseball as he did, too. Of all the men that were role models to me, this man was the GREATEST! He was a brilliant philosopher, read constantly and enjoyed his family a great deal. How he would have loved this discussion!

Well, I'm finally up and about after waking up at 8 a.m. That's the latest I've gotten up in a long long time. But I had to get that out of my system and now I'm lurking to hear the thoughts of others on this lovely day. There have been Easters when I've been alone but today I will be having a nice Easter dinner at my daughter's house.

Peace to everyone!!

Robby

Robby, before you get off here, click on the cat banner below. What a hoot!! Haven't laughed out loud at a banner ever! And the site is fun also. Have a Happy Easter at your daughter's. We are planning a quiet dinner here as I had company for four days this week and expect somemore on Wednesday so am taking this day for rest.

Ann:

Our minds run in similar channels. As a matter of fact, I had also laughed at that banner and had to click to see what the site was. Although I own a cat I am not a "cat person" and did not subscribe to the site. But the banner was a "hoot!" When I am not taking the proper action to please my cat, she makes a face like that.

Do you suppose we could get a similar face for the Greatest Generation?

Robby

Good morning, and a Happy Easter. Why labels/titles (e.g. Greatest")? Were our achievements/failures really any more significant than those of, say, the ancient Romans or, more recently, the Industrial Revolution? Can we not just be satisfied to reflect on our past, present and future, without muddying the waters with "Greatest?" It's provocative (perhaps that's the idea?) presumptive, and so unnecessary - it speaks to ego.

Sigh, I wish Tom had included a question mark in his book title

One of the big differences I see between late 20th and early 21st Century culture and the past is the tendency we now exhibit toward fragmentation. Not only has our culture splintered into discrete special interest groups, race, sex, political, gun control, abortion, you name it, each pushing its own agenda over everybody else's. We might call this fragmentation at the external, or formal level. At the internal, or informal level, we have also become fragmented. In considering the younger generation, I see this separation particularly, most notably in the separation we find between home and school and other institutions, such as church and community, which impinge upon youth. Too, too often what a child studies and learns at school is never an item of discussion or consideration at home. Parents do their thing in isolation from what their children are learning at school. I remember a few years ago a newphew wanting to talk about what he was learning about the Balkans in school. He called me, hundreds of miles away, because I was the only member of his family who might be willing to talk to him about such things. Incidentally, there are no books in his home, no one reads or discusses current events in the nation or community.

Math, science, history, art are not just things to be done at school; they are the units of real life, and ought to be as much of a part of home activities and discussion as washing one's face, doing chores, or playing ball. Don't separate school and home, keep knowledge of life and parental relationships connected, talk with your child at home about the things he studies at school. The child should know that his parents are involved in the same thoughts and activities as he is, that he is preparing to enter the same world in which they live. Keep learning and home together so that as a child grows into a world he becomes a functioning adult fulfilling adult obligations, not some isolated, alienated entity unable to provide a good life for himself and becoming frustrated. This is when young people begin to turn on society, withdraw, drop out, take up drugs, and drift.

Well, I'll ease up a moment.

Jerryj sees the earlier generations (labeled greatest or not) as ones in which the school and home were integrated. He, also, as with earlier posters is concerned about the current-day lack of reading at home of serious topics and describes the present-day generation as isolated and alienated.

Is it that the former ordinary citizens were "great" because they were related to each other in one way or another? Are present-day citizens "less great" because they follow that well-known expression "do your own thing?"

How does one become a "functioning adult fulfilling adult obligations?"

Robby

Robby, so sorry you were uncomfortable and could not sleep, but so happy with the thoughts you expressed.

I, too, am aware that we ourselves are our government. It always seems easier for some persons to complain and condemn "the, they and them", rather than to stand up with some constructive ideas.

And the media does not find a story in all of the good results of government. The only story is in those few protesting it.

JerryJ, your sagacious words are a blessing to read.

Having a grey but happy day at a daughter's home on the water in Maryland. My son due to arrive any moment to join us. Fully expect the sun to burst through the clouds as he pulls into the driveway.

Joy! May you all experience heaps of the same.

Are we trying to find complicated answers to what makes a generation great? Could the answer be: sit around the table, eat together, discuss serious topics together, sing together, laugh together, and share?

Robby

A very happy Easter to all

Bill H

I can't have much faith in the idea of a "smoking gun." Few things have a single cause or a single cure. Life is complex (and getting more so) and interrelated. Sitting around the dinner table discussing art, science, and literature are not simple activities. A whole host of assumptions, values, and attitudes go into making this seemingly simple activity possible.

Now, I don't want to make things more complex than they are, but an organic conceptual model is the only one that makes sense to me when viewing cultural and family life. It's all a whole, made up of many parts, to be sure, but connected and hopefully forming a cohesive whole. When this cohesion breaks down, we have fragmentation at either the cultural (external) level or at the interpersonal (internal)level. (I'm deliberately throwing in these terms "external" and "internal" to help solidify the two different levels of cohesion that I'm trying to discuss, cohesion between social groups and cohesion within social groups.) My concern is that the fragmentation that now dominates our society (external) has begun to penetrate interpersonal relations (internal), with particularly devastating effects on those areas most important to our well-being, the family, school, church, community, work, and friends. Some of you may remember Charles Horton Cooley's concept of primary groups. We mustn't let these connections (and that's what groups really are) be destroyed.

So, what's the purpose of all this palaver about cohesion and fragmentation? Well, I think one of ideas Brokaw documents is the high level of integration in American society during the earlier part of the 20th Century. A sense of belongedness, of connectedness, was one of the traits most frequently identified in Brokaw's profiles.

Is it too late to get on the SeniorNetters list here? I was born in 1923, and certainly consider myself of this great generation! It's a strange thing, though. With all the talk of hardship, hard work, doing without, worry about jobs and finances, with all of that, my memories of growing up during those Depression years are extremely happy ones. As my brother and i reminisced one day, "We didn't have much, but we sure had fun with what we did have!"

Lorrie

So many people are moving in the direction some of you are wishing for----feeling more connected to families, even feeling more connected to the natural abundance of the earth and wanting to preserve it. Many have left behind the myopic '80's and are searching for ways to lead simpler, more connected lives.

Feeling connected was an indirect product of a world war. Pulling together in time of need. I think you're right, that some of that connection (between school and home as Jerry writes, or in lukewarm appreciation of this county's freedoms as Robby writes) has been lost. In addition, as some have mentioned before, part of our rush to have technology connect us has produced, ironically, more distance.

Even though I have a similar gut reaction as Sarah and Mal to those who worry about children's manners or more serious infractions of "today's youth," I also at times have worried just like Katie about the noise level---of everything. That includes the noise of constant accumulation of bigger, better, faster. Commercials of just one night of television or ads in just one magazine state my case.

Also, it was my grandmother, who embodies family love and who supplied us life's lessons, who was delighted when I quit smoking----not because she worried for my health, but because it would "look better." Smoking had made me less than a lady. So, I have to see her in her own generation's context----focused on family, yes, but living during a time when man was "head of his family" and women's lives were very scripted. In other words, as Joan writes, each generation has pluses and minuses and is, first of all, human. Human, Robby, even in the hard work to make things better for children.

There is a very forgiving ebb and flow to generational changes. Even individual changes. I certainly wouldn't want to be summed up by my personal priorities of 20 years ago. And I wouldn't want to sum up my mother in that way, either. She, as a silent woman, found her voice, and I know that I had a small part in that. So, these generational influences can go in either direction.

I wouldn't wish insomnia on anyone, but see what a wonderful discussion you inspired, Robby?

Malyrn, your point is well made that there is a degree of tolerance and ethnic understanding that was missing in much of America earlier in the century. Those were in some ways simpler times, where race and country of origin were the primary fragmenters. Unfortunately, a lot of this kind of framentation still exists. But, what we are seeing now is, I think, more functional and ideological fragmentation, and hence more insidious. It's hard to get to. Parents in conflict with the schools' efforts to socialize children are in a conflictual relationship with one institution of society, whereas Blacks or Italians feeling discriminated against feel alienated from all of society. This is the "external" alienation that I referred to. What I really complained about is that alienation at societal level is permeating internal groups, e.g., Italians beginning to be alienated from other Italians, Blacks from other Blacks, in favor pursuit of purely personal and selfish goals.

Let's hope we hear from other people on this. Right now I want to go back and revisit a statement I made in the previous posting.

In the last sentence of the second paragraph I said that we "mustn't let these connections . . . be destroyed." I misspoke there. The lament of Brokaw, and many posters here, is that the organic conception of society that we all know and love so well, and that undergirds all that he says and all that posters here say, is in fact breaking down as a descriptive tool for understanding our world. Saying that our culture is an interconnection of individuals and groups no longer describes our world. Our culture is changing, we are changing, and both will continue to change, and there's not a thing we can do about it. If the organic model no longer fits as well as it once did, we have to find another way of describing our world. Lamenting the past, a golden age of long ago, may be a motif dominating our thoughts, but the fact is, it gets us nowhere. At best, efforts such Brokaw's document changes taking place or that have already occurred. They help us understand where we come from and point up the place where change has already occurred. That is not enough. We cannot turn back the the hands of time to a world where we felt more comfortable; rather, it is up to us to look forward to life in the new world taking shape before us, understand it, and make the best of it as it really is. There is no reason to believe that a world with less social cohesion is any worse than any other; it will just be different. In fact, even as we post our messages here, we participate in and further a social environment fragmenting to the individual level.

Mal---excellent point.

Jerry, I want to agree with you and argue with you at the same time. Ambivalence based on signs of hope (we're talking, right?) and evidence of sweeping changes (we're "talking" by computer).

So many with the knowledge, intelligence and desire to change things but lack the courage to do so.

I am certain that there are people in every country who can see the need for change but lack the courage to bring about a change. Many must act alone and it is a lonely world when one is bucking the system without visible support.

I am sure there were those in Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy and Communist Russia who could see the disaster awaiting their country from the course which they were on. All of us who saw the error of the Vietnam War(?) did not have the courage to demand a change of course.

Today we are still meddling in the internal affairs of others, both countries and individuals, by way of our government bureaucracy. This Cuban confrontation should have been ended long ago, at least when the Cold War ended (or is it over?). It is to our shame that we are using a little boy as a political weapon against a two-bit dictator and depriving a father of his son.

I look back at my days in the halls of learning and realize those times which I lacked the courage to voice my support for a different course of action.

Has our great generation grown more courageous with age?

Eddie and Robby,

On the whole I agree with you about "respect" for an older generation, however, I am having a little difficulty with the term "demand". I don't think anyone of any age, position, or social standing can demand respect. I think a person can merit respect because they have earned it. Do you think that in some way our generation, after the war and when economic times were better, became more interested in the material side of life than in nurturing the family? Many returning veterans went back to school which consumed a lot of their time and also, many were working at jobs at the same time just to make ends meet. After the education was done so many of us gave vast amounts of time to starting a career and getting ahead. I truly wonder if the seeds for the breakdown of the family unit actually started back then.

Also, the age of the mobile family was formed in the post war years. In my own family of 4 siblings not one of us stayed in the same town where we were raised and in turn the same thing has happened with our two sons and grandsons. The wisdom of life and the earned respect is difficult to pass on to children and grandchildren who never really know the older generation.

Phyll

The importance of CONNECTEDNESS as we examine "greatness" and relationships in certain generations:--

Some of that original connectedness has been lost, according to Betty. Jerryj reminds us that a culture of individuals and groups no longer describes our world. The age of the mobile family, Phyll believes, was formed in the post-war years and it is difficult to pass on wisdom to children and grandchildren who never really know the older generation. Mal looks forward but does not see the connection of all the parts of the world as yet being made.

Was there a strong "connectedness" between individuals and groups in the pre-World War II years that helped to make that generation "great?" And is that connectedness disappearing?

Robby

I think so robbie familys seem to have grown apart not just by miles when I was in NM,I called my mother once a month ,it being very expensive ,and wrote every week.We have Email,all kinds of communication,but hear from my son in England,about once a year. it seems the easier it gets never enough time.at my age in my day we would be catered to and ~~respected`.not saying they dont love me,but they refer to me as `Cyber Granny`with a grin of course.I guess a lot is our own fault ,trying to keep up with them.fun though.gladys

Malryn, obviously posting message is a way of communicating. What I was driving at is that working(?) at a computer is a solitary activity. When I'm posting I'm writing not to a specific individual whom I can see, but just putting down ideas, expressing feelings, or describing something without any feedback from another person. In a real conversation both parties constantly feedback to the other in many nonverbal ways, gesture, facial expressions, movements, etc. This is all missing in a computer posting making this form of communication less complete than face to face interaction.

More importantly what I was getting at in seeing computers as divisive rather than integrative is that in using a computer we are pulled away from other people. For example, in my neighborhood we used to have children playing pickup games of street hockey, ball, or riding their bikes during the afternoon and early evening hours. Nowadays we hardly ever see children playing. They're all indoors on their computers playing electronic games with virtual opponents and virtual partners. Real human interaction is minimized and too frequently these youngster fail to develop people skills that allow them to function effectively in the real world with real people. This is the way computers feed into the isolation and insularity of contemporary society.

Jerryj:

We have a Discussion Group here in the SN on exactly that subject.

Robby

Jerryi,how very true ,sometimes you dont realise until someone points it out.I think kids are taken over ,by something ``so awesome in their words.As regards me ,It would have been a very lonely life all my kids scattered around.I have met dozens of people on here,and feel so at ease with them now .people dont visit like they used to ,Ihave so many friends on here ,and I bring people in who are lonely and show them they are thrilled.gladys

What is the discussion group to which you refer? Would love to hook up with it. Thanks.

Jerryj:

It is listed under SN Index as "Online Communication."

Robby

just received my book so feel qualified to join in the discussion. I has moved so fast that what I wanted to refer to an hour ago no longer seems relevant. There is much I would like to comment on, but rather than a long post I'll tackle one subject at a time.

In communicating the lessons of WWII, while it is true we each bear a personal responsibility, we are not all in a position to do so. I am not as fortunate as those of you who speak proudly of your grandchildren, I don't have any. My only contact with young people today is as a reading tutor. Which brings me to the first point i want to make. I haven't seen any referece to the role of the school in teaching the lessons of not only WWII but of all wars.Someone many posts back told about a Holocaust museum in New York and that schools are invited to bring children there. That is fine but I think the lessons of Hitler, pre-war Germany,national chauvinism and everything related to that era should be a MUST on every middle and high school curriculum.

Were the events that led to the Gulf War discussed in schools? Was the situation in Bosnia examined? Kosovo? Does the curriculum include trade with China (a Communist country) and our ostracism of trade with Cuba (a Communist country)? Are any of these events relevant to a discussion of the seeds that might possibly lead to another war, as some here have suggested is inevitable? These discussions can be enhanced by discussions at home, if you still have children or grandchildren close enough to talk wth, but I contend the primary responsibility belongs to our schools.

So much for now. I am glad that we are discussing issues and not just sharing memories that we have dicussed in other forum. Happy Easter and Happy Passover!

hi Penny,not got my book yet.I thought that sharing memories was the issue!!!We were invited to share our memories,it was very interesting made it more friendly,and gave us an insight to of each other ,if we are going to discus freely in here.Istill think The home is the place to start,letting children know what is going on. mainly by good examples to begin with.

Robby, not exactly. You said I thought some "earlier connectedness" had been lost. Trying not to get too far from our G-generation subject here, I had reduced my thoughts/posts to misleading summaries. Almost everyone agrees that there was a lot of "pulling together in time of need" around the WWII efforts. For those posters who miss that connected feeling, I was acknowledging that, indeed, lots of people yearn for that and must feel that it is missing.

Here's what I think more specifically. There are many parts to a discussion on being connected. Defining the subject or stating the norm is one part. Roles used to be clearer, if not healthier. Children didn't speak out of turn much, but neither did women, or Hispanic, Black or Asian women and men. Or gay people. People with disabilities were more invisible than they are today, if that's possible. So, the norm, the average (who are we talking about) that we often wrangle over is often far less than half the population. Some of the good old days weren't, for more than half of us.

Connections. Women (because they were taught to do it) have always tuned into the needs of family, been the caretakers of emotional needs, physical needs, religious training in the family. They told the family histories, kept the pictures. Who remembered to send the birthday card to dad's aunt Mary? Who could recite the date of next month's dance recital for cousin John? Who knew we were short two vegetable dishes for Sunday's potluck family get-together? Who knows right this minute what closet the "old family album" is in?

Thank goodness more men of today's generation(s) have discovered how satisfying it is to be more intimately involved in children's lives. And thank goodness more women have found voices, careers, expanded interests, choices. (A note: many ethnic women already had voices and have always worked.)

I'm in the same camp as those who believe children benefit from at least one parent being available to them most of the time. But what is the average here, the norm? So many parents don't have a choice---they must work. So, they do the best they can to make ends meet and raise healthy children.

Computer connections. Jerry, good points, maybe wrong group. For some of us---some with disabilities, some with other restrictions---the connections we're making "on line" are not a substitution for something better. Using computers may be our best or only choice. If you'll take this to heart, then I'll go on to say that, in general, I share your concern about the growing distances, the isolation. I can tell you've put a lot of work into this, so a question. Do you see the internet craze as a chicken or egg thing. A product of or cause of? When I got my first computer in 1984, I remember talking about related issues. I remember talking with my brother about our concern that my nephew (junior high?) might not grow to love books as I did if he spent all his time on the computer. Recently, I talked with someone who described his family scattered to their separate rooms---each room with a computer. (I didn't tell him that made me feel old---I'm still worried about too many tv's in a house.)

This subject of being/feeling connected is a broad one. My thoughts on how women's lives have (for centuries) been primarily about their connections to family is just one part of the discussion.

We spent the day with family, at our daughter's house. There were about 20 of us there, kids, grandkids, grandparent's, etc... No egg hunt outside, for the children, as it was raining. The topic of discussion centered mainly around young Elian and his being forcefully taken and given back to his father. How stimulating it was to hear all the dialogue between our family. Everyone voicing their feelings re: this event. What amazed me, was the young children...they were so interested in the "whys" and "wherefores" of our talk, that they immediately chimed in with their questions. Some of them "deusies"! How very happy it made me to hear our sons-in-law, our adult children and everyone...taking this opportunity to answer their questions and explaining to them of our Country's laws, actions, etc...as being something we need to follow and stand behind. Telling them that they had a right to their own feelings, but...not agreeing with laws NEVER gives one a right to disobey them. If you don't agree with different laws, you have a right to set about to change them. I could not get over how interested the children were in this discussion the adults were having...but, am so glad they were interested enough to listen and ask questions.

As far as computers isolating the family, it is just the opposite in our children's families. All of them encourage use of computers...but...it is placed in the family room and the children and parents work together there. It reminds me of how when I was small, how the whole family gathered around the radio. They are allowed to use it for reference work, whenever needed. Games and fun things however, are limited to scheduled times and for no longer than an hour.

There are 3 of our 5 children that have refused TV's, Computers, Stereos, or any Nintendo games being in the child's room. One of my sons-in-law will not allow Nintendo at all! (I have a hard time with this...but, keep my mouth shut!) He contends that there are hundreds of things they can be doing to fill their time. Takes them with him to airport to watch him overhaul someone's plane, or has their boy with him whenever he is working on things in the garage, or has him help with yard work, etc... It really kind of got to me, this last Christmas when he told me if I were going to get the kids cd's for the computer...to please try to go by a list he would give me! This list included only educational programs and encyclopedia cd's. Any game type cd had to have something educational as its' basis. This was really difficult for me, because I feel all kids deserve "fun" stuff at Christmas. But, guess that's his way and I have to respect it. What I don't understand is he never was monitored like this when he was small. His parents saw that he had ALL the fad, fun stuff. So...where did this come from?!?

Well...as ususal...I have gone on and on about nothing in particular! Just meant to tell about the family day and how I enjoyed the fact of all the children being with the adults and discussing such deep things. I'll shut up for awhile now! hahaha!

Eddie

Pearl Harbor defined for once and for all the divisiveness in my family between the isolationist faction and the activist who wanted to go to Spain and fight but were too old, and repeatedly told everyone at the dinner table that you must stop Bully’s where ever they were. My adult male relatives were old men born during the Civil War. They could yell and argue but not be drafted. In our town were many isolationists and we were in and out of their homes too so we kids heard all the loud and hearty arguments that went on.

A lone German family who did not speak English lived close by and it was whispered among the children that he was a spy, this in the early 30’s He moved away.

. A great roar went up when Lindbergh started his America First movement, and there was a speech I heard quoted by my grandfather, which he said” showed the startling ignorance of a square headed German when(Lindbergh) declared there were 3 race’s The American Race, The English Race and The Jewish Race.” I have no idea if this was a true quote or not but it certainly showed my grandfathers feelings. He debunked the America First Movement every chance he got all over California and Nevada.

My father was off in the City getting contracts out near the shipyards around Mare Island for homes to be built. By 1940 and 1941 he was finally sending pretty good money home. He told us when he visited that war was imminent and everyone was getting ready. My mother moved us from Tahoe down to Auburn. This was a small foothill town left over from the gold rush and now a farm center for fruit farmers and a large percentage of the land owned and farmed for many miles between Auburn and Sacramento was owned by Japanese Farmers . My school was more than half Japanese students in 1940. In 1941 when Pearl Harbor stunned the Nation my fellow Japanese students appeared even more stunned and afraid than the rest of the student body. I was not in school as I was married and carrying my first child. By the next year most of those students families were interred for the duration of the war.

There were now no more arguments. Everyone that I knew, even the most adamant isolationists and even the American First- ers were rushing to get into the service. My husband was 19 and he was a Freshman in Mackey School of Mines so he could not join because of his marital status. It changed later of course. My brothers and cousins were advised to finish school and then seek the best service they could and not wait to be drafted.

I remember there were War Profiteers, Black Marketers, Traitors, the usual crooked side of nature reared its ugly head. But there were no more arguments that I heard questioning should we be in the war. Even if we had been gulled by President FDR. We agreed it was the only way and even if it was a conspiracy that got us into the war over the protests of the Isolationist,( often stated up at the collage, ) now that we were at War we would pull together until we won it. Today if a foreign Power attacked the United States with a full blown Military Operation we would have an identical reaction from the Generation who would have to retaliate. My opinion and the opinion of many of my young relatives..

WOW so much to absorb tonight reading all of the nice thoughts that were posted here today.

Robby I am sorry you had to loose sleep to share your thoughts with us. You did such a good job though, maybe you should consider doing this more often!!

Betty, I have to comment on your saying that both parents MUST work to make ends meet, that they don't have any choice. SORRY but I think that MOST couples DO have a choice, and the choice they choose is to be more effluent in their lives at the risk of the stability of their family. It was NOT an easy row to hoe 30 plus years ago either, but it was a choice that could be made in order to be at home with the children. Of course if you have both parents working you can do twice as much as the one that has only one income.....or so they say. I think it is a preference still today. Sadly though, your thought is a very common one Betty.

Jenny

WELCOME TO A SUPER GROUP OF SN'S GREATEST, SUPER NATURAL! We've added your name and look forward to hearing from YOU. We've sort of passed the "greatest" problem and intend to bring that question to Mr. Brokaw himself, but after reading these two books, one thing becomes crystal clear. The man means it, folks! "Greatest" is not 'speaking to ego'; this is not Brokaw's generation to whom he is paying tribute. This title is NOT a gimmick to sell books! He's calling it as he see's it (warts and all):

I think this is the greatest generation any society has ever produced...they love each other, love life, and love their country, and they are not afraid to say just that."

Jenny (DenverDarling),

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree. You wrote that "most couples do have a choice" about being a one or two income family. For a long time, that may have been true, but from some of the best unbiased sources (who have nothing to prove), the numbers are more and more unsettling. Such as a growing number of young military families who qualify for food stamps---taking into account both incomes. There are also some teachers' families in some low-pay states where one of the working parents has a second job. These are not folks with new cars or fancy lives. They're just people with medical bills, or an aging parent that needs help or a son who wants to stay on the basketball team and needs shoes. And to be honest, I was thinking of people much worse off than the ones I listed. People who don't have teaching degrees. People who wonder every month if the gas bill will get paid and worry over how many more months they can get out of 4 bald tires. There is a huge, growing class of near poverty level people who have worked very hard to feed their families but things are not easing up. In all the recent talk of economic boom, those families must feel worse than ever.

Thanks to all of you for spending so much time thinking deeply about this subject and then participating with every ounce of your thoughts and emotions. And the questioning about our own selves and others!! What are the seeds of war? Do we remember the seamy sides of war, eg profiteering, black marketing? Are we teaching this in school and at home to our grandchildren? Just how good were the "good old days?" Do computers isolate or connect? How important is the law?

Are you in agreement with Brokaw's statement that this generation "loves life, loves its country, and love each other?"

Robby

Good morning Betty & Robby , our early birds! You were very, very busy in here all day long yesterday! I've been trying to sort out my conflicted responses to your very thoughtful posts - paying particular attention to the comments of those we will continue to refer to here as the "greatest" - those born before 1930. Would it be easier, or more comfortable to refer to you as the "World War II Generation"? I must say I finished reading all the posts and came out with the sense that the "World War II generation" is a changing bunch, not rooted in the glories of the good old days, with an underlying optimism concerning future generations...

Tom Brokaw, in his introduction to Greatest Generation points out the imperfections" of this generation~

~ they allowed McCarthyism and racism to go unchallenged too long
~ husbands resisted the idea that their wives had more to offer than traditional womens' work
~ many of the veterans initially failed to recognize the differences between their war and the one in Vietnam

Are these failures due to the post war concentration on retraining, rebuilding (and great accomplishment, by the way) that claimed the attention of many fathers of the next generation? And as Robby pointed out yesterday morning - caused a gap in the communication of many of the core values they themselves had grown up with?

Of course we are speaking in generalities now, aren't we? Gladys is missing the individual stories that bring us closer to the truth. I am too. Tom Brokaw will bring us many individual accounts in the pages of these two books. Faith and Mal have such vivid memories of the post-war period. I'm sure many of you do too! What was your family life like immediately following the war.? Were you a parent? A minor? Did both parents raise you? Was there good communication and interraction within your family - with both parents?

Do you believe schools are capable of transmitting basic values today? Within your own family, is it impossible for one parent to support his/her family alone? What of Lorrie's comment, "we didn't have much, but we sure had fun." Is it still possible today for folks to have fun with very little?

Joan:

I, for one, would not want to be considered a part of what is being described as the "World War II" generation. War was certainly a critical point in my life but there was an awful lot more than that in my life - both before the war (my training as a child, Great Depression, etc.) and after the war (education through GI Bill, work, family, etc.). To me "World War II" narrows it down too much.

Robby

Well, then, Robby, we'll continue to refer to you as "the greatest", which you are, I hasten to add!

Interesting thought, Joan and Robby! That because of the vets working so hard to see that their children had better lives than they did, they failed to communicate the values that their parents gave to them, to their children. Strong possibility there!

I, for one, do remember some of the good things that were communicated to me during the 40's. For instance, as I mentioned before, I grew up in a boarding house, grace was said before each meal, and every Sunday, my parents took us to church. When the weather was too much for our 1931 Ford Model A,ie.snow and ice, we would walk. And, they made that fun by Mom and I going one way and my Dad and brother going another, just to see who got there first. After church, on a better day, my dad would drive to the river with a brace and bit and check the ice to see if it was thick enough for us to go skating that afternoon. There were evenings when we visited Lake Sulllivan for the ice skating and the bonfires. During a particularly bad spell one winter, my parents taught us how to play Euchre, just so they had someone to play with. Tee hee!

In the summer, my father helped my brother earn money by letting him park cars in our yard for state fair visitors. One summer, my dad offered our house to a family of five plus a nannie just because the father missed his family and couldn't get into his rented home until fall. So, in a 3 bedroom/1 bath house, we housed this family along with ours(4) plus the nanny for about 6 or 8 weeks. Needless to say, it was a riot! The five kids all slept on the dining room floor with the dog and our parents and the nanny were upstairs. (with the bathrooom). Lucky them!

When my father died in '47, my mother continued to take in roomers plus run our school cafeteria. She also had room for a needy girlfriend of hers. The more I remember of this crazy but fun home, hospitality was the main ingredient at our house. Everyone was welcome!

In reference to the war and rationing, my father took the streetcar to work, just so he could save enough gas stamps to be able to visit relatives on the farms of Indiana over the holidays. My mother worked at the rationing board as a volunteer. We saved money for bonds from our paper routes. We collected old pots and pans, tinfoil and newspapers for the scrap pile at school. We helped to separate donated clothing for destitute people in Europe. No one can beat a good example for teaching the next generation.

You asked if we remembered black marketing, profiteering, etc. during WWII, Robby. I am certain that sort of thing went on probably far more than many of us realized but that activity was on a grander scale than I knew in my immediate environment. What I do remember is "hoarding"---and we all knew the neighbor, the friend, the family member, who was doing it. There are always those few that take care of "ME" first. But for the majority during those years I honestly think they tried to do the best and be the best that they could.

"Be not afraid of greatness: some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them." -William Shakespeare

In those years we had leaders who seemed born to greatness---Churchill?--and leaders who achieve greatness---Truman?--but it seems to me that the rest of us--the boys who went to war, the wives, sweethearts, mothers and fathers who waited for them and all the people who worked and scrimped and saved and donated and did without, are the ones who had greatness thrust upon them. And for the most part they came through in fine style.

Phyll

good morning all .Joan did you mean I was missing writing individual stories !or just missing them.I still havnt got my book. black marketing we certainly came in contact with as we were severly rationed. A friend and I used to have conections ,and got to know a lot of people .I used to teach Ballroom dancingand knew a lot of people.When I worked on Guns during the war.used to spend my time during meal breaks Teaching dancing the tango then I Was rewarded with a ration coupon.the management put a chalk mark round my machine ,no men allowed past here.It was all good hearted fun.we had a works concert every Friday night ,and I used to sing ,cant believe I did it now .Just a bit of the light hearted side .some nights we didnt make it home ,because of Air raids,we sometimes stayed there till the next shift.I remember one night we got half way home and had to take shelter,when it was over ,we walked the rest of the way about eight miles,as we neared home,the sirens sounded again,and they dropped one of the flares that lit up the place like daylight .I think that was the only time I panicked,I ran the rest of the way just a few yards and fell in the door .It was so scary every thing being seen the hospital near us .Luckily they didnt drop any thing there. which was ~~great~`Gladys

In Reno where the University of Nevada’s Mackey School of Mines is located, we found a group of young people all ready to give up their Collage and go off to War. Recruiters swarmed the campus. There were many programs for training officers and these were offered to the students by Army, Navy, and Marines. My husband could not be accepted in any of these programs at the big rush because of his marital status.

My brother was accepted into a program for training Navel Officers and went to Marquette University up on the Great Lakes and graduated there as an Ensign. He was on a ship in the Pacific when the A-Bomb ended the War. We lost one cousin on a ship in the big armada which made toward Australia. Bobby Seymour was lost at sea with all his comrades and was the only family member we lost in the War.

My husband was eventually accepted by the Army Air Corps and was shipped all over the USA and never got any training past Basic. He was stationed at Maxwell field in Alabama when VJ day finally came. I was in Colorado disabled. My daughter was in California. We were united just before Halloween 1945. We moved back to California finally in 1947, established a business and in 1948 bought our first home.

Those years 1941 to 1948 were certainly maturing years not only for me but for the whole United States. We seemed to be a different Society in 1948 than the one I had grown up in. I turned 21 in 1948. Voted for the first time and Harry Truman got my vote We tried to be logical and practical parents. When money was a struggle the children were very young but we involved the kids in economic discussions. We wanted them to learn the lessons we had learned by necessity, and a lot of our dinner table conversation was about money.

As we became more affluent we had a really hard time with allowances. We both grew up in a society that expected kids to earn their own spending money and in the early 50’s we saw our kids doing that by choice, but they wanted to spent on records and cokes and comics rather than give it to their parents for food, as we had done. And of course, we did not need that, so we tried to teach them to save some and spend some on necessities, then some on fun .

We had enough of everything we needed and a lot of luxuries, such as the airplane and the ranch with our horses and cabins and gardens, and we didn’t live there all the time either. We had a large home in the Valley and yet we were trying to raise our children with a depression mentality. Our friends were too. Our children were getting mixed messages everyday as we told them they had to buy their own cloths but when they didn't earn enough to truly cloth themselves of course,we did. We mostly helped them buy their own cars or gave them a car. They say now, they thought we were really stingy .Were we? I think many of we depression kids did this to our Baby Boomers. In the 60’s the Baby Boomers accused parents of being two faced about Money, Sex, and Religion In retrospect we were. This is one big failure the great generation made. Faith

Gladys! Taught the tango! I love it! Guns and the tango! Yes, Gladys, the stories! That's what I meant. We both missed the individual stories from the past wherein lies reality; not the average.

Yesterday you mentioned that you hear from your son maybe once a year. I felt so sad - for you, for me. I'm trying to get used to the fact that our once very close family, is no longer that as the four boys grow up and leave home. My friends tell me it's because they are boys. That girls stay close to their mothers no matter the distance - that girls set the brothers straight early on. Now I wouldn't know anything about girls, but it doesn't make me feel any better about having them so far away (so far they didn't even think of picking up the phone and saying "Happy Easter, Mom!") My husband thinks I'm over-reacting...

I think of myself as a member of the "silent generation", more like my father than like my Boomer siblings. What a difference 5-7 years make! My father was the hard-working quiet man described earlier here. Our post-war situation was rough compared to the period of prosperity all around.

I think all of our stories will be a bit different, but we will find some underlying similarities. My mother died of TB in July, 1945. I was seven. I have three younger brothers and a younger sister. My father was an only child himself and knew virtually nothing about running a household. But he was a man of this greatest generation. He raised us, singlehandedly, one day at a time - the best he could. Unlike Lorrie, we had nothing but we also had no fun - with him! Each day was a new ...challenge. He never spoke to us of values, his childhood - he assumed that the nuns at school would take care of that department.

The one thing he did was make us write - and write and write! There was never a homework assigned essay that made it through inspection on the first try. We got to the point where we didn't even write them in ink, because we knew they'd only have to be done again. We all have good handwriting. But nowhere as fine as his! His mother, my grandmother, had saved all his theme books from when he was a child. Everything was perfect - not even an ink smudge. Remember ink? Remember trying to erase ink with the white ink eraser? I always erased right through the paper and of course, I had to do it all over again! Is it an improvement to have the delete button? Copy and paste?

I taught school a few years ago and during a test, the girls would rummage in their purses looking for the little bottle of white-out to correct errors Amazing!

When I went away to college, my dad wrote to me every week. Once a month he would send me a check for $25 (which lasted about a week) - I knew what he went without to send me that check! I didn't save his letters, but when I married and moved away, he continued to write to me instead of telephone and those letters meant the world to me. I still have the last one he wrote before he died.

How do those letters compare to the emails that fly through our family communications? They don't. His letters were carefully crafted to express what he was feeling at the time. No dashed off, unedited phrases meant to convey information as quickly as possible. It seems that he communicated feelings better in writing than in converstation. Me too.

Do you have any old letters or samples of your own or your parents' handwriting? Letters were more than communications, they were keepsakes. I know I sound as if I'm "wallowing" in sentimentality now, but those letters are also history, as Tom Brokaw mentions in the Introduction. How much letterwriting goes on today? Do you print out and save particularly interesting or moving emails? Is this new way of communication always better than the old? I hear you all speak of the letters that flew back and forth during the war? Did you save any? Do you know where they are today?

Joan .thank you it is hard to believe the little boys who followed you round,and told you they were never going to get married and leave you in fact when very young they were going to marry me and never leave. it is true about girls on the whole.~`A SON IS A SON ,TILL HE TAKES HIM A WIFE~ A DAUGHTERS A DAUGHTER ALL HER LIFE. My husband was a Scotsman,hedeveloped TB when we were in NM,that is why we had to go home.they found a cure then ,but the damage it did to his lungs ,could never be undone. he was sick almost all out married life. he was a tough man he worked till he was 68. his father was a welder in the ship yards worked on both the royal ships,they could take their sons to weld a screw in.that was one of my husbands shining hrs. sad to see those yards now,just a handful of men. gladys

JOAN...I have saved a few letters from my dad that he wrote while in Europe during the war. I have several examples of my mother's handwriting, which was beautiful. When she was in high school, 1914-1919, her penmanship was on display for the whole four years. They had things like that in those days, I guess. I have a thick stack of letters from my sister which she wrote just a few years ago when she was in Poland with the Peace Corps. Best of all, I have 26 birthday cards that my sister and I send back and forth to each other, dating from the early 50s. Some of them are from our childhood, which she had saved. The reason there are so many is because every once in awhile we add a new one...like her favorite to me telling me I'll always be the oldest! Every year I spend a whole evening signing those cards, many with poetry, before I mail them to her, and then a couple of months later she does the same thing. They are like a diary of our lives, and recall everything that has happened to us and our families, from births to divorces to deaths to pets to grandchildren...you name it, it's there! Here is what she wrote one year on one card...
It's measles time on River Road,
My thoughts have gone astray.
So, best of luck to you, dear Sis,
On this, your natal day!
Love, The Churches, 1960.

My best to her went like this...
At this point in time you're 46,
Your candor's much better than Tricky Dick's,
Your tapes are all there, you've stashed no money;
No family impeachment for you, my honey!
Happy birthday, 1973

The reason we started all this? Because my mother and her only sister did it for many years. And it goes on in another direction, too, since my sister's baby girl was born on my birthday and she and I are now sending them back and forth, too...only it's an every other year signing with Janie. Such fun!

Love...Katie

KKKatie, that is great! Not only that you save the letters and cards, but that the tradition continues! Paper letters! Snail mail! How many of you still write letters - to folks who are on line? Every once in a while over the years, I have received mail from folks on SN, and always marvel and the handwriting - well, except for ONE! Won't reveal her name, but it is a riot! I think tonight I'm going to sit right down and right my friend a letter! And tell her to save it. I guess I better write something worthwhile, huh?

I've always loved Ann's boarding house stories. They seem perfect for a weekly TV series (actually I was thinking radio - the past is catching up with me!) Phyll, the ordinary people who rose to the occasion and got the job done, those are the ones I think of as "the greatest"! And the men who built the country back up who are faulted for being focussed elsewhere - they taught as much by the example of hard work for a cause. Many of the values we discussed were taught by example as well as by words, as Ann's father, uncle and grandfather did. I think it's important to remember that! What the greatest did however, was maintain the ostrich position when it came to important issues - such as racial injustice. And you know, this example is communicated to youthful ears and eyes as well...

Mal, I DO remember squeezing the yellow dye in the lard in some sort of bag. That was my job!

I wonder if young people today write "Dear JOhn" emails? I wouldn't be surprised! Did you save any of the pile of letters from Bill? I'm really interested in learning if we SNetters have a stash of old letters somewhere.

Joan, you're right, of course, about the power of the individual story. Witness your example. Averages pale when I read about what those so-carefully handwritten letters from your father meant to you. Lots of familiar bells for me in your story. Three younger brothers and one sister. $5 were mailed to me each week in college. Mother wrote a short page to me 5-6 days out of 7---I knew that most days there would be a letter waiting for me at my p.o. box. Not carefully constructed letters, though. Mother wrote about the pot of beans for supper and the baby's cold is better....someone visited Grandmother...I have to go roll your sister's hair...bye. Just a real-life slice from her day written down to let me know how much she loved me. Her letters have continued to all of us through the years---phone calls too expensive (holdover from tougher times). Our insistance on getting her computer email has been a mixed blessing. Fewer letters for me to save in her own writing. I have boxes of others saved.

Extremely difficult economic times characterizes my entire childhood--during the "post-war boom." One loving parent passed on the care and love she was given in her childhood; the other parent passed on the pain of his. My 3 brothers and sister and I have heard both legacies in our voices to our children. We've talked about it. Periodic upheavals still occur as one or another of us lets go of the silence. The skills of making-do, not complaining, doing the best with what you had----all products of the depression and war years----did not serve my family very well. I hear threads of ambivalence in comments others have posted, also, about "lessons" of those times.

I just this evening received the copy of Brokaw's (second) book. I couldn't finish the first, so I know I won't read this one. Shouldn't have ordered it.

I will be glad to forward it unopened to the first person who sends me a mailing address.

Joan, that is just part of being a guy, for most of them. Every now and then you hear of an exception, but most of them leave it to their wives to think of, pick out, purchase and mail you even something so intimate as a birthday or Mothers' Day card! I know. I did it for BOTH of my husbands! If it had not been for me, their mothers would rarely have heard from them.

Just a fact of life. When my 3 daughters each married, I advised each to have only 2 children (the expense! the time! the room!) and to make them both girls (will be closer to you! you'll understand them, even when they are impossible!) and have them at least 5 years apart (college!)

Well, all 3 had 2 girls. The oldest and the youngest had them exactly 5 years apart each. The middle one had a surprise two and a half years after the first girl. But the surprise was a girl, too, and she had no more! My 3 sons-in-law all look at me and say: "I don't Know about you, Marypage!"

My 4 first cousins and I started a ROUND ROBIN letter years and years ago. One has since died. The 4 of us left still do it. I got THE ROBIN, as we call it, today. My last letter on top, then one from my only male cousin, then one each from the 2 female cousins. We range from 63 to 73 years old. We live in Washington, D.C., Cincinnati, Ohio, Victor, Montana, and Fairfax, Virginia. I receive and write The Robin about 5 or 6 times a year. We relish feeling close. We tell each other EVERYTHING and remember old times as well.

Todays mail brought my book and I will start readingit tonight. Also got a pen with it and my cat loved playing with the shredded paper and box. Thanks for all of it.

I write many letters as I have about 24 pen pals. Didn't know any of them inthe beginning but getting to know them thru the letters. Have met several as I go on my trips and if near them, attempt to meet. We also had circle letters with my family and husbands family until the older members started dying. Both of us are the babies of the family.

I do have one of my mothers letters but Dad died when I was nine years old. I do have a Christmas post card that his mother sent to him as a young man telling of his brothers marraige "to a little German girl named..."

MEMORIES!! MEMORIES!! MEMORIES!! Mal's romantic story in which she remembers the smallest details of what she wore. Katie speaks of penmanship. Reminds me of those composition books which I filled with circles (what was it called - the Palmer method?) My handwriting is not the best but the nurses tells me that of all the doctors' handwriting, mine is the one they can read the easiest. I am older than the other doctors - they didn't have the advantage of spending hours on those circles.

Joan, what a tribute to your father who apparently was in my generation. He raised 3 boys and 2 girls singlehandedly. You are entitled to "wallow in sentimentality." He appears to have had "greatness thrust upon him" as Phyll points out in quoting Shakespeare and came through with flying colors.

Gladys, you taught ballroom dancing!! I still dance occasionally (obviously not as well as you) and in two weeks will be learning the "Tango Waltz." I know how to dance the tango but never heard of the Tango Waltz. Please tell us more about your dancing memories. And the importance of letters -- Betty explains it well when she speaks of letters as "real life slices" such as Mal's "Dear John" letter. Letters could transmit happiness and unhappiness. As for Round Robin letters, perhaps MaryPage could tell us a bit more about that technique.

Faith describes the years 1941 to 1948 in her life as the "maturing years" where "lessons were learned by necessity." Here again "greatness being thrust upon us." She also wonders if that generation with a "depression mentality" was "two-faced about money, sex, and religion." What do the rest of you think concerning that?

Robby

I have been reading all of your interesting messages and intending to post some of my own memories of that time period, but did not take the time to do so. I was born in September 1923, and remember well the depression era, our preparing for war with E-awards being given to factory workers for production efforts, the military draft, D-Day, J-Day, and V-E Day, and the boys finally coming home at the end of 1945. My first husband, who was drafted into the Army, and was sent to England several months before D-Day, from there he had sent to me, a French newspaper. (At that time, I was in defense work at Univis Lens in Dayton, Ohio, grinding binocular lenses.) I did not understand why he had sent the French newspaper to me until the news of D-Day reached our town, then I knew what he was trying to tell me. (He returned home safely in Dec 1945 - we had 32 years of a good marriage and two children - he died of cancer in 1973.)

I have had the first book from the library for several days, and today, I received the second book from SeniorNet and really appreciate it. So, as soon as I have more free time to really get into the books, I will try to add something to this discussion. You people are the "greatest", and I do so enjoy everyone's thoughts and comments.

Just by way of explanation, the care of my (second) husband is my primary concern right now. But, I should be able to join in with you all occasionally.

One family member writes a letter to the others telling all about the last 2 months or so since she (or he) last wrote. This letter is placed at the Bottom of the pile of letters from other family members, the previous letter written by this family member had been on top when THE ROBIN arrived. It is now taken off of the top and either filed by the original writer or destroyed, as they please.

Photos, newspaper or magazine clippings, cartoons, church bulletins, etc., may be paperclipped to the letter or taped to paper which is stapled or clipped to the letter. This way we can each ooh and aah over the latest great grandchild, etc. We see weddings, graduations, you name it. We are There!

All of this stuff is shared, but comes back to us. Once in a while, we send out 4 copies of a snapshot we are really tickled with and want each one to have a "keeper" of.

We put these letters in a letter size file that has the tabs cut off of. On the outside of this file is a notice that says:

This File Contains Circulating Letters Comprised of Family News. It Means a Great Deal to the Group of Grandparents Who Were Once Children Together, But It Has No Value, Financial or Otherwise, To Anyone Else. If You Find It, Please Return It To One of the Addresses Contained Within. Thank You.

This is because we lost THE ROBIN once in the mails.

Inside the file are all of our full names, addresses, and phone numbers.

This file is then placed in a regular, magazine sized manila mailing envelope and I send it to the same cousin every time. That cousin sends to another cousin, she sends to her sister, and she sends it back to me.

That is a Round Robin letter. And it brings SO much happiness, not to mention closeness. Try it! You'll like it!

Mary Koerner:

As you were born in 1923, Joan will undoubtedly be adding you to the list above of Senior Net's Greatest. Thank you for sharing and we are looking forward to hearing more from you.

MaryPage:

Concerning the Round Robin, I'm sure others here will take the approach of the commercial: "Try it, you'll like it."

Robby

MARYPAGE...congratulations on keeping you Robin going and up-to-date! We tried that with my husband's family, of eight, but it went around once and then it stopped. Someone never got around to adding to it and no one else took up the ~~plow~~ pen.

One of my most memorable recollections about the draft is having dinner while listening to the people next door disuss their son's draft status while they were eating their dinner, in their kitchen just across the driveway. Strange things, our memories!

Love...Katie

Robby, you mentioned penmanship and the Palmer Method. You know, they were still teaching that in the 40's. A few years ago, an old school chum of mine teased me about my writing because its so readable. Oh, look at you, a Palmer Method girl, she says. I pointed out to her that I write just like my father and his family. Maybe they learned Palmer Methhod,too, from the nuns.

Joan, glad you like my boarding school stories but my point was that my parents did give a good example of homelife and kindness to others. I was so interested in Mal's? saying she thought the parents in the 50's didn't do such a good job of that. That they gave mixed signals to the children. That's is so true! We were trying to do the right thing but we had more than our parents and grandparents ever had. We let go of the the reins!! as my husband is sooooo fond of saying! The schools didn't back up the parents, the parents didn't back up the teachers and the churches didn't have a clue. They changed also. Confusion abounded! The tripod of parents, school, and church that had supported the next generation for many decades had broken legs! It seemed that the American scene changed a great deal. Maybe having to struggle during the 20's and 30's and 40's was good for the souls of our families? I don't know! Anyway, here we are, trying to figure it out!

My book arrived, the Next Generation, and I hope to enjoy it as much as the first one. Sorry that Jerryj didn't like the books. Nice of him to offer his copy to anyone who might want it.

I love the Round Robin idea and have thought of doing it with emails,too. What a treasure to own! I have many letters from my daughter about her struggles of early marriage. You wouldn't believe them! She and her husband(an old Hippie) were so poor but had such a great sense of humor. The stories that they wrote to us are still here in a box. I intend to give the box to her daughter someday. Wish I had saved all the many letters that I received over the years from my mother, my aunts and my grandmother. My gmother wrote such super letters and I have only saved one, which is a hoot. I envy you ladies who were smart enough to keep all of that memoribillia. Its a priceless treasure! Oh, and I forgot to mention that I received incredible letters each holiday from my father's brother. He was a wonderful letter writer,too.

Ann:

I love your analogy of a tripod (parents, school, church) which now has broken legs. Can they be repaired? Any suggestions here -- perhaps based upon what made the legs strong during the earlier generations?

Robby

Unfortunately, I can't get the original article published in the Washington Post in early April, but the response to the article might be of interest here. Do you agree or disagree with the trend toward the "demise of penmanship" in today's schools?

"If how we speak and how we write are how we define ourselves, then the world is certainly a poorer place if a good hand has joined the ranks of things past, hardly, if ever, to be seen again."

Penmanship in Today's School
Most American educators believe that young children are not ready to do cursive writing until third grade because they lack muscle coordination. But European children learn cursive in first grade. Do they have better muscle control?

My son at age 7 went to second grade in a Swiss school and learned to do cursive quickly; he kept many school notebooks all in cursive.

The Post article pointed out that by the time children start cursive in third grade it is difficult to evoke real interest because they often already are into computer keyboards.

By delaying the introduction of cursive we are depriving our children of an enriching experience. The joy of forming letters for a 6-year-old could even lead to many other skills and fields of knowledge such as painting, drawing, reading and writing music and writing in a foreign language.

Delaying cursive is another example of how schools fail to teach children what they are capable of doing."

The article about "Penmanship in Today"s School" says that "no sane person" would type a love letter and that it is "bad form" to type thank-you letters or letters of condolence. The writer, in my opinion, does not realize that times change and what was insane or bad form in 1950 may not be so in 2050. I can see in the future girls being just as thrilled by e-mail love letters as those hand written. The same goes for thank-you letters and letters of condolence. There was a time not too far distant when it was bad form to mail such letters even if they were hand written. They had to be delivered by hand to the person's house.

As for first drafts being typewritten. I gave up hand writing years ago. I do a considerable amount of creative writing and become impatient with doing it by hand. My hand is too slow for my mind. I am a fast typist and pour it out as I think it. I used to do this on a typewriter and am so pleased now that with a computer I can immediately modify words and phrases as I move along.

I wonder if the writer of that article is from an older generation and has not kept up with us young people.

Robby

Robby---I am backing up just a little to that question about adversity and its role in forming character. I had a conversation with a nineteen year old yesterday afternoon. He is in some trouble and may be expelled as a result. We were talking about character and what it was and how it was formed. I asked him if he thought that adversity of some kind was necessary in the formation of character. His answer: Absolutely!

Ann---I love the tripod metaphor. Did you make it up? May I borrow it?

Maryal

Maryal:

In what way are you "backing up." Exactly what did that 19-year old say?

Robby

Robby---I meant backing up to a topic that was being discussed a while back. I have been too busy to participate much. I am not at liberty to discuss any of the particulars of the nineteen year old's situation. Suffice it to say that he did something wrong, was caught, and has learned a lot about himself and the effects of certain actions. He has been facing adversity for the last three months and thinks that he has definitely benefitted from it even though he may be expelled. There is, he says, about a fifty-fifty chance.

Maryal

I believe in an earlier posting I gave the analogy of the two parts of the rope being tied together and the knot becoming the strongest part. He may end up becoming a person with a stronger character. Isn't this what some of us in the older generation are trying to teach the younger ones or is the only answer letting "life" teach us?

Robby

Robby----I think he is already stronger. And, yes, that's what we are there for. I seem to attract students who want to come in and just talk, generally about something that is bothering them. I have become a good listener. Actions speak louder than words. I think young people pay attention to how older people act in handling difficulty rather than to what older people Say.

Maryal

Maryal:

Do you (and others here) believe the younger generations are paying any attention to the actions of that generation which is being described as "greatest?"

Robby

The tripod with the broken legs is an excellent visual of what happened in the post-war years, as members of the the World War II generation set about rebuilding their lives and providing for their children-and future generations.
Maryal, all of us who know you would describe you as an excellent listener. You know, I think that would be an excellent way to communicate some of these basic values to the young...to listen to them. But first, we have to make ourselves available to them...
About learning to face adversity - I think the first step is "accountability". Is accountability to authority something that has fallen by the wayside?
Our task in the coming weeks of discussion of the individual stories, it seems to me, is to examine the values overlooked in the rebuilding process, decide what would profit the present generation and then try to come up with ways to pass them on - and how to get the attention of the youngest generation! Think of the power of our numbers!

That's the very reason Tom Brokaw published his second book of letters, The Greatest Generation Speaks, ("letters written in firm Palmer method penmanship")- to get the message out, to draw attention to what this "greatest" generation has been so reluctant to discuss in the past. Perhaps we should be thinking of publishing this discussion? (With a good editor perhaps) Are you thinking of questions you'd like to submit to Tom Brokaw? Just include them in a post any time! We are scooping them up as you do that.

Robby, I just finished reading your "Grandpa Goes To School" and thoroughly enjoyed it. It gave me a few chuckles.

Haven't gotten my book yet, been trying to follow along, but time restraints are "restraining" me!!

We just recieved the book today, and a resident here (vet from 101st) has already got a number of chapters under his belt. Looking forward to the book getting passed around, and will be posting soon. Thank you SeniorNet.......

Kevin Moore AD Arbors at St Petersburg

I see a lot have recieved their books!I am dissapointed I havnt.

I used to love to write,for what it was worth,I won a few awards at school,for {as we called it] composition. the award would be a ticket to a local show or something. but it was like recieving an Oscar to me. My Handwriting ws praised,wouldnt know what method it was called in my days it was either good or bad. I was picked to read out stories,because as my teacher said I enriched them.these are things I had forgotten.It may look as if I am boasting!!I am ,I guess,but better than looking back with bitternes I learned a great lesson with starting at the very bottom[ life style]

wise.I think I told you about having to see to ourselves,going to school etc.I had just one sibling a sister eighteen months younger.she was very shy almost surly .I was very protective of her.Years after ,when I was married even,I met my used to be ~`head mistres.she was quite old ,but what a memory.she said ,ah the hadfield girl the eldest you could have gone far you know you were the brilliant one.I went home to tell my husband who had a little smile,and reminded me it wasnt exectly Harvard I went to . it deflated me somewhat,but at least she remembered me.hurry up book please.gladys

Received my book today, however it was not the one I had requested...they must have run out of the 1st one (GG) early, as I was one of the first to request. I received GGSpeaks, the 2nd book. I have just ordered at B&N the first book and hope to get it soon. Until then, I'll just have to follow along with these great posts.

Eddie

The question of the day regarding abondoning responsibility in order to work hard and rebuild is relevent. We really can only speak for our own family and close friends. In my environs we did not neglect the attempt to teach the lessons we had learded.However the old lessons were not applicable to the changing world of the Fifties. So my children learned more from their peers about the fast moving world and when they had their children in the late 60s and 70s they no longer had family dinner time, wifes mostly worked but not always, men were given very confusing roles by babie step feminists. Frankly I believe my children and grandchildren have built a new society and it will prove in the long run to be a great one also. I have high hopes and high regard for the people under 55 today. And I have high EXPEXTATIONS too. Faith

Faith---You just rang a bell for me when you said you had high expectations for this generation, or I guess I should say, these generations, the ones below us. I do too. And I think it is important to have expectations of the young.

Maryal

Hurrah my book arrived - how special I feel - this is great to have recieved this book FREE wow! And in my box was this wonderful pen, not a typical ball point pen but one with a point similar to the points we used to slip onto those long wooden handles and dip into the inkwell. Yes, I was the one with braids and many an inked sketch on the back of my blouse that my mother would soak and soak and finally say to the nuns - who is sitting behind my daughter?

Leaving for my daughter's in SC thursday so I will bring the book along to read while traveling.

I am SOOO glad the books are slowly beginning to arrive, Barb! For those without a book, please don't let that keep you from joining in the discussion! YOU'VE got all those valuable (and entertaining) memories!

We're going to move very slowly through the books too, so don't feel you must cover-to-cover them all at once. They will simply drive the discussion of what you remember and feel about this greatest generation!

WELCOME TO MARY KOERNER and ARBOR! Please make yourself at home with us! We look forward to hearing from you in the days ahead.

The confidence you all are expressing in the coming generation is reassuring. This is the famous optimism about the future, one step at a time, that Tom Brokaw speaks about in his book. Our task then? To make that future even better by speaking up, speaking out, opening the inter-generational dialog that will, hopefully, pass on the best of the greatest kept silent far too long! Keep on. We are really getting someplace here, unearthing some valuable lessons that need to be heard...

ps. Gladys, we mothers of sons have to stick together. Shall we write a book about what it's like when sons leave home?

pps. Mal, I've been meaning to ask, what's a "peplum"?

I have to take a few minutes of everyone's time to tell of a good and encouraging experience we had this past week. Sometimes we older people tend to underestimate the kids of today and I admit that at times I have been guilty of a blanket condemnation of the younger generation in one area or another. Last week we attended Grandparent's Day at Highland School in Warrenton, VA, where our 6 year old and 9 year old grandsons go. (Sorry, Robby, I didn't know until we returned that you live in that lovely little town. Next time I will wave to you.) Anyway, the entire program was centered around a surprizingly patriotic theme. The finale was a rousing rendition, shared by the kids and the audience, of "America, the Beautiful" complete with each child waving a flag with great enthusiasm. I doubt that there was a dry eye anywhere in the audience and we gave those great kids a big standing ovation.

I had truly come to believe that patriotism and pride in our country was a thing of the past. No one flies the American flag anymore, and the 4th of July and Armistice (Veteran's) Day celebrations are very sparsely attended in our community. But, for a while last week, in that auditorium, it came out loud and clear. I felt a real thrill.

Just received my GG Speaks in today's mail. Thanks, Sr.Net.

Phyll

In the chapter in the Greatest Generation titled Leonard "Bud" Lomel, the author wrote that Lomel a First Sergeant was in command of the Ranger platoon because his lieutenant had been reassigned just a few days before the invasion. That was a terrific responsibility to place on Lomel and the others in the platoon. It is my understanding that a museum will be opened soon in New Orleans at the site where the Higgins boats were built to commemorate D-Day. Hope that Bud Lomel will be invited to the ceremonies.

Lots of new folks joining us and participating. We have loads of room for everyone. Come be part of the discussion -- share your thoughts and memories.

Faith P:

Yes, I agree that there is ahead of us a new society which will also be great. Would you, however, expand a bit on your comment that the old lessons were not applicable to the world of the Fifties?

Robby

P.S. Phyll: Send me an e-mail when you are next in wonderful Warrenton and we'll have lunch.

So nice to be back on line!! Last night I was reading in this folder when all of a sudden my machine locked up....only choice was to hit alt.-control-delete to back out! I have done this many times before but this time it was devastating. I could not get back in to outlook express at all. When I would click on it, the hour glass would flash for one second and then go out. My hubby Bob did everything he KNEW to do including deleting O E and reloading it but to no avail. Moral of the story after many hours of work we are back up and running but I have NO past history in O E at all. In one of the e-mail accounts there WERE some old messages from January of this year, but that was all. I am running Microsoft 98. Has anyone else had anything like this happen to them? I would love some feed back if you have.

To the couple of new friends that I have emailed with in this folder I would appreciate it if you would re-send your last messages to me so that I CAN respond to you as I have not been on line for a couple of days and therefore had not responded to your nice messages. Your e-mail addrsses as well as your messages were lost unfortunately. THANK YOU in advance for re-sending them.

Gladys & Joan may I please join your group of the "ASMC" (all sons mothers club)as I can sure relate to your last posts in regard to this subject. ha.

Betty G, I had just read your comment to me about can we agree to disagree request? Most definitely.....everyone has their own stories that make them be able to make a judgement call, so of course we have to be able to disagree at times.

Looking forward to my book arriving, but continuing to enjoy very much the wonderful stories and comments that I read in this folder.

Jenny

Jenny (Denver Darling): What a monicker!! Sorry your book hasn't arrived yet but your thoughts are always welcome.

Robby

JENNY...add me to the ASMC, too, please, but GLADYS doesn't fit! She has a couple of daughters!

I think we could be more careful with our blanket statements. Maybe they don't fly the American flag some places, but I can show you ten within walking distance of my condo. And the patriotism here gets overwhelming at times. It's fairly impossible for shorties like me to enjoy a parade here because of those who stand and cheer every time the flag goes by. Which is fine, except that every marching group has a flag! Maybe they'll let me sit on the curb with the little kids.

I don't know a great many of our younger generation...the teen-age group...but the ones I do know, my grandkids and their friends, are really terrific young people. They are concientious about learning, polite to us old folks...and even to each other...hard workers in many areas, and yet seemingly carefree and fun to be around. There is no way to tell, yet, what kind of 40 yr.olds they will be eventually, but I'm not worried. I think they'll be just fine. Maybe it'll be a case of muddling thru, which is what oftens happens here in America, but I have faith in them.

Love...Katie

Katie,

It was not a "blanket statement", as you put it, but an observation of my personal enviornment. And here, unfortunately, not many fly the American flag. Each area is different, as I am sure you will agree.

Phyll

OK Katie welcome to the club!! ANY MORE of you for the "ASMC"?

Also have to agree with you Katie when you mention all the patriotism in your area. WE just recently had a parade here in Sun City Arizona to celebrate 40 years that our commity has been here. There were over 500 golf carts in the parade decorated as everything from a Safeway shopping cart to military tanks. It was quite a sight to see, but the marvolous thing that I witnessed was that not ONE golf cart passed that didn't have an AMERICAN FLAG on it as well as most of them having state flags as well. There were many bands and honor gurads that passed keeping us on our feet. Being a "shortie" I need to sit on the curb with the children also so that I can see. Could not be caught SITTING when the colors go by could we? Flags are flown in force here in SC everyday with many of them having a spot light on them that stays ON all night long! OH, I am so proud to be an American.

DD

Interesting how some areas "show the flag" more than others. Do you suppose there's some reason for this? What does it reflect? The general age of the people in the area? the percentage of veterans? whether it's near a military post? a particular ethnic group?

What causes people to feel strongly about flying the American flag?

Robby

Oh, PHYLL...I'm sorry! My remark wasn't pointed toward you, necessarily, but I'm seeing lots of "blanket statements", and not all of them are "condemnations". There seem to be many "everyones", "all of thems", and "alwayses", etc. stated here, and we all know of exceptions to every one of them. I think we could use words like "many" or "some of" or even "seems like the majority" and still get our point across.

Once upon a time in some far off forum I shared a phrase that was "taught" me when I was a Boy Scout. If you didn't want to commit yourself as to whether you agreed or disagreed, you said: "I couldn't possibly fail to disagree with you less." By the time the others figured out whether you were on their side or not, you were out the door.

No charge !!

Robby

Oh, Robby, that is just perfect. I am going to put it in my "Things to Remember File".

Phyll

Me too, Phyll...latched on to that one right away! Thanks Robby...and no charge, either...Wow! Knowing me, I would get my tongue tangled up, trying to remember it and come out with something that made no sense at all! LOL...

You're right Katie, and thanks for speaking out regarding "blanket statements". I am very guilty of that I'm afraid. I mean to speak in a general sense, and not encompass "everyone" in what I am describing...but am afraid I don't do it well. I do thank you for the "nudge", to me, when neccesary...as not many are able to do this with such frankness and grace.

Eddie

Katie very surprised thought you had daughters Denver Darling glad to have you in the club. and so glad you got back ,I recieved your email to night thanks. iit is late tonight here ,to post any thing re GG,but Ihope Iget my book soon.nite all .gladys

Yes, Mal and Robby, you can use my "tripod analogy" which I have used since the 60's or early 70's when I spoke out at a high school PTA meeting where the teachers informed us that they didn't think the school needed a dress code. It distracted them to keep that code! I went bananas and out came the "tripod analogy". I still feel that the kids of the 60's and 70's had no strong guidelines and because of that, they are struggling today with their own children. BUUUUUT, from the examples of my own daughter and her hippie husband, I do give them high marks in trying to raise decent young adults. They are doing a terrific job. Because of their "accountability" feelings, they have sent two very nice young adults to college. It ain't easy, McGee!!! Now, we will see what the younger son does with his family of four under 5 yrs. I pray for him and his wife everyday!

As a family, we tried to imbue our children with the life lessons we had learned during the first WW then the Depression, Prohibition, and WWll. Well, some of these lessons were impractical and even totally outmoded. Social customs that we learned as often as not came from the “old Country” and were agrarian in nature. Useful for survival in one era but not necessarily going to be in other eras/ We tried to mold our family by being around the dinner table at one set time every night. Now I knew lots of families where Daddy could not get home on time The Commuter Daddies of the 50s and 60’s where every one PRETENDED we were still living as our parents had.

. An Agrarian mind set still active at the End of the Industrial age.There was deception here.It was not however intentional. It was growth and change.

What we, in the 50’s taught as proper Social Custom to our children after WW11 was outdated even then..A woman's place was no longer just in the home so new customs were needed but they were not in place yet. So I was like a crazy woman when I was raising my family .I was trying to work and live my moms life . I was trying to teach my daughters those old agrarian ways which were outdated when I was born. I made her feel guilty for using a package mix for gosh sake. Our sons had even worse messages about growing up to be a man. Dad wanted a macho man. A fisherman a hunter a fighter if it came down to it . Daughters and Moms were reading feminist literature. Sons were getting very mixed messages from everyone.

. We thought we would be enlightened and teach our children about sexuality. We “had a little talk” and gave them a book called “Growing Up”. There whew that was done...And they still had to learn from their peers. In the 70’s PTA’s were fighting about sex education in school. But once a kid can read he can find everything we hid from him. The deception lay in telling everyone we were open and accepting of our sexuality while we were really very uncomfortable and did not talk openly to our kids.So to teenagers heard about wife swapping and watched cocktail parties in the back yard and then had uptight rigid about sex, parents. We did nothing to make the Baby boomers more aware of their own sexuality. Mr.Kinsey made a stab at it.

There was gross deception in our history books too. My children learned much in their 30’s from their own reading and TV Documentaries what School should have taught. The sad thing is that in changing Social Customs you may throw out the baby with the bath water. Social Custom and Manners may change but hopefully Ethics and Morals won’t and even if the Media is concentrating on the Bath Water,most people will try to continue to nurture the baby. We need new types of psychology to assisting us in the Ethics dilemma I know that statement might stir up a hornets nest.Keeping the rules and taboos alive that are really meanful for survival should be our Goal .I am wondering if any one can see my point that changing roles in society has always been the norm. Catching up to the changes has always been the challenge. This is true as to social custom, social moral codes, and ethics and law. All different forms of taboo which create a livable should I say survivable culture.

The things I am saying are strickly my opinion from the life I lead. Faith

Meant to be here earlier since my three older brothers were part of that generation.

Just reading all the previous posts will take some time I am off to do that ...anna in Virginia

So well put, Faith. Change is the norm. I do see your point and I agree.

If Tom Brokaw's goal is to start a dialogue, that calls for interaction on equal footing. That's not the message that comes across, however, if one group is being encouraged to call up wisdom to impart to the wisdom-less. The premise is faulty and I'm feeling more uncomfortable with this idea.

I've noticed that several who posted comments about children and grandchildren who are leading meaningful, valued lives....well, a lot of those posts are left hanging, as if no one is listening. Does anyone share my delight in the advances for women? Does anyone identify with Mal's multi-generation lively dinner discussions?

In research, even the research question has to pass muster. You could design a study that asks the question, were the concentration camps of WWII built on a hollywood backlot or just computer images? The research design is flawed. T Brokaw implies that there is something about the generations today that need to be fixed. About half the respondents here (more?) are saying, "Not in my family."

The word "greatest"----whoops, here it is, again----goes hand in hand with the assumption (flawed?) that a particular generation has some discovered truths to impart. First, that doesn't promote dialogue. Second, it doesn't exactly fit with what quite a few posts have to say. Even using the word "optimistic" to describe how one views today's generations is first cousin to a put-down. (I want to grin and say, "Well, I'm kinda optimistic about you, too. So there.")

In response to several who lamented the state of our schools, I looked at the U.S. Department of Education website and, specifically, at the Digest of Education Statistics. In 1940, 38% completed high school and 6% completed 4 years of college. 1950, 53% H.S., 8% college. 1960 61% H.S., 11% college. 1970 75% H.S., 11% college. 1980 85% H.S., 23% college......1997 87% H.S. 28% college. The increases for women and minorities were very dramatic. Despite improvements still needed, we've come a very long way since 1940. Is penmanship really an issue?

In my imagination, I do see some things that might be of great interest to talk over. But this framework of hierarchy does not promote feeling connected, does not promote a trusting give and take. Sitting here thinking, I just had a picture of something....that I might not agree with the premise of the book because of my respect for certain people of that generation who would not agree with the book either. Those who have embraced change, as Faith wrote. My mother, for example.

A DOUBLE WELCOME - Annafair & Art! Two more voices, two more trunkloads of memories and insight! Art, D-Day is just around the corner - where were you on June 6, 1944? It was the 40th anniversary of D Day that so moved Tom B. to write these books...

Katie & DenverD, we will write this ASMC book soon! I have yet to come across any "help" books on the subject- when boys grow up and leave home!!!

Katie, I agree with you about blanket statements - blanket thinking! Logic 101! No all, never, always... Let's try to speak from our own experiences and we'll be fine - without the blanket statements. Where there is patriotism and optimism for the future expressed in one part of the country is not the case in in all areas - (consider the growing inner-city ghettos, where (some) kids are growing up with no guidance - hope)

Is it my imagination or is the expression of patriotism on the rise - in many parts of the country? Since the Vietnam wall went up in DC, the presence of the Vets of that war on Veterans Day has increased dramatically here in DC. Seeing those guys, dressed in combat uniforms, marching - heads high - this brings tears...the Rolling Thunder motorcyclists come roaring in - hundreds of them making their presence felt - wearing jackets with "When I die I'll go to heaven - 'cause I've been to hell and back!" But that was a different war. These are the sons & daughters of the "greatest" who had their mettle tested...

Faith, that was a wonderful post - and you certainly make the point -

'changing roles in society has always been the norm!' I think that the point as been demonstrated throughout this discussion - not only have the later generations changed, but our "greatest" have kept up with the changes in so many different ways...and continue to change!!! Look at us here with this new-fangled technology! Adapting and changing, change to survive! And with the change comes the hope for a better future. That's probably the reason we have confidence and optimism for future generations...which leads to Betty's question...

Faith and Betty, you have given us much "grist for the mill." With your permission, I have tried to put some of your items in an outline form so that many of us can examine them in detail and give our thoughts.

FAITH:

1 - Many of life's lessons are outmoded.
2 - Many of life's lessons come from the Old Country.
3 - Prohibiton (we haven't been discussing that here so far).
4 - Many of us have had an agrarian "mind set."
5 - New customs are needed but are not yet in place.
6 - Giving children feeling of guilt on such items as "package mix."
7 - Home sex education has often been a deception.
8 - Need new types of psychology to assist in the ethics dilemma.
9 - Changing roles is the norm; catching up to change is the dilemma.

BETTY:

1 - Mistake to ask one group to impart wisdom to the wisdom-less.
2 - We have not been commenting sufficiently on "good" items such as advances for women.
3- Schools have come a long way.
4 - A framework of hierarchy here does not promote a trusting give and take.

You are all a wonderful group. And to think, we are just starting!!

Robby

Bingo!!! Robby has outlined very clearly the points that Faith made yesterday and Betty has hit upon real questions we need to address before we get beyond the introductory pages!

First of all we all have the right to disagree here - 'as along as we don't become disagreeable while doing it'- as a wise psychologist said to me very recently! I'm going to pleasantly disagree with a few of Betty's conclusions here, because I honestly didn't get the feeling from either the book or the posts that they were the case. (I admit things often get by me, so help me out here if I'm "off")..

~ "if one group is being encouraged to call up wisdom to impart to the wisdom-less" (I don't believe that this was expressed or implied anywhere, but may be wrong...)

~" T Brokaw implies that there is something about the generations today that need to be fixed" - (implies perhaps that generations could stand improvement in some areas? Do we assume that any generation is "perfect"?)
~ "the assumption (flawed?) that a particular generation has some discovered truths to impart." - (is that flawed? thinking - that truths arrived at through experience are worth expression?)

~ "In my imagination, I do see some things that might be of great interest to talk over." Those are exactly the things that we want to talk over, aren't they?
~ But this framework of hierarchy does not promote feeling connected, does not promote a trusting give and take." This is a strong statement and though I find it puzzling in several ways, find it important enough to do something about it NOW

Let's ask the hard questions NOW and all day long! And all through the discussion!
~ Do you believe there are fundamental lessons to be learned from the life experience of the generation that came of age in WWII?

~What is the premise of Tom Brokaw's book?

~ What questions would you ask Tom Brokaw if he were here today?

Robby asked about places that do and others that do not fly the flag and the emotions it brings forth.

My family has always put a flag out on the 4th, and that is about it.

But there have been moments, Oh Yes!, there have been moments in the last few years when suddenly the chest and throat and face were simultaneously full of tears and full of Joy. I give you the ice hockey game with the Russian team. U.S.A.! U.S.A.! And how about the women's soccer game with the Chinese team last summer? Wow! Double Whammy there: the flag AND, hey guys, look at us! Bet you didn't know we could play soccer!

Is there a single one among us here who does not get full eyes when one of ours wins the gold, stands on that highest box, has the AMERICAN flag unfurl behind while the band strikes up The Star Spangled Banner?

I very much doubt it. Patriotism is not all about war. Thanks be!

MaryPage: I'm going to get shot down for this one !!Aren't competitive games a form of "war?"

Robby

Mal:

A most stimulating presentation of "change." I am not surprised at your attitude of flowing with the tide and growing less nervous as I see your regular postings in the discussion group, Seniors View the Future.

Mal says "Much that bothers people now has happened before." Nothing new under the sun?? What do the rest of you think?

Robby

Robby and Mal,

This is such a familiar theme and not just in our lifetime. Over on the Canterbury Tales board we have time and again come to the conclusion that "things" and "times" change but people and their human values do not. I am not sure that I have stated this properly but I think I have found that even in the Middle Ages people dealt with the same basic human problems that we all are apparently dealing with today.

Phyll

Phyll and Mal:

When I was in high school, History was not my favorite subject - Battle of Hastings was 1066, etc. etc. Then after I was "out in the world" a bit, I started reading Gibbons' "Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire." I was intrigued!! Why? Because everyone in the stories reminded me of my co-workers, the people next door, and even family members. Plus ca change, plus c'est la meme chose. (I just had to show off my French, didn't I?)

Robby

I received my book on Monday, but could not get on-line to let you know untill now. I have read all the posts and must say I have a lot to think about. So will be back when I have something to add.

A little insight that my 11 year old grandson provided during my visit this past weekend.

We started chatting because I was looking at his Social Studies Book and asking him what he had learned and finding Rosevelt's quote about fear, I shared a little about the depression. Than Chris asked me to tell him more about WWII. Well, I talked some about the 3rd Reicht and Italy being on our side during WWI but with Germany during WWII and the Historical European view of the Jews etc. etc. and then I weaved in a few of my own memories of living during the war.

One of the stories was when my father borrowed a car (we had already talked about rationing, gas rationing, men off to war and how there were few to harvest the crops etc.) We piled into the car my sister, mother, and the lady next door and went to an orchard where we filled the car with apples. On the way home, my sister and I sat on the apples and Mrs. Thys sat on my mother's lap which caused a great amount of laughter. Well Chris was convinced we stole the apples. I tried to explain that there was no one to pick them and they would rot as they fell off the trees and the farmers were encouraging everyone to take the apples - I explained how I helped my mother and we made apple sauce, and apple jelly, preserved apples with raisins, apple pie and apple bread and we gave sauce and jelly to most of the neighbors and some of the neighbors shared their sugar with us in exchange.

Still Chris believes we stole the apples. Than as an explaination I asked him, when they go away for a vacation what do they do with the food that will go bad in the refrigerator while they are gone - don't you give it to the neighbors next door? Well no, he never heard of such a thing, it was just saved he guessed. I said that some food cannot be saved that long, it would go bad. Than I said we always gave to others what we couldn't use rather than let it go bad and maybe it was because we had lived during the depression when food was not always there that we made sure that someone used the food rather than let it go bad . He very pensively than says, Oh I guess people were kinder and more generous back than.

Later I realized, many of us were still using iceboxes during WWII and the food wouldn't last and when we first had refrigerators we still carried the habits of living with iceboxes. The more I thought of it, I don't any longer give away food that I am not going to finish or the food in the Frig that may go bad while I am gone - it all goes down the disposal...hmmmm.

I'm seeing here that conveniences or the lack of them, affects how we treat each other and today there is not as much built-in opportunity to be easily generous. In today's world it takes effort to be generous. And than we wonder why young people appear selfish. The sharing of food may be simple but the mindset that went with that simple act affected other areas of our thinking as well.

What I hope for is a discussion about what change is needed to make the Society of Man grow to his potential. Because change is always going on. What was wrought by the feminist movement in postwar America has positive and negative effects for instance..I find life exciting and interesting and am glad to rise every morning. When my 58, 54, 49, year old children come to see me we discuss all the changes technology and science are bringing and what viewpoints are exchanged everyone laughing and having a wonderful time facing their future. They are senior citizens themselves now and often disagree with Mother. Robby asked me to expand my theme and I did and he gave a thoughtful outline of my points. I truly want to see in Universities and on think panels a psychology of ethics and morals developed and no one seems to pick up on what I mean. I may be confusing people as to my meaning. ? Faith

Barbara, you say that that "conveniences or lack of them affect how we treat each other." Aren't we again emphasizing that "adversity builds character?" Look at the effect on the children of these newly created millionaires.

And I just had another odd thought. We still have that great gap where there are, indeed, many people benefiting from the stock market but there are also still millions of poverty stricken people. Those suffering people -- are they building stronger characters than those with the millions?

Probably has nothing to do with Great Generation but it made me wonder.

Robby

Robby I think it may have to do with a basic thinking of abundance verses feeling disenfranchized or filled with fear or feeling less than. Back then we all felt like we were supporting something greater than ourselves and there was this generous spririt - there was not this grasping nor did we feel that we were either giving or receiving charity, nor did we feel less than a large part of the population as those not making money on the stock market are made to feel today.

Today, those not in the higher income brackets are made to feel less than... Last night Charlie Rose had a great interview of Ann Bancroft and she said we are nieve to think being good at anything gets you anyplace rather it is how much money you can bring in to the investors - even the Elian story is about how much money will be lost to the political parties because the Cuban community, in their anger, will no longer contribute. Today, you are really made to feel included or not based on wealth. Even kids going to collage, especially those who are the first in their families to go to collage, are there not to be enriched with a rounded education but to be more qualified to make money.

I notice my grands, as well as most kids, only occasionaly share or donate their used toys and clothes rather they have garage sales. I also am so aware when there is any kind of disaster than we have people coming together again but, it never lasts - we also have looters enough that police protection is required, that I just do not remember being part of life in the 30s and 40s. If there were looters, as we are now aware that many a famous work of art has been stored in basements and attics all these years, they were not the norm or maybe we just didn't hear about it!

Hmmm come to think of it - I don't think I am inferring it is adversity so much as back in the 30s and 40s we had social behavior built around different social conveniences or lack of - I am sure the ancients can point to the loss of community among woman when wash was no longer brought to the river or local village washing stones and wash wells as compared to, post running water into individual homes along with a tub allowed woman to wash at home or, houses spread out, miles apart and woman washed over fires in their side yards. Even going to a laundry mat today doesn't seem to encourage community as each patron sits behind their newspaper or book waiting for their wash to be done. We are out of the habits of community washing. Now when washaterias first hit the scene I believe there was more community among the patrons since so many more did not own individual appliences and there was a comradship sharing a community wash center.

Robby, maybe it's adversity plus a shared purpose that breeds character, as in times of war, or adversity that has a reasonable hope of ending, as in young couples who are struggling to make ends meet as they start out. The adversity of slavery? Or famine? No. Or maybe this phrase has lived such a long time because we've never stopped to test it.

Joan, I appreciate your reasoned comments. I wanted to convey (1) the inherent difficulties in assuming only one generation has important things to say to the other, and (2) there could be some honest disagreement about those pieces of wisdom.

My own history has been a pulling away from the mindset of mother and grandmother who felt powerless to end years of abuse of my siblings and me. Their old fashioned beliefs on sticking it out, no matter how abusive the marriage, put my brothers and sister and me at considerable risk. Even though I didn't marry an abuser, I still spent 10 years in a marriage that didn't exactly welcome two voices. I was in my 30's before realizing how damaging those traditional roles for men and women are---limiting to both. I was nearly 40 when I went back to college for a Ph.D. for the express purpose of assisting women and men in letting go of our grandparents' generation(s) of relationships that honored one voice over another.

Don't know why I'm avoiding saying this, but I suppose I see the trend away from "lessons" of that generation as a good thing. Maybe I'm having difficulty separating out the parts worth preserving.

Barbara and Betty have pointed out the difference, as Barbara says, between adversity and feeling disenfranchized and, as Betty says, the need for shared purpose along with the adversity.

Does anyone here see a shared purpose taking place in the current generation as compared to what many of us felt during the Depression and the War?

Robby

Betty Gregory you stated "their old fashioned beliefs put me_at considerable risk." Yes. And I saw that in my neighborhoods and in my close relatives I saw the Victorian repression of sexuality result in not just my early marriage but some very serious abuse and the trouble is we did not talk about these things. We seem to think child abuse sexual or psychological is a new thing or more prevalent. I think it is just more open now and I thank the lord it is because when we can have open discussions about this we can begin to solve the sociatal reasons these abuses exist. A trend away from the mores' of the past is more like what I want to see. The lesson is that the past social systems of family were less than perfect and we should not return to them, but improve on them by talking openly to our children and grandchildren so those lessons will lead to new ways of structuring families. Faith

Istill hav,nt got my book!Barbara,Iagree with the lack of communication,not just in Work areas. when I first came to NY,I found going back on the plane was like a family picnic,addreses were exchanged the reason for the trip was discused.there seem to be room to strech out.As the years have gone by what a MARKED difference.you are lucky if you dont get bumped,the seats are so close unless you are lucky enough for first class.You sit down no one talks any more computers are whipped out.it is just a case of getting there?what a lot we are missing in between.it is a must get there world !but where.I have a 14 year old grandson ,who lives near me ,he loves to talk about my generation. I cant elaborate to much these days ,have to keep it simple or I lose track,remember the old tram cars we called them,A man would give up his seat for a woman,if a funeral passed the men would stand and remove their hats.Now they dont remove them to eat. my grandson hit the nail on the head .I took him and his sister to a hotel for a weekend to swim and use the gym.we were going to dinner when I said to Miky,you will have to take that baseball cap off to eat dinner,he is among the ones who do . he was quite young then about eight.he did remove it .the next morning at breakfast we came down to see an elderly man with his base ball cap on.Miky turned round to me and said,~I guess he has plenty of money eh~ gladys

You increase my faith, Faith.

Mal:

If you do not believe that it takes adversity to build strength and character, what do you consider the source?

Robby

Barabra you say you do not remember looters in the 30s and 40s. Well in this valley (Sacrameno) if there was an empty house people moved in it. When the owners found out it took weeks to get them out. Roving bands of hungry men stole food out of orchards all the time. Then in higher circles there were the Prohobition gansters who were never kind and genrous or sharing. They looted the pocketbooks of society with poison. And just before the war and all during it we had The War Profiteers who stol e from the Government and the people. How about the Blackmarket where I worked on the Airfield Px I was offered fabulous prices if I would bring out cigarettes. I didnt, not because I was so holy, but I was afraid of the Major I worked for. My point is there is not a Greatest Generation even if Tom Brokaw wants to name it as such. It was Great Generation of people who under pressure accomplished wonders and won a war.and were pretty much true patriots. But Greatest is a superlative I would not use. I still say that strength is there in the population today if put to the test. Faith

I only see pockets of shared purpose - we have the recent Miami Cuban community - the concern about the world Bank brought out protesters - most disasters bring folks together in a shared purpose, but again these are usually local and our society seems less interested in helping wholesale what happenes abroad.

I notice in those neighborhoods were there are many children the families are all friendly and sharing the watch and concern for all the children especially, those families that all live on one cul-de-sac. In fact the cul-de-sac neighbors share seasonal decorating and often neighborhood barbeques. But that is not the same as the kind of larger than life purpose that was the morning grits of surviving the depression or WWII. During Viet Nam we had a great huge number protesting but again, we are talking protesting not a unifying coming together.

Faith we were posting at the same time - and yes, you are so right - I guess I just didn't think of them as looters since the media hadn't labled them as such. Now I am not sure that the gangsters were poisonining society so much as smuggling and bringing in what the law forbad but folks wanted. Than anytime we have commerce being transacted outside the law we have a mess don't we - as we have a mess with drug smuggling today.

I have been reading all these posts since yesterday and find that no matter what the circumstances we do want to develop some consistentness and accountability in our lives which means that although we don't want to impart the Victorian ways of life, we do want to impart the good things that have given us strength of character and an empathetic personality. Does adversity strengthen this approach to life? Into each life a little rain must fall! What a person does with the rain on his/her parade is what strenghtens his/hers character.,

And, no one person is going to handle his/her problems the same way. So, yes, the previous generations do have some good things to impart to the present generations. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't have left my sunny home in Georgia to return to cloudy Ohio to be near my grandchildren. My reason was that all children need to know their grandparents. So, I must value what I have learned over the years. Not everyone suffered abuse and not everyone has felt disenfranchised. Even though I may look at certain things differently now, I still think that I have important ideals and morals to pass on to the next generation. Accountability being one of them!! A word that I have had taped to my frig for 40 years. What is that old saying? As you sow, so shall you reap!

Bettygregory---I think what you pointed out about bad patterns is important. We sometimes forget about the harm done to children when theie parents are not happy or when one or another or both parents are abusive.

My parents lived in a traditional marriage where Dad went to work, and Mom stayed home with the kids and worked in the home. But my father always treated my mother as an equal, asking her advice about problems he had at work. I can remember listening to them talking as they did the dishes together. My father also used to point out to all and sundry that my mother had read far more books than he. she had the equivalent of a junior college degree, and he had his PhD, but he always thought she was smarter than he was.

Maryal

Betty.I it doesnt take adversity to make people buetiful and Strong,it is wonderful so know people dont flaunt their wealth.I wonder if the fact of knowing she knew where the next meal was coming from ,and she wouldnt be turned out if the rent wasnt paid,or to see her children put card soles in their shoes to keep them dry.Also never have new Easter dreses and most of all ,No Hope .One could easily have turned bad !we are talking of the ones who came through and mainly have deep pity for those who didnt.

Faith reminds us of the less savory aspects of that earlier generation -- the prohibition gangsters which were mentioned earlier plus war profiteering and black marketing. Despite those actions that generation accomplished wonders "under pressure." Is that what is required -- pressure? Is that another word for adversity? What kind of pressure is needed?

Barbara defines what went on during the Depression and the War as a "larger than life purpose" as compared to what she sees today as "pockets of shared purpose." Even in those pockets she emphasizes the difference betwen protesting and a "unifying" coming together.

Ann values what she has learned over the years -- one trait being accountability. What are your reactions to her strong feeling that "all children need to know their grandparents?"

Robby

I'm also beginning to see a pattern here Ann - I wonder if we are saying is, we would like to see character building experiences for our grands and we are not really sure with the big changes in society how to go about that accept hope that we are emparting something as we share the everyday instances of life with our grandchildren? Bennett wrote a book with lessons in character but I'm not sure that reading a story established my character and like Betty I also experienced an abusive home. It has been a source of puzzelment and wonder for me to see my bother and sisters all develop different priorities and character in their life from similar experiences.

Oh yes, and I was going to fix it by marrying and making it all correct - yep you guessed it - married what I knew and abuse abounded with again my three children all creating a different lifestyle that is either; carrying on the abuse on themselves, really changing with lots of treatment and finally, taking the best of what was and repeating it along with a sense of gentle integrity but is so busy being perfect he is stressed all his life.

Hooray! My book arrived. Good luck to all of you still waiting. We are going to the mountains for a few days and this will be great to have on hand.

I have been thinking about how we learn our ethics and morals. One of my classes was Medicine and Ethics. Everyone enjoyed it until one of the women basically did a fillabuster against abortion. It wasn't her opinion that we disagreed with, it was the fact that she pushed her opinion so violently in the classroom. That was a subject very hidden during the "greatest generation". I think that we learn our ethics and morals from our experience from the very beginning. My father made verbal contracts. A handshake was his word of honor. Even if he lost money on a handshake deal, he would never cancel the contract. It was very strange to our family that this man would honor a handshake with others but he would forget to honor an agreement with family members. At his funeral, many people told me how honorable a person he was with them and I could only remember the broken promises. So, in my lifetime, I strive to honor the family first in our agreements. Ethics and morals seem to change with individual reasoning. Have a great week and thank you for the book. Carol

Carol:

Would you please expand on your comment that "ethics and morals seem to change with individual reasoning?"

Robby

And, Faith, would you say more about a new psychology of ethics?

It's interesting that though I was born in 1933, I can remember the sense of "togetherness" that never occurred with the Korean War or with Vietnam. Our schools had scrap metal drives, milk pod collections, (I think they were collected for parachutes??), we bought savings stamps, and we felt we were truly a part of the war effort.

Another thing I will never forget was getting a whole BOX of Hershey candy bars from my uncle who apparently got them from his PX. My mother hid them and doled them out in pieces.

I just received my copy of The Greatest Generation Speaks, and I am looking forward to reading it. Thanks, Senior Net.

I just went to look and no book again!!

Robby, I agree with you about sports being War. All competition is. But there are good ones and bad ones. I think of football, personally, as being one of the bad ones because people really get badly hurt, as in war. Saw a high school youngster get paralized from the neck down for life in one quick pile up once.

Mal, you are absolutely right about everything having happened before. There really is nothing new under the sun, even though we constantly hear people saying: "You never heard of all these teen age pregnancies in my day!" Well, the statement is correct: you did not "hear of them". But the inference is totally wrong: they occurred all the time. The percentage per the population is actually LESS today than it was in our youth, thanks to widespread birth control. There is an example like this for every subject that comes up. Oh, except as regards computers. I will admit to that being new stuff.

More and more I'm hearing the word "togetherness" being used by various people in this Discussion Group. As the years pass along, are the individuals in each succeeding generation becoming more separate? And does that relate in any way to ethics and morals?

Robby

(grin) Do you have a thought on that, Robby?

Betty"

I'm a psychologist. I don't have answers; I just ask questions.

Robby

Someone, was it you, Betty? wrote in a previous post about the sadness of a family, for example, spending an evening at home "together," with each family member in his or her own space, either watching their own TV or working at their own computer!

When I was growing up, we all gathered around the single radio in the house, after a dinner where everyone ate together and conducted a lively discussion, to listen to all the old favorites, like "Fiber McGee and Molly," "Jack Benny," "Amos 'N Andy,"(how politically incorrect)and Red Skelton, and we laughed together, sometimes cried together, and yes, even argued together, about what to listen to. The point is, we were a family really "together!"

Lorrie

Mal:

I know about Betty. That's why I kidded back.

Again the word "together", this time from Lorrie - laughing, crying, and arguing together. Did the lack of conveniences then bring families together and does the explosion of conveniences now separate them? Is the young generation being "killed with kindness?"

Robby

Let me go back to Post 593 and 594 and answer Betty Gregory's question seriously.

I believe there is a direct connection between togetherness and morals & ethics. Morals and ethics are, in my opinion, taught through behavior and not by words whether they be written or oral. Yes, one can be influenced by reading the Old Masters and one can be influenced by hearing someone like Dr. Martin Luther King but such influence is not necessarily lasting.

But watching one's parents or guardians day after day and night after night pounds lessons into young heads. And this can be so negatively as well. One can grow up amoral after seeing a parent acting in this fashion. I shared in an earlier posting about immediately stopping my short term period of shop lifting after the store owner considered notifying my father. Here again was togetherness -- community togetherness. How often we have heard about city neighborhoods where the elders sat by the upstairs windows and watched the behavior on the streets of other people's children. The children couldn't "escape" this positive environment. In a sense they had no choice. The only way they could be "bad" would be to go far away where they could lead separate lives.

There may, as Mal says, still be family togetherness in certain homes but, as far as I can tell, community togetherness is dissipating.

Robby

I'm enjoying all these individual stories so very much! However, Joan asks about "fundamental lessons" learned from this generation and I point out what Brokaw states:

....there are common traits that cannot be denied. It is a generation that, by and large, made no demands of homage from those who followed and prospered.......It is a generation of towering achievement and modest demeanor...

Do you believe this to be true? Have we been this humble and modest?

And Joan asks the premise of Brokaw's book? Look at the Table of Contents and you will quickly note that TB is following ordinary and some not so ordinary people that were born in the 1920's, which was

a time of national promise, optimism and prosperity, when all things seemed possible as the United States was swiftly taking its place as the most powerful nation in the world. World War I was over, America's industrial might was coming of age with the rise of the auto industry , etc.

Isn't it clear that Brokaw, in awe of those participating in WWII, both at home and abroad, wanted to tell their stories? Do all of you agree that this is the idea behind the book?

Has anyone read Stephen Ambrose's book that Brokaw mentions entitled D-DAY June 6, 1944: The Climactic Battle of World War II? Or Churchill's book mentioned in the first chapter? Those of you who are interested in war history would no doubt learn much in those volumes. It is not a subject that is dear to my heart or one that I would spend much time on; however, my husband is very interested in the Civil War and on trips we often stop at those battlefields that are so carefully preserved.

And following the young Americans through the 20's and 30's with a brief history of events, and into the era of WWII, Brokaw states:

The young Americans of this time constituted a generation birthmarked for greatness, a generation of Americans that would take its place in American history with the generations that had converted the North American wilderness into the United States and infused the new nation with self-determination embodied first in the Declaration of Independence and then in the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

Brokaw then states that these young Americans knew of the "ravages of the greatest war the world has seen."

How did Brokaw come to the decision that WWII was the "greatest war the world has seen?" How is a war judged? By the number of nations involved, by the number of those killed, or by the peace initiatives established at the conclusion? What are the criteria used?

I did receive my book and wish to thank Seniornet for this kind gesture. I haven't read much of it as yet as I've been out of town - certainly the rest of you will be getting yours soon. In looking over the Table of Contents there are a number of people we are all familiar with and I particularly am interested in the chapter on Art Buchwald - if you like to read humorous books - get one of his. Fabulous!

The second book arrived today and I also want to thank everyone responsible at Seniornet. I am looking forward to reading it, wish my husband had lived long enough for me to read it to him. He thouroughly enjoyed the first one on tape.

He joined the Navy when he was sixteen but when they found his true age he was told, "come back in a couple of years". He waited only one and joined at seventeen and was on the USS Biloxi for three years.; Every time I mentioned going on a cruise his reply was, "Hell, I was on a cruiser for three years". Not sure if he really meant it but we never did go on one together.

These stories here are great and I look forward to more...Lois

I have read both of Brokaw's books and they were fine. But I felt that most of the tales that were told by the men who fought in the war were those which have lost their poignancy over time and which additionally have lost their impact by being passed through the interviewer (Brokaw). Tom B., as the interviewer, has distilled further the awful experiences of war. His work, however, is a second hand account of how it was. I have in my possession a collection of reminiscences and photos bound into a book entitled a "History of the 9th Bombardment Group." The editor, Larry White, was one of the men who flew in the B-29's from Tinian Island in the Pacific to bomb Japan. He and Herb Hobler of the 9th Bomb Group Association of Princeton, NJ, have gathered together dozens of first-hand accounts of what it really was like to fly on those bombing missions. This book tells it the way it was--and it astounds me that men had such a strength of mind and will to be able to do what they did--and not just once, but repeatedly--knowing that the next mission could be their last. Reading the history of the 9th BG is the history of many of our present-day seniors. We owe them so much.

I have just finished seeing the movie, "Fiddler on the Roof," for the third time. It struck me how the theme of the movie was much of what we are talking about here. Constantly they sang "Tradition." And there was always a bitter-sweet relationship between the two generations. I cry every time I see that story and hear that music. I cry easily anyhow.

Robby

I am really enjoying this book and everyone's stories and comments.

While sitting in a waiting room of a medical lab yesterday, I was able to read and totally concentrate on "The Greatest Generation" for about two hours. What a wonderful way Tom Brokaw had of getting into the thoughts and feelings of the people of that era, and expressing this in his words. I found myself drifting back in time and dredging up memories that I had put aside. As I read, and re-read some special phrases in deep thought, probably the expressions on my face may have shown the moods of my emotions.

The first two segments Generations and The Time Of Their Lives was really good. On page XXI, in sentence that reads, "Although they were transformed by their experiences and quietly proud of what they had done, their stories did not come easily". This brought to my mind the words, modesty, humbleness, and quiet fortitude. I believe those are the traits that so many of us showed in our every day actions of that time. We seemed to have self-respect, a quiet sense of self-pride and were thankful for what we had and what we could do. I do believe that it was thequiet fortitude of many, that carried us though the trying times.

Mary Koerner, you speak of "self-respect and self-pride." Do you see that as more representative of your generation than the present-day generation?

Robby

Two more Big Welcomes - Marilyn Baker and duaneb!!! Glad to have you with us! I'm working on the list above - adding to Seniornet's greatest - those born 1930 and earlier? If you do not find yourself on our list of honorees, please let me know and I'll add your name. Scroll^ and you'll see the last item on the header is a link to the "roster"! Faith, you listed the age of your "kids" - do you want to go up there? And Lois if your husband was 16, but wanted to fight...if you give me his name, he definitely was "of age" during that war!

Gladys, there will be much celebrating when your book finally arrives! Many of you seem to have one or the other on hand. We have been reading the introductory chapters of both books for discussion. If you have just received your book, please don't feel you have to rush through it. We will be moving through The Greatest Generation chapter by chapter, taking related stories and letters from Greatest Generation Speaks as we go...

Yes, Robby, I do think that it was more prevalent in that time period.

Many people these days are so vocal about their activities and their beliefs. When, really "they having nothing to crow about". Don't you agree?

Mary, I thought it interesting that the words, "modesty, humbleness, and quiet fortitude" struck you, while Ella noted "a generation of towering achievement and modest demeanor" as being representative of this generation. No wonder it has taken so long for these folks to speak up!

The introductory chapter, you are both reading, "Generations" is the one in which T Brokaw comes closest to stating why he regards this generation the "greatest". Yes, Ella, I'd say "awe" is a good word for what T. Brokaw feels - and on my book jacket, he says he wants to pay tribute to them, and as duanebsays, we owe them so much - I think Brokaw feels that too. I don't know how you judge the "greatest war", but it seems to have involved just about the whole world...I'd call that great...and what was greater?

"A generation that made no demands of homage from those who followed and prospered economically, politically and culturally because of its sacrifices."
A generation of towering achievement and modest demeaner
A generation that made enduring contributions that transcend gender - raised the place of their gender to new heights and changed forever the perception and the reality of women in all disciplines of American life."

The chapter on "Generations" should start to open up some memories before we start the individual stories. We'd love to hear yours!

I had a well formed thought about the Psychology of Family Stucture and read all the posts and now my thoughts are pretty scattered. In the 70's when I was recovering from my kids all growing up, divorce, learning a whole new way of being, I went to many hours of group therapy. We were what is know as a Client Centered Group based on theorys of Carl Rogers. I guess I had about 7 years of in and out contact with this group. At that time I also began reading Carl Rogers theorys and some other works that followed up what he was doing. Basically these concepts were to leave behind the Authoritarian Leadership based on Power and Control and use a style of leadership based on the Leader facilitating the growth of the client (student, child,business or and "entity") in a way where the entity had autonomy , freeing people to do things their own way, stimulating independence, the facilitator accepting the unacceptable innovative creations that emerge, delegate full rsponsibility, the group explored all the parts of the (lesson,) problem etc, and relying on self evaluations and finding reward in the achiement of others with the facilitator offering feedback rather than Lectures and assigned Lessons. It can get complicated to explain but my idea is that the New Family Unit is one that often has no leader and no facilitator but are just all a group. I would not want to put an Authoritarian Controlling Parent back into the home. It always has caused trouble in all societies where it has been the Cultural Norm(Paternalistic) but I dont like to see the abdication of leadership, so thats what I mean We should train young people to be Facilitators ,of Groups, Business'and Families. Then when the family unit is established a parent would accept the role as facilitator of the family . Well, If i had more knowledge I could explain it better. But in the home there would not be the big all powerful Authority that had to be rebelled against but a home full of people (related or not) who listen, exchang ideas ,learn and are learning life lessons by the examples set for them by the facilitator and by the teachers in school following the same pattern and the coachs of games too. And I just wish it were on the table somewhere for Educators, Psycologist, etc to discuss and find a way. for the New Family Structure often is made up of step parents step children and everyone trying to get together in a livable way, a way the family can survive . Well this has only to do with the GG in the fact that I dont think we have caught up with all the changes in society yet.Faith

Faith, I'm feeling a great disconnect between the two versions of the WWII generation father...he was either the domineering repressive "Patton" type or he was the father so intent on providing for his family and rebuilding the country that he left the child-rearing to mom. Which was it? I suppose we can't say anything other than our own experience, right? What kind of a father was your husband to your children? Too personal? Maybe we can't generalize at all. But my own father had to be both to me since my mother died, but I always felt my friends had it easy because their fathers were not so involved in their lives....My father being one of the "greatest" (in every sense of the word)!

Hi Gladys and Carollee and all. Hey I am on our branch here for now, but some speak so far above me I am left out of there coversation. I wish to tell you that I will be gone for a while but will be thinking of you. This Limey is headed for England to check out my people ( name WRIGHT) I shall return and will read if posiable all I have not recieved my book yet either

Will talk when I get home. Love Gingee

I saw your post, Joan, and this is all I can say.

I had my mother seven years of my life; was only rarely permitted to see her for the next five years she lived, but, unlike you I knew my mother long enough to have memories of her. Your post made me very, very sad. There's no way I can say I'm sorry.

Mal

Joan, Mal, I don't think it is whether you have a certain parent or not as much as what kind of parenting you get. I had loving Grandparents who were close by all the time and saved all we children from a sort of repressed Mom who had six kids in 13 years then my Dad didnt come home to Tahoe for years it seemed. There was a large extended family though where I saw authoritarian abuse. I married at 14 and my husband was a controling man. I belonged to him. Period. I could work when he need me too but only jobs where he could still control me. I worked for him in the office of our contracting business until kids grew up. They were in a hurry to get out too. My daughter went to University at Davis and never came home much. My son in Army and Younges married at 18 so I was able to divorce at that time.My husband was liked even loved by all his friends and most of my family. He was a gregarious and generous man but as I saw he owned me. I wrote a whole book that took me several years grabbing an hour hr and there. It was a sort of autobiographical novel about a growing up in a resort town and the problems of being poor in a rich crowd of summer visitors. All my experiences including some sexually explicit stuff. One day I came home and went to the Laundry where my desk and typewriter were and he was in there reading my draft. There was a terrible row. He harrangued me till midnight. I was about 27 at this time. He finally took me outside and he burned the novel draft and said that was the end of that . And it was . I sneaked in some poetry now and then but evenafter Divorce and remarriage I could not make myself really learn to write and then do it. some stupid story. Has nothing to do with the topic. Well guess it does. But my children remember a good father who gave them a good life and education but was very controlling. Of course until recently they would never say a word against him or their upbringing. Nor should they. They after all loved him and were always near him and he did prove to be a good grandpapa to the ir children. Well, hope that answeres your question. Faith

Faith, your story of your marriage is so similar to mine.

Write your book!!

Mal

JOAN and FAITH...In my experience, the World WarII generation was a happy medium between the two. No, that isn't right either. The fathers that I knew were not Patton, but when they spoke, the kids knew it was time to shape up. And, they did not leave all the upbringing for the mothers to handle, either. Most of the mothers around me when our children, the Baby Boomers, were growing up, did not hold jobs outside the home. Or if they did, they were part-time jobs, like mine. I was a substitute teacher, which meant when the kids were home, so was I. My husband played with our children when they were little, read stories to them, made up stories for them, and, as they grew, participated in their extracuricular activites when needed. He taught them to fish, to hunt, and to help. To this day, my sons clear the table and clean up the kitchen after a big meal, because their father taight them how. "Mom did a lot of work getting this meal on the table, and now she gets to rest while we clean up." It astounded some of the relatives! In fact, when our oldest visited his cousin, who was one of four sons with a macho father, he started to clear the table after dinner, and told Paul to get up and help him. Paul did, his mother told me, with the rest of the guys sitting there with their mouths open. Such a thing had never happened in that house before!

This was in the 50s and 60s, and I can't vouch for families that came later, when more and more women were going to work full time, and many fathers were on a track for success in business. My husband turned down chances for advancment because they entailed traveling, and he didn't want to do that, to be on the road instead of at home. He came from a large loving family, and altho it was mostly unspoken, I'm sure now that his ideas of home life were based on his childhood.

Love...Katie

Joan P Yes I would like my name to go on the Roster. I was born Feb 5 1927 at home, in a snow storm. I signed in for a book rather late so maybe I am not going to get one anyway I dont have it yet. Mal, what a comforting post. You see I admire you very much. Katie my husband was not so different in his day to day treatment of the family he was involved with all activities, took children everywhere, gave them wonderful experiences, but the side that refused to let an 18 year old stay out later than 12 in the year 1959 was controlling and he refused to let her have her own apt in Univ. until they kicked her out of the dorm at 21 because freshman needed the space things that sound silly but really are so old fashioned out dated usless rules it is a wonder she didnt rebel. I am glad your family experience was kind and left you with such good feelings. Faith

Thank you, Faith, for all that deep sharing!! You ask us to think of the different roles a father can play. Are parents (particularly fathers) less controlling now and more the facilitator? Is the method of being a father during the GG outdated?

I am from that generation. As we approached the birth of our first child, I attended a course entitled Expectant Fathers being given by the Visiting Nurses Association. Using dolls, I learned how to change diapers (no Pampers then), burp the child, bathe it, feed it, hold its head properly, etc. After he was born as well as after the birth of our second child, I did all those things. I still have the certificate given by the Association. Where does that put me?

Katie suggests that our ideas of homelife are based on childhood. Your thoughts?

Robby

Homelife based on childhood; let's see. From the time I was 11 years old, I went home to an empty house and walked in the back door to see bowls of stuck-on oatmeal on the breakfast table. After I took my coat off, I ran water in the dishpan and lugged it to the stove. When it was hot, I scrubbed and scrubbed the bowls, dried them with a dish towel and put them away. Then I peeled the potatoes for supper and put them in a pan of water and set the dining room table. After that I went in the cold living room. Only the kitchen and dining room were heated, you see. Thrift. Had to save money for other things like the Oriental rug in the living room and Spode dinnerware and Towle sterling silverware my aunt liked to buy. The water heater was turned on once a week on Saturday for baths.

I did my homework; then did my practicing on the piano. A little after 5 I went in the kitchen and turned the gas on under the pan of potatoes and went back to the piano. A lot of the time I forgot to check them and didn't know they had burned until my aunt came home after six to yell at me for burning the potatoes again and making the peels too thick.

She cooked the hamburg we never called ground beef, or pork chops and opened a jar of tomatoes we canned in August and heated it up. Then we sat around the dining room table and I listened to gossip my aunt heard in the jewelry store downtown where she was a bookkeeper and clerk and all the Boston news and politics and sports from my uncle while we ate.

After I heated more dishwater and washed and dried the dishes, I went up to my room and went to bed. I listened to the news and I Love A Mystery on my radio, shut off the light and went to sleep in a very, very cold bedroom that had ice on the inside of the windows in the morning when I got up.

No, my idea of homelife today is not based on what I knew when I was growing up.

Mal

Mal:

No question that your childhood exemplifies adversity. At what point did you "escape" that type of homelife and how did you do it?

Robby

Quote from Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:

IT HAD DONE ME GOOD TO BE SOMEWHAT PARCHED BY THE HEAT AND DRENCHED BY THE RAIN OF LIFE.

Robby, when I was 17, I won a scholarship to Smith College, a women's college in Western Massachusetts. In the Fall of 1946 at age 18, I left the environment in which I grew up to go to a place where practically all the other girls had come from fairly comfortable or rich backgrounds. The adjustment was difficult, but I had some talent others didn't have, played the piano every night after dinner in the house where I lived, a dormitory but at Smith they were called houses, and gradually began to fit in.

After I graduated, I applied for and got a job singing and playing the piano in a hotel in Providence, Rhode Island, and I never lived at "home" in Massachusetts again.

Mal

Mal:

A most inspirational story !!

Robby

Robby, you asked "Where does that put me," regarding your preparation for and caretaking of your children. It puts you off the chart on the bell curve, waaay out there, I'd guess. But you already knew that, right? I believe there were many loving fathers who "helped" with children during that time, but fewer who were really involved in their children's lives.

Faith and Mal, Virginia Woolf has written about strategies early female authors employed to keep their writing secret, therefore safe. I wish I could remember which book. Possibly A Room of One's Own. Reading about that years ago hit me so hard and I'm having a similar reaction to your stories. Also, Faith, your repeated description of ownership, of being owned by another, really captures the experiences of many of us. It was also an early tenet of John Stuart Mill's writings (1869) equating women's lives with slavery. "Subjection of Women" was one title.

What you must, do you hear me, must own, however, is Carolyn Heilbrun's Writing: A Woman's Life which gives me something new each time I read it. It is about women who write. It is about writing about women's lives. It is about women writing their own life scripts. Heilbrun spent her professional life as an English professor at Yale (uh, Columbia?) and fought that male dominated academic system year after year. She even took the pen name Amanda Cross to write cerebral mysteries, not feeling free to use her real name (this is recently!!) under that oppressive system. Her latest and most personal non-fiction book, written at age 70, Last Gift of Time: Life Beyond 60, tells of her life age 60-70, including leaving her academic position early and trying out a separate weekend beach house from her husband's. In other words, she carried out some of her dreams---with unexpected results. Very unique, one-of-a kind thinker. As part of "that" generation, I wonder how she might view the changes through this century.

I have a bushel basket full of notes to scatter here this morning - so much to think about! And such a comfortable place to do so. Will spare you by strewing in small handfuls...

First things first! Our newest addition to the future generation, and hopefully the "greatest"! Noah Sander Alden was born at 7:30 this morning! His thrilled grandma, Ann, will probably not be joining us today! We are so happy for you, Ann! Feel like a great aunt, although Ann calls me a "grandma by proxy"...

Speaking of babies, can't you just see our Robby practicing burping that doll! What a guy...(not at all like my own husssss) Keep in your mind that this is a returning WWII Vet, one of those fathers we are looking at closely today.

Betty:

What especially struck me was that Carolyn Heilbrun had her book published at age 70. Now there's a role model!

Robby

Joan:

My second son was full of wim and wigor. While being fed his Pablum, he would swing both arms around while turning his head back and forth. So I developed a technique. He would sit somewhat sideways - I would pin his left arm between my left arm and my body and press tight - with my left hand I would hold his right arm - and my right arm would guide (haha) the spoon into his mouth. He apparently ate well as he was soon put on skim milk!! Changing his diaper was also interesting -- learning how to quickly cover his loins with another diaper so as not to receive the "fountain of youth." So many memories!!

Good morning, Betty! We were posting at the same time! I agree, Carolyn Heilbrun writing at 70 is an inspiration! Faith, it's time! The unfortunate draft-burning took place nearly 50 years ago...a lifetime ago. Buy a notebook, write some notes! Write a letter to yourself...write anything! Just start and the rest will come!

I spent much of this morning reading Greatest Generation Speaks. Many of you have received that book and know that it is a collection of letters written to Tom Brokaw by the WWII generation in response to the publication of The Greatest Generation . For many of these letter-writers, this is the first time they have expressed their memories of the war and post-war...

It is my hope that each of us feels that urge - to express long -buried memories ~ to get them down on paper...(or word-processor) as this discussion brings them back - out in the open. Not only is this therapeutic - it's an important, true story, a record of how things really were - beyond the few paragraphs in the history books! Even if it's a letter here in a post - print it out, save it. If you don't have a printer, ask and we'll copy and mail it to you!

It is not easy to get the "greatest" to speak - because the "greatest" generation is made up of ordinary people - who accomplished the "extraordinary." It's the ordinary stories that demonstrate the "extraordinary" life you led! Let's start today!

Robby, having diapered 4 sons, I know that of which you speak!!!

I would like to comment on Mary Koerner's posts of yesterday, #606 and #609 and on Robby's question in post #607----

The Greatest Generation (the time of our parents and our older siblings and to some extent, our own early years) were described as a time when people had "modesty, humble(ness), and pride". The inference, I thought, was that the present generation, as a whole, does not have those qualities. I think they do, but I wonder if they have something that we didn't have---for one thing, they are much better informed than I was at a young age about world events and they do not have an unquestioning acceptance of so-called authority. It seems to me that in those war years and for a time through, perhaps, the Korean conflict, we pretty much thought that our government always had as the main priority "the good of the people". We didn't question what the governing powers told us was necessary to be done. That acceptance disappeared in the Vietnam War and I do not believe we will ever return to a time of such naiveness. And personally, I think that is good. Younger people are smarter (if not always wiser) and they do question and in some cases, reject "governing authority". That can cause painful times but in the long run, I think it is better for the American people.

Phyll

Phyll:

I may not have this right but was it Jefferson who said: "Freedom comes at the price of eternal vigilence?" As you indicate, the younger generation may be more vigilant than we were.

Joan:

When I was taught diapering with a doll, they didn't tell us about the "fountain of youth." I had to learn through adversity.

Robby

Welcome to the world, little NOAH!

Robby, my husband diapered our children with no lessons from a visiting nurses agency and fed them when necessary. It's a learned skill that doesn't need much practicing, it seemed to come naturally to both of us. He's a big man and it broke me up to see my small 5 lb. little girl in his hands - she was like a doll!

However, I never knew my father and mother who were of the WWI generation. My mother, who had been a sickly child, had 6 children fairly close together and it robbed her of all her strength, both physically and mentally. My father, fortunately, had a job during the depression but, of necessity, he was working over 12 hours a day and could not keep the family together. I was taken from the home at the age of one year by relatives and never returned; some 8 years later my sisters and I were sent to an orphanage and the effects of that have always lingered in our lives. It's an unhappy story and I rarely mention it.

I do so now to point out that many families during the depression suffered deeply; the strong survived somehow and the weak fell by the wayside.

However, as I understand it from my sisters, my father was a gentle man, but not a strong one. He later divorced my mother and was married twice thereafte and we lost contact with him.

From where I sit in my corner of the world, the young men of today realize that dual jobs mean dual parenting and dual household chores. And they are taking up their tasks splendidly; I have great hope for the future generation and hope they never have to live with another great depression or a great war.

On Larry King's show Sunday night he interviewed the cast of a new movie about WWII entitled "U-571" which is about submarines during WWII. Also there were two Admirals (I think their title is correct); one retired who was the Advisor to the movie and says they got it right technically although the story is fictional, and the other is the head of a fleet of modern nuclear subs.

The young actors all expressed their admiration for the men in the submarine fleet during the war; they had done their homework and had read of the conditions endured by the men. It's an action movie and was shot on Malta where they had to build a submarine to specifications.

The movie was #1 at the box office that week and had grossed upteen millions already; what with SAVING PRIVATE RYAN and now this one WWII is getting a bit of publicity.

KKatie said two things I've been thinking about - His (her husband's) idea of home life was based on his childhood." This is important for this discussion, but I want to take a little side trip with that idea...

It is surprising how many of us are sharing memories of unfortunate...(disfunctional?) childhoods. What idea of homelife did we grow up with? Mal?

I didn't mention something yesterday. Something pretty important - to me. My father didn't raise me immediately following my mother's death. I was sent immediately to "boarding school" for three years. My father and his mother coped with the four younger ones at home. This was 1945. The school was packed with little girls. I never asked them where their families were, as I recall.

When I was 10, then I came home to mother the brood. My brother, born in 1945 was raised by his father, who worked full time and his 10 yr. old sister. What was this Boomer's idea of home life? How did he turn out? Well, he is a psychologist! <<VBG>> He married once, had a daughter and divorced after two years of marriage.

When I was 13 I volunteered on Saturdays in an orphanage. I clearly remember my first day there. I opened the door of a big room full of two year olds. Some of them saw me and began to come at me crying with open arms..."Mama" and after a few seconds I had the entire room flocking to me. Don't remember how I handled it. Just remember the open arms and crying...

I hope they all turned out to become the beautiful caring adult that is our Ella! You've never met a more charming, smiling, caring person!

Do you know what I think happened with the three of us, Mal? We grew up with no model at all. So we invented our own ideal of a woman, a happy home life and loving should be - we invented ourselves! We aren't embittered toward anyone in particular - like an abusive or repressive parent. We can however, be disappointed when the dream that is our model - turns out not quite as we hoped - expected. But why should it? It's the ideal - too perfect! But I think deep in our hearts we know that too...

What's my point? As Katie also pointed out, we can't make blanket statements about any generation. An average family is only that...there are extremes that bring about that average. There is a norm though - common threads, beliefs, goals, held by many (most) members of a generation ..and those are what we are looking for here....

Back in five! (I told you I had a bushel basket this morning!)

Robby, back to your post about learning to be a father. I did not mean just fathers were at fault. It was the basic family structure. . I was refering more to the Family of the past being structured in such a way as to stifle Sons and Daughters and the Baby Boomers simply said no more, and also to an unquestioned authoritarian government Phyll noted in her post.

But the good thing is the American Family despite all the news you hear as to its failure is a living and growing "group" that is developing new ways and hopefully better ways of coping.

I am now becoming very interested in finding out why I only hear the wonderful stuff that the Greatest Generation accomplished. They did to be sure but my eternal question to the world is if there were dark reasons, reasons not complimentary to the ordinary man why cant we now talk about it. I know the world was not all growing wonderful character and strong will because of the depth of their despairi in the depression years. I know that prohabition created much misery as I could see bums drinking gasoline down town in front of the grocery store. I heard of all the people making hay while the sun shines by bootlegging. Where are those stories. What about the fathers who were traveling all over looking for work while the mothers did laundry or other tasks for wages and children went with cardboard in their shoes. I am a grown up at 73, and I can stand it to hear stories like Malryns because its true though extremely sad, and shows how she overcame that background. As so many did. Got to go think this over. I am not sure what I am saying. But no one but Robby has said one word about the War Profeteering , or mentioned the Black market. These things did exist even among the Greatest Generation. Faith

JoanP another typical story . You see we do not have one family structure in reality. We have just got a picture of "perfect" in our heads. And for the most part we don't go around talking about the sadder and tougher aspects of family. After my post above I realized that I think we also keep Society's Secrets, as it is not done to discuss brutality and incest in the home so we must not discuss black markets and bootleggers and gangsters. Faith

Faith, do you have either of the Brokaw books which we are discussing here? Full of individual stories, as are the stories we are sharing here.

In case you don't have the books, in the introduction to The Greatest Generation, TB writes:

"These men and women came of age in the Great Depression, when economic despair hovered over the land like a plague. They had watched their parents lose their businesses, their farms, their jobs, their hopes."

And then he goes on to comment about the adult lives of this generation...when the war was over...

"THey weren't perfect. They made mistakes. They allowed McCarthyism and racism to go unchallenged for too long. Women of the WWII generation, who had demonstrated so convincingly that they had so much more to offer beyond their traditional work, were the underpinning for the liberation of their gender, even as many of their husbands resisted the idea.."

Brokaw does mention Prohibition - starting when this child of the greatest generation was still very much a child...

No one is saying you can't mention your particular situation, Faith You and I have done that ...Tom Brokaw has told his. We each have but one story in the many we are about to read. There is no cover-up going on. But we have to realize our stories are not the norm. I don't think that many of the greatest generation married at 14. That's probably not the norm. I imagine your husband was older. The fact that he was controlling is really not too surprising. I am happy and relieved for you that he was a good father.

What Tom Brokaw is saying - despite the mistakes - in his estimation, this is still the greatest generation. And he really believes that. He says in the introduction to the Greatest Generation Speaks~ that he believes this and writes it, not only as a tribute to his parents - "teachers and ministers, coaches and merchants, mothers and fathers of my friends - all who had experienced great hardship during the Depression and the war years." I say, let the generation speak and stop quibbling about the word "greatest" which Tom Brokaw obviously believes with all his heart! Let's talk about it at the end of the discussion. We've probably said about as much about it as we can for now.

I do want to talk about something you said a few days ago, Faith, something that was the norm...and one of the mistakes of your generation...

No Joan I don't have the book yet. And I also believe with all my heart that the men and women of the USA against all odds and in harrowing circumstances rose to the task in heroic ways. Ordinary people like my husband and I, we wanted to win that war. We loved America and I don't know one person I ever came across who was not a true patriot. I was merely commenting on the obvious lack of comment in one area. It was of interest to me. No I do not think it is a cover up. And I did not say there was. I merely commented that Society has its unconsciously held secrets. Faith

Your posts concerning women in the immediate post-war years have provided much food for thought. I think Faith's statement, "I was trying to work and live my mom's life ~ sums up the emerging conflict regarding women's roles. The Vets were anxious to resume ordinary lives - their idea of the homes of their childhoods. The women had either been in the services or out of the home working. They all expected when the war was over that lives would be traditionally normal. But some women had to work and care for the children (lots of dads didn't make it home) & some others no longer found fulfillment in the traditional stay-at-home role - Tom Brokaw chalks the inability of husbands of this generation to understand that as one of the mistakes of this generation. I think it's understandable. Both men and women still had the home-lfe of their childhood as a model of how things were supposed to be.

ps. Mal, I can't thank you for your understanding ear and sisterhood. The easy-going husband is a similar dream we shared!

Well, even in the absence of books, let's look at the model, the childhood home life this generation grew up with (see, you even have me worrying about using the term "greatest" now!) There's a whole introductory chapter about the formative years before the war in the book. You'll find a number of questions in the heading for discussion even without the book...

The period before the Depression in which the child of this generation grew up is one of economic prosperity, sounding very much like the one we are experiencing today, doesn't it? (even with Prohibition going on....) What do you remember of those years? Do you remember an abrupt change when the Depression hit?

What happened to the wives and families of the homeless, unemployed men "drifting across the continent" looking for work? To you? Do you remember these men?

To add a little to my comment"live my mom's life". I really did do some odd things like wash on Monday(I had a washer dryer waterheater could have washed any time day or nite) Iron on tuesday etc, Get the big meal at noon on Sunday, Holidays etc.As they years went by of course I could not maintain the role of total housewifery and Office eight hrs at least every day. We had a Garden Club in our neighbor hood that I took time off work to attend the meetings . We Moms talked about how hard it was to be like the TV Moms. Most of us worked at least part time and still drove carpools, attended afew club meetings, always PTA, and took kids to sports, music, etc. I was mostly so tired all the time I just wanted to sleep. The Daddy did understand a little by the late 5o's and often took children for trips so I could have two full days alone and in that , I was more fortunate than most of my women friends. When my daughter had been married awhile and I was visiting my new grandaugter (this is still 34 years ago) I began "scolding" my daughter about her lack of neatness and for wearing some old hippy clothes etc and for getting her food out of the community garden in Davis where she lived, So she put the baby to bed. Put her arms around me and said" Mother go home. I am not leading your life and certainly not Granny's life. I love you but- Just go home" and I did. That may have been the last time I commented on any of the younger generation's new ways of doing things. And it is where I got the comment for I had never seen that in myself. She however had . I love it that she was open and told me what she felt and we are great friends. Faith

Welcome to the world Noah,congratulations Anne.I am still waiting for my book.

Mal, I admire you and your writings,?Ithink my childhood was similar to yours ,I had to boil water for every thing as mentioned in my earler posts I feel at a loss now first no book! and not quite sure where we are going with this.I suddenly feel. I may not belong here .I have enjoyed it ,but feel it has changed course since we started. I may feel better When I get my book.Gladys

FAITH I, too, have "scolded" my daughter at times and then go home and hate myself! Fortunately, she takes it all in stride and still loves me - I'm so thankful for her! How many times have I apologized to her in emails? - I would hate to tell you!

We are all bandying (is that correct?) this word "norm" around and I don't think there is such a thing and I also think we all know that!

As Joan said we invented our own ideal of a woman, a happy home life and loving should be - we invented ourselves! We didn't know what "normal" was - but a "normal life" was my dream for years and years. And I made sure it happened, at least in my own eyes, I got my "normal" home. A loving husband, two lovely children and a nice home and I was so proud to be able to "do the wash on Mondays, iron on Tuesdays, be the room mother, girl scout leader, etc." Hey, I was NORMAL!

And then I grew up and realized finally that there is no such thing! It's an illusion - a mirage.

Gladys:

Of course you belong here!! Your comments are most important. If it seems that we change course and don't seem to know where we are going, it's for that very reason -- we don't know where we are going!! The "conclusion" will make itself evident without our even realizing how we got there. The voyage is often more stimulating, relevant, and important than the destination.

No, Joan, the prosperity after WWI was not like the prosperity now. Without getting too much into the science of economics, WWI veterans bought many stocks on margin -- they borrowed a buck here and a buck there in the hopes of bringing in the family bread and perhaps making a killing. Then came the crash and the creditors called their debts home. It was absolutely impossible for the majority of those who had gambled to pay their debts hence the stories of men jumping out of windows. Today we have many very young people - "kids" - jumping on the electronic bandwagon and taking much less of a chance than in the 1925-1929 period.

I would like to add that something very wonderful is happening in this Discussion Group. Participants are sharing personal stories that they have probably have not shared with their neighbors or even family members. There is a strong bonding going on here. Perhaps similar to the bonding that existed in Depression years.

Ropbby

Robby thank you Realize that I think it is because Iwasnt born here it just struck me.Although I have been an American,since we were first able to.I hope no offence taken, was just feeling a bit down a guess.

Gladys, is it gray, cold and rainy where you are today? We would be very interested in hearing about the kind of world you grew up in in England. Were you worried about war and your future?

Robby - what you describe here sounds an awful lot like what's going on here with our twenty-somethings thinking they can become instant millionaires, borrowing money to buy stock on the Internet (Day Traders) and maxed to the limit on credit cards..

Tell what it was like for you growing up before the Depression that is different from today. Were you secure, well-fed and reasonably happy with no real concerns about what the future might bring?

My father received a 100% disability pension after returning from the war in France. It was a real pittance (remember the veterans storming Washington and MacArthur's troops firing on them?) But it was a guaranteed monthly income and while we struggled, we did not go hungry. I lived near a village of 3,500 population. This was in the years beginning 1926. My house outside the village had no electricity nor was it near enough to the village to be connected to the water pipes. Over the kitchen sink was a very large water tank. I was allowed to pump the handle back and forth each day so as to bring in spring water to the overhead tank. When the tank was full, we had running water for a time.

My parents had a kitchen kerosene range. It was nice looking, had four burners and an oven, but the danger of fire was ever present in our minds. On the back of the range was a kerosene tank. To start the range, the burner was primed manually with a "shot" of gasoline. A metal stick was dipped into the burner, the wet end was lit, and placed back into the burner. The flame was as hot as any gas stove and my mother did some wonderful cooking on it. Unfortunately, the flame sometimes got too high and out of control. Because pouring water on it would have made it worse, it was necessary to dash out the back door with a spade, bring back a shovel full of dirt, and throw it on the burner. This, of course, put out the flame but required a two-hour cleaning job before the stove culd be used again.

Robby

Joan before depresion!!!I hate to lean on the fact,that all my childhood life was being poor.it was a divided life also.My father came from a ~`classy~`family as they were termed .my mother was left without Mother at age 11,she took over the care of five siblings/ she met my father during ww1just after he got back from the USA. she got pregnant,my fathers family told him to be honerable, and marry her.they also said no more money for Education etc ,also they didnt attend the weddding.when I was born my mother was desperatly ill ,so they took me to their home and kept me a year. they didnt want to give me back ,but my mother wanted me more.they really wanted me to have the best ,but wouldnt help unless I was turned over to them.Of course I wasnt ,my father worked as a coal miner,as I told here earlier,Britain had a general strike,starting with the miners,from then on it was all down hill.the only one left of my Dads family,Is a cousin Sheilha.she lives in Cal now we have met a few times Iam a lot older than her ,and she loves to hear about the times before,but is horrified of the way they treated my parents Gladys

I read a very good article by Phyllis Zauner in my May edition of the American Legion magazine. It was titled AMERICA REMEMBERS ALLIED INVAION. Her sub title read D-Day Museum Opening In New Orleans By Phyllis Zauner. The best way for me to tell you about this article is to quote from it.

”On June 6TH-56 years after America sent her best and brightest to the beaches of Normandy--the National D-Day Museum in New Orleans will open it doors to the world. It’s the only museum in the nation dedicated to the single-most decisive event of the 20th century, the invasion of Normandy by Britain, Canada, and the Unitd States.” This is America’s tribute to the men who made the invasion possible”

”The grand opening will be a grand affair. The day will start with a major parade from the museum to the New Orleans Arena where some 15,000 visitors will fill it. Scheduled dignitaries include Viscount Montgomery from England and Louisiana Gov. Mike Foster. Defense Secretary William Cohen is tentatively slated to speak to the group. Tom Brokaw will act as master of ceremonies. Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks plan to attend. France will send a frigate. National news networks will cover the event live. The worlds eyes will be on the museum”

Of course there is much more in the article, but this will let you readers know of that great museum and the wonderfull event planed in the rememberance of D-Day.

As I read the stories of others, I feel blessed. I was raised and loved by two parents and the only deprivations I can cite here are material things that help others to see what life was like before the depression.

As we had no electricity, a kerosene lamp was placed in each room. When more light was required for reading or sewing, the room would be brightened by bringing lamps in from other rooms. I was taught early how to light or extinguish the lamps and how to trim the wicks. I studied by kerosene lamp until the 6th grade.

For my early years we had the outdoor toilet. People nowadays joke about Sears Roebuck catalogs in outhouses but this is part of my memory. We did, however, have one modern convenience. We had a telephone which was the type one sees today only in museums -- a tall black column with the speaker protruding on top and the receiver hanging on the side. There was no dial tone, of course -- the operator answered, "Number please?" Numbers did not even have exchanges much less area codes.<>P>The road contained an equal amount of automobiles and horses and wagons. The road was paved with tar but one also had to watch the horse droppings. Once a week the oil man came along with his spigoted tanks. We would leave empty glass gallon jugs outside with tags attached to their necks and he would fill them with gasoline or kerosene as needed.

Robby

gladys, I enjoyed reading your post and your previous posts. I must agree with you; I,too, felt the course has changed from when we first started these discussions; I wonder how many would be posters saw this change "in course" and stayed a way. The indivdual human interest messages of these various posts are what propelled these discussions into being as popular as they are. I enjoy reading each indivduals experience of this era more so than having each facet of the era annalized. Of course you belong, gladys. Write from your experience of the times. I do. If you and others stop writing about the experience they had, then these discussions may stop.

Gladys! Robby!, these were your "good" old days! No war or depression yet! Was there an economic Depression in England before the war, Gladys?

Bill, are you going to the opening? Say hello to Tom for all of us! I remember Art telling us about the museum a few days ago...here is his post:

"In the chapter in the Greatest Generation titled Leonard "Bud" Lomel, the author wrote that Lomel a First Sergeant was in command of the Ranger platoon because his lieutenant had been reassigned just a few days before the invasion. That was a terrific responsibility to place on Lomel and the others in the platoon. It is my understanding that a museum will be opened soon in New Orleans at the site where the Higgins boats were built to commemorate D-Day. Hope that Bud Lomel will be invited to the ceremonies."

We'll be reading about Bud Lomel soon.. it would be great if he and Tom get together again. He was one of the first people interviewed for the Greatest Generation

I think that once we get into individual stories of the pre/post war days, our own individual stories will start again, Bill. Have you looked over the questions in the heading? Today we are looking to learn what life was like for this "greatest" generation before the Depression hit. It sounds as if the booming prosperity was not for all - Do you remember an abrupt change in your circumstances when the Depression hit? Do you remember the "armies" of unemployed drifters across America looking for work or handouts? Where were their families? Where were you?

Robby, so glad you came out and said it---something important is happening here. May have little to do with the book.

I just had a slap-my-forehead kind of moment this afternoon. Tom Brokaw went to a military 50-year reunion, heard stories, wrote a book. So, those who were in the military and fought in WWII have a lot to do with the genesis of this book. Men. Tom Brokaw wants to pay tribute to his father, both men. Despite acknowledging mistakes of racism and a cultural movement to get the woman back into the home, Brokaw never considers relinquishing this word "greatest." (The word "housewife" was coined in the '50's.) "Greatest"---this word of separation, of glory, of tribute is a very gendered word. Imagine a woman gathering stories from all the different walks of life during the depression and WWII. It's hard to see her wanting to lift this group higher than all others, wanting to separate out a group with the word "greatest."

All but one of us discussing this book are women! (Robby, bear with me.) We are women reading a man's tribute to his father's generation! Now, lest you think I'm saying more than I am, I'm merely adding to the discussion the thought that one reason for our varied responses to the book is that our life experiences as women then and now don't match (so easily) to this male gendered book. The title. The hope that "lessons" be passed along. Those pesky little mistakes of racism and woman's work. Very male.

I've been in several classroom discussions of (mostly) women discovering that this cultural yearning for the "good old days" is a continuing insult. It means people aren't listening, or if they are, women are not being believed. I remember someone suggesting that those of us who were white might say, "If I were a black woman, then would you believe me that I don't yearn for the good old days?"

Joan, I want you to consider something. I don't see the signs of this in an absolute way, but I just want you to consider how acceptable, maybe how wonderful, it would be if we as a group could take issue with this book in a major way. Tom Brokaw's human. If he's uninformed, unenlightened, why should we be silent? If you would consider this hypothetically, then even if we maintain this good mixture of varied reactions, we might not feel that we are "off track" if we don't see things Brokaw's way.

By the way, whether Faith was 14, 17 or 25, I believe her experience is well within the norm of how women have been treated. Family secrets of such treatment were (is?) also the norm. People didn't tell or were often dismissed if they did. Some just prayed about it, as my mother did. She had no models to follow in speaking up.

Joan it was a nation al Strike in 1920. I was only two when it started,but it went on long enough for me to remember,re picking coal as I stated earlier.also my father was a miner,I am ~A coal miners Daughter`I can remember ,no credit cards in those days,few shop keepers could afford to carry people.I bless the one who gave us credit ,just for things to live on Bread milk etc.My mother used to pay it off regularly,A shilling a week.when things got better.I remember taking that shilling untill I was fourteen yrs of age.the last payment he gaves us back ,what a man.we had just got on out feet when the depression started,but we had gone through so much before it didnt seem as bad.thanks For encouragement,I just didnt want to feel I was just talking about bad times,which lets face ,A strike depression,and a war in our own back yard!!dont call for happy writing main thing now is ,I feel one lucky woman to have made great strides,such as being able to discuss,on here and meet so many interesting people.Gladys

Oops. Hi, Bill, Pat. Men

"....our own individual stories will start again," you wrote, Joan. I hadn't noticed that the individual stories had stopped. Faith's story, Mel's story, Ella's story, Barbara's story, Joan's story, Gladys' story, Robby's story, my story. These are individual stories of the last 100 or so posts.

I love your stories, Gladys. Don't you go anywhere.

Betty after your post I feel more acceptable again. The world before the depression was the world my parents came to adult hood in and their storys were not so great. My moms family were always moving from 1898 to 1959 she moved everywhere until my husband built her a house. My dad scoured the whole of California for work from 1916 when his mother told him he had to earn his own way . June this is a personal story and it is really funny to have to defend myself. in an open forum. I really dont get it. When I was 5 years old I began seeing people at our back door asking for food, and in the summer we lived in camps to save money for the winters rent, this after my father lost our house at Tahoe. Yes, I think life changed abruptly for the 5 per cent of the people who had money and they lost the good old days and the rest of them went on in the best way they could. Those ordinary people were Women who Brokaw said "now went to work." Women have worked everysince there was a woman and not in their own home believe me. My Great grandmother was a professional cook, as was my grandmother and my mother worked in laundrys and I worked at twelve as a Mothers Helper So Betty I think I agree with your post. Oh and hi every one . Gladys I like hearing about your life in England and here. Faith

thank you Betty and Faith ,I was just worried I was in a different country then,and as a lot of people here still dont understand my accent,I am from the north, and it is a cross beween Scotland ,and England .In other words ,I dont speak the queens English,Isay glass,instead of glarse.Bath instead of barth which to me is right :-0

As some of you have posted, I do remember the "bums" as we called them coming to my grandmother's back door when I was small. The men were polite and sat on the porch while she fixed them a plate; I was told to stay inside but remember watching them outside the screen door.

Some of what TB has said certainly rings true - our generation was frugal. Oh, indeed! Some of you have already told stories about that, those were "common traits" of the depression years weren't they?

And, Betty, the stories the women are telling, perhaps for the first time, may be because of another trait we were taught in our generation. "Never wash your dirty linen in public" we were told over and over and, as you know, what you are taught in the very early years remains forever.

Robby, I had never heard of a stove like that and I laughed until the tears came at the thought of someone running to shovel dirt to throw on a stove - what a funny cartoon that would be! We ought to ask some of our banner people to do just that! I can see the look of "horror" on a young woman's face when she first encountered a shovelful of dirt on her clean stove!!! Funny, funny! You and Gladys are a hoot - I love the laughs you have brought me! Stay, Gladys, stay with us and share some more stories!

Betty,

Sorry, but I couldn't let this one go by--you said, "The word "housewife" was coined in the '50s"? The Oxford English Dictionary cites the first known usage of "housewife" as 1225.

Also, you said that most of the people posting here are women and I've been very aware of that, too. This discussion seems to be a direct contradiction to the Brokaw books where most of his stories are about men--not all, just most. I am reminded of the many times I have gone to a party or a group of any kind where either the men never said anything because the women never gave them a chance to get a word in or they all congregated in the kitchen or in a corner and talked about the things they were interestd in. I can remember asking my husband once why he didn't have much to say during the evening and his honest and truthful reply was that he didn't have a chance. Perhaps that same phenomonon has occured in this group?

Phyll

Nonsense, Phyll. With a medium like this a man can jump in just as fast as a woman can, housewife 1225 or 1950!

Mal

Gladys----Of course you belong here. I want to know more about England because it is interesting. I'm sure if I could hear you talk, I would understand you. Whatever accent you have, it can't match some of the ones I have decyphered!

Now don't get fiesty on me, or I shall have to come and tie you to the chair so that you will stay with us. Your story about paying the shopkeeper a shilling at a time until finally the bill was paid really got to me.

and the rest of you--I am really enjoying all the memories of those days. I don't think there is anything like hearing from people who were actually witnesses. All of what I know personally about the Great Depression are the stories I was told and the effects I saw on my parents. You are all just wonderful.

Maryal

Dry cleaners did not exist in those days. My mother died in February, 1930, when I was nine years old. In the years before that I can remember my mother sitting outside the back door when the weather was nice and sewing up rips in my knickers (you did get that, didn't you -- knickers) or clean stains off our clothes with gasoline.

Water pipes had now been laid in the road so now we had running water in the recently installed bathroom, but only cold water. It was to be some years before a hot water heater was installed so it was still necessary to boil water and pour it into the tub. Cold water would be added to this boiling water and I could take a luxurious bath in two inches of water. We could, however, go to the toilet in the way "civilized" people do.

Robby

Phyll,

I knew we'd been cleaning that house for more than 50 years!

Phyll-----Even Harry had a huswif. Hehehehehe.

Betty, You'd think we'd have the darn place clean enough by now, wouldn't you?

Maryal/Harry,

Are you still alive? I had thought maybe all of we rowdy pilgrims had jumped ship--or is it jumped horse?

Phyll

I'd like to say a word about cultural changes in society as the generations move along. It's interesting how most of us are caught up in the culture of our own time without pausing to examine its ethics. My mother was as fairminded and honest as anyone in this world could be -- never allowing me to speak of anyone of no matter what color or religion in a demeaning way and seeing to it that I never used such words as "nigger" even at home. (Yes, I know I am using the word here but as you will see, the story can not be told any other way.) There were no black people in our Northern rural community at that time. Yet I doubt if she ever saw the "discourtesy" of a minstrel show with white "end-men" with blackened faces and I know I never thought about it.

My father and I liked to sing. He and I would often harmonize together as we sang "Oh, some folks say that a nigger don't steal; but I caught one in my cornfield - way down - way down - way down yonder in the cornfield." (That was a popular barbershop quartet song in those days.) Somehow when we sang it, it was OK, thinking only of the harmony of the song and not the harmony of the races. There's no way that I would use that word today even in a song but everyone who liked to sing harmony sang the song. It was wrong and I know it now but I am trying to emphasize how we are all captives of the society and times in which we live and are not able to get outside it to objectively examine what we are doing.

Life was VERY VERY different 70 years ago and today's generation will not be able to understand how we thought and how we acted if they try to measure us by today's yardstick.

Robby

Robby...Are you sure there were no dry cleaners in 1930? My husband's father owned a small grocery store from the early 20s to the mid 40s, and right next door was a dry cleaning shop. We lived, for a couple of years, in the old family homestead right across the street and old Mrs. Duhaime was still running the shop in the early 50s! People used to try to sell her their boxes of buttons, but she would just laugh at them. Incidentally, my father-in-law, whom I never met because he died when my husband was a senior in high school, fed half of the east side of town during the depression. Some of those people were still sending money 10 years later, having kept track of every cent they felt they owed him. Sounds like they were all "the greatest" to me!

Love...Katie

Katie:

My mother died in 1930 and I was speaking of the 1926-27 years before that. In addition, I was in a rural area and that might have had something to do with it.

Robby

A favorite memory. In a very small Texas town where I grew up (born in Florida), all my mother's brothers (with 5 children each) and her parents lived within a few miles of each other. My grandmother's house, that place of cooking peaches and constant love, was within walking distance. In a town 15 miles away lived my grandmother's mother. (Grandmother born at turn of the century, greatgrandmother born 26 years earlier.) When my greatgrandmother came to spend a day and night with her daughter, my grandmother, I was usually asked to come, too. Occasionally, my grandparents had to be gone to a church meeting or something for an hour or so, and I was specifically invited then to keep Nannie company during their absence, and then to spend the night. I loved that time at her house. I loved the stories Nannie told---a favorite one of my great-greatgrandmother's hiding in a wagon until several "Indians" were gone.

The memory I wanted to share, though, of one of those overnight stays was about a sexy dance that just happened to be on the television the minute I turned it on. My greatgrandmother Nannie was shouting to turn off that sinful thing right at the moment my grandparents opened the front door, back from their outing. Since the television was close to the front door, my grandparents looked quickly to see what needed to be turned off. Instantly, they visibly relaxed, my grandfather smiled and walked into the next room. My grandmother told Nannie that the dance was ballroom dancing and that she thought it was alright for me to watch Lawrence Welk.

ROBBY...I even tried to look up 'dry cleaning' in my trusty old Collier's, but all I could find was an article about solvents, and NO dates! Hehehe! Being rural most likely had lots to do with it, but I can remember the home cleaning of spots with naphtha...we never used gasoline.

Betty:

Yes, each generation looks at the world through its own glasses. Do you, and others here, think it will be possible for the current generations to understand the 1920s and 1930s? Will it be by just reading words? Hopefully, we are making history live.

Robby

BETTY...that's hilarious! You must be young...my mother was born in 1901!

I got my copy of Tom Brokaw's book today. Thank you. I am enjoying it. I have read all your messages of April 26th &27th and I truly believe all of you are a great generation and I am happy to be here. I was born in l925 in New York City. We lived in an apartment in an old building. My mother Had 3 sisters who had apartments in other buildings nearby. When rents were due the sisters pooled their funds to pay rents. It was the goal of three families to get the rents paid for all. We shared everything, including food. clothing and last but not least problems. My mother was the oldest so all the problems came to our house. We were a community within a communiy. We certainly shared the great depression.+

Partyday:

You say that "you" are a great generation but if you were born in 1925, you are part of it. The Depression was a part of your life as well. Please continue to share.

Robby

Yes, Ella, I heard that phrase used in my "growing up" years. My grandmother always lived with us - so you might say that I had two mothers. My grandmother lived with us until she passed on (in her 80's). My mother lived with my family until she passed on (in her 80's). Your bringing up this remark tonight really made me laugh, as I thought about the last time I heard it.

My mother was still with us and my daughter was about 7 or 8 years of age. Our washer had quite working, so I gathered up the laundry to take out to a coin-operated laundromat. When I told them where I was going, little Nancy looked at me and said, "You mean we are going out and wash our dirty clothes in public."

The mention of "bums", also brought back memories of when my only uncle would come to visit. I would run upstairs and hide, as I was afraid of him. He was a "bum" who lost one arm jumping off of a freight train. He lost his life crossing a highway in California when I was a teenager. My dad had taken him in several times, getting him a job and clothing. But, he never stayed long, Uncle Ben just had the wonderlust spirit.

Robby you were talking about "water". My dad came over from Germany as a teenager and learned to be a baker. To me he seemed to know how to do everything - a very resourceful person. We had a large white sink in our kitchen with two faucets which had running city water. Then, there were two hand pumps, one on each end. One pump was used for water from our Artesian well, and the other was for rain water from a cistern which contained the run-off water from the roof. So that is just a small insight into my "growing-up" memories.

Thanks to everyone's comments, this is really developing into a unique "happening" place.

Robby, I liked your remark, "we are making history live". That is true for us. As for the current generation reading and truly understanding what our lives were like back then, I don't believe that that is possible. Isn't it said that, until one experiences it, it is hard to understand.

Oh, the memories are rolling in tonight! I just remembered one summer when my Grandpa Stubbs was living with us. He spent summers with us working in our vegetable garden in northern Massachusetts and winters with my Aunt Polly down south in Rhode Island where it was warm. Grandpa was always convinced he was sick, so much so that he walked the five miles downtown to the doctor every week to have him listen to his heart. Then he'd walk back home again, go upstairs to his room and read his Bible and thank the Lord he was all right. Grandpa's cure for everything was Vicks VapORub, and he smelled to high heaven all the time.

Well, Grandpa drank Postum, and he had to have his cup of Postum in the morning or all Hades broke out. My brother and I were in the kitchen one morning, and Grandpa came in from the garden for his cup of Postum. Now, a box of Fels Naptha had broken and my aunt put the soap in a bowl and set it on the sideboard by the soapstone sink. Grandpa barged in the door from the garden where he'd been since six a.m., made his Postum and headed right for that bowl. Before my brother and I could stop him, he had put three large spoonfuls of Fels Naptha in his cup. The next time we looked at him, he was covered with suds and sputtering to high heaven. He stomped upstairs saying, "That Edythe is aiming to kill me. Yes, by God, she is." Edythe was his daughter, my aunt.

Grandpa went to the doctor twice that week. Once for his heart and once for the soap.

Mal

Mal, that story of your grandpa and the fels naptha and the "doctor's visits" twice that week, had me laughing so hard. You really expressed it so well. It puts me in mind of some of Thurber's works. Just loved it.

Eddie

Yes, Robby, discrimination was present during those Depression years. We lived in a neighborhood in a city in Iowa (not some hot, dusty town in a sleepy Southern state) where religious intolerance ran very high. Because we were a minority (Roman Catholic) in a predominately Protestant community, as children we were singled out for intensive harrassment. Every day going to school was torture for me and my siblings, because on the way to the parochial school we attended, hordes of neighborhood children would scream epithets at us and throw whatever they could find to toss. My mother was afraid to hang out the washing in nice weather because of the insults she'd hear over the fence, and my brothers were continually coming home with black eyes and scraped knees. The authorities did nothing, and it was only when the neighbors had ransacked our mailbox and torn up all the delivered mail, including my father's paycheck, that something was done, and that only because my father went to the U.S. Attorney. The blatant harrassment stopped, but the underlying resentment still prevailed, and my mother finally begged my father to move. To this day, I can occasionally hear the echo of those mean, childish voices Screaming "Cat-licker! Cat-licker!"

Lorrie

It would appear from some of the memories posted here that hardships during the Depression were not only physical hardships but hardships brought on by discrimination. Of course discrimination exists today as well but those of us from those early years would like current generations to realize that we had no recourse. If there were laws against it (naturally the Constitution was there), in general they were not enforced because the people in law enforcement were themselves caught up in the ethical culture of the times as I mentioned in an earlier posting.

People of different religious persuasions, for example, tended to congregate together - often for protection, either physical or emotional. The draft in the 1940s changed that and changed that IMMEDIATELY. To be drafted into the military meant not only to be wrenched away from home but to be thrown into a true melting pot. The guy in the bunk next to yours might have had an entirely different economic and/or religious background. That is not to say we liked it. There were many fist fights but the exigencies of war said: "Do it, dogface, whether you like it or not." A popular song of that time told the story -- "You're in the Army, Mr. Jones."

I should add, to our nation's shame, that this melting pot did not include a black-white mixture.

Robby

Mal, a ride in a Piper Cub - what a wonderful thing to experience. I know. When I was very young (he was eight years older than I), my brother was taking flying lessons at our local airport. One Saturday, he paid his instructor to take me up for a short spin around the area. What a wonderful feeling of being "up there".

I loved your telling of the Postum "event". I still drink Postum (coffee favored) almost every day. The next best thing to coffee.

There was all kinds of religious and ethnic discrimination in the small city where I grew up. I have already posted that there were pockets of ethnicity all over the town, and no two intermingled or mixed. Not only that, there was discrimination against people like me who were handicapped. Kids in school could be terribly cruel.

"What's that ugly thing on your leg?"
"How come you walk like that?"
"Don't you dare get near me. My mother says if I get near you I'll catch it."
"My father told me infantile paralysis makes you crazy. It eats up your brain. That's why you're so dumb ha ha!"

I remember kids laughing and pointing their fingers if I fell down, which I did...often. There were times when I'd be walking with two other girls. They'd look at each other and walk fast right away from me.

There was a boy older than I was in the school, who had a paralyzed arm because of polio. He was teased unmercifully. I am pleased to tell you that he grew up to be a very successful New York City psychiatrist.

Mal

"Life was VERY VERY different 70 years ago and today's generation will not be able to understand how we thought and how we acted if they try to measure us by today's yardstick."

Robby,

I have tried to say this very thing and especially a few years ago when the anniversary of the dropping of the A bomb was observed. I read a couple of comments in which the gist was "How could America do such a terrible thing?" and so on. I tried to tell someone that the events of that time could not be judged by the standards of today. That they had to live in those terrible war years and to experience those agonizing times before they judged that event. By any measurement it was a terrible thing but so was the bombing of Pearl Harbor, the Bataan Death March, the Battle of Guadalcanal and on and on, all of the atrocities that occured. How many young American lives were saved by the A bomb, do you suppose?

Phyll

Phyll---Many Japanese lives were also saved by the dropping of those awful bombs, since they were determined to fight to the last. What a terrible irony.

Maryal

Maryal,

That is absolutely true but I am afraid that we weren't interested in saving Japanese lives in those days.

War is just that, isn't it----a cruel irony?

That reminds me, Robby, you made the point a while back that games (sports) are a form of war. That set me to thinking of how much war has become a "game"----or maybe, it always was. I am thinking mainly of chess and that is a very old game based on the strategy of battle. And how about the modern Nintendo and Game Boy? Aren't many of them involved in battles and war? It must be a primitive instinct that we will never totally erase.

Phyll

Goodmorning, last evening I went to bed giggling over Malryns stories. And also I remembered my uncle in Sparks had an airplane and gave lessons. He came to Tahoe oftern and one time took all we children to the airstrip and two at a time gave us a trip over Sparks and Reno. It was frightning and exhilerating. The view from the plane was beautiful and strange. My brothers were able to go in my Uncles biplane two seater, in one of the cockpits, but Uncle took the girls in a barrowed little piper cub with a cabin. This was the summer of my 10th year 1937. We were hearing arguments daily from all the Uncles and my Grandfather about the value of helping Spain another thing was happening that was scary. We had several large Italian families at The Lake who were good friends. The boys in the family in the early 30's were told by Mussolini's government that they had to come home and be drafted. This is the way I remember. Even though they had citizenship being born here because their parents were born in Italy they had dual citizenship. Therefore Italy could legally call them up. But legally (here) they didn't have to go. A particular friend of the one family did go. He came home in two years as had been promised and immediatly joined the U.S. army and this was well before 1941. Every day at school in the early 30's we had civic lessons and took clippings to school.My family was in an uproar when the Japanese sunk our War Ship the Panya(sp) and som e other American craft on the river and then strafed the surviviors as they tried to swim to safety. I know all my male grownup relatives were in an uproar and thought we would go to War then. It preceded as I remember the knowledge we later had of the Rape of Nanking. Discrimination that I was aware of in the 3o's and early 40's was more toward the "poor" or "lower classes" even though it was not their fault. My family had Highschool educations all through the 18ooand early 1900,nd were considered well educated though only one or two uncles completed Engineering courses in University. We had what were considered good manners and we spoke English very well all of us, and no slang allowed in our house etc. yet because of the lack of material things I was made to feel inferior. I compensated by getting straight A's right through my freshman year in Highschool and continued to study all my life. After the war when the boys were home again that type of discrimination gradually disappeared. At least from my consciousness. And I then became aware of racial discrimination. In 1946 there were signs up in stores in little valley towns that said 'No Japs Allowed" Mother would not shop in those places. When the Japanese came back to farm their own land, the banks owned it. That was another story. Faith

Joan, in answer to your questions of the day above, I was in junior and senior high school during the early war years and, although we were aware of the war I'm sure, it seemed very far away and was not the main "focus" of conversation among us. However, when my BIL was drafted and my favorite teacher's husband went to war, my interest peaked and I became very aware of Hitler and the war news.

Racial discrimination: "I'm free, WHITE, and 21" - was the quote of the day. And yes, religious discrimination, I can remember the adults talking about the Catholics wanting to "own" or "control" the United States. Heavens!

Don't you all agree that we have come a long way to eradicate racial and religious discrimination?

For all the veterans in our midst:

"As I look back now, I realize that my time in the Army was the happiest time of my life, not because I liked the Army, and God knows there was nothing to like about a war, but I liked it because I was YOUNG! I didn't particularly like the guys I hung out with, but you know what? Today I love every damn one of them" - Neil Simon, playwright.

All these overt acts of discrimination that have been described -- open discrimination against the poor, the handicapped, the Catholics, the "negroes," the "spics," the "greaseballs," the "dagos," the "squareheads," the "kikes," -- whatever discrimination you have been remembering -- are you saying that this was practiced by the greatest generation?

Robby

In 1935 in Vallajo there were many black children in our school. I was unacquainted with black people since there were none around Tahoe. I was so ashamed when a boy in class began openly making fun of a little classmate (second grade) and she began crying. Instead of helping her a whole group of children jumped in and started hitting her. My teacher came out and rescued her and because I was standing back and really shy about all this she asked me to take the little girl with me as I walked home part of the way she did. I became a friend of this little girl and took her home. My mother said she could not come in the house. I was ashamed and helpless. I could not understand it and had to accept it. I thought because my mom never allowed words in our house like Robby wrote above, that she was different but no one much was different. My older sis and brother were quick to let me know in subtle ways to obey this unspoken(until this incident) prejudice in our family. It extended to a other races to and My parents hide our own background of American Indian in my paternal family. As far as the Jewish Problem went(that was what my parents called it) you just knew their was a conspiricy (sp) through the banks to get America into the war. Children learn by example and by watching what adults do. As a first and second grader I was introduced to prejudice and it became a suppressed part of my own character. I had to confront it as an adult and so did all of us and it certainly is not wiped out of the world but like my mothers house it is politically correct to not say the words but keep the secrets of racial discrimination alive. Faith

Ya know....a lot of these conversations feel familiar. A deja vu feeling. Something about a few of us not ready to wholeheartedly embrace the "lessons" coming from a generation that we're not ready to comfortably call "greatest" feels familiar. Not the content of the discussion, necessarily, but the tone of the discussion.

Then it hit me. This feels like talking to my Mother. My method of "talking" is to examine, not accept things at face value, question the always first-response positive outlook of Mother's. Sometimes her constant positive outlook drives me crazy. Her make-do attitude, do the best with what you have attitude, is a really good way to approach life...for some things. For the times you have no choice. But it can't be used for everything. It can't be used when children's health is at stake, or one's self-esteem. Sometimes in life you have to take a stand and say, no, this isn't good enough.

So, the deja vu comes when posters here get uncomfortable with the stories of abuse of women. When comments are made that the discussion has "changed." When there is a push to get back to the more positive memories of how adversity grew strong character. My mother would be in that group. She would hate disagreeing with Tom Brokaw. She would be uncomfortable with too many details of "dirty laundry," as someone called it, would not enjoy dwelling on anything "negative."

By and large, this skill of doing the best with what you have is a strength, no question. Sometimes, I could use a little more of it in my life and wonder how in the world my mother made it with 5 children and very few resources. There are other times, though, that I'm so glad to have the skill of not making do, of not settling for discrimination or abuse or being discounted.

Some of us are answering the daily question into our posts in a very well written manner, but then there are those of us who are just reminiscing. My "deja vu" feeling here is because some of the posts are so like ones I have read in other discussions in SN. Been there, done that! Think I'll get cracking on the book and see just eactly what it is that Tom Brokaw is passing along to us.

Book discussions, Katie? What have I missed? Really, no fooling, which ones?

Katie:

An excellent idea! Absorbing what Tom Brokaw is saying and then, in the tried and true American way, agreeing or not agreeing based upon your personal experiences.

Robby

Faith, what a great mind you have. Mal, you are going to lead her through the writing mazes, aren't you?

BETTY...there are 19 discussions in the World War II folder alone. Start at the beginning of each one.

Thanks, ROBBY. I'll start right now, reading while I have my lunch.

Katie (big grin)...no thanks.

I don't know about anyone else, but I find this discussion extremely valuable.

Mal

Katie hi,Iwould love to read the book but havnt got it yet,so have to go with memories.I was a young girl during the Spanish civil War.Iremember seeing Ingrid bergman in for whom the bells toll.In answer to the hitler one ,he was on every one,s lips ,yrs before the war,lots of people in high places visited him inc,as isaid the then `prince of wales`he had all kinds of entertaining device,s,a staircase that that collapsed.he was very popular.then all at once it seemed all we heard was him sceaming on the radio ,no tv then.Even then no one it seems took him seriously. all the time he was building up ,chamberlin the prime minister assured us all after ,the peace pact talks,no War in our time.It was right after that that we were issued our gas masks,when he marched into Poland.We were really caught napping. I can smell the awful smell of those gas masks now ,At first we didnt move without them,then we got tired of dragging them round when it was evident we didnt need them ,thank god . Mal I know what you mean about children being cruel ,they will single people out and the awful thing is ,you join in when you are kids ,just to keep you from that situation yourself . has any one else not got their books? gladys

I do not have the book yet either, Gladys. I remember in our newsreels we saw pictures of Mr. Chamberlin. I can still see him, in a Derby, a Chesterfield coat, and Umbrella, and he is standing in front of a microphone placed on a landing ramp where he has just gotten off some kind of transportation saying those things about the peace treaties protecting England. We talked about it in school. I went to a very small school starting with 3rd grade and we had to bring clippings form magazines and newspapers to school for Civics class. All eight grades then exchanged all the things going on and talked about them so we were very much aware of the world happenings even in our isolation in the 30s up in that mountain resort town. We had radio in our home from time I can remember and in summer we had newsreels and went to movies 1x aweek. There we saw a lot more. We saw Newsreels of Hitler ranting and raving and my grandfather would come home just shaking his head. We had very little cash but always my folks managed a newspaper and some magazines. We also had a library and people who had magazines traded them back and forth through the library. Also at the one Inn that stayed open all year there was a Barber shop that had everything to read you can think of and he was a grand old fellow for he let us kid read out of these things and sometimes he would donate New Yorker to the school and our teacher would read all the cutting edge writers of the 20 and 30 to us. Those were the days of our childhood and we remember all the fun and the games and laughter of growing up too. I know in our town we were out playing every evening and life could seem care free.at the time for it did not seem possible to really have WAR. Faith

Well, I have missed out on all of these wonderful conversations! But, I just finished reading 50 messages and will have to get back here after I have digested it all.

I am baby sitting for the little ones until the newest comes home with mommy. He is so cute!

Born in the mid-twenties I am a member of the Great Generation. We lived OK during the great depression. My father was a driver of an ice cream truck for Castle's Ice Cream Company in Northern New Jersey. We never were rich (never had a telephone) but on the other hand my father had a job throughout the depression years so we never went hungry. Volunteered for the Marine Corps in 1942 and went to the South Pacific twice during my four years in the Marine Corps. One of the lucky ones - was never wounded.

Faith ,yes he was a gentleman,we all thought he died of a broken heart soon after the peace talks. hi Anne,I bet the baby is a buety judging by the pictures of the other I have seen.?My grandson ,and two great,s just went back to alaska the weather here was so bad they were glad to get back. dont feel to bad then ,if I am not the only one without book.

Yes, I was born of this generation, and watched Hitler's rise to power. As a Jewish child, I lived in fear that Hitler would conquer the world. I was taunted by my German ancestry neighbors, who promised that Hitler would come for me. I listened in terror to their praise of this monster, the wonderful things that he was doing for Germany, and would soon be doing in America, including taking care of the "Jewish problem." I was beaten up many times by the children of these American nazis as well as my school mates, because of my being Jewish. I was accused of killing Christ.

I heard my rabbi describe the horrors that were going on in Germany, and watched as tears streamed down his face. I still shudder when I think of it. Those who did not live through such agony can never completely understand. I am most fortunate that my cruel neighbors' promise did not come true.

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Bob C

Bob so glad you joined us ,what a story!1 looking forward to more.Gladys

Still enjoying all of the heart wrenching, heart warming, wonderful post in here. I am patiently waiting for my book to arrive also.

Nice to see everyone and a welcome to the many new people that are joining this fine discussion.

Keep all your wonderful thoughts and memories coming, as they are most enjoyable and we all will get on to the subject at hand when EVERYONE has a book to read!! ha.

A special hello to Gladys.

Jenny

Gladys, I'm curious. You said, "I know what you mean about children being cruel ,they will single people out and the awful thing is ,you join in when you are kids ,just to keep you from that situation yourself." What situation were you keeping yourself from?

Mal

no special one for me Mal,just an example of how kids get drawn in ,because they are afraid.Like when I was afaid to show my socks when scalded.I was afraid of being jeered at.

hello Jenny nice to see you .gladys

Thank you, Gladys. Now I understand.

Fear and ignorance cause more problems than almost anything else in this world. That's a very strong statement, but as I read these posts about discrimination, I believe in my heart that it's true.

Mal

Bob welcome we need your input. I have a lump in my throat for all the times you must have heard about the "Jewish Problem" and you see as a child I never knew what the problem was and I was in Colorado, 1946 with husband at School of Mines in Golden when I first began confronting the insidious way words like that can influance a child. We met so many wonderful young people from all walks of life who were in University after the war and had wonderful arguments and we were exposed to some really thinking people and I began then to see more clearly and with my own interpretations of what I read and heard. Still I must admit it took more than awhile for me to clean out all the old cobwebs and eventually I did. I should say, I hope I did. I still bump into some old scripts in my head and have to tear them up. Harry Stick with us too. I had two family members in Marines but one was in Korea, and I really don't know what outfits. I say God Bless America because we can all speak openly of these things now . Faith

I was born April 23, l915 in Omaha, Nebraska. We moved to Chicago in 1929. I had to go to work during the the depression instead of going to college because of the depression. My story is a little long so I will shorten this by telling you about our family during the War. Both my brot hers were volunteers. My youngest brother had to get my parents' signatures to sign up. He was a gunner in the 8th Air Force and flew 25 missions over Germany> He died June 26, l998 but lived to see his book published, "The Cold Blue Sky" Everyone who has read it says it was the best account of the Air War they have read. It was warm as well as factual

My husband's family had 8 brothers in the service. They are in the Library of Congress.

MINODEL I for one would love to hear the long versions. Eight from one family must be a record of some kind. And can you give us a way to locate your husbands book. I have done some companion duty with women who are living alone and don't drive and I do that for them and sometimes fix a meal and join them. I have on e friend who I did this for every weekend for 5 years between her 97th and 102nd birthdays. I loved her. Her story was wonderful. so much is lost of the personal history of the world when we don't have the individual stories. Gee Betty maybe we whould gather the Greatest Women in Our Generation,that would be from 1890 to 2000. Because for some reason I feel the woman of my Moms generation and my grandaughters are still facing the same problems for the most part along with the discrimination base on color or religion the discrimination towards women who wont keep the secrets is vast. Faith

Most children of this generation never heard of World War 2. They have no idea what their grandfathers went through for their freedom.

Sallie - how do you know that? I just don't think one can make such sweeping statements. Every kid I've talked to knows about WWII, if only about Hitler. I think you give kids too little credit.

How sweet of you to write what what you did. You asked about the book "The Cold Blue Sky". It was published in l998 and can be found at Barnes & Noble, Borders, Amazon.com. and other book stores.

Yes, we were told that my husband's family had the most sons serving in World War 11. My husband was the 8th one to join. Fox Movietone News made movies of them when they all came home. (Short News Film) shown in movie houses at that time. I was the oldest of three. As I wrote before My youngest brother (who wrote his autobiography) died two years ago. His brother who was three years younger served five years as a radio operator. They were both volunteers. Thank you for your interest. Minnie Odelson

Just discovered this forum. Haven't been to Sr. Net for a long time. I've had Tom Brokaw's books since they came out. Brought back many memories. I was in Civil Air Patrol in WW2 and do have some stories I could tell from the Miami FL area. Like when Clark Gable was training on Miami Beach and we used to go over to Retreat and try to see him. LOL! HI Gladys. Remember me?????

Faith, that ship the Japanese sunk was named the Panay and the year was 1933. My daddy was teaching me to read by having me read the newspaper headlines. I remember that one in particular because that was when he told me we would go to war with them one day.

I have been lurking more than posting lately because I am feeling guilty about my privileged life during my childhood in the depression years.

But I first heard of Hitler and Mussolini and the Japanese in China right when they were in the news. I do not remember much about Stalin until we were well into WWII. Born in 1929, I was a young child. I can remember an uncle touring Germany came back with a tale he regaled the whole family with of having gone into one of the night club type restaurants in the mid thirties, he gave it a German name which I cannot now recall, and Hitler himself came in with a group. Everyone stood and heiled immediately, but Uncle Artie's table of Americans did not. They were made to feel most uncomfortable for a while, and finally left.

I don't remember hearing much about the Spanish Civil War. My father and my relatives put most of their conversation into the German situation. Being an Army Brat, my playmates also discussed these things quite matter-of-factly, sharing what our daddies said was going to happen.

Yes, there was terrible prejudice in the United States back then. The greatest hatred was for the Jews, and this was widespread everywhere. The "colored" were despised in the South and barely tolerated in the North. Italians and Irish were considered not quite bright, and of course they were Catholic, which was foreign and therefore disgusting. Only the WASPS were clean, decent people of leadership caliber. Well, WWII helped change that. First, our boys, as Robby has already pointed out, had to rub elbows and share pup tents with some of these strange types. They found out they were just the same! Then the GI Bill sent them all to school together. Oh yes, we are much better today. But there is a long way to go yet. Some are still teaching their children to hate.

I remember well June 10, 1940. My Daddy and I drove from Virginia to Fort Knox, Kentucky, his new post. France fell that day. We were in Such a state of dread. On top of everything else, we had close relatives in occupied countries of Europe.

I was at Knox that summer of tears. We saw the last dress parade of the 13th Cavalry. Oh, the tears! Then we heard the loud rattling. Clankety, clankety, clankety. The horses were led off the parade ground for the very last time, soon to be taken off the post entirely. Onto the parade ground, for both the first and the Only time, came the new horses of the 13th. Tanks. The First Armored was born at Knox that summer, and the Second Armored that fall. Very, very emotional.

Just an aside; they always say no one ever sees the gold trains while their cargo is being removed there at Knox. Not so when I was in 6th grade there. No PEOPLE other than the totally armed guards saw it, but the elementary school was right above the tracks where they took the gold shipments off. The guards did not even turn their heads and look at we little kids while we gathered at recess and watched it all.

My wife of 52 years sometimes wonders why I persist in watching scenes of battle activity that took place in some theater of war during WWII. Firstly, it is a reminder of the price some of those guys paid for the freedom we now take for granted. None of those people had much to say about what their life threatening duty called for. Circumstances put them in the line of fire and some were lucky and some weren't. The lucky ones came home. Secondly, the U. S. Army really didn't try very hard to keep its personnel informed as to what was going on. What little I know about WWII action, I learned mostly from the documentaries. I was one of the lucky ones. My unit was preparing to participate in the invasion of the Japanese islands when the war ended. Losalbern

My what an interesting forum.........

I was a teenager living in Wilmington California at the start of WW2. I didn't know any Germans folks or Jews for that matter. I'm not saying there wenen't, or that they didn't live next door, I just didn't know. There most likely are many folks who visit this forum who were raised in "In this age of innocence" in this regard. We simply didn't care about anyone's natinality. My school, Banning High was predominately White with many Mexican and Blacks at the time. We had another race of people that I then became aware of and they were Japanese. I went to school with all of these kids and we had our kid fights etc. The Mexicans came to the front because of the Pachuko (sp) wars with the Navy guys. What I'm taking a long tme to say is that I was shocked when they hauled my friends away in busses and trains for Manzinar (American concentration camps for American Japenese). It hurt to see them go. Later much after the war I became aware of the Holocaust and what the Germans doid to those innocent people. I wasn't privy to the shame and ridicule Bob and unknown thousands of American Jews had to endure and anyone with a shred of compassion should be affected by the stories we hear. Those were very hard times for many of us and not because of our race. We were dirt poor and our friends were just as poor and wanna know something....I didn't know we were poor, all of my friends were also. At aged 16 I was off to the war and soon found myself the target of Japanese fighter bombers and Kamakazis. I've grown a lot since those days and I pray my grand children will never have to experience anything similar.

How small this world has become. In later years when I was a Detective on the Los Angeles Police Department I took Tom Brokow through one of, or possibly his first field assignment when he was a cub reporter on a residential burglary case in Panorama City in the San Fernando Valley.

Oh Mary Page I am so glad I dropped back in. Your story is so great. Thanks for the real name of the uss ship that was sunk.I will look it up and read about it . I remember it as a terrible upset in my family. On the west coast I believe we woried more about the Pacific confrontation. Mary, Not everybody agreed that adversity and underprivilage builds character. In fact I totally disagree that that is the under pinning of "character" A background of health and being well fed probably will always build better minds and bodies. leaving persons free to concentrate on character building. No one should feel guilty. As lacking in cash as some people (mine for instance were) yet still had privllages that some did not No call for guilt there. It is a matter of degree . You must have felt groovy to see them load gold at Fort Knox. Post again. Anna B this is the place to tell stories. We need more humor and light hearted memories. Tell us about Gable. He was a favorite. Faith

Hello to all: I'm not a member of the "greatest generation" being born in 1936 but I am old enough to remember being scared at the ound of the news on the radio that we had in the living room. Somehow those broadcasts made me aware that my world was not right. I now know why. Having read Brokaw's book, the greatest generation, and saying good bye to an uncle and three brothers over the WW 2 and Viet Nam I'm blessed just to be living in this great land. Its not perfect, but we're getting ther e. May God bless all the veterans who fought for us.

He was quite a lot older than me, yet not old enough to go to war. Our uncles and cousins went, and came back. They told no stories to us younger ones. That was the era when the young were told to go outside while the grown-ups talked. It was glorified to the point we were all sorry we didn't get in on it. Much, much, later, after I had my children and envisioned THEM going off to war, did I realize the horror. As far as deprivation being a catalyst for character building, no, I believe that's when we each learn if we actually have character. Pain doesn't build, but it strips away the gloss and shows us what we really are deep inside. I believe most people would be surprised at the strength they really have. They just haven't been tested hard enough to have to use it all. We never see ourselves as we really are. By writing this book, Tom has done a fine job showing us to ourselves, and from this book I judge him highly.

WELCOME TO ALL YOU MEN AS YOU JOIN US IN THE FORUM!! We are looking forward to your regular partcipation.

Harry: You are indeed fortunate having never been hungry during the Great Depression or wounded during the war.

BobC: Thank you so much for sharing those horrible memories. We need to be reminded of those times.

LOSALBERN: You just escaped having had to land on the beach in Japan. What a miracle.

Blue Knight 1: Very interesting that you guided young Brokaw in an assignment. Will you share some more about that?

WillieHickory: Welcome. You have pointed out that only when one, as a parent, sees the possibility of a child going to war is the horror of it understood.

COME BACK, EVERYONE. There's lots for us to share with each other!!!

Robby

I grew up in Chicago. Wasn't born until 1940, but I remember the war because the Sun Times had a picture section. Most of the photos, most of the time, were of soldiers. And there were maps with arrows showing troop movements. I remember the end of the war. We had a lot of parades in Chicago.

I also remember prejudice from the time I became conscious of myself as a self. My mother and I used to ride the streetcar, and in the late afternoon black women were on board, returning to their homes from the homes they had cleaned. Sometimes people moved when one of these women sat near them. And there were mean looks on many faces. I was about five when I first felt guilty---and that is the right word---for being white. I didn't understand why these women had to work until they were exhausted.

When my mother and I took the train downtown, there were always veterans from the war, begging outside the station near Marshal Fields. I remember one man especially because he had lost one arm and part of a leg. He played the harmonica and people threw coins in a box in front of him.

And there were many men who came to the back door to ask for something to eat. My mother always made them something, and I used to take the plate out. She always put a cookie or a piece of cake on the plate too. These early sights made a deep impression on me.

Maryal

Growing up in Seattle and attending highschool in the early 40,s I had the opportunity of experiencing the dissappearace of Japanese friends and classmates as they had to leave for the evacuation camps. It was disturbing and unreal that this could happen in our country. My classmates and I did not think that race, color, religion, or other differences affected our friendships. We were simply friends or at least classmates. The war became real and nothing was ever quite the same. Perkln

My husband was in the pacific (Okinawa) after over two years in the European campaigns. After the atom bomb was dropped on Hiroshima, his battalion was ordered back to the states. They stopped practicing beach landings and saved many American lives thereby. He also enjoed both Tom Brokaws books and is interested in the comments made here. He has Parkinson"s disease and cannot write but is an avid reader. He was a walking library for his whole outfit. He lugged two duffle bags filled with books, in Europe and the Pacific. His buddies thought he was nuts but they borrowed the books. Partyday-Judy

Yes I remember it all very well as "I was born in l9l9 which makes me a pretty old lady,but I don`t feel that old. My boy friend and I were driving around in his father`s car that Sunday afternoon and when we heard on the car radio about the attack on Pearl Harbor, I said to Bill "Where is Pearl Harbor, I`ve never heard of it" Well,he hadnt either. But from that day on ou`r lives changed drastically. I have so many stories about those times that I don`t know where to start. I `did`t marry Bill but he came back safely from the Navy and married a girl from San Diego. I also married a Navy man who was stationed on the USSGear, a rescue and repair ship in the Pacific.

Born Dec 1920 - grew up in East Boston, Mass. - which has an ethnic history. East Boston was actually an island (Noddle Island) famed for the Clipper Shipyards -and the resident of ethnicity. Originally the locale for the wealthy wasp families of the ship building and sea commerce of Massachusetts, Eastie inherited the workers and foreign immigrants. First, the Irish who eventually decided politics was the way out of poverty and took over with the influx of Catholics from abroad. Then the Jewish immigrants from Europe and Russia building some of the first synagogues - of which I have great memories. As the Jews became more affluent, they moved to another area making room for the next group, the Italians - my own ethnic group. Father an immigrant, mother an american born of immigrant parents, I grew up with a neighborhood of all three ethnic groups, attending school, playing sports and enjoying a wonderful youth with no idea of any racial problems. It may have been there but East Boston had all cultures and were not like other parts of Boston which had ghetto areas for the Negro(Dorchester), the Italian (North End) and Jewish (Mattapan). When people are working hard for a living, be they merchants with long hours or laborers with low wages, they all come together in their poverty as a community. My father, with the help of the Jewish merchants, became a successful watchmaker so we were never part of the really poor and managed to live through the depression without suffering too much. I never heard words against the Jews until Fr Coughlin and his diatribe from Chicago on the radio in my early teens. I grew up reading books and magazines with the arch enemy being the Japanese and Germans. War was present all around us in the 30's and the military was the way for adventure and excitement. I found much more of both than I had ever imagined when they became a reality in '43 and '44. But that's another theme. Suntaug

Suntaug:

Thanks for making the 1920s and 1930s live for us. I know I lived through that but it seems so long ago.

Robby

I clearly remember the announcement of the Japanese attacking Pearl Harbor. I lived in Fresno, CA at that time and had a little Japanese friend that I played with...then suddenly she was gone.

Little did I know that she had been sent to a relocation camp and that my dad was helping to build those facilities. He helped build Sugerpine Camp, above Friant Dam near Fresno and when that was completed he was drafted even tho' he had been determined as "essential."

My dad entered the Army as an army engineer, was sent to the Phillipines eventually and was captured there and was a prisioner for several years. Upon release, he was immediately sent into Japan to help build the first micro-relay stations and to help rebuild Japan.

My dad served as an army sgt. for 12 years, then got out of the service and entered Civil Service where he eventually became a WB15 and was in charge of all Post Engineers at Camp Zama, Japan. He lived in Japan for 27 years, married (my brother and sister were born there)and remained until he retired and returned to the USA.

My husband was drafted for WW II as soon as he turned 18 in 1944 and served at FT Riley, Ks in the old horse calavry. Luckily he did not see combat.

My husband remained in the army and made it a career and we had the opportunity to live in Japan for three years. My husband was assigned to United Nations (rear)at Camp Zama. It was a wonderful experience and we saw firsthand the damage done to human beings by the atom bomb, visited Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Also visited much of Japan with my dad who was able to take us to see the real Japan.

We had many Japanese friends and always considered ourselves lucky for to meet with them.

Midschsec678:

You have brought another dimension to our discussion. Please share more with us about your experiences in Japan.

If you husband was born in 1926, he also is one of those to be listed in our own GG list above.

Robby

Will be 82 in June. Was an Army Air Force pilot, entered Dec 28,'41 and separated March '46. Have read both books - no, I devoured them. I relived those years that were horendous when we lived thru them but as I relived and recalled them from his books - I felt a real glow of pride that "WE" of that generation really were something special. Not individually but collectively. Like Tom says, we didn't think we were doing anything special, we were just doing what our Country expected from us. The Vietnam mess showed what "too many" thought of responding to their country's call. There were many who responded as their fathers had but the conditions were just totally different and the results were a disaster. I feel fortunate to have been a member of "That" generation and very fortunate to survive the dangers. Thankful to get to experience the post WWII wonders of the current world. A man on the moon ! WOW Computers - amazing. I have truly been blesed

My goodness. I think someone called up the National Guard.

Our list of "the greatest" is growing exponentially!- Keep an eye on the link in the heading ^, the very last line before the posts begin...partyday, Midschsec, we'd love to add your husbands' names to the list. (I have to smile at the idea of a duffle packed with books for combat - the pen is mightier than the sword? I'd have done the same think, I think!)

You are all so welcome! I'm sure Tom Brokaw will be trolling your posts for his next book!

Harry Nadim, bobc, Minnie! Pull up some chairs! We need to hear more from you! Minnie, we will be opening separate discussions within this folder; perhaps "the Books of World War II" would be of interest? We've heard of quite a few veterans of WWII who have written of their experiences recently - during our discussion of The"Good" War. Faith, you might be interested in another discussion analyzing women's views -which you mentioned yesterday - "Greatest Women of our Generation"?

Sallie, Sissie, Anne B, Midschsec678(may we call you, Middy?) Welcome! We look forward to hearing from you often!

"Lucky" Losalbern, Perkln, Willie Hickory, Welcome! "Deprivation is when we learn we actually have character." Do you think, Willie, that many of the "greatest" learned they had character coming through the Depression before the war ever started? So many of you young fellas were so eager to get into the war after Pearl Harbor without the fear one would expect...or was there a lot of fear we don't read about?

Blue Knight, I'm sure young Tom Brokaw will remember his first field assignment in the San Fernando Valley...You sound like so many of our posters - poor but didn't know it! How many of today's poor can say the same, do you think?

Intrepid, EarlPearl we know you have some stories to tell...WELCOME!

Suntaug, welcome back, good friend from The "Good" War discussion. Fahter Coughlin of Chicago certainly made a name for himself - he's reverberating today all the way back to the discussion of the medieval Canterbury Tales...

The basic premise of Tom Brokaw's books is the importance of YOUR common experience - for future generations. So, speak up, we are ALL EARS! Again, welcome from all of us.

When was the draft first initiated? By 1940 did you realize there was going to be a war and that your life would be directly affected?

Some of you have mentioned Pearl Harbor? What do you remember the news of Pearl Harbor? How did you hear about it? How did your life change? (This question is for you too, Gladys - and anyone else abroad at the time?

My memory may not be accurate here but, as I recall it, the drawing of the first number was done by President Roosevelt over the radio. The first number he drew was 158 and as he did it, one could hear a cry from a woman in the group present. Her son's number was 158.

Robby

Good morning, Robby! When was that, do you remember? Do you remember when you had to register for the draft?

I didn't bother reporting to the draft board. I enlisted in the Army on June 10, 1942. I do remember sitting in a foxhole in Germany on Thanksgiving Day in 1944. I also remember receiving a considerable amount of mail that day -- we had not received mail for some time. In came a letter from my draft board notifying me that if I didn't report right away they would create a real problem for me. They did not realize that I was at that moment overseas protecting their right to arrest me. If it had been possible, I would have gladly reported to them that day.

Robby

World War II was a man's war and a man's world. Though Tom Brokaw mentions women in uniform in The Greatest Generation, how much room will be left in this discussion for the ordinary woman who held the fort alone at home?

Mal

Mal, the thing about this war is that it was fought by the entire generation. This one of the reasons Tom Brokaw has called this the greatest generation...not because of a few great men, but because of the collective accomplishment of everyone on the front lines and the home front alike ~ most of them ordinary people who do not consider themselves "great" individuals. There will be plenty of room for the entire story here...don't worry. There are plenty of stories from women in the two books, there will be plenty of memories from the women right here...we have heard some this past week; yesterday there were many new women of this generation who stopped in. And we expect many more to come! We want to hear more from everyone! It is amazing how the details bring back the memories! I'm still smelling Vicks since a post of yours...

What are your memories of Pearl Harbor and the days that followed?

Thank you, Robby, for saying so clearly "There's something important happening here." A safety level that permits that kind of openness is pretty rare. I'm not surprised, though, that some people were uncomfortable, bored maybe and that several wanted to hurry up and get back to the real discussion. So that safety level dried up in a flash. Is it any wonder that those stories are kept silent?

I'm really angry about this. A first for me on SeniorNet. Oh, I always have strong opinions but rarely feel angry. I suspect some voices will be missing from this discussion, which will remove a richness and depth---as lost voices usually do. Maybe a watered down dialogue is easier, though.

Betty:

Let's not be angry. As a cross section of the population plus being from an older group that has formed its opinions over the years, we naturally find outselves disagreeing at times. But here in Senior Net we have found it productive to at times disagree but not in a disagreeable way. Folks in various Discussion Groups across the SN have gotten used to hearing me say: "Issues, not personalities."

Brokaw's book has much to address but in a friendly constructive way.

Robby

I don't mean for this to start a new wrangle. I'm happily off to read other books.

I mentioned the other day that I received "The Greatest Generation Speaks". The next day I found another copy in the mail box. Shall I send it back to Seniornet or to the publisher? Joan ..you asked for my husband's name, Herbert M. Anderson. He was Jr. at that time as he and his father enlisted on the same day, the Chicago paper showed his Dad serving him chow at Great Lakes Naval station. Lois

Hi Joan, My husband is 77 and I am 74. We met after the war ended, although we wrote letters to each other for almost three years. A close friend asked me to write to her husband's buddy who she thought had been recently wounded. After much procrastination, I finally sent him a letter. As fate would have it, he tucked my letter into his pocket to read later--family and friends' letters came first. As things turned out, he got wounded that night and to his surprise, in the hospital, the only letter he had with him was mine and I was asking him about his wounds. And so began a three year correspondence. We got married in 1946. He was a depression child and had a tough childhood. We have had a very good marriage and we often reminisce about the depression and the war years. Partyday(Judy)

My father, Warren H. Kennet, was the first war correspondent to go in on D-Day. He received the French Legion of Honor. He worked for the Newark Evening News in New Jersey. He went back to France for the dedication of the D-Day Memorial 25 years later. My 13th birthday was the day before the invasion. My father wrote me a birthday V-mail and said something big was about to happen and I would know about it soon. Remember those letters were censored so he couldn't say what was about to happen. He died in 1981. I have sent this info to Tom Brokaw, not necessarily for publication but just for his information.

Lois:

Thanks for that "human interest" story of your father-in-law and husband enlisting on the same day. Either your husband was very young to enlist or your father-in-law was older than the usual GIs.

Judy:

There is no nicer time for a soldier to read a letter from a GIRL(!) than when is in the hospital. Beats medication and surgery every time!

Nancy:

Please tell us why your father received the French Legion of Honor. How did that come about?

Robby

I remember the attack on Pearl Harbor being announced. My parents and I were reading the Sunday paper on the porch of our home in Miami. I don't remember what was said however. I do remember FDR's famous speech about "a day in infamy". I have plenty of memories of WW2. We sometimes went to Miami Beach where the Coast Guard patrolled the beaches on horses to guard against Nazi spies coming ashore from submarines. At night fires from sinking ships could sometimes be seen. All kinds of flotsam washed ashore, from machine-gunned life boats to hatches and items from the cargoes of the ships. Sometimes bodies which the Coast Guard handled. For some reason I remember a load of hams that washed ashore - hundreds of them. People would go hunting for those hatches to make tables out of them.

Someone mentioned women in WW2---I had a friend who was a pilot and joined WASP (Women's Army Service Pilots) , and she ferried bombers around the country and also to England. But this was a very small group and I doubt many have even heard about them. They went in harm's way to deliver those planes. And never got much recognition for what they did.

AnneB:

Your comment about seeing fires of sinking ships and flotsam washing ashore calls vividly to our attention how close the war came to the United States. It was not always thousands of miles away.

Robby

Even though there were some pretty bad times in the ‘30s and 40’s, all was not gloom and doom. There were some light-hearted moments, too. And these came to us in the way of radio programs and movies.

Some of the more light-hearted radio programs I can thing of were (and rather than make a long list I’ll just type them as I go along): “Fiber McGee and Molly” that gave me a lot of laughs, especially there full cupboards, or was that from another show. “The Goldbergs,” George Burns and Gracie Allen, Jack Benny and Mary Livingston, Ed Wynn. Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy.

There were some drama type programs, also. Cecil B De Mills’ “Lux Presents Hollywood.” --great, huh. “Little Theater Off Times Square” with Don Amechee (good evening Mr. and Mrs. First-Niter, smoking in the outer lobby only please). Kate Smith. We all waited for her closing song “God Bless America, Land that I love....” There was a commercial at the time, I don’t know what radio show had it : Johnny the page boy would call out “Call for Philip Morris.” “Gangbusters” and “Sing, Sing” with Warden E. Laws.

Some of the light hearted movies: Ginger Rogers and Fred Astair. The plots were corny, but the dancing was excellent. The Bob Hope, Bing Crosby and Dorothy Lamour’s “Road To...” movies. Let us not forget how Hope would entertain the troops.

The comic short subject movies of the time: The Three Stooges, The Bumpsteads (Blonde and Dagwood). And, of course, Laurel and Hardy. I saw a documentary in the mid 50s that told of Stan Laurel being a Master Comedian and comedians from all over the world would seek his advice on how to improve their act or show. I’m sure a lot of you can think of a lot more of these old time radio shows and movies.

also have memories of the war years. One of which is when my father was called to duty in the service of his country. Having been in the navy reserves for 16 years it wasn't long before he was called for active duty on the U.S.S.Quincy and heading off to Savo Island. His ship was torpedoed and he was declared "missing in action". I can remember when my mother received the telegram and just sitting down on the couch crying. I can remember the story being in the newspaper and the photographer coming to take our picture. My mother was left to raise 7 of us, me being the eldest at 11 and my baby brother being 18 months old. Needless to say it was no picnic for her as there was no money coming in and she didn't know were to turn for help. Lucky for us we had a neighbor lady who just took over and went in search of different agencies to see what could be done for us. I can remember coming home from school for lunch in grammer school and helping my mother with laundry by hanging out the clothes on the line before going back to school for the afternoon. My husband was also in the Air Force after the war was over so saw no action. He was in comunication.

Robby: I have been hospitalized for two weeks and am now trying to catch up in this discussion.I just received Tom Brokaw's book. This letter speaks for itself. I, for one, greatly appreciate the sacrifices made by the generation referred to in this letter....Pat B. ---------------------------------------------- Our beloved President shares our pain . . I was embarrassed to read that President Clinton and his advisors have said, "The older generation must learn to sacrifice as other generations have done." That's my generation. I knew eventually someone would ferret out the dirty secret: we've lived the "lifestyle of the rich and famous" all our lives. Now, I know I must bare the truth about my generation and let the country condemn us for our selfishness. During the Depression we had an hilarious time dancing to the tune of "Brother Can You Spare A Dime?" We could choose to dine at any of the country's fabulous soup kitchens, often joined by our parents and siblings...those were the heady days of carefree self-indulgence. Then, with World War II, the cup filled to overflowing. We had the chance to bask on the exotic beaches of Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima and Okinawa; see the capitols of Europe and travel to such scenic spots as Bastogne, Malmedy and Monte Cassino. Of course, one of the most exhilarating adventures was the stroll from Bataan to the local Japanese hotels, laughingly known as death camps. But the good times really rolled for those lucky enough to be on the beaches of Normandy for the swimming and boating that pleasant June day in '44. Unforgettable. Even luckier were those that drew the prized holiday tickets for cruises on sleek, gray ships to fun filled spots like Midway, The Solomons and Murmansk. Instead of asking, "what can we do for our country, "an indulgent government let us fritter away our youth wandering idly through the lush and lovely jungles of Burma and New Guinea. Yes, it's all true: we were pampered, we were spoiled rotten, we never did realize what sacrifice meant. We envy you, Mr. Clinton, the harsh lessons you learned in London, Moscow and Little Rock. My generation is old, Mr. President...and guilty; but we are repentant. Punish us for our failings, sir, that we may learn the true meaning of Duty, Honor, and Country. Robert J. Grady, Lt. Col., USAF (Ret), Colorado Springs

BETTY G your first post made me smile then your second post made me tear up. Well dont get mad just remember there have always been girls who were the CHEER LEADERS and their job is to keep the male ego pumped up and ready to win the game or the war and to want to take care of the female. So sue me I didnt make it up.

.JOAN I well remember when I first knew we Americans would go to war. I was 5years old in 1932 and I went to the park with my grandpa and heard the men on soap boxes. I went to a friends house and his big brothers were going back to Italy to serve in Mussolinis army draft where he called up the sons of immigrants as they had two citizenships. I knew war was coming every minute from the time I was conscious of words. No of course I did not know the meaning of it but I did have a beloved uncle who was gassed in WW1 so I heard all the talk about his illness and his March for a Bonus on Washington. That broke my grandfather and he cried and cried.

I remember when Roosvelt was elected and I remember Pearl Harbor Sunday. . I remembe the women who had to say how they missed their husbands when in secret they were jubiliant that they were able to have the freedom to choose their own lives with the men gone. . And be glorified for doing it for once. The war was good to women in many ways.

Just as it was the first square meals on a daily basis the a million men had ever had in their lives. The war feed, fixed teeth, made healthy for the first time in their lives all these young men from different walks of life. Then they were educated too. The so called prosperity before the crash was nothing like the prosperity of this era.

On Pearl Harbor day my husband shouted"Great now we have to go to war." Thank the good lord for little favors. We were expecting our first child and he would not be drafted. He joined up as soon as they would take married men.

The Italian boy came home in 1939 and he joined up. His parents were later intered in a concentration camp along with millions of Italian, German, and Japenese . I had friends that I went to highschool with, Japenese who went to the recruiting place and were turned away, then interred then they were eventually allowed to volunteer.

I am sure no one will forget where they were when Pearl Harbor was bombed. I was fiive months pregnant and we were listening to the radio after coming home from Sunday walk. And we were about 10 people in the house and everyone crying and talking all at once. And arguing too. My older brother and my husband were near same age . My grandad of course in his seventies. For him it was despair, He was born during Civil War, had seen relatives die in Teddy Roosvelts Spanish American War and had a brother who was a broken man from WW One \

No I dont like all these memories very much nor the feeling that have been called up in me in the last week. as I am having some pain and some anger. I am too, Malryn, going to find a book about butterflies or something.Maybe a fairy tale is in order. Faith

Bill H:<:

You bring back so many memories. The family often gathered around the radio in the 30s and 40s, didn't it?

Shorty70:

Seven children raised by one woman who suddenly found herself a "war widow." Heroics comes in many forms.

Robby

What sacrifice did Clinton do? When it was time to serve his country he "backed out". What fine example for a President!

Sallie: Some presidents are greater than others. Most of us in the 1930s and 1940s remember F.D.R. as a great president. I remember standing in the snow in Germany in 1945 and watching hardened GIs cry (as did I) when we learned of his death.

Robby

AnneB, I too met a woman who had been a WASP. She lived in Leesburg, Virginia and remained close to the group and lobbied Congress on their behalf. I had a fascinating conversation with her about this. As I recall, they were "in combat" in the sense that they could get shot at (with no means of shooting back), but were not legally even in service, though in uniform! And when one of them (as several were) was killed, the group had to put together the funds to have their bodies brought back to this country for burial! At least this is my memory of what she said. I may not be entirely correct. I do remember vividly that the group felt very aggrieved.

Nancy! Welcome! My dad worked in Newark, often doing advertising for the Newark Evening News at that time- before the war. Maybe their paths crossed. Your father went early...do you remember the bombing of Pearl Harbor? Was that what activated him?

Patrick, welcome back from the hospital. We were hoping for your return. I think we need to know the source of that letter and the context before reacting to that preposterous statement allegedly made by Clinton. It sounds to me as if he had to have said the exact opposite! You have a vivid memory - what do you remember of Pearl Harbor Sunday? Were you drafted or did you sign up right away? I'm still laughing at the image of Robby getting his draft notice delivered to his foxhole!

partyday, may we add your husband's name to our list? Will everyone else check that list in the heading, (SN's Greatest) for accuracy? Do you see anything you'd like added or changed?

Lois would you mind sending the book back to SeniorNet in CA? Thanks so much!

Bill! What fun! Takes you right back there...can still hear "call for Phillip Morreeeece"- Fanny Byce "cigars, cigarettes, Daaadddy", Amos 'n Andy, and then the Andrews "Boogie Woogie Bugel Boy" - (Patti still lives in CA.)

Faith, you do have a vivid memory of Pearl Harbor. And you were pregnant! No wonder these are not pleasant memories for you. You know, I have been noticing how quickly and eagerly the young men signed up at the news of Pearl Harbor...but never before heard about women rejoicing that they were going? Is that how it happened, or do you mean to say women learned to enjoy their more productive, independent lives during the war?

Shorty, didn't the government help the widows and children at all or was it too little to make a difference?

Anne, Mary Page, that is so awful learning of the WASPS! I'm going to do a quick Internet search right now to see what I can find! Will you both share your memories of Pearl Harbor day? How did your lives change after that?

There's lots on the Web about WASPS...here's one of the sites (you were right, they weren't considered part of the Military until 1977!) ~ WASPS

While searching for WASPS, I came across this site...when a kid, I read every single Cherry Ames book...must have read this one too...look at the list, ladies - it might take you back:

<Cherry Ames, War Nurse

Joan Both. For Sure. Also I like it when people accept that I mean what I am saying not just that I think I mean what I am saying.BUT don't get me wrong about loving husband and wives being seperated not being a terrible burden I know it was. I also know about following a husband all over the USA and leaving a baby home with a gramma. I and an older sis did it, and I met many young women on the bases I worked at that were doing just that. We understood only to well what the girls we worked with whose husbands were already overseas were going through. Gosh I could tell you their stories but I will reserve it for another place since this is obviously a forum for men and wha t men think about the Greatest Generation and what the woman who are mens Cheer Leaders think . So good night sweet princes. See you at the movies; Faith

Joan Yes the government did help after a time but it took many weeks before any money started coming in. I also remember my mother doing some sewing at home. She was doing some mending and repair work for a dry cleaners company. Someone would bring the work to her with notes on the items as to what needed to be done and then after a couple of days would pick them up with some other work for her. She did this for quite awhile. So she was very busy and needless to say we all had to pitch in with the housework and stuff. We all had our chores too, boys and girls

The book came! The book came! Today the book came! Thank you SeniorNet. Thank you Random House. And for the pen too. I love fountain pens.

NOW, all I need is time to read. Soon the papers will be done and the final exam written. Soon soon. Soon.

Gladys---Did YOUR book come?

Maryal

Mabe I will never get a book. Oh well Daltons here I come. Faith

I already had TGG, but I ordered TGGS from SeniorNet and it came yesterday. Thanks!

I had already been shipped off to live with my step grandmother when Pearl Harbor Day came. Now the fact is, I do not remember what I was wearing and not much of what I was doing yesterday, and certainly not last week. But I remember that day as vividly as though it were a few hours ago. I suppose because I retold it so often at first, and then through the years. We all did. That probably fixes it in our memory banks.

I had been to Sunday School and church. Had had Sunday dinner. Was off rolling skating with my chums on McCloud's Hill. That is a fairly steep hill leading south out of Stephens City, Virginia on down the Valley. Route 11, which was the main highway at that time. So few cars in those days we dared do this! Today, even though Route 81 is the principal highway through the Valley of Virginia, you could not Dream of roller skating down McCloud's Hill!

I had on a bright blue wool skirt, plain. A bright cherry red wool cable knit cardigan my great grandmother had knitted me. It was quite heavy and had a zipper down the front instead of buttons. I had light brown pigtails. My skates were the awe of all and my one great pride: they were red. RED METAL! My Uncle Buster, who signed up with the Army Air Corps the very next day, had bought them for me. I was 12 years old and in the 7th grade.

I had gotten tired and went home, took my skates off, and trudged up the steps, across the porch, and left my skates by the front door. Went very quietly into the house, because I was sure my grandmother was taking a nap in her special corner lookout post in the living room. Tiptoed down the long hall and to the basement door by the kitchen and went down to the root cellar. Grandma bought a peck of apples for herself and one for me from the fall crop: mine were Golden Delicious, my favorite at that time. I grabbed an apple and went quietly back up and down the hall. My grandmother's voice called to me from the living room. I went to the door and found her sitting there in tears. I could hear John Daly talking on the radio next to her. I heard the word Pearl. Then grandma told me what had happened and she said: "All of my children could be killed in this terrible war!" Well, none were, though every single one went in. Uncle Buster's ship was sunk under him, and he lost everything including my camera, which Grandma and I had packed in a large coffee can and sent to him. The ship was a troop ship, he was not Navy. He was saved. My Uncle Marshall was in a plane that went down. He fell backwards and a barrel or something rolled into him and his back still bothers him. Grandma had 4 blue stars, but no gold. We count our blessings. I was very excited and couldn't wait to go back out and tell the other kids. The next day they could hardly contain us at school. Around ten or so, I am not certain of the hour, we all filed into the auditorium and listened to President Roosevelt's speech. On the radio over loudspeakers. Then we went home for the rest of the day. Life was not difficult, but it sure did change a lot. Oh, the many many things that "went to war". I vividly remember that the next time I had to be fitted out with new stacks of underwear, all the panties had no elastic and buttoned on the side instead. That and the lack of chocolate were my biggest hardships, I am ashamed to say.

Anne B. and Joan - While on an Elderhostel trip to the Air Force Museum in Dayton, Ohio, we were shown slides by a member of the WASPS in WWII - their training in Texas, their uniforms and she answered many questions. She was just great and she invited all of us to go the Women's Air Force Museum which was close by. One thing she said they all regretted was the fact that they never got to fly a plane overseas; they flew all kinds of airplanes from the factory to the bases everywhere in America and petitioned everyone they knew to fly the planes to England but it was "Hap" Arnold, the big gun in the Army Air Force who refused and they never forgave him.

If you ever get to Dayton you'll love both museums! They were working on restoring FDR's Air Force One plane while we were there - it was built very special to accommodate his wheel chair and other inconveniences he suffered. It was so small compared to the Presidents' planes today!

While at the Women's Museum they were having a reception for General Westmoreland and his entourage, and while we were standing at an exhibit sipping our punch he came over, stuck out his hand to my husband and myself and introduced himself as Dick Westmoreland and we chatted awhile. The only general I've ever met in person! Very personable! But isn't he trying to live down his actions in Vietnam, or am I mistaking him for someone else, which could very easily be done by me.

I'm like someone else here - when we heard the news of Pearl Harbor I kept asking where is that? Where is that? Is that America? It didn't take long to learn the consequences of that day! And I remember listening to the radio and hearing FDR's speech and all the adults were either very quiet or crying quietly.

Perhaps I'm wrong about General Westmoreland? I don't want to give false impressions about honorable people so I went searching and found this:

General Westmoreland

Who knows more about him? He fought in WWII.

HI MARYPAGE! We are posting at about the same time and it's late here in mid-America - I'm off to bed! What are you doing up at midnight? I couldn't get on earlier - the Internet was so bussssssy!

On Dec.7th I was working as an usherette in the Poli Theater in Bridgeport, Conn. Suddenly the movie stopped, the lights came up and the manager came on the stage and announced the Pearl Harbor Attack--adding that all military men were to return to their bases IMMEDIATELY.Never before, or since, have I had so many kisses and so many hugs in such a short time as the men poured out of the theater--many asking to pray for them. I turned 18 on 12/23. I too, wanted to be in the service but had to wait until I turned 20 . The week before my birthday I endlisted in the WAVES and in the navy 3 weeks later. Churchill summed everything up when he said "it was the worst of times and the best of times." I was discharged 11/21/45--almost 22 years old and SO MUCH had happened.

My quote was from Tale of Two Cities--no matter who said it it is SO TRUE. One the chief asked for some volunteers to work in the warehouse one night. For some reason I was the only volunteer--I hadn't learned yet that you NEVER VOLUNTEER IN THE SERVICE. Anyway at the time I was stationed at NSD in Clearfield, Utah on the prelude to computers--IBM monsters. There were many American Indians on the base--after all we were in the west. I found myself in a big cold warehouse that night. The Indians though it was big fun to scare a scrawny little navy gal by whooping and hollering in their native languages. When I got back to the barracks it was about 2am and my commanding officer chewed me out for coming in so late. But as I got to my desk at 8am the chief laid a newspaper on my desk--D-Day--the Invasion has started. He told me that I had been in charge of the loading of medical supplies for this auspicious day. The pride I felt in taking part made me over look Captain Zimmermans reprimand. Wonder if she is still around today????

I have read Tom Brokaw's book and watched his documantory on TV. I enjoyed both very much, in fact I have send the book to my sister who lives in France. She was a very active member of the underground FFI. She also felt that the book was very well written and truthfull. We were in France living in occupied France and we appreciated very much what these brave soldiers did to set us free. Thank you very much. Marguerite

Thanks to Seniornet for my book ,,it is the Greatest Generation...I have been peeking in here but not commenting until the book arrived. I have given a lot of thought to this since my older brothers (3) served in WWII ..the two oldest ones waited to be drafted and the youngest who my parents had to sign for ( I am not sure of the ages) I was seven years younger than the youngest of the three older brothers ( I have two younger brothers) Emmett enlisted in the Coast Guard along with a young black neighbor and friend...they were so disappointed to be separated. He was in Destroyer Escort Duty all during the war. My oldest brother left from Patrick Henry Staging area about 4 miles from where I live now ...and was sent to India. The second brother was in the Army anti aircraft unit and was caught behind the enemy lines in The Battle of the Bulge ..he and a buddy were saved from capture by a Belguim family that hid them in the root cellar beneath the kitchen. It was a wonderful thing to do as all would have been killed if they had been found. When the war was over he stayed three months in a rehabiliation camp in France ..until he was able to come home. Mother always said he ruined her overstuffed chairs in the living room since he sat in them like he was in a foxhole...she never complained though ..just had them reupholstered after he married and left home.

I have thought many times about Pearl Harbor since I never knew about it until I went to school on Monday and found some of my classmates in tears as they had brothers in service. We did listen to President Roosevelts speech and I can still hear his words about "A day that will live in infamy" I was scared as I had no idea what it meant but I think I feared that we were in danger of being invaded ..since I lived near St Louis that doesnt seem likely but it was a very frightening thought.

With this discussion I have given much thought to the men and women..and families that lived through this war. It was a terrible time as fathers, sons and brothers disappeared from the neighborhood headed for service. The war lasted long enough for some of my classmates to enter into service..some lying about thier ages to do so., and I recall the newspapers with postage sized pictures of those that first left and then for those that had been killed. There were so many and I found it so sad I wept to see them all. My brothers wrote regularly although I cant say how often the mail arrived. There were V-Mail and censored mail and when my brother Milton was in the Battle of the Bulge there was a long time between letters and my parents were so upset which made me upset as well.

I have enjoyed reading others memories and thank you all for sharing your thoughts. Read the beginning this evening so will be back...

anna in Virginia

WELCOME MARGUERITE & YANKEE75!!! Your voices add such dimension - a WAVE and a Frenchwoman! I asked my favorite checker in the local market - I've known her for over 10 years, and knew she was in France during the war - I asked her what she remembered about D-Day. At first she answered factually - she was a 12 year-old-school girl at the time; the children had been brought to a seaside town in France...But when I asked about a specific memory of D-Day itself, her face clouded, she remembered bombs everywhere...and then she became upset at me, a little angry and told me not to talk to her of such things on Good Friday. Some memories are very painful to bring back, aren't they?

Mary Page, I feel I am with you tiptoe-ing past Grandma's lookout post and can feel her pain as she tells you about Pearl Harbor. Those "feelings" are what make this discussion come alive... So many stories of so many in the same family on the front! As a mother, my heart goes out to the mothers - who"packed" them off...BUT THEY DID IT!

Ella- such on-the spot information on the WASPS! I'm beginning to understand that these brave women were not officially sanctioned by the War Dept. and so that when it came time for the Veterans' benefits after the war, the GI Bill, etc, they still weren't officially recognized. Still - not bringing their bodies home...

The same Gen. Westmoreland! I know we're going to hear more from our WWII Vets on the Vietnam War as we get into the discussion...

Annafair, I'm glad you finally received your book!We have been discussing the introductiory pages in both books for the last two weeks...- There are more discussion questions for your consideration over these pages up in the heading behind the

Your memories are making this period live and hopefully are bringing back more of them from others!

Your comments are stimulating further thinking as indicated by Joan's posting above.

MaryPage: Isn't memory amazing that you can pull out of your mind such minute details of what you wore almost 60 years ago?

Ella: Regarding Westmoreland, I met him prior to the Vietnam War when I was a Scout Executive with the B.S.A. and he was a guest speaker. I can always remember his making a comment about intelligence and emotions when he said: "I'd rather be an ill-adjusted egghead than a well-adjusted blockhead." Draw your own conclusions.

Marguerite: Can you tell us more about your sister who was in the French Forces of the Interior (FFI)? They were so much help directly and indirectly to the Allied Forces.

Annafair: How tough that must have been on your parents having three sons in the service. Are you willing to share more about your brother Milton who required rehabilitation?

Yankee: You quote "best of time and worst of times" from Tale of Two Cities (French Revolution) but add that it is also applicable to World War II. Would you expand a bit on to why you also see WWII as the "best of times?"

Robby

Robby I am not sure but I think there were so many to bring home the rehabilitation camps were set up to give them a chance to return to normalcy. He spent three months there and I remember him saying in the beginning if a vehicle would backfire everyone would drop to the ground. One sad story I remember was while in training in the El Paso area an American Indian in the group would pick up rattlesnakes and snap their heads.. (please remember these stories are from many years ago) at the rehabilitation center this man had a complete breakdown and was sent to a mental hospital. There were also counselors who helped them to readjust to life without a daily battle to face. They were not allowed to bring back loot and were checked for those items before being allowed to board the ships. My brother had a Luger and a down comforter I am not sure how he was able to get them on board..he did tell a story about doing so but the details are lost. He carried the comforter while there and slept with it as it was so warm. The rest of his life he slept under that comforter having had it recovered. He opened a dry cleaners after his return and two days after my wedding he was in the shop late in the evening and went to the back to get a glass of water. It was dark and he had the luger in his hand. One of my uncles had visited him earlier and he showed the gun to him...and the safety catch. He forgot to set the catch again and when he put the luger into his back pocket in the dark and let go thinking it was safe the gun fell to the floor and discharged. The bullet entered his leg at an angle just below the knee. The shop was down the street from my parents home and when we saw the ambulance and police cars my husband went down there. He went to the hospital and the doctors could see the entrance wound but no exit wound. An exray revealed the bullet had moved upward and had lodged in the inner part of the thigh near the groin. Since it was a steel jacketed bullet the doctors decided to leave it there. The thinking was to remove it would have left him with a limp and perhaps add other problems. When he died at 75 the bullet was still there. He rather enjoyed telling the story. The ER people and the police asked if he had tried to commit suicide. I understand he snorted and said "Hell No! I am a better shot than that" and would add "Those Germans finally got me!" anna from Virginia

Annafair: Thank you for sharing that very personal story. The emotional toll on soldiers of both World Wars was terrible and to this day the Veterans Hospitals are filled with patients who have been there for the past 60 years.

Robby

Ella, I was up late with you last night because I hosted our local cut-throat, no holds barred (but no money or gambling of any type involved either) card game of HEARTS. Twelve women from in their thirties to in their seventies. We do it approximately every 2 weeks, we all live in this condo, and we really whoop it up! We neither drink nor smoke, and most of us, including myself, are drinking ice water. We do indulge in the veggies & dips, cashews, chocolate chip cookies, Hershey's nuggets, Fritoes, etc. Overindulge. Thus I had just seen them off last night and was relaxing before bed. Oh, by the way, I WON last night. A rare event indeed! Also before turning in this morning I checked and found that the WASP I had the lovely long talk with (we were seatmates on a flight from Dulles to Pittsburgh) was Barbara Ware Lazarsky, and she was from Middleburg, Virginia, not Leesburg. (Middleburg, Leesburg, mumble, mumble ..... over THAT way!) A lovely woman, we had struck up and kept up a conversation from the beginning of the flight because of some comment I made at take off and she turned to me and said "Oh, you're a pilot!" And I replied that I was and she told me who SHE was and I felt like small potatos (is there an e when it is plural? I'm so afraid of doing a Quale) indeed. I learned to fly a Cessna 152 because I wanted to, and then quit because it was too expensive. This lady was A PILOT! Later I read an interview of her in THE WASHINGTON POST, where I learned much more about her. But the Post article did not reflect the deep bitterness I heard from talking to her. Those ladies really did a fabulous job with absolutely no recognition. Bottom line: the rampant male chauvinism of the times. The men just did not want to admit there were women flying AT ALL! Period. Upon reflection I must admit these women were not alone. All of the women of this country did their part, without the glory of parades or even thanks when victory was achieved. My birth mother was a nurse in the Army Air Corps, and those women were bitter as well because they were treated like so many "skirts" and hooted and hollered at by the guys rather than given the respect that was supposed to be given to a commissioned officer in our Armed Services. They could not get through their days without at least a half dozen propositions. My mother died in 1970, still bitter, but she would be proud of the Women's Memorial we have today (her name is there) and of the enormous strides in equality of the sexes. I think the younger generations will never get a feel for or understand how it was back then. There was a general attitude among the men that if you were out there "trying to be a part of them" then you were a loose woman and easy pickings, as all of the "virtuous" women were at home raising babies!

MaryPage:

I haven't played Hearts in years. I was one of those who always tried to get them all.

MaryPage, was I asleep during one of your previous postings? I didn't know you could pilot a plane!! (Someone in our November gathering in Chicago was a pilot. Who was that, Joan?)

The remainder of your posting was devoted to what you called "rampant male chauvinism" of that generation. Others who have posted previously have commented on this. I cannot let this topic go by without commenting on it. I believe I have the standing to do so because 1)I lived in those times and 2) I am a male and cannot be considered partial. Yes, people of the younger generation who are listening to this discussion, it is true, in my opinion, and some of us males (not all) have hopefully evolved and are ashamed of our previous attitudes.

Those events that MaryPage describes brings back memories. It was almost impossible for Red Cross women to bring doughnuts to the troops without the stories immediately starting again that everyone "knew" they were the whores for the officers. It was almost impossible for the WAACS (later WACS) to walk down the street without passing GIs to agree with each other that everyone "knew" they had been brought into the Army to satisfy the soldiers. That generation had a strong male-female divide. The story of Rosie the Riveter was a joke to many but not to many many of the GIs whose wives or girl friends had been working outside the home. A highly significant percentage of the returning veterans DEMANDED that their women "come back home where they belonged." If the wives had been very efficiently budgeting the money and writing the checks properly, now it was time to return the purse to the man.

Please don't tell me that there were exceptions. Of course. There are exceptions to everything. There will be men in this Discussion Group who disagree vehemently to what I have just said and that is their prerogative. But that is how I remember it. As MaryPage's friend said: There was rampant male chauvanism in those times."

I realize that this is not a group discussing primarily male-female relationships but we are talking about my generation, are we not?

Robby

Thank you, Robby, for saying something important that has needed to be said. It is my hope that in the eyes of most of these men women have become more than just chattel to be used.

Yup, it's true. In many ways, our Greatest Generation was not always as great as it might have been.

Mal

Thank you, Robby.

I hereby declare you an official VIRGINIA GENTLEMAN.

p.s. Don't think I've mentioned flying here before, so you did not miss anything.

Marypage I saw and felt a lot of that type of discrimination during WW!! working on the bases where my husband was stationed. There were remarks like"take a bus take a train but leave us just be men again." and worse. And we civilians girls and girls in the service's who were fair game for sexual harrasment. I think the worst thing is whensome indeed a lot of your own sex ,women, won't see the red flag of discrimination in front of their face and so many women said and still say well it wasn't the norm.and often said what did you do to deserve that? Robby thank you for your egliatarian comments. Faith

Robbie: On D-Day, June 6, 1944, My Infantry Division captured Rome, Italy, and so were not as impressed as the rest of the world about the invasion of Europe, as we had already did much fighting in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia, Sicily, Monti-Cassino and Anzio. When American troops first landed in North Africa on November 8,1942, only a few leaders, civil and military, actually knew how many bitter months yet remained before the actual second front was finally to open in Normandy on June 6, 1944. This extra time would allow over 100 American Divisions to train in England. In 1942 we were limited in offensive and tactical weapons. There were no LSTs, LCIs, "ducks" or special amphibious craft and equipment. These were still on the drawing boards or factory production lines. "Higgins Boats" ferried the assault troops to the African shore, and 75mm pack howitzers were broken down and carried on the backs of the doughboys. At that time, little did we know that there yet remained much of our own "blood, sweat, tears, and toil" for our fighting troops serving under General George Patton in the Mediterranean theater and in future battles in France, Germany and Austria. History now reveals the many mistakes our own technicians and the allied army and navy planners made in this, our first amphibious battle action. The naval coxswains steering the Higgins Boats were not experienced and were unfamiliar with the pre-designated landing places, and as a result our landing crafts smashed full speed into corral reefs, causing the waves to wash over our heads, doubling the weight of our 60-pound packs with water and causing many of our soldiers to drown. Many small boats were broached and overturned in the heavy surf, with the result that personnel were battered and bleeding from the cuts they received from the spike sharp coral reef while getting ashore. The beach was covered by enemy searchlights, enemy artillery and machine gun fire, and the assault platoons were forced to move out of the field of fire quickly, and attacked toward Fedala from where the heaviest enemy fire was originating. We were in the target area and immediately shelled by friendly naval fire, and suffered more casualties due to poor ship to shore communications. The final overcoming of all these difficulties by the combat troops, and their ability to attain their final objectives and victory despite the many casualties, some of them caused by our own mistakes, was prophetic of our future in all of our battles in WW2, in Africa, Sicily, Italy, Anzio, France, Alsace. Germany and Austria. The mistakes would be reviewed by army and naval planners in preparations for future landings in Sicily, Italy and France. Earlier, when we left the United States, in an effort to confuse the enemy concerning our final destination, and to minimize the danger from U-boats, our troop transports took 2 weeks to zig-zag across the Atlantic from Norfolk, Virginia, in preparation for the invasion, and our first battle. During the long crossing we had many conversations with the Catholic Chaplain, 1st Lieutenant Clement Falter, who continually encouraged and assured us that we would be victorious in this, our first battle, and said, " Friends are God's way of taking care of us. I'll lean on you and you lean on me and we will all be O.K." Fifty eight years later I remember well Chaplain Falter and all my other buddies in our first battle action.We all took different paths in life, but no matter where we went we took a little of each other everywhere. 1st. Lieutenant Clement Falter died on the beach at Fedala. He was the first chaplain to be killed in WW2.

Patrick reminds us that D-Day on the French coast was not only the key event that took place on June 6, 1944. Rome, one of the major capitals of the world, was liberated!! He also reminds us that the war, in one sense, was just beginning although fighting had been going on since 1938 for the British and since December, 1941, for the Americans. Fighting in North Africa since November, 1942 was a story in itself, as Patrick points out, including Morocco, Algeria, and Tunisia before moving on to Italy.

He also emphasizes another part of the war which was the training. Just think of that!! ONE HUNDRED American divisions training in England!! Despite this training many "mistakes" were being made which was inevitable due to the pressure of time. Think of being killed by "friendly" naval fire!! Think of being drowned. It is probably good that many "Gold Star" parents did not know how their children died. Patrick also reminds us of the critical responsibility of the chaplains and the dangers they were often in.

Thank you, Patrick, for bringing the horrors of war closer to our awareness.

Robby

Oh, Patrick! Such a sad story and those fellows drowning because of mistakes and on and on. But I think we should all remember what your chaplain said, it's such wonderful advice whether in war or peace. Thank you for this -

I repeat: Friends are God's way of taking care of us. I'll lean on you and you lean on me and we will all be O.K."

Where did the courage come from to do the things the soldiers did? All of us that are reading your stories wonder how we would do in similar circumstances!

MARYPAGE I haven't played Hearts in years and years - sounds great fun. We used to play a lot of cards - remember Canasta? When we were first married, my husband had 2 jobs (we were both working and saving our money for our first home) and one of them involved him in working about 4 nights a week. Another couple found a young man for me that was going to college nearby and so we played game after game with my standin-husband.

Incidentally, to spare us all another "Quayle" (BG) I looked it up - potato - plural - an "es." Oh, you're funny!

Robby, it was your friend and mine - Ann Alden that was a pilot! And she was tellling me the other day about the Higgins boats and the company has built a WWII Museum in New Orleans (wasn't it?) to exhibit the part their boats played in the war.

I've read the first chapter in the GG - the soldier who came home blind and eventually founded the Blind Veterans' Association - what a success story! But I'm not sure I can read many of these, as I weep all the way through them. These eager young men for adventure - Oh, there are no words!

Joan- My husband's name is Norman Almas. He would be happy to have his name listed. He just finished "The Greatest Generation Speaks" and loved it. I am finally going to get my hands on it. We have found all the messages very interesting, and we will be looking forward to more.

Ella: Yes, it was Ann! How could I have forgotten. I hope we hear from her further here.

Partyday: I hope your husband Norman gives us some of his reactions to Tom Brokaw's book.

Robby

(I was born in August,1930.) The day of Pearl Harbor I was at home recovering from the Mumps. We lived outside Schenectady, New York along the main Highway going North. It was a chilly, dismal day with thick clouds - unless I was so depressed I thought it was cloudy - but no snow on the ground. All day long many troup transports were traveling both up and down the road. Our lawn was large extending right out to the roads edge. At noon time and several other times during the day the transports would stop, the soldiers getting out to stretch their legs, eat, walk around our yard, and/or just rest in the grass. My father was at home. He visited with these 'boys' while I stayed a safe distance away, listening. They truly were frightened; everyone Daddy talked to. It was the first time in their lives they could not even imagine what the future would hold for them; if there was to be a future for them. It seemed like Dooms Day.

PS, I've had this wonderful book for quite some time. I love it.

Suzanne: An interesting and perhaps significant way of describing D-Day - Dooms Day. But as you say, the "boys" were frightened. Some young fellows were more introspective than others, examining their own lives and wondering, as you said, if there was "any future for them."

Robby

Fair Anna,

You brought back a memory that I had forgotten for so many years. My older brother was a Marine stationed on Samoa during WWII and when he returned at the end of the war we were walking together on the main street of our Kansas hometown when a car backfired near us and his reaction was exactly the same as you described about your brother. His sudden flinching surprised me and then brought home to me some understanding of just what he must have gone through on that South Pacific island. It was a very long time before he became comfortable again with civilian life.

I remember Pearl Harbor day vividly but strangely, I have no memory of D-Day. I wonder if it was because my brothers were Navy and Marines and were more involved with the Japanese than the European areas. I, also, remember the "Day of Infamy" speech by FDR over the radio and I remember the serious expressions on my parent's faces. My father was in the 1st Division under General John Pershing for 5 years in Europe. I realize now that he was far more aware of what terrible times we were in for when we entered WWII.

Phyll

Phyll: My father was also in the First Division under General Pershing in WWI. He was in the Signal Corps.

Regarding reaction after the war to shots or similar noises. (Probably many veterans have memories like this.) I was in Paris in November, 1945. I was walking down a quiet tree-lined street and suddenly a series of shots. Sounded like a machine gun and probably was as many people still possessed guns. In one second I was flat on my stomach. You don't think at those moments. It comes from training and experience. I never did know the source of those shots.

Robby

Joan: There has been so much discussion about how the women felt when the men went away to war, I thought it would be beneficial to add this to the discussion.

When the American troops first landed in Africa in 1942, there were many cultural differences we had to get accustomed to. There were so many different Arabian dialects that the Moroccans, Algerians and Tunisians had difficulties in communications in their own native lanquages among the different tribes in northern Africa, and used French as a second lanquage, as they were all French Colonies. As I was bi-linqual, I got along very well with the Arabs. The thing that surprised me the most was that the strong centuries old patriarchal system was still in existence, in which women were still regarded as chattel, and not as equals to the men-folk. It was no uncommon sight to see a woman and a donkey hitched up together, doing the chores in the hot sun, while the man of the domicle fanned himself, in the shade , under a nearby tree while he supervised the job. In Tunisia, it was customary among the Nomad Bedouins, who were desert dwellers and continually moving, that the man usually travelled 20 paces ahead of his wife, on his donkey, to denote his male authority position. The woman tradionally trudged on foot behind, carrying a large bundle of firewood on her head. Riding the donkey ahead of his wife made it possible for the man to point out sticks of wood that she might not see. She would then pick up the piece, and add it to the bundle already on top of her head. While the Germans were retreating in the desert they planted numerous anti-personne mines to slow the American pursuit. Occasionally a mule would step on a mine, and the man and mule would be blown to Kingdom Come. This changed the whole patriarchal culture among the Bedouins, while we were there to observe it, and made them reconsider the position and status of their wives. After the loss of a few men and mules, the women were given the privileged position of walking 20 paces in front of the mule, but still had to carry the bundle of wood on her head. In giving a talk about this, at a Can-Am Vets dinner, I began my conversation by saying , " You know in North Africa it was no uncommon sight to see a woman and a jack-ass hitched up together." A woman from the Auxilary spoke up and said," That is not so unusual- you should meet my husband!

Hi, Reading all these stories brings back so many memories good and not so good. But it also reminds me that most of us have "been there/done that", where the heck has the time gone? Was a GI for over 3 years in "the big one", no scratches. Still wonder where some of the kids are? Wally

Robby you are indeed a gentleman to admit to your feelings.This was a societial thing and there is plenty of blame to go around. My husbands sister was in the WAVES and all in my family admired all who were willing to do whatever they could for the war effort. There were women then and now who think "certain" women deserve the treatment they recieve.

We had a lovely lady from our church who has since died but who 15 years ago was raped on a sunny Palm Sunday afternoon at the local hospital when she was visiting an ill church member. It was so sad she had to suffer twice...first from the actual crime and second from people from the church who seemed to imply it was her fault. We still have that mentality where the victim is blamed for the crime.Back to the greatest generation.

Nothing can take away what the young men and women of that time were willing to do to save the world and they did it at a tremendous cost. When they returned it was not to the same world. After all they had been through and seen it had to be confusing to them. Women who had married strong men because they believed in their protection (societial ) found they themselves had enormous strength and could no longer take a back seat in a marriage or society.

Women who expected to have a husband and a father to help raise a family were suddenly both to the children and they had to do it alone. Men who had fought and were imprisoned returned home to children who never knew them. For years they had mom to themselves and suddenly their places were usurped by a stange man. Those men survived by thinking life had stood still for everyone as it did for them. How traumatic to find it had moved and left them at least temporarily behind.

I applaud Tom Browkaw's choice of words..they were the greatest. They were prepared to die and did because they believed what they were doing was important and needed. The ones I knew other than my own brothers were changed forever by that war. They did it without expectation of glory or reward. There was no gold to be discovered or land to be won for their use ...they believed in their country and what it stood for and if we had lost that war none of us would be having this open discussion now.

My thoughts just keep flowing and I am looking forward to everyones thoughts as well. THANKS TO ALL OF THOSE MEN AND WOMEN It was hard for everyone for few were untouched by that war. They are all heroes and heroines in my mind...

anna in Virginia

Robby,

What a co-incidence that our fathers were in the same division. My father was infantry through and through---spent a lot of time in the trenches. Was wounded twice and gassed. But to the end of his days Black Jack Pershing was his hero.

Phyll

Annafair: While we have had many wars in this past century, you have pointed out that "few were untouched" by World War II. Younger generations who know all about the Vietnam War, the Persian Gulf War, and the various uprisings around the world which required the presence of our troops have still not had the experience of seeing every single member of the populace, or whatever gender or age, working in some form for the "effort." And if they were not, authorities and neighbors wanted to know why not? It was a terrible event which brought everyone together. Again -- adversity breeding character?

Robby

Good old Schenectady. Back in MY day it was, "the City that Lights and Hauls the World", being the home of General Electric Company and the American Locomotive Company. The following is an event that I vividly recall from the 2nd. WW days - Schenectady was on the Radio, a Special show, probably coming from Proctors (theater) - I'm not certain on that - with an announcer quite a bit like Ralph Edwards, but here again I don't know. Anyway, they developed a great radio show which was called, "The City that Kept a Secret". I went to this if for no other reason than to find out what great secret our whole City had kept. It was the first I and surely most everyone else had any knowledge of this mysterious secret. Everyone knew that the American Locomotive Company was making Tanks. Gracious, there were Tanks everywhere it seemed. They had to drive them out on the City streets from the Plant to get them to the Proving Grouds a few miles down the road. I used to ride with my father as he drove to work, my school and his office were very close together. One morning we almost were killed by one of those tremendous Tanks as it rounded a corner. I never thought of them in any other light than something to be terrified by between their noise and size, shape, and just the look of them. Their name meant nothing to me and probably to no one else either- even my father and he was a newspaper reporter. Well that radio program informed us. These were the M-7 Tanks that won the battles against Romney in Egypt, and we as a City were big news as no one (not even us)realized where they were manufactured. I wonder if anyone in Sr. Net was ever in one of those things??

Suzanne brings up even another aspect of the united war effort by others besides those who were in combat. Does her memory of tanks being built in Schenectady bring anything else to your mind? What about the community in which you lived? Tanks, jeeps, planes, trucks, ships, guns of various types, ammunition, radar equipment, bomb sights, navigation equipment, locomotives and cars that fit European rails, communication gear, combat meals, medical supplies?

What about even small items? Out on Long Island was a small company which made Zsus Fasteners. Sounds innocuous, doesn't it. These fasteners were attached to propellers. What was made in or near your community?

Robby

Shoes. My hometown in Northern Massachusetts was full of shoe shops (factories) that made shoes for the military during WWII.

Western Electric started a small facility in my hometown, and what they made there I'll never know. Whatever it was, it was called a "secret operation".

In Lawrence and Lowell, not very far west of my hometown, there were fabric mills that made the cloth for uniforms worn by the military. Those old brick mills are still standing today. Some have been renovated as retirement homes for senior citizens.

At Portsmouth Navy Yard in Portsmouth, New Hampshire, just over 20 miles north, they were building submarines.

Members of my family and friends of the family, both male and female, all worked at these places during the war.

The story of the women walking side by side with a donkey is a terrible commentary about the treatment of women. Unfortunately, this kind of condition still exists in a similar way in some parts of the world. When one thinks about what women have done throughout history to help their countries, it is a pathetic shame that such degradation for women still continues. After all, we do constitute half of the human race.

Mal

Shoes!! Think of it!! Such an ordinary everyday apparel and part of the overall war effort!! Just think of the midnight oil that had been burning as the leaders of this effort tried to think of every single item that might lead to our survival (or death or capture). And Mal points out that family members and friends were all involved in the total effort.

Robby

And they did work night and day at these factories and mills during the war, Robby.

Mal

I can remember hearing the sound of gunfire whenever we walked past the Frigidaire Plant in Dayton, Ohio. They were testing the machine guns that were being made there. Frigidaire usually made kitchen applicances. But,like almost all of the factories, production was stopped and they turned to defense work. Even the small manufacturers joined the war effort. I had two such jobs during that period, grinding binocular lens at Univis Lens and testing the plungers in airplane starters at Midwest Industries. Like many women in those days, my husband was in the Army (hit the beaches at Normandy),I worked and took care of my son. He was just 9 months old when his father was drafted and he was 3 years old when his father "came home". Of course, I tried to make him aware that he had a "dad" by showing him a photo of his soldier father. But, that became a bit strange because as he grew, Bob, Jr. would call any man in an Army uniform "daddy". Oh! so many personal memories popping up!

The way our nation came together during that generation is absolutely astounding the more you think about it. Imagine - people who were used to producing refrigerators suddenly manuracturing machine guns. Plungers in airplane starters is a perfect example of the "innocuous" items I was mentioning earlier.

I'm glad those personal memories are "popping up," Mary. I'm sure that others who are lurking here are about to share some of theirs.

Robby

http://www.wasp-wwii.org/38/38.html

Does anyone here know how to turn that into a clickable?

I do not.

It is a wonderful memorial site to the 38 ladies who died as WASPS. As Robby says, "in the service of their country". But they were not recognized, nor were their deaths. If you read the biographies of each of the 38 here, you will identify with them and grieve for them.

And I think you will thank them.

I was very little when Pearl Harbour happened (3 yrs. old) but I can remember that we had company and they were playing cards. All of a sudden there was a lot of comotion and then all of us kids were told to be quite and listen to the radio. Of course I didn't know what I was listening to but all the adults were very quite and there was a feeling of something very wrong and even now I can feel how I felt but can't explain the feeling.

Five years ago I went to Pearl Harbour. We spent a very long time there and we we went out to the Arizona and I saw the oil slick it struck me that it could very well be there to symbolize the blood that was shead there, we all left crying. It is a very moving sight.

With Memorial Day approaching, this event came to my mind:

The Senior Hi-rise where I live has over 185 units, and all of the residents are old enough to have memories of WWII.
When my husband died three years ago, I was presented with an American flag at Fort Snelling, where he is buried. I donated the flag to our building, where it has fluttered proudly through the seasons on the flagpole just outside the entrance.
Last year, because that flag had begun to tatter and become faded, our resident veterans offered to replace it, and a modest flag-raising ceremony was planned for Memorial Day.
Everyone was invited to attend, including the new group of elderly Russian emigres, new citizens or about-to-be citizens.
The ceremony was solemn, and the new flag was raised by a uniformed group of veterans from the American Legion. It was about then that the entrance door came open, and a huge contingent of Russian emigres filed out. Bedecked, both men and women, with all their medals from WWII, they stood in a group, perhaps 50 or 60 of them, and, led by a former musical director from the Ukraine, proceeded to sing.
These people could barely speak English, some not at all, but they knew every word of “God Bless America.” It was so rousing, and so heartfelt, that everyone joined in, and we all demanded an encore.
Never have I witnessed, or been part of, a patriotic ceremony that stirred me as much. I will never forget.

Lorrie

Carollee: Most of us have never had a chance to visit the Memorial at Pearl Harbor. If you are willing, please tell us a bit more about what you saw there.

Robby

Lorrie: You have reminded us of a most important point and that is that the generation of which we speak was not solely American. If it was a "great" generation, is it possible that this greatness was also shown by people from other nations, as exemplified by the Russians who so gallantly fought in WWII and who showed in that demonstration their unity with Americans?

Robby

hello ,I have been off for two days sick ,at my daughters now,Ihave missed being on,enjoying the posts.Ihave lots of stories left:-) No Malryn,havnt got my book yet.hope to be back soon.gladys

Gladys: You say you "have lots of stories left" and we are waiting to hear them !!

Robby

I was in high school during WWII in Ft. Stockton, Texas. There was a training field for pilots there, and one of our volunteer jobs was to fold parachutes. We used the gymnasium. I can still see those chutes spread out on the floor, and think of the young lives entrusted to our young hands. We also put on "shows" for the boys at another base in Peyote, Texas. They had to enjoy anything in that remote wasteland! They even sent their army trucks to transport us the 75 miles there and back.

Folding parachutes!! Another example of the home front being part of the war effort. It is becoming more and more evident that this "greatness" was not limited to those in uniform. Who taught you how to fold parachutes, Smirley?

Robby

If you clicked onto the word "more" above, you saw some questions asked by our Host as we move through Brokaw's book. Questions which we will concentrate on beginning tomorrow. For example: "What do you remember of the days prior to 1929?" or "What happened to the families of those unemployed men who drifted across the continent?"

As you lie in bed tonight, thinking before you go off to sleep, may I suggest that you let your mind rest on these questions and the other questions listed above. Do they remind you of your family at that time or your neighbors or friends at that time?

Do you remember any actions at that time that you would describe as "great?" Please share with us.

Robby

While I worked in 1944-45, I took my little son to day-care at an elementary school in our neighborhood. He was there all day and was given meals and an afternoon nap.

Was this the time period when children's day care began outside the home?

Click the link below to access the Wasp Memorial pages.

Wasp Memorial pages

My mother left my baby sister at a free day nursery run by the Salvation Army in Haverhill, Massachusetts from 1938 to early 1941 while she went out to clean people's houses to earn money to support her family. My sister was five years old when our mother died in April, 1941, so my sister was pretty young when she was at the day nursery.

I hope you feel better soon, Gladys, and that your book comes.

Mal

MaryPage, thanks for the URL for the WASPs web site. What a nice tribute to those 38 young ladies! I read about each with a deep sense of admiration. My brother was in the Ferrying Command at Romulus MI during that time and he often commented about the planes that they had to pickup and deliver where needed.

yes I am a baby born april 14,1919. the time was tough but yet happy with family. the Bronx was my birthplace. went to grade school while Dad eorked several jobs as Insurance Salesman, milk deliverer to individual apartments, bread tp stpres/ Ot was hard but he kept us fed and housed. Mom took care of me, my brother and two twin girls. The family stayed together. As time went on, I progressed thru scholls and jobs. and finally inducted into Army January 1942. The time passed fast. A private with basic training in No. Carolinea sent tt\o Officer training Fort Sill Oklahoma. Assigned to Camp Chaffee at Fort Smith Arkansas. Life was good. I felt proud to be a 2nd Lt. in the Army. Married an Arkansas girl but unfortunately I was shipped to No. Africa after a short time. My time spent travelling all of Europe as the Army Unit to which assigned.That included Italy from South to North. Anzio beach head was no fun. Later Southern France then on to Germany. Finally got a letter froim my wife who was an Army Nurse. She left the States about two months After I did. What a life. Me in the Continent of Europe and finally found out she was in England. Oh well I could go on but thought to stop before talking about Bronze Stat and Purple heart.My message is that I was glad to do what had to be done just like my Dad had to do during the Depression.

As Torin I sign off.

I remember the troop trains that went through our little eastern Kansas town. They would stop briefly so that the engines could take on water, etc. My mother, who belonged to the American Legion auxillary, and I would go to the depot to hand out coffee and donuts to the soldiers through the train windows. I was in my early teens and found all those men in uniform to be very handsome and glamorous "men". Looking back, I realize that most of them were probably just scared kids on their way to a disembarkation point.

Phyll

Click the link below to read a very short true story about Pearl Harbor written by Dante Cinelli. Dante Cinelli, age 67, was a member of the Writers Exchange WREX which is found in the Writing, Language and Word Play folder on SeniorNet. This story appears here as it did when it was published in my electronic magazine, Sonata magazine for the arts, a year ago.

Just A Little Water, a True Story of Pearl Harbor

Torin: In just a short paragraph you packed in many intensive experiences. Basic training - marriage - Italy - Germany - England - Bronze Star - Purple Heart. As you say, you "could go on" so please do. We are looking forward to hearing from you again.

Phyll: You bring up another important group in WWII - the American Legion Auxiliary - which was formed with the American Legion after WWI. You are right about the servicemen being "scared kids" and so many of them were looking for surrogate mothers.

Robby

I remember how females were ill treated in the service, and was appalled. I admired them very much. My older sister would've gladly joined and done well (blind since age 6, but got an MS from UC Berkeley in spite of handicap.) Always thought of her when ignorent comments were made. Spent nearly 2 yrs in Europe; March 44 to Nov 45 in 9th airforce. Wife & I walked with "Granny D" for 30 miles between Sweetwater, TX and Abilene in early June last year. Nearly killed us 75yr olds, but were thrilled to see a monument to the WASP who trained at an airfield near Sweetwater. If you aren't familier with this 89 yr old woman who walked accross the US for 14 months for campaign finance reform, please go to; www.grannyd.com

The question of the day do you believe that women of this (prior 30's) generation raised the consciousness of women and changed the way woman lead their lives.....Well no one had an opinion on that question. I believe that it was the daughters who did the most to change womens attitudes so they were more apt to speak up when harrassed etc and other lifestyles changes.. We that is my age women continued on after the war in oour old ways, it was our childrens generation that spoke up and achieved what ever chantes there have been. Lessons learned are now being looked at as if a Great Generation were the driving force behind them but it was the Boomers who began pushing and getting things done, although they did have pretty Great Parents and the Freedom to do these things because a Great Generation really went out and saved a world for them to change. Not just Americans but dont forget the British and the Canadians who were there long before us.

I must say. I am so proud of all the young woman of the 40's who like the Wasps, and the Nurses who I personally knew, and all the others who gave their effort to winning that war. I did get my book

Gladys so hang in there Yours must be coming. Thank you Senior net for the book. The stories are great but you know the stories appearing in this discussion group are great too. Ordinary people doing extra ordinary things is true. Even if I would continue to argue semantics and superlatives. Faith

"Do you believe the women of this generation raised the place of their gender to new heights and changed the perception and the reality of women in all disciplines of American life?"

Yes I do, and I'll give you an example of three women who changed the perception of the role of women for many women.

First is Simone de Beauvoir, who wrote The Second Sex. Simone de Beauvoir was born in France in 1908.

Second is Betty Friedan, who wrote The Feminine Mystique. Friedan was born in the U.S. in 1921.

Third is Gloria Steinem, who was born in the U.S. in 1934. All three of these women influenced many women in the United States and other countries of the world.

It is interesting to note that Ms Friedan and Ms Steinem graduated from my alma mater, Smith College. So did Nancy Reagan.

Mal

MAL SHAME ON ME. I KNEW THAT. Thank you for the post. those woman were my generation, well and probably there are many more. I had Simons book in the 50's and Betty Friedan's work I follow also many others. My mother born in 1898, if she were alive would also remind me that woman today who can and always have been able, to vote spend little time learning of the FIGHT heir big sisters and mothers had She did tell us that I remember and made sure we did use that power of the vote. Faith.

What do you men remember of the days prior to 1929? Like me, you were undoubtedly a child, but perhaps you remember the wealth (or lack thereof) of your parents. As I indicated in an earlier posting, my father was on a 100% WWI disability pension but the amounts the government gave at that time were scandalous. My parents were able, however, to buy a house in 1926. It was an extremely modest house and I have already described here the lack of electricity, indoor plumbing, and gas when the house was bought.

I was taught, therefore, at an early age to make do or do without and I truly believe that the kind of life I led then strengthened me and enabled me to withstand many of the rigors during combat. I remember vividly many of the recruits crying in their beds the first and second nights at Ft. Dix. They were not only lonely and/or afraid, many of the more wealthy ones were soft in one way or another and did not know how to be self sufficient.

Did you men find that it was the war itself that made you "great" or do you believe that you had become "great" (perhaps in the 1920s) and that had helped you to survive during the war?

Robby

Good morning, Robby, it sounds as if you were "great" before you went away to war - not one crying in your bed for the soft life back home? But no matter how hard it was at home, could anything, any deprivation have prepared you for what was to come? I'm still wondering... someone here said earlier, (or was it in the book?) - character was something you found out you had during the war. A good question, Robby!

Here's another before-and-after question? Would the women of this generation have found their voices and recognized their ability, had there been no war at all?

Let's keep yesterday's "Question du Jour" up for another day

Do you believe the women of this generation raised the place of their gender to new heights and changed the perception and the reality of women in all disciplines of American life, as Tom Brokaw writes?

It was late in the day that anyone noticed it... and the comments between Mal and Faith were leading to an important realizatiion about the women of this "greatest generation".

There was much talk yesterday of women in the armed services, as well as the nurses, Red Cross volunteers, USO entertainers...who stepped out of the traditional role of women and went into a formerly all male arena of war. Was this the first time this ever happened in this country...was there anything like this in WWI? Is it any wonder these young men were confused and responded as they did - some very badly? They were willing to put their lives on the line to protect the hearth and home, the women and children...and here they were right along side them? Think of it! What kind of women were these "skirts"? Certainly not Mom and Sis, the bride?

I read yesterday that the Military brass - and Congress who resisted strongly the whole concept of women in the military - that it was Eleanor Roosevelt who pressed it and finally persuaded FDR who used hs Presidential power to create them... can you just imagine how happy the Military and Congress were about that?

And then the women at home...let's talk about what life was like at home while the war raged on...your life. What did you do during the war? What was your life like at war's end? Had your role changed from before the war? Were you happy to get back to the traditional role or had you changed?

And back to Robby's original question...was it the war effort that brought out your "mettle" or the years leading up to it that prepared you for change?

Don't want to forget to WELCOME Seldom, Torin, Smirley and Suzanne! Your names have been added to the roster. We hope you find your way back to us often in the days to come! It is amazing how so many details, like puzzle pieces are forming such a meaningful landscape...

Shoes! Mal, I used to teach in Lynn, Mass (for one year anyway) and often drove by those huge empty brick factories without much thought - except to think about what a blight on the landscape they were! Suddenly now, I can see the women working long hours during the war...Shoes!

Phyll, I'd be interested to hear more about your awareness that we were going to be involved in the war before Pearl Harbor...

This is for Mary Page and anyone else who finds links of interest and wishes to post them here
the magic formula is: <a href="copy/paste the URL from the top of the page"> NAME </a>
Mary P, would you know if the WASPS were treated differently than the WAVES, WACS?
Annafair, your post bears repeating and I have copied it for the future. Please continue...you have a way of summarizing complex situations succinctly with crystal clarity - I think it is your poet's eye!

I hope your Monday morning is as sunny as it is here...enjoy it!

In answer to your question, Joan, I believe the women of our generation would have found their voices whether or not there had been a war. It didn't take a war for Elizabeth Cady Stanton, who died in 1902, and Susan B. Anthony, who died in 1906, or Lucretia Mott to fight for women's suffrage. The historic Seneca Falls convention at which new ideas were proposed about the right of women to have the vote took place in 1848 long before World War I. Elizabeth Cady Stanton was the first woman ever to speak before the New York State Legislature. The work these courageous women did, all of whom were arrested more than once, was the precursor of what women in the Greatest Generation did much later.

I'd like to mention here that the minister of the church where I went when I was growing up enlisted in the Air Force and served in China and other Far Eastern places during the war. He had many stories to tell about the trials of the young men who fought in the war, some of which were very sad, indeed. The girls in my church were extremely upset when our minister went overseas because we all had a crush on him. When he came home on leave in that uniform we all "swooned". Remember that expression? His wife stayed home and did work in the church and raised her two children alone with Sunday services preached by interim ministers brought in each weekend from all over the state.

Mal

Thinking of my life before 1929, I realize with that wonderful hindsight that I was a bridge between the war on the far side (in which I was to participate) and the war on this side (in which my father participated.) He taught me many World War I songs and we harmonized together -- eg, "Tipperary", "Pack Up Your Troubles", "Mademoiselle From Armentieres" (the clean version) and "Rose of No Man's Land." As I said in an earlier posting, he took out a telegraphy practice kit he had brought home and he taught me the Morse Code. (In my Army basic training, I scored high on code and could have been in the Signal Corps as he was.) He spoke of Verdun and Rheims. And of course, the thought of World War I was never out of my mind as I saw him limp and his right hand shake.

When World War II came into my life, the philosophies and activities of war were not new to me. I had, in a sense, been prepared in the early 1920 years. Men, how about your life in the 1920s?

Robby

I wish I could put my hands on a study I used to have a copy of that looked at women's lives before and after WWII. The basis for the paper was the unusually high pressure in the 1950's for women to be "homemakers," or "housewives." The '50's was the decade of all those new television commercials showing women creating the perfect home with all the just-invented appliances to help her. That's when the push for the perfect floor shine and the perfect cup of coffee and the whitest white laundry was increased. What stays clearly in my mind from the journal article (because I was so stunned) were the higher numbers of women entering undergraduate and graduate level colleges in the 1930's than in the 1950's---the decades just before and just after WWII.

Another paper I read only a few years ago had such an interesting idea regarding when our culture condones women or men taking on behaviors associated with the other sex. The author suggested that women's work in the factories and other formerly male occupations in WWII were seen in the light of helping the men in the war effort, that it was viewed as temporary but necessary help for their men. Interestingly, the author compared that to today's men who help with household cleaning or childcare, leaving no doubt who the role still belongs to.

The spirit of the question in the heading is really important, though, because don't you just know that thousands of women had the time of their lives developing skills and working on such important projects as building airplanes and ships. Also, many risked their lives and were part of the huge military network that travelled the world to work for their country. Those images, those distinctly different images of women must have changed forever, as the question suggests, how we would view women. The '50's may have been an all out effort to glorify the wife/mother role----but that's just the point, it was a huge effort against that powerful new image created during the war. Something important did happen and there was a rush to undo it.

Good morning, Betty! Happy to hear from you again! Truly. I am very interested in the immediate post-war days (pre 50's). Of course everyone was ecstatic that the war was over and looked toward a return to "normalcy" - I'd like to hear from the women of this "greatest" generation who post here - were you eager or reluctant to return to or resume the traditional role you held or aspired to before the war intervened?

Now I really must be off to assess the damage I did to two new cars in our driveway yesterday! Have a good day!

It is actually exciting to read Mal and BettyG's posts. I am glad that they agree that woman's role was already changing before the war started and did change more heavily as our government used their services to build war supplies and to help wherever needed. I agree that the role changes started way back there in the early 1900's. Was so glad to see someone put so succinctly the campaign for woman's role as housewife and mother after the war. It wasn't so long after that Betty Friedan came along with her ideas of the Feminine Mystique. So we have, for a long time, been marching in the in the direction of woman's equality. The war may have speeded up the process and made all women feel the need for equality not just those who had college educations. I remeber a special on women in the war where some of those women who were working in factories found a talent that they didn't know they had and wanted to continue after the war doing their job. But, the companies wanted to rehire the returning men. As one man said, "What are we supposed to do? Offer the men a job as mothers and housekeepers" Well? Who knows!

We just watched "A League of Their Own" on TBS over the weekend. Now that was a comment on working women par excellence! Was so glad to see them inducted into the Baseball Hall of Fame.

The women in my family and others I knew who worked for the war effort all felt as if they were "helping" their country and the men and women who were overseas fighting the war. What was uppermost in their minds was the hope that their husbands and boyfriends would return soon so life would get back to "normal", normal being men going out to work and woman staying home cleaning the house and taking care of the kids and reassuming various outside the house activities they had before the war.

Her husband was not a participant in WWII except for the government job he had, but an aunt of mine is an example of this. She worked some hours in a factory doing war work at night and spent her time days taking care of her house and her kids. She never complained about dropping one role and assuming the other. What she talked about was the end of the war when she could stay home and do what she wanted to do rather what she considered her duty.

Though the time in the 50's seems like an overt attempt by various factions to stop progress women had made, it seems to me that it also was a reaction to war. The concept of home and families together was very important to almost everyone then. It seems to me that the 50's were a time of rest after a most strenuous exertion of energy and emotion by almost everyone, male or female.

I graduated from college in 1950 and saw plenty of my classmates going on to graduate school. I also saw some mighty independent women, regardless of what was being shown on TV. During that decade I was at home being a wife and mother, but had a few piano pupils to earn money for myself. I was active in politics and working for the rights of minorities and women, too, as well as writing for various small magazines in which I was published. My husband did not always like what I did, but he offered less resistance than later when he became a corporation executive.

Mal

Hello, You ask how Pearl Harbor changed my life; the answer is "Radically!!!" I had not been able to finish high school because of my mother's death and was literally dumped in the West Madison Street slums of Chicago. Although I had been rejected numerous times by the draft board, due to extrememly poor eyesight, finally my records were doctored up and I was in. First of all, I was able to attend several Army schools, including: the elite Adjutant General's Dep't School at Westchester, Pa; Sgt./Major's school, Brooklyn, etc. Also, serving as a Sgt./Maj. on a troop transport, I experienced Rome, Naples, Pompeii, Antwerp, etc., etc. - all the way from the Med. to the North Sea, six crossings of the Atlantic, including a 180 mph hurricane at sea. Most important, though, as a result of a total of 3+ years in the Army, I was able: 1) to get my high school diploma; 2) get my undergrad degree in psych from Grinnell College via the GI Bill; 3) get graduate degrees/work via both the GI Bill and the State of Illinois's similar program. With this background I was able to spend my professional career working with students with all sorts of problems: Learning Disabilities, behavior disorders, visual and hearing impaired, even one case of autism, one of juvenile schizophrenia, one with drug induced paranoia/schizophrenia, and several with criminal records. I wish credit could be given to whoever devised the GI Bill - how else could the GIs who gave up years of their lives in service to their country be compensated in a really meaningful way? I thank God for whoever had that vision!!! James - jimmck

James:

Well, Pearl Harbor certainly did change your life! Any other people here who lives were changed in such a "radical" way?

Getting back briefly to Joan's question: "What do you remember of the days prior to 1929," I'm wondering if anyone here can complete the final three lines of this song and tell me what it is about:

There's a rose that grows in no man's land
And it's beautiful to see
Tho it's filled with tears
It will live for years
In the garden of my memory
It's the one red rose the soldier knows
It's the work of the Master's hand.

Then three more lines.

Robby

Joan asks above: "Was anti-Semitism prevalent in America in those pre-war times? I have a very strong feeling that there are lurkers here who have an immediate reaction to that question and could give us some relevant answers. If we are to tell an honest story of that generation "as it was" and not as we would like it to be known, then this is the time and place.

We all know about the Holocaust. How was it over here in the 1920s and 1930s?

I am aware that memories of this sort hurt but sharing is often an excellent means of therapy. What was America like in those days?

Robby

I think we may be forgetting one of the big reasons that women were "encouraged" to go back to their homes after the war was over, and leave the jobs that many of them really enjoyed. There were not that many jobs yet for the returning serviceman to fulfill. Most of them were promised their old jobs back before they left for training camp, and the women were aware of this. In time, of course, with the gearing up of manufacturing, selling, distributing, advertising, and all else involved with getting civilian products back on the market, there were enough jobs to be had for anyone who wanted to work, regardless of gender. And, of course, it took two salaries to pay for the purchase of most of it. The prices went up for everything, which meant that two salaries were often needed just to pay for necessities. I remember how thrilled we were that my MIL still had the old family homestead, which she rented to us for $35 a month. Three room apartments cost much more than that, in many cases. I think it was fortunate that there were many women who wanted to be only a housewife again. Remember the men who said, "My wife will work only over my dead body!"? Not too many wives complied with that remark. (Mine thought it was just neat that I had my teaching certificate and therefore could work any time...which I did, part-time after my youngest turned two and had a surrogate mother right next door.)

Love...Katie

Robby----Not a personal account, but I am familiar with American literature from the twenties and thirties. Fitzgerald, Hemingway, Faulkner. Antisemitism was throughout the culture. Our authors reflect the times. Add to the above T.S. Eliot and Ezra Pound for poets.

Maryal

Maryal: An excellent point! We of course do not want to get into a literature discussion in this particular forum but can you give one or two examples where we can see the 1920s and 1930s a bit clearer through the eyes of certain authors?

And when you say "anti-Semitism was throughout the culture", would you expand a bit on that, please?

Robby

Robby---Sure, be glad to expand. Here are some very quick examples:

Hemingway in The Sun Also Rises creates Cohen as a somewhat laughable misfit who can't get the girl. He is the butt of many jokes.

Faulkner---The Sound and the Fury--section 3 (Jason Compson's section)--first person--Jason rants throughout his section about all the Jews (he doesn't capitalize) up in New York who are cheating him out of his money. He is trading in futures.

Fitzgerald--References throughout The Great Gatsby along with some implications that Gatsby might be part Jewish.

Eliot------from "Gerontion"

My house is a decayed house,
And the jew squats on the window sill, the owner,
Spawned in some estaminet of Antwerp.

Pound---I don't have my copy of the Cantos at home, but many references to usury and Jews. Pound later makes radio broadcasts in support of Mussolini.

Maryal

I was born in Vallejo, CA in 1923. Father was an engineer at Mare Island Navy yard. When the first Jew was hired at his office in the mid 1930s my family had their family over to our house a couple of Sundays a month because they were not accepted by most fellow workers. Then while I was in the army my family was instumental in getting our school district to hire the first Jewish teacher. It was a struggle and lots of animosity. Imagine!! My blind sister also helped start the Council for Civic Unity during the war years because so many blacks were getting defense jobs at Mare Island and they were even more discriminated against. For this, my sister was investigated by the FBI because they thought she must be some sort of Communist agitator because "she invited a black to dinner" (FBI quote to her friends) at our house. She actually was a devout Catholic. Some friends were lost because they were afraid for their government jobs on Mare Island. I've never liked the FBI since. So yes, Robby, anti-semitism was prevalent pre-war in my experience.

Seldom: Thank you for sharing those poignant memories indicating that "anti-Semitism was prevalent pre-war." I think of those terms "first Jew" at the office and "first Jewish teacher" in the district. To think that people would be aware when the "first" of anything was hired! Naturally we do not want to paint that generation with a broad brush -- there were many fair-minded people, ex: your family -- but the word you used was "prevalent." Your honest sharing is appreciated.

Robby

Hey, Gang, I got my book today!! THANK YOU!!!

And now, since I'm always at a loss for words, maybe I'll be able to say something.

But seriously, thank you very much.

Bill H

Bill H: Terrific! Now, in addition to reading the book, if you will look at the postings of the last 3-4 days, you can be right up with us.

Robby

Betty G thank goodness your back I bet you have been lurking. I do also appreciate deeply the thoughtful questions asked by JoanP and the answeres that are coming out here. Mal and all you woman netters, I also am touched by all the sharing stories. and your knowledge. I hope more Wacs and Nurses can share. I knew (after the war) several women who were Nurses in both theaters of war. Faith

Last summer we discussed the book entitled "WE BAND OF ANGELS" - the true stories of American nurses trapped on Bataan in the South Pacific and captured by the Japanese. It was both fascinating and terrible to read of the hardships endured and the fortitude shown by those nurses. If you care to look over the discussion here is a clickable:

We Band of Angels

I am so dissapointed ,no book again.Ijust got back from the docs my BP is sky high .Iam missing a lot Iknow thanks to those that said hello !!1 gladys .

Ella: Thank you for that clickable. We are obtaining ever increasing information about those people, both male and female, who lived prior to WWII and some of whom later fought in the war.

Robby

Gladys: I am so sorry that you have not yet received your book. I know that Joan and Marcie are working on it. However, all the comments in the various postings are open to you and we look regularly for your memories and thoughts.

Robby

Joan, I know that the WASPS were treated quite differently from the WAVES and the WACS by our government. I do not believe the general public knew anything about the WASPS. I do not remember knowing anything about them at the time, and do not remember any recruiting posters or anything asking women to join up with them.

But they had NO BENEFITS. They had uniforms, but were not considered really part of the military services. The basic truth was that it just stuck in the gullets of the men to admit women were flying those huge planes. They were in denial! Deep denial! Even on Paper!

I was working for a very large bank that was in the throes of really branching out in 1962. We actually had quite a confab about the need of the bank to hire a "show Jew" because we were moving into a fairly sizable suburb of Washington, D.C. that had a fair number of Jewish residents. I'm serious. So they did hire one. A very nice young boy. I used to argue when I heard people ranting that "the Jews Own All The Banking in This Country", etc. I knew it was not only not true, but that they were having a hard time getting jobs in banking! Oh, and in those days, if you had a Jewish name or even one that someone THOUGHT sounded Jewish, you got asked if you were Jewish. This was back when you could do this and get away with it. And you could forget about getting a call about that job opening!

How many times on my lonely 40 combat missions did I caress the gunsight of my turret and didn't know that it was being manufactured by Maiden-form or such bra company! And by women! While rebuilding an old Liberator bomber turret , we found the mfgr name!!

suntaug.that was funny ,I worked on guns gun carriges,to be exact! I used to work with a jewish girl before the war, it was in a cake and pie and bread all kinds of goodies.she was the manager.we used to Save `things which was they would order and pick up later so it wouldnt be gone ,war was in the air even then,and must confess,she saved things for her special poeple which was done but isnt right she was up at the pick up end giving someone her order.A lady asked her if she had any left ,of what she was letting her customer have .she replied no they have all gone ,the lady turned on her heeel went to the counter picked up a custard pie,and slapped it in her face ,calling her a Jewish b--.it sounds like a comic show I know ,but it brought it home to us that day,Not long afterwards she changed her name.gladys

I was born and raised in the north Bronx, near Mt. Vernon, of Jewish immigrant parents. I've posted on this subject previously, but will delve into it further. As a child I was vilified as "Christ killer" - I swear I didn't do it - "kike, yid, dirty Jew, Goddamn Jew-bastard", and many other choice epithets that I've forgotten. Well, at eighty It's not pleasant or easy remembering.

I was beaten up many times by my school mates, taunted that Hitler would come here and "take care of me," and other lovely threats to my present and future safety. I lived in fear growing up, of Hitler's coming to power, with all the terrors he brought to people who were either 100 per cent Jewish, or had even a fraction of "Jewish blood" that could be traced.

I listened to Father Coughlin on the radio, talking about the world wide conspiracy of "Jewish bankers". I remember one Senator Bilbo of the great state of Mississippi, who addressed replies to mail from minorities with the salutation, "Dear Wop, Dear Kike, Dear Nigger", and other ethnic slurs.

When I graduated high school, I was refused employment by G.E. because they told me directly to my face that they didn't hire Jews. My sister, a graduate of Hunter College, was refused employment as a sales clerk by R. H. Macy's because she was Jewish.

At this late stage of my life, I still feel the pain as I relive these almost forgotten memories. We may have been "the greatest generation," but believe me when I say that doesn't apply to a large number of people. I guess Mr. Tom Brokaw didn't include that in his research

These are terrible stories of anti-Semitism. I hope my friend, Bob C is reading these. His stories of his childhood in New York are even worse, and they break my heart.

Edit. Bob was posting at the same time I was. Now you see what I mean.

Mal

bobc.that was an awful thing to live with and that was without a war.I do hope you found the happiness you deserve.My story was in England,seems like no matter where we go ,we run into hate.I cringe when I hear a small child say to his mother or parents at all,`I hate you ~.If it is not corrected right away,the fermentation starts!wouldnt it be nice to erase that word.when Iwas a child we wer.nt allowed to say it ,we did of course when we thoughtnwe could get away with it ,but at least didnt say it in the home ..Ifind it is an expression ,I dont use only because we were brought up not to.to even try and change this hate ,we have to start right from the word go,and not allow it said .Any thing is worth a try.gladys

Robby B, I don't know the last three lines of the poem you posted. But I am reminded of another poem of the years prior to '29.

"In Flander's Field the Poppies grow
Amid the crosses row on row."

That was about the war to end all wars. Too bad it had to be done all over again. There have been many "Flander's Fields" since then.

I had an uncle in WW1--infantry. He would never talk about it. And there are so many more men from WW11 just like him that will not talk about their experience. After we came back to work, I asked a man I worked with what part of France his division was in. And in a loud tone of voice--so unusuall for him--he said "I don't talk about it."

Another man told me of sceine he could never forget. In France, before entering what was thought to be a desserted farm house, he threw a grenade in one of the windows, as was the procedure. When he entered he found no enemy soldiers, but instead a young woman and her infant dead because of the grenade he had thrown. At he time he was still reciving therapy for that experience.

I am so thankful bobc posted here as he did.

The thing is, bobc, most people in this country are not aware of these things. There are so few Jewish peoples in our midst that we do not really get to know them. And it is too rare that we hear their stories of their treatment from US! Right here in the good old "It doesn't happen here" U.S. of A.

But the hatemongers, with their "Protocols of Zion" and other lies that have been totally repudiated by historians, educators, religious leaders of all stripes, and Jewish leaders themselves, are still fulminating this stuff all over the place and finding large groups of people who totally and absolutely believe it is true.

My theory about the Holocaust is that we ALL did it. We are ALL responsible. Hitler thought it up, the Nazis carried it out; but the whole world was partner to allowing it to happen.

There was a shipload of Jews fleeing Hitler that came to this country for asylum. The Congress and the President were begged to intervene. The final decision was that we did not want "any more" Jews in this country. I think there were 900 on board? Mostly children? The St. Louis, was it called? And we turned them away, as did every other country they begged asylum from. They had to go back to Europe and most lost their lives in the extermination camps. I am writing this from memory, so my facts may not be perfect.

With all my heart I am hoping this country will really face up to bigotry to the point that they teach children in grade and high school, showing the evil things said in one column of a page and the REAL TRUTH in the other column. This should bring it home.

For a real eye opener, I recommend " I WILL BEAR WITNESS" by Victor Klemperer.

You will die a million deaths reading it.

It covers the years 1942 to 1945, bit by bit by endlessly impossible bit.

It is real history, every word of it.

Robby,

Found it. The last three lines of that song are:

Neath the war's great curse
Stands the Red Cross nurse.
She's the Rose of No Mans Land.

Phyll

Ahm Robby, Phyll, that's pretty! Where did you find it? It sounds as if the guys held the RC nurse in high esteem, as opposed to a "skirt" of questionable virtue?

Well, the first car I took out in our driveway yesterday (our brand new, one-month old car) will be a mere $200 paint job. Should be ready tomorrow. Now we wait till son#3's girlfriend gets the news from her insurance company(agggghh)...I guess I don't get that new computer in the near future. Too bad - this one takes so loooooooooong to load, and you should hear the grinding noises!!!

This afternoon we have one newcomer to Welcome - James - or shall we call you "jimmck"? Your choice? You've been added to the roster. You thanked the GI bill and we'll be hearing a lot more about that in the coming weeks...please stay around to add to this discussion?

KKatie, that's an excellent point! Women gave up the jobs they were holding outside the home because the men needed work when they returned. Jobs were scarce! And housing too! There was a photo in yesterday's Washington Post, I think it was of temporary homes set up by the government at the docks - whole families on the riverfront - camping out because of the housing shortage. Am I right to conclude that women weren't unhappy about giving up working in shoe, tank, gun factories...but they enjoyed - and missed the comraderie and the independence the paycheck afforded?

I'd like to hear from the rest of our lady posters...were you happy to return to the normal, traditional role in your home with your children after the war, or reluctant to return...

Mal, I'm wondering about the "various factions" that stopped progress in the 50's? I'm guessing advertising and the television (?) that showed the happy homemaker in the kitchen? I always wonder if advertising is a reflection of what is or if it is attempting to influence? If someone wants to pay to advertise a stove, and appeal to someone who wants to bake the apple pie the housewife sees coming out of the oven, it seems they are appealing to what is. If a TV show shows June Cleaver making cookies for the "Beave", is the show attempting to show a slice of true life? I'm not saying that all were happy watching these shows, but I am wondering about what you see as the factions that were attempting to keep the woman in her home in the fifties.

And one more observation about the women of the "greatest" - numbers of college graduates may not have been high for the woman coming of age during the war years, (this is not surprising, is it?)~ but I'd like to hear from the women of the "greatest" ~ how many of you made sure your daughters went?

BobC, please don't think I'm being insensitive...those epithets are still painful to remember..but may I ask you this? You are a member of the "greatest" - you remember as a child being taunted for your race...but where do you think children your age learned such language and hatred? Not from one another...but from the previous generation, right? I'm more interested in hearing how the "greatest" responded when they came of age...during the War? How did people respond when they learned of the death camps? When did you first hear about them? My question is this...did the situation improve for Jews in this country among your own generation after the war?

Mary Page.yes you are right remember following that story ,iwas old enough to realise,how every one was pushing the responsibilty ,on to one another .Herman woulk wrote a book about it ,Iread it but the title escapes me just now.no doubt,this evil is passed on ,been around since I have been alive ,that is that is better part of a century,and heard your parents talk of atrocities. gladys

Hi Gladys, we were posting at the same time? What was the racial climate in England before and during the war? When did you first hear of the death camps? What was the reaction?

Joan, advertising follows trends of the times which appear to be the bent of the consumer. After all, advertising is about consumerism and money.

As far as anti-Semitism is concerned in relation to Bob C's post, it doesn't matter where the epithets about Jews and other minorities in tnis country came from during World War II. Prejudices still exist in this new millennium as any number of people from minorities can testify. Witness the racial hate killings in Pittsburgh recently. And where did these prejudices come from?

Mal

Joan and Robby,

Here is a little history I found with the words to Rose of No Man's Land.

The Rose of No Man's Land

J Caddigan / J Brennan

"Mid the war's great curse stands the Red Cross nurse she's the rose of no man's land"

"Those who have been on the receiving end of their care and compassion will never forget the war time nurse. My great aunt, Annie Meehan, served on the battlefield of World War I as a member of the Carmelites, a medical order of nuns. Recruited in Ireland, she was stationed at Lisieux, France, and was decorated by the French government. Written just after the war in l918 and kept alive by America's barbershop singers, this song is a tribute to all those dedicated women who, with a smile on their lips and fatigue in their eyes, worked to keep death at a distance. (Jerry Vogel Music/ASCAP)"

Women have always gone to war, in one capacity or another. I agree that their numbers were greater in WWII and in more traditionally male jobs than in previous wars.

Phyll

Where is hate ever learned. We just had a synagogue bombing in Sacramento. The young men on trial say they would do it againand these same one's beat and killed a gay young man. They are haters. Haters of anything different than they are. Another fact is that Hitlers birthday always brings these hate mongers out of the woodwork. Re Oaklahoma Bombing, Highschool shooting etc. The lessons one generation learned about the horrible results of hate re: Death camps, genocide and so on do not mean that everyone learned and one thing this discussion does is show that all the stuff creating hate toward a group be it based on color, religion, or sex orientation, is still with us. Was always active in the US and in the Greatest Generation too, way before Father Coughlin and his notorious Radio Show The problem is what can we do about it. My heart aches for BobC. and anyone else with similiar stories. It is also a fortunate thing that out of the 400 million or more people in the United States there are so few of them actively involved with hate groups. Can I talk to my grandchildren about this discussion so they will see what we old folks are talking about? You bet I can. I wish they could witness this whole discussion all the posts from the beginning. I wonder if they would learn anything. Again I say I have great hope and expectations for their generation. Faith

I can't believe all the typing errors in my last message. I just want to correct three words Suma Cum Laude -- I am probably still mispelling it and I won't try to correct the others.My husband wants me to tell what happened to him in army training. He had an anti- semitic sgt., who used to give the worst assignments to men with Jewish sounding last names. For some reason he decided my husband looked Jewish and he would call out his name. My husband never told him that he was of Greek & Polish ancestry and joined his friends in whatever they were assigned to. This sgt was very obvious in his anti-semitic attitude but what about the hidden predjudices in people? Judy & Norman

Yes, it is obvious from the various postings that even as men were getting into uniform here to fight Hitler's anti-Semitism that anti-Jewish feelings and actions also occurred here. We could continue on with these sagas of hate because they obviously existed even in that generation. The point has been made. I would like, however, to suggest that we move on to other sub-topics and in doing so, I would like to share a story I told in the group that had been discussing The Good War.

I was a First Sergeant in an Infantry Company. For those who are not acquainted with military ranks, this is the hated Top Kick who swears at the guys and gives them jobs to do. (I like to think that I was not quite that bad.) As our division was still in the States and on maneuvers and we were approaching the Christmas of 1943, the I&R (Intelligence & Reconnaissance) Sergeant came to me and made an offer. He was Jewish and I still 60 years later remember his name - Martin Shapiro. Bless you, Martin, wherever you are. He said that he and the other Jewish members of the company had gotten together, talked about it, and were now offering to do all (ALL) the required duties on Christmas Day so that the remaining Christian soldiers could have a true Christmas. The offer was obviously made in good faith, I accepted it, they did all required work completely and well, and the rest of the company did, I am pleased to say, thank those Jewish fellows for their beautiful spiritual move. With your permission, can we end that topic on this high note?

Yes, Phyll, you found the last three lines of the Rose of No Man's Land. My father told me often about those great Red Cross Nurses. One of them probably nursed him on the battlefield before he was taken to the hospital.

Robby

Perhaps I missed it but did anyone here refer to Joan's wondering about what was happening to the families of those homeless men who were "drifting" across the nation looking for work? We hear so much these days about the "homeless" but I'm sure that a number of us here must remember about the "bums," the "hoboes" who hopped freight cars looking for work in the 1930s and were just trying to survive. Who took care of those poor fellows? Who took care of the poor familes of those fellows who were married. Who remembers?

Robby

I just received the book and realized two things: I am not a part of "The Greatest Generation" but my husband is. I was born in 1934 in Germany, he was born in 1922 in Ohio. SO - I signed him up instead of me for this discussion under the name "Harold", and if I can get him to share some of his memories, of which there are many interesting ones, especially from the Pacific during WW2, then you are all in for a treat. I persuaded him to write his life story for our children and grandchildren and he has started doing it. I can't believe we've been married for 43 years this month and I'm still discovering new things about this wonderful man. I will become a lurker and learn from all of you too. It's a little difficult sometimes to have been "the enemy" and I have to remind myself that I was but a child when history went berserk in Germany, but - as the Bible says: The sins of the father........... I can only atone for some of it by being understanding and tolerant to all people.

Britta: Good to see you again after all your wonderful postings in Good War!! We are looking forward to meeting your husband, Harold, but please don't let yourself be just a lurker. OK - you're just a youngster! We accept that but keep our brain cells stimulated!

Robby

Judy and Norman,

Good question, about hidden prejudices. "Some of my best friends are..." and "completely colorblind" and other signs hint at lack of information. But what I really believe is that all of us are steeped in prejudices. I consider myself really diligent in listening for them in myself and even so, the more I learn the better I understand how much there is to learn. There is something inherently intimidating (frightening?) about something or someone different than ourselves. We are, in general, uncomfortable with differences. Of course, the irony in all this is how the light of inspection usually reveals more similarities than differences. We are more like our gay neighbors than we are different. Think how uncomfortable a thought that is to millions of people.

I feel so uninformed about mistreatment of Jewish people in this country. Growing up in the south, I learned the distances from many people of color but had almost no experiences with Jewish people---except the awful sayings regarding bargaining, etc. A few years ago, I read all of Herman Wouk's novels, almost all (all?) tracing the Jewish history. And, yes, the incident of the U.S. turning away that large ship was utterly shameful---even in the midst of learning about the attempted extermination of a race of people, we turned them away. Wouk is a powerful writer and has spent his life writing historical fiction that teaches so much. Marjorie Morningstar, the movie, the book, captured my heart as a very little girl. It was later as an adult that I realized all the Jewish connections. (Natalie Wood, Gene Kelly)

You see, that's what wars and dire emergency alliances created because of wars are all about. They put people with very dissimilar beliefs in the same survival foxhole, so to speak.

Who cares if the person next to you is a different religion, color, gender or race from what you are when something's coming at both of you which could threaten your lives or knock one or both your heads off when one of you, black, yellow, red or white, Christian or Jew, Buddhist, Muslim, male or female, might save the life of the other one?

Unfortunately, when the danger has passed and things have calmed down, we suddenly remember the differences and don't mingle together or talk to each other because we might somehow find out that those differences aren't worth a hill of beans.

Acknowledging this fact threatens the structure of our particular faiths and the various principles on which we base our lives, and who the heck wants to question those?

In my own particular view, it's a whole lot easier to talk about poppies in Flanders Field and old World War I songs than it is to talk about the very cruel reality that's been mentioned here today about 1. the role of women in the world in the past and present and 2. the prejudice and bigotry that exist because of emphasis on racial and religious differences and ethnicity which cause wars and have existed in the United States and other countries not just now, but long, long before the Greatest Generation came on the scene that persist to this day in this new millennium year, 2000.

World War II drew us together because we all had the same survival instinct. If we didn't pull together, we'd die. Why not pull together for world peace for the same reason?

Mal

Your "high note" request came as I was writing/posting.

Would that we could, Mal. Everyone knows ideals and still, there'll never be "a perfect world" as long as there are flaws in the human race.

Robby, you're too kind

)

Malryn, your name is eloquence today.

Britta, it's not idealism I was talking about; it's world survival.

Mal

I take it that I am the only one here who remembers the homeless hopping on and off the freight cars, sitting at night by the railroad tracks, and sharing whatever food they had. My gosh, I didn't know I was that aged!!

Robby

No, Robby, you aren't the only one that remembers that time--if that makes us aged then so be it. I prefer to consider it as "matured".

I related this story early on but it does speak to what you were talking about. I remember the occasional knock on our back door and a man asking my mother if she had anything to spare for him to eat. She always found something. It was sort of a puzzle to us as to how they would come to our door because we didn't live near the railroad nor near a main highway. We found out some time later that the "grapevine" for these men was very efficient and by word of mouth they would pass on who was the "good woman" in such and such a town. We discovered later that a secret symbol was placed somewhere on the house that told the passers-through that here was a woman who would give them something to eat. Sometimes they would offer to do some little odd job around the house to pay for the food that she gave them. They were desperate men but they were proud.

Also, because it affected the area where I lived (the eastern prairies of Kansas) I remember very clearly the Dust Bowl years. For those of you who know Kansas you will know that the wind blows almost constantly and I can remember the brown haze in the air and my mother trying to stuff rags around the window sills to keep that fine dust from coming into the house. Many, many families had to give up their farm homes because all the crops had dried up in the drought.

In those years and in that place the women didn't have to worry a lot about their place in society's hierarchy--they worked shoulder to shoulder with their men just to keep things going. And the men were grateful for them.

Phyll

So, tell more about the roaming homeless men, Robby. Maybe it will jog someone's memory.

Moving on sounds fine, but would also welcome reading more memories of prejudices, too, even after "moving on." (My old research interests never die off. They just hang around and irritate others.)

This is what I had posted before about my Uncle Ben.

"The mention of "bums", also brought back memories of when my only uncle would come to visit. I would run upstairs and hide, as I was afraid of him. He was a "bum" who lost one arm jumping off of a freight train. He lost his life crossing a highway in California when I was a teenager. My dad had taken him in several times, getting him a job and clothing. But, he never stayed long, Uncle Ben just had the wonderlust spirit." So really, this poor soul never acknowledged that he had a family and chose the life of being homeless.

We lived just a block and a half from the railroad tracks, and my mother feed those who knocked at our back door. Yes, they did have a "grapevine" system. In fact, on the back door of our garage, my mother found that someone had painted the initials JAM, and she said that it meant, "just a meal".

It is important that those here who are younger realize that when we say "bums," we are not talking about people without character. In the early 1930s 11,000 out of 24,000 banks failed and people who had money yesterday were broke today. People suddenly had to "make do" and people often traded items between themselves because they had no money. There were long bread and soup lines composed of people who just last week were wearing business suits and working in offices. The symbolic cartoon of those days was the suddenly poor individual standing on the corner selling apples. I don't know the figures but many individuals went emotionally "over the edge." As terrible as homelessness is now, the enormity of it does not even compare with the homelessness of the 1930s.

Robby

Betty I have those old scripts in my head I have to root out all the time, and I am sure most people do. If it takes eternal vigilance to avoid world wars then it also takes personal eternal vigilance to avoid the kind of hate that causes wars on street corners and in school yards. Avoid the hate in homes where men don't know what is requested or required of them by woman who are tryng byt dont know how, to live the revolution that is incomplete. The statement -changed the preception "and the reality of" woman forever-.suggests the (revolution) is over. That revolution when ever it started in 1600', or in the 60's when daughters picked up the banner , or now with my grandaughters are still fighting for rights they were told they had. Just like black people who were told everything is ok now we have passed the Civil Rights Bill. I can not write as clearly as many of the posters. I think it is because I have a lot of emotion tied up in my thoughts about women and the "everything is all right now" and it is not. It should not take another war. It should come through education and exactly what we are doing here which is , I hope anyway, having open discussions. Faith

ROBBY...the only hobos I knew about were the ones I saw in the movies. I was a city kid, who lived nowhere near a railroad track. The funny thing is, many, many years later...in 1983, to be exact...I met the King of the Hobos, and I wish I could remember his name. He knew my dad, who was pretty well-known, and came to the funeral home to pay his respects after my dad died. Not only that, he gave us his walking stick, which was placed in the coffin, to aid my father in his future travels. I feel sure that The King was not homeless, in the long run, but he spent all his time riding the rails and being in parades and making all sorts of public appearances. Since he was at least my dad's age, he probably did start out exactly as the thousands of others who depended on the generosity of others.

Love...Katie

Hi everyone,

I was born Nov.of 1939 in Alabama. I was wondering if I would have anything to contribute to this discussion. I went back and started reading some of your posts and found all kinds of memories coming into my head.

I was also a "late" baby to my family. I had two brothers, one 17 when I was born and the other 8 years old. I had two brothers who died at an early age whom I never knew. I don't remember seeing the oldest of my two brother's until I was about 3years old. He was in the Marines and had come home on furlough. The next time I saw him was when he came home from the war.

My mother was born in 1899 and my Dad was 3 0r 4 years older. His Dad fought in the Civil War.

I remember them talking about the depression,the banks,(my uncle wouldn't keep his money in the bank anymore because he had lost what he had earlier.) He would tell his wife, "if the house catches on fire, throw that old trunk out first,"as that's where he kept his money.Also they talked about the Ho-Bo's, or bums.

I'm sorry if this has been too long. I just got excited with the memories.

Kathy

Kathy: Of course you have things to contribute to this discussion. And your method is a tried and true one -- i.e., go back and read some of the comments and these will stir up your memories. Please come back and talk with us some more.

We have spoken a bit about discrimination as we remember it in those times. Referring to Joan's question above: "Did your own parents speak against other ethnic groups in your neighborhood?" In an earlier posting, I told of my mother's attitude and songs that my father and I used to sing. What are your memories of what went on in your family?

Robby

Good morning Robby! This is beginning to sound like the "Dorothy and Dick" show, do you remember that?

I'm so happy to see you have found your way back to us,Britta! Just so you all know, this "enemy" as Britta describes herself, was a young girl in Dresden during the fire-bombing! Enemy indeed! Welcome back, Britta!

And another newbie, another big WELCOME, Kathy! Of course that wasn't too long! And your excitement is contagious! Come back to us often and spread some more!

Hmm...before the war and racial attitudes at home...nothing! No memories at all - except- one little song taught to me by a babysitter(white) that sticks in my head - seems to make no sense at all now, but is it indicative of the times...it surely isn't anything I passed on to my own children...but marvel that it is still in my brain - taking up precious gray matter!

"Oh I had a little niggah,
And he wouldn't grow no biggah
So I put him in the windah for a show...
And he fell out the windah
And he broke his little fingah
And he couldn't play the ole banjo...

What did you learn as a child, and then as you were growing up - in your own home that began to shape your reaction to those who were racially "different" from yourself - before the war? Were your own parents intolerant towards another ethnic group in your neighborhood? What effect did this have on you?

Did the war change your attitudes at all?

I wish you all a fine day! It's raining here and that's good! I shoveled too much dirt and mulch yesterday and today have an excuse to sit and read!

Look forward to hearing from you!
Joan

Joan: Yes, I remember "Dorothy and Dick." There is another radio show I'll bet you don't remember. Her name was Jinx Falkenburg (she was a model) but I don't remember her husband's name. They had a daily "couples" show.

Robby

Hi! Haven't posted in eons but perhaps some of you who I corresponeded are still there. I heard Tom the other day on Larry King I believe and I thought I would send a note of my experience. Though I was only 7 years old when the WWII ended, I only have fond memories of the GIs who were stationed in Japan at that time. They gave me Wrigley's chewing gum, Hershey bars and sometimes when we waved the trains passing by in Chigasaki, they threw K or C ration at us. I remember the cans were all brown and I believe there were a small pack of Camel or Lucky Strike in them. Probably that was the first time I smoked a cigarette. I didn't understand English then but we could still communicate. I also remember powdered coffee which I tasted with disgust but powdered lemmondate which I tasted without water was fine. That was my first taste of America and I guess my love with this country. Thanks to the great generation. Incidentally, I'm sending this note from Paris. If Joan is there, say hi and hopefully I can communicate better in French when I return. Regards. Yuri

Yuri: So good to have you with us! You apparently know Joan and others in Senior Net so "welcome back." You can add a much dimension to our discussions by giving the Japanese approach that the rest of us cannot give. Please read some of the previous postings (if you have not already done so) and give us your thoughts on what was described by Tom Brokaw as the "greatest generation."

We are looking forward to hearing from you soon -- especially from Paris!!

Robby

I was a teen during ww2 but I remember a few things. I had two brothers in the service. One in the European conflicts and one on Guam(I think) a brother-in-law in the navy stationed at Iwo Jima. He related some stories, but neither of my brothers related as I can remember. My husband was given Tom's Greatest Generation book on tape. My husband was in the signal corp in the Navy. We listened to it together. I thought it was wonderful and listening to Tom's voice was great.

Imaknitter: (I love that pseudonym!) You found the tape of "Greatest Generation" wonderful. What was your husband's reaction?

Any reactions from other members of your family?

Robby

Mailman just came and I have received my book "The Greatest Generation Speaks". Now I hope to find time to read it. Thank-you Senior Net.

In our home, I don't recall any remarks about others who were different from us. My parents always told us it wasn't nice to call people names who were of another religion or another race.

I received my book, The Greatest Generation, yesterday and am very appreciative. I read everything up to the individual stories last night and have been reading the postings here regularly. I've enjoyed the memories and am in awe of all the thoughtful speculation that's been going on about the current generation.

I believe that the "greatest generation" Brokaw speaks of was able to rise to the occasion and do what they had to do. They had the Depression to deal with before that, a kind of trial by fire. Many of them had to grow up in a hurry.

The question is, could any generation do the same thing??? Could the current generation, so accustomed to affluence(well many of them,)manage to leave their lives behind and meet the challenge? I want to hope so.

I've been brought to tears by the astonishing response to my post regarding the anti-Semitism I faced growing up in this beloved country of ours. I want to thank all of you who have shown such sympathy and understanding of the difficult road minorities have faced in the past, and still do, unfortunately, in the present.

I would like to respond directly to Joan Pearson, who asked about being "--taunted for your race." I don't wish to nitpick, but Jews are no more a race than are Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, or any other religious group. It's a common misunderstanding, and I merely wish to correct it, for the record.

She also asks how I've fared, since that turbulent time. Well, I am proud and happy to say I've done outstandingly well. After the war, I came to our Nation's capital, where I found employment as a court reporter with the United States Congress. I have had the privilege of sitting in on the goings on of the highest etchelons of Government, from Presidents to Cabinet officers, elites of private and public service. I have had the highest security clearances, giving me a window to the world. In short, I have found happiness and success. I've been married to my beautiful bride for 51 years. I have two wonderful children and five grandchildren, with the grandchildren being the greatest that ever were. If Mr. Brokaw would like to write a book about them, I am sure it would be another best seller.

BobC

Not only that, Bob C and his wife, Ann, are two of the finest, kindest, most generous and loving Americans I have ever known.

Mal

In my home we were never allowed to use any term to describe another race that was not an appropriate term Italians were just that as were Spanish or any other people. No nicknames good or bad were allowed. We did call people colored at that time as an acceptable term. Because my family were all so careful so speak properly and correctly of all other peoples and religions I assumed acceptance until I brought home a little girl to play with who was colored. My mom was very polite but after my friend left I was told not ever to bring "the colored children" home. I got no explaination. Of course I understood. I saw and heard all that went on at school and so I learned . When I was first in a large High School in Sacramento Valley in 1940 I met many Japanese boys and girls. They were a large percentage of our population. I was at noon dance and a nice young boy ask me to dance and I did, but when I told my mom about it she became very stern and said I must not become friendly with the Japanese children as it was not fair to them or myself. What? What did that mean. I later realized she meant no one would accept a friendship between the races and the families of both of us would not accept the other. I did not know if this was true. I did know I obeyed. I always obeyed however by High School i was beginning to question what I had been scripted to accept all my life that if Mother says it is so, it is so. We, my husband and I were at Maxwell Field in Alabame in 1945 and I lived in town in a very elegant boarding house. This was the first time I saw signs of discrimination Written Large and hung over doorways and waterfountains and in cafes etc saying No Colored Allowed or at certain places Theaters and etc, Colored Entrance. On the busses I had to ride to the field every day the white people got on at the front door and the Black people got on at the back door and never the twain shall meet. But in the boarding house where the cook was Black, she and the owner who was white, had this strange relationship that seemed almost like they were sisters or something. Certainly they were most friendly joking and teasing each other as they spent the day taking care of the guests in the house. Yet the woman who cooked never came in the front door. Nor did she eat with us or even sit down to a cup of coffee with the owner. I was very confused about this for awhile. I was 18 and tried to talk to my husband about it and he said to"Leave it alone. It is not your business" I was really shocked as I realized that what I saw in the south done openly was what we did secretly and and in an unspoken code in California. It made me depressed. Faith

BobC: May I please ask why you found our response to your post about anti-Semitism "astonishing?" What other type of response did you think you might receive? In line with that, perhaps a relevant question might be: "Do you see our Senior Net community as a cross-section of the older people in this nation, or not?"

Robby

Faith: The experiences you relate emphasize strongly the difference between behavior and speech when referring to minorities. Brings back the old saw: "What you do speaks so loud I can't hear what you say."

Robby

I was born in 1920 and raised in northern New York State, on the Canadian border, one of 14 children, a close knit family of 7 boys and 7 girls with French Canadian parents. Five of the boys served in the armed services during WW2. There was no discrimination nor intolerance in my neighborhood while I was a youth, and my parents, who could barely speak English, never spoke negatively about other ethnic or racial groups. I was friendly with the local Rabbi's children, and the chidren of members of his congregation, and was often welcomed into their homes during the depression, and shared their kosher food and stories with them, even though they knew I was a Christian. One of my best friends was Jake Miller, son of a local junk dealer, who sold used furniture to the depression era families. Jake and I both enlisted after Pearl Harbor and took basic training together. Jake was killed in WW2. However, during basic training, we realized that there was much racial discrimination and intolerance prevalent throughout other areas of the country, as some of our fellow recruits demonstrated this. Being of french descent, I was labelled as "a frog", Jake was jewish, so he was "a kike ". An Italian was "a wop", a German was "a kraut", a mexican was 'a spick', and there were other labels for other races and nationalities. WW2 became the great melting pot, and after fighting through Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany and Austria against a common enemy, protecting each other's backs, we realized that the holocaust was caused by us all. Never again would we be intolerant of others because of race, color or creed.

I grew up in a tiny central Texas town that bordered first Camp Hood, a new Army base in the late 30's, maybe early 40's(?), that grew into Fort Hood, the largest military installation in the world---geographically (about the size of a large county) and qualified (off and on) by size of military divisions and numbers of soldiers. 2nd Armored Div. has anchored the base for a long time and at it's peak (I think) had two armored divisions, one infantry and (if I have this right) Gray Airforce base slapped into place during WWII right up against Fort Hood. The Airforce base moved somewhere else in the 1960's(?). Oh, and something about highest number of 3,4 and 5 star generals stationed in the same place.

I grew up in the early 50's hearing window-rattling "booms" of practice maneuvers as a background noise to everyday living. On weekends, the numbers of soldiers who came off base looking for a place to purchase beer was maybe 5 or 6 times the total population of the tiny town. The dangers of these cruising soldiers, whether real or just magnified by my parents, shaped everything in my youth. What I could and couldn't wear "out in public," etc. We lived about 6 blocks from one base entrance, so there was a constant stream of soldier-packed cars filing past our corner. I learned not to make eye contact with a car filled with men yelling out offers, catcalls, come-ons---eye contact made the noise worse. I don't remember being frightened by all this, or irritated. It was just an everyday fact of living there. My parents' constant worries were exasperating, I remember that.

That's the connection to the racial slurs I heard from my father. How he referred to those soldiers.

Also, a very vivid memory of telling my mother that I walked home from elementary school with a certain classmate that lived a block away from us. She explained that that "little Mexican boy was not our kind." And I was never to walk with him again. This was from the most generous hearted woman I've ever known.

As an adult, I awoke to these pieces of ignorance and had many, many conversations with my parents---my mother learning and changing with me. About 15 years ago when my grandmother was in her early 70's, a black soldier from Fort Hood broke into her house and raped her. That was such a horrible time but I was also aware that it ignited some fading prejudices in my family. For a long time after that, I purposefully added "Black" to descriptions of close friends or colleagues of mine that I told stories of during visits to Mother or Grandmother. (Normally, there would be no reason to tell their race.) I kept wishing I could take away that unnecessarily added pain.

Patrick: How powerful was your phrase near the end:--"The holocaust was caused by us all." Reminds us of Pogo:--"We have met the enemy and he is us."

Any reactions here to Patrick's comment?

Robby

Betty: What a horrible experience for your grandmother and for the whole family !! Those memories live forever.

The phrase, "our kind," used by your mother is a phrase I have often heard throughout the years. It is one of those nebulous phrases -- hard to define -- and often people don't want to define it when pressed. And yet you described your mother as most "generous hearted." As we examine ourselves, how do we explain this? How can we of that period define our generation as a "great" one and simultaneously say we partook in such actions and words?

Robby

I agree with Patrick that we are all responsible for the Holocaust. To turn one's back on such horrible mass slaughter is to condone it.

It's not as if Americans did not know. I was just a kid when I read a piece in Life Magazine about a Nazi general's wife, I think it was, who had lampshades made of human skin, the skin of some of the victims of this massacre. It horrified me so much that I never forgot it.

Mal

To answer your question, Robby, "How can we define ourselves as great if...."

I'd say (as I've said before but maybe I can do a better job of word choice) it feels like an artificial effort to label a behavior or a group--even as we struggle to draw lines between those who are in and those who are out. Several have written that their older brothers served in the military during WWII but that they were too young to be "in the generation." We're working too hard to squeeze people in or draw the line that keeps them out. For purposes of the discussion of a particular book---this one---accepting an author's premise seems reasonable. Yet, as Robby finds in his question, we keep running into qualifiers and disqualifiers.

Maybe the word greatest is limiting. As in---doesn't capture enough of what that era was about. Or maybe it's the era that produced greatness and other things, as other eras have.

I haven't read far into Brokaw's The Greatest Generation, so don't know the answer to this question. When he wrote the book, did he take into consideration all the human foibles and societal fallacies of this generation that we have mentioned here, or was he so carried away by the emotion that the 40th anniversary of D Day brought that he ignored or glossed over them?

Mal

Anything that is "different" is threatning. I guess it could be a trait in human nature that was used for survival. We are said to still retain our old crocodile brains after all. I can see the band of cave men now getting their stones ready to throw because a different band is coming into their territory. Hid your money and your daughters and go out there and get rid of the threat...Human race should be really tired of that by now. But it exists in us all. I too, Betty, remember the warnings against the CCC boys even before we had soldiers. Tahoe had a lot of Forest to clean up and the CCC boys were to do it. The mothers of the town shielded all children from these strangers. I dont know how angry I can be about that. I am struggling with a dicotomy in my thinking right this minute. Faith

There is a story from WWII that still gives me chills.

Nice chills.

I am going to post it here from my memory, and ask any of you who know where I have errors to correct them for me. Especially regarding numbers.

In Israel today, there are trees planted to remember. These trees have a plaque beneath them, sometimes with a single name, sometimes with several names or the name of an organization or community. These trees are in memory of those who tried to help the Jews during the period of the Holocaust.

Someone visiting there asked once: "Why is there no tree for the Danes?" The response was: "We could not plant enough trees for the Danes!"

In occupied Denmark, when the populace heard the Germans were going to round up and deport some of their citizens, namely those of the Jewish faith, they very quietly refused to allow it to happen.

Now, there were about 5,000 Jews in Denmark. About 400 refused to be helped, and were deported. The rest were whisked over the sea to Sweden in small boats. Sweden was neutral. Sweden took them in. They went home at the end of the war to find that their neighbors had looked after their properties and belongings for them. All of this was done secretly, at night, and in a very few days.

The attitude of the Danes was that NO ONE could do this terrible thing to DANISH CITIZENS! Now I ask you: WHY did not Everyone look at it in this light? Why were the Danes without prejudice? What do they HAVE there that we can study and copy?

I had the great privilege back in the late sixties to make a friend of a Danish bride of one of my husband's associates. Once we were invited to their home to celebrate the christening of their first born son, who was named Dane. Ruth's mother came over from Denmark for the event. A very tall, straight-backed, stern looking woman with her hair in a grey bun, she reminded me so much of that famous painting American Gothic. Several weeks after she had gone back across the seas, Ruth and I were talking one day and I asked her about what it was that made the Danes save their Jews. And she told me, in hushed tones, the following story:

She was a small child in grade school. There was a strict curfew and you could be shot if you were caught out at night. Once, for 3 nights in a row, her mother had taken the family German Shepherd, with whom she was not particularly close, and left the house all night, coming back at dawn. The whole family was upset, especially her husband, but she insisted she had to sit up with a sick neighbor.

She was not caught. Nothing more was said. After the war, Ruth found it curious several times when young Jewish people came to their door with flowers they said were for her mother. She did not think more than this of it. Then, some years later, the Jews put up a small monument of thanks and had a ceremony to dedicate it. Their family was invited to the dedication. Ruth's mother's name is on that memorial for all time.

whoopee my book arived,have been out all afternoon to a 55 alive class,couldnt wait to get on to tell you .Joan you asked me what was the racial situation ,before and After the war,and when did Ifirst hear about the death camps.to the first much the same regarding the jewish people,black people were very few.It was more a fear of black people then for children,they would say the black man will get you,I remember once walking up a street and a black man was stood outside a shop,he said hello to me !and I ran home crying.My parents didnt teach me that or to look down ,or say ~`they are not our class of people.we were so poor,we were at the bottom. It is really food for thought, why this hate for the jews?Is it a religuos thing?stemming from the crucifiction,or is that just an exuse because they think that backs them up,because most of them dont think Or believe in Christ yet they pretend to be avenging him.it seems you just have to part your hair the wrong way ,to start a hate thing going just an exuse to spill out their hate.we have a long way to go !Iwonder if will we ever see it ?`Peace that passes all understanding`.about the death camps,first word came through by war corespondents,and people on leave .we at first thought it was talk .the news reels some how got there and took pictures,which you had to see to believe,haunted faces behind bars, children with their little parcels waiting in line for the trains refugees fleeing .their was no doubt!! the holacaust was a real bloody shadow on all our lives.It must never be allowed to be forgotten,never.Gladys

A book that describes the story of the "holocaust" well is "The Winds Of War," even though the book is a work of fiction it is based on fact. The author--his name escapes me at the moment--describes this horrible nightmare quite vividly and in detail This book chronicals the plight of the members of the Jewish faith so well that the reader thinks "How could this have happened?" He follows this with a sequel "War And Remembrance"

Even though I'm not of the Jewish faith, I'm ashamed that the rest of the world took so long in puting a stop to this holocaust.

Reading Tom Brokaws book reminded me of the early draft. My cousin was in the first conscription. If you recall, it was only to be for a year. Well a couple of short months before he was to receive his discharge from the Air Corps the Jappanese bombed Peal. That put an end to all "outs."

My family called WW 11 "the book-end war" some of us-we were cousins--were in the ETO and others were in the Pacific Theater of Operations. One cousin was in the Navy, so you see, we had all the bases covered. But, thank God, we all survived.

Bill H Herman Wauk,also I think it is called Exadus written by him about the ship that no one would recieve.gladys

My book just came. I find it curious that I've had so much to say before even seeing the book---I, who always need to see a source or the "facts," the "numbers." At least I have an open mind and don't avoid altering perceptions. Maybe Brokaw will win me over. I do have a weakness for human stories.

Betty the stories are intriguing and remind me that everyone has a story. However I only found one story by a female member of the service and you'll get to it. And one story by a black parachutest. These stories of course were the ones written in response to the first book. I found no inspiring comment by Mr. Brokaw about the stories. I enjoyed reading the stories. As an old timer I learned nothing new about my country. I am not now more patriotic nor less than before reading this book. I am no more and no less proud of my generation than I was before but maybe my grandchildren are. I will ask. Faith

MaryPage - what a wonderful story! I've never heard anything about the Danes saving the Jews and you asked a great question - how can we instill these values in our own countrymen? Thanks for telling us about that!

YURI! Hello! WELCOME! It's good to hear from you! Your memories of the American soldiers and those ubiquitous chocolate bars are heartwarming...and the fact that you fell in love with America after meeting our "boys" even more so! There are several stories in Greatest Generation from those who were stationed in Japan...who witnessed first hand the devastation of Hiroshima. And several of our posters were there too and hopefully will share their experience with us...

IMA! Welcome to you too! Will add your name and would like to add your husband's too? Your birth years? I'm sure your husband enjoyed the book..it is a tribute to all who worked together to win that war - to you!

No, of course it's not quibbling, Bob!...I know that what the Jews suffered was not because of race - I suppose it is religious, but must admit, I never really thought about it as such.

Mary Page, I don't know much about Denmark, except that she was already under German rule by the name we got involved...but I'm with you - would like to know more...

Mal we spent considerable time last week talking about the "imperfections" of the "greatest" generation as recognized by Tom B. in the early pages of the Greatest Generation...you surely must remember those discussions! But the point he made was that despite these failings, they are still the greatest - the "greatest" weren't "perfect"...

I'm hearing from many of today's posters so far, that as children you got the message that some people were to be avoided because they were different, but no one seems to have suffered as Bob did. Blacks, according to Tom Brokaw were still living for the most part in the Confederate States. Though free, they hadn't made much progress in the 50 years following the war. We had a fairly large government settlement of colored people in Arlington, kept segregated - until the Pentagon was built on the spot and the people were relocated in South Arlington. Those families still live on Queen and Quinn St. and are very close, keep to themselves, though integrated into Arlington's schools.

I guess my real question now is for the men & women who left their homes and went away to war -

Did the war improve racial relations in any way in your own lives when you returned home?

Patrick (5 brothers in the war!!!) has already given his answer. We would love to hear from more of you!

WW2 became the great melting pot, and after fighting through Africa, Sicily, Italy, France, Germany and Austria against a common enemy, protecting each other's backs, we realized that the holocaust was caused by us all. Never again would we be intolerant of others because of race, color or creed.

The Danish story as I heard it (maybe it has already been posted here and I missed it) was that when the Nazis decreed that all the Jewish people in Denmark were to wear the six pointed star, the very next morning their King rode in a carriage down the main thoroughfare of Copenhagen -- and he was wearing a Jewish star!! Within hours Danes all over the nation were wearing the star. There wasn't a thing the Nazis could do about it nor could they identify who was a Jew.

Robby

It almost sounds like a fairy tale, doesn't it? Wonderful! Heartwarming! I think we needed that after a long day. Have you been listening to the names of children (and their ages) killed in the Holocaust? they've been reading them all day on TV...

Goodnight George...

Your mention of Hiroshima reminded me of an email that I received recently regarding a December 12th gathering of people to pray for world peace. If anyone is interested in more information, here is the URL that was given to me.

http://village.infoweb.ne.jp/~hi2001/index.html

According to an article in today's New York Times, Dr. Douglas C. Wallace at the Emory Univesity School of Medicine in Atlanta along with other geneticists who have been working on the human genome says: "We are all Africans at the Y chromosome level and we are really all brothers. What I have found astounding is that it clearly shows we are all one human family."

Robby

Mitakuye Oyasin is an American Indian expression which means, "We are all related". You can see this just under the logo of The WREX Pages, the publication of WREX Writers Exchange found right here on SeniorNet in the Writing, Language and Word Play folder. This expression is as old as the oldest Native American tribe in this country and probably older.

I do not remember a discussion last week like this one we've had the past few days which mentioned Tom Brokaw's views on discrimination among members of the Greatest Generation.

I am thoroughly confused about which book we are supposed to be reading, or are we supposed to read both at the same time?

Mal

Ihave only the first book should I have them both?gladys

Growing up ah yes leaving home for the first time, not knowing when I would return. Meeting other people from all over the country, training camp, living on a ship for three years, coming face to face with racial discrimination for the first time in my life, calling home and speaking to my Mother and realizing she spoke with a brogue.Being young enough at seventeen to not realize the danger I was in many times, being of a mind that I can handle anything, fortunate to be around men who took the time to bring me along and give me the training I would need in the days to come. I saw a good part of the world, made some friendships that have lasted over the past fifty-seven years, and to have an answer when my grandchildren have asked "what did you do in the war Grandpa?"

As my husband used to be fond of saying, I hate to louse up a good story with the facts.

Robby, the way I heard it, the day after the order for Jews to wear the yellow star, the King of the Danes was seen walking up and down in the palace gardens wearing one.

In any event, it never happened. He never wore one at all. This story spread all over Denmark and, after the war, all over the world. The King, of course, was asked about it. His response was that it was not true in fact, but that in fact he wished he had thought of it; he would have done it!

Here is a site that will tell you something about the Danish rescue of the Jews of Denmark. There are a lot of excellent books on the subject as well.

www.ushmm.org/outreach/denmark.htm

There must have been a movie that perpetuated the image of all the Danish people wearing the star on their sleeve---I have a vague memory of it.

Denmark's swift, bold action is so remarkable, so starkly different from the rest of the world. It gives perspective to what the rest of us could not give.

For children: Number The Stars by Lois Lowry

For the rest of us: In Denmark It Could Not Happen by Hebert Pundik

Darkness Over Denmark by Ellen Levine

My favorite had Night in the title somewhere, I am pretty sure, and was by an Eric or Erik Ro....

Oh, to have a decent memory once again! Help! bobc, do YOU know the title I am looking for? Can you find out?

Betty I remember some movie like that also . I wonder why we keep reading here about discrimination against others based on race, color , an creed. Where is SEX. Dont be aftraid that word will not hurt you anymore. It is the year 2000. We didnt seem to have a discussion based on Tom Brokaws views. Could you tell me the number of the post Joan so I can go back and read the discussion if I am wrong Faith

Good morning, Robby... Tex! (Tex McCreary of "Tex and Jinx"?)

Ah, DUNMORE! Welcome! Just the young fella we've been looking for! Super post! You have provided insight and answers to many of the questions we have been asking!

"...coming face to face with racial discrimination for the first time in my life, calling home and speaking to my Mother and realizing she spoke with a brogue.Being young enough at seventeen to not realize the danger I was in many times, being of a mind that I can handle anything..."

Keep coming back - and sharing your memories through the eyes of that young kid with a mind he can handle anything!

This week we are staying with the early introductory pages in both of Tom Brokaw's books. Page numbers have been listed in the heading...we spent last week on an overview of early years of this generation but Robby felt that since we saw so many new "faces" come over the weekend, we should spend more time on them...before moving into the first of many individual interviews. I believe it was mid-week, Wed. or Thurs. that we discussed yesteday's topic.

Gladys got her book!!! Hurraaaay! You asked about which book we are discussing, Gladys! The first answer that comes to mind, is that we are not really discussing any book, but rather the memories of the men and women of this generation, the book chapters being the catalyst that trigger YOUR memories...

Tom Brokaw wrote The Greatest Generation Speaks to pay tribute to the men and women who came of age during the Depression and World War II. Generation Speaks is a collection of letters written in response to the first book.

Whether you have one book or both, it is your own memories that we welcome here! We will begin Monday with Tom Broderick's account in Greatest Generation, and several related responses from Generation Speaks. It is our hope that these accounts will spark you into sharing memories, whether you have the book(s) or not. The books will provide structure for the discussion. I hope that answers your question? You don't need two books - though many people have them!

Today we are looking to learn more about the Depression years and the effect of the deprivation and sacrifice during those formative years on this great generation of men and women.

May I answer a couple of questions that have been presented here regarding our procedures here in Greatest Generation.

1 - While everyone of us (being the human beings that we are) stray from time to time in our comments, it is important that we keep in mind that the central theme is Brokaw's book.
2 - There is nothing wrong with sharing our personal memories (in fact, that is good - it enriches the forum) so long as what we are sharing relates to something in the book.
3- The main book of the two is Brokaw's original book. If you do have the second book which is composed of letters written to him, do not worry about it. You are right with us.
4 - We have been talking about discrimination and that is in order as that was a trait of those times and Brokaw mentioned it (page 6). While a topic like this is relevant and important, may I suggest, however, that we not "beat it to death" as we need to move on in the book.
5 - We have been talking about other items that Brokaw brought up, eg homeless and unemployed men (page 6) and shared our thoughts about that.
6 - There are still other items he brought up that we haven't yet touched, eg the change of America from agrarian to urban (page 4).

This Discussion Group is of necessity a bit more structured than many other forums would be because we are following an author's thoughts. Again - personal memories are encouraged but always, if you would please, sticking to the sub-topics mentioned in the book. Joan is asking above if there are any more memories of deprivation and sacrifice during the years of the Great Depression that "strengthened" the folks of that era and perhaps helped them to get through the war years.

If not, then we are ready to move on to her next question: Your memories of the New Deal and your family's economic picture just before the war.

Robby

Edit: Sorry, Robby, I just saw your post. I'm going to post this, anyway, I think.

I'd like to mention some experiences I had growing up that are only partially about the Depression. There was a large Jewish congregation on the side of town where I grew up as a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant. Many of my playmates in school were Jewish. I remember that one of my friends invited me to lunch once in a while. This was a treat, since I took my lunch to school every day in a lunch box. One time when I was at her house for lunch, we had squab, which I'd never had before. I thought it was wonderful.

I was raised in the Universalist-Unitarian church, and at least once a year Rabbi Jacobson from Temple Emmanuel preached in my church. There was plenty of prejudice in the congregation about the Jewish religion, but there did come more understanding because the rabbi preached in our church, especially for us kids.

Later, when I was in college, I was a bridesmaid in the wedding of a very good friend of mine. She was Jewish, and the wedding was in a Jewish Temple. The symbolism in that wedding was beautiful. It was a lovely wedding, and I was the only gentile member of the wedding party. I played the piano and sang at the reception and had a wonderful time.

I stayed in Bernice's house while I was there in Pennsylvania. That was my first introduction to lox, bagels and cream cheese which I'd never had before. I did not like the lox and still do not like smoked salmon or lox. Bernice's parents were very good to me and bought me a plane ticket home,since they didn't want me to spend the hours on the train to Massachusetts and change stations in New York City. I wanted Bernice to be a bridesmaid in my wedding, but she was pregnant with her first child by then and could not. She is a very good friend to this day.

Mal

Mal: Your post only goes to remind us that when we get to know someone personally, the picture changes.

Robby

Hi Joan and thanks for the welcome but come to think of it the Joan of the many hosts of many topics lived in Alabama and had a different last name. Are you the same Joan and if so remarried? Anyway, back further to my story.

Our family befriended a Capt. Barron who was a music teacher in Ohio before he went into the military. He was a very good person and played piano when he came to our house. We offered what little we had and he enjoyed everything. For one Christmas, he brought a huge Sears Roebuck catalog and asked us to chooose something for my brother and I. I couldn't believe the things there were. One night early in the morning while we were sleep, he came on a jeep and told us he was returning to the U.S. He must have travelled two hours by jeep from Tokyo to say farewell to us. I still remember a huge can of Almond Roca he gave our mother, a colorful bowtie for my father and chocolates of Baby Ruth, Hersheys, Butterfinger and more for my brother and I. I guess in those days orders came like a lightening. I believe my father corresponded with him for a few years but lost track of him. In those days, we were starving especially for sugar so all my memories of those days are of food. Yuri

Robby, the important thing I learned as a child was that the kids I knew in school were people just like me, no matter what their religion or color was.

Mal

Yuri:

Thank you for sharing with us. How do you reconcile in your mind the differences between the Americans who were so nice to you and the Americans who fought your people?

Robby

Has anyone here ever hiked the Appalachian Trail? Are you aware that it was started by the Civilian Conservation Corps which was mentioned earlier? Brokaw in his book on Page 6 says: "Franklin Roosevelt took the oath of office as President of the United States, promising a New Deal for the beleagured American people, declaring to a nation with more than 15 million people out of work, 'The only thing we have to fear is fear itself.'"

The CCC was part of the New Deal which has since been described as a great social experiment. Has it occurred to any hikers here that as you walk the 2,000 or less miles from Maine to Georgia, that this marvelous trail is the result of a terrible Great Depression?

I was only 13 years old at the time (1933) but I knew about it because it was discussed in the Boy Scouting program where I was active. As Scouts we were interested in nature and the outdoors in any form.

You "older" folks in the list above -- do any of you have any memories about the New Deal -- CCC or otherwise?

Robby

Joan Pearson: As an old retired court reporter, I had to take exception to your reference to Jews as a "race". Race means the color of one's skin. Judaeism is the holding of specific religious beliefs. I don't consider that quibbling, but an important distinction.

robert b. iadeluca: You ask why I found the group's response "astonishing." Answer: I really didn't think there would be that much interest in my post.

You also ask whether I "see our Seniornet community as a cross-section of the older people in this nation, or not?"

Answer: There is no way I would be able to determine that. I feel, however, that this is a rather special group of people who show a tremendous interest in not only expressing honestly and openly their own feelings about these very important subjects, but are also willing and eager to learn about the points of view of others who may appear to be different from themselves, but in actuality these are distinctions without a difference. We ARE all related!

BobC

BobC:

I would agree 100% with your description of the Senior Net. We are, indeed, a "special group of people who share our feelings about important subjects but who are also willing to learn about the views of others." I am pleased that you chose to share and we are looking forward to your additional comments about anything related to the "Greatest Generation."

Robby

Dear Bob,

It is so easy to be misunderstood in posts...most of the time I let the unimportant things go by, but this is not one of them...Please let me explain my use of the word "quibble", (which I thought was the word you had used) when you in fact said ...

"I would like to respond directly to Joan Pearson, who asked about being "--taunted for your race." I don't wish to nitpick, but...

I agree with you, which I tried to say in my very next post

"No, of course it's not quibbling, Bob!...I know that what the Jews suffered was not because of race,"

I guess you misunderstood what I was trying to say...to assure you that I did not think you were nitpicking OR quibbling at all - you are right - that it is an important distinction! I'm sorry that it didn't come across that way.

Think I'll crawl back out to the garden and the worms!
Later!

Joan

BobC:

I have been in the field of communication, in one form or another, most of my life. It is so difficult because it has two end points -- the transmitter who is trying to get a message across and the receiver who is trying to understand what is being transmitted. Face to face communication by two people who know each other intimately is sometimes difficult enough -- then we have two people face to face who do not really know each other -- then we have two people on the phone who are not face to face and do not see the expressions of the other -- then we have two people who are communicating by the printed word and do not hear the tonal inflections -- then we have two people who probably come from two different backgrounds and use certain words in two different ways -- and then, OH MY GOSH!! - it's a wonder that any one of us in this world can understand anyone else at any time!!!

You said it best: "We in Senior Net are a special group of people who are willing to learn about the views of others." Hurrah for open hearts and open minds!!

Robby

Someone should have stated in the heading that this is not a discussion of the book but a tribute to Tom Brokaw. I've never seen such a concentrated effort to get rid of posters who have anything to say that is not an echo of Brokaw. No other B&L discussion I've participated in has worked so hard to shoo away independent thought.

Last weekend 13 people were recruited to join in the "discussion." Obviously for the purpose of shifting the discussion. That worked for a few days as so many of us were in shock that the rich discussion had almost been shut down. I received 11 emails of people asking, "What happened?" (I wish I could have seen the promotion email---"We're struggling. Come help. We've only had 700 posts so far.")

Today, Robby lists rules for discussion and says we cannot stray from the topic. I'll bet a few authors of the 906 posts to date are hurt to learn that there is something wrong with their comments---that they have been off the topic. If there were new rules for this book "discussion," why weren't they posted before we started?

In case we still don't get the message, people who are giving "correct" answers to the listed questions are being celebrated. People who are politely and in good faith offering other thoughts are being ignored. Never mind that so many comments have supported the existence of racial discrimination after the war, Joan stays with her premise that the greatest generation must have conquered the bulk of discrimination. Let me guess. Brokaw must think that.

Does someone at SeniorNet feel we can't risk an authentic discussion because we might lose good press if our questions for Brokaw are too "out there"? That, too, would have been good to know beforehand. Or, maybe those questions have already been written, as so little trust has been shown in our ability to be professional, literate, even political on behalf of Books & Literature.

So much for open hearts and open minds.

Betty:

This where I wish that a calm face-to-face discussion was available. Betty, please believe me when I say that no one is "making a concentrated effort to get rid" of anyone. Independent thought is encouraged. Speaking solely for myself, however, I also encourage that we address issues not personalities.

If 13 people were "recruited" to "shift the discussion," this is all new to me and I do believe I would have known it. We do encourage people to enter this discussion but not, as you suggest, with a planned agenda. As for having "only 700 posts so far" - I consider that excellent. Many other forums have far less. If we are "struggling," that is also new to me.

I did not say we "cannot" stray from the topic. Please re-read my comments. I urged that we remain with the topics but at the same time realizing that, as human beings, we may find ourselves occasionally straying.

If any of the authors of the previous comments are, as you say, "hurt" then I urge them to e-mail me with their thoughts and I promise to answer them. I say e-mail because the issue in this public forum is comments about that particular generation and not individual differences.

As for "correct" answers, may I suggest that this does not exist.

As for "being ignored," if you feel I have been doing that, please e-mail me. Please realize, however, that if I do not mention everybody's posting every time, it does not mean I am ignoring them. I "lead" this discussion in what I consider a courteous and considerate manner.

I get the feeling (I can be wrong) that the topic of discrimination is one of the sore points. You are right that many comments supported the fact that there was much discrimination practiced by that generation. And no one denied it. My suggested guidelines above merely asked that we continue to move on to further sub-topics, not because the current sub-topics are not important or acknowledged, but in the interest of giving other sub-topics an opportunity for discussion.

WHAT CAN I SAY, FOLKS? I personally believe that 99.9% of the SN people are good-hearted generous open-minded people. But we have a book to discuss and I, for one, suggest that we acknowledge that discrimination did exist, that we posted many comments about it, and that now we move on.

Were there any thoughts about the NEW DEAL? the C.C.C.? the APPALACHIAN TRAIL? the ECONOMIC CONDITIONS OF THE FAMILIES BEFORE THE WAR? All these were mentioned on page 4 & 5 in Brokaw's book.

I am the one who wrote of the CCC in the first place as I also brought up : discrimination against women continued after the war as before and during the war. I brought up Gansters of the Prohibition days, I brought up the War Profiteering , I brought up the Black Market racket. These things definitly effected my life/ As far as Mr Brokaws book is concered it is a way to read individual stories that are fascinating as are the stories here.But I only wonder if I am the only person in Senior Citizen Catagory now who lived with the effects of prohibition.Such as a father whos alcoholism was out of hand. Or the way the people hoarded. My family did not have enough money in 1940 to hoard barrels of sugar but a neighbor did and sold it black market for two years out of a basement. My guess is that was going on from the middle of the 30s when it was first apparent we were going to war. My guess is that the children who knew it are now posting and because America and it s greatest boosters just dont want any distraction from the main event. I dug up out of my library the best history I could find of those years and will be reading them now William Manchesters The Glory and The Dream. Two Volumns and it took me till 2 am to find them in my storage trunck. they had spiders. I had remembered them but in a discussion with my friends about this discussion I realized how long it had been since I actually read a history of America. When I was a child I thought I could save the world if I wore a button from the NRA and I had an Eagle Poster in my house, one of my brothers lifted it somewhere. We were not pulling out of the depression in 1939 in my house . We had to wait till about the end of 1940 when my dads business finally began to succeed in spite of his problem, and he stared sending more money home. When I visited him in Oakland he had a whole basement stacked with stuff to eat in cans and barrels. During the war contractors wanting in on his racket gave him gas, tires, shoes, sugar, and what everelse he wanted like booze. We kid s did not get a share of that directly . Still he was sending my mom more . The depression is all I knew so I really didn't think of it in the time we lived it as different than other times. I thought of it as some people always have a lot more affluance than others, and I was one of the others. The effect was that when I became affluant in later years I felt guilty. Faith

Faith: Thank you for reminding us of those significant events which took place before 1941. Prohibition affected you because your "father's alcoholism was out of hand." While it did not affect my family, I doubt seriously that you are the only person in SN who has personal memories regarding prohibition. Maybe there are some here who might even admit to their families doing "rum running" - dark nights without lights on the boats and all that dramatic stuff!!

You talk about NRA buttons. Yes, I wore one, too, and there were NRA signs in all the store windows. Of course at that age I wasn't political but I wanted to be "American."

That is a most powerful statement you made: "The Depression is all I knew." If all our friends are also struggling, we think that is the "world."

Anyone here with memories of Black Markets or hoarding before 1941?

Robby

Hello, all. There have been many careful and reflective posts in this discussion and I commend the discussion leaders and participants for the thought, work and goodwill that you are contributing to this important discussion.

I'd like to clarify that last week "SeniorNet" sent our first email to ALL participants on our website to promote various activities on our site. There was no effort to change the focus of this or any other discussion. The email was, in fact composed about three or four weeks ago, though it was mailed only last Friday. The email inviting participants to this discussion was a general invitation for those who lived through this period to share their, or their families, stories in relation to the Brokaw books.

I have followed all of the messages here and have seen no evidence of anyone, particularly on the part of the discussion leaders, trying to sway the perspectives of participants in one way or another. The discussion, as was clearly stated from the beginning, is a "structured" discussion as are many of our Books discussions. There are weekly and daily questions posted and the discussion will roughly follow the chronology of the Brokaw books. There has been a lot of leeway given for development of topics that may have been tangential to the initial questions and, when a couple of topics seemed to generate more interest, the initial timeframe of the discussion has been lengthened to accommodate further discussion.

This is a discussion based on the Brokaw books and the memories and reflections elicted from reading the books and from reading the posts of the other participants here.

I have watched the lengthy behind-the-scenes planning for this discussion by our two discussion leaders and I assure you that there is no 'hidden' agenda to support particular viewpoints over others. Our discussion leaders, as are all of our volunteers, are volunteering their time and skills here and put in many, many hours before the discussion even started.

As the discussion of the books progresses, if there is a topic that a few or many participants would like to discuss in more depth, we can certainly open a new discussion on that topic. As Robby suggests, you may email him or Joan Pearson or you may email me and I will open a new discussion if there are issues that you would like to explore in more depth after initial discussion of them has been raised in this discussion and we've moved on to another topic. We can have many opportunities to discuss issues that can enrich our understanding. We are not limited to this one discussion. We can have several parallel discussions. (We currently have about 350 on various topics!) The books and the memories of the participants here raise so many varied topics that can be seen from so many perspectives that we could spend several months and not get past the introduction to the first book!

I remember hoarding. One of my best friends (still!) and I went to visit a little classmate when we were about 12 and were shocked to find an otherwise completely empty bedroom upstairs that held a huge stack of foodstuffs taking up most of the middle of the floor and covered with white sheets. She showed it to us very proudly. I'll bet her mother would have had a fit!

Faith's post made me wonder if the man of that family, who was a farm machinery contractor, was partially paid off in this way. I had never thought of that angle before.

One of my failed life's ambitions was to walk the entire Applachian Trail from Georgia to Maine. I decided against it now that I'm retired because it is such a dangerous thing to do now. Several times young people far stronger and abler to defend themselves have been robbed and killed on it. Pity.

I had No Idea this was a program of FDR's.

And I sure remember the Prohibition. More people learned to drink then than ever would have if we had not had it! And nationally syndicated crime really spread because of it. I am not a drinker, nor have I ever partaken of a drug of any kind other than those prescribed by my physicians. But I cannot help but look at the results of Prohibition and wonder if we made a mistake in prohibiting so many of the drugs that once were not illegal at all. Perhaps less people would know about them, there would be less crime since dealing in them would not require secrecy, guns, or smuggling, and using them would be "ho, hum" instead of hip. I don't profess to know the answer, but I do wonder.

MaryPage: The amount of hoarding you indicated there (and probably by many more people in that era) shows how "scared to death" everyone was they were going to starve to death. As a matter of fact, many folks did starve to death. How does this compare with that spirit of "togetherness" that was described earlier when talking about how hardships affect people?

Robby

I do not believe many people hoarded. Everyone I knew or encountered, except for this one instance, seemed to go to great lengths to give up and give out everything they had for the war effort.

Remember metal drives? People gave up their wrought iron fences and gates (my family did not), pots and pans, even wedding rings! Everyone saved every dripping of grease and fat they could. Remember the radio message? "Ladies, get your fat cans down to the ......"

Well, perhaps only a small number of people hoarded. We have no way, of course, of knowing the percentage of the population. Are we speaking here of war time or Depression time?

Robby

Excerpt from last page of the introduction Tom Brokaws The Greatest Generation

“to be sure there are stories that I missed and for that i accept full responsibility. I hope the wit find audiences in family gatherings, schools, community celebrations, barrooms and churches They are too important too instructive and too entertaining to be cloistered forever.

What I and a few others have attempted to do is bring forth those stories that are missed, that he hopes we will bring forward . His book is one where he admits how difficult is was to choose the stories Obviously he followed his own bias toward the heroic.

we are in an open forum. we can bring up disagreeable memories if that is our story and Joan said she wanted personal stories here

. We have been writting them. Some personal stories are disagreeable, hurtful, hard to remember. Like hunger. Who wants really to remember that millions of the firs boys that joined the Army did it for the food, just like they did for the CCC not because they were the Greatest but they definitly were hungry. I will not be silenced about the things I remember about the prewar years and the aftermath . It is my story,.

This is also my story: Faith Pyle Rogers My second husband I am Widow of Major DA Rogers, Army Air Corp. also the USAF retired after 25 years service, died of acute alcohol, 1971 His story was fantastic He was one of the old fying master sargents of Flying Tigars, then ferried B29 Bombers over to England before we were in the war. Got his commission and flew two 50 mission trips, with a rest inbetween ETO and PTO Told me oftern how they carried booze out to the plane on the line when they landed and everyone had a tin cup ful on the way back to debrief then they could go safely get drunk enough to forget and do it again when he whistle blew.When he was asked to retire or go into treatment he chose retirement. I then met and married without a clue he was a walking dead man already. I know the stories. They are heroic but they are not all pretty. Faith

Robby i am sticking to the discussion . There was hoarding in 1939 at least on the west coast by those who could afford it. Like some of my fathers friends. It was wide spread. So was the black market. You See men who grew up in the rackets knew stuff believe me and they got ready way before Pearl.. Faith

Re the economic situation,like Faith said it didnt change for us until the war was half way through.I mentioned my mother paying a shilling a week until I was about fourteen or fifteen.As was to be expected no one hoarded,you struggled to live.when the war was on we were rationed I mean RATIONED.when the war was over ,the kids had never seen banana they didnt know how to open them ,hence came the expression unzip a banana.We were better off when the war progresed,every one had some thing to do.we didnt have prohibition,but not many could aford it any way.,It was a turn around ,we had the money ,but couldnt buy much! gladys

Gladys my second husband Buck Rogers was in England before America was in the war and he said when the pilots that ferried the bombers over from Canada got leave they always took candy, canned meat, what booze they could find, and if they had been able to bring stockins (Those old bright colored Rayon ones) they would take them into the town by the landing strip and tradefor dinner, for companions and sex i guess if the truth be known. He said he was used to deprivation as a boy in the depression in the midwest but this lack of goods in England amazed him in 1940 as america never experienced those kinds of shortages. Money was short, but not stuff. Faith

oh Yes Faith ,that happened I had a SIL who lived over here in NM

she used to send me The first nylons that were made. and clothes ,hand me downs of course. when we were married with four children ,relatives wouldnt say where did you buy that ?they would say who gave you that!! Luckily I was good at fixing things ,I made every thing fit .

gladys

Gladys in 1939 I was just starting Highschool. I had worked all summer as a mothers helper and I had ten dollers for school clothes. Well in England that would have ben almost 60. 00 at the exchange of 5.65 or so anyway it was a lot of money so I bought 1sets of underwear, 1 pair of leather shoes, 1 pair of canvass shoes, 1 blue skirt pleated, 1 blue wool cardigan, 2 white shirts, and I was broke. So my mom made me 1 more skirt and I went to school in those same clothes all that fall and then the next spring in 1940 we were moved and doing much better as America was pulling out of the depression and heading into the war so the pace was picking up. I by the way had those same shoes all through the war with maybe 1 other pair down the line. Funny, I felt lucky and the only thing I wanted money for really was books so I lived in the library. Faith

Some things I am passionate about are visual art and the performing arts. At dinner tonight, my daughter, her friend and I talked about computers and art, among other things like the Hittites and this discussion. During this conversation I remembered the art and performances done by people who worked under the Works Project Administration, the WPA.

Franklin Delano Roosevelt delegated government money "to promote American art and culture". People working for the WPA were not just digging ditches and laying sewers and doing construction, they were creating art.

Among them was Ben Shahn, whose poignant paintings of American society are still pertinent today. A well-known muralist whose work was seen in post offices and other public buildings was Thomas Hart Benton. I know you'd recognize his powerful art that reflects the poor and the hard-working Americans of the 30's.

I was interested to see that 41% of the WPA artists who painted and sculpted and created murals, did silk screening and stage sets for dance and theatrical performances were women.

This is an aside. When I am asked the question on a questionnaire which says "Race?" I always say "Human".

After all, recent research has proved that the basis for all human life begins with stem cells, which can become all human cells. This means that all of us humans on Earth share many of the same cells and genes.

Mal

YURI...sorry to be so late, both in getting here today and in saying "hello" to you after much too long a time. You've been missed. The JOAN you were asking about is JOAN GRIMES, and she is still very active here in SN, altho maybe not in this discussion. Do come back more often!

Katie

Faith: No one is trying to "silence" you. Sorry you feel that way. As you say, there were many men who joined the military just so they could get something to eat. I remember this myself. And your memories prior to the war are of "wide-spread" hoarding and Black Marketing. In times of hardship different people act in different ways. Interesting that your husband, even though he remembered deprivation during the Great Depression, was amazed that the English were even worse off. The Depression, after all, was world-wide. Even in Germany where the poverty of the people helped to bring Hitler to power.

Gladys: Your memories help us in the United States to realize that no matter how bad life was here, it was obviously much worse in the U.K. Thank you for keeping us knowledgeable about those things and helping us to have a feeling of gratitude.

Nowadays there are constant arguments in Congress as to whether the government should be alloting funds for the arts and yet Mal reminds us that during the Depression, President Roosevelt helped people find work through government funding for not only "digging ditches" but in the areas of art and culture.

Robby

I remember very little about the depression having been born in 1928; however, as I've said before I was taken from my parents' home when I was a year old as I was dying from the whooping cough (or so I'm told). The relatives who "saved" me - a cousin and an aunt - were at the time boarding college students and I've never forgotten one of them was a Japanese student who was so kind to me and seemed to pay particular attention to one so young. For many years I remembered his name but it has gone the way of so many other details - he gave me a small lacquered red chest with tiny drawers in it and black writing on the sides which I kept for years and years, and he seemed to derive pleasure from teaching me a few rudimentary skills on the piano. How I wondered about him and what his role was in WWII.

The cousin and aunt I lived with started boarding "old-age pensioners" about the same time, the aunt being a widowed lady. Not many people had pensions and I remember they kept school teachers for the most part. That developed gradually into a version of what we know today as a "nursing home." The government granted extra rations during the war for these elderly and sick people so we never suffered from lack of sugar, coffee, flour or other staples.

My childhood was not a happy one, but I certainly never went hungry. I lived in this huge old red brick house of my relatives that had great charm - a wrap-a-round concrete porch that I played on, rode a tricycle on and skated on; the house still stands today. It was and is in the middle of fraternity houses in a small college town.

Over the years, we have come across many projects that the WPA or CCC constructed; one of the loveliest being a huge swimming pool in a resort by the name of Oglebay Park in West Virginia. An absolute stunning pool with stone walls around it, steps on all sides - built to last and built elegantly. The Park is privately owned, I believe, and has a lovely hotel and lodge with wooded trails around and a small museum of the lovely glassware made in that state. We only spent 3 days there, but if any one around wants to meet me there for a weekend - just let me know. We could chat forever, I think, about old and modern times and the different paths we have all taken!

An aside: I've searched the Internet for the name of the person (Congressman? White House staff?) who proposed the G.I.Bill at the end of WWII, as one poster asked about it and wanted to say thanks! No luck. Does anyone else have any information?

And, I think it was Patrick (??) who was telling us about the landing boats and the lack of testing and planning which consequently caused the death of some of the fellows. We might mention in Chapter Two the same lack of skill in testing those gliders! Heavens, one wonders who was in charge of the construction and planning and also one hopes that if the occasion arises again, we do a bit better! I know I'm ahead here a little, but it was something to think about.

Many many memories, Ella. Thank you. You have strengthened even further the previous remarks about the wonderful work that was done by Roosevelt's New Deal - specifically WPA and CCC. How ironic that work which was to be of a temporary nature turned out to have results that have lasted for years. These people had talents in all fields -- architectural, construction, visual and performing arts. Yet if it hadn't been for the far-seeing visions of someone who I consider one of the greatest Presidents we have ever had, they would have been either on the street corners selling apples or dying in some alley somewhere with their families going hungry.

The CCC as created by FDR paid the youth $30 a week. They received food and a roof over their head and were required to send back $25 to their families so they could live. Isn't that visionary? A leader of that caliber was sent to us at just the right time.

Robby

The aunt and uncle who took me after I had polio hated FDR. I never heard a good word about him and what his administration did. The CCC and WPA were dirty words in that house. Children pick up on those things, and because of what I heard I was afraid of men I saw working in the street or anywhere for the WPA.

Finally, I asked my aunt why those men were so bad. She turned up her nose and said, "They're poor!"

It wasn't until a day or so later that I remembered I had come from a mother who was very poor, indeed. In the eyes of my aunt, she was no good, either. It was a big dilemma for me because I knew my mother was good, whether she was poor or not.

Just for the record, my aunt was a bookkeeper-clerk in a jewelry store. My uncle was an electrician who lost his business during the Depression and had a job installing and repairing oil burners in Boston.

Mal

I would like to say a few words about the regular "Fireside Chats" given by President Roosevelt shortly after he was inaugurated. Brokaw on Page 5 stated that "Herbert Hoover, as president, seemed to be paralyzed in the face of spreading economic calamity and that he was a distant figure of stern bearing." Roosevelt, although he came from a family of high standing, was exactly the opposite. He knew how to approach the average person. He used down-to-earth non-bureaucratic language.

In 1933, the year he became president and four years after the stock market crash, he decided to use a wonderful "new" tool, the radio. I say new because it had only been used by the general public for 15 years or so -- much less than TV has now been on the scene.

Visualize with me, if you will, a family consisting of parents, grandparents, children -- all gathered around that big box. Radio is not as distracting as TV. Everyone can concentrate on the voice emanating from it. Now imagine, also, that the voice coming out of that box is talking directly to you. That calm steady and honest-sounding voice is talking directly to the father who can't find a job -- to the mother who wonders how she is going to feed her children -- to the children who don't understand all of it but feel the confidence coming from that voice.

As far as I am concerned there has never been anything like that since that period. President Roosevelt asked for our confidence and we gave it to him. He told us that the banks would give us our money back if we wanted it, and we believed him. He also asked that we leave the money in the bank and most of us did it. Here we were "sitting next to the fire" with our leader who told us not to be afraid. He promised us that things would get better.

Whether that generation was the "greatest" or not can be discussed for decades. But I, for one, consider Franklin Delano Roosevelt one of the "greatest" presidents we have ever had.

Robby

I agree. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was one of the finest Presidents the United States has ever had.

Mal

I remember listening to the "Fireside Chats" as a child. If I remember right, didn't he start those out with a greeting of "my friends" (very drawn out words with a New England accent)?

My dad disappeared in 1933. There was a mortgage on our home through Gem City Building and Loan Co. My mother was threatened with foreclosure of the loan. Sometime later she was able to have Morris Plan Bank take over that mortgage. In the 1970's, while taking a financial course on banking, I learned that the Morris Plan Bank was a Federal Program developed during the depression recovery. I think that I read then, that Morris Plan Bank was a part of New Deal. So, I did not know until all those years later, about our receiving Federal help.

About the Black Market - At the factory where I worked, there was talk of being able to buy gas ration coupons from some of the fellows. (Naturally I wasn't interested because I had to walk or take a street car to work).) If I remember correctly, it was rationed at 3 gallons per week for pleasure. But if you were a worker, your ration was higher so that one could drive to work if needed.

Meat was rationed - My mother worked at a bakery next door to a meat market. She would at various times, take day-old baked goods over to the butcher and he in exchange would give her bones from which most of the beef had been cut. (But, he always managed to leave some of the meat on for us.) Some vegetables were added and it made good, nourishing soup.

When I was old enough to vote, FDR was the first president that I voted for. I admired him very much and always will, no matter what was brought out about his life, during the later years.

FDR was the exactly right person to come along at that period in American history. I for one was impressed by him as most of the people around me at that time were, There was some discention in the crackerbox crowd down at the grocerystore about Rusvelt as they said. But as the years turned from real desperate times to a sudden looking up most of my uncles and adults around me were ready to vote for him the second time which is the election that stands out in my mind. In response to a post Robby put up where he said he was amazed that Buck was amazed at shortages in England in 1939 when he had been raised in midwest depression, why are you amazed.?? America always had goods in the market place. If you had a dime you could find something to spend it on and usually what ever it was you needed. In 1939 especially we did not have shortages of goods as they did in England or for that matter Canada. The relatives we had in Canada were certainly happy to recieve our packets.

Yes Robbie I often feel as if you would like me to never say one word regarding failures of the good old US of A . For instance you generalized my remarks and rehashed them or should I say reframed them so I sound like a foolish person. As if I only knew Black marketeers and hoarders. My goodness Robbie. Faith

Amen to that, Robby. Doris Kearns Goodwin would probably say FDR was the greatest of any of our presidents. Her extensive study of his life is pretty persuasive.

I believe I was wrong about the source of the 13 newcomers. Marcie tells me there was an abrupt jump in numbers of posters in several SN discussions last Saturday. What I described in my post may have happened in other discussions in the past, but I was mistaken about it happening here.

There is a mammoth sized hotel/resort in Cloudcroft, New Mexico, built by WPA. Very old world Swiss looking. You leave civilization behind at a few hundred feet above sea level, then begin to wind your way up the mountain until, finally, at 8,000 feet(?), there it is. Massive logs, 3 stories high, spectacular views. Very quiet as only the top of a mountain can be. I was there 3 different times. It was my favorite get-away-from-it-all place to go---even though I couldn't afford to go there very much.

Ella...your question got me interested..."An aside: I've searched the Internet for the name of the person (Congressman? White House staff?) who proposed the G.I.Bill at the end of WWII..."

I found a little info, regarding this:

Jeffrey, Harry Palmer (1901-1997) Born in Dayton, Ohio, December 26, 1901. U.S. Representative from Ohio 3rd District, 1943-45. Co-author of GI Bill of Rights. Died in Dayton, Ohio, January 4, 1997.

JEFFREY, Harry Palmer, a Representative from Ohio; born in Dayton, Ohio, December 26, 1901; attended the public schools; was graduated from Ohio State University at Columbus in 1924, and from the College of Law of the same university in 1926; second lieutenant, United States Army Reserve Corps, 1927-1930; was admitted to the bar in 1926 and commenced practice in Columbus, Ohio; moved to Dayton, Ohio, in 1927, and continued the practice of law; special assistant attorney general of Ohio, 1933-1936; elected as a Republican to the Seventy-eighth Congress (January 3, 1943-January 3, 1945);unsuccessful candidate for reelection in 1944 to the Seventy-ninth Congress; resumed the practice of law in Dayton, Ohio; died January 4, 1997.

Also, found the most informative site in my searching. It is History Net and they have a fabulous amount of info on our history during different periods of time. Below, I will paste just a portion of their in depth article on the GI Bill. Will give a "link" afterward, to the complete article.

That is what I love about this discussion...it leads to searching for more and more answers to our history. I apologize for breaking the continuity of this interesting discussion, by posting this here, but did so want to share this with everyone.

The idea of aiding veterans grew partially out of economic concerns. With World War II winding down, many foresaw the day when millions of servicemen and women would begin reentering the job market. Government officials wished to find a way to ensure against anything akin to the 1932 march on Washington, D.C., by 15,000 disgruntled World War I veterans, who were suffering from the ravages of the Great Depression. This "Bonus Army" sought immediate credit for the certificates they had received upon being discharged years earlier. These notes were not scheduled to mature until 1945, but the impoverished men who had risked their lives for their country felt they deserved immediate assistance.

The main inspiration for the GI Bill, however, was a sincere desire to assist returnees. The American Legion, which would become a primary force in guiding the legislation through Congress, declared that "Veterans earned certain rights to which they are entitled. Gratuities do not enter the picture."

In his "fireside chat" to the nation on July 28, 1943, President Franklin D. Roosevelt made his first mention of the veterans' benefits that should follow the war and touched on the more practical aspects of the problem. With the suffering of the Depression vivid in his memory, Roosevelt declared that American veterans "must not be demobilized into an environment of inflation and unemployment, to a place on a bread line or on a corner selling apples." He suggested government-financed education and training as one facet of veterans' benefits that should be implemented.

The president's concern was echoed in the halls of Congress, where Republican Representative Hamilton Fish of New York, a staunch conservative and frequent foe of Roosevelt's, nevertheless agreed that veterans could not "come home and sell apples as they did after the last war, because if that is all they are offered, I believe we would have chaotic and revolutionary conditions in America."

By November 1943, more than a score of Congressmen were sponsoring bills relating to "veterans' rights." The Senate passed its version of the GI Bill in March 1944; the House of Representatives followed suit in May. The compromise bill, ready for the president's signature soon after the June 6 Allied invasion of Normandy, was finally signed into law at the White House on June 22, 1944, with members of Congress and various veterans groups in attendance.

HISTORY NET

Eddie

Eddie:

Thank you for sharing that bit of history. It seems to bring together all the various things we have been discussing about that generation -- the aftermath of World War I, the Great Depression, the marching of the World War I veterans on Washington, the desire of the Federal Government not to have a repeat of that march, the actions of the American Legion,and the signing of the GI Bill in June, 1944.

This leads us to some of Joan's questions in the box above labeled "More." What were your thoughts just prior to World War II. Had you ever heard of Hitler? of Stalin? of Tojo? What did you know about what was going on in those nations? Did you think America was going to be involved in a war? Did you think you were going to be personally involved?

Dig deep into your memories. What was going on in your mind in those pre-war days?

Robby

Not much sleep tonight, left knee, right ankle doing their best to keep me awake, but what else is new. The best diversion, even beyond reading, is the ongoing battle with Sammy, an orange tabby, who has entered his teenage rebellious stage (10 months old). In the first place, who knew he'd grow to be this large. He is a very long, very large cat. With an attitude. Between our territorial battles, we like each other very much.

His latest obsessions the last few days have made me hoarse from yelling (I forget that the blue spray water bottle works fine by itself). Tonight, he kept leaping from the floor to the top of a very tall bookcase where I keep part of a miniature chair collection. I got out the blue bottle, which he doesn't like to see, and started saying, in character, "Angry voice. Do you hear this angry voice?" He doesn't budge the first time or two I squirt him with water, then it gets to him and he vaults down and tears out of the room. I barely have time to put the water bottle down beside my chair and get my book positioned when he begins doing the thing that really drives me crazy (this is new)----he jumps up onto the lamp table, then stands on his hind legs, grabs the top of the lamp shade with his front paws and peers inside at the (warm) light. Yesterday, I held off spraying him to see what he meant to do with the lamp and he just stood there with his eyes closed, sunning his face in the warmth. This was only cute to me for a while (yesterday??) before he pulled the lamp into the floor.

I'm typing this over his sleeping body that is stretched east to west in my lap, front paws hanging over one chair arm, back paws hanging over the other arm. Maybe 30 minutes ago, he jumped up into my lap, stretched out and within seconds was asleep. Before reaching for this keyboard, I was reading and thinking of all his off-limits behavior and wondering if we have that in common.

Although I had heard Hitler on the radio and knew of Stalin, I had never heard of Tojo. You may recall that this was prior to December 7, 1941 and Japan was not that big in the average person's mind. We know now, looking back, that there was a lot of "diplomacy" going on in Washington between Japan and the United States but that was far away from our every day activities trying to make a living.

Robby

Katie - So nice to see your posting and thanks. Indeed she was Joan Grimes. I am sort of goose stepping as when I am sending messages you are just about getting up. It's great that now webmaster is sending you e-mail to let you know what's happening at the seniornet as I wouldn't have logged on. You just have to get kicked once in a while in you know what to get back. One thing though is that here I don't have a fixed rate so they charge me for every minute I'm on. Europe is talking about going to a flat rate but not yet. Y

Robby - It is interesting that you raise your question. There are two people I know personally who have fought their ways through the Pacific islands to Japan. One was father-in-law of my late brother. My brother eloped rather then face the music of his scorn but what happened was that they got along so very well that even after they were divorced, my brother used to visit him and talk about the War, not so much about personal details but more about the tactics both side used to capture whatever they were trying to capture. He was indeed a great man and had a great sense of humor even after what he went through. The other was late Col. Nunn who became a military governor of a northern prefecture after the war. He also fought tooth and nail up the islands but became one of the most respected governor. He loved Asian history and religion so after the war, he taught Asian history at a school in Virginia. I am sure there were SOBs on both sides also but they told me that they had respected the bravery on both side of the frontiers. Regards. Yuri

Hi Eddie so glad to see you this morning in this place. I just left your place. Thanks for thae hx and reminding evryone of some of those bad days when my Uncle was marching on Washington and my Grandad was crying by the radio. I was in his lap, wondering if it would make him better if I sang him a song. funny but I remember so much of my life because of grandparents. Robby we on the west coast were highly paranoid about Japan and I believe it was prewar propaganda that made us so aware and a good thing too that we were. Every one knew the name of the Emporor Hiroshito but we knew no names of the Army or Navy of Japan until after Pearl. I was not in school but all my siblings who were went to school that Monday very aware that the boys(my two brothers were in highschool, ) on their track team and football team were about half of them Japanese boys and it was a hard thing. These were their friends and teammates. They had a hard time reconciling . Many of the Japanese boys an girls did not come to school that day. As I said before we live where over a hugh percentage of our highschool population were Japanese. People we had lived around worked with and for, on the ranches and in the fruit packing and picking industry. These farmers were the backbone of our farming community and it was a really sad day and people were so torn between their feelings. It is painful to remember this part. Betty tell that cat to let you get some sleep. He gets his see. Faith

Please, just once I'd like to write a clear, unambiguous sentence. When I wrote that adding posters may have taken place in other discussions, but not in this one, I wanted to convey that I've never experienced this and would have no idea of any discussion leaders that have done this.

I was reading Frost poetry last night and ran across an unusual poem on discrimination. If I can find it again and can figure out how to format it, I may post it in the Poetry section.

I certainly had heard of the Spanish Civil War and the war between China and Japan. I knew about Hitler and a little about Hirohito. Don't ask me how I knew these things. Overhearing talk and my radio, I suppose, plus the Boston newspaper my uncle brought home every night. There was little or nothing about this kind of thing in my hometown newspaper. I do know there was a great deal of war talk among people in my church, though war was very seldom mentioned in school until after Pearl Harbor.

Mal

Yuri:

Your thoughts are much appreciated. Please continue to share them with us. Previous posters have suggested that we are all related and you, also, are indicating that we are all human beings of various sorts no matter what "side" we are on.

Faith:

You are reminding the rest of us who lived at that time in various places all across this vast nation that the residents of the West Coast not only were subject to pre-war propaganda but that there were mixed feelings due to many of you having Japanese-American friends. As you say, it is "painful" to remember those incidents. In many ways, this is similar to what Yuri is telling us -- that things are different when we know people personally.

Robby

Mal:

I wonder why war was not mentioned in school until after Pearl Harbor. Did the rest of you have a similar experience?

Robby

Gosh, Eddie, good researching! I hope the veteran that posted about the G.I.Bill of Rights is looking in - several of them used the GI Bill to get an education. And I never knew the history behind it - good foresight on the part of Congress wasn't it? How does the G.I.Bill work today? Or does it? Do you have to be in active combat before you get benefits?

Ella:

I am one of those who benefited from the G.I. Bill. I was discharged from the Army April 9, 1946 and enrolled in college that Fall. In the Spring of 1949 I received my B.A. in Psychology. I won't say I wouldn't have been able to go to college without it (I would have found some other way, so help me) but the GI Bill made it much easier for me and millions of other veterans.

Robby

I went to a very progressive school for my first years at Tahoe .It was very small with very few chilsren compared to cities and we had a civics class for all children from first thru 8th grade and we participate at our own level but with the whole class at once. Very 1800 's in a way. We had all the books, magazines and newspapers from the cities. My mother managed a San Frnacisco Chronical every week. Often we all put our pennies in the pot so Big Brother could go get the paper and bring it home Sunday Mornig from the Post Office. It was an mail edition but we had the radio for daily updates. We also had an active political family who were also always talking. and of course Reading. Yes it is hard to remember the pain of those years And the frustration of seeing your country not doing the things your family thought it should be doing . hearing about the first world war and the spanish american civil war in cuba from my veteran uncle , seeing him broke and sick and dying young from being gassed in france was not going to lead our family to be isolationist. We truly felt that FDR was kind of a savior and that without him all the unfavorable aspects of this country would have become more pronounced . Yet did not. Oh after the war I have a lot of opinions about what a terrible mess social relationships were in but .that is another story for another day. Then we can talk as Joan River says. Faith

Faith:

As you say, "after the war" is another topic which we will get to discussing in the future.

Robby

There is so much additional food for discussion here that I hardly know where to begin, so I'll talk about my personal knowledge of prohibition instead. I would like to put a little humor into the discussion, in recalling my little old bootlegging grandma.

There was a tremendous demand for alcoholic products during prohibition, and with times as tough as they were, my grandma gave Al Capone some pretty good competition. We lived in the Bronx suburbs, and when the grape season came along, grandma would have delivered to our house crates of grapes. She and my grandfather had a press, and down the basement they'd go, where they would press, ferment, and eventually pour. They made the most delicious wine one could possibly imagine. She had customers all over NYC, and would deliver the orders traveling on the subway. She was no taller than 4'9", but she would fill these leather carrying bags and off she'd go. The wine was absolutely delicious, and she would give us all occasional tastes. None became addicted, though I can still remember how sweet it was. She also would make cherry brandy, which was given to us when we were ill. It wasn't penicillin, but I can still remember it burning all the way down, destroying germs as it descended into our feverish, pain-racked bodies. One of the first things Pt. Roosevelt did when he came into office was have the Congress abolish prohibition. It didn't put grandma out of business though. Her product continued to be in demand. Grandma is long gone, but the memory lingers on.

bobC----What a wonderful and yes, funny, story of Bootlegging Grandma. I love the picture of her small stature and her tall determination. And the brandy that used to burn all the way down, killing all germs in its path. Wonderful!

Maryal

Bob I really laughed and I know that sweet wine. I think they all used those dark purple concord grapes and oh sweet. Of course my sips were for colds. I never was lucky enough to get the cherry brandy...Grandmas are really great. Thanks for the story. Faith

BOBC...my grandfather made beer during prohibition, which was not a bit unusual, I'm sure. My mom and dad, and I, a babe in arms, often visited my grandparents on Sunday afternoon, but they regularly had to leave sooner than they intended because I was so fussy. More than that, I would cry uncontrollably. It wasn't until I was little older, and had learned to talk, that they found out that my distress was caused by the smell of Grampa's beer-making! I can't say whether it was the hops or what, but something in the beer hurt my nose! It hasn't changed, I might add...I am still upset by offensive odors. The ironic part is that my younger sister has no sense of smell at all, which can be dangerous. I have enough for both of us!

ROBBY...during my fifth year in college, while earning an education degree to help me qualify for employment somewhere that my arts degree didn't, I was chosen by my psych professor to help him give aptitude tests to returning GIs who had signed up for college on the GI Bill. Many of them had no idea what they wanted to do or where their talents lay, so the tests were designed to do just that. I was required to take some of the tests, so I would be familiar with them, and any problems that could arise. I'll have you know that I had a 98 Percentile in Mechanical Aptitude! It was sort of a strange test. There were pictures of objects to be identified, and I could see some that a male might not recognize, or even know about. Like the business end of a drapery rod. Or the location of the wire on an iron. We had some very surprising results when we actually gave the tests to the guys. One was thinking of working in a grocery store, but scored extremely high in artistic aptitude. Another was amazed at how well he scored in mathematics. And, of course, there were others who didn't do well in the field they thought was right for them. I did NO counseling and am very glad that that part was not up to me.

Love...Katie

re before the war,hitler was a worry to us from the moment he started ranting,we knew he was a force to be reckoned with ,hence the talks between him and Chamberlin.we had all been made familiar with the gas masks,and certain places for shelter,in fact they were already building the anderson shelters.they were corragated Iron dome shaped you covered them with Earth,I cried last night when I read in tom Brokaws book,of Chamberlin coming home after meeting with Hitler ,and his joy at saying ,there will be peace in our time.We really didnt acept it the ordinary people.we were prepared mentally,but not weapon wise.Mussoline,was another traiter.He was hung from a lamp post with his girl friend. President Roosevelt,was greatly admired also over there. Gladys

Someone mentioned he CCC. Am I wrong, Robby? I thought the pay was $30 a month, not a week. Anyway, we were in truly dire straits until my older brother joined the CCC, and the money that was sent home was a lifline for us all, literally. I remembered visiting my brother once at his camp, and noting how military it all seemed. That same CCC outfit built one of the most beautiful Arboretums in my home town of Madison, Wisconsin that is still a source of great pleasure to everyone.

My geographical ignorance at the time was appalling! On Sunday, Dec.7 I came running out of my bedroome where I had a cheap little radio, asking "Where's Pear Harbor?"

I think that was when the blatant propaganda took over. I remember seeing a newsreel of a near-riot in California against the Japanese-Americans, and one poor Chinese man standing with a sign hanging around his neck, stating "Me Chinese!"

Lorrie

To FaithP: Those were exactly the grapes she used. When she and my grandfather were finished, their hands were a beautiful shade of reddish purple, but who cared.

Katie Sturtz: The odor of the fermenting grapes never bother us, like the smell of hops did you. I loved it. You could smell it for blocks. Why the house was never raided I'll never know. Perhaps grandma paid the police off with a few bottles of her illicit products.

Bob C

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Mal

Lorrie:Your post about Robert Frost's poem on discrimination triggered this dream in me last night . In the dream I had last night I dreamt that I had died; Saint Peter stood near heaven's door And ushered me inside, And there I was surprised to see Some people I'd known before, Some I'd observed and graded as Not fit for heaven's door. Resentful words rose to my lips, But never were set free For every face displayed surprise-- No one expected me!

BobC: Your humorous, yet serious, comments about prohibition opened up memories that had been locked inside and may have opened up a side of that particular generation which younger people here had not realized even existed. As can be seen by many of the postings here, people of that generation, even before the U.S. entered the war, had already led a rich life - filled with humor and sadness, filled with happinesses and tragedies, touched by adequate income and poverty, but above all able to rise to the occasion and meet head on whatever life was handing them.

Gladys: It is important to remind ourselvwes in the U.S. that when we were just considering the possibility of war, you were already wearing a gas mask.

Lorrie: You are right. The CCC paid $30 A MONTH!! Again, it is important to remind the younger folks here that money had a different value at that time and that, as you say Lorrie, the $25 your family received was a Godsend. In reference to your Arboretum, I wonder how many other people here live near similar projects still existing which were built as a result of the Great Depression.

Robby

Patrick, that is WONDERFUL!

Katie, of the 5 senses, smell is my most powerful as well. I've always been the first in the entire neighborhood to smell a gas leak, forinstance. Or a fire!

Gladys, we can still tell which are the fascists in our midst, because they are still the ones doing all the ranting and raving! Isn't it funny how nothing ever really changes?

I have been busy getting ready for company and have not been here for a while so forgive me for playing catch-up, please.

I don't think anyone has mentioned one of the biggest, most lasting and most beautiful of all the WPA projects. The Blue Ridge Parkway was begun in 1935 to give people who were jobless a source of income. It was through the Works Project Admin. begun by FDR that this truly beautiful highway through Virginia and North Carolina came to be. Interestingly, it was not completed until the mid-80's. One of N.C.'s most well-known people, Hugh Morton, owns a mountain called Grandfather's Mountain and he absolutely refused to allow them to blast away any part of the mountain or disturb the ecological make-up of the mountain. It was not until an innovative design was made to build the Lin Cove Viaduct that curves around the mountain. It is a wonder of engineering and beautiful to view from below. The final dedication of the Blue Ridge Parkway was in 1987.

Phyll

ROBBIE...try the Toledo Zoo! It is one of the best in the country, and many of it's buildings were built by the WPA. Here is an excerpt from The Toledo Blade in it's history of Toledo...

"Several demolished buildings were given to the zoo and became the source of new buildings. Plans for a reptile house, aviary, aquarium, museum of science, and an amphitheater were realized. These unique structures remain as a legacy to the tragedy and triumph of the times, created by hand by thousands of unemployed Toledo and area residents. These unique buildings are among the largest collection of WPA era buildings in the nation and are in the process of historic designation."

Love...Katie

Phyll:

I have ridden on this beautiful Parkway and had no idea it was a WPA project begun back in the Great Depression days. I am almost beginning to believe that the Depression was a wonderful thing!! Any other projects that you folks remember?

Robby

And now, as Katie tells us, it's the Toledo zoo!! Not that we want to re-open a discussion on the meaning of "greatest" but it is becoming increasingly apparent that that generation brought beauty out of "the worst of times". And this was a number of years before the U.S. entered the war.

Robby

BobC,

I have this wonderful picture in my mind of your bootlegging Granny riding the NY subway. Thanks for a wonderful story.

Robby,

I had a 6th grade teacher in 1939-40 that really drumned "current events" in to us. I remember searching through the newspapers and magazines for articles to take to school that dealt with the war in Europe and Hitler and persecution of the Jews. We had daily classroom discussions about what was happening. The kids who were in her class were very aware of the war long before Pearl Harbor. She was a good teacher. She was tough and demanding but she is one of the ones I have always remembered as teaching me the most.

Phyll

Phyll: You use the term "current events" and you had a wonderful teacher. Education, as important as it always is, was extremely important during those fast-changing times. You were blessed.

Robby

Robbie,

One more memory on the WPA----when I was on the library staff in New York one of our jobs was to take inventory. It was the only way we could determine what was still on the shelves and what had been "lost". I remember my amazement at coming across volume after volume of books of art and photography, etc., all documented as a part of the Works Project to employ literally starving artists. Without these books just imagine how much of that part of our heritage would have been lost along with all the information that has been so valuable for researchers even now.

I don't know that I would go so far to say that the Depression was a good thing but some of the innovative programs that came into being during that period are truly remarkable in their lasting value.

Phyll

Phyll: Many of us have agreed that F.D.R. was a marveous leader but another thing is becoming evident from the various memories posted here -- that is, that the President was surrounded by other men and women of very high caliber. Just think of all the midnight oil burned in Washington those Depression days as those men and women listed the many, many, many areas of our society that had to be covered by the New Deal -- programs that were written up in detail in the volumes that you perused in the library.

The only other time I can think of when so many high-caliber people gathered together to strengthen our citizenry was when our Founders gathered in Philadelphia.

Robby

I was born in 1930 so my memories of the Depression are only from a child's point of view. I know my Dad worked for the WPA for a while, my youngest uncle, Terry, was in the CCC (Civilian Conservation Corp). I was very fortunate, my mother came froma big family and they all helped each other, I don't remember going without anything. My husband (born in 1929), who's mother was divorced, remembers going to bed hungry many times.

Eileen

Robby and Gladys, an addition to the WPA list of projects. It seems to me that I remember my daughter in Ithaca,NY mentioning that the steps, paths, walkways and the bridges in their state parks, like Buttermilk Falls, Tremen, Taughannock Falls (all close to Ithaca) were constructed by the CCC workers during the Depression. All close to Ithaca, the parks are marvelous to hike in and have brought much pleasure to the citizens of the surrounding area.

My mother used to tell the story of her father and his brothers attempting "bathtub gin" during Prohibition. Anyone ever heard of this? What in the world would go in it? Gin is made with potatoes, isn't it?

Ann A. bathtub gin so called because the jugs of pure 100 percent alcohol that were pharmicutical found there way into some peoples hands through hospitals, universitys etc. the jugs were a large 2 gallon or 5 gallon and it was dumped into a tub and juniper berries added for flavor and distilled water to cut the alcohol content down to about 80 proof. I know this because it was done in my town with everyone in on it and probable everyone pitching in because they all shared it. All meaning all the grown men who did drink. My grandmother never had a drink in her life and even passed up ceremonial toasts, yet she always had a bottle of brandy in the medicine chest. Grandad did not drink unless it was a rare, and very cold glass of beer. During those days my Grandmother kept her medicine in her trunk in the attic she said, to keep her brothers and my dad from finding it. I remember her story of the apple cidar that turned to champagne type of drink and how her brothers didnt come home till that cidar was all gone and it turned her off any drink forever. She was very sweet about most other things. She and my mom were suffragettes and very political. Were I got my agenda I guess. Faith

Hi again - I have had a problem with this folder and could not read messages between April 28th & today. Strange. I am enjoying the book and the wonderful stories from everyone. Now I am packing to go out of town for almost two weeks so will be behind once more - I will try to get online from son's home if there is a spare hour.

Robert: You asked me (ages ago) to explain "ethics and morals seem to change with individual reasoning". I feel that many people live lives of outstanding ethics and morals but sometimes fall short when they believe that basic morals don't apply to their situation. Haven't you known a person with supposedly strong religious character dissapoint you in the way they have handled matters concerning their desires/lusts? Sometimes it is in business matters where they have a chance to make more money and they can say it is necessary and sometimes it is in their personal lives where they fail to honor their marriage vows. The "reasoning" then becomes "it is a private matter".

I don't know if this is a decent interpretation or not. Just did not want you to think that I was being silent to your long-ago question.

The individual stories are so wonderful. Perhaps we should be putting a great many of these in print? Just an on-looker - Carol

Thanks for the emails about the cat. Loved the stories.

FDR-Churchill. The fortuitous combination in exactly the time of need, especially FDR's response to Churchill's requests before we were officially in the war, is difficult to overestimate in importance, don't you think? From reading of FDR's life, I understand that he grew into the leader he became....but I never doubt that his potential was always there to be tapped. What an amazing man.

I've been reading the messages for the last hour and suddenly I remembered something that the WPA sponsored during my child- hood. It was wonderful summer theatre and the shows would be played in the local parks throughout New York City. It was exciting to see live theatre. My family could not afford to go to a Broadway play but we were lucky to live across the street from a park and were able to see wonderful plays, beautifully acted and directed. I remember seeing Romeo and Juliet and I was in another world for a few hours. The whole family came with chairs and sandwiches and we shared the pleasure. The depression was forgotten.

Betty:

A good point! There is nothing better than an excellent leader unless it is a combination of two excellent leaders. As you say, it was a "fortuitous combination in time of need." How often does something like that happen?

Robby

Partyday: How ironic that we are not living in depression times now, yet the opportunity to see such "wonderful plays, beautifully acted and directed" no longer exists in these local parks. Is all this what made that generation such a "great" generation? What is missing now that existed then? The hardships are missing among the general populace but what else?

Robby

Anne alden,thanks for telling me that ,I was,nt aware of that but have used them a lot .Ithaca is a buetiful place any way. during the hight of the bombing,lots of awful things happened just trying to take shelter.the main Place in London was the subways.One day the siren went and there was the ususal rush to the subway which you got down to by escalator,moving staircase.this day a lady tripped near the bottom,and people couldnt stop they all piled on top of each other ,in three minutes hundreds died ,and amzing ly enough,the lady who tripped survived.gladys

robbie ,what I think is missing now is ,the tolerance and compassion that mutual hardship brings .Sad but true

Gladys: That's something to think about. If tolerance and compassion are traits that come into existence when times are very hard, are we saying (ridiculous thought?!) that it would be better for all of us to have hard times return?

Robby

Not me. I have enough adversity right now without a Depression and a war to augment it. When I think back on real poverty I knew I realize how fortunate I really am, present day adversity or not. Maybe if more of us remembered the truly hard times we've seen once in a while and smiled at each other, we'd appreciate each other and work together, too.

Mal

no robbie wouldnt want them back,but it is true it seems we try and help more,who knows we humans are funny creatures,doesnt seem to be a reasonable answer.gladys

Joan asked above about the Japanese warring against the Chinese. Who remembers anything about the rape of Nanking?

Robby

I was in Reno NV 1942 when a movie Named the Rape of Nanking came out. My it seems like it was Jan or Feb right after Pearl and my husband thought it came out awfully fast. Of course we may just have not seen it till then but my memory is that that was the first of the real propaganda films re: japan we saw. Of course the historical facts are true regarding what happened to the Chinese in Nanking when the Japanese attact but that movie would showed such vile stuff make you hate a specific country and specific people, not just in a abstract way. The word became Jap from then on with negative adjetives I will not type. I know this type of propaganda had its uses but I deplore it. And so did the the men back from war, there was not this same type of movie made for Korea, and not for Vietnam either . I at least don't remember if there was such dereogaroty stuff out of Hollywood again. The worst thing I saw regarding vietnam was the picture of the little girl who was napalmed and ran screaming into the street. But that made me hate war and that war not the people ours or theirs who were fighting I dont know what the difference was. Does anyone remember. Faith

Here in the United States our war years ran from 1941 to 1945 (4 years). England was formally at war beginning in 1938 until 1945 (6 years). China was attacked by Japan in 1931 and Japan occupied parts of China until the end of the war in 1945 (14 years) -- or speaking in personal terms from the time I was 11 years old until 25 years old. Japan had already been at war for 10 years before it attacked the United States.

Neither my buddies nor I as we grew up thought much about what was going on in China except when it was briefly mentioned in History class in school nor did I think much about it after I was graduated from high school in 1937. It didn't affect me and I wonder if it affected any others of my generation.

Robby

There was a new book titled, "The Rape of Nanking" published last year. Written by a Chinese lady and well received but horrifying to those who read it. Isn't it strange that she thought no one knew about that time in history and yet several here remember it? And, that there may have been a movie made in 1941 with the same title?

Robby, I thought England was not at war until September 1939, when Hitler tore into Poland. My memory is poor about dates though.

Random thoughts today.

I knew there was a war in China, but didn't know much more than that. What I'm remembering is how we turned our noses up at things "Made in Japan". Now such items we bought in the dimestore are collectors' pieces if the trademark is the one before the Made in Japan one was used. Was it Nippon? What's happened since to Japanese products? Well, I for one drive a Japanese car that is beautifully made. It's fifteen years old, and only once have I had a real problem with it, and I call that pretty darned good.

There was some of that kind of chauvinistic snobbism when imports from many different countries began to come into the United States in the 60's and 70's, remember?

I wish I knew some of the Japanese language. One of my sons studied it in college. The Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu early in the 11th century is considered the first novel ever written. It's on one of my bookshelves, but I'll be darned if I can find it.

China and Japan had rich cultural heritages that dated thousands and thousands of years before BCE. Both of those countries were known to be fierce military fighters for thousands and thousands of years, too. Did anyone here ever read The Art of War by Sun Tzu? It is the oldest military treatise in the world. Militarists refer to it today for strategy, as do corporations, and, yes, football and other sport teams.

It is my opinion that reading the literature of other countries like China and Japan gives insight about the character and philosophies of those countries and some explanation of why those nations behaved in ways that they did and do.

Robby, what did the war in China have to do with World War II?

Mal

Both men are another great men of the generation. MacArthur is a controvertial figure in the U.S. but not in Japan. He governed Japan intelligently after the war and when he was fired by Truman during the Korean war, many Japanese cried as he left Japan. There were lines of people on the route to the airport. I am not a historian but I heard that there was a talk of splitting Japan with the Soviets just like Germany but MacArthur will not hear of it so they stopped at Kuriles or Karafuto(Japanese name). Russians and Japan still do not have a peace treaty because of these islands. Anyway, I was living in Hokkaido the northern part of Japan, having escaped the bombings of Tokyo. Had the Soviets landed there, I think my life would have been quite different. When I was in Richmond back in the 70s, I went to pay my respect to MacArthur who is buried there with his wife.

Truman was probably right in firing MacArthur. Many Japanese still to do this day feel whether Truman would have approved the atomic bombs in Japan if the similar situation prevailed in Europe. I think he would have dropped also in Germany especially if he had come across the data on extermination camps across Eastern Europe. Two great men, two quite different personalities. I somehow feel Churchill and MacArthur would not have gotten along. It was good that Douglas was in the Pacific.

Re Rape of Nanking, it is certainly a tragedy but some Japanese to this day try to whitewash it. I hope someday, they will tell it as it is. Regards Yuri

In Brokaw's book,"The Greatest Generation," on page 351, he writes about the disillusioning experiences of young Japanese-American men who were at first declared 4-C, or "unfit for military service." This was a real blow to many young Americans of Japanese ancestry who considered themselves true and patriotic Americans. A unit of these men was formed, the 442nd Regimental Combat Team. Before the war was over this regiment and its units would become the most highly decorated single combat unit of its size in American history. Daniel Inouye, a future Senator from Hawaii, was in that unit.

Lorrie

All countries whitewash their failures re: American White destruction of the American Native , Until recent times we never read a true history of the Rape of the Cherokee, or any other tribe. Look how the Spanish wiped out the natives and took over the South America Central America and Mexico however those countries still have a much higher population of their native peoples than the aUnited States I again state Robby that on the West Coast we were always more aware of the troubles in China and Japan. My classmates in the valley taught me ways to tell a Chinese student from a Japanese student both by name type and some general features this in 1941. There were Chinese here and in San Francisco that had buttons so they would not be mistaken for "The Enemy" I was terribly affected by this and never could make up my mind it was right even in the most awful days of the war. And I was in Montgomery Alabama when the Bomb dropped. My husband and his fellow Cadets said Truman would never have dropped that bomb on Germany. And my belief is he would not have. It was easier to loose it on "The Other" as always in history. Americans of all racial ethnicity forget their own Countries Failures and do not want to talk about it. Nor the Black Market. Nor the hoarding. I suspect people are ashamed if they remember at all which many do. Faith

Lorrie thank you so much for bringing to our attention that famous Battalion of Japenes American warriors. Some of those young men were from Sacramento and surrounding valley. At one time I knew a family out in Loomis who's young male relative served in the ETO

It was great right after Occupied Japan allowed the american soldiers to send things home my brother in law sent a beautiful set of china home, and many other things with Occupied Japan stamped on them. My sis has some of those left. I remembered in 1936 a boycott but I cant connect it to an event that caused it. It made it hard to shop at the 5and 10 store because we had to read on the bottom of everything what was written their. Faith

WPA: I remember our high school, Evander Childs in the Bronx, having its playing field sifted for stones by WPA workers. They took what seemed forever to do it. Most of their time was spent leaning on the shovels. Occasionally one or two would throw a shovel full of dirt into a sifter that shot out the soil and retained the stones. I would hear them talk to those who were too energetic, telling them to slow down. They didn't want the job to go too fast, and by God, it didn't. It must have taken them close to a year to complete the work, but I am pretty sure that to this day there isn't so much as a pebble left in the field.

General MacArthur: He may well be revered by the Japanese, but he sure wasn't by a lot of Americans. He was as phony as his comb over. When he was recalled from Korea by President Truman, for disobeying orders and proceeding to the China border against orders, causing huge American casualties and bringing China into the Korean War, hearings were held before the Foreign Relations Committee of the United States Senate. I was one of the official reporters who was assigned to the hearing.

He had a flunky, a captain, I believe, sitting next to him who kept him supplied with matches, water, and any other little thing that this self appointed devine being wanted. He just plain disobeyed orders, and there was no way he could explain that. He had delusions of grandeur, an almost messiah complex, and after listening to the testimony in both open and closed sessions, I am convinced that he was a very dangerous man. It was he who led troops against World War I veterans who had marched on Washington, hoping to get a bonus, during the depression. He burned their encampments and scattered them to the four winds. I am sure his defenders will say he was just following orders, but that's what the German military said about the atrocities they committed. One is not supposed to speak ill of the dead, but I am making an exception in his case.

Bob C

BobC my uncle Arthur was (the Bonus March An Infant was shot in her moms arms) there when that happened. He said there were many other choices that could have been made. My family adult males in Second WW were very antoagonistic toward McArthur. I remember those hearings but we did not have a TV at the time. I saw some newsreels I believe or maybe I just saw the coverage in Life mag. the pictures. Faith

I read all the posts every day and I have heard a lot of different things I never heard about before. As i wasn't born untill "38" I really don't have much to contribute, but I do remember not buying anything made in Japan. My Father would pay more for made in the USA goods. Even after I got married and left home if I bought anything new it was always USA goods, my Ex bought a radio I believe made in Japan and we never heard the end of that. We never bought him anything that was not made in the USA for years and years and then I think he lightened up a bit only because it was hard to find good electric items made in the USA, untill the day he died he didn't like having to do that.

MacArthur had book brilliance and leadership qualities far above and beyond average.

Unfortunately, these very qualities made him unable to empathize with others. He had enormous megalomania.

We needed to tap into and utilize that greatness in time of peril to our country. I wonder if possibly he was treated as a little tin god from infancy and thus never learned to be a human being. We'll never know.

Robbie .we were at war six years in Britain it started in 1939 till 45. Yes there was a movie of The rape of Nanking.I watched it on Tv it was very disturbing.

We in Britain we rounded up the Italians and Germans,many of them great friends.

there was a big sausage factory called simpsons,really Stinfigs it was closed down ,along with hundreds of others .Gladys

Yuri Okuda, I remember reading that MacArthur was well thought of in Japan. For some reason, he was able to be fair to them and was supposedly empathetic toward the leaders. Personnel who have lived in foreign countries during their service years are supposed to try to understand the ways of the country and its people. After hearing so much negative thought about MacArthur, I wonder if all is correct here. That he was a meglomaniac but seemed to understand the Japanese? And to treat that country fairly? Stranger things have happened! Maybe he thought he was their new emporer!

I do not believe it was a question of his understanding the Japanese, Ann. Rather I believe it was that they understood him. And the Japanese of those days, and for the previous centuries, admired and indeed almost worshiped authority figures. The higher the authority, the greater he was held in esteem. And they did actually worship their emperor. It was the policy of this country of ours not to trample down the peoples of the countries we defeated. We helped both Germany and Japan get back on their feet. The earlier eye witness account here, was it bobc?, was, I believe, the correct description of MacArthur. I was an Army Brat. Everyone says MacArthur was the first to go into Japan, but I can tell you that is not true. There were at least 5 planes of personnel who went in prior to the General's decision it was probably safe for him. My own father was on the first plane to go in. He said they were scared to death. They did not know whether they would be shot or just what to expect. As it was, they were treated like Gods and there was much bowing and scraping and proffering of gifts. My Dad was also with the first contingent of Americans to go to view the atom bomb damage. I think he told me they went by train and went first to Hiroshima. The scene almost did him in, and he never really got over it. My Dad admired MacArthur, although he would do a sort of snort/chuckle at some of the publicity stunts he pulled. Patton was the one my father could not abide.

Thank you, glayds,for giving me Wouks name. I thought it may be Herman Wouk that wrote the "Winds Of War" and "War And Remembrance," but I wasn't sure.

Mary Page, you are so right about the Japanese of centuries ago admiring and worshiping the authority figures. James Clavell's "Cai Jin" descrbes this vey thing about ancient Japan. While it is a book of fiction, it is based on fact. I gained a lot of insight of the Japanese customs and religion by the reading this book.

If you will read the book "We Band of Angels" that I previously alluded to as a clickable to the Archives, you will find a discussion we had on MacArthur leaving (abandoning is the better word) the Phillipine Islands before the Japanese invaded. He and his immediate aides, or whatever, were flown out by military plane to Australia to get him safely away. However, the troops were all left behind to surrender to the enemy and go on the Baatan Death March and barely survive or die in the prison camps.

And the newspapers, of course, played up to him - they needed a hero and he was given headlines saying "I WILL RETURN!" Probably practiced that for 2 days before he allowed the photographers to shoot it. Some leader!

What he practiced was the wading ashore. THAT was a hoot! I am speaking now of the photo op offered when he finally did "return". He had already arrived, but wanted a picture of himself striding through the water, so they staged that whole thing. Hoo Ha! They all got their shoes and slacks soaking wet up to the knees because the General wanted that picture! True! There is another mistake people make, but in all honesty, this one is not MacArthur's fault. Everyone nowadays says: "MacArthur's famous words: 'Old Soldiers never die, they just fade away.'"

Well, they were not his words. And he himself said as much. But we are in the habit of taking phrases out of context and incorrectly using them historically. Terrifying to think how often this has been done down through the ages, and we don't even know it. MacArthur told the Congress in that famous speech that he would end with the words from an old Army drinking ballad. Now that sentance I just wrote is not in quotes because I am writing from memory of the speech and do not have the wording perfectly.

I grew up singing those words. I was in my twenties when MacArthur was fired and made that speech, but I knew the words well. All of us Army Brats did.

I was reading that MacArther was our only 4 star General at the beginning of President Roosvelt's first term . That changed very quickly. I grew up with a boy who eventually went to West Point . When he was a grown man long after this ww11 he told me that in West Point the General was not held in high esteem and they bantyed tales of him about all the time. Must find more to read about this. Faith

Marypage everytime you post I learn something and good lessons too. Like this one about being misquoted. I to remember the stories of the photo being "staged" and I suppose it was hard to get just exactly the right pose out there in the water and the wind and the waves etc. makes me ) Faith

I'm just back after a long day at work and have been spending time reading all those glorious posts which help us learn so much about the Pacific Theater of Operations. May I add parenthetically that today is May 5th and that exactly one month ago today (April 5th) this Discussion Group opened and here we are already over 1000 postings!! Now that's what I call a successful forum !!

I can't react to everything that has been said here since I left this morning so you'll forgive me if I skip here and there.

Mal: You ask what the China war had to do with World War II. All we need to do is look at the Security Council of the United Nations. This is composed of the five nations that were part of the Allied Forces in World War II -- United States, United Kingdom, Soviet Union (now Russia), France, and China.

Yuri: Regarding Truman vs MacArthur, regardless of who was right or wrong, it does help people who do not understand completely the structure of the U.S. government to realize that the civilian take precedence over the military. That is one our strengths. The Chief of Staff of the Military takes orders from the Secretary of Defense, a civilian. The Chief of Staff of the Army takes orders from the Secretary of the Army, a civilian, etc. etc. And then the ultimate -- the Head of State, the president, a civilian, is also the Commander of Chief of all armed forces. MacArthur disobeyed the Commander of Chief. That is insubordination and cannot be condoned. Truman had no choice. What a wonderful nation we live in !!

BobC painted an accurate picture of MacArthur as I understood him. He was, as MaryPage says, a megalomaniac -- however, Ann, megalomaniacs accomplish things and we have to put up with shenanigans.

I have similar memories to MaryPage. I remember marching up and down the drill fields at Ft. Meade, Md., singing "Old Soldiers Never Die....." long before MacArthur was fired. He was a Broadway actor until the end.

Robby

Robby McArthur accomplished shooting women and children in the streets of this nations Capitol Oh yes, not by his own gun but it was on his orders and it was no mistake . There was no order from the President to shoot civilians it came from McArthur who was running the show at the Bonus March. Boy when I think of the atrocities that can be committed by men because they were ordered too (mcarthurs soldiers) I want to throwup. Faith

New questions will soon be presented above for the coming week but in the meantime may I mention something that happened in that generation that, in my opinion, made it "great." I am speaking of Social Security. I was graduated from high school in 1937, started working, and took out a SS card immediately. Now over 60 years later, I find that the amount I receive monthly, while not huge, is a significant part of my monthly income.

Not only President Roosevelt but other far-looking leaders of those times made a decision which has brought a bit more happiness to me in my latter years.

I consider that action an event that helped to make that generation "great."

Robby

Let us look at the question above in red. The key phrase is "shared purpose." Each of us were individuals. We had different jobs. Our families had different backgrounds. Our incomes were often very different. And yet, do you get the feeling that there was a shared purpose? If so, what was the purpose?

Robby

Many and powerful people in the USA who are of the Generation we are talking about hated FDR . "They Hate Roosevelt" Harpers 1936 and "They still hate Roosevelt New Republic" 1938 . M Childs a political writer analyzed the haters "who were thousands of men and women of the American upper class. No other word will do for the passion and the fury of the upper stratum of America are against him even though --their bank balances were replendished since the low point in 1933." In repeating the " Rosenfeld" myth I am perhaps steping on toes but in those days some people said right out they prefered Hitler to Roosevelt. Such Nonsene, but some of this was passed down to the middle classes and I heard it first hand at school and around the soapbox orators in the parks.

From what I read The President ignored this, carried forward his fight for the common man and ignored these barbs from the public. If you care to read the history of the battles in congress to get his New Deal reform measures past you will wonder how he could maintain the fair and equitable face for the nation that he did.

What I am say ing is - when I tell my children and grandchildren about my generation I want them to know the gigantic hate within segments of society have against other segments, and what happens . I want their eyes open to the truth of history not the myth . Many might have died on poor farms- my children might have had the burden of my total support perhaps if it were not for S.S. and that is true many of us. But it was a big fight to get all the new Deal reform measures in place an now we must teach our kids truly so they will make decisions and do some fighting if they need to.

The generation we belong to are a generation starting way before 1900 for there were many old people like my grandparents born during civil war who were the catalyst for the New Deal, and so were the WW1 Veterans I saw around Vallejo and Mare Island who were the orators in the park, and were in the vast march of men and women to the voting booths to support President Roosevelt Faith

Faith:

Shows a need for honest and objective education, doesn't it?

Robby

Well said, Faith!

Robby, we did feel a shared purpose. Only that once in my lifetime. The only thing that came anywhere close to it, and that was not the same at all, was that dreadful long weekend we all remained glued to the television because our President had been assassinated. That weekend this entire nation was in a state of shock.

For the almost 4 years of our involvement in WWII we were one nation. One cause, one outlook, one fervent effort, and knit together in mutual trust and affection.

We felt we were fighting against totalitarianism ruling the world and blotting out the sunshine of Freedom. We had patriotic posters all Over the Place. Many of them exhorted us to do our duty: join up, help out, save rather than waste, don't hoard, buy savings bonds and stamps, "Loose Lips Sink Ships", write to our servicemen, etc. But then there were those wonderful posters of THE FOUR FREEDOMS. Remember those? I think Norman Rockwell did them. They were Everywhere, and they epitomized what was in our hearts. For in those years we were as heavily aware of what we had and could lose as any one person is while standing beside the bed of a child fighting for its life.

Marypage that is a wonderful description of the feelings. ThankYou.. Faith

MaryPage refers to the posters everywhere about the Four Freedoms. Even prior to our entering the war, President Roosevelt made a speech to Congress on January 6, 1941 in which he said that "we look foward to a world founded upon four essential human freedoms."

1 - Freedom of speech.
2 - Freedom to worship.
3 - Freedom from want.
4 - Freedom from fear.

As we look at the question above referring to a "shared purpose," do we see a connection between our nationally shared purpose at that time and the Four Freedoms? What do each of these freedoms mean to you. What do they mean together as a purpose? As you dig into your memories, what did they mean to you then? What do they mean to you now?

Robby

Wow! What reactions to MacArthur. I knew Truman had the right to fire MacArthur. I just said 'probably' because I just thought perhaps Korea may have been one country now without the starving North if MacArthur had his way. On the other hand, more UN soldiers mainly Americans would have died. Don't remember whether China had the bomb at that time but yes WWIII was not far fetched.

On your 4 points of FDR, I think the Japanese-Americans on the Pacific Coast did not have Freedom from Fear. Not fear physically but spiritually, they had to go through a lot. I was told by my friend's father who was interned that they wanted America to win. They had shared the belief of winning one from inside the wire and one from outside. To this day, there are two groups of Japanese-Americans who share different views. When they were asked to take the oath of allegiance, one group agreed so that they can fight the unjustness later but one group asked that first they should be given the right as an American before taking the oath of allegiance. One group thought the other a cop out and to this day. I hope they can bury the hatchet now. Y

The sharing with other families of the misfortunes and problems we all had during the depression and WW2 made us a stronger generation. The adversities nurtured in us an inner strength of spirit, to shield us in sudden future misfortunes, and gave us the ability to try to change those things we could not accept.

I did radio repair and erected radio and shortwave antennas when I came home from 4 years of army service in WW2 . It became my chief hobby, although my regular occupation was with the State of NY as a power plant engineer.

I made my first tv set from a kit in 1953, but because I was 140 miles from the nearest tv station, I found it very difficult to get a clear picture on my set. Although a radio signal follows the contour of the earth, a tv signal can only travel in a straight "line of sight" direction in space. For this reason, antenna installers had to erect 75 to 100 feet towers to receive tv signals from over 100 miles away, and I became very adept at this when the first tv sets came on the market.

In January of 1964 I fell from one of these towers, hit a roof on the way down, at the 30 foot level, and continued on to the ground, breaking my back, both wrists, several ribs, my pelvis and my pride. I spent the next 6 months recouperating in the hospital, undergoing much surgery.

Two weeks after I fell, my wife came into the same hospital and at the age of 44, gave birth to our son, who turned out to be a Downs Syndrome child.

Because of all the trauma she suffered at this time, my wife had a nervous breakdown, went into a very serious depression, was committed to a mental institution, and never recovered sufficiently to return home. After I recovered from my injuries, I tried to find professional help for my son, but was told by all the professionals that I should institutionalize him, and forget that I ever had him. After much searching, I was able to find other parents who had handicapped children at home, and were willing to start a pilot program and participate in teaching simple skills to these children in a sheltered work shop, with their handicapped peers as friends and companions. The simple skills consisted of teaching them to tell time, make change and make conversation and react with one another.

I noticed that most of the children had some speech defect, could not pronounce certain words or stuttered, and had much difficulty expressing themselves to us and each other, because of the speech impediment. About this time, in 1964, I noticed an article in the newspaper that stated that our county Teacher's College was hiring a speech pathologist, of Japanese descent, by the name of Patricia Gengo to teach Speech Pathology.

I went to the college and after explaining to her the situation we were in with speech difficulties in the work shop, I asked Patricia if she could help us out with the children. She told me that if I could get volunteers to work with each individual child she would instruct that volunteer how to correct the particular speech impediment that each child had, and they would have to continue the instructions repeatedly.

I went to the local seminary college and asked the Rector for volunteers, and although he was very reluctant, he allowed me to ask the assembled students for volunteers and 20 raised their hands and became tutors to these handicapped children, in the workshop and in their homes, with their parents.

When this news got out, other parents of handicapped children, some of whom had been hiding these children, brought their children to the work shop to take advantage of the better communicaton skills their child would receive.

At this time there were so many handicapped children "coming out of hiding" that the state offered to subsidize the program. The program was started with 12 children originally, and now has over 300 handicapped children being bussed daily in the county to programs and workshops running in five locations. Some of these children have been taken out of Institutions and now live in one of our many group homes with house parents.

I have a prison ministry, and was able to help coordinate a Special Olympics Program in Collins Bay Penitentiary, in Kingston, Ontario, Canada, for both American and Canadian handicapped children which is televised on national television annually,and our local county children participate. The prisoners act as instructors to the handicapped children who come from many American and Canadian areas. The children are housed and sleep at the Barracks at Fort Henry and are provided with their Olympic Uniforms and prizes by money raised by the prisoners. Last year they raised $18,000 for the participants.
Pat

Oh, Pat!

What a truly evolved, intelligent, practical and committed person you are. Your life has been a boon to the human race, and especially to these children and the adults they become.

Bless you and thanks.

That is one of the most inspiring stories I have heard in a long time! Wow, Pat, you have certainly made your life and your son's worthwhile. Congratulations! I have sent it to a couple of friends and my brother.

Patrick, what a tragic and yet wonderful story you've told. Freedom for the handicapped and disabled is very important to me, since I've been in that group for nearly 65 years. The supermarket where I shop hires Downs Syndrome people to bag groceries. These people are supervised in a gentle and unobtrusive way, and they do a wonderful job. The fact that they are hired shows the progress that has been made in the United States. I could tell stories of job rejection because of my physical handicap in as short a time as 15 years ago.

What is stated in both of Tom Brokaw's books and what we've posted here are examples of the four freedoms Franklin D. Roosevelt made so clear. Freedom from fear is perhaps the most difficult of all to attain. Much of that fear is caused by irrational prejudice, and it is that which must be examined and changed.

When I think of freedom, in the back of my mind is the thought, "What would my life be without it?"

Mal

Pat:<:>There are no words to express the magnitude of what you have done and are undoubtedly still doing!!! And we are all so caught up with your story that we just might forget your original comment (as exemplified by your story) about the importance of "sharing misfortunes and problems with other families." The strength of sharing has been proven time and time again (just one example is the 12-step program) and, as you indicate, this might be one of the strengths that took many of us through the Great Depression and World War II.

Any memories of sharing in that period of time that others might want to tell us?

Robby

Kudus to Pat, like others here I too think often of what it would be like to lack these basic freedoms. And there is not anything but good to say about assisting handicapped or neglegted children.I for one do remember those signs and we discussed them in current events at school along with every thing else that was going on.

But Yuri is right too. For some they didnt find the same Freedoms and is true. Bill Mauldin wrote that of the Nesei, "hardly a man had not been decorated at least twice and their casualty rates were appalling" while the Japanes Warriors for America were doing that white California took possession of their property. The Nisiei themselves returning in uniform were rejected by barbershops and restaurants. Many sat on their hands and looked the other way while this stuff happened. My mother made a huge turn around and became vocal and said to the owners of such places she would not shop anywhere where a Nisiei could not. This story is true -a Representative fro the War Department was around the valley disturbed by the Nisei incidents, so white officers who had served with them were brought to make speechs and One first lieutenant was asked by a farmer " How many of them Japs in your company got Killed.? "All but two in my platoon " he answered, "Too goddam bad they didnt get em all." People just stared at the ceiling at the floor No one said a word. - This is recounted by William Manchester in the Pride and the Glory chapter on Home Front. Faith

Pat---Your story moved me deeply. You have given us a personal example of how much good can come out of terrible adversity.

The grocery store where I shop also hires Downs Syndrome people as well as others with handicaps and birth defects. And several of them have been there for many years. They are baggers, shelf replenishers, basket organizers, and pickup groceries aides. Many of them recognize me and smile. And this is a LARGE grocery store in an upscale--and often unfriendly--neighborhood.

Maryal

We learn very slowly, don't we?

Robby

After reading all the posts following mine about MacArthur, my thoughts are tumbling out. I would hate to think of what would happen to anyone who dared do to American veterans what MacArthur did to them during the bonus march. These were people who had put their lives on the line to defend our country, and were brutalized by MacArthur. This country has never had its Government overthrown by force, but I would bet the ranch that would be the case if it were to happen today. Of course it never could, but I do a boil everytime I think about the SOB.

I was in Japan shortly after the war, during the American military occupation. I worked on the War Crimes Trials. I found that Japan was a very disciplined country, in dreadful devastation that was hard to believe. Children were in rags, literally starving, as were so many of the adult population. Yet there was little or no crime. I never feared mixing with these very friendly people, who had up to Japan's surrender, sworn to fight to the last. As is always the case when dictatorships run a country, it is the civilians who suffer. However, at least in this case most of the leaders were brought to justice. Hirohito was spared, bringing the war to a swifter end. As someone said, the Japanese did worship their Emperor, and in a manner of speaking, MacArthur could be said to have assumed that role.

I know he despised General Eisenhower, who became one of our truly great presidents. MacArthur hoped it would be he, and he never got over being rejected for that high office. All I can say on that is it couldn't have happened to a more deserving guy.

Bob C

Any further comments about a "shared purpose" in those days or general attitudes toward the Four Freedoms? Were these just words to the populace or do you think most people felt strongly about each of those Freedoms?

Robby

I guess that "shared purpose" is what holds us all together. Even those of us in the Forgotten Generation. We can't trade on the hard times of the depression as we were too young to really know what we were recovering from. The names Salerno, Anzio, Utah, and Normandy were palces we heard on the radio. But we did take up the torch, in places named Pusan, Tague, and Inchon. We did not get the "bad press" of Viet Nam, in fact once the truce was signed, we got very little press at all. We did, however, raise our kids to the "shared purpose of freedom". The same kids that protested the war in Viet Nam. Some of them went to Canada. Maybe the "Forgotten War" that carried the label of "Police Action" changed some of the attitudes toward the politics of war. I only know that if the people are allowed to speak, and remember faults shown in previous times, we should all be better for it.
Off the soapbox now. As anyone who has met me can tell you, I mostly sit in the corner and quietly observe.

Theron

I was young at the start of ww two, only nine years old,I remember my mother and father after coming out of a tough depression went to work in a factory in New Haven, Ct. called winchester repeating Arms, most people will remember they manufactured the wnchester rifle, but during the war they started making amunition, my mother worked nights and my father worked days since there were six of us kids at home and one of them was always home to watch us, I have to iterject here a kind of funny story about my Dad, even though there were five children he was classified as 1A and he didnt know what hwe would do if he was called, although we know he would go and do his duty, so nine months later therewas another child and he never did get called,thats when he and my mother went to work. I remember we children were happy because they were now making money and we had the best christmas ever, my sister and i got watches and chenille bathrobes, anyone remember those? it wasn't until years later that i realized our good fortune was based on the deaths of so many. I remember as children sitting on the floor, my parents in chairs and listening to the news on the radio, we children were as concerned a the grown up abot what was going on.I remember the speech FDR made and the one made by Winston Churchill. I can still hear their voices in my head. In our nieghborhood many of the windows were adorned with small flags, some had gold stars in the center, they reprisented boys in that family that were killed in action, some came back and never were the same.

I am still proud to be an american and yes we still have freedoms, but freedom from want and freedom from fear i think we are still working on.

Pat what a truly inspiring story,only just got, home but had to say that I was singing old soldiers never die ,when I was a child in England. Gladys

Robby- Sorry I have been awy for a while. I have just spend the last two hours reading posts on this page and it is just overwhelming the response and reaction this discussion has brought. I am gonig to visit my sister in June. We usually spend time talking about our experiences. I will make it a point to get more insight of her activities. She allways tells me how lucky she feels to still be alive. She had to watch many of her friends and associates get tortured and shot, and wonders how she managed to escape. I can't promisse , but I will try to find a way to access senior net while I am in France. If I can get on the net I will try to get her to tell some f her experiences. Marguerite.

Marguerite:

That's a wonderful idea to get your sister in France to share some of her experiences. A French perspective would help us to better understand what was going on in WWII times. Have a nice trip but as you are leaving in June hopefully we will hear a bit more from you before you leave. How does it happen that you live here and your sister lives in France?

Robby

Bobc - RE the Tokyo Trials, I guess many had to be executed. A few exceptions perhaps. General Honma who disagreed with HQ was relieved of his command and spend most of his war in seclusion. He helped many Philipinos during his command but because his underlings were SOBs, he was not spared. The other was Hirota, the diplomat who tried to bring war to conclusions but he was the Foreign Minster at the end of war so he had to go.

I wasn't in rags fortunately but food was scarce especially for non-farmers. I thank the help that came from the U.S. though in hind sight, the shipment was interesting. Someone thought that we eat fish a lot which is true. So, one ration our family of four received was 70 cans of squid including the black stuff. On another occasion, it was about the same cans of sardines. In either case, we didn't starve. We were fortunate.

Margueritte - You'll have no trouble communicating with the senior net. There are internet cafes' springing up here and there at least in Paris. I don't know about other areas. Some people in France want to forget the Vichy regime. As I understand it, Vichysoire is an American concotion or perhaps it was French but calling it by different name.

In a couple of weeks time a group of us will be visiting Omaha Beach, the American Cemetery, Pointe du Hoc and the Ranger Memorial. This will be a very moving experience. So many died for the freedom of all that we enjoy now. Y

I don't remember much change after Pearl Harbor in the house where I lived. My uncle went back to work, and so did my aunt. The only time the war meant more than there was fighting going on in places far, far away was when someone we knew was sent overseas.

There was a lot of talk about Roosevelt, whom I said before here was hated by my family. I believe my uncle was more isolationist than not, and he sincerely believed it was Roosevelt's fault that we were at war. He remembered World War I and thought there would never be another World War. Anger about the Democrat administration and the President was expressed very often by the family that raised me.

Their opinions influenced me, and it was not until the sixties when I began to question what I had learned and believed up until then. My questioning was difficult, too, since I married a man whose views were very similar to those I'd heard at home as a child. The change in me brought some dissension to my marriage, since I no longer agreed with "The Boss's" political views or views about the history of this country. I wonder if that happened to other women, too?

Mal

Yuri:

Great that you will be visiting Omaha Beach, the American Cemetery, Pointe de Hoc, and the Ranger Memorial!! We will be looking forward to your posting regularly your reactions to what you did and saw. (If you don't mind being given an assignment, so to speak.) They are all so relevant to what we are discussing here. Thank you for your regular postings now!

Robby

Good morning! I have just caught up with reading so many profound posts...and cannot thank you enough for sharing with us your personal memories!

Yurie, Robby has given you quite an "assignment"! Please share your response to this site. This is what moved Tom Brokaw so much. While contemplating the battlefield, and the heroic men who fought for our freedoms, he was reminded by Stephen Ambrose of the importance of recalling "the savage nature of war." Do you agree with Stephen Ambrose ~ or is the reality of war best forgotten?

A big Welcome to Theron & Theresa B.! Another nametag for a generation...the Forgotten! Theron, we need to talk about that...Forgotten or Silent? You are both very welcome - "Speak Up"!

I have received my book and want to say "Thank you very much"! I remember how people were more helpful to one another then as now as it seemed to all of us that we had a common enemy...today society seems to have many enemies that separates us into many splintered groups...I remember how my mother made jelly out of the peelings of apples...and I remember how my grandmother enjoyed so much Father Charles Couglins messages although she never attended church and only listened to radio services...Strange! I dont remember that they were "blatant" "anti-Semitism" messages...I wonder if my grandmother had such thoughts... she being a Norwegian might explain it! She always considered the Swedes as being cowardly..How do we come to love one another and become tolerant of each other is a puzzle I guess....Ann

Joan, "Forgotten", maybe! "SILENT"? NEVER!!!

Yes, we do indeed need to recall Ambrose's reminder that war is savage. It can made monsters of us all in the name of helping our neighbors and protecting ourselves, We, who have never had to leave home to defend our or another country, really aren't able to comprehend the horror of war. I was looking at the devastation in one of the European countries after WWII and thought to myself, we are doing this to ourselves and to our world? Its frightening!

Ann:

You use the word "devastation." I shared this memory once before in one of the forums but I can recall standing on one side of the city of Julich in Germany and our Allied bombing had been so complete that I could see men walking on the other side of the city. It was flat!

That is, it was flat except for a church standing up in the middle of the city which "we" had allowed to stand. You see, folks, we are moral people.

Robby

There is a new Masterpiece Theatre offering beginning tonight on Public Television and continuing the next 2 Sunday nights.

It is about a priest in occupied France in 1940 and his problems with the Nazis. Having not viewed it myself, I cannot comment on it. John Thaw, who has been so magnificent as Inspector Morse, plays the priest; so at least the acting should be outstanding.

I will take the liberty to throw some humor into this discussion. It was humor that helped keep many citizens of war-torn countries alive and sane. Your mention of a priest, MaryPage, reminded me of a story told me by a French woman who said it was a highly circulated story in France during the war.

There was this town in France where the hobby by almost everyone was keeping parrots. Parrots, as we know, often copy what they hear in their own homes and one day a German soldier walked by to hear this parrot say; "Down with the dirty Boche." He banged on the door and told the woman that if he heard the parrot say that again he would kill it.

The woman was distraught and spoke to her priest. No problem, he said, we'll just trade parrots. He'll never know. The next day the German soldier strode purposefully by the house but the parrot said nothing. The solder strode by again in the other direction but the parrot said nothing.

Finally, in order to provoke it, the German shouted:"Down with the dirty Boche" and the parrot responded: "May your prayers be answered, my son!"

Robby

In reading all the posts here I am trying to remember some of the happenings of my surroundings of World War II and can't seem to recall too much. There was not too much spoken about it in my family or at least my younger brothers and sister and I were shielded from it by the "older folks." I do remember the ration stamps the saving of scrap metals, waiting in line for butter, and a few other small things. Also the flag hanging in my grandmother's window with four blue stars and a gold one in the middle for my father.

Joan P. - Yes, FORGOTTEN, We were far from silent. We were not greeted with parades when we returned and only a few of the GI Bill rights were "grandfathered" to us. A campaign of letters and assemblies forced congress to extend the full value of the WWII GI Bill to the Korean Vets. By the time this happened we were in the beginnings of the Viet Nam involvement and were thus ignored by most of the Press and TV people.
I don't know how often it occurred, but in my personal experience, the American Legion and the VFW were very reluctant to grant offices to anyone who had not served in WWII untill those members were "burned out" or deceased. Now I hear of a campaign to recruit membership from the Viet Nam Vets. Seems there may not be enough WWII vets to train new officers in a few years.
Ok, back to my "Quiet Corner"....:>)

Theron

devastation!!yes lets not forget it.One xmas eve we were in the shelters all night ,during the bombing of Manchester,the sky was lit up for miles,that was one xmas I will never forget,and the next morning you had to see these ,immediatly after,the fires the crying the other heroes, were the fire fighters what a job they had .Ithik of our little heros also ,the children who were evacuated,stood with their tags on waiting to be sent somewhere.that must have been a scary thing for them.Lots of unsung heros at that time .gladys

Yes, Yuri, many Japanese war criminals were hanged, or sentenced to various prison terms, up to life. The atrocities committed against American and other prisoners of war were horrible. The Geneva Convention was all but ignored, and it's miraculous that so many survived.

It was sad to see the suffering of the Japanese people though. I remember small children sleeping wherever they could, dressed in rags, eating out of garbage cans, and fighting over scraps. There were children with missing limbs who roamed the streets. Many Americans looked after them. I even sort of "adopted" a couple of kids, whom I named Hans and Fritz. FYI, there was a comic strip in those days, with that name.

They would come to me for food and clothing, which I supplied. The clothes were stolen from them by the older children, but I know I did a "mitzvah" (Yiddish word for good deed), and am glad I was able to help.

Bob C

How amazing that even in the midst of war, children come to the fore and suddenly we turn from "killers" to "healers" in seconds. I have memories too of the German children. They were so innocent, coming to us for candy and chewing gum not realizing that we were the "enemy."

Robby

REALITY OF WAR SHOULD NEVER BE FORGOTTON and it really was for the Korean vets and again for the Veitnam vets. We watched Veitnam on the evening news and listened to body counts. I watched in horror as some people in bars were having cocktails and eating peanuts and watching six oclock news of the vietnam war Instead of horror there seemed to be no reaction I know many people who really want to forget the horror of war and I am aware that the participant who has trauma from war needs to put it away most of the time. Since this discussion started I have spoken to more people of the "old days" than I did for 50 years. Since my house was a verbal home with everyone running in after school to share what ever was going on , I never had anything hidden from me that was public. The secrets in my house were of the Victorian type and had to do with private matters like sex and marriage and divorce and immorality . My i family could talk of war interminably and never mention sexual immorality . Everyone comes from slightly different backgrounds and has different customs like I am speaking of. In some childrens houses you did not speak of war in 1940. As far as Keeping the horrors of war alive I love the Documentaries on the history channel. And on Discovery. This is what kept it more true than a history book . Faith

theron I have mentioned it here on this discussion,about the vietnam war.the men were almost looked down on,when it was over. my son was in the vietnam war,he was drafted when we had been here six months ,which was fair enough ,but they refused him american citizen ship,until the full time of five yrs had elapsed.

I have been lost in time since we started this,I have talked about it ,dreamed about it ,even gone around singing the old war songs. I have gone back to meeting and marrying my husband during the war.I have even felt young again:-0 silly as it may seem nostalgia can open up many doors you thought closed. going to tea dances ,that dont seem to exist any more. graceful dresses.all part of that period. boys would escort you home if you had the last walze with him ahhh.oh well back to the present ,gladys

As I survived basic training and was sent off to Camp Lejuene N.C. to train in amphibious warfare as a member of a boat crew, training with the Marines, I started to get an understanding as to what I was a part of being involved,with Marines who had returned from the Pacific fighting and were now going to train new recruits, trying to be "one of the guys" was talked into having a "chaw" of tobacco while on a Chris-craft bobbing up and down,promptly swallowed it and spent the next several hours in miserable shape, with no sign of understanding coming from anybody, being in a chow line that included a piece of cake as dessert,the cook passing out the cake leaned over to me and said very softly"would you like to have two pieces?" Oh ya I sure would I answered, he then cut the one piece in half. This was the beginning of an education I could not buy for any amount of money.My service years prepared me well for the future,I was so proud to wear that uniform wherever I went in the world ,and that feeling has stayed with to this day, with a lump in my throat whenever I see the Flag and hear our National Anthem

Dunmore:

I remember that old "two pieces of cake" bit. They gave that to all of us.

You say that your "service years prepared you well for the future." Would you expand a bit on that, please?

Robby

From a book not on this subject, I read a sentence that made me think of this subject:

"....that we humans ultimately love something that we have to struggle for---something that we give up everything to have---far more than the things that fall our way through chance."

We've talked about adversity in general, but not how the price that was paid in lives and deprivation affected the ultimate love of country.

_____________________________________

Theron, you know what? I'm ashamed to say I know virtually nothing about the Korean war. Wars before and after, yes, pretty extensive reading. Even an interest by extension in England during WWII. I've read many books on the Civil War. Your calling attention to this forgotten war has really stunned me; it's the first time I've really given any thought to what I know or don't about it. I know nothing about it. Is there an Ambrose-like historian of that war that stands above the rest?

I can relate to the fortitude of some of the service men that Brokaw describes in his book and their will not to give up even in their work after they returned from duty. I think it was indicative of our generation not to think of giving in. I know in my life, after I returned from service, I had some adversities both in younger life and mid life, but I took for granted I had to keep plugging a long to see things through to the out come and make things be OK. The thought of “giving up” never crossed my mind. I think this trait was instilled in us by preceding generations.

While reading the “Greatest Generation,”I can’t help but think of other great generations, especially those of our own country. I envision the pioneers crossing the continent on their “westward-ho” journey in the Conestoga wagons to open the west and settle other parts of our nation. The trials and hardships these pioneers endured along the way, caring for their sick and burying their dead, while traveling over arid country and through the passes of the Rocky Mountains in these primitive wagons in all kinds of weather, is hard for me to imagine. But they did it. And they did not give up. Thereby making the development of country possible

The Pilgrims of this nation crossed the sea in sail ships, nothing at all like the luxury cruise ships of today. They, too, went through wind-tossed seas and all kinds of weather--what a journey that must of been. And, when they landed on this our shores, they went right to work carving out a new land for themselves and for future generations, of which “The Greatest Generation” is one.

I know my thoughts here are a little bit of the beaten track we have been following, but I put all this down to point out that our generation Must have inherited this strong will to succeed. To keep going and make things turn out OK.

Bill H

Bill H believes that it is "indicative of our generation not to give in" but also suspects that "this trait was instilled in us by previous generations" -- the Pilgrims, the pioneers who pushed westward, etc.- and that we are one of many "great" generations.

These thoughts are not off the beaten track, Bill. How do some of the rest of you feel?

Robby

Betty Gregory - It is not suprising that you don't know about the Korean "Police Action". There were very few headlines and not much news generated other than the "grandstanding" by, and the firing of, MacArthur. I don't expect that there are a lot of Non Korea Vet people who heard about the "Lost Battalion". There are many stories that are locked in finality. The "Breakout" at Inchon made some news footage for a few days but did not begin to express what these men had been through.
I do not know of any historian who has written an in-depth book and this contributes to the "Forgotten War" nomenclature.

Theron

THERON...all that I know about the Korean War came from my lasting addiction to "M*A*S*H". I can tell you anything you need to know about field hospitals, but very little about the war itself. My husband could not join the Naval Reserve because they already had filled the ranks...you got paid for attending meetings, remember? But, it meant he was not on the list when they called up the reserves to serve in the Korean police action. Whew! With two small children, we were relieved...and too occupoed to pay much attention to war news, such as it was.

Katie - I was a "Patriotic Draft Dodger", I joined the Air Force about a week before my draft notice came. :>)

Theron

THERON...Carl was a Lt.jg and had served on a troopship at the end of WWII, bringing the guys back from Japan. I guess maybe they thought he had done his part.

We all know that WWII ended in August, 1945. And we know that the Korean War began in June, 1950, less than five years later. And we also know that many WWII veterans also served in the Korean War.

No one can say that a particular generation begins at a specific year and ends at a specific year. Can we agree, then, that although the emphasis of this Discussion Group is WWII, that many Korean vets are also members of that "greatest" generation?

Robby

I most certainly would say so. They've been forgotten and ignored long enough.

Mal

Oh they are even by age really. For if born in 1930 they were 20 and ripe for the Korean War. Lots of people I know went as My two younger sisters husbands were both there and Hugh was flying those f6's the little fighter jets. His was named Sweet Rae. the other brother in law was a Marine and I am not sure where he was stationed but he saw action, was wounded sent to some place in Japan then to Hiwian Islands to recover. And many of the people in my Highschool class were there. But we we had reunions they didnt talk much about it and I for one have not read that much either though I have read many books on WW11. We didnt have even many movies did we? Faith

Forgotten is right, Theron! Let's look closer at this war - as Robby and Faith point out, a war fought five years after WWII which included many of the same brave men and women. I am sorry to say that I am ignorant of much of the war...did read Martin Russ's The Last Parallel a long time ago - in an attempt to figure out what the war between the North and South was all about. But how long it lasted and who fought there - how many - were the womens' service units involved...the WAVES and WACS...WASPS - were there many casualites...ground fighting ... I thought it was mostly air. Theron, can you help us out? Were there many Veterans of WWII involved? We're going to have to ask each Vet who comes in here about Korea!

Here's a link to B&N and some books on The Forgotten War

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I wonder what makes the difference between war memories of those who were on the side of the winners and those of the losers. I was fifteen (born in January 1930) when I got a military uniform, a rifle, twelve shot of ammunition and a bazooka. Together with four others we were trained to blow up a bridge near our town and to defend the bridge head. I did not want to be a hero, I was fearful, but I did not want to be a coward. And I was convinced that I had to fight for my country. We had been told about the war crimes committed by the Russians and the Allies, but never about crimes committed by Germans. I was lucky, the war ended when the allied troops had approached to less than ten miles from our town. Whenn looking back I am glad that I never had to shoot at anybody. What I remember most vividly is the horrors of the air raids.

Hansi, I'm not a veteran, but have listened to many who are ~ I see no difference between the memories of those who put their own lives on the line for their country. None of you guys would have done that for a cause you considered unworthy. I'm glad that 15 year old boy is here to tell about it. Would be interested in hearing more.. What year did you "enlist"(?)

I remember air raids too, but was never in any immediate danger (that I know of). How about you?

My name is James Rhodes and I use the title of "Psyho James" because I work as a psychotherapist in private practice. I'm a "baby boomer" whose parents had me kind of late in life. Both of them were born during WWI, grew up in the depression, etc. I just lost my dad (age 88)last month. He was a C.B. in Guadalcanal. He was one of those stoic, types that didn't talk much, so I didn't get to hear a lot of things about that time that I would have liked to have heard. I am obviously in grief, and connecting with older people from that generation is helping me work through my grief. I took my "little brother" (as in Big Brothers organization) to see "Pearl Harbor" today. It's such a great movie. Of course, it made me think of Dad and I broke down crying for about 15 minutes. My little brother said, "Well, it was kind of sad, but not that sad!" (ha!) I think I want to say to that generation that even though we may have had our differences with the 60's and all that, I thank you all for the sacrifices and the things you taught me such as sacrifice, delayed gratification, and a sense of duty to the community. Thanks