Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant ~ Export

What are our origins? Where are we now? Where are we headed?

Share your thoughts with us!

"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." (Voltaire)

Volume One ("Our Oriental Heritage")
"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "

"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." "

BABYLONIAN SCIENCE
Mathematics - Astronomy - The Calendar - Geography - Medicine

"Being merchants, the Babylonians were more likely to achieve successes in science than in art."
"Babylonian mathematics rested on a division of the circle into 360 degrees, and of the year into 360 days."

"Astronomy developed slowly out of the astrologic observation and charting of the stars."

"The almost secularized science found itself helpless before the demand of the people for supernatural diagnosis and magical cures."

In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals.

Dr. Durant worked steadily from 1927 to 1932 and this volume represents the third complete re-writing. "Our Oriental Heritage" deals first with the establishment of civilization and then takes up, in rich and fascinating detail, the colorful complex dramas of the Near East, India and her neighbors, and the Far East.

Every one of the thousands of facts has been checked and double-checked. Extra copies of the manuscript were made and sent to many specialists. It records the cultural history of Sumeria, Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria, Judea, and Persia to their conquest by Alexander and narrates the history of civilization in India from the Vedas to Mahatma Gandhi, in China from Confucius to Chiang Kai-shek, and in Japan from the earliest times to mid-1930s.

This volume, and the series of which it is a part, has been compared with the great work of the French encyclopedists of the eighteenth century. The Story of Civilization represents the most comprehensive attempt in our times to embrace the vast panorama of man's history and culture.
This, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Your Discussion Leader:

Robby Iadeluca

Links to all SOC Vol. I (Our Oriental Heritage) Discussions

Have a book you'd like to nominate for a future discussion?

Click on the Suggestion Box and post your suggestion.

Internet Citation Procedure

Robbie, I am one of your Lurkers! Just wanted to ask was the Suez Canal actually closed in that Crisis in 1956? I was a child so am pretty hazy, but I remember vividly the strained voices, the worried faces, and the screaming headlines at the time.There was a feeling that something terrible could happen if Britain, France and Israel actually invaded Egypt. As to the Egyptian artefacts in New South Wales, these rumours seem to have been kicking around since I was in High School. Nothing concrete ever seems to come out of it to my knowledge.Muslims actually came to Northern Australia in the 12th to 14th Century to catch Trepann(Sp?). They came down from the Celebes.

An Aus. writer met the aborigine tribes in the Kiberleys about the the time of the 1st. World War I think, and said that although they seemed very primitive some of them had ideas and beliefs that suggested other Civilizations. I read where some people were using this to support the Egyptian connection theory, but it was more likely to come I think from these Muslims intermarrying with the aborigines. The writer was Ion Idriess, quite well known in his time

Jan from Australia

The Suez canal was nationalised in 56, and I do not believe they closed it then since Egypt needed its revenues. The onset of the Six-Day War in Israel was because Egypt closed the Suez Canal to Israeli Ships, but it stayed open to the other countries. Bubble

Zwyram, you say:--"Interesting theories as to where and how and why settlements, agriculture, etc., started and spread. I know that's for another discussion sometime."

Actually, Zwyram, we did discuss that right at the beginning of this Volume One when Durant talked to us about pre-historic Man and the beginning of agriculture, settlements, etc. Perhaps you began to lurk after we had passed that. However, we are pleased that you are beginning to participate and am looking forward to your points of view.

Robby

Jan B:--Thank you for coming to visit us from Australia!! We will be looking forward to more of your participation.

I am giving you (and others here) a Link regarding that story. Please click onto ANCIENT EGYPT - LINK WITH AUSTRALIA and share with all of us here what you think.

Robby

Thank you, Ginny, for visiting us here. I guess you all know that Ginny is the Host of the Books and Literature folder and oversees many more book discussions that just this one.

Ginny mentions the traveling "Cleopatra exhibit." Does anyone have info on that?

Robby

Here is what Durant has to say about that Rosetta Stone that Ginny mentioned:--

"For many years, Egyptologists were unable to read the inscriptions surviving on the monuments. Typical of the scientific temperament was the patient devotion with which Champollion, one of these savants, applied himself to the decipherment of the hieroglyphics. He found at last an obelisk covered with such "sacred carvings" in Eqyptian, but bearing at the base a Greek inscription which indicated that the writing concerned Ptolemy and Cleopatra.

"Guessing that two hieroglyphics often repeated, with a rotal cartouche attached, were the names of these rulers, he made out tentatively (1822) eleven Egyptian letters. This was the first proof that Egypt had had an alphabet. Then he applied this alphabet to a great black stone slab that Napoleon's troops had stumbled upon near the Rosetta mouth of the Nile. This "Rosetta Stone" contained an inscription in three languages -- first in hieroglyphics, second in "demotic" - the popular script of the Egyptians -- and a third in Greek.

"With his knowledge of Greek, and the eleven letters made out from the obelisk, Champollion, after more than twenty years of labor, deciphered the whole inscription, discovered the entire Egyptian alphabet, and opened the way to the recovery of a lost world. It was one of the peaks in the history of history!""

Didn't we say at the start of this Discussion Group that we were all here together trying to solve a mystery story??!!

Robby

Why, thank you, Robby, it's a pleasure to read this super book and have something to SAY in this, our most popular discussion in the Books!

Here is the fabulous Cleopatra in Chicago article, which tells many of the facts of the exhibition. I did not realize that the Chicago stop is the only North American stop!

Here is the Cleopatra Exhibit notice from the British Museum. Of special interest in this exhibition is a bust believed to be of Caesarion, the son of Julius Caesar and Cleopatra. (I could have sworn the exhibit said they had several children).

Here is what was said about this bust (I was struck by the reference to the harbour of Alexandria which we just read about in the Durant):

British Museum curator Susan Walker told the Times newspaper: "This is a very important find, there is nothing more exciting than to display a sculpture of a leading personality of the time of Cleopatra that has literally just been taken out of Alexandria harbor and not been seen before."

ginny

Ginny:--Thank you so much for those Links. I read all of them, found them fascinating, and urge everyone here to click onto the Links. As we move toward the later Egyptian Dynasties, Durant will, of course, tell us even more about Cleopatra VII but this is whetting our appetite.

Robby

I just passed along the links to a colleague at the Library of Congress. Since the Cleopatra exhibit will only be in Chicago, it would be especially interesting for people in the metropolitan Washington DC area if Susan Walker could be invited to give a presentation at the LC.

The mystery of hieroglyphics has always been intriguing. Years ago we used to give out thousands of pamphlets on "How to Read Egyptian Hieroglyphics" to lecture audiences, visitors to the Egyptian Bureau and orientation sessions for tour groups. But we always ran short and were forever calling the printer for thousands of more copies! Now all this - and more - is available on the Net!

For those who would like a five-minute course on Hieroglyphics 101, click onto BASIC HIEROGLYPHICS.

Durant says:--

"In 1895, De Morgan revealed an almost continuous gradation of paleolithic cultures -- corresponding substantially with their succession in Europe -- in the flint hand-axes, harpoons, arrow-heads and hammers exhumed all along the Nile. Imperceptibly the paleolithic remains graduate into neolithic at depths indicating an age 10,000-4,000 B.C. The stone tools become more refined, and reach indeed a level of sharpness, finish and precision unequaled by any other neolithic culture known. Toward the end of the period, metal work enters in the form of vases, chisels and pins of copper, and ornaments of silver and gold."

As I look at the phrase which I underlined above, I wonder if, at that time, North Africa and Europe were "aware" of each other.

Robby

So what did the Rosetta Stone say?

Z - Yes, I have read some of Guns, Germs and Steel. Probably about a third of it. Husband had unexpected triple by-pass surgery at the time and I never got back to the book. It's around here somewhere still with a bookmark in it probably. I agree. It's a fascinating book, too. He claims people are like they are because of where they settled in the earliest days. Race/culture is meaningless, he says.

Linda

To answer Linda's question, here is the TEXT OF THE ROSETTA STONE.

Let it not be said that in this Discussion Group, we don't aim to please. You folks are forcing me to learn more than I had intended to learn!!

We all realize, of course, that while this Rosetta Stone helped us to decipher the hieroglyphics, it was written many centuries past the prehistoric times in Egypt we are now examining.

Robby

Those carvings are certainly Egyptian! Fascinating! Maybe somebody with sea knowledge would know if ships could be blown off course and end up here? I can't imagine they would come here deliberately, we wouldn't be on any map I imagine. The rumours I remember were mainly about something on the beach I think, something buried.Although there was talk about carvings, but I thought it was far up north. Memory is a fickle thing, would love to hear from any other Aussies about this.

Jan

Jan B:--When you say:--"Those carvings are certainly Egyptian! Fascinating!"-- I assume you are talking about the carvings in Australia. They do seem authenic, don't they?

Regarding your comment: "Would love to hear from any other Aussies about this", would you please bring this topic up in the Australia forum, ask their thoughts and perhaps they might join us here in Story of Civilization to give their opinions.

Robby

Carolyn - I clicked on "links to Ancient Egypt with Australia". Have you ever visited those sites?

Trevor - Hope your computer is running again. Perhaps you can tell us about Egyptian hieroglyphs in Autralia.

Ginny - Nice to have you here. I found your links extremely informative. I loved the bronze Statue of Cleopatra from the museum in St. Petersburg. Yes, movies and plays don't depict her as an intelligent ruler, but rather as a courtisan leaving us with quite a different picture of her in mind.

Robby - Thank you for those quotes, without them I would be totally lost in here.

Eloïse

Jan B:--When you say:--"Those carvings are certainly Egyptian! Fascinating!"-- I assume you are talking about the carvings in Australia. They do seem authenic, don't they?

Robby

This Link tells us of the SEAWORTHINESS OF ANCIENT EGYPTIANS

Durant continues:--

"In the year 1901, near the little town of Badari (half way betweeen Cairo and Karnak), bodies were excavated amid implements indicating a date approximating to forty centuries before Christ. In the intestines of these bodies, preserved through six millenniums by the dry heat of the sand, were husks of unconsumed barley. Since barley does not grow wild in Egypt, it is presumed that the Badarians had learned to cultivate cereals.

"From that early age the inhabitants of the Nile valley began the work of irrigation, cleared the jungles and the swamps, won the river from the crocodile and the hippopotamus, and slowly laid the groundwork of civilization."

Four thousand years before Christ was born. We are only two thousand years past that date.

Robby

"No one knows whence these early Egyptians came."

This is the GREEN quote which is in the Heading above. Durant tells us:--

"Learned guesses incline to the view that they were a cross between Nubian, Ethiopian and Libyan natives on one side and Semitic or Armenoid immigrants on the other. Even at that date there were no pure races on the earth.

"Probably the invaders or immigrants from Western Asia brought a higher culture with them, and their intermarrige with the vigorous native stocks provided that ethnic blend which is often the prelude to a new civilization. Slowly, from 4000 to 1000 B.C., these mingling groups became a people, and created the Egypt of history."

At this point Durant moves quickly on from Prehistoric Egypt to the "Old Kingdom" of Egypt after having made a few perfunctory remarks about Nubia (now known as Sudan), Ethiopa, and Libya. In other words, unless I have missed something, he completely ignores "Black" Africa which he defines as "vigorous native stocks." Let us not attribute the trait of racism to him. We need to remember that when he wrote "Our Oriental Heritage" in the 1930's, there was almost no archeological work being done in Africa except in the northern portion which was considered part of the "Near East."

As brilliant as Durant was, we have two advantages over him -- 1) Time - many archeological accomplishments since his day, and 2) Internet - we can gather information at the stroke of a key. Before moving on to the Egyptian "Old Kingdom", therefore, blithely assuming that "nothing" existed in the rest of Africa, let us, with everyone's permission here, take a side trip into the geographical area adjoining Ancient Egypt.

Please click onto CIVILIZATION SOUTH OF THE SAHARA and ask ourselves if we see "uncivilized barbarians" in caves subsisting on roots. Or has a door been opened to us helping us to better understand Ancient Egypt.

Robby

I seem to remember ruins of a stone city much further south in Africa... Zimbabwe? I will have to go look for that name. But we are moving so fast! Bubble

For thousands of years Egypt was "separated" from the various civilizations further south in Africa due to the six "cataracts" of the Nile. Want to make a thrilling voyage? Click onto FURY OF THE RAPIDS and take a trip with Charles Dudley Warner through those dangerous waters. Through his very descriptive words, experience for yourself why Egypt became more a part of the Near East than Africa proper.

Robby

So, taking a stab at putting this into my own words, Sudanese kings from the Kushite Empire (south of Egypt) conquered and ruled Egypt about 700 BC for about a generation or so, and after they were kicked out, continued to survive as a great empire (as advanced as Egypt) for another 1,000 years....until about 300 AD. So, today's Egypt has roots in an advanced African Kushite Empire (Sudan).

Betty

Betty:--I guess your hypothesis is as good as any of ours but one thing is becoming evident -- Ancient Egypt was NOT surrounded by a bunch of barbarians. Please note that the first great kingdom of Sudan at Kerma existed 2500 years BCE. And while, as Durant kept telling us, Greece was not the original civilized society and owed much to Egypt, so Egypt seems to owe much to other African societies as well as Asiatic societies.

Maybe the Near East was not the "cradle" of civilization. Maybe it housed the "infant just out of the cradle."

Robby

I was just summing up what I learned from the link you gave us, Robby.

The pyramids are extraordinary in their size. I wonder about the other great builders in ancient civiliztions. The Cretians too built those enormous walls of stones with no mortar, where stones fitted stones with an astonishing precision, They are very similar to preColombian building. Those people had no horses, never knew the wheel, how did they move huge stones of many tons?

Most ingenuity was shown in preservimg the memory of the dead. Ancient Egypt initiated this with the belief of a life after death, preserving the body and all its needs for a dayly life similar to the earthy one. Royal tombs at Ur, Tut Ankh Amon's schepulture had rich examples of the daily tools and utensils used routinely.

The first tombs were ovoids or circular in shape, as found at Mari in Syria.They are from the 3rd millenium BC. They are made from baked clay or ceramic and most have a lid. The body was laid on its side in a foetal position and cloth in woolen material. These ovoid tombs were not yet oriented.

The real tombs started as just a mass of stones or shells piled together. They are found in every culture. In Egypt they were called Mastaba and had near them a place for the offerings to the gods, later they became rooms or a number of rooms grouped together like in the Mastaba of Mereruka where there are 32 rooms. Mereruka looks like a real palace with reliefs and pictures showing the activities of the rich people buried there. These pictures probably served as a "passport" to the future life and insured the same rank of living. When the Egyptians started their doctrine of Sun God it became necessary to build higher to reach the sky high above. It was first done by putting 6 mastabas one on top of the other by Zoser. This monument looks like a huge staircase rising ttoward the sky. It has a height of about 60 meters.

Under Snefru they started building smooth pyramids, the most famous of course are those at Giza. The symbolism stayed the same even if the shape changed. The Egyptians believed that the sun rays were like as many chains of triangles unity the souls of the king to the sun, the first triangles being the sides of the pyramids.

"The Egyptian", by Mika aWaltari is a must read for anyone interested in Egypt. I read it years ago, and want to re-read it. I think it was his only best seller.

Pat Hyne

Here is FURTHER INFORMATION which points to the thought that there was an African beginning to the founders of the first Egyptian Dynasty. Note the term "Mediterranean myth."

Light is gradually being shown on what was known as "The Dark Continent" for years because of lack of knowledge.

What are your reactions to these Links?

Robby

Kushite, from a Hebrew root, means the Black People. And it is very clear that part of the Egyptian heritage is from the black people. There are very different races there, an amalgam of people, from dark skinned to fair with blue eyes. Bubble

Good to see you here, Tucson Pat!! I remember that book, "The Egyptian" which I, also, read years ago. But I agree that it is a book worth re-reading or for the first time.

Robby

Robby - Perhaps Durant is searching for the beginning of civilization south of Egypt towards where LUCY was found, but she had not been discovered yet when he wrote S of C. Interesting.

Sudan buried their kings and queens in pyramids also as I saw in the link 'Civilizations South of the Sahara' ......Eloïse

Thanks for all that good info, Bubble. Here is a photo of the STAIRCASE TO THE SKY.

Menes.... Kush and Ethiopia, all this rises a question in my mind. How would this be dated as in Biblical time? Would menes parallel King Salomon time? Was Joseph's pharaon Ramses II?
Bubble

Eloise brings up the subject of "Lucy" so that, of course, leads us to Ethiopia, a civilization on the upper regions of the Nile and near Egypt. The Pharaohs of Egypt traded with Ethiopia for frankincense and myrrh. Clicking onto ETHIOPIA will tell us more about that very ancient civilization.

Robby

Thanks to Jane and Marjorie and other wonderful volunteer technical experts here on Senior Net, those of you who want to refer back to much earlier postings can do so and newcomers here can read our earlier conversations about previous civilizations.

You will note just below my name in the Heading above the phrase, "Links to past SofC discussions." We have just completed the first "page" of approx 1000 postings and this has been labeled Part 1. If you click onto the Main Link above, it will take you to a Link labeled Part 1 and you can read all the postings in that link. As we continue through this volume, we will have Part 2, Part 3, etc.

In this way, absolutely none of the vital information and pertinent postings will be lost. On behalf of all of you, I thank the "tech wizards" for furthering the cause of Civilization!

Robby

Thank you, Robby, for the text of the Rosetta Stone. sounds like the origin of our modern political gobbledygook.

the Australian/Egypt thing looked very interesting until I linked to the gal's home page and that looked pretty far out for my taste. So, I will be on the fence about that theory.

Linda

"The text of the Rosetta Stone sounds like the origin of our modern political gobbledygook."

As we continue "The Story of Civilization," are anyone of us beginning to get the idea that "there is nothing new under the sun?"

If not, where is the progress?

Robby

Just 2-3 more Links to Africa and then we'll return to Durant's Ancient Egypt -- however, with perhaps a bit more knowledge that will help us to better understand what was going on at that time. Click HERE to learn one of the reasons why we don't know that much about the Africa south of Egypt. (When you get there, be sure to click onto "continue.")

Robby

Robby, your links have been fabulous! The translation of the Rosetta Stone! Amazing!! No wonder it took the poor man 20 years, almost takes that long to read it in English! All that from those strange markings, amazing.

And your link to the Sudan, as you go deeper and deeper into those links, pottery from 3,000 BC, it's amazing, ax heads, Still making discoveries in 2000 , (desert edge behind Arduan village. Comparable 'Pre-Kerma' pottery recently discovered at Kerma has been dated to around 3000BC.) and say it's not half excavated, amazing to view.

I thougt RamesesII was a couple of thousand years BC, am I wrong? Maybe 1500, I know he was Seti's son. Rameses II was probably the Pharoah of Moses's time as I recall in seeing HIS exhibition which toured America some time ago.

Eloise, yes and the exhibit contains some fairly pornographic things and depictions of Cleopatra as well, doubtless brought on by Augustus Caesar's disdain of her and the subesquent public opinion of the Romans. They're pretty bad, actually.

That was ONE Roman her wiles did not work on.

You ask about nothing new under the sun, Robby, I was struck by two things in Durant's book, his insistence that the Caesars were "new" by comparison to the more ancient structure (imagine that), and that the pyramids were crass monuments to, if I understood him correctly, pride. I would KILL to see one of those crass things.

Thomas Hoving, who met with us in NYC in our first Books Gathering, is featured in a television documentary recently aired about the Curse of Tut's Tomb (he says there wasn't one)...and then the overlay goes on to say that it's possible that there was a mold on the walls of the tomb which caused a virus, which subsequently killed several on the expedition.

On "newness," Agatha Christie was married to a very famous and well respected archaeologist, Max Mallowan and she said it was quite nice because the older she got the more interesting she was to him. hahahaha She also described his intense disappointment in finding Roman or Greek artifacts, much too "new" for him!

It's not widely known but Agatha Christie made some archaeological discoveries herself in Egypt and...jeepers Assyria I think and these are in the British Museum.

Her book Come, Tell Me How You Live, is an autobiographical account of her adventures in the field. It's marvelous.

Good discussion here where you can learn so much in such a congenial atmosphere.

ginny

My observation about the drying up of the Nile was taken from my research. The material I got this comment from was a textbook called Ancient Civilizations written by Christopher Scarre of the McDonald Institute for Archeological Research at Cambridge University and Co authored by Brian M Fagan of the University of California. The information came from ancient papyruses. I am enjoying this particular book very much as it delves very much into the day to day lives of the ancient Egyptians. It is certainly not a dry book. It covers much of the ground we will be covering in this discussion and I look forward to being able to contribute much more than I have been able to in the past.

Carolyn

Of course we are congenial, Ginny. Drop by any time and have a cup of Egyptian tea.

Speaking of pornography, click onto QUEEN OF SHEBA and get the real scoop on her "liaison"(?) with King Solomon. This is getting a bit ahead of ourselves because we haven't yet started to read about Judea, but someone mentioned the Queen of Sheba and she did come from Ethiopia.

Robby

Just one more link to "Africa" and then we will be ready to return to Durant. The Nile River was the very long continuous thread that ran through Egypt (Main Nile), through present-day Sudan (White Nile) and is formed by the Blue Nile which rises as a sping in Ethiopia seven thousand feet above sea level.

Ten countries are involved. Click onto NILE RIVER BASIN to see which countries these are.

Robby

I now see the Nile near Lake Kivu, in Congo. I never realized it was there. I am learning. Bubble

Lalibela, Axum, Gondar, all this is contemporary history for me.
We have had a huge wave of immigrants from Ethiopia a few years ago. Most came from Gondar and came walking enormous distances through desertic regions, with just the clothes they wore, their small children in their arms, fleeing the draft and religious persecution. They reached Addis Abeba and were air lifted to Israel. I am sure you all saw those pictures on TV.

From them I have heard the marvels of those carvings in the rocks, I have seen their hand-enlumined scrolls, their Bibles written in Ge'ez, their fantastic embroidery as done probably in Biblical times. They really believe they descend from the ancient Jews and that they are one of the lost tribes of Israel that fled after the destruction of the temple.

It is easy to believe them when you have seen how, coming almost from a no-electricity, no running water and other amenities life to meet here scholars and rabbis, they hold themselves proudly in discussing the holy text and commenting the Old Testament. They know all the traditions, the prayers, the celebrations but - up to the destruction of the temple. What was added after, they are ignorant of. They never heard of the Hanukkah feast for example, which came about during the Roman occupation. Is that not extraordinary? Our lost brothers.

Bubble

Bubble:--As you live in Israel, the story of the Jewish people in Ethiopia must have been extremely interesting to you. I remember that very well on TV.

And are you telling me that although you were born in the Congo, you did not know about the Nile River basin there? (I didn't know it either but then I have an excuse.)

Robby

Back to Durant (Remember, this is the "old" kingdom - see the GREEN quotes):--

"The population along the river was divided into "nomes," in each of which the inhabitants were essentially of one stock, acknowledged the same totem, obeyed the same chief, and worshipped the same gods by the same rites. Throughout the history of ancient Egypt these nomes persisted, their "nomarcs" or rulers having more or less power and autonomy according to the weakness or strength of the reigning Pharaoh. The growth of trade and the rising costliness of war forced the nomes to organize themselves into two kingdoms -- one in the south, one in the north -- a division probably reflecting the conflict between African natives and Asiatic immigrants."

I find this last sentence especially relevant considering the African "research" we have been doing today. Racism? What do you folks think?

Robby

This lay in the Nile Valley itself, the nile which flows into African countries was probably the base of the civilizations there. There is much mention of Nubians in all old writings so these African nations would have traded with other countries along the Nile. It is interesting that we as Christians think of our beginnings as in the east and archeologists speak of African man. Can not both of these theories be one and the same if as Bubbles has said the Ethiopian Jews knew so much biblical history which ended so abruptly as they obviously migrated. I find it all very fascinating as I learn more.

Carolyn

Carolyn:--A most interesting thought -- The roots of almost all civilizations in Africa (including Egyptian) lay in the Nile River Basin. And then, Carolyn, if I may add on to that thought -- take a look at this MAP OF THE MIDDLE EAST and notice that the African nations we have been talking about -- Egypt, Sudan, Ethiopia -- are also along the Red Sea, thereby allowing them transportation by water.

Does anyone see similar situations in the settling of the lands in which we live - where water, fresh or salt, played a part?

Robby

It looks as though we have left Sumeria far behind in the current postings, however, I want to say something about our inheritance from this early civilization. In building and in architecture the "arch" formation comes to us from Sumeria via Greece and Rome.Private houses in Ur in 2000 BCE sported doorways in arched brick that were constructed in the true form (using keystones). Also there is an arched drain at Nippur that dates to about 3000 BCE. The arch was unknown in Europe until the conquests of Alexander brought it to the attention of Greek architects. Rome expanded the idea greatly and Richardson here in the U.S. took advantage of that Arch called Romanesque to give us his style in architecture which we call Richardsonian. Apart from these advances in architecture,there is, in the world of abstract ideas, much we owe the Sumerians.The stories of creation and the Flood come to us through the Hebrew people. The semites adopted, ready made, these stories which today affect Christian beliefs as well as those of the Jews and possibly even those of Islam. The laws of Moses also were largely based on Sumerian codes. I marvel that at the turn of this past century the scientific community knew nothing of Sumeria and today, through archeology we are able to put together a credible history of a civilization which lasted close to 1500 years. Sumerians were rarely in political power in the "land between the rivers" during this time but they were always dominant in the culture.

Back in post someone spoke about etnic cleansing in East Germany. I am unaware of that event and would like to know more about the subject. I would appreciate it if you would expand on it a little. which

Justin:--Thank you very much for your posting. Not only for the information you shared but for reminding us that history is one continuous stream and that it is always appropos to "halt us in our tracks" and call to our attention the effect of earlier civilizations on later ones.
At the moment we are enamored of Ancient Egypt but, as you indicate, Sumeria long before that era gave us the "arch" formation - still in use, dealt in the world of abstract ideas, and pointed toward the Law of Moses.
Your posting about "our inheritance" is appreciated.
Robby

Vastly interesting you all are from all corners of the world. Thanks.

As are you, Eloise, our good Canadian friend!

BUBBLE - your earlier comments about the Ethiopian Jews were interesting to me, as I have worked with many of the same community who immigrated to the metropolitan Washington DC area. Several former colleagues of mine at the University of Maryland were from this community and they have contributed enormously to my better understanding of the ancient history of their homeland. We also speak togethere of another community - the Jews of Southern Iraq, who like their Ethiopian brethren were extremely knowledgeable about their history up to a certain point. It is unusual for American Jews, particularly, to interact with people of this background and at times difficult for our communities to understanda and accept that the Ethiopian and Iraqi can "really" be Jewish. But when one thinks of the dispersal of the Tribes, it makes more sense and is easier to understand.

A comment on the role of sub-Sahara populations on Egypt: Among contemporary Egyptians of many backgrounds there is an easier acceptance of the Black Africans in their history than that felt among Westerners studying Egyptian history. From senior Statesmen (like former UN Secretary General Butrous Ghalli and the late President Anwar Sudat, whose mother was from Sudan) to students, businessmen and the average vendor in the bazaar, the participation of Black Africans and their importance to the overall Egyptian culture is understood. I've heard prominent Egyptian speak of the "glories of the South African Kingdoms" and their "contributions to the Pharonic period" in Egypt; the role model that the southern African leaders provided in terms of organization, administation, trade, etc. has also been a common topic and one of easy acceptance.

Thanks Robby.

When Christopher Columbus discovered America he crossed the Atlantic on 3 small vessels. After that, Jacques Cartier came from France and established a French colony they called 'Nouvelle France'. England faught a tiny battle on the Plains of Abraham, now part of Quebec City and took this poorly defended colony away from the French. Since the King of France didn't know the vastness of the colony he had acquired he didn't think it necessary to send troups to defend what he called 'quelques arpents de neige' or 'a few acres of snow'.

English ships brought the English language and civilization to North America, this language became the official language of that immense continent and perhaps because of a unifying language, it became the most powerful country in the world.

The power of water.

Eloïse

After the death of Rameses 3 in 1163 BC Egypt entered a period of slow decline. There were setbacks in Asia and there was a retreat from Nubia.

The Egyptian system had relied on strong autocratic Pharoahs and a very bureaucratic system. The next kings were weak and society began to break down. The reverence for the Pharoahs waned and even the tombs of their former God-Kings were broken into by bands of robbers for the treasures they contained.

Egypt fell apart into its constituent parts. Then military leaders eventually seized control of Thebes and the priesthood of Amun and a dynasty of Merchants took control of the Delta. With the rise of the kings of Industry the Empire disappeared into history and the Nile became part of a much wider "Near Eastern World"

Carolyn

I read recently, somewhere, that the thirty odd dams built on the Tigris and the Euphrates have caused the ancient marshes in Southern Iraq to dry up. This caused people who have lived in the marshes for a thousand years to evacuate the land.Could these be the Iraqui Jews we have ben talking about. This marsh area is described in the history of Sumeria as well. Any clues out there.

JUSTIN - during the past deacde, particularly after the Gulf War, Sadaam Hussein purposely began draining the marshes of southern Iraq. The communities of Iraqi Jews, who had been there since ancient times, were often "forcibly" relocated to other parts of the country (where they were extremely unhappy)or immigrated. I worked with those communities during postings in the region and again with individuals when some families immigrated to the USA. These folks are fascinating and the closest thing I've ever come to face-to-face conversations with biblical people!

So I guessed right. They were the Iraqi Jews who were forced out of the Marshes.Saddam must have closed the portals on the dams to do that.But what I don't understand is why he did it. Is it just a hate crime or is there more to it. I remember he went after the shiites in the north. Is he attempting to purify the country by restricting it to Sunni Muslims? Your conversations with the Iraqi Jews must have been enormously satisfying. How unusual it is to think there is a group of people in the world who are jews whose awareness of old testament writing ends with the second temple. What other cultural characteristics did they exhibit? Were their life practices primitive? What a fascinating experience you must have had in dealing with them. I can't imagine their reaction on coming to the U.S. or Israel.

Durant continues:--

"The dangerous accentuation of geographic and ethnic differences was resolved for a time when Menes, a half-legendry figure, brought the "Two Lands" under his united power, promulgated a body of laws given him by the god Thoth, established the FIRST HISTORIC DYNASTY, built a new capital at Memphis, "taught the people" (in the words of an ancient Greek historian) "to use tables and couches, and introduced luxury and an extravagant manner of life."

So now it appears that "civilization" is taking over. Tables. Couches, Body of laws. Temporary resolving of differences between the African natives and the Asiatic immigrants. But also luxury and an extravagant manner of life.

This cycle back and forth between luxurious peace and hardships of war occurred in Sumeria (if I remember correctly). In which period of time do you believe that civilizations are stronger - when they are at war or when they are at peace? Can we apply that to our present-day societies?

Robby

We are not discussing Afghanistan in this forum (there are other discussion groups in Senior Net that are doing that) but this ARTICLE published just this morning is an excellent example of how some humans act when there are religious differences and ethnic differences. The previous posting tells how Menes in Ancient Egypt resolved such conflicts. Have we learned anything from him or other ancient figures?

Robby

Robby, I certainly was not aware of the NIle so near us in Congo. It makes me wonder when the sources were discovered and if they were known in late 40s or early 50s when I learned geography at school?

My mother, born in Cairo, always told me of picnics and felucca sailing with her Alliance Francaise Class. She never mentionned it would have its beginning so near - relatively - from where we lived. Bubble

Any reaction to the quote above which begins "Civilization begins...?"

Robby

Durant says:--"The first real person in known history is not a conqueror or a king but an artist and a scientist -- Imhotep, physician, architect and chief adviser of King Zoser (3150 B.C.). He did so much for Egyptian medicine that later generations worshiped him as a god of knowledge, author of their sciences and their arts, and at the same time he appears to have founded the school of architecture which provided the next dynasty with the first great builders in history. It was he who planned the oldest Egyptian structure extant -- the Step-Pyramid of Sakkarah (the stepped structure pictured in an earlier posting).

"In these old remains at Sakkarah, we find fluted shafts as fair as any that Greece would build and richly colored glazed earthenware rivaling the products of medieval Italy."

Again Durant points out that what we thought were originals (Greek architecture, Italian art) were first created by Ancient Egypt. Another example of our "oriental heritage."

Robby

Mahlia.
Jewish Irakians are well known here for their integrity and hard work. We even had two in the last governement, one now I think. Many came to Israel illegally since it was not permitted to leave Bagdad. I personnally have known a family with eight children coming by foot through mountains and villages, walking at night and hiding in day time. A real Odyssey.
You might be interested in the book "The Breath of the East (Le souffle du Levant) by the Minister M. Hillel himself from Bagdad, who helped organise the illegal immigration from Irak.

I have found that in Egypt there is no color discrimination, I suppose because from early start they were of so mixed origins/

Justin - the Ethiopians who came here lived exactly as prescribed in the Bible. Many lived in very primitive ways, but they all kept the hygiene rules, the food prescriptions to a dot. They knew all the blessings, every single law was respected, especially those pertaining to the family life.

Bubble

We will be discussing those rules and laws in detail when Durant gets to Judea. Another fascinating part of history.

Robby

Thank you, Robby, for the NYTimes article. Michener calls Afghanistan "one of the world's great cauldrons."

Many of the countries we are learning about now have histories of evolving and then de-volving and evolving again. Civilization doesn't seem to be a process - it's more a building up and falling down. Must have something to do with man's inadequacies - human and yet inhumane.

Linda

"Evolving and then de-volving and evolving again. Civilization doesn't seem to be a process - it's more a building up and falling down."

Linda, I am beginning to think that way myself. I suppose the question to ask ourselves is -- is Civilization two steps forward and one step backwards? Or aren't we making any progress? What do the rest of you think?

Robby

Jan B,

To answer your question in posting #1 of this debate, the Suez Canal was closed in the 1956 war. Nasser sank ships at both ends of the canal and about 12 vessels were trapped in the canal for many years. I had never heard of the Australian/ Egyptian connection, but then I was not educated in Australia. I must admit that there is a similarity in the carvings and they do not look like Aboriginal rock drawings.

I would have thought that in looking for a pre white settlement history, any connection would be well publicised.

Happy Chanukah!

Nice to hear from you, Peter. I had forgotten about Nasser sinking those ships until you just reminded us. It appears that Egypt is just as important to the current-day world as it was in ancient times. Good for the rest of us to remember that.
Robby

Durant continues:--"We do not know what concourse of circumstance made the FOURTH DYNASTY the most important in Egyptian history before the Eighteenth. Perhaps it was the lucrative mining operations in the last reign of the THIRD. Perhaps the ascendancy of Egyptian merchants in Mediterranean trade.

"The Pharaoh believed, like any commoner among his people, that every living body was inhabited by a double, or ka (see GREEN quote above), which need not die with the breath. That the ka would survive all the more completely if the flesh were preserved against hunger, violence and decay. The Pyramid, by its height, its form and its position, sought stability as a means to deathlessness. It was to have permanence and strength.">

We look at our beliefs today. We look at our cemeteries. Can we say we have an "oriental heritage?"

Robby

Robby, you mention ka and the need to preserve the outer shell, here's a super article based on new facts about the "secret ingredients" used in mummification . Scroll down, it's really good.

While we were in Chicago last year for the Second Annual Books Gathering some of us went to the Field Museum there (which is where the new Cleopatra Exhibit is as well as the Dinosaur called "Sue,") and I was shocked to learn that they had mummy cases they had not ever opened! They have so many mummies and such new techniques now there is no need!

Amazing, the whole subject is amazing. Mummies of cats, etc.

ginny

ginny

Thank you (I guess!)for that Link giving a detailed explanation of mummification. There are those here who will find that most enlightening and those who would just as soon not know. But that, in itself, indicates the differences in various civilizations. We probably do things which the Ancient Egyptians would find "gross."

Note the quote above which begins "So well..."

Robby

"Civilization, like life, destroys what it has perfected."

- - - Will Durant

In making the above remark, Durant was referring to the "growth of comforts and luxuries, the progress of manners and morals that had made men lovers of peace and haters of war." He added: "Suddenly a new figure appeared, usurped the throne, and put an end to the pyramid-builders' dynasty."

Any analogies in today's world?

Robby

SEA BUBBLE - thanks for the reference to Hillel's work. I'm familair with it. Two others which I have been re-reading alongside Durant's work are Nelson De Mille's By the Rivers of Babylon and Norman Stillman's The Jews of Arab Lands. The former includes fascinating commentary about the Iraqi Jews of the Southern Marshes. The latter includes interesting comments about the David Sassoon family of Baghdad, which also has branches in China.

Durant says:--"Ancient civilizations were little isles in a sea of barbarism."

Is that also true of modern-day civilizations?

Robby

ROBBY - can you think of any region of the world where some aspect of barbarism does not exist today?

No Mahlia I cannot. A shooting is barbarism. Assault and battery is Barbarism. Child Abuse is barbarism. I could go on and on. I also think the death penalty is barbaric. Even in so called civilized countries barbarism is alive and well.

Carolyn

Contemporary burial methods vary. Some reduce the body to ashes and bury or store that. Others strew ashes to the winds. Another group believes in a soul that leaves the body but has immortality. This belief stems from platonic sources, I think, and in that sense, it is part of our oriental heritage. I suppose the concept of a soul could be traced to the Ka but it appears in Plato with a slightly different spin on it. Plato talks about an oversoul that need not be fed or entertained. I think ther contemporary idea of a soul is something with sustaining life that will be called to judgement one day. I am willing to talk about this topic but I must admit that my religious background is sketchy. So I will enjoy reading the comments of others on this topic. Mahlia: Thanks for the reference to Stillman's work. I may try Hillel as well. The name makes me think of Reb Hillel.

"Ancient civilisations were little islands in a sea of barbarism". I think that is fair comment. The little islands have got bigger with the progress of time and our knowledge of them had grown, thanks to modern methods of communication. With that knowledge has come the realisation of how big that sea of barbarism is.

"The conquerors grew fat and lost control". That is the story of the spread of civilisation. If one reads recorded history, that is most certainly the case and the nearer one gets to modern times the quicker the process. The great "modern" european empires have all risen and fallen in the last 500 years. The U.S. empire, if empire is the right word for it's economic domination, is approx 100 years old. What will that lifespan be?

Mahlia,
Have you read "The Book of Abraham" by Marek Halter? It has a sequel "The Sons of Abraham" but that is far away from what we are discussing here. I found it fascinating, in the description of how people lived.

The same is true for "The Source", by Michener, which is the story of a special place from Stone Age to now. It is based on Megiddo of course. Bubble

We move on from what is known as the "Old Kingdom" to the "Middle Kingdom" (see appropriate GREEN quotes above.

"One of these early Pharaohs, Pepi II, ruled Egypt for ninety-four years (2738-2644 B.C.) - the longest reign in history. When he died, anarchy and dissolution ensued, the Pharaohs lost control, and feudal barons ruled the nomes independently. This alternation between centralized and decentralized power is one of the cyclical rhythms of history, as if men tired alternately of immoderate liberty and excessive order."

As I read this, I cannot help but think of the various changes in American Presidencies and the constant "battle" between Federal control and States' Rights.

Am I stretching it here? Is the governor of a state a "feudal baron?" Durant calls this alternation a cyclical rhythm of "history," not just of Ancient Egypt.

Robby

America is still a very young empire. When it was in its infancy, a couple of centuries ago, immigrants came already equipped with a strong desire for a democracy. The oceans east and west and the sparsely populated population north and south provided the safety and protection that this infant democracy needed in order to develop to its highest potential while remaining secure within its borders. The success of American democracy proves that the vision the founding fathers had was accurate.

With all its faults, Americans want their country to remain the way it was set up and developed because it seems that there is no stopping the increase to the level of their standard of living along with the power it has acquired through intelligent business, technology and military accomplishments. The American empire might be reaching its summit, because of the envy it provokes in the rest of the world, some to imitate it, some to try to destroy it.

America in the future will have to use force with the violence it has demonstrated recently in Afghanistan in quickly destroying Taliban stronghold and showing the world who they would have to contend with should they even think of attacking America.

I am convinced that this empire also will crumble one day because inasmuch as humans try to change, they remain the same since the beginning of time.

Eloïse

"America in the future will have to use force with the violence it has demonstrated recently in Afghanistan in quickly destroying Taliban stronghold and showing the world who they would have to contend with should they even think of attacking America."

This is a powerful statement, not that I ncessarily disagree with it. Am I alone, as we accompany Durant in this trip through history, in coming to the conclusion that the "nice" civilization is the one that crumbles?

Robby

"After a Dark Ages of four chaotic centures a strong-wlled 'Charlemagne' arose, set things SEVERELY in order, changed the capital from memphis to Thebes, and under the title of Amenemhet I inaugurated that TWELFTH DYNASTY during which all the arts, excepting perhaps architecture, reached A HEIGHT OF EXCELLENCE NEVER EQUALED IN KNOWN EGYPT BEFORE OR AGAIN.

Four hundred years of chaos -- longer than the existence of America. Then in comes someone who says, in effect: "OK guys! This is it! This is the way we are going to do things from now on." And lo and behold "excellence never equaled before or since."

Please excuse the baseball analogy, but to quote the Brooklyn Dodgers' Leo Durocher: "Nice guys finish last."

True?

Eloise, when you say "America" are you referring to the United States? The United States is not an empire. At least not in the way that Great Britain was, for example. Perhaps I have misunderstood your use of the word "empire".

Early settlers of this country did not come here seeking democracy. Early settlers here came to find religious freedom, not freedom from the monarchy to which they belonged when they left it and stayed after they settled here.

Those who came on the Mayflower and their descendants were and remained subjects of the King of England and citizens of England until taxation without representation became intolerable, and some of the colonists rebelled. This started the American Revolution 100 odd years later than the landing at Plymouth Rock.

Great Britain lost much of its physical empire, but has remained a very strong force in the world. A very, very large number of corporations and businesses here in the States are owned by Great Britain and are controlled by British industrialists.

What about Canada? Martin Frobisher, an English explorer, tried to find the Northwest passage in 1576. He established the first North American settlement at what is now Baffin Island. Was Frobisher seeking democracy, or was his aim to expand the British Empire?

Mal

Robby:

Nice guys who are strong and tough don't finish last.

Mal

Robby: virtue is its own reward?

ginny

Malryn - When I mentioned America, I think of North America because Canada and Maxico are but appendices of the US and just tag along with whatever the US decides in all aspects of economic, technology defense and culture. We are too weak to argue with you. It is a general term for the purpose of showing that America is MIGHTY. The new enlarged EEC in Europe might make inroads in their race for supremacy, but they need 10 years to catch up with America provided that use English, like the US did, to achieve complete unity within their members. I don't know if that is possible, they don't have the same geography as America and each one of their culture is deeply inbred.

England is but a shadow of what it used to be and tries to flex its muscles now and then, but who knows, who will topple America, someone will because when we become too 'properous we lose control'.

Post 89 and 90, Yes, Yes.

Eloïse

Two posts said:"......Great Britain lost much of its physical empire, but has remained a very strong force in the world......."

and:"....England is but a shadow of what it used to be and tries to flex its muscles now and then...."

Without the USA support, England would have been "sunk" in either of the last two wars. I have to agree with the second statement above.

Well, I'm glad you think the U.S. did something right.

My view of England is much affected by what I see in the Research Triangle Park here in my area in NC. For example, Glaxo-Smith-Kline is owned by England and is one of the biggest pharmaceutical companies in the world. GSK has laboratories and offices at the RTP, as do other large English corporations.

Mal

OK Mal, and who owns England:>)

As I said awhile ago, I'm out of my league. I'm out of here.

Mal

OK Mr. Paul who owns any country? It is a very odd question in a way but I guess it also is an outmoded concept that one geographical area that is a political entity could "own" another political entity. Our language does not lend itself well to this discussion.Faith

I am hearing a lot of comments about England and North America, etc. but, unless I missed something, I am not hearing any views (pro or con), based upon the experience of the Egyptian Dynasties, whether "nice guys" finish last or not. Pepi II reigned peacefully for 94 years and left a weak government where the nomes took over. Chaos existed for 400 years.

Amenemhet I took over with a firm hand, centralized the government, and the result was a height of excellence never before equaled. There was then a conspiracy by the "Talleyrands and Fouches" whom he had raised to office and he put that down with a mighty hand.

Here is the advice he left to his son:--

Hearken to that which I say to thee,
That thou mayest be king of the earth
That thou mayest increase good.
Harden thyself against all subordinates --
The people give heed to him who terrorizes them.
Approach them not alone.
Fill not thy heart with a brother,
Know not a friend . . . .
When thou sleepest, guard for thyself thine own heart;
For a man hath no friend in the day of evil.

Who "mayest increase good?" The "nice" guy or the stern ruler?

Robby

Mal - Don't go love. I am not criticizing, just observing.

As someone whose life is pretty soft, I am afraid to 'grow fat and prosperous and loose control'.....Eloïse

I must admit that I don't understand when one talks in broad, simplistic, generalities about complex topics. In what sense does the U.S. "own" any other country and what does "empire" mean when used to describe U.S. influence in the world? But Robbie is right. We are not staying on the subject. When Durant says that the greatest Egyptian art works were developed in the twelth dynasty he is over looking the work of the eighteenth which in my view was clearly superior. The unstylized scenes of life in the Amarna period are far more pleasant to view and much more expressive of reality than the regulated forms of the twelth dynasty.

OK I am done!!! Three days but it is fini! Every post and every link except many of yours Robby - I never can remember my New York Times password and they keep e-mailing me to cut it out since they have me with 3 passwords.

I was so glad to see you post the link, that if you browsed, was the travel diary of Professor Gates I believe from Yale, sharing his personal feelings and observations of his journeys through Africa. His experience opened his eyes to so many myths about his own culture - amazing.

About 6 years ago I took a wonderful two week hiking trip with 7 others into the mountains of Mexico. We visited villages where the homes were still dirt floors and thatched roofs and we even found some folks living in homes built into the caves that had been there for generations. They're only trip out was upon marriage going to a town. There is where I learned from the gentleman that lived in the area that if you hear chickens you are near running water (a creek or stream or river, yes it looks like civilizations begin near running water) because everyone is dependent on water. Another interesting aha was seeing the small piles of stones and rocks in pattern piles along the dirt roads, left as messages to friend or family that would pass. This is an area with no electricity, phone and a small fire burning all them time in the corner that wood added would be light or cooking warmth. Their lives depended on the annual crop of corn. Weather affecting a poor crop, someone in the family dies that winter. I could go on but it gave me a clue to how we lived before we gathered in towns.

One other anecdote - everyone we met wanted us to take their photo - one of the gentleman with us was known to hike the area regularly and would bring back the only photo folks had of family members. In fact one man came to us in tears. He had received his photo the summer before of his father who had died and this was his only rememberance - but the story - up out of high grass path comes this middle-aged hard looking gentleman on horseback with pistols on each hip all dressed in black with silver here and there. This was not an area where the folks had matching clothes much less silver. And where we saw a rifle not any pistols. He, in spanish, asks us sharply to wait right there, circles his horse and disappears. In less than 5 minutes he comes out of the high grass again with a small child not yet able to walk riding just behind the horn of his saddle. His grandson and would we take his picture with his grandson - you never saw camaras clicking so fast with the relief of our smiling faces.

Didn't I see a PBS show that showed DNA from the Ethiopian Jews having matched the priestly tribe that fled to the area of Irag and Iran?

It is possible for the nice guy to be a stern ruler, isn't it? I am not so sure that these two things are mutually exclusive. And, isn't evil a subjective premise? I am glad that my father was not so jaded by this world. Strength is not always in sterness and control. What a lonely life for the son, if he listened to the father. All of us need friends and people we can turn to and count on in times of struggle and chaos. I believe that is why we became civilized.

Good to have you here, Cupcak! You say:--"It is possible for the nice guy to be a stern ruler, isn't it? I am not so sure that these two things are mutually exclusive."

Durant says:--"Amenemhet I, this stern ruler who seems to us so human across four thousand years, established a system of administration that held for five hundred years. Wealth grew again, and then art."

We all cry for peace, especially at this time of the year. But wealth and art grew under a stern ruler. Possibly, just possibly, is it "struggle and chaos" (as Cupcak phrases it) that moves us forward to civilization? That peace equals apathy?

Senusret I repelled Nubian invaders but he also built a great canal from the Nile to the Red Sea.

Thirteen years after the death of Amenemhet III who built canals and irrigation, Egypt was plunged into disorder by a dispute among rival claimants to the throne, and the Middle Kingdom ended in two centuries of turmoil and disruption.

Is it possible that war is one of the engines driving us to civilization?

Robby

"You can't say civilization don't advance -- for every war they kill you a new way."

Will Rogers

War has a tendency encourage invention. Improvement becomes essential to victory. One can readily compare the gains made in the U.S. between the world wars and those made during and immediately after World War 11.Technological change was very rapid in the aftermath of the war.While focus on munitions is essential during a war, technological gains are made and when the war ends these gains are exploited for peaceful ends. In that sense War advances civilization in it's aftermath.

"Is it possible that war is one of the engines driving us to civilization?"

Seems to me it leads us away as we become more barbaric trying to solve things with violence.

And, as we have a throbbing in our insides that we may be losing civilization as we know it, it may be natural for us to make comparisons to today's world. Here we are studying civilization while we are teetering on the edge of losing it all.

Linda -

Mal and Justin, don't be so sensitive. My little four word question wasn't meant to be taken that seriously. I'll be more careful in the future.

Linda, you say:--"Here we are studying civilization while we are teetering on the edge of losing it all."

Would you mind expanding on that a bit, please?

Robby

Once someone goes nuclear in this war, others could retaliate and it would be the end of civilization and maybe the entire planet.

Linda - going to bed. Maybe I am just tired.

Hmmm having had the glorious pleasure of reading all your posts in one fell swoop therefore, I'm looking at this with a birds eye view. The war issue to me is about control - let me circle and get there - we seem to be looking for the beginning - Durrant seems to me to be working forward with the hope to tracing back the beginning - most of us poof, poof at any other rational than one God and that oneness is what I think we are all seeking -

No, not necessarily a oneness with God but "the" oneness that makes us feel whole with no need to yearn - we are looking for a beginning that is within one cradle of civilization. We want for ourselves one controlled society that allows our feeling safe, comfortable with a controlled amount of differences so that our glourious feeling of connection, our oneness with each other and our comfort, will not be altered.

Granted these books were written in the 30s and much has been discovered since but the thread seems to follow as a continuous filament ignoring other civilizations in various stages of infancy. That prompted me to research and put together a cross list history based in art finds that I will share in later posts.

All that to say, I see civilizations having burst like a seed pod spewing. I am thinking civilizations burst forth as the big bang spewed forth the universe. Some stars/civilizations burning out early and others not taking light until other phenomenon prompts their coming on the scene.

I think war is about our wanting to control our surroundings - so that we can have and find that oneness - so that even our search for a beginning must be centered in a oneness and like multiple gods needed to be controlled as too disruptive we go to war to control any multiple that we deem too disruptive. This tug of war for each of our multiple concepts has not created oneness, only more variations.

I do not know where I found this but it has been on my computer notepad for some time and this may also shed some light on when and how we perceive that war has value.

two basic worldviews: Nature-oriented systems, which relate a people to their nature and the natural world of which they are a part. originated with a people which remained stable enough to develop and maintain a connection to the natural world, and thus emphasizes harmony with nature. "Nature religions are not attempts to control nature but to help you put yourself in accord with it." Nature-oriented systems are often matrilineal.

"Male and female contribute equally to the cosmic life force. All beings, not overlooking heavenly bodies and the elements of winds and rain, are brothers and sisters. Everything is alive, and each depends in ways on all the others." the Earth "is not a place of exile," therefore there is no reason to "challenge it, defy it, refashion it, or escape from it."

Socially-oriented systems, usually developed by nomadic peoples, which teach the people of that society that the center of existence Nature is ,generally condemned in some way and viewed as fallen or corrupt, and thus emphasis is placed on the conquering of the natural world. "When nature is thought of as evil, you don't put yourself in accord with it, you control it, or try to, and hence the tension, the anxiety, the cutting down of forests, the annihilation of nature people...Because nature is thought of as corrupt, every spontaneous act is sinful and must not be yielded to." Socially-oriented systems are often patriarchal.

This distinction is essential to the comprehension of any society, for, "You get a totally different civilization and a totally different way of living according to whether your myth represents nature as fallen or whether nature is in itself a manifestation of divinity, and the spirit is the revelation of the divinity that is inherent in nature."

From the nature-oriented systems, we learn about the importance of respect for and harmony with nature. From the socially-oriented systems have come most of the world's scientific and technological advances.

I read in Durant that canals were built between the Nile and the Red Sea. It is hard for me to judge how far the canals had to be extended to reach from the Red Sea to the Nile. The map of the Middle East I printed from Robby's link does not measure distance. The two streams appear closest just below Cairo and after that the Nile seems to drift in an opposite direction. I wonder how they adjusted for elevation variations and why the soil did not absorb out flow. Some of the excavation must have been in sand. Building canals of this order is an engineering feat that one can marvel at. U.S. citizens who built the Erie Canal 1n 1830 or so were pretty proud of their accomplishment.

I too wonder about that remark that ancient Egyptians built a canal from the Nile to the Red Sea. Both those entities lie fairly parallel to each other. The reason the Nile does not empty into the Red Sea, instead of flowing all the way to its present delta, must be because there is high ground between Nile/Red Sea. If that is so, how did the Egyptians manage to get over the elevation? Water just wont flow uphill. -- Trevor

Thank you, Barbara, for that well thought-out posting. You state: "The thread seems to follow as a continuous filament ignoring other civilizations in various stages of infancy. All that to say, I see civilizations having burst like a seed pod spewing. I am thinking civilizations burst forth as the big bang spewed forth the universe."

Toward the end of Volume One we will be discussing China, for example, and you may find some related thoughts there when we get to that civilization.

In comparing Ancient Egypt at war and Ancient Egypt at peace when there was more luxury, just as in most civilizations, most citizens during peacetime spent more time concerning their own personal selves. Click onto BEAUTY AND FASHION IN ANCIENT EGYPT to see what it was like to be an Ancient Egyptian woman.

Robby

For those interested, here is a Link about VARIOUS CANALS which includes brief remarks about the ancient canal from the Nile River to the Red Sea.

Robby

"The Hyskos, nomads from Asia, invaded disunited Egypt, set fire to the cities, razed the temples, squandered the accumulated wealth, destroyed much of the accumulated art, and for two hundred years subjected the Nile valley to the rule of the 'Shepherd kings.' Soon, however, the conquerors in their turn grew fat and prosperous, and lost control. The Egyptians rose in a war of liberation, expelled the Hyksos, and established that EIGHTEENTH DYNASTY which was to lift Egypt to greater wealth, power and glory than ever before."

Once again, a story of civilizations losing control because they grow "fat and prosperous." Do those of us in this Western Civilization have a lesson to learn here? What are we doing right? or wrong?

Robby

I have learned tremendous lessons from my harships during the depression that lasted all my life. That lesson is not to take anything for granted. Every bit of experience that I acquired is still useful after hardships have long gone. Extreme poverty, illness, hunger, deprivation of what some consider essentials can be used as a tool to face life with courage.

Examples of barbaric, so-called primitive countries conquering superior empires are numerous throughout the ages. Courage is needed to maintain the capacity to endure hardships that is essential for toppling nations that have turned soft after having known a long period of economic success.

We are not doing anything right or wrong I think. We are just living in this century, this geographic area where we have to live the rest of our lives. It is just luck. We didn't do anything to deserve it. All we can do is be more tolerent, more generous, more loving for those who are less fortunate and not feel guilty that we are so blessed. I just thank God, that's all.

Eloïse

"All we can do is be more tolerent, more generous, more loving for those who are less fortunate."

Does our examination of the various Dynasties in Ancient Egypt convince us that the more "generous and loving" ones are the ones which continued to exist?

Robby

I, too, have learned a great deal from the many various hardships in my life, including the most recent one which has hit this household. My daughter's partner lost his job yesterday along with many, many other people who worked where he did, all because of the recession the United States is in. Frankly, I don't think my family and I would become fat and complacent if we had a soft cushion to lean on once in a while.

Yes, we all must be more tolerant, generous and caring for people who have less than we do. It might be nice right now when the United States is so wounded if people outside this country were a little more tolerant of people who have more than they do. There are two sides to every coin.

I know one thing. I find it almost impossible to criticize places where I've never been and cultures that can't be understood unless one lives them. No matter how much Durant I read, or how much I read about Afghanistan, Egypt and other countries in the Near and Middle East, I will never have the awareness of what these places really are that someone who has been there for some time has.

The tragedies and consequences of September 11, 2001 have made me know exactly how very little I know, if nothing else.

Mal

Japan Film Revives Memories of Wartime Atrocities, by Tim Large

(EXCERPT) TOKYO (Reuters) - One Japanese war veteran confesses to 328 murders. A former army sergeant describes throwing babies onto camp fires for laughs. Another says he raped and killed a woman, then carved up her body to feed to his troops.

Those are some of the macabre confessions in a controversial documentary that promises to stir up painful memories of Japan's World War Two aggression and raise tough questions about individual responsibility for wartime atrocities.

Elderly veterans and curious youngsters were among the crowd at Japan's first public showing of ``Japanese Devils,´´ a three-hour mea culpa in which 14 former imperial army soldiers recall their brutal role in their country´s war against China between 1931 and 1945.

``Once you´ve killed your second or third, you stop thinking about it,´´ Yasuji Kaneko, a former army corporal, tells the camera, describing how he grew numb to slaughter after bayonet drills using live Chinese prisoners tied to stakes.

``It was ultimately about competition,´´ another veteran says, reeling off a litany of horrors that included burning Chinese babies just for fun. ``So how many you killed becomes a standard of achievement.´´

The documentary has been shown at film festivals around the world, notching up prizes for director Minoru Matsui in Germany and Portugal.

But its screening on home soil threatens to hit a raw nerve in a country where frank discussion about wartime atrocities remains largely taboo, and a backlash from right-wing activists is a real possibility.

The arts cinema in Tokyo's trendy Shibuya district that is showing the film said it received phone threats prior to the opening.

The theater braced for trouble from members of right-wing ''uyoku'' groups, who typically cruise the streets in black vans blaring militarist music or stage noisy kerbside demonstrations from atop flag-draped trucks.

``So far there´s been no problem, but who knows what will happen?´´ Katsue Tomiyama, the cinema´s president, said. GRUESOME CONFESSIONS

The 14 former soldiers interviewed in the film recount in harrowing detail personal experiences of killing, burning, rape, torture and live vivisection, mostly after Japan plunged into full-scale war against China in 1937.

They also describe a brutal military culture sustained by extreme peer pressure, routine acts of cruelty and a doctrine of racial supremacy that they say turned some ordinary conscripts into merciless butchers.

``If I were in their place, or you were in their place, we might have done the same thing,´´ director Matsui told a news conference after a recent press screening.

One former sergeant major, Masayo Enomoto, says he became so inured to murder -- and so steeped in the idea that the Chinese were sub-human -- that he thought nothing of chopping up a rape victim, cooking her flesh and serving it to his hungry troops.

``Killing lots of people also proved your loyalty to the emperor,´´ says Yoshio Tsuchiya, a former second lieutenant. Yoshio Shinozuka, a former corporal with the infamous Unit 731 that conducted gruesome experiments on live prisoners, says: ``We referred to these people as logs.´´

``Japanese Devils´´ gets its name from the expression coined by the Chinese to describe the Japanese invaders.

Though the veterans' accounts sometimes sound almost clinical, they are underscored by a feeling of remorse that they say has translated into a sense of duty to pass on their stories.

``I will bear witness with as much detail as possible to the young generation,´´ one former soldier says, explaining why he took the unprecedented step of confessing all before the camera.

THE 'WHOLE' STORY

Many among the 70 or so people who attended the premier were clearly affected by the film, though responses varied.

``I actually had that kind of experience myself,´´ a 77-year-old war veteran said, coming out of the theater with tears in his eyes. ``I was in China, in Nanking. I was wrong.´´

Asked if the kinds of atrocities detailed in ``Japanese Devils´´ were common, he said: ``They really were. Japan did terrible things.´´

Takahiro Suzuki, 23, turned up with his girlfriend because he thought it ``sounded interesting.´´

``Other countries have done much worse things than Japan,´´ he said. ``Why are the Japanese always singled out as the bad guys?´

´ That was a message echoed by several audience members. Some simply said: ``War is terrible.´´

Matsui said his main reason for making the 10 million yen ($80,300) documentary was to counter what he called Japan's tendency to ``sugarcoat´´ history.

``We haven´t really gone through the process of reflecting on and recognizing what happened during the war,´´ he said. Japan has long been accused of glossing over its wartime past by its Asian neighbors. Deep-smoldering anger over the issue periodically erupts into full-scale diplomatic rows.

Ties with China and South Korea (news - web sites) were strained earlier this year over the approval of a new history textbook written by nationalist historians that critics say whitewashes Japan's wartime atrocities.

Japanese Prime Minister Junichiro Koizumi also inflamed emotions by making a controversial visit in August to a shrine that honors convicted war criminals among Japan's war dead.

``Young Japanese know what the atrocities were,´´ said Yamanashi Gakuin University historian Nobuko Kosuge, who has written extensively on the question of Japan´s responsibility.

``But they don´t always know the ´whole history´ -- that Japan invaded China and fought with the Chinese Army, or that Japan colonized Korea and the people suffered for so long.

``Because they don´t know the past, they can´t understand international sensitivities of this kind.´´

Those sensitivities have come to the fore in a string of compensation cases, with victims -- forced laborers, sexual slaves and former prisoners of war among them -- demanding that Japan pay for past wrongs.

Nearly all such lawsuits have been dismissed on the grounds that the 1951 San Francisco Peace Treaty officially resolved all issues relating to compensation.

Pushed by international opinion and prodded by its own conscience, Japan has in the past decade apologized through various formulas for its wartime atrocities and harsh colonial rule of Asia.

The apologies, while dismissed by critics as insincere and insufficient, helped spark a nationalist backlash manifested in the textbook debate, with some voices berating what they see as Japan's ``masochistic´´ view of history.

``The biggest reason for making the film was to preserve a record,´´ producer Kenichi Oguri said.

``After making it, we held a preview. Some young people said they didn´t even know Japan had fought a war with China.´´

This is a link to an article about the discovery of a flood that happened around 7000 BC.
The Great Flood

Pat, why don't you open up a new discussion, title it "War Atrocities" then who ever feels like can point out the other side's atrocities. Your post is a bit out of place here.

Mal:"......that can't be understood unless one lives them....."

Mal, you make a good point.

Pat:--You may find it a bit easier to keep to the subject by reading the four GREEN quotes above in the Heading.

Robby

Because of the second GREEN quote above, "Hatsheput arranged to be made at once male and divine. A biography was invented for her by which Amon had dsscended upon Hatsheput's mother Ahmasi in a flood of perfume and light. His attentions had been gratefully received and on his departure he had announced that Ahmasi would give birth to a daughter in whom all the valor and strength of the god would be made manifest on earth.

"To satisfy the prejudices of her people,and perhaps the secret desire of her heart, the great Queen had herself repreented on the monuments as a bearded and breastless warrrier. Though the inscriptions referred to her with the feminine pronoun, they did not hesitate to speak of her as 'Son of the Sun' and 'Lord of the Two Lands.' When she appeared in public she dressed in male garb and wore a beard."

Apparently the ruse of women pretending to be men started millenniums ago. Any other examples you can think of in history?

Robby

Hello all. Congratulations on such a stimulating and informative discussion.

I think that bringing in other sources is wonderful and can add a lot to the discussion. I want to remind you all that SeniorNet does not have permission for individuals to quote in full copyrighted newspaper or other articles in our discussions. Please see the information we have provided about Internet Citation Procedures.

Please don't quote full articles in your posts. Just include a sentence or two and then a URL/ link to the full article.

Thank you

Beauty is not only skin deep it comes also from within.

In ancient Egypt, if women lived at best only till the age of 30 - provided they were wealthy enough, ate well and were not sick - they did not have to work as hard to keep their beauty as women do today because women today live two to three times longer. Egyptian women took great care of their bodies and according to what we can gather from history, they were extremely beautiful.

Today’s women are concerned about damages that ageing does to their skin, but it costs more and it takes longer to attend to it. Women go to the beauty parlor to have their hair washed, colored, dried, set and sprayed. Cosmetics and perfumes are used in profusion. They go to gym and dance classes for fitness and to stay trim. They go on a diet and get their face lifted, go to the dermatologist and beautician. They get lipo suction, tummy tucks and varicose veins treatments.

Yet there are some women who never do any of those things and yet stay beautiful all their lives with an inner beauty that shines through.

Eloïse

Ancient Egypt was one of the earliest societies we know of in which beauty was important. Click onto HAIR to learn how Ancient Egyptian women treated their hair.

Robby

"Hatshepsut had a right to determine her own sex, for she became one of the most successful and beneficient of Egypt's many rulers. She maintained internal order without undue tyranny, and external peace without loss. She organized a great expedition to Punt (presumably the eastern coast of Africa), giving new markets to her merchants and new delicacies to her people. She helped to beautify Karnak, raised there two majestic obelisks, built at Der-el-Bahri the stately temple which her father had designed, and repaired some of the damage that had been done to older temples by the Hyksos kings.
"Finally she built for herself a secret and ornate tomb among the sand-swept mountains on the western side of the Nile, in which came to be called 'The Valley of the Kings Tombs." Her successors followed her example, until some sixty royal sepulchres had been cut into the hills, and the city of the dead began to rival living Thebes in population.
"For twenty-two years the Queen ruled in wisdom and peace. Her follower, Thutmose III marched victorious through western Asia, subduing, taxing and levying tribute, and returned to Thebes in triumph six months after his departure. In fifteen campaigns Thutmose made Egypt master of the Mediterranean world. Not only did he conquer, but he organized. He was the first man in known history to recognize the importance of sea power. He built a fleet that kept the Near East effectively in leash. Trade flourished in Thebes as never before. He passed away after a rule of thirty-two years, having made Egyptian leadership in the Mediterranean world complete."
Two entirely different kinds of rulers. Which one would you call the "greatest?"

Robby

Thutmose 111 was a conqueror who brought home his spoils. Hatshepsut was a builder who brought prosperity through construction. Give me the ladies everytime. I can't wait for Hillary to run for the Presidency of the U.S.

ROBBY - that was an interesting site about Nefertiti. You asked about women pretending to be men in history. Wasn't there a woman Pope and didn't she pretend she was a man?

ELOISE - well said!

Ruth

Pope Joan is often mentioned in such a role but I suspect she was just a rumour. The novel, however was quite convincing. I think, one of the caribbean pirates was also a woman. I think also there have been women who have successfully masqueraded as soldiers and some as Naval sailors.

George Eliot and George Sand are outstanding examples. Fortunately, women today may function in their own name and gender.

Chevalier Eon? I know the name from Crosswords as pretending to be of a gender not hers, not much else.

As a ruler of state I have a feeling that a woman would be less prone to use violence and war and care more about the welfare of her people. Hatshepsut is greater for me. I wish we had an opportunity soon to test that theory.

Today, had a woman been at the head of the US, I think she would have been very unpopular had she tried a different policy. I have been stunned to see my most gentle friends turn into violent extremists overnight after that day in September. Not that I don't understand it, I just did not expect it.

As someone said in an earlier post about the difficulty to analyse or understand places we have not seen, I have the same reticence about US or western civilizations. Such a pride for a country is very difficult for me to grasp. Maybe it is because I traveled too much and did not build strong roots. I wonder if the old Egyptian had that pride? Did they really see themselves as the top of the elite, the others being barbarians? perhaps too strong a word.

I see myself first of all as a citizen of the world, as a tiny spark of humanity. I wish I knew if I was more African, European or Israeli.

Bubble

Ruth:--Welcome to Story of Civilization! We are looking forward to some of your other thoughts.

Robby

"Another conqueror, Amenhotep II, subdued again certain idolators of liberty in Syria, and returned to Thebes with seven captive kings, still alive, hanging head downward from the prow of the imperial galley. Six of them he sacrificed to Amon with his own hand.
"In his reign Thebes was as majestic as any city in history. Her streets crowded with merchants -- her markets filled with the goods of the world -- her buildings surpassing in magnificence all those of ancient or then modern capitals -- her imposing palaces receiving tribute from an endless chain of vassal states -- her massive temples enriched all over with gold and adorned with every art -- her spacious villas and costly chateaux, her shaded promenades and artificial lakkes providing the scene for sumptuous displays of fashion that anticipated Imperial Rome.

"Such was Egypt's capital in the days of her glory, in the reign before her fall."

What might cause such a "well-endowed" civilization to fall? Didn't everybody have everything they wanted? Are any of you here acquainted with any current civilization that has streets crowded with merchants? -- markets filled with the goods of the world? -- receiving "tribute" from other states? -- massive adorned temples? -- spacious villas? -- costly chateaux? -- sumptuous displays of fashion?

Robby

Bubble - I was wondering if I was the only one who didn't feel rooted in any country. I too was often uprooted as a child and I travelled to many countries. Is that why?

Ruth - Welcome, please stay with us. I don't know of any female pope.

Justin - A woman President certainly would take a different stand on military/political/economic issues. I remember Margaret Thatcher, she did well didn't she.

Robby - Of course we too are a well-endowed civilization. We will fall, but the question is when. I don't think anybody can prevent that from happening. Living as simple a life as possible is one way to be prepared. Not many people know how to go without in the Western World especially in the baby boomer generation.

Eloïse

I was raised in a rural part of the State of Missouri....I consider myself a citizen of the world and am deeply interested and concerned for all peoples..I do not feel "elite" in any sense of the word, however I love my country deeply ..... I confess to being very patriotic...I had very little as a child and could most certainly get along with a lot less if need be..

The DISCOVER channel will show a one hour documentary on Women Pharaohs tonight, Wednesday, December 12th at eight o'clock p.m. Eastern Standard Time.

Does she mean the Discovery Channel?

Mal

What might cause such a "well-endowed" civilization to fall? Didn't everybody have everything they wanted? Are any of you here acquainted with any current civilization that has streets crowded with merchants? -- markets filled with the goods of the world? -- receiving "tribute" from other states? -- massive adorned temples? -- spacious villas? -- costly chateaux? -- sumptuous displays of fashion?

The United States fills this bill except for the second question. I'll be bold and say the majority of us here do not have everything they want.

You know, I've said that I feel like a citizen of the world, too, but how can I when I know so little about any other place?

I've lived in 7 states in these United States and found each one to be different from the other, but they were all part of the whole that is this part of America. I've travelled only in a small way to 7 different countries, but have never lived in any of them. The outside view I had as a tourist is not a true or real one.

In order to understand the history, traditions, culture and the accent and differences of language of each state to which I moved, I had to live there at least a year. Because I lived longer than that in each of those 7 states where I was, I ended up with 7 different views of the United States and its people and the various idiomatic and colloquial differences of this American language to which I was exposed.

It seems natural that I feel more part of the land of my birth and more loyalty to it than I do to a world I do not know firsthand and probably never will.

Sea Bubble talks about the transformation from a "gentle people" she knew to "violent extremism". We here in the United States are fierce fighters and a rather violent people whose frontier tendencies show nearly every time we are insulted. We put much more money into the military than we direct toward the welfare of poor people.

I suggest that we do not say we could "do without" with equanimity unless we know exactly what it's like.

Having lived quite well when I was married to a successful scientist-businessman, I am at the point in my life where I have not had a new pair of shoes in six years or bought any clothes for myself for three. I have not been out to lunch or dinner or to a movie or concert in well over three years. My only outings are to the supermarket at this time. I drive a 16 year old car. My entertainment consists of an old, old television set, a radio and this computer, the use of which is provided by my daughter. My supplemental health insurance has gone up in cost so much that I wonder if I can possibly afford to buy it. I do not consider myself deprived, but I am representative of many people in this "well-endowed civilization".

There are others here who live in abject poverty and are not genteelly poor in the way that I am.

My situation is not what people see on television, in movies, or read about in the paper. This wealthy country is assessed by the rich, its riches and the truly poor which I have mentioned. That is not a true or accurate view.

In my very humble opinion, a civilization with such social discrepancies cannot survive unless something is done to create what I consider real equality for all of its people.

Mal

Tigerliley:--I don't know if you have been one of the many "lurkers" here but good to see you again!

Durant has said, in a quote which is posted in the Heading above permanently:--"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."

Are any participants here taking the information that Durant and history are passing along to us and sharing this new-found knowledge or insight with children and/or grandchildren?

Robby

I wish I could, but my children, or their generation, are not interested. I do share with the "golden age generation" of readers coming to exchange books when I work at the lending library. They have a curious mind and can relate to those historic places. Bubble

My sixteen year old grandson has been studying ancient history in one of his classes. The last time we talked, he showed me he knows a great deal more about it than I do.

Mal

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."

- - - George Santayana

The 12 step group, Alcoholics Anonymous, is an example of what George Santayana is saying. At meetings, people talk about what happened to them in the past, the good things, the wonderful things, the bad things and the horrible things. They do this so they'll remember past experiences and help them avoid doing what they did in the past that brought them into the room where the meeting is held.

There is a saying in Alcoholics Anonymous which describes this very well. "Keep your memory green."

Mal

Robby....I am with you every day and am doing my reading...Dear Malryn..I have read of your circumstances in other posts and know this is distressing for you .. However I must tell you that I have been in dire straits before and know that I can do with very little. I think Americans are tougher than we sometimes give them credit for. The view from afar and sometimes at home is that we are a spoiled and greedy people. I do not believe this to be so. We continue as a county to care for the needy, to promote education, to help other countrys, etc., etc......perfect....no...but still trying and beats any other country that I know of.....Yes....I love this Republic, my home, my country.........

Mal:"......What might cause such a "well-endowed" civilization to fall? Didn't everybody have everything they wanted?....."

May be that is the problem.

Hubert:

The questions about the fall of a well-endowed civilization and whether people had everything they wanted was a quote from Robby's post #133. I posted what I did about my own situation here and now to suggest that perhaps all the people in Thebes did not have everything they wanted or perhaps even needed.

Tigerliley:

Please don't misunderstand my post. I am not distressed by the way I live. Rather, I consider myself to be very, very fortunate to be alive and well and able to enjoy the advantages I have. I agree that people in this country are far stronger, more resilient and much less greedy than the way they are pictured.

Mal

Thank you Mal.....I feel as you do......

Perhaps the problem lies in achieving everything! I think that looking back on life we are only truly happy and contented when we are striving towards a goal, even if we don't realize it at the time. Think of all the successful Rock and Film stars who are content with their partners while they are struggling to establish themselves, but as soon as they "arrive" the rot sets in!

I think great Civilizations are like that, the whole country works together in the lean bad times, but then when prosperity comes, some start to look around and see that others have more etc. etc.! This is my theory anyway! Jan from Australia

As an aside to some of the most recent posts, my husband (who is Egyptian) and some of our African friends often wonder "WHEN do Americans take the time to enjoy what they have? To see the fruit of their hard work and to mingle with their family? Does it only happen once a year on the 'family vacation' or during the holidays celebrated in this country? Everyone works so hard! But when do they enjoy."

Just thought these were some interesting comments from people who also work hard, but are from a non-Western culture, where the enjoyment of the results of one's efforts is equally as important.

Jan B - Yes, of course. When the kids are small, the money is scarce, its good to have a someone to lean on. But when success comes, sometimes marriages break up. Can this be applied to civilizations?

Hubert:--Regarding what might cause such a "well-endowed" civilization to fall, you said: "May be that is the problem.

Would you expand a bit on that please?

Welcome, Jan, all the way from Australia! You say:--I think great Civilizations are like that, the whole country works together in the lean bad times, but then when prosperity comes, some start to look around and see that others have more.

This may sound silly but does that mean that a recession is better for a civilization than properity? What has Ancient Egypt taught us regarding that?

Robby

Before I click off here and start my day's chores, I'd like to say how much I enjoy this Discussion. As I go about some very mundane things, washing up, making beds, buying groceries etc. my mind is roaming in ancient Egypt. They come striding out of the desert sands-- Kings, peasants, slaves and fisherman and people my thoughts all day long. Thank you everyone, for making this possible! Edit -- Not really Robbie, I meant the striving to become a great Nation. A great Nation can have a Recession and still be a great Nation. Does this make sense? Jan from Australia

Jan:--Thank you for being part of our Family!!

Robby

Mahlia, it is so very true. In western world it seems people never stop to work, to push forward to strive, even on week ends. Very seldom would someone stop, on the way to work or to school just to admire a flower, to observe a bird, to lift the head skyward and try to identify a whiff of smell, a scent in the air. In Africa, after the daily tasks, it would be abnormal not to sit, to laze around, to take the time for a talk, for sharing a joke, for just showing an interest to the others.

It is very vivid in the way the two worlds buy. In western civilization, you expect an adequate price to be quoted, you accept or not, you pay, you go. In eastern shuks they would be very offended if you do not waggle over the price, if you do not pretend to go then come back to talk down the price at least four or five times. It is all like a game and it is a pleasure to observe the interaction, the cleverness of the arguments. Only when that pleasure will be fully enjoyed can the transaction take place.

Bubble

This is the permanent quote which one can read regularly in the Heading above.--"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts."

Durant explained to us right from the very start -- from Pre-historic Man on through Sumeria -- that these four elements are the bases of every civilization. Now that we have examined in detail the various Dynasties, he is ready to take us through those very same four steps as we examine what made Ancient Egypt and those Dynasties what they were. And, of course, the first element is "economic." As shown in the GREEN quotes above, we start with Agriculture.

"Behind these kings and queens were pawns. Behind these temples, palaces and pyramids were the workers of the cities and the peasants of the fields."He quotes Herodotus: "They gather in the fruits of the earth with less labor than any other people. For they have not the toil of breaking up the furrow with the plough, nor of hoeing, nor of any other work which all other men must labor at to obtain a crop of corn. But when the river has come of its own accord and irrigated their fields, and having irrigated them has subsided, then each man sows his own land and turns his swine into it, and when the seed has been trodden into it by the swine, he waits for harvest time. Then he gathers it in."

A soft life -- right?

Robby

I think it is too much of a simplification of complex things to say that a civilization falls when it becomes prosperous and doesn't when it's not. I've thought a lot about this and have come to the conclusion that there are many involved and probably convoluted and intertwined reasons why nations fall.

In the first place, there has to be a governmental reason why such a thing would happen. It is necessary, I think, to examine the governments of these civilizations and see who and what went wrong.

Comparing the fall of civilizations with the breakup of certain marriages is too easy. The life of a musician like a rock star is frantic, very, very stressful and not typical. I've been a professional musician, and I know what it is to rush from one job to another and juggle time and energy to find space for the many performances and commitments I had to be at and keep. Something inevitably gives, either a marriage where the partner is home and not on the road, or the musician's health. How does this relate to civilizations? Do politicians and those who govern get so bogged down in doing their jobs that they let their government down?

What else is involved besides the people? When people are prosperous, do they neglect to vote? Do they neglect to keep an eye on those who govern them? Not if it affects their self interest, and it usually does.

What are the real reasons for the fall of nations? There are so many that it give us plenty to talk about. What does Durant say about this?

I don't know who in the West you've been watching, but it seems to me that the young people I see find plenty of time to smell the roses or daisies or whatever is in their path. My daughter and her partner come home from work, have dinner and get on the computer to play their favorite interactive game, Gemstone3 which they very much enjoy. Or they lie around and watch a movie on TV and eat popcorn and laugh together.

When the weather is nice, they are out cultivating gardens for the fun of it, or just plain lazing in the sun. Their friends are the same, and there are plenty of parties at a pool or nearby lake in the summer and sitting around enjoying the sunshine after a swim or a game of tennis.

What about all the books these people read? Believe me, they read plenty.

What about the time spent in the kitchen cooking up a new recipe or a cake or cookies just for the fun of it and sitting at the kitchen table laughing and enjoying each other while they eat what they made?

Well, my attitude and view are different, and that's all there is to that!

Mal

Plenty to think of there regarding the decline of civilizations!! How do you folks react to Mal's comments?

Robby

Robby, in your post #155 about workers in cities and peasants in the fields behind the kings and queens, you hit on something I tried to point out (badly) in an earlier post about people who are not prospering in a prosperous society.

When there is an uneven distribution of wealth in a civilization, it seems to me that there inevitably comes unrest and feelings of rebellion among those who have less and know they'll never have more than they do if things continue as they have been.

If another type of governor or government comes along, these "underlings" group together and join the usurper in the hope that their lot will improve and be better. If the existing government does not provide for and satisfy the all the people, it seems to me that those who are deprived turn against that government and weaken it badly. When this happens, that particular civilization will fall.

Mal

A properous nation very often looks like a ripe plum to a deprived nation. If the deprived has a strong army,the will to fight and capable leaders they will attempt to steal the plum. Prosperity often brings vulnerability.But not all properous nations are vulnerable. The U.S. was vulnerable between 1918 and 1941 when our plum looked attractive. Distance ( two Oceans) protected us and gave us enough time to gird our loins to fight. I don't think it's inevitable that the U.S. will be overcome or that we will consume ourselves. We learn new ways to handle out problems every year. Perhaps not as fast as some would like but we do grow and become more and more humane within the framework of a free enterprise system.

Mal: You seem to me to be saying that it is the job of government to ensure an equal distribution of the wealth of a country and if it is unable to accomplish that task then a dissatisfied minority or majority wii overthrow that government. That may happen in some countries-in countries where the people have little or no voice in the role of government. But here in the U.S. the government is guided by rules which enable each citizen to influence and determine his or her own destiny. Doesn't matter which party is in power.

And so what has Ancient Egypt taught us?

Robby

Justin, when I posted that message I was not thinking of the United States because I'm not convinced that this nation will fall. You might agree that what I said in post #157 has happened elsewhere in recent history and the ancient past.

Hmmm. I wonder if it could happen here if conditions were right?

Mal

Edit. Robby, as far as I'm concerned Ancient Egypt has taught us a heck of a lot.

"As far as I'm concerned Ancient Egypt has taught us a heck of a lot."

Exactly what, Mal?

Robby

Robby:

I knew you'd ask that!

The most important thing the Durants' Our Oriental Heritage has done for me is that it has made me think.

It also has corroborated something I've felt and said for many, many years, that technology evolves in a very fast way, and the human race doesn't. Going back to very early humans and learning about how they lived showed me that what I've concluded on my own has basis in fact.

Though the Sumerian and Egyptian civilizations were very sophisticated civilizations compared to primitive early tribes, I can see strong similarities between them because of the people.

I am much more interested in people and how they and their minds advanced than I am in the monuments they built and left behind, though those monuments certainly reveal a kind of mathematics and physics which is used today.

To me, the evolution of language, writing and education is far more important than any pyramid, and I cannot wait until we really begin to learn about how those evolved and advanced. In fact, I'm extremely impatient to get to pages 170 to 179, which discuss "stages in the development of writing" and literature in Egypt.

"Panta rei -- all things flow, only scholars never change." (Page 179)

Mal

Regarding how soft the peasants' lives were by just letting the Nile River and the swine do their work for them -- did anyone notice the quote above which says:--Every acre of the soil belonged to the Pharaoh?"

"It was not the peasant who profited by the bounty of the river. Men could use it only by the kind indulgence of the Pharaoh. Every tiller of the earth had to pay him an annual tax of ten or twenty per cent in kind. Large tracts were owned by the feudal barons or other wealthy men. The size of some of the estates may be judged from the circumstance that one of them had fifteen hundred cows.

"Cereals, fish and meat were the chief items of diet. The rich washed down their meals with wine, the poor with barley beer."

Robby

Mal: I do not see the conditions you describe in 157 having the effect you suggest in Rome where the government split made it a weak but ripe plum, nor do I see it in Egypt where an unpracticed army gave way to a superior force.Some of the elements you describe may have occurred in the French Revolution but Carlisle seems less certain about the role of the deprived in overcoming the monarchy.In the Russian Revolution the role of the deprived was much more pronounced. The monarchy in Russia totally ignored the peasants and clearly believed in divine right.So I must agree with you on two counts-first that Governments that do not make it posible for the deprived to achieve a livable standard of living are vulnerable to overthrow and second that the fall of civilizations is a complex event.

"The "free" farmer was subject only to the middleman and the tax-collector, who dealt with him on the most time-honored of economic principles, taking 'all that the traffic would bear' out of the produce of the land."

Here is what a Scribe wrote:--"Dost thou not recall the picture of the farmer when the tenth of his grain is levied? Worms have destroyed half the wheat, and the hippopotami have eaten the rest. There are swarms of rats in the fields. The grasshoppers alight there. The cattle devour. The little birds pilfer. And if the farmer loses sight for an instant of what remains on the ground, it is carried off by robbers. Moreover, the thongs which bind the iron and the hoe are worn out, and the team has died at the plough.

"It is then tht the scribe steps out of the boat at the landing-place to levy the title, and there come the Keepers of the Doors of the King's Granary with cudgels, and Negroes with ribs of palm-leaves, crying, 'Come now, come!' There is none, and they throw the cultivator full length upon the ground, bind him, drag him to the canal, and fling him in head first. His wife is bound with him. His children are put into chains. The neighbors in the meantime leave him and fly to save their grain."

Do I hear any complaints about the Internal Revenue Bureau?

Robby

You bet!

Robby, did they archive Part One of this discussion, I hope?
Never mind. I just found the link in the heading.

Mal

Yes, Mal, you found the Link just below my name in the Heading. None of those wonderful postings by all you folks will be destroyed. After we have reached another 1000 postings or so, there will be Part 2, Part 3, etc. Each of these can be reached by clicking on the Master Link below my name.

Anyone, newcomers or regular participants, can refer back to Sumeria, Pre-historic Man, or whatever interests them.

Robby

"Nothing in life is certain except death and taxes."

- - - Benjamin Franklin

Mal - Me thinks that technology races ahead of us as we run behind trying to catch up with it. If we don’t run, it will gobble us and use the fuel to run ahead even faster. There are always people who catch up, but a large majority have a hard time with it and often fall behind. That is why we are here right now, we don’t want to fall behind.

Science and technology, monumental works of architecture, timeless works of art is one whole entity that moves civilization forward when men are not busy warring.

Eloïse

I am always puzzled by what we truly mean, when we talk of A GREAT NATION. Is a great nation one which has a better army than its neighbours, and thus could, if it so wished, enslave them? Or is it a nation's productive capacity? Does productive capacity make the US a greater nation than Japan, say, or England? If so, how? and if not, why not?

After Rome surpassed Greece as the centre of western civilisation, what did the Romans have, that the Greeks had lost? Just what determines GREATNESS? I know we are talking about Egypt. I use the above mentioned countries mearly as examples.-- Trevor

Generalities is not a good way to communicate and I am sorry to be repeating my post above in order to better express my views.

“Technology races ahead of us” On the personal level, I mean the computer I am using. At the national level, the army is using military equipment of the latest technology and at the international level, the most advance countries use satellite technology for spying and locating enemy targets. This is just a small portion of the technology that we are presently using but it has given us an edge over other nations like Afghanistan and Irak.

Technology is allowing us to live more comfortably. Textiles are cheaper, cars are made with plastic materials, dishwashers, clothes washers and dryers, cordless phones, floor coverings, electricity to heat our homes all use technology to produce them and much more.

By the “large majority” I mean the Third World countries that are becoming poorer and poorer. Before technology, these people could live decently, eat and function in their society. They don’t have all the things listed above and they surely could not defend themselves if they were attacked. I can’t imagine seniors in those countries using the computer like we do here on Seniornet.

As far as “monumental works of architecture” the Egyptians erected monuments that are admired centuries after that kingdom and civilization tumbled. These monuments have left such lasting impressions that Architects of today are inspired by these works to create modern monuments that they hope would have a long lasting life and be admired in centuries to come, for instance, the pyramid in front of the Louvre in Paris. Only a few monuments that are still admired long after their creator died, the Eiffel Tower, the Taj Mahal, the Great Wall of China. Le Palais de Versailles, Mighty kings and rulers leave behind reminders of their past splendor.

“Timeless works of art” Artists of the past like Michaelangelo and Rambrant are still admired today. Music composers such as Bethoven and Mozart left us with music that transports us and their music never seems to go out of style. Poets and writers of the past inspire us with the beauty of their literary creation.

The creators who push civilization forward are few, but they inspire the masses to move ahead. They lead the way for us to get out of our comfortable known world into the unknown in spite of the dangers associated with not knowing what lies ahead and the consequences if the new ideas fail.

In times of war many great men die and leave a gap that has to be bridged before civilizations can move ahead again.

Eloïse

I like what you are saying Eloïse - the biggest truth I am hearing from your post is that civilizations are only people - groups of people with a variety of skills and a variety of leadership abilities. It is so easy to take the concept of 'civilization' and make it some untouchable power unto itself -

I am still pondering why we look at the history of 'some' civilizations as a thread that we like to trace so that this thread will lead to the western world - yes, I understand that Greece and Rome had their day as did Egypt but not brought into this story is the glory of China that had its day - Nor the fact that civilization was flowering in Central America and sites have been uncovered with pottery from 2500 B.C. in Georgia and North Carolina and complex Ceramics have been dated to 2800 B.C. found in Parita Bay in central Panama and 2800 B.C. is when the lakeside communities in northern Italy were weaving, spinning and building chamber tombs, wooden-plows that were designed to be pulled by oxen have been found and dated in Europe since before 3000 B.C. All these civilizations are active during the time Egypt was flowering in the deserts of Northern Africa.

I guess I am reading into the comment about what makes a civilization flounder and decay as something bad and if we could only figure out the answer we could avoid our own demise.

I have two thoughts running togther here - essentially I wonder if the West is so busy tracing its line that it is pushing the envelope and other lines have either developed from civilizations we like to point out as in our line.

OR that these very civilizations that are in this line that we like to consider as the direct line to our western civilization were in fact greatly influenced by what we now consider the shunts -- eg. China, Korea, Indonesia, Panama.

OR the thought I had shared earlier in another post, that civilizations are like a pod bursting seeds and each seed will take root, grow and die in its own time, independent of each other and there really is not a thread or beginning, only the 100th monkey syndrom among civilizations that flowered before written history was studied. After written history I can see some learning of the dos and don'ts.

By bringing all this into the concept that a civilization is only a group of people utilizing its resources, then I think we can dope out how some groups had the ability to help themselves be better at taking care of themselves as well as, creating beauty in their lives. Because, where the Durrants say the four keys or elements used to measure a sociaty or civilization's greatness are in the areas of "economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts." he also said -

Each civilization invented its own characteristic monumental architecture, art, and religion. Most of them also developed writing and created a body of literature, philosophy, history, and law. Although their military exploits and the power they wielded over the lives of others is what their inscriptions tell us they were most proud, it is rather by their art, architecture, and to some extent their literature, philosophy, and religious works that we best know them.

And so if we know their greatness best "by their art, architecture, and to some extent their literature, philosophy, and religious works" that says to me without our being there to know all the circumstances, can we really measure the greatness and failings that led to the death toll of a civilizations by focusing on a societies economic provision, political organization, or even its moral traditions. Seems to me their arts, scietific development, literature and philosophy and how those elements added or not to the further development of a people and their morality is the measurement of a societies greatness or failure. And that all civilization as it has a beginning and then a flowering it must also die. Because it is that very flowering that if greatness occures elevates the people so that their surroundings will not support more grown if it is holding on, freezing to its achievments.

Thank you, Barbara, for that thought-provoking posting. You say:--"All civilization as it has a beginning and then a flowering, it must also die. Because it is that very flowering that if greatness occurs, elevates the people so that their surroundings will not support more growing if it is holding on, freezing to its achievements."

If I catch you correctly, one cause of the death of a civilization is the "freezing of its achievements." We will, or course, be soon addressing the arts, scientific development, literature and philosophy of Ancient Egypt.

Do any of you here see any of nowadays' civilizations "freezing their achievements?"

Robby

Moving on to Durant's second element of civilization, "with scribes as a clerical bureaucracy the Pharaoh and the provincial nobles maintained law and order in the state. Ancient slabs show such clerks taking the census and examining income-tax returns. In the Fifth Dynasty the law of private property and bequest was intricate and precise. Judges required cases to be plead and answered, reargued and rebutted, not in oratory but in writing -- which compares favorably with our windy litigation. Perjury was punished with death.

"There were regular courts, rising from local judgment-seats in the nomes to supreme courts at Memphis, Thebes, or Heliopolis. Torture was used occasionally as a midwife to truth. Beating with a rod was a frequent punishment. Mutilation by cutting off nose or ears, hand or tongue was sometimes resorted to or exile to the mines, or death by strangling, empaling, beheading or burning at the state. The extreme penalty was to be embalmed alive, to be eaten slowly by an inescapable coating of corrosive natron. Criminals of high rank were saved the shame of public execution by being permitted to kill themselvees as in samurai Japan."

Would you call Ancient Egypt "civilized?" Just what does "civilized" mean?

Robby

http://www.virtual-egypt.com/

Egypt was as civilized as we are here in the United States on the eve of the year 2002.

There is something we should consider, Robby, and that is the fact that our attitudes and thinking here in the West are often very different from those in the Near East and Middle East.

I read some very interesting posts in the Caravans discussion about "cruelty without malice" which exists in the Near East and Middle East. This is something we in the West find hard to comprehend. Perhaps Mahlia and Tiger Tom will come in and tell us more about this concept.

Eloise and Barbara, one thing we must not forget is that technology does not come about because of itself and of its own volition. It is human beings who do the research and development that create the technology we use.

We can't blame "technology" for anything. The responsibility for technology lies with men and women, and this brings up all kinds of ethical, legal and other questions which could be discussed here.

There are societies and civilizations in this world that never heard of microwave ovens, television sets, computers and missiles. Their worlds are complete to the people who live in them. A mistake we in the West make is to think that people who do not have what we consider as technical advantages are deprived because they do not have them. The same mistake in thinking was made by missionaries who went into places to spread the word of Christianity when those places where they went had their own religions. I feel that we in the West should not judge and assess other places by our own standards which do not always apply to other civilizations.

In art and architecture and with all artists in all of time, there are always "dead" and uncreative times. This does not mean that there is a "freezing" of achievements, in my estimation. Look at what was called the Dark Ages, for example. Then look at what is called the Renaissance in comparison.

I have much more to say about this, but first would like to know what others think.

Mal

I have got the librarians at our local library interested in revisiting Ancient Egypt after discussing with them things I have learnt from this discussion and my reading. One of them brought a childrens book out about Ancient Egypt which had wonderful illustrations in it showing exactly how their engineering feats worked.

Carolyn

Carolyn:--Why not get your Librarian to register in Senior Net and to come visit our discussion group?

Robby

"Ancient carvings show us the 'Great House' from which the Pharaoh ruled and in which the offices of the government were gathered. From this Great House which the Jews translated Pharaoh, came the title of the emperor."

The name of the house and the leader were therefore the same. Don't we say "The White House announced today" or "The White House will made a decision?"

Robby

"As became so godlike a person, the Pharaoh was waited upon by a variety of aides, including generals, launderers, bleachers, guardians of the imperial wardrobe, and other men of high degree. Twenty officials collaborated to take care of hs toilet -- barbers who were permitted only to shave him and cut his hair -- hairdressers who adjusted the royal cowl and diadem to his head -- manicurists who cut and polished his nails -- perfumers who deodorized his body, blackened his eyelids with kohl, and reddened his cheeks and lips with rouge."

Any of this have a familiar ring?

Robby

Mal to further my thought - technological advances I do not see as an issue, anymore than developing acrylic paint versus egg yolk based paint, or to posh pooh the use of new technology and their accompanying changes in everyday behavior in favor of staying with the traditional - Yes, civilization is people but, can we truly compare our sensibilities and virtue today with the behavior of civilizations that flourished 5000 years ago.

For instance - we now know - through these very high tech advances - that Cleopatra suffered a great deal of pain and that her bones show a hip decay similar to a known decease found among the skeletal remains of those mass burials near the pyramids - therefore, continuing the argument, ‘Who built the pyramids?’

If this endeavor was a national group effort, somewhat like the national effort we all remember participating in during WW2, there is then a sense of pride and the decay would be - the sense of societal pride was too valuable to discount therefore limiting the society moving on, adapting the new technologies of warfare or what ever we learn the Romans had going for them that the Egyptians could not adopt.

Where as, if the pyramids were built by slaves the hierarchy would need to be fed more and more comfort and glory, so that there would be decay from within, without a ‘community will’ to do whatever it takes in order to stay on top of the heap, and simply sharing the top with Rome. I am assuming here that it is Rome that out-did Egypt as the new flowering civilization.

This reminds me of Japan during the 20th century. While Japan hung on to its old ways they were not an economic power. After WW2 they were taught and adapted change so that there was economic growth through a 'national will' to change and succeed. How much creativity and change has continued in Japan? They have suffered a reversal - is that reversal because of hanging on to the techniques that supported advancement rather than embracing more change. The Japanese are a more traditional society - a changed atmosphere often is observed among the young.

If we censure the creative lifestyle of the young we could easily be hanging on to what worked for our generation and curtail the new, the very new that will bring change and out of change another round of greatness. Nothing growing is perfect - growth tumbles and foams and expands. When fear enters than a nation expanding believes there is not enough. Not enough space, resources to support an increased need or simply a means to control growth and the fear becomes an aggressive act toward another.

So far we have increased toward an area not inhabited - John Kennedy did us all a great favor encouraging and giving us a 'national will' to succeed in space. Look at all the changes and advances this expansion has provided - High Tech.

Barbara reminds us that "nothing growing is perfect - growth tumbles and foams and expands."

Yes and an aside - I think that very growth has entered the middle east and fear has taken hold of the keepers of tradition. And now in order to control growth and change, aggression is enacted toward the civilization that represents the opposite of their traditions. I also see our fear, fear that we will run out of the natural resources that engineered our success and so we are agressively protecting the tradition that will assure our supply of oil.

Robby my librarian is on her own and still has a mortgage. She does not have a computer at home. She would have to pay to use the library computers and they are really expensive rates to use the internet. I think the rates are high to pay for updates of software and maintenance of the computer. I am very fortunate that I was able in 1996 to buy my first computer and now I get the kids cast off ones or get updates whichever comes first. The PCs are much more expensive over here than in the States even if you take the exchange rate into consideration. I know if she could join in she would. She is the loveliest Scottish lady, she is the childrens official librarian and also helps me wonderfully to find books I will enjoy. I have a spare computer which one day I will be able to give away when the kids give me the next cast off! Having two computers has kept me pretty much continually on line even when disaster has struck like the hard drive crashing and the virus I got recently.

I am enjoying this discussion very much.

Carolyn

As we enter Durant's third element of civilization (Moral Traditions), he calls to our attention that "for the most part the common people, like persons of moderate income everywhere, contented themselves with monogamy. Family life was apparently as well-ordered, as wholesome in moral tone and influence, as in the highest civilizations of our time. Divorce was rare until the dacadent dynasties.

"The husband could dismiss his wife without compensation if he detected her in adultery. If he divorced her for other reasons, he was required to turn over to her a substantial share of the family property. The fidelity of the husband was as painstaking as in any later culture, and the position of woman was more advanced than in most countries today."

Note the GREEN quotes above.

Robby

BARBARA - you make a sound argument for a more intense effort to protect natural resources in order to sustain the way of life - and to improve it - that we have become accustomed to. But in recent weeks, the environment has become only one issue of concern for Americans, who are contending with the obvious breakdown of our intelligence, the possibility of biological terror within our boundaries, and the very real threat that terrorists already reside amongst us. Similar perhaps to what the ancient Egyptians had to keep a watch for as they "progressed" in all areas of their civilization. Perhaps there was not the issue of anthrax, although they raised cattle and farmers died sometimes mysterious deaths. Trade was extended to far-away lands and brought goods - and people unaccustomed to Egyptian life - back within the borders. Domestic terrorism might very well have existed and the mighty Egyptian armies perhaps were called forth to put down those efforts.

We have also read that punishments were harsh for some crimes; disfigurement was a common practice; and many people died young. That recalls a discussion we have had in the CARAVANS forum about "cruelty without malice," which I see Mal had noted above. If I might go back a few steps. . . .

The sense of cruelty (especially that which seems extreme to us in the West) is obviously a part of ancient history. Recently, Afghan leaders laughed at American journalists who questioned the fighting and exchange of violence between men of the same clan. One of the leaders laughed and said "that's just natural; that how we are; don't pay any attention." Violence, harshness towards a fellow fighter from the same clan and perhaps injury or death seems to be no more of a concern to those around than the difference between brown eyes and blue.

That "cruelty without malice" is NOT well understood in the West is shown time and again in our news reports, which dwell on the minute details of how combatants died. Yet in the West, aren't we also cruel? Of course, but our cruelty often is combined with malice And perhaps we question "how can one be cruel without malice?" When young people display anger AND cruelty, that rings bells and counselers are alerted. When children harm pets, their cruelty is viewed as "unnatural." When adults harm children or those who are unable to defend themselves, we think of psychological deficiencies and race for professional assistance.

Yet in the ancient world, whether it is ancient Egypt or contemporary Afghanistan (which in many cases is still "ancient") cruelty without malice is simply commited to achieve a goal: to remove "obstacles." Even the murder of women and children (as happened in some areas through which the Taliban fled the Northern Aliance) is not viewed as being extremely cruel. "Nothing personal," just that those people were simply "in the way." In any war campaign, there is always the order - held back most of the time in the Western forces - "take no prisoners." To the combatants that command is well understood and not necessarily discussed at length.

As we read Durant's comments about ancient Egypt, can we also see in his comments the explanation for the behavior of violence ("extreme" as it may be to us in the West)we also are learning about in Afghanistan. In some cases, the ancient world still exists in our 21st century - especially in the Middle East and Central Asia. And as we read text or online comments about Egypt from the comfort of our own homes, we must realize that cruelty without malice is a normal part of cultures far removed from those of us in North America or what we consider "civilized" by our standards.

Mal made a fine point in an earlier comment that it is impossible for her to thoroughly understand (and thus be able to judge fairly) about other cultures unless one has lived in them for some time. Thus, although we are reading about ancient cultures (and enjoying the shared discussions very much), we still cannot understand them "well" any more than Afghanistan can be really understood by people who have not lived in that region.

Acceptance of "Cruelty without malice" is difficult for me to understand. I have to search for western examples. None come readily to mind. The killing of war prisoners at Malmaison simply because no facilities were available to house and care for prisoners was done as an expedient of retreat. That's what the Taliban did in it's escape from bombing. It destroyed whatever was in the way of it's retreat. Fear leads to cruel acts without malice.The mob enforcer who performs cruel acts for money is another example. But none of these acts are considered acceptable behavior in the west. They are all punishable as criminal acts.

Matriarchal and Patriarchal customs often produce undesirable results. Dominance by women in the old Egyptian dynasties led to incest in order to keep the money in the family. Marriage between brother and sister and between father and daughter was common. Clearly, the bad effects of incest were not recognized at the time even though the practice lasted 1000 years or more-till the Greeks came. With the Greeks came patriarchcal control and with it increased infanticide and the enslavement of women. Both customs are undesirable. The contemporary west has only in recent years begun to overcome male dominance in society and in the family. The glass ceiling is still with us. But we are making progress. In the 1920,s Elizabeth cady Stanton and mrs. Pankhurst brought women the vote in the U.S. and in England. In the 30's Margaret Sanger releived women of the burden of uncontrolled child bearing. Carley Fiorina is making cracks in the glass ceiling. The lesson from Egypt is neither male nor female in a dominant role but each with equal rights and powers.

JUSTIN - Indeed, cruelty without malice, is NOT a western concept, thus not readily accepted (and less well understood). However, as we have read about in this discussion as well as in the recent press reports, it is an integral part of Oriental culture. The response to killing prisoners for lack of space to hold them would be a tight-lipped "this is war" and not much else said about the topic. I think the idea of cruelty (excluding actual killing) between genders, between families, clans and tribes is the concept I was trying to articulate. Whereas we in the West go out of our way to protect, preserve and enrich human life, that is NOT the concept in the East. However, we also have customs here which are totally BARBARIC to the Oriental mind. One example comes readily to mind: nursing homes for the elderly; refusal of sons and daughters to take care of their parents/grandparents in their own homes because the houses "are not set up" for that kind of care. This is a topic that can be talked to shreds and a clear understanding will NEVER be reached by someone from the East. So as we read and learn about the ancient customs, some may seem strange to us, others silly or absurd. But they fit the culture in which they occurred.

Refusing to give people medical care because they are poor and cannot pay. This to me is barbaric. It goes on here where people are sent away from medical centres if they cannot pay. It is not supposed to happen here but it does. An instance sending an obviously poor person home with a tooth abscess. They could pull the tooth and administer antibiotics. The govt will pay some of the cost. A tooth abscess if left long enough can be life threatening. Mums Dr is Indian and he treats anybody.

Carolyn

"Oh, East is East, and West is West,
and never the twain shall meet,
Till Earth and Sky stand presently
at God's great Judgment Seat."

- - - Rudyard Kipling

WRITTEN ON THE BOULAK PAPYRUS

"Thou shalt never forget thy mother....For she carried thee long beneath her breast as a heavy burden, and after thy months were accomplished she bore thee. Three long years she carried thee upon her shoulder, and gave thee her breast to thy mouth. She nurtured thee, and took no offense from thy uncleanliness. And when thou didst enter school, and wast instructed in the writings, daily she stood by the master with bread and beer from the house."

Please let me be clear - in the East there is no concept and therefore no effort made "to protect, preserve and enrich human life,"? Assuming that an ideology acted upon requires a concept of the idea.

From the sentence "...we in the West go out of our way to protect, preserve and enrich human life, that is NOT the concept in the East."

BARBARA - in every example of East vs West there has to be a general understanding, as well as that pertinent to a specific incident, cultural value, regional mannerism, etc. One cannot take each statement literally. When I mentioned "concept," it is a term familiar to this readership. I did not mean to convey that those in the East NEVER protect and provide for their own. Not true!

Just as there are acts of barbarism (in the Western sense)in the East, there are also acts of unheralded generosity, protection, kindness and attempts to strengthen and retain dignity ("save face", which in English sounds pompous, but in the Eastern languages is at the heart of many issues).

One of the easiest examples that comes to mind is that a Muslim can request of any other Muslim - anywhere in the world - that protection be offered for a certain period of time (usually 3 days). It doesn't have to be in times of war; it can be for a common reason.

For example, when I travel in the Middle East I always identify myself as Muslim and claim "the right of protection" from a taxi driver. Thus, his dignity comes into play and he knows that I KNOW that he is supposed to care for me safely until we reach my destination. There are all kinds of phrases that I could use to assure that there would be no misunderstanding. If the driver is much younger, I can call him "My Son," and he is pleased. It would be common for him then to refer to me, very politely as "My Mother" or "Auntie."

My Western appearance should not be considered in the situation. I claimed his protection. Period! And as a Muslim, he is then honor-bound to respond positively. As the commuter traffic in the metropolitan Washington DC area where I live has increased and there are more Muslim taxi drivers, I found that this is an excellent way to get a cab at the airport quickly, assure a pleasant ride and NOT get bilked out of a highly inflated fare.

This is a very simple example of "protection," but in the Muslim (especially Arab) world it is important. And it works (especially in Washington and New York City). And if the driver happens to be Egyptian, I can immediately begin complaining about my Egyptian husband and the driver will be thrown into fits of laughter, ending usually in his attempts to refuse payment from me. I insist "for the sake of the children, so you may not refuse me by God's Grace." He has to accept payment then!

Boy, what a can of worms was opened. My fault. Let me say this: the people in the East are NOT unaware of death and do Protect and preserve life as well as they are able:

When a child dies, as many, very many do, it is not unexpected, it is also mourned. However, life in so much of the East and Central Asia is a day to day hour by hour fight for survival that mourning is silent and personal. When they can those people mourn publicy and loudly.

Those people miss someone who dies. they are not that hardbitten. But if you are scrambling to survive and help your family to survive you continue the fight and move on.

Malhia brought up the fact the those in the East think it is Barbaric to put the old people in homes or the refusal to bring the elderly into ones home.

The people in the East do protect and perserve life, in their old. For many it is the old who retain valuable knowledge; the family history; who as long as they are able, help with the household chores and mind the Children releasing the younger people for more productive work.

I brought up the Eskimo in another discussion. In the past when a person grew old and was no longer able to contribute useful, productive work for the family that person was put out on the ice, with a knife. The person's destiny was either being killed by a Polar Bear; dying of exposure; dying of starvation; or killing themselves with the knife. Cruel? perhaps, but with no malice in it. In the Eskimo world when one could not provide for the general welfare of the family and was merely consuming food, without producing anthing, one's usefulness was at and end. the burden on the family would be too great. So, out on the ice. they old EXPECTED it. They probably put their parents out on the ice too.

The Eskimo, as the people in the East, missed and mourned their dead but life, for them, didn't allow them much time for either.

The CONCEPT may not be articulated but it is there in the tradition of reverence for the elderly it is through the wisdom of the old people that life is preseved, enriched and enhanced. The elderly pass that wisdom on and it is that which does those three things for life in the East.

Tiger Tom

Trevor, I've been thinking all day about your question in your post 171. What makes a Nation great?I keep changing my ideas, such as a system of justice, care for the elderly, the handicapped and the young,a great Education System.Great writers, sculptors, artists and musicians?

I guess you have to be big and powerful too, or someone will remove you very soon! What did you decide?

Jan from Australia

cruelty without Malice

If someone deliberately humiliates or embarasses another person with intent to hurt, that someone is being cruel, with malice. If, on the other hand, someone thinks that it would be funny to others, so that someone pulls a chair back as another person is going to sit down on it. Person falls and there is laughter. The person who pulled out the chair offers a hand to the guy on the floor. The guy on the floor gets up and slugs the person who pulled out the chair causing him to fall. Guy who gets slugged is on the floor in his turn. He is nursing a sore nose, the guy on the floor says: "What did you do that for, I didn't mean anything." the guy who pulled out the chair was being Cruel with out malice. That is rather simple but should explain it.

If you might have become a prisoner of the Mongol, Tartars, Afghans or other peoples of Central Asia; and one day one them who held you prisoner came up and laid a red hot iron on some part of your body causing you to yell, jump around and writhe in pain, to the amusment and laughter of those standing about that person was being cruel without malice. The person was intent on amusing others, the person didn't have anything against you personally, probably didn't even consider you. You were merely an object to amuse others. No malice toward you in it. but damned cruel.

In the West when something like that is done, it is done with intent to harm and there is always malice in it. The fact that it might amuse others who are around is just a little added gravy.

Man, I made a hash of that, didn't I?

Tiger Tom

I have not posted because this discussion has been on the East sometimes referred to as the Middle East and I am not familiar with the customs in the area.

However, when you refer to the Mongols that is Asia or the Far East and then the statements that have been made here as generalizations for the East become wrong when applied to the Far East.

China and Japan have the concept of the extended family, and the social welfare system is far better for seniors than anything in the US.

I do not wish to get into this subject as we are in the Middle East and I defer to you who know more about it than I do. All I ask is that we are careful not to extend the generalizations too far towards the East lest we stray into error.

Jere

I have been made aware of the generosity of the East as home, tea, and protection is given trying to please Allah when I read Dervla Murphy's and later corresponded with her about her bicycle journey in 1963 from Ireland, through Europe across Iran, Afghanistan, through the Khyber Pass taking a donkey through the Karakoram Mountains, biking again to places that included the Kagan Valley ending up in Delhi - there were stays at convents as well as mountain huts and in the homes of some government leaders in power at the time. She had some facinating discussions with women. Among the topics shared she learned women she met were please with arranged marriages since they see the priority and most important the man be a good father to their children.

What is still confusing me is, hospitality regardless of wealth and in the name of Allah does enrich human life but, how does the East provide a community assurence, an organized protection, preserving and providing opportunity for the people to enrich their lives. How does the culture of the East historically and currently protect human life. How does the East provide opportunity for the people to enrich their life other than encouraging the study of Islam? How is life protected and preserved other than by the elder in the family protecting and preserving to the best of their economic ability. What systems assure growth in the standard of living, the standard of health, education, increased business that is based on adding value to a resource and effecting the economics among the average Eastern family.

If these questions are not in keeping with this discussion of Egypt then Robby suggest a way that they could be answered please - I am truely trying to understand the difference between the East and West. I hope to learn where to look to appreciate the protection, preservation and life enrichment afforded the people of the Middle East and how that protection, preservation and life enrichment can be traced back as a way of life emanating out of ancient Egypt.

Jere:--Good to heard from you again! While I realize you may feel a bit more at home discussing China and Japan, I hope you throw in your thoughts here from time to time. China and Japan will be discussed as we cover the latter chapters of "Our Oriental Heritage." For those not in the know, Jere alternates between living in the USA and Japan.

Barbara:--"Enriching one's life, growth in the standard of living, the standards of health and education, etc. most definitely fit into our current sub-topic (see GREEN quotes above) of Moral Traditions.

In line with that, I have a question. As we continue to examine early Middle East civilizations and we simultaneously examine our own, does the title of the book we are reading, "Our Oriental Heritage," begin to make any sort of sense?

Robby

Any reaction to the quote which begins "Even in courtship...?"

Robby

It is impossible to write about how a woman chooses a mate in all societies of the world. There are just too many aspects to examine. The age of the woman, the society in which she lives, the moral codes applied, the education she received, the culture, the economic status etc.

One thing remains anywhere is that a woman instinctively seeks a partner who will be able to support her during the time she is to bear and raise young children (diamonds are a girl’s best friend

. In a society where women marry while barely out of childhood, it is obvious that her parents should choose for her.

In my opinion when a woman chooses a mate, he should able to support her in the early years of her marriage in order for her to be able to look after her infants, otherwise the strain of working outside the home will have grave consequences on her, her children and her partner even in the Western World we live in.

When a woman is still young and pretty, she can definitely decide whom she wants to marry (I am using the term very broadly). Women, even if they might not have the skills, are born with all the attributes they need – and they are not necessarily physical - to attract the male of her choice and many achieve a long lasting relationship that satisfies most of her aspirations.

Most young people in the West seek romance, thinking that this is essential for the duration of the partnership, while reality demonstrates quite another thing. Romance is seldom part of a lifelong relationship, it is very rare indeed. After a few years, a complicity develops that both recognize as being essential for a satisfying life. Total respect of one another is essential.

Eloïse

Eloise:--Are you implying (or perhaps even stating) that our civilization is no different from that of Ancient Egypt in that it is the woman who "takes the initiative?"

Robby

Robby I think Eloise opened by saying there are too many ways that this choice is made to even suggest if "women" take the initiative. As you interview women in your own hometonw I am sure you will find as many women wo give suptle hints as those that take charge as those who are swept off their feet as those who marry because it seems sensible on and on. -

Robby - Yes I am, while making sure that men THINK he is taking the initiative, which is part of her skills. Mata Hari came to my mind a while back. In espionnage, women take the intiative and men fall for it and sometimes as Cleopatra did, changing the entire destiny of a whole nation.

The Ancient Egyptian women were not so subtle. Witness:--

"Oh, my beautiful friend, my desire is to become, as thy wife, the mistress of all thy possessions."

Says Durant:--:Modesty, as distinct from fidelity, was not prominent among the Egyptians. They spoke of sexual affairs with a directness alien to our late morality, adorned their very temples with pictures and bas-reliefs of startling anatomical candor, and supplied their dead with obscene literature to amuse them in the grave.

"Girls were nubile at ten, and premarital morals were free and easy. One courtesan, in Ptolemaic days, was reputed to have built a pyramid with her savings. Even sodomy had its clientele."

Just who is immoral here (if anybody) -- Ancient Egyptian citizens or those in Western Civilization?

Robby

It seems to me that in the society I know here in the United States a woman must let a man know in various ways that she is ready and willing to get married, i.e. mate and settle down to raise a family.

In my own case (and I can't speak for anyone else) I did not consider whether or not the man I chose for a husband was able to support me and a family. He was 15 years old when I met him; was the most intelligent boy or man I'd ever known, was an accomplished musician, and I knew immediately that I was going to marry him, no matter how long I had to wait.

Though I was two years older than he, we were both very young; both wanted to go to college, and knew if we were to marry, the wedding date would be a long time away from the day we first met.

There was an almost obsessive need to be together, not easy when I went away to attend a college over 100 miles away from where he was. Despite the distance in miles between us with his being at a university in Rhode Island and I at a college in Massachusetts, the bond was very strong, and six years after we met we were married. I know I wrote to him nearly every day when we were separated and could not see each other.

As I think about it, I realize we married the potential we thought we saw in each other.

He certainly fulfilled the criterion of being the type of man who would support his wife and family well. I did not fulfill his idea of what a wife and mother should be, since I had been groomed from childhood to nurture and develop various talents I had and thought their part in my life was as important as my role as wife and mother, a fact he should have realized early, since from an early age I had practiced and performed music publicly as he well knew. It was in fact my performing of music and his love of music which initially brought us together.

It's interesting that Durant says of men and women in Egypt that they "spoke of sexual affairs with a directness alien to our later morality". Conditions are not the same now. Now young men and women talk about their affairs quite openly, something my generation did not do -- at least the women did not.

I believe that women in this country take the initiative as Egyptian women did only in displaying (as for example peahens do) that they are willing to mate, not necessarily today with the man who is to become a lifetime partner.

Mal

Only God passes judgment on what and who is immoral. We have to live in our own time, our society, our moral values, our traditions, our laws just as Egyptians did. They lived a totally different life from ours. It was a young society who had a voice. Time had not tempered and wisened? their mind. Age changes the way we think. Thank God.

A word about immorality in the 40's:

It was thought immoral to participate in sex without the benefit of marriage in the 40's. If one did, it was done in a very hidden way. I was very surprised when I first discovered that some of my peers had sex with their future spouses and others long before marriage. I am less surprised today because I know so many who did.

There was a greater element of guilt in those days about doing such a thing. What would parents do if they found out?

There was also a fear among females that they would become pregnant that exists much less today.

What I'm saying is that what was considered by many to be licentiousness and immorality at that time went on in the 40's, the 30's and every decade before that. One has only to read about those times to learn that this is true.

So then, how different are we, our ancestors and our progeny from Ancient Egyptians?

Mal

Is the woman who "takes the initiative" immoral? Were the Ancient Egyptian citizens immoral? I do not think so. They were honest to their own code.

In our culture a woman can show her legs and some more dressed in minis and nothing seems wrong. In Africa, on the other hand, they show their breast unashamedly but have their legs covered almost to the ground.

When King Baudouin of Belgium came on his first official visit to Congo, around '57 I think, the whole population white and black lined the avenues where the parade was to pass. At the last minute the official in charge was horrified to see that all the native women in their fineries were bosom naked. The King was known to be a fervent catholic and a very shy young man. This was explained to the women and they were asked to cover themselves on the royal limousine's passage. It caused a lot of comments and gestures. The surprise was how as one the women raised their long skirts over their shoulders and covered even their heads, exposing... something else! The King, with flaming cheeks, never moved his head right nor left and kept a very stern face for the whole slow drive through town.

Bubble

The judgement of what is moral and immoral seems to me presumptuous. Immorality is just different from morality. Who are we to judge what is moral or immoral particularly in different societies and at different times?

Jere

Of relevance is the fact that Durant does not designate the third element of Civilization as "Morality" but "Moral Traditions" -- a decided difference.

Robby

Hello Jere - as Robby posted earlier, it's certainly good to see you posting here.

Your point about who are we to judge certainly rings true. Not only in the discourse of our reading about ancient Egypt (and earlier Sumeria and primitive man), but also in the face of the world events we face today. We can read and learn; enjoy our discussions; offer our opinions, thoughts, questions for consideration and further reflection, but hardly are in a position to truly judge. It is always interesting to me to think about "what if" in the sense that if I were a citizen of the ancient culture, but with the mind of the modern woman, how would I behave, fit in, make friends (enemies), etc.

ELOISE - I enjoy your comments, but wonder if young woman who cotnemplate marriage are REALLY mature enough to consider making a selection of a spouse in terms of his ability to support them. I married very young and certainly was not concerned about whether my husband could support me. I was raised to be confident of my own intelligence, skills, abilities, etc. Thus, it was a matter of further developing a friendship within marriage - a partnership, if you will - rather than seeking a husband to support me.

I am reminded of a very dear friend, who is now the president of a large university. She has been married for many years and is the mother of five children (all adults now). During her climb through academe, she often mentioned that without the experience of raising five children, maintaining a household and "partnering" with a husband who was also an academic and later, an administator, she would NOT have had the skills and experience to manage a marge institution. She joked "that carpool and soccer scheduling really came in handy!"

I laughed when I read Durant's quotations about how ancient Egyptian women wanted to become the mistresses of all their husbands owned. Not really too different from Egyptian women today - they just don't admit it!

Jere, I agree that judgment of morality and moral traditions is presumptuous. I also think there have been moral codes and traditions in every civilization up to today.

There can be personal moral codes. I believe the killing of human beings is immoral under any circumstances, but it's obvious to me that a majority in my country do not agree.

Mal

Mahlia - No, adolescents who marry or who start a family without that, do not have the maturity to analyze the potential earning capacity of the man she chooses. They just FALL IN LOVE, with the known results. But you stated that you instinctively chose a mate who could fulfill your expectations with 'intelligence, skill, abilities', a skill that many many young women today are losing in favor of chosing a mate who will only fulfills her romantic goals.

Your friend who has 5 children had: a very supportive husband, ample financial means and the intelligence to manage this enormous task adequately. Such is not the case of the majority of ordinary people I am talking about.

The changing values of the younger generation are due to several factors, too broad to elaborate here. They are happily charging ahead without their parent's advice making their own mistakes and wondering who is responsible for their failures. Are we? Please tell me if you know.

Eloïse

Increasingly, young people are taking care in choosing a mate. I have heard discussions amongst young people which very much take into account the career choice and the income potential of the future wife or husband they would choose. This has been more noticable in the last decade.

Carolyn

In the context of young people and some of their mistakes, I can't help but think of young John Warner and the heartbreak that his parents in California are experiencing as they witness him become a focus of the international news as he is debriefed about his exploits with the Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. Then in our region, the three young people who recently murdered a highly respected scientist in a "cult-related" attack earlier in the week. The horror of these examples are easily understood, as is the heartbreak of the parents and other family members, but the motives less so.

Yes ELOISE, there are exceptions in each case and perhaps my friend is one of them. And as MAL points out, there are also the young people who are headed for good professions and want to make sure that their partners are also. Thus, they discuss and plan and review in their minds who will be the good partners. Love has to come in somewhere - not the romance of Hollywood - but the lifelong commitment to respect and honor and decency that is the rockbed of any relationship.

"In general, the Egyptians were the Americans of antiquity -- enamored of size, given to gigantic engineering and majestic building, industrious and accumulative, practical even in the midst of many ultramundane superstitions. They were the arch-conservatives of history. The more they changed, the more they remained the same.

"Through forty centuries their artists copied the old conventions religiously. They appear to us, from their monuments, to have been a matter-of-fact people, not given to non-theological nonsense. They had no sentimental regard for human life, and killed with the clear conscience of nature. Egyptian soldiers cut off the right hand, or the phallus of a slain enemy, and brought it to the proper scribe that it might be put into the record to their credit."

Note the new GREEN quotes above.

Robby

"In the later Dynasties the people, long accustomed to internal peace and to none but distant wars, lost all military habits and qualities, until at last a few Roman soldiers sufficed to master all Egypt."

I wonder what we can learn from this.

Robby

Beware of all Romans, unless they are named Count de Lucca.

Mahlia:--"You'll need to explain that inside joke to those who weren't in the other discussion group.

Robby

Count de Lucca? I don't remember him Mahlia.

Robby - Re Post 219 First paragraph, but also we have the latest in military preparedness, in scientific achievement and space technology, in economic suppremacy. Perhaps we are lacking still the ability to pin-point the specific flaw in our system that could have prevented the attack of September 11. What is our Achille's heel?

Éloïse

OK, being a smart aleck is its own punishment!

ELOISE - Count de Lucca refers to Robby's explanation in another discussion about the origin of his name: Ia de Lucca

If I may respond from a personal standpoint - our (American) Achille's Heel is the tremendous disregard of reports from abroad as well as internally during the past few years about the SERIOUSNESS of a terrorist trike against America within its own borders. There have been numerous reports brought to the attention of the country's leadership (Executive, Senate, House); there have been reports from specialists in varying aspects of terrorism (domestic and international); there have been reports from communication and medical specialists; and there have been some (although certainly NOT enough) from intelligence abroad.

Whether it is American cultural arrogance or not, we have to decide for ourselves. I am speaking from the standpoint of being from a military family; having lived, worked and traveled in the Middle East and Cenral Asia; and worked with numerous people in the field whose life's work has been dedicated to this topic.

Without doubt, another major component of our weakness is the lack of substantial on-the-ground intelligence (human intelligence, people serving in various capacities who can report back to the American leadership)developed by individuals who speak the foreign language(s) of the countries they are working in; who understand the customs, culture, nuances of behavior, relations between genders, regionalisms, etc. The American government and educational system has failed miserably in not encouraging - and in some cases actually forcing - our students to not only study but become fluent in at least one foreign language before they matriculate. It is essential!

Foreign languages, coupled with the ability for human intelligence to infiltrate Al Qaeda and its sub-groups around the world would have gone a long way to forestall what America experienced on Sept. 11th.

Howard Schack's book A Spy in Canaan is about an American Jewish businessman, whose construction business takes him regularly throughout the Middle East and how his travels in ther egion helped Israel. He recieved no money from the Mossad - not even for reimbursable expenses - but his groundwork was vital to the security of Israel during the 70's and 80's.

An American Causaian would NOT have been able to infiltrate the Arab/Afghan Al Qaeda. But a second or third generation American of similar heritage would have been able to do so. Language and multicultural training are absolutely essential! The Royal Canadian Mounted Police recognize this; the Canadian Air Force recognizes this; but still the Americans tend to downplay language and cultural skills. And until that is remedied, our Achille's Heel will be remain obvious to terrorists around the world who want to harm or destroy Americans and the United States.

I don't think the world as we know it is coming to an end, nor do I think young people are going to hell in a hand basket, but I do think it is almost impossible to win a War Against Terrorism in the way we're trying to win it.

We've perhaps been overconfident in the United States because we have a strong military force and we're surrounded by two oceans. We'll fix the Achilles heels that we recognize, and someone will come in and do damage to this country regardless because, for whatever reason, this group or that one feels that our system of government is wrong, it has been hurt or deprived because of the United States, or we do not give enough of our prosperity to countries and people here who are in economic need.

It is not just the Al Quaeda who have grievances against us and have cells in this country. We pay little or no attention to the Neo-Nazi groups here and extremist militia groups who do us harm. Timothy McVeigh, you remember, was a member of a militia group. There are other groups like this right here in this country.

The Southern Poverty Law Center sends out information about these groups to anyone who wants to receive it. It works to defend and help protect people all over this country, especially those who are considered minorities. It also works very hard to teach tolerance in schools and by mail to many, many people. If you want to know what's going on and who's against you right here, write to the Southern Poverty Law Center and ask them to send you information about things you probably don't know exist.

Now back to Our Oriental Heritage. I am amused by the statement above in GREEN about men, women, girls and boys having their ears pierced at the time of the eighteenth dynasty. And we thought we were original?

I also very much want to thank whoever it is that changes the heading as often as it must be changed in this discussion. It is a job well done and little acknowledged, in my estimation.

Mal

even with my limited knowledge I think the eventual downfall of any civilization after time is inevitable. This link takes you to a short essay that says what I wish I could say

http://perso.club-internet.fr/nicol/ciret/english/visionen.htm

A new vision of the world Transdisciplinarity a short quote:

The process of the decline of civilizations is one of enormous complexity and its roots lie deeply buried in the most profound obscurity. Of course one can find multiple after the fact explanations and rationalizations without ever successfully dispelling the feeling that there is an irrational element at work in the very heart of the process. From the great masses to the great decision makers, the actors in a very well-defined civilization, even if they become more or less aware of the processes of decline, appear powerless to stop the fall of their civilization. unquote

I have been looking for one specific reason for "downfalls" So far I find none. And also I do not find a huge crash and burn of a civilization either just sort of a fading away from the forefront of historians interest. What wonderful things the Eygptians might have been continuing to do with their lives and knowledge even after Rome marched over her borders, we don't know. reference books I can find dont go into any detail of the next few thousand years of what happened after the fall of the Eighth dynasty (hope I got that right). As later on we will see in other world history of civilizations ...fp

"Their clothing ran through every gradation from primitive nudity to the gorgeous dress of Empire days. Children of both sexes went about, till their teens, naked except for ear-rings and necklaces. The girls, however, showed a beseeming modesty by wearing a string of beads around the middle. Servants and peasants limited their everyday wardrobe to a loin-cloth. Under the Old Kingdom free men and women went naked to the navel, and covered themselves from waist to knees with a short, tight skirt of white linen.

"Since shame is a child of custom rather than of nature, these simple garments contented the conscience as completely as Victorian petticoats and corsets, or the evening dress of the contemporary American male. Our virtues lie in the interpretation of the time. Even the priests, in the first dynasties, wore nothing but loin-cloths."

Robby

Mal:--To answer your question, I make the periodic changes. Marjorie originally set up the coding for the Heading and I regularly replace the words (with my trusty Volume One by my side!)

Well, Doctor Robby, you are to be congratulated.
I can remember when you didn't know how to make a link!

Mal

Thank you, Marjorie, for all you do for SeniorNet and us.

Mal

I see at least two serious failures in the way Americans conduct foreign relations. The first is concerned with our ambassadorial appointments.We tend to send illprepared cronies of the President to hot spots in the world. There are many examples. One that is outstanding is Pat Hurley who was sent to China during WWII and who blundered badly. The second failure concerns language, as Mahlia points out. I frequently find references in the press about people assigned to countries with out fluency in the appropriate foreign language. U.S. high schools have never taught more than grammar and reading fluency. I live in an area in California inhabited by large numbers of immigrants who are Spanish speaking people.They work the farms and the home gardens of suburbanites who encroach upon them. I do not speak Spanish nor do my neighbors. We try, instead,to force the new comers to speak English and we complain when they do not understand us. " That dumb gardner,I have, he doesn't understand anything I tell him." The immigrants are in our schools and we teach them in English not bilingually. They score low on educational tests and we wonder the cause. Mahlia, you are so right. We are blind sometimes to own arrogance and our own failures. This, I think, is our achille's heel-the failure to learn foreign languages.

What thoughts come to your mind when you read the quote which begins "the people and their rulers?"

Robby

What about the many, many translators the United States hires and uses for diplomatic and other reasons? Are we not to trust them?

I don't know about you, but I studied Latin, French, Italian and some Russian and German. I am able to read Italian and French, and "get along" reading Russian and German. Because of the first three languages I studied, I am also able to read, understand and comprehend Spanish.

My sixteen year old grandson has studied Spanish since he was in the third grade. He has been studying German for three years and reads and understands both languages. My nine year old grandson studies Spanish and French. I personally don't think we are as language poor as some would have us believe.

Mal

I forgot to mention that because my nine year old grandson is being raised Jewish, he also studies Hebrew.

Mal

MAL - I was speaking specifically of being language deficient within the State Dept, Foreign Service posts abroad and most especially, the American intelligence community. There are an abundance of translators (many of whom are foreign born or second, third generation), but they do not necessarily have a background in intelligence. Our American police and intelligence services (especially FBI and CIA) have a dearth of Middle Eastern, Central Asian and Far Eastern anguage speakers. Thus, there lack of being able to deal with crimes among those communities in the USA is ongoing. In this sense, I think of the Asian gangs in most of the large American cities. Same is true to a lesser extent with Spanish speakers. The average police officer "who has Spanish language skills" may be able to speak "conversational" Spanish, but would not necessarily know the difference between Central American Spanish and that from Mexico - thus not being able to dependably understand the different jargon of the street.

In the CARAVANS discussion, Tom speaks to the lack of solid foreign language skills among the foreign posts and how, unfortunately, foreign nationals took advantage of their American Post Officers - often to severe extremes. These stories are legion within the Service!

BTW, individuals like yourself would be an absolute treasure in US Govt. service. I'm pleased to hear about your grandson's multilingual skills. Bravo to him and keep up the good work. If he can segue from classical Hebrew to conversational Hebrew, even better.

There being no further comments about Moral Traditions, let us move on to Durant's Fourth Element of Civilization -- Knowledge and the Arts.

"The teacher's function was to produce scribes for the clerical work of the state. To stimulate his pupils, he wrote eloquent essays on the advantages of education. Said one edifying papyrus: 'Give thy heart to learning, and love her like a mother for there is nothing so precious as learning.' It is a misfortune to be a soldier, writes an early bookworm. It is a weariness to till the earth. The only happiness is 'to turn the heart to books during the daytime and to read during the night.'"

In an earlier posting about Law, Durant told us of criminals being slowly "embalmed to death" with corrosive acid. Now we hear Egyptians saying that "there is nothing so precious as learning."

Were the Ancient Egyptians primitive or civilized?

Robby

Looks like the ancient Egyptians were importers of OIL!?! from the Saudi Arabian peninsula!

Were the Ancient Egyptians primitive or civilized?

By whose standards? Ours or theirs?

Mal; I studied Latin, French, and Italian. I always have a French novel in progress. At the moment it is Salambo by Flaubert.The issue however, is not can one read and understand but can one speak and understand when addressed and when one overhears conversation. That I think is essential for foreign service. Translators give one little but the words. None of the nuances are thus made available.

The Egyptians were civilized of course. They met Durant's four criteria for a civilization. Were they civilized to the degree that the west is civilized today? Ofcourse not. However, in some areas perhaps they were more civilized than we are. They were able function in society with greater nudity and less shame than we experience in similar roles.

I now have the book in my hot little hand. Its hardback and what a tome! As someone previously said you would not want to take it to bed with you. It is so big and heavy.

Carolyn

Am I civilized or uncivilized.....I would like to see Osama Bin Laden undergo the embalming treatment the Egyptians used for punishment....

Carolyn:--

CONGRATULATIONS!! Patience paid off! We are now on Page 171 under Section 6 (Letters) and, of course, the GREEN quotes above help to see where we are.

Robby

Durant continues about education in Ancient Egypt:--

"The chief topic of pedagogic discourse was virtue and the chief problem, as ever, was discipline. We read:--

'Do not spend thy time in wishing, or thou wilt come to a bad end.'
'Let thy mouth read the book in thy hand. Take advice from those who know more than thou dost.'
'The youth has a back and attends when he is beaten, for the ears of the young are placed on the back.'
'Thou didst beat my back, and thy instructions went into my ear.'

That this animal-training did not always succeed appears from a papyrus in which a teacher laments that his former pupils love books much less than beer."

Sound familiar?

Robby

My brother who died last year was a Jesuit father. The education he received from them was priceless. Our mother tongue was French. His PhD was from the University of Paris and he lectured in English at the U. of Sudbury. He wrote his thesis in Italian and when Jesuits convened in Rome, they spoke Latin together because they all came from several countries. He also had some knowledge of German and Spanish.

I know a family in Montreal where the parents speak 4 languages simultaneously to their small children. Dutch, German, English but they go to French school because it is an immigration law.

My 6 children are all completely bilingual because to me no education is adequate unless one can speak and write a foreign language.

Durant says that subjects studied in Egypt were commercial, but that the chief topic was virtue with discipline a problem. It interests me that students were allowed to use paper in the higher grades. Durant mentions how that paper was made, so well in fact that 5000 year old manuscripts are legible today. I'd say offhand that this stiff paper made of papyrus was better than what is made today. Artists today, for example, have a terrible problem with paper that will not last very long at all. Paintings and manuscripts must be kept in air-tight containers in order to be preserved.

The alphabet consisted of 24 consonants, and Durant tells us that the written language was a combination of pictographs and homonyms. Durant says, "In this way the Egyptian arrived at the syllable, the syllabic sign and the syllabury......and by dividing dificult words into syllables, finding homonyms for these, and drawing in combination the objects suggested by these syllabic sounds, he was able, in the course of time, to make the hieroglyphic signs convey almost any idea." He also says that the Egyptians never used a completly alphabetic writing and suggests that "since English speech is no honorable guide to English spelling, it is probably as difficult for a contempoaray lad to learn the devious ways of English orthography as it was for the Egyptian scribe to memorize by use the five hundred hieroglyphics, their secondary syllabic meanings and their tertiary alphabetic uses." What a complicated procedure the evolution of the written language is!

Mal

I laughed Mahlia when I read: "de Lucca", what threw me was the double cc's.

I must tell you where I get that particle in my name, it has a very noble origin. My husband's ancestor's name was 'Sarazin' back in the 17th century and in Quebec because families were enormous, hundreds of people had that name and, as they used to do back then to create a split in a too common name, they called the Sarazins who lived in the Pelteau area 'Sarazin DIT de Pelteau' as Pelteau was a district. Then the name Sarazin was eventually dropped.

They all had the noble profession of FARMERS.

Eloïse

When it comes to language just as every other discipline - I think folks do what ever works to allow their life to work - Where ever we in the US are in an enviornment where additional skills are required there will be some that adapt those skills and others that will chaff at the concept of becoming more skilled - Here in Texas we have a large Mexican community - Ranchers and construction managers for the building of new homes better know their Spanish or their livelyhood and success is down the tube. Most of us know a bit of spanish and if our livelyhood depended on speaking spanish I have no doubt we would know more if nothing else than by attrition.

But look at the practicallity of other languages becoming our daily fare - The state of Texas is about as big as France - we are surrounded on three sides by other English speaking states where as the French cross their border and the language changes. Up until and even after WW2, it was most important to unite the various immagrants. In orde to do that, English became a national anthem.

I remember and still notice the children of immagrant families going to the grocery story and translating the cans of foods for the elders. Language unites a people and for so long feeling like an American was a priority in addition, teachers were hired to assure we became a united people. There are differences aplenty with foods, customes, culture seperating us into small conclaves that are like barriers that keep the "United States" citizen isolated.

No doubt it would be great to know more than one language well enough to pick up the nuances of meaning but, we are a large land mass nation that is attempting toward the unity of people so that this experiment in Democracy that requires imput from the people can go forward.

It would be nice that all our citizens understood finance, the intricacies of home ownership, the best care and support for their children's education on and on - but we know that is lacking as well. To fault this nation because it is more concerned with the advancement of Democracy that requires a certain level of education and a common tongue when the geography of this nation limits the daily need to interface with those with other native language I think is unnecessary. To have a problem with the success of this 'flawed' nation is suggesting that success requires a certain level of perfection - well we are all like those in the 'special olympics' and those that finish get the medel reqardless their impediments - And so anyone that has a gift or skill I would think would be better served in sharing and teaching rather than expecting others in the game to be proficient in that gift of skill.

We can all imagine being more skilled in areas of expertice that we enjoy would be better for everyone or at least those representing this country - but remember the basic tenent of adult education - "Adults learn best what they can compare to what they already know and to what they believe is required in order to attain their goal."

I do not think our knowing better the language or the culture of the middle East would have stopped Bin Laden. If this man were truely caring about the advancment of his people he would have taken all his wealth and built schools and a huge communication system that brought his people into the 20th century and in communication with the rest of the world. I believe the internet is making huge changes in this world and the idea of staying isolated unto your own culture no longer works. The internet is democratizing the world which is bring change to many areas of this world. That change can and will be met with fear by some. It is that fear that says I must control all others to my way. And so if it wasn't the World Trade Center it would have been something else.

As for anthrex - the unsettlement there is simply the exposure in a new way not typically a means for attracting this illness in an area of the country that does not expect anthrex - every year there is someone in this State or here in the cattle states that dies from anthrex - it is in the air we breath - everytime I drive over to College Station with my car windows open to visit my family I am at risk. We cann't out think a control freak as many a family member living in an abusive home learned. We cannot build a dome of protection around us by being fluent in other languages or by becoming perfect.

As a nation we were only thrust onto the world scene after WW1 and after WW2 we simply took off running and haven't stopped yet. If everyone will join the race they can even alter the course but you can't watch and comment how the race should be run unless you are in there offering your skills and gifts realizing they will not alway be seen to meet the needs of those you would like to influence.

This to me is basic salesmenship - I know from over 20 years of experience the better builders and better areas of town for future appriciation - not everyone I work with takes my advise but I still help them achieve their dream of home ownership without thinking they 'should' or are lacking because they do not share my skills or knowledge.

I most certainly like what you said, Barbara. I'm laughing because all I could think was "Put your money where your mouth is"!

Please click the link below to access a site where you'll see a table of Egyptian alphabetic hieroglyphic signs.

Egyptian pronunciation

How old do you think the story of Sinbad the Sailor is?

Durant tells us that "libraries have come down to us from as far back as 2000 B.C. -- papyri rolled and packed in jars, labeled, and ranged on shelves. In one such jar was found the oldest form of the story of Sinbad the Sailor, or, as we might rather call it, Robinson Crusoe.

'A storm burst while we were yet at sea....We flew before the wind and it made a wave eight cubits high. The ship perished and of them were in it not one survived. I was cast onto an island by a wave of the sea, and I spent three days alone with mine heart as my companion. I found figs and vines there, and all manner of fine leeks. There were fish there and fowl...When I had made me a fire-drill, I kindled a fire and made a burnt-offering for the gods.'"

Is there any such thing as "new" literature?

Robby

Thought is literature yet to be written down.

No there is nothing new under the sun, just new ways of looking at situations or age old plots!

Carolyn

Imagine that you have picked up a paperback of lyrics to Wagner's operas and read the following:--

"Hans and Eric, older and younger brothers, live happly on their farm until Hans' wife falls in love with Eric. He repulses her and she revenges herself by accusing him, to his brother, of having offered her violence.

"God comes to Eric's aid against Hans. However, Eric, disgusted with mankind, mutilates himself to prove his innocence. He goes out alone to live in the woods and places his heart unreachably high on the topmost flower of a tree. God, pitying his loneliness, creates for him a wife of such beauty that the enchanted river falls in love with her and steals a lock of her hair.

"Drifting down the stream, the lock is found by the King who, intoxicated by its scent, orders that the owner be found. She is found and brought to him. He marries her. Jealous of Eric, he sends men to cut down the tree on which Eric has placed his heart. The tree is cut down and, as the flower touches the earth, Eric dies."

In your mind the music rises at the end of this touching "opera." What if someone then tells you that the names had been changed and it was not a Wagner opera -- that this was a tale written in Egypt five thousand years ago!! Would you believe him?

Robby

Barbara - ". . .unless you are in there offering your skills and gifts realizing they will not alway be seen to meet the needs of those you would like to influence. . . ."

How true! Isn't it wonderful that we live in a country where people do just that throughout the year and across the Nation!

Robby - yes I would believe that the names of the charcters could be changed as well as the time frame. Throughout cultures around the world, one finds similar stories - some originating in the East which have transferred to the West. As we approach Christmas, think of the origin of so many of the stories (or customs) that we in the West associate only with Christmas, but other societies (even outside of Christianity) have known for centuries. Or that special days in the Western calendar, like Halloween, once had totally different meanings (and in some areas still do) than what we acknowledge.

Here we are a family international linguists- Mal, Barbara, Eloise, Justin, Mahlia, with all our friends and relatives who are international linguists. But when all is said and done the State Department remains without adequate linguistic proficiency and while a knowledge of Middle Eastern languages might not have stopped Bin Ladin it might help to uncover plots discussed just in front of our noses. .

Agree or disagree with quote above which begins with "All things flow...?"

Robby

There being no further interest in the Literature of Ancient Egypt, let us move on to Durant's next area of interest -- Science in Ancient Egypt. Durant tells us:--

"Like almost everything else in the cultural life of Egypt, medicine began with the priests, and dripped with evidences of its magical origins. Among the people amulets were more popular than pills as preventive or curative of disease. Disease was to them a possession by devils, and was to be treated with incantations. A cold, for instance, could be exorcised by such magic words as: 'Depart, cold, son of a cold, thou who breakest the bones, destroyest the skull, makest ill the seven openings of the head!...Go out on the floor, stink, stink, stink!'

"From such depths we rise in Egypt to great physicians, surgeons and specialists, who acknowledged an ethical code that passed down into the famous Hippocratic oath."

Any connection in our time between magic and medicine?

Robby

"I decline to accept the end of man. I believe that man will not only endure, he will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance."

- - - William Faulkner

I love the Faulkner quote. ". . . . man will not only endure, he will prevail." Yes!

Robby, you know there are some of us who are very involved with holiday preparations right now. I'm not, but yesterday was a WREX submittal deadline, always a busy day for me.

I'm most certainly interested in the literature of Egypt. That did, indeed, sound like the libretto of a Wagnerian opera, didn't it?

I loved the poetry Durant quoted. This little snippet is wonderful.

"Behold ye, when I went down to the swamp. . . . I saw a woman therein, and she looked not like a mortal being. My hair stood on end when I saw her tresses, because her color was so bright. Never will I do what she said; awe of her is in my body.

Imagine that there was a version of Cinderella way back in those times and fables in the style of the AEsop ones. Such wonderful stories Durant describes, and the variety he mentions is amazing to me. He says that the new (14th century B.C.) literature "was realistic, youthful, buoyant; it took delight in flouting the old forms and describing the new life." Just exactly as literature is today.

This is wonderful stuff for a writer and publisher to read.

Mal

I recognize that many are involved in holiday preparations and this affects our participation here. Thank you for reminding me of that, Mal. Certainly all participants are invited to either speak about the current sub-topic of Science or to refer to Literature. When you get right down to it, refer to Sumeria or Primitive Man if you wish. This is all part of the Story of Civilization and many items inter-relate.
What is your reaction, Mal, to Durant's comment that "the early literature of the Egyptians is largely religious." How about today's literature? Any similarity?
Robby

Robby - Faulkner is certainly saying what I believe. If I thought that there was no eternity, I wouldn't be as content as I am today, either as healthy, I think, because I have that peace of mind. The body is a temporary vase for the soul and leaving it behind will only be a relief as it gets more frail with passing years.

When you think of it, magic was the medicine of old. It served the same purpose, to cure illnesses and in medicine there is a little bit of magic when you see sheer miracles happening when a terminal patient is suddenly cured. Medicine and magic strive to preserve the body in spite of illness postponing the inevitability of death.

Eloïse

Robby:

There's a great deal of religious literature written and published today. There also is much written about faith, often faith in oneself in the form of self-help books that have a very big market. These can revolve around religious ideas from pagan ritual to whatever else that is religious you can think of.

It seems to me that literature today runs the gamut from somewhat extreme literature about religion and religious faiths to outrageous and exaggerated non-religious realism with no holds barred.

I might add here that there is much religious music written today, especially choral works whose poetic scores are written by somebody who states opinions, beliefs and attitudes about religious belief.

Mal

Oh, thanks Robby! I have been practically crawling on my hands and knees trying to do everything I have to do to get through each day.

I want to participate and am glad Mal brought that up. The more days that go by I feel behinder and behinder here. I do read everything posted here every day but haven't had a chance to participate with any substance.

Now I just read Mal's latest post above mine. I came across this a couple of days ago. It is an example of some of the religious writing about which she wrote. Very unsettling. Talk about the rise and fall of civilizations! Yipes.

http://66.96.205.195/~azzam/html/articleworldwarthree.htm

Linda

I think interpretations of individual readers of posted messages and books are so interesting. My interpretation of the Faulkner quote is quite different from that of Eloise. My interpretation is that "man" will endure and prevail as living, breathing human beings, not just because humans are strong, but because they have the spirit and compassion that is called "soul".

I have long thought that the background of the reader and his or her philosophies enter in when it comes to interpreting the written word. I can't tell you how very, very surprised I've been when readers have placed all kinds of meanings into books and stories I write, things I never thought of or intended when I said what I did in a piece. Sometimes it has annoyed the you know what out of me, but then I decided that if what I said hit that particular nerve in a reader it is perfectly okay.

The article to which Linda linked is another example of interpretation. Whoever wrote it chose to expand on one word, "crusade", and expand it into World War III.

Yup. The pen is mightier than the sword. That works both ways, I tell myself.
Hopefully, the word of reason one day will finally get through to anyone who reads it.

Mal

Linda:--

I most certainly don't want any of our family here crawling on hands and knees!! So we'll slow down a bit but please realize that I never know if your apparent "drop out" is due to lack of interest or because you are on your hands and knees. As they might have said in Ancient Egypt -- give me a sign!!

Eloise says:--"In medicine there is a little bit of magic.

I'm sure that most physicians who were trying to be honest would admit to that. It is often said that "medicine is an art, not a science."

As I read Mal's comments, I suddenly realize that when I am in a bookstore, the section with religiou/spiritual literature is a large one.

Robby

ROBBY - I find this discussion very interesting! But am having trouble trying to keep up with you all as well as all the other folders I'm involved in. Especially at this time when there are so many other things going on in my life, like parties, Christmas shopping, baking, decorating etc. Sometimes I have to skip over just to keep up, but hopefully when things settle down a little, I will be able to spend more time reading, digesting and maybe even commenting occasionally.

Ruth

The voice of Democracy has been heard. I hear you. I HEAR you! Please understand that I had been feeling ABANDONED and I was getting ready to see a Clinical Psychologist. I guess I had not been spending as much time in baking as the rest of you. People don't bake in a microwave oven.

And I also hang my head in shame as I just read what someone (I forget whom) said in an early posting -- "Let us go at this ve-e-ery slo-o-owly."

OK. With a RED face I await your postings on Ancient Egypt or earlier civilizations.

Robby

Heck, Robby, don't break down and go to a clinical psychologist when you feel abandoned. Come to us. We'll tell you what's wrong!

The Ancient Egyptian idea that the earth is a rectangular box with mountains at the corners holding up the sky seems like a very reasonable one to me. What a great Daliesque painting that would be!

Seems to me they made a very good calendar that worked quite well for them.

Durant says, "The glory of Egyptian science was medicine." As I read this section I was wondering about their attitude toward the mind. Then, of course, their cure for the common cold told me they certainly had thought about the importance of it.

They left records of cases of infantile paralysis, now known as poliomyelitis. That interests me a whole lot. Wonder what they did for that disease beyond what was done in 1935 in the United States, which in my case was nothing?

Frankly, I wish there was a little less magic in medicine today and a little more old-time doctor intuition based on good experience. Test after test after test was done on my daughter through her long illness, and it wasn't until a doctor came along who combined his intuition with his experience; diagnosed her illness properly, and performed the surgery which should have been done months and months before. I wonder when there'll be a turn around and doctors will decide that patients aren't just numbers but are living, breathing, sick human beings again?

Those Ancient Egyptians were pretty smart, I'd say. They tried to promote good health by public sanitation, Durant tells us. Durant says that Herodotus ranked the Egyptians as, "next to the Libyans, the healthiest people in the world." What was their secret for good health, I wonder? What was their diet? I'll bet that had something to do with it.

Mal

"Heck, Robby, don't break down and go to a clinical psychologist when you feel abandoned. Come to us. We'll tell you what's wrong!"

That figures. Isn't it always your family who tells you when you are wrong?

Robby

Robby - Don't worry, we know that "Cheops made you do it!" And like any Egyptian family, we are very forgiving for someone we admire! Besides, today begins the celebration of Eid after the month of Ramadan, when all misunderstandings are set aside. So Eid Mubarak (peaceful Eid). . . and let's continue.

I'd like to go back to one of your earlier comments - "the early literature of the Egyptians is largely religious." How about today's literature? Any similarity?

Contemporary Egyptian writers have a great respect for their historical ancestors and although they do not dwell on the earlier writing, they try to incorporate some aspects of the work into their modern pieces. The poetry of the contemporary Egyptian writers (as perhaps is true throughout the Middle East) focuses quite often on a parody of themselves; laughing (gently) at their own foibles and occasionally writing about how they think the world views them (collectively as a culture, not necessarily as individual writers as one might do in the West). The great Egyptian sense of humor is often turned loose in some of the works - wish more were in English for a larger audience! - and the the parody of folklore is often a central vocus.

For example, the lovable "Goha" (a simple village youth always scrambing to achieve something that the reader knows is totally out of his reach, but he has great heart and never gives up, even in the face of danger, embarassment to himself or a lack of understanding)has "grown up," matured a bit and become the urban young adult now confronted with the "modern" world and all that means. To Goha, his wanderings through a metropolis like Cairo or Alexander are like being on another planet. All too true for many people from the rural areas who relocate to an urban environment.

In other literary genres, the theme of unrequited love remains strong. Political literature and the literature of conflict in Egypt (as well as throughout the Middle East) has remained strong throughout the past decades, as the citizens and politicians face the upheavals of being drawn into the Western 20th and 21st centuries. Eurpoean literature (especially that of France) still has a prominent spot in Egyptian themes and among the writers, but as the new generations come to the forefront, there will certainly be more of a looking towards the future, rather than dwelling so much in the history and rural folklore of the country. Mahfouz writes of many segments of society, but the new Mahfouz's (especially the female writers) will, I'm confident be able to blend the historical respect with the contemporry themes in a way that is pleasing to the Egyptian society, as well as to readers in other parts of the world. There is a bravery among the new writers that one glimpsed periodically among their elders, but was often put aside (or forcibly set aside by government censorship).

Mal diet obviously was a good basic diet we could envy today;

From an Eygptain Receipts page: The variety of Egyptian recipes is Endless They go back a very long way. As a result of subsequent colonization, foreign influence is somewhat present, specially from the Turkish cuisine (it is understandable after more than 300 years of Turkish presence in Egypt). The "Pashas" living in Cairo mainly employed the natives as help and cooks. Their kitchen doors opened to us with their culinary secrets and, hence, Turkish food became part of ours.

Recipes gathered here are those known to the common Egyptian ,irrelevant of their origin. Their names in Arabic are the ones we all know and use. Ingredients used are very easily found in Middle East/Oriental specialty stores.

Ancient Egyptian Food and Drink The Egyptians were very secure in that the Nile valley always yielded enough to feed the country, even when famine was present in other nearby parts of the world. The Egyptian's basic food and drink, bread and beer, were made from the main crops they grew, wheat and barely. There were many types of bread ,including pastries and cakes. Since there was no sugar, honey was used as a sweetener by the rich, and poor people used dates and fruit juices. Egyptians liked strong-tasting vegetables such as garlic and onions.

They thought these were good for the health. They also ate peas and beans ,lettuce, cucumbers, and leeks. Vegetables were often served with an oil and vinegar dressing. Figs, dates, pomegranates and grapes were the only fruits that could be grown in the hot climate. The rich could afford to make wine from their grapes.

Ordinary people ate fish and poultry. On special occasions they ate sheep, goat, or pig; but there was little grazing land available so meat was expensive and most people ate it only on festive occasions.

Egyptians stored their food in jars and granaries. Fish and meat had to be especially prepared for storage. One method was salting. Another was to hang up the fish in the sun, which baked them dry.

In ordinary families the cooking was done by the housewife, but larger households employed servants to work in the kitchen and a chef - usually a man - to do the cooking. The Egyptians had ovens, and knew how to boil roast, and fry food. There were few kitchen tools: pestles, mortars, and sieves.

http://touregypt.net

Faith says:--"Recipes gathered here are those known to the common Egyptian, irrelevant of their origin. Their names in Arabic are the ones we all know and use. Ingredients used are very easily found in Middle East/Oriental specialty stores."

Would you please give us some of the "names in Arabic" that we all know and use?

Robby

All I can think of is Falafel, which I love.

Are kasha and bulgur Arabic words?
Bulgur is from the Turkish word, bulghur.
Just found out that kasha is Russian.
I also read that the word Fava, as in Fava bean, comes from the Latin.
But....did it come from Arabic first?

Mal

Perhaps Mahlia can tell us if there are any words in English which are of Egyptian origin.

Robby

Any Egyptian foods? -- not foods that are Islamic or Arabic but could be called as foods that originated in Egypt and are eaten by the Egyptians whether Islamic or Coptic Christian?

Robby

No sugar! No wonder they lasted so long!

I read one of Naguib Mahfouz's books this year (The Harafish). Our book club was fortunate enought to have a young Arab man living in London to guide us a bit throughout the reading. It was an enjoyable and somewhat enlightening experience. We used our message boards for discussion and then had a live chat when all were finished. Despite the fact that it was something like 4 AM London time, our young Arab gentleman came to the chat, too. I would like one day to read The Palace Walk also. Maybe Mahlia could guide us through that one. I think he said it is considered his best work. He won The Nobel Prize for his works, didn't he?

Pita bread, grape leaves, kibbi? Egyptian or Greek or Lebanese?

Linda

The Fava bean is a delicacy in the Middle East, it is called "ful or fool", as u prefer in Arabic as well as in Hebrew. It is boiled as a thick soup and served with a hard boiled egg, cut into it, salad, sometime a piece of meat if one can afford it. It is an everyday stapple and served in all popular restaurants.

The Humus salad is a paste made of chickoeas flavored with olive oils and spices. It is "sponged of the common plate with a piece of pita bread.

The fallafel are small balls made of a paste of chickpeas with plenty of garlic and spices and deep fried. You fill a pocket of pita bread with fallefel, ad on top a salad of tomatoes, cucumbers and onions thinly diced, and it is a delicious easy meal. The difference is that the Egyptian fallafel is often made from Ful paste instead or mixed with chickpeas and is much tastier. But it is not sold in Israel: too many people of Eastern origin have a carency called G6PD which makes ful fatal to them. Many children died mysteriously of it until it was found.

A very tasty dish is called Khuba and made of hollow meat balls filled with pine nuts and rice. They are crispy fried, often very hot spiced too.

There is a green soup made from a certain herb, very special too... the name escape me just now...

All the oriental sweetmeals of course, dipped heavily in honey: Mulupita,baklava, Khadayiff, made with nuts, paper thin pastry, almonds, sugar, they are delicious!

Between meals, people love to eat seeds: sunflower seeds, melon seeds, watermelon seeds, pumpkin seeds, all roasted and salted. They are very healthy too and of course cheap. Almonds, pistacchios and such are reserved for festive occasions.

Bubble

Here's an interesting link for Mahfouz:

http://www.sis.gov.eg/egyptinf/culture/html/nmahfouz.htm

And also one for Egyptian recipes, including Mulukhiya - the soup of which Sea Bubble could not recall the name.

http://members.home.net/ahmedheissa/Recipes.html

Mahlia:--Thank you SO much for that Link regarding the Egyptian author, Naguib Mahfouz. I am learning so much in this forum. I had no idea that the 1988 Nobel Prize for Literature was received by an Egyptian. And how interesting that he wrote three historical romance novels based upon the very Ancient Egypt era we have just finished examining -- i.e. their heroic struggle to expel the Hyksos. That made it so much more interesting to me.

Robby

Thank you for the Mahfouz site. It is very interesting. I wish I had come across that one when I was reading The Harafish.

Linda

Robby

Bubble - ". . .a carency called G6PD . . ." Would you clarify this, please. I'm not familiar with the term.

Yes, and we enjoyed reading Palace Walk here some time ago in the Book Club Online, and the discussion was aided by the presence of Dr. Roger Allen of Penn State, who was also appearing at the time on NPR about Egyptian Literature and who is a close friend of Naguib Mahfouz. In fact, immediately after he talked with us last he left for Egypt to see him. We've had some great experiences here in the Books & Lit of which this discussion is another!

ginny

Edward Said, a highly respected Palestinian writer and academic, based in New York for many years, speaks of Mahfouz (at the end of the link above) in a way that all Egyptians (regardless of politics) would honor:

"He is not only a Hugo and a Dickens, but also a Galsworthy, a Mann, a Zola and a Jules Romains." - Edward Said, London Review of Books

"But above all he is an Egyptian lover of the River Nile and one with endless quests. His special concern is the grassroots in people, life and facts." (summary from the above link)

In my own words, Naguib Mahfouz IS Egypt.

Apparently Egyptian literature, as it now exists, descends from a high quality of literature in Ancient Egypt. Durant tells us:--

"Distance blurs for us the variety and changefulness of Egyptian literature, as it blurs the individual differences of unfamiliar peoples. Nevertheless, in the course of its long development, Egyptian letters passed through movements and moods as varied as those that have disturbed the history of European literature.

"As in Europe, so in Egypt the language of everyday speech diverged gradually, at last almost completely, from that in which the books of the Old Kingdom had been written. For a long time authors continued to compose in the ancient tongue. Scholars acquired it in school, and students were compelled to translate the "classics" with the help of grammars and vocabularies, and with the occasional assistance of 'interlinears.'

"In the fourteenth century B.C. Egyptian authors rebelled against this bondage to tradition and, like Dante and Chaucer, dared to write in the language of the people."

I find it thought-provoking that almost four thousand years ago, the Egyptian students were studying the "classics."

Robby

I am over salivating reading all the delicious recipies and talk about FOOD. I must live in a cave, but yes, in Montreal we do have food from every nationality and enjoy it.

I am receptions hopping and dash from one place to another, but it will soon be all over. I forgot my pocketbook with all my cards, driver's licence, money, etc. this morning and drove downtown without it and had to come back home, but I'm off now for the rest of the day. The posts are fabulous, keep it up, I will catch up with you later.

No, we're not abandoning you Robby, just like Mal said we are busy at this time of the year. When WE need a psychologist, all we've got to do is drop in here and spill it all out.

Eloïse

It is interesting to me that the evolution of science is considered progress. In fact, change is almost synonymous with Science. Yet it is a fact that our timekeeping system has descended from the Sumerian counting system unchanged.

Mal --The doctors are taught the science of Medicine today which does not allow for that fact that we are all different and respond to various medications/chemicals differently. Some doctors are now using intution, experience, and common sense in treating people who are all different. In fact, the normal medicinal doseage for Japanese is one half of that of the Westerner. I am sure that similar situations fit other people.

Jere

Jere tells that "some doctors are now using intution, experience, and common sense in treating people who are all different."

Is this again an example of "progress" (civilization if you wish) occurring in cycles? Are some doctors of today beginning to think and act like the physicians of ancient times?

Robby

Robby here are some recipe names and I can't find the derivations of

Batat- Bean Salad- Biram Ruz- Feteer Bel Asaag- Kahk- Kishk- Kofta- Konafa- Koshaf- Kosheri- Lemon Garlic Potato Salad- Mombar- Ommal- Shorbet- Spinach with Dill- Swarma=

names. Well this is a list of common Egyptian recipes and includes of course English words. However I found out that there have been so many different peoples in Eygpt starting 10,000 years ago that it was the Original Melting Pot. I do not kn0w what language these different recipe names are..

GOSH! -- I've been eating Egyptian food and I didn't know it!

Robby

My favorite snack is a bean sandwich. Has been since I was a child, when I knew nothing of Mid Eastern foods. When I was a young mother I use to mash small white beans and add chicken broth and seasoning to make a sandwich spread or a dip and everyone liked it. It is the same really as the Hummis from the MidEast made from chick peas or garbanzo beans. So Robby you may have eaten more Eygptian food than you know. fp

I probably have. Would that account for the fact that my head comes to a point on top?

Robby

Scribes had significant authority in ancient Egyptian society. Learning to read and write the complex language took many years, and the profession of scribe was highly respected and enjoyed many privileges, not the least was exemption from taxation.

Ancient Egyptians had an extraordinary love of design, and were sensitive to the remarkable decorative qualities of their hieroglyphs. This monumental visible language system was everywhere: the inside and outside of temples, tombs, on furniture, coffins, utensils, tools, jewelry.

In Egypt a major step forward in writing was the development of papyrus. By 1500 B.C. A cursory hieratic (Greek for priestly) script, a penstroke simplification of the hieroglyphic book hand was developed by the priests for religious writing. This writing then evolved into an even more abstract script called demotic (Greek for popular) that had come into use for commercial and legal writing by 400 B.C. The development of a cheap writing surface spread demotic writing. Hieratic and demotic scripts supplemented rather than replaced hieroglyphs.

Robby, thanks for the invitation.

Good to have you with us, Ellen!
I wasn't aware that hierotic meant priestly and demotic meant popular and were Greek terms. Makes sense to me now.

Robby

A doctor here in town who is a well-respected Kidney Specialist was on TV a few weeks ago explaining the new medicine. I missed all of it but the last sentence or two. He was a close friend a long time ago and I was not listening so much as looking at him to be sure who it was. He is now into natural medicine and acupuncture. I guess a number of doctors are going that way now although they seem to be running into difficulty with the insurance companies.

Linda

hieratic (hì´e-ràt´îk, hì-ràt´-) adjective
1. Of or associated with sacred persons or offices;
sacerdotal.
2. Constituting or relating to a simplified cursive style of
Egyptian hieroglyphics, used in both sacred and secular writings.
3. Extremely formal or stylized, as in a work of art.

demotic (dî-mòt´îk) adjective
1. Of or relating to the common people; popular: demotic speech;
demotic entertainments.
2. Of, relating to, or written in the simplified form of ancient
Egyptian hieratic writing.
3. Demotic. Of or relating to a form of modern Greek based on
colloquial use.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third
Edition copyright © 1992 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic
version licensed from INSO Corporation. All rights reserved.

Yes there are many who are treating the patient in a holistic way. Mind body and spirit. There is also a great interest in homeopathic and herbal medicines amongst the medical and vetrinarian professionals here. I can vouch that homeopathic medicine cured an injury in my dog which normally requires surgery. There has been no reoccurrence of the problem and it was two years ago she had the treatment. I use a herbally based antiinflammatory rub for my soft tissue problem and the relief is almost instantaneous. It is far outselling any other rub now here in NZ. The main ingredient is Arnica. Arnica is also wonderful taken internally as an antiinflammatory in the tablet form which is crushed and sprinkled on the tongue. I have used it to cure Pharyngitis in my little dogs orally. Works brilliantly.

Carolyn

Good you all cleared that up. I might have thought

hi erotic --- highly erotic

demotic --- devilish behavior

"Several papyri devoted to medicine have come down to us. The most valuable of them, named from the Edwin Smith who discovered it, is a roll fifteen feet long, dating about 1600 B.C., and going back for its sources to much earlier works. Even in its extant form it is the oldest scientific document known to history.

"It describes forty-eight cases in clinical surgery, from cranial fractures to injuries of the spine. Each case is treated in logical order, under the heads of provisional diagnosis, examination, semeiology, diagnosis, prognosis, treatment, and glosses on the terms used. The author notes, with a clarity unrivaled until the eighteenth century of our era, that control of the lower limbs is localed in the "brain" -- a word which here appears for the first time in literature."

More and more, to me at least, the term "oriental heritage" is becoming meaningful.

Robby

That's funny, Linda!

There's a restaurant in Chapel Hill about six miles from where I live where you can buy practically all the foods mentioned today. The two men who run it speak Arabic, and the food is delicious. I could live on it, have made hummus and falafel many times, haven't attempted dolmas. Thanks for your post, Sea Bubble and the recipes, Mahlia.

Gotta go. I'm getting hungry!

Mal

Here's a link to an example of demotic script - clearly seen as nowhere near as formalized as Hieroglyphics:

http://i-cias.com/e.o/demotic.htm

Mahlia. - G6PD is the lack of ... an enzyme or a protein I think it is called. It usually helps to assimilate certain normal substances. Those who lack it, or have G6PD cannot assimilate the Fava beans and other substances found in medicines. G6PD is also called favism in some country. My son has it (it is tested at birth in all children here) and it was explained that it causes heavy irreversible hemoraeging in the stomach, thus not visible until too late. Not only can he not taste fava but many medicines and in particular nothing with sulpha in it.

G6PD is a genetic and hereditary problem found mostly among people from Indian and African origins. My son is from Indian descent. Bubble

Work is now being done in laboratories to genetically alter fava beans so that they no longer contain the vicine and isouramil which makes the beans inedible to people with that disorder.

Robby

Skeletal remains from a cemetery near what appears to be the city of laborers who built the Gaza pyramids show that the workers had access to good medical care. Their life expectancy was only around forty or forty-five but there is evidence that the overseers had a clinic for the people employed there. They were not a slave population, but a tight organization of a large labor force. And injuries received medical care, including amputation of injured limbs if need be.

"The Egyptians enjoyed a grat variety of diseases, though they had to die of them without knowing their Greek names. The mummies and papyri tell of spinal tuberculosis, arterosclerosis, gall-stones, small-pox, infantile paralysis, anemia, rheumatic arthritis, epilepsy, gout, mastoiditis, appendicitis, and such marvelous affections as spondylitis deformans and achondroplasia.
"There are no signs of syphilis or cancer, but pyorrhea and dental caries, absent in the oldest mummies, become frequent in the later ones, indicating the progress of civilization. The atrophy and fusion of the bones of the small toe, often ascribed to the modern shoe, was common in ancient Egypt, where nearly all ages and ranks went barefoot.

"Against these diseases the Egyptian doctors were armed with an abundant pharmacopoeia. The Ebers Papyrus lists seven hundred remedies for everything from snake-bite to puerperal fever. The Kahun Papyrus (ca. 1850 B.C.) prescribes suppositories apparently used for contraception."

This is the same society that had a law system where citizens were killed in all sorts of "barbarous" ways.

Robby

Lots of current research is being done on mummified bodies from ancient Egypt - they are learning that although they were clean, it was their very bathing that increased their absorbing parasites - worms that caused the infection of the liver and lungs - if the worm carried by snails, penetrates the skin and enters the veins of a human host there is serious anemia, loss of appetite, urinary infection, and loss of resistance to other diseases.

Head lice that can not travel on greasy or dirty hair shafts and so their presence on Egytian hair supports the report by Herodotus that they were concerned with cleanliness.

Tuberculosis was a problem. Not only the caughing of blood that we know but they suffered other forms that left physical deformations. Many mummies show evidence of a humped-back as does some bas relief on Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom Dynasty Tombs. This is an affliction of an advanced case of TB

Examining artwork, medical papyri, literature, mummified bodies, the environment, the heat, sun and sand and the Nile pathologist Joyce Flier is unraveling and reporting her findings in the UT Press. She found many broken arms among soldiers but surprising a large number of women's skeletons showed arm breaks and other fractures that is being attributed to flagrant wife beatings.

Arthritis shows up and Cleopatra's fingers showed evidence of arthritis thought to have developed from her practice of playing the harp.

They died young but ate well enough for their teeth to rot, Mummies show evidence of Trichinella, from eating infected pork.

A digestive amulet, was carried in a pouch, close to the ailing stomach. A papyrus amulet rolled and carried in a metallic tube protected the wearer from fever. There were spells to protect against food poisoning and headaches, to prevent a hangover and if a fishbone was caught in the throat.

Various viral infections have been detected in mummies showing the shortening of the left leg, a wasting of one leg and club feet. Some Dwarfs were found with normal size heads and upper bodies.

Links to Medicine in Ancient EGYPT || Part II including diseases of women & Children || Part III includes diseases of the eye, dental disease, psychiatry || Egyptian Herbal Medicine

Robby,
Is genetically altering the fava beans called progress? I think it makes them even more dangerous. At least now G6PD people know to avoid them. It seems that now they could acquire a taste for them now, but would need to ask for a certificate of production each time.

The real problem lies with the medicines, since you have to read all the small letters and guess which substance is appropriate and which is not. I have a three-page small printed list of what is dangerous and it has not been updated for the last twenty years.

Though not dangerous in any way, the G6PD condition makes for a lower profile in the army and some branches are thus closed.
Bubble

Barbara:--
An extremely enlightening post about the physical condition of people in Ancient Egypt and the various ailments. Thank you!

Robby

"The tomb of an Eleventh Dynasty queen revealed a medicine chest concerning vases, spoons, dried drugs, and roots. Prescriptions hovered between medicine and magic, and relied for the effectiveness in great part on the repulsiveness of the concoction.
"Lizard's blood, swine's ears and teeth, putrid meat and fat, a tortoise's brains, an old book boiled in oil, the milk of a lying-in woman, the water of a chaste woman, the excreta of men, donkeys, dogs, lions, cats and lice -- all these are found in the presctiptions. Baldness was treated by rubbing the head with animal fat.

"Some of these cures passed from the Egyptians to the Greeks, from the Greeks to the Romans, and from the Romans to us. We still swallow trustfully the strange mixtures that were brewed four thousand years ago on the banks of the Nile."

Remember when we were children before the age of anti-biotics when we were told that medicine was supposed to taste terrible?

Robby

A reminder to everyone not to scroll past the Heading too quickly each time you arrive at this forum, but to pause to read the quotes in GREEN.

Robby

When I had polio a thousand years ago (it seems that way!) the only "medicine" I was given was iron in liquid form. It did, indeed, taste terrible, but what I remember about it was that people told me not to get any on my teeth because it would stain them. I had so many other problems at the time, including just trying to stay alive, that a few stains on my teeth didn't matter much to me, frankly.

Durant tells us that "architecture was the noblest of the ancient arts". As you think about the World Trade Towers and other great feats of architecture, do you believe that is true today?

Durant also says that "stone was too costly for homes; it was reserved for priests and kings". The best building materials were used for the temples. Look at the "temples" around the world today. I have been in very, very poor towns where the church towered over everything, and was the grandest edifice to be seen, so offhand I would say this is still done in some respects in our civilization.

Mal

Durant mentions the seated Scribe of the Louvre. When you click the link below, you will see a picture of it.

Scribe of the Louvre

East Meets West Although contemporary in its focus, this link to a fine article about Egypt today in the Washington Post quotes Egypt's Chief Archaeologist Dr. Zahi Hawass and current film critics about the puzzling (to the Western Eye) attraction/revulsion of Egyptians towards Americans in particular and the West in general and how it has affected their society.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A52147-2001Dec16.html

Persia that is an excellent article. It really made me stop and think that it is a fact that I know nothing really about the daily life, thought, and motivations of this other culture we call "the east". Understanding how Civilization began in the very area that is discussed in that article and that we are struggling here to understand our "Oriental Heritage", makes it even harder to realize we do not know our "East" today let alone yesterday. fp

FAITH - There was a recent program in our area which featured the journalist Marvin Kalb and several other prominent journalists from various publications. Part of their commentary was asking themselves whether they (as journalists) were responsible for the tremendous lack of world-wide understanding on the part of Americans OR whether the American public simply didn't INSIST on more information about other countries, cultures, people, politics, economics, religions, etc. The program was about an hour long and it was very interesting to listen to these well respected journalists seaerch their own minds about something that has plagued the USA for a long, long time. As these individuals offered their comments, I was reminded of many of the things we are learning NOW about ancient Egypt and Sumeria. I also remembered that as we learn about others, we also learn about ourselves - or not.

Mal - Very good link of the scribe in the Louvre. Thanks, it felt good reading in French on S of C. When I read that, I think I must have been a scribe when I started working during the war, a profession considered to be very low and menial.

I still use herbal medecine, started that 30 odd years ago. I would say although it works at a slower pace, it is less invasive and results are more permanent sometimes. A personal experience I have tested many times AGAINST doctor's advice. In this family we try to prevent illness before it gets to the point when we have to see a doctor, and if it can't be prevented we will certainly go the natural route first, medicine being a second choice. A daily dose of cod liver oil is still the best medecine against colds because of its high content of vitamin A and D.

Egyptians using the squatting method for birthing made having a baby both easier instead of lying down in bed. Pregnancy and giving birth has been too long considered an illness and women consult a doctor as soon as they are pregnant instead of seeing a Midwife. Giving birth is natural why make it a medical concern unless complications arise.

Mahlia - please this is being said in the kindest way - there is a real problem here with what I would have thought the Middle East knew best - salesmenship - no one or group will do what is good for themselves - we complain because American University students now graduate without benefit of a language or exploration into Litariture or the arts - we camplain because the American people do not know this group or that group or this tradition or or or or or - Basic - no one learns anything that they do not see as a benefit to themselves - Americans know as little about the Middle East as they do Iceland or Bolivia or Turkmenistan.

I have said this in another post but it is worth repeating - Children may be exposed to the world in school but the emphesis is to know best the US history, culture and language so that this diversified nation will be able to function as a UNITED group of states, each with its individual culture.

Example here in Texas you cannot get out of elementary school OR graduate from a Texas Univerity without a year of TEXAS history - not US but TEXAS history - yes US history and world history is taught but I really think that the Middle East is wanting the US to have more than a passing knowledge of the area. They want their culture to be respected. In order for it to be respected it must be known about.

The majority of folks do not just go about with great curiosity and feelings of fair play learning about others. Also, when 9/11 took place there was an effort to assure Islamic Temples were protected. At the time I kept wondering why the members didn't invite to a special service some of the civic leaders and religious leaders in town - Having a TV camara focused on the mayor walking into a Temple would have sent out not only the strong message of acceptance and approvel but that there is a friendly atmosphere at play here that we in the community should respect. The temples have not opened their arms and been friendly in the community. Thank goodness someone woke up and at the end of Ramadan there was a ceremony that included some of the local religious from other faiths in the area.

Now as to we learning more - no one will learn more about another culture because they want us to as if we were taking our Spring Tonic. Just as Vicente Fox made a friend with Bush and found the connection to initiate that friendship he than was able to sell many in this country on the realization of the value the Mexican laborer plays in our economy, as well as adding how the Mexican economy needs to improve so that we are not the only means for a Mexican laborer to make money. In other words he is selling his country to us - selling by showing us the added value his people bring to this nation.

No, unless you live in a border state the rest of this nation probably knows little about Mexico and the jokes go on about its backward ways. But remember this nation is all about the dream of doing better. Until there is comfort in having achieved that dream everything or everyone that represents less than 'better' less than the dream is made into a joke. It is most folks way of assuring themselves that they are past that issues although in reality they are still very close. They do not want anyone to even imagine they are still that close to the underside of 'better' or their dream.

And so just as an agent in the office would complain because no one is calling him or her to help them buy or sell a house - we have learned that is only someone as we call it 'belly aching' - you have to do the leg work - you have to let others know not just what you can do but "HOW YOU CAN MEET THEIR NEEDS SO THAT THEY ARE MORE SUCCESSFUL." The Middle east needs not just an Add compagne but they need to use their salesmenship.

You've lived here - you see - we are just a group of people doing what it takes to have a comfortable family life and when we are young to prove ourselves by making money. Most of us care little about even Israel except that we know about the holicost and our hearts went out but now many of us are not happy with how the Jewish people are handling things in Israel and that is confusing us. Result we dismiss the whole issue that we cannot do anything about. Also where are the women delegates - I have even forgotten her name now - but surrounding Arafat was this very articulate women with short hair that was often on TV afffectively explaining the Palestinian view - she was listened to -

But to sum up no nation, especially a third world nation is given attention unless, they can sell themselves by showing how they benefit the American dream. When we want something from another nation we usualy give part of the profits or money or in the case of government other kinds of aid. It has worked without the US business people or government needing to learn what are the cultural needs of an area.

Bottom line I think there is a real tug going on within the Middle East between the average citizen and their leadership. Somehow the average citizen is not achieving their dreams and the leadership is not rallying their country to a greater vision and so everyone is bogged down in quibbling over what dream they should follow. Again, I say the internet is opening new ideas that cannot be contained and somehow the Middle East must determine how to combine the thinking and culture of the west with Islam. If Islam was bringing about the American dream for Americans believe me we would all be converts tomorrow. But we know many an American based faith is struggling to combine the thinking and culture of the west with their religious beleifs and practices.

Faith says:--"It is a fact that I know nothing really about the daily life, thought, and motivations of this other culture we call "the east". Understanding that we are struggling here to understand our "Oriental Heritage" makes it even harder to realize we do not know our "East" today let alone yesterday."

I am coming to realize as we share thoughts here that while much of our daily life has an "oriental heritage," we do not keep this thought on the conscious level of awareness. For example, how often do we stop to consider where our very familiar "arabic" numerals originated? As we study geometry, do we take a moment to consider the ancient pyramids? As we write on our "paper," do we pause even a second to think about papyrus? We walk around on a solid Eastern foundation and keep calling ourselves a Western civilization.

Robby

I have been contemplating just those things, Robby. Plus I have been thinking that the Art and Mythology or Religion of this area and especially Eygpt still has a deep influance on our Civilization. I touched a lot on these things in school, then in reading because I loved to read Archeology and also Anthropology and you can not avoid learning much of this history. But to "read" it and to actually think of it or use it in daily life is a different story isnt it. Fp

Didn't all the things that take place in "our" Bible happen in the East?

Robby

Robby,the god of "our" Bible had his headquarter in the East, then the pope in Rome took over.

Robby - I am not aware that anyone ever thinks about Eastern or Western civilization as we read the Bible, but the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob is the same God as Muslims, Jews and Christians. It is also part of our "Oriental Heritage".

In Bible times, the Western World in the north did not exist as an advanced civilization, they lived in a barbaric part of the world compared to civilized Egypt, Greece, the Roman Empire, Assyria in the south. What made the 'barbares' of the north jump ahead in their development after they brought down the Roman Empire was perhaps because that they had not become 'fat and prosperous' and could endure hardships that the South had lost the courage and stamina to endure.

To call ourselves a Western Civilization is perhaps arrogance because we have become so powerful and like to set ourselves apart. We all come from the same source.

Eloïse

If anyone has any information about Camels - please share it with me - for days now I have been on the hunt and all I can learn is that the Camel did not become a means of transportation till around the time of Christ. Were they always present and their usefulness just not realized? Where did the Camel orginate - when and where was the first caravan - why did they start exchanging goods from as far away as India by camel rather than continuing trade by boat. I understand Egypt was a great importing nation I wonder what they exported in exchange.

What is y'alls opinion about the great plunder of Egyptian artifacts located and 'owned' by other nations.

Barbara - "When we want something from another nation we usualy give part of the profits or money or in the case of government other kinds of aid. It has worked without the US business people or government needing to learn what are the cultural needs of an area.

I agree with much of what you mentioned regarding the East needing better salesmanship, thus bringing about a better awareness and real understanding of the vast differences. However, in your comment (above) is the essence of what the general population (NOT the government leaders who line their own pockets with baksheesh)think of the Americans. Certainly we can pay for oil - and we have on an enormous scale - but is the payment enough in terms of dealing with the people whose home is in "the land of oil."

For example, exclusive of Saudi Arabia, Iran has provided enormous potential for oil fields. Yet, from the top American officials to the guys on the rig in the middle of the water off Khoramshahr, there is LITTLE understanding of the Iranian nationals who worked for and with them.

Certainly, Americans will pay attention to the parts of the world that interest them, like people anywhere. But the major issue from the people in the Middle East (as expressed in the article to which my earlier link led) is that Americans are only interested in "paying their way," and "money talks" is enough for them. That's true in many cases - but not all - and says alot about the cultural arrogance (as well as ignorance) of the government and business community in the USA.

I've been a resident of the metropolitan Washington DC area for more than 30 years and worked in several govt. agencies, as well as served in an Egyptian diplomatic Mission. There is an ENORMOUS sense in the American business community that "we do not need to know much about you in order to do business with you" and "if you want to do business with me, then it's going to be in English." I cannot tell you how embarassing that has been to me on numerous occasions when as the only American sitting with Egyptian colleagues, I have had to bite my tongue and listen to an American portray his (and his company's) "importance" to Egypt.

On the other hand, there is a lot of corruption in Egypt - among the government, businesses and the average citizens. It is an ENORMOUSLY poor country and wherever there is such poverty, people tend to set aside many of their moral issues and just try to feed their families. We have poverty in the USA, too - in fact much, much more than a country like ours should have - but NOT the blinding, desolate poverty of regions like the Middle East, Africa, Central Asia.

From the Egyptian standpoint (as the article mentioned), I think it is the "appearance" that Americans think they are better than any other people in the world (whether from a technological or personal standpoint); the insistence that "money can buy anything" - government, leaders, religions, etc. that is offensive; and that the religion of Islam is so grossly misunderstood (in the media and by average citizens, althoug the Muslim population has continued to grow in the USA) that Americans throughout the country have looked at the vile actions of bin Laden and his evil Al Qaeda and automatically assumed that they represent Islam.

As far as Islamic communities opening their doors to those of other faiths to bring about a better understanding, many have done so. Not just post-Sept. 11th, but for many years. I live in a part of the country which has a very large Muslim population. There are several well established Inter-Faith Councils in this region, which bring together Christians of all denominations, Jews, Muslims, Hindus and Budhists. Perhaps it is because we are in the Nation's capital that this is so, but IMO, it is possible to have this type of interaction anywhere in the USA. If mosques are hesitant to reach out to the Christian community, then nothing prevents the Christian churches from invites the Imams and members of the mosques to their churches. I attended a Christian church a few months ago (one of those enormous "mega-churches" that have endowments almost as large as the US budget) and asked the Pastor if he had been in touch with the Imam at the mosque 500 yards down the street from his church. The Pastor replied in all sincerity, "we have no way to contact them." "How about the phone or walking across the street," I inquired. The pastor stared at me, said "God Bless You" and walked away. And so it goes.

Eloise I just wonder - when we read the "Red Tent" there was much research that made the read especially meaningful - there seemed to be much emphasis on guiding people to believe in only one God and the Egyptions were the foil for all that was bad since they were attached to many Gods and Goddesses - I wonder if that wasn't the first split and of course the crusades didn't heal anything or promote our attachemnt to the East - but did Egypt continue to worship many gods and goddesses until they were introduced to Islam I wonder.

If so and as I understand it Mohammad didn't come on the scene till 600 A.D. making the rift between a nation comfortable with many Gods versus not only Judiaism but also Christian nations of Europe downplaying Egypt as well as other nations with many Gods. I wonder if our split is based in our early religious beliefs and the hiararchy of a one God religion pushing that belief at the expense of respect for a multiple God nation.

This concept of downplaying another I realize now is so easy - reading a benign children's book - one of the Laura Ingalls stories about their new cabin being built and the father just built the outside walls at first using the tarp from the wagon as a roof and the dirt floor - I do not remember the exact wording but when the discussion got around to a fireplace the mother says she was not going to live like any Indian with a fire in the middle of her cabin and a hole in the roof.

This is a well loved children's author whose character was speaking as someone that expected to be better than the Indians. 50 years ago it would have gone right over our heads. And in fact the fire in the middle of the cabin would have provided more warmth since we have now learned that heat goes up the chimney with the smoke. And so I can see how easy it was after awhile to downplay or make in fun of any group that was deemed to be not 'civilized' because they had many Gods or whatever the issue.

Thought it interesting to read that the Kohl used as eye-make-up helped reduce the glare of the sun.

Mahlia - How well said and only you could put it this way. Yes on all counts.

I would like to point out our dependency on oil from the Middle East. If the prices from there were to rise sharply, we would certainly find ways to not depend on it so much but would Oil Companies agree to that? Certainly not. Their control over the oil industry has the government's support.

Barbara - RE Camels: have you tried both Google and the World Search options? There's a tremendous amount of information. One article begins "Two millions years ago. . . ." Another refers to the camel's ancient heritage from "a rabbit-like creature. . ." and then moves along to the relation to the South American Alpaca and Llama.

I always think of man as coming from the east. Serious biblical scholars are very aware of the old eastern civilizations. I guess it all depends today on ones beliefs. I have always believed we have an oriental heritage.

Carolyn

Yes Mahlia, that was included in dry humor - ah the glory of writing - and yes that is the problem I see with all business - I do not think it is arrogant as much as they are trying to do business with no clue what it takes -

Let me give an example please with what I know best - a couple decide that after all their looking they really want a new house. After all they are moving and why not start everything out new. And so they choose their neighborhood and after some comparisons to price and the little they know about quality of materials and workmanship they make their choice. They are really measuring the quality more on how many fans and how many walls will be wall papered and how many air conditioning units and maybe how much insulation.

Then still in good humor they learn they must mark up the plans as to where they want phone jacks and cable and then start choosing their carpet not only color but the weight and thickness of the padding as well as what stove and sink they want, what brick or stone they want, do they want tile or wood at the entry, tile or slate or Formica or what in the kitchen, and then they are beginning to get a glazed look as they must go the light fixture store and choose their lights, on and on - deep breath, we are finally able to be approved with a final sales price, arrange now for a loan and within two weeks the slab will be poured.

They expect to go away and come back in 5 to 9 months according to the size of this house and find a finished new home! The dream is a bit tarnished now with all that choosing but the excitement of their dream returns as she is now thinking furniture.

I explain that this is a man made product with material that breaths and moves - therefore it is best to visit the site everyweek to note if there are any mistakes as it is being built. Oh but can't I do that for them?? Yes, but if you want wiring for your stereo etc. it is best to be here when that is installed and you will be caring for this house and so it would be a good idea to know where the wiring and plumbing etc. is within the walls.

And then the last four weeks when so many subcontractors are coming in and out it is best to come out every day and see that everything is as you ordered and installed with care. The construction manager is building 7, 10 or whatever the number houses and will only catch things during final inspections that will be easier and professionally done if handled when the error first occurs - What Error - Errors Barbara - we did not think a reputable builder makes errors -

Than I share some of the war stories and explain anything man made is opened for errors - and yes if they really understood what they were buying they may have settled for a resale and changed the carpet and wall paper. But you see there is this dream thing - and that dream thing is not grounded on knowing all that will be involved.

To top it off I tell everyone of the people I work with to make friends with the construction manager - bring a six pack out on a Friday late afternoon to share with him and the carpenters - you will get a better built house - bring coffee and donuts out when the tile installers are there as well as the company that installs the kitchen appliances. About half listen and take the advise and sure enough we have a happy jolly if tired but satisfied new home owner.

The others get upset and angry with each error and fight with the construction manager. We then have various stages of war that I try to act as a peace negotiator - Sometimes we have holy war - that is what I call it when we are threatening "Law suite."

On a small scale that is the relations that I see happening when on a business goes into a new area - they only see the benefit to their bottom line - look at most business, if it weren't for either a tight skilled market pool of workers or the changes made by labor organizing the people would not be given any care or concern - when the businesses go into another nation, Yes, they appeal to the glint in the eyes with money and the business has no clue what they are really into. Once they do realize they are determined to stick to their bottom line even if it means sending for the US marines. And so to me business goes in blind but the negotiating between the business and nation at risk is seldom there because I think both sides need an education on how to work with each other so that both benefit.

Also it take a lot of guts to do business and I have found many an agent or builders rep act pretty darn arrogant until I was in the business awhile and realized it was a 'show' to cover their insecurity and fear of 'not getting the sale.' The more they were challenged the more they dug in. The one thing thank goodness Bush did not do was dig-in with so much of his early rhetoric - but our national leaders are just people that put their pants on just like you and me. Yes, they have around them the resources of the best minds. How opened to or even able to collect the best minds is their mark of leadership. But arrogant naah just unaware - we all have a smattering of knowledge about many places in this world.

Business does not have free access to a brain pool. I bet someone in Egypt knows about as much about potato growers in Idaho or shrimpers off the Gulf as folks in New York know. And if they decided to, I don't know, tried to buy a shrimp boat and start a shrimp business so they could have a broader market for nets made out of Egyptian cotton they would come head to head with a different culture even though the Egyptians have fished for centuries -

I guess my buttons are always hit when the suggestion is made that someone "should" or "ought" - they don't - is that so bad - just deal with it - labeling the behavior with characteristics based on any of our values isn't going to make it change. It is to me like that old "Alligator River" Game we all played a few years ago, with Abigail, Sinbad, Ivan, Stan and Stug.

As to religion being accepted - it would be great but look at us right here on Seniornet - where is the discussion for Buddhists grouped? - certainly not as a respected religion - go look.

Barbara - when you wrote about how advanced were the Egyptians in medicine perhaps Kohl comes from there too. Kohl has been used so long that we don't know where it originated. I don't know if it is the same as Kajal that the people from India use, but if it is, it is made with camphor that is heated until it becomes black. Camphor has a lot of healing properties, rubbing with it to relieve muscle aches, for colds we can make inhalations with it, etc. I use Kohl on eyelids every day before going to bed. It relieves ithing and pressure. It relieves tired eyes that too much computer provokes.

Any reaction to the quote which begins "Religion offered motives...?"

Robby

Such interesting posts! Thanks for all of your information and ideas.

I think we don't know the East and, by golly, I don't think we know the West either. Maybe, just maybe, we will get to know one another better and we pretty dang well better see ourselves for what we are pretty darn soon.

We have a beautiful mosque in our community and shortly after 9-11 they opened up to the whole area and fed all those who came, gave them tours. It was on TV, the mayor and other dignitaries were there - even our reps from congress. It was a wonderful occasion.

Another thing that occurred was The Islamic Adademy which is about a mile from our Catholic Church called the church and asked if we had some people who could volunteer to help watch the playground at recess time. They wanted to double up their playground supervisors. I felt honored that they would ask us and embarrassed that they would feel fear for the safety of their children in our country.

We really need to know our country better and understand why there is hatred toward us. I believe some of it is legitimate. Then we need to learn all we can about the East and get out and get to know some of the people in our own communities. Maybe even become friends!

What's that song..."Let there be Peace on Earth and let it begin with me."

Linda

BARBARA - I'm still laughing! I used to be in real estate (both commercial and residential) so I know exactly "from whence you speak."

However, in Egypt (as elsewhere in the Middle East) a potential home owner or businessman interested in investing in commercial property would hire you (or me) to make sure that everything worked perfectly. And we would, because being professionals and familiar with the culture in which we were hired (and the expectations of the client who hired us), we would also know that all Hell would break lose in several languages if anything was wrong.

Coffee and donutes are fine for the crews engaged in the work; alcohol is not. Baksheesh goes much further than donuts in the Middle East; clothes for the children of the workers are even better. I STILL send clothes to the Manager of some property I own in Iran (and have been doing so since his now college-age kids were born). Thus I know that he takes good care of my property; it is NOT vandalized; he and his family have a comfortable home in which to live (we built it for him when we hired him many years ago).

I wholeheartedly agree that in the USA, it is much better to have the clients view the property as it is being built; to become familiar (or more so) with what's going on. I do not like clients involved with crews, but with the onsite management is OK. And I willingly spring for the treats at the end of a work week - still no alcohol though. I just don't believe in it. If the work goes well (on a regular basis), I'm a great one for holiday bonus or end-of-project completion for all involved. And if there are problems, I'm not shy. If the work is not up to standards (mine and the legal ones), then I am extremely aggressive (in several languages) and do not put up with much. Being familiar with the building site (and owning a hard hat, jeans, boots and other gear) comes in handy, too. So does being familiar with the formal building process, as well as the jargon among the workers. These are ordinarily hard-working people; some goof-offs occasionally, but overall OK folks.

But in the Middle East, there is definitely a culture where the "middle man (or woman)" is utilized, not only for their knowledge and familiarity with the project, but to save the signity of the client. It is one thing for someone like you or me to be aggressive with a builder in the Middle East and quite another for the client to do so. The latter just does not happen, unless the client is an American. I have several funny stories about pulling Americans off site in Iran, when they began to berate some construction managers. But I'll save those for another time.

Thank you Mahlia for the link to Naguib Mafouz. Many of his later works have been translated into English but the three earliest dealing with The Hyksos and Ancient Egypt are not listed among the translated works. If you are aware of any translations of these works into either English or French I would appreciate learning about them.

LINDA - mosques in our area did the same thing and several of the Christian churches and schools readily responded. One of the Moms in my area of Maryland got a bunch of her Soccer Moms together and atfer practice they drove to the nearby mosque, put up a folding table, set out hot chocolate and donuts for themselves and anyone who wanted to join them and "patrolled" all around the perimeter. When the Muslims came to pray just before sundown and then later in the evening for the last prayer of the day, here were these American Soccer Moms ready to tackle anyone who would have even looked cross-eyed at any of the Muslim parishoners. Several of the Muslim women went to thank the Soccer Moms with tears in their eyes! The Muslim men thanked the women, too, with their hand over their hearts - traditionally men do not touch women other than those in their immediate family - and tears in their own eyes. One of the men later was quoted as saying "NOW we have more angels to protect us. The Soccer Moms will get you if you try to harm us."

A few weeks later, the mosque invited the Soccer Moms and their families to a special service of thanksgiving and dinner where they were able to meet and greet and share a meal with many of the Muslims whom they went out of their way to help. I felt really good when I heard about this gesture.

The Principal of one of our neighborhood schools called the Principal of the Islamic School and asked if students could help in any way. Several of the older students offered to talk with some of the Muslim students to try and ease their fear; some of the sports coaches talked with the soccer teams at the Islamic school; and several of the faculty spent a lot of their free time with the teachers at the Islamic school. So folks do find ways to help; some small, but needed; others in groups or through organizations. But the point is, they DO help. And to me, that's what life's all about!

MAHLIA - what a beautiful story about the Soccer Moms! I had tears in my eyes when I read what they did. If only more people would do things like that all over the world, it would be a better world. And what a wonderful example those Moms were for their children!

Ruth

Information about the role of music in Ancient Egypt can be found HERE.

Click onto DANCING AND MUSIC in Ancient Egypt.

Whoops several posts entered in the time I typed this - need to read them

aha different strokes for different folks - here we would be considered rude if the buyer didn't interact with the workmen and regardless if I think alcohol is proper of not - no self-respecting contractor would imagine anything else - we are simply coating the action with honey and if I was building in another part of the nation or world I would hire someone to broker the project.

And as you know lots does go wrong but always, the builder is interested in righting it as best as possible - after all his reputation is on the line - it is just that some buyers do not understand some things must be creatively changed because materials may no longer be available or the land falls diferently then the model home and it just won't look like the model home or a different sub-contractor is all that was available. Upset naah, now the buyers do get upset and they do I think because they are doing something they have never done before and are not sure of themselves, feel everything needs to be a certain way without the knowledge of building skills or materials. Therefore, they react to their own fears and insecurities with blame and anger. No the builder cannot give the store away and nothing comes free - some would like a $500,000 home for $300,000.

Lets face it - you know having been in Real Estate - only scared people get upset and create an unpleasent atmosphere in the effort to get the house built. Start grumbling and the cooperation is lessoned. Stay high and with a can do attitude and everyone gives their best.

Now on an International scale very few businesses have a broker calming the waters between the business and the nation. The business is not going to be measured at the next stock holders meeting with how well it got on with this or that person or how much the relationships between the citizens of the area and those working there improved - they are measured by the low costs that led to greater profit and the amount of business that brought in greater company dollars.

As to creating friendships - again it would be so nice but I am a realist and can hear it now - maaaan you want me to what - I was hired on here to do a job not be the G-- D--- UN. You said nothing about this when you hired me. You hired me because I could do the job. I am here without my family or out of my country or what ever he can think of that would fit that makes it sound like he is on the moon, in order to earn more money than if I was home doing this job...

In fact many a home grown, home centered business is contending with just that mind set - "friends at work?" as they would say only slows down the work.

And so, I think what you are suggesting and hoping for is not so much an international relationship as much as the exchange, acceptance and understanding between the population and the working American as it is the typical issue that many businesses work with here or anywhere. And yes, the Middle East probably sees more business men and therefore, think all Americans are like the folks they meet.

Oh shoot I could go on but we have some of this same sterio typing of what folks want to see when they visit Texas and a few years ago there was this big flap because out-0f-state tourists were talking out loud in the Alamo - didn't they realize it was not only a shrine but it was a church and sacred ground - la de dah deday - well the upshot, visiters talk and talk loud in the Alamo - a Texan looks and says nothing, glad they were interested enough to come on by.

Durant tells us:--"Here, almost at the threshold of history, we find an art powerful and mature, superior to that of any modern nation, and equaled only by that of Greece. At first the luxury of isolation and peace, and then, under Thutmose III and Rameses II, the spoils of oppression and war, gave to Egypt the opportunity and the means for massive architecture, masculine statuary, and a hundred minor arts that so early touched perfection. The whole theory of progress hesitates before Egyptian art."

Do the rest of you interpret this to mean, as I do, that WAR leads to the progress of art?

Robby

Yes the soccor mom story is wonderful - here since 9/11 most of the muslim men and women are wearing their traditional clothes shopping and going to the movies where they had been wearing western cloths. This opened the door to so many more smiles and handshakes and just a "How are you doing - are you OK." I thought it was a brilliant way to let people know the size of our muslim community and for the muslim community to be more visable.

hmmm I hadn't thought Robby that it ment war leads to more art. hmmmm Maybe though, since war seems to keep complacensy away and all the creative ability within a people are brought to the forefront in order to out do their enemy and war still opens us to new cultures and topograhy that are a source of inspiration. hmmm

A friendly reminder here that it helps for us to keep to the topic, i.e. Ancient Egypt. I know from emails that there are Lurkers who want to comment on ancient topics but are thrown off by postings which have nothing to do with the subject of this Discussion Group.
Following the book (we are now on Page 184) or constantly checking with the GREEN quotes above will help us to do this.
Robby

"Architecture was the noblest of the ancient arts because it combined in imposing form mass and duration, beauty and use. It began humbly in the adornment of tombs and the external decoration of homes. Dwellings were mostly of mud, with here and there some pretty wood work and a roof strengthened with the tough and pliable trunks of the palm. Around the house, normally, was a wall enclosing a court. From the court steps led to the roof. From this the tenants passed down into the rooms.
"The well-to-do had private gardens, carefully landscaped. The cities provided public gardens for the poor, and hardly a home but had its ornament of flowers. Inside the house the walls were hung with colored mattings, and the floors, if the master could afford it, were covered with rugs. People sat on these rugs rather than on chairs.

"The Egyptians of the Old Kingdom squatted for their meals at tables six inches high, in the fashion of the Japanese, and ate with their fingers. Under the Empire, when slaves were cheap, the upper classes sat on high cushioned chairs, and had their servants hand them course after course."

Upper class and lower class -- rich and poor -- servants serving the family -- city parks for the poor.

So what's new?

Robby

Art especially music is an integral part of every human being in my opinion. When someone says they don't have artistic talent, it might be because they have not look deep enough.

Religion represents itself in artistic works because art describes emotion. Emotion seeks to outwardly espress itself and the ideal vehicle by which it can do that is through art.

At the beginning of Christianity, there was already enough material that artists could use to produce tremendous works of art. Catholicism used this vehicle to increase fervor as it was showing signs of waning when Martin Luther's doctrine appeared to purify the fundamentals of what had originally been taught by Jesus and his desciples. Rome had produced their own version of the Bible, changing several verses and putting new ones in that Catholics had to follow if they wanted to stay within the folds of the Roman church.

Great artistic monuments and cathedrals along with still-famous works by Michaelangelo in the Sistine Chapel, for instance, did increase the fervor of Catholics, showing that art rightfully describing emotions was essential in believers of the Roman Catholic Church. Art describes life as it is, plus emotions living within each and every one of us.

Since the Catholic Church had means to hire artists, it dictated the subject and theme they had to depict in their art. It is not as much because of religion that works of art are produced, it is because religious orders have the money to commission great artists to produce it.

It must have been the same in ancient civilizations such as Egypt. Only royalty and the church can afford great artists to further their doctrine and retain their power by works of art. Artists without financial support only fall into obscurity and poverty and their work forgotton and rot in some obscure attic. Some of their art is as beautiful as the famous ones but get lost for lack of financial support.

Eloïse

Here is a link to more Egyptian art which is in the Louvre.
Egyptian art
When there is war, there are changes. With the overtaking of one country by another comes the construction of buildings and statuary which represent the change in government and the new leaders. I do not think war per se stimulates creativity; I think the exact opposite. However, out of war will come both written works of protest and works of exultation, depending on which side the writers are on.

A fine example of art which came about because the artist so hated the civil war in his country is Guernica by Pablo Picasso. When studied carefully, one can see in this dynamic painting all the horrors of war. I have seen this work at the Museum of Modern Art in New York City many, many times.

Eloise is right. It takes money for artists to do their art. Royalty and aristocrats had and have the kind of money to subsidize artists, so they have been able to create often amazing and wonderful things.

There was a great deal of art produced during the Great Depression in the United States by the artists of the WPA. The government paid artists to design buildings and do all kinds of paintings, especially murals, some of which are seen today in public buildings. Many of the best known artists of that time did work for the WPA.

Mal

Please click below to see Egyptian artifacts, including a triangular loaf of bread which is 4000 years old.

Egyptian Artifacts

Ancient Egypt

This site contains many links to photographs of architecture and other aspects of life in Ancient Egypt.

Did anyone find anything that said where all the Gold came from that was used in ancient Egyptian art - I am assuming Africa but did the Egyptians mine it or do you think they traded for it?

The first illustrated manuscripts developed by the Egyptians were pictures and words combined to communicate information. A preocupation with death and a strong belief in the afterlife compelled the Egyptians to evolve a complex mythology about one's journey into the afterlife. With all forms of illness that people faced in ancient times it is small wonder that death, which was all around them, must be explained and faced.

A final judgment would ultimately allow the deceased either to be admitted into the company of the gods or suffer eternal damnation. (That has a Christian ring.) The prayer of every person was that he would be cleansed of sin and be found worthy at the final judgement. Scribes and artists were commissioned to prepare funerary papri called The Chapters of Coming Forth by Day. We know that today as The Book of the Dead. The beginning of the New Kingdom around 1580 B.C. saw paprus manuscripts come into use for funerary texts.

Even citizens of fairly limited means could now afford to have at least simple papyri to accompany them on the journey into the Underworld. The evolution from the pyramid to the coffin of the common Egyptian became a part of the increasing secular aspect of Egyptian life.

As I remember, the gold was mined in Nubia. I am sure that others have information on that subject. Goldsmithing was another of the Egyptian's great talents.

Copper was the metal used to create the tools that helped build the pryamids and they smelted it themselves. The chisel that was used by Egyptian masons to carve out the stones for the pyramids was made of copper and called a gad and had to be reshaped frequently because of its softness. I understand that the ancient Egyptians only had copper available to them for use as tools.

In earlier postings when we were touching upon the neighboring African civilizations (Nubia, Kush, etc), we discussed the trade, some of it for gold, that Egypt engaged in.

I just read that gold was mined in the time of the pharaohs in Sukari about 670 kilometers from Cairo. Romans mined gold there later, so did the British. Now an Australian company is going to be mining gold in Sukari, too.

"Here is the Sphinx, conveying by its symbolism the leonine quality of some masterful Pharaoh -- perhaps Khafre-Chephren. It has not only size, as some have thought, but character. The cannon-shot of the Mamelukes have broken the nose and shorn the beard, but nevertheless those gigantic features portray with impressive skill the force and dignity, the calm, and sceptical maturity, of a natural king. Across those motionless features a subtle smile has hovered for five thousand years, as if already the unknown artist or monarch had understood all that men would ever understand about men.
It is Mona Lisa in stone."

"Not for many centuries did Egyptian sculpture equal again the achievements of the early dynasties. Because most of the statuary was made for the temples or the tombs, the priests determined to a great degree what forms the artist should follow. And the natural convervatism of religion crept into art, slowly stifling sculpture into a conventional, stylistic degeneration."

I find interestng the fact that religion affects art so strongly. When we have completed Volume One, if there is anyone on Senior Net who would like to move onto Volume Two, "The Life of Greece," I feel certain we will find that the same will be true -- the effect of the religion of ancient Greece on Greek sculpture. But that topic is for another time.

Perhaps we could, without digressing too much, compare what happened in Ancient Egypt with the effect that religion is having on art in our current civilization.

Robby

Well, religion certainly played a big part in the fight about what has become known as the Brooklyn Madonna.

Mal

Robby - I certainly love Greek civilization because it is nearer to us, I guess, but by moving into it gradually overlapping the two is also very appealing because it makes for a slow progress and we can see Egyptian culture and compare it with the Greek culture as civilization is advancing.

Mal:--

But could we agree that this is not what Durant meant. In Brooklyn, we had civic leaders using religion to further their views -- as opposed to the sculpting of churches, cathedrals, cemetery headstones, etc. being influenced by specific religions. The National Cathedral in Washington, DC, comes to my mind. It is not my intention to get into Islam at this point. Durant touches on that a bit later as we approach India -- but the appearance of certain Mosques also comes to mind.

Robby

Eloise:--In this volume, "Our Oriental Heritage," Durant tells us a bit about Alexander the Great, so the two civilizations will be overlapped.

Robby

A major step forward in visual communications was the development of papyrus, a paperlike surface for writing manuscripts. In ancient times the plant grew along the Nile in shallow marshes and pools, and the Egyptians made extensive use of this plant. From the stem, they made sails, mats, cloth, rope, sandals, and most important, papyrus.

After a long process of developing sheets made of the papyrus stems, eight different grades were made for uses from royal proclamations to everyday accounting.

The finished sheet had an upper surface called the recto and the bottom surface (vertical fibers) was called the verso. The terms are still used today in graphic design.

There was even a monopoly on papryus, controlled out of a city on the Nile, I can't remember what that name was. You bought rolls of up to 49 centimeters in height, and up to twenty sheets would be glued together to make a scroll with the recto side facing inward. Mass production and wide marketing of papyrus helped bring about the development of demotic writing. But writing still had not developed into the true alphabet.

The illustrated Egyptian papyri followed a consistent design format. Colored bands ran across the top and the bottom of the manuscript. Vertical columns of writing seperated by ruled lines were written from right to left. First, the scribe would write the manuscript, then the artist would fill in the illustrations. This caused problems in early manuscripts for the artist had to fill in the blanks as best he could. But as time went on the illustrations became more important than the text, (the client probably couldn't read anyway) so the scribe then had to fill in the text as best that he could after the artist had finished the illustrations.

You could commission a funerary papyrus, or buy a stock copy and have your name filled in the appropriate places. You could also select the number and choice of chapters, the number and quality of illustrations, and the length. The avarage Book of the Dead scroll ranged from 4.6 meters to 27.7 meters in length. Some things surely are not new. Budget was the deciding factor and the client was always right!

Robby:

I feel it's important when religion affects the reaction of the viewer or listener to a work of art. It was not just civic leaders who were offended by the Brooklyn Madonna, many people were, but I understand your point in post
# 359.

Musical instruments in Ancient Egypt included drums, rattles, castanets and bells. The "sistrum" rattle was a very important instrument, since it was used in religious worship. Rhythm, as represented by these instruments, played a big part in the music of Ancient Egypt.

There were not just percussion instruments, stringed instruments were used widely - harps, lyres, lutes. These were plucked, not bowed.

There were wind instruments in the form of double and single reed flutes.

There were professional musicians with temple musicians at the top. Entertainers for parties, including dancers were lower down on the scale. That's really not too different from the attitude of many people today.

Music was not notated or written down in any way until the Greco-Roman period.

Mal

At 10:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time on the History Channel Thursday night, December 20, 2001

Experts and historians examine the architecture and genius involved in making the pyramids.

It has closed captioning.

"Egyptian religion cooperated with Egyptian wealth to inspire and foster art, and cooperated with Egypt's loss of empire and affluence to ruin it. Religion offered motives, ideas and the inspiration, but it imposed conventions and restraints which bound art so completely to the church that when sincere religion died among the artists, the arts that had lived on it died too.

"This is the tragedy of almost every civilizatiion -- that its soul is in its faith, and seldom survives philosophy."

Music, painting, illuminations, theatre, and architecture, all get a boost from war. The arts get increased financial support as well as an altered perspective.There are more public sources of funds available for the arts during war. The U.S. Army and the Navy in WWll used the arts extensively not only for recruiting but for propaganda purposes. Other countries, also used the arts for these purposes. Skills learned while engaged in these activities are in many cases carried over into a peace time world. So there are more artists around at the end of a war. They may be then unemployed but soon become self-employed. Architecture gets a boost when replacement of damaged buildings is required and things are rebuilt in new art forms. New schools of art develop to satisfy the need. Cities all over Britain and Germany were completely rebuilt after the last World War. The benefit of war for the arts is not new. After the Crusades the arts of the Middle Ages were thoroughly altered. New Byzantine art forms brought back from the Middle East influenced all the arts in Europe but particularly those in architecture.

Akhenaten and his queen Nefertiti developed a radical break in Egyptian history, lasting only during Akhenaten's lifetime. He abandoned the state god and worshiped Aten, the sun disk alone and he is represented in a far more realistic style of reliefs and sculpture.

When I was a child, I would curl up with old, musty National Geographics on hot summer days down in the basement where it was cooler and I can still remember seeing a photograph of an Egyptian worker carrying the famous sculpture of Nefertiti out ot the tomb that it was found in on a wooden box top. At long last I got to see that famous sculpture in a museum in Berlin. It is in a darkened room encased in glass with guards and spotlights and is rather small. It really is a study for a larger sculpture of Nefertiti when she was young. It is so beautiful and its balance, or near inbalance, is fantastic. I later saw a study done of her in middle age and it was very realistic in portraying her age.

Someone asked in a post what Egypt exported. Wheat and barley for bread and beer, the staple diet of not only Egypt but later of Rome.

Toward the final collapse of Egyptian culture, The Book of the Dead consisted of only sheets of papyrus, some only a few inches square. Old traditions die hard.

Ellen reminds us of "old musty National Geographics." I agree that some of the finest photos of the Sphinx, the Pyramids and other relics of Ancient Egypt were and continue to be in that wonderful magazine.

Robby

"Historians of philosophy have been wont to begin their story with the Greeks. The Hindus, who believe that they invented philosophy, and the Chinese, who believe that they perfected it, smile at our provincialism. It may be that we are all mistaken. Among the most ancient frgments left to us by the Egyptians are writings that belong, however loosely and untechnically, under the rubric of moral philosophy. The wisdom of the Egyptians was a proverb with the Greeks, who felt themselves children beside this ancient race."

I remember stating when this discussion group began in November that I knew very little about Ancient Egypt. Yes, I knew there was a Sphinx and that there were Pyramids and a few familiar names of Pharaohs scattered here and there. But if the names of philosophers came up, my history teacher most certainly didn't tell us about Ancient Egyptian philosophers. Would I be correct in saying that most of you here, in your studies of philosophy, began with Aristotle and Plato and other Ancient Greek philosophers? Did we ever go earlier than that? And then, of course, we continued on reading about Descartes and other European philosophers, completely ignoring our ORIENTAL HERITAGE. Durant defines this as "provincialism." My perspective has completely changed. I will never again look at what we have today without thinking of that powerful oriental thought that influences us.

Note the revised GREEN quotes above.

Robby

"This is the tragedy of almost every civilizatiion -- that its soul is in its faith, and seldom survives philosophy."

The soul runs after lofty goals. When the goals become too mundane they lose momentum. An artist’s abstract imagination needs the unknown to be able to create an ideal that other people can relate to as they think, “that is beautiful”. In other words when someone thinks that about his work, the artist has reached the soul of the person appreciating it.

Faith provided some necessary abstract elements for artist in ancient times to draw upon because faith both elevated the soul while still remaining mysterious and unexplained. If he lost it, where will he have found another unknown to draw upon in order to create.

Philosophy seeks to prove and explain the foundation of concepts, sometimes going too far in theory for the artist to stay within the imaginary world that he needs for his creative mind. If he loses his abstract thinking, he loses the essential to create something from an unknown.

When a religious order becomes powerful and rich it becomes corrupt and priests while still appearing religious cannot transmit their religion especially to artists, who can see through phoniness, become disillusioned and lose their faith.

There is a vast difference between the religious orders men produce and the deep rooted beliefs some people have. The first can almost be considered a lucrative business, while the other needs no organization no money and no building to worship. Faith is enough.

Éloïse

My husband in Egypt has been occasionally reading along with us as I incorporate some especially interesting posts into emails for him. He mentioned recently that when he was studying for his Ph.D. at the University of Sheffield, he remembers taking an Ancient World History class, which did NOT include ancient Egypt. When he questioned the instructor, he was told "no one is intersted in ancient Egypt, nor would they understand anything about it now." My husband was not only culturally embarassed, but wondered how someone with such a narrow mind could be assigned to teach such a broad-based topic without understanding the relevance of Egypt in the ancient world.

Robby , you asked if anyone was taught civilizations before Aristotle in High School. I was taught the Fertile Crescent civilizations of Sumerians, Phonicians and several others icluding the Code of Hammurab as the basis of Western Law. The study of the Sian civilization in China that predated the early western civilizations by more than two thousand years was touched on but not as in depth as the civilizations along the Tigris and the Euprates Rivers.

Jere

Jere:--My guess is that your being taught in depth about the civilization along the Tigris and the Euphrates is an exception. I am interested in hearing the experiences of others in that regard.

Robby

Does the quote above beginning "There was a small..." hold true also for today?

Robby

We have approximately 10-12 people who post regularly here. Based on the number of emails I receive from people who want to comment about our current discussions but do not want to post publicly, I estimate that the number of "lurkers" is twice the number of those who post. This means that we probably have 25-30 members of or "family" here -- some of whom who post and some who don't. Occasionally one or more of them pop their heads out and say "boo!"

As we move toward the conclusion of the section on Ancient Egypt, I urge -- PLEASE! -- our lurkers to make themselves known in a post here, if only to share a word of two. Those of you who post would be surprised to find that they know many of the Lurkers. They are all good friends of ours.

Robby

I too remember studying Egypt - I still remember the huge rue ha about the Rosetta Stone and I remember it was on our 6th grade test - why that stuck in my memory I will never know - that was the first thing and also the Magna Carta that I wanted to see the first time I visited London. I remember visiting the Museum of Art in New York City when I was in High School and seeing the huge collection of Egyptian work.

China may claim perfection of the Hindu phylosophy/religion but the beginnings of Taoism is much older - and much older than what we have learned so far of the phylosophy/religion of Egypt.

Date between 7000–5700 B.C. Six exquisitely preserved flutes and fragments of many others made from the ulnae of the red-nosed crane are excavated at Jiahu, in the Yellow River basin of Henan Province, central China, an extensive site with multiple dwellings and a massive cemetery. These are the earliest complete, playable, multinote instruments.

Also uncovered at Jiahu, Pictograms and signs carved on tortoiseshells. Shells were used in divination, the premise of the Taoist philosophy/religion. (They were subjected to intense heat and the cracks that formed were read as omens. The cracks were then carved as permanent marks on the surface of the shell. The finding of shell pictograms from Jiahu indicate that the Daoist oral tradition is matching evidence that have deeper roots than previously considered.) The practice continues for centuries, and inscriptions on oracle bones from the later Shang dynasty provide some of the earliest evidence for writing.

The earliest known sculpture, from the Neolithic period (7000–4500 B.C.) was found at the site of Merimde Beni Salama in the Delta in Egypt. The sculpture is a representation of a human face.

Aha found this bit - 4500 and 4000 B.C. is when cattle arrives in North Africa. Farmers in Israel and Jordan begin to cultivate olives and dates, and herders begin to use milk products from domesticated animals.

In the period between 3700–2800 B.C. along the Nile there is a split (A-Group). A distinct culture, develops in Lower Nubia. The A-Group people produce ceramic figurines, decorated pottery vessels, and a very fine, thin-walled ceramic known as eggshell ware. They trade with Egypt artifacts and raw materials for the goods of Egyptian manufacture. At first they are politically fragmented governed by local rulers, the A-Group people eventually seem to be ruled by a series of powerful and very prosperous kings (ca. 3100–2800 B.C.)

And in the time frame between 3500 - 3000 B.C. cities emerge in China with the largest being Uruk. Walls and massive columns of some buildings are decorated with mosaics of colored stone. Stone carving reaches new heights of artistry, with humans, animals, and deities represented. A few lifesize, are found in sites associated with the Hongshan culture such as Dongshangzui and the "Temple of the Goddess" in Liaoning Province.

Shaped clay tokens used for record keeping disappear with the development of cuneiform writing, which uses a reed stylus to incise and later impress signs on clay tablets. Stamp seals are largely replaced by cylinder seals, allowing a wider repertoire of designs and motifs. Representational images such as the "priest king," found at Uruk, are also on seals and carvings in Egypt and Iran.

In an effort to put this in percpective - In the time frame of 5500 B.C. groups of farmers begin to settle in Europe, growning wheat and Barley crops from the Near East.

In about 4500 B.C. the earliest farming takes place on the Iberian Peninsula (dated by the grains of cultivated barley found in a cave site near Alicante, Spain) Agriculture fosters the need for cooperation among communities and the formation of villages. Evidence of animal pens and huts made from branches are found.

During 3550 - 2800 B.C. in Central Portugal and Southeast Spain there are an abundance of fortified, settlements. The long-term occupation of these villages is based agriculture. There is evidence of social status and rank.

Yarns made from plant fibers and wooden paddles decorated with impressed geometric patterns have been found at Tybrind Vig, a coastal site in Denmark dating from 3600B.C.

3500 B.C. People of the Old Copper culture around the Great Lakes use native copper for tools.

Barbara:--Any thoughts you would care to share with us regarding Philosophy in Ancient Egypt as exemplified by the GREEN quotes above?

Eobby

Robby I think I have shared in an earlier post that I think the demise of Egyptian phylosophy/religion had to do with the push for one God. Some how the Gods of Greece and Rome were mythicized where as Egyptian Gods were pushed out of favor. It may be because Egypt went head to head with Israel - certainly there is more art from all three cultures and yet it is the Hebrew that continues as a thriving religion/phylosophy/culture.

hmmm another thought I wonder the fact that untill the Rosetta Stone was translated later generations could not read the Egyptian gliphics where as Greek and Latin continues as a readable language as does the Hebrew language.

"Barbara, you say:--"I think the demise of Egyptian philosophy/religion had to do with the push for one God."

You combine the two (philosophy and religion) but if I understand Durant correctly, he is separating the two as he examines this civilization. In fact, his next section which we will approach after we discuss philosophy, is specifically that -- religion.

In discussing philosophy, Durant quotes Prah-hotep in his "Instructions" given in the latter stages of his life (when, as many of us know) we often tend to become philosophical. Ptah-hotep retired from the office of Prime Minister to the King, under the Fifth Dynasty and wrote the following to his son:--

"Be not proud because thou art learned, but discourse with the ignorant man as with the sage. For no limit can be set to skill, neither is there any craftsman that possesses full advantages.
"Fair speech is more rare than the emerald that is found by slave-maidens among the pebbles.
"Live in the house of kindliness, and men shall come and give gifts of themselves.
"Beware of making enmity by thy words.
"Overstep not the truth, neither repeat that which any man saith in opening the heart. It is abhorrent to the soul."

None of his comments here refer to religion but they are definitely philosophical in nature.

Any reactions here to these words by Ptah-hotep? Any relevance to our own civilization?

Robby

Ramses III's reign in the 20th dynasty was beset with both external and internal problems. Ramses III had to deal with the Libyan invasion of the delta. Sea Peoples coming toward Egypt through Syria were fought by the Egyptians in Palestine. The Nubian prisoners of war were pressed into Egyptian military camps where they became military personnel. And as we know, the military must be paid and have a tendency to get mixed up in politics. These wars were not too kind on the budget. As they were defensive wars, they just did not bring in loot for the Egyptian treasury.

The two victories did save Egyptian civilization for another millennium.

Adminstrative inefficiency in coping with a deteriorating economic situation due to supporting these wars resulted in the government's failure to deliver grain rations to necropolis workers who demonstrated and pulled a sit-down strike. It's the first in recorded history.

There was also a plot to murder Ramses III, hatched in his harem and the whole conspiracy went to trial, where certain judges and officials were of foreign origin and made up the court. Five judges out of twelve got sentences for "carousing with the women on trial".

The barbarians were at the gate.

Ellen:--Any reaction to the philosophical words of Ptah-hotep?

Robby

I Lurk because I don't have the book and because I find the comments so interesting. My thoughts arter reading some of the last posts is this.

When Adam and Eve were created they were given a language. Could it be that that language was Hebrew?

I am behind in reading.

I was thinking of music and am wondering when and where belly dancing began. We used t live across the street from a Greek Orthodox Church. When they had summer festivals, they would have mostly Lebanese and Syrian foods and a belly dancer complete with live music. It was wonderful. We could even hear the music in our house!

I have a record from Egypt, I believe, that shows some belly dancing on the cover and very good music inside.

Linda

My reaction to Pla-hotep's words to his son are; not to be blinded by your position of power but to be truthful to yourself in understanding that the whole world around you is really one, that everyone in your society is interdependent on one another. To keep communication open with the people who support your world. What is your interpretation?

Louise:--You bring up a question that I am sure will lead to much heated discussion at a later time. That time will arrive when Durant moves into the discussion of Judea.
I'm sort of confused as to your remark that "I Lurk because I find the comments so interesting." Wouldn't the fact that you find the comments so interesting lead you to making an occasional posting? I certainly hope so. As for your not having the book, regularly checking the quotes above in GREEN will help to keep you up to date. We are currently on page 194 in the book. Please share your thoughts with us. We are all together here in trying to learn more about our ORIENTAL HERITAGE.
Robby

Linda asks:--"I was thinking of music and am wondering when and where belly dancing began."

In some earlier postings, we saw links which led us to seeing pictographs of the Ancient Egyptians dancing. I couldn't tell if they were a sort of belly dancing or not. Now I am wondering.

Robby

Louise, I think the Aramean (Aramaic?) language predates Hebrew.

Robby, I too learned all about the Egyptians while in in school about the pharaons, the architecture, the philosophes, the hyeroglyphs,above akk the wonder of the Rosetta stone. As a result, on my first trip to Paris as a teenager, I spent all my mornings at the Louvre museum in the Egyptian wing. One of the persons in charge there, seeing my interest, told me of the underground rooms filled with unopened treasures and even mummies. It made me dream. My love and interest for ancient civilizations causes me to read faithfully the National Geographic Magazine for the last fifteen years. Bubble

Robby I am here everyday.....Just let me say this besides"boo"...I learn as much from some of the posters comments as from Durants Book....

Ellen interprets Ptah-hotep's philosophical comments to his son as telling him:--"not to be blinded by your position of power but to be truthful to yourself in understanding that the whole world around you is really one."

I see it the same way and once again it brings to my mind the question if that much has changed over the centuries. Again that phrase: "The more things change, the more they remain the same."

Robby

Bubble:--How fortunate you are in having been in the Egyptian Wing of the Louvre!! I am wondering how many folks here have spent any time recently or even years ago in examining in detail any museum displays of Ancient Egyptian artifacts. Where did you go? What did you see? What was your reaction?

And are there any here who, since we began together perusing "Our Oriental Heritage", have decided to go to a local museum to see what they have regarding Ancient Egypt?

Has this discussion stirred up your interest to that point?

Robby

Tigerliley:--As for your comment that "I learn as much from some of the posters comments as from Durants Book."I'm with you! A comment in the heading above says: "In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals."

This Discussion Group was never meant to be a "review" of a book. It was meant to be a forum where we first look at whichever ancient civilization we are reading about at the time -- and then observing our own civilization. And when we swap thoughts back and forth, we are in effect describing our own selves, therefore our own civilization.

This is why I constantly urge everyone here to speak up now and then and I am so pleased to see some of you (if you'll forgive the choice of words) "coming out of the woodwork." I knew you were there!!

Please continue to participate.

Robby

Philosophy classes taken in undergraduate work,(so long ago), it seems to me, were devoted to philosophy and not to the history of philosophy. Perhaps, for that reason they focused on the Greeks at the begining.This was in the late 40's and early 50's. Awareness of Egyptian philosphy may not have deepened enough to merit coverage. Ancient history classes for me dealt with the Egyptian period. And I distinctly remember discusions about Amarna and Ikhnaten and his interest in "one" god. The laws of Hamurabi and the rosetta stone as the key to cuneiform translation entered my brain through the same course. I have seen the Rosetta Stone, I think it was at the British Museum. Not sure about that. I have spent time in the Egyptian rooms at the Louvre. The pieces in New York at the Met are also worthwhile.One sculpture of Sahura from the 5th dynasty and a deity shows a figure in a contre-posto stance which we have always associated with the Greeks. The fifth dynasty was around 2500 BCE and pre-dates the Greeks by a couple of thousand years.The Rosicrucians is a group that shows interest in the Egyptian civilization and very often their lodge halls show interesting reproductions of Egyptian artifacts.

Justin tells us:--"The fifth dynasty was around 2500 BCE and pre-dates the Greeks by a couple of thousand years."

As we delve into ancient history, how easily we throw around a millennium or two. To paraphrase a politician of a few decades ago (was it Everett Dirksen?) - a thousand years here and a thousand years there and the next thing you know, you're into real time.

I don't know about the rest of you, but the more I am into "The Story of Civilization," the humbler I get.

Robby

Although the following link features an article about contemporary Arab women from several countries (including Egypt), I believe it is sufficiently interesting to post here and may serve to provide additional understanding of the ancient cultures from which several of these women claim ancestry. It also balances the wide-spread misunderstanding about Arab women (whether Muslim or Christian) and brings to light that not only ANCIENT Egyptian women had a strong voice in their society, but that that tradition has continued on into the contempoary period.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A63016-2001Dec18.html

Tomorrow, and tomorrow, and tomorrow
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all your yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more; it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

---William Shakespeare in MacBeth

Robby you ask why I link - philosophy /religion - first of all what is religion - the dictionary says it is: The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power recognized as the creator and governor of the universe.

Out of that simple belief we have various groups that have organized based on how to express that reverence and in addition, how to know the truth most often through a practice of self-discipline.

The truth is sought about ourselves,
what is acceptable behavior,
how this supernatural power affects us as humans,
what we name this supernatural power,
if there are more than one manifestations of this supernatural power,
how we gain access or wisdom from this supernatural power, on and on.

As I understand phylosophy it is the search for truth or as the dictionary says: Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline. The critique and analysis of fundamental beliefs as they come to be conceptualized and formulated.

And theology is: the study of the nature of God and religious truth, rational imquary into religious questions especially those posed by an organized religious community.

To me there is phylosophy and theology in religion. Durant seems to have a bleak out-look for any society that looses its connection with what I see as being called "organized" religion. He also does not see religion, (The belief in and reverence for a supernatural power recognized as the creator and governor of the universe) in science or as I read the following in the realm of the scientists conception of the universe.

And now this quote from Durant:

A certain tension between religion and society marks the highest stages of every civilization. Religion begins by offering magical aid to harassed and bewildered men; it culminates by giving to a people that unity of morals and belief which seems so favorable to statesmanship and art; it ends by fighting suicidally in the lost cause of the past. For as knowledge grows or alters continually, it clashes with mythology and theology, which change with geological leisureliness.

Priestly control of arts and letters is then felt as a galling shackle or hateful barrier, and intellectual history takes on the character of a "conflict between science and religion" Institutions which were at first in the hands of the clergy, like law and punishment, education and morals, marriage and divorce, tend to escape from ecclesiastical control and become secular, perhaps profane. The intellectual classes abandon the ancient theology and -- after some hesitation -- the moral code allied with it; literature and philosophy become anticlerical.

The movement of liberation rises to an exuberant worship of reason, and falls to a paralyzing disillusionment with every dogma and every idea. Conduct, deprived of its religious supports, deteriorates into epicurean chaos; and life itself, shorn of consoling faith, becomes a burden alike, to conscious poverty and to weary wealth. In the end, a society and its religion tend to fall together, like body and soul, in a harmonious death. Meanwhile, among the oppressed, another myth arises, gives new form to human hope, new courage to human effort, and after centuries of chaos builds another civilization.

I do not see change that comes about through knowledge as the chaos that leads to the lose of faith. Certainly we in the US are adamant in the sepertion of church and state - I guess we need to ask what is our collective myth since we do have so many different versions of religion, religious truth, religious practices, fundamental beliefs practiced in the US. Where there is the freedom of religion, believing in a supernatural power or practising a certain religious centered self-discipline is not a requirement to be part of the US society nor, is there any attempt to unify all these truths. And so a seperation of religion from phylosophy just does not compute for me.

Especially does it not compute when many of the religions from the East are not even given the status of a religion in our culture and are simply labled a phylosophy eg. Doaism, Budhhism. Seems to me any religion that express a reverence for multiple incarnations of God are the ones labled by the West phylosophies.

Soem great Durant links about philosophy and religion.

http://www.willdurant.com/philosophy.htm

http://www.willdurant.com/pleasures.htm

http://www.willdurant.com/religion.htm

Barbara in your link about phylosophy:

"Knowledge is power, but only wisdon is freedom......Our culture is superficial today, and our knowledge dangerous, because we are rich in mechanisms and poor in purposes. The balance of mind which once came of a warm religious faith is gone; science has taken from us the supernatural bases of our morality and all the world seems consumed in a disorderly individualism that reflects the chaotic fragmentation of our character.

We move about the earth with unprecedented speed, but we do not know, and have not thought, where we are going, or whether we shall find any happiness there for our harassed souls. We are being destroyed by our knowledge, which has made us drunk with our power. And we shall not be saved without wisdom." Will durant.

Yes Eloise - and that is why I think Durant has a bias - because that doomsday drunk with power concept I just do not see as the prevalent lifestyle of the majority of folks, even those in the scientific world. I do not see all this superficiality - when I was a child all we had time to do was "work" and some of us "read." Today without the creative thinking of science and its by-line disciplines we wouldn't even be able to post our thoughts to each other as we are here on seniornet. No, not everyone has used the mass- media or the wonders of the internet for serious study or inguary but how much more able is the young person today as compared to those brought up in the 1930s. Not only able but so much more thoughtful and aware of differences as well as a concept of integrity. Look at the difference in the poplular story Harry Potter as compared to Nancy Drew or the Bobbsy Twins.

Poor in purpose when we in this country have opened doors for women and blacks as the women and blacks in the 1930s could hardly imagine. That so many illnesses are treatable and going to a hospital no longer means death as it did in the 1930s.

I just cannot agree with Durant when he says "science has taken from us the supernatural bases of our morality and all the world seems consumed in a disorderly individualism that reflects the chaotic fragmentation of our character."

Changed yes, anyone trying to hang on to a controlled stability of thinking based on a stable canon of knowledge is doomed to seeing disorder and chaos. Hand and glove with adventure is challenge, risk, exploration, enthusiasm and excitement. Excitement means to put into action and we have learned within enthusiam is the Greek for religious feeling. Therefore to me change emenating from adventure, discovery is the action toward a religious feeling or God.

Many of these comments about religion and science were covered in earlier postings prior to discussing Ancient Egypt. May I suggest that we move on to Durant's comments about Philosophy in Ancient Egypt. We are currently on Page 195.

Robby

Another philosophical treatise was written by someone whom Durant described as an "Egyptian Swinburne." It says:--

"Death is before me today
Like the recovery of a sick man,
Like going forth into a garden after sickness
Death is before me today
Like the odor of myrrh
Like sitting under the sail on a windy day.
Death is before me today
Like the odor of lotus-flowers,
Like sitting on the shore of drunkenness.
Death is before me today
Like the course of a freshet,
Like the return of a man from the war-galley to his house...
Death is before me today
As a man longs to see his home
When he had spent years of captivity."

Might not a philosopher in today's civilization who is looking forward to death use similar terms?

Robby

phi·los·o·phy n., pl. -phies. Love and pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means and moral self-discipline. Investigation of the nature, causes, or principles of reality, knowledge, or values, based on logical reasoning rather than empirical methods. A system of thought based on or involving such inquiry: the philosophy of Hume. The critical analysis of fundamental assumptions or beliefs. The disciplines presented in university curriculums of science and the liberal arts, except medicine, law, and theology. The discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology. A set of ideas or beliefs relating to a particular field or activity; an underlying theory: an original philosophy of advertising. A system of values by which one lives: has an unusual philosophy of life. [Middle English philosophie, from Old French, from Latin philosophia, from Greek philosophiā, from philosophos, lover of wisdom, philosopher. See philosopher.]

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philosophy [Gk., = love of wisdom], study of the ultimate reality, causes, and principles underlying being and thinking. Western philosophy, dating from c.600 B.C., when the Greeks established inquiry independent of theological creeds, is traditionally divided into five major branches. Metaphysics inquires into the nature and ultimate significance of the universe, holding reality to subsist in thought (idealism), in matter (materialism), or in both (dualism). Logic is concerned with the laws of valid reasoning. Epistemology investigates the nature of knowledge and the process of knowing. Ethics deals with the problems of right conduct. Aesthetics attempts to determine the nature of beauty and the criteria of artistic judgment. Historically, philosophy falls into three major periods. Classical (Greek and Roman) philosophy emphasized a concern with the ultimate nature of reality and the problem of virtue in a political context; in fact, virtually all of the problems of philosophy were defined by the Greeks. Socrates, Plato, and Aristotle were the towering figures of classical philosophy. Medieval philosophy in the West was virtually inseparable from Christian thought. Scholasticism, the high achievement of medieval philosophy, was based on Aristotelian principles as preserved by Arab philosophers, notably Avicenna and Averroës. St. Thomas Aquinas was the most prominent of the scholastics. The main concern of modern philosophy, beginning with the Renaissance, has been epistemology. Descartes, Spinoza, Leibniz, and other great rationalists of the 17th cent. attempted to give the new science a philosophical basis and thus paved the way for empiricism. (See articles on Hobbes; Hume; Locke.) Kant, representing a bridge between empirical and rationalist views, influenced the idealism of Fichte, Schelling, and Hegel. Marx, drawing from Hegel's system, developed dialectical materialism. Late in the 19th cent. philosophy and religious thinking diverged. In Europe phenomenology and existentialism, and later structuralism and deconstruction, developed, while Britain and the U.S. focused on the philosophy of science, epistemology, and logic, and more recently on ethics and political philosophy, as in John Rawls' theory of justice. The many rigorous systems of Eastern philosophy are founded in religion (see Buddhism; Confucianism; Hinduism; Islam; Jainism; Shinto; Taoism; Vedanta). See also names of individual philosophers, e.g., Nietzsche, Friedrich; Schopenhauer, Arthur; Teilhard de Chardin, Pierre.

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philosophy A study that attempts to discover the fundamental principles of the sciences, the arts, and the world that the sciences and arts deal with; the word philosophy is from the Greek for “love of wisdom.” Philosophy has subdisciplines that explore principles of specific areas, such as knowledge (epistemology), reasoning (logic), being in general (metaphysics), beauty (aesthetics), and human conduct (ethics).

Different approaches to philosophy, or to its subdisciplines, are also called philosophies. (See epicureanism, existentialism, idealism, materialism, nihilism, pragmatism, stoicism, and utilitarianism.)

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I marked out some passages in red . fp

I think so many of us do not seperate philosophy from religion yet they are or started out to be, different disciplines.Whole civilizations forgot that.

I think it would be helpful in answering Robby who has repeated his question regarding our opinion the part philosophy plays in the ending of a religion or a civilization..

I don't think civilizations end with a crash, it seems from my reading it is more a overlay of a new culture on an old one that erodes one "civilization" and slowly turns it into another form of culture. I do agree with The Green Quote at the bottom of the list at the top. I am assuming it is referring to the time at the end of a period of great development and then a stopping of that upward flow of civilization

"There was a small but vital minority that pondered the problems of life and death. There were millions of simple men and women who remained faithful to the gods" faithp

Faith:--

The definition from the dictionary you pulled out saying that philosophy is "the discipline comprising logic, ethics, aesthetics, metaphysics, and epistemology" is what I interpreted Durant to be saying, as he had two separate sections -- Philosophy and Religion.

As for "medieval philosophy in the West being virtually inseparable from Christian thought,"at a later date if we should decide to enter Volume Two, "The Life of Greece," we might find ourselves examining that in more detail.

Faith says:--"I think so many of us do not separate philosophy from religion yet they are different disciplines." We therefore are discussing them as such because Durant put them into two separate sections, at least in his comments about Ancient Egypt. That these two disciplines often overlap, there can be no doubt and perhaps we are ready to move onto his comments about Religion.

Robby

Some parts of philosophy seem more tied to religion than others, specifically, morality and ethics. Logic and the others are not necessarily, but, in my mind, for morality and ethics to be effectual and "correct," it needs to be somewhat connected to religion, if nothing more than the Ten Commandments. Just my little 2 euros worth.

Linda

I see that Linda has moved over to a different monetary basis. You're too up to date. Ancient Egypt did not handle Euros.

Robby

I'm still a lurker here, but will add this ---- I do remember studying about Egypt in elementary school, but don't remember any classes on it later. I've visted the Egyptian exhibits at the Louvre, too, and found them very interesting. Also saw Egyptian exhibits at the University of Pennsylvania Museum. Saw the Rosetta Stone at the British Museum, and was surprised to see how small it actually was. I guess I expected something very large to have been such a great discovery! Anne

Anne! So good to hear from you!! Obviously you are not a stranger to museums. I have often been surprised at how small "great" historical items are. For example, I was so disappointed at the size of Plymouth Rock!!
Please continue to post items, Anne.

Robby

Thanks for the Ambassador's Wives article. Unfortunately the image was tarnished today when Princess Buniah al-Saud was arrested for abusing her maid. She is charged with beating and pushing the maid down a flight of stairs.No diplomatic immunity. The rest of the gals must be very unhappy with her. Tough break.

I am seen sarcohagi depicting coptic art and I thought these were Egyptian Christians. Am I correct in that assumption. Do they have anything to do with Dura Europus? Any help from the discussants will be appreciated.

JUSTIN - in such a large family, there is bound to be a rotten princess in at least one hara'em.

It would be difficult to imagine a philosophy course without St Augustine, Thomas Acquinas, the Scholastics, and David Hume. These philosophers all dealt with questions concerning the existance and the relevance of a god in society. These questions are similar to those treated by religions.However, in the case, of philosphy one questions and argues. In the case of religion, the answer is a given.

At school we only touched very briefly on Egypt and then it was in the lower classes (10 year olds). We learnt mostly 19th and 20th century history and most of it from a British point of view. Ancient civilizations are not touched on very deeply here except at University. Few people now take the courses involved. My librarian informs me anthropology and the classics are where you can take this subject in depth. (My four year old granddaughter thinks my childhood is in ancient days LOL)

Carolyn

"In Ancient Egypt we find religion in every stage and form from totemism to theology. We see its influence in literature, in government, in art, in everything EXCEPT MORALITY. And it is not only varied, it is tropically abundant. Only in Rome and India shall we find so plentiful a pantheon. We cannot understand the Egyptian -- or Man -- until we study his gods."

This is a powerful paragraph. We are trying to understand the Ancient Egyptian. Do we, then, as Durant recommends, understand his gods?

Robby

Robby - "And it is not only varied, it is tropically abundant".

Could you explain this for me? The meaning excapes me except that the climate favors the building of large monuments.

I interpret the phrase tropically abundant to mean the gods were as plentiful as trees and plants in a rain forest in the Tropics.

Durant tells us that the first gods were sky gods: the sun, the moon, the stars. This sounds quite primeval to me, as does the fact that other gods were animals, especially the goat and the bull.

Then we're told that heroic men became gods. There was Isis, the Great Mother, loyal sister and wife of Osiris.

Ra,Osiris, Isis and Horus were the greater gods of Egypt, Durant says. Later Ra, Amon and Ptah were combined as a kind of trinity.

The Pharaoh was a god. My goodness, there were a lot of them!

Herodotus said about priests: "They are of all men the most attentive to worship of the gods." That hasn't changed much today.

There was a great emphasis on immortality which passed on to Christianity. It interests me that there was a kind of heaven idea in the "Happy Field of Food". A cleansing of all sins was necessary to reach this paradise. As I understand it, The Book of the Dead was an important part of this. There was also a kind of confession practiced.

Interesting that Egyptian religion didn't say much about morality, isn't it? Durant says that priests were "busier selling charms, mumbling incantations and performing magic rites than inculcating ethical precepts". Was morality left to philosophy?

Do I understand the gods of the Ancient Egyptians? Only in relation to what had passed before and what was to come in later days and later religions.

Mal

Ancient Egyptian Religion

Eloise:--I agree with Mal on the use of the term "tropical." It was just a way Durant had of apeaking.

Robby

"The priests of Egypt were the necessary props of the throne, and the secret police of the social order. Given a faith of such complexity, a class had to arise adept in magic and ritual, whose skill would make it indispensable in approaching the gods. In effect, though not in law, the office of priest passed down from father to son, and a class grew up which, through the piety of the people and the politic generosity of the kings, became in time richer and stronger than the feudal aristocracy or the royal family itself.
"The sacrifices offered to the gods supplied the priests with food and drink. The temple buildings gave them spacious homes. The revenues of temple lands and services furnished them with ample incomes. Their exemption from forced labor, military service, and ordinary taxation left them in an enviable position of prestige and power.
"They deserved not a little of this power, for they accumulated and preserved the learning of Egypt, educated the youth, and disciplined themselves with rigor and zeal."
Are you all in agreement with Durant that the priests "deserved" their power?

Robby

With the office of priest passing down from father to son, it sounds to me like the Divine Right of Priests. Durant describes priests as "the secret police of the social order". Exactly what does he mean by that? Was their power so great?

Certainly, if priests "accumulated and preserved the learning of Egypt" and were responsible for the education of the youth, they deserved some benefits for the job. Did they deserve to live as well or better than kings "through the piety of the people and the generosity of kings"? I don't think so and wonder why religious figures throughout history have been placed on such high and profitable pedestals side by side with others who starved while they provided for them.

Mal

Were the early Egyptians really philosophically inclined or was it the Greeks who credited them with great wisdom and knowledge? Is it probable that early Greeks visiting Egypt were deeply impressed with the massive buildings, the complex religion, the vast, well ordered society? Was their mathematic skill more than engineering and building? Their knowledge of anatomy came from the practice of mummification, but their knowledge of medicine was not that great. They had a civil calendar of 365 days with no corrections. Was the success of their culture dependent on their physical isolation?

Durant says, "The glory of Egyptian science was medicine." (Page 182 and following pages.)

No, I don't think priests 'deserve' power and wealth. Nobody deserves that. Priests in ancient Egypt just made sure that they were well endoyed in exchange with what they were offering the masses by satisfying their need for gods while collecting alms for the king and for themselves. Those priests were humans too and just as faulty as those of today if we look at the Vatican, the massive Cathedrals, Abbys and the elegantly dressed bishops and cardinals in church ceremonies now. Gold in profusion in artistic ornaments.

In Egypt the multiplicity of gods had become unviable and the gradual worship of one diety inevitable if faith was to survive. Human beings need to worhsip the creator of the universe in any nation at any time in history barring a very small proportion of people on earth who deny the existence of God.

"Religious revolution destroyed the Empire of Egypt." I'd say it was a little more than that which destroyed the Empire of Egypt.

Ikhnaton, son of Amnhotep III, believed there was only one god. He saw "divinity above all in the sun, in the source of all earthly life and light."

He hated the great wealth and "lavish ritual" of the temples, sacrifices of animals, the money made by priests who sold magic and charms, the temple prostitutes, and the "growing mercenary hierarchy on the nation's life".

Durant says it's not possible to know if Ikhnaton's devotion to Aton came from Syria's Adonis. At any rate, Ikhnaton was reponsible for a turn to monotheism 700 years before Isaiah. Aton was symbolized as a compassionate father, "a god of gentleness and peace".

Ikhnaton alienated the powerful priesthood and forbade worships of deities to which the people had been devoted for many, many years.

Because the transition was too fast or not at all, there were few intermediate steps. Durant says that Ikhnaton was a poet of relatively immature mind, who didn't realize the impact of what he was doing.

"His ministers and generals hated him" because he neglected parts of the Empire and would not send troops to protect them from invasion by the Hittites.

In other words, Ikhnaton's monotheistic idealism caused the end of the vast Empire which was Egypt.

Mal

"The dangers of the hereafter were now greatly multiplied, and for every critical situation the priest was able to furnish the dead with an effective charm which would infallibly cure him.
"Besides many charms which enabled the dead to reach the world of the hereafter, there were those which prevented him from losing his mouth, his head, his heart. Others which enabled him to remember his name, to breathe, eat, drink, avoid eating his own foulness, to prevent his drinking water from turning into flame, to turn darkness into light, to ward off all serpents and other hostile monsters, and many others.

"Thus the earliest moral development which we can trace in the ancient East was suddenly arrested, or at least checked, by the detestable devices of a corrupt priesthood eager for gain."

How easy it was to destroy an entire Empire!!

Robby

Please read the four quotes above in GREEN.

Can someone with a poet's nature, either in Ancient Egypt or in our own civilization, meet the qualifications of a great leader?

Robby

Regarding the ability of a "poet" to be a great leader, please click HERE. This article also comments on the differences between civilizations.

Robby

I hope someone else besides me watched the program about pyramids on the History Channel tonight. To my surprise, it started with the Luxor Hotel in Las Vegas, which, as you know is built in the shape of a pyramid.

It went on to the I. M. Pei pyramid in front of the Louvre to the Transamerica Building in San Francisco. From there it went to the pyramids in Egypt with wonderful photography and discussion of when, how and why they were built.

The end of the program was about ancient pyramids in Peru and newer ones in Central America. Throughout this study of Our Oriental Heritage, the thought of those never came to my mind.

If you didn't see this program, you really missed something.

Mal

I didnt see the one tonight but have seen a similiar one and many others on Discovery,History, and National Geographic specials. I am always thinking of the South American temples especially since I realized and saw pictures of Eygpt pyramids were exactly the same, stepstones only in Eygpt they then filled in the "steps" with mud and plastered the whole outside white. Imagine seeing the three in Giza when they were all pristine stucco white!! It must have been amazing. fr

Ikhnatun focused on Atun the sun god so intensely that he ignored affairs of state as well as alienating the priesthood. Enemy military incursions occurring on all sides of Egypt were ignored during this period. While Aton and the city of the horizon disappeared after Ikhnatun died(He may have been assasinated by the priests and the military),it was not until Ramses ll that Egypt recovered its power in the region.I nominate Ramses ll for the title of "Great Leader".

I planned to Watch it but failed. We suffered a hail storm tonight which took away our power for a couple of hours during the show. There will be a replay, I am sure.

I read a novel about Neffertiti a few years ago in which her husband Ikhnaton after sireing six daughters turned her over to a trusted aid who also produced a girl. Ikhnaton gave up on her as a source for an heir.However, during her reign she was able to take over some of the reins of government by default. Ikhnaton in turn appointed a boy with whom he enjoyed sleeping to be co-regent. The co-regency was broken up by the priesthood which managed to remove the boy from life. Authors have license to make whatever they want of this period because there is so little known. Writers seem to just fill in the missing details to suit the needs of the story. Unfortunately, the practice leaves amateur historians such as us a little confused on occasion.The movies do the same thing to us. It's sometimes hard to tell where Hollywood leaves off and life begins and vice versa.

This could be a real stretch for Religion but has anyone considered what the probability of three civilizations establishing themselves with what could be called pyramid culture in three very different parts of the world at approximately the same times?

Jere

Jere, who knows, perhaps von Daniken has the answer to your question.

I think that philosophy becomes entwined with religion when contact is made with the Greeks. There seems little philosophy in the Mayans or Aztecs, though I suppose Confucian philosophy did effect the Far East. Christianity becomes philosophical as a result of Paul's letters to the Greek churches, and the philosophy continues through Augustine, Aquinas etc.

As for Mal's post #418 and Eloise's #421, I suggest that whenever religion becomes preoccupied with wealth someone comes along to destroy that pre-occupation. Eloise mentions the Vatican, yet through the ages there have been people like Benedict, Bernard, Francis of Assisi, Ignatius Loyala, Therese of Avila etc, who by their lives have acted as a counterbalance. The latest example would be Mother Theresa.

Maybe with the passing of time, humans, still like to bestow on their Gods, riches, in the shape of Pyramids, Temples, Cathedrals etc. Perhaps we have not changed much at all

Jere asks:--"Has anyone considered the probability of three civilizations establishing themselves with what could be called pyramid culture in three very different parts of the world at approximately the same times?"

This really does cause one to wonder. One possibility, of course, is that the Egyptians,who were seafaring at times, traveled to North or South America and took their culture with them. In an earlier posting we briefly discussed the "findings" of Egyptian hieroglyphics in Australia. How three civilizations which apparently knew nothing about each other could have cultures that are similar might have a religious cause - a "real stretch" as you say - but there are many things we don't understand.

Robby

"Ikhnaton, the young poet, lived in simplicity and trust. He allowed artists to depict him riding in a chariot through the streets, engaged in plesantries with his wife and children. On ceremonial occasions the Queen sat beside him and held his hand, while their daughters frolicked at the foot of the throne. It was a tender interlude in Egypt's epic of power.
"Into this simple happiness came alarming messages from Syria. The dependencies of Egypt in the Near East were being invaded. Governors appointed by Egypt pleaded for immediate reinforcements. Ikhnaton hesitated. He was not quite sure that the right of conquest warranted him in keeping these states in subjection to Egypt.

"When the dependencies saw that they were dealing with a saint, they deposed their Egyptian governors, quietly stopped all payment of tribute and became to all effects free. Almost in a moment Egypt ceased to be a vast Empire and shrank back into a little state. Every colony was in revolt and every power in Egypt was arrayed agaianst him, waiting for his fall. He was hardly thirty when, in 1362 B.B. he died, broken with the realization of his failure as a ruler, and the unworthiness of his race."

In an earlier posting I asked if Leo Durocher, manager of the Brooklyn Dodgers, was correct in saying that "nice guys finish last." Now I ask this again. Does the survival of a civilization rely on raw power? Without getting into the names of current political figures (we have been very good about this!), is there a lesson here for current civilizations? Or does "right" eventually win over "might?"

Robby

Does “right” can win over “might”? Did it ever?

When we look at America today, they are benevolent and kind towards their neighbors and generous to less fortunate than they, while still making sure that their military is more advanced than any other nation on earth in order to stay the most powerful country in the world.

The American President does not have all the power, the government (the people) does. That is what makes American Democracy unique and the people feel that they have a voice in how their government governs. It has several advantages that were there to start with, being isolated between two minor countries north and south and two big oceans east and west. This major advantage plus a democracy that the early immigrants yearned for and a policy of one official language continues to favor them.

Egypt did not have any of this. They were at the mercy of warring neighbors and corruption from within.

Geographical location of a country is very important when one country invades another. If we look at the geography of Europe with several countries all squeezed together like sardines, it is a miracle that no major conflict has erupted there since WW11. Perhaps the threat of the American stick scares them out of it, who knows.

Durant says on page 211:

Had Ikhnaton been a mature mind he would have realized that the change which he had proposed from a superstitious polytheism deeply rooted in the needs and habits of the people to a naturalistic monotheism that subjected imagination to intelligence, was too profound to be effected in little time; he would have made haste slowly, and softened the transition with intermediate steps.

The clue here is "Had Ikhnaton been a mature mind". If he had been a mature mind, he would have known that the interests and defense of all of Egypt were foremost if the Egyptian Empire were to stay alive, and he would have acted differently from the way he did.

Durocher's "Nice guys finish last" is too much of a generality to suit me. As I said before, nice guys who are tough don't finish last. Nice guys who are tough and mature don't lose empires, either.

I was trying to think of the head of a country who was a poet. The closest I could come was Paderewski who at one time was president of Poland. Paderewski was a pianist and composer, and that didn't necessarily make him a poet, though most real musicians I know have something of the poet in them.

This is another generality, too. Not all poets run around with their heads in the clouds without an eye for practicality and reality. There is a very fine poet I publish in the m.e.stubbs poetry journal and Sonata who is the head of a very successful corporation which is known and respected worldwide.

Mal

Jan Paderewski was prime minister of Poland, not president.

Mal

Eloise, I take exception to your remark that the US is between two minor countries. Having been in Canada, in every province including Quebec, numerous times, I would not ever say that Canada is a minor country. Having said this, you did make your point.

Jere

MAL - how about Vaclav Havel of Czechoslavakia?

Durant brings us to the "Decline and Fall" of Ancient Egypt:--

"Two years after his death his son-in-law, Tutenkhamon, a favorite of the priests, ascended the throne. He returned the captal to Thebes, made his peace with the powers of the Church, and announced to a rejoicing people the restoration of the ancient gods. The words Aton and Ikhnaton were effaced from all the monuments, the priests forbade the name of the heretic king to pass any man's lips, and the people referred to him as "The Great Criminal." The names that Ikhnaton had removed were recarved upon the monuments, and the feast-days that he had abolished were renewed.

"Everything was as before."

Anyone here remember George Orwell's "1984?"

Robby

Don't read more into the zigurats and pyramids in different civilizations than can be justified. The design is simplistic.In the form of four stones,it was used by Native Americans to signify a variety of things. The four stones are used by campers today as markers. The pyramid design with an eye at the top appears on American money to signify some concept of which I am unaware.I.M.Pei used the design for the entrance to the Louvre. The Lever building (I think that is what it is called) in San Francisco is clearly a pyramid. During the War they were used as obstacles to prevent invading forces from landing on beaches. It is a simple design easily arrived at and clearly useful.

Thank you, Justin, for bringing us down to earth. It is so easy to let our fantasies turn into "facts" without locating justification for these so-called facts.

Robby

"The romantic Rameses II, last of the great Pharaohs, mounted the throne. Seldom has history known so picturesque a monarch. Handsome and brave, he added to his charms by his boyish consciousness of them. His exploits in war, which he never tired of recording, were equaled only by his achievements in love.
"After brushing aside a brother who had inopportune rights to the throne, he sent an expedition to Nubia to tap the gold mines there and replenish the treasury of Egypt. With the resultant funds he undertook the reconquest of the Asiatic provinces, which had again rebelled.
"Three years he gave to recovering Palestine. Then he pushed on, met a great army of the Asiatic allies at Kadesh (1288 B.C.) and turned defeat into victory by his courage and leadership. It may have been as a result of these campaigns that a considerable number of Jews were brought into Egypt, as slaves or as immigrants. Rameses II is believed by some to have been the Pharaoh of the Exodus.

"When he died he left one hundred sons and fifty daughters to testify to his quality by their number and their proportion. He married several of his daughters, so that they too might have splendid children. His offspring were so numerous that they constituted for four hundred years a special class in Egypt from which, for over a century, her rulers were chosen."

Forgetting Leo Durocher for the moment, can it still be true that raw power (whether in war or love)is what strengthens civilizations?

Robby

Click HERE for another perspective of Rameses II.

Robby

Jere - When I say that Canada is a minor country, I meant that we have next to no military might, only 28 million people thinly spread over 3 thousand miles.

On the other side of the coin, we are a mighty source of natural resources just ready to be purchased, not the least of which is WATER and a huge land mass. We speak English and consider Americans our friends because without them, we would be like a baby without a mother. With our cultural squabble and our weak economy, we are like a ripe fruit just about ready to fall. To prove it, our dollar will only buy half of what the American dollar buys.

With all its faults, Canada is a nice country and I wish we could stay like this for a long time.

Re Justin's question in post #441 concerning the pyramid with the eye on top on the US currency. I have always understood that that is a Masonic symbol. Many of the founding fathers were Masons, and a lot of that symbolism is found in various places in the US. Z

Good point Eloise, and I would not have it change either if I could. Furthermore, I like Quebec better than France in many ways. Enjoy the Holidays and Canada.

Justin, Robby said it better but you made a very good point. Thanks for the thought.

Jere

"According to the Frequently asked questions on the U.S. Treasury site, the eye and the pyramid are part of the Great Seal of the United States. 'The unfinished pyramid means that the United States will always grow, improve, and build. In addition, the All-Seeing Eye located above the pyramid suggests the importance of divine guidance in favor of the American cause.' "

Forgive me, but when I read of the number of wives Rameses II had plus the fact that he sired 150 children, all I could think was that he was afflicted with an overabundance of testosterone and certain super-active neuro-transmitters which appear to go along with hyper sexual tendencies and aggression in males.

I would hate to think civilization is dependent on hormones and such things. I frankly don't think love, though it is a powerful emotion, had much of anything to do with Rameses' successful exploits in war and siring children.

Mal

Talk about raw power. WoW. 150 children. This guy was really hot and he thought the seed was so good he should share it with his daughters.I wonder where he found time to play war games. No viagra for him. Thanks to one and all for their contributions to the pyramid and the seeing eye on the dollar. Funny I never realized the pyramid was unfinished. That's a great symbol. There is a story about some churches in Arizona that employ an unfinished look to achieve an end. It is said that one of the towers remained unfinished to avoid paying taxes. The reference must be to Mexico because we don't tax churches( although I have often thought we should).

I like Quebec too. It is the Paris of the Americas for me. I visit as often as possible.

Thank you Justin. Feel free to visit the Quebec discussion in Geographic Communities and talk about your part of the world.

Rameses II was a powerful man in various ways and lived to be ninety years old but then we come to that other kind of power which is so familiar to us here as we remember our discussions about Primitive Man and Sumeria.

"Only one human power in Egypt had excelled that of Rameses II, and that was the clergy. Here, as everywhere in history, ran the endless struggle between church and state. Throughout his reign and those of his immediate successors, the spoils of every war, and the lion's share of taxes from the conquered provinces went to the temples and the priests. These reached the zenith of their wealth under Rameses III.

"They possessed at that time 107,000 slaves -- one-thirtieth of the population of Egypt. They held 750,000 acres - one-seventh of the arable land. They owned 100,000 head of cattle. They received the revenues from 169 towns in Egypt and Syria. All this property was exempt from taxation.

"The generous or timorous Rameses III showered unparalled gifts upon the priests of Amon, including 32,000 kilograms of gold and a million kilograms of silver. Every year he gave them 185,000 sacks of corn. When the time cam to pay the workmen employed by the state, he found his treasury empty. More and more the people starved in order that the gods might eat."

Comments, anyone?

Robby

PLEASE NOTE THE FOLLOWING
My experience as a Discussion Leader has shown me that over the holidays there are basically two types of Senior Net participants -- those who begin preparing days before the actual holiday season and often are busy a couple of days after the holidays -- and those who have quiet times during the holidays. Those who have quiet times during the holiday season (Christmas plus New Years) continue to be as active on Senior Net as always. Those who are away from the computer for a few days and then come back find that much has transpired while they were gone. My experience has also shown me that if, as a Discussion Leader, I sort of "let things go" during these periods, those who have "quiet" holidays become a bit annoyed because their interest has not flagged.
I have decided, therefore, that I will continue moving this discussion along as usual and recommend that those who are busy baking, wrapping gifts, contacting friends and relatives, etc. log in to "Story of Civilization" at least once each day. In this way, everyone will know what is happening even if the posting is less.
Of equal importance is the fact that we are about to end the discussion about Ancient Egypt and move on to Babylonia. To wait until after the First of the Year which is almost two weeks from now to start with new sub-topic would, in my experience, "kill" the strong interest that so many of you have.
I am acutely aware that being the active type of people that we Senior Netters are, there are other things in our lives. Please bear with me, therefore, as we continue to move along in this forum which has turned out to be one of the hottest Books & Literature discussion groups on Senior Net.
Robby

Robby - Yes teacher. Will do that. It only takes a few minutes to catch up on posts even if we are busy. Learning never ends even at Christmas.

Thank you for giving us so much to think about and add to the store of history that we have all acquired throughout the years.

A TOUS, JOYEUX NOEL AVEC VOS PARENTS ET AMIS.

Love, Eloïse

I don't mean to sound picky, but please, Eloise, I am not a teacher. This is not a class. We, together, are learning from Durant and from each other's postings. As I continue to participate here, I realize I am not qualified to teach about Civilization. But I am willing to be a facilitator in a discussion group.

Robby

OK Robby I apologize and I will consider you a friend then.

Good morning, everyone. It's a beautiful day in my part of North Carolina. Rain, snow or shine, I hope it's a lovely day where you are.

Thank you so much, Robby, for keeping this discussion active during this holiday time. There are some of us who are not up to our ears in baking pies and making other holiday preparations. For us these discussions are a blessing which keeps memories of Christmases past when we had much family around and were busily getting ready for the holiday from pulling us down. Advancing age can only be a burden when one lives in the past and doesn't take advantage of the great life and vitality which all of us have, if only mainly in our minds.

While reading about the decline of the Egyptian Empire, I could only think how necessary it is to keep a separation between church and state. Durant says, "The most vital forces of Egypt were sucked dry by the thirst of the gods at the very time when foreign invaders were preparing to sweep down upon all this concentrated wealth." He calls the Egyptian Empire during the rule of Ramessid, the High Priest of Amon, "a stagnant theocracy, in which architecture and superstition flourished." I imagine the architecture was that of temples and other buildings the powerful priests demanded.

What happened to Egypt should have been, and should always be, a warning to future civilizations to guard against ever allowing such things to happen. Ordinary people should not starve "in order that the gods might eat".

The founding fathers of the United States were very careful that this should not happen here, but occasionally there is a trend among leaders to emphasize "the needs of the gods" and religious factions. I find this very frightening and a threat to civilization as we have come to know it today.

Mal

Yes, if state and religion could be kept separated it would simplify much everywhere. Bubble

Hi Robby and all, I check in at least once a day, but so far, I do not have much to say at this time. However, I am taking in what you all have to say. Mary

Nice to have you checking in with us at least once a day, Mary (Cupcak). Please stay with us.

Robby

"It was only a matter of time before the kings would become the servants of the priests. In the reign of the last Ramessid king, the high Priest of Amon usurped the throne and ruled as openly supreme.
"The Empire became a stagnant theocracy in which architecture and superstition fourished, and every other element in the national life decayed.

"In 954 B.C. the Libyans came in from the western hills, and laid about them with fury.
"In 722 B.B. the Ethiopians entered from the south, and avenged their ancient slavery.
"In 674 the Assyrians swept down from the north and subjected priest-ridden Egypt to tribute.
"In 525 B.C. the Persians under Cambyses crossed Suez, and again put an end to Egyptian independence.
"In 332 B.C. Alexander sallied out of Asia, and made Egypt a province of Madedon.
"In 48 B.C. Caesar arrived to capture Egypt's new capital, Alexandria, and to give to Cleopatra the son and heir whom they vainly hoped to crown as the unifying monarch of the greatest empires of antiquity.
"In 30 B.C. Egypt became a province of Rome, and disappeared from history."

In the twinkling of an eye (from the perspective of Mankind), the great Empire of Egypt was GONE.

Anything that those of us in the 21st Century can learn from this?

Robby

Robby - Although we have been reading and discussing ancient Egypt, it might be interesting to note that in that culture (as in much of the Middle East) it is historically one of the highest compliments one can give to refer to someone as a "teacher" (small t). Not necessarily a classroom teacher, but a person who has experienced life, is willing to patiently guide others in discussions, offer intelligent comments about an issue and give others the opportunity to share his/her knowledge. It is silently acknowledged that the teacher learns right alongside others. As is found in life, learning and its counterpart, teaching, are often done outside a formal classroom environment.

Mahlia:--

As I said to Eloise, I was being "picky."

What are your reactions to the Death of Ancient Egptian Empires?

Robby

Yes, Robby, I understand that YOU were being picky, but I thought it would be an interesting note to the readers to learn that the use of the word teacher in Egyptian culture does not always refer to the clarroom instrutor.

My response is that as the last comment among the GREENS (above) indicates, the spirit of Ancient Egypt lives on, although many (but not all) of the visible signs of the Kingdom have long since vanished. The pyramids are a reminder as are the continued archaeological discoveries throughout the country. Egyptians have great cultural dignity (even among the poorest fellaheen) and are aware of their distinctive history. That recollection comes to the forefront in many unexpected ways, even during general conversation.

I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion and sharing the many thoughts of the posters. I also look forward to passing along the historical "bridge" from ancient Egypt to Babylon, another distinctive region and one which surely will send forth its treasures through Durant's "voice."

Durant said:

"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning."

We would not be doing justice to that wonderful civilization of Ancient Egypt and to our own forum here without pausing a bit -- before following Durant into Babylonia -- to ask ourselves what we have learned - if anything.

Now is the time for all you Lurkers to share your thoughts before we move onto examining another civilization. As we neared the end of Ancient Egypt, I found that numerous thoughts were running through my mind and I was asking myself questions. Such questions as --

How powerful is religion in shaping Mankind? Is there any greater power?
What is the role of wars? Is there any good that comes of war?
In what way are we different from the people of 5,000 - 10,000 years ago? If at all?

What think you?

Robby

regarding the rapid end of the Egyptian civilization -Here to day gone tomorrow - Nothing lasts forever---comes to mind

Regarding whether we are here learning daily or off gaining calories and visiting family and friends -- We do what we must do.

Sorry no pithy thoughts

Jere

Mahlia - A woman after my own heart, exactly what I meant.

Eloise, I had a chance to hear a small portion of CBC on TV the other night. It was the news and was given in such a calm voice of reason it brought tears to my eyes. They were saying something about there were "grievances" the terrorists have and when all is over, the United States will probably adjust their attitudes and doings to resolve some of these grievances.

I am not saying this well enough, but I was wishing I lived in Canada at that moment. They seemed to have a much better vision of what is going on than we do and addressed it in a state of calm reason. Linda

I have never been a flag-waver; never had to be. Nor am I a super nationalist with my eyes closed to other countries. However, this is my country. I'm grateful daily that I was born here in the "Land of the Free", a land which holds my loyalty whether I agree with everything it does or not.

The United States was badly wounded on September 11, 2001. After the initial shock here and among other nations around the world, there has come a deep probing among us Americans of what we did wrong which I feel sure will bring about positive changes.

There also has come a certain amount of America-bashing by other countries which is wearing on me. We may be the richest, most powerful country in the world, but we're not blind, and we're not dumb, nor are all of us militant nationalists who always think our way is right.

It's easy to be rational and objective when you sit outside a country, view it from afar and know it only slightly as a tourist or resident for a month or two. The people I listen to are the ones from other countries who have lived here longer, who have seen the things we do and breathed our culture and air for the bare minimum of a year.

I would never criticize or judge another country unless I had been there at least a year, had been immersed in its culture and language and really had the chance to try to understand exactly what it and its people all about.

Okay, we're on the Eve of Christmas, not the Eve of the Fourth of July, so I'll get off my soapbox now.

Mal

Separation of Church and state is the most important lesson. In a country such as the U.S. vigilence is important in insuring that separation. Why do I say that? Religion is often insidious. Members of religious groups, who ordinarily would never hesitate to criticize a politician, fail to criticize their clergy and worse treat the message of the clergy as infallible truth and vote accordingly. These are often the people who buy indulgences of one kind or another and contribute by tighing ten percent of their income to the clergy.So the clergy gains at the expense of the state ( and of course they pay no taxes, just as it was in Egypt). The issue is worse than we are aware for it is considered impolite to discus religion in society. Can't offend anyone less they think one is bigoted. Conversations on this topic are always strained. So they are avoided. Again the state loses. No question about it the clergy are powerful and the politicians who give lip service contribute to the power of the clergy. In the end it is the clergy that gains and the people who lose. This is the most important lesson to be learned from the study of Egypt.

ROBBY - my response to your question in #461: be wary of "Twinkling Eyes."

JUSTIN - to which society are you referring? Sounds like you could be describing sectors of contemporary America. Some of our well known religious figures indeed try to control politicians through manipulation of the voters of similar religious backgrounds. Many of their efforts - at least those that come to light in the media - are less than what one would expect from the religious leadership and occasionally are extreme. While religious leaders abroad - especially in the Middle East - are much more inclined to be "rabble rousers" and often work directly with large groups of adherents, often bypassing the politicians.

MAL - what did I miss? To what does your #469 refer?

I agree with Justins premise that theocracy is the danger. I think the one most important thing that was done in founding this country was keeping Church and State seperate. It should always remain that way. When I think of the time when Eygpt disappeared from "history" I also think of the more than 3000 years of it's rise to glorious hights and then it's decline which took much longer than our Government has been in existance. And that within Eygpt itself it was always there carrying on, changing, not famous anymore, and is still there so though it "disappeared from History" it did not go anywhere. Just changed and continued on to this day as a Country. It is kind of wonderful in my mind.Faithp

Mahlia: yes, I am thinking of contemporary U.S. However, the danger of theocracy is perhaps more immediate in the Middle East, particularly in Iran, where a fundementalist sect took over the government. The theocracy there, as I understand it ,was achieved with more brute force than I see in the U.S. I wanted to point out that in spite of the message of the U.S. founding fathers, the invasiveness of the clerics is persistent and subtle and that one can be easily led by those who purport to speak for a god. It was of course the Egyptian Theocracy and its consumption of the Egyptian politic that brings recognition of the danger in the U.S. Great damage can be done, a little at a time, until the work of the founding fathers is overcome. Faith tells us that Egypt continues to exist. Is there anything left of the Egypt that was?

Mahlia,

Having lived in the U.K. for over half of my life, I agree with the seperation of Church and State. As to the suggestion that religious leaders use their positions to manipulate politicians, surely the reverse of that is also true. How often does the media show pictures of political leaders, Bible in hand, attending church services. Often at the same time there is speculation on other aspects of their life. This was very much in evidence during the former Presidency of the U.S.

I do not see a problem in religious leaders speaking out against political leaders. It may seem to be wrong in a democratic society, but we are happy to see it in a totalitarian one. It certainly helped to bring about the downfall of Communism.

As to the "spirit of Ancient Egypt surviving". That statement could be true of all civilisations that have peaked and then declined.

In conclusion, may I wish all, a Happy and Peaceful Christmas season.

Any thoughts on the role of wars? -- Any good coming of war?
Robby

Robby asks if there is any good coming of war. I see war as a means to cause death and destruction. Huge amounts of money are spent on wars which I personally think could be put to better use. Then more money is spent to rebuild and rehabilitate the countries which have been devastated by war. It doesn't make sense to me when countries and their people are in need all over the world before the costly wars began.

To put it in a very small way: When there is conflict between two people and argument ensues, is that conflict solved when one person punches the other in the nose and beats him up? I don't think so. The grievance still remains. No issues have been resolved.

What is so revolutionary about the idea that people talk out the issues between them and come to certain kinds of compromise that would satisfy both sides? A kind of bending is needed on each side to resolve the problems, but if that is the way to avoid mass slaughter, ruination of buildings and other horrendous effects of war, something positive has been accomplished by giving a little. There's no real loss of face in compromise.

War is primitive. Things done in anger almost always have no kind of reason behind them. Regardless what anyone says to me about wars' stimulating the arts and instigating change, there has to be a better way than fighting wars. This is something I firmly believe, and there's nothing that will sway my opinion.

Mal

As some of you know, I was a Discussion Leader for the book, "The Good War," written by Studs Turkel. Studs stated on more than one occasion that he was not calling World War II a "good" war but that he titled the book such because so many people described the war in that fashion.

Robby

At the end of the section about Egypt, Durant says, " 'It is even possible,' as Faure has said, 'that Egypt, through the solidarity, the unity, and the disciplined variety of its artistic products, through the enormous duration and the sustained power of its effort, offers the spectacle of the greatest civilization that has yet appeared on earth.' We shall do well to equal it..

Do you agree with this statement? If so, why?

Mal

There is an old saying I heard in New England when I was growing up that goes like this:

A man convinced against his will remains a firm believer still.
Mal

Mal - I agree wholeheartedly with you post about war. Well said!

Spending the money on fighting world famine rather than each other would be more productive. And set up a board to where people can go and discuss grievances and talk them out. Put the world's greatest pacifists on the board - the Dalai Lama, Nelson Mandela, Nobel Peace Prize winners, Jimmy Carter, Chief Avrol and other tribal leaders.

Linda

Without armed forces a state does not exist. The new Kingdom saw the emergence of a military class and more career military men. The early Egyptian empire (as in all empires) depended on the armed forces for its growth and maintenance. The young princes were educated by the military. Skilled officers and solders were given lands that could only be held in the family if a son followed the father in a military career.

Any good come from war? I remember too well what the depression was, especially 1937. What would this country be today if WWII had not happened? But then again, I know what war does to people. I have come to the conclusion that war is to be human, regardless of good or evil. War and religion seem to be a human manifestation. I know of few other forms of life that are so obsessed with mass conflict, -or religion. Maybe ants?

As we look not only at war, but at religion, commerce, medicine, sex, family relationships, etc. -- are we basically that much different from the people of 5,000 - 10,000 years ago?
Robby

IMHO Human beings are different only in superficial ways. The brain, its chemicals and its chemical messages are exactly the same. Our emotional responses are probably the same with of course additions to the list of things that we must pay attention too. But those are outward things like speeding cars instead of hungry lions. We are not as afraid of Ghosts now that we have lights night and day to chase them away but we may be terrified of the electric bill and how to pay it. This is a wonderful question. I could talk for hours about this. I promise I wont.However the imperitive "Survive" is the same today as 40,000 years ago or 100,000 years ago. Faith

Mal

You said it better than I could on my feelings of War. However, our leader, Robby, selected this question so near to Christmas for some reason so here are some things good about war.

Population reduction - gives the opportunity to rebuild a country - changes attitudes on many things to mention a few.

Jere

Jere:

I can't read his mind, but I don't think the advent of Christmas had anything to do with Robby's asking the question, "Any good coming of war?" Rather, I suggest that the question sprang from thoughts of Ancient Egypt and comparisons with civilizations today.

There are other ways to achieve population reduction, attitude changes, rebuilding of countries and many other things, including survival, besides fighting wars. The trouble is that we humans cling to a mindset which is not dissimilar from that of thousands and thousands of years ago, and we won't accept alternative methods of solving problems which lead to war.

Mal

You're correct, Mal. Our completion of the examination of Ancient Egypt just happened to come toward the end of the year. I was hoping that we wouldn't have spent all that time reading in detail about Primitive Man, Sumeria, and Ancient Egypt without pausing to decide whether we "homo sapiens" had changed or not over the eons.

Robby

Same mold... I doubt we will ever change even if we succeed in reaching to the stars. Unless with biogenetics they can tinker with our detructive urges? Bubble

Robby says:"......As we look not only at war, but at religion, commerce, medicine, sex, family relationships, etc.--are we basically that much different..?

What has changed, let's say over the last fifty years. You ladies will say great progress has been made. Now you have the opportunity to make it on your own, you can kick your husband out. Who needs him, besides it has the added benefit to fool around a bit without the feeling of guilt. We have a divorce rate of about what, 3 in 5? Don't want the baby, abort it, it's legal.

If a guy prefers another guy, so what, get married, it's legal, in Canada anyway. Anal intercourse is now considered normal, besides it helps to solve the population explosion.:>)

- On the more serious side:---True human progress, that which can be linked to evolution, and which prolongs it, can only consist in perfecting and ameliorating (to make more acceptable or bring nearer to some standard) man himself and not in improving the tools he employs, nor in increasing his physical well-being. Well, then......are we basically that much different ?

PS. man... read mankind ( male,female).

Hubert - This lady says that we are becoming more free to choose, something that men always were free to do. But as for having better marriages because of that, I would say no. We are more free, but with freedom came the loneliness of raising aimless children of broken marriages learning to be free to make even worse mistakes than their parents ever did. Christ placed men and women on an equal basis in marriage, respecting each other while being faithful. It is not always unfaithfulness that breaks up a marriage. But pride. Why blame others for our own failures. We have lost our moral base with too much freedom and we are putting ourselves on top of the heap pretending to be so smart and choosing alone what is good and what is bad.

CHANGE - what does it mean? change to become what another person decides is better? Who is right? Everybody, because we all think we are right. Right?

If there was one superior human being ruling the earth, he would decide everything for everybody, but he would still have his genetic and psychological flaws. Still he could never be perfect enough to lead imperfect human beings to all get along in harmony.

The only thing we can change is ourselves. Choose the right path and follow it unless it became evident that it is faulty. If it is, then alter the course and rectify the parameters. For this we all need wisdom. It is better than knowledge according to one Egyptian king we recently studied.

Basically the nature of man has not changed. Greed, lust for power, lack of compassion is alive and well today. War in my opinion is mostly caused by a lust for power. We have not changed at all in the most basic sense.

It is Christmas Eve here in New Zealand I wish everyone partaking in this discussion a wonderful time with family and friends over the holiday period and may we at this time pause to think of others who are less fortunate than ourselves. If we know someone who is lonely may we offer them hospitality. To me the above is what Christmas is all about.

Carolyn

How about male-female relationships? -- some of which was alluded to in the previous postings. What kind of man-woman relationships did you see in Ancient Egypt? Any changes in later centuries? For the better or not?
Robby

I had been thinking we could never get inside the mind of an Egyptian because I had the idea we were totally different in our mindset. To believe that Gods ran our daily lives, and we could influence them with gifts, seemed so alien to me. Then I suddenly thought "Please God, let him get better and I'll be a better person". I realized suddenly, that we are those same People.

I think we're reaching a vital place though where we have to make a radical decision about the world. There isn't the luxury of continual wars and behaviors as in the post. Once a whole people could decide to move or invade , or whatever their leaders thought would advance their Civilization, but now there is nowhere to go.Soon we will all have to decide to change our ways for the survival of our planet. That's something no other Civilization has had to do. Jan

War is an evil activity. Is there an alternative to War? In 1946 we thought that the U.N. would provide a forum to talk out differences. Well, to some extant I think that has worked. Some wars have been prevented by the method. When agression occurred in the world outside the U.N. forum U.N. troops intervened and provided peace keeping force. Unfortunately, "talking things out" , is not always the best solution. If we did that when Saddam invaded Kuwait we would have given in to a "fait Accompli". We would be abandoned to threat of further aggression. We have the same problem today with the attack on WTC. It is not revenge we are seeking in this war it is prevention. Could we possibly negotiate with terrorists. I don"t think so. It's ok to rule out war in the abstract. But when the real thing comes along one must take action or lose one's life. Sure there are some side benefits that accrue from war. But none of these benefits justify war. The only thing that justifies war is the defense of one's life.

Jan; You said something profound. We may think the Egyptian who let the gods rule his life, and who thought he could influence that rule with gifts, a fool. But we are also that fool. Nothing has changed.We have just swapped many gods for one god. Ikhnatun did the same thing and got as much in return as any god gives.

Justin says:--"War is an evil activity. Unfortunately, "talking things out" , is not always the best solution. It is not revenge we are seeking in this war it is prevention. But when the real thing comes along one must take action or lose one's life. Sure there are some side benefits that accrue from war. The only thing that justifies war is the defense of one's life."

If I follow this logic (and I am not implying that I disagree), in the name of prevention or defense, it is all right to participate in an 'evil activity.'

Robby

May all the benefits of the Christmas season come to all of you and may your holidays be joyous. My family of a wife, three daughters, two husbands, seven grandchildren and one great grandchild will bring me all the joy of the season. I wish those of you on the other side of the date line special greetings for I have fond memories of one pre Christmas period in Wellington when the people of that city treated us Americans with love and kindness and I have never forgotten it.

Are those of us who retaliate with sophisticated weapons in the name of "prevention" any less terroristic than those who attacked us? I say no. The people affected by our acts are as terrified as those who somehow managed to survive the attack on the World Trade Center. Did you ever think about that?

How can we know if peaceful retaliation works if we never try it?

Why wasn't it possible for leaders to go and find out exactly what the grievance is that caused an attack on the United States? I feel certain that one major reason is economic. It almost always is in war. It's a heck of a lot easier and much more comfortable to sacrifice money than it is to live in fear of sacrificing your and your families' or somebody else's lives.

Again in a small way: What if someone tries to take part of your property or damages it in some way? Do you run in the house, grab your up-to-date guns and shoot 'em all down? No, you don't, and why? Because there are laws which say if you do this you will be punished in a fairly severe way. Why wouldn't that work with countries? Severe punishment for an attack on another country and severe punishment if that country responds in kind.

We'll never know these things until we try them, will we? We'll never know what the true issue is unless we make an attempt to find out before we kill each other off.

It's pathetic. It's primitive. It's more than just a terrible shame that we don't drop our ancient ideas and wise up to today.

Mal

Robby: I see your point. Yes, I think it is ok to participate in an evil activity in defense of one's family or one's life. To strike one who will strike you may be doing an evil thing but it is the necessary thing. Am I saying evil is necessary some times. Yes I think so. I think one must meet agression with agression. It is the initial agressive behavior that must be stopped. It is not the response that must be stopped.

Here's one woman who thinks the small progress for women in the last 100 years is no indication of the evolution of the human race. I also do not think freedom of choice brings the breakdown of families. If it is, you men are responsible. After all, you have had freedom of choice for eons, haven't you?

The kind of evolution of the human race that I'd like to see is an evolution in thinking. I see here today among some people the same kind of thinking that existed thousands and thousands of years before the Ancient Egyptian Empire ever came into being.

Why, oh, why is so hard to turn our heads around and begin thinking in a different way?

Mal

Justin says:--"I think it is ok to participate in an evil activity in defense of one's family or one's life. Am I saying evil is necessary some times. Yes I think so. I think one must meet agression with agression."

Therefore, by definition, at times "evil" is "good."

Robby

No! Evil can never be good. In post #497 I commented on Robby's post #500 before he even posted it. All I can think is that I must be invisible here.

Mal

No, Mal, you are never invisible. There is just more than one side to a discussion.

Considering all the wars that we have been reading about - by Primitive Man, by the Sumerians, and by each and every Dynasty in Ancient Egypt - should we describe them all as evil?

Robby

A little while ago I was working on a Sonata web page for a story by Elisha Porat, an Israeli author and poet who won the Prize for Literature in Israel in 1996. In the story, which is based on fact, there is mention of a young man who was killed at Great Bitter Lake during the Yom Kippur war.

I did a search for a picture of Great Bitter Lake to use as the illustration of Mr. Porat's story, and in the process came across the interesting information that 4000 years ago the Egyptians built a canal which linked the Nile with the Great Bitter Lakes. This canal was filled in for centuries, and trade with the far east was carried on across Asia.

Mal

Mal, I am inclined to agree with you. However, humans have not developed the means to handle violence or war by peaceful means at this time. There are not enough people who will give up their fear, time, or effort to find a peaceful solution. For example: Is it easier to wage war or to wage peace? Many think it would be too time consuming, costly, and take too much energy to wage peace. Look at our domestic situation. It is easier to punish children or spank them than to teach them to do what is right, because in the long run they will benefit as well as the whole of society. It takes great care and love to train a child. So, it will take leaders with highly developed spiritual values. People who are courageous and willing to make great sacrifices. We are not there yet. But don't give up your position. The rest of the world has not caught up with you yet. Mary

Thank you, Mary. What you said brought tears to my eyes.

Mal

Following along with Mary's comments that "the world is not yet there. . ."

To those of us who have focused on international conflict resolution and management, the choice of talking rather than conflict is the core of the issue. But in order to even bring people together to begin discussions means that all sides have to be willing to do so. It sounds simple when writing, but the actual commitment to face each other and discuss centuries old conflicts is NOT easy.

Several years ago I worked with people from Georgie, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Ossetia and Russia in a conflict resolution and management program at an area university. It was without doubt one of the most grueling experiences of my entire professional career. The participants were combative, threatening to each other on a 24/7 basis, yet had agreed to come together to try and establish some type of basis for discussion. The environment was constantly filled with tension and often reminded me of a small battlefield. Yet when the Mediator asked at the end of each day "do you want to continue" all of the participants agreed to do so. Several participants told me quietly, "if we do not continue our discussion, we will kill each other."

I am reminded that in ancient Egypt if everything were calm and well controlled through committed discussions, there would have been less power for the leadership, less riches from wars for the priests, less forced trade affiliation and taxation. It doesn't seem to be too different today as we witness the violence and conflict in Afghanistan; or the earlier atrocities in Iran and Iraq; Eastern Europe, Somalia and Sudan or anywhere else in the world where conflicts have continued.

We are not there yet - that's true. But those of us who are committed to peace still keep walking towards each other, talking to each other, placing suggestions out there on the mediation table and for those of us who pray, praying that our efforts will result in some semblance of peace. In the meantime, to preserve what we hold dear at home, we maintain a strong military and encourage our sons and daughters to step forward and take up the tools of defense - those much more sophisticated than when we strode forward in defense of our country years ago. Discussions for peace must continue, but also military strength must NOT be discontinued until we know that we have arrived and humans world-wide are peaceful. We're just not at that point yet!

Thank you for what you said, Mahlia.

I must add here that I do not think, and have not posted that military forces should be abolished. I do believe sincerely, though, that their use should be an absolutely last and very well thought out resort to be employed
only if all else fails, with the consequences of their use on either side carefully considered.

Mal

Jan said, "Once a whole people could decide to move or invade , or whatever their leaders thought would advance their Civilization, but now there is nowhere to go.Soon we will all have to decide to change our ways for the survival of our planet. That's something no other Civilization has had to do. Jan"

Well said. I would recommend Jane Goodall's Reason For Hope. She began seeing chimpanzees becoming violent and war-like and she became quite alarmed and despondent. Eventually she just says we humans have that in us and to get rid of it we need to be kind - get kindness ingrained in all of us and it will evolve. Sounds strange, but she is a scientist and a religious one at that, so I would say she is probably right.

I read a wonderful, wonderful article earlier this evening that fits right in to your discussion right now. It is from Tikkun Magazine and is by Michael Lerner.

Healing After Terror

I printed my copy out and plan to read and re-read it and buy the magazine at B&N tomorrow and read their "founding statement" of which he speaks.

Please, please take the time to read it slowly and thoughtfully and more than once! I am so glad this fits into the discussion so I can put it here. I was anxious to put it somewhere where it might do the most good! Yay! I found a great spot right here!

Linda

Here is another long one, but full of history and many areas we have been discussing from Durant's research.

http://www.americanradioworks.org/features/resentment/angry1.html

It begins like this so how can we resist?

"In the Arab word, in whose ancient fertility of Mesopotamia and Jericho lies the cradle of civilization, the perceptions of the West, and the United States, in particular, are layered in centuries of history. Today there are the images of ongoing Middle East conflicts on Arab satellite news, and beneath that are decades of conflict."

I will warn you it is another lengthy article, but excellent. It has 4 parts. Please read all four. It is well worth your time.

Thanks! ~ Linda

Thank you for those relevant articles, Linda. I have printed them out and will read them carefully at my leisure.

Robby

As we continue to compare those ancient civilizations with ours and see what we have learned (if anything), a couple of other thoughts come to mind.
Durant said that one of the four elements of Civilization is Economic Provision. Aside from technological progress, do you folks see today's business world differing in any way from the economics of ancient times?
A second element that he brought up was Political Organization. Do you see politics as having existed in ancient times? How was it different, if at all, from current day politics?
Robby

Durant tells us that the life of the peasant was hard in Ancient Egypt. Peasants were subject at any time to do forced labor for the King, "dredging the canals, building roads, tilling the royal lands, or dragging great stones and obelisks for pyramids."

Durant also says that "in general every trade was a caste, and sons were expected to follow and take over the occupations of their fathers." Most trade was done at bazaars, the malls of today.

Payments for work done was made in goods "until the influx of precious metals that followed the conquests of Thutmose III."

Taxes were collected, and credit was highly developed in Ancient Egypt.

There was also a postal service. I wonder if it was any faster than ours is, and I wonder if there were any social programs for the poor?

It doesn't appear to me that things are too much different today. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer. So, what else is new?

Mal

Are we getting to the point here in "Story of Civilization" of saying that there is hardly any difference at all between our Civilization and Civilizations 5,000 years ago? -- Which, after all, is a drop in the bucket compared to the age of our planet.

Robby

It occurred to me to wonder if people like me are not too impatient and precipitous in our wish that human beings would evolve. One of the principal factors in my thinking is the hope that some kind of evolution in thinking and attitudes could take place before we kill each other off. Then I am reminded of things I've read and talked about, which were written thousands of years ago and express the same concern I feel today.

Thousands of years ago perhaps some people had the same fear that their sophisticated weaponry and impetuous use of those weapons would cause the end of the human race. Looking at it from this perspective at least makes me feel a bit less anxious.

Who am I to say what changes will happen in the next five thousand years? Which, as Robby says is "just a drop in the bucket".

Mal

Isn't it a darned shame that understanding comes so late to people? Here we are in older age with knowledge and wisdom we never had before that must be relearned with every generation. The only answer I can see is to do as much talking with as many younger people who will listen and try to convey a little of what we've learned and know.

I think I'll go on the lecture circuit. Why not? After all, I'm only 73!

Mal

And I'm only 81. Plenty of time left for us to learn!

Robby

Mal - Yes mam, we think the world's problems can be fixed if only the young generation would listen to the wisdom of the old. It would be ideal if they acquired it while they are still young.

Our modern American democracy is still in its infancy. Perhaps in a few hundred years, it will have arrived at the level of the glorious days of the Egyptian Empire. I believe it will eventually fall down like all empires do because people have not changed since Adam and Eve. We just live longer and acquire wisdom that the younger generation doesn't seem to value.

Eloise:

The younger people I know value wisdom when they know about it. That's why it's so important that we elders make a genuine effort to talk with them. I have a great deal of hope about the youth of my country and am very proud of the many I know.

I'm not as pessimistic about the future of my country as you seem to be about yours. We here in the States seem to cope with a great many very difficult things, perhaps because there are strong, tough, compassionate people like Rudy Giuliani who grab the reins and lead our team through very rough waters; I don't know.

Mal

A couple of other wonderments for consideration --
1 - Has our art world benefited from the art of Sumeria and Ancient Egypt?
2 - What is the importance of language in the development of civilization?
Robby

Through winter's guantlet we have come, This longest night we seek the sun. The Season's wheel must turn again, if all this darkness is to end. And so we build the fires high to guide the light back to the sky.

And now the Sea Peoples burst onto civilization.

That's beautiful, Ellen!

Robby

The Yule Ritual, designed by Eustacia Blackstar, from which Ellen's wonderful words came can be found by clicking the link below. Did you write this piece, Ellen?

Yule Ritual

I read that Link in detail. It can be very powerful when entered into with the proper spirit. Shows the small difference between those who lived in ancient civilizations and those of us in "modern" civilization.

Robby

I would like to ask just one more question in reference to SofC and then will "retreat" into personal Christmas plans.

Has the knowledge that you may gained in Story of Civilization in any way affected your personal life?

Robby

I think I've learned more about the human race from reading Our Oriental Heritage and this discussion than anything else I've studied about history in my life, and that's no exaggeration.

Robby, please don't retreat! If you do, who will I have to talk to and celebrate with?

Mal

And to think, Mal, that this is only one of eleven volumes. By the time we finish, we won't be able to stand each other!!

Robby

Robby:

You made me laugh so hard!!!

Mal

ROBBY Ref your #524. I think my answer would be ' yes '. None knows what their attitudes would be if they had not had such and such experience. But it is true, I think, that a persons behaviour is conditioned by his/her experiences.

For example, I meet some in life,who are very warlike, and who make loud claims as to their 'Christianity' and how they fashion their lives on their reading of the Bible. Further questioning discloses that their reading is confined largely to the Old Testament, pages which contain very little of Christian beliefs or attitudes. It is clear, I think that their behaviour is conditioned by their reading, and so I suppose is mine. Especially is this so, when the reading is done daily, and at a young age. In my case Buck Rogers' comics have a lot to answer for!-- Trevor

"Tom Swift" was my hero!

Robby

I will make one more post after this one and then while I may lurk for a while, I will not be making any more postings until Christmas Night or the morning after. At that time some of us may be ready to move into Babylonia.

Robby

I REMEMBER

As I look backward to "Christmases past," many memories filter through my mind. I remember Christmas as a young child trying to stay awake to see Santa Claus and that Christmas when I was old enough to receive the gift of gifts -- a full-sized bicycle. I remember the Christmas that I took my new gorgeous girl friend to meet my aunt.

I spent some Christmases as a single man, some as a newly married man, some as a father, and some as a grandfather. Some Christmases were in my hometown and some were thousands of miles away. I remember spending Christmas in warm cozy houses and Christmas in cold muddy foxholes. I can remember one Christmas that was accompanied by constant ear-splitting artillery bursts and one particular Christmas that was so quiet, I could hear the bark of a dog two miles away coming across the snowy landscape through the still night air. Christmases when I was outdoors in short sleeves and Christmases so bundled you couldn't see my face.

I remember Christmases that were deliriously happy and Christmases that, for various reasons, were completely devoid of the "spirit." I can remember receiving scads of Christmas presents and years when I didn't receive a single Christmas present or a single Christmas card. There were Christmases when I was surrounded by numerous family members and Christmases completely alone. Christmases when there was enough money to spread material gifts around and others when the Christmas meal was sparse. I remember one bitterly cold Christmas when, as an impoverished grad student, I was on Food Stamps and the local clergyman brought us a $100 bill donated by a church to which we did not belong. I remember many other Christmases when I spent most of the day serving a Holiday dinner to the less fortunate.

I remember spending New Years Eve in Times Square pressed in by a million bodies. Once as a boy and much later accompanied by my children. I remember New Years Eves in bed being pressed closely by a single body. I also remember spending New Years Eve alone. There was a time when I dedicated most of my New Years moments trying to get girls under the Mistletoe - later times when my priorities had changed. I can remember coming home at 3 a.m. after a New Years Eve party and I can remember other years being in bed and asleep by 9 p.m.

I have had my share of unhappinesses (as have you) but these combined with the happinesses have given me a rich life. As I enter my ninth decade, I can say with complete assurance that at no time in my life have I felt more peace and contentment than now. The Holidays that were filled with giggling, hearty laughter, and jovial conversational outbursts have become less frequent but the serenity is ever more present. I live alone but am not lonely. I have had and continue to have a rich life. Tomorrow I will have Christmas dinner with my daughter. I ask no more.

I Wish the Same Peace and Serenity to All in My Family Here!!

A Blessed Holiday Season to Everyone!!!
Robby

Robby thank you for the wonderful Christmas Memories. Brought me right to attention. Made me start thinking of my life in the way you were thinking of yours. I am just a kid entering my 75th year. I am learning every day and more here in this discussion than I thought possible. (I thought I knew everything heheheh)

As Mal said too, could be we need to talk of our experience with our young people a lot. As to what in particular I am learning from this discussion re: Civilization, that the more we learn of our past the more we can understand of what is happening right now. And that the "types" of people dont change that much so as I know there are wonderful people now even in evil regimens, so too no society was ever all evil down to the last man. Nor probably was any society all perfection either.

Merry Christmas Everyonefaithp

THANK YOU ROBBY FOR SHARING THIS WITH US AND YES WE ARE FAMILY HERE ON STORY OF CIVILIZATION.

TO ALL MY FRIENDS HERE ---- "JOYEUX NOËL" -------

I do believe religion is important in forming various civilizations. I don't know too much about Egyptian religion. It is also difficult for me to say too much about religion without touching on civilizations we haven't come to yet.

As far as the Bible is concerned you cannot have the Hebrew (Old Testament) without the Greek (New Testament). The Hebrew Scriptures contain many of the prophecies including the birth of Jesus Christ.

Talking about war at Christmas time brings back memories I thought I left behind 60 years ago. It was very disappointing to me to find after the close of WWll that we were faced with a Korea, a Cold War,a Viet Namn,a Grenada, a Desert Storm, a Bosnia, and an Afghanistan. We have had a century of War. Why? It may seem strange to some but I think these wars were conducted in the interest of peace. If one slaps down enough aggressors, often enough, they will realize that peaceful negotiated settlements are a better alternative to war. We gave the U.N. police powers to exert the necessary force to achieve that end. The work of the U.N. has not been perfect but it is the only peace mechanism that exists in the world. If we (the members of the U.N.) wish peace then we must be willing to support the U.N. in its efforts to provide a forum and to slap down aggressors. The U.N. could be an effective world police force but it needs the cooperation and whole hearted support of all its members. One can not just talk about achieving peace, one must actively work at it.Some countries have given only lip service and others have failed to pay their dues but it is only by full support that the U.N. can hope to achieve its end. If we truly want peace in the world then we must support the U.N. Merry Christmas to all.

The most memorable Christmas in my life was when I was 7 years old. The uncle in whose house I lived came into my room, wrapped me in a quilt and carried me downstairs. I hadn't been down there since the previous July when both arms, both legs, my neck and most of the rest of me were paralyzed by polio.

When I first became sick, my aunt and uncle took me to their house to live because it was Depression time and my mother was very poor. She had three other kids to take care of and couldn't afford my illness. If we kids each received an orange, a couple of walnuts and a couple pennies for Christmas in those days, we were thrilled.

My uncle carried me into his living room that Christmas in 1935, and I saw the big tree all decorated with tinsel, ornaments and lights and what seemed like millions of presents under it. I couldn't believe my eyes. We couldn't stay very long because my arms, back and neck muscles were very weak, and I had trouble sitting up, and, of course, I couldn't walk.

What I saw in the few minutes my uncle held me by the tree was enough to make me very happy the rest of the day and months after that, as I lay in bed and thought about that Christmas miracle. Later I found out that neighbors and friends and people all around town had sent presents in just for me because I was so sick.

That was 66 years ago. Since then I have spent Christmases with my husband, and first one, then two, then three kids -- and I have spent Christmases alone. There's been Christmas in the North with snow and Christmas in the South where I lived where it was 75 degrees. There have been Christmases when I have been happier than I've ever been and Christmases when I'd never been so sad. There have been rather lavish Christmases with almost too many gifts, and there have been other Christmases like this when I couldn't buy one.

Never before, though, have I spent a Christmas with a family I found in a discussion of Will and Ariel Durant's The Story of Civilization, and I thank every one of you for the gift of you.

From the bottom of my heart I wish a very Merry Christmas
to all of you.

Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to all my seniornet friends.....Nancy

Robby in your post about Christmas you said that you were entering your ninetieth decade. Your ninetieth decade would make you a contemporary of Methuselah. Your nineth decade would make a comtemporary of us.

Have a HAPPY CHRISTMAS and a MERRY NEW YEAR'S EVE.

Jere

Thank you for the heartfelt posts about Christmases past. I can almost feel the warmth of a cozy fire and smell pumpkin pie. You have made this a family here, Robby. Now that goes above and beyond! Thank you for all you do. You are a treasure! And so is Mal with her hard work for all of us to enjoy and read the writing of so many talented artists. Thank you so very much. You are extraordinary people!

And to all of those who have been participating - you have made this a wonderful place to come and learn so very much. Thank you for your thoughts and expertise.

Linda

Nothing I will read will change my life as much as the 12 steps program I attended 5 years ago. I have enjoyed very much the historical aspects of the discussion but it really does not change my thinking about life in any way. However the most enjoyable thing for me is listening to other peoples perspectives on what we have studied.

I have had my Christmas Dinner with my loved ones I am home now and hope all of you have as wonderful and harmonious day as I have had. I am very blessed with wonderful loving children and grandchildren and I came home loaded with thoughtful gifts. I even have a big envelope of money to go to the sales tomorrow. I am so fortunate.

God Bless everyone and Goodnight.

Carolyn

This pause now is very welcomed! It lets me ponder at my own pace and go those links I never had time to read but saved anyway.

This discussion is the most interesting place I have ever been too. Robbie, I hope you have enough patience, free time, and good will to continue it for ever and ever and ever until the lastline of the last Durant book? I'll make that one of my own wishes! Thank you for those little nudges to our grey cells, thank you to those who have added their expertise. My mind is expanding!

Happy celebration! Bubble

My 2 families

My biological family is a big one. First, since I have 6 children, and 10 grand children I am blessed ever so richly. For Christmas Eve, I had my 2 daughters and their family for dinner because they were going to be with their in-laws on Christmas day.

Thank the Lord for my 3 small grand children bringing laughter and just plain exuberance to this day of rejoicing at the birth of Jesus who changed the world for us. The noise level was high, but it was a lovely sound.

Dinner. Candles were lighted, food was overflowing on the table and sideboard, wine was poured, 10 different kinds of dishes went around the table, one of them falling down, Oh! No, not my tourtière. Pause before dessert for Christmas carols in French and English. Afterwards, the opening of presents. More carols, then coffee and kids showing their talents dancing, singing and playing the violin. 11 o’clock everybody went home to bed.

It is Christmas day and I am all alone. How come? Our plans to drive to Ottawa to visit another daughter fell through and here I am with my other family.

The “STORY OF CIVILIZATION” family.

I start with our very own Robby, then Mal, Sea Bubble, Mahlia, Carolyn, Tigerlily, Jere, Faith, Trevor, Ellen, Barbara, Peter, Linda, Louise, Hubert, Justin, Patrick and Tom. I include the lurkers too who visit us and keep silent.

This family is the one I visit every day. I am grateful to all of you for quenching my thirst for knowledge and for caring enough to post intelligently, permanently lighting up dark corners of my mind. With each post we express our deepest sentiments and through that we become closer. So I am not alone on Christmas day since I have you.

Eloïse

Merry Christmas, Eloise! I'm alone, too, until dinner time when I'll go in the main house and have dinner with my daughter, Dorian, and her partner, Jim. She came in my apartment a little while ago with a small box from my New York son, Christopher, addressed to both her and me.

In it was a holiday mug, a tin box decorated like a crêche full of old-fashioned holiday candy, another little box full of ginger cookies and many pictures of Chris, my 2 year old granddaughter, Leah Paris, her mother, Serena, and my family here. These were taken last October 25th when they stopped by on their way to Florida.

This grandmother doesn't look very good in those pictures, I must admit. I'd had a bad fall the week before and wasn't in very good shape, but I most certainly look happy sitting besides my sweet little girl granddaughter.

Imagine! On December 31st, 1995 when I bought the first computer with a modem I ever had, I didn't have Leah Paris in my life and didn't know anything about the internet or the World Wide Web, how to copy and paste, how to send email, or anything else. I bought the computer so I could play Bicycle Bridge.

A little over five years ago I put my very first extremely primitive web page on the web with a story I wrote on it. Now I publish three electronic magazines: Sonata magazine for the arts, which contains writing by writers all over the world, the m.e.stubbs poetry journal, collections of poetry, also by writers all over the world, and The WREX Magazine, writing by the members of the Writers Exchange WREX, a writing group right here on SeniorNet.

It gives me great pleasure to publish these magazines, and that first web page I set up led to the publication of a hard copy book in late 1998, a collection of writing by the members of WREX called Late Harvest IV, all 308 pages of which I edited; did all the pre-publication work and oversaw the printing and distribution of the books to buyers. I also have written numerous stories and have finished 8 out of 11 novels since 1996 on a word processor I didn't know anything about in late 1995.

I'm the right-brained artist type who was always afraid of anything that resembled a "machine". Who says an old dog can't change her attitude and teach herself new tricks? All part of the evolution of me!

Now I am learning more in the Story of Civilization discussion, under the fine leadership of Robby Iadeluca in the company of people who know a heck of a lot more than I do. Imagine that, too!

Well, that's enough Christmas Day rambling. It's a lovely day here six miles south of Chapel Hill, North Carolina, and this woman has work to do!

Have a lovely day, everybody!

Mal

.........A Blessed Holiday Season To All Of You.........

Bert

Merry Christmas Y'all!

The more we get together,
Together, together,
The happier we'll be;
For your friends are my friends
And my friends are your friends,
The more we get together,
The happier we'll be.

That's what the locals call the Long Beach Peninsula.

Gladlig Yule from Oysterville, Pacific County, Washington state. "No longer a slave of ambition, No leader but one of the lambs, I sing of my happy condition, surrounded by acres of clams."

A Happy Christmas to you all but especially warm caring thoughts and feelings for those of you who are alone on this day for whatever reason. May you receive warm fuzzy feelings on this special day and remember that you should be grateful to be here as so many are not.

Jere

Christmas Healing and Sharing On December 15, 1944 members of my unit, of the 3rd Inf. Div., were digging in on the western bank of the Rhine River near Strassbourg, Germany. We had already spent previous Christmas seasons in foxholes, in Africa in 1942, and in Italy in 1943.

As the darkness fell one of my buddies took out his mouth organ and started to play "Silent Night" in homage to the One who had been born during this season 2000 years ago.

Suddenly from across the river the German soldiers picked up the melody and were singing "Stille Nacht" (Silent Night) in their own lanquage and in perfect harmony with the American soldiers on the west side of the river.

For the rest of the evening, and late into the night, Christmas carols were sung jointly by two adversaries, in two different lanquages, using the same melodies, about peace and the Christ Child.

At daybreak on Dec.16,1944, German Panzer Armies lashed out in a counter offensive, which we now know as the "Battle of the Bulge", in an effort to push us back to the English Channel and another disasterous Dunkirk.

It was ironic that many German soldiers that died during that battle wore inscriptions on their belt buckles that said "Gott mit Uns" ( God is with us ), and we Americans had naively assumed that God was only with us.

In retrospect, God WAS with both of us the previous night, when two hostile adversaries, dedicated and determined to exterminate each other, were jointly singing those Christmas hymns, in homage to the Creator who had made us both.

Pat

PAT - your memory of the evening of Dec. 15, 1944 seemed so familiar to me. Then I remembered: I'd heard a similar story from my son, David, who served in Germany as an MP in the earely 1980's. While attending a church off-post, he met a German family who invited him to their home for SUnday dinner. During the conversation that afternoon, the Grandfather recalled some of his memories of his Army days in 1944, especially just before Christmas. He told David about singing Christmas songs one entire night with his mates, while "across the way the American soldiers also remembered in music. Alot of my friends died the next morning." David said by that point in the story, the grandfather had tears in his eyes and reminded David that "war is terrible for both sides" and wished for him that "you never have to experience the kind of violence we did the week before Christmas in 1944."

Hello Everyone,

I just discovered this discussion as I was randomly searching on Google for Will Durant sites. Anyways, I happened to already have signed out Our Oriental Heritage from the library and started reading it up to page 125(as of today). This book has been very meaningful to me and now that I have found this discussion I am sure it will be even more meaningful.

I just spent a couple of hours reading most of the posts up until now. I think this discussion group is awesome! All of you have such great insights to share, it's just amazing. I'm just really disappointed that I couldn't of started with you guys right from the start.

I don't know really why I am posting this message so early because you probably won't be hearing from me for awhile until I am caught up in the reading. I just felt I should say hello and introduce myself, as you have been introduced to me already. A slight issue is the fact that I'm 15. I hope this isn't a problem. I know 15 doesn't really qualify me as a senior, but I believe I can learn a lot from all of your wisdom and perhaps even share the little wisdom that I have too.

Merry Christmas
Damon

We are about to leave that fascinating topic of Ancient Egypt and move on to another sub-topic. There are those participants who have joined our forum since we began in early November. It may be helpful for them to read the first two postings which I have reprinted here so that we may all be following the same guidelines. Here are the postings:--

WELCOME TO ALL! Please consider the following:

We are the product of those who came before us -- our parents, our ancestors of long ago, even primitive man. Our behaviors, our beliefs, and our physicial appearances have been handed down to us in an unbroken line. Everything develops from something else - either genetically or environmentally or both.

Communication -- transportation -- the struggle for survival -- all existed at the dawn of history and even before. The methods changed ever so gradually over the millennia and eons but the inherent needs remain.

In this, his first of 11 volumes, Will Durant wrote; "I wish to tell as much as I can, in as little space as I can, of the contributions that genius and labor have made to the cultural heritage of mankind." He adds, in observing the Orient which he sees as the scene of the primordial stew: "At this historic moment when the ascendancy of Europe is so rapidly coming to an end, when Asia is swellng with resurrected life, and the theme of the twentieth century seems destined to be an all-embracing conflict between the East and the West ... the future faces into the Pacific, and understanding must follow it there." And he wrote that in 1932!!

And then he asks this penetrating question: "How shall an Occidental mind ever understand the Orient?" In order to simultaneously challenge and yet depress us, he answers his own question -- "Not even a lifetime of devoted scholarship would suffice to initiate a Western student into the subtle character and secret lore of the East."

Are we, therefore, about to engage in a useless exercise? Or are we in fact becoming part of that unbroken line wherein we help to pass on to our descendants of tomorrow or 5,000 years from now our own behaviors, beliefs, and appearances. We read today's comments of those who live in the Near and Far East, we learn of new dangers taking place in our homeland being caused by those living on the other side of the earth, and day by day we become more acutely aware of our cultural differences.

How can it be that a culture so different from ours was, in effect, the creator of all that we in the West now are? Let us plunge into a discussion that may change our thinking forever!! Perhaps plunge is not the proper approach. Let us dip our toes in ve-e-ery slo-o-o-ow - ly for two reasons.

1) Almost every remark of Durant is meaty. It can be so easy to move rapidly past comments relevant to our discussion, and 2) Each civilization is a complete topic unto itself. Even the first topic (prehistoric man) has much to tell us about ourselves.

Durant states that four elements constitute civilization:

1 - Economic provision (our first sub-topic) 2 - Political organization 3 - Moral traditions 4 - Pursuit of knowledge and the arts

Following Durant's line of progression, our first sub-topic, as indicated above, is "The Economic Elements of Civilization." Just below the dividing line in the Heading above are quotations which will be periodically changed. This is to help those participants here who have not yet obtained the book as well as helping us to stay together on a particular sub-topic. Volume One is eminently readable and the temptation is to post on comments made later in the book. I urge everyone here to stay together. It will be especially tempting to move ahead to the "civilized" societies. Primitive man, however, did much to create our society of today. Let us not ignore him.

We are a lively group. There will be much disagreement and so it should be among thinking people. However, we will follow the usual Senior Net policy, i.e. all disagreement will be done in an agreeable way.

I ask, also, that you pause regularly to admire our Heading here. Marjorie, who created the beautiful Heading that had been used with the discussion group, "Democracy in America," kindly consented to use her artistic and technical talents to create our attractive Heading above. I thank her profusely for this. A beautiful Heading is like a beautiful cover to a book. It sometimes determines whether the book is opened or not.

Let us, therefore, start with Durant's comment: He says: "In one important sense, the 'savage,' too, is civilized, for he carefully transmits to his children the heritage of the tribe."

We begin, as Durant did, with Economic Elements as expressed by primitive man.

Do you agree with him that man became human when he began the domestication of animals, the breeding of cattle, and the use of milk? Are you in agreement that while man was hunting, woman was making the greatest economic discovery of all -- the bounty of the soil? Do you see a relationship between economics and primitive man providing for the future? Where does the use of fire come in? How about the development of tools? What has primitive man done to move us onto where we are today?

Be sure to click onto the "Subscribe" button and now -- YOUR THOUGHTS, PLEASE?

Robby

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robert b. iadeluca - 12:32pm Nov 1, 2001 PDT (#2 of 1027) Discussion Leader To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussiion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.

Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance.

--------------------------------------------------

Your assistance in following these guidelines would be appreciated.

Robby

The Qualities of a person's character are much more important than the tenets of his or hers formal creed. The capacity to receive truth is variable from person to person; it is not present equally in all. Salvation is open to those who adhere to some church or sect as it is to those of no church at all.

What page are we on in this discussion?

Welcome also to the 15 yr old boy. Maybe we can also learn something from you Damon!

In haste

Carolyn

Wow Damon, WELCOME curiosity seems to be the ticket to this discussion and from your post you sound like you are filled with curiosity - looking forward to your posts.

Robby thanks for the reveiw of how we discuss these books.

OK I had learned about Egyptian Sun Worship and ancient Egypt's explanation for the sun's place in the heavens when we read the "Red Tent" -

Archernar an alpha star meaning end of the river, which sat in the celestial river Eridanus. This is the same river in which Orion stands under the ecliptic and along side the Milky Way. Circling only 27 degrees from the south pole was the great bird called the Phoenix.

The story of ancient Egypt's place in the universe came from the sky "above" the Ben Ben, in a resurrection of dreams that became reality to children who ventured to understand their ancestors. The stories were reminders of where they came from, and where they would return one day. As they saw it, if they could read the minds and dreams of their ancestors, then their descendants would one day be able to read their minds and dreams, as well. Descendants who followed the enlightenment of the ancestors, travel along the Way of the Dead.

Where the Phoenix swims in the cosmic sea reside several birds. Most of our ancestors idealize the foreign bird, for we desire to "fly like the eagle." We wish to mount up on wings as eagles and never fall into the Land Under the Land again.

The culture of Egypt memorialized the Land Under the Land, as that foundation place through which we all must learn to travel in order to get to the third part of the stars of the heavens.

The third part of the stars of the heavens is Kemet, and Havaiki i tapu-tapu-atea. The eagle flies to it. The Elysian Fields are above it. Orion falls though it. And a fountain of youth flows from its deepest fathoms at Archernar. There, standing upon the grave of ancestors grows a great tree which reaches all the way to the flower on the top of the world. The flower is described as a sprig of wheat, a House of Bread, Bethlehem, a Red Pandanus, and a Lotus.

Under that flower a great benevolent star shines with nine heavenly bodies racing around it. This place is called the Heliopolitan nome. It is the city of the sun.

And so, when you hear a folks call the Egyptians, pagan Sun Worshipers, ask yourself - Is it better to worship the place where you are, or the place where you want to be?

Barbara, your post made me think about something I've been thinking about since this Forum started. Every civilization seems to have stories about a time when everything had it's beginning. The Egyptian book I'm reading speaks of the "First Time". Our Australian Aborigines have their legends of the DreamTime where their spirits and Ancestors came from, and everything was created.I'm sure the American Indians have a period too, and many other countries. The Bible says "Inthe Beginning". Perhaps we all have an ancient Race Memory of a period lost in History? I'd like to know what others think.

Jan from Australia.

CAROLYN We are about to begin the study of BABYLONIA (Page 218)--Trevor

Damon:--You are most welcome to be here with us!! As for age, you will find as you grow older (perhaps you have discerned this already) that there are 55 year-old folks whose thinking capacity is null and void -- not any on this forum! - and 15 year-old folks (you are obviously one of them)who will feel right at home with those of us "seniors" of various ages.
May I give you a kindly suggestion. I remember when I was 15 - yes, I honestly remember when I was that age and how I felt and acted - like most of the guys my age, I was impatient. I wanted everything to happen and I wanted it to happen RIGHT NOW! Here in this forum we try to go ve-e-ery slo-o-owly. We do this not because we are "old" and worn out -- you'll find out differently as you go along - but because we have learned that every single sentence of Durant has meat in it and we want to savor his thoughts.
So please try to stay with us. As Trevor says, we are now on Page 218. If your impatience causes you to read very fast, please try to stay with the sub-topic. There are three ways in which you can determine the current sub-topic.
1 - By reading what other participants are discussing at the moment.
2 - By reading my comments. I am the Discussion Leader and try to help us all remain together, so to speak.
3 - By reading the quotes above in GREEN which are periodically changed.
I would guess that practically everyone here is THRILLED that you are joining us. If you click onto the names of the participants, you will learn a bit about our backgrounds. Again -- you are MOST WELCOME and we are looking forward to your comments.
Robby

"Civilization, like life, is a perpetual struggle with death."

- - - Will Durant

Durant moves us on to Babylonia:--

"No one looking at the site of ancient Babylon today would suspect that these hot and dreary wastes along the Euphrates were once the rich and powerful capital of a civilization that almost created astronomy, added richly to the progress of medicine, established the science of language, prepared the first great codes of law, taught the Greeks the rudiments of mathematics, physics and philosophy, gave the Jews the mythology which they gave to the world, and passed on to the Arabs part of that scientific and architectural lore with which they aroused the dormant soul of medieval Europe.

"Standing before the silent Tigris and Euphrates one finds it hard to believe that they are the same rivers that watered Sumeria and Akkad, and nourished the Hanging Gardens of Babylon."

I keep wondering myself how that can be. What causes such vital civilizations to "disappear from the face of the earth?" Does Death always win out?

Robby

An aside to Damon. You say:--"I just spent a couple of hours reading most of the posts up until now. I think this discussion group is awesome! All of you have such great insights to share, it's just amazing. I'm just really disappointed that I couldn't of started with you guys right from the start."

I'm not sure you're aware of it or not but you will notice above in the Heading just below my name is a Link. This Link will take you back to the very beginning of this discussion and you can, at your leisure, accompany us through over 1000 postings where we talked about Primitive Man and Sumeria. You can't post in that discussion as it is READ ONLY.

However, while you are doing that, stay with us in the current discussion and post as you wish.

Robby

P.S. Don't forget to stop to occasionally eat!!

The January issue of The WREX Magazine is on the World Wide Web. There are stories and essays in this issue by Robert Haseltine, ET (Sea Bubble), Emma L. Willey, Alfie Geeson, Mary Jane Rohr, John T. Baker, Pat Booton (Boots), Patrick Bruyere, Gladys Barry and Marilyn Freeman, all members of the Writers Exchange WREX right here on SeniorNet.

There also is a page of watercolor paintings by WREX writer and artist, Ann Dora Cantor.

Remember that The WREX Magazine can be accessed in the SeniorNet Galleries.

I know you will enjoy the variety you'll find in the January issue of The WREX Magazine.

Marilyn Freeman, Publisher of
The WREX Magazine
www.seniornet.org/gallery/wrex/pages.htm

When America was discovered, or rather occupied, they found a fertile virgin land almost too big to imagine for people coming from relatively 'small' overpopulated Europe. A new land, new opportunities, new style of government, new riches to acquire and only American Indians to dislodge who were living the most natural life anyone could live on this immense territory. That wasn’t enough to save them from near extinction.

Americans did not have to slowly become more and more advanced culturally, economically or socially like ancient civilizations such as Egypt did, they came already educated in the necessary skills needed to firmly establish their society. In only a few centuries, America became the most powerful country in the world.

For a new civilization to be born, the old one or ones have to be razed with nothing left but ruins and impoverished populations. The planet earth has all been exploited except small pockets here and there still sort of primitive, land too small and uninteresting to be worth the trouble of conquering.

But if the global warming continues, perhaps cold and bare land north of the 50th parallel might become the envy of countries south of it and there a new civilization might sprout. (in a few centuries)

Robby – I think nothing ever dies completely, it just gets recycled.

Eloïse

Durant's quote about civilization's struggle with death is followed by this:

"And as life maintains itself only by abandoning old, and recasting itself in younger and fresher, forms, so civilization achieves a precarious survival by changing its habitat or its blood."

I've harped on the premise that changing ideas and attitudes can help survival of civiliizations. If people continue to hold on to old ideas that do not work, and continue to make the same mistakes over and over, the struggle with death by a civilization will be lost.

Mary intimated that I am ahead of my time with my thinking, and I ask why? Once again I ask why it seems to difficult to abandon old ways of thinking and go on to new? Is a new idea so uncomfortable? Is it true that even misery is tolerable because it is famiiar?

In the Code of Hammurabi it says,". . . .to prevent the strong from oppressing the weak, . . . .to enlighten the land and further the welfare of the people." How is it possible that these enlightened laws stand side by side with barbarous punishment?

Durant says that "wealth produces ease as well as art; it softens a people to the ways of luxury and peace, and invites invasion from stronger arms and hungrier mouths." Did what Durant says here have anything to do with what happened to the United States on September 11, 2001? Is there the implication that perhaps the rich nation should be aware of and do something about others which are in need? Would doing that help survival of civilizations?

It seems as if I have nothing but questions today.

Mal

Mention is made of the "Hanging Gardens of Babylon" where "hydraulic engines concealed in the columns and manned by shifts of slaves carried water from the Euphrates to the highest tier of the gardens." There are many articles about this on the web. Here is one about....

The History of Plumbing: Babylonia

That Tikkun article said a lot about what we can do.

Remember a number of years ago when "Courtesy is Contagious" was popular? That would be a good thing to revive - not only as individuals but as governments as well.

I remember Robby in the Democracy thread saying "Violence Begets Violence" and we can see that today. Israel wants to follow the suit with the US and other areas seem to be getting volatile. It saddens my heart. What can we do? We can write our reps in Congress, we can pray, we can spread the word, we can help the poor in our cities and around the world and get others to do the same.

Surely if "Violence Begets Violence" and "Courtesy is Contagious" then Praying and Giving and Helping and Being Kind would do wonders not only for the life of our civilization but for the rest of the world, too. We are one planet - one world. What are we doing to it?

Linda

I believe that they do get too fat and too greedy. Many problems in the World today stem from poverty. Poverty creates revolution. Revolution begets violence. Violence destroys infrastructure. We can look at countries like Zimbabwe which at one time was a model of successful cooperation between the colonists and the African Population. It is now on the downward spiral because of money spent in war activity in Africa and the creation of a disenfranchised sector of society. Zimbabwean Society is all but destroyed.

Carolyn

My gosh, Linda! You remember something I said way back in "Democracy in America?" I'd better be careful what I say!!

Carolyn says: "Why do civilizations die? I believe that they do get too fat and too greedy."

If we are talking about progress (if that is what civilizations are supposed to be making), how can a civilization progress without getting "fat?" What is the difference between "gain" and "greed?"

Robby

Maybe it would be better to say that civilizations can become too self-centered. An example of this is what happened during Ikhnaton's reign, isn't it?

The United States has been relatively isolated until recent years. It's easy to become self-centered when a nation feels isolated and protected by two oceans.

Thinking in this country has not generally been of the broadest scope and has not included enough consideration of foreign countries, except for known allies and those we considered enemies. This must change, as the events of September 11th told us much too well.

Mal

There's something to be learned from reading....

The Inscription of Nebuchadnezzar

Re Mal's question in #563...? Is it true that even misery is tolerable because it is familiar?

There must be some truth to it - else why would an abused partner stay with his/her abuser? And why would slaves not overthrow their masters?

No answers, as usual, just more questions.

Z

ZWYRAM asks:--"Why would slaves not overthrow their masters?"

Questions are what make this forum stimulating and that is a good question.

Robby

Z, you are so right. Familiarity to misery makes it somewhat more tolerable. Especially when fears of change and of the unknown are such a deterrent. Is that not why the masses follow blindly a leader, or the "way it has always been? It is known as the herd syndrom I think. Bubble

The distinguished Harvard academic Henry Louis Gates (Chair of the African Studies Program) speaks to these questions in much of his work, especially his most recent book. To overthrow one's oppressors takes a lot of self-confidence, collective support and the means to provide material support during the transition from slavery to freedom. The despicable environment in which slaves live(d) does not create a lot of self-confidence, nor provide much in the way of support from others or the material means to survive. A good example would be the women and children who are brought to the USA as sex slaves, unpaid workers in factories and housekeepers/nannies from Eastern Europe (particularly rural areas of Russia), Africa (yes, still!) and Asia. The NY and Washington DC Police departments have major investigations going on to weed out these atrocities, rescue the victims and prosecute the perpetrators. The victims of today's "slavers" suffer the same fates as those in the ancient kingdoms. A slave is a slave, regardless of whether that individual lived in ancient times or the 21st century!

As we Americans focus on ridding the world of terrorism, we might remember that there is domestic terrorism for individuals held against their will in our country, far from their own homelands and families. And mostly just for the price of a small amount of food or the promise of a job (never forthcoming!) and income to help their families at home.

Ouch zwyram -"why would an abused partner stay with his/her abuser? And why would slaves not overthrow their masters?" without opening a whole can of worms here this is such a small part of the many issues - this sounds like the same rhetoric we heard after WW2 when the question was why didn't the Jews rise up in the concentration camps.

Power is welded in many ways and an abused partener is not only into the pot of abuse that slowly warms up, like a frog sitting happily on a rock in a pot over the beginnings of a fire but than, other controls are put into place that become more threatening and they are alternated with how much change will be tomorrow because "I love you!" is peppered through out. We also have a history, especially from the church, of the old song - "Stand by Your Man."

Anyone held in bondage needs assitance not only in becoming free but in the belief that they can be free and can function in freedom without loosing what they hold most dear. Slaves have often lost what they hold most dear (their children) as well as, fear of loosing their life they were trapped phycologically. And than we have the wise abuser who shows the individual the value the oppressed have in their slave state - is this not what cooperations have done since the Industrial Revolution and only now the more educated employee is in the drivers seat as loyalty, accompanied by workers no longer having a single skill, changed the balance of power in the market place.

This brings me back full circle in that I am not convinced it is greed that is at the bottom of decay so much as the need to control based on fear of loosing. I'm thinking back on Germany in the 1870s when (again I do not remember the document - something Bismark) the seeds for Hitler's phylosophy were already established in that Germany was sure there was not enough land to support themselves and various nations were determained to be annexed and also, the Jews were a problem in which they were already being sanctioned - I believe their status of non-citizenship therefore higher taxes were required was part of this document.

Yes this could be called greed but to me I see the need to control. Control land, wealth from the land and people.

And then in order to create a peace I believe you need folks with integrity. Without integrity it is like walking into a house of mirrors. Not only mirrors but those similar to how we saw ourselves in the mirrors of a fun house at the amusement park.

And so back to the concept of "full circle" - I'm thinking now every generation must grow through issues of control and integrity. Therefore, I see as individuals and groups work out these values there will be war, enslavement and ill-use of power. Power in itself isn't the bad guy it is the use of power just as fire isn't the bad guy it is the use of fire. But then we get into the whole issues of mass action based on mass manipulation regardless if it comes off the alters of the faithful or the town cryer or posters on street corners or TV programming.

Mal - Your post 568 is what we should all think from now on in North America. What can a few people do to prevent becoming too fat and prosperous? We should try to influence those who are. Not the poor people like us, but the all too powerful multinationals. The media first should recognize the problem and broadcast the injustice of becoming too prosperous. I understand what you are saying in your posts and I am sorry to be so helpless when I see what is happening. I help in my own small way with those around me, my children and grand'children and those in need by volunteering. But I can't fight multinationals.

Robby I think that it is very hard to have gains above and beyond ordinary people and not becoming greedy. C.S. Lewis wrote, "its not having money that is wrong, it is having more money than most other people". That is the difference between 'gain' and 'greed' in my opinion.

The discussion on Democracy in America was like having studied it in University and so much of it stayed in my memory too Carolyn.

I don't think that it was inner collapse so much that brought down the Egyptian civilization. In my mind the Egyptian civilization could have gone on indefinitely, self-contained, a monolithic society as long as the Nile rose yearly with its flood of silt to farm. (It went on for three thousand years.) But there were outside forces that were working away at them in one form or another. This led to the formation of a military class to fight off invaders and to expand their own power. But other forces also brought about drastic changes.

Egyptian ships were not built to sail the Mediterranian with the ease that they negotiated the Nile. Their ships were large and made of bundles of reeds with the ends bound together and bent upward to form a bow. The whole thing was held together with a taut cable because there was no keel. The Egptians also used a dhow sail for a wind that blew from the stern which is just fine for sailing against the current of the Nile with the wind that normally blew upriver. You used manpower to row back. This kind of ship developed because the Egyptians simply did not have access to timber. By 2,000 BC the Egyptian reed boats were out trading on the Mediterranian as far away as Lebanan, but not sailing too far from land.

New technology

Meanwhile to the east, where there were trees, the early shipbuilders were developing different methods of boatbuilding. A wooden keel and ribs and planking and also a different kind of large, square sail came into being. Eventually these developed into warships and galleys that sailed out of sight of land. And that takes an understanding of navigation.

A new power, Phoenician merchant ships

The Phoenicians developed their ships into ocean-going, cargo-loaded round boats, so called because of their shape. Gone were the galleys that took slaves to row and a great expense to feed. And something else developed out of this new sea-going peoples. The Phoenician alphabet. A new technology that shook the western world.

Carolyn -- I think that we can fight the multinationals. The anti-globilization movement is becoming stronger and stronger as time goes by and as people hear more about the atrocities of globilization. Although this movement is very unorganized and radical to say the least, it still has a future. Perhaps that's what it needs...wise people to better organize it. I would really recommend everyone to read "No Logo" if you haven't yet.

Relative to the people with the power and money, I agree with you guys, we are pretty helpless. But now with the internet for example, we have a tool to fight against the oppressors. It's just a matter of how we use it.

In today's N.Y.Times there is an article on Taliban justice that answers Robby's question about how far civilization has advanced in the past 5000 years.

The gory punishment handed out to miscreants of Taliban Justice at he present time include the cutting off of hands and feet of petty thieves and public executions of adulterers.>p>

Pat

Did the "fat and greedy" dynasties in Ancient Egypt "lose out" or did they "win" over the lesser civilizations which had no military to speak of and a weak government?

Robby

Damon, you say:--"The anti-globilization movement is becoming stronger and stronger as time goes by and people hear more about the atrocities of globilization."

As you have been reading about Ancient Egypt, you undoubtedly realized that to the people in the Near East, that part of the world was the whole globe. As Egypt warred against their neighbors, it was their goal to spread their empire and capture "the world." At the same time, they spread their economic wings wide, taking gold from Nubia, etc.

As you look at the globalization of those times, Damon, do you consider what they did an atrocity? Should they have stayed within their own borders?

Robby

Durant continues:--

"As in Egypt the Nile, so here the Tigris and the Euphrates provided for thousands of miles, an avenue of comerce and -- in their southern reaches -- springtime inundations that helped the peasant to fertilize his soil.

"For rain comes to Babylonia only in the winter months. From May to November it comes not at all. And the earth, but for the overflow of the rivers, would be as arid as northern Mesopotamia was then and is today. Through the abundance of the rivers and the toil of many generations of men, Babylonia became the Eden of Semitic legend, the garden and granary of western Asia."

We spoke in earlier postings of the importance of water to the development of civilization. Babylonia seems to be no different. As they constantly say: "The Land Between the Rivers."

Robby

To help ourselves be oriented, here is a map of the Near East showing where BABYLONIA was located.

Robby

Eloise, I'm not sure what you mean by "multinationals". My dictionary says the word means "Having operations, subsidiaries, or investments in more than two countries: a multinational corporation," and I ask what is wrong with that? We are all citizens of the world, aren't we?

Damon talks about the "atrocities of globalization", but does not way what they are. What is wrong with globalization, as long as we maintain our nations and nationalities? Is it that people are afraid they and their countries will be swallowed up by some huge something I don't see or understand?

Mal

This is like asking, why didn't the Afghan women fight for their freedom? There are infinite reasons why people stay with their oppressors. Too many to state. I believe it is all of the reasons stated so eloquently by all of you. But, this reminds me of the story of Aristotle's cave. There was a cave filled with people. There was an opening in the cave, but many remained in the cave, many would not even turn and see the opening, and some did come out into the light. Are some more aware? Basically, what I think is that some are more aware. Some are more curious and adventurous. Some are physically stronger. Some are spiritually stronger, and some are mentally and emotionally stronger. I don't know why. However, the ones who have the qualities of strength in all areas will be the oppressors unless there is a strong personal sense that doing harm to others is immoral. It seems like we have not been able to do that in our humanness.

I would hope that as we discuss various activities in today's world, that we continue to compare them with activities we have examined in the Ancient World. That, of course, is the purpose of this forum. We are not only interested in "where we are now" but our "origins" as well.

Voltaire asks:--"I want to know what were the steps by which man passed from barbarism to civilization." We are asking the same thing.

Robby

Good to see you participating, Pumkin. You tell us regarding attitude of slaves and masters toward each other:--"Some are more aware. Some are more curious and adventureous. Some are physically stronger. Some are spiritually stronger, and some are mentally and emotionally stronger. However, the ones who have the qualities of stength in all areas will be the oppressors unless there is a strong personal sense that doing harm to others is immoral."

Thank you for bringing up the sub-topic of morality, an important one in Durant's eyes. As you know, he points this out in each civilization we examine and will soon be relating it to the Babylonia civilization.

Robby

Does anyone have a copy of Gray's Elegy? Or is it in the book? (re: one of the green quotes up there.)

We remember everything you say, Robby --- always!

Linda

What we have been calling "globalization" here is America is looked upon an "imperialism" by many other countries.

I can't give a textbook definition of either but I would guess "globalization" is supposed to be spreading out and sharing what we have back and forth and going toward a one world mind-set.

"Imperialism" is reaching out to other countries to take what they have for ourselves, e.g., oil. It is exploiting others - such as the garment workers in Third World countries.

We, as a country, have sometimes duped ourselves into thinking we are globalizing when we are really not.

Linda

I don't understand this fear of globalization. Multinational corporations provide employment to citizens of many countries and boost their economies as part of the bargain. Globalization assumes that participants will provide markets as well as supply goods and services to the world economy. Nations cannot rely solely on supply and demand for goods at home. No country is self sufficient. There are inequities of course but these can only be worked through experience and governmental control. The World Bank with major nation help, has saved the economies of many troubled countries. The U.S. participates in UNICEF a world organization whose task it is to help children with food and education in all parts of the world. These are all globalization activities which deserve applause not fear. The rise of Babylon came through absorption of Akkad and Sumeria.Not by their destruction. Sumeria may have disappeared but its laws and culture were applied in Akkad and and then by Sargon and finally by Hammurabi in Babylon.The Babylonians spoke a Semitic language which came to them through Akkad. The Babylonians may be a new people between the rivers but they are also Akkadian and Sumerian. The dominance of one group or another in an area forming a slightly different civilization with more advanced tools may not be an indication that the prior group was wiped out or defeated in battle. They may have just been assimilated. I think Durant indicates some of this in his discussion of the formation of Babylonia.The absorption of these two peoples into Babylonia might also be described as the result of Globalization on the part of Babylon.

Ellen and DamonR - Good point about new technology.

Perhaps what the world needs now is a 'young' strong leader to organize and rally people against the incidious progress towards complete control of the world's economy by multi-nationals. Our generation would not have enough 'time' or sheer strength to see it through.

Justin - There are fewer and fewer small companies to compete against multinatinals because they buy out all the competition. If they are so good for the world why are Third Word countries becoming poorer?

Eloïse

Linda made a very good point. When I refered to globilization I was actually refering to imperialism, or a better word would be neocolonialism. I have no problem with globalization, I actually support it. The uniting of all the nations into one would mean great things, perhaps even a stop to war. But we are far from that and I can only dream about it.

Robby, as far as your question goes, I understand what you are saying. And honestly I don't think I have the background to be able to answer it. I consider an atrocity anything that is inhumane. Conquering other nations in an attempt to gain power usually is at the consequence of others. So in this case I can consider what the Ancient Egyptians did as an atrocity. But at the same time, had they stayed in their own borders, humanity would probably have progressed at a slower rate. I guess the real atrocity was the way that they tried to spread out their empire. Maybe if they didn't do it to strengthen themselves, but to strengthen humanity, then it would be a different story. Should they have stayed in their own borders? I don't think that would have been very beneficial for humans in whole. Did they approach their goal in the right way? Not at all.

Justin and Mal, globalization in the present day shows many benefits for us westerners. And it really puts on a good face for us too. Nike has a Code of Conduct, promoting better working conditions for all. But if you read the stories of the workers, they have not even been given the opportunity to read this Code of Conduct. With globalization comes free trade, which has a real negative effect for the Third World. What happens is that these poor nations have lots of people who need work. So naturally they would love Nike to setup factories in their country and provide work for their people. But when Nike has to decide where they want to put their factories, that's the problem. Competition between the poor nations happens and they lower and lower their minimum wage. I'd really like to go on about this but it's hard to relate it with the book and I probably shouldn't of brought it up in the first place (sorry about that). If you are interested, I strongly you to get the book No Logo by Naomi Klein.

Justin tells us:--"The rise of Babylon came through absorption of Akkad and Sumeria.Not by their destruction. Sumeria may have disappeared but its laws and culture were applied in Akkad and and then by Sargon and finally by Hammurabi in Babylon.The Babylonians spoke a Semitic language which came to them through Akkad. The Babylonians may be a new people between the rivers but they are also Akkadian and Sumerian.

"The dominance of one group or another in an area forming a slightly different civilization with more advanced tools may not be an indication that the prior group was wiped out or defeated in battle. They may have just been assimilated. I think Durant indicates some of this in his discussion of the formation of Babylonia.The absorption of these two peoples into Babylonia might also be described as the result of Globalization on the part of Babylon."

Could our nations, through globalization, as Justin implies, be gradually merging their languages and cultures for a greater benefit just as Babylon did with Akkadia and Sumeria?

Robby

Actually there are more and more small companies starting each year. The multinationals commonly practice outsourcing for the simple reason that small companies can do some things better than the conglomerates. The practice also lowers internal operating costs.I don't know which Third World countries you are talking about. Some of them suffer from internal strife which keeps them from taking advantage of world economic oportunities.Some of them are led by dictatorships which dominate their economies and leave them unattractive to business ventures. Those that present minimum risk for business usually benefit from globalization. Businessmen generally try to create markets in third world countries as well as employ cheap labor forces. I hope we have learned something from ancient Egypt. Cities destroyed are cities destroyed. But cities with invested capital are prospering markets for everyone.

Damon, you say:--"I consider an atrocity anything that is inhumane. Conquering other nations in an attempt to gain power usually is at the consequence of others. So in this case I can consider what the Ancient Egyptians did as an atrocity. But at the same time, had they stayed in their own borders, humanity would probably have progressed at a slower rate. I guess the real atrocity was the way that they tried to spread out their empire. Should they have stayed in their own borders? I don't think that would have been very beneficial for humans in whole."

This is the dilemma, Damon, isn't it? As we examine the ancient civilizations, we see the "atrocities" they conduct which at the same time further their culture and that, in turn, benefits us. In this forum, we are constantly trying to define what is "good" and what is "evil."

Robby

Durant continues:"Babylonia was a product of the union of the Akkadians and the Sumerians. Their mating generated the Bablonian type, in which the Akkadian Semitic strain proved dominant. Their warfare ended in the triumph of Akkad, and the establishment of Babylon as the capital of all lower Mesopotamia.
"At the outset of this history stands the powerful figure of Hammurabi (2123-2081 B.C.), conqueror and law-giver through a reign of forty-three years. Primeval seals and inscriptions transmit him to us partially -- a youth full of fire and genius, a very whirl-wind in battle, who crushes all rebels, cuts his enemies into pieces, marches over inaccessible mountains, and never loses an engagement.

"Under him the petty warring states of the lower valley were forced into unity and peace, and disciplined into order and security by an historic code of laws."

He cut those who opposed him into pieces and then unified the states. Good? Bad?

Robby

Here is another extremely informative site about Babylonia.
Babylonia

Under the United States and its allies, petty, warring tribes in Afghanistan will be forced into unity and peace, and disciplined into order and security by an international code of laws.

Robby, I don't believe that the visual arts of Egypt, great as they were, had an influence on near eastern cultures. Mud brick construction was the building form of Babylonia and that's an entirely different surface than stone walls for inscriptions and fresco paintings. Sculpture, perhaps yes. The Babylonians delighted in animal forms in sculpture, almost always being shown in the death throes of the hunt.

Mal, I don't know where I got the "Winter Soltice". It is something that I have carried around for years and I don't remember who the author was. Its my Christmas thought. You know, pray to whatever powers that are that the ice age won't return again.

Globalization is off topic for us so I will say just one more thing about it and then have done with it. Free Trade is a policy independent from globalization and it does not have a negative effect on other countries. It is the element that attracts business and is therefore beneficial. There are entrepreneurs who are undesirable exploiters. But the policy is a good because it attracts investment in areas that would ordinarily do without. ... Now let's talk about Gray' Elegy Written in a country church yard. One line stands out to me. " The paths of glory lead but to the grave." Sargon and Hammurabi did their thing and achieved lasting glory but so what. They are not here to reap the benefits. We reap the benefits. We gleaned the good from their laws and dumped the inapplicable and the punishments.

Mal we have an economist here who gives lectures on the ills of globilization. We are told by the multinationals this economic theory will help the third world. This is a lie. It only helps the wealthy nations and the poorer nations become poorer. I watched a BBC documentary and it showed what was happening and interviewed the Leaders of the World Bank and boy did they get nasty when confronted about their edicts to the third world and what it was doing to them. I cannot see how intelligent people swallow the great lie we are fed by world leaders. I had already formed my own opinion from what has happened to our little nation which is now 39th instead of 3rd in the developed nations since our governments made radical reforms. We have a disenfranchised middle class which has almost disappeared and a class of poor we never ever saw before. There has also been a documentary about our radical policies of whole hearted espousement of globilization called "The failed Experiment" I am not sure which country it was made in. Our country has the most open borders in the World as far as trade goes.

Carolyn

Damon, I dream of that one world mentality also. Someday it has to come.

Maybe with all the other government posts, we also need a Minister of Ethics.

Linda

This link to AKKADIA will explain how two cultural groups formed the principle elements in the population of Mesopotamia.

Robby

Durant continues:--"The Code of Hammurabi was unearthed at Susa in 1902, beautifully engraved upon a diorite cyliner that had been carried from Babylon to Elam (ca. 1100 B.C.) as a trophy of war. Like that of Moses, this legislation was a gift from Heaven, for one side of the cylinder shows the King receiving the laws from Shamash, the Sun-god himself.
"One would not readily attribute the words to an Oriental 'despot' 2100 B.C., or suspect that the laws that they introduce were based upon Sumerian prototypes now six thousand years old. It begins with compliments to the gods, but takes no further notice of them in its astonishingly secular legislation. It mingles the most enlightened laws with the most barbarous punishments, and sets the primitive lex talionis and trial by ordeal alongside alaborate judicial prodedures and a discriminating atttempt to limit marital tyranny.

"All in all, these 285 laws, arranged almost scientifically under the headings of Personal Property, Real Estate, Trade and Business, the Family, Injuries, and Labor, form a code more advanced and civilized than that of Assyria a thousand and more years later, and in many respects 'as good as that of a modern European state.'"

I urge everyone here to click onto the CODE OF HAMMURABI and, despite its length, to take considerable time to go over the numerous laws. It is enlightening -- not only from the point of view of seeing them as the action of a "despot" made over 4,000 years ago but seeing them and comparing them with our laws today.

Your reactions, please?

Robby

Robby, a little of the subject, but....

Damon says:".....The anti-globilization movement is becoming stronger and stronger as time goes by........."

I hope not. Take away from the rich and give to the poor--communist slogan---, sometimes called socialism, may have been the cause of the downfall of more civilizations than we can think of.

A kindly reminder as we get into passionately held beliefs to refrain from political comments. Our current sub-topic is Babylonia.

Robby

Click HERE for a map and a photo of the 900 mile-long Tigris River which runs through the current Turkey, Syria and Iraq.

Robby

I thought of you intrepid readers when I saw the following book review in Sunday's Montgomery Advertiser. It was written by Thomas & Cheryl Upchurch who own and operate Montgomery, Alabama's, Capitol Book & News. They had written reviews of books people might overlook, but shouldn't miss. You can reach them at www.capitolbook.com.:

"Heroes of History" by Will Durant. Begun by Durant when he was 92 years old, and conceived as a 23-part series of audio lectures, the 21 essays in this book span nearly the whole of recorded history. Durant died in 1981 at the age of 96, and the manuscript for this one was lost for 20 years. Remember when everybody owned, but nobody ever read, Durant's 10-volume "The Story of Civilization?" Well, now the essence of it is here in one very accessible volume. ($27.50 hardcover)."

I'm sending them an e-mail to let them know a group of SeniorNetters are actually reading The Story of Civilization. How many of us are actually reading the book and participating in this discussion? Sue

Robby, I only read the first few pages of The Code of Hammurabi. Well, my first impression, an executioner was never out of work.

I think our society could be compared with that of Babylon. We are asked to swear on the bible in Court yet are told time and time again we have a secular state. I think our many democracies also show two faces.

Carolyn

Familiarity and fear cause some abused women to remain in jeopardy . I don't know a great deal about their psychological responses, only what I picked up as a fundraiser for battered women's shelters. But I know that many women who enter our shelter return to be abused again. They very often say " he says he won't do it again" But of course he does again, and again and so the cycle of violence goes on for those women.These women often think they can't leave a bad home because the provider will kill them or will injure the children. Many have never worked before or have worked very little before being married so they rely on the provider who abuses them. The more children they have the more difficult it is to leave. It is so easy to say" Why doesn't the woman just leave home if she is abused" But clearly the difficulties often seem insurmountable for the abused woman. So I can also see why slaves do not run to freedom when they have a chance. The need for personal confidence and courage is great but the role these people are in is not conducive to building confidence.

Jan B

You commented that the religions seem to teach a beginning and an end. These are termed linear religions in my Religion class. For an exception, you may wish to examine Buddhism, which is a cyclical religion and teaches there is no beginning and no end.

Sorry to take so long to answer you but 50 or so posts in a day take a while to get through..

Jere

Sue - Regarding your post 606, there are about 20 of us regularly posting in this forum, their names are listed plus a few more I missed in my post 542.

Robby - I read the laws of Hammurabi and was interested to know that corn was used as currency - the "sister of a god" becoming a tavern keeper - thieves were usually put to death - a person could be stolen (slave) - 'jumping in the water' meant drowning as punishment - you could sell a wife if she was barren, or take another and keep the first as servant - women could own property - the hand cut off a physician for mistreatment of a patient.

There must have been also lawyers, prisons, a police force, a court of law, trials, then their law enforcement agency must have been huge considering all the laws in force.

Carolyn - Yes, swear on the Bible. Sunday is a day of 'rest'. 'Sabbatical' etc.

Jere - The Bible also writes that there is no beginning and no end but eternity.

Justin - Abused women don't have the psychological strength to fight against an abuser. Thank you for your contribution to the defence of abused women. More men should.

Éloïse

Thank you, Sue (Spring Creek Farm), for alerting the newspaper in Montgomery, Alabama, to what we are doing in Senior Net regarding Durant. It always helps to notify the media that many of us "older" people are not sitting around in rocking chairs with our brains turning to jelly. And, as you indicated, Durant was no slouch either, was he, starting a new project at age 92?

Robby

Carolyn says:--"I think our society could be compared with that of Babylon. We are asked to swear on the bible in Court yet are told time and time again we have a secular state. I think our many democracies also show two faces."

Speaking of "two faces," Durant tells us:"Despite the secular quality of his laws, Hammurabi was clever enough to gild his authority with the approval of the gods. He built temples as well as forts, and coddled the clergy by constructing at Babylon a gigantic sanctuary for Marduk and his wife (the national deities), and a massive granary to store up wheat for gods and priests. These and similar gifts were an astute investment, from which he expected steady returns in the awed obedience of the people.

"From their taxes he financed the forces of law and order, and had enough left over to beautify his capital. Palaces and temples rose on every hand -- a bridge spanned the Euphrates to let the city spread itself along both banks -- ships manned with ninety men plied up and down the river. Two thousand years before Christ Babylon was already one of the richest cities that history had yet known."

What is your reaction to Hammurabi's mixing of religion and secularism? Would this have anything to do with Babylon's becoming "one of the richest cities that history had yet known?"

Robby

Eloise:--Thank you for letting us know that there are about 20 participants in this forum. This is one of the reasons (there are many) why it is so successful -- there is always interaction and we learn from each other as well as from Durant.

Robby

What interests me in the Code of Hammurabi is # 5.

"5. If a judge try a case, reach a decision, and present his judgment in writing; if later error shall appear in his decision, and it be through his own fault, then he shall pay twelve times the fine set by him in the case, and he shall be publicly removed from the judge's bench, and never again shall he sit there to render judgement."

If the people of Babylonia read these laws, they certainly knew they'd better behave, or else. That included judges, I'm pleased to see.

Is it possible that Hammmurabi learned from history and knew what happened after Ikhnaton's reign when the priests became so rich and powerful that they took over Egypt and it fell? If so, he had a precedent and wasn't about to allow the same thing to happen to Babylonia. He knew he had to appease the priests, however, so built temples and made provision for them.

Doesn't the government of the United States combine religion and secularism in a way today? The property of religions is not taxed. That certainly is an advantage, considering the kinds of landed property and wealth some of those religions have.

Hammurabi was a very astute politician and ruler, who kept a tight rein on everything and everyone in his realm. What's more he wrote it down, engraved in stone for all to see.

His control was remarkable, and he was smart enough that even the lowest thought he was great. That was accomplished at least partially, I believe, by supporting the gods and the priests in whom the "lesser people", generally supersitious, put most of their faith.

This is what governments like ours in the United States does in a way, and it is only when it oversteps boundaries that separate church and state that it finds itself in trouble on that score.

As a follow up to some posts about religion here, I'll probably be run out of town, but I personally think when you're dead you're dead. The only kind of immortality I see is in children, grandchildren, great grandchildren and others to follow who carry some of the same genes I have which came from those who preceded me.

Mal

Mal - We are all entitled to our opinions and we respect yours. I agree with you that when churches become wealthy they should also pay taxes, especially when they can afford building extravagant temples and cathedrals.

This demonstration of wealth is condemned by Jesus. Someone here said that sharing the wealth was a communist concept, right, and that is what Jesus preached.

Human beings are the ones who build temples and palaces, not God. Wealth corrupts kings and high priests alike, but men tend to blame God instead of human beings for this, when we know that all men are basically faulty. It is only through extreme self control and strenght of character that people succeed in not giving in to our most base instincts.

Robby - Hammurabi's mixing religion and secularism, he knew very well what his 'lesser people' needed, they needed to be able to worship their God and he used their faith to increase his power and wealth in cooperation with religious leaders who also loved luxury and power.

Nothing is new, life revolves around deeply ingrained religious beliefs in ancient times as well as in modern times. What we need most is the wisdom to sort it all out.

Éloïse

Hi to all, This is Mary from S. CA. I was logged in under another name(cupkak), but it got lost and I had to re-regester. I hope you all had a very nice Christmas and will have a great and blessed New Year. Justin, I read your ideas on slavery and control and why women or slaves remain. I enjoyed it. Thanks for your ideas. Mary

I have heard of a stagecoach turning into a pumpkin but I never heard of a "cupcak" turning into a "pumkin." However, whatever your handle, Mary, your opinions are as welcome as ever.

Robby

Eloise said:"...Hammurabi's mixing religion and secularism, he knew very well what his 'lesser people' needed, they needed to be able to worship their God and he used their faith....."

We may as well accept the fact that the masses (his 'lesser people') have a need for a personal relationship with ‘their God'; the concept of an impersonal one is alien to them.

And how was the concept of ‘their God' and ‘their faith' achieved? Probably the same way as it is in our time.....to bring the highest mystical ideas within the reach of the lowest mental capacity. ( his ‘lesser people')....... Which is usually done by symbolizing the ideas or/and by turning them into myths.

-

About the Babylonian (Nebuchadnezzar II) captivity and deportation of Jews, and then their return to Palestine by their release under the rule of the Persian king Cyrus. I understand that the majority of the deported Jews did not return to Palestine at the end of the exile but became a part of the Diaspora, that body of Jews dispersed outside of Palestine, and at that time, continuing to live in Babylon.

Its interesting to read about the exile in light of today's world. I saw the Turks in Germany, not brought there by slavery but by promises of jobs in a growing economy during the 1950's, especially in Berlin when the city was divided. Germans just did not want to live in Berlin at that time so Turks were brought in for the rebuilding of West Berlin and to work in the factories that were being re-established. This was also true of other West Germany industrial sites and types of employment such as garbage collectors. Whole communities of Turks sprung up with their own particular culture. Then the German economy tightened up and the German government decided that it was time to ship the Turks back to Turkey. By that time the children were teenagers and older and spoke German, had German schooling, and fought going back. This created some very severe tensions in Germany. They were not truly a part of German culture, but had nothing to go back to. Maybe the Jews in Babylon faced the same dilemma.

Here is a picture that Durant paints for us. As we read it, let us simultaneously bring to our awareness the fact that this was a civilization not too far separated from pre-historic times. Let us also, as we read this, try to compare their mode of dress with those living today in the Near East.--

"The people were of Semitic appearance, dark in hair and features, masculinely bearded for the most part, and occasionally bewigged. Both sexes wore the hair long. Sometimes even the men dangled curls. Frequently the men, as well as the women, disguised themselves with perfumes.

"The common dress for both sexes was a white linen tunic reaching to the feet. In the women it left one shoulder bare. In the men it was augmented with mantle and robe. As wealth grew, the people developed a taste for color, and dyed for themselves garments of blue on red, or red on blue, in stripes, circles, checks or dots. The bare feet of the Sumerian period gave way to shapely sandals, and the male head, in Hammurabi's time, was swathed in turbans.

"The women wore necklaces, bracelets and amulets, and strings of beads in their carefully coiffured hair. The men flourished walking-sticks with carved heads, and carried on their girdles the prettily designed seals with which they attested their letters and documents.

"The priests wore tall conical caps to conceal their humanity."

What are your reactions to the tableau that Durant painted for us?

Robby

Hubert brings up the importance of symbols in the practice of religion. Something for us to keep our eye on as we continue to examine each civilization.

Ellen call to our attention the Diaspora, those groups of people who, for one reason or another, leave their homeland and are dispersed far and wide. Another concept to keep our eye on as we move from civilization to civilization.

Robby

You have all clicked onto the Link showing you the beautiful Tigris River. Now click onto EUPHRATES RIVER to see that other lovely river in Mesopotamia.

Robby

Robby: In answer to your question about body adornment that grew in popularity. I suppose that it shows that the population is aquiring more wealth, that Babylonian society has the means to purchase dyed and pattern-woven clothing, jewelry and slaves to create elabrate hairstyles for them. I also think that its a love of color and the appreciation of design that we all have. I have lady friends that are in their 80's who still go to the beauty shop once a week to have their hair styled and nails painted and wear big diamond rings and pins.

The Phoenicians developed a beautiful deep crimson dye which took so much slave labor to harvest. It was the Mediterranean mollusk called Purpura and the dye was made by extracting a secretion from it. The process took vast amounts of mollusks, large numbers of slaves to harvest, and was so rare that only the royals could afford it. And buy it they did.

Mal: We may both be forced to leave town for I agree with you. When you are dead you are dead ...but the genes live on. They connect us with our ancestors and with our children's children. We do have continuity and it is so much more meaningful than all that platonic thought. Of course, the Greeks didn't know about genes. So the idea of a soul might be seen as a precursor of our real connectivity.

Comments on mortality are certanly relevant in discussing Mankind and civilizations. Nevertheless, I caution everyone to be acutely aware of Post 2 in part 1 (click onto Link in Heading below my name) which I re-printed a few posts ago.

Robby

Robby; Sorry about that mortality stuff. I am hesitating now to comment on the diaspora and the Assyrian practice of population transferance. If that is in order, say so.

You have not stepped out of bounds, Justin. My post was not aimed at you but as a reminder to all of us that when we are on the topic of religion or one related to it, that it is easy to tread on someone else's toes. However, let us not go too far in the other direction. As we have all seen since the start of "The Story of Civilization," religion plays such an important part in each civilization, it is hard and actually wrong to ignore it. To be more specific, I will re-print Post 2 of Part 1 as follows:

"To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

"The following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussiion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.

"Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

"Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance."

Robby

Please, everybody! Don't anyone be on the defensive. Everyone here is doing wonderfully at posting. Don't let's be so defensive that nobody wants to talk about anything.

Mal:--We are currently on Page 222. We will be discussing Babylonia for some time and when we are finished with that, we will start Assyria which starts on Page 265.

I think we have confusion regarding the term "Part 1." Babylonia began on Page 218 and I think you were referring to the first part of Babylonia which you were thinking of as Part 1. "Part 1" that I referred to has nothing to do with the sections of the Volume.

After we had done approx 1000 postings, that part was placed in a temporary archive which was arbitrarily called Part 1. In another week or so, we will reach another 1000 postings. That will be placed in the temporary archive and labeled Part 2. And so on. Part 1 that I referred to was the first 1000 postings that our newcomers had not had an opportunity to participate in.

We are currently on Page 222 in the Section entitled "From Hammaurabi to Nebuchadrezzar" just as designated in the Heading. Looking at that Heading just above the GREEN quotes will always tell us what Section of the Chapter we are in.

You are right on target!

Robby

Thank you, Robby. I think it's the switch from warm to below freezing weather here in North Carolina that mixed me up, ha ha! I deleted my previous post that asked for this information, but am grateful to know where I'm supposed to be reading in the book. Incidentally, my book has Chapter IX, then Babylonia as a chapter title, then # I as a subtitle: From Babylonia to Nebuchadrezzar. It was to that Part 1 that I referred. See how confusing I can be?

Thanks again.

Mal

The identity of those who were taken in the Babylonian Captivity is not very clear. Thomas Thompson, the archeologist from the University of Copenhagen reports that " The Assyrian Army introduced the policy of population transference, which involved the transportation and the deportation of peoples across the empire." They moved whole populations leaving only the old and the very young on the site. Often the captured people were moved to sites that been previously vacated.The practice of population transference happened over and over again. This resulted in a great mixture of peoples in the land between the rivers. We tend to think of the jews as residing one area and the Hittites etc. in another but after the actions of the Babylonians and Assyrians in moving people around it is difficult to speak of a group with a specific identity.

The topic of population transference which Justin brings up has existed in "modern" times but apparently has an ancient heritage. The Arcadian transference comes quickly to mind. Perhaps Eloise might have some comments about that.

Robby

The INDIAN REMOVAL ACT gives the sordid details of the forcible movement of various American Indian tribes as America's population of Europeans increased.

Raises the question -- just how primitive are we now in the attitude of one "civilization" toward another "civilization?"

Robby

The Acadians came from France and settled in the Canadian Eastern provinces of Nova Scotia, New Brunswick and Newfoundland. These provinces were ceded to England in 1713 and the British deported a large proportion of them to Louisianna in the US. Acadians speak their special brand of French mixed with English that is unique to Acadians in that part of Canada, a little different from the French spoken in Quebec. The Louisianna Acadians (Cajuns) still demonstrate their French ancestry in their language and life style.

Arcadia on the other hand was an ancient region of Grece, the name came from Arcadius, 377 - 408 Roman Emperor from the Orient, quoted from my Larousse dictionary.

Those two mentioned above have no connection between them that I know about.

Éloïse

In this STORY OF DEPORTATION OF ACADIANS that Eloise tells us about, it is pointed out that many of the French Canadians have neither forgotten or forgiven the British.

Robby

Longfellow's Evangeline gives a pretty comprehensive view of the Acadian transfer. The cajuns who are left and who occasionally come out of the swamp bring with them old folk music and a strange patois of French and English that few except cajun's understand. Chief Joseph's band of Native Americans who were driven in the cold to western Canada is another fine example of population transference. Thank you Robby and Eloise. Eloise, you may be interested in a French novel about Louisiana and the Cajuns by Maurice Denuziere. It is published JC Lattes in le livre de poche. There are four tomes so there is lots of enjoyable reading. Before leaving this topic of population transference we should recall the movement of the Seminoles, the Cheyenne,the nez Perce,the Sioux and so many more onto reservations. This is ,I think, while not America's only shameful act,it is one of our most shameful.

I apologise Eloise for the misinformation. I am positive that you are much more familiar with the Bible than I.

I had been told the the Bible started with "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" which was the religion professor's justification for calling it a linear religion.

The class was required because the university was a Methodist university and I learned so much there, such as there is more than one version of the Bible, and the two testaments did not always agree with each other.

HOWEVER, I took the class in 1956 and my memory is not good. I probably got things mixed up. My apologies.

Jere

I always wondered about the origins of my father's name, Arcadius, although I doubt that his mother was educated in Greek literature. His mother's name was Éloïse of Abélard and Héloïse's fame. I wonder if names have genetic origins. It would be nice if they had, don't you think?

Please everybody, I blush when I get too much attention.

Justin I read a novel by Maurice Denuzière, but it was not the one about Cajuns.

Robby - I doubt if French Can. still think about the deportation of Acadians as it was mentioned in your link.

Justin

You may be interested in the fact that though the population transfers by the Europeans of the Indians in the US to reservations, the Japanese did the same with the indigenous Ainu who were Caucasians.

There are other interesting anomalies but I will save them for when we get to the Far East later on.

Jere

In every case of colonisation the great powers forcibly seized land. Here in New Zealand we did not banish the Maori to special reservations as happened in America and Australia. However that is not to say that great injustice did not occur throughout my homeland. I have great sympathy for indigenous rights. How arrogant we were.

Carolyn

Many people do not know of the transfer of whole Inuit/Aleut peoples from their lands around the Bering Sea to southeastern Alaska during WWII, much to the protests of the Inuit/Aleut, who fought the upheavel and tried to use legal methods against the American military who ordered it. It was completly un-necessary and most detrimental to the native peoples who had never lived in a wet climate such as southeast Alaska. Their culture was totally smashed. And meanwhile, their sons were drafted into the US military.

And of course, the transfer of the Japanese Americans, especially of the Pacific Northwest. I had friends in those camps during WWII. I also was a Red Cross worker at the Port of Embarkation in Portland, OR when THEIR sons were shipped overseas in such outfits as the 441st.

Back to Babylonia

Ellen; What were the Neisei doing at Port of Embarcation, Portland? The 441st and other Regiments went to Europe not the Pacific Theatre.If that's true, and I don't doubt what you are saying, then I have learned something new. By the way, those boys in the 441st really showed FDR,the Army, and the country where their loyalties lay. They were an outstanding outfit. Most of those boys came from California and as a result they are in our VFW and our Legion posts here in CA. and I am proud to stand beside them. I did not know about the Inuits and the Aleuts. If they were the Aleutian Islanders at Attu,and Kiska. I can understand some of the problem. But certainly not all of it. They don't tell privates everything. Back to Babylonia.

M. Denuziere has recently written a sequel to his latest novel about Helvetica. I am unable to learn it's title or anything about the work here in the States. I just know that a sequel exists. Perhaps from your side of the border information may be more readilly available. I had a bookstore in LA that was devoted to French literature but it folded last summer and left us without recource.By the way, where does one find accents on these modern gadgets.

There are mentions of forcible transfer of people but I am thinking on the manipulated transfer of large groups of people especially during the 1950s through the 1980s as large cooperations opened new sites and families were separated from their extended families in the name of job security. Most of really our generation, were very cognizant of hanging onto a good job after having seen our fathers experience during the depression and we still carried a sense of loyalty to the company and so we went or as they said, IBM for "I've been moved."

Typical of the many that chose to move from one land to another and regardless of many visits "back home" our children did not have the constant exposure therefore, do not carry on with so many of the traditions we celebrated as children when we were in the midst of these large many generation families. The difference is the chose was job or no job and so the move was a manipulated Diaspora.

If you were having trouble getting into Senior Net, relax. All of us had the same problem.
As the old expression goes: "Now where were we before we were so rudely interrupted?"
Robby

Now as you say, Justin, let's "get back to Babylonia." To help us all keep our thoughts organized, please realize that we are currently discussing an "introduction" that Durant is giving us about Babylonia. Upon that completion, he will do what he has been doing with each Civilization, i.e. following what he calls (see Heading above) the Four Elements of Civilization -- Economic Provision, Political Organization, Moral Traditions, and The Pursuit of Knowledge and the Arts.

We have a bit more of his Introduction to Babylonia to examine and then will go on to the first Element.

Robby

Durant continues:--

"Wealth produces ease as well as art. It softens a people to the ways of luxury and peace, and invites invasion from stronger arms and hungrier mouths. On the eastern boundary of the new state a hardy tribe of mountaineers, the Kassites, looked with envy upon the riches of Babylon.

"Eight years after Hammurabi's death they inundated the land, plundered it, retreated, raided it again and again, and finally settled down in it as conquerors and rulers. This is the normal origin of aristocracies. They were of non-Semitic stock, perhaps descendants of European immigrants from neolithic days. Their victory over Semitic Babylon represented one more swing of the racial pendulum in western Asia."

A number of items interest me here.

1 - A Civilization of luxury and peace invites invasion.
2 - The term "semitic" is becoming more prevalent as we move through civilizations and the term does not refer to the Jewish people. The Babylonians were Semitic and the Kassites were not.
3 - Durant tells us that aristocracies normally come from the conquerors.
4 - This is the first mention of invasion by non-Asians.

Lots of meat here!

Robby

I'm sorry to digress one more time, but I'm late reading about this - we first heard about the Aleut internments in 1998 at the Univ. of AK museum in Fairbanks. Japanese had come ashore on one of the islands, and the US troops drove them out and/or captured them. The US troops occupied the Aleut towns, and eventually removed all the natives and sent them to internment camps. As the US troops pulled out, they looted the homes, shops, and churches. Not a pretty piece of history. This has just recently been publicized - as part of the settlement and reparations made to the Aleut citizens by the US Government. Again, back to Babylonia... Z

Its hard to think that Baylonia had ITS ancient roots that it turned to for study. As Durant points out, "the Babylonian language was a Semitic development of the old tongues of Sumeria and Akkad".

Babylonians had to create dictionaries and grammer to translate the old "classic" and sacerdotal tongue of Sumeria. They used clay rather than payrus, and the wedged piece of wood that was used to create cuneiforms rather than the brush. Was it 300 symbols that created the Baylonian written text? And it took years of study by young people to learn. And years to decifer in modern times by such people as Henry Rowlinson. Writing, that human desire to develop a system of permanent communication.

The Inuits of Canada now live on their very own territory called Nunavut in Northern Canada. Something to be proud of. Their written language, Inuktitut was derived from the shorthand technique named 'Pitman'. It is shorthand derived from sounds and it has signs for every sound instead of the regular alphabet. I will try and give a link, but I don't know if it will work. They now have their say in parliament just like any province. The invadors giving land back to natives? I don't know if it ever happened before in history.

http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/americas/9904/01/canada.nunavut.01/

Yes, Barbara. I moved my family three no four times for job reasons. The children missed the connection to a large extended family. One of my girls travels back every year to our origins to recapture some of that connection. But my other daughters only sense what they have missed. There are thousands like us who were displaced from our families. Those remaining at our origin are getting fewer and fewer each year as they also succumb to the "I've Been Moved" syndrome. We are even now, at this stage, a dispersed family.Where do we put the bodies when it is all over for us - this coast or that coast? Even that decision won't end the dispersal.We are the new Diaspora. Back to Babylonia. Zwy . I appreciate having that knowledge about the aleuts. What a shameful conclusion to a really screwed up invasion. Some of the guys who were in the Kiska thing came to my outfit as replacements and told me that we invaded on two sides of the island. The japs pulled out and our guys came up over a mountain and began firing at each other.Then they topped it off by moving the aleuts.You might want to question the issue of Looting Aleut stores.In most of the invasions I participated in where we came in contact with indigenous people the troops had so much more food, clothing , and other supplies that we supplied the natives in abundance. Ex-Garrison troops have told me that within a few days natives began appearing in Marine utilities and chewing on Baby Ruths.Assault troops always left tons of supplies on the beaches. Who used those supplies is anybody's guess.

The Kassites appear to have had similar characteristics to the Hyksos. They ruled as an invading force without doing anything of significance for four centuries. Later reading may change my view but now I see two Babylons- The first with Hammurabi and Nebukadrezor and the second many centuries later after the expulsion of the Kassites. The Hamurrabi period was one of wealth but not one of weakness. Where did the Kassites come from? Durant says they may be descended from European neolithic immigrants. Where did they come from? Did I miss something. Could they have come via the Med into African ports and then across to the middle east.That seems pretty far fetched. Of course, because they are non-semitic does not mean they did not come from Asia somewhere. After all the Sumerians were non-semitic.

Justin asks where the Kassites came from. Click HERE for the answer.

Robby

Durant tells us:--"The Kassites were expelled after almost six centuries of rule as disruptive as the similar sway of the Hyksos in Egypt. The disorder continued for four hundred years more under obscure Babylonia rulers."

Sometimes it might help us to just pause and realize the length of time mentioned in just a phrase. It seems as if the Babylonians threw the Kassites out a short time after the Kassites arrived but it took them 600 years to do so! Almost three times the length of the period in which the United States has been in existence. Then after the Kassites were gone, Babylon suffered for 400 years more under some not well known rulers. So WHAM!! A thousand years has just gone by!!

Robby

ROBBY Specially for you from a humble lurker. I find your discussion so interesting and want to thank all the posters. You enhance my life and broaden my horizons. I sneak in whenever I have a spare moment but haven't posted because I am so waaaay behind.
So far, I am only just at Egypt. You brought back memories when you asked who had seen Egyption treasures recently.

Well its many a year since we went to Cairo en route to Netherlands but I can clearly remember riding a camel (with huge yellow teeth) to Tutankamen's pyramid tomb and, after dismounting at the pyramids we climbed up inside one. Due to the fact that we had to hunch over and we were in a line of people as we climbed up into the room at the top, I felt a bit claustrophobic. The guides proudly pointed out that we were able to breath quite well. Apart from lots of sweating people, it wasn't that stuffy due to ventilation built in when the pyramid was built.
We also visited the Syhinx (sp), don't know why but it seemed smaller than I had imagined it. Maybe its size had been dwarfed by the huge pyramids and we had just come from watching people (some from our ship) climbing up the sides, quite an achievement as the blocks are huge.

We then went in a bus to the Museum where Tutankamen's treasures were on display. My spelling is under threat here and I haven't time for a dictionary, sorry. We saw all three sarcophagi that his mummy would have been encased in and many other mumified treasures. Lots of black and gold glittering and all under armed guard.

Later, back in Cairo I bought some Lotus Blossom perfume concentrate which was promoted as having been the perfume used in the tomb.

This was the first time (but hasn't been the last) I had seem an 'armed' guard and didn't appreciate machine guns being pointed in my direction. In fact, later we visited a Mosque and other buildings and were told not to look behind us at the military installation as we heard muessin calling faithful to prayer. We were given an overview of their religion which sounded surprisingly like the Christian religion. We were shown slits in harem walls. The guards told us that there were guns trained on our backs all the time, not a relaxing feeling. Later wondered if they were kidding but then again remember they were very twitchy re security during our whole visit.

About 15 years later our family were in Europe campervanning and in Rome we visited the Vatican Museum. There I realised that our 10 year old son had really been taking in the information he had been reading in an encyclopaedia about archeology. He had lots to say but I mainly remember the mumified cats, of huge importance to the Egyptians in those times.

Recently I was fortunately to meet some of you, including ROBBY, at the Bash in PA. On the way home we visited Las Vegas and we were intrigued to find an Egyptian casino there with a sort of sanitised version of monuments we had seen in Egypt. There weren't any stinking, flea ridden camels and the air wasn't perfumed by the tanneries or lotus blossom but if you can't make it to Egypt, there is an alternative VBG

Enough from me but know each and every one of you that I am thoroughly enjoying my forays into the 'Civilization' folder and I learn so much from you all as you discuss Durrant and ROBBY's quotes and insightful remarks, thank you all

Mary, it's so good to have you cease lurking and to come out where we can all read your comments. I am hopeful that you will continue to do the same. Having met Mary personally (as she says) and knowing her voice and sense of humor, I could just hear her saying "stinking flea-ridden camels!!"

Mary, you don't have to read all the posts about Egypt before joining us in Babylonia. Read about Egypt at your leisure but, in the meantime, follow regularly the GREEN quotes above plus Durant's remarks about Babylonia that I give, and you will be right along with us.

Robby

Mary:

Thank you for your post. I am currently reading Palace Walk by Naguib Mahmouz, a fascinating novel about people and culture in Cairo, first published in Arabic in 1956. Some of what you posted goes right along with what I am reading right now.

I read that the origin of the Kassites is believed to be in the Zagros Mountains in what is now Iran, just as the article to which Robby linked says. I also read that it is suggested that the Kassites were descendants of immigrants to that area in the Neolithic era from what is now Europe.

Mal

How's this for a sample of humility? Nebuchadrezzar II's prayer of petition to the god Marduk:--

"As my precious life do I love thy sublime appearance! Outside of my city Babylon, I have not selected among all settlements any dwelling.

"At thy command, O merciful Marduk, may the house that I have built endure forever. May I be satiated with its splendor, attain old age therein -- with abundant offspring -- and receive therein tribute of the kings of all regions -- from all mankind."

Somehow it reminds me of a child's letter to Santa Claus.

According to Durant, "he lived almost up to his hopes, for though illiterate and not unquestionably sane, he became the most powerful ruler of his time in the Near East, and the greatest warrior, statesman and builder in all the succession of Babylonian kings after Hammurabi himself.

"When Egypt conspired with Assyria to reduce Babylonia to vassalage again, Nebuchadrezzar met the Egyptian hosts at Carehemish (on the upper reaches of the Euphrates), and almost annihilated them. Palestine and Syria then fell easily under his sway, and Babylonian merchants controlled all the trade that flowed across western Asia from the Persian gulf to the Mediterranean Sea."

Robby

Were Nebuchadrezzar's prayers answered? Read all about his CITADEL and the many luxuries found in it.

Robby

Mary de Boer - So nice to see you. I think you are the first woman I know who has actually been inside the Pyramids and close to the Sphinks. I read about those when I was a child in Nat. Geo. that my uncle used to bring home. How fascinating it must have been for you and your son too.

As I have met you also I can hear your NZ English and I hope you will stay with us. You can't be further behind than I am and THEY put up with me.....Eloïse

The link below will take you to a site about the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. If you scroll down you'll see a diagram which shows how water was brought up to them.

Hanging Gardens of Babylon

Thank you for that Link with the beautiful illustration, Mal.

Comments, anyone?

Robby

Is that a round boat moving along on the Euphrates River in front of the Hanging Gardens, complete with a square sail, (newer technology) rather than a dhow sail? It has oars which indicate that it must be a river vessel with a crew of slaves to row, not an ocean going vessel. Very interesting site Mal.

That is a a very interesting site Mal. Thanks. I have seen drawings on History channel of this in a documentary re: the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World. The Eygptians used that same style water pump and in aarticle I read about the modern Nile they still use that same method to pull water up and irrigate behind the banks of the Nile today. fp

ROBBY - it might be interesting to note that the stories of Marduk are still included in the Persian Now Ruz (New Year)celebrations on March 21st.

MAL - let me join in thanks for the very interesting link about the Hanging Gardens. Many years ago, I listened to a wonderful lecture at a university in Shiraz about the history of the magnificent gardens and how they were supplied with water. The speaker was an Orientalist from Oxford, who added to his comments with very detailed slides (similar to the diagram in the link) about the intricacy of the water system.

Mal; Your link to the gardens very worthwhile.Does anyone know where the stone came from? I am surprised that Herodotus does not mention the site. Perhaps that great tourist Suetonius mentions it. I will look tonight. However, I think he was concerned only with Roman provinces. There must be other sources than Herodotus. There must have been a great many water engines to raise the water to the top and a great many stone reservoirs to distribute it at each level. Human power could raise only a limited number of buckets to a limited height. Not the full height of the gardens.The tipping process must have been very difficult. The bucket had to be lifted away from the line of support before tipping.A jerk line on each bucket would have helped enormously.

Great site Mal - packed with other facinating information - I'm seeing a boost in a civilization that embarks on a great enterprise that brings the best technical minds together - I am remembering the boost we experienced with all sorts of advantages that spun off the exploration of space - down to the very pots and pans some of us cook in that are covered in teflon.

There isn't as much information here explaining but I can't help wonder how the building of these gardens tranlated into better tools, methods or knowledge of plants or, what were the benefits to the average individual's lives - how or what advancements developed as a result of the creation of the gardens. Art and imgaination seem to be a catalyst that lead to creative science during the construction process which really does link science and the arts.

Mal – That link was a revelation to me, thank you.

Barbara – It’s interesting you should mention that science and art should go together. During an interview for a series of space documentaries, the question was asked Joel Primack, astrophysicist, what role art had in science and he mentions that artists are essential to science, he said:

“The picture that modern astronomy is creating on the origin, evolution, structure, composition of the universe is both fundamental and surprising, unfamiliar. If people are going to appreciate this particular universe that we live in, it’s going to have to be explained in terms of PICTURES AND STORIES that can appeal to ordinary people. That way people will learn about the universe, the creation throughout history has been through stories and pictures, not through detailed scientific explanation and most people are going to get it through stories and pictures, stories and pictures are made by artists. So I think the most important thing is to have a new marriage between science and art. To have artists become interested again in science in understanding this peculiar universe that we live in and helping everybody else to understand, including the scientists themselves.”

Although science, philosophy and art, are studied and treated separately, as I observe it, it is my belief that they all go together in our understanding of the universe. Without artists, we could never have had the grasp of history as we do now as artists described with pictures, in detail, the intricacies of science. Philosophers describe why the universe develops as it does and why human beings behave the way they do.

Eloïse

Please remember -- we are only in the Introductory statements of Durant about Babylonia -- we have many more details to absorb as we go through his usual four Elements of Civilization.

Regarding the Hanging Gardens -- this thought goes through my mind. Unless I have missed something, throughout Primitive Man and Sumeria, and even most of Ancient Egypt, women were seen as having usually one main purpose -- reproduction -- and were treated as such. Here I see the ruler, Nebuchadrezzar, creating the Gardens in a "mountainous" form because his Queen missed the mountainous terrain of her homeland. I would call this "love." I had not seen this emotion expressed in earlier civilizations.

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

Robby - I disagree. Perhaps love was not outwardly expressed as it became, but how could such a human emotion only surface at such a late date?

Love is an emotion that has always existed, in my opinion, but perhaps not 'mentioned' as you say because, for some reason, men are shy to express it and historians are mostly men. Men are also romantic, but not as willing to admit it as women are. I read before here that it is only because of literature that romantic love surfaced, an emotion that only literature could describe. Before writing was developed, how could love be described? It is not because it was not that it did not exist.

Durant continues:--"Nebuchadrezzar spent the tolls of trade, the tributes of subjects, and the taxes of his people, in beautifying his capital and assuaging the hunger of the priests. He resistd the temptation to be merely a conqueror. He sallied forth occasionally to teach his subjects the virtues of submission, but for the most part he stayed at home, making Babylon the unrivaled capital of the Near East, the largest and most magnificent metropolis of the ancient world.

"Herodotus, who saw Babylon a century and a half later, described it as 'standing in a spacious plain,' surrounded by a wall fifty-six miles in length, so broad that a four-horse chariot could be driven along the top, and enclosing an area of some two hundred square miles." This, of course, brings to mind the Great Wall of China but we will be discussing that in detail when Durant gets to China.

"Through the center of the town ran the palm-fringed Euphrates, busy with commerce and spanned by a handsome bridge. Practically all the better buildings were of brick, for stone was rare in Mesopotamia. The bricks were often faced with enameled tiles of brilliant blue, yellow or white, adorned with animal and other figures in glazed relief, which remain to this day supreme in their kind."

Can you folks think of --

Any city in our time with a river running through it?
Any city with a river that is busy with commerce?
Any city standing in a spacious plain?
Any buildings you know of faced with enameled tiles of blue, yellow, or white?
Can any of you visualize yourself living in Babylon?

Robby

Nebuchadrezzar must have had some special feeling for the wife for whom he built the Hanging Gardens, since he had several other wives. Of course, there are some people who display their power in the construction of majestic buildings. Nebuchadrezzar was one.

He reconstructed the Towel of Babel to a height of 295 feet. It interests me that Durant says "Babel, however, does not mean confusion or babble, as the legent supposes; as used in the word Babylon it meant Gate of God."

Please click below to access a page about the Tower of Babel.

Tower of Babel
Mal

Thank you, Mal, for a Link which not only gives us further text but artists' illustrations which help us to visualize what this "ziggurat" might have looked like.

Robby

For those of you who do not have Durant's Volume, here is what he says about the "Tower of Babel."

"Approaching the city the traveler saw first -- at the crown of a very mountain of masonry -- an immense and lofty ziggurat, rising in seven stages of gleaming enamel to a height of 650 feet, crowned with a shrine containing a massive table of solid gold, and an ornate bed on which, each night, some woman slept to await the pleasure of the god.

"This structure, taller than the pyramids of Egypt, and surpassing in height all but the latest of modern buildings, was probably the 'Tower of Babel' of Hebraic myth, the many-storied audacity of a people who did not know Yahveh, and whom the God of Hosts was supposed to have confounded with a multiplicity of tongues."

Robby

ROBBY - in answer to your questions in #671:

Cities with rivers running through them and heavy with commerce calls to mind two large metropolises on opposite sides of the world: Portland, OR (the Willamette River) and Chongqing, China (the Yangze River).

Cities in a spacious plain: several of the large cities in Southwestern Iran or the American midwest or the Western Province of Xinjiang in China.

Buildings with enameled tiles of blue, yellow and white: Alexandria and Cairo (Egypt); Tunis, Casablanca (North Africa); Isfahan, Shiraz, Tehran (Iran); Islamabad and Peshawar (Pakistan); Granada, Sevilla, Cordoba (Spain); Washington, DC, New York, Boston, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco and almost any other large city where Islamic mosques are located.

Yes, I can imagine living in ancient Babylon. In fact, I would have loved to have lived in that time period. I did research in that area of Southern Iraq and across the border in Iran many years ago. It is a special part of the world with a still very strong sense of ancient history and a respect among the people for the ancient civilizations.

Mahlia, I first thought of Portland, OR (known as Stump Town to us natives) as I was born there, but the city that probably comes to everyone's mind is Paris. It sits on a plain as well and is an international city.

PS I would like to express a thank-you to you for all your interesting posts.

Actually, though it may sound strange, Toledo, Ohio is a seaport. Freighters come to us from all over the world. They get here through the St. Lawrence Seaway and end up on our river, the Maumee.

Linda

Then, of course, there's New York City which has the East River and the Hudson as well a good-sized harbor. That probably doesn't count, though, because it's situated on an island.

My hometown is on the Merrimack River in Massachusetts, which has been a very busy river for a long, long time. It is lined with industrial cities, and empties into the Atlantic at Newburyport, which was a big seaport at one time.

Mal

Have to say rivers in Britain were used for commercial purposes before rail and the motor lorry. Britain also relied a lot on the canal system at one time to carry goods.

As for living in Babylon no I don't think so. As I live on an island and particularly where I live on an isthmus I could not do without the sight of the sea. My son who is in England is very homesick for the sea.

Carolyn

Robby, could you be pointing out in your post that Babylonia had all of the right ingredients for the foundation of early civilization? That those conditions created cities and in turn created civilization? I read a review of a book once that covered "ghost towns of Europe" and it was so surprising to think in those terms. Why do cities die as well as flourish? What is so interesting today is to think of a currently barren landscape that once was a flourishing, vast irrigated plain. Why is it not irrigated today? The Euphrates and the Tigris still flow through the countryside.

Ellen:--What about our own "ghost towns" in the West of our own nation? Towns that at one time had a flourishing civilization and then the "right ingredients" disappeared.

Robby

Here is A PLAN OF CITY OF BABYLON which, to my eyes, looks no different from the plan of any modern city. Look how carefully it is laid out. Notice the neatly laid out blocks. Notice "New Town" on the other side of the river. Note the canal.

At what point can we say that people are no longer "that primitive?"

Robby

Robby, when I think of ghost towns I think of the west too. I LIVE on the edge of a ghost town. Oysterville was once a thriving community with stores, hotels, churches, saloons, canneries, and even a small college. Today, most of it is gone, covered with what Durant calls the jungle that is ever-ready to reclaim all.

I am curious why Iraq has not developed irrigation once again. Perhaps it has to some extent.

Here is another question. What about plumbing in Babylon? Most of us would never think that civilization was partially built on plumbing but it can be an important factor!

We have noticed in the Caravans folder that Afghanistan used to be lush with greenery and trees and due to reasons I don't really understand is now stark and brown and sandy. And it was in 1946, too.

The book Alas, Babylon by Pat Frank comes to mind which brings it right back to today again. It is about people trying to survive a nuclear attack.

As you may have noticed by the change in the GREEN quotes above, we are about to enter Durant's First Element of Civilization - Economic Provision.
Ellen has alluded to the first of the four quotes. That one small remark can be the source of some long deep thoughts regarding exactly what Civilization is. What are your thoughts?

Robby

In Time Magazine, in one of their "turn of the millenium" issues, they did a comparison of the largest cities in the US in 1900 vs the largest cities in 2000. I can't remember all of them but the common characteristic of the cities in 1900 was that they were all on the coast or on major rivers.

Z

Robby post 682 perhaps the people were not primitive. I never have considered people primitive after they had taboos,had permanent towns,had agriculture, had art and metalurgy, and had trade.I don't know if those things fulful Durants four criteria for civilized people but that is what I have used in my reading and so therefor I think of Civilization stretching back more than 10,000 years.

Sacramento has a river running through it with 5 bridges to get from one side of town to the other. It makes for truly awful traffic jams. And we sit in the middle of desert type land. 50 miles up into the foothills we have so many ghost towns I cant count them. There is one spot on the Truckee river coming out of Tahoe that in the gold rush had 40,000 people living in a tent city and now you can find nothing in that area up and down the river except fallen down fireplaces. We school children did our first archeology dig there. Faith

Hi All: All you yankees up there have forgotten New Orleans, a city on the Mississippi River, that is also a large port for seagoing vessels. So too is Baton Rouge, La. also on the river and a port city.

And how about Houston, Tx.? That progressive town took a sleepy bayou and turned it into a ship channel which handles tons of shipping.

It was my intention to be a part of this group since it's beginning but it wasn't possible. Now, I find that that those strong young hands which so easily held "Our Oriental Heritage" decades ago are no longer mine. I cannot Hold that heavy volume and can't find a way to prop it up. I've tried everything. So--if any of you has a clue about here I can find a paper back copy please let me know. I've also tried evey book source I know about but none are available. Senior Net must have cleaned them out!

More later, I hope Hank

There are participants here who do not own the book but know exactly where we are by keeping up with the GREEN quotes in the Heading. In addition to that, comments by other posters tell us where we are.
Regarding paperbacks or cheapies in one form or another, perhaps some of our family here can give us some suggestions.

Robby

I've posted this link before, but Ellen mentioned it, so here it is again.
History of Plumbing: Babylon

A lot of the ghost towns here were deserted after the mineral wealth they relied on to populate the town had been used up. Also climactic conditions often force people out such as droughts. A good example of this is parts of the Australian outback where at one time huge cattle stations flourished and then years of drought destroyed the land and bankrupted the ranchers. If we look at the enduring cities they are all close to major waterways or huge rivers. A stable water supply is very important to human survival.

Carolyn

Is anyone else here having the same experience as I, i.e. the more I read about civilizations, the less significant I, as an individual, feel?

Robby

Mary W.-- You can buy bookholders in the stores. My wife uses one for heavy cook books. We have one for the dictionary.They are generally made of plastic. A carpenter can put together a custom holder for you to carry Durant and to bring it up close for reading and page turning. I have made one that I use successfully.

Robby: Actually, I have felt more significant since becoming aware of how advanced ancient civilizations have been. I think I've contributed to this current civilization and I now realize how difficult it is to do something that has not been done before.

I sit at the dining room table with the book on the table. That works for me.

Linda

I've been reading Hamurrabi's laws. Some of these rules apply today but in modified form. Consider the Trial by ordeal. If the one acused was not protected by the gods, he lost and his acuser took over his property. On the other hand, if the acused is found to be protected by the gods, the acused takes the property of the acuser. In civil litigation today the loser pays court costs. That makes one be damn certain before suing today. Consider also the absence of primogeniture. All the sons inherit. Today all the sons as well as all the daughters inherit. The problem of passing on the crown was solved by allowing the king to choose which son would inherit. Henry ll had that privilege but QE does not. The rule I liked which has not been adopted by moderns is that of recompense. When a city fails to capture a brigand, it has failed to do it's duty and must then pay the victim his loss as given in itemized statement before the gods. Todays police would not be so blasee about theft if that were the rule.

Justin:--Some very good points regarding Hammurabi's Code. As soon as we complete discussing the first Element, "Economic Provision," Durant will undoubtedly have much to say about Law under the second Element, "Governmental Organization."

Robby

Durant tells us about the economy of Babylonia:--

"Most of the soil was tilled by tenants or by slaves -- some of it by peasant proprietors. In the earlier centuries the ground was broken up with stone hoes, as in neolithic tillage. A seal dating some 1400 B.C. is our earliest representation of the plough in Babylonia. Probably this ancient and honorable tool had already a long history behind it in the Land Between the Rivers. Yet it was modern enough, for though it was drawn by oxen in the manner of our fathers, it had, attached to the plough, as in Sumeria, a tube through which the seed was sown in the manner of our children.

"The waters of the rising rivers were not allowed to flood the land as in Egypt. On the contrary, every farm was protected from the inundation by ridges of earth, some of which can still be seen today. The overflow was guided into a complex network of canals, or stored into reservoirs, from which it was sluiced into the fields as needed, or raised over the ridges by shadufs (buckets lifted and lowered on a pivoted and revolving pole.)

"Nebuchadrezzar distingished his reign by building many canals, and gathering the surplus waters of the overflow into a reservoir, one hundred and forty miles in circumference, which nourished by its outlets vast areas of land. Ruins of these canals can be seen in Mesopotamia today, and -- as if further to bind the quick and the dead -- the primitive shaduf is still in use in the valleys of the Euphrates and the Loire."

To me, this places Babylonia ahead of Egypt in terms of "civilization." Egypt just let the river overflow and let the river do the whole job of fertilizing.

Robby

Powerful families in Babylonia were the money lenders. That tradition has persisted. In the 15c. the Medici assumed that function. Jewish families in Europe assumed that role because the Roman Catholic Church frowned on usury. The Rothchilds in recent times have assumed the role.While the functions of a commercial bank did not come about until the Indusrial Revolution there is evidence to show that the practices of safe keeping and savings banking flourished in the temples of Babylon as early as 2000 BCE. Clay tablets discovered in the ruins of Babylonia indicate that credit instruments in the form of promises and orders to pay gold were used in the ninth century BCE much as promissory notes and bank checks are used to day.

Here are some DIAGRAMS OF WATER RAISING MACHINES starting with the Shaduf.

Robby

Again - to help us remain oriented, a MAP to show us where Babylonia was located in relation to Egypt. On this map one can see the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers running almost parallel to each other and Babylonia being the Land Between the Rivers.

Robby

http://www.adiyamanli.org/ataturk_dam.htm

I became so fascinated with the water machines that I started looking up sites regarding the two rivers Tigres and Euphrates and found so much interesting modern information about the dams, the ataturk in particular. There seems to be a great political statement being made in Turkey, and Syria, and Iraq regarding their water. And it seems that the United States is accused of trying to stop the dam at the lower or last part of the rivers that is in Iraq. The site I put up is one of many but it had wonderful maps of the area and the dams. Faith

That was a most informative link, Mal. -Thank you. You find such interesting sites!

I keep wondering too, what did Babylonians use for fuel to fire so many glazed tiles?

The photographs of the Ataturk Dam look like shots of eastern Washington state with its series of dams on the Columbia River. Some of the farms and ranches in that region of Washington are vast and can have thousands of acres under irrigation. The systems of river/water management sound somewhat alike between ancient Babylonia and modern Washington. The state (or federal government) takes care of the water by building dams and setting up and maintaining irrigation systems and the private sector gets the land and raises the crops and livestock. That's where so many french fries come from for the fast food outlets. I wonder what is raised on the lands watered by Ataturk Dam today?

I noticed that Durant used the term "corn" but I suspect that he is using the English term for wheat. Corn is the term that Europeans used when they first encountered maize and many still use "corn" for "wheat".

The Egyptians had a different situation to deal with on the Nile rather than what the Babylonians had with their rivers, different especially in working with flooding. Egyptians did manage to get three good crops a year from the land by just letting the river flood inundate the land and dump its load of silt.

Ellen:--This Link about FUEL may answer your question about what the people in Mesopotamia used.

Robby

Durant continues:--

"So watered, the land produced a variety of cereals and pulses, great orchards of fruits and nuts, and above all, the date. From this beneficient connection of sun and soil the Babylonians made bread, honey, cake and other delicacies. They mixed it with meal to make one of their most sustaining goods. To encourage its reproducton they shook the flowers of the male palm over those of the female.

"From Mesopotamia the grape and the olive were introduced into Greece and Rome and thence into western Europe. From nearby Persia came the peach. From the shores of the Black Sea Lucullus brought the cherry-tree to Rome. Milk, so rare in the distant Orient, now became one of the staple foods of the Near East. Meat was rare and costly, but fish from the great streams found their way into the poorest mouths.

"And in the evening, when the peasant might have been disturbed by thoughts on life and death, he quieted memory and anticipation with wine pessed from the date, or beer brewed from the corn."

It is much easier to see now why Durant considers Economic Provision one of the major Elements of Civilization. What has just been described is certainly not primitive, at least in my opinion. This passage also helps me to understand what Durant meant by an "Oriental heritage".

Shall we have some fun? Look into your kitchen. List here some items you find that you now realize have Oriental origin.

Robby

Why do cities become ghost town?

Their geographical location, latitude, longitude, WATER SUPPLY, arable land, capacity for a growing economy and political situation. Babylonia was ideally located and it prospered and died.

The water supply had to come regularly and in enough quantity to satisfy the needs of the city. I am wondering if the water supply that irrigated the Hanging Garders of Babylonia was not too ambitious considering the hot dry climate in that area and because of its unnatural irrigation system requiring immense engineering skills and human effort was not the cause of Babylonia’s demise.

Water is the first element making a city prosper and if the supply fails, the city cannot survive.

In my kitchen Robby I think the most important element is the water tap.

Éloïse

From what we have seen so far, do you folks agree or disagree with the GREEN quote which begins "Babylon was essentially...?"

Robby

If I listed everything on my spice shelves, which are liberally filled with bottles and jars of spices and herbs, not the least of which is saffron, most of which my New York son sent to me, I'd fill up two message forms easily. Also of Oriental origin are some dishes and various decorations I have in my kitchen. I also have incense around which came from the Near, Middle and Far East, fabrics, and I don't remember what else.

Yes, Babylon was a commercial civilization. Durant mentions the fact that wheeled carts drawn by "patient asses" were used for local transport, and that records show the horse was used for this about 2100 BCE. He also says that "caravans brought to the bazaars and shops of Babylon the products of half the world." Nebuchadrezzar made the Euphrates navigable "from the Persian Gulf to Thapsacus". Vessels were large, and there were hazards like reefs with other hazards like robbers and heavy fees for the use of roads on the land. Commerce in those days wasn't easy.

What makes cities and towns collapse? One reason I can think of is the placing of all a town's interests into one industry. My hometown in Massachusetts was a leather and shoe town which thrived until the end of World War II. After that the owners of these "shoe shops", as they were called, moved their businesses South where labor was cheaper, and the small city in which I grew up nearly went under. This happened up and down the Merrimack River, which I mentioned before. Lawrence, the next city to Haverhill, had fabric mills. When they moved South, that city and Lowell, too, had terrible problems with people out of work and no money to rejuvenate those cities.

Three of my nieces own homes in Lubec, Maine. That's way up the coast. Lubec was one of the biggest centers of the sardine fishing and canning industry. The waters are fished out, and Lubec right now is in serious trouble. Diversify, diversify seems to be the answer to problems like this.

Mal

We have become "experts" in our knowledge of Ancient Egypt, not to mention Sumeria and Primitve Man. We are now able to start making comparisons.

As we continue to examine Babylonia, how do you see it alongside Egypt? What were the strengths and frailities of each? Which one, in your opinion, left the greatest impression upon later civilizations? Which one was the most warlike? Which one was the most commcrcial? What was the effect of religion on each? In which civilization would you prefer to live? Why?

Robby

Below is a link to a most interesting article about Babylonia. There is mention of the Ishtar Gate which was built of "high-fire, kiln-baked bricks with a striking blue glaze". There is also a description of kilns used in those days to fire bricks used in Babylonian construction.

The Final Kingdom

Those are difficult questions, Robby. To me, Babylon seems to have been far more worldly, sophisticated and secular than Egypt. Its monuments were dedicated to the living, not the dead. It's interesting that Egypt's mammoth tombs have survived, and the Hanging Gardens and such have not.

The focus of Babylon seemed to be much less on religion than it was on worldly things like commerce and trade. Priests, gods and temples apparently were not first priorities in Babylon in the way they were in Egypt. I haven't yet read in Durant's Our Oriental Heritage about Babylonian literature, but based on what I've said above, it would not surprise me if that was more worldly, too.

Where would I choose to live? Well, you know what they say about New York City: It's a nice place to visit. Perhaps I'd feel that way about Babylonia, too.

(Of course, I'd give my eye teeth to be able to live in Manhattan for a while.)

Mal

Much of the material presented in the Link given by Mal is related to comments in the Bible and related beliefs, but the information about the kilns used to bake bricks helps us to understand even more the degree of Babylonian civilization.

Robby

Robby:

I apologize for the religious tone of the article to which I linked, but it was the best site I could find about Babylonian ceramics and the making of bricks.

Mal

"It was essentially a commercial civilization. Most of the documents that have come down from it are of a business character - sales, loans, contracts, partnerships, commissions, exchange, bequests, agreements, promissory notes, and the like. We find in these tables abundant evidence of wealth, and a certain materialistic spirit that managed, like some later civilizations, to reconcile piety with greed.
"We see in the literature many signs of a busy and prosperous life, but we find also, at every turn, reminders of the slavery that underlies all cultures. The most interesting contracts of sale from the age of Nebuchadrezzar are those that have to do the slaves. They were recruited from captives taken in battle, from slave-raids carried out upon foreign states by maurauding Bedoins, and from the reproductive enthusiasm of the slaves themselves. Their value ranged from $20 to $65 for a woman, and from $50 to $100 for a man. Most of the physical work in the towns was done by them, including nearly all of the personal service.

Female slaves were completely at the mercy of their purchaser, and were expected to provide him with bed as well as board. It was understood that he would breed through them a copious supply of children, and those slaves who were not so treated felt themselves neglected and dishonored. The slaves and all his belongings were his master's property. He might be sold or pledged for debt. He might be put to death if his master thought him less lucrative alive than dead. If he ran away no one could legally harbor him, and a reward was fixed for his capture."

I'm sure that the obvious comparison with recent civilizations comes to the mind of many participants here. Any comments?

Robby

"It was essentially a commercial civilization.

I believe that you will find almost every island nation is such out of sheer economic survival. Great Britain, Japan, Hong Kong to mention only a few. It is when the island becomes much larger does the analogy break down Australia, Phillippines, and then the continents.

Jere

Jere:--Are you comparing Babylonia with an "island" nation?

Robby

When irrigated over long periods of time(100's of years) land becomes salinated in many places on earth. It did in many of these Eastern irrigated settlements. I wonder how much that could have contributed to the gradual downfall of certain large settlements. We know the vegitation is very different now than 3000 years ago in these countries. The study of the biology of these settlements would be a fascinating off shoot of what we are talking about, the decline of a civilization which is then replaced by another. faith

I would say that studying the reason for the decline of a civilization is definitely in sync with Durant's theme. I will continue following Durant's comments (we are now on page 229) but if biology is not too far afield (and we don't get too technical), then let's learn everything we can about those Near East civilizations.

Robby

"Economic conditions are important. A people may possess ordered institutions, a lofty moral code, and even a flair for the minor forms of art, and yet if it depends for its existence upon the precarious fortunes of the chase, it will never quite pass from barbarism to civilization."

- - - Will Durant

I am here lurking faithfully, Robby, as promised. Having read the heading and a few posts, I feel as if I've been transported in time to my Freshman [High School] World History class! About which I recall very little, I'm afraid... history is not my forte, I fear.

I am reading every page with great interest, but I don't have time to post right now. Be sure that I appreciate all your posts.

With your permission, I will use them to teach English to my eager French student who is as happy as I am to learn about the Story of Civilization with all of us.

++++++++ HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYBODY +++++++

Yes, Robby, I was.

I do not think that a "nation" needs to be surrounded by water to become an island nation.Surrounded by primitive and warlike tribes, isolated in other ways, be insular and the efeect is the same.

Jere

Jeryn:--This is not a history class. This is a group of Senior Netters trying to solve a mystery -- where did we come from and where are we going? We are just a group of folks sitting in a living room discussing it and trying to figure it out.

Robby

ROBBY - I've got half the riddle figured out: I know where I came from, but where I'm going is STILL a mystery.

According to Durant, the Babylonians used the Euphrates, "which Nebuchadrezzar had made navigable from the Persian Gulf to Thapsacus" for shipping goods around, with the least chance of being captured by pirates, always on the prowl on the open Indian Ocean or Mediterranean. The roads were difficult to travel with robbers and toll-fees. I wonder what kind of profit they expected from a voyage or shipment. I thought his remarks true for today as well as for Baylonia. "The merchants reimbersed themselves for such losses by restricting their honesty to the necessities of each situation." In my mind I can just hear that Euphrates dockside conversation. "What do you mean, those melons are rotten? So we got held up at Thapsacus for a week by those crooks called port authorities and it got hot. And the master wouldn't buy a new tarp to keep the sun off of them, said tarps were too expensive in Thapsacus with that new temple tax. So the melons are a little soft around the edges. nothing serious!" thinking all the while "they're not for eating, they're for buying and selling"

Being in business was tough in those days. Unknown dangers everywhere. I'm curious about their expected profits.

The priests ran Egypt for fun and profit. Commerce ran Babylonia through priests and wealthy families who facilitated with money and banking of a sort.The priests taught mathematics to the young. The Math that was developed was based on a sexagesimal system of calculating by sixties. Later a duodecimal system developed on a base of twelve. Three numbers were used 1,10,100. Tables helped with caculation. This may seem strange but we use hexadecimal, octal, binary, and decimal systems to program our computers. Babylonians were able to multiply and divide and work with a limited number of fractions. Pi was also approximated. Not as closely as we use it, but none the less useful, and it shows a knowledge of the circle.

I suspect the system of business in babylonia depended upon entrepreneurs who expected a profit in return for the risks they ran. The priests and the rulers as well as local bandits and toll collectors took their share and in spite of these deductions there was enough left over to keep the transporters and sellers in business. This sounds like an early form of capitalism which the U.S. seems to have trouble exporting to third world countries today. I suppose one must account for the excesses of the system. Why does capitalism succeed so well in the U.S. and not in third world areas? Probably because democracy tends to contain the excesses of capitalism in the U.S. and third world countries do not have competent democratic governments.On the other hand, there was little democracy in Babylonia where the system worked, however, crudely. The issue is of course complicated by the presence of slaves.

Ellen tell us:--"Being in business was tough in those days. Unknown dangers everywhere."----The more things change, the more they remain the same. (Have I said that here before?)

Justin says:---"I suspect the system of business in Babylonia depended upon entrepreneurs who expected a profit in return for the risks they ran. The priests and the rulers as well as local bandits and toll collectors took their share."----Well, the more things change, the more --- (Oh, did I say that before?)

Robby

As we move into the Second Element of Civilization, Political Organization (see GREEN quotes above), Durant tells us:--

"Such a society as Babylonia never dreamed of democracy. Its economic character necessitated a monarch supported by commercial wealth or feudal privilege, and protected by the judicious distribution of legal violence. A landed aristocracy, gradually displaced by a commercial plutocracy, helped to maintain social control, and served as intermediary between people and king. The latter passed his throne down to any son of his choosing, with the result that every son considered himself heir apparent, formed a clique of supporters, and, as like as not, raised a war of succession if his hopes were unfulfilled.

"Within the limits of this arbitrary rule, the government was carried on by central and local lords or administrators appointed by the king. These were advised and checked by provincial or municipal assemblies of elders or notables, who managed to maintain a proud measure of local self-government."

Interesting phrases here -- "legal violence," "feudal privilege," "commercial plutocracy," and "war of succession." Any thoughts about these? And what about "advised and checked?" Is that a more ancient form of "checks and balances?"

Your comments, please?

Robby

Woowee, it's New Year's Eve! I don't know what you all have planned, but I just posted in the WREX discussion that I'm going out dancing at the Tuxedo Hotel with Prince Charming tonight. I'll be wearing my baby blue ball gown that's studded with diamonds and has ermine at the neckline. First we're stopping at the Jolly Jumpup Joint for burgers and fries. I'll probably get ketchup all over my beautiful dress. I always do.

I hate to say it, since my family and I were treated very, very well by a large corporation for quite a long time, but what you posted, Robby, immediately reminded me of how corporations are run here in the United States.

That's the most profound thought I've had today. My mind is on the festivities ahead for me tonight.

Happy New Year All You Civilized People!!!!Mal

Justin, is that where the zero came from? The Arabs brought the concept of the zero to Europe did they not? Can you imagine keeping books without the zero?

What, you'd rather talk numbers than have fun this final day of 2001??

Justin, I thought computers ran on the binary system. Guess I'll have to do some investigating and find out about the other systems you mentioned.

It seems logical to me that Babylonian judges were priests and trials were held in temples. Priests were set apart from ordinary society. Presumably they were better educated and objective, the human voice of the gods from which all law came.

Isn't our present day system something like this? Judges are placed on a higher pedestal than the ordinary guy walking down the street. They are well-educated. They are dressed in robes similar to what religious leaders wear. Many courthouses look like temples, don't they?

Mal

A & E is going to do a history of all of the Pharaohs of Egypt between the hours of eight and twelve
( 8 to 12 ) tomorrow night, Tuesday, January 1, 2002 Eastern Standard Time.

Yes, Ellen, I can imagine keeping books without using a zero if I was able to maintain a profit.

Jere

Robby says:"......"----Well, the more things change, the more --- (Oh, did I say that before?)......"

The trough remains the same, only the bulls are changing.

A Happy New Year To All......when you drink, don't drive:>)

Mal, thanks for the Info, A&E.

Hammurabi's Law No. 3:--"If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elder, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital offense charged, be put to death."

FAIR ENOUGH?

Robby

No!

"My object all sublime
I shall achieve in time—
To let the punishment fit the crime—
The punishment fit the crime;
And make each prisoner pent
Unwillingly represent
A source of innocent merriment!
Of innocent merriment!"

From The Mikado by Gilbert and Sullivan.
Mal

Beautiful, Mal!! "Lex Talionis" in rhyme.

Durant describes Lex Talionis as "the law of equivalent retaliation. If a man knocked out an eye or a tooth, or broke a limb, of a patrician, precisely the same was to be done to him. If a house collapsed and killed the purchaser, the architect or builder must die. If the accident killed the buyer's son, the son of the architect or builder must die. If a man struck a girl and killed her not he but his daughter must suffer the penalty of death.

"Gradually these pnishments in kind were replaced by awards of demages. A payment of money was permitted as an alternative to the physical retaliation, and later the fine became the sole punishment."

Any problem with this?

Robby

I was hoping someone would come in and comment on my musical post before I came back. Since no one has, please permit me to say this. (Robby, you sneaked in when I wasn't looking.)

William Gilbert was not far off base when he wrote what he did about having punishment fit the crime. What Hammurabi's law suggests is death for an unproven deed.

Is that right, and has civilization advanced beyond that? I wonder.

"Innocent merriment", you say. What does that have to do with anything?

Is there not a sense of relief, if not glee, when a convicted killer is executed in the United States? There's final closure worthy of celebration not unlike what we saw on TV in the behavior of some Talibans when it was announced that thousands of the "infidels" had died in the World Trade Center tragedy.

Have some executions of alleged criminals been treated with the same kind of glee in the 20th and early 21st centuries. I would say they had. What separates us from people in Hammurabi's time? Are we today that kind of barbarian?

How did you feel when Timothy McVeigh met an easy death? First an injection which put him to sleep, then an injection which killed him. Did you once think that life imprisonment in solitary confinement is far worse a punishment than that type of execution?

"Let the punishment fit the crime," Gilbert says. I agree.

Mal

Mal; Hexadecimal and Octal are intermediate assembler languages which are easier to write in code than binary. We usually incorporate a translator to convert from Hex into Binary. Hex and binary are considered machine languages, Hex being one step up from Binary. Can you imagine a programmer coder writing 10001101 in binary bits to make up a byte of character. We have since the very earliest days when machines were hand wired sought methods of raising language to higher and higher levels so that one could program in the familiar.Fortran was among the first of these advanced languages. Translators are used to reduce the higher language to machine level where binary is applied.

Mal, was McVeigh's "easy" death meant to be a punishment? Or was it meant to remove him from society?

Robby

Removal from society is not enough punishment for the crime McVeigh committed in my book, Robby.

Mal

Hammurabi Law No. 5 -- "If a judge try a case, reach a decision, and present his judgment in writing -- if later error shall appear in his decision, and it be through his own fault, then he shall pay twelve times the fine set by him in the case -- and he shall be publicly removed from the judge's bench, and never again shall he sit there to render judgement."

Ellen: Yes. My recollection is that zero came from the arabs as did other digital numbers. We may be looking at the very ealiest use of the zero here in Babylonia although I am not absolutely certain it was not found in Sumeria as well. Amazing how much the arabs have given us. I wonder how much more we would have had earlier if Ceasar had not burned the Alexandrian Library.

I assume that no judge in his right mind committed his judgements to clay. When the judicial system makes an error today, how does it pay? How are victims of error compensated? Does the DNA released death row prisoner gain anything other than his life.I admit, that's a pretty big thing but the victim ought to be compensated in some scalable way.

One of my goals in life was to reach 2000. Now my goal is to reach 2020. My Dad reached 97 and I am trying get one up on him. HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ONE AND ALL.

Click HERE for three arguments against the death punishment.

Robby

I quoted Hammurabi's Law #5 in an earlier post which I don't have patience enough to find right now as I prepare to go out on my dancing date to the Tuxedo Hotel with Prince Charming. As response to that law, I said in essence that I am glad judges were subjected to such scrutiny.

You know, for the first time I am beginning to understand what Hex Colors are on a web page. Thank you, Justin.

Mal

That's a great site, Robby. Some of the arguments against the death penalty are not dissimilar to unasked-for advice I gave to a writer in the WREX discussion recently when she said she was going to kill characters off in her story, especially when it came to rationalization and reconceptualization on the part of the prospective killer.

Mal

What was the currency in Babylon?

As of midnight tonight, 12 European countries (300 million people) will now use the Euro as their currency. What repercussions will that have on Europe's economy? France has had the Franc for the past 600 years, 1000 Italian liras will not be worth more than about ONE Euro. Imagine the confusion in the minds of people as they count their small change at the grocery store.

Never in history has anything like this happened. Is it telling us something about globalization?

Hammurabi Law No. 21:--"If any one break a hole into a house (break in to steal), he shall be put to death before that hole and be buried.

Hammurabi Law No. 22:--"If any one is committing a robbery and is caught, then he shall be put to death.

What, were they trying to annihilate and kill off the world of petty offenders in Babylonian days? This is more than "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth", which for some reason I thought was a premise of the Jews. How mistaken I've been.

Was it that societal discipline could only be attained through very harsh measures in Hammurabi's Babylonia?

To what can I relate this today?

I remember having a job as a pianist in a strict, strict Protestant church in a Southeastern state. After a year of widowhood, the daughter-in-law of the preacher actually had the audacity to speak to a man and invite him to the front porch of her very meager house for a glass of iced tea. When found out, she was chastised publicly at the front of the congregation for her act, which in the minds of the congregation constituted crime more than it did adulterous sin against the memory of her dead husband.

She was banned from the congregation and shunned by the only people she knew as friends, and left on her own to find a way to make a living in a world she knew absolutely nothing about. This was a young woman who had been restricted by the laws of her religion enough that she had no real education, job training or other resources at all.

I witnessed this in the Southeast of the United States in 1984.

The question that bothers me is: Did this severe punishment fit her crime?

Mal

Hammurabi Law No. 25:--"If fire break out in a house, and some one who comes to put it out cast his eye upon the property of the house, and take the property of the master of the house, he shall be thrown into that self-same fire.

Robby, in his post above:".....A payment of money was permitted as an alternative to the physical retaliation......"

But if you had no money?? The Hangman??? A law for the rich and a law for the poor.??????

Like you said Robby, the more things change, the more they remain the same....

The story of the widow and her punishment in the strict southeastern church is, I think, fairly common in religious communities. When I was a boy, the ministers in town as well as the local parish priest,all insisted that abused women be returned to their battering husbands.I'm not sure whether they thought the crime was running away from a brutal husband and therefore breaking the marriage vows or being disobedient to the husband and therfore deserving a beating. Religion has never been given to solving social problems without bringing a little meanness to the solution and very often religious authorities make problems worse. Religious people who serve in hospitals appear to be altruistic but very often bring their despicable rules with them. They serve on bread lines but like the Salvation army they exclude gays. Is it any wonder we question Geo. Bush's efforts to provide these groups with federal funding. Certainly, Hamurrabi's punishments seem extreme. Ours may also be extreme. I wonder how many innocent people we have executed. Now that we have DNA, we are beginning to find out. There are, apparently, prosecutors who are not above fabricating evidence to get convictions.The three strikes law entails some interesting combinations of crime and punishment. We are a little more civil than the Babylonians. We are less quick to punish and more certain of guilt and less violent in punishment but it is not long that flogging has been removed from our prisons.

In many history classes on both high school and college level, students hear about the Code of Hammurabi but they learn little more than three words -- they learn that there is a "Code of Hammurabi." And that's it. But here in our informal discussion group with years of experience behind most of us, we are able to compare the Laws of his Code codified thousands of years ago with Laws as we create them today.

Any reactions to the quote above which begins "There was nothing...?"

Robby

Hammurabi's Law No. 42:---"If any one take over a field to till it, and obtain no harvest therefrom, it must be proved that he did no work on the field, and he must deliver grain, just as his neighbor raised, to the owner of the field."

Hammurabi had no Bill of Rights. I don't ever remember reading the actual code except here. In school I just learned that there was a code, as Robby said. It is interesting to read. I think we are more civilized that that! So far.

Linda

The Codes may seem harsh to Western eyes, but several are still quite common in the Middle East and Central Asia. They are harsh regions of the world and what is plausible in a Democratic country like the USA would NOT be effective collectively in these two areas. Punishments for serious offenses (murder, theft, arson) are swift and harsh - to match the societies in which they occur. Even the most illiterate of villagers are acquainted with the laws and their punishments: if you kill, you will be killed; if you steal, you will lose your hand and in some cases a foot. And, for women (but not men), especially in rural areas, if they are accused of adultery, they will be killed (usually by stoning, but also with a bullet to the head as was witnessed in Afghanistan). The "ancient" laws and their punishments in some world regions STILL exist, even in the 21st century.

Does tradition make those laws right? And are ours in the West?

Mal

Hammurabi Law No. 44:--"If any one take over a waste-lying field to make it arable, but is lazy, and does not make it arable, he shall plow the fallow field in the fourth year, harrow it and till it, and give it back to its owner, and for each ten gan (a measure of area) ten gur of grain shall be paid.

z - z - z - z - z - z - z - z

A woman is suffering from post natal psychosis. She murders her children thinking they are possessed by the devil. She is on trial for murder possibly to be executed by lethal injection. Is this fair justice or a wild west mentality?

Carolyn

Is Lex Talionis in existence today or would you folks say that it disappeared with the ancient civilizations?

Robby

Hammurabi Law No. 48:--"If any one owe a debt for a loan, and a storm prostrates the grain, or the harvest fail, or the grain does not grow for lack of water -- in that year he need not give his creditor any grain. He washes his debt-tablet in water and pays no rent for this year.

I did a search on Lex Talionis, and to my surprise discovered there's a singer who calls himself Lex Talionis. Isn't that interesting?

Mahlia has said that some of the Hammurabi Codes are used today in the Middle East and central Asia. In the course of the brief search I did, I came across an essay by a Jewish writer about Lex Talionis. It made me think about what happens when a Palestinian terrorist attacks Israel. Generally, the retaliation is in kind. That is to say, if people are killed in Israel, Israelis will front a killing attack on Palestine. Isn't that what the United States has been doing in Afghanistan?

I also found statements for and against the death penalty in the United States under the heading Lex Talionis.

Offhand, I'd say Lex Talionis is alive and well in many parts of the world, even in this country where we say we believe in justice. I guess much depends on one's interpretation of justice.

Mal

MAL - I think your last sentence in #767 aswers your previous questions in #761. I remember Barbara Walters interview years ago with the Shah of Iran, who commented that the "laws of Iran, whether religious or secular, meet the harshness of the country." Afghan friends have spoken about their homeland as "a brigand society," which is also a term that one of Michener's characters uses in CARAVANS (which we have just completed discussing in another Books forum). The American Homestead laws that were commonplace in the pioneering West or the proprietary customs in the South (based on discriminatory interpretation of laws) would not be plausible in the 21st century, but slivers of those laws (and there punishments still seem to exist in certain areas. When one member of the Judicial Bench can be known as "the hanging Judge" and another can be termed more lenient, our country (and culture) shows its own confusion (whether intended or not)about the rights and wrongs of society. IMO, the ancient laws fit the society in which they were developed. Since we are so far removed from that time period (although often not in cultural terms) it is hard to make a clear distinction of right vs wrong. And as was mentioned earlier, it is wise not to judge unless one has lived and walked the pathways of the ancients.

Mahlia says:--"The ancient laws fit the society in which they were developed. Since we are so far removed from that time period (although often not in cultural terms) it is hard to make a clear distinction of right vs wrong. It is wise not to judge unless one has lived and walked the pathways of the ancients."

Would it be fair, then to say that the laws we have in this democracy fit the society we have? As we examine them, is it possiblethat some of the laws we have were passed down from earlier societies and not ones we made specifically for our society?

Robby

Mary DeBoer says:--"The more I learn the more insignificant I feel but isn't it a sign that we are learning if our knowledge and experiences make us more humble and hopefully more open to new ideas?"

I like to think that this forum, although dedicated to ancient civilizations, helps us to open up to "new ideas."

Robby

Hammurabi Law No. 55:--"If any one open his ditches to water his crop, but is careless, and the water flood the field of his neighbor, then he shall pay his neighbor corn for his loss."

HI EVERYBODY,
WISHING YOU ALL A
HAPPY NEW YEAR!
Oh dear, ever get the feeling that you exist in limbo. I just had a post vanish into the black hole. Lets try to re-write

ROBBY You asked whether or not the knowledge of other Civilizations made me feel less significant as a person. Whole centuries whip by in a sentence, its almost impossible to slow down. Definitely, the answer is yes! The more I learn the more insignificant I feel but isn't it a sign that we are learning if our knowledge and experiences make us more humble and hopefully more open to new ideas? History has so many lessons to teach us...

MAL Some time ago you welcomed me, thank you. I enjoy your clickables, they certainly help me to understand and I enjoy the extra knowledge. It is interesting reading novels set in different time periods and backgrounds when learning about a country, makes the information so easy to assimilate when there is a page-turning story.

ELOISE Thanks for your encouragement about late participation. And, you mentioned about my accent, I also hear your French side and the words have a lilt as I read your posts. It gives another level, doesn't it. So glad we met.

Now I am going back, so many posts to read before I catch up again with you all ( ~ _ ~ )

LATE EDIT think somehow you must have been posting when I came back in ROBBY because my post did not show... I accidentally deleted my duplicate posts and now you sound clairvoyant. Well you always sound so wise, does it matter? VBG

Mary:--As you can see, it did NOT vanish! In fact, I answered it. You can always delete the second one.

Robby

"Law is a distinct phenonomenon in that it is written and adminstered retribution and conflict resolution" as stated by Richard Hooker. What written laws give us an international guildline to terrorism? Perhaps I am wrong, but I know of no lex talionis as a contemporary written international law. Maybe I am way off base here.

Ellen asks:--"What written laws give us an international guideline to terrorism?"

A great question!! Not that we want to get off the sub-topic of Babylonia but the question does relate to the Code of Hammurabi and other ancient laws.

Robby

Laws # 48 and # 55 seem reasonable to me. It sure would be nice to wash my debt tablet and pay no rent after the year that just passed. Woops! My daughter is my landlady. Guess that wouldn't work, after all.

Ellen, I'm not a student of international law, or in fact any law, but I admit that I am not aware of any Lex Talionis in international law which concerns terrorist acts. If there is, would that make retaliation in kind okay?

It seems to me (and I could well be mistaken) that in the present crisis for the United States somebody
up there with clout is writing the laws as we go along. Has that happened in other times in other centuries,
I wonder?

Our laws today are not engraved in stone.

Mal

ELLEN - point of clarification, please. When you mention "international law" do you mean one secular law that several countries adhere to without question and administer within their own boundaries without concern about how it would affect their citizens?

For example, in Islamic countries (or those with a majority of Muslims)Sharia Laws are often used side-by-side with secular laws and in some countries there are no publicly enforced secular laws. The latter is the situation in which Afghanistan finds itself and is hurrying to overcome. In Iran, after the 1979 Islamic Revolution that brought Khomeini to power, Sharia Law replaced other laws throughout the country. Only in recent years has a more contemporary sense of jurisprudence been allowed back into practice.

I just read Hooker's comments on Lex Talionis and immediately thought of the conflict resolution practices newly undertaken by Azerbaijan in the past few years and encouraged by the Peace Institute at Baku University.

Sharia laws versus secular laws depending on who is in control? Perhaps That's the collision course for the world of today. but in ancient Babylonia, it was all one and the same, so no problem.

Hammurabi:--"If any man, without the knowledge of the owner of a garden, fell a tree in a garden, he shall pay half a mina in money.

Aren't all punishments retaliation? I park overtime and you take away some of my money. I commit a crime and you take away my liberty. Isn't everything Lex Talionis?

Robby

Now that you mention it .....

Mal:".....concerns terrorist acts. If there is, would that make retaliation in kind okay?...."

Isn't our action in Afghanistan more than just retaliation? The purpose, as I understand it, to wipe out the terrorists training camps, to eliminate the base of the terrorist organization.

Hubert:

This is a sensitive subject with me because I believe there's more than one way to accomplish the same thing.
In my mind, we have reverted back to an ancient means of showing who's boss.

How can civilization progress when we keep using the same method our ancestors used over and over and over? To what effect?

Mal

How would you deal with outlaws? Outlaws being people who do not abide by the law or social mores of a given civilization in which they reside. Being above the law makes for outlaws.

Jere

MAL - I assume that many of the posters here share your belief that there is more than one way to accomplish something. However, when dealing with a region of the world like Afghanistan (or other parts of Central Asia) where diplomacy does not work; striving for consensus does not work; and attempts at a loya jirga (the ancient Afghan tribal counsil including all factions throughout the country) provides no guarantees, then what's the next step. Unfortunately, there are still areas of the world where force is the only thing understood. It is very, very hard for those of us in the West to understand and separate this issue from the emotionalism of simply wanting peace. But in sectors where peacefulness does NOT have a long history, where governments have long histories of moral corruption, and tribal customs are STILL the main means of governing, force comes into the picture almost naturally. A strong, well armed leader who commands numerous combatants at his call is much more effective in this type of environment than a diplomatic who tries to persuade others to compromise or achieve consensus. That's why Hamiz Karzai is being watched so VERY carefully to see if it will be possible for him to hold on to power for 6 months, along with his newly appointed Ministers, and then hand over the government to a loya jirga and in two years have actual elections. It would be a dream come true for Afghanistan, but it has NOT happened yet. There is a lot to be said in that region of the world for the phrase "speak softly and carry a BIG stick."

Hammurabi Law No. 103:--"If, while on a journey, an enemy take away from him anything he had, the broker shall swear by God and be free of obliation.

This law is a bit different from many of the others. Apparently just swearing by the name of Marduk (their god) is sufficient to free the person from the obligation.

Robby

Here's a warning for the corner bar owner in Babylonia --

Hammurabi Law No. 109:--"If conspirators meet in the house of a tavern-keeper, and these conspirators are not captured and delivered to the court, the tavern-keeper shall be put to death.

There is a difference between the limited responses made by Israel and the response to terrorism made by the U.S. in Afghanistan. The first has the appearance of retribution though it may not be. It may be intended as a deterrent. However the effort in Afghanistan is definitely not retribution. The U.S. intends to wipe out, to eliminate terrorist action.That is the goal and it makes our methods acceptable to the moral consciousness of most Americans. Mal writes about someone in power changing the laws to suit. During War time it is essential the president have the power to prosecute the war. If that is not what you are referring to then I ask you to explain, please. Also when you say our methods have in the past been ineffective, I don't understand. We have achieved previous war goals and eliminated such threats as Tojo and Adolph from the world.

Justin:

Exactly. During war it is essential that the president have the power to prosecute the war. To my knowledge, the Congress of the United States (the representatives of the people) did not declare war. To answer other questions briefly, we'll never know if another method works unless we try one.

Now, this is enough. I didn't mean to lead this discussion away from Babylonia, though there certainly are similarities between Babylonian times and now.

Were these people obsessed with killing? Some of the crimes mentioned are scarcely deserving of death for the perpetrators. I realize we're not very far from primeval days when people had to kill for food and survival, but in a civilization as advanced as Babylonia's was, some of these punishments seem barbaric. That's said as a citizen of the United States in the year 2002, who knows people in other countries who think our death penalty is barbaric.

I'm curious to know how much of the Babylonian populace was educated. Education makes a difference in any civilization. Without it, people live on superstition, not fact.

An example of this are some questions posed to me by one of the two women who come to clean for me when I can afford it. She asked me if the study of geneaology meant someone could read minds. She was not convinced when I told her it does not. She then asked me about astrology. She is convinced that astrology works. She lives by every word in her horoscope in the newspaper. I suggested that she stop being so superstitious. She said, "Sugar, I live on superstition." That's today. How was it then?

Mal

Yes, we are moving onto declarations of war by a congress in a democracy which is far removed from Hammurabi's Code in Babylonia thousands of years ago. However, I can certainly understand how we drift in that direction.

Mal says:--"In a civilization as advanced as Babylonia's was, some of these punishments seem barbaric."

A quote by Durant above says: "Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends." In our search here to determine the difference between primitive people and civilized people, we might be at the point where we can ask: "In Babylonia was there chaos? In Babylonia was there insecurity?" If the answer is yes (which implies that they were primitive), then the constant death penalty might fit in. If, on the other hand, we consider them civilized, are we then saying that the death penalty does not fit in? If it does not, then where does the death penalty fit into our society which we consider civilized?

As for education, we will certainly cover that when we get to the fourth Element of Civilization.

Robby

Hammurabi's Law No. 126:--"If any one who has not lost his goods state that they have been lost, and make false claims -- if he claim his goods and aount of injury before God, even though he has not lost them, he shall be fully compensated for all his loss claimed. (i.e. the oath is all that is needed.)

In our courts of law, if a person on the stand raises his hand and pledges "to tell the truth, the whole truth, so help me God," when in fact he was actually lying, is he automatically given the benefit of the doubt?

Robby

There was not chaos in Babylonia as it is defined in the dictionary. Is it possible that the leaders feared there would be chaos if tight reins were not put on the people in the form of laws which decreed severe punishment for perceived criminal acts? Does that same condition and attitude exist today?

Durant says that not far from the limits of Babylonia there were wild animals, robbers and true barbarisns just to name a few elements which could cause insecurity. So, yes, there was insecurity in Babylonia, I'd say.

Can it be true that underneath every civilization there are the seeds of chaos, which lead to legislation by its leaders to prevent total disorder from emerging? After all, we are not that far away from a state of barbarism, are we, historically speaking?

It doesn't take much to create insecurity. The stock market falls; the economy plunges, people are out of work. Evidence of a plague of illness in a country can cause serious insecurity.

Terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center, in Washington, and the takeover of the plane in Pennsylvania certainly caused insecurity here such as I've never seen before in my fairly long life. The attack on Pearl Harbor did the same thing.

It disturbs me to think how close we, one of the most advanced civilizations in the world, can be to lack of control and chaos. Remember the 60's?

What must it be like to live in a country where the ruling body of goverment can be overthrown at the drop of a hat?

The more I learn about civilization, the less I think we are civilized.

Mal

Robby; Under What discussion number did you list the laws of Hamurrabi? You used to provide a list of titles or first lines that could be searched for things like this, but I can't seem to find that list.Search Command turns up nothing for me. I hate to move backwards one "previous" at a time.

I have always been against the death penalty for any crime. My arguments are the same you have all heard and I wont go into them here. I am however not against War when some other country provokes us to attack them. My close friends tell me I am inconsistant. I think we have to realize that a Civilization can be just that, and still not be perfectly just in it's application of laws, and or its social policys, and or its lust for Empire. Many Civilizations have through attempting Empire been totally unjust to the country they are assimilating. Take The British in what they did in the East re: partitioning. Lead to almost everything that is provoking war there today 60 odd years later. Still the choas Mal refers to does lie just under the surface of most countries today. Yet the words Civilized Nation applies to every nation I can think of today. Within those nations there are pockets of uncivilized peoples by Durants criteria, in say some South American and some African countries. IMO in this year 2002 we would have to consider 99% of the world civilized. I think we might change the meaning of the word if we deny that. Faith

Mal; It was not necessary for Congress to declare war. As FDR said before" A state of war has existed between this Government and the Government of Japan since Dec. 7." I think 9/11 was that defining date for this generation. I know you are looking for alternatives to war but what do you suggest when war is thrust upon us. Certainly not capitulation.

Justin, you can find the Code of Hammurabi by clicking HERE.

Faith says:--"The words Civilized Nation applies to every nation I can think of today. Within those nations there are pockets of uncivilized peoples by Durants criteria, in say some South American and some African countries. In this year 2002 we would have to consider 99% of the world civilized."

Do you folks agree or disagree?

Robby

Hammurabi Law No. 128:--"If a man take a woman to wife, but have no intercourse with her, this woman is no wife to him."

Is this the "civilized" approach?

Robby

I have been opposed to the death penalty for only a short time- just the past few years- since DNA, in fact. It was not an intellectual decision. No moralizing. I simply realized that our justice system was not infallible and therefore we could well be taking innocent life.George Bush had little problem ending the life of a retarded person. I thought that was barbaric. Life in prison is expensive for society but well worth the ease of mind. Closure can be achieved with a clanging door just as well as with a firing squad. I don't suppose that bothered Hamurrabi. If he had the slightest doubt about guilt or innocence,"Off with his hands". If we have the slightest doubt about guilt, we fail to convict. Consider Johnnie Cochran and the ball player.

There is no excuse now that we have viagra. "Off with his _____".

Easy does it, Justin! I believe you are in the wrong forum for that.

Robby

Hammurabi Law No. 177:--"If a widow, whose children are not grown, wishes to enter another house (remarry), she shall not enter it without the knowledge of the judge. If she enter another house, the judge shall examine the state of the house of her first husband. then the house of her first husband shall be entrusted to the second husband and the woman herself as managers. And a record must be made thereof. She shall keep the house in order, bring up the children, and not sell the house-hold utensils. He who buys the utensils of the children of a widow shall lose his money, and the goods shall return to their owners."

It appears that individual lives in those days were carefully monitored by the government and that marital laws were as carefully written and followed as in our day.

Robby

If a minor son can not work the field of his father who has been killed or captured in the kings service then the mother shall be granted one third of the field and garden and she shall raise the boy. This rule looks like the beginning of lower wages for women.

Commenting upon the Code of Hammurabi, Durant says:--"In such rough ways, through thousands of years, those traditions and habits of order and self-restraint were established which became part of the unconscious basis of civilization."

Anyone here seeing "order and self-restraint" in our civilization which might have come down through those thousands of years?

Robby

The earlier law regarding the consumation of a marriage is still resepcted within Islam. The major reason that Islam condones marriage to 4 women by the same man (as long as he treats each woman equally) was intended from the very beginning of Islam as a protection for women - especially those widowed and with children. In the ancient period it was a timeof great peril; men were killed in battle in great numbers; women were left to fend for themselves, often without any birth family relations neaerby. Thus, men "took them to wife," consumated the marriage (if possible) and the woman then came under the protection of the male. To the Western world, of cousre, the idea of more than one wife is reprehensible, but as we have seen in this and other discussions, there are usually good reasons for ancient laws and some (not all) customs.

For men who were NOT able to consumate a marriage, but still wanted to offer protection to a woman (especially one with young children), there is the option of a temporary marriage, which allows the woman to remain in the husband's household, but does not require her to share his bed. This is an unusual, but still viable, arrangement for some people. The idea of PROTECTION for the woman is paramount here, not necessarily the consumation of the marriage or as is often misinterpreted in the West, an increased opportunity for sexual exploits. Although Islam dates only from the 7th century, many customs in the tribal areas were carried forward from earlier periods and some still exist today.

"We find no evidence of lawyers in Babylonia, except for priests who might serve as notaries, and the scribe who would write for pay anything from a will to a madrigal. The plaintiff preferred his own plea, without the luxury of terminology. Litigation was discouraged. There are signs of bribery, and of tampering with witnesses.

"A court of appeals, staffed by "the King's Judges," sat at Babylon, and a final appeal might be carried to the king himself."

Durant himself asks a question: "Has the law progressed since Hammurabi, or only increased and multiplied?

Robby

If a storm ruins the crop or prevents growth then the tiller " washes his debt tablet in water" We would say "erase" because we have rubber pencil ends. Water must have wiped a clay tablet clean, perhaps even selectively clean.

Thank you, Mahlia, for those enlightening comments. You add: "Many customs in the tribal areas were carried forward from earlier periods and some still exist today." More and more, as we continue our discussions in this forum, the term "Oriental Heritage" is becoming relevant and evident.

Robby

"If the "sister of a God" enter a tavern, burn her." Do you suppose the temple prostitutes were called "sisters".

Durant tells us that "there was nothing in the Code about the rights of the individual against the state. That was to be a European innovation."

This is a very timely subject. In today's news there is an ARTICLE ABOUT THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION telling about the current fight against the government on behalf of the individual.

Robby

Thank you, Robby. I knew they were going to do something, but didn't know how it would play out. I'm glad to see they are working so hard on the behalf of not only our own citizens, but citizens from other countries as well. Our Bill of Rights is for all people not just for those of this country. "...people are endowed with certain inalienable rights." All people.

:inda

Thank you Mahlia for your post about plural marriages.It never occured to me that men might marry additional women to give them the protection of a household and husband. That's very commendable and I must admit it is as good if not a better solution than the culture of the west offers women. I am reminded of Mal's story of the widow and the southern protestant church.

As we move into the next section (see GREEN quotes above). Durant tells us the following:--

"Technically the king was merely the agent of the city god. Taxation was in the name of the god, and found its way directly or deviously into the temple treasuries. The king was not really king in the eyes of the people until he was invested with royal authority by the priests, 'took the hands of Bel,' and conducted the image of Marduk in solemn procession through the streets. In these ceremonies the monarch was dressed as a priest, symbolizing the union of church and state, and perhaps the priestly origin of the kingship."

Here we were thinking of the power of Hammurabi and find ourselves back again talking about the power of the priests. What thoughts does this put into your mind? Are you thinking of Primitive Man? Are you thinking of Egypt? Are you thinking of any modern civilizations?

Robby

After reading Palace Walk by Naguib Mahfouz, I am prompted to say that plural marriages were not always entered into in a spirit of generosity to women. Man was supreme. Women were hidden behind veils; were servants to their husbands, and restricted by numerous rules set up by the husband.

In this particular book about Egypt in 1917 to 1919, which I think is fairly representative of Babylonian times, men are shown as selfish often lustful creatures, whose pleasure and satisfaction dominated their thoughts.

About Babylonia Durant says that "the king was not really king in the eyes of the people until he was invested with royal authority by the priests." Once again we see the power of religion and priests. "Hammurabi received his laws from the god."

The processions through the streets in Babylonia remind me of religious processions in Europe, Canada and parts of the United States at this present time.

Mal

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Could the rise of the Mormon church with its plural marriages have been partially brought about by the loss of men in the Civil War and the numbers of widows with small children left to fend for themselves?

Primitive Man? I agree with the great anthropologist, Franz Boaz. He felt that there was no such thing as "primitive man". That "primitive man" was a false label.

The major point that I get out of all of our investigation of the Oriental Influence on our culture is how deep the roots of the Old Testament go into the history of Babylonia.

MAL - with great respect for you, may I reply that the Egyptian society which Mahfouz depicted in Palace Walk is NOT at all representative of ancient Babylonia. Egyptian culture (ancient and contemporary) is exclusive unto itself (as is readily acknowledged throughout the Middle East and North Africa). There is a deeply felt cultural arrogance among Egyptians (even those of very humble origins and economic standards) which translates in social terms to a feeling of societal superiority over other Arab countries (past and present).

Certainly there is not 100% adherence to all customs within a culture so the lustful male of ancient times may well have taken unfair advantage of women (what else is new!)widowed by wars or family strife. However, the initial purpose of the plural marriages within Islam was to offer protection as a benefit to women devoid of any other means of support.

And as noted in another post, plural marriages in the USA was also an option among the elders in the Morman Church. Whether it was due to the result of thousands of men being killed in the Civil War or the lack of other provisions for women in the Western part of the USA is not well known without some church research. But the concept of plural marriage is NOT alient to the USA and was at one time readily accepted. Now, of course, the only time we hear about it is on some spectacular TV program. In the Middle East, plural marriages are NOT the topic for sensationalized public programs, but are a part of a family's private business. In some regions, they are more accepted than others (i.e., among Muslims, but not by Christians or Jews).

Certainly no customs are adhered to by all, so you are perfectl

Mahlia:

What?

I bow to your knowledge and experience.

Told you, I'm out of my realm here with my by guess and by gorry opinions.

Mal

I conclude from what has been said that plural marriage in the middle east is a product of a culture in which women are completely disabled outside the home. Single women, widowed or otherwise, uneducated and essentially unemployable, would starve to death were it not for plural marriage. If women could remove the Burka, be educated and be free to work the need for plural marriage would diminish.

Marriage and religion are not unrelated topics. Many of the Laws from the Code of Hammurabi are related to marriage and, as Durant indicated, Hamurabi and the other kings were ruled by the priests. Anyone see similarities of this power of the clergy in other civilizations, both ancient and present?

Robby

As a novice to this discussion group, it appears to me that religion was originally constructed in order to "reign in the masses" where the existing laws and other political structure had failed. Original definitions on how many wives one can take, or what is right from what is wrong, formed the basis for all religious thought processes today. Mankind went from worshipping the giver of life, the sun, to a more expansive paradigm of worshipping that which created the sun. But by wresting individual spirituality away from the one, organized religions (still) offer little or no actual opportunity for civilized peoples to experience personal contact with that which created them, other than what we are told through ritual and commemoration. Therefore, in the very name of civilization, you could say that we lost our spiritual birthright.

What do you say?

Aha, Karen, you made it!!
Folks, allow me to introduce to you a very good friend of mine. Karen is the Executive Director of the Chamber of Commerce to which I belong. For a number of days, she has been having some problems on getting registered but here she is now and "ready to roll." I use that term because she is a gung-ho type of person. You should see how active our Chamber of Commerce is!
One day I explained Senior Net to her saying I thought she would be interested and as soon as she learned what it was all about,to use her term she "became hooked." She is a very courteous person (who by the way has a beautiful voice and sang at the Kennedy Center in Washinton on New Years Eve) but simultaneously has strong opinions. I pointed out that all of us here have strong opinions and that is what makes our forum such a success. We often disagree but choose to "disagree in an agreeable manner."
OK, Karen, you're on your own!!
Robby

Mormon plural marriages were practiced not just in the west and not just by the Mormon church elders. It included any adult Mormon male that could support a larger number of wives. The wives were expected to work together for the common good of the family, community and church. Out west a problem soon developed, a shortage of single, young women in areas other than Mormon settlements.

Now back to Babylonia. I have to review what the code of Hammurabi has to say about plural marriage rights.

Ellen:--This may partially answer your question. Hammurabi Law No. 141:--"If a man's wife, who lives in his house, wishes to leave it, plunges into debt, tries to ruin her house, neglects her husband, and is judically convicted -- if her husband offer her release, she may go on her way, and he gives her nothing as a gift of release. If her husband does not wish to release her, and if he take another wife, she shall remain as servant in her husband's house."

Robby

Welcome, Karen! Jump right in and speak your mind any ole time.

Linda

The clergy always seem to have the masses thoroughly convinced of the validity of their arguments and as result the clergy have power to wield. Even if rulers like Hamurrabi don't believe the superstitions of the clergy they readily recognize the advantage of using the clergy to bring about overall control of the population. Ikhnatun and Nefertiti are notable exceptions. However, the clergy won at the end of that reign.They may have even bumped off Ikhnatun and his follow-on Tutankamon because Tutank's mummy had a hole in the head when it was found.Ikhnatun did not realize what danger he was courting when tried to wipe out the Amon boys. During the middle ages the clergy ruled Europe with an iron hand and a firey stake. That dominance lasted until the renaisance.And today, the clergy strongly guides the thinking of our own dear conservative wing of the republican party. The clergy remains a big influence in society by wielding its superstitious club judiciously .

Justin:--We have political forums in Senior Net if you wish to give your views of conservative vs liberal or republican vs democratic. That is not the theme of this discussion group.

The clergy has no influence whatsoever here in New Zealand. We are far too much of a secular and overly politically correct State.

Carolyn

Justin:--We have political forums in Senior Net if you wish to give your views of conservative vs liberal or republican vs democratic. That is not the theme of this discussion group.

Welcome Karen: I hope you enjoy our little Tete a Tete. I am looking forward to reading your views.________________________________________ Robby; I thought we were attempting to find ancient corelations with contemporary life.

Continuing on with the comparison of ancient civilizations with other ancient civilizations or with our own, let us follow Durant's remarks concerning Babylonia:--

"The wealth of the temples grew from generation to generation, as the uneasy rich shared their dividends with the gods. The kings, feeling an especial need of divine forgiveness, built the temples, equipped them with furniture, food and slaves, deeded to them great areas of land, and assigned to them an annual income from the state. When the army won a battle, the first share of the captives and the spoils went to the temples. When any special good fortune befell the king, extraordinary gifts were dedicated to the gods.

"Certain lands were required to pay to the temples a yearly tribute of dates, corn, or fruit. If they failed, the temples could foreclose on them. And in this way the lands usually came into possession by the priests. Poor as well as rich turned over to the temples as much as they thought profitable of their eaarthly gains. Gold, silver, copper, lapis lazuli, gems and precious woods accumulated in the sacred tresure."

Do these remarks of Durant lead any of you to a reaction to the quote above which begins "The priests became...?"

Robby

Justin, yes we are, but in this discussion group we stay away from political or religious specifics. We have forums in Senior Net on religion and politics for that. Comparing one civilization with another civilization is certainly proper but this discussion group is not the forum for giving your attitude toward a particular political individual or party. We all respect your views but that, I repeat, is not the theme of this Discussion Group. Please feel free to click onto the Discussion Index above and locate a group where they freely discuss those topics.

Robby

We seem to have discovered the birth of indentured servitude: a wife whose husband refuses to release her, remains in the husband's household as a servant - until he decides to release her, until she is not longer able to "serve" or until she dies.

So it's specificity that is the no no. Would you have objected if I had dropped the reference to the Republican party and said "some political parties"? I am not grinding a political axe, I am trying to relate your questions to contemporary life.

Justin:--I suggest we move on and talk about Durant. No one else here is having any problem. If you feel that this is not fair, you are free to contact the Senior Net Director of Education.

Any comments from others here regarding the <GREEN quotes above?

Robby

ok ok I will be careful of specifics.

Karen: You offer some new thought on the origin of religion, you say, "it began when existing laws and political structure failed". What do you think of "fear of the unknown" as a contributor to the origin of religion?

I'm just wandering through the laws bit by bit paraphrasing as I go.#130. If a man has intercourse with a virgin, he dies, she goes home to papa. Today he goes to jail if the event represented rape and it would be rape if she were underage. Some men today think a "surprise" is excuse for murder. #131 brings out the power of an oath before god. It is a very powerful device for relieving one of guilt in Babylonian times. Today it entails the penalty of purgery in law courts. --- The penalty for rape of virgins has been reduced today and the value of an oath before god is still effective.

"Fear of the Unknown" seems like a good explanation for the birth of religion... and truly, political leaders knew a good thing when they saw it! Yes, indeedy.

Law 132 says" If the "finger is pointed" at a man's wife about another man, but she is not caught sleeping with the other man , she shall jump into the river for her husband. In the opposite situation the man may well be patted on the back in front of the wife for achieving a conquest. We are not completely out of the woods on this today. The scarlet letter is still grounds for divorce in some states.

Justin:--Like yourself, I also "wandered through the Laws of Hammurabi bit by bit" but found, as I did so, that the majority of them had nothing whatsoever to do with virgins, rape, a man's wife being with another man, scarlet letter, achieving a conquest and other items of this ilk.
You are most certainly free to continue discussing the various Laws which appeal to you specifically as you "wander through them" but you may have noticed from the remarks by Durant I posted and from the GREEN quotes above that are periodically changed, that we have long since passed the Code of Hammurabi.
Jeryn agrees that "fear of the Unknown" seems like a good explanation for the birth of religion."
When speaking of the "unknown," imagination often comes to the forefront. Durant tells us:--"The gods were numerous for the imagination of the people was limitless. There was hardly any end to the needs that deities might serve. An official census of the gods, undertaken in the ninth century before Christ, counted them as some 65,000. Every town had its tutelary divinity and,-- as in our own time and faith, localities, and villages, after making formal acknowledgment of the Supreme Being, worship specific minor gods with a special devotion,-- so Larsa lavished its temples on Shamash, Uruk on Ishtar, Ur on Nannar -- for the Sumerian pantheon had survived the Sumerian state.
"The gods were not aloof from men. Most of them lived on earth in the temples."
Robby

"The gods were not aloof from men. Most of them lived on earth in the temples."

And, seemingly, went into battle with the various armies. I remember sitting in on a seminar years ago when the instructor (who was a military officer from the Pentagon), spent some time outlining detailed manuevers on ancient battles. One of his foremost comments in that section of the class was that as the armies manuevered themselves around (and these large groups were comprised of many thousands of combatants, servants, priests and Gods)into prime battle positions, they were extremely anxious about the placement of their Gods. According to the instructor, the priests were emphatic about positioning the Gods to meet the rising sun; repositioning them before sundown ; leaving food and drink for the Gods, etc. It was fascinating to listen to a contemporary senior officer discuss in great detail the importance to ancient armies of the correct placement of their Gods as they prepared for and then engaged in battle.

I disagree with all of the above postings. I believe right from the very beginning man sought spiritual comfort. Yes, even the caveman maybe worshipping the moon or sun. It seems to be something humans seek.

Carolyn

Some of these myths I will mention came from Egypt and some from Sumeria to Babylonia and then to the Jews who may have been responsible for passing them on. Moses like Hammurabi receives the code of laws directly from the God. Both laws were derivatives of Sumerian prototypes. The Gilgamesh Epic gives us a story similar to that of Job. The story of the Flood seeems to begin here. Isis, the great mother was called the "Mother of God".She was shown in holy efigy, nursing in a stable, the babe that she miraculously conceived.Durant on page 204 describes wizards who dry up lakes. Moses could well have been conceived as a wizard. In Durant on page 229 Babylonia is described as the Eden of Semitic legend. Genesis talks about the Euphrates flowing through Eden. `

Carolyn says:--"Right from the very beginning man sought spiritual comfort. Yes, even the caveman maybe worshipping the moon or sun. It seems to be something humans seek."

What is this "something" that Carolyn refers to? Comments anyone?

Robby

Durant continues:--"Ishtar (Astarte to the Greeks, Ashtoreth to the Jews) interests us not only as analogue of the Egyptian Isis and prototype of the Grecian Aphrodite and the Roman Venus, but as the formal beneficiary of one of the strangest of Babylonian customs. She was Demeter as well as Aphrodite -- no mere goddess of physical beauty and love, but the gracious divinity of bounteous motherhood, the secret inspiration of the growing soil, and the creative principle everywhere.

"It is impossible to find much harmony, from a modern point of view, in the attributes and functions of Ishtar -- she was the goddess of war as well as of love, of prostitutes as well as of mothers. She called herself "a compassionate courtesan." She was represented sometimes as a bearded bisexual deity, sometimes as a nude female offering her breast to suck, and though her worshipers repeatedly addressed her as "The Virgin," "The Holy Virgin," and "The Virgin Mother," this merely meant that her amours were free from all taint of wedlock."

As Durant indicates, this combination of traits in one goddess is extremely difficult for the modern, and especially Western, mind to comprehend. As you read -- and perhaps re-read -- Durant's comments about Ishtar, how do you see it? For example, how can both war and love be present in the same being? Didn't a slogan of a generation not too far back say; "Make love, not war?" Durant warned us as we began this volume about "Our Oriental Heritage" that at times it would be almost impossible for us to understand the Eastern mind.

Your comments please?

Robby

Click onto ISHTAR for further information about this goddess.

Robby

Durant says:

"The wealth of the temples grew from generation to generation, as the uneasy rich shared their dividends with the gods. The kings, feeling an especial need of divine forgiveness, built the temples, equipped them with furniture, food and slaves, deeded to them great areas of land, and assigned to them an annual income from the state." (Italics are mine.)

The above does not say to me that these things were done because people felt a need for spirituality. It says that if the wealthy and others did not pay a sort of penance to the gods, an immense bolt of lightning, earthquake or drought, or "the anger of the gods" would do them in, sort of like "protection" money, don't you think?

I wonder why nobody could see that priests would get richer and richer while, except for the kings, everyone else became poorer? Superstition more than anything else dictated this behavior, in my opinion.

Have human beings always been aware of their indiscretions and immoderate behavior? Is guilt which demands punishment and penance an inbred, congenital condition of humanity? I don't think so. If not, where did it come from? "My crops failed this year, so I must have done something really, really bad."

Durant says "the Babylonian derived no satisfaction from the idea of personal immortality. His religion was terrestrially practical; when he prayed he did not ask for celestial rewards but for earthly goods; he could not trust the gods beyond the grave."

If that was the case, then the fight to keep food in your mouth and a roof over your head was much more important to Babylonians than ensured entrance into some sort of heaven, it seems to me.

Would this imply that the struggle for survival was extremely strong, even in this very rich civilization? That the unknowns and unpredictables were so many that it was necessary to beseech and support many, many different gods? A fire could wipe a quarter of Babylonia out. So could serious illness whose source was a complete mystery.

To me it seems as if religion, at least in Babylonian days, came about because people stood in fear of being killed off and the irrationality of Nature. That irrationality of nature might possibly have included human nature which made people behave in emotional and irresponsible ways at times. Pray to the gods and pay them, and you'll survive. Don't pay them, and you don't stand a chance.

Today it seems in civilized nations such as this one, we still find comfort in religion when disastrous and unpredictable things happen. One great difference is that humans today appear to toe the mark and behave themselves so they'll be guaranteed a spot in heaven or some paradise, a divine place where extreme terrestrial stresses, such as those described above, supposedly do not exist.

Now let's see who'll come in and blow holes in what I've posted. Religion is an extremely sensitive subject. My aim throughout this discussion is to try to get into the minds of the people of the times we've discussed. I don't believe true understanding of those times can come unless this is done.

As I've said before, this is my opinion based on much thought, reading and observation and not necessarily the opinion of anyone else.

Mal

In more primitive times there was religion - that honoring nature and making gods of the Sun, Moon, etc. Couldn't that be inbred and passed on through the ages?

When I think of our country before Columbus, many Native Americans were so close to the Earth that they felt the presence of spirits which they say taught them things.

I think there is a need in most to believe in something beyond themselves. Much of it seems to turn into superstitions and rituals after a time.

Linda

Please click the link below to see a picture of the restored Ishtar Gate.

Ishtar Gate

Very Impressive!

Thanks, Mal!

Linda

"As Durant indicates, this combination of traits in one goddess is extremely difficult for the modern, and especially Western, mind to comprehend." (Robby's post #846, emphasis mine)

ROBBY - although I realize that you did not mean the above as a humorous statement, I burst out laughing when I read it. It seems to me to describe ALL of the various characteristics of women and in that sense contributes directly to the age old male complaint: "I will NEVER understand women." The complexity of the female and the various "sides" to womens's characters has been a MAJOR issue of gender misunderstanding for eons.

Mahlia:--I am mere mortal man. What do you expect from me? But perhaps you, and other women here, can help some of us to understand how a goddess can be both a goddess of love and a goddess of war.

Robby

Below is a link to a picture of the copy of a figurine of Ishtar which is at the Louvre Museum. I read this morning that Ishtar was also known as Easter.

Figurine of Ishtar

Sometime next week my ISP will change. I have been told that in my area there have been some problems in the changeover. So I want to tell you all (and I will post this in a couple of other forums) that if it suddenly appears that I have "fallen off the face of the earth," I am merely sitting with frustration in front of my computer trying like mad to get back to you all.

Robby

Thank you for those excellent Links, Mal. Here is a sketch of a BABYLONIAN GATE showing its relation to the rest of the city.

Robby

Can't access your link, Robby.

Hey, did you have snow? We are snowbound in my part of North Carolina with just over six inches on the ground, a brisk wind blowing the snow around, and more snow and ice predicted this afternoon. Everything's closed and no one's going anywhere today.

Oh, Ishtar, Ishtar, either bring me Spring or a mug of hot chocolate with a marshmallow in it and whipped cream on top, okay?

Mal

Mal:--Apparently geocities temporarily removed that Link.

In the begining, says Durant, was Chaos. The Babylonians constructed their myth:--"In the time when nothing which was called heaven existed above, and when nothing below had yet received the name of earth, Apsu, the Ocean, who first was their father, and Tiamat, Chaos, who gave birth to them all, mingled their waters in one."

Durant tells us that, according to the myth, "things slowly began to grow and take form but suddenly the monster-goddess Tiamat set out to destroy all the other gods, and to make herself - Chaos - supreme. A mighty revolution ensued in which all order was destroyed. Then another god, Marduk, slew Tiamat with her own medicine by casting a hurricane of wind into her mouth as she opened it to swallow him. Then he thrust his lance into Tiamat's wind-swollen paunch, and the goddess of Chaos blew up.

Marduk, "recovering his calm," says the legend split the dead Tiamat into two longitudinal halves, as one does a fish for drying. "Then he hung up one of the halves on high, which became the heavens. The other half he spread out under his feet to form the earth."

Says Durant:--"This is as much as we yet know about creation. Perhaps the ancient poet meant to suggest that the only creation of which we can know anything is the replacement of chaos with order, for in the end this is the essence of art and civilization. We should remember, however, that the defeat of Chaos is only a myth."

Two interesting comments here by Durant.

1 - The replacement of chaos with order is the essence of art and civilization.
2 - The replacement (defeat) of chaos is a myth.

Is Durant saying that order will never replace chaos?

Your thoughts, please.

Robby

Many scientists claim there is order in chaos, Robby.

Below is a link to a translation of the Enuma Elish, the seven tablets which tell the story of Apsu and Tiamat (Chaos).

Enuma Elish

In my previous post, I gave the first five lines of the Epic of Creation which Durant quoted. However, there may be some participants here who click onto Mal's Link, read the Epic more in detail, and be surprised at reading many familiar lines or concepts.

Robby

Linda says:" When I think of our country before Columbus, many Native Americans were so close to the Earth, that they felt the presence of spirits which they say taught them things ......"

They believed in a spiritual essence or life force (soul?) in everything, that we ( and animals) are on a spiritual journey. Then, came the White Man and brought them religion. The rest is history.....

Hubert:--What do you see as the difference between religion and belief in "spiritual essence?"

Robby

Robby, "spiritual essence", we are born with, "religion",--- man made.

Hubert:--Please expand a bit to help me understand your thoughts. What is this "spiritual essence" that we are born with and what is this "religion" that is man-made?

Robby

Say, an essence or life force,which mysticism , at times, calls "mind" is in everything. The great Mystery! Religion, and philosophy are trying to define it and explain it to the people, and religion, in some cases, are forcing their explanation of the great mystery onto the people.

How about the rest of you folks (including lurkers)? Do you see it as Hubert does - or perhaps a bit differently?

Robby

Robby:

In reply to your #845 and #846 posts about love, religion and war, I thought about the therapeutic comfort that belief in a higher power brought to people in times of stress, which gave life meaning to them.

I also thought about all the wars that were fought, and people destroyed in every nation and civilization, because of different religious beliefs.

On December 15, 1944 members of my unit, of the 3rd Inf. Div., were digging in on the western bank of the Rhine River near Strassbourg, Germany. We had already spent previous Christmas seasons in foxholes, in Africa in 1942, and in Italy in 1943.

As the darkness fell one of my buddies took out his mouth organ and started to play "Silent Night" in homage to the One who had been born during this season 2000 years ago.

For the rest of the evening, and late into the night, Christmas carols were sung jointly by two adversaries, in two different lanquages, using the same melodies, about peace and the brotherhood that the season represented.

Pat

Your having had this experience, Pat, I would be interested in your comparison between religion and "spiritual essence."

And do you have any reaction to a goddess being a goddess of both love and war?

Robby

For you students of ancient cultures and philosophy, please recall the Hindu god/goddess known as Shiva (male) or Kali (female). This entity was (is) always portrayed as a multi-armed creature, dancing the dance of both creation and destruction at the same time. Somehow ancient cultures could more readily accept that which cannot be perceived in our modern, linear state of mind. But if you dwell (meditate!) on the concept, there can be no dark without light, no life without death...each is integrally part of the other.

The concept of CREATOR perhaps would be found emanating from the still-point, the middle of these extremes, from which all is born.

Therefore, a goddess COULD encompass both love and war, chaos and order, by the very outstretching of her arms. Does that answer your query, Robby?

I've always felt that religion is a searching by people to find a way to explain the unexplainable in the world around them - regardless of the simplicity or sophistication of their society.

MaryWZ

I, frankly, don't see much difference between prehistoric human beings and the people in Babylon as far as religion is concerned, except for the subsidy of and endowment for priests and the temples which were their abode. The only person thus far who had a unique idea about religion was Ikhnaton of Egypt, who believed in monotheism, and you know where that got him and his Empire.

I am strongly inclined to think that "spirituality" and the idea of "soul" are relatively new, historically speaking, and I intend to do some research about this. For thousands of centuries, there was not the preoccupation with either of these that there is today.

What others call "soul", I call life. In my opinion, when someone dies, what is left is the inanimate vehicle which carried that life around.

What others call spirituality, I call curiosity about life itself, its unknowns and unanswered questions, a search for answers to those questions.

Once again I repeat that I speak for myself here, and what I say has nothing to do with any religious beliefs I might have.

Mal

Lots of deep thinking here. That is what makes this discussion group successful. We don't need to have any specific knowledge in order to pause, think a bit, and then share an opinion.

Robby

Pat says:--"Science and knowledge without religion and belief are crippled, Religion and belief without science and knowledge are sightless."

And, speaking of apparent contrasts within an individual, he describes Man as simultaneously insignificant and a complex wonder of creation.

These thoughts help us to keep in mind the questions in the Heading above -- "What Are Our Origins? Where Are We Now? Where Are We Headed?

Robby

"Having moved heaven and earth into place, Marduk undertook to knead earth with his blood and thereby make men for the service of the gods. Mesopotamian legends differed on the precise way in which this was done. They agreed in general that man was fashioned by the deity from a lump of clay.

"Usually they represented him as living at first not in a paradise but in bestial simplicity and ignorance, until a strange monster called Oannes, half fish and half philosopher, taught him the arts and sciences, the rules for founding cities, and the principles of law -- after which Oannes plunged into the sea, and wrote a book on the history of civilization."

Robby

Robby, Mal, Karen and Mary;

I enjoyed all your comments on this thought provoking subject, but IMHO the creator is an ethereal spirit , an entity neither male or female.

When we look at the pictures taken through the Hubble telescope at the magnitude and magnificence of the Universe, we realize how insignificant we are, and yet we are part of the whole.

When we look through the microscope at the atom we see what a complex wonder of creation we are, in size gigantic to an atom, and so small, a speck of dust to a star.

The evolutionary path of creation took us from the atomic nuclei and the cell nuclei to the galactic nuclei, but it was only when the animal and human brain developed that creation took a giant leap, and that survival of the fittest prevailed,

The goal of science evolution should be the attainment of maximum consciousness for all creatures.

No individual human can hope to possess more than a tiny fraction of the knowledge in all subjects and fields now carried by our species.>p> With the development of the home computer man no longer is required to think alone, and can solves all problems by becoming a part of a collective thinking entity that covers every subject and field.

The most prevalent example of this is the internet which allows 10,000,000 computers and their users to communicate world wide.

Although man has a limited life span, he could provide the seeds for life on other planets, and be an instrument in the creative process of the universe.

Science and knowledge without religion and belief are crippled, Religion and belief without science and knowledge are sightless. Science, knowledge, religion and belief without Revelation are impotent.

Pat

I have enjoyed reading as many of the posts as I can. The holidays interupted my reading and I am attempting to catch up.

I believe the exact opposite to the statement, "Science and knowledge without religion and belief are crippled." Religion crippled science and knowledge at a time in our history when we should have been moving forward. The priests had most of the control in Babylon and also later religions when science began to disprove many of the common beliefs. The scientist of that day were imprisoned for disputing them. When we got the priests (and any other religious leaders) out of controling the countries and their leaders then science and discovery flourished.

Superstition and religion are synonymous and feed off each other.

As we examine the religions of ancient civilizations and, at times, compare them with current civilizations, we find ourselves in a topic which is often discussed with passion. As sort of a gentle reminder, I am re-posting Post No. 2 which I wrote when we began this forum on November 4th. In no way does my re-posting this imply that anyone is getting out of line. As a matter of fact, everyone is being courteous and considerate as we cover this vital sub-topic. It is merely, as I say, a gentle reminder.

To my knowledge, no civilization of any sort has existed without some sort of ritual which one can call religious. For this reason, it will be impossible to participate in this forum without discussing "religion" from time to time.

However, the following guidelines will be enforced by the Discussiion Leader to avoid confrontations and digressions about personal religious views.

1 - You may make one post describing your own beliefs related to religion (whether you have a religious faith or do not) in order to explain your viewpoint toward the topic at hand. Making additional posts about your religious beliefs or faith is not permitted.

2 - Do not speak of your religion or absence of religious beliefs as "the truth."

3 - Do not attempt to change another's conviction about religion.

Comments about issues are welcomed. Negative comments about other participants are not permitted.

Those participants who do not believe they are being treated fairly in this respect always have the right to contact Marcie, Director of Education. I will follow her guidance.

Robby

Welcome, Fifi!! Glad to have you in this discussion group.

Fifi tells us:--"Superstition and religion are synonymous and feed off each other."

Agree? Disagree?

Robby

To continue Babylonia's view of Creation:--"The gods became dissatisfied with the men whom they had created, and sent a great flood to destroy them and all their works. The god of wisdom, Ea, took pity on mankind, and resolved to save one man at least -- Shamash-napishtim -- and his wife. The flood raged. Men 'encumbered the sea like fishes spawn.' Then suddenly the gods wept and gnashed their teeth at their own folly, asking themselves, 'Who will make the accustomed offerings now?' But Shamash-napishtim had built an ark, had survived the flood, had perched on the Mountain of Nisir, and had sent out a reconnoitering dove. Now he decided to sacrifice to the gods, who accepted his gifts with surprise and gratitude. 'The gods snuffed up the odor, the gods snuffed up the excellent odor, the gods gathered like flies above the offering.'"

Please keep in mind that this is the Babylonian belief. Does it ring a bell?

Robby

"Magic begins in superstition and ends in science."

- - - Will Durant

"The Babylonian derived no satisfaction from the idea of personal immortality. His religion was terrestrially practical. When he prayed, he asked not for celestial rewards but for earthly goods. He could not trust his gods beyond the grave.
"It is true that one text speaks of Marduk as he 'who gives back life to the dead,' and the story of the flood represents its two survivors as living forever. For for the most part the Babylonian conception of another life was like that of the Greeks. Dead men -- saints and villains, geniuses and idiots, alike -- went to a dark and shadowy realm within the bowels of the earth. None of them saw the light again.

"There was a heaven, but only for the gods. The Aralu to which all men descended was a place frequently of punishment, never of joy. There the dead lay bound hand and foot forever, shivering with cold, and subject to hunger and thirst unless their children placed food periodically in their graves. Those who had been especially wicked on earth were subjected to horrible tortures. Leprosy consumed them, or some other of the diseases which Nergal and Allat, male and female lords of Aralu, had arranged for their rectification."

Interesting term "rectification." Sort of like "correction" as in "correctional facility."

Robby

I wonder when heat came to what we think of today as Hell? ".....bound hand and foot forever, shivering with cold....."

Gods went to heaven; mortals did not. Marduk was resurrected after his death. Did the idea of heaven for humans come with Christianity?

"I, thy servant, full of sighs cry unto thee. Thou acceptest the fervent prayer of him who is burdened with sin." Where did the concept of sin come from? Did the priests instill this idea in people to keep them in line?

Mal

"I, thy servant, full of sighs cry unto thee. Thou acceptest the fervent prayer of him who is burdened with sin."

Where did that come from, Mal?

Robby

I knew the Babylonian mythology to be very closed to what is written in Genesis. I had never heard the Babylonian names and was quite surprised to have them sounding so familiar to Hebrew.

Mountain Nazir for example. Nazir is a Hebrew word for monk, saint man or prophet.

Shamash napishtim. A shamash is a keeper, a name used even today for the one who takes care of the house of prayer, the synagogue. It is also the name of the "keeper cadle" on a Hanuka candelabre, the special candle you can use, alone, to lit any other who would ne unadvertedly extinguished. Noah was truly the keeper alive of humanity.

Nafishtim is harder. In semitic languiges P and F are interchangeable, the same as B and V. The ending "im" indicates a plural. Singular - if in Hebrew - would be nafsha, f. If I put it in the masculin gender "Nefesh " means a soul, a mind. Could this ancient Noah be called the keeper of souls? It sounds fascinating.

Bubble

Bubble:--Thank you very much for those relevant bits of information. Your comments bring to mind something I have regularly noticed as I have been reading Durant along with everyone else here. And that is -- that although Durant has divided the Volume into separate civilizations and had of necessity to do so for easier reading, that nevertheless the progress of civilization doesn't work that way. That one society moves along gradually into another society and that the customs of one become the customs of another and are gradually changed.

Thank you for helping us to understand those Hebrew terms. These will undoubtedly be more meaningful to us when we get to Judea. (But we have a ways to go yet as we move gradually through other civilizations.)

Robby

Robby, the quote is at the bottom of page 241. It is from what Durant describes as "hymns full of that passionate self-abasement with which the Semite tries to control and conceal his pride."

Mal

I see it, Mal. Thanks.

This reminds us that the Babylonians were Semitic and perhaps helps us to better understand Bubble's comments about the language relationship with the Hebrews.

Robby

I am a Christian believer. Durant is a wonderful writer of history, but I sense his scorn towards spirituality as something only the simple minded and uneducated in the science of philosophy will adhere to.

He doesn't have to remind us that mankind (priests too) are cruel, selfish, lustful, vengeful, greedy, love power etc. we know that, we are born already with these genetic flaws, but with a close relationship with God those of us who are believers can manage going through this very brief life on earth with a minimum of serenity. Durant is not about to change my beliefs in spite of his philosophy.

Durant describes women as mere sex objects. We like to think that we have a much larger role in the shaping of civilization than that. I have a feeling that he even despises women, perhaps he did not have a good rapport with his mother, (my psychology).

Eloïse

Thank you, Eloise, for that most important post. While Eloise is in no way trying to get us to believe in her fashion, she is nevertheless calling to our attention a most important fact -- that all human beings have their own specific spiritual beliefs (or lack of belief) and that authors, being human, tend to write from their own perspective.

Please note this phrase from the Heading above: -- "In this Discussion Group we are not examining Durant. We are examining Civilization but in the process constantly referring to Durant's appraisals." Durant's appraisals may not be the same as ours. Let us at times disagree with Durant's opinion (or implied opinion) if that is our view. However, agree or disagree, let us not refrain from posting here simply because we are unhappy with Durant's appraisals.

Thank you, Eloise, for calling this to our attention.

Robby

He had a wonderful relationship with his wife, Ariel.

Linda

Will Durant was stating facts he found through doing research which were corroborated by others.

Though Will and Ariel Durant were both extremely intelligent and must have foreseen, as Darwin did, that what is written in The Story of Civilization might be disturbing to some, I don't believe that their intention was ever to attack anyone's faith or spirituality. Nor do I believe that the description of women was meant in any way to be derogatory.

As far as I can see, Durant's main purpose was to reveal facts that could lead to an understanding of civilization.

Mal

"that passionate self-abasement with which the Semite tries to control and conceal his pride"

is so veridic to this day. It can be seen in both Hebrew and Arabic history. The quote reminds me much of how the Japanese talks to strangers about their unworthy wife who prepared a terrible meal in their shamefully unadequate house. But the huge pride is always there.

A special kind of politeness toward those unhappy enough not to be part of the elite? Bubble.

Robby--

I think I may be able to have my cake and eat it too, so to speak. I just checked and found out that the Durant series is on tape. I'll check the library for availability. If I can get them from the library, I can repossess the tape deck I gave Janet, and listen while I sew, knit, scrub, etc. Thus, doing 2 things at a time. Then I can check in here once in a while and maybe even contribute.

Dear fellow contributors: I think it might be appropriate at this juncture to offer a pat on the back to our Discussion Leader, Robby Iadeluca, who has been doing a wonderful job with an enormously difficult task...Keep in mind that Robby must remain impartial, informed, linked to outside sources and must, at all times, refrain from offering his own personal views. I know that would be nigh on impossible for me to do... Kudos, dear Robby. Thank you for the mind-enhancing opportunity and gentle, loving care with which you guide us, your "discussers".

Best to you!

Who ever would have thought (our society) civilization could have come so far as to be communicating in this manner? We are another story of civilization's "melding". Durant surely would have been impressed.

Durant answers my questions about sin in Babylonia.

"Sin was no mere theoretical state of the soul; like sickness it was the possession of the body by a demon that might slowly destroy it. Prayer was in the nature of an incantation against a demon that had come down upon the individual out of the ocean of magic forces in which the ancient Orient lived and moved."

These demons hid in all kinds of places and came into a household and the body through all sorts of ways.

"Giants, dwarfs, cripples, above all, women, had sometimes the power, even with a glance of the 'evil eye', to infuse such a destructive spirit into the bodies of those toward whom they were ill-disposed."

Wow!

Some protection against these demons came from amulets, charms, talismans and images of the gods which people carried. I remember knowing a girl when I was very young who wore a chain around her neck to which were attached a red cloth bag of garlic and a white cloth bag of other herbs. The garlic was supposed to keep germs away from her. She believed the herbs would protect her from the devil.

It has to be true that superstitions abound today which go back to Babylonian times and before.

Mal

Karenleigh, could it be that Robby Iadeluca enjoys what he does as much as we enjoy participating here? What I appreciate is his objectivity.

Now, that's enough. We don't want the head of the discussion leader of The Story of Civilization to get so big that it won't fit into his hats!

Mal

Karen said, "Thank you for the mind-enhancing opportunity and gentle, loving care with which you guide us, your "discussers".

Exactly! Sometimes I think Durant is speaking to us here as we go. He and Ariel are enjoying this, too.

Wonderful job, Robby! You are a treasure.

Linda

Hi Jean! Just got back from the office in time to see you re-join us. You were a most active participant in "Democracy in America" and hopefully your obtaining a tape of Durant will help you to be the same here.

Robby

Here is a LONG LIST OF SUPERSTITUTIONS. Do you see any here with which you are familiar or which you believe came down from the "old country" or from even earlier civilizations?

Robby

Superstitions are still a major part of Middle Eastern culture. For example, in Egyptian society, when a new baby is born, the crib, baby clothes, blankets and toys usually display a small turquoise blue bead to "ward off the evil eye." In rural areas, an open eye (painted in blue or green)is often seen on the sides of houses in which a new baby has been born. A large blue bead or piece of turquoise is attached to the entranceway.

Family and friends are certainly pleased to have a new addition to the family, but do not make flattering comments in front of others, such as one hears in the USA. It would be deemed very unfortunate for someone to say "Oh, what a beautiful baby." That's just drawing the attention of the "evil ones." Sometimes a small gold emblem in the shape of an open hand (representing the Hand of Fatimah - the Prophet Mohamed's daughter) is pinned to the baby clothes or given on a delicate chain for a baby girl. This is a symbol seen throughout the Muslim communities and very common as a piece of jewelry. It is usually passed from one generation to the next.

Discussers or discussants? SMILE

Jere

Durant concludes speaking about The Gods of Babylon:--

"Never was a civilization richer in superstitions. Every turn of chance from the anomalies of birth to the varieties of death received a popular, sometimes an official and sacerdotal, interpretation in magical or supernatural terms. Every moment of the rivers, every aspect of the stars, every dream, every unusual performance of man or beast, revealed the future to the properly instructed Babylonian.

"The fate of a king could be forecast by observing the movements of a dog, just as we foretell the length of the winter by spying upon the groundhog. The superstitions of Babylonia seem ridiculous to us, because they differ superficially from our own. There is hardly an absurdity of the past that cannot be found flourishing somewhere in the present. Underneath all civilization, ancient or modern, moved and still moves a sea of magic, superstition and sorcery. Perhaps they will remain when the works of our reason have passed away."

Does anyone believe any more the power of the groundhog? And if no one believes, then why is Groundhog Day in the news every year, present in some calendars, and even the name of a popular movie? Can you share with us some "absurdity of the past" that still "flourishes somewhere in the present?"

Robby

Robby, you were right: superstitution! they really are an institution.

The protection of the blue eye is everywhere in the Mediterranean regions: North Africa, Italy, Turkey, Greece, the surrounding Arab countries. Many of the Arab villages here paint their outside walls in pale blue against the evil eye. It is said that Mohamet had blue eyes, it that the origin of this superstition?

My grandfather was very careful about fingernails clipping, and flushed them away in the toilet bowl, to be sure the evil one would not get them. I remember the Africans too were most careful of their broken nails. They thought that if an enemy got hold of the slivers, that enemy might get control of their body and soul.

Here in Israel, after a death, the family sits and grieves shiva for a week at home and all mirrors are covered with a cloth. It is believed that the soul takes about that time to depart entirely. If it get a glimpse of itself in the mirror, it might be shocked and it would have dire consequences.

There are of course all sorts of talismans written on parchment and worn pinned to the clothes, against illnesses or as protection of a new born against evil eye.

If you compliment someone here, he will spit twice toward East "tffu tffu" and exclaim: careful of the evil eye!

Bubble

Hairy says: "Sometimes I think Durant is speaking to us here as we go. He and Ariel are enjoying this, too".

Do that mean that they are not really dead but in some kind of an afterlife (heaven)?

Bibble:--Thank you for all those examples. I wonder if a number of us humans insist that we don't believe in various superstitions and actually don't believe in them -- YET follow them anyway! My aunt, for example, was as rational a person as anyone could be but when speaking of luck almost always said: "Knock on wood." If there was no wood furniture near her hand, she made it a point to reach over to something wooden so she could knock on it. But of course she didn't believe in that!

Robby

Does that mean that they are not really dead but in some kind of an afterlife (heaven)?

WOW! Eloise! You start off early in the morning with a lulu of a question!!

Robby

Here is an interesting ARTICLE in this morning's New York Times about afterlife, heaven, paradise, etc.

Robby

It is as hard to explain why people believe in God as it hard to explain why leopards have spots. Many people think that they have the found a scientific answer to the question, but it is speculation and scientists themselves admit that sometimes after a long and costly research they can only speculate on how the universe came about. ‘The Big Bang Theory’.

Last year as I was transcribing twenty two-hour long interviews from scientists and astronauts for a television series on space, I felt humbled as they spoke of the frailty of humans and how small and insignificant we are. I heard them say that the universe is so immense, there are billions of galaxies. Imagine, we can’t even get to walk on Mars, which is just a stone’s throw from our planet earth, which is going around our solar system somewhere inside of our own galaxy which has millions of light years in diameter. Joel Primack, an Astrophysicist said in these interviews when asked about whether there were other inhabited planets: “all we see out in space is light, all the rest is theory”.

They warned us about our over-dependency on scientific achievement and discoveries and admitted that science also makes the most horrendous mistakes which, sometimes, put in jeopardy not only the life of a small number of people, but of the whole human race.

As I read about how our life on earth evolved, I read it with a view in mind that science ‘speculated’ on how primitive man lived using very scant samples of bone DNA. Archeologists, historians, anthropologists are scientists and they offer their expertise which still remains a speculation when no proof exists of a theory. Later, when writing was discovered, there are proofs of HOW people lived their daily lives. What is still speculation is WHY they behaved the way they did.

The question remaining is why do people believe in God. Science cannot answer that.

Eloïse

Comment made by someone in a 12-step meeting.:--

"Each of us has our own concept of what or who this higher power is. Even for those of us who are atheists, there must still be a higher power. Perhaps in this case our higher power is simply our own subconscious mind, and calling on this higher power is merely autosuggestion training our subconscious mind to direct our conscious activities. Whatever our individual beliefs may be, calling on this higher power is necessary to bring about the healing that we seek.

"Before we can call on this higher power, we must be at peace with our own beliefs. If we are atheists, and we have no doubts or fears about our beliefs, this may be fine. However, if we have uncertainty, doubts or fears, then we are not true atheists. These doubts and fears cause our lives to drift without direction.

"If we do not have spiritual peace, then we must find it."

Robby

I am most interested to read that article on afterlife, but did not manage to access it, it wont accept my previous ID nor let me reregister as new; I get the same logging page all the time

Could someone email me a copy of it please?

I agree totally with post #909. Unless we are at peace with ourselves as individuals, we drift and search in fear. I don't think there is a way to explain how to get to total serenity. Nirvana. It seems such an personal experience, different for each? Or maybe those imbued with deep faith go through some similar process of revelation, making it easier for them?

Bubble:--I will try later to get that article to you. Perhaps someone else here can help. (It's under the Art section.) In transferring that to you we must keep in mind that it is copyrighted by the New York Times.

Robby

Thanks so much for sharing your life and philosophy with us. It really struck home with me.

MaryWZ

sea bubble says:".....Nirvana. It seems such a personal experience, different for each?..."

The experience itself should not be different, but how we perceive it seems different for each......at this stage...

Robby, re your post # 905, when I don't have any wood nearby, I use my head.:>)

As we move on to the Third Element of Civilization -- Moral Traditions (see GREEN quotes above) -- Durant tells us:--

"Religion had no influence upon the morals of the upper classes in the later centuries, for (in the eyes and words of her prejudiced enemies) the 'whore of Babylon' was a 'sink of iniquity,' and a scandalous example of luxurious laxity to all the ancient world. Even Alexander, who was not above dying of drinking, was shocked by the morals of Babylon."

Durant quotes Herodotus:--

"Every native woman is obliged, once in her life, to sit in the temple of Venus, and have intercourse with some stranger. And many disdaining to mix with the rest, being proud on account of their wealth, come in covered carriages, and take up their station at the temple with a numerous train of servants attending them. But the far greater part do this -- many sit down in the temple of Venus, wearing a crown of cord round their heads...Strangers pass and make their choice. When a woman has once seated herself she must not return home till some stranger has thrown a piece of silver into her lap, and lain with her outside the temple...Some wait for a space of three or four years."

Durant calls this a "strange rite" and wonders if it was a relic of ancient sexual communism or a concession by the future bridegroom of the jus primae noctis or right of the first night. Was it due to the bridegroom's fear of harm from the violation of the tabu against shedding blood? Was it a physical preparation for marriage, such as is still practised among some Australian tribes? Durant says "we do not know."

Your thoughts please?

Robby

"Religion had no influence upon the morals of the upper classes in the later centuries................"

make it:....in the last century.. What has changed?? Robby, like you said before, the more things change, the more they remain the same.

And yet, Hubert, consider the quote above which begins "Their religion..."

Robby

I think there were lots of places in the world, in the tropical islands as well as in Africa where eighty years ago, complete sexual freedom was considered normal among young people until they chose a mate. This could be seen even among minor children who were experimenting or aping the adults, as you prefer. Since most were also going around practicaly naked or just adorned with flowers because of the mild climate, they never had thoughts of shame or uneasiness about their bodies. For them making love was just a natural function or need to be enjoyed. The civilized missionaries brought the teaching of shame and sin to them. Bubble

Bubble:--Your comments bring to mind earlier postings in which Durant cautions us not to judge the moralistic traditions of other civilizations through the lens of our Western or later civilization moral code or the morals of our own sub-culture or generational differences. This is so easy for us all to do. They are ingrained in us from early childhood. THIS is right. THIS is wrong.

Consider the following for example:--

"It was considered permissible for Babylonian men and women to form unlicensed union, "trial marriage," terminable at the will of either party. The woman in such cases was obliged to wear an olive -- in stone or terra cotta -- as a sign that she was a concubine."

Let us compare this with male-female relationships in the early part of the 20th century. Then pause to recollect the societal changes in the latter part of the 20th century. Which civilization had "higher" morals -- Babylon or ours? Which society in America had "higher" morals - that of the early 20th century or the later 20th century? And even within the parameters of Western civilization -- are we talking about America? Canada? Mexico? France? Holland? Italy? Germany? And which age group?

Robby

Neither have 'higher' morals. Each has the morals considered right for their times or their place. What I found wrong was to oblige these people used to their own culture, to become ashamed of it through an exterior foreign influence. Morals seem to be above all conventions fixed by certain rules in a certain period.

To make it easier, I will take another example. Stealing is frown upon in most societies and punished even by the cutting of a hand in some. In Africa, it was very difficult to explain private possession, when the first Europeans came there. The society was so built that what was mine could be yours, and if an object was not in use, anyone could take it. That is unconceivable to our understanding.

I am sorry if I sounded prejudiced. I did not mean to. I was observing a clash of civilizations? Bubble

OOOpss: 1.15 am, the rest for tomorrow, good night!

Reminds me when we lived in the far north and the majority of my husbands workmates were Maoris. He was very annoyed when personal possessions were borrowed out of his locker. Apparently the philosophy there was "What is mine is also yours". This also applied to hospitality. We were invited to many meals and if someone caught fish or gathered shellfish it was all shared. My husbands trainers were often borrowed from his locker and he would have to come home in his work shoes!

Carolyn

Disease has changed some customs/traditions.

Jere

Jere:--Would you expand on that a bit, please?

Robby

i had the chance to live in a small, remote village called naivaka, in mid-eighties fiji. they, also, took and gave freely of possessions. i have never experienced such kindness or caring in my life. still, it was strange and difficult to have to explain to them that the only things i couldn't give them were my ear plugs or swim goggles for swimming, as they could not be replaced for many months. they used goggles made from large bones fitted with pieces of glass and held secure with a vine.

along with a large album of photographs, i sent them a box of goggles and earplugs much later. every christmas i exchange notes with my "sister" from that village. she, like many fijian brides of her time, had her two front teeth knocked out on her wedding night. to show she belonged to someone. if only they'd had a terra cotta olive program.

"The Babylonians were allowed considerable premarital experience" triggered the thought that the same was true in Japan until recently AIDS arrived on the scene. Sex trips to Thailand and Vietnam have declined as the percentage of the population infected climbed.

Then my thought drifted to other practices. My dental hygienist is now covered and shielded like a person leaving for outer space for protection from catching disease from the patient.

Japanese people wear surgical masks to prevent spreading germs or to avoid catching them.

The niumber of people in Japan that wear white gloves for protection is far higher than I have seen anywhere else.

I am sure that with a little research or thought I could come up with several more examples without leaving the topic of disease.

Food comes to mind or herbs

'nuff said? Robby

Jere

The custom, potlatch, of the PNW indian tribes who would give away everything they possessed to gain honor, returns me closer to the topic others are talking about.

Jere

"Despite these strange practices, Babylonian marriage seems to have been as monogamous and faithful as marriage in Christendom is today. Premarital freedom was followed by the rigid enforcement of marital fidelity. The adulterous wife and her paramour, according to the Code, were drowned "unless the husband, in his mercy, preferred to let his wife off by turning her almost naked into the streets.

"Hammurabi out-Caesared Caesar -- 'If the finger have been pointed at the wife of a man because of another man, and she have not been taken in lying with another man, for her husband's sake she shall throw herself into the river.' -- perhaps the law was intended as a discouragement to gossip. The man could divorce his wife simply by restoring her dowry to her and saying: 'Thou art not my wife.' But if she said to him, 'Thou art not my husband,' she was to be drowned."

Robby

How depressing. Either way, the woman loses. Not a whole lot better today, from what I hear of middle-aged women, legally bested and abandoned nearly penniless in divorce so a middle-aged man can acquire a younger wife.

Morals are not necessarily a religious accessory. They epitomize the degree to which a culture has become civilized. An atheist can lead a very moral life; a devoutly religious person can lie, steal, and cheat his way through, begging absolution in his every prayer!

Jeryn says:--"A devoutly religious person can lie, steal, and cheat his way through, begging absolution in his every prayer!"

If this be so, how do we define a "devoutly religious person?"

Robby

Since Robby brings up Hammurabi's Law 132, I guess it's ok for me to comment on it again. It bothered me when I first read the law about finger pointing and it bothers me now. The woman has not been caught in bed with another man. She just stands accused and that is enough to force her to jump in the river. In the opposite situation the man may well be patted on the back for achieving a conquest. the difference in society's Attitude toward the man and the woman has not changed very much. The woman continues to be condemed and the man applauded. The woman wearing the scarlet letter is still grounds for divorce in some U.S. States.

Obviously Jeryn defines a religious person by what they claim to be, rather than what they are.

In the Christian tradition we are taught"by their fruits shall we know them". As a Christian I can mock man but not God and He will judge me.

Devout, I think, refers to an intense level of devotion. One is devout who has an emotional adherence to the practices of a religion. I always think of "pious" when I see devout but they are not really synonymous.I think piety describes adherance but not necessarily with emotional involvement. I really shouldn't write this because I don't think I know what I'm talking about.

Pious is for show and tell. Devout is for real, even if no one is looking or listening.

HOWZAT, the lurker

JUSTIN My thinking coincides closely with yours in #931. Maybe we both dont know what we are talking about.LOL.-- Trevor.

HOWZAT:--Nice to have you come out from hiding occasionally and give us your thoughts!

As for any of us "knowing what we are talking about," no one here (to my knowledge) has ever pretended to be an "expert." We are a group of folks sitting around in our family living room trading thoughts. Sometimes we come up with some profound ones!

Robby

"In general, the position of woman in Babylonia was lower than in Egypt or Rome, and yet not worse than in classic Greece or medieval Europe. To carry out her many functions -- begetting and rearing childrenn, fetching water from the river or the public well, grinding corn, cooking, spinning, weaving, cleaning -- she had to be free to go about in public very much like the man.

"She could own property, enjoy its income, sell and buy, inherit and bequeath. some women kept shops, and carried on commerce. Some even became scribes, indicating that girls as well as boys might receive an education. But the Semitic practice of giving almost limitless power to the oldest male of the family won out against any matriarchal tendencies that may have existed in prehistoric Mesopotamia."

Anyone see similar practices in our time?

Robby

Isn't the man today considered the breadwinner and the head of the household even if the wife works and brings in a good paycheck to help support the family? Aren't men given more respect by bankers, car dealers, insurance dealers, etc.?

I can't begin to tell you the problems I had with these people when I first was on my own as a divorced woman without a husband 27 years ago. Though I learned a lot about automobiles and what to watch out for, I tried always to take a male friend with me when I went to buy a car. The salesman's conversation was directed to him not me, even though it was my money which was buying the car, but at least the salesman didn't try to bilk me in the way he would have if I'd been alone.

Durant says upper class women "were confined to certain quarters of the house, and when they went out they were chaperoned by eunuchs and pages." Lower class women were "maternity machines", Durant tells us, "and if they had no dowry they were little more than slaves."

There's a comment Durant makes which interests me very much. "Morals grew lax when the temples grew rich." Now, why should this be?

Mal

Durant never got around to writing about African civilizations with the exception of Egypt which he placed in the Near East category. So this NY TIMES ARTICLE from this morning is about an African nation but it does relate to the current topic of treatment of women.

Robby

Mal's quote of Durant regarding upper class women being confined to the house or chaperoned when they went out added that "this custom led to the purdah of Islam and India."

I mentioned in an earlier post and I repeat that I am learning more and more that, although he separated them in the interest of better understanding them, these civilizations often lived near each other and influenced each other geographically through trade, for example, or brought down certain customs from earlier civilizations.

Robby

What an interesting article! Mrs. Kemunto, who had a flourishing business cutting girl's genitals said, "We're losing our culture." This statement reminded me that my reaction of horror and utter distaste about this practice is related to my own culture, not the one she knows. The article says that Mrs. Kemunto is probably the last of many generations in her family to do this.

"She's not a bad lady," said Daniel M. Mokaya, the author. "She's not evil. She wasn't trying to hurt girls. But times have changed."

Now I'm wondering if Durant might tell us where such a practice began.

Mal

Mal says:"...Aren't men given more respect by bankers........"

Mal, the bank and the trust company branches I have dealings with do not have a man on their payroll, from management down to the teller. And somehow, I have the feeling men do get more respect there. Now why would that be?? Are men slowly becoming an endangered species in our society :>)

For two months we have been examining the progress of Mankind over the thousands of years through Primitive Man, Sumeria, Ancient Egypt, and now Babylonia. Do any of you here see the male of the species as becoming "endangered?"

Robby

ROBBY No, I see no evidence of men being down graded vis-a-vis women. In NZ, women are asserting their equality with men, they currently hold four of the five senior positions in our governing offices, and a short time ago, they held all five. When they lost the fifth position, there was some loose talk about men reclaiming their rightful place, but no doubt, it was said more in jest , than in serious comment. True, there are one or two wierd social clubs that exclude members of the opposite gender, but they are few and far between these days. In the States, is it similar to NZ?-- Trevor

"The worship of Ishtar suggests a certain reverence for woman and motherhood, like the worship of Mary in the Middle Ages, but we get no glimpse of chivalry in Herodotus' report that the Babylonians when besieged, 'had strangled their wives, to prevent the consumption of their provision.'"

Their provision?

Robby

I was bothered by Durant's term "maternity machines' relating to the lower class or peasant Babylonian woman. Before the introduction of massed-produced birth control devices, every married woman of any time in history faced the same situation.

The great American treck west showed how wives were simply regarded as being pregnant every other year and how giving birth on the way was just part of the whole process of going west. Before the introduction to effective birth control, all women were potential "maternity machines". I wondered why he used that term for the women of Babylonia?

I don't see the male of the species as endangered now, at present.But to really answer Robbys question in 941 honestly I can see the day coming when the male is redundant except for his sperm. Already we can fight a war with 90 days of conflict and 1 soldier killed. The machines and the technical knowledge can be used by either sex. Woman can do all things men do but I know they dont want to at present time in Civilization. Woman still wants mostly to mother her children.This does not make her a maternity machine since she is free to chose how many children she will raise today. She can support them as well as her mate can. And does in our country anyway. But in some science horror movie or book, I forget which, a time came when men were kept in zoo's to look at, and collect sperm from. I wonder why all these men scientists are so dead set on learning the secrets of progeneration and on improving cloning to the point it would be useful.fp

Are men becoming "redundant?" Are they changing in some way? If they do, do they change in cycles? Durant says:--

"When refinement came to Babylon it was in the guise of an effeminate degeneracy. Young men dyed and curled their hair, perfumed their flesh, rouged their cheeks, and adorned themselves with necklaces, bangles, ear-rings and pendants."

What is masculinity? What is femininity? Are they the same in no matter what Civilization? Can the roles reverse or does the male-female relationship remain basically the same? What is the purpose of a female - simply a "baby machine?" And the purpose of a male - simply a source of fertilization?

If so, just what is Civilization and its purpose -- if any?

Robby

"Civilization is social order promoting cultural creation."

- - - Will Durant

Not only is the conversation directed at the male, but unless the male or female insists, then all the transactions will be credited to the male and then when the female has to transact some purchase on her own, discovers she does not have any credit history. This can happen even in a community property state like Washington State even though it is not supposed to happen.

Jere

I posted this yesterday and deleted it because the memories I had every time I read it were so strong in me that I cried. It is the way I feel, however, and I am posting it again.

At the risk of boring you I'll tell you that I was taken from my mother when I was 7 years old and very ill. Every night after I prayed for all the people in the world and those close to me, I prayed first to get well enough to be returned to my mother. Second I prayed that I'd get completely well.

When I was ten years old I had a serious operation and spent months in the hospital and in a nursing home. A muscle was transplanted from my left leg to my back. The doctors and the people who raised me and with whom I lived told me that this surgical procedure would make me well. My mother promised when that happened that I could go home. No matter how hard I tried and how hard I prayed I was no better after that surgery than I had been before.

My mother died when I was 12 years old. It was a crushing, awful blow to me from which I can truthfully say I never fully recovered. For some reason I knew then that I'd never, ever get well; that parts of me would always be paralyzed. It was also then that this young girl I was questioned how the kind, loving God I'd learned about in church could do this terrible thing to my mother and me or anyone in the world.

It took a long time, but eventually I came to know any higher power I had was inside me. When I finally had complete and total faith in me I found serenity. That faith and serenity need to be bolstered and refreshed from time to time, but they are there still.

I have the idea that every one of us is the whole of what we've been through every phase of our lives from childhood to old age. There are times when what I was as a child is dominant and I feel the need for a loving, fatherly God who will make pain and suffering in my life less and protect me from them. I think this may be true of everyone. The adult, older me knows full well the only one who will do this for me is myself, so I gird up my loins, gather my strength and courage and go on to face whatever comes.

I do not personally believe in heaven or an afterlife. For that reason, I live each day in the best way I possibly can. This is my life, and to be miserable in it is a waste of time and emotional energy. I work hard and try to develop any and all potentials I see in me while at the same time giving of them to others. It is my way of life, my strength, and I suppose my religion.

I do not find the same serenity and solace in the rituals and beliefs which bring solace and peace to some. Perhaps it is true that we each believe and do what is best for us individually.

Mal

Thank you, Mal, for opening your inner self to our special "family" here.

Robby

Every post here in these SeniorNet discussions is copyrighted with the copyright held by the author of the post. Recently two posts in this discussion were copied and pasted in another SeniorNet discussion. This is a violation of copyright laws unless the person who does this has permission from the author of the post to copy what he or she has written so it can be posted in another discussion.

This is also true of emails. If you copy and paste an email, or forward an email from somebody not yourself and send it to someone else without permission, you are violating copyright laws and subject to legal action by the original author of the email. There is no violation of copyright laws if you paraphrase in your own words what is in a post or an email.

Mal

Permit me to jump in without having read many of the previous posts. Robbie, you will remember me from the Religion forums.

I was intrigued by the question about men getting better treatment in banks. A banker was once asked which were his favourite customers. The interviewer expected him to answer that his favourites were the ones with the big loans who were paying large amounts of interest.

It turns out his favourite customers were the ones with big bank accounts and those were the ones he respected. The bank makes money by investing that money and pays not much interest.

Thus if you have a large amount of money in the bank, whether you are male or female, you will be treated with respect.

Respect is also part of the atmosphere in a bank from the branch manager on down. The manager sets the tone and the staff reacts accordingly. In the bank I use, everyone gets treated with respect whether they are borrowers or savers.

Sharon:--Good to see you again! May I invite you to read the quotes in GREEN above without having to take the time to read so many previous posts. This will tell you where we are as we move along. We had been comparing the male-female relationship of our day with the male-female relationship of ancient civilizations to see if there had been any change.
As you can see, we have just moved over to the section in Durant's book (Page 248) where we examine the development of language and literature in Babylonia.

Please stay with us and share your thoughts with us.

Robby

Mal:

Your post #950 describes so well the inner child, adult and higher power we have available within ourselves for our own serenity and guidance.

You have given strength, solace and peace to many of us who feel like you do, but are not able to articulate or express our inner selves the same way you do.

Pat

Regarding the position of women. Women are very equal here except in Corporate NZ where a male can get more than $10,000pa more than a female who holds the same position. This is from the horses mouth. My daughter is an I/T employment consultant.

Regarding men being made redundant. My daughter (30) sat in my living room with a friend the other day and said I quote "Oh Blow the men! soon with cloning we won't need them and the male human species will die out!" I was horrified and said so. Daughter replied she was jesting but was particularly irked with males that day and was daydreaming!

Regarding Mal's post I can sympathise with this. When my husband died aged 49 with cancer he had for 6 years I was very angry with God too. However I did get over it and I am a person who needs my beliefs. I am not ashamed to say it!

Carolyn

"Sometimes I sit and wonder
As I'm all alone at night
Are the stars a little brighter
When two people share the sight?
Is the pot of tea now steeping
Much sweeter to the taste
If poured into another's cup
And shared with little haste?
And as you walk upon the beach,
Dodging the lapping tide,
Is not the stroll more pleasant
With a companion by your side?
Ah, yes, I know the answer.
Just sharing means so much.
The world would lose its flavor
If our lives could never touch.

- - - Mary Conner

Robby: The poem echoes a true sentiment but the companion can be male or female. I read Gilamesh many years ago and 'knew' that the Noah story had some basis from it but I was not scholarly enough to see the connections.

I am reading The Red Tent right now which is a novel about Jacob's daughter, Dinah. There is only a little about her in the Bible, she was raped and her brothers took revenge by killing a whole population of enemies. It would seem from this book that I assume had some research before it was written, that women's lives and men's lives were quite separate. As well, men could have many wives. I expect this was to increase the population of their tribes as much as possible.

Robby, please check my response #425 concerning my reference to another's posting in 'Gnostics,...'. I assure you, it will not happen again.

Mal - I respect your capacity to have inner peace and even if I don't wish to have your beliefs, I still love the way your express your inner feelings. I am sad for the life of pain you have suffered.

I was in the country since yesterday, and I can only be thankful for just having the pleasure of being with my family and for everything that I can still enjoy at this stage in life.

This family is ideal in opinion. They have a zest for life. I can really say that my daughter and her husband are equal partners as much in business as in family life. He still remains a man with all his faults and qualities, and the same for her no one dominates the other. The kids are happy, well balanced, respectful, loving and best of all AFFECTIONATE with their grand'mother.

I don't know why Durant does not mention women more often in the mother's role. After all mothers are responsible for giving GREAT men the education they needed later on to achieve GREAT things.

Eloïse

Yes I think it is different when you do have someone to share with. I miss the deep conversations Rod and I had. We would talk about anything and everything. We would have liked to "Save the World together!" We often sat and admired the stars from the cockpit of our yachts.They were very bright!

Carolyn

Mal, I apologize for passing on your posting. It will not happen again. MaryWZ

To ZWYRAM and Dave:--
These were misunderstandings to which all of us humans are prone. As I am not "subscribed" to your forum, I appreciate your letting us know.
Both of you, plus others in your forum, are cordially invited to participate regularly with us in Story of Civilization.
Robby

P.S. I should add, Mary WZ, I only just realized how you created your "screen name." Very ingenious!

Mal - thanks for your clarification on #952. I was under the impression that a message in discussion was public and could be copied as long as who was the author was clearly indicated. I wish I had known that before when I found myself of a BB elsewhere! Is this true for Bulletin boards also?

I read your post before you erased it the first time. I could not comment because I identified to much. You are a spunky lady.

I suppose I did have the 'why me' stage too in adolescence, not in childhood. It was more a curious musing, I never believed I could be made better or put to right one day. My school friends at the convent were more concerned than I was and I was often offered, on their return from Europe, bottles of blessed water from Lourdes. They insisted on rubbing my legs with it while praying aloud. When it did not work, they accused my lack of faith and maybe the fact I was not baptised.

The muscle transplants did work to improve my balance, until recently.

I found that I too believe in my inner self. I do not need more to be contented in my life and to love others. I do believe there is a continuity somewhere sometime. I will experience it when I get there. Meanwhile I do not fear death. I am too serene for that and it is unavoidable anyway. I just wish to depart without too much pain or trouble for the ones surrounding me. My own philosophy of course. I respect the right of others to find their serenity elsewhere. Bubble

Durant continues:--"Scribes were as numerous in cosmopolitan Babylon as in Memphis or Thebes. The art of writing was still young enough to give its master a high rank in society. It was the open sesame to governmental and sacerdotal office. Its possessor never failed to mention the distinction in narrating his deeds, and usually he engraved a notice of it on his cylinder seal, precisely as Christian scholars and gentlemen once listed their academic degress on their cards."

Durant doesn't use the word but is he not talking about vanity, and especially among those who have high degrees and special abilities? Is this a sign of civilization, albeit a negative trait? Did Primitive Man have vanity? In our current day civilization do literate people tend to lord it over "illiterate" people? On the other hand, would we know anything about Babylonia if it were not for the scribes?

Your comments, please?

Robby

Robby - I like that poem very much. Is the poet American?

About men, they will never be redundant: they are so much fun to talk to and both genders are good partners for honing each other's thinking skills. Seriously, I think that genders can be interchangeable in most things in life as was said earlier. But the variety is essential. The thinking process are different, the ways of seeing a problems differ, although you cannot aver one is better than the other. It was said that the brain patterns are different or that males and females used different spots there if I remember what I read in Sagan's book about the Brocca's brain. That was decades ago. I do think women would have better diplomatic skills on the international scene. Bubble

I'm sorry, Bubble. I don't have any facts about Mary Conner.

Robby

Gentlemen still list their academic degrees. I have two in my mailing group who have Ph.D. after their name in the signature as well as the heading.

To be a scribe was I am sure very prestigious and run from father to son in families. We are three cousins doing genealogical research. Grand pa was a rabbi as his dad and grand pa before him. That was the basis of the research. We also know that a new dad would give the name of his father to his first born son. We did see that every two generation we had a first born named Benjamin or Yom Tov, and most often these were scholars, rabbis or scribes and commentators of the Torah.

The earliest reference is around 1275, a Rabbi Yom Tov Castel who wrote a biblical treatise. There are some missing links of course, but it is very clear that this was a much encouraged line of occupation. It must have been so in Babylonian times too. Included the use of names! Bubble

Thank you for that info, Bubble. When we get to Judea, we will be looking for much input from you (in addition to other civilizations, of course).

Robby

Many of you who were with us at the very start of this discussion group on November 4th will recall that we described this forum as a Mystery Story. Along with Durant we were trying to answer the question in the Heading above -- "What Are Our Origins?" You may be intrigued by the following comments by Durant:--

"The decipherment of Babylonian baffled students for centuries. Their final success is an honorable chapter in the history of scholarship. In 1802, George Grotefend, professor of Greek at the University of Gottingen, told the Gottingen Academy how for years he had puzzled over certain cuneiform inscriptions from ancient Persia -- how at last he had identified eight of the forty-two characters used, and had made out the names of three kings in the inscriptions.

"There, for the most part, the matter rested until 1835, when Henry Rawlinson, a British diplomatic officer stationed in Persia, quite unaware of Grotefend's work, likewise worked out the names of Hystaspes, Darius and Xerxes in an inscription couched in Old Persian, a cuneiform derivative of Babylonian script. Through these names he finally deciphered the entire document.

"This, however, was not Babylonian. Rawlinson had still to find, like Champollion, a Rosetta Stone -- in this case some inscription bearing the same text in old Persian and Babylonian. He found it three hundred feet high on an almost inaccessible rock at Behistun, in the mountains of Media, where Darius I had caused his carvers to engrave a record of his wars and victories in three languages -- Old Persian, Assyrian, and Babylonian."

This brings three things to my mind:--

1 - We must never forget that as we fly through sentences and paragraphs, the knowledge contained therein took years and centuries to locate.
2 - Without the "vanity" mentioned earlier, we might not have deciphered such information. Imagine if Darius I had not bothered to brag -- on rock -- his accomplishments in three languages.

Is Vanity all that bad? Any comments?

Robby

EGO

"Affection is one of the most important elements of real happiness and the man whose ego is so enclosed within steel walls that this enlargement of it is impossible, misses the best that life has to offer, however successful he may be in his career......A too powerful ego is a prison from which a man must escape if he is to enjoy the world to the full. A capacity for genuine affection is one of the marks of the man who has escaped from this prison of self." BERTRAND RUSSELL

SCRIBES

If it were not for working in an office as a secretary I would not have known English. Writing all day for more than 20 years taught me more than just how to write it correctly. Copying text is not just a temporary exercise, some of the content is absorbed.

Since I speak French most of the time at home, I must write every day in order to keep up with my English. SeniorNet is the best place because I can feel that I am in conversation with people.

Eloïse

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You can read SeniorNet Policies by clicking the link below.
SeniorNet Policies

Mal:--Many of us in Senior Net had not read these Policies or had forgotten them. Now all of us (in this forum at least) are aware of them. No one here is hurting anyone else intentionally. Let us move onto the future.
Babylonia, anyone?

Robby

I think there are different kinds of vanity. There's the kind which says, "Look at me. Don't you think I'm great to look at and wonderful?", and there's the kind that shows pride in accomplishment.

There are people who would like to be distinguished between what is common and what is not. Most of these people want to leave some kind of reminder, a legacy in a way, about what they have done in their lives. I don't call this boasting vanity. Rather I consider it a sort of immortality, the need for which is probably in most of us.

Babylonians used cuneiform writing. I learned that the word "cuneiform" comes from the Latin. Cuneus in Latin means wedge. Forma means shape. Cuneiform writing consists of wedges and hooks. Some cuneiform writing is ideograms or "picture words". I consider cuneiform writing a great development in civilization.

Mal

Mal tells us:--"I think there are different kinds of vanity. There's the kind which says, "Look at me. Don't you think I'm great to look at and wonderful?", and there's the kind that shows pride in accomplishment."

Which kind of vanity do you folks believe Darius had? Was he possibly thinking of centuries into his future?

Robby

Robby:

Darius could have been looking ahead to future generations.

As I read about these engraved tablets which were found, I thought about gravestones and the inscriptions on them. Many people write what they want put on their gravestones after they die. One of the most wonderful stones I ever saw said, "Frisky as a kitten. That's how I want to be remembered." I thought that was great.

Mal

I remember one time I told a woman in SeniorNet on AOL that I published an electronic magazine (at that time I was doing only one) and had written some novels. I admit having some pride about this, since I started this "career" at the age of 68 at a time when I truly thought things were pretty much over for me.

The woman wrote back to me and told me I had the biggest ego of anyone she had ever come across. I was shocked. I can, however, see why she said what she did.

Mal

I came from a family where vanity was considered sinful. We were not allowed to brag. We could show you our accomplishment without comment however and if you wished to compliment this it was ok. But I never could stand a compliment as I thought it made me "full of pride" therefore sinful. Then I found out that we must be proud of our selves, and it took some growing up for me to overcome some of this "Seven deadly sins" buisiness. As far as the type of vanity that leads to a person listing his/her accomplishments in stone, I had to giggle at Mal's tombstone picture. Yet isn't that what Darius was doing. And are we not glad he did. I think writing is the most important event in the process of Civilization. In the very beginning the Scribes were thought to have powers(magical in some places in the world)beyond the ordinary man. An example you mayunderstand is the magical properties and the awe surrounding Runes. This was simply a written alphabet but became "magic", and powerful, and frightning, in the plain peoples minds.

Perhaps without vain Captains of military who bragged of exploits we would not have all the War stories to this day. I guess a good deal of our history comes from War stories being recounted first around the fire and later written by the scribes. FP

Mal, Thank you for the SeniorNet policy notes. I was asked by the editor of the SeniorNet monthly for permission to use my statements about my post on education. (Vanity here). She made me realize that we need to ask permission. We are all vain to some degree. I personally like people who know who they are both the good and not so good traits. This is confidence to me,but not too prideful.

The Babylonians: After reading about the Babylonians, I have arrived at the idea that one of the reasons they did not leave much of a heritage in literature possibly was because they spent so much time in war. Mary SO CA

"The Babylonian language was written in characters originally Sumerian, but the vocabulary diverged in time (like French from Latin) into a language so different from Sumerian that the Babylonians had to compose dictionaries and grammars to transmit the old 'classic' and sacerdotal tongue of Sumeria to young scholars and priests.

"Almost a fourth of the tablets found in the royal library at Nineveh is devoted to dictionaries and grammars of the Sumerian, Babylonian and Assyrian languages. According to tradition, such dictionaries had been made as far back as Sargon of Akkad -- so old is scholarship. Babylon never achieved an alphabet of its own."

A society where they had dictionaries and grammars and yet the law saw to it that people were killed at the drop of a hat. Were they primitive or civilized?

Robby

Mal - I know you do great research and I was wondering if you could find links to Babylonia depicting houses, streets, clothing, food, crowds, more gardens, vegetation. Not all that perhaps but some would be nice because I like to visualize and it was such a glorious city in its prime. Thanks.

Without vanity, there would be no great conquerors. Civilizations thrive on vanity. Self worth is not vanity and accomplishments don't need to be bragged about. They demonstrate themselves well enough.

Eloïse

Yes there is vanity and a tendancy to think anyone without a degree is a lesser being. However I know a chappie who is working on the Stonehenge formations. He found a mathematical equation which explains something in Physics to do with the way the stones are placed. He has no degree and is now getting emails from academics all over the world who have visited his web site wanting further information. He is also a keen archeologist and has written one book on early NZ civilization it has sold out through his website. Some people get educated through "The University of Life".

Carolyn

Eloise says:--"Without vanity, there would be no great conquerors. Civilizations thrive on vanity."

A most intriguing concept, Eloise. I would appreciate your expanding a bit on this and I would be interested in hearing comments from others on that thought.

Robby

Why did the later inhabitants of Babylonia lose the ability to decipher their language since you say they had dictionaries and grammer books? The same happened in Egypt. When Napoleon arrived there and asked what an inscription said on a monument, the Egyptians were embarassed that they could not tell him. Even though the language changed as you say over time, you would think the people would be interested in what was written, since this would be their history. Even civilizations with no writing had oral history.

What I am asking is how the people lost the ability to know their own history written in stone, on clay tablets, or papyrus, etc. Is it possible with all our forms of communication this could happen to us? Some attribute the loss to being overwhelmed by other groups who did not have the same language or culture. Is this our future?

I once read a book on Egypt translated from Polish (cannot remember the author) about why Egypt lost their knowledge of their past writings. The authors supposition was that Egypt had imported so many slaves for their monument building that they eventually overwhelmed the culture and language and became through miscegenation an entirely different group who compromise Egypt today. They completely lost their ancient history until Europeans became interested and deciphered the Rosetta stone.

Egypt had a glorious past as did Peru, and as a lover of history I am fascinated with both, but I have no connection to either. My history is western European with no connection to the near East, middle East, or far East. But I greatly appreciate the posts of those who do have a connection, and the insights they bring.

Gilgamesh is described in the GREEN quotes above. The Epic of Gilgamesh is indeed just that, a mighty tale told on eleven clay tablets. Those interested in reading it can click onto EPIC OF GILGAMESH and read the entire story.

Robby

Fifi asks:--"What I am asking is how the people lost the ability to know their own history written in stone, on clay tablets, or papyrus, etc. Is it possible with all our forms of communication this could happen to us? Some attribute the loss to being overwhelmed by other groups who did not have the same language or culture. Is this our future?

Fifi also says:--"My history is western European with no connection to the near East, middle East, or far East."

Fifi, that is true of most of us here. In fact, that is exactly why Durant wrote a book about our "oriental" heritage. He realized that most of us who think back no further than Europe are not aware of the effect that the Orient has had on our current Western civilization.

Thank you for posting with us. Please continue to share your thoughts with us.

Robby

Pumkin says:--"After reading about the Babylonians, I have arrived at the idea that one of the reasons they did not leave much of a heritage in literature possibly was because they spent so much time in war."

Any reaction to this?

Robby

The question was asked whether we would know so much about the Babylonians if we couldn't read their language. We would still know a lot because there are other indications of their civilization besides their writing. For instance, the Philistines didn't have a written language but were cultured and artistic. The Hanging Gardens of Babylon, one of the seven ancient wonders of the world could well be the Tower of Babel in the bible. The ruins still exist today and Saddam cleverly hid a lot of weapons near the ruins, knowing that the Americans wouldn't bomb there.

What we get from a written language is the soul of the people - the literature, the poetry and the business dealings. Haven't bills of sale and descriptions of property also been found? As soon as you have groups of people living together, you have a division of tasks and a reason for trade. It is surprising to us in this day and age how far people travelled, considering they had to walk or ride an animal. Of course they didn't have our deadlines as in 'Have that cuneiform tablet of the sale of the property on my desk by Friday or I'll lose my deposit!'

I believe the Egyptians couldn't read their ancient language because the original population was long gone. Egyptians are Arabs. And I must say, a very handsome and beautiful people. Maybe they liked us because we had American dollars but I felt very comfortable there twenty years ago. Archaeologists from Poland were excavating at Queen Hashepsut's temple when we were there so it's no surprise there would be a book about Egypt written in Polish.

As for vanity, where does self esteem stop and vanity begin? If people list their degrees on their business cards, it provides an opening for a conversation because you know what the person's interests are.

"What we get from a written language is the soul of the people." -- A profound thought from Sharon.

Some very interesting posts today - as always.

FIFI - I wonder if some of the Egyptian population were unable to explain the meaning of the hieroglyphs simply because they had never learned to read the symbols. Speaking their own dialects within their families and communities, as well as working on and around the monuments, did not necessarily mean that the workers could read what they carved.

SHARON - I'm going to pass along your comment about the handsome appearance of the Egyptian people to my husband (an Egyptian)! You'll have a friend for life. LOL Although the majority of Egyptians are Arabs, there are many other ethnicities born in the country, as well from elsewere in the Mediterranean region, Central Asia (especially from the Caucaus region), Southern Russia, Ethiopia, Sudan and many from other regions of the sub-Sahara.

ELOISE - I don't think that we will lose our English language entirely, but as has already happened, we may continue to lose the "richness and depth of the English language," especially we Americans who are seemingly given to haste in almost everything, high technology jargon and the "street vernacular" of youth. Rap (from the Afro-American communities) has certainly found its way into American English on a major scale (not only in music, but also in conversation)and a class on Black Dialect designed 20 years ago would be almost unrecognizable in today's classroom. "Fillers" and "drag-lines" are so common in American English that it is often "painful" to listen to teenagers (or someone from Hollywood) for more than a few seconds. This does not bode well for our younger generations.

Mahlia:--But don't gradual changes in language as the generations move along generally emanate from the "voice of the people" rather than from academia?

It still grates upon me to hear that something can be gotten "for free," but that is now accepted. And somehow harass became hassle which is now in the dictionary. It is now OK to "wait up" for someone (I saw this in this Sunday's NY Times Magazine) rather than wait for him.

And then, of course, there are always the local dialects which gradually change the entire language. As Sharon says, this is the "soul" of the civilization.

Robby

ROBBY - certainly academe is an environment unto itself (especially in research), but I was thinking of the changes in the way language is spoken among the general population. Years ago, English as a Second Language was taught in a fairly standardized way. Today it is necessary to incorporate alot of "popular" words and their meanings into the lesson plans. Talking face to face with a young "street-wise" Black American is NOT the same as talking directly to an African youth of similar age. Some of my former Nigerian students complained constantly that they could not understand their American Black host families, nor could the young people int those families understand the African guests. I've stood next to an Egyptian Arab speaking Arabic to an Iraqi Jew, who could not understand what was being said. And the Egyptian could not understand what the Iraqi was saying in a Southern Iraqi Arabic dialect either. Their facial expressions should have been in the cartoons!

Arabic is an enormously rich and culturally diverse language. Classical Arabic, in much the same way as classical Persian (Farsi), is one of the most beautifully expressive languages I've ever heard. It lends itself to the romance of expression (in much the same way that French does) which is just not possible in English.

In my opinion, the biggest influence on the English language in the United States today is television.

Mal

In China those that could write and read after an examination to demonstrate their skills became the Scholar Gentry class which was akin to our Civil Service and was the basis of the longevity and efficiency of the Chinese government.

The point I am making is the importance of the "scribe".

Jere

In my opinion the group with the least influence on the spoken American-English language is teachers of English.Incoming Freshmen at our universities write introductory themes that discourage admission. But we let them in and teach bonehead English in depth the first year. Undergraduate papers can be so poor that they discourage TA's who are forced to read them.

The French Academy is begining to complain that Americanisms corrupt the French language. I have seen recently publications devoted to "street French" so I suppose they have a similar problem to the American. I wonder if there were not similar problems with language when the Sumerians and the Akadians were intermingling. The Semitic elements finally won out but the tablet dictionaries must have reflected the process of transition.I see here in Durant on page 250, top of the page, he refers to this very question. It pays to read the book once in a while. He says,"the vocabulary diverged in time (like French from Latin)into a language so different from Sumerian thet the Babylonians had to compose dictionaries and grammars to transmit the old 'classic' tongue to young scholars and priests".

We are rapidly approaching Post No. 1000 -- for the second time!! As we all know, someone "on high" will soon swoop down, change these 1000 posts into Part 2, place it above with Part 1 (see the Link just below my name in the Heading), and give us a Link to the next grouping of 1000 postings.

When you get there IMMEDIATELY !!! click onto the "SUBSCRIBE" button so that you don't temporarily lose Story of Civilization and, in so doing, possibly lose some of the amazing postings that all of you are making.

Robby

As we move on to the Art of Babylonia (see GREEN quotes above), Durant says:--

"Patiently glazed tiles, glittering stones, finely wrought bronze, iron, silver and gold, delicate embroideries, soft rugs and richly dyed robes, luxurious tapestries, pedestaled tables, beds and chairs -- these lent grace, if not dignity or final worth, to Babylonian civilization. Jewelry went in for a display of yellow metal, and thought it artistic to make entire statues of gold."

What do you folks believe Durant meant by "final worth?" As we describe a Civilization long gone, how would you define "final worth?"

Robby

“Civilizations thrives on vanity”

I know of no nation having more vanity and pride than France.

The king of France, Louis X1V called himself ‘Le Roi Soleil’ (so close to ‘Le Dieu Soleil’). He built monuments to his glory, le Château de Versailles and made France the most pretigious empire of his time. The French language became the language of Kings. The courts of England and Russia spoke French. Perhaps his vanity prevented him from seeing the future of America and ceded Canada to England because he said it was only a ‘few acres of snow’. “It is at Versailles that was signed in 1783 the treaty ending the American War of Independence.” Larousse.

Vanity is the mother of ambition for kings who want to acquire territory and riches of other nations to further their power and glory. They built monuments for themselves with the richest architecture, with the best materials, adorned with the most precious metals available from plunder. Few monuments are ungraceful. Statues of great kings depict handsomeness and grace in a proud stance for future generations to admire for centuries.

Mahlia - I don't remember saying that the English language was losing ground. On the contrary, it is gaining ground and thanks to America it will sweep the whole planet and will influence other languages, even Asian, who happily adopt its lingo, thus sprinking their native tongue with American words, and unfortunately some slang. It takes a great king to redress the language. At the present time, THE PEOPLE RULE.

Eloïse

Could we possibly say, Eloise, that if it weren't for vanity, we of the current generations would know very little about ancient civilizations?

Robby

Durant says, "There were many musical instruments -- flutes, psalteries, harps, bagpipes, lyres, drums, horns, reed-pipes, trumpets, cymbals and tambourines. Orchestras played and singers sang, individually and chorally, in temples and palaces, and at the feasts of the well-to-do."

Below is a link which will take you to a site about Babylonian musical scales. If you've ever studied music, you'll find it as interesting as I do, and you'll learn that the Babylonian scale went backwards compared to the scale we are familiar with and had some half steps where we have whole. I'm always interested in the music of a civilization. It tells me a lot about the people who lived at that time.

Babylonian Music.
I wonder why visual art was a subsidiary and not an independent art? Durant says architecture was "a mass of straight lines seeking the glory of size." This reminds me of some skyscrapers today, including the now gone towers at the World Trade Center. For a people so clever about glazes and enamels, this surprises me a little.

It's interesting that the ziggurat at Borsippa, "The Stages of the Seven Spheres", had stories of a different color. The Babylonians certainly appear to be interested in color and decoration, but it appears as if most visual art was fairly crude. I wonder why?

To me it seems as if visual art is either greatly dependent on the eye or the imagination. Did Babylonian eyes see only color and straight lines without depth and perspective? Of course, the idea of perspective in painting came much later in history.

Mal

"I'm always interested in the music of a civilization. It tells me a lot about the people who lived at that time."

What does it tell you, Mal?

Robby

The music of a civilization also tells me something about the mathematics of a civilization. Scales in Babylonia were done in a mathematical way, for example. When I tried to find pages about musical notation in Babylonia, pages on mathematics at that time invariably came up.

A civilization's music tells me also about the religion of the time and the secularity of that time.

An example of the music of Babylonia are the Hymns to Inanna.

Hymn to Inanna
There are translations of this hymn such as this one.

Translation Hymn to Inanna.

Doesn't this tell you something about the civilization of Babylonia?

Mal

Everything tells me something about a civilization. I have a collection of cookbooks, for example, from all over the United States, written at different times in our history. I also own many cookbooks from other countries, some in the language of those countries. The food of a country or civilization tells you about that civilization, as do the clothes, the kinds of houses that existed, etc., etc., etc.

Mal

Mal - I read your link "Hymn to Inana". Beautiful. If writing was almost new in Babylon, they knew enough about literature to express deep emotion.

Babylonian houses

Babylonian clothes

Eloise's 981 post and Robby's 983 caused me to think about the vanity and successes of General George Patton during WW2.

General Patton was a West Point graduate who loved publicity, a strict disciplinarian, a Prima Donna who was big on glory, glamour and the gung-ho spirit. He read the Bible, but believed he was a reincarnation of Hannibal

Although he was one of the American Army's foremost intellect in the study and conduct of modern armored warfare, and was superb in his oratory, he was a mixture of genious and madman, and had little tolerance for any signs of weakness in any soldier under his command.

The General wanted his troops to be always moving forward, and demanded that they fight as a team with discipline and aggressiveness, no matter the cost or the odds, but he had no knowledge of the mental damage that could result in an individual who had been exposed to shell fire over a long period of time, without any rest or sleep, constantly watching his buddies getting wounded, and dying.

The combat soldier had a more realistic view of the situation than the General and regarded modern warfare as a meatgrinder.

The soldiers knew that during the fighting General Patton had a warm bed to sleep in, while the troops were freezing in their foxholes under continual shell fire without rest or sleep, and they took a dim view of his go-get-em rhetoric and his thrusting high risk tactics.

They remembered the many casualties and huge losses of equipment that had occured at Kasserine Pass in Africa when these tactics had been unsucessfully used. After that battle the press called him "Old Blood and Guts". The soldiers muttered, "Yeah, his guts, our blood."

The frontline soldiers joked about about General Patton's penchant for publicity, and his habit of always roaring forward to his fighting units in a big command car with pennants flying, but returning to his HQ in a cub spotter plane, He never wanted his troops to see him going in the "wrong direction".

In Africa and Sicily in 1942 and 1943 the army had lost most of the regular career combat soldiers, who had served together not only in battle, but in the precedent amphibious, judo and ground hand to hand combat training in the U.S.

These men had bonded together like brothers, developed a solid state of comradeship, and protected each other's backs in combat, when conditions were "snafu".

This was a strong internal motivator in battle, and the men had learned to esteem and respect each other not only for their individual bravery, but for their combat abilities.

By August of 1943 a great number of the original troops had been put out of action, and the army needed many replacements to fill in the gaps in the ranks of the fighting units.

The replacements were a combination of young, inexperienced officers and men who had not been trained up to the combat standards of the original soldiers, and this took its toll in the battle zones during the following years of the war.

At the front, discipline was forgotten, orders were ignored, and sometimes not only the enlisted men, but also the officers broke down under the constant strain, tension and shell fire after seeing a comrade instantly lose his life, arms , legs or his head.

Some officers would become disoriented, freeze, and would become unable to command, and then depended on the N.C.O.'s to lead the platoons in the ensuing fracas. In WW2 this inability to function normally was called battle fatigue, but is now called post traumatic syndrome, a condition that is going to be very prevalent among the survivors of the recent destruction in N.Y.C. and the Pentagon

I think often not only of the veterans who died in WW2, but also those surviving veterans who still suffer from the long time effects of P.T.S.D.and the resulting effects on their families.

In spite of General George W.Patton's mixed record and his idiosyncrasies, the soldiers who served under him and who participated in his victories in Africa, Sicily and Europe now excuse and forgive his past human fragilities, and are now proud to say, "I served under Gen. George W. Patton in WW2.

Pat Bruyere ( Former army S/Sgt.)

Mal - Thank you, I will feast on ancient costumes, jewelry, hairdos and fashion for a while now.

Patrick - But Patton helped WIN the war. Wars are won with the blood of soldiers unfortunately. He was an orator too? I guess that that is needed also to give courage to fighting men. I am thinking of Winston Churchill, with his great oratory skills the British had enough courage to go through endless bombardments and privation during WW11. Oratory is a mighty weapon, Hitler had it even without much formal education.

Eloïse

Patrick:

Your post on vanity and General Patton was most interesting. As a child I visited my grandparents farm in middle Tennessee and got to see those young soldiers you talked about in Pattons army. They did their manuvers and training on my grandparents farm and others that joined their property. The colonel lived in my grandparents house, and General Patton had his headquarters in the local high school gym. Many of these young men were killed in battle, and photos from that era in my grandparents albums contain a picture of General Patton standing in the back of a jeep with a baton in hand addressing some soldiers. I don't know where this picture was made, but he has the air of commander about him.

The page accessed through the link below shows a great many things about Babylonia, including maps and an image of the Stele of Hammurabi.

The Life and Times of the Babylonians

www.dogpile.com is a multisearch engine all in one. Anyone ever try it?

Linda

Here is a picture of the Hanging Gardens in 600 B.C.

http://home.echo-on.net/~smithda/hanginggardens.html

I have been most interested in trade beads, as they were so important to the Indian tribes of this part of the country. I recently read in a trade bead journal about the beads of Babylonia. (Now that cought my attention!) It stated that the Babylonians traded with Badakhshan for gold, silver,turquoise and lapis lazuli. Obsidian, gold and silver came from Anatolia, copper from Khirokita and so on, and the trade was always in raw materials rather than finished products that were manufactured for wear by the people that made the imports. There were extensive trade routes in all directions out of Babylonia in the business of procuring materials for jewelry. (There was even a map showing the various routes.)

An ancient cemetery at Ur contained vast quantites of glass beads.

When a town's political fortunes veered downward, the craftsmen relocated, either willingly or by force, and took their style, techniquies and secrets with them. Cylinder seal beads were first made in Mesopotamia about 3,500 BC. I underatand that everyone had a bracelet with a personal cylinder seal on it as a fashion statement. Styles in jewelry are very interesting.

My oldest daughter has worked extensively with refugees and can tell what area a person comes from by their jewelry. She told me a story of asking a woman who had come to her office if she were Cambodian. The woman was stunned that my daughter would know. It was by the particular style of her jewelry.

About Patton. Whatever he was, his troops believed in him. I know, because my husband went in on Omaha Beach, then was tranferred to the Third Army after his First Army outfit was wiped out. I suspect that they are all running around Valhalla fighting their wars. I was left to raise the children. Mutter, mutter, grrrr.

And changing language!!! My youngest daughter has been living in Germany for the last 25 years and is in shock when she pays a visit to her own family in Portland, Oregon. My oldest daughter is married to a Black American and the English that my grandsons speak is almost impossible for my youngest daughter to understand. She goes back to Germany in a state of culture shock! My pet peve is the growing use of "em" for "them". Just what is so wrong with "them"?

I gather that the consensus here is that vanity is generally disliked on a short term basis but that this personality trait is one of the prime movers toward long-range accomplishment and remembrance. In other words, the average citizen of Babylonia, Ancient Egypt, and Sumeria lived on a humble day-to-day basis and is forgotten, whereas the ruler thought far ahead of his own life. We find ourselves talking about the Pharaohs, the kings, and queens -- not the humble peasant.

Compare the quote above which begins with "Hardly any . . ." with the majesty of the Pyramids or the passed down memories of the Hanging Gardens.

Robby

Mal, Linda - Your links are absolute treasures to keep.

Ellen - You can say that again about the corruption of languages. Quebec is a good example and it is strange that so many francophone Africans speak such beautiful French even if they have little education, where here I once heard a University Professor express himself in the most attrocious French. A lively language like English is bound to suffer some modification. Someone should eliminate useless letters like the 'gh' in thought, bought, night. Language should be written as it is pronounced like Italian, each letter right to the end of the word.

"Language should be written as it is pronounced like Italian, each letter right to the end of the word."

Spanish is nice like that, too. English is crazy. Like "enough" and "through" and "brought."

Quien sabe?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I remember a former graduate student in English who wrote his dissertation on the topic of the "correct way to spell English words" and eliminated all of the gh's (and other letters) that he considered unnecessary. He worked with a linguist and a speech pathologist (both of whom were on his dissertation committee). His work was very interesting and convincing.

"Houses were built of dried mud or, among the rich, of brick. They seldom knew windows and their doors opened not upon the narrow street but upon an interior court shaded from the sun. Tradition describes the better dwellings as rising to three or four stories in height.
"The temple was raised upon foundations level with the roofs of the houses whose life it was to dominate. Usually it was an enormous square of tiled masonry built, like the houses, around a court. In this court most of the religious ceremonies were performed.
"Near the temple, in most cases, rose a ziggurat (literally "a high place") -- a tower of superimposed and diminishing cubical stories surrounded by external stairs. Its uses were partly religious, as a lofty shrine for the god, partly astronomic, and an observatory from which the priests could watch the all-revealing stars. The great ziggurat at Borsippa was called "'The Stages of the Seven Spheres.' Each story was dedicated to one of the seven planets known to Babylonia, and bore a symbolic color.

"The lowest was black, as the color of Saturn. The next above was white, as the color Venus. The next was purple, for Jupiter. The fourth blue, for Mercury. The fifth scarlet, for Mars. The sixth silver, for the moon. The seventh gold, for the sun. These spheres and stars beginning at the top, designated the days of the week."

Any architecture like that nowadays? Made of mud? Made of brick? Doors opening on an interior court? No windows? Exterior stairs?

Robby

"Ceramics, though seldom producing rememberable pottery, became the most characteristic art of the ancient Near East. Despite such aid, Babylonian architecture remained a heavy and prosaic thing, condemned to mediocrity by the material it used. The temples rose rapidly out of the earth which slave labor turned so readily into brick and cementing pitch. They did not require centuries for their erection, like the monumental structures of Egypt or medieval Europe. But they decayed almost as quickly as they rose. Fifty years of neglect reduced them to the dust from which had been made."

Ashes to ashes and dust to dust . . .

Robby

Any architecture like that nowadays? Made of mud? Made of brick? Doors opening on an interior court? No windows? Exterior stairs?

Certainly! All throughout Central Asia, rural communities in the Middle East, Africa, Asia (particularly in the Szechuan Province of China)and perhaps other global regions of which I am not aware, but others may be. I've been in similar structures in the Southwestern USA, but the building material is adobe (not just mud) and certainly not brick (too expensive).

In terms of the changes to the English language, our newspaper had an article on words disliked by people. It was on a site from Sault Ste. Marie university in Michigan but the website won't come up for me. Then today there was a phone-in program where people were also talking about words and phrases they didn't like. Using 'impact' as a verb, 'awesome' for something that isn't, 'exactly' instead of I agree, and the most horrid of all: 'How September 10th'.

My children also didn't get the kind of grounding in grammar that they should have. My daughter used to write in a stream of consciousness, convoluted sentence structure. I would try to correct it and she wouldn't let me. Then she'd bring home her paper and it would have a really good mark. What do I know, I thought. When she went to university, she had to take the English course that should have been taught in public school. Now she is a good, clear writer.

Mal: Thanks for all those wonderful Babylonian links. I listened to the music sample and if it is typical, they didn't play chords or skip notes when playing a phrase. I wondered if playing thirds and chords is a leap in musical thinking like building arches rather than lintels are a leap in architectural thinking. As for perspective, it took a long time to develop the rules. The murals on walls in Pompeii have a very shallow depth. Art was rather flat for centuries and in a university course, I learned that the church was against perspective. When Giotto painted a virgin and child, he was really taking a chance and if you look at his work, (I'll look for a link), you will see the struggle with perspective.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I am reading The Red Tent about Dinah, Jacob's daughter. The book mentions all the Gods listed in that Hymn to Inanna. The author may have used the link for her research.

When I read the link about the Life and Times of the Babylonians and got to the list of months, I said 'Oh my'. Here are the Babylonian months and on the right, the modern Hebrew months.

 
Nisan - Nisan 
Iyyar - Iyar 
Sivvan - Sivan 
Tammuz - Tammuz 
Ab - Av  ( In Hebrew the B and the V are the same shape but the B has a dot in the middle) 
Elul - Elul 
Tisri - Tishrei 
Marchesvan - Cheshvan 
Kislev - Kislev 
Tebet - Tevet 
Sebut - Shevat 
Adar - Adar

Our provincial museum had an exhibit of ancient Syrian culture, gods, tools, weaving, agricultural implements. The artifacts went back 20,000 years. They had the weights used in weaving, pottery, all kinds of things up to the Middle Ages. It was fascinating. I was amazed how much managed to survive until our present time when we have the knowledge and understanding to preserve the past.

Patrick: I remember your General Patton story from another forum but I think you had a joke at the end of it. I always find your posts interesting.