Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin ~ Book Club Online

[JoanK]

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Team of Rivals by Doris Kearns Goodwin

"More books about Abraham Lincoln line the shelves of libraries than about any other American. Can there be anything new to say about our 16th president? Surprisingly, the answer is yes. - ..... Doris Kearns Goodwin has written an elegant, incisive study of Lincoln......." - New York Times The Team: William H. Seward Salmon P. Chase Edward Bates .........      Links: NPR Review Wilmot Proviso Dred Scott Decision Kansas-Nebraska Act Fugitive Slave Law

March 15 -Chapters 8-11 March 22 - Chapters 12-15

.........

March 29 - Chapters 16-19 April 5 -      Chapters 20-23 April 12 -    Chapters 24 -26

To Consider in Chapters 16-20 1.  Lincoln has been criticized for firing General McClellan.  Was he right to do so?  Would you have waited longer for results 2.  Can a President have political friends while in office?  Can he have friends in the community? 3.  Congress, or the Republican majority in Congress, passed the Homestead Act, the Morrill Act,  the Pacific Railroad Act, and the Legal Tender bill.  Were all these bills helpful to the country?  What did they accomplish? 4/  What were the circumstances that forced Lincoln to issue the Emancipation Proclamation?  Why did he do it at this time and what did it accomplish?  5.  How did Chase, Seward and Bates react to the proclamation? 6.  Lincoln’s proposal that the freed slaves form a colony in another country was outrageous. How could a man with such acuity be so wrong in his view on African Americans?  7.  Newspapers were paramount in communication in the 19th and 20th centuries.  Will they survive in the 21st? 8.  As Lincoln said “In great contests, each party claims to act in accordance with the will of God.  Both may be and one must be wrong.  God can not be for and against the same thing at the same time.”  What are your thoughts on the subject? 9.  Seward said “What is the use of growing old.  You learn something of men and things but never until too late to use it.”  (pg.480)   What are your thoughts? 10.  Seward was the scapegoat for the defeat at Fredericksburg.  Why?  11.  What was the purpose of the Committee of Nine? 12.  What is the meaning of the phrase “fire in the rear.” 13.  Of all the men Lincoln associated with, whom would you most like to get to know or read his autobiography? 14.  What did Chase, Seward and Bates contribute to the war effort?   Discussion Leaders: Ella & PatH Saved for heading Thanks, Joan

[Ella Gibbons]

NEW QUESTIONS ARE UP FOR US TO CONSIDER!

MYSTIC CHORDS OF MEMORY.  mystic="mysteriously symbolic; inspiring a sense of mystery and wonder." (American Heritage Dictionary) 

Goodwin's title for Chapter 12.  Obviously (or was it?) she was referring to President Lincoln.  And he is ensconced at the Willard awaiting his inauguration.  Remember for awhile, the nation wasn't sure where Obama was going to reside in Washington before the inauguration; ss I heard that a Middle Eastern businessman had booked Blair House, did you hear that also?

The Blair family is very much in evidence in the book, see this site:

http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/wash/dc25.htm

The house doesn't look very stately on the ouside, does it? 

I am struck on the very first page (323) at the sentence that Lincoln would reduce complex ideas to paragraphs and sentences as I am in awe of Obama (mystic Obama?) being able to speak on so many complex issues facing the nation, knowing that every word is being scrutinized by upteen hundreds of media of all kinds.  He does make generalized statements, but then I wouldn't even attempt those would you?

[Jonathan]

Jean, you set a fine example in questioning the things you read and hear. Things don't always add up. I enjoyed this from your post, #157:

"
I remember hearing some L expert talk about the fact that L was the atty for one of the railroads and made very good money and was one of the wealthiest men in Illinois at the time."

The wealth hardly shows up in the Lincolns' modest life style. Their home seems substantial, but hardly impressive. Are there any facts regarding Lincoln's actual income? Being described as a railway attorney doesn't tell us very much. I doubt if he could be thought of as a corporate lawyer, as for example Edwin Stanton, the NY attorney, and future Sec. of War. More likely that he acted on behalf of railways in some of the countless little lawsuits as the railways laid their tracks across the countryside.

We got a pretty good impression of how meanly Lincoln was regarded by the country's preeminent lawyers in the McCormick 'Reaper' case, to be tried in Chicago. He was brought into the case by the NY lawyers who felt that

'Since the case was to be tried before a judge in Chicago, (it was decided to) to engage a local lawyer who "understood the judge and had his confidence," page173

It was cruel to see Lincoln dumped when the case was tried in Cincinnati. Stanton snubbed Lincoln, but nevertheless so impressed him that it earned him Lincoln's confidence and eventually a place in Lincoln's administration.

[PatH]

Remember for awhile, the nation wasn't sure where Obama was going to reside in Washington before the inauguration;  I heard that a Middle Eastern businessman had booked Blair House, did you hear that also?



The house doesn't look very stately on the ouside, does it? 

That incident made a big flap here, where we take our political celebrities very seriously.  Blair House is used for official purposes, and can't be "booked" by private individuals.  Obama requested that he and his family stay there before the Inauguration--a common thing to happen.  Bush regretted that the house had already been committed.  It turned out, that the only person who would be staying there was one lone Australian official, here for some conference.  Since the adjacent houses have been combined on the inside with Blair house, and there are dozens of bedrooms and separate suites, it does seem like something could have been worked out.  The Obamas stayed at the Hay-Adams, at considerable expense.

That picture doesn't do it justice.  It looks quite elegant.

[PatH]

Stanton snubbed Lincoln, but nevertheless so impressed him that it earned him Lincoln's confidence and eventually a place in Lincoln's administration.

Jonathan, that's a good example of Lincoln's rare gift of not letting personal slights get in the way and not holding grudges.  Stanton's firm did pay Lincoln, though.  Lincoln sent the check back, saying he hadn't done anything to earn it, but when the firm sent it again, he cashed it.

Stanton hesitated to take the offered position of secretary of war because it would mean a reduction of income from $50,000 to $8000. (p 410)

[Ella Gibbons]

JONATHAN AND JEAN  -  an interesting speculation.  I don't know how much Lincoln was worth at his death; I do know that during his lifetime it was certainly not enough to keep up with Mary's debts.   I wonder how much presidents were paid in those days (and you would have to compare the figure to that of today's salary of $400,000 - I think it is). 

LUCKY made this statement:  "Historians believe that if the English had come to the aid of the south, the south would have been the victor."   There are probably many reasons why they didn't, although the Confederacy believed they would or expected they would.  England had outlawed slavery in their country long before the Civil War and did not believe they should support it in America and  the Northern blockade of their ports was another reason.  I'm sure there are others.

LUCKY also posted about Lincoln's attitude toward the slaves which is ignored too often probably, due to the Emancipation Proclamation.  That was a good post, LUCKY, thank you. 

[Ella Gibbons]

INAUGURATION DAY, 1860.  On this day the Washington Monument was only one third of the way to its height, the new Capitol dome two years away from completion and most of the streets unpaved,  and 52-year-old Lincoln appeared  in a new black suit and top hat and stated his ongoing propositions that, in summary:

1)  he will not interfere with the institution of slavery where it exists;

2)  the Fugitive Slave Law will continue to be enforced;

3)  he will continue to support an "unbroken Union" stating "we cannot separate"

Closing with the lovely statement “the mystic chords of memory….will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely as they will be, by the better angels of our nature."  Pure poetry.

The country was only 84 years old.  Today it is only 233 years old.  We are so very young I think, do you agree?  At an age when people are living into the nineties,  it is roughly 3 generations ago.  That doesn’t seem right, but…………..

One man. who lives on in history, was sorely troubled by Lincoln’s statements.  Frederick Douglas, a former slave, an author of a autobiography,  believed that Lincoln had "groveled” before the foul and withering curse of slavey"  We will read more of him later.

ISN’T SEWARD AN INTERESTING CHARACTER!  He’s so thunderous! 

Another character introduced is Charles Francis Adams, Jr. -  a great grandson of John Adams.  See

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Francis_Adams,_Jr.

----------------------

[Ella Gibbons]

NOW WE MUST ANSWER QUESTIONS NO. 1 above.  Anyone? 

[Ella Gibbons]

IS EVERYBODY ON SPRING BREAK?  WHERE ARE YOU ALL?

As this is a political, albeit historical, discussion I think it is okay to just say what I thought of our president's press conference last night.  He reminded me a bit of Teddy Roosevelt, who was fearless taking on the huge corporations of his day.  Obama is going to take on the Pentagon, Medicare, Congress, lobbyists - fearless!  No guarantee that anything is going to work but isn't he confident?

[PatH]

Now, when it seems imminent, with his southern senate colleagues packing up and saying goodbye, Seward becomes conciliatory and influential with Lincoln to be likewise in his inaugural address. The first attempt by Seward to determine Lincoln's course of action. Seward loved his Union as much as Lincoln, but it wasn't Seward who was about to take the oath to preserve it. An oath is a pretty grim business.

(I added emphasis here by putting your sentence in bold.)

Seward suggested a number of good changes to the speech, most of which Lincoln made.  At this point he still thought he was the better man and would be the power behind the throne.  On p. 326 Goodwin quotes Seward saying bitterly he "...had to stand aside and see it (the nomination) given to a little Illinois lawyer."

He soon started to learn differently.  He was in favor of evacuating Fort Sumter, and, assuming he was "the power behind a weak president", thought this was what Lincoln would do.  Lincoln's decision to reinforce the fort horrified him, but his attempts to take over policy met with a firm stone wall.  "..if this must be done, I must do it" Lincoln, p. 343.

Gradually Seward came to recognize Lincoln's quality and firmness, and the relationship settled down in the way Lincoln had hoped--Seward still expressed opposing views when he had them, and argued with Lincoln, but he knew that ultimately all decisions were Lincoln's, and even realized that Lincoln was the better man.

[Ella Gibbons]

Hello Pat.  Well, while we wait for the others to post shall you and I talk?  ]"Lincoln's quality and firmness."   Good traits in a president, right! 

While the cabinet dilliad and dallied (sp?) Lincoln had decided to fortify Fort Sumter knowing that this would, no doubt, provoke the southern states to secede. All the cabinet agreed with his decision except Seward and one other member.  Later Lincoln said of this decision "of all the trials I have had since I came here, none begin to compare with those I had between the inauguration and the fall of Fort Sumter."

Seward, although all agreed he was the one person who had Lincoln's ear, continued to oppose the decision to fortify Fort Sumter and proceeded to attempt to involve foreign nations in the affairs of the nation.  I had to smile at this statement he made:  "there was no great difference between an elected president of the United States and an hereditary monarch.  Neither truly run things.  The actual direction of public affairs belongs to the leader of the ruling party."  (pg.342)

And a president has tried, and is trying, to fight Congress from the beginning of our republic.  Such is democracy!

[Jonathan]

What a challenge for a new president. 'With no idea if anything is going to work.' It certainly does invite comparisons with Lincoln's situation when all the uncertainties over secession were brought to a head the day after his inauguration with Fort Sumter.

'Later he confessed "of all the trials I have had since I came here, none begins to compare with those I had between the inauguration and the fall of Fort Sumter. They were so great that could I have anticipated them, I would not have believed it possible to survive them." ' p340

1.  Could Lincoln have avoided war by giving in to the South’s demands?

It seems to me Lincoln had gone as far as he could in reaching out to the South without risking his support in the North. Besides he was just as disappointed as anyone over what the South had got with the Dred Scott decision. We're told that Lincoln was dismayed by the role of the SC in the slavery issue, losing faith in the judicial branch of the government. Doesn't that sound familiar?

What a lot of political considerations Lincoln had to balance in deciding on a course of action with Fort Sumter, not the least of which were those which might affect the affiliations of the uncommitted southern states, as well as the border states.

DKG tells us:

'Critics later claimed that Lincoln had maneuvered the South into beginning the war.' p346

Perhaps. One should expect him to make some calculated moves. It must have been a relief to call out the 75,000 miliatia men with his call to arms.

Frances Seward plays a curious role in the crisis. She preferred Auburn to Washington. Seward did prefer her to stay away, since

'...he knew they (colleagues and president) would argue about the purpose of the war.' 356

Frances, we've been told, was on the war path, writing her husband that:

'God has heard the prayer of the oppressed and a fearful retribution awaits the oppressors.' p356

Lincoln chose to see the coming conflict as 'the battle to save the Union.' 'An even larger purpose than ending slavery.'

'I consider the central idea pervading this struggle is the necessity that is upon us, of proving that popular government is not an absurdity...if we fail it will go far to prove the incapability of the people to govern themselves.' 356

That was statesmanship and good politics.

[Ella Gibbons]

Hi Jonathan!

Isn't this a confusing situation to post about?  So much happened in the days right before and after Lincoln's inauguration, enough to make an ordinary person dizzy and open a few  antidepressant bottles!  Good thing Lincoln was no ordinary person; even though he said he was unable to sleep well!

How to save the country!  Not an enemy on our shores, but our own countrymen!

Even Washington had urged to be aware of "the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts."

Those framers of the Consitution tried to envision everything, didn't they?

I don't know how Lincoln could have avoided war either?  A Peace Conference was called that attempted to avoid it; it's a very complicated situation and historians have argued this point for decades.  Just read this, which is  a sample, and you understand a little of why there are so many books written about Lincoln:

http://www.tulane.edu/~sumter/Reflections/Reflections_intro.html

[Ella Gibbons]

Regarding Fort Sumter and the responsibility for the Civil War: (quoting from the above source)

"The most intense debate has focused on Lincoln, some of whose critics at the time, as well as later, held him responsible for the war and contended that he deliberately provoked the South into firing on Fort Sumter. In their view, Lincoln deliberately and disingenuously fixed the onus for starting the war on the Confederacy. To be sure, scholars have also investigated the Confederate government, and some hold it accountable for the fighting. But it is Lincoln's decisions and motives that have been most closely scrutinized.

Lincoln was not the first, or last, President to be accused of acting deceitfully and provocatively in order to advance broader military or political objectives. In an earlier period, President James K. Polk was charged by opponents, including Lincoln himself, with initiating the Mexican War by sending American troops into disputed territory. In more recent American history, some critics assailed Franklin D. Roosevelt for maneuvering the United States into World War II, and Lyndon B. Johnson was alleged to have used an ambiguous incident in the Tonkin Gulf to widen the Viet Nam War.

The controversy over who was responsible for the "first shot" of the Civil War raises substantial moral and political issues. Americans have long and proudly considered themselves a peaceable people, who repel aggression but do not initiate war. Fortunate circumstances, including isolation from Europe and the presence of few and weak neighbors, partly explain the existence of the idea of America as a peaceful oasis in a contentious world"

[JoanK]

At this point, I don't see how Lincoln could have saved the union. Every attempt at conciliation had been met by anger from the South. His only choices were to fight, or let the south secede and become a separate country without fighting. As PatH pointed out in conversation one day, that might have avoided war if the country had been fully settled, but there was bound to be conflict over which "state" the territories would join. Perhaps it would have been endless fighting at the border, like India and Pakistan. I don't see any way this could have ended well.

What could have happened better, I think, was this: the wear could have ended more quickly with much less loss of life. Basically, the Union was much stronger than the Confederacy, and should have been able to win quicker and more decisively IMO. Several things stood in the way of this: McClellen's reluctance to fight and Lee's skill.

In addition, this was the (or one of the) first wars fought with really effective guns and artillary. The Union generals often didn't appreciate the changes this should have made in strategy, and tried to fight in the old way: lining up on two sides and charging. This necessarily led to a huge loss of life, as whole armies were just mowed down (as in Pickett's charge at Gettysburg).

Anyway, those are my opinions.

[mabel1015j]

I've been on a roller-coaster of feelings about Seward. During the Cabinet process i had decided that he was so self-centered that i would take back my offer of marriage to him that i proffered to Ella's first question of the discussion.... LOL. ....But he settles down and becomes a rational human being, as Pat mentioned.

We see that newspapers were no more kind to AL in analyzing his speeches than they have been to recent presidents. One of my favorite reasons for studying history is that we don't need to get too excited and exercised about events of today, thinking they are unique, because we can know that the behaviors are not new. There seem to be behaviors that are just apart of the human condition and they keep appearing over and over as we look at history. That gives me both solace and depression. Solace that things are not more terrible than they have ever been and depression that we never seem to solve many problems, or that humans are always going to behave in similar ways, no matter what period of time, or what society/govt tries to do about them.

Pres Obama must have been relieved when reading TofR to know that he would not have hoards of people standing in the halls of the WH assaulting him as he walked thru as AL did. CAn you imagine?

Q#5 - i knew that AL suspended the writ of habeas corpus, so i was not surprised, but it is an issue that has bothered me since i learned about it, years ago. AL and the capitol were in much more serious danger than the gov't  had ever been, so i can understand his reasoning, but i think it was a bad precedent that, as we have recently seen, can now be used by presidents. He, of course, may not have given that much tho't at the time, thinking that his priority of saving the Union was more important than following the constitution - but -  that's the rationale used by the Cheney/Bush admin under much less dire circumstances IMO. I am amazed by conservatives who generally stand up for the strict adherance to the constituion, who supported the B/C decision on that issue. I wonder what BArry Goldwater would have said to GWB. Do any of you know if Buckley had made any comment about it? .........................jean

[PatH]

Jean, I, too, was much bothered by Lincoln's suspension of Habeas Corpus, albeit under somewhat limited circumstances.  Do you know if the power was actually used to any extent?

He, of course, may not have given that much tho't at the time, thinking that his priority of saving the Union was more important than following the constitution

The fact that he wasn't following the Constitution shows how seriously Lincoln took the threat.  All through the book, we have seen Lincoln regarding the Constitution as not quite sacred, but almost so, the most important document our country has, only to be changed by lawful process and to be followed scrupulously.

[PatH]

In fact, almost everything Lincoln has done so far goes back to this.  The Constitution is the great document that shaped a bold new experiment--representative government, in which everyone has the chance to make what he can of himself (at least if he's male).  If the Union splits, this type of government is a failure.  If it can split once, it will do so again, and it means that men aren't capable of governing themselves by this system.

The minor motive in some of his actions is his firm determination to keep the commitments he feels bound to, either by the party platform or his own promises.

[PatH]

The events in this section gave rise to the Maryland State Song, though it wasn't adopted until 1939.

"The nine-stanza poem, "Maryland, My Maryland," was written by James Ryder Randall in April 1861. A native of Maryland, Randall was teaching in Louisiana in the early days of the Civil War, and he was outraged at the news of Union troops being marched through Baltimore. The poem articulated Randall's Confederate sympathies. Set to the traditional tune of "Lauriger Horatius" ("O, Tannenbaum"), the song achieved wide popularity in Maryland and throughout the South." (quote from the link below)

It's awful doggerel, and singing it to Tannenbaum doesn't make it any better, but I'm amused that my state song calls for revolt against the government.  Here's a bit of it.  The "despot" is Abraham Lincoln.

I
The despot's heel is on thy shore,
    Maryland!
    His torch is at thy temple door,
    Maryland!
    Avenge the patriotic gore
    That flecked the streets of Baltimore,
    And be the battle queen of yore,
    Maryland! My Maryland! 

    IX
    I hear the distant thunder-hum,
    Maryland!
    The Old Line's bugle, fife, and drum,
    Maryland!
    She is not dead, nor deaf, nor dumb-
    Huzza! she spurns the Northern scum!
    She breathes! she burns! she'll come! she'll come!
    Maryland! My Maryland!

Here's the link:

http://www.msa.md.gov/msa/mdmanual/01glance/html/symbols/lyricsco.html

[Ella Gibbons]

HELLO EVERYBODY

I have had company from California for two days and am all tuckered out.  Will be back later.  Love reading your posts about these chapers. 

You can understand how so many books have been written about Lincoln; one controversial situation after another; one decision after another. 

Here is the short version of the "habeas corpus" question and how it was restored after the War.  I agree that Bush/Cheney did the same and history will write about it also.  Obama says he is attempting to right the wrongs, only time will tell.

http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/did_lincoln.htm

[Ella Gibbons]

"There seem to be behaviors that are just apart of the human condition and they keep appearing over and over as we look at history.

"Lincoln was not the first, or last, President to be accused of acting deceitfully and provocatively in order to advance broader military or political objectives"

Thanks for your posts!  History, always fascinating, and yet ever new!

8. At the start of the war, Lincoln was plagued with a series of ineffective generals.  Was this inevitable?

Hasn't it always been?  I am not a student of the military, past or present, but it seems that those in power, be it presidents or Joint Chiefs of Staff, do need time to evaluate a military leaders effectiveness on the battlefield.  Education, personal confidence, and social connections (McClellan) is not enough to make a good leader.  Perhaps we can read a biography in the future of a good general in the Civil War. Grant?  Sherman? 

Grant is further explored in our next chapters.  Wasn't that awful for McClellan to snub President Lincoln when he came to visit him? (pg. 379)  That could never, never happen today.  And even after the president came to McClellan's own headquarters in a luxurious home!

10. So far, Lincoln is still insisting that the war is about preserving the Union, and not about slavery.  What do you think?
I have always felt, and still do, that Lincoln's main objective in the Civil War, no matter who was at fault, how it started, the terrible casualties, was his determination to save the Union.  He had the vision of what we were to become and what we are.  Regardles of whether we want the position or not, we are today the world's leader.  Heaven help us!

[Ella Gibbons]

Goodwin's book loses its focus, somehow, in attempting to discuss Lincoln's rivals, Bates, Chase and Seward.

LINCOLN DOMINATES!

Do you agree?  Was this her attempt to write something "new" about the period?  Is it successful?

[mabel1015j]

Pat - that's amazing that Maryland made O Maryland their state song in 1939 w/ those lyrics a part of it. I guess they were still angry at the yankees! It's amazing to me how much animus still exists against the north by some southerners.

I'm so disappointed in the Dems for not challenging the Bush/Cheney admin on a number of issues, but after seeing the Taney decision about only Congress being able to suspend the writ of habeas corpus, i'm even more perturbed w/ them.

It's a good thing that Stephen Douglas was not elected president. I didn't kn ow about him being sick and dying in what would have been early in his term as president. How much chaos could have ensued from that?

These are all little-bitty comments, not related to the big issues, but they struck me as i read: what the heck is a Picayune and why is the New Orleans paper titled such? ........Is the Willie Taft who played w/ the Lincoln boys the eventual Pres Taft? .....................jean

[Ella Gibbons]

Hello JEAN!

My itty-bitty comments:  Perhaps Obama's statement that he did not want to pursue anything in the past but only to look forward is responsible for the lack of challenges to anything the former president did or did not do.   This suspension of the writ of habeas corpus is a thorny issue, what do you think is the right thing to do in time of war?

I don't know if the Taft playmate in the book is part of the Taft dynasty or not, I tried to go to Google and my computer got stuck at some site and I had to turn it off; don't care to try again.  I do know that the Taft family is a dynamic one in Ohio.  The Taft Broadcasting Company of Cincinnati, Ohio was a powerhouse in radio for years and the family produced a governor and a president that I know of.

We haven't said too much about the ladies in the book but Mary Lincoln redecorating the White House in time of war was ridiculous.  She should have had better sense and Lincoln was at fault for not stopping it.  I don't think I would have liked her at all, do you? 

It is difficult today to read about such ignorance - "The White House drew its water supply from the Potomac Rive, along the banks of which tens of thousands of troops without proper latrines were stationed."  The symptoms the boys encountered all bear witness to the bacteria that they ingested.

Grief affects people differently, we all know that.  Poor Lincoln with his conscience already overburdened with the guilt for sending young boys into the hell that was the battlefield, had to carry on.
 

[PatH]

I had the same thought about the Taft boys.  It turns out that President Taft was born Sept 15, 1857, so he was too young, but it could be the same extended family.

Jean, I'm surprised about the MD state song too.  The only explanation I can think of is that most people pay no attention whatever to state songs, so it was easy to get it through.

Pop quiz (joke): what do any of you know about the state song of the state in which you are living?

See what I mean?  I only know Maryland's song because I have a taste for the bizarre, and when my children had to take the supremely boring Maryland State History in fourth grade it caught my attention.

[Jonathan]

'This suspension of the writ of habeas corpus is a thorny issue, what do you think is the right thing to do in time of war?'

I hear what you're saying, Ella. And also have read with interest what Jean and Pat have posted. I'm of the opinion that Lincoln was justified in the action, and had the constitutional authority.

U.S. Consitution: Article I, Section 9. 'The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases  of rebellion of invasion the public safety may require it.'

A pretty good case can be made for suspension, given the circumstances. Washington was undefended, and the enemy seemed everywhere. The continuity of the federal government was threatened. Why shouldn't the president take action as chief executive? Why Congress? Because CJ Taney said so? After his Dred Scott decision who could trust his judgement. With his Southern sympathies. But Taney died not too long after, and Lincoln could get his own people on  the bench. Rival Chase as Chief Justice, who left the suspension in place until after the war, and, this one surprised me, Lincoln appointed his 1860 campaign manager, and circuit judge, David Davis, to the Supreme Court.

All the talk of the throngs of office-seekers taking up so much of the president's time seems curious to me. Do you think he needed these people around him? Drew strength from them?

I'm enjoying Goodwin's narrative style more all the time. Life went on, with Mary decorating the neglected White House, and Ellen McClellan reading the latest letter from her bragging husband. All we know about him is what he himself tells us. What he did in scorning the president, and his gratuitous opinions of that grand old soldier, Winfield Scott, were disgraceful. But then he wanted to replace both of them.A very ambitious man. But so were they all. McClellan chose not to risk everything on the battlefield. Given the nature of warfare, his inaction saved many lives.

[Ella Gibbons]

HAHAAAAA, PAT!  I had to smile at the pop quiz.  I never even knew about state songs, we live in the Ohio State University campus area and everyone, EVERYONE, sings their songs - Snoopy, Snoopy, Hang On -   Fight the Team across the field, show them Ohio's here, etc.

Anyway, JONATHAN, your thought that McClellan's inaction saving many lives gave me pause, as apparently Lincoln didn't think so.  I must go back to the book where it talks about the man and read up on it. There is so much, so many details here, that we could almost discuss the book page-by-page.

Those office seekers around Lincoln!  He should have stopped them in my opinion, perhaps he didn't know how to say No?  Did he have a chief of staff like the presidents today have - I think he keeps all the "unwanteds" away, and I think that Obama brought many of his campaign staffers to the White House.  Here again, I must think  - who was his campaign manager and where is he?  Was it Ram (sp?) Emanuel?  And isn't he his chief-of-staff now?

Do help me out someone!

Back later................ 

[Ella Gibbons]

I hasten to correct myself:

Rahm Emanuel, who served as a policy aide in the Clinton White House before running for Congress, told media outlets Wednesday that he had to take time to weigh family and political considerations before accepting. He will have to relinquish his position in the House Democratic leadership and put aside hopes of becoming House speaker.  He was named Chief of Staff.

The first 100 days has become a test for presidents.  It was not in Lincoln's administration but I have a feeling he would have passed with A+

I think it was very interesting that the "war" was not on people's minds when Obama took office.    Click here for the first 100 days interviews of Obama's presidency:

http://usnews.feedroom.com/?fr_story=992a02fa8da6e49ac8b715e4103e51b75454fb7a

[Jonathan]

'Was this her (Goodwin's) attempt to write something "new" about the period?  Is it successful?'

Yes, very successful, in my opinion. I feel overwhelmed, since taking up her book,  by the complexity of the subject. The great historical event, America's Civil War, and the strange career of the man who managed to get himself center stage. Every book on the subject now catches my eye. Every aspect of the conflict and Lincoln's role in it seems to be written about, and still it seems to remain the happy hunting ground for another book, or a doctoral thesis. I've looked at quite a few, but it's always good to get back to Goodwin. I believe she does hit all the bases, regarding issues and and successfully places Lincoln at the center of events. The rivals play their parts, but there's no question about who is in the starring role.

[mabel1015j]

Big surprise for me last night when i read about James Mason being captured and imprisoned. There is a college in Va w/ his name. I went to look at their website to see if it was really the same guy..........................they don't mention their namesake at ALL! ...........not surprising........ I would call him a traitor to the Union. He wrote the Fugitive Slave Act, not something that would be looked on w/ favor at the present time. He also fled to Canada after the Civil War. I suppose he was in danger of prosecution by the Union, but he returned to Alexandria Va later in the century..............this info is from a bio page on him, not from the college site. The college was founded in 1908, i guess he was still a Confederate hero at that point...................i wander how many Black students they have at the college and if they know about James?.................TIC..........jean

[mabel1015j]

One of our PBS stations broadcast "Looking for Lincoln" last night. It is excellent, if you get a chance to see it, take a look. "Skip" Gates is the narrator, DKG is one of the commentators, Bill Clinton and Geo W. Bush have interesting comments and sev'l historians comment.

One of the writers, i believe it was James Horton, asked a good question: Which one of the possibilities would you have wanted to be the president other than AL? Is there one who would have done a better job? He said it implying that the answer to the last question was "no."

One of the segments was at a "Confederate" convention. In a previous post i commented that some Southerners still had confederate sympathies in 1908, but what a surprise! They still dislike Lincoln in 2009! One man said AL had done nothing  positive and that he was a traitor! I think he forgot that the Union was the  country and the South was the part that seceeded. ...................... I am constantly amazed at how two individuals can see an event in completely different perspectives. ............ jean

[PatH]

I am constantly amazed at how two individuals can see an event in completely different perspectives. ............ jean

I agree, though I'm sure that the people attending a "Confederate" convention would be at the extreme end of the range.

Jean, where in Virginia is James Mason college?  I can't seem to locate it.  It's hard even to find the historical man James Mason without getting swamped by the actor.

[PatH]

Lincoln offered the command of the Union forces to Robert E. Lee.  Lee refused, and resigned his commission because he felt too much loyalty to his native Virginia to fight against it.  Presumably this decision was disastrous for the South, since his good generalship enabled them to hold out much longer, with many more casualties and much more destruction, though it still wasn't likely that the South could win--they were too outnumbered.

Southern friends tell me that Lee foresaw the consequence of his choice from the start--that the requirements of his personal honor would destroy his beloved homeland--but still felt it was the only thing he could do.  I tried to find some evidence for this and couldn't.  My ability for historical research isn't that good though.  Does anyone else know anything about it?

I did find this lengthy but interesting article about his decision process

http://www.americanheritage.com/articles/magazine/ah/2008/3/2008_3_18.shtml

which shows how complex and painful it was for him.  And of course by the end of the war he knew perfectly well what his decision had meant.

[ANNIE]

PatH,
Did you get my email about Ella??? Her hard drive has a problem and she has taken her computer to Best Buy for repair.  She is hoping to be back soon with lots of questions but hopes you will be here with more of your own until she returns.

[PatH]

Good thing you said that, Annie, I hadn't checked my mail in the last half hour.

[JoanK]

I heard a wrinkle on Lincoln's suspension of Habius corpus, don't remember the source so don't know if it's accurate.

According to this, the impetus for the suspension was the issue of whether Maryland wouls secede or join the Union. This was critical, since Washington lies between Maryland and Virginia. If Maryland had seceded, at worst the government, including Lincoln, would have been captured. At best, some would have escaped and had to scramble together another government in Philly or NY, w/o facilities, files, equipment, etc.

Maryland was due to vote on the issue, and Lincoln knew that the secessionists had the majority. So (I think it said the night before), he suspende habeas corpus and arrested all the South-leaning congressmen. After the vote to remain in the union, he released them.

If this is true, was he justified?

[JoanK]

ELLA: on state songs: I don't know the state song of Ohio, but it stuck in my memory that my daughter had a school assignment to study Ohio, and she told me that the Ohio wtate drink is tomato juice. I can just imagine circumstances where that might be proposed and passed!

[Ella Gibbons]

I'm back.  Rather expensive when your hard drive dies, isn't it?  And when you are addicted to the Internet and email as I am.  But it's all great fun.  I'll be reading the posts I missed and catching up tonight and tomorrow!

[Ella Gibbons]

WE HAVE A NEW WEEK, NEW CHAPTERS TO BE DISCUSSED AND NEW QUESTIONS IN THE HEADING TO HELP US IN OUR DISCUSSION

Are there any interested parties out there waiting for the discussion this week?  Please post! 

We need your input!

[Ella Gibbons]

Poor President Lincoln.  As I read these chapters I feel very sorry for the man who did not know that he would be the leader of a country that was splitting in two, almost as easily as those rails he used to split.

Nor could he have known that he would lose a beloved son while President.  Life is difficult sometimes for all of us to endure, but some get a bigger dose.

He is faced with the problems of not only getting his cabinet together, his administration officials appointed, but now he must handle generals and a gathering storm! 
 
And "the bottom is out of the tub!"

Lincoln had no military training and McClellan assured him that this should give no problems.  That he, McClellan,  would take care of it all.  Should he have immediately sensed trouble?