Life of Frances Perkins,The ~ Kirstin Downey - August Book Club Online

[bellamarie]

The Woman Behind the New Deal:      The Life of Frances Perkins,           FDR'S Secretary of Labor and His Moral Conscience                by Kirstin  Downey Links: Frances Perkins Center Frances Perkins, Dept. of Labor Jane Addams [Frances Perkins Speech

Discussion August   l -  8     August  9 - 15   August 16 - 22     August 23 - 31

Schedule Chapters 1-9 Chapters 10-18 Chapters 19-27 Chapters 28-38

FOR CONSIDERATION

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“CIVILIZING CAPITALISM” - what did you understand this to mean?  

What was the purpose of the NRA and was it successful?  

Were you surprised when you read that “two groups of Washington insiders were developing “competing proposals …..that reflected growing worldwide experiments in fascism, a political ideology that specifically tied together government and business interests.” (pg.172)

What is fascism?  How was it perceived in America?

Should FDR have known about the situation in Germany in 1933 when he gave instructions to the American Ambassador to Germany?

What are the reason why the USA did not do more to help the Jewish situation in Germany?

Was FP effective with labor leaders?  How was she perceived by business interests?

Was the fact that unions did not admit women a factor in FP’s administration?

Roosevelt attempted to remain aloof during labor strikes and let FP handle disturbances.   Did it make FP’s more difficult or easier?

Discussion Leaders:   Ella and Harold

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Jonathon,

Of two books on the same subject and other things being equal, I would choose the one with 38 chapters, over the one with only nine. It was that way when I was young and hoping for a fresh adventure with every chapter, and now, much older, I am convinced the author with many chapters has a better grasp of her subject and a surer system of dealing with mountains of research matter, especially in the case of a complex character, such as Frances Perkins, playing her part on an immense, historical stage. Acts and scenes galore. Many exits and entrances. Every chapter a theme or an episode.

While I tend to agree with you that a longer book would include more, I am simply amazed at how my book has the exact quotes, and characteristics I am reading in these posts.  I am getting the same impressions and ideas of Frances Perkins the woman, politician, Christian, advocate for social justice, and her personal relationship with FDR.  So far I haven't heard anything much different between the two books.  Like I said, if I hadn't noticed the assigned chapters, I would not have realized we had different books.  It is very possible both authors drew from the same research archives.  I have read many books on different famous people such as Princess Di and JFK, etc., and all the authors seem to have alot of the same factual material, one may just have used a different source such as a personal friend or coworker who may have been able to share something another person would not have known.  I intend no disrespect to Kirsten Downey, I am certain her style of writing is much different.  I only meant to point out I am able to follow along and share the same ideas and impressions about FP as the rest of the group.  I'm just excited I am able to continue with the discussion.

[bellamarie]

I hear Americans go to Canada for prescription drugs because they cost less, yet I hear Canadians go to the U.S. for medical procedures because they are not available to them in Canada.

I think it is each person's individual choice as far as health care, and I certainly don't want our government running one more thing in my life, especially when it would mean my tax dollars would support programs I strongly disagree with.  But then we may be getting off the topic here and be wandering into personal politics which could take us in areas of discourse.  lololol

Getting back to FP, I had to crack up when I read she saw roaches as big as mice.  lolol  Imagine cockroaches and crooks.  What a combination to deal with in a new position.  If anyone was up to the challenge it was FP.

[Ella Gibbons]

I AM INTRIGUED!

Obviously, the decade of the 30's had a more religious flavor than the present one.  Here is HAROLD stating that:

"Our gasoline gage was on low when we began to see people walking along the road many carrying bibles as if on their way to church.  My father stopped the car to ask two young men how to get out of the park.  They were CCC boys working on a park project.  They said they didn’t have anything to do so they were going to the evening service at a country church."

Young men carrying bibles and going to church! They weren't sitting around playing poker or drinking beer (or was beer allowed on Sundays, then?)

And then JONATHAN says this:

"She (FP) sensed that Roosevelt must have had a religious revelation, that he was exerting a spiritual leadership that seemed divinely inspired."

Presidents that I have read about were not so inspired.  Not in Meacham's book anyway and he does talk of presidents and their religious ideas.

Thanks, s for that report on Canada's health care program.  Now how to get that word out to our countrymen, so they will stop this nonsense of yelling at town meetings!

I must quote this; Obama was faced with the same dilemma, if not the same projects, as FDR:

"Nobody knew, least of all the President-elect, whether the most important thing was to balance the budget, to conserve the trees out in the wilderness, or to feed the unemployed in the Bowery mission.  That's literally true.  There was no conviction about which things came first and which things second." pg.119

Who would the job and why?

[Ella Gibbons]

You may want to put this on your calendar:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/schedule.html

A PBS program exploring the culture of the 1930's in America.

[Ella Gibbons]

A few facts about the depression era:


"By the 1930s money was scarce because of the depression, so people did what they could to make their lives happy.  Movies were hot, parlor games and board games were popular.  People gathered around radios to listen to the Yankees.  Young people danced to the big bands.  Franklin Roosevelt influenced Americans with his Fireside Chats.  The golden age of the mystery novel continued as people escaped into books, reading writers like Agatha Christie, Dashielle Hammett, and Raymond Chandler"

FACTS about this decade.

Population: 123,188,000 in 48 states
Life Expectancy: Male, 58.1; Female, 61.6
Average salary: $1,368
Unemployment rises to 25%
Huey Long propses a guaranteed annual income of $2,500
Car Sales: 2,787,400
Food Prices: Milk, 14 cents a qt.; Bread, 9 cents a loaf; Round Steak, 42 cents a pound
Lynchings: 21

http://kclibrary.lonestar.edu/decade30.html



 

[Ella Gibbons]

BELLEMARIE, I did want to say that we are happy your book parallels this discussion and you are probably right that authors use the same resources in writing nonfiction; there is just so much out there.

What do you think about those prices for food?

[PatH]

Well, if I only made $1,368 a year, I would hope that milk would be 14 cents a quart.

[Ella Gibbons]

Indeed, yes, Pat.  What did you think of HUEY LONG (my, my,) attempting to guarantee every man an income?

Listen to the vibrant voice of FDR in 1933 take the oath of office of the President of the United States:

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=franklin+delano+roosevelt&docid=1068754600072&mid=3A098F4BD3C2BEF8FC4A3A098F4BD3C2BEF8FC4A&FORM=VIVR22#

[HaroldArnold]

Jonathan, thank you for your comment on the Canadian single payer health care System.  But how is it for Seniors in their 80's whose survival depends on expensive state of the art medical procedures and exotic drugs to sustain life.  The word down here that while these are available to younger people in their turn, they are denied people in their 80's.  This is a major issue with U.S. seniors.  They like their current Medicare system, and the present Congress seems inclined to dilute the benefits allowed under the present system.

Also through the year and particularly during the winter months I still meet quite a few Canadians at my volunteer work at the National Historical Park and the Institute of Texan Cultures who are in San Antonio for medical reasons  

[bellamarie]

Ella

Thanks, s for that report on Canada's health care program.  Now how to get that word out to our countrymen, so they will stop this nonsense of yelling at town meetings!

I think that "yelling" is called The First Amendment, something FP and FDR would have supported, shouts and all.  Americans are frustrated today just as much as they were back in FDR's times.  I have a feeling if there was mass media coverage back then, you would have seen even more uprising.  Francis incurs a bit of shouting later when impeachment is an issue for her.  Fear for FP's life at town meetings is far more to deal with, than seniors yellling at their senators that they are elected to work for them, NOT for their own self interests.

Times have really not changed when it comes to politics.  It would be difficult to find a person like Francis Perkins today, who's heart was truly for the average person.  Even when she had a pretty good life herself, to carry quarters with her on her way to work and pass them out to the poor people at the red lights and stop signs is something you wouldn't find today.  Imagine the compassion she had and the passion that drove her to help all Americans not just the wealthy such as herself.

[maryboree]

Hello everyb-o-d-y...  I've been lurking in this wonerful discussion for almost a week now (Ella's been urging me to join the discussion but I don't feel the need.) All of you are teaching me a part of history I did not know.  Frances Perkins was not a person I had heard of - which tells you how much of a history scholar I am. I think I've learned more from Harold, Jonathan and the rest of you since I first got involved here than I did throughout all my years in school. I really did not like history - boring, I thought!!! Not any more.

Someone asked how President Roosevelt pronounced his own name.  The answer is clearly revealed in the link that Ella gave us in his Oath of Office: "I, Franklin Delano Roosevelt ........" (as in Rose).  I had read that that was the correct pronunciation. but as either Jonathan or Harold mentioned, it's a bit like the potato/tomato preference.

This discussion has inspired me to dig out my 3 or 4 books that I have about FDR and which I some day plan to read.  I came across one that belonged to my parents, given to them by Olin Dows who was a neighbor and I think "related" in some fashion through the centuries to FDR.  He was a painter as he called himself.  He authored and illustrated a book in 1949 entitled "Franklin Roosevelt at Hyde Park."  At the time. my parents worked for his mother and him at Hyde Park and the copy he gave them he inscribed "To Maurice and Juliette Guadagnini with best wishes....from Olin Dows." They also met Eleanor Roosevelt once when she visited Mrs. Dows. That was a very special day for them.

It's a fascinating book and I'm wondering if any of you have read the book? In it there are quotes from various members of his family and also one that he includes of Frances Perkins, which was the real reason I wanted to go through his books. I've only read 58 pages so do not know what lies ahead.  

[JoanK]

WELCOME, WELCOME. MARY. I don't know that book: it sounds very interesting.

[Ella Gibbons]

MARY, I AM DELIGHTED YOU JOINED US!  Read more of the book and tell us what the author says about Frances Perkins, this remarkable woman.

AND WE CAN HAVE A MINI TOWN HALL MEETING RIGHT HERE!  WONDERFUL!!

After all, this is the very meat of the book, of Frances Perkins' programs - what should government do for its citizens?  Many of the goverment programs we have today started with this Secretary of Labor.

Government interference in health care?

Hasn't goverment been interfering for years in various ways.  Child labor laws - should John Mitchel hve been allowed to go to work at the age of 13 in the coal mines?  Unemployment compensation - John Doe got laid off at work because his employer was losing money and needed to downsize.  He got paid for being out of work.  

It goes on and on.  Minimum wages; of course, there are good reasons.  Social Security, very good reasons.  Medicare, Medicaid, very good reason.

WHERE DOES THE GOVERNMENT STOP?  

[mabel1015j]

When I heard the FDR oath i also heard him say Rose - velt, so i went back to the videos that i have used in my classes. One of them was of Eleanor telling a joke to soldiers in Australia during WWII and the punch line had "President Roosevelt" in it. She also said Rose-velt. That was the pronouciation that i had grown up hearing.

I don't know if you have this story in Kristen Downey's book, but i tho't this sounded like "de je vue, all over again" ala Yogie Berra - when talking about FP's first news conference, quote: "...she shrank from questions touching upon her personal life.......When one reporter persisted in asking questions about her husband, 'she did not conceal her displeasure.'" ........ are we talking about FP or Hillary Clinton? History keeps giving us these opportunities to compare and contrast..............

Ella - interference, or support? isn't that the question, which perspective does each individual have?............Rachal Maddow had a good illustration of that last night on her show, showing, first, conservative senators stating that the gov't HAD to become involved in the Terry Shiavo case to stop her family from carrying out their decision to remove her from life support systems. Then she showed the same senators today talking about NOT having gov't invovled in those decisions.......................In a democracy there is a constant conversation about individual rights and how far those rights can go and how much the gov't has to balance individual rts vs security of the society...................................so was FP protecting workers rights or interfering in employers rights to do what they want w/ "their property"? Your answer depends on your perspective, probably related to whatever side your parents were on.....................jean

[HaroldArnold]

Ella from message #202 Notes the following:

Obviously, the decade of the 30's had a more religious flavor than the present one.  Here is HAROLD stating that:

"Our gasoline gage was on low when we began to see people walking along the road many carrying bibles as if on their way to church.  My father stopped the car to ask two young men how to get out of the park.  They were CCC boys working on a park project.  They said they didn’t have anything to do so they were going to the evening service at a country church."

The general statement that there might have been more religious enthusiasm in the 1930’s may be true, but I would not think the specific example of Ozark mountain people on their way to church on that  1939 Sunday evening applicable to the country as a whole.    We had passed 3 or 4 small groups of mountain people (certainly not a typical cross-section of U.S. Population) some with Bibles  going the same direction as we were in the auto.. They were in family groups, men, women & children.  When we came to the two CC Boys I don’t remember them carrying Bibles.  They were in kaki uniforms.  When we stopped they said they were going to church to avoid the boredom of an evening in the barracks with nothing to do.   They crowded into our car with us for the last half mile to the church.  I now wonder how they made out thorough the coming years of WW II

[HaroldArnold]

Regarding the current Health Care discussion Thread; We have invited our congressman Charley Gonzalez to hold a town meeting  on the Health Care issue here at out Chandler Senior Independent Living Apartment.  We have no word on his acceptance of this invitation and I doubt that it will materialize, but if it does there will be no shouting, only questions on Health Care and perhaps other questions relative to each individual congressman's propensity to pad the budget with all kinds or irrational spending projects.   Again I doubt this Town Meeting willl occur. 

[maryboree]

Hello Mabel!   your response to government interference verses individual rights is, in my opinion, correct.  No matter what, someone is going to be offended by things that are done or not done by our government. It is my belief that the government should help those who need assistance, whether in a financial crisis, illness or a loss of jobs, or unexpected emergency for various reasons.  But when it comes to building billion dollar bridges to nowhere as we sometimes hear, it really gets my blood boiling as it does with most people.

So in reading everyone's posts here, I believe FP was acting in the interest of the people.  As I understand it, she really was a perople's person.

And hello Bellamarie,  your mention of FP's carrying quarters to work and passing them out to poor peoplle at the red light took me back to age 5.  In 1931 my brother and I lived with a poor Italian family for 2 years who had 6 children of their own (my French parents were employed nearby as domestic servents) and during the summer months, we children were up early and outside doing ... whatever.  And one summer morning, at the crack of dawn, a lady driving a tiny dark blue Austin, drove by and threw lollipops in handfuls to us as she drove by. We must have looked like rag-a-muffins, I'm sure, but we scrambled to pick them all up and looked forward to tomorrow. This continued throughout the summer, and to this day I think of that lovely lady and wonder who she was, and to thank her for being so kind.  Those years were tough years for lots of needy people and FDR and FP was their lifesaver.

Ella, from what I'm reading in Franklin at Hyde Park, it doesn't appear that he actually brings people in government into this family story, but he does quote family and close friends on occasion.  I'll see as I read on and will let you know if there is any FP input.

[straudetwo]

The rights of employers of what/whom they "own" ? Own?

But must rights - everybody's rights -  not also be balanced with responsibility?

When the federal government took steps to stop the abuse of children  and abominable conditions for adults in sweatshops, can that  really be called  interference?

Why this allergic reaction to the word "social" ?  
We accept the term readily enough in SOCIAL Security.  Social Security is,  in fact,  the mainstay, the livelihood for millions of Americans who were not to the manor born and never had a government job or one that entitled them to a pension, e.g.  the railroad ,  or the telephone or the electric company workers.
Therefore I submit to you that the word "social"  does not have political connotations ONLY.

SociaLISM, on the other hand,  became a political movement.  Marx and Engels (Das Kapital used it interchangeably with Communism.

Bellamarie
The right to free speech is to be  cherished and  treasured.
But shouting and talking OVER the utterances of  others serve no reasonable purpose IMHO.  They are dreadfully irritating to viewers and/or listeners and obscure what ANYBODY'S viewpoint is.

There are better ways of communication,   and I've used them in my position as an interpreter with international groups composed of people who not only had different OPINIONS but spoke different languages.

Ella,  there are countless examples in history, antedating the classical age, that give us a full hindsight perspective of successes and failures, of good times and bad, of heroes and villains,  in endless cyclic repetition, with wars an ineradicable constant.  What does that tell us about human nature?
We have not learned from even the most demonstrable, catastrophic mistakes, and we'll most likely repeat them ad infinitum.

[Ella Gibbons]

THIS JUST IN!

Social security, unemployment insurance, fair labor standards, child labor laws, workplace safety standards, overtime pay, minimum wage -- you can thank Frances Perkins for much of what we regard as essential rights belonging to American workers.

At the Frances Perkins Center, located at the Perkins family homestead in Newcastle, Maine, we honor her commitment to social justice, and continue her work to build a better life for all Americans.  - from the Frances Perkins Center (see heading)

individual rts vs security of the society
interests of the people.
responsibility?
social justice
essential rights

It's our government, we pay for it, we decide by representation what it does.

LET'S TALK ABOUT IT!


 

[HaroldArnold]

Here are a few comments on my remembrances of my life during the Depression.  In the Summer of 1932 My father an office employee of the S.P. RR was transferred from San Antonio to Houston.  I was 5 years old going on six.  I think my Fathers salary was about 180/ a month, a livable wage at that time.  We lived first in a small brick house on west Clay  where I started to school.  We soon moved to another brick house on Damon Court,  but by 1934 we were in a 2 bedroom brick bungalow in the Heights at 733 E.16th street.  I went to the Eugene Field Elementary School.  At the time all of these houses were rental in the hands of a Bond and Mortgage Company who had foreclosed on a former purchaser after the depression began in 1929. The rent was quite likely in the 25 to 35 dollar per month range.  We moved back to San Antonio in the summer of 1936 when I was 9 years old.  My father disliked living in Houston and choose to resign from the Houston Job for a lesser paying employment in San Antonio where we lived in a larger frame home that they owned mortgage free that my parents had built in 1926.  

The E. 16 street address was really a fine little 2 bed room, single bath , with  living room dining room kitchen plus a small roofed-enclosed back porch.  In the 1960’s when my work often took me to Houston, I drove by the E. 16th Street house.  The drainage ditches along both sides of the street where I had fished for craw fish had been replaced with an underground storm sewer drainage system but the House looked in good shape just as I remembered it.  As a matter of fact in the late years of the 20th century that Heights sub-division on the near north side of downtown  Houston became popular with the value of those little brick houses spiraling up the multi hundred  thousand dollar range.  

[bellamarie]

straudetwo,

Bellamarie
The right to free speech is to be  cherished and  treasured.
But shouting and talking OVER the utterances of  others serve no reasonable purpose IMHO.  They are dreadfully irritating to viewers and/or listeners and obscure what ANYBODY'S viewpoint is.

There are better ways of communication,   and I've used them in my position as an interpreter with international groups composed of people who not only had different OPINIONS but spoke different languages.

I totally agree with you...... my point was that it is "The First Amendment." These people are frustrated because they are concerned that NO one is listening to them.  Sometimes you have to shout to get someone's attention.  There is NO danger of less cherished or treasured right to free speech, because a person expresses it loudly.  I think respect has to come from both the townshall people and the elected official.  When these seniors are being labled racists, mobs, Nazis, wackos, etc., that does not show the elected official is even willing to hear what they are saying.   They are making their point that these elected officials are suppose to be looking out for the voters best interest, NOT their own special interest groups.  

We can all see government involvement as interference depending on how you personally feel it will effect you directly.  

Mabel,

I don't know if you have this story in Kristen Downey's book, but i tho't this sounded like "de je vue, all over again" ala Yogie Berra - when talking about FP's first news conference, quote: "...she shrank from questions touching upon her personal life.......When one reporter persisted in asking questions about her husband, 'she did not conceal her displeasure.'" ........ are we talking about FP or Hillary Clinton? History keeps giving us these opportunities to compare and contrast..............

You make a very good point.  I have seen so many comparisons in this book to today's political scene that it is amazing.  I guess its true....History repeats itself.  Life is circular, we go around and around and here we are discussing and dealing with the exact same social justices/injustice  issues as in the 30's.  So....like I asked earlier, does anyone see a politician today that is "for the people" the way FP seemed to be back then?  I certainly can't think of one and that is not cynicism.

I'm still trying to understand why France Perkins got married with no friends or family attending her wedding. When I read that it puzzled me.

[bellamarie]

maryboree,  Hello!  I loved your story about the lollipop lady.  I wonder who she was?  Thank you for sharing that with us.

[Ella Gibbons]

I think we all have profited from the experience of airing our attitudes towards health care reform in America; I do appreciate your frankness, but....

Golly Moses!  I just noticed the date and we have only today and tomorrow to finish up our discussion of the second week chapters in our Frances Perkins book.

FP's relations with the press, indeed, her entire attitude toward the press was unfriendly, almost hostile; whereas Eleanor Roosevelt, much in the news at the time, had very good press.

What was the difference between the two women?

Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pelosi are two examples of women in the news today.  Both seem to be able to handle the press, don't you think?  What does it take to get good press. 

Is it more difficult for women than men? 

How would they be addressed if you were being introduced to them for the first time? 

[bellamarie]

Ella, 

Hillary Clinton and Nancy Pols are two examples of women in the news today.  Both seem to be able to handle the press, don't you think?  What does it take to get good press.

I'm not so sure I agree with you on these two women being able to handle the press.  The press helped to ridicule Hillary throughout her campaign, showing her tears, reporting her cleavage shown and the most recent coverage of her trip to Africa on a mission of women's rights. The press found it more newsworthy to show how she responded to a question of "What does Mr. Clinton think."  The press has shown her response so many times over, referring to her as having a bad hair day, feeling fat, overtired etc.  NO mention of the women's rights and the good she did while there.  They used this opportunity to embrass her.  Not that her response was a shining moment for her, but the press did not have to adlib, and joke when showing it.

Nancy Pelosi is doing a fine job going in front of the press and  humiliating herself, but the press is happy to oblige her and repeat it over and over again. I rarely hear any positive coverage on her.

What does it take to get good press? 

In today's media in politics, if you are friends and colleagues of the special interest groups, and owners of the media stations, magazines, newspapers etc., you get positive coverage. 

Is it more difficult for women than men?

It is absolutely more difficult for women than men.  Look at how Frances Perkins decided to dress in a more subdued, matron fashion so as not to draw attention to her feminism.  She tried to down play her sex so the press would take her seriously.  The press covers women's appearances, fashion and personalities verses they cover men's accomplishments.  Hillary was jabbed at for wearing pant suits, yet when she did wear a blouse they mentioned too much cleavage.  Michelle Obama has had her tennis shoes, handbags, hair and fashion commented on, rather than her causes she cares about. I don't think I recall the press mentioning men's attire, brand of wallets or watches they have etc.

Women have come a long way in this country, but when it comes to the press, women are always going to be treated less important.

When the sports reporter Erin Andrews was photographed by someone while in her hotel room, media coverage mentioned she was part to blame for being so attractive.  Others said she asked for it because of the clothes she wore. Media today rips women apart no matter how successful they are in what ever career they are in. 

Frances Perkins knew she would have to conform to the press in some way in order to be taken seriously.  I can not blame her hostility towards their invasive questions.  If FDR had not taken a liking to Perkins....she would never have accomplished her mission, because as the book states, the men she met treated her coldly and snubbed her.

[ANNIE]

Ella,
IMHO, the citizens who voted in the men and women who serve in Congress and in the Presidency,  need to read this  health bill, HR3200??? Is that it?  Yes, here 'tis:  

http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c111:H.R.3200:

There is more disruption of our lives than just the "death panels" which have been taken off the table as of yesterday.  Here's is one point from that bill.

If you work for a business which provides medical benefits but you choose not to participate in their plan because your spouse or parent has you covered in their plan with another company, your company has to pay a FINE which is a percentage of the business's payroll because he/she is not providing medical benefits for ALL all of the employees, due to the fact that you have chosen to be covered by your spouse's company.  This is so twisted that not even I understand it. But, its in HR3200.

While we are upset with the HR 3200, another czar has been appointed for the FCC and his plan is even more odious than the health bill.  Fines will be levied on broadcasting companies who don't give equal time to liberal , Christian, and conservative radio personalities. Are we back in the 30's when Hitler took over Germany?

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/52435

[mabel1015j]

AMEN! to everything Bellemarie said about women and the press! FP was a real pioneer it that arena as well as in bringing forth new political/social issues.

Annie - the problem w/ the discussion of health care at the moment is that we don't have a REAL bill to discuss yet. There are 3 or 4 in varioius committees. I'm pretty sure that if an employee has opted out of the health ins program of their employer that, in the end, the employer will not be penalized - however, i can foresee a circumstance where employees may be coerced into signing something that says they opt out, when they really didn't want to, if it got their employer of the hook. As for equal time on broadcast stations, we had equal time, politically, for many years. That was rescinded and i'm not sure that was a good thing. It's why we now have MSNBC and FOX being so vitriolic on their side of issues.

Going to church for entertainment? I can remember that. In the days beforetv, or before there were so many music venues in almost every town and a multiplex movie theater every mile or so, going to church/tent mtgs/ Elmer Gantry-type evangelical mtgs was great free entertainment for many folks. Even tho i was never particularly interested in religion, as a teen-ager i attended many "tent" mtgs because there were other teen-agers there, particularly boys, and i loved the music. That has been true thruout history and was one of the reasons people in the 1700's and the 1830's went to hear Methodist/Baptist/ etc. ministers during what was called "The Great AWakenings" - it was drama! It was fun! It was a way of mtg other people, especially for farmers who were isolated all day. Many people still go to church to be a part of a community or to have a social life, as well as for the spirituality of the event. ............jean

[mabel1015j]

re: women and the press - did you see the woman being dragged out of Sen McCaskill's town hall mtg? Apparently she was provoked by a man who tore up her poster of Rosa Parks! Yes! Rosa Parks!............even tho the man who tore up her poster was also escorted out, that was not shown by the press.

From Huffington Post: "Among the many eyebrow-raising clips aired on major news networks yesterday from Senator Claire McCaskill's health care town hall was one of a woman being half-escorted, half-dragged from the building.

What the clip failed to catch was that the woman was provoked. She and a few other women had brought posters to the town hall, but they rolled them up after being booed and berated by the crowd. When the woman unrolled one to show to a journalist, an angry man in the crowd rushed over and tore it up. A poster of what, you ask? Rosa Parks. When the woman moved to take her poster back, the police stepped in and escorted both parties from the building. But only the woman made national news."....................jean

[Jonathan]

Why has Frances Perkins been forgotten?

Page 159. 'Frances's accomplishments somehow began to get lost amid the swirl of publicity about FDR's initiatives.'

Page 161. 'Her secretive nature, however, assured that little was known of Frances's life at work and at home.'

Much of her life remained hidden behind a veil, we were told earlier. Yet she made such a huge contribution in her instigating and implementing so many New Deal policies. So it's interesting to learn of FP's feelings about the Roosevelt 'brain trust', that group who got, and even yet somehow in the public's vague memory, get credit for the initiatives.

Not so, says FP. They were just the speechwriters, hired just to dress up the ideas of the president, many of which were, in fact, her ideas. She always had a long 'to do' list.

We've only heard the half of it after eighteen chapters, of this remarkable Frances Perkins, who courted the wealthy and waged a war on poverty with her pocketful of quarters and all she could get out of the U.S. treasury for legally constituted relief works and financial safety nets.

Why did Frances and Paul get married so suddenly and so quietly? Panic, I suppose.

[ANNIE]

Jean,
Although the bill isn't completely done, just reading about those articles and pages and government control is certainly chilling to me.

As to the FCC diversity Czar and his plans for the public and private broadcasters, I find it even more chilling than the HC bill.  The man wrote a book on the topic earlier in the 2005,??, maybe.  We do not need the government telling us what we will listen to on the radio or what we are watching on TV nor do we need the private broadcasters supporting public broadcasters through a tax placed on the earnings of the private sector.  There are rules already in place for FCC to follow.  Enough government control, already!

[EvelynMC]

Ella,
You asked where some of us are. I am reading along with you folks and am almost finished with this week's assigned reading and now have to hurry to finish so I can start on next week's chapters.

Frances Perkins was remarkable and I am so glad so many of her ideas were made into law.

About Harold's story regarding the two CCC boys on their way to church on Sunday evening.  Someone posted wondering why they weren't in the barracks drinking beer and playing cards.  Well, in Arkansas there wouldn't have been any beer available.  Arkansas was "dry" then and still is in most counties of the state.  And back then nothing else would have been open on a Sunday except church.

Evelyn 

[Ella Gibbons]

Wonderful discussion, isn't it, with a wide range of opinions!  We are so fortunate in our "doddering" (well, me, that is!) age to have remarks to consider from others all across the USA without traveling a long distance!

It's remarkable!  I want to thank you all for your comments!

BELLEMARIE, I agree with you almost 100%.  What should women do who want to be taken seriously by the press and the public?  Dress matronly?  Oh, come, on, it would be laughable.  Perhaps, they just have to be very knowledgeable, even more so, than men and work harder at their jobs to be taken seriously?

I don't know.  Men have their problems, also, particularly with "affairs" outside of marriage.  Happens more to men, haven't you noticed?  Particularly lately?  FDR had his problems; it has been speculated that the only president since then that was truly faithful was Harry Truman, who loved his Bess.

Your statement - "If FDR had not taken a liking to Perkins....she would never have accomplished her mission" - needs an addition or correction, I feel.  Perkins had experience in labor movements, commissions, organizations.  That's what got her the job!

ANN, thank you for posting those clickables.  It would take study, wouldn't it?  I read a few paragraphs and I see where advisory committees would be set up to study the initiatives being taken, particularly that "self-insure" initiative.  

As JEAN said, the bill has not come out of the House yet and what there is of it needs to be clarified to the public.  Why doesn't someone use a graph on posters to show us exactly what the bill proposes?  

As mentioned in a few posts, the harsh and strident voices of people present at these town meetings are not going to impress most of us; not me anyway.  I want clarity, civility.

I've always felt what has driven radio and TV is business, not the government, and I can't believe that would change.  Business pays for it; all those awful commercials, those necessary commercials!

But free speech, free press, our bill of rights!  Probably each of us see our representatives, our  government, differently.  It's as it should be, diversity in all things.

HELLO, JONATHAN.  I wanted to thank you for your remarks about the Canadian health system.  We here in the states must do something about our spiraling costs, our federal debt.  What that will be, and when, whether in this administration or next, remains the unanswered question.

But back to the book.  We have not arrived in our discussion at the White House yet have we?  And FDR?  That will change soon.

Thanks EVELYN, for your comments!  Arkansas is still dry?  I had no idea!  The home of Bill Clinton, but then Bill found other pleasures didn't he?

TRAUDE, I agree socialism is a pollitical movement, up there with communism, fascism, capitalism, etc.  But interference by the government is not all bad, actually we think alike.  We needed labor laws, and Perkins was our man (as someone once called her; a comment that amused FDR)

HAROLD, I loved your remembrances of the Depression years but I think your family came through those years intact and with not a lot of suffering.  We should state some of the circumstances that many families endured during that decade.

[Ella Gibbons]

THE DEPRESSION YEARS:

A third of the working population had no jobs.
One in six homes was lost to foreclosure.
Charitable organizations ran out of resources and closed their doors.
The sick stopped going to doctors because they couldn't pay.
Doctors were in the breadlines.

(page 149 of our book)

[Ella Gibbons]

Henry Wallace,  Mary Harriman (Averill Harriman’s sister),  Harry S. Truman, Henry Morgenthau, Alice Roosevelt Longworth.

Are you familiar with any of those names?

GUESS WHO IS COMING FOR DESSERT?  Didn’t you love the story of page 165 wherein the head of U.S. Steel was invited for dessert in MaryH’s house and was startled to confront Green, AFL president?

What was the result of that meeting?

Had you ever heard the expression "Boston marriages"before reading about it on pg. 167?  And does it matter historically whether Frances Perkins lived with wealthy women, paid part of the expenses or traded on her “celebrity” status in the government?

Of course, it makes interesting reading, but wouldn’t FP hate the publicity?  

Is it true that once a person becomes a public figure in any sphere, they must accept the fact that their private lives are going to become public?  

Is scandal in a prominent figure’s life more apt to make that person remembered in history?

[BarbStAubrey]

Henry Wallace, Sec. of Agriculture, later Vice-President, front page news along with FDR -
http://www.life.com/image/50452909

News Photo, Henry Morgenthau Jr., Secretary of the Treasury under FDR.
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/media_ph.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10007408&MediaId=6350

Mary Harriman and how women entered party politics -
http://tiny.cc/kj5Xt

Photos, Alice Roosevelt Longworth -
http://www.aliceroosevelt.com/photo-album.htm

Photo, Harry S. Truman and FDR
http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Harry-Truman-and-Franklin-D-Roosevelt-Posters_i2508523_.htm

Photo, Harry Truman with his wife, Bess and Eleanor Roosevelt.
http://www.life.com/image/50577471

[BarbStAubrey]

I remember horrifying my mother when I pasted a large full page newspaper color photo of Henry Wallace in our front window when he was running for president. Mom was an FDR man all the way - I had no clue what I was doing except he looked pretty and therefore he should be president - also he made a speech something about the common man and I thought that was it...! My Father with a catch of humor in his voice said to my Mom 'let her be - you won't be tarred and feathered'

[Ella Gibbons]

Hahahaaa BARBARA!  AND THANKS for the clickables!

DID EVERYONE SLEEP THROUGH THE WEEKEND?  It was very hot and humid in Ohio, not good walking weather, for sure!

I just got an email from Kirstin stating that she has been trying to log on, but finding a problem and asked if we had any difficulties.

I haven't, have any of you?  

Isn't it wonderful to have an author in our midst.  I am sure she will answer Jonathan and Joan's questions when she finds us.

SO WHAT ARE BOSTON MARRIAGES?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_marriage.

FP and Mary Harriman, of the Harriman family, a wealthy family, lived together in Washington, had such a relationship.  She needed a home, having very little money with her financial situation helping maintain Paul who was in and out of sanitariums and Susan who needed so much!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averill_Harriman

I'll be putting new questions in the heading today and we must move to our next chapters.  

We are halfway through our book, through Frances Perkins' life and now she arrives in the cabinet and Washington and we will hear more about FDR!

How familiar are you with that famous president?  What do you know of his life besides his marriage to Eleanor and, of course, WWII/

WAKE UP, WAKE UP!

[bellamarie]

Ella, 

Thanks EVELYN, for your comments!  Arkansas is still dry?  I had no idea!  The home of Bill Clinton, but then Bill found other pleasures didn't he?

Just like many other of our Presidents before him. 

BarbStAubrey, 

I remember horrifying my mother when I pasted a large full page newspaper color photo of Henry Wallace in our front window when he was running for president. Mom was an FDR man all the way - I had no clue what I was doing except he looked pretty and therefore he should be president - also he made a speech something about the common man and I thought that was it...! My Father with a catch of humor in his voice said to my Mom 'let her be - you won't be tarred and feathered' 

 

I wonder how many others were drawn to politcians resulting in them voting for them for the same reason you stated,  "he looked pretty and therefore he should be president".   I know JFK, Clinton and Obama can easily fall into that mind set of people.  I only say those three because they are the most recent who are very handsome and charismatic.  Does the average person really get involved enough to really know what these politicians policies are?  Not that any of them keep their promises once elected.

So it does amaze me how Frances Perkins at her first meeting with FDR stated she would consider the position ONLY if he was behind her ideas and would push them and she and FDR indeed did follow through and were not sidetracked by other special interest groups.

ADOANNIE,

Although the bill isn't completely done, just reading about those articles and pages and government control is certainly chilling to me.

They are chilling to me and 84% of the Americans who already have health care and are happy with it.  NO ONE including the committee members in charge of this health care reform bill knows exactly what it consists of and what it will cost and how we will pay for it.  A member on the committee stated on Sunday's show that this is NOT President Obama's bill because he appointed a committee and told them to come up with something.  Hmmm...Obama is out pushing for support for something he has no clue what it is.  No bill needs to be 600 - 1,000 pages, makes you wonder why so long and what are they hoping you will overlook in all those pages, if indeed you bother to read the lengthy bill at all.  The problem is its so complex because they are trying to appease the AMA, AARP, Pharmacueticals, Insurance companies, Hospitals and other special interest groups, rather than the American people.

Frances Perkins kept it pretty simple, she was for the average American, and pretty much stood up to the special interest goups back in her time.  Imagine that.  She sure had to ruffle a lot of feathers, but didn't seem to mind no matter who they were.

[ANNIE]

I am interested in reading about women in politics back then.  We had a discussion about Frank Lloyd Wright's paramor and her activity in the suffrage battles. Mamah Cheney was involved in the marches out in Colorado early in the movement. Also, don't miss watching "Iron Jawed Angels" about the suffragettes.  New movie and very well done.  I had no idea of the work that these women put into getting the vote for women.  Or how ill treated they were.  We have a lot to thank them for.

[HaroldArnold]

In Chapter 19 Frances turned to the promotion of legislation that actually created new jobs through federally financed Make Work projects.  There was considerable opposition to this legislation in congress even among the large Democrat majority.  Even FDR waffled on the cost issue.  Frances continue to call for large money appropriations necessary to give the bill effect, and once again after a private session with FDR, the President changed his stand on the issue by calling on key Democrat congressional leaders to support the necessary large appropriation of funds necessary to finance the project.  The bill passed Congress with 3.3 billion dollars to finance its ambitious jobs creation program.

The constitutionality of the bill was suspect from the start because of its provision calling for the creation of specific Industrial codes for each industry.  The provisions for writing each of these codes required labor representation and  involved infringement on basic legal issues including basic right to contract, price fixing, antitrust laws and more.  Nevertheless it would take several years for the issues to make their way through the courts.

 In Houston in 1935-36, I remember the numerous Blue Eagle-WPA posters plastered inside and outside the garage of a house across E. 16th street.  That family ran a floor refinishing business from their home financed by the Work Projects administration.  They operated several trucks each manned with a crew of 4 or 5 men with electric sanders and painting equipment.  Every little bit helped!

[bellamarie]

Ella, Had you ever heard the expression "Boston marriages"before reading about it on pg. 167?  And does it matter historically whether Frances Perkins lived with wealthy women, paid part of the expenses or traded on her “celebrity” status in the government?

Of course, it makes interesting reading, but wouldn't FP hate the publicity? 

Is it true that once a person becomes a public figure in any sphere, they must accept the fact that their private lives are going to become public?   

Is scandal in a prominent figure's life more apt to make that person remembered in history?
It's interesting how you ask about Frances trading on her celebrity status in government.  I think it is the sign of the times.  Prominent people want privacy, yet when they want to use media for their own special interests they contact the press.  I do believe once you place your life into a public position whether it be politics, hollywood, commentators, sports etc. you have to know your life to a certain point will be invaded.  I've read where certain people would call the press and alert them and invite them to be at places for their purposes, yet then complain when the press was there when they did not want the public to know what they were doing.  The press can be a double edge sword.

As far as a scandal making a person more memorable, I think in time it fades off and new generations tend to not care about it.  My kids who are in their 20's & 30's could care less about Princess Di, JFK, Bill Clinton, or John Edwards scandalous lives.  I think in the long term, a person who has done great things will be more remembered generations to come rather than scandals.  Except for Nixon,  now Watergate will probably remain a notorious, memorable event throughout history.