Author Topic: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online  (Read 107229 times)

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #160 on: July 25, 2009, 11:48:23 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

People of the Book - by Geraldine Brooks

      You'll fall in love with Hanna Heath,  Geraldine Brooks'  edgy  Aussie rare book expert with an attitude, a loner with a real passion for her work.  How could she refuse this opportunity of a lifetime, the conservation of the beautifully illustrated Sarajevo  Haggadah, the mysterious Hebrew manuscript, created in Spain in the 14th century?

The invitation will bring Hanna into war-torn Bosnia in the spring of 1996 and then,  into the world of fine art forgers and international fanatics. Her intuitive investigation  of the manuscript will put her in a time capsule to medieval Spain and  then back to Northern Australia again with a number of stops along the way.  This is based on the travels of an actual manuscript, which has surfaced over the centuries since its creation in Spain.
Discussion Schedule:

July 15-19  ~ Hanna, 1996; Insect's Wing;
    Sarajevo, 1940
 
July 20-24 ~ Hanna, Vienna, 1996; Feathers and a Rose;
 Hanna, Vienna, Spring '96
July 25-July 30 ~ #3 ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;
   Hanna, Boston, 1996
August 1 - August 5  Saltwater, Tarragona, 1492;
   Hanna, London, Spring, 1996  
August 6-August 10 White Hair, Seville, 1480;
   Hanna, Sarajevo, Spring, 1996  
August 11-15 Lola, Jerusalem, 2002;
   Hanna,  Gunumeleng, 2002  
August 16-August 20  Afterword

(click twice to really enlarge)

Topics for Discussion
July 25-July 30  ~ Wine Stains, Venice 1609;  Hanna, Boston, 1996

1.  What do you suspect is the reason for Father Vistorini's bitterness, which he drowns in the altar wine?  Why does he sense the altar boy is judging him?

2. " I am Pope everwhere except in Venice."  Why did Pope Gregory make this remark?  Why is Fr. Vistorini more concerned of late?

3. What effect did the invention of the printing press have on publishing in Venice?  How did the Jews view the printing press in Venice?

4. How does the priest's interest in his parishioners differ from the rabbi, Judah Aryeh's feelings for his congregation?  Can you explain this?

5.  How would you describe each man's weakness?  Does the author appear  to portray one more sympathetically than the other?  

6. How did the haggadah come into the hands of Dona Reyna de Serena?  What does she ask the rabbi to do with the book?  Does she have realistic hope for its return?

7.  What is it about the haggadah that startles the rabbi?  Can you describe it?  Why does he believe the illuminator must have been a Christian?  

8. Why does Vistorini say he will not pass the work, though he admits there is nothing that contravenes the Index?  What is the actual reason he will burn it?

9.  Was Galileo actually brought before the Inquisition?  What happened to him?
What do you know about the Index of the Inquisition?  

10. Why did Vistorini decide to allow the game of chance to save the manuscript from the flames?  How did it happen that the inscription was written in the book after all?  Would you say one man's weakness pervailed over the other's?  

11.  What similarities do you see in the societies of each of these stories that threaten the survival of the little book?

12.  What startling discovery does Hanna make in Boston that parallels Vistorini's? * Now that we have "laid eyes" on the formidable Dr. Sarah Heath, is she what we had expected from Hanna's description?

 
Hanna, Boston, 1996

1. Is Hanna's perceptible "edginess" attributable at least in part to the tense mother-daughter relationship?

2. Couldn't/shouldn't Dr. Sarah have tried harder years earlier?

3. Isn't a child's emotional well-being  every bit as important as the care of a doctor's patients?

4. Is a mother's deliberate silence about a child's father ever justified?  Understandable?  Pardonable?

5. Does this first frank conversation between mother and daughter fully explain  the reason for their poor relationship?  

6. Is this turn of events believable?   What if there had been no car accident?
 


Relevant Links:
Geraldine Brooks - Background information; Sarajevo Haggadah; Early Haggadah Manuscripts; Illuminated Manuscripts; Brief History of Illuminating Manuscripts;

Discussion Leaders: JoanP, Ann , JoanK,  & Traudee


ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #161 on: July 25, 2009, 11:52:00 AM »
Thanks for the link, Chazz.  

I am going to spend some more time looking for more connections to the Haggadot.  Bye for now!

Here is a most interesting layout and text about the Venice Haggadah of 1609?  Lots of explanation is here is you continue down the page to see the pages of this incredible book.
http://www.library.yale.edu/judaica/exhibits/haggadah/VeniceHaggadah.html


And here are photos of the ghetto in Venice where the Jews lived from 1516.  Fantastic photos!
http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/photos/venez3/venez301.htm

And another:  http://fcit.usf.edu/Holocaust/photos/venez3/venez3.htm#venez318






"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Radioman

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #162 on: July 25, 2009, 02:01:22 PM »
Wine Stains: what an intriguing and gripping chapter!  I am beginning to appreciate more the structuring the author has applied to the significant elements of this story.  Thus far we have learned how the clasps came to be missing.  We also recognize that  having been converted into something no longer related to their original function it is unlikely the protagonist will ever learn the truth.  In this chapter the puzzle of the wine stain and the blood were resolved.

But it is the character development of the priest and the rabbi which has captivated me.  Ms Brooks has eloquently demonstrated the weaknesses of the human condition. In the case of the priest the reason for his grievous shortcoming was revealed in the surprising dénoument of the chapter.  (There may be some who have not as yet read this far so I’ll refrain from saying more)

The author provided an interesting touch on the title page of this chapter;  she inscribed the Latin words  “Introibo ad altare Dei.”  These are the opening words spoken at the beginning of the Latin Mass which translated mean “I will go unto the altar of the Lord.” which are the words spoken by the priest in his delirium.

The matter of Carnivale poses an interesting puzzle.  Officially,the Carnivale season begins following the Epiphany, the Twelfth Day Of Christmas, or in secular terms, January 6th and concludes on Mardi Gras, the day before Lent. It is a period of feasting and merriment.  If the season is recognized at all in these modern times it is usually only for a couple of weeks before Lent.  I can only speculate that in the 1600's when strict adherence to religious matters was de rigeur, observation of the various holidays would be maintained which would mean Carnivale would extend for the full period I mentioned above.

If my speculation is correct, I wonder just when the rabbi hoped to leave Venice before Carnivale began.   Did he mean the day before Mardi Gras or the day after Epiphany, Jan 7th? Or did Ms Brooks mean Mardi Gras  and nothing more?

As with my Mahler submission this is not all that significant; merely  grist for the mill of trivial contemplation.  :)
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words

JoanK

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #163 on: July 25, 2009, 02:23:14 PM »
The pictures of the ghetto in Venice are fascinating. If I understand them, there were two ghettos (old ghetto and new ghetto) connected by a shot bridge over a narrow river. It's not clear when the "new ghetto" was built: whether it was around during the period of our story.

Some of the ghetto looks like it has been cleaned up for tourists(?!). Many of the Jews living there were desparately poor. but I assume wealthy Jews like our Hirschfeld had to live there too, so it must have been mixed. Most of the parts we see look like the wealthier parts. I suspect the scene with the washing hanging between two buildings was more typical.

Radioman

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #164 on: July 25, 2009, 03:11:50 PM »
I was taken by the ghetto pictures, which certainly add to the deeper understanding and appreciation of the story.

I noticed in the woodcut illustration of the Venice Haggadah , first panel, the celebrant is depicted carrying a censer;  is incense used in Jewish services? 

And are the terms "haggadah' and "haggodot" interchangeable?
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words

EvelynMC

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #165 on: July 25, 2009, 04:49:59 PM »
AdoAnnie:  I don't know Gladys Barry.  I have a feeling you think I'm someone else.  I was Evelyn133 in the old SeniorNet site, and changed my "name" when I came in here.  I was in Latin with Ginny for about four years, but was also in various book discussions. I just can't remember coming across Gladys, unless she posted using a different name.

Thanks for all the interesting links.

Chazz: Thanks for that link explaining "LaConvivencia".  I did not know that Muslims, Christians and Jews all lived together in Spain for over 700 years.  

Kind of makes you wonder why tolerance always seems to end.

Traude The information regarding the "Anschluss" was interesting. Were you living in Germany or Austria during the second World War?  You mentioned going to school there.

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #166 on: July 25, 2009, 05:24:43 PM »
EvelynMc,
I will have to go look for the Mc person.   ::)

Radioman,
Haggadah is singular and Haggadot is plural. 

Glad you like the Venice ghetto pictures. 
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #167 on: July 25, 2009, 08:36:16 PM »
Thank you for your posts; special thanks to ADOANNIE.

I had prepared for this segment for weeks, long before we began,  because I have a special relationship with Venice.  
But due to a misunderstanding I failed to send my questions to JoanP in time.  My sincere apologies to all of you, most especially Joan, who didn't need this unnecessary aggravation. Mea culpa, me maxima culpa.

I so wanted to post at least one view of the Venice waterfront showing the Doge's palace. One of the most famous, of course, was painted by Canaletto (1697-1768). But I'm not good at linking, and copyrights have to be considered.

My first question was to be "Did you know that the word 'ghetto' is derived from the Italian geto and that Venice was the first?"
It was. Gated; locked at night, reopened in the morning.
An indignity, wasn't' it?  Plus having to wear a distinguishing sign!

Since the allotted space was limited, there was only one way to build , UP,, and at the very top  was the sanctuary right under the sky.  
And yes, there is something about the light in Venice, a special luminosity.  Even in the dead of April, say, when acqua alta floods Piazza San Marco, St. Mark's Square, and people cloaked in raincoats make their way across rhe wooden boards,  always ready for such times.

One question looms large for me:  how old is Vistorini?
Adopted by monks when he was five or six; his extraordinary affinity for languages was soon discovered. That  became his specialty. And,\ the reason,  we assume,  for his being chosen to be Inquisitor in Venice.

Can we today have any measure  of the power the Inquisition had?
Or the power of the Catholic church over what the faithful were allowed to read?
We all heard of "banned in Boston", but do we realize what limits the Index imposed?  Where they lifted ?When?

Much to talk about : the relationship between the two men ---- what is  considered  'heretical',  gambling in the 17th century,  and the "carnevale".

Again, my apologies for posting with such delay.
Traude






















ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #168 on: July 25, 2009, 09:09:32 PM »
Traude,
So glad you are here and your post was most informative.  Can't wait to see where you take us.   ;) ;)
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Frybabe

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #169 on: July 25, 2009, 09:54:48 PM »
Quote
2. " I am Pope everywhere except in Venice."  Why did Pope Gregory make this remark?  Why is Fr. Vistorini more concerned of late?

I should probably wait until I get a chance to read this section because I cannot answer the second part until I do. However the quote, which I have heard before somewhere, seems to have something to do with the decadence and behavior of the nuns and priests in Venice. The book cited an example of the Superintendent of Convents and arrangements for the services of young women/girls (I assume of a carnal nature).

The only reference I can find for the quote, oddly, is one book published around 1905. Venice, the place and the people, by Francis Marion Crawford. Google books has the entire book online for your reading pleasure. I wonder if Gutenberg does.

Now I am curious about the author of the book. I'm glad I looked him up. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Marion_Crawford

Radioman

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #170 on: July 26, 2009, 12:25:10 AM »
I would speculate that Pope Gregory XV's words were based a lingering feud between Rome and Venice which began in the early 1600's.  The two states argued over who had authority over whom,  Venice passed a law making it illegal for a Venetian to bequeath money to Rome.  Rome then excommunicated Venice. Venice expelled all the Jesuits.  They eventually kissed and made up but I would guess there was still an undercurrent which made Pope Gregory uneasy.
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #171 on: July 26, 2009, 08:54:57 AM »
Frybabe,
Very interesting bio of the author, Francis M Crawford.  I wonder if any of his historical fiction titles are still available?  In looking him up, you have brought to us a prolific American author who is a new name in the cache of authors around that time.  And now, due to technology, he has a book online at Google.

So I "googled" it and take a look at this!
http://books.google.com/books?id=oIcZAAAAYAAJ&dq=Venice,+the+place+and+the+people&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=uVxkQNQXJh&sig=toOKfr5je5SKSBf3B1518ryqYUQ&hl=en&ei=TlJsSuCyE8j7tgfMyoCbAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1

The illustrations are quite interesting, some a little blurry, as this is a scanned copy of the 1909 edition of the book itself.  Its so tempting to look through the whole book, just to see the drawings but I must have breakfast first.

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #172 on: July 26, 2009, 11:25:09 AM »
JoanK

We met Dr. Hirschfeldt in turn-of-the-century Vienna, Austria.

In "Wine Stains", Hanna takes up back in time to 1609 and Venice, a city like no other, rising out of the Adriatic Sea.  Called "Serenissima" = most serene, and "Queen of the Sea". The city is crisscrossed by canals  large and small and too many bridges to count.  Canal Grande is the largest canal;  []Ponte Rialto[/i] = Rialto bridge the largest bridge, il ponte dei sospiri = the Bridge of Sighs a famous small one.

(Would it be possible to link a picture or two of the Venetian lagoon, perhaps an aerial one,  so that we can get a "feel" for this unique city? Thank you in advance.)

The area called "Cannareggio Sestiere" was officially assigned to Jews in 1516. Successive waves of immigrants arrived after systematic persecutions, hence the "ghetto vecchio" and  the "ghetto nuovo" (or novo). Men had to wear an identifying piece of yellow cloth and women a yellow scarf. But there were no repressions against Jews in Venice; the city became a haven for them.  And when Napoleon conquered Venice in 1797, Jews became full citizens. The 18th century, called "sette centro" in Italian, was one of the culturally most important periods in Venice.

JoanP's  Q. 1.
Vistorini's trembling hands are a clear give-away. He is resentful  that the altar boy noticed.
Is that resentment an indication that he feels guilty?
Do I understand correctly that it is the UNconsecrated (not the altar) wine that is the irresistible temptation?

Q. 2.  I feel that Don's interpretation is logical.

Q.4. Vistorini's ministrations to his parishioners are perfunctory at best.  He is, I believe, increasingly consumed with his tasks as an inquisitor; assailed by doubts not felt as strongly before;  incredulous that "heretical" thoughts are still being printed; chiding himself for not being more persuasive in his theological and philosophical debates with Rabbi Judah; fanatically convinced he can get the rabbi to see the "truth" of una sancta.

Again I ask, how old is Vistorini?  He was adopted at age 6, lived in Venice for thirty years,  has been a inquisitor for seventeen, an alcoholic for how long? 
He comes across as an old man.  Is he, really?


 

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #173 on: July 26, 2009, 11:31:07 AM »
While searching for an aerial view of Venice, I came across these photos of some important buildings in Venice.
http://www.italyguides.it/us/venice_italy/venice_travel.htm


And here is an aerial view from the same site.  This map is interactive!


http://www.italyguides.it/us/venice_italy/interactive_map_of_venice/map_of_venice.php

This page also offers a free audio tour of Venice.


"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #174 on: July 26, 2009, 11:52:17 AM »
Catching my breath here.

My grandson (13) was here overnight,  after the first really hot and sultry day in Massachusetts.   He and his school chum Kieran slept in a tent in the backyard.  Never a dull moment!

Claire,  my thoughts are with you.  Take care of your eyes as much as possible. We've to be careful with the vision we have left.   I'm  in the same boat, as you know.

Evelyn and # 165.
Yes,   I was in Germany and Italy during the war.   And I lived in Venice after the war.  A long story ...  Two lives, really...

Chazz and [b/Babi[/b],  on the interpretation of history:  very well put.
Thank you for 'tautology'. I smiled at the memory from decades back.  It includes pleonasm, not a synonym but related.

Radioman I have book-marked the site but lost the schedule.  Will search.

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #175 on: July 26, 2009, 12:08:16 PM »
Wow, take a look at this interactive photo of the Grand Council Chamber.


http://www.italyguides.it/us/venice_italy/doge_s_palace/sala_del_maggior_consiglio/grand_council_chamber.htm



When I say these are interactive, I mean,  if one sees the arrows in the middle of this photo and presses on the different ones, one can see a panorama of this magnificent room.  IMHO, the art is breathtaking!!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

winsummm

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #176 on: July 26, 2009, 01:23:53 PM »
annie that is amazing.  what is the floor made of? not marbel?  how to get close ups to the wall art.
claire :)
thimk

winsummm

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #177 on: July 26, 2009, 01:30:00 PM »
annie the haggadah illustrations look like woodcuts to me.  I was looking for coor as in the book. hmm
thimk

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #178 on: July 26, 2009, 05:11:19 PM »
Clair,
Are you looking at the Venice Haggadah??  Those are wood cut illustrations and very well done, in spite of no color. The printer points out many innovations that were printed in this version.  
"He claims that innovations have been made on each and every page not only with regard to the text but also with regard to the design of the page and in the interaction of image with text." Yale University Library

I don't know what the Chamber floors were made of but if you see the down arrow in the middle of the bottom of the picture and hold that down with your mouse, the picture will start roll and show a better picture of the floor which looks like a mixture of many pieces, like granite.  What do you think???
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #179 on: July 26, 2009, 05:28:15 PM »
ADOANNIE
Many thanks for linking these treasures.  That's exactly what I had in mind.
Thank you very, very much.  

Q. 9
Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)  was the foremost scientist of his day.  Though he never left Italy, his inventions and discoveries were heralded around the world.
In 1609, Galileo built a telescope with 20 times the magnification; he telescopically confirmed the phases of Venus; he discovered the four largest satellites of Jupiter, named "Galilean moons" in his honor.  He championed the theories of Polish astronomer Nicholas Copernicus (born ca. 90 years earlier).  But when he publicly declared that the sun, NOT the earth, was the center of the universe, he ran afould of Catholic doctrine.
He was tried  by the Holy Office of the Inquisition,  found "vehemently suspect of heresy", forced to recant,  and ordered to spend his last years under house arrest.
Recommended reading:  Galileo's Daughter by Dava Sobel, a stunning portrait of a person who would otherwise have been lost to history.  The discussed the book here several years ago.


Radioman

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #180 on: July 26, 2009, 10:29:22 PM »
Quotation-straudetwo: "Do I understand correctly that it is the UNconsecrated (not the altar) wine that is the irresistible temptation?"

Just to clarify the matter of the wine,  it is all, generically speaking, 'altar wine'  It is consecrated during the liturgy of the Mass and is consumed entirely before the celebrant leaves the altar. (There are variants to this of course, but it is always consumed.) To put consecrated wine back on shelf with the other wine would be a sacrilege of the highest order.  The communion hosts which are part of the communion ceremony along with the wine are also consecrated, but in the case of unconsumed wafers they are locked away in the tabernacle.

So the priest's temptation would by default be for the unconsecrated wine and nothing more than the craving of an alcoholic.
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words

Babi

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #181 on: July 27, 2009, 08:56:39 AM »
 I agree with CHAZZ, that the cycle of tolerance to intolerance is a keynote in this book.  And Evenly asks why
intolerance keeps returning.  I take it for granted that the intolerant are always among us.  My question is why
the rest of us allow them to rise to power time and again?  Of  course there can be no simple answer to that question.
There are a number of factors involved, one of which would be hard times and the desire to find someone to blame.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Mippy

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #182 on: July 27, 2009, 09:25:45 AM »
Back several pages, AdoAnnie asked  ... [were such] clasps, so beautifully made, commonly put on every Haggadah?    and I didn't see anyone else mention this.  
Clasps were characteristic of fine, expensive books of that period, but an every-day haggadah would not be such a book, just a rough guide to the Passover service.   Therefore, I think GB is giving us incite into those books in general by giving such a detailed history of the clasps.
                                                              
Was it Don/Radioman who asked about use of a censer for burning incense in Jewish services?  The answer is no,  incense is not used in any Jewish rituals that I'm aware of.
          
Here is a link that tells more:     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censer
quot libros, quam breve tempus

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #183 on: July 27, 2009, 11:49:48 AM »
Mippy, I think we would have to examine the early Christian illuminated manuscripts to get an idea of the sort of clasps described here, don't you?  This was not the usual haggadah manuscript of the period.  

Babi, I've been thinking about what's been said about the cycle of tolerance/intolerance since yesterday.  I guess i find it hard to believe there really were such  periods of religious/racial tolerance - because of the human condition - the haves and the have nots.  Am i being too cynical?  Perhaps among the poor...there is more of the tolerance we are talking about here.

Don, you're right about the consecrated/unconsecrated wine - but it seems to me that Father Vistorini was getting satisfaction from both the consecrated AND the unconsecrated wine.  This man has a real problem.

Is this why he's bitter? Or is he drinking because he's bittler?   Do you think he is physically ill?  Is the bookburning getting to him?  Or is it something else?


straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #184 on: July 27, 2009, 01:21:37 PM »
JoanP and Radioman,

First my apologies for my singularly unnecessary question concerning altar wine. It embarrasses me.

Raised a Lutheran in the predominantly Catholic Rhineland, I married a Catholic (which scandalized my family as much as our eventual emigration did), and became an Episcopalian in this country.  For us it was the perfect solution. We never argued about religious issues.

What led me to that question was a review in the NYT by Liz Fugard specifically this paragraph in the NYT by Liza Fugard:

An inscription in the real Sarajevo Haggadah reads  Revisto per mi. Gio. Domenico Vistorini 1609.    Taken with the notion that a Catholic priest surveying the index during the Inquisition might choose to save it, Brooks creates another memorable character, an erudite scholar with "an innate reverence for books." Sometimes he finds "the beauty of the Saracens' fluid calligraphy moved him. Other times it was the elegant argument of a learned Jew that gave him pause." This priest haunts the sacristy for draughts of unconsecrated communion wine, intent on obliterating painful memories from his childhood - "the blowing sand of that desolate town," .... not to ention thoughts of all the texts he has sent to the fires in his 17 years as a  censor.

I should have brought that question to our Rector !  Hhahaha

JoanP,  there were more  (and longer) periods of INtolerance than tolerance, I believe.  Religious fervor caused the Crusades
and the Thirty-Years War from 1618-1648 (of which we don't hear much in our  history classes). There were other religious wars.
And if war were not devastating enough,  there were systematic efforts to exterminate people of different ethnicity, most ignominiously under Hitler.    Still, we must not forget the repeated pogroms against Jews in Russia and elsewhere. We've had other villains since Hitler and Stalin, and  several potential powder kegs make us uneasy ...

BTW, where could Father Dom's home have been?  He has memories of glaring light, dust driven by scorching winds. Where could he have gotten such a persistent, strong accent?  It is unusual for a child of 5 ot 6 to retain an accent. In my (long) experience it is much more common for children to instantly absorb the language of their environment; to stay bilingual or trilingual is easy for them as well. It was certainly true for my daughter, who was 4 when we came here. I spoke to her in German and Italian.  She learned to speak English from listening, observing and, yes, from  watching TV with a tiny screen.

The question of the priest's age continues to concern me.  We are led to believe that he and the rabbi are contemporaries.  But the information we are given on the priest does not match this.  
  

ChazzW

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #185 on: July 27, 2009, 07:35:22 PM »
The question of the priest's age continues to concern me.  We are led to believe that he and the rabbi are contemporaries.  But the information we are given on the priest does not match this.
Venice 1609. Vistorini has been in Venice for 30 years. He was 6 when he came to the city. That would make him 36 or so, born circa1573. In 1589 "the young priest".....a 16 year old priest?
Chazz

JoanK

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #186 on: July 27, 2009, 08:55:51 PM »
I'm having trouble visualizing the clasps. A rose, enfolded by wings. But we are told the roses will make earrings, and the wings a broach (presumably with a hole in it where the rose was?) They must have been big.

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #187 on: July 27, 2009, 09:13:07 PM »
Venice 1609. Vistorini has been in Venice for 30 years. He was 6 when he came to the city. That would make him 36 or so, born circa1573. In 1589 "the young priest".....a 16 year old priest?
It says in 1589 the young priest had been a natural choice to work as censor.  It also says (same page, p. 180) "For 17 years (that would be 1592), almost his whole life in holy orders, Domenico had read and passed judgment on the works of alien faith."  That would make him 19, more believable.  In any case, he has to be in his 30s now.  He doesn't seem that young.  What a mess he is: he vomits in the early morning, his walk is unsteady, his hands tremble, the sip of consecrated wine steadies him a little, but he only really feels better when he has had a few good swigs of unconsecrated wine.  I don't know how long it takes for someone to get into that state, but it looks like he is deteriorating rapidly.

How old is Judah Aryeh?  He has been married for 24 years, so presumably in his 40s, older than Vistorini, but not a lot.

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #188 on: July 28, 2009, 10:16:51 AM »
Chazz, PatH - thanks for confirming my suspicion that Fr. Vistorini is only 36 years old.  I agree with you - his position as Inquisitor is certainly taking its toll on him.  It must be difficult to love books - and be forced to burn so many beautiful copies.  They are printed copies, though.  He probably hasn't burned too many hand-lettered, illuminated manuscripts on parchment, do you think?

He seems a lonely man - not really connected with his parishioners, no wife, and at odds with the city fathers - the doge and the ten - who we are told, views Rome and her "minions"  with scorn.  He's also trying to grasp the dreams of his mother and his former home - but they elude him.  He also must make an effort to shake a thick accent he's had since childhood.  Are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Contrast him with the Rabbi - a happily married man, (what is Bride's Shabbat - is it still a custom?), loved by his congregation and in a position to negotiate with Fr. Vistorini to save Jewish texts from the flames.  Do you think he's the same age as Fr. Vistorini, Traude?  

But what's wrong with the rabbi?  He's having chest pains.  Is it his heart?  He also has a weakness - he likes to sneak out of the Geto at night - to mingle with the Gentiles.  What's that about?  Does he like to mingle with Gentiles - or to match wits with them in games of chance?




Babi

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #189 on: July 28, 2009, 11:10:30 AM »
JOANP,  I think 'tolerance' in any given period is probably a relative thing.  Venice, where the Pope was not so greatly influential and the Inquisition much weaker, was very 'tolerant' by the standards of that time.  Intolerance is still present in our own society today, but nothing like what it was 50 years ago.  What was considered 'tolerance' then wouldn't
begin to qualify as such now.
  One of the most encouraging things I've seen in the past few years, is that people did rise and protest, effectively,
the quashing of individual rights and liberties that took place in Guantanamo.  As far as I'm concerned, the events there
were a 'wedge' that could have opened us up to much worse and more widespread loss of liberty.  We didn't let it
happen, thank Heaven!

Dern, CHAZZ posted something I wanted to comment on,  but now I can't find it.  I'm lost without my notepad.
Hopefully, I will be home by tomorrow night with all my tools in reach.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #190 on: July 28, 2009, 02:12:27 PM »
Babi.  True.

But tolerance encouraged and proclaimed is not the same as sanctioning the implementation and practice thereof.  Even within the Church. Case in point, though off topic.

As reported in an article in the NYT by Laury Goodstein on July 1, 2009,
"The Vatican is quietly conducting two sweeping investigations of American Nuns, a development that has startled and dismayed nuns who fear they are the targets of a doctrinal inquisition."  
The "quietly"  and "doctrinal inquisition" (!).   But I won't say anything ele.

The Brothers spotted the boy's extraordinary affinity for languages early on  and "educated him in Greek and Aramaic, Hebrew  and Arabic, and he absorbed it all."   Doubtless it took years.  
From all indications Father Dom was an efficient, zealous, increasingly argumentative servant of the Holy Office. Shouldn't he have been elevated to Monsignor after 15 years, let alone 17?

Questions arise also about he rabbi's weakness: gambling.  Sarai, his wife knows about it.  
He received apparently received donations from Doña  Reyna  before.
Had he gambled  with them  (and perhaps lost them) then too?

How do we feel about Question 5?  
Is the reader asked to distinguish between the weakness of each man; is one weakness more destructive in its effects than the other?
Is GB/Hanna telling us that the rabbi suffered a fatal heart attack?
What about the priest?

We haven't talked about the bells yet : It's the first word in the chapter.  
The Marangona specifically is mentioned.  It is the only bell that survived the collapse of the bell tower (campanile in Italian) in 1902.  The chimed of the bells housed within announced the routines of the workday for artisans and noblemen alike. Each bell had a different sound and pitch and its own name.  The present Campanile dates from 1912 and the Marangona is much beloved. . Its unforgettable sound can be heard solo at midnight.

PatH

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #191 on: July 28, 2009, 04:25:35 PM »

How do we feel about Question 5?  
Is the reader asked to distinguish between the weakness of each man; is one weakness more destructive in its effects than the other?
Is GB/Hanna telling us that the rabbi suffered a fatal heart attack?
What about the priest?

Both compulsive gambling and alcoholism are sicknesses, and both are horribly destructive, but alcoholism is worse.  Gambling may impoverish you, but at least it leaves your body intact.  Vistorini is not going to be able to drink on that monstrous scale for long before he ruins his body.  Brooks is sympathetic to both men--showing you clearly their weakness and stress--without condoning or making excuses.

It's a little ambiguous, but yes, I think the rabbi suffered a fatal heart attack, whereas Vistorini just collapsed into a drunken fog.  One thing puzzles me, though.  How did the haggadah get back to Reyna de Serena?  Since we next hear of it in Sarajevo, presumably she took it with her when she emigrated, but Vistorini didn't know who the owner was, and Aryeh seems to be out of it.

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #192 on: July 28, 2009, 05:51:48 PM »
Maybe the Rabbi's weakness was more destructive because he had so much more to lose? I think the author outdid herself in the portrayal of these two men.

It seems as if the Rabbi's weakness got the better of him - he bet everything on chance and that is what caused his downfall.  I still don't understand the reason for his gambling.  He stood to lose so much.  Was it simply the excitement?  Or something else?

"The blood eddied, trapped and sluggish, in the fissured chambers of his breaking heart.  As his feet landed on the hard stone, fists seemed to strike his chest, the blows of a giant."
Traudee, it sounds to me that the rabbi has indeed suffered a heart attack - brought on by Father Vistorini's  threats to burn the book - and bring charges against his friend for heresy. We know Father Vistorini is overly drunk - the Rabbi helped him get to this state, didn't he?  What caused the priest to turn on him as he did?  He seems to be holding the Rabbi responsible for forcing him to burn books and persecute the Jews.

Now we  know how the wine stain got on the book, mixed with the blood - I think it's clear the rabbi is dead.  At  least he'll not have to explain to Dona de Serena what has happened to the manuscript.   So if she didn't get it out of Venice, then how did it get to Sarajevo, Pat  asks?    The last we see it, it is on Father Vistorini's desk.  It has been spared.  But now what?  It seems the priest will live - plus, he has suddenly remembered his family, his roots.  Can he continue now in his role as Inquisitor and a man of the Church?

Interesting that if the wine stain could have had  a DNA test it would have shown that the drop came from a Jewish man.

ANNIE

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #193 on: July 28, 2009, 06:19:55 PM »
From what I have read on the other Venice site that I left a link for,  the Festival time used to last quite long.  From Epiphany to the first day of Lent!  I don't think the length of it changes our book thought.

Just opened my National Geographic and guess what they have featured this month----VENICE!  There is a good map of the island too so I will go look for that if anyone wants to see it.

"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #194 on: July 28, 2009, 06:37:59 PM »
Thank you, JoanP and PatH
The only thing that mattered in this case was the haggadah. And it survived.

Now, would it be too far-fetched to think for a moment that somehow it was hidden in the carved-out madonna by the door that had held the secret Hebrew text?   And smuggled out that way?  Why ever not?  GB left that one wide open :)  

 Noone but the rabbi knew of the connection with Doña Reyna de Serena.  And she had entrusted the book to the rabbi specifically because she wanted to avoid the risk of its being found on HER person --  if she were searched before leaving Venice.  Even though the Doge himself had assured her of safe passage,  she wanted to be sure.  

JoanK I saw just such a clasp many years ago in a museum. It was not made of massive/i] silver but of very delicate filigree worked into an intricate  design I don't recall.  it was square and had a tiny knob (for want of a better word) in the middle.  The other half of the clasp, larger so as to accommodate  the thickness of the volume,  neatly fit on the top half.  An orifice met the tiny knob. The result:  perfect closure.  
I hope it has helped a little.

JoanP

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #195 on: July 28, 2009, 07:27:48 PM »
Annie, let us know what you read about Venice - I came in to say that i just opened the Smithsonian Magazine - big cover spread on Galileo.  We do need to talk about the Inquisition and how it got started in the first place.

Oh, and I think I know how the book got to Sarajevo - well, not really, but in this fictional work...  You have to go back a chapter - to Hanna, Vienna, Spring 1996 to find the first of two clues - because I'm not telling! ;D

JoanK

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #196 on: July 28, 2009, 09:04:30 PM »
Yes, JoanP: it's very difficult to follow the story forward in time, because it is told backward. the clue to what happened at the end of one section, is always in the section before: when you read it, you don't remember it because you don't have the information yet to understand it.

"I still don't understand the reason for his gambling". It's hard for those of us who aren't compulsive gamblers to understand those who are. I know someone who lost everything he had several times gambling: finally his family kept all assets away from him so he couldn't gamble them away.

JoanK

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #197 on: July 28, 2009, 09:11:15 PM »
BABI:" I think 'tolerance' in any given period is probably a relative thing". That is one thing I really like about this book. It shows how relative tolerance was/is for the Jews: tolerance comes to mean they can live and work, even if all kinds of humiliation was heaped on them.

It also shows how fragile that tolerance was (is?). Periods of great "tolerance" suddenly followed by periods of oppression. Perhaps one of the reasons that more Jews didn't take advantage of the narrow period when they could have gotten out of Germany was that they really couldn't believe they were in danger.

straudetwo

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #198 on: July 29, 2009, 01:23:59 PM »
According to the reading schedule we have about two days left to discuss the second chapter in this particular segment,
Hanna, Boston, Spring 1996.  
Proposed questions were added to the header for your consideration.

Hanna's tireless  search for clues on the haggadah's journey is temporarily overshadowed by events and stunning revelations that are bound to profoundly affect her life.    The passionate Haggadah search continues, of course.

Until now we'd heard only ONE voice lamenting the bad mother-daughter relationship. Some of us  probably thought "oh, poor Hanna". I  certainly did.  HOW do we feel now, having heard the voice of "the other side"?
And HOW persuasive  is either voice after such a long  period of time?

Uncharacteristically, Dr. Sarah is in a "debilitated" conditon; for once no longer in control. There are no patients in immediate need of life-saving surgery; no important papers to deliver to academe ; the nurses attending her in Boston are  demed "incompetent".

What does the reader make of all this?
Where was GB really going with this?


Just imagine, briefly, that this sudden avalanche of heretofore intentionally withheld information had crashed down on a person  less strong as Hanna intellectually and emotionally ?

Radioman

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Re: People of the Book ~ Geraldine Brooks ~ July 15 ~ Book Club Online
« Reply #199 on: July 29, 2009, 02:03:36 PM »
In one of my initial posts I posited that the relationship between mother and daughter was on a love/hate basis.  I felt that deep down she loves her mother, and having read the latest chapter I feel vindicated in my first assessment. The concern Hannah demonstrated was not that of a daughter who hates her mother.  To me it's a case of "we'll agree to disagree, but I'll be there when you need me."    Her immediate response to the news of her mother's accident bears that out.  

The revelations of her mother's closely guarded history and Hannah's new-found heritage has come as a great shock: the extent of which led her to a drunken stupor.  If there had been no accident then nothing would have changed and they would have continued to go their separate ways.  I find the narrative both plausible and compelling because we now see Hannah's mother capable of being emotional.

This has been the most moving chapter thus far.


As a matter of interest, there is a marvelous description of Venice in the fourth canto of Bryon's  Childe Harold's Pilgrimage   Byron
Polonius:  What do you read my lord?
Hamlet:    Words,  words,  words