Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

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January-February Book Club Online

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society. The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Part 5   Feb.12-Feb.21     Feb. 12 - Feb.18}       Chapter 41. Gathering Clouds       Chapter 42. Storm Bursts       Chapter 43. Cynthia's Confession       Chapter 44. Molly Gibson To The Rescue       Chapter 45. Confidences       Chapter 46. Hollingford Gossips       Chapter 47. Scandal And Its Victims

Some Things to Think About

Feb. 12-18 Chapters XLI-XLVII ~ (...)

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER XLI.     Gathering Clouds
     Do you find it suspenseful to hear again about Roger's fever in letters that are several weeks old?
      What causes Molly to doubt Cynthia's love for Roger?
      Are we yet able to understand more why Cynthia doesn't want her arrangement with Roger to be made known? We're still kept in suspense about the "gathering clouds."
      What do you think of Miss Browning's admonitions to both Molly and Mrs. Gibson?
     
CHAPTER XLII.   Storm Bursts
     What happens when Molly finds Cynthia with Mr. Preston? What storm bursts? What does Molly learn?
What are Molly's thoughts when she and Cynthia return home?

CHAPTER XLIII  Cynthia's Confession
     Has your opinion of Cynthia changed because of what you've learned in her "confession?" Do you feel more or less sympathy for her? Do you understand Cynthia's actions as a 16 year-old? Do you understand her subsequent actions/feelings?
    Has your opinion of Cynthia's mother changed based on what you've heard from Cynthia in this chapter?
    What are Molly's main concerns after she hears everything from Cynthia?
   
CHAPTER XLIV  Molly Gibson To The Rescue
     What do you think of Molly during her meeting with Mr. Preston?
     What do you think of Preston?
     Do you foresee some mischief coming about from Mr. Sheepshank seeing Molly and Mr. Preston together?
     How does Cynthia misjudge Molly?

CHAPTER XLV   Confidences
     What are Molly's reactions to her being involved in Cynthia's secret?
     What do you think about Cynthia's behavior and what she asks of Molly now that the letters have been returned?
     What do you think about Osborne's confidence and his assessments of Molly and Cynthia?

CHAPTER XLVI  Hollingford Gossips
    How does the gossip about Molly escalate?
    Do you find that Mrs. Gaskell inserted humorous characterizations of the various speakers amid the gossip?

CHAPTER XLVII  Scandal And Its Victims
    What do we learn in the beginning of this chapter about Cynthia's feelings toward Molly?
    How does Mrs. Gibson characterize her/one's duty toward the sick?
    What does Mr. Preston think when he heard some of the rumors about Molly and him?
    Do you understand the Miss Brownings actions?
   What do you think of Mr. Gibson's reactions to hearing from Miss Browning?


 

DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln, 
PatH,  ADOANNIE

[bellamarie]

“Mrs. Gibson came back full of rose-coloured accounts of London."

This says it all......rose-coloured indeed.  It's ALL ABOUT ME!  

[JoanP]

Must have been through that prism, Bella.

[marcie]

Bellamarie and JoanP, of course you are right that neither Cynthia or her mother are coming out at all favorably in these chapters.

Joan, I agree that Mrs. Gibson's comments verge on caricature of herself. In some ways it's quite funny.

I don't think that the sentence "Mr. Gibson's poor present of ten pounds shrank into very small dimensions compared with all this munificence.” was meant to be a direct quote by Mrs. Gibson but just part of the narrative and acknowledgment of his gift shrank in lack of mention by herself amid all of her talk about Cynthia's hosts and how much they were showering on Cynthia.

Both Mrs. Gibson and Cynthia seem oblivious to the extent they each focus almost entirely on themselves. They seem to have developed habits of rationalizing that twist things around in their heads so that by their logic they are the victims. Mrs. Gibson also seems to think that she is acting heroically at times. At least Cynthia doesn't see herself as a hero, though didn't she say early on that she might have one heroic act in her?

[marcie]

I've been noticing Molly's thoughts about Roger. She seems to be willing herself to think of Roger as a brother rather than anything more. In CHAPTER XLII, Storm Bursts, what comes to Molly's mind when she and Cynthia return home? Roger seems to be first in her thoughts.

[bellamarie]

Heroine is the last word that comes to mind, to describe Clare or Cynthia.  To perform a heroic act, you would need to step outside of yourself, to do for others.  They don't seem capable of that.  When Clare says Mr. Gibson's ten pounds shrank, my mouth just hung open.  I saw that as saying he was cheap, compared to the uncle's generosity.  I sense Cynthia will end up with Mr. Henderson, he is the new handsome, wealthy, successful man, and we all know that is what Cynthia and Clare are expecting in a husband for her. 
Run Henderson...Run......

[marcie]

Bellamarie, so you think that Cynthia is going to break Roger's heart and marry someone else. I guess we'll soon see if she does and what will motivate her.

We've talked quite a bit about Cynthia. What about Molly? What do you think of Molly during her meeting with Mr. Preston?

[JoanP]

 Mr. Gibson's respect and high regard is so important to Cynthia. So important that she threatens to leave the house if he learns of the business with Mr. Preston. She doesn't worry so much about her mother, does she? She tells Molly she has made fun of Clare in those letters. Another reason for enlisting Molly's help getting them back.  What would Clare think - or do if she read them?

" She isn't capable of strong affection because she has never seen it."  I can't help but wonder about her own father, PatH ...have forgotten how old she was when he died. Does anyone remember?  Clare doesn't waste any opportunity to comment on how caring and loving was her first husband, Cynthia's father. I know to take whatever Clare says about them for what they are...the opposite of the truth.  Has Cynthia no memories of her affectionate father?

[JoanP]

Molly understands Cynthia's distress...wants to help her however she can.  I feel she wants to protect Cynthia's honor for Roger's sake.  She "feels she has right on their side."  "Will try to walk the straight path."

I look at her as Joan of Arc...facing the enemy with complete confidence and belief in her cause. Preston has "no right to keep the letters, legal or moral...no right at all." She stands up to him with a "steady look of courageous innocence."

When Mr. Preston realizes that Molly has cleverly bested him, " he perceives that Molly is not aware she's a woman and he is a man."  ?  What did you make of this?

[Jonathan]

Quote
"It rises above what could have been "soap opera."

I totally agree with that. I find myself  wondering what young readers would have got out of this book, when it came out. It must have been fascinating to read about the experiences of these two teenagers, too young to be allowed to join in the card parties of older women, not having 'come out' yet. Clare's doing the best she can for them. Clare does show redeeming graces at times. It's almost as if the author realizes how hard she is on Mrs. Gibson. At the end of chapter 41 we read this: 'Mrs Gibson was always kind to poor people.' And goes off to look for bandages for an injured child. That gets Clare a pass into heaven from me. The marriage is turning into a disaster for her. As it is for Mr Gibson. Molly has become the talk of the town with her scandalous behavior. Her father is so angry he could horsewhip Mr Preston and poison those with slanderous tongues. The scandal has left Mr Preston discomfited and mortified. (Ch Scandal and its victims) But it's Cynthia, I believe, who is the unhappiest character in the book. 'I'm in a scrape. I suppose I'll always be in a scrape.' This is all to real for soap opera. I get the impression that Gaskell knew much more about life that the better known women writers of her time.

I watche the third disc of Wives and Daughters last night, with its Special Features. All very interesting. And of course it was said: 'This was the first real soap opera'. This is a literary soap opera'. About Molly: 'Saintly', 'Such a drip'. About Clare: 'Shallow and daffy'. Never have I read a book open to more interpretations.

A happy ending seems more and more unlikely. I believe the author herself found the story going out of control.

[ANNIE]

Joanp, yes Cynthia does remember her father but when she wants to feel sad and cry about her father, her mother won't allow it?  I am going in search of this soliloquy which Cynthia tells Molly.  I am searching for it.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,

"Clare does show redeeming graces at times. It's almost as if the author realizes how hard she is on Mrs. Gibson. At the end of chapter 41 we read this: 'Mrs Gibson was always kind to poor people.' And goes off to look for bandages for an injured child. That gets Clare a pass into heaven from me.

Oh dear Jonathon, I have to be truthful and tell you when I read this in the chapter,  I found this to be humorous.  I laughed out loud when I read it, thinking Gaskell was being facetious saying this.  I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

Jonathon,

I watched the third disc of Wives and Daughters last night, with its Special Features. All very interesting. And of course it was said: 'This was the first real soap opera'. This is a literary soap opera'. About Molly: 'Saintly', 'Such a drip'. About Clare: 'Shallow and daffy'. Never have I read a book open to more interpretations.

Oh my, so I was not off base seeing this as a (literary) soap opera. Interesting how some feel it "rises above" a soap when in fact it is considered a soap opera. Calling it a soap opera, does not lower the quality of the writing, I know many people see television soap operas, having less quality in writing abilities, but after growing up on them, and watching one particular one, for 50 yrs, (I refuse to stop, since my Mom passed away 25 yrs ago, and this was one of her favorite ones,) I see the writing quality the same as a literary soap, just the actors/actresses you see, I feel gives us a better perspective on the characters.  And yes, open to interpretation, is for certain, in this story.  It's all in an individual's, personal perspective, as to how they see each character.  

JoanP., I so agree with you, I do think Molly has more of Roger's feelings at stake in this whole mess, and feels she has to make every attempt to right Cynthia's wrong, to prevent Roger from knowing, and having a broken heart.  Yes, thank you for reminding us of the fact, Cynthia has spoken ill about Clare in her letters.  Oh how I would LOVE to get my hands on those letters myself!!

Just a reminder, there was the discrepancy about how old Cynthia was when her father died.  Clare told Molly in the first chapters when she first met her, she was a widow of seven months, Cynthia told Molly she was only 4 years old and no one thought she would be old enough to have any feelings about it.  Clare has spoken more highly of the late Mr. Kirkpatrick recently, I think due to the fact she and Gibson are not getting along.  She makes a reference to how she may have valued their love more but she was young back then.  Hmmm....again that would seem like Cynthia was only 4 yrs old, when Mr. K. died, since Clare says young love, which if he had died only seven months before, it would not have been so young, since Cynthia was eleven yrs old at the time.  Cynthia spoke with affection for her Dad, so I have always had the impression, he was a nice person and he loved Clare very much, from her references in the book.  Which I am too tired at this point, to go find. I do recall Cynthia sharing with Molly how much her father loved her.  So, Clare and Cynthia have known what it is like to be loved.

Ciao for now~  

[Lucylibr]

I took the remark that Clare is kind to the poor at face value. She is shallow and lacks insight into herself and others and is just not aware of what others are feeling she is so absorbed in herself. But I don't think she is evil. And I think that's what Mrs. Gaskell is saying, that she is a limited person whom we shouldn't feel too muchg animosity toward.

I thought it was remarkable the way Molly stood up to her father at his harshest and after all that even coaxes him to kiss her.  She appears rather fragile and not very mature, sort of an awkward unworldly teenager, but when tested she is strong and can stand up to the hard criticism of the person she most loves and admires. I think most young girls would give up the secret under such pressure and throw Cynthia under the bus. Instead she endures the bad opinions of the towns people and waits for the truth to be revealed in its own time.  She is aware of a cooling in Cynthia's attitude toward her and feels bad about it.  She wants the love and good opinion of others but will not betray a trust to gain them.

[Lucylibr]

I don't object to the soap opera quality of the novel. Downton Abbey, which is very well presented,  is kind of a soap opera. I am just very far behind with many episodes I look forward to watching.  I don't keep up with series like that very well which is why I don't watch them.

[marcie]

JoanP, Here's a part, in Chapter XIX, about Cynthia's memories of her father:

Cynthia says: "I don't think love for one's mother quite comes by nature; and remember how much I have been separated from mine! I loved my father, if you will," she continued, with the force of truth in her tone, and then she stopped; "but he died when I was quite a little thing, and no one believes that I remember him. I heard mamma say to a caller, not a fortnight after his funeral, 'Oh, no, Cynthia is too young; she has quite forgotten him'—and I bit my lips, to keep from crying out, 'Papa! papa! have I?' But it's of no use. Well, then mamma had to go out as a governess; she couldn't help it, poor thing! but she didn't much care for parting with me. I was a trouble, I daresay. So I was sent to school at four years old; first one school, and then another; and in the holidays, mamma went to stay at grand houses, and I was generally left with the schoolmistresses."

Even though she might have felt loved by her father, her mother was probably with her more of the time than her father while she was an infant and toddler. And she might have felt abandoned by her father when he died.

Lucy, I think that's a good assessment of Claire when you say: "She is shallow and lacks insight into herself and others and is just not aware of what others are feeling she is so absorbed in herself. But I don't think she is evil."

Jonathan, I knew you'd have some more insight into Claire. Gaskell isn't painting anyone in black and white. I think, as you, that she shows some redeeming qualities in Claire from time to time and she does try to care for Molly. As you say, "I get the impression that Gaskell knew much more about life that the better known women writers of her time." I am absorbed by her writing and the details that she provides.

Bellamarie, I concur with you too that even as Molly loves Cynthia and wants to protect her, "Molly has more of Roger's feelings at stake in this whole mess, and feels she has to make every attempt to right Cynthia's wrong, to prevent Roger from knowing, and having a broken heart."

[marcie]

Molly understands Cynthia's distress...wants to help her however she can.  I feel she wants to protect Cynthia's honor for Roger's sake.  She "feels she has right on their side."  "Will try to walk the straight path."

I look at her as Joan of Arc...facing the enemy with complete confidence and belief in her cause. Preston has "no right to keep the letters, legal or moral...no right at all." She stands up to him with a "steady look of courageous innocence."

When Mr. Preston realizes that Molly has cleverly bested him, " he perceives that Molly is not aware she's a woman and he is a man."  ?  What did you make of this?

Joan, that's a good question.  Men of the time seemed to think that women were not up to logic and would usually be bested by a man. I guess I thought that Preston found Molly to be his equal in the exchange. She didn't resort to "womanly wiles" or succumb to either his charms or power. She stood her ground, even though he could see that she was somewhat afraid and she hit upon a successful plan for getting the letters from him.

What do you all think about the encounter between Preston and Molly?

[JoanP]

I really enjoyed Molly's encounter with Mr. Preston.  Molly is coming into her own, finding courage she didn't know she had to face "evil" - You can sense Mrs. Gaskell's excitement as she wrote.  Do you notice when she's caught up in the story she doesn't stop to catch her breath - nor does she stop for a period.
Remember diagramming sentences in school.  How would you approach this one? (It's all one sentence!)

"Loaded with many such messages, which she felt that she should never deliver, not really knowing what she should say, hating the errand, not satisfied with Cynthia's manner of speaking about her relations to Roger, oppressed with shame and complicity in conduct which appeared to her deceitful, yet willing to bear all and brave all, if she could once set Cynthia in a straight path—in a clear space, and almost more pitiful to her friend's great distress and possible disgrace, than able to give her that love which involves perfect sympathy, Molly set out on her walk towards the appointed place."

[PatH]

From the very start, I saw Preston as the sort of man who sees all exchanges with a woman in terms of sexual power.  (I don't mean physical sex, but male versus female dominance and power.)  Molly felt this unconsciously when she first met him, and it made her uncomfortable.  It's hanging in the background of all his exchanges with women.  It must really startle him to see Molly totally not dealing with him in those terms--none of the subtext of gender in their power struggle--simply a question of right conduct as far as Molly is concerned.

[JoanP]

Oh yes, not only doesn't she deal with him on his terms...but  has unwittingly got the best of him on any terms!  He's got to be impressed with this, though furious.  He's going to get even, don't you think?

[PatH]

He certainly will get even if he can, but he's going to have a hard time.  She's hit him where he's weakest.  Because of his good position with Lord Cumnor, including living in nice houses and having a bit of power, and because of his handsomeness and athletic ability, he is enjoying a social life above his origins.  If he loses Lord Cumnor's good opinion, he'll lose all of that too.

[bellamarie]

Lucy, 

I thought it was remarkable the way Molly stood up to her father at his harshest and after all that even coaxes him to kiss her.  She appears rather fragile and not very mature, sort of an awkward unworldly teenager, but when tested she is strong and can stand up to the hard criticism of the person she most loves and admires. I think most young girls would give up the secret under such pressure and throw Cynthia under the bus. Instead she endures the bad opinions of the towns people and waits for the truth to be revealed in its own time.

I'm not sure we have gotten to this chapter yet, but it's interesting to hear how Molly deals with her father.  Can't wait to read this.

I have not seen Downtown Abby, but so many of the women I know, are very much into it, and I am considering renting the first series to catch up to it.  I'm thinking I would like it. 

I don't think Gaskell is making Clare entirely "evil" that is not a word I would choose, but she certainly has made her out to be very manipulative, unfeeling, rude, and self centered.  As far as redeeming qualities, I think getting bandages for an injured boy is not enough to show me she is on the road to redemption.  But, I won't ever give up hope for her, or Cynthia.  After all,  St. Paul, was knocked off his horse, and converted.   

JoanP., Yes, Molly is coming into her own, especially with that encounter with Preston. BUT....was she foolish, and immature, in thinking she could handle this by herself?  My biggest fear is Preston is not finished with her just yet.  He will extract revenge on her, and I suspect it will be in him informing Roger of the entire mess, which is what Molly has so hoped to prevent.  Roger, knowing would not only disappoint him and break his heart where Cynthia is concerned, but he will see Molly in a new light, finding out she has not only kept these secrets from him, but acted on Cynthia's behalf to expunge the proposal, rather than exposing Cynthia.  My instincts are telling me in the long run, even though Molly was doing it all to protect Roger's feelings, it's going to come back around and damage their relationship.  I hope I am wrong.  It has already harmed her reputation with the town's people.  Unless, if and when Roger finds out, he can see the bravery, and love Molly has shown for him, in her actions in all of this.

PatH., Your point in Preston losing Lord Cumnor's good opinion is well founded, but something tells me, Preston may want his revenge on Molly and Cynthia so much so, he will sacrifice his own good standing.  Preston does not seem to be a person I would want to cross, especially because he has loved Cynthia for so long, passed up other possible women, while waiting for Cynthia to turn 20 yrs old, and was hanging on her "love letters" with every hope, she meant to keep her promise to marry him.  Cynthia has shamed him, and Molly has out maneuvered him.  Hell hath no fury, as Preston being scorned!!!  He was not the least bit concerned for how Lord Cumnor would think of him, when he showed his anger towards the squire.  He is a man of arrogance, and entitlement, with no room for woman or man out smarting him.

I still want to know how Clare will react once she finds all this out.  So far, Gaskell has kept Clare in the dark.  There has been NO mention she has the slightest knowledge of the engagement, or taken any part in all of Cynthia's mess with Preston.  But why has Clare and Lady Harriet shown so much dislike for Preston?

I can't wait to read the next chapters.

Ciao for now~

[bellamarie]

JoanP, When Mr. Preston realizes that Molly has cleverly bested him, " he perceives that Molly is not aware she's a woman and he is a man." ?  What did you make of this?

When I read that, I have no idea why, but at that moment I was concerned, that Preston would some how force Molly into marrying him.  I'm not so sure I even entertain that thought anymore, and why it even popped into my head.  I am a bit perplexed with this statement.  It has some meaning for certain.  Unless, Gaskell is toying with it.  

[marcie]

PatH, You say "I saw Preston as the sort of man who sees all exchanges with a woman in terms of sexual power." I think that's a helpful way of interpreting the sentence Joan brought to us and Bellamarie quoted above.

Bellamarie, I hope that Molly doesn't lose Roger's good opinion over this. Molly keeps telling Cynthia that she must tell Roger herself.

Joan, I am laughing at your suggestion that we diagram that sentence. I didn't notice it was one long sentence but remember when I first read it that I had a little trouble getting its meaning toward the end of it.

[Jonathan]

'When Mr. Preston realizes that Molly has cleverly bested him, " he perceives that Molly is not aware she's a woman and he is a man."  ?  What did you make of this?'

When I read that I found myself wondering if Molly will make a man out of him, more than the man described so well by PatH, in post 377. Thanks for that, and then a light went on for me. How very clever. It's all about power when Mr Preston and Cynthia meet. Preston's machismo and Cynthia's sex appeal. What a match up. The irony. With a little love Mr Preston could make a good husband. He's a pretty solid guy. So are they all, that are attracted to Cynthia. I'm still guessing at her 'one heroic act.'

Let's talk about amazing grace. I almost fell off my chair laughing, Bellamarie, when I read this from your post:

'But, I won't ever give up hope for her, or Cynthia.  After all,  St. Paul, was knocked off his horse, and converted.'

I read about Clare helping the poor, and had to think of Jesus telling his disciples, 'what you do for the least of these (unfortunates) you do for me. And I had to wonder if Clare might not have been another Mother Teresa. The seed was planted in her. But all her life she has had to cope. I'm surprised at how unselfish she really is.

 You also ask: 'But why has Clare and Lady Harriet shown so much dislike for Preston?'

I can't tell about Lady Harriet, but I feel that Clare is just taking a lead from her, as she does with everything when a Cumnor has spoken. There's so much we don't know about Clare. I think we can be certain that she knows that she has come between Molly and her father. Her expectations on getting married were so great. I have great sympathy for everyone. Except, perhaps, for Mrs Goodenough. For what. Scandal?

[Jonathan]

I just read your post, Marcie. I see you too found that an interesting suggestion from PatH. I could see many implications for the novel in that idea of a sexual undercurrent, and how the Victorian reader might have felt about it, or read into it.

[marcie]

Jonathan, you're very good at 180 degree interpretations of various characters. You keep me on my toes. Even if some are tongue in cheek, you provide insightful perspectives and often make me laugh.

[marcie]

After Molly's secret (or not-so-secret) encounter with Preston she seems very affected by having to keep everything from her father. What do you think about her actions and way of thinking?

Now that she has taken Molly into her confidence, do you think that Cynthia misjudges Molly's feelings toward her?

[Jonathan]

'Do you think that Cynthia misjudges Molly's feelings towards her?'

This is what I find most fascinating about the book. How these two girls, young women, relate to each other. And the author, obviously gave it much thought. And she has managed to make it quite complex. I find myself puzzling over it. The sentence JoanP posted is a good illustration:

 Poor Molly. "Loaded with many such messages, which she felt that she should never deliver, not really knowing what she should say, hating the errand, not satisfied with Cynthia's manner of speaking about her relations to Roger, oppressed with shame and complicity in conduct which appeared to her deceitful, yet willing to bear all and brave all, if she could once set Cynthia in a straight path—in a clear space, and almost more pitiful to her friend's great distress and possible disgrace, than able to give her that love which involves perfect sympathy, Molly set out on her walk towards the appointed place."

I'll admit to doing 180 degree turns. I like to think they reflect the learning experiences I'm getting out of this discussion. I think I've got it right, and then I see a post which gives me a better interpretation, which I'm eager to acknowledge.

I thought Gaskell was saying something fine about Clare, with the statement: 'Mrs Gibson was always kind to poor people.' When I saw that Bellamarie found it humorous, that Gaskell was being facetious, I couldn't help seeing it that way myself. But now, after thinking about it, I'm going to do another 180.

Gaskell was a woman with many missions. And one of them was helping the poor. She couldn't help but be very serious about that. So, I'm sure she meant to point out something  she admired in Clare. Does she have something in mind for her farther along in the plot, to make for a happy ending? As it turned out, this book has the strangest ending imaginable.

But it does end happily for both Molly and Cynthia. Now that shouldn't spoil it for anyone. It will end happily for me if I don't have to change my mind about that.

[JoanK]

I'm glad I'm not the only one that noticed that about Mr. Preston the first time he was introduced. We've all known men like that: if you're a woman, they condescend to you, put their hand on you, give you this "aren't you cute" smile. I've worked with them and if you make an important work-related point at a meeting, they turn and answer the nearest man, as if he had made it. If you tell them something when other no man is around, you have to repeat it several times before they "hear" it, and then, they're often hostile.

You can see, you've raised some bad memories of often being the only women in a man's field. But of course, I'm talking about a small minority of men: they just cause more than their share of problems for women. As far  as marrying one, I'm guessing if you did, you'd be reduced to a shell of a person in a few years. Cynthia has had more of an escape than she knows.

[bellamarie]

Jonathon, 

With a little love Mr Preston could make a good husband. He's a pretty solid guy.

Hmmm....I'm pondering this statement and want to agree with you, but for some reason my womanly instincts are preventing me from jumping on whole heartedly.  Just call it woman's instinct.  I am not at all happy with how Preston treated the squire.  He showed no respect, and I sensed some real anger there when Roger stepped in.  He would LOVE to kill 3 birds with one stone by revealing Cynthia's engagement to him, it would break Roger's heart and show Roger his dear Cynthia was first promised to Preston, it would break Molly's heart because of what it would do to Roger, and it would shame Cynthia.  So, I am going to hold up on the nice guy, good husband characterization for Mr. Preston.
JoanK., You are spot on in your post about Preston.  He had the goods on Cynthia, and he was going to hold her to the engagement, knowing full well she hated him.

Now as for this:  Jonathon,  

I read about Clare helping the poor, and had to think of Jesus telling his disciples, 'what you do for the least of these (unfortunates) you do for me. And I had to wonder if Clare might not have been another Mother Teresa. The seed was planted in her. But all her life she has had to cope. I'm surprised at how unselfish she really is.

I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read this. 

The Blessed Teresa of Calcutta, M.C.,[1] commonly known as Mother Teresa (26 August 1910 – 5 September 1997), was an Albanian-born, Indian Roman Catholic Religious Sister.
Mother Teresa founded the Missionaries of Charity, a Roman Catholic religious congregation, which in 2012 consisted of over 4,500 sisters and is active in 133 countries. They run hospices and homes for people with HIV/AIDS, leprosy and tuberculosis; soup kitchens; dispensaries and mobile clinics; children's and family counseling programmes; orphanages; and schools. Members of the order must adhere to the vows of chastity, poverty and obedience, and the fourth vow, to give "Wholehearted and Free service to the poorest of the poor".
Mother Teresa was the recipient of numerous honours including the 1979 Nobel Peace Prize. In late 2003, she was beatified, the third step toward possible sainthood, giving her the title "Blessed Teresa of Calcutta". A second miracle credited to her intercession is required before she can be recognised as a saint by the Catholic Church.[1]
Admired honoured and respected throughout the world, she has not lacked detractors, nor was she immune from personal abuse and insults whether in her life or after her death, all of which she bore calmly.[2][3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa

In my personal, opinion Mother Teresa, and Clare have absolutely nothing in common. I can't see a St. Clare or a St. Hyacinth in the ending of this story.   

Clare was not even able to give up her sitting room, to allow poor sick Helen to come for a visit to heal.  Now I see the tongue in cheek Marcie speaks of.     I still see Gaskell as being facetious, and still laugh at the humor, in insinuating Clare helped the poor.  Mea Culpa, Mea Culpa, Maxima Mea Culpa, if I turn out to be wrong, and something farther down the plot proves different.

JoanP., When I read the run on sentence, my OCD kicked in, and I had to almost tell myself to breathe....lolol

Jonathon, I agree, I like to see how others see the characters, and try to keep an open mind believe it or not, for possible things I have missed, or seeing them from a different perspective.  As complex as these characters seem, as we draw near the end, I am seeing they have pretty much stayed true to form, as far as their character.  What's that saying, " You can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig." 

Ciao for now~

[marcie]

Jonathan, I had meant that your views are often 180 degrees from what some others are saying; not that you, yourself change your mind. Though I think it's wonderful to read a story so complex that we can change our minds about the characters while reading and talking about it.

I'm finding that Cynthia believes that Molly doesn't love her to the same extent as she did before Cynthia shared her secrets. Molly seems too open, generous, full of empathy and humility to be accused of changing her feelings toward Cynthia. Cynthia seems to fear most a lowering of good opinion toward her. She seems to assume that of everyone.

[PatH]

Cynthia seems to fear most a lowering of good opinion toward her. She seems to assume that of everyone.

That's a key to Cynthia's behavior--her fear of disapproval.

Helping the poor: that was an expected duty of a gentlewoman at that time--to visit the poor in the area, and  provide a small bit of relief for their problems.  I'm not sure whether "she was always kind to poor people" is meant as a compliment or as sarcasm about Mrs. Gibson.  She tends to put on a good show of doing what's expected, but she is also good at getting out of things she doesn't want to do, so I don't know how she really feels.  Still, she did provide the bandages, so we have to give her that credit.

[bellamarie]

Marcie,

Cynthia seems to fear most a lowering of good opinion toward her.

PatH.,  

That's a key to Cynthia's behavior--her fear of disapproval.

This is true, so why then, does she continue to do things, that would cause others, to lower their opinion of her?

I went to Google looking for a bit of insight as to why people seek others approval and thought this was interesting.

http://www.testandcalc.com/Self_Defeating_Beliefs/bel1.asp

I highlighted a few things I myself thought about where Cynthia is concerned.

Finally, keep things in perspective. While you do not need approval, it is still desirable to have some people like and accept you. Could a few changes be to your advantage? If there are things about you to which people react negatively - slovenly appearance, habitual lateness, losing your temper, aggressiveness or other tendencies - and you dislike the disapproval, consider making some positive changes

Approval, though, becomes a problem when you exaggerate your desire for it into a necessity. In other words, you tell yourself that you must have it in order to feel good about yourself and be happy.

If you worry about how others see you, this shows that you do not accept yourself. You are, instead, rating yourself and relying on other people to confirm that you are OK. When you are not getting the love and respect you think you 'need', this plugs into self-doubts which already exist in your own mind.

My impression of Cynthia has been, she wants what she wants, does not care how it effects others, and when she sees it has a negative reaction from others, she overreacts to their disapproval.  Her reality is not that, of concern for others whatsoever. She lacks in self esteem, probably due to the fact her mother has not been there to help her develop into a young lady, with self esteem and self confidence.  As Dr. Phil says, "The most pivotal person in a child's life to build their self confidence, is the same sex parent."   Clare has failed her.

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

'Clare has failed her.' That has to be thought about, Bellamarie. And your post illustrates the psychological complexities of Cynthia's behavior.

I'm a bit surprised that you think that 'Mr Preston showed no respect' in that encounter with the squire. It was my impression that the old squire was expecting too much.

Marcie, I'm changing my mind all the time with this read. Here I am, almost at the end of the book for the second time, and the ending seems different somehow. I worry that anything I say might be a spoiler for someone else. Well, I'll say it anyways. This is all the dream of young Molly, after she fell asleep in Clare's bed at the Towers. The dream of a very precocious child. Or is it mine?

Bellamarie, have you read Mother Teresa's Come Be My Light? What a spiritual journey!

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,  NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!   PLEASE tell me you did not just give the ending away. I'll never forgive you if this is so.  You are truly as bad as Gaskell, playing with our minds. 

This is all the dream of young Molly, after she fell asleep in Clare's bed at the Towers. The dream of a very precocious child. Or is it mine?

Whether the squire was expecting too much or not, Preston showed unacceptable behavior, and quite a bit of anger, with the squire and Roger.  Let's just say, I would not want "MY" daughter to have a husband like him.

Okay, I shall begin a few of the next chapters for tomorrow's read, since Jonathon piqued my interest.  I will NOT finish the book before scheduled time, as much as I may want to.

Ciao for now~

p.s. 4 - 7 more inches of snow for our area throughout Tues.  We have at least 4 already, so I fear the forecasters are going to be a bit off on their predictions.  Another snow day for school I suspect, which means yet one more fully loaded daycare day for me.  Ughhhh.....think Spring!!

[marcie]

Jonathan, you don't disappoint! LOL re the dream.

Pat and Bellamarie, yes, "a key to Cynthia's behavior--her fear of disapproval." You ask a good question, Bellamarie, about why Cynthia can't change her ways since she doesn't want especially, certain people to disapprove of her. If she lacks self esteem, it could be why she makes poor choices.

I am finding more humor in Chapters 46 and 47. Do you find that Mrs. Gaskell inserted humorous characterizations of the various speakers amid the gossip?

[bellamarie]

Jonathon,

have you read Mother Teresa's Come Be My Light? What a spiritual journey!

No, I have not read this.  I have followed Mother Teresa for many years.  Was very saddened by her death.  She is my first and foremost inspiration, of how as a woman, I need to draw strength from her sacrifices, and do more for others.  I will download her book, since you recommend it!

marcie, I think what irritates me the most, is how Cynthia KNOWS and SEES better choices, yet even after contemplating it, she takes the easier way out, deception, and when that is revealed, she flees.  

Ciao for now~

[Jonathan]

Can you imagine Cynthia saying:'I am so glad to be free.' I found that revealing. Gaskell has certainly taken her through a lot of unhappiness.

Bellamarie, If you haven't read Come Be My Light, be prepared for the surprise of your life. And you'll find an end to your sadness. Death got Teresa out of the dark valley she was travelling.

[marcie]

Bellamarie, I'll try to go back and read some passages in the light of what you say "Cynthia KNOWS and SEES better choices, yet even after contemplating it, she takes the easier way out, deception, and when that is revealed, she flees."

Jonathan, you say "Gaskell has certainly taken her through a lot of unhappiness." I agree. Cynthia was weighed down for years by the choice she made at age 16. Preston seems to have said things then that implied her mother wanted her to come to him for money. She was "talked into it" by him, although another young person (such as Molly) likely would not have been.

[JoanP]

Do you find that Mrs. Gaskell inserted humorous characterizations of the various speakers amid the gossip?

Oh yes, Marcie!  Interspersed in the most serious moments, Cynthia's unhappy childhood, Molly's stress, her loyalty to Cynthia - and Roger, Osborne's illness, etc. - there is the steady stream of inane remarks! Easy to see why Molly finds these conversations with Mrs. G. So frustrating -particularly when she is upset about other more pressing situations.  

From Mrs. Gibson:

- "Molly is like me -never less alone than when alone, as one of the great authors expressed it." 
- Mrs. G invites Molly to the Book Society meeting, telling her she "thought reading a waste of time."
-  Always serves dessert, doesn't eat it, but it looks well...makes the servant understand they are a family of position.

Mrs. G. isn't the only one Mrs. Gaskell portrays as laughable, though.  (Were any of them men?) Come to think of it, it is only the Hollingford unmarried women, and widows, (including Mrs. Gibson) who come across as the objects of Mrs. Gaskell's ridicule.
No wonder Dr. Gibson dismisses Miss Browning's assertions as "ridiculous."

Do you agree with Miss Browning on this:
"Don't repeat evil on any authority unless you can do some good by speaking about it."