Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online

[JoanP]

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January-February Book Club Online

Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell

Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society. The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.

You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg

Discussion Schedule: Part 5   Feb.12-Feb.21     Feb. 12 - Feb.18}       Chapter 41. Gathering Clouds       Chapter 42. Storm Bursts       Chapter 43. Cynthia's Confession       Chapter 44. Molly Gibson To The Rescue       Chapter 45. Confidences       Chapter 46. Hollingford Gossips       Chapter 47. Scandal And Its Victims   Feb. 19-21}       Chapter 48. An Innocent Culprit       Chapter 49  Molly Gibson Finds A Champion       Chapter 50  Cynthia At Bay

Some Things to Think About

Feb. 19-21 Chapters XLVIII-L

Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER XLVIII. An Innocent Culprit
    1. How does one earn the title of "innocent culprit"?  Does this mean that although you are the culprit, you didn't mean it?  So that makes one innocent??  Mollie is very aware    of what she agreed to do for Cynthia. Has her immaturity hid the resulting damage to her reputation?

   2. How do you feel about the way Mollie is treated by her father?  He really is believing what Ms Browning over Mollie's explanations of the incidents that occurred.  He makes the mistake of calling her "child" which she objects to strongly.  She answers with unhappy words due to his thinking she is still a child. 
 
CHAPTER XLIX.  Molly Gibson Finds A Champion
    1.  Is this first paragraph a nicely written introduction to the Cumnor family so that one of them can take up Mollie's cause?  And to also give us a better picture of Lord   Cumnor?  I do like this man!  The old lady, the author calls him. I really like the way the author presents Lord Cumnor and the Squire Hamley.  I see them as very caring people.  Seems there is a true humbleness  in both of these families. 

   2.  How do you like the way Lady Cumnor listens to her husband's gossip without comment but then she delivers a "homily" to her family on how wrong it is to run down another person and how poor the conversations are when one does so?   

CHAPTER L        Cynthia At Bay
    1.  In Chapter 49, we were apprised of the condition of Lady Cumnor and her slow recovery.  In this chapter, the author brings up Mrs. Gibson and her recovery from influenza which has also been slow. She is coming along but still resting and in conversation with her daughters about Lady Harriet's invitation to the Towers.  She stills knows nothing about the gossip about Mollie nor does she know that her daughter instigated the whole scene.  Good grief, what do you think she will say about this debacle?

   2.  And here in Chapter 50, we find another lady recovering slowly.   Well, both of opening paragraphs, bring us a good family setting with different reactions to the gossip going around the little village of Hollingford.  Does social standing come in here?



 

DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln, 
PatH,  ADOANNIE

[marcie]

Those examples of humor are good one's Joan. Several times I laughed out loud while reading a sentence in the book.

[bellamarie]

Third time is a charm....I lost my last two attempts to post. Grrr....

1. How does one earn the title of "innocent culprit"?  Does this mean that although you are the culprit, you didn't mean it?  So that makes one innocent??  Mollie is very aware    of what she agreed to do for Cynthia. Has her immaturity hid the resulting damage to her reputation?

I am not so sure I saw Molly as an "innocent culprit," in this entire situation.  Yes, Cynthia did trick her and Preston about the meeting, but Molly had decided to get involved herself.  I just feel it was wrong of Cynthia to allow Molly to be involved, she should have done it herself, or involved an adult, which of course she did not want to do, to protect her own self image, not caring what it would do to Molly's.  

I was a bit annoyed with how Molly adamantly refused to give her father all the details.  He has just come from being told his daughter is the talk of the townspeople, and that her reputation is in grave danger, and even though he has all the faith in the world of Molly's innocence, he deserves to be told everything, but instead Molly puts Cynthia and Roger's feeling above her father's and her own.  

Mr. Gibson referring to Molly as a "child" even though she did not like it was because he could see her actions were immature, foolish and childlike.  He clearly saw Cynthia took advantage of Molly's innocence, and loyalty to her and Roger.  Molly should have let Cynthia deal with this herself or get an adult involved.  He could see how Cynthia allowed Molly to put herself in danger, by meeting with Preston alone.  I felt sorry for Mr. Gibson learning that Molly made such a bad judgement in this entire situation, and that Cynthia allowed it to happen.

Mr. Gibson's only comfort was in knowing Clare had no involvement in this mess, because he would have blamed himself if she had, considering deciding to marry her, was to protect Molly from such a thing.

Why does Gaskell use the word heroine for Molly, and Cynthia is this situation?

Mr. Gibson, "Well, all I can say is, never be the heroine of a mystery that you can avoid, if you can't help being an accessory. Then, I suppose, I must yield to your wishes and let this scandal wear itself out without any notice from me?" pg 481

Lady Harriet, "I think it is much more likely that Clare's own daughter—that pretty pawky Miss Kirkpatrick—is the real heroine of this story," said Lady Harriet. "She always looks like a heroine of genteel comedy; and those young ladies were capable of a good deal of innocent intriguing, if I remember rightly. " pg. 487

I am assuming Gaskell does not intend it to be as the true meaning, someone who commits an heroic act, but rather it is being referred to the main person in the situation. I did not see Molly getting involved the least bit heroic.  She put herself in harm's way, and did not realize how it would effect her reputation or her father or Clare's, for that matter.  I saw this very foolish.

Ciao for now~

[ANNIE]

BELLAMARIE What came to my mind about the word "heroine"  used by Lady Harriet was that she really meant was that Cynthia was "the star" of her own comedy.

[bellamarie]

Annie, I agree. Gakell is not at all using the word "heroine," as I would interpret as heroic. Lady Harriet is not at all happy with what she has learned, and shows how much she really dislikes Cynthia.

[JoanP]

There have been several references since the start - before she left home for those two years in France- the ladies at the Tower didn't think much of Cynthia.  She was just a young teen back then.  What was that about?  Lady Harriet's feelings for Mr. Preston, I'll guess. I keep expecting to hear more about that affair, but we're running out of pages. Don't you think there's a story there?  Why was she packed up and sent off to school in France?

Poor Molly - she sees Cynthia for what she is, but has given her word to help her break off from Mr. Preston.  Innocently, she does what she promised, but the townladies misinterpret what they've seen and so she becomes the culprit - the talk of the town.
Bella, Molly is a person of her word.  I thought her father came to understand that after their talk...even admired her for it.

[JoanP]

“he grasped her more and more tightly in his vice-like hands, till she made a little involuntary sound of pain.”

" his vice-like hands" - did you howl at this?  Yet another example of the need for a good editor, a proof- reader!  I'd give anything to learn the reaction of Mrs. Gaskell's readers at the time.

Oops...I stand corrected.  Please accept my apology, Mrs. Gaskell...in the US,  we call it a vise, therefore vise-like. But in England  "vice-like" - perfectly acceptable. Collins English Dictionary

That was such a painful scene between father and his little girl, wasn't it? He had never hurt her before, so we know how upset he was.   But Molly came into her own as an adult when she stood up to him.  Painful! Growing up is painful...especially when it happens all at once.

[bellamarie]

JoanP., Yes, Molly is a person of her word, but I just felt at that particular time, she owed it to her father to give him the entire story.  He deserved it.  He knows she has this misguided, undeserving loyalty to Cynthia, that is what has gotten her in this entire mess.  So he may have admired her for keeping her word, but I don't think he is happy with how she has allowed her loyalty, to cause her so much disgrace.

I think at least once in every parents lifetime they experience the frustration Mr. Gibson was feeling, causing him to grip Molly's wrists to the point of her feeling pain.  I was not the least bit concerned for her, or for him going beyond gripping her. 

"But Molly came into her own as an adult when she stood up to him.  Painful! Growing up is painful...especially when it happens all at once."

Hmmm...I'm not sure I saw it that way, but maybe so.  I just haven't yet gotten to the point of seeing Molly as an adult.

Ciao for now~

 

[Lucylibr]

JoanP:That's an excellent observation you made about unmarried women (and widows) being the butt of Mrs. Gaskell's jokes, the ridiculous characters that we laugh at and do not take seriously, while the men are not portrayed this way.  The men are flawed and blind to what is going on (The Squire, Mr. Gibson, Roger), but we take them seriously. There has long been prejudice against women who don't marry, as though they are losers and of less value than married women.  In my family and others close to me said there is nothing worse than not getting married and being an "old maid," a spinster.  Today I think we are overcoming this prejudice, and not being married ever seems perfectly acceptable, I am happy to say. Condoleeza Rice comes to mind as someone highly successful and loved and respected who never married.

[bellamarie]

I think back in the 1800's & 1900's women's only goal, was to marry and have babies, to carry on the bloodlines.  So if you did not marry you were looked on as you mentioned a spinster or old maid.  Today, things are so different.  Women are successful in their own rights, whether they are married, single, career minded, or have no children.  I just was watching The Talk and the ladies were talking about an interview Jennifer Anniston did with Gloria Steinem, and how Jennifer felt society puts pressure on her to be married and have children.  The ladies did not agree with her, and said they felt it is Jennifer putting those expectations on herself.  In today's world, anything is acceptable, I mean you mentioned Condie Rice who is successful and single, but even though Hillary Clinton is married with one child, she is possibly the next presidential candidate...foo on anyone who thinks women need to be married or have children, to account for something. 

As for making fun of the women in the book, I do have to point out I think Gaskell has not been one sided, or sex directed with her jokes or criticisms.  She made Coxe and Roger out to be red headed oofs, even though both seem to be successful, with poor Coxe leaving with his tail between his legs, as fast as he came.     I think Gaskell left egg on Preston's face, after Molly was finished with him, or as he pointed out to Lady Harriet, " She had come off conqueror, he the vanquished."    She made me laugh out loud describing Lord Cumnor, as a gossip as much as the women.

" In short, if ever a peer was an old woman, Lord Cumnor was that peer; but he was a very good-natured old woman, and rode about on his stout old cob with his pockets full of halfpence for the children, and little packets of snuff for the old people. Like an old woman, too he enjoyed an afternoon cup of tea in his wife's sitting-room, and over his gossip's beverage he would repeat all that he had learnt in the day."   

I've always felt men like to, and do, as much gossiping as women, they just don't like to admit to it, or it be pointed out as gossip. 

I think Gaskell has had fun with all of her characters, at one time or the other.  Or maybe I just have a sic sense of humor. 

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Lucy, until you mentioned him, I hadn't thought of the Squire as one of the flawed men who doesn't quite know what's going on...but the more we read about him, I can see that.
Shall we place Mr. Coxe in the same category?  He certainly had no idea where he stood with Cynthia when he tossed aside his ardor for Molly, as soon as he saw Cynthia's pretty face.

Bella - you mention Mr. Coxe's red hair.  Is Mrs. Gaskell making fun of him?  Or is she simply repeating the 19th century attitude towards redheads? I'm going to try to find something about that.  I remember in her novel, Cranford, she referred to the "carroty " color of a young man's hair.

[JoanP]

I liked Lord Cumnor too, Annie - and the interest he takes in those who live on the estate.
Very good-natured, visiting over tea, listening to the local gossip.   I'm finding the Lords and Ladies more level-headed and likeable  than the gossips in the village.  Does this reflect Mrs. Gaskell's attitude as well? Notice that neither Lady Harriet nor Lady Cumnor believed Sheepshanks' story about Molly and Mr.P -  as the ladies in the village were quick to believe.

We knew from the start that Lady Harriet liked Molly - but it took a lot of nerve for Lady Harriet to ask Mr. Preston directly, for the truth about his engagement to Molly.  Wasn't she interested in him romantically at one time?

Did you notice Mr. Preston's reply to her question about being engaged to Miss Gibson? -"I should be so fortunate," he said.  He really was impressed with Molly...as a woman!

[Lucylibr]

Yes, I think Coxe can be included for sure, but the implication is that he will marry and settle down as Preston may or may not?  I fear with the latter there may have been unacceptable actions that have not been revealed.  The reason Lady Harriett doesn't like him is that he has assumed intimacy with her as an equal, which I guess we know is not to be alowed.

I also think we may find out more about Cynthia's unacceptable behavior that has not yet been revealed.  Molly has solved the problem with the letters, but Cynthia is not at ease with her.  There is tension in the household. I feel we are waiting for the other shoe to drop.

The question of illness is very very puzzling.  I don't think the Victorians had worse diseases than we have, but there were few remedies that were effective so people lingered in a state of ill health longer.  On the other hand, they died suddenly and younger.  But beyond that there was a prevailing attitude toward illness that made people feel that health was precarious and people had to be coddled regarding any illness.  It was part of a social sensibility, doing what was socially acceptable. Of course there were all kinds of myths about illness, that night air caused illness, that certain foods and herbs prevented or cured it, that people should not exert themselves. 

I wonder what that operation was the Lady Cumnor underwent.  It couldn't have been too extensive or it would have killed her.  But it entitles her to a lot of attention and pampering and allows her to pontificate to others about how people should behave, not necessarily how the listeners should behave, which Clare fails to understand.

[bellamarie]

Here are a few quotes that show Gaskell used her humor with Coxe, not only for his looks and red hair, but also for his actions. 

Mr. Coxe was a boy of nineteen or so, with brilliant red hair, and a tolerably red face, of both of which he was very conscious and much ashamed.

Major Coxe was not quite sure whether Mr. Gibson was not laughing at him in his sleeve;

"You are ridiculing my feelings, Mr. Gibson. Do you forget that you yourself were young once?"

Cynthia speaking of Mr. Cox:  "Please, Mr. Gibson, hear my side of the story before you speak so hardly to me. I did not mean to—to flirt. I merely meant to make myself agreeable,—I can't help doing that,—and that goose of a Mr. Coxe seems to have fancied I meant to give him encouragement.

And to think of that stupid little fellow making all this mischief! He pretended to take it to heart, as if he had loved me for years instead of only for days. I daresay only for hours if the truth were told."

I shall hate red-haired people for the rest of my life. To think of such a man as that being the cause of your father's displeasure with me!"

Oh! I wish Roger was at home, and rich, and could marry me at once, and carry me away from that man! If I'd thought of it, I really believe I would have taken poor red-haired Mr. Coxe."


I do believe Clare has some humorous comments about Coxe, but I tired looking for them.  I did find these funny.

Ciao for now~

[bellamarie]

I absolutely loved how Lady Harriet said,   "if it's my little friend Molly, I'll go to church and forbid the banns."  She has truly taken Molly under her wing, and will move heaven and earth to clear Molly's good name.  She could care less is Cynthia would end up with Preston, but not her Molly! 

[bellamarie]

2.  How do you like the way Lady Cumnor listens to her husband's gossip without comment but then she delivers a "homily" to her family on how wrong it is to run down another person and how poor the conversations are when one does so?   

I absolutely laughed out loud when I read this.  She wants to hear all the town gossip for sure, but then she acts all high and mighty and gives the "homily,"  more of a lecture on how not to gossip.    

[ANNIE]

But, remember, Lady Cumnor ends up on Mollie's side along with her daughter, Harriett!  That's the positive side of this story, isn't it?

[PatH]

Yes, Lady Harriet is now Molly's champion, and it's interesting to see how she "rescues" Molly.  She walks into town with Molly and makes sure they are seen everywhere by everybody, afterwards remarking to herself "Hollingford is not the place I take it to be, if it doesn't veer round in Miss Gibson's favour after my to-day's trotting of that child about."

Lady Harriet's approval seems to be enough to make the town discount all the gossip.!

[bellamarie]

Yes, Annie, I was happy to see those who refused to believe the gossip.  Afterall, Molly has had a stellar reputation in the town.  We can't forget Miss Phoebe's kindness to Molly while others were snubbing her and whispering:

"Only Miss Phœbe would seek out Molly with even more than her former tenderness; and this tried Molly's calmness more than all the slights put together.The soft hand, pressing hers under the table,—the continual appeals to her, so as to bring her back into the conversation, touched Molly almost to shedding tears."

I especially snickered a bit after reading this conversation between Miss Browning, Lady Harriet and Phoebe:

"What is all this I hear about my little friend Molly Gibson and Mr. Preston?"
"Oh, Lady Harriet! have you heard of it? We are so sorry!"
"Sorry for what?"
"I think, begging your ladyship's pardon, we had better not say any more till we know how much you know," said Miss Browning.
"Nay," replied Lady Harriet, laughing a little, "I shan't tell what I know till I am sure you know more. Then we'll make an exchange if you like."
"I'm afraid it's no laughing matter for poor Molly," said Miss Browning, shaking her head. "People do say such things!"
"But I don't believe them; indeed I don't," burst in Miss Phœbe, half crying.

No more will I, then," said Lady Harriet, taking the good lady's hand.
"It's all very fine, Phœbe, saying you don't believe them, but I should like to know who it was that convinced me, sadly against my will, I am sure."

"I only told you the facts as Mrs. Goodenough told them me, sister; but I'm sure if you had seen poor patient Molly as I have done, sitting up in a corner of a room, looking at the Beauties of England and Wales till she must have been sick of them, and no one speaking to her; and she as gentle and sweet as ever at the end of the evening, though maybe a bit pale—facts or no facts, I won't believe anything against her."
So there sate Miss Phœbe, in tearful defiance of facts.
"And, as I said before, I'm quite of your opinion," said Lady Harriet.

 Only remember, Miss Phœbe, it's you and I against the world, in defence of a distressed damsel."
"Don Quixote and Sancho Panza!" said she to herself as she ran lightly down Miss Browning's old-fashioned staircase.   

"Now, I don't think that's pretty of you, Phœbe," said Miss Browning in some displeasure, as soon as she was alone with her sister. "First, you convince me against my will, and make me very unhappy; and I have to do unpleasant things, all because you've made me believe that certain statements are true; and then you turn round and cry, and say you don't believe a word of it all, making me out a regular ogre and backbiter. No! it's of no use. I shan't listen to you." So she left Miss Phœbe in tears, and locked herself up in her own room.

Miss Browning did not much like coming off looking like the betrayer, judge, jury, and the gossiper, while Miss Phoebe looks the sympathetic, innocent one.   

Ciao for now~

[JoanP]

Not only did Lady Harriet go right to Mr. Preston and get the truth out of him_ but marches the girl  through the town to clear her name.  I'm wondering what Dr. Gibson would have done if he knew the truth.  Molly insisted to him that if he found out the truth, Cynthia would make good on her threat to run off to Russia as a governess.   She should have gone to Lady Harriet in the first place...as she threated to do if Mr. Preston refused to return the letters.  Once he returned them, Molly felt she couldn't reveal the truth - felt she owed him that.  We should all have friends like Molly!

I confess that I find her almost too good to be true.  Is this what Eliz. Gaskell is saying to us?  That we are all sometimes more like Cynthia - not really bad, but not nearly as good as Molly?  I wish sometimes she'd do something to show she's human, not quite so perfect.  I've been waiting for her to do something to reveal that she too is human - like lie to Roger to make him forget Cynthia.  I see he will return in the next chapters.  Maybe, just maybe, Molly will reveal her feelings for him.

[JoanP]

Annie -

"Lady Cumnor ends up on Mollie's side along with her daughter, Harriett!"

 Wouldn't our Clare be consumed with jealousy to see the ladies of the Towers standing with Molly - in a matter she has known nothing about?  We're told that Clare too has been ill for quite some time.  I believe the word "influenza" was used to describe her long and lingering illness, which kept her indoors and out of the loop.

Lucy, I find these illnesses puzzling too.  It seems that Dr. Gibson and others do not act act as if these illnesses are contagious.  Is it because they don't know what contagion is?  Clearly a cure is not yet known...except to linger, rest and let it run its course - or not.  We've seen enough death to be concerned about anyone who comes into contact with someone who is ill.  
What do you think they are suffereing from?  We know there is a cholera epidemic at this time.  Mrs. Gaskell refers to influenza.  It doesn't seem to be small pox, no one is talking about consumption.

 

[bellamarie]

JoanP., I was thinking the exact thoughts you expressed.  Is Molly too good to be true? 

I thought about this, after reading how she reacts, after she realizes how what she did has caused shame to her reputation, and how it was so upsetting to her father.  When does an individual say, enough is enough, and not be a pillar of strength, kind, good, and loyal?  I don't think I could have been as nonchalant as Molly was about the gossip.  I seriously questioned, whether I could have gone into a room with women, knowing they were whispering and snubbing me openly.  Has Gaskell, made her unbelievable to the reader?  I know many very kind, loving, Christian women, and I tried to imagine them as Molly, and to be honest, I could see them cracking under all the stress Molly has been given... from holding everyone's secrets, helping sick people, living with Clare, cleaning up after Cynthia, watching Roger go off to a far off land worrying about his health, dealing with the deaths of loved ones, take care of the squire, being forced to put away all her mother's comfort items, and losing the closeness of her father.  Seriously, for Gaskell to give us the impression Molly is young and immature, she sure has loaded her up with the weight of more burdens, than a lumberjack, yet she is seen as if nothing makes her falter.

Interesting, how you mention Roger returning, and if Molly would do anything underhanded to win his love.  I would be shocked if Gaskell did that.  But then again, can Molly stand by and allow Roger and Cynthia marry?  I don't see Cynthia ever marrying Roger, so I don't think Molly would have to do anything underhanded to win his love.  I sense once he sees what all Molly has sacrificed for everyone he loves, he just may choose her.  An obvious ending for me, since the first time Molly and Roger met, as far as I am concerned.  But what do I know.....Gaskell  loves surprising us!

Ciao for now~

 

[PatH]

So many good points being brought up here.  Illness: Lucylibr and JoanP, you raise interesting questions.  No, they didn't have any real notion of contagion at the time, though they thought some illnesses, like scarlet fever, were contagious.  Treatment was pretty arbitrary; in The Moonstone, written 3 years later than Wives and Daughters, and taking place about 1848, there is a dramatic crisis when the discredited doctor saves the life of his patron by rejecting the "lowering" treatments of the other doctors (ammonia and other stuff) and substituting "raising" treatments--brandy and the like.  Neither would help any real sickness.

Women seem to have been regarded as particularly frail (that's assuming they weren't working class and had to keep going).  Of course if you keep someone lying in bed to recuperate, they are going to lose strength, and take longer to get well.  I must admit that if my days consisted of trimming bonnets and tending to my netting (what did they do with all those craft items they kept making?) and listening to my stepmother's vapid conversation, I might take to my bed with the megrims too.

I was a little surprised to see such a specific description of Osborne's illness--aortic aneurism.

[Jonathan]

'I was a little surprised to see such a specific description of Osborne's illness--aortic aneurism.'

Interesting observation, PatH. I think that's another example of men being treated differently than women in the book. I'm thinking of Lucy's remark that men in the book are not treated as ridiculous charaters the way some women are. Just look at the suitors that are attracted by Cynthia. A clever land agent. A doctor in training. A man in science. A lawyer. Granted, they are all made to look a bit foolish.

A woman's illness often comes with some hints of fancied or imaginary symptoms or causes. I'm inclined to see plot complications and the author's vexing uncertainties about the fates of her characters. In fact she is painting herself into a corner. Or perhaps some of her people are pushing her into it. With one too good to be true, and another saying: 'If I'd thought of it, I really believe I would have taken poor red- haired Mr Coxe. I love the way you find the humor in the book, Bellamarie.

I keep wondering if Mr Coxe will turn out to be one of the red-headed Irish Hamleys who will inherit if the squire's direct heirs all die. But we'll never know. I'm not even sure if I can really distinguish between vise and vice. lol. Both are combined in her father's grip.

[Jonathan]

Have you noticed how many characters are seen and described as 'poor', sooner or later? The poor squire. Poor Molly. Poor Roger. Poor Clare. And especially poor Cynthia. In most cases it would seem to be the author's feelings finding expression. Except for the Cumnors, young and old.

[Lucylibr]

Despite a somewhat sedentary life, Molly seems to walk a lot, even on the squire's estate when she is visiting there.  And she likes riding horses.  Since there were no cars and her father did not own a "fly," which Clare wants him to acquire, walking or riding horseback was the only way to go.  There was the sedan chair in Cranford and it appears in this novel at least once when the ladies go to a party.

I think they must have suffered lots of upper rspiratory infections that could turn to pneumonia and other complications. The climate was damp and cool and houses were not well heated. You were either cold or roasted by the fire, which I can remember as a child visiting relatives in rural Maine.

[PatH]

Somewhere Molly and Cynthia are contrasted--Molly not happy if she doesn't get her daily walk, and Cynthia not caring about it.

[PatH]

Well, we start a new section today, and it's a doozy.  Chapters 51, "Troubles Never Come Alone" through 57, Bridal Visits and Adieux.  I'll leave the old questions up a bit in case you want them, but here are some for the first part of this chunk.


51.  Troubles Never Come Alone

Do you believe that “Troubles never come alone?”
At the very end of her conversation with Mr. Gibson, Cynthia has a moment of regret about giving up Roger.  “Yet often in after years, when it was too late, she wondered, and strove to penetrate the inscrutable mystery of ‘what would have been.’”  What do you think that tells you about Cynthia’s fate and future life?
Did you expect Osborne to die?


52.  Squire Hamley’s Sorrow

Why does Mrs. Gaskell make Osborne’s wife a Frenchwoman?
Is Squire Hamley’s grief realistically described?

[bellamarie]

Before going on to the next chapters, I wanted to discuss a bit about Cynthia's return.  "Cynthia At Bay"  She comes home and shuns Molly straight off.  Yes, one more secret Cynthia has, that Mr. Henderson has proposed to her and she refused him, because she is engaged to Roger.  REALLY??  I thought all along Cynthia has said it is NOT an engagement, and she was free to choose another if she wished to?? Clare seems so disappointed that Cynthia refused Henderson.  He is the perfect catch, in Clare's eyes.  

Then Cynthia is finally confronted by Mr. Gibson:

Yes! I know that Molly knows it all, and that she has had to bear slander and ill words for your sake, Cynthia. But she refused to tell me more."
"She told you that much, did she?" said Cynthia, aggrieved
I could not help it," said Molly.
"She didn't name your name," said Mr. Gibson. "At the time I believe she thought she had concealed it—but there was no mistaking who it was."
"Why did she speak about it at all?" said Cynthia, with some bitterness. Her tone—her question stirred up Mr. Gibson's passion.
"It was necessary for her to justify herself to me—I heard my daughter's reputation attacked for the private meetings she had given to Mr. Preston—I came to her for an explanation. There's no need to be ungenerous, Cynthia, because you've been a flirt and a jilt, even to the degree of dragging Molly's name down into the same mire."
Cynthia lifted her bowed-down head, and looked at him.
"You say that of me, Mr. Gibson? Not knowing what the circumstances are, you say that?"
He had spoken too strongly: he knew it. But he could not bring himself to own it just at that moment. The thought of his sweet innocent Molly, who had borne so much patiently, prevented any retractation of his words at the time.
"Yes!" he said, "I do say it. You cannot tell what evil constructions are put upon actions ever so slightly beyond the bounds of maidenly propriety. I do say that Molly has had a great deal to bear, in consequence of this clandestine engagement of yours, Cynthia—there may be extenuating circumstances, I acknowledge—but you will need to remember them all to excuse your conduct to Roger Hamley, when he comes home. I asked you to tell me the full truth, in order that until he comes, and has a legal right to protect you, I may do so." No answer. "It certainly requires explanation," continued he. "Here are you,—engaged to two men at once to all appearances!" Still no answer. "To be sure, the gossips of the town haven't yet picked out the fact of Roger Hamley's being your accepted lover; but scandal has been resting on Molly, and ought to have rested on you, Cynthia—for a concealed engagement to Mr. Preston—necessitating meetings in all sorts of places unknown to your friends."

"No! you have prejudged me; you have spoken to me as you had no right to speak. I refuse to give you my confidence, or accept your help. People are very cruel to me"—her voice trembled for a moment—"I did not think you would have been. But I can bear it."
  

This conversation really upset me, Cynthia seems furious of the fact Molly has said anything of her secret, yet she seems such the victim of her own circumstance.  It was time someone called her out on this, and let her know the shame she has brought upon Molly.  Although....Molly could have stayed out of it.  Cynthia is playing the victim and the martyr here.  Ughhh....and yet Molly of course wants to protect Cynthia.  What people have been cruel to Cynthia?  The whole town is gossiping about Molly!  

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

Cynthia is at her worst here, isn't she?  To be fair, she probably didn't know about the gossip about Molly until Gibson told her, but she doesn't seem concerned about it, though it's exactly the treatment she won't put up with when directed at her.

By the way, a secret engagement was considered scandalous then, even if the two parties were behaving properly and were serious in meaning to marry.  If you've read Emma, you've seen another example.  Jilting someone once you had promised to marry them was also much more serious then--really dishonorable behavior.

We don't have to move on until people want to.

[marcie]

Pat and Bellamarie, I agree that Cyntha seems at her worst here. I first thought that she sounded so ungrateful after what Molly did for her. But in re-reading, perhaps she and Mr. Gibson got off on the wrong foot when he says:  "Yes! I know that Molly knows it all, and that she has had to bear slander and ill words for your sake, Cynthia. But she refused to tell me more."   That made it sound that Molly broke her word to Cynthia and told her father everything.

Then, when Mr. Gibson tells her that Molly thought that she had successfully concealed her identity in the little she told  him, Cynthia asks him why Molly brought it up at all. If Cynthia didn't know about the rumors regarding Molly and the fact that Mr. Gibson forced Molly to tell him whether they were true or not, it could be seen as a fair question though not asked graciously.

Could Mr. Gibson have handled it better? Should he have waited to speak to Cynthia when he had his anger under more control regarding Molly's predicament? Mr. Gibson has never spoken to Cynthia like this before.

She feels like this is the end for her. It's almost the reverse of a quote from Jane Austen's PRIDE AND PREJUDICE, "My good opinion, once lost, is lost forever."  In Cynthia's case, she feels that once a good opinion of HER is lost, it's lost forever. Her actions and feelings are immature. As you say, PatH, she doesn't seem to even see the situation she's created for Molly. Her concern is for herself.

[PatH]

In the next chapter, in her private interview with Mr. Gibson, Cynthia does show some awareness of the difficult position she has put Molly in.  "Those unkind gossips!  To visit Molly with their hard words!  Oh, dear!  I think life is very dreary."

She says something else striking: "Oh, sir, I think if I had been differently brought up I should not have had the sore angry heart I have."

[JoanP]

I was touched when Cynthia told Mr. G she loved him better than she had loved Roger.  To me, that revealed how deeply affected she had been by the loss of her own father.  Will Cynthia ever find anyone who will love her on her own terms?  Unconditionally? Someone who will overlook her bad behavior and still maintain a good opinion of her?  I don't see that - which is why I feel such sympathy for her in the future.  Can't see her learning any lessons from all this.

I have to keep reminding myself of the period in which Mrs. Gaskell wrote this book.  Pat reminds us how secret engagements were scandalous at the time...and here we see Mrs. Gibson reminding Cynthia that it is scandalous to break an engagement without mutual consent. (Cynthia doesn't even want to see Roger). No wonder she feels the need to run away.  Trouble will follow her no matter where she goes.

[JoanP]

So Dr. Gibson was able to spot Osborne's condition!   I remember when he questioned the elder Dr. Nicholl's prognosis ...I remember thinking Gibson was probably right...but how did he spot an aneurism at this time?  Mrs. Gaskell must have been aware of such a possibility - from her own doctors perhaps.  While reading these last  pages she wrote, I'm wondering if she feels her strength leaving her - as Osborne did when he paid that last visit to The Gibsons...looking for the doctor.

[PatH]

I don't know how he spotted the aneurysm either, but this isn't the only example of him being right when the experts were wrong.  It also happened with whatever was wrong with Lady Cumnor (which led to her surgery in London).

The introduction to my book says that Mrs. Gaskell's health had broken down from the exhaustion she suffered during her efforts to relieve starving millworkers (who had been thrown out of work by the disruption in the cotton trade caused by our Civil War) and this may have contributed to her very sudden death.  So she might very well have felt presentiments.

[bellamarie]

Well.....all I can say is that these chapters were predictable, but lots of fun to read.  Gaskell is hard at work trying to make the readers see good in Cynthia and Clare, now that we are getting to the end of the book.  And yes, it appears Gaskell has decided to make it a happily ever after for Cynthia.  

Now all we need is for Molly & Roger to find their way to each other and all is well that ends well.  

It was so obvious to me, that Cynthia would marry Henderson.  And it was nice to see this:

"Now I won't have you classing Roger Hamley and Mr. Preston together in the same sentence. One was as much too bad for me as the other is too good. Now I hope that man in the garden is the juste milieu,—I'm that myself, for I don't think I'm vicious, and I know I'm not virtuous."

"Do you really like him enough to marry him?" asked Molly earnestly. "Do think, Cynthia. It won't do to go on throwing your lovers off; you give pain that I'm sure you do not mean to do,—that you cannot understand."

"Perhaps I can't. I'm not offended. I never set up for what I am not, and I know I'm not constant. I've told Mr. Henderson so—" She stopped, blushing and smiling at the recollection.
"You have! and what did he say?"

"That he liked me just as I was; so you see he's fairly warned. Only he's a little afraid, I suppose,—for he wants me to be married very soon, almost directly, in fact. But I don't know if I shall give way,—you hardly saw him, Molly,—but he's coming again to-night, and mind, I'll never forgive you if you don't think him very charming. I believe I cared for him when he offered all those months ago, but I tried to think I didn't only sometimes I really was so unhappy, I thought I must put an iron band round my heart to keep it from breaking, like the Faithful John of the German story,—do you remember, Molly?—how when his master came to his crown and his fortune and his lady-love, after innumerable trials and disgraces, and was driving away from the church where he'd been married in a coach and six, with Faithful John behind, the happy couple heard three great cracks in succession, and on inquiring, they were the iron-bands round his heart, that Faithful John had worn all during the time of his master's tribulation, to keep it from breaking."

I believe Cynthia realizes, that Henderson is as close to the perfect love she will ever find.  I love that she says, he is fairly warned.  It shows Henderson loves her unconditionally, which has to make Cynthia happy, because it's so important she has the love and admiration of people, and in spite of her flaws, Henderson still loves her and wants to marry her.

Sorry, if I jumped a bit ahead, I just was so happy to see Gaskell gave us this truth, about Cynthia and Henderson.

Cynthia even defends Henderson to Lady. Cumnor, when she tries to insult him for being an attorney, which shows how much she does care for him.

I found so much humor in these chapters, I couldn't stop laughing.  This was so funny!!!


Mr. Gibson, generous as usual, called Cynthia aside a morning or two after her engagement, and put a hundred-pound note into her hands

There! that's to pay your expenses to Russia and back. I hope you'll find your pupils obedient."
To his surprise, and rather to his discomfiture, Cynthia threw her arms round his neck and kissed him.
"You are the kindest person I know," said she; "and I don't know how to thank you in words."
"If you tumble my shirt-collars again in that way, I'll charge you for the washing. Just now, too, when I'm trying so hard to be trim and elegant, like your Mr. Henderson."
"But you do like him, don't you?" said Cynthia, pleadingly. "He does so like you."
"Of course. We're all angels just now, and you're an arch-angel. I hope he'll wear as well as Roger.

This was so fun seeing these interaction of Mr. Gibson and Cynthia.

Okay, I will stop here and try to backtrack to chapters 51 - 57.  

Ciao for now~  

[PatH]

You're still in this chunk, Bellamarie, that's in chapter 56.  Mr. Gibson can't resist a wicked dig--"I hope he'll wear as well as Roger" indeed!

[JoanP]

Not so sure which caught the Squire's attention more regarding his DIL.  The fact that she was French, Catholic...or that she had been a servant!  If she had been an English servant...would he be as disturbed? 

[bellamarie]

Isn't it interesting how Gaskell had Aimee come to Hamley Hall for Osborne's death, and yet she sort of dropped the story line on her.  Roger comes back and mentions Aimee is still with them, and he is not sure if she will go back to her homeland, but he hopes she will stay.  Is there any laws of etiquette where it requires the son to marry his brother's wife should he die?  I don't suppose there is any obligation for Roger to take Aimee as his responsibility, other than financially, and provide their home to her.

I like how the squire mentions Aimee does not seem neither French, or a servant.  He sees how much she loved Osborne, and I think it has stirred his emotions, to care for her.  I'm suspecting Gaskell will keep her living at Hamley Hall, with the little boy heir, since he will in fact become the owner of Hamley Hall one day.  I knew she and Molly would like each other instantly, since they had the common denominator, Osborne, to speak well and loving, of each of them to each other.

Osborne's death was so sad, reading how the Squire expressed how he wasted his time being angry, and how he would have forgiven him, and accepted his wife and child had he only knew.  My heart ached for the Squire in his grieving moments.  Molly of course could be counted on to come straight away, to care for the Squire.  How can Roger not fall in love with her, once he gets Cynthia's beauty out of his mind.

Ciao for now~

[PatH]

Not so sure which caught the Squire's attention more regarding his DIL.  The fact that she was French, Catholic...or that she had been a servant!  If she had been an English servant...would he be as disturbed? 

Gaskell has really pulled out all the stops on making Aimée unacceptable to Squire Hamley; servant is already totally bad, French is bad, and Catholic is the least of it though I think at that time there were still legal barriers for Catholics in some fields.

The question is, what is Gaskell doing by making Aimée so superficially unacceptable?  The answer isn't going to be simple.

Is there any laws of etiquette where it requires the son to marry his brother's wife should he die?  I don't suppose there is any obligation for Roger to take Aimee as his responsibility, other than financially, and provide their home to her.

This is an Old Testament obligation, but I think it was contrary to English law--certainly to English tradition.  Your brother's wife was your "sister", so it would be incest.  Roger would be out of the loop for financial and legal responsibility too; that's up to the squire, and as of now we don't know what the technical obligations are.