America's Prophet by Bruce Feiler February Bookclub Online

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

     

AMERICA’S PROPHET: MOSES AND THE AMERICAN STORY explores the role of Moses as America’s true founding father and the inspiration for everyone from the pilgrims to Benjamin Franklin, the Statue of Liberty to Superman, Abraham Lincoln to Ronald Reagan to Barack Obama. ~ from correspondence between Bruce Feiler and Ann

Why did a 3,000-year-old prophet, played down by Jews and Christians for centuries and portrayed in the Bible as a reluctant leader, become such a presence in American public life? ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009.

When the Supreme Court began its new term this month, the justices went to work in a building overflowing with Moses. The biblical prophet sits at the center of the structure's east pediment; he appears in the gallery of statues leading into the court and in the south frieze of the chamber; the Ten Commandments are displayed on the courtroom's gates and doors. ~ Washington Post, October 18, 2009

LINKS:  Moses on the Web -- Bruce Feiler Interview on PBS with Travis Smiley -- Top Five Causes of the Civil War -- Historic Timeline of Slavery and the Underground Railroad -- Bell cast in England and sent to St Paul's after 9/11

Starting on Feb 1st, we will read and discuss

Chaps 1,2 &3--1st week
Chaps 4&5--2nd week
Chaps 6&7--3rd week
Chaps 8,9 & 10- Last week

Discussion Leader:  Ann

[JoanP]

Back to the Masons.  The first thing I think  when I think Masons is - a secret society. Or perhaps, an exclusive society.   And then I think of it as  a fraternity - dedicated to civil causes.  I don't think of them as Biblical scholars - or readers.  I understand that their roots go back to Medieval times, but don't understand why the  exclusivity.
Feiler writes that Masonry is a belief system focusing on individual principals and a pattern of living that led to a better society.  Seems to me that the more admitted into such a club, the better for society.  Why limit participation?

My husband tells me that his father was a Mason - though my husband didn't know it until his dad's funeral.  Bruce was 23.  He was surpiised when a good number of Masons showed up for the funeral and put something on his coffin.  They announced his father was a 32nd degree Mason.    He knew his dad used to go off to meetings  - he was a member of the Lions' Club and other clubs in the community - but it wasn't until his father's death that he learned that his father was a Mason - it was that secret.

[ANNIE]

JoanP,
The only things I know about the Masons is what Dan Brown tells me!  Tee hee! 

I like the definition of Masonry that BF quotes Tom Savini as saying:
"I would call it a catalyst for religion.  It's a belief system that focuses individuals on principles and patterns of living that Masonry believes are fulfilling and lead to a better society.  And yet it doesn't fill in the details.  Masonry tells you to worship a Supreme Being, but it doesn't ask you what you call that being.  It reveres what it calls the Volume of Sacred Law but it doesn't tell you what that volume should be."
From the little bit that's here about Masonry, how it was open to all not just the elite,  it becomes available to anyone man who wants to join it.  And now the middle class has their own fraternity sans a college degree. 
And the story about the murder Hiram Abiff, 'master workman' of the temple.  Machenah!  One word meaning "Thanks be to God, our Master has got a Mossy House!"  Do we all buy this??  Well, it doesn't matter really.  It seems good for all to have something to join and honor as their code of living.  And, the belief system certainly is not harmful.  So, men, of all backgrounds and religions can come together and claim their freedom and honor their responsibilities.

[ANNIE]

We keep referring to our author as BF.  And I kept wondering why we were giving Ben Franklin all the credit for his writing.  Biiiiiiiiing!  Wake up, Annie!

[Ella Gibbons]

No doubt I am being too critical of Feiler when I say that he should have stuck to biblical history and kept shy of American history.  He keeps stretching his premise that Moses was inspirational to the founding of America, its founding fathers, etc.  And pages of Masonic history!  All because Washington had to substitute a Masonic bible at his swearing in as President.  And why a bible is necessary?  I believe Feiler tells us that GW is following the titled Kings and Queens of England, while at the same time he is putting his head in a possible noose to escape England's tyranny!

Ironic!  We love England, its grandeur, its literature, its empire, its endless kings and queens, their stories!  But we don't want to imitate it.  But their stands GW, in satins, lace and velvet swearing in.  

And yet we all are so fortunate to have had him!

I loved the story of Ripley, Ohio.  "It became so wealthy that during the panic of 1837 the town sent money to help bail out New York banks."   Imagine a town doing that!  Did it have to vote on that proposition or did the Mayor and the town council just send it on their own recognizance?  

This little village of 2000  must be proud to be so prominent in Feiler's book.  http://www.ripleyohio.net/

And what a guy John Rankin was!

[ANNIE]

There is history here that I wasn't aware of, in that Ripley was prominent in the underground railroad.  And, before the Civil War, the state of Ohio was the new Promised Land plus the Ohio R. was the Jordan, to those escaping slaves. 

Here's the John Rankin House:
http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/underground/oh3.htm

And several others involved in the UGR:

The John Parker House:
http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/underground/oh2.htm

The Harriet Beecher Stowe House:
http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/underground/oh1.htm

Remember Uncle Tom's Cabin by Harriet Beecher Stowe?  Did you know that she lived in Cincinnati when she wrote that book.  Her father, her brother and she were strong abolitionists.

Harriet's brother, Henry Ward Beecher  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Ward_Beecher     lived in Lawrenceburg, Indiana, for two yrs. at his first assignment as a minister.  After that he accepted a call to  the 2nd Presbyterian church in Indianapolis for 8 yrs. while later he became the minister of the famous Plymouth Church in Brooklyn.  He was well known for his quotes:

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/henry_ward_beecher.html

His wife, Eunice White Bullard Beecher, also wrote a novel which concerns a minister and his family's life in a small Indiana town, "From Dawn to Daylight: The Simple Story of a Western Home".    http://www.bsu.edu/ourlandourlit/literature/Authors/beechere.html

[JoanP]

Is that so, Annie?  Anyone can be a Mason?    I thought they were  exclusive and secretive.  I'll have to rethink my thoughts on them, then.

Ella, I waver from thinking as you do -that BF (not Ben Franklin, Annie ) "keeps stretching his premise that Moses was inspirational to the founding of America" - and then I'm struck by the number of references to Genesis, Exodus and Leviticus - etched and engraved in so many of our early monuments - and even the Liberty Bell.  I think the comparison to Exodus is very apt - the escape from tyranny and oppression, don't you?  Since Leviticus - and Exodus were written by Moses (were they?) I can see where BF is calling him "America's prophet."

 Especially now as we consider the abolition of slavery and the Underground Railroad. "Let my people go," said Moses!   I read with interest of the placing of the nails in trees at crossroads, the quilt patterns, the spirituals that served as codes. directions to safe houses for the escaping slaves.  Thanks for those links, Annie.  I'm going to spend some time there now.

It's been so many years since I read "Uncle Tom's Cabin" - I'm going to have to read it again now - specifically to look for Biblical references tp Exodus - Moses in particular.
...found an on-line text you might be interested in looking at too -  

Uncle Tom's Cabin
 

Ella, I forgot how the town of Ripley made all that money - can you remind me?

[Babi]

 Yes, Moses and Aaron were of the tribe of Levi, and Aaron became the
High Priest of the Hebrews. The tribe of Levi, from that time on, were
the priests and temple caretakers. Both parents may have been Levites,
since it is my understanding that offspring of the mother are Jews by
lineage. I believe the idea is that there might be a doubt as to the
father, but there is no question as to the mother.

  I did that, too, ANNIE. Don't feel lonesome.

 It may be a bit of a stretch, ELLA, but I don't think we can blame it
on Feiler. There has been ample evidence that the people of that time
were finding these parallels with Moses and the Exodus. I was impressed
by Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman, surveying everything published in America between 1760 and 1805.   The book most often cited during that period  ‘founding era’,  was the Book of Deuteronomy.
  And there is more to the Masonic influence than the use of their Bible at the inauguration.  Masonic symbols can be found so many places, including the currency we use every day.
  Washington in satins, lace and velvet?  On pg. 77, his inaugural attire
is described as "in a full suit of dark-brown cloth of American manufacture, with a steel hilted sword, white-silk stockings, and silver shoe-buckles."
 

[JoanP]

This best-selling book, "Uncle Tom's Cabin" is extremely well written, Harriet!

I've just finished Chapter IV - looking for references to Exodus -  This chapter takes place in Uncle Tom's cabin - here's what I see -

Uncle Tom was a sort of patriarch in religious matters, in the neighborhood. Having, naturally, an organization in which the morale was strongly predominant, together with a greater breadth and cultivation of mind than obtained among his companions, he was looked up to with great respect, as a sort of minister among them; and the simple, hearty, sincere style of his exhortations might have edified even better educated persons. But it was in prayer that he especially excelled. Nothing could exceed the touching simplicity, the child-like earnestness, of his prayer, enriched with the language of Scripture, which seemed so entirely to have wrought itself into his being, as to have become a part of himself, and to drop from his lips unconsciously; in the language of a pious old negro, he "prayed right up." And so much did his prayer always work on the devotional feelings of his audiences, that there seemed often a danger that it would be lost altogether in the abundance of the responses which broke out everywhere around him.


 Special favorite hymn -had oft repeated the words --

"O, I'm going to glory, -- won't you come along with me?
Don't you see the angels beck'ning, and a calling me away?
Don't you see the golden city and the everlasting day?"

   There were others, which made incessant mention of "Jordan's banks," and "Canaan's fields," and the "New Jerusalem;" for the negro mind, impassioned and imaginative, always attaches itself to hymns and expressions of a vivid and pictorial nature; and, as they sung, some laughed, and some cried, and some clapped hands, or shook hands rejoicingly with each other, as if they had fairly gained the other side of the river.

O Canaan, bright Canaan
I'm bound for the land of Canaan."

[mabel1015j]

Annie - thanks for those sites.

I have a more favorable impression of the Masons since reading this chapter. I always perceived it as "a gentlemen's club" as BF states, but not as a "pan-religious body" and i still question that.  He says "masonry was a republican institution...it repudiated the monarchial hierarchy of family and favoritism and created a new hierarchial order that rested on 'real worth and personal merit"......"a social movement, not some secret control over America"......"Washington emphasized certain values - fortitude, justice, humility - that are very masonic."

I think it became, especially in the 19th and 20th century, a very selective group, you had to be "nominated" by a Mason to be inducted and therefore i think it became more elitest than BF suggests. All that secrecy made it suspect about what was going on and what they were about. If the goals of education, justice, non-prejudice, etc, remain that has not been my perception.

I know that there is a very large group of separate, Black Masons, which indicates that they, of course, were not part of the "freedom" and "justice" concepts. My father-in-law was a member of the Black Masons, so i asked my DH to tell my his perception of them. We decided that in order for the Black M's organization to have learned all of the bits and pieces of this secret org'n, that some where along the line White men most have encouraged and assisted Blacks to form their own org'n. After all, it would be good for Whites if Blacks encouraged education, justice, integrity, civility, etc. My DH saw his father's org'n as a social/community support group, and an elitest one also. If you had a problem you could go to a fellow Mason and get support. In the days before any kind of financial security, i'm sure that was a factor in the White Masons also. I have always been amazed at how often men - and promenient men - went bankrupt in the 18th and 19th centuries.

As w/ many aspects of society, it appears they had lofty goals, but difficulty living up to them, themselves.......................jean

[bellamarie]

Ella, 

I loved the story of Ripley, Ohio.  "It became so wealthy that during the panic of 1837 the town sent money to help bail out New York banks."   Imagine a town doing that!  Did it have to vote on that proposition or did the Mayor and the town council just send it on their own recognizance? 

And here we are how many years later, and we have the government bailing out the New York banks, again with tax payers money. 

JoanP,   

"My husband tells me that his father was a Mason - though my husband didn't know it until his dad's funeral.  but it wasn't until his father's death that he learned that his father was a Mason - it was that secret.

Jean, 

"it repudiated the monarchial hierarchy of family and favoritism and created a new hierarchial order that rested on 'real worth and personal merit"......"a social movement, not some secret control over America"

I am uncomfortable with any group that has to be secretive, regardless of what they say their intentions are.  Men belonging to a group having to keep it from their wives and family is deceptive.   So if this "gentleman's club" is suppose to be for the good of the people, why be secret, and why encourage blacks to form their own group when they could have all worked together for all races?  Imagine how they could have closed the gap on racism as far back as that?  Many a group/cult has been formed in the name of doing goodwill for the society, based on their own ideas and values.  Sure is food for thought....

[JoanP]

  Today, there are almost five-million Masons in the world, with the United States claiming about three and one half million of the total membership.
Here are the Steps to Join a Masonic Lodge

Though all the links on this page do not work, the one called "interesting facts about Freemasonry" is ...interesting.  

Jean, I read your post on the Black Masons with interest.  Where is your DH from?  I'm wondering if MA?  You might be interested in reading of Prince Hall who is considered to be the founder of Black Freemasonry in the US - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Hall

Have just finished Chapter VII of Uncle Tom's Cabin.  In this chapter, Eliza is running towards Canada from Kentucky  through the icy Ohio River with her little son who is about to be sold into slavery. She can see the Ohio side of the river - is told to make her way to the "big white house"  she can see from the river's edge...

Biblical reference -

"An hour before sunset, she entered the village of T -- -- , by the Ohio river, weary and foot-sore, but still strong in heart. Her first glance was at the river, which lay, like Jordan, between her and the Canaan of liberty on the other side


"Isn't there any ferry or boat, that takes people over to B -- -- , now?" she said.

she gazed with longing eyes on the sullen, surging waters that lay between her and liberty."

[ANNIE]

There seem to be ivy league secret societies such as "Skull&Crossbones" which are accused of owning the American presidency and all its men.

http://www.skullandcrossbones.org/articles/skullandbones.htm

John Kerry and George Bush are both members.

I wonder what their steps to join are??? I bet we'll never know.

Here's the Masonic Commitment to Character:
http://www.gl-mi.org/Should-I-Ask.pdf

Well, hecky durn, the Girl Scouts and the Boy Scouts have commitment to character. 

Ella,
I believe that BF has chained all these events together to show us his take on Moses and America's founders plus other leaders in our country. 

[Babi]

TYPO: In case you couldn't find it, on p.114 the scripture quoted as in Exodus 11 is actually in Exodus 21, v. 10. 

 I agree, JEAN. Especially the statement that it [b]"repudiated the monarchial hierarchy of family and favoritism and created a new hierarchial order that rested on 'real worth and personal merit". [/b]
There is a strong perception of Masonry as showing favoritism for it's members and their families. Masons are expected to support and come to the aid of their brother Masons, above all others.

[ANNIE]

Babi,
Thanks for pointing out the correct Exodus quote.  Am I confused?  When I read that I understood it to mean they didn't honor the monoarchial hierarchy or disowned that term.  And, then was a man left to find his own path so that he was a better person and therefore made a better patriarch to his family??

When I looked up the word, this is what I found:   http://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=repudiated+definition&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8

Many different words to use for repudiated but if that is word BF chose to use, then I guess I might be right.

What say you? 

[mabel1015j]

Joan - my husband grew up in north Jersey, his father and two brothers were born in Ga and all emigrated to Pa and NJ in the 30's and all 3 were Masons...........jean

[mabel1015j]

On pg 114 Rankin says re. slavery in Deut'y 23 "Thou shalt not deliver unto his master a servant who has escaped."!!
I guess the legislators who wrote the Fugitive Slave Act didn't read the verse........

And then it says that the Rankins raised 22 children, 13 OF THEIR OWN!.................but did you notice that Mrs Rankin, mother of 13, raiser of 22 doesn't have a name!?! It says "Rankin and his wife raised..." "his wife,"  "his wife"?...........we should be celebrating her for raising all those children and we should know her name!!!

Also when BF mentions the quilt codes, he doesn't mention that those were done by women............huuuummm, i'm getting a little skeptical about BF's believe in justice and equality, maybe it doesn't extend to women?

I wonder about the use of the word "spiritual," I didn't see a word history, i'll see if i can find that, but Encarta's definition lists:

1. of soul: relating to the soul or spirit, usually in contrast to material things

 2. of religion: relating to religious or sacred things rather than worldly things

3. temperamentally or intellectually akin: connected by an affinity of the mind, spirit, or temperament
(spiritual mother of the young artist)

4. refined: showing great refinement and concern with the higher things in life
and:
5. folk hymn: a religious song, especially one arising from African American culture

6. things of spirit: matters concerning the spirit
He was deeply concerned with anything to do with the spiritual.
 
  BF seems to use it as definition 2, but i'm not sure if all the people he is quoting are using it in the same way.

I liked the story of Harriet Tubman using 1, 2 and/or 3 verses of Let My People Go as coded msgs to escaping slaves. ...................I hadn't read about that before............ jean

[Babi]

 ANNIE, as I understand it, they rejected the idea that authority and
power should rest in someone's hands solely because they were born into a certain family, or because someone had powerful friends (favoritism). They argued that a man should advance on his own merits.  Nevertheless, in their with the outside world, they did, and do, show favoritism for members of the Masonic order.
  The revolutionaries were 'repudiating' allegiance to England, and the
Masonic position supported that stance.

 JEAN, perhaps the legislators were making a careful and self-serving distinction between 'servant' and 'slave'.  They argued that slaves were 'property' and property should be returned to the owner. Slavery and all the laws that protected it were only possible by first dehumanizing it's victims.
  Thanks for those definitions. My impression was that def. 1. and 5.
fit just right. Those people brought their own way of worshipping-
the singing, clapping, dancing and shouting- and incorporated that
spirit into the Christian teachings.

[JoanP]

A question about Moses - Babi wrote:

"Yes, Moses and Aaron were of the tribe of Levi, and Aaron became the
High Priest of the Hebrews"

.

I was curious to learn whether Moses and Aaron were blood brothers, or does it mean that both were of the tribe of Levi.  So, I did a quick search - and found some interesting things about Moses - Moses as a prophet.
This seems to be a basic Judaic educational site ~ http://www.jewfaq.org/moshe.htm  Levi - was Moses and Aaron's maternal grandfather.
From this site  -

As important as Moses was to the Children of Israel, it is always important to remember that Moses himself was not the deliverer or redeemer of Israel. It was G-d who redeemed Israel, not Moses. Moses was merely G-d's prophet, His spokesman. The traditional text of the Pesach haggadah does not even mention Moses' name. In order to prevent people from idolatrously worshipping Moses, his grave was left unmarked (Deut. 34:6).

This seems to be what some of you have been saying.  Do you get the impression that Bruce Feiler places undue importance on Moses?


"The history below is derived from written Torah, Talmud, Midrash and other sources.

Aaron was Moses' older brother. He was born in 2365, three years before Moses, before the Pharaoh's edict requiring the death of male Hebrew children

Moses was born on 7 Adar in the year 2368 from Creation (circa 1400 BCE), the son of Amram, a member of the tribe of Levi, and Yocheved, Levi's daughter (Ex. 6:16-20). Unlike the heroes of many other ancient cultures, Moses did not have a miraculous birth. Amram married Yocheved, and she conceived, and she gave birth (Ex. 2:1-2). The only unusual thing about his birth is Yocheved's advanced age: Yocheved was born while Jacob and his family were entering Egypt, so she was 130 when Moses was born."

Can anyone explain these advanced ages?  Do you suppose that they calculated a year differently back then?

[JoanP]

For you, Jean:

In 1892, six years after his death, a monument to John Rankin and his wife, Jean Lowrey, "Freedom's Heroes," was dedicated on the grounds of the cemetery in Ripley, Ohio.

I think I've read enough of Uncle Tom's Cabin conclude that BF did not stretch things a bit to reach the conclusion that Moses (Let My People Go") and the story of Exodus were central to the Underground Railroad movement-
I'm going to read more of the book tomorrow, but the point was made in HBStowe's bestselling book of the time.  Even children were named "Moses"  -
The story of Eliza's escape to save her young child - and herself - from being sold into slavery - was a true story that Harriet Beecher Stowe knew of.  The house they reached on the other side of the river was indeed John Rankin's house in Ripley, Ohio. 

Tomorrow I believe we move into the battle of the Moseses in Chapter VI- with both the North and the South claiming Moses as their prophet!  Reading this chapter, I came to the conclusion that quoting and interpreting Biblical passages is like quoting Law...out of context, passages can be quoted to support any cause.

[Babi]

   JOANP, it seems most unlikely that Yochebed was 130 years old and
still bearing children. To say she was "Levi's daughter" does not
necessarily mean his direct daughter. Descendents were often referred to
as 'sons' and 'daughters' of whomever.
   I wonder how they even got those birth dates, as It would surely have
been impossible to keep birth records for all those people. I think
"circa" should probably be attached to all of them.

I came to the conclusion that quoting and interpreting Biblical passages is like quoting Law...out of context, passages can be quoted to support any cause.

 Absolutely, JOAN. And it happens all the time. Before I will accept any
notion based on a single scripture, I want to see the "two or three
witnesses" that scripture commands. Show me supporting texts and
testimony.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, JOAN AND BABI, for that information, I agree with all that you say.  The quotes, the dates, etc. from the Bible, impossible to interpret.

I was just skimming through some of the pages in Chapter V before I go on to the following chapters. When Feiler is describing how to "make a slave" he quite possibly is correct when he says you must strip away a person's culture.  Indeed, yes. 

"The controlling part is that I'm trying to convince you that my God is the real God.  In the African perspective, God is to be loved.  In the European perspective, God is to be feared."

I was taught both perspectives as a child and was always confused.  Am still so, but I think I like the God is Love perspective better.

How about both of you?

JOANP:  You asked how Ripley, Ohio got its wealth.  I'm sure that being situated on the Ohio River where transportation was vital to the nation's interest helped a lot, don't you imagine?

Who is the audience for this book?  Who is Feiler addressing?  Who is he attempting to teach? 

Who is the reader?

[Ella Gibbons]

I do like biblical history.  And we have discussed two of Bruce Feiler's books that were very good I think:

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/WalkingtheBible.html

http://www.seniorlearn.org/bookclubs/archives/nonfiction/Abraham.html

WALKING THE BIBLE and ABRAHAM, both good historical books.

But attempting to link Moses to the founding fathers and early American history is a "stretch" as I have said before.

However, any book, any written words are worth pursuing and I shall stay with Feiler until the end of this one. 

I note that he has written a book about the circus and one about Japan; both might be very good.  And there is one titled DAYS AND NIGHTS AT OXFORD AND CAMBRIDGE.  Interesting.

[Jonathan]

Ella asks,

'Who is the audience for this book?  Who is Feiler addressing?  Who is he attempting to teach? 

Who is the reader?'

Answers to those questions would no doubt clear up some of the problems some of us are having with Feiler's look at American history. I've participated in a number of book discussions here dealing with founding fathers, Lincoln and the Civil War and Depression America, and never a word about Moses. I remember reading that John Adams was very devout, almost puritanical, but I don't remember that he was determined to get his religious ideas into the Constitution. And many of the other FFs I believed to be influenced more by Thomas Paine, along with Roman and Greek political leaders, than by biblical heroes. After all there is more Latin than Hebrew on the dollar bill.

Chapter 6 has turned things around for me. After feeling a bit impatient with Feiler's superficial cherrypicking among American historical events and processes, he really scores with demonstrating the influence of the Bible in America beginning with the Second Awakening and through the years leading up to the Civil War. Perhaps God did decide to get involved in America's Manifest Destiny.

Was the outcome of the Civil War a victory for God? Was God angry with Southern leaders for justifying slavery with their misuse of biblical verses. They seem to have won the fierce pre-war debates, proving biblically that the Bible 'sanctions, tolerates, regulates and does nothing to eliminate slavery.' (p154) Did God choose a reluctant Lincoln to fulfil the Divine Wrath. Lincoln comes on the scene and succeeds in American poitics by 'being on good terms with the Good Book' (160), describing the Bible as 'the richest source of pertinent quotations'. From quoting to believing was an agony for him no doubt, and the Emancipation Prolamation followed after a 'solemn vow before God'. The proclamation, Feiler tells us, was 'the first time Lincoln's personal  relationship with God appears to have crept into his decision making.' (162)

This opens the door to curious speculation and curious theology. Feiler asks Professor Guelzo 'whether Lincoln was more interested in the Old or New Testament: 'It's the Old Testament that fascinates him...It's a God who's remote and hands down ways of doing things. It's a God who promises deliverance. And deliverance, of course, is the message of Gettysburg.' (163)

And then Lincoln is assassinated on Good Friday, and with that a revision of Lincoln's image. 'If you had to compare Lincoln with Moses or Jesus, which would you choose', Professor Guelzo is asked. With that question things take a new turn. From deliverance we go to redemption. Prof. G: 'The private Lincoln is more like Jesus, but the public Lincoln in more like Moses.'

What would Lincoln say to all that? I like to think that he would insist on the nearness of God in the Old Testament. Anyone who was at Mt. Sinai would vouch for that.

Isn't it interesting that 94 books about heaven were published in the decade after the Civil War. So many sorrowing for lost ones. I've been out of town for the last week, taking part in the obsequies to a dear departed sister. No need to sorrow. She was 87 and all her life dearly loved her bible. She lived a long and useful life, and hundreds came to say farewell. A brother spoke the moving words 'I am the Ressurection and the Life' at the gravesite. A memorial service featured some of her many talented children and grandchildren. Amazing Grace, with vocal and soft drumbeat. In the Sweet Bye and Bye played on the trumpet. This is the Day That the Lord has made, by another granddaughter. All very moving. Religion does add a lot of solemnity and meaning to death. She was my first Sunday School teacher 70 years ago,  one mourner told me. Pardon me, while I wipe away a tear.

[GinnyAnn]

I finally got my copy from the library.  Jumped in and am reading about Ripley Ohio.  I think I heard that a house in my area was a part of the underground railroad. 

[JoanP]

Oh Jonathan, now you have me teary-eyed as well, not out of sadness, but at the beauty of the ceremony.  We should all be so blessed!

  A wonderful overview of Chapter VI, Jonathan...leaving us with Lincoln in the role of America's greatest Moses. Has Feiler answered Ella's questions in this chapter?  Who is he addressing?  What is his "lesson"?  Hasn't he been saying all along that whenever people stray from God, from the Bible, that a crisis will arise, that a leader will come forward to lead people back?  How does Feiler see his "audience"  now?  Have we moved from a religous state to the secular?  Is Feiler's purpose to make us aware of this - and where we are in the cycle?  How would you characterize today's society?
Ella, do you think the fact that today we look upon God as loving and forgiving draws us to the Bible for guidance - or does it make us feel that it isn't really necessary?

But what of the Civil War period?  It seems that both the South and the North had turned to the Bible for guidance.  Or were they using the Bible for political purposes?  Feiler writes that the end of the war brought about the "most severe theological crisis."   How was this crisis resolved?

Ginny Ann, will you remind us of where your area is located?  Please keep reading...chapter VI...we need your input!

Ella, like you"The controlling part is that I'm trying to convince you that my God is the real God.  In the African perspective, God is to be loved.  In the European perspective, God is to be feared."

[Babi]

 ELLA, I think it is really both. God is love, merciful and forgiving. 
But he is also to be respected and obeyed. God is, after all, GOD.
  Actually, it was the Pilgrims, and the founding Fathers, and the slaves
on the Underground Railroad who make the links with Moses. Feiler is
just pointing this out. He is showing us the influence of Moses' history
in our own history.

  JONATHAN, to me the surprise was that there was Hebrew on the dollar
bill at all. Jewish immigration at that time was very low; they had no
signicant influence as a group, that I can see. The teaching of Hebrew in
the colleges and the Biblical influences of this time apparently do
come from the scriptures, predominantly Exodus and Deuteronomy.

The Great Awakening;  This is a site that helped put 'The Great Awakening' in a proper perspective for me. I really had only the vaguest notion of it.
  tp://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/eighteen/ekeyinfo/grawaken.htm

 

"proving biblically that the Bible 'sanctions, tolerates, regulates and does nothing to eliminate slavery.' "

 
   I agree that nothing was done to eliminate slavery, except to forbid
Hebrew enslaving Hebrew, and allowing for the redemption of Hebrews
enslaved elsewhere. Realistically, the Biblical leaders had to deal with
conditions as they existed, and the Bible is brutally honest about human
shortcomings. There are instances where leniency in judging slaves was
made law. In the New Testament, the Christian slave attains a different
status. "In Christ..there is neither slave nor free.." Masters and slaves
were instructed in a new relationship to one another.
  The groundwork was laid there for the changes to come. It is our
shame that those changes came so slowly, due to greed, ignorance and
arrogance.

 JONATHAN, that was a very moving tribute to your sister. It meant so
much to me to see the astounding number of people who came to my Father's funeral. I knew he was loved and respected, but I didn't realize how many people he had touched. The most touching eulogy was spoken
but a nephew, the son of his twin brother.  I'll never forget it.

[JoanP]

Feiler writes that Cincinnati was "the fastest growing city in the world" between 1820 and 1840 - and "the firece testing ground for religious freedom." (I'm puzzled about what Daniel Boone had to do with all this, how he came to be called the Moses of the WEST.  Can anyone explain that?  From what opperssion was he fleeing?)

 Did it strike you that in a discourse on religious freedom, we are reading of the Protestants "vicious battles with the Catholics"  and the Mormans and Jews' "struggle for legitimacy."  How free is all that?
So, there were religious struggles, "fierce and vicious" - and next we are told that that the battle between North and South was a battle of the Moseses, both claiming the mantle of Exodus.  

Till now, have you thought of the Civil War as a Biblical argument over slavery - Feiler tells us that Lincoln thought God would decide whose view of the Bible was correct.  So then, did he believe that God had been on the antislavery side of the North because they won the war?  No, Feiler tells us that neither side won the war.  I think I'll agree with the idea that no one side ever wins a war - everyone loses.
What does he mean when he writes that Lincoln regarded the Bible as just another source of knowledge, but not the ultimate truth.  I got lost in the conclusion that "the culture has two souls. "  What did you take from that?

[Babi]

 JOANP, Boone was probably just as puzzled as you are.  According to the book, Boone was simply an "undistinguished trader". John Filson used him to dramatize a booklet he wrote trying to recruit people to settle in Kentucky. "Since Boone was a man of few words, Filson flushed out his 'autobiography' with elaborate fictionalizations..."  Alas, another treasured legend debunked!  The 'Moses' likeness came from the idea of "venturing into the wilderness" and taking people with him.

 Feiler has well documented the fierce religious debates on slavery that
preceded the Civil War. Yipes, can you imagine a debate that goes on for nine nights?!! I think that does give a picture of the tensions
that existed and were growing prior to the civil war. I certainly don't
think the Civil War itself could be called a 'Biblical' argument over
slavery.

 I found myself annoyed by what seems to me the carelessness of Biblical
citation on p. 154. In Corinthians and Romans, Paul is speaking, not
Jesus. And in 1 Peter, Peter is speaking, not Paul. I also notice that a
careful reading of the scriptures referred to gives a different picture
than that suggested by the 'Southern leaders', but I won't go into that
quarrel. We can all read them for ourselves.
  I would point out that it should be remembered that such advice was
being given to slaves who had become Christian and wanted to know how they should conduct themselves. Admonitions were also given to new Christians who owned slaves, especially when the slaves were also
Christian. They were dealing with the 'here and now', the world as it
existed. In today's idiom, 'where the rubber meets the road'.

 

[Ella Gibbons]

JONATHAN:  "I've participated in a number of book discussions here dealing with founding fathers, Lincoln and the Civil War and Depression America, and never a word about Moses

JOANP: "Till now, have you thought of the Civil War as a Biblical argument over slavery "-

BABI: "I found myself annoyed by what seems to me the carelessness of Biblical
citation on p. 154. In Corinthians and Romans, Paul is speaking, not
Jesus. And in 1 Peter, Peter is speaking, not Paul.


All the above quotes are indicative of our problems in reading Feiler's book.

I haven't read the next three chapters but will today as I am positively snowed in.  If I tried to back my car out of the garage the icicles protruding from the roof would scratch the car and with a foot that is not completely healed from surgery I dare not try to do too much.  How annoying is winter!

GINNYANN:  What is your opinion of the chapters you have read?

[Ella Gibbons]

Cincinnati, Queen City, a two-hour drive from my home, is still a lovely city, a city of hills and history.

The first Elderhostel I ever went on (when I was 60 years of age, a long time ago) was to Cincinnati and I drove there alone staying in a dormitory on the campus of the University of Cincinnati where my daughter graduated.  I requested a roommate and Florence, from New York,  was just delightful (most New Yorkers are!), but she was amused, and somewhat chagrined, at the fact that she had to arrive by air in the state of Kentucky and cross the Ohio River to get to Cincinnati; her tale of that epiosode was greatly enhanced that evening by the bottle of wine she pulled out of her suitcase and shared with me.  

Gosh, you couldn't put that in a suitcase today!

Henry Ward Beecher.  I remember his name from some historical book.

"The least understood dimension in the War Between the States is that it was also a War Between the Moseses.:  

Never have I heard that!  I do believe that both the North and South in the Civil War believed that God was on their side.  Isn't it still true?  Muslims are dying because God wills it.  

I wonder what we believe we are doing fighting the Muslims.

The United States was 95 percent Protestant in 1845 Feiler tells us.  That's remarkable if true.  Yet he says early in this chapter (VI) that in the Queen City of Cincinnati vicious batteles were being fought between Catholics, Protestants, Jews and Mormons.  

My grandmother was bigoted where Catholics were concerned.  She thought that they wanted to take over America and their Pope was a King and, somehow, being around her when young I got the idea that the Masons were formed to prevent that.  She talked of revivals, tent meetings, cottage prayers, etc. when she was young and in her early marriage.  Her husband died very young and she had 3 children to support which she did very well, opening her home to "old-age pensioners" - most of whom were state employees, teachers, etc.  

For some reason, I resent Feiler telling me about slavery.  How can you have lived in America and gone to school here without learning our terrible history of slavery and the war that was fought over the issue.  Perhaps he is directing these stories to immigrants?

Has he mentioned the Gideon Bibles in every hotel room?  

[Ella Gibbons]

"http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1477/why-is-there-a-bible-in-every-hotel-room"

"In the early days, most of the Gideons were traveling salesmen who wanted to be effecitve Christian witnesses while on the road. They decided to place a Bible at the reception desk in each hotel they frequented so patrons could borrow it. The Bible also served as a silent witness in these hotels after the Gideons had checked out. Today, the Gideons place more than 45,000,000 bibles annually in prisons, hospitals, military bases and, of course, hotel rooms. "

[Persian]

ELLA - I was reminded of the Gideons when I spent Christmas weekend in the hospital.  Since I had not planned to remain overnight, I didn't bring any reading material and the nurses didn't have any way to find a newspaper for me.  So I read one of the Bibles left by the Gideons in the drawer of my nightstand.  The last time I recall reading from a Gideons' Bible was many years ago on a train.  But it helped pass the time, while I rested in  hospital, and for that I was grateful.

Mahlia

[GinnyAnn]

I like it best when he tries to travel the Underground Railroad. When he is first person at the actual places he is writing about, that appeals the most to me. For some reason this book 'feels heavier' reading than his Abraham which I loved reading.  Reading America's Prophet is like reading an 'assignment for a class.' If it wasn't for this discussion, I would give up on it.

I live in NE Ohio, in Medina County.  The house I am thinking of as part of the Underground Railroad is in the City of Medina.

[salan]

I turned my book in after reading only 100 pages.  I just couldn't make myself read anymore.  I enjoyed some of the historical facts, but felt that BF was stretching too much to prove his premise--maybe it was just the mood I was in, but....

I am looking forward to joining you in next months discussion.
Sally

[Babi]

 I found it most interesting, ELLA, that Feiler says the hoopla of
polititical vote seeking was adopted from the excitement and emotionalism of revivals and tent meetings. Now that he points it out, I can see the similarities. The politicians are not slow to see what will draw people's attention.
 
  Don't you think it's always easier to read and discuss something in the
distant past?  The closer it gets to home, the more sensitive we are.
This book is not easy, GINNY ANN, no question about it.  There is so
much material, I'm having a hard time keeping abreast of the reading and
have taken more notes than I have had time to discuss. But I am reallyearning some things here.

 I think there can be no doubt that the language of the Bible, especially
that of Exodus and Deuteronomy, was widely used and widely understood in the days of which Feiler writes.  The imagery of Moses
was widely used to popularize many actions and purposes. 
  I think our objection here and now is that we don't feel the same way
about the Moses story today or find it central to our present understanding of our country. Therefore we find it's importance then
hard to acknowledge. Nevertheless,  I believe Feiler is correct about
it's usefulness and importance in our early history.

[JoanP]

Babi, in this morning's Washington Post,  Michael Dirda has an interesting  review of a book by Kristin Swenson - "Bible Babel: Making sense of the most talked about book of all time."  I'm going to try to get it on line here - because the author makes some very relevant points to what you have just posted when you say  "I think our objection here and now is that we don't feel the same way about the Moses story today or find it central to our present understanding of our country"

From this review:

"Once upon a time, kids learned scripture in church or at catechism; family Bibles were read aloud on Sunday and passed down from one generation to the next; the great figures of the Old Testament were equally familiar to both Jews and Christians. Perhaps this is still largely true, but I wonder."   Review of Bible Babel

What do you think?  Is the Bible widely read by the younger generation today?

"If it wasn't for this discussion, I would give up on it."

Ginny Ann, I know  what you mean.  I too find myself struggling to accept come of the connections to Moses that seem so obvious to the author.  Sally, I felt that "BF was stretching to prove his premise" but must admit I'm impressed with the research and the impact of the whole story of Exodus on different periods of  America's history.  It is only in the later chapters - the Civil Rights section, especially,  where I begin to see Moses.  Right now it is the Exodus story that has my attention.

 - I'm going to have to revisit Ohio -with fresh eyes...The state does seem to have been the crossroads between North and South, doesn't it?  (I'd always thought of Virginia as the crossroads...)  The Underground Railroad compares to the Red Sea, don't you think?

[JoanP]

"Just when America's connection to Moses was tarnished by its association with the losing side of the Civil War, along came the most captivating symbol yet, and a renewed look to its Mosaic past." BF Chapter VII

Can someone explain what Feiler meant with this statement?  The "captivating symbol"  is the Statue of Liberty of course, but what does he mean when he says  "America's connection to Moses was tarnished by its associaton with the losing side of the Civil War?"  I can't quite grasp what he is saying here?

How does the author connect the Statue of Liberty to the Moses story?  Lady Liberty is a symbol of refuge for masses of opperssed people, yes, the promised land,  but who is Moses in this example?
 

[mabel1015j]

I'm back, have been dealing w/ a family crises for 2 days which is now resolved. You've covered a lot of ground that i had notes on, so i'll TRY to be brief... some of you will be skeptical of that statement, i know....lol.

The chapts that talk of the Second Great Awakening and of D Boone and the Civil War really had me crying for footnotes. On pg 144 he gives the statement that in 1850 40% of Americans defined themselves as "evangelical" Chirstians. That may very well be correct, i'd just like to know where he got the fact and what was the definition of "evangilical" at the time. It is true that the Baptist and Methodist denominations grew a lot thru this time (o.k., ask me to ftnt that fact.....it was in all the history texts i've taught U.S. History from...lol)
I liked his reference to political parties learning to use the hoopla of evangelism. He also frequently states "many tho't/saw/believed."  "Many" is such a nebulous word and means nothing if not in context, or referenced.

When i looked at the Boone picture, i tho't of Mary and Joseph going to Bethleham, not Moses leading people out of Egypt, anyone else have that tho't? Many persons of history could be portrayed in the way he has portrayed DB - leaving family for the wilderness - or unfamiliar place - is cleansed and transformed by nature - fits right into the PBS series on the national parks; has an "encounter w/ Providence; climbs a summit and sees paradise; reutrns to summon others to emigrate and transform it to Eden. The two obvious ones that we've discussed here are Lewis and Clark.................and i couldn't tell if Filson was making the comparison or if BF was making the comparison of Boone and Moses.  He also comments on "the shaft of light in front(?), a trail of clouds behind and a white hosre at his side" The clouds are filling in the picture, what else would he put there?

I have to admit that i'm very much a "what i see is what i get" kind of person. I often don't see symbolism until it is explained to me, so i may be being too critical of BF.

On pg 148 he also says "manifest destiny was a way of saying that God had chosen Anglo-Americans to convert the land for him - no matter who got misplaced." That is probably true and was believed at the time, but that has proved a very sad philosophy for Anglos to have had. Let's hope they got God's msg wrong on that issue.  From my reading i believe that there were about 100 million Native Americans in the Americas when the Spanish arrived in the 1500's, by 1900 there may have been 10 million left, meaning 90% had died in some way or other resulting from contact w/ Anglos. No wonder NA'ns consider Columbus day a day for mourning.

On pg 151 - ".......HB Stowe was encouraging her readers to support a cause that involved breaking the law. The only way to do that was to persuade them that God was on their side.......And Stowe succeeded." As w/ manifest destiny i believe it's a problem when human beings decide "God is on our side." As someone else commented that is the belief of radical Moslems at the moment. If God "made" human beings, than is God on a side of some and not others in a war between groups? Or have we, like HBS, used that argument to support our cause? Shouldn't we use logic in our arguments and not portend to speak for God? Lincoln says we don't understand God - Thank YOu Abe.

BF gives "ownership" to the Old Testament to all uses of the words fourscore, brought forth, dedicate, consecrate, hallow, let there be light (statue of Liberty), tables of stone, and Moses face was radiant, etc. Surely every behavior or aspect of life is stated soemwhere in the Bible, but also in Shakespeare, in Greek/Roman/Asian literature and the staement that Moses' "horns" are "echoed in the spikes" on Liberty's head??? (I tho't it was a crown.) He attaches the term "Biblical pattern" to the process of birth, death, rebirth. That process had been discussed, mulled and fought over long before the Old Testament had been written or before the Hebrews existed. That's even beyond "stretching."

Joan - i've given up trying to figure out how BF gets to such statemtns as "A's connection to Moses was tarnished." I am feeling that this book was more thrown together - it was time for a new book - than his others and not as well done.

O.K., i'll stop for now........i am loving all your posts..............jean

[Jonathan]

Quote
"Just when America's connection to Moses was tarnished by its association with the losing side of the Civil War, along came the most captivating symbol yet, and a renewed look to its Mosaic past." BF Chapter VII

Can someone explain what Feiler meant with this statement?  The "captivating symbol"

I believe the answer might be found in what Feiler says at the bottom of the same page (177):

'At the close of the Civil War, the country's most profound shock may have been the damage to its self-image as a chosen people, selected by God to create a biblical  kingdom on earth.

It seems as if the author is disconcerted to find Moses missing in action, so to speak. Has the country turned its back on Moses? America without Moses is not the homeland he is seeking for himself and his co-religionists. I sometimes find myself thinking of the author as the biblical prodigal son returning home. Or reassuring his people that America was, is, and will be their destined land. In other words, I believe it would help to be Jewish to appreciate his story.

How delighted he is to find that the Statue of Liberty can be made to fit into his story. He admits, quite frankly, that he has 'judaicized' the statue, and I have to admit just as frankly, that I no longer recognize the lady as the one that came from France.

But I like his story nevertheless. He starts in a grand way:

Quote (p178-9)

'Not until the boat passes under her feet does my heart skip a beat at her Olympian splendor: her firm grip on the tablet in her left arm, the seven bolts of light from her crown, and the erect majesty of her right arm, with the twenty-karat flame mandging to brighten the gloom. The shock of gold in the otherwise dreary environs reminds me of the Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem.'

Chapter 7 is a tour-de-force in redefining a grand symbol. Not at all what the French had in mind. It seems to me that the author himself is overwhelmed  by the story he is trying to tell. He sure finds himself back on track when he celebrates Yom Kippur in the massive Plymouth Church, Henry Ward Beecher's podium. Another quote I can't resist:

Page 203. 'Though the windows were undecorated in Beecher's time, today they are filled with majestic stained glass that tells the history of American religion. Three focus on the Pilgrims: John Robinson launching the SPEEDWELL, the signing of the Mayflower Compact, and William Brewster landing on Plymouth Rock. The First Great Awakening is honored with Jonathan Edwards, the second with Lyman Beecher. Harriet appears with her sister Catharine in a tribute to women'ss education. Abraham Lincoln peers down on the pulpit, gripping the Emancipation Proclamation. I wispered to my wife, "It's the story of my book!" '

Ginny Ann is right. It's a heavy book. Almost a locked book, until one finds the key.

PBS has something on Winston Churchill tonight. He comes into the story later, when he is made to burst into tears at the thougt of having emulated Moses! Stay tuned.