Author Topic: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online  (Read 58290 times)

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #200 on: January 24, 2014, 07:26:28 PM »
 The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome.
January-February Book Club Online
Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell


Elizabeth Gaskell’s last novel, a tender story of parents, children and step-children, mistakes, and secrets, is considered her masterpiece.  Far more than a nostalgic evocation of village life, this novel offers an ironic critique of mid-Victorian society.

The serialisation of her last novel, Wives and Daughters, began in August 1864. She died of a heart attack in 1865 at the age of 55.  Wives and Daughters was published in book form in early 1866, first in the United States and then, ten days later, in Britain.
You can read the novel online at Project Gutenberg
Discussion Schedule:

Part 3   Jan.23 - Feb.1
    Jan.23 - Jan.29}
        Chapter 21. The Half-Sisters
        Chapter 22. The Old Squire's Troubles
        Chapter 23. Osborne Hamley Reviews His Position
        Chapter 24. Mrs Gibson's Little Dinner
        Chapter 25. Hollingford In A Bustle
        Chapter 26. A Charity Ball
        Chapter 27. Father And Sons

   Jan. 30-Feb.1}
       Chapter 28. Rivalry
       Chapter 29. Bush-Fight
       Chapter 30. Old Ways And New Ways  
          

Some Things to Think About


Let's bring up any words or phrases throughout the book with which we are unfamiliar.

CHAPTER XXI The Half Sisters
Which sister does Osborne come to visit? Could Cynthia and Roger possibly become interested in one another?  How would this affect Molly? Does she already notice an attraction between the two?
 
CHAPTER XXII. The Old Squire's Troubles
Do you see a way out of the squire's troubles? He's sold his timber, taken loans on his land. What is Osborne's reaction when he learns there is no more money for his trips? Would Roger have been able to help if he was home?

CHAPTER XXIII. Osborne Hamley Reviews His Position
Why can't Osborne just tell his father about  his wife and bring her home to the Hall?
Were you surprised at any of the options he considered to make a living?  How did Roger advise him?  

CHAPTER XXIV  Mrs. Gibson's Little Dinner
What more does Mrs. Gaskell reveal about Cynthia in this chapter?  Do you feel you know her any better? Did she really understand Roger's scientific explanation? Is her memory for poetry as prodigious as her mother brags? Does she really think of herself as a dunce?   Why does Mrs. Gibson say Molly is worth 20 of Cynthia?

CHAPTER XXV Hollingford in a Bustle
Did you enjoy Mrs. Gaskell's account of Clare's "luncheon" at the Tower before the ball and her later description when she returned home?  
Were you puzzled at Cynthia's fussing over Molly to make her attractive at the ball? Did she have an ulterior motive? When Molly wished she was pretty like Cynthia, were you surprised at Cynthia's response?

CHAPTER XXVI A Charity Ball
 What did you learn from the  gossipy old maids who attended the ball, regarding Mr. Preston, Clare and Cynthia?  Do you find him dangerous?
"One thing Mrs. Gibson hates - trying to pretend intimacy with great people."  Did this make you smile?
What sort of election is coming in June?  How will it affect Lord Hollingsworth?
"It was not an unsatisfactory ball upon the whole, to Mrs. Gibson."  Oh?  How many occasions did you count the lady's dissatisfaction at this ball?


CHAPTER XXVII Father and Sons
Why do you think  the Squire believes Lord Hollingsford invitation to Roger is some sort of whig trick?  Why is he furious with Roger? Were you surprised Roger decided not to accept the invitation?
Given his deep-rooted prejudices, will the Squire ever accept Osborne's French bride, whom Osborne regards as the future mistress of Hamley Hall? Do you understand where Osborne is spending his money now?

CHAPTER XXVIII. Rivalry
Molly thinks, "Mrs Gibson was ready to go over the ground [about the ball] as many times as any one liked;  but her words were always like ready-made clothes,  and never fitted individual thoughts.  Anybody might have used them, and, with a change of proper names, they might have served to describe any ball.  She repeatedly used the same language in speaking about it, till Molly knew the sentences and their sequence even to irritation."
Is Molly finally catching on to Clare?  Will her comments forthwith change to let her step-mother know that she has given herself away?

I am reading along and wondering why the author named this chapter "Rivalry"? I guess there is a rivalry among the players but softly presented.

The medicines available to this era are self limiting, aren't they?  As Cynthia is offered "a sweet emulsion that will hide the bitters", she says she prefers the bitters without the sweetness.  And after taking them for a few days, Cynthia seems to be recovering from "sorrows and cares".  I am curious about bitters and what exactly they are expected to do.


 
DLs: Marcie,  Joanp,  Barb,  Pedln,  ADOANNIE

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #201 on: January 24, 2014, 07:38:35 PM »
Lucy, there is a strong resemblance between the management - the mis-management of the two estates, Hamley and Downton, isn't there?  Can anyone keep these old estates going - or are they part of the past?
I understood that the Squire was trying to avoid the need to sell any of his land - so he's been selling off the timber.  I'm wondering what a better manager could have done in his place?

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #202 on: January 25, 2014, 11:28:15 AM »
It is interesting how in these last couple of chapters Gaskell has brought to the forefront prejudice of religion, nationality, and education, along with already status, and income.  Good point JoanK., is Gaskell alluding to French women as loose?  I am aware of the religious, economical, and region differences throughout Great Britain, and Europe, and now Gaskell, is bringing it into the story. It just brought a very somber feeling to me, after the first part of the book being so light and humorous.  I am anxious to meet Aimee.  Osborne has showed very little respect for her as a married man, concealing her, and the fact he is unavailable, getting Cynthia and Clare's hopes up.  I think this says a lot about Osborne's character.

Lucy, Yes, I think Gaskell is trying to show in order to maintain these large estate, you must change with the times.  You can not stay stuck in the past, holding on to your sentiments of things.  I think her showing how the Hollingfords are busy repairing and getting their estate ready for the Easter ball, is a way of saying they are more up with the times.  I'm still feeling sad for the squire.  Mrs. Hamley was his rock, his reason for living, he just doesn't seem to want to go on without her.  I fear his days are limited.

On to finish up chapter 23 - 27 today.  My daycare has become a bit high maintenance since I took on a new 6 week old colicy baby, not as much time at naptime to read like it was before she came.  Our temps are going down into -30 below wind chill factor with more snow on the way so this week- end is going to be a snuggle up and read one for me!

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #203 on: January 25, 2014, 04:11:31 PM »
Marcie asks: 'What is Osborne doing at the Gibsons?' I appreciate the answers she got on that. I would like to add that it's a chance for him to get out of the house. The falling out between father and son leaves Osborne feeling very unwelcome. His heart is with Aimee, 'the little wife who was passing her lonely days in farmhouse lodgings in Alsace'. I regret that we aren't given a chance to read the eight sonnets that Osborne has composed about Aimee.

This raises an interesting point for me. Osborne's ambition is to become a famous poet. If the sonnets make Aimee famous, like Wordsworth's [Lucy[/i], why then perhaps his father will take to her and allow his son to bring his wife home. It's the literary allusion that fascinates me. Wordsworth himself, after finishing at Cambridge, travelled in France; engaged in a love affair with Annette, who bore him a daughter.

Gaskell has an allusion for every occasion. Some seem dubious. Like the one that comes with the excitement of the charity ball, 'a very allowable and favourite piece of dissipation to all the kindly old maids who thronged the country towns of England', who came to watch 'a younger generation dance on 'regardless of their doom'.

Now that line is taken from Grays lovely poem, A Distant Prospect of Eton College with its melancholy theme.

She does the same thing to Clare. What can one make of this. At the beginning of Chapter 24, we read that, 'Mrs Gibson really gave them a welcome (to her dinner party) and cordiality in a hostess is a very becoming mantle for any other deficiencies there may be. Now, of course, I don't think of Clare being perfect, but this insinuation is really too much. But then all her characters are flawed, with the exception of Molly and Roger. I must include the Squire, overwhelmed by sorrow and anger, with only his horse to hear his laments. His wondeful trees offered as collateral for a loan by his son. A son who is looking around for a way to earn a living and dismissing a career in the church....'to be compelled to write sermons whether one had anything to say or not...' Spoken like a true poet?

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #204 on: January 26, 2014, 11:50:04 AM »
-I'm beginning to think we are being a bit hard on Osborne.  Can we blame him for the way he's been brought up?  Never has he had to consider a profession - or any other way to earn a living - for himself - let alone his new wife.  He's always planned on living in Hamley Hall and still thinks it's an option.

Did I read somewhere in these chapters that one of the reasons he's spending so much money is because he wants Aimee to be comfortable in preparation for her life as mistress of Hamley Hall someday?  I've searched but cannot find this passage.

While searching, I did reread Osborne's thoughts on his future as he begins to realize he will have to do something to earn his way.  Weren't you surprised at the number of options opened to him? Mrs. Gaskell seems to really enjoy ticking off these options...the bar,the army, the clergy - funny, funny comment on sermons.  He finds none of these acceptable. :D

Which is it - Hamley Hall or Australia, Osborne?  What is Roger's advice to his elder brother?

Little one is fortunate to have you, Bella - a grandchild?



JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #205 on: January 26, 2014, 11:59:46 AM »
Quote
'a very allowable and favourite piece of dissipation to all the kindly old maids who thronged the country towns of England', who came to watch 'a younger generation dance on 'regardless of their doom'.

Good catch, Jonathan I become more and more impressed with Mrs. Gaskell's knowledge of language and literature.  And yours!  Did you recognize Gray's poem...or do you have a footnote?

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #206 on: January 26, 2014, 05:55:11 PM »
Are we being a bit hard on Osborne? Good observation, JoanP. Or are we being manipulated by the author?  Just look how uncharitable she is with with sundry characters at the Charity Ball. And one in particular. What a chapter!

Osborne's spending is cleared up in Chapter 27, Father and Sons:

[b'Aimee lived solitary in the little cottage near Winchester in which Osborne  had installed her when she first came to England as his wife, and the dainty furnishinging of which he had run himself so deeply into debt. For Osborne consulted his own fastidious taste in his purchases rather than her simple childlike wishes  and wants....'[/b]

I was put on to the Gray poem by a footnote. It was the kind of poem that many people memorized. An allusion to it must have been a cultural thing. It certainly seems faus pas at the hilarious Charity Ball. I'm amused at the use of French phrases describing the prejudiced Squire. Like mauvaise honte. What does that mean. I can't find my French dictionary.
And now she has become his 'comforter.'

In an earlier chapter I got the impression that she was living in France, in Alsace.

What a charming romance. They met in Hyde Park. In a way it was helping a maiden in distress. And the 'one touch of kindness', on Osborne's part, 'set the fountain gushing', and 'Aimee and Osborne naturally fell into an ideal state of love.'

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #207 on: January 26, 2014, 06:35:28 PM »
 
I'm convinced that Mrs. Gaskell had a good working knowledge of the French language from the context in which  she uses French idioms,, Jonathan.  In my other life, I was a French teacher. :D
 
The word "mauvais" = "bad"; "honte"="shame."  In this context, " mauvais honte"= "embarrassment."

Quote
"It had never been the squire's custom to encourage his boys to invite their friends to the Hall. Perhaps this, too, was owing to his mauvaise honte, and also to an exaggerated consciousness of the deficiencies of his establishment as compared with what he imagined these lads were accustomed to at home."

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #208 on: January 26, 2014, 06:38:18 PM »
Hmmm....Once again, a big event is taking place, and once again Gaskell has down played it, to almost boring and non eventful.  Here I was so looking forward to the Easter ball, as was everyone, anticipating the Duchess Menteith in her fine clothes, and excited to see the famous Menteith diamonds, and yet, the Towers party with the Duchess, comes in late, nearly midnight, and she is dressed in simple clothes and no jewels!  What's up with that???

pg. 340  "But to-night they were unusually late, and the aristocratic ozone being absent from the atmosphere, there was a flatness about the dancing of all those considered themselves above the plebeian (one of the common people) ranks of the tradespeople."   

No real suitor for Cynthia or Molly to speak of, and Mrs. Gibson sits mostly alone since Mr. Gibson had to leave.  Mr. Preston is ticked off, because he sees Cynthia has not carried his bouquet of flowers to the ball, and has some words with her that seems to put her in a less gay mood, and somewhat somber.  What hold does he have over her and Clare?

pg. 343 "She  (Clare) evidently was rather afraid of Mr. Preston, and wished to keep at peace with him."
pg. 344"and he (Preston) walked off to stand behind Cynthia in the quadrille that was being danced; and Molly saw him making her reply to him__against her will, Molly was sure.  But, somehow, his face and manner implied power over her.  She looked grave, deaf, indifferent, indignant, defiant; but, after a half-whispered speech to Cynthia, at the conclusion of the dance, she evidently threw him an impatient consent to what he was asking, for he walked off with a disagreeable smile of satisfaction on his handsome face."


Why is Clare so bent on not allowing Molly to have anything to do with Lady Harriet?

pg. 346 "Lady Harriet's speaking at all to Molly had become to Mrs. Gibson almost like shaking a red rag at a bull; it was the one thing sure to put her out of temper."

pg. 348  "Molly, I cannot have you speaking to Lady Harriet," said Mrs. Gibson as soon as she was left alone with her stepdaughter.  "You would never have known her at all if it had not been for me, and don't be always putting yourself into our conversation."  "But I must speak if she asks me questions," pleaded Molly. (Clare) "If there is one thing I hate more than another, it is the trying to make out an intimacy with great people." Molly felt innocent enough, so she offered no justification of herself, and made no reply.

And then there is Clare realizing that Molly may just be a bit more interesting and intelligent than her Cynthia, when Lord Hollingford, compliments Molly to Mr. Gibson: 

pg. 252 "What a charming little lady that your daughter of your is!  Most girls her age are so difficult to talk to; but she is intelligent and full of interest in all sorts of sensible things; well read, too__she was up in Le Regne Animal__and very pretty!"
Mrs. Gibson's thoughts wandered into futurity.  She only wished that the happy chance had fallen to Cynthia's instead of Molly's lot.  It was a pity that Cynthia preferred making millinery to reading; but perhaps that could be rectified. 


The next morning Clare sees Cynthia reading a newspaper, and says,  "Cynthia! can't you take up a book and improve yourself?"   This cracked me up, it's like if she wishes it, it will happen.   :D

One little crumb Gaskell has dropped at the ball is this: 

Miss Piper is scanning the room of who's who, and says to Phoebe, 

"And there is Coxe the butcher and his wife!  Why, all Coreham seems to be here!  And how Mrs. Coxe can afford such a gown I can't make out for one, for I know Coxe had some difficulty in paying for the last sheep he bought of my brother."

An indication, I suspect that their son Coxe has become successful, and probably has bought this gown for his mother possibly???  Or is this my foolish, romantic hope he is going to return for Molly?

Ciao for now~


“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #209 on: January 26, 2014, 07:22:58 PM »
Jonathon,
Quote
"In an earlier chapter I got the impression that she was living in France, in Alsace."

She was, but got dismissed when the mistress found out about her relationship with Osborne, so now he has her living in Winchester.

pg. 359 " It will be a month next Monday since I left her," said Osborne, laying down his papers and gazing into the fire, as if by so doing he could call up her image.  "In her letter this morning she bids me give you such a pretty message.  It won't bear translating into English; you must read it for yourself," continued he, pointing out a line or two in a letter he drew out of his pocket.

Roger suspect that one or two of the words were wrongly spelt; but their purport was so gentle and loving, and had such a touch of simple, respectful gratitude in them, that he could not help being drawn afresh to the little unseen sister-in-law, whose acquaintance Osborne had made by helping her to look for some missing article of the children's, whom she was taking for their daily walk in Hyde Park.  For Mrs. Osborne Hamley had been nothing more than a French bonne, very pretty, very graceful, and very much tyrannized over by the rough little boys and girls she had in charge.  She was a little orphan girl, who had charmed the heads of travelling English family, as she brought madame some articles of lingerie at an hotel; and she had been hastily engaged by them as bonne to their children, partly as a pet and play-thing herself, partly because it would be so good for the children to learn French from a native (of Alsace!).  By and by her mistress ceased to take any particular notice of Aimee in the bustle of London and London gaiety; but though feelings more and more forlorn in a strange land every day, the French girl strove hard to do her duty.  One touch of kindness, however, was enough to set the fountain gushing; and she and Osborne naturally fell into an ideal state of love, to be rudely disturbed by the indignation of the mother, when accident discovered to her the attachment existing between her children's bonne and a young man of an entirely different class.  Aimee answered truly to all her mistress's questions; but no wordly wisdom, nor any lesson to be learnt from another's experience, could in the least disturb her entire faith in her lover.  Perhaps Mrs. Townsend did no more than her duty in immediately sending Aimee back to Metz, where she had first met with her, and where such relations as remained to the girl might be supposed to be residing.  But, altogether, she knew so little of the kind of people or life to which she was consigining her deposed protegee that Osborne, after listening with impatient indignation to the lecture which Mrs. Townsend gave him when he insisted on seeing her in order to learn what had become of his love, that the young man set off straight for Metz in hot haste, and did not let the grass grow under his feet until he had made Aimee his wife.  All this had occurred previous autumn, and Roger did not know of the step his brother had taken until it was irrevocable.  

pg. 360 "Aimee lived solitary in the little cottage near Winchester in which Osborne had installed her when she first came to England, an his wife.........He had chosen a southern county as being far removed from those midland shires where the name of Hamley of Hamley was well and widely known; for he did not wish to assume only for a time a name which was not justly and legally her own.

If she ever wished to go to the chateau__that was his home__and to be introduced to his family, Aimee never hinted a word of it to him.  Only she did yearn, and she did plead, for a little more of her husband's company; and the good reasons which had convinced her of the necessity of his being so much away when he was present to urge them, failed in their efficacy when she tried to reproduce them to herself in his absence.


I just feel Osborne is being very selfish, if he loved her as much as she loves him, he would not leave her all alone.  He could write collect his poems and give them to Roger for publishing, living with Aimee.  He is living the life of comfort, while she waits, and pleads for him.  I don't think that is being too hard on him.  Yes, he was raised spoiled, but he is not ignorant.  He knows his options, yet he says none of them will be acceptable.  I feel so very sorry for this sweet, young, innocent girl.

Ciao for now~

JoanP.,  I own my in home daycare, I do my grandchildren for not charge, while I care for four other paying families.  My one mother had a baby in November, and wanted to return to her work early, so I have had her baby since 4 weeks old, with colic.  I keep telling myself, NO MORE infants!
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #210 on: January 27, 2014, 05:18:38 PM »
'an exaggerated consciousness of the deficiencies of his establishment'

Of course. Thanks JoanP. As proud as he is of his heritage, the old squire doesn't really belong to the world of those schooled at the classy schools of England, like Eton and Cambridge. His misery, it almost seems, exceeds that of Job and King Lear. His hatred of the French is still a carryover from the events of years ago, when Napolean kept England at war for so many years. But then England and France were enemies off and on for centuries. Remember the One Hundred Years' War of centuries ago?

Bellamarie, I love your attention to detail. Why didn't the duchess wear her diamonds to the ball? I believe she saved those for court appearances. For the Charity Ball she would just like to look young. There is a sadness about many incidents at the ball. With everybody aware of their place in society.

And then there is Aimee, living in Winchester, with her husband living in misery in Hamley. A heartbreaking romance, isn't it? What did you think of Mrs Townshend's interference. For Aimee there was advice, based on her own 'experience' and 'worldly wisdom'. For Osborne, Mrs T had a 'lecture'. The lovers declined...and got married. Will they ever be happy. Can yous see Aimee as the lady of Hamley?

What can we make of the information that Aimee was brought to England by the Townshends...'hastily engaged by them as bonne to their children, partly as pet and plaything herself....' For whom?

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #211 on: January 27, 2014, 06:55:32 PM »
Quote
 "Can yous see Aimee as the lady of Hamley?"
Good question, Jonathan.  Do you think that's where the story is going?  (In the back of my mind, I see Miss Molly in that role - but we have half the book with many twists and turns before us.)

I keep reminding self that Mrs. Gaskell is living and writing at a time of great change in England. Does she stand with the conservative Tories...or the liberal Whigs looking for change?  Her frequent references to the French and Bonaparte seem to indicate that she believes it is time for change from the old ways.

Lucylibr

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #212 on: January 27, 2014, 11:00:07 PM »
I don't know what Mrs. Gaskell's politics were, but she was an advocate for the poor and she spoke out against the inhumane conditions in factories, the meager salaries, long hours, and dangerous conditions.  In Mary Barton, her first novel, she wrote about labor unions and one character is a street walker. She was tolerant of all religions though married to a Unitarian minister. 

Why does Clare not want Molly speaking to Lady Harriet?  Clare is jealous of any attention anyone gets other than herself or her daughter.  She can't allow anyone to win favor without feeling that it is her personal loss.  When somebody else wins, she loses.  She's a poor sport, if you want to think of this social striving as a sport, one which is taken very seriously by Clare.

The people from the Towers are like the Kardashians. What are they wearing, when will they arrive, who do they converse with?  People can't enjoy the ball until they have made their appearance. People expect them to wear bright and beautiful clothing and Lady Montieth her diamonds, just like many today observe what is worn on the red carpet. Mrs. Gaskell is showing us how society functions. Would you call this a novel of manners?

Osborne cannot leave Hamley Hall and move in with his wife because he needs money, and the only way he can get it is from his father (very little) and his brother Roger who gives him half of his earnings as a fellow.  Osborne is not a man of action; he seems to suffer from apathy and inaction and prefers to maintain the status quo and not upset his father. People like this delay the inevitable, which is what Mrs. Gaskell is doing to maintain the interest of the reader.


bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #213 on: January 28, 2014, 12:03:49 AM »
Lucy,
Quote
"Osborne is not a man of action; he seems to suffer from apathy and inaction and prefers to maintain the status quo and not upset his father.  People like this delay the inevitable, which is what Mrs. Gaskell is doing to maintain the interest of the reader.

I am a bit confused with Osborne's character,  he took immediate action to find Aimee and marry her, as Gaskell said, "no moss grew under his feet."  Yet, he comes home after he has stashed his young orphan, very innocent, wife, in a town where no one would know the name, Hamley of Hamley's Hall, and he dallies around the house acting like he is not married at all.  He knows his father has little to no money left, because of him spending it for the more expensive decorations and furnishings for Aimee's hideout cottage, when she would have been very comfortable and happy with simple things, so why hang around at all, as miserable as it is making everyone? (I ask rhetorically) Yes, I can see he would want to give Aimee nice things, but it was not his money to squander.  He may not want to upset his father, but indeed he has done just that.  He has not maintained the status quo, he has married outside his region, religion and status.  Until the squire dies, I don't see Aimee coming to Hamley Hall.  And if and when the squire does die, can Aimee assume the position of the lady of Hamley Hall, and be acceptable in this very snotty and prejudice town?  I seriously think not. I can almost see Osborne taking what ever inheritance he does get and leaving to live in France with Aimee.  Would he not be there now, if he could afford it?  Did he not come home, only because he was sent for, because his mother was dying?    

The squire senses, Osborne has set his own future in motion, on the notion the squire will die, and he will have his money.  This seems to be what has hurt the squire the most.  So very sad.  Jonathon, I agree, the squire is pretty much taking account of his life now and realizes he does not fit in with the new and changing lifestyles.  He is longing to be with Mrs. Hamley.  The fight is out of him, now that he has lost his wife, his estate's value, his money, his relationship with Osborne, and feels his son is just waiting around for him to die.

Lucy, Yes, the Kardashians are a good comparison to the people of the Towers.  ::)  Sad to admit, I am a Kardashian junkie.  :-[
I also see Clare as the self centered, egotistical character as you.  But....I think there is more to her not wanting Molly too close to Lady Harriet. There seems to be a secret that Clare, Cynthia, Lady Harriet and Preston all have, and Molly is a threat to finding out what is it.  Clare does not want her anywhere near Lady Harriet, because we can all see Harriet just speaks her mind, with no care, and this is really making Clare crazy, as in seeing red as a bull!

JoanP,. Good point, is Gaskell preparing the readers for a change, and taking us into a more liberal, modern time for England?

Gaskell seems to contradict her very self, with almost every character in the book.  A bit confusing, I might say.  No one is who they seem to be.  Just when I think I have a fix on one character, something changes, and blows it all out of perspective.  Where the first part of the book was fun and humorous, this second part has been very sad, frustrating and mysterious.  For a Duchess to dress as a simple waif, coming to a ball, is unthinkable.  She is a Duchess, and has an image to keep up.  This is fodder for gossip, which indeed the townspeople are doing. Ughhh....What was the purpose of the entire lateness to the ball, and the Duchess's attire?  It was so inappropriate and lacking in etiquette. Gaskell has us coming and going.......with no sense or sensibility.  Now, that sure was a Freudian slip of the tongue, as in seeing her much like Jane Austen.   ;)

Mamma Mia I am so confused with these past chapters.  
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #214 on: January 28, 2014, 10:48:00 AM »
Lucy- asks if Mrs. Gaskell has written  "novel of manners."  What an interesting question, Lucy!  Surely not manners to be respected and emulated?  Is Mrs. G presenting them as obsolete...or no longer as relevant as in the past?  I get the feeling that she may be mocking them...as viewed through Cynthia's eyes. Bella, do you think the nobility (the Duchess) might just be tired of dressing up and showing off for the admiration of the little townpeople - just because it has always been expected of them?  

Are you finding Clare less of a threat as the story progresses?  And more of a comic figure?  
Quote
"One thing Mrs. Gibson hates - trying to pretend intimacy with great people."

Of course she would like to see Cynthia make a good match - but how far would she go to assure this?  
What more do we learn about Clare's past history with Mr. Preston from the gossip at the ball? He's the one who worries me still - his obvious obsession with Cynthia.  What Mrs. Gaskell does with his character will determine for me what sort of a novel she has written, Lucy. Will he turn out to be dangerous - or just a disappointed suitor.  Do you see him vying with one of the Hamley boys  for her attention?


JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #215 on: January 28, 2014, 10:54:28 AM »
bDid any of you think it strange that neither of the Hamley boys attended the ball?  But they sent nosegays to the Gibson girls, didn't they?  Which the wore that night. Cynthia's wasn't pleased when she received Mr. Preston's flowers - tore his nosegay apart...and pinned one of its flowers in Molly's hair.  What was that about?  How did you interpret her intent?

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #216 on: January 28, 2014, 10:59:58 AM »
Jonathon,  
Quote
What did you think of Mrs Townshend's interference. For Aimee there was advice, based on her own 'experience' and 'worldly wisdom'. For Osborne, Mrs T had a 'lecture'. The lovers declined...and got married.
 
Quote
Will they ever be happy. Can yous see Aimee as the lady of Hamley?

I would think Mrs. Townsend had a heart to heart with Aimee, trying to convince her this relationship is going to cause her much hurt.  She is drawing from her own wisdom, and experience, to help Aimee see, she knows what she is talking about.  I sense Mrs. Townsend was gentle, and motherly to Aimee, but giving her information she needs to know.  

As for her lecture with Osborne, I can see myself lecturing him as well.  He is older, he has a family, a status and religion that Aimee will not be accepted into.  He is acting very selfish in this case, especially since Aimee has NO ONE, friend or family to turn to, in time of need.  I feel, maybe Mrs. Townsend was appealing to Osborne's maturity, and offering to keep Aimee on as her bonne, provided he end this r elationship.  As Gaskell points out, even Roger did not learn until it was too late, to talk some sense into Osborne.  

The heart wants what the heart wants....yet the heart is not always the best judgement.  In this case it has left Aimee hidden away, all by herself, pleading and waiting for Osborne to come to her.  It has been a month, since he last saw her, imagine a young, orphan girl, married, no income, no job, no one with her, and she is not able to be out and about for fear of being noticed.  This is the very thing, I am certain Mrs. Townsend, was hoping to spare her from.  I am not sure if they will find happiness, but I do sense she will never assume the position of Lady of Hamley Hall.  Personally, I would like to see her gain that position, and acceptance.  Gaskell goes every which way the wind blows in this story, so your guess is as good as mine!

JoanP.,  
Quote
Cynthia's wasn't pleased when she received Mr. Preston's flowers - tore his nosegay apart...and pinned one of its flowers in Molly's hair.

Cynthia actually took flowers from her own bouquet, from the Hamley's nosegay, and put into Molly's hair.  Molly was shocked, because she made the point of how much time they would have taken to arrange such a beautiful bouquet.  Cynthia assumed, Osborne made them, and Molly states, she knows how much Roger likes flowers and sent bouquets to his mother, meaning it is possible Roger is the one who arranged them.  Preston's nosegay came later, and went into the FLAMES!!!  Guess that told us what she thought of that.  Yet, Cynthia gives Molly the untouched bouquet from the Hamleys, and Molly tells her to keep that one, but Cynthia does not want it, she wants Molly to have it.  These nosegays, truly did not impress Cynthia whatsoever, and she could care less for them, regardless who sent them.  She has NO sentiment at all in her.

JoanP., we were posting at the same time.  Good Morning!

I am ready to delve into the next set of chapters....

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

Lucylibr

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #217 on: January 28, 2014, 02:00:12 PM »
Joan: I did think it strange that Roger and Osborne did not attend the ball, but now I think the reason is that they are in mourning.  Wasn't that mentioned briefly earlier?

By novel of manners I mean a novel that depicts the manners of the time, many of which the reader can see are no longer appropriate and are silly and meaningless.  In such a novel manners in society are displayed alongside the characters but with more than passing interest.

I think Preston is dangerous because he knows something about Clare and Cynthia that they do not want revealed to the Gibsons or to the people they are among now.

The duchess doesn't have to dress up because her place in this society is secure; she doesn't need to dress to impress (unlike the Kardashians who have to dress to keep their place in society, I guess. Twitter and Facebook have made the social striving nonstop today.) This Hollingford ball is nothing important to her, nor are the people she meets there worth trying to impress. She has a bigger stage than this, for which her diamonds can be worn to advantage.

In a similar vein, Cynthia doesn't need a nosegay or flowers in her hair to impress. She is the prettiest girl there, and she doesn't want or need to try too hard. She is a kind and helpful person when she wants to be and wants to help Molly feel more attractive and enjoy the ball.

Mrs. Townshend is doing her duty to protect her young "bonne," but by being so severe with the young lovers she pushes them together. Better if she had let Osborne visit from time to time and kept her eye on them. He would have realized the impossibility of the situation and gone away on his own.

JoanK

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #218 on: January 28, 2014, 03:20:05 PM »
We want our characters to be either all bad or all good, and many of Gaskell's characters are neither. That, I think, is why they are confusing.

Interesting that we're not even told who Molly danced with. Again, we are used to Austen's balls, where something of importance always happens. But apparently not here.

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #219 on: January 28, 2014, 03:56:59 PM »
Good point, JoanK.  Do you think we might find that Mr. Preston is not quite as bad as we think he is either?

"Not an unsatisfactory ball upon the whole". Funny comment from Mrs. Gibson, don't you think?  The woman was kvetching the whole time - about Cynthia dancing every dance-with the wrong people.  She must have missed Cynthia's moments with Mr.Preston...she wouldn't have found that "satisfactory,"  I'm sure.

 Bella, of course, Cynthia pinned Osborne's flowers in Molly's hair.  I took that to mean that it was not Osborne she was interested in...  As you pointed out, she threw Mr. Preston's flowers into the FIRE.  How many times have we seen FIRE in Cynthia's eyes at mention of Mr. Preston?  Do you think FIRE will be noteworthy?  

ANNIE

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #220 on: January 28, 2014, 04:31:39 PM »
I love your comparison of the Princess and the Kardashians, Lucy.   My how the world of society and impressions have changed!  Tee hee!  184 years have brought us to such a changed world.  This book was about the 1830's and later, right?  It wasn't published until 1854 or 1864.  So the author was writing about what went on in her world, while she was growing up?

I left a comment in here about Osbourne but it never got to this page.  I thought that the Squire had not trained Osbourne about what went on when one was in charge of their land.  I looked to see if a course on Agriculture was offered at Cambridge in the 1800's and found some interesting things about education at that time.  So far, after reading too long, I found this interesting article about Prince William returning to school at Cambridge, to learn how to manage his
Duchy of Cornwall.  He will focus on agriculture management.
 
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/30/prince-william-student-agriculture-cambridge-duchy-cornwall

Well, I suppose Osborne was born too soon but he sure could have used this type of education.
 
I did find minimum info on when Cambridge started to offer  agriculture classes and I will quote:
"... The Royal Agricultural University was established in 1845 offering courses in agriculture, business, real estate ..."
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #221 on: January 28, 2014, 04:42:38 PM »
Lucy, I get it now... "a novel that depicts the manners of the time, many of which the reader can see are no longer appropriate and are silly and meaningless. Yes, yes,I agree with you.  To write a convincing " novel of manners" you need some characters who see through the nonsense.  Molly is slowly emerging as such a character, I think.  And Cynthia seems to have been born knowing the score.  What can the secret be?  It must be important enough or Cynthia wouldn't have let it upset her so.  Is she protecting her mother from some damaging information he has? Or her father?

Bella, of course you can read ahead as far as you like.  We just ask you not to comment on anything you read that might spoil things for those who are staying with the Discussion Schedule in the heading  - the first post at the top of each page.

Annie - we are posting together.  I need to go read the link you posted.  It 's great to see parallels between then and now...

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #222 on: January 28, 2014, 04:59:41 PM »
'Gaskell seems to contradict her very self, with almost every character in the book.  A bit confusing, I might say.  No one is who they seem to be.  Just when I think I have a fix on one....'

I feel the same way, Bellamarie. I find myself feeling sympathetic with a character, and then they go and let me down. I finding it a great challenge to understand their behavior, or their manner. Do you think it's futile to look for either sense of sensibility in this novel? I do agree that it's a novel of manners, and an excellent one, in the broadest sense of the word. What an hilarious  picture we're getting of all classes interacting in a small town in 19c England.

The great expectation to see the duchess and her glittering diamonds. And the duchess going for the peasant look with her simple dress. That's elegant condescension! Lord Hollingford not wanting to embarrass himself for not knowing how to dance, and being told that a Lord can dance like a bear and still be admired for his grace by the locals! We were promised a depiction of feudal feelings and we're getting it. What a ball!

And the angry Squire selling off his son Osborne's hunting horse. Osborne's favorite activity we're told. How can that be? I've gotten the impression that he is not an outdoors man. He's bookish and shortsighted, we've been told.  There's a delightful mystery around every corner in this book. The secret surrounding Preston is just one of many.

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #223 on: January 28, 2014, 05:07:38 PM »
Can you understand Roger's infatuation with Cynthia? Is it the 'airs and graces' she picked up in France, according to her stepfather Dr Gibson? She seems as bewildered and uncertain as everyone else in this plot.

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #224 on: January 28, 2014, 05:12:33 PM »
I don't want to believe Roger would be attracted by these superficial graces, Jonathan - but is he taken by her beauty - her eyes?  Or is there something else about her, something sad or vulnerable...

Lucylibr

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #225 on: January 28, 2014, 06:12:01 PM »
Roger is just like most young men, captivated by a beautiful young woman and unable to see beyond the superficial. She is a nice young person, and her pleasant, easy manner makes her more appealing.

ANNIE

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #226 on: January 28, 2014, 06:19:35 PM »
As we go further into the book, I think we will be surprised what the author, Gaskel, considers important to tell us and what not.

Jonathan,
I think you are so right about the confusion of the characters.  And, sometimes, I can't remember who is upper or lower class and why they are there.  
For instance, what does Preston hold over Clare and Cynthia?  And shouldn't their fear have been noticed by Molly and her father?  

I must have missed the selling off of Osbourne's favorite hunting horse.  Why would the Squire have done than if we hear about Osbourne walking everywhere he goes.  
No horses in the illustrations except for Dr Gibson's and I think, the Squire's cob.  A "cob" is???  "A cob is a small horse, usually of a stout build, with strong bones, large joints, and steady disposition; it is a body type of horse rather than a specific breed. Historically, in the United Kingdom and, to a lesser extent, the eastern United States, a 'cob' may be a common horse used for everyday riding." Wikipedia partial note on Cobs.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #227 on: January 29, 2014, 09:40:35 AM »
"Sometimes, I can't remember who is upper or lower class... " Annie

Why do you think that is, Annie?  Because the upper class is experiencing the same economic downturn as the lower?  I see the upper class clinging to past status and privilege...and some, like Clare, wishing to climb by marrying off her daughter to one of social status..  Doesn't she she notice the Hamleys' reduced circumstances?  Why does she encourage such a match?

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #228 on: January 29, 2014, 09:58:09 AM »
In considering the title Mrs. Gaskell selected for the novel, and the title for Chapter 27 - Wives and Daughters, and "Fathers and Sons" - I'm wondering if the significance of the titles lies in the fact that the parents are the class-conscious ones, their children not so much any more.  The times they are a-changing?

Clare wants the Hamley status for Cynthia - as wife of the largest land-holder in the county.  (This would be Osborne, the elder son, of course.)
What does the Squire want?  Why does he rage at the perceived slight when Roger Jr.  is invited to lunch with Lord Hollingford, and not himself - or Osborne? We're you surprised at how quickly Roger turned down the invitation?

What is the upcoming election about?  Did you find it interesting that Lord Hollingford is no longer interested in getting re-elected, contrary to what the Squire believes...

Jonathan

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #229 on: January 29, 2014, 02:55:12 PM »
'We will be surprised what the author, Gaskel, considers important to tell us and what not.' So true, Annie. She certainly is a challenge to read. So stimulating. Such fun trying to figure out what she is up to. Her mind is always racing, trying to stay ahead of her imagination. Is it any wonder if occasionally the facts contradict each other?

Spoiler Alert! Can anyone guess which of her characters the author is talking about, who says, much farther along in the book: "I am sure all the wise people I have ever known thought it a virtue to have gloomy prognostics of the future. But you're not in the mood for wisdom or virtue, I see; so I'll go and get ready for dinner, and leave you to your vanities of dress."

Selling Osborne's hunting horse. That sent me back to Chapter22, The Old Squire's Troubles. That is the most moving chapter for me. The old squire is distraught, swimming in an ocean of grief and anger, and pride. His wife has died. His firstborn son has let him down. The debts are mounting. Mauvaise honte disturbs his peace. Selling the horses is an economy measure for the squire, but he does so with 'savage pleasure', denying Osborne the pleasure of 'hunting...of which he was passionately fond.' But we've just been told that 'Osborne was still occupied with his books and his writings when he was at home...he was short-sighted and cared little'...about outdoor acitivities, and too fastidious even to have smelly animals about him.

But Squire Hamley is a tough old bird. He will recover.'His predjudices were immovable, his pride was invincible. He's not upper class. He's better than that, as 'head of the oldest family in three counties.

Something sad or vunnerable about Cynthia? asks JoanP.  Would Roger be attracted by this? It worked for Molly. And Roger found a sister.

But as Lucy points out, Cynthia is the prettiest, most charming young lady in the room. Roger, who is considered ugly is naturally drawn to beauty.

And isn't that the fate of girls. Some make such wonderful sisters. Some are everyone's sweetheart. Our lives are governed, Gaskell suggests somewhere by either doom or character. She leaves the choice to her characters. Of all the eminent women writers of her times, I would choose Elizabeth Gaskell to take to the ball game.

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #230 on: January 29, 2014, 03:56:45 PM »
I like the relationship Roger and Molly have, she gets him, and he gets her.  Molly has the insight, that everyone seems to be selling Roger short.

Jonathon
Quote
"And isn't that the fate of girls. Some make such wonderful sisters. Some are everyone's sweetheart."

Yes!  You are so right about this, I had more boy friends throughout my years in school, who always said I was like having a sister, NO crushes, or inclinations for any of us to see each other on any different level.  So I can relate to Molly, Osborne and Roger.  Unfortunately, that sister relationship puts you in the position of hearing about all the guys crushes and problems with their "sweethearts."  But like myself, Molly will find her prince charming.  (I'm not giving up on Coxe)

Quote
Spoiler Alert! Can anyone guess which of her characters the author is talking about, who says, much farther along in the book: "I am sure all the wise people I have ever known thought it a virtue to have gloomy prognostics of the future. But you're not in the mood for wisdom or virtue, I see; so I'll go and get ready for dinner, and leave you to your vanities of dress."

I'm going to take a stab at this and say it's the squire, speaking to Osborne.  Osborne is so conscious of his dress, and seems very vain.  And it sounds like a wise old man, speaking of his experience of lessons learned in life.

Ciao for now~
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #231 on: January 29, 2014, 05:44:06 PM »
Mmm...Osborne is a good guess, Bella - but since he's taken, I'll guess one of my favorites,  Molly's father, Doctor Gibson, Jonathan.  Tell, me, have you finished the book?  If so, will have to take that into consideration when reading your posts...

I'd forgotten Mr. Coxe, I think Molly has too, as she seems to be exhibiting feelings for Roger as she watches Roger become more involved with Cynthia.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mrs. Gaskell doesn't bring Molly and Roger together before The End.


JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #232 on: January 29, 2014, 06:10:12 PM »
The Squire is outraged when Roger is invited to the Towers with Lord Hollingford, but Roger didn't seem to think it was a big deal...and sent his regrets.  I liked that about Roger - it indicated that he has no desire to take Osborne's place on his father's estate...though he does want to help both Father and brother.

pedln

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #233 on: January 29, 2014, 08:38:30 PM »
Quote
Of all the eminent women writers of her times, I would choose Elizabeth Gaskell to take to the ball game.

Jonathan, because she's your sister?

Who would you take to the ball?

Is Lord Hollingford off limits?  Too upper class.  A widower with two young sons. I'm a little surprised Clare hasn't tried to initiate something there.  But perhaps he's out of reach.

(I'm still here, but behind in my reading)

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #234 on: January 29, 2014, 08:59:30 PM »
JoanP.,
Quote
"I'd forgotten Mr. Coxe, I think Molly has too, as she seems to be exhibiting feelings for Roger as she watches Roger become more involved with Cynthia.  I wouldn't be surprised if Mrs. Gaskell doesn't bring Molly and Roger together before The End.

I've never let Coxe leave my mind, he is the reason for Gibson having to see Molly, more than his little girl, the awakening of her entering young womanhood.  Coxe is the reason Molly had to go to the Hamley's, allowing her to form these wonderful friendships, he is also the reason Gibson decided it's time to remarry.  Coxe is an integral part of the entire story.  Molly has forgotten Coxe, she has NO idea he wrote the letter, and had this love for her, so I suspect Gaskell will bring him back, an accomplished doctor, and Molly will then notice him in his own right, and then learn about the letter.  If Coxe truly loved Molly, he is not going to go away and give up, but he had to go take care of his sick relative.  It shows he is a good guy.  I keep thinking of Mr. Darcey and Elizabeth, the letter of his declaration of love Darcey leaves on the table, was the turning point, that brings the two together. Gaskell has her own style, but I can't help but feel Austen in this story. 

Now, your idea of bringing Molly & Roger together in the end, is a possibility, but that seems too likely.

Roger is a good guy, he wants to please his father and help his brother become successful.  He cares for Molly, because she was so very close, kind, caring and loving to his mother. Gaskell keeps using the word "sister" for the feelings Roger has for Molly.  She could be deflecting us.  Gaskell is all over the place.  AND....she is proving to be a Rubik's cube with this story...just when you think you have it figured out, you realize something is not lined up.  I say this with utmost respect for her, she is keeping her readers alert and guessing.

My guess for the Jonathon's quote was "the squire" saying this to Osborne.  I did think about Gibson saying it to Clare, but then that would indicate they would have some problems in their marriage, because it sounds a bit judgemental and critical, don't you think?

I couldn't bring myself to read ahead.  I love surprises, and mysteries, and I like the anticipation of turning each page, and discussing things as they are happening.  Plus, I would have a different attitude if I knew what already is ahead of the assigned chapters.  So now, I must go read the next three chapters.  I had yet another rough day, with the crying colic baby girl.  I pray she grows out of this soon.

Ciao for now~



 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #235 on: January 29, 2014, 09:11:35 PM »
pedln[/b,
Quote
Is Lord Hollingford off limits?

Now isn't that an idea! He sure was smitten with Molly at the ball, and had nothing but praise and compliments for her.  He was so very impressed with Molly's intellectual mind, and her informed knowledge of so many books, and the such.  She did enjoy him as well. But isn't he a bit too old for Molly? Hmmm.....I'm not sure I am ready to give up on Coxe just yet.  I am a hopeless romantic.  :-[

 
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

JoanP

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #236 on: January 30, 2014, 10:57:15 AM »
Molly does seem to be the central character in the book, doesn't she?  Involved with every character, one way or another.  Lord Hollingford, his sister, Lady Harriet, the Hamleys - everyone  finds her delightful.  I've forgotten what Mr. Preston thought of her.  Probably nothing.

The chapter titles were a bit puzzling to me...who are the RIVALY in chapter 28?  Roger and Osborne?    Mr. Preston and Osborne? Not Molly and Cynthia?.. But who?  Why did Mrs. G chose "Rivaly" for this chapter?

ANNIE

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #237 on: January 30, 2014, 12:50:23 PM »
As you, JoanP, I couldn't find any reason for the title of "Rivalry" either.  
She might have thought of using that wonderful word "Alnaschar".  It maybe could fit and it has two meanings which would give the characters different reasons for the actions and thoughts.  It means:

Answer
Alnaschar refers to someone who dreams of the wealth or someone who gets wealth from the sale of his glassware. This term can also mean a beggar in the Arabian Nights who destroys his livelihood by indulging in visions of riches and grandeur.
Can't decide what the author meant when she used this word.  Anyone else want to take a shot??
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

ANNIE

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #238 on: January 30, 2014, 01:33:34 PM »
Earlier this week, someone asked what Squire Hamley needed to improve his management.  I know!!  He needs Tom from "Downton Abbey"  Well, maybe, Roger would do a better job than Osborne.  And didn't we read that Roger was more interested in the care of Hamley Estate and rode with his father as the father traveled around the property? 
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

JoanK

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Re: Wives and Daughters by Elizabeth Gaskell ~January Book Club Online
« Reply #239 on: January 30, 2014, 03:05:01 PM »
I was thinking of Downton Abbey too, when we were talking about how unfit Osborne would be to run the estate. 100 years before the Downton series when "Wives" takes place, I'm guessing land could still support an upper class life style if money is managed carefully, but we've already seen what a poor money manager Osborne is.

" I keep thinking of Mr. Darcey and Elizabeth, the letter of his declaration of love Darcey leaves on the table, was the turning point, that brings the two together." Are you talking about Anne and Captain Wentworth in Persuasion?