Author Topic: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant  (Read 351590 times)

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #240 on: June 14, 2009, 04:49:23 PM »

"I want to know what were the steps by which
man passed from barbarism to civilization (Voltaire)"

   



What are our origins?
Where are we now?
Where are we headed?
Share your thoughts with us!
   Volume Five (The Renaissance)
       
"Four elements constitute Civilization -- economic provision, political organization, moral traditions, and the pursuit of knowledge and the arts. "
 
"I shall proceed as rapidly as time and circumstances will permit, hoping that a few of my contemporaries will care to grow old with me while learning. "
       
"These volumes may help some of our children to understand and enjoy the infinite riches of their inheritance."
       
"Civilization begins where chaos and insecurity ends."



SAVONAROLA AND THE REPUBLIC

The Prophet
The Statesman
Literature: The Martyr
Architecture and Sculpture: The Republic and the Medici
Art Under the Revolution

In this volume the  term "Renaissance" refers only to Italy. Will Durant studies the growth of industry, the rise of banking families like the Medici, the conflicts of labor and capital and considers the reasons why Italy was the first nation, and Florence the first city in Italy, to feel the awakening of the modern mind. He follows the cultural flowering from Florence to Milan, Mantua, Ferrata, Verona and Venice, Padua and Parma, Bologna, Rimini, Urbino, Perugia, Siena, and Naples. 

In each city of Italy we witness a colorful pageant of princes, queeens, dukes, or doges -- of poets, historians, scientists, and philosophers -- of painters, sculptors, engravers, illuminators, potters, and architects -- of industry, education, manners, morals, crime, and dress -- of women and love and marriage -- of epidemics, famines, earthquakes, and death.

Dr. Durant draws vivid vignettes -- of Petrarch, Boccaccio, Cosimo de' Medici, Fra Angelico, Donatello, Beatrice and Isabella d'Este, Leonardo da Vinci, Piero della Francesca, Signorelli, Perugino, Giovanni Bellini, Giorgione, Aldus Manutius, Correggio, Alexander VI, Caesar and Lucrezia Borgia, Julius II, Leo X, Raphael, and Michelangelo.

The Renaissance, by recalling classic culture, ended the thousand year rule of the Oriental mind in Europe.


This volume, then, is about YOU. Join our group daily and listen to what Durant and the rest of us are saying. Better yet, share with us your opinions.

Discussion Leader: robby




Ambrogio Calepini gave his name to the early English dictionaries (Calepins). and
predated by a couple of hundred years the later lexicographers extolled here by the
Oxford Dictionary -

http://www.askoxford.com/worldofwords/oed/legendarylexicographers/?view=uk

Wikipedia has a fine picture of a bust of this learned Augustinian monk 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrogio_Calepino



There being scant interest here, I will move on rapidly to Ferrante.

Alfonso left his kingdom to his putative son Ferdinand.

 Ferrante, as his people called him, was of dubious parentage.  His mother was Margaret of Hijar, who had other lovers besides the King.  Pontano, Ferrante's secretary, affirmed that the father was a Valencian marrano - i.e. a Christianized Spanish Jew.  Valla was his tutor.

 Ferrante was not known for sexual profligacy but he had most of the vices that can come from a passionate nature untamed by a firm moral code and aroused by apparently unreasonable hostility.  Pope Calixtus III legitimated his birth but refused to recognize him as king.  He declared the Aragonese line in Naples extinct and claimed the Kingdom as a fief of the Church.  Rene of Anjou made another attempt to regain the throne bequeathed him by Joanna II.

 While he landed forces on the Neapolitan coast, the feudal barons rose in revolt against the house of Aragon and allied themselves with the foreign foes of the King.  Ferrante confronted these simultaneous challenges with angry courage, overcame them, and revenged himself with somber ferocity.  One by one he lured his enemies with pretended reconcilization, gave them excellent dinners, killed some of them after dessert, imprisoned others, let several starve to death in his dungeons, kept some of them in cages for his occasional delectation and, when they died, had them embalmed and dressed in their favorite costimes and preserved them as mummies in his museum.

 These stories, however, may be 'war atrocities' manufactured by historians in a hostile camp.  It was this king who dealt so fairly with Lorenzo de Medici in 1479.  Revolution nearly upset him in 1485 but he recovered his footing, completed a long reign of thirty six years and died amid general rejoicing.  The rest of the stor4y of Naples belongs to the collapse of Italy.


 Do you folks believe these atrocious tales?

Robby

Gumtree

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #241 on: June 15, 2009, 04:54:23 AM »
Quote
Do you folks believe these atrocious tales

Well. I doubt I've ever heard of Ferrante before and with only the quotation cited above to go on it's impossible to draw any sensible conclusion. At best, all I can say is that where there's smoke there's fire - so I assume that some of the tale is true if only in minor aspects as stories such as this usually have some of their substance based in fact even though they may be embellished beyond recognition.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #242 on: June 17, 2009, 09:55:34 AM »
Quote
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica Eleventh Edition, one historian described his recreational activities as follows: "Besides hunting, which he practiced regardless of all rights of property, his pleasures were of two kinds: he liked to have his opponents near him, either alive in well-guarded prisons, or dead and embalmed, dressed in the costume which they wore in their lifetime." Fearing no one, he would take great pleasure in conducting his guests on a tour of his prized "museum of mummies".

Perhaps it was his macabre 'museum of mummies' that gave the impression of cruelty. Getting invited to dinner and having to tour an exhibit of the hosts dead enemies all dressed up with no where to go would hardly be conducive to friendly dinner banter.

Quote
He died on January 25, 1494, worn out with anxiety; he was succeeded by his son, Alfonso, Duke of Calabria, who was soon deposed by the invasion of King Charles which his father had so feared. The cause of his death was determined, in 2006, to have been colorectal cancer, by examination of his mummy.

The above quote from Wikipedia. For a man who liked to show off his dead enemies to his guests, the final insult is to have your own mummy yanked out and examined to announce to the world that you were a 'bad ass' in more ways than one.

Emily





Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #243 on: June 17, 2009, 12:45:42 PM »
More about Lorenzo de' Medici from the History of Florence - - -

 In 1479, in the midst of unbearable tension, Sixtus and King Ferrante (Ferdinand) of
Naples declared war on Florence. Lorenzo, knowing that the safety of his city and his
dynasty were at stake, undertook the most hazardous adventure of his colorful career. He
went by sea to Naples, virtually placing his life in the hands of the King. Ferrante was
won over by Lorenzo's charm and his persuasive argument that it would not do for Italy to
be divided or Florence destroyed. Lorenzo returned to Florence with the gift of peace and
was received with great joy.

(Quoted from an article in Answers.com.)

Brian

Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #244 on: July 04, 2009, 11:43:37 PM »
Happy Birthday America

July 4, 2009

As the renaissance winds down in Italy, ships are sailing west to discover America. A brave new world is born as the old one contracts and moans.

Emily

ANNIE

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #245 on: July 05, 2009, 10:56:28 AM »
Are the Durants to be believed here?  or am I misunderstanding.  The two quoted sites are not always correct either.  Oh, well, onward and upward as we come closer and closer to the discovery of America which we celebrated yesterday.  A belated

HAPPY 4TH OF JULY--AMERICA'S  INDEPENDENCE DAY!!!
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #246 on: July 08, 2009, 07:02:43 AM »
I did not post for a while because very few people seemed interested.  Shall we continue Renaissance?

Robby

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #247 on: July 08, 2009, 09:24:34 AM »
I would like to continue, Robby.

This discussion group has been around for a VERY LONG TIME,
and I would hate to see it fizzle out ignominiously.

Brian.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #248 on: July 08, 2009, 09:15:20 PM »
I'm here, reading. Just not doing much talking. I would hate to see the site end, although it's up to you if you have the time and desire to continue.

ALF43

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #249 on: July 09, 2009, 07:20:21 AM »
I am here as well and have always leaned towards this site Robby.
I love the way that you have taken the time to break the periods (eras) down for discussion. 
You lead and we shall follow.l

Andy
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #250 on: July 09, 2009, 06:51:45 PM »
Years ago I likened my job as DL as the steering wheel and the participants as the motor.  If there is no motor moving the vehicle forward, I have no direction in which to steer.  Of course I will continue but we need to be a team.

Robby

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #251 on: July 10, 2009, 07:02:38 AM »
From time to time throughout these years we have gained knowledge by comparing what we are reading in Durant to the present times.  Speaking for myself, I have been struck by the fact that class war or strife seems to have occurred in every single civilization or culture - without exception.  I am interested in your reaction to the subject approached in the following NY Times article.  Do you see a similarity between attitudes toward specific classes now and what was so hundreds and thousands of years ago?  Does this affect only women?  What about wealth vs poverty?  What about those people in this current Recession who used to help out at soup lines and now are in the lines receiving food?  A change, if you will, from one class to another?

Will strife between classes always be with us?

Robby 

Dangerous Resentment
A couple of weeks ago, Bridget Kevane, a professor of Latin American and Latino literature at Montana State University, drove her three kids and two of their friends — two 12-year-old girls, and three younger kids, age 8, 7 and 3 — to a mall near their home in Bozeman. She put the 12-year-olds in charge, and told them not to leave the younger kids alone. She ordered that the 3-year-old remain in her stroller. She told them to call her on their cell phone if they needed her.

And then she drove home for some rest.

About an hour later, she was summoned back to the mall by the police, who charged her with endangering the welfare of her children.

“Be quiet,” she was told, as she scrambled to explain herself, and a policeman threatened, as Kevane describes it in the current issue of Brain, Child: The Magazine for Thinking Mothers, “that if I ‘went crazy’ on him, he would handcuff me right in front of the children and take me away to jail for the night.”

The children were fine — “smiling, eating candy” — or were, at least, until the police decided to make an example of their mom.

The city attorney who took on Kevane’s case decided to do the same thing. She refused to hear of slapping Kevane on the wrist or accepting a guilty plea for anything less than “violating a duty of care,” a child endangerment charge punishable by jail time.

Now, we can debate until we’re blue in the face whether or not Kevane should have left those three young children alone with the 12-year-olds. The pre-teens in question, it seems pretty clear, didn’t have the maturity to be entrusted with the care of younger kids; despite what Kevane calls their solid “experience” babysitting, they ditched their charges in the purse section by the cosmetics counter in Macy’s while they went off to try on some shirts, setting off the whole sorry adventure with law enforcement.

That still doesn’t mean that Kevane’s error in judgment adds up to anything like child endangerment.

The issue I want to take up today, however, is not that of tricky choices, or over- or under-involved parenting, questions that have already been discussed with much gusto elsewhere. What really sent my head spinning after reading Kevane’s story was the degree to which it drove home the fact that our country’s resentment, and even hatred, of well-educated, apparently affluent women, is spiraling out of control.

The prosecutor pursued her child endangerment case ultra-zealously because she “said she believed professors are incapable of seeing the real world around them because their ‘heads are always in a book,’” Kevane writes. “I just think that even individuals with major educations can commit this offense, and they should not be treated differently because they have more money or education,” the prosecutor wrote to Kevane’s lawyer.

Kevane reflects, “I now realize that her pressure — her near obsession with having me plead guilty — had less to do with what I had done and more to do with her perception of me as an outsider who thought she was above the law, who had money to pay her way out of a mistake, who thought she was smarter than the Bozeman attorney because of her ‘major education.’ This perception took hold even though I had never spoken one word to her directly. Nor did I ever speak in court; only my lawyer did. I was visible but silent, and thus unable to shake the image that the prosecutor had created of me: a rich, reckless, highly educated outsider mother who probably left her children all the time in order to read her books.”

This simmering resentment is common and pervasive in our culture right now. The idea that women with a “major education” think they’re better than everyone else, have a great sense of entitlement, feel they deserve special treatment, and are too out of touch with the lives of “normal” women to have a legitimate point of view, is a 21st-century version of the long-held belief that education makes women uppity and leads them to forget their rightful place. It’s precisely the kind of thinking that has fueled Sarah Palin’s unlikely — and continued — ability to pass herself off as the consummately “real” American woman. (And it is what has made it possible for her supporters to discredit other women’s criticism of her as elitist cat fighting.)

The idea that these women really should “be quiet” comes through loud and clear every time. Men, you may or may not have noticed, are virtually never accused of “whining” when they talk or speak out about their lives. When well-educated, affluent men write about other well-educated, affluent men — and isn’t that what most political reporting and commentary is? — they are never said to be limited by the “narrowness” of their scope and experience. Well-educated fathers are not perceived as less real, authentic or decent than less-educated fathers. Even professor-dads, as far as I can tell, don’t have to labor to prove that they’re human.

The idea that women with “major educations” are somehow suspect, the desire to smack them down and tell them “to be quiet” is hardly new. At the end of the 19th century, as increasing numbers of women began for the first time to pursue higher education, a campaign began, waged by prominent doctors, among others, against these new unnatural monsters, whose vital energies were being diverted from their wombs to their brains. In the last quarter of the 20th century, feminists were routinely delegitimized as brainy elitists ignorant of and unconcerned with the plight of ordinary women.

It made no difference how much work groups like the National Organization for Women did on behalf of battered or economically powerless women. It made no difference how much advocacy was done for legislation promoting pay equity (a particularly acute problem for women at the lower end of the economic spectrum) or for affordable child care. The media — then as now — was interested only in more educated, more affluent women, and so it was these women who came to define the women’s movement in the popular imagination. And it was these women, too, who came to be identified with social change, and who came to be despised when that change proved frightening and difficult.

This is why Palin — in her down-home aw-shucks posturing — is the 21st-century face of the backlash against women’s progress. This is why Kevane could be threatened and humiliated in front of her kids, menaced with jail time and ultimately railroaded into cutting a deal with the prosecution, once she realized she’d never be popular enough with local jurors to have a shot at making a successful not-guilty plea in court. (Paradox of paradoxes, as part of her deferred prosecution agreement, she was sentenced to even more education: in the form of a parenting class.)

The hatred of women — in all its archaic, phantasmagoric forms — is still alive and well in our society, and when directed at well-educated women, it’s socially acceptable, too. Think of this for a second the next time you’re inexplicably moved to put an “elite” woman in her place.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #252 on: July 11, 2009, 08:26:04 PM »
Robby, do you have a link to the article? I need to know who wrote the article before I would comment further than the following sentence. I have read what you posted and it seems to have been written by the defendant or her attorney. I have never heard of this unique defense, 'they hate educated women'.

Emily

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #253 on: July 11, 2009, 11:42:33 PM »
Emily - - -This link will help to elucidate the question - - -

http://lyingeyes.blogspot.com/2009/07/is-judith-warner-insane.html

I am not sure that I can get too excited about it, and I don't think it proves or disproves the fact that males can get away with inappropriate behaviour anyway - - -

Brian.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #254 on: July 12, 2009, 12:05:31 PM »
Thank you for the link, Brian.  Yes, it was a blog (we can call it a column) in the NY Times.  All of us must keep in mind that columns, editorials, whatever are opinions and what is stated there may or not be fact.  My point in posting it was due to my noticing over the years with SofC that there was always some sort of class war and asking all of you if you saw constant "wars" between the classes even in our enlightened culture.

Robby

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #255 on: July 12, 2009, 03:37:39 PM »
Thanks Robby - - - I am not too enamoured of Judith Warner's blogs - - - can you tell?

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/12/04/judith_warner/

Brian.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #256 on: July 12, 2009, 07:02:33 PM »
My take: the US is a country that is proud of not having "class" differences. Yet, they are there: just more subtle and less overt. Money and power always tend to get concentrated in a few hands: from what I've read, the difference between the richest few and the rest of us is getting greater, not less.

There are some real differences in power involved, but this shows up mainly in life style. The "upper, upper crust" lives motly behind walls: we occasionally see them coming and going from somewhere, but don't really know much about them. The "new rich" splash their money all over the place: we see them a lot in the media: many of them don't have power, but a LOT of money and THE LIFE STYLE!

I doubt that there will ever be class war in this country: most people are working or middle class andare sort of making it. We do have more access to both government and material goods than most countries. When things get too bad, we do protest, (e.g. the Civil Rights Movement) and there is some change without overthrowing our government. In a dictatorship, the only way to bring about change is a coup.

One pattern we've seen over and over again is that when get bad, a strong, and often benificant leader takes over. He straightens things out, improves the lot of the people, and they happily cede their rights to him. This leads to peace and prosperity for awhile, but sooner or later the following generations of leaders misuse that power for their own ends. So far, that hasn't happened here. We have had strong leaders misuse power (Lincoln suspending the use of habias corpus, John Adams and the Alien and Sedition Act) but there has always been a reaction that restored the rights

I doubt if there will be a class was here in the US. We have all kinds of mdia telling us t

ALF43

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #257 on: July 14, 2009, 08:18:25 AM »
Robby-
Quote
My point in posting it was due to my noticing over the years with SofC that there was always some sort of class war and asking all of you if you saw constant "wars" between the classes even in our enlightened culture.

Joan- I certainly hope that you are right but I fear that the attitudes of intolerance continues to exist.

Some people, for what ever reason,  have this state of mind that certain people's behavior, beliefs or "isms" aren't in conjunction with their own. This is bigotry and will forever exist.    I, myself, have this bigotry toward one particular group of people and truly in my heart pray about it.  I am intolerant of their behavior and what they are allowed to get away with in our country. 
I believe in diversity BUT- I can not tolerate some things.
I want to be proven wrong about them and have looked for ways to open my heart. 
This has not happened.
 Sometimes (and I am not excusing myself by any means) -SOMETIMES- the opposing faction needs to step up to the plate and prove their own worth to others.  Convince others, if you will, that they are akin to the rest of the world, living at their doorstep.
It's a vicious cycle because they believe that their attitudes and opinions are correct and "others' are wrong.

How do you change that in society?  We open our hearts and discuss these things with our youth in hopes that their prefudices are less than our own. 
We open dialogue in an attempt to lessen the harsh opinions. 
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

mabel1015j

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #258 on: July 16, 2009, 01:48:16 PM »
Very interesting article. I agree w/ all of it and yes, Robby, i do believe that classes have always had prejudices and stereotypes about each other and a competition w/ each other, often inflamed by idealogues and the media.

I relate very strongly to the comment about the stereotype of the contemporary women's movement as an example of the mythology that is continually generated. I have been a frequent participant of the movement since the 70's in a variety of ways. 99% of the women that i have come in contact w/ have been middle or lower-class women working to support each other, to change law and society's rigid gender rules, especially those that disadvantaged women. The writer is correct that the media focused on celebrity women, not the 10's of thousands of women who were in consciouness-raising groups or working in battered women's shelters. Many of those notable women were also working on making changes that would provide better lives for all women, as the writer statesd, but were/are portrayed as self-centered, "elitest," arrogant women. (Perhaps the reality shows of "housewives of........." perpetuates that image, altho they are largely only wealthy women, not feminists and we have to question who put those shows on the air?)

The backlash against educated women is highly interesting. What is the fear? It is the same in all group clashes - lose of power, or having to share prestiege, the need of some to control others, and the fear of being manipulated by "lesser" beings, the need to feel superior to someone.  It's true when we look at male/female relationships, at employer/labor relationships, at the mythology of the demon unions, at the European and other cultures' persistence of class traditions/behaviors, at ethnic group conflict, at national/tribal conflict. The inate fear of "the other."

It can be distressing to study history and know that altho individual circumstances sometimes get "better" over the course of history,  the concept of "the evil other" appears to not be able to be overcome.

Of course, as always, it is most distressing when women join the bandwagon of disparaging women who are different from "me" - in whatever way. But we are still talking about the concept of those, even of my larger group,  as being a sub-group that becomes "the other."...................i'm beginning to ramble, i'll stop here........jean

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #259 on: July 16, 2009, 03:23:29 PM »
JEAN: I'm also a long-time participant in the women's movement, and very aware of the negative stereotypes that have always followed te movement, and, indeed, all women. Part of it was simple economics: women for a long time provided a cheap, educated labor force. Other groups that have been kept in the position of being a "cheap labor force" have been "kept in their place" by lack of access to education. But with the mountains of clerical work that arose when  we moved into the information age, there was also a need for masses of educated workers who would work "cheap".

Please excuse my ranting on the subject: my dissertation was on gender segregation in the labor force. That was 20 years ago: at that time, there were not more than a handful of occupations that contained men and women in proportionate numbers. When women entered a male-dominated occupation, the pay, working conditions, and prestige of the occupation tended to fall: men would resist that, not only to protect their jobs, but their working conditions. How much of that has changed?

winsummm

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #260 on: July 18, 2009, 03:19:44 PM »
joan go ahead and rant. it is up to women to do that now and then to keep this issue alive and well. It is alive and well I think. Palin palinpalin  all over the tube still which is she were a he would pobably not be.She is a pretty woman and that is probably why they keep showing her there.  The  moderators haven't much else to talk about. jackson is still there. he tried to be a pretty woman too.  the discussion of the people of the book is really interesting now and relates to the fifteenth centurry art world.  have a look.

thimk

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #261 on: July 19, 2009, 08:49:44 AM »
THE CRISIS IN THE CHURCH
[/b]

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #262 on: July 19, 2009, 08:52:07 AM »
The Papal Schism    1378-1447
[/i][/b]

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #263 on: July 19, 2009, 09:11:21 AM »
Gregory XI had brought the papacy back to Rome but would it stay there?  

The conclave that met to name his successor was composed of sixteen cardinals, only four of whom were Italians.  The municipal authorities petitioned them to choose a Roman, or at least an Italian, and to support the suggestion a crowd of Romans gathered outside the Vatican, threatening to kill all non Italian cardinals unless a Roman were made pope.  The frightened conclave, by a vote of fifteen to one, hastily elected Bartolommeo Prignano, Archibishop of Bari, who took the name of Urban VI.  They then fled in fear of their lives.  But Rome accepted the comnpromise.

Urban VI ruled the city and the Church with impetuous and despotic energy.  He appointed senators and minicipal magistrates and reducd the turbulent capital to obedience and order.  He shocked the cardinals by announcing that he proposed to reform the Church and to begin at the top.

 Two weeks later, preaching publicily in their presence, he condemned the morals of the cardinal s and the higher clergy in unmeasured terms.  He forbade them to accept pensions and ordered that  all business brought to the Curia shold be dispatched without fees or girfts of any kind.  When the cardinals murmured he commanded them to 'cease your foolish chattering.'  When Cardinal Orsini protested the Pope called him a 'blockhead.'  When the Cardinal of Limoges objected Urban rushed at him to strike him.

 Hearing of all this, St. Catherine sent the fiery Pontiff a warning: 'Do what you have to do with moderation with good will and a peacefl heartr for excess destroys rather than uilds up.  For the sake of the cricified Lord keep these hasty movements of your nature a little in check.'

Urban, heedless, announced his intention to appoint enough Italian cardinals to give Italy a mamority in the College.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely?

Robby




Emily

  • Posts: 365
Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #264 on: July 19, 2009, 10:11:36 PM »
Quote
Urban VI ruled the city and the Church with impetuous and despotic energy.  He appointed senators and minicipal magistrates and reducd the turbulent capital to obedience and order

The senators and magistrates sent the rabble to threaten the cardinals if they did not appoint a Roman to be Pope.

Combining the power of both the state and church in the hands of the pope would naturally cause conflict.

A good example of why there should be separation of church and state.

But first more blood must flow........

Emily

Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #265 on: July 19, 2009, 10:44:34 PM »

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

This arose as a quotation by John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton, first Baron Acton
(1834–1902). The historian and moralist, who was otherwise known simply as Lord
Acton, expressed this opinion in a letter to Bishop Mandell Creighton in 1887:

- - - and the rest of the quote reads - - -

Great men are almost always bad men."

Brian.


JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #266 on: July 20, 2009, 03:00:21 PM »
I've read more about this story somewhere, I can't remember where. This is the pope I've heard called "insane". I'm going to reserve judgement. Was he insane, or just infuriated at the corruption he found? Or both?

We'll see what happens when they try to get rid of him!

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #267 on: July 20, 2009, 03:04:34 PM »
EMILY: I agree completely about the importance of the separation of church and state. We Americans have never experienced the sort of things that can happen when they are joined, and readily agree to weakenings of that separation. This is one of many reasons for reading history.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #268 on: July 31, 2009, 09:39:03 PM »
Translated from the Italian.......

Quote
As a consequence of the tumultuous pressure placed upon them by the Romans, the college submitted to nominating an Italian Pope, Urban VI.

The following year the cardinals recanted the election of Urban V1 and elected the anti-Pope Clement VII. The great western schism thus exploded and for 40 years it was impossible to know who was the legitimate Pope. Religious antagonism between Pope and anti-Pope rapidly degenerated into civil war.

The schism became worse when the Italian cardinals elected a third Pope. Christianity faced the spectacle of three Popes who excommunicated each other.

I wonder over this forty year period how many people died in the quest for 'absolute power'.

http://www.montecalvo.net/cenni_di_storia_inglese.htm

Emily



 

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #269 on: August 01, 2009, 09:34:23 PM »
"The Cardinals recanted the election of Urban VI" Some accounts claim that Urban VI had gone insane. In any case, as recounted above, he tried to clean up the corruption in the Church.

This must have been an interesting time, with one Pope in Rome, the other had moved to France. I wonder how Cathwlics not in those two countries decided who to follow.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #270 on: August 10, 2009, 03:40:07 PM »
The election of Urban Vl was an example of Roman mob rule. The election of Clement Vll was a French led response by the full college of cardinals including the Italians who were unhappy with Urban's heavy handed reforms. The French  feared a loss of papal revenue at the very moment France was engaged in war with England. The college declared Urban's election invalid. Clearly,  they did not wish for a schism  but when the new Pope set up shop in Avignon rather than in Rome a rivalry was inevitable.  The European states lined up on both sides. Naples, Spain and Scotland supported Clement and England, Germany,Poland, Hungary and Portugal supported Urban.

The Rival Popes flung excomunicado Bulls at each other and at the allied countries as well. The people of those countries became heretics and blasphemers. The people were doomed. The dead went to hell, baptisms were invalid, and penance was shriven of it's power. Each side declared the sacraments of the other invalid. The people remained in mortal sin. They didn't know it was all a put-on. They thought it real and they were truly doomed. Can you imagine how painful it must have been for the elderly who came to rely so heavily upon this scheme of after- life. Death brought only fear of hell and damnation. Humans invented this evil  stuff  and when it comes to fighting over the spoils they tend to forget that the victims are the simple people who are the heart and soul of the enterprise.  It is the same today. We have not advanced much beyond the Fourteenth Century. The rituals of religious adherence still control our way of living.


Brian

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #271 on: August 10, 2009, 08:38:44 PM »
This might be the time to inject a little irreverent levity into the catastrophic seriousness of the present discussion.

The PowerPoint presentation that follows is my contribution

www.onetruelarry.org/Creation.pps

I fully agree that State and Church should be separated - - - all over the world.

Brian.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #272 on: August 10, 2009, 09:24:27 PM »
Sorry, my computer made a big fuss about opening your file.

But I couldn't agree with you more.

JoanK

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #273 on: August 10, 2009, 09:35:44 PM »
A fascinating (though not easy to read) novel covering this period is "The Dream of Scipio" by Ian Pears. The theme is whether it's possible to live a moral life in an immoral time: it's placed in Avignon in three historical periods of chaos: the Roman empire as the Huns were overcoming it, the period of the schism, when the Black Death was rampant in France, and there was pressure on the French Pope to make the Jews the scapegoats, and the Occupation of the area by the Nazis, when again the Jews were being targetted.

In each period there was a man (linked to each other by an imaginary philosophical treatise that passes from one to the other) struggling with similiar issues of how to be a moral and good person in their time.

Not an easy read, but I recommend it highly. Many of the characters we have (or will) read about in the first two periods appear.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #274 on: August 11, 2009, 02:03:25 AM »
Joan: I'm reminded of Dickens' character "Sidney Carton" who tried to do a moral thing in an immoral period. Similarly,  Cicero, also qualifies as a moral man acting  in an immoral period.  Christ may also qualify for the role. Abe Lincoln also fits the role quite nicely.

As I look back on what I have said thus far, I see that all these moral men died  as a result of their expression of morality.

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #275 on: August 11, 2009, 02:35:08 AM »
Educated women have traditionally taken a hit because they are exposed more than ordinary women. They are less dependent on men than other women and therefore feel more free to participate with men on a more equal basis. That works ok if they don't intrude or exceed the men in conversation for then they are seen as uppity women. The other gals who don't possess the power of education can't wait to slice her up with jealousy. So the educated gal gets it from both sides. In years past, educated gals have  found acceptance in nondisclosure. That's as bad as "Don't ask, don't tell" in the military.

I think all that is changing and for the better. I had three daughters whom I educated for as long as they would continue in school. Early on I encouraged them, again and again,  to contribute in conversations involving men. Take up baseball if necessary but contribute. They thank me for it today but the going was tough in the beginning. They are all doing significant work in their own fields and happy and proud of what they are achieving. Some of their opportunities were due to the woman's movement but the advantage they took of those opportunities was due to their own  expression of power.

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #276 on: August 16, 2009, 02:07:58 PM »
Not that I'm happy about this but women entering combat is an example of doing what used to be a male "occupation."

Robby

Robby

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #277 on: August 16, 2009, 02:25:50 PM »
Continuing "The Papal Schism."

The French cardinals gathered in Anagni and planned revolt.

On August 9, 1378 they issued a manifesto declaring Urban's election invalid as having been made under duress of the Roman mob.  All the Italian cardinals joined them and at Fondi on September 20 the entire College proclaimed Robert of Geneva to be the true pope.  Robert, as Clement VII, took up his residence at Avignon while Urban clung to his pontifical office in Eome.  The Papal Schism so inaugurated was one more result of the rising national state.  In effect it was an attempt by France to retain the vital aid of the papacy in her war with England and in any future  contest with Germany or Italy.

The lead of France was followsed by Naples, Spain, and Scotland but England, Flanders, Germany, Poland, Bohemia, Hungary and Portugal accepted Urban and the Church became the political plaything of the rival camps.  The confusion reached a pitch that aroused the scornful laughter of expanding Islam.  Half the Christian world held the other half to be heretical blasphemous and excommunicate. 

St. Catherine denounced Clement VII as a Judas.  St. Vincent Ferrer applied the same term to Urban VI.  Each side claimed that sacraments administered by priests of the opposite obedience were invalid and that the children so baptized, the penitents so shriven, the dying so anointed, remained in a state of mortal sin, doomed to hell or limbo if death should supervene.  Mutual hatred rose to a fervor equaled only in the bitterest wars.

When many of Urban's newly appointed cardinals plotted to place him in confinement as a dangerous incompetent, he had seven of them arested, tortured, and put to dath.

Robby

Justin

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #278 on: August 16, 2009, 05:07:43 PM »
"Confusion over the split aroused the scornful laughter of expanding Islam.  Half the Christian world held the other half to be heretical, blasphemous, and excommunicate."

It is a little surprising that Durant would give credence to this Islamic response.   The period is 1370 or seven centuries after the formation of Islam by Mohammad. During those centuries the deep rift between Shi'a and Sunni came about resulting in the death of adherents on both sides. The rift and the deaths continue to this modern day and are perhaps the only major road block to peace in Irag. Long after the radical fundamentalists are gone, the Shi'a and Sunni rift will continue. It may from time to time persist without significant violence but it will continue.  At the moment these antagonists are sending suicide bombers against each other all the while a new government is forming by election.

Emily

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Re: Story of Civilization ~ Will & Ariel Durant
« Reply #279 on: August 17, 2009, 10:40:47 PM »
Justin, it's good to see you posting again.

If Islam takes a page from Christianity, they will have 600 more years to fight each other. After 2,000 years Christians seem to have finally buried the hatchet among the different sects.

But according to Kin Hubbard "No one ever forgets where he buried the hatchet".

Emily