Author Topic: Girls of Atomic City by Denise Kiernan Mid-September/October Book Club Online  (Read 46631 times)

JoanP

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The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in!
Everyone is welcome!

 
The Girls of Atomic City                            
by Denise Kiernan
 
Based on first-person interviews with women who served at Oak Ridge, several of them now now in their eighties and nineties, Denise Kiernan  tells the  true story of young women during World War II who worked in a secret city dedicated to making fuel for the first atomic bomb—only they didn’t know that.

At the dawn of the atomic age, the community of Oak Ridge, Tenn., rose up around the secret work taking place there in support of the war effort.  At the heart of those efforts were thousands of women from across the country who did their part to help secure the United States while maintaining a public silence.

 They all knew something big was happening at Oak Ridge, but few could piece together the true nature of their work until the bomb was dropped over Hiroshima, Japan, and the secret was out. The shocking revelation: the residents Chicken Oak Ridge were enriching uranium for the atomic bomb.  They had NO idea!
 
DISCUSSION SCHEDULE:

September 15-21~ Introduction & Revelation, August 1945;
   Chapters 1, 2, 3  (62 pages)

September 22-28 ~ TUBEALLOY, 1938
   Chapters 4,5

Sept. 29- Oct. 5 ~ TUBEALLOY, The Quest for Product
   Chapters 6, TUBEALLOY, The Couriers, Chapter 7

Oct 6-12 ~ TUBEALLOY, (p 151) Security, Censorship, The Press
   Chapters 8, TUBEALLOY, Pumkins, Spies, and Chicken Soup; Chapter 9,
   TUBEALLOY, Combining Efforts in the New Year; Chapter 10
(to pg. 204)
Oct 13-19 ~ TUBEALLOY, (p 205) The Project's Crucial Spring;
   Chapter 11; TUBEALLOY, Hope and the Haberdasher, April-May, 1945; Chapter 12,
   Chapter 13
(to pg. 268)
Oct 20-? Chapter 14, 15, Epilogue


RELEVANT LINKS:
An Interview with Denise Kiernan  about Atomic City girls; Part 2 Interview with Denise Kiernan;
2013 Interview with Celia Klemski; Interview with Kattie Strickland, resident of Oak Ridge in 2005

For Your Consideration
October 20-?

Chapter14 ~ Dawn of a Thousand Suns

1. When the Oak Ridge mission was first disclosed, most of the workers were astonished.  How are their reactions evolving as they process the news more fully?
2. What new uncertainties and life choices did the workers face now?
 
Chapter 15 ~ Life in the New Age

1.  As the details of the bomb’s damage came out, people were horrified.  How did that affect the workers’ final feelings about what they had done?
2.  What changes were made to adapt atomic energy for peaceful purposes?  What legislation was passed to control it?
3.  How were the Black workers who stayed on at Oak Ridge treated?
4.  Lise Meitner was passed over for the Nobel Prize.  Was this fair?  Does Kiernan give an accurate picture of the importance of the women scientists?
5.  What finally happened to the people we’ve been following?

Epilogue
1.  “The challenge in telling the story of the atomic bomb is one of nuance, requiring thought and sensitivity and walking a line between commemoration and celebration.”  Has Kiernan done a good job of this?



DLs:  JoanP, Marcie, PatH,
 





marcie

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Frybabe, good point about the experimental nature of the bomb. No one knew the full effects of it. They had never even tested the second one, which used the implosion method.

Joan, yes we should get to the CEW worker's reactions. What does Kiernan say about the reactions of those we have come to know?  After all of the secrecy surrounding their whereabouts, they heard their own site mentioned specifically in the radio announcement. What happened to the secrecy surrounding their work?

PatH

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It's easy to forget just how uncertain they were about how the bomb would work, and even whether it would work.  Then New Mexico explosion showed them they could get it to explode.  But it was 49 (Plutonium).  The next one was tubealloy (Uranium)  So, different material, and the mechanism for exploding a bomb would have to be different.  The last one was Plutonium again.  They really didn't know ahead of time if ANY of them would work or fail.  And as Frybabe pointed out, they didn't realize just how much destruction the bomb would do.  They certainly didn't have a good notion of the aftereffects of the radioactivity and the materials of the bomb.

marcie

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Those are helpful details, Pat. Thank you.

Frybabe

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My morning news cruise turned up this article about uranium on BBC. It is lengthy, some interesting photos.
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-29661615

marcie

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That's an interesting article, Frybabe. It covers some of the same stuff we're reading about and lots more.

JoanP

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"Marie Curie never fully appreciated the health risks of radiation - this is a woman who is said to have kept a glowing phial of radioactive isotopes beside her bed as a nightlight. Yet she, and many of her colleagues, would die of illnesses related to their exposure."

Thanks for the article, Fry!  Marie Curie and our CEW workers had something in common...though the girls of atomic city didn't know that they were working with radioactive parts.  Maybe they weren't.  Did anyone understand that there was implicit danger involved with handling the materials for this weapon.
I was interested in the puzzled reactions of the girls, when their contributions to the bomb was announced.  Do you think the assembly of each little part was ever explained to them?  I don't.
I'm trying to remember if anyone of the girls was exposed to radiation or in any danger.   We've been reading of isolated accidents, but it seems that there was careful consideration for safety in the plant.  Of course, so much of what was going on was new and unknown...

Did you wonder about the plant in Hanford Washington when reading  War Secretary Stimson's detailed report of the contributions of the plants and labs around the country working on the bomb?  Could it have been anything like the plant in Tennessee?  I'm curious enough to look it up, as soon as I can find some free time!  Think of it, Denise Kiernan!  Another book?

PatH

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Here's a start, JoanP:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanford_Site

I have the feeling it wasn't as big or complicated as Oak Ridge.

Frybabe

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Remember the laundry? The laundry workers had to run a geiger counter (or similar) over the washed clothing and rewash anything that registered. I bet they were not wearing any radiation protection. Did any of the workers even have radiation exposure badges to monitor how much radiation they were getting? I don't recall any mention of it in the book.

PatH

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Kiernan mentions them considering giving exposure badges to the couriers, but they don't seem to have done it.  Radiation health science was truly in its infancy then.  They didn't really have any idea what was a reasonable amount of exposure.

marcie

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It would be interesting to know if anyone has studied the population of workers at the site to find out if they died earlier, or had more instances of cancer, than the general population.

JoanP

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I'd forgotten the laundry!  So there were radioactive materials floating in the plants of Oak Ridge then!  But so far, we've heard nothing of adverse effects on the workers, have we?  Is that to come in the final chapters?

I checked out that link to the Hanford WA plant, Pat.  The photos were interesting.  You're right, it doesn't seem to be the same set-up as we saw in Oak Ridge.  For one thing, there are no women - although I do see a few as payroll clerks in this photo -


bellamarie

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Marcie, maybe these articles may help.  This is a pretty lengthy article which has tables of the outcome of deaths, causes etc., on workers in the four plants in Oak Ridge.  There are many other articles you can Google.

A Mortality Study of Employees of the Nuclear Industry in Oak Ridge, Tennessee
http://www.csm.ornl.gov/~frome/ORMS/RadRes97ORMS.pdf

Here is yet one more lengthy article and I like how it breaks each chemical down and compartmentalizes each plant in Oak Ridge.  PatH., you may be the only one among our group who has the knowledge and patience to break this down in simple layman's terms for us.

This article has some really great pictures of the plants and Oak Ridge in it.

Just one graph showing how the contaminates lasted years later:



Releases of Contaminants from Oak Ridge Facilities and Risks to Public Health final report of the Oak Ridge Health Agreement Steering Pa n e

http://health.state.tn.us/ceds/oakridge/ORHASP.pdf

Since so many workers, and residents left Oak Ridge, after the war ended, I wonder if they kept track of those families and their health.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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I think you just outlined my day for me, Bellamarie.  That first article is pretty heavy going; I'll see if I can make sense of it.  The second is easier reading, though long, and has some great pictures.  It deals with the local populace, not specifically workers.

bellamarie

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Yes, PatH., The first link deals with the employees and the second deals with residents of Oak Ridge from the beginning of the reservation to years later.   I think the colored graph of the different materials is quite interesting.  I like how the report deals with MANY different elements not just radiation, uranium, plutonium.  So interesting, but I just get a bit overwhelmed since science was never my strong subject.  Thanks for any help you can provide.   ;)
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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In the meantime, we've added the last section of the book, though we still have things left to talk about in previous sections.  When the purpose of the Project was made public, the workers' first reaction was amazement.  Now they are chewing it over, and their thinking is more complex.  And the war is over; what now?  What are all the issues churning around in their minds?

bellamarie

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The celebration of learning the bombs have been dropped, Japan has surrendered, the war has come to an end, and family members can be expected to come home, is a jubilant mood for Oak Ridge, as well as all over the country.  But, now they have decisions to make, will they still have their jobs, will they go back to their places, before coming to Oak Ridge, how will their lives change, and yes.....now they begin processing, and dealing with the knowledge of what they were actually doing in those plants. 

Last night, I was watching a tv show, Madame Secretary.  The Secretary of State,(played by Téa Leoni) has just averted a war with Iran. Her young son asks his father if we were going to war.  The father says, not if your mother can avoid it.  The young son questioned his father who flew fighter jets in desert storm, if he ever killed anyone.  The father said, yes.  The son asked how did you feel when you had to kill people, and do you think about it today?  The father responded, (paraphrasing) "I was conditioned to do my job during my training, I spotted a target, released the bombs, and did what I was told to do.  I didn't have time to think about how I felt about it, but yes, now I think about it all the time."  They sat and looked at each other, and the young son got up, hugged his Dad, and said good-night.  The father, just sat thinking.

I share this because while watching this, it made me think of our book.  We are coming to the last chapters of the book.  D.K. interviewed these ladies so many years later.  The celebrations have wore off, the reality has set in, and now I suppose the women/workers all sat much like this father, and contemplated everything days, weeks, months and years later.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

marcie

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Thanks for finding that article on mortality rates, Bellamarie. I'll try to read it later today.

Pat, the workers were amazed to hear Oak Ridge mentioned by name. Most seemed to have no idea what they were  helping to create. Some are now thinking back over their work and over conversations they'd heard and seeing everything in a new light. Others still have no idea what exactly they were doing. Some seem ready to go back home and others have found a  home there and would like to stay.

ursamajor

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My husband, a physicist, read the article and remarked that it was written by statisticians for statiisticians.  The bottom line is that, with the exception of lung cancer, the cancer rates are below that of the general population.  This can probably be partially explained by the fact that everyone who applied for a job received a physical; those not in good shape were not hired.

This study was done some time ago.  I wonder if current results would be different as for the majority of people cancer develops late in life.  I know that it is recognized that there was exposure to radiation in some areas and anyone who worked in those areas for some time and developed certain cancers is entitled to compensation of $150,000 almost automatically.  I have no idea how many have been compensated but I know it is not uncommon.

Thank you for citing this, Bellamarie.


PatH

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Ursamajor, your husband just saved me.  I was just about to tackle reading that article carefully.  That was the same impression I got from skimming it, but you can't really skim something like that--too likely to get it wrong.

JoanP

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I can't imagine the chaos in Oak Ridge when the role of CEW was announced in the bombing.  Kiernan describes "their exuberance, the relief and the pride."   But the inhabitants and workers aren't getting any information from the outside - or from the Oak Ridge Journal, which publishes only once a week...and even then, details are censored. 

Once the "Fat Man," the implosion bomb was used in Nagasaki..I guess I was surprised to read that there was yet another bomb ready to go if Hirohito was not convinced and Japan would concede defeat. Kiernan writes it was  ready for delivery August 24, but  Japan surrendered August 14 - five days after Nagasaki.

 If I ever knew about this third bomb, I forgot about it.  What happened to it?


JoanP

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Ursa...these last chapters are exciting - where YOU came onto the scene in Oak Ridge. Just finished reading the chapter in which Oak Ridge voted against incorporation at a town meeting in 1953.  Were you there yet?  Did you vote?  By 19557 Kiernan writes that Oak  Ridge had incorporated and became a "fully independent normal town."  That must have made you happy! ;D

Were you aware of work-related health problems  among friends and acquaintances in Oak Ridge in all those years you've lived there?

ANNIE

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Has anyone here been watching "Manhattan" on WGN? They are up to the final chapter in the series, and now I understand that there will be a season 2.  Yes, I think the series is historical fiction but we might learn something more from its presentation of the history. I really feel that the best info is coming from this discussion since we have people who know so much more about the bomb and the emotions of the people at that time.  (Yes, I do remember the surrender of Japan and going with neighbors to downtown Indianapolis where soldiers and sailors were dancing in the fountain around the Circle (center of city)).   I have not watched "Manhattan" as I didn't know the series was available .  WGN will be starting the 13 shows over on Saturday and I have a friend who has been watching.  She now has our book and is also reading it.  There will be Season 2 as they aren't done with all that happened yet.   Last night, I tried to DVR the whole season but they were only letting one do the last 7 shows.  My friend has DVR'd the whole thing so I might just watch the first 6 shows at her home.  I am interested in her reaction to the non-fiction book we are reading.  She already has a sour opinion of General Groves.  I had a book held at the library about him(portraying him as hero) but may have lost to time they will hold it. Will check today.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

bellamarie

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Ursa, Tell you husband thank for looking at the articles.  I am not a scientist, nor physicist but I thought there were some very interesting results on the charts.  It surely does shows people living during, and after the creation of the reservation, was indeed affected by many different chemicals.  There were about 70,000 plus populated in Oak Ridge at the time of the war and when it ended, and after the war it appears only around 20,000 plus remained living there.  I just wonder if they were even able to include those who moved away, not to mention their offsprings in the results.  The graph shows these chemicals lasted as long as 20 years beyond the end of the war.

 PatH., I don't blame you for not wanting to tackle this, although you might find it interesting in your spare time.  I did spend awhile on it, and could decipher some interesting results.  One conclusion, is I would not have felt comfortable swimming in, or drinking the water, nor would I have been comfortable with any products grown in the soil, or eating animal meat, especially fish, or drinking the milk from goats and cows, considering they would have drank from the water, and eaten grass, grains etc., that grew in the soil.  I probably would have been one of those who chose to move away from any of these sites.  The movie Erin Brockovich comes to mind, after reading the articles and seeing the test results.

“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

bellamarie

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I happened to stumble across this article written by Jay Searcy, a young man who grew up in the "City Behind The Fence". He lived in Oak Ridge during the war, both his parents worked in the plants.  His article was posted in The Philadelphia Inquirer on August 9, 1992.

A very informative read.

http://www.mphpa.org/classic/OR/OR_Story_1.htm

This site has fantastic pictures!

http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/06/the-secret-city/100326/
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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Bellamarie, the second health article you found, "Releases of Contamination from Oak Ridge Facilities and Risks to Public Health" is easy enough reading, just very long.  I didn't finish the methodology section yet, but they summarize their conclusions, and your impression is correct.  The main risks were from drinking contaminated milk from backyard cows, which would affect children, and from eating a lot of contaminated fish from several creeks, which would affect fetuses.

Someone who isn't interested in reading the article would still enjoy scrolling down to see the great pictures of Oak Ridge.

PatH

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Two more finds from Bellamarie.  The first is charming and lighthearted; what it was like for a ten year old growing up in Oak Ridge.  He had a ball.  There's a paragraph of interest in our discussion about health hazards:

Quote
(In 1961, after working for most of 15 years in the "hottest" building at Y-12, mother was forced to transfer to a "clean" building because of her ''high body count." For months she was required to leave urine and feces samples on our front porch for lab pickups. Doctors were still getting a radioactive reading on her at her retirement in 1971 and as recently as five years ago when she was last checked. She is considered something of a phenomenon by researchers from the Department of Energy, and they have asked that she donate her body for research. In the spirit of her wartime youth, she signed the pledge.)

You notice that as of the time of writing, 1993, she was still alive.

marcie

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How interesting that the woman is a phenomenon with radioactive readings but no apparent side effects.

Annie, I've been watching the Manhattan TV series. It's very interesting with great actors. There are some video clips at http://wgnamerica.com/shows/manhattan

mabel1015j

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I've been thinking how the women must have felt after hearing about the bombs and i don't think i can put myself in their place. From 2014, i think i would be appalled, but in 1945, i may be thinking "hallelujah! I helped win the war!" There was so much propaganda against the Japanese, i may have had trouble thinking of them as thousands of human beings had been killed. I wouldn't know the lingering horrible effects, so i think i would have been pleased to be a part of fighting the enemy. But i don't know.

Jean

bellamarie

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Yes, PatH.,  The young man's mother was still alive in 1993, and her urine was still testing positive for radiation.  Makes one wonder how does radiation affect one's health.  I know the article that covers health and risks, lists many different types of cancer and other health issues, not necessarily life threatening.

Jean, I agree, I think the first initial reaction back in 1945, would be jubilation, and rightfully so.  It didn't take them long though to start processing what it really meant as far as what part they played in making the bomb.  I think the reality for all workers would have been seeing pictures of the thousands of burnt bodies lying in the burnt surfaces in Japan.  It truly sounds like these people kept much inside them for as long as they lived.  Many articles I have read, and reviews at Amazon from relatives of those who worked at the plants say their loved ones never would talk about it.  I suspect their silence was, part keeping the contract of secrecy, and part not wanting to talk at all about how they personally felt, in helping make the bomb that killed thousands, and they saw it never came to reality, that the chemicals came to be used in the ways in the future, they thought would be helpful to our environment and economy.   
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden

PatH

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There's a good example of the mixed feelings in the last chapter.  Dot has taken a job as a docent in Oak Ridge's science museum.  She enjoys it at first.

"Veterans and civilians alike were proud of their contribution to World War II.  Why shouldn't she be?

But times had changed.  She was never quite sure what to say when asked how she 'felt' about her work.
..........
...one woman in particular strode up to Dot, glaring, and asked, 'Aren't you ashamed you helped build a bomb that killed all those people?'

The truth was, Dot did have conflicting feelings.  There was sadness at the loss of life, yes, but that wasn't the only thing she felt.  They had all been so happy, so thrilled, when the war ended.  Didn't any of these people remember that?  And yes, Oak Ridgers felt horrible when they saw the pictures of the aftermath in Japan.  Relief.  Fear.  Joy.  Sadness.  Decades later, how could she explain this to someone who had no experience with the Project, someone who hadn't lived through the war, let alone lived at Oak Ridge?

Dot knew the woman wanted a simple answer, so she gave her one.

'Well,' she said, 'they killed my brother.''

bluebird24

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Found this
http://www.npr.org/2013/03/03/172908135/secretly-working-to-win-the-war-in-atomic-city

I have a question. How did the people in Japan feel?



JoanP

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Denise Kiernan describes the tightrope nature of emotions following the bombing. The period of celebration - the war was over at last and then the details of the extent of the damage the Gadget had caused.

Good find, bluebird - and good question too.  It's interesting to hear the girls' reaction in the days following the bomb drops.  It strikes me to read how much time actually elapsed between the bombing, the jubilation -  and the time the devastation was made known. How much time, would you say? No one could have been prepared for that.

Quote
"How did the people of Japan feel?"
Relief that the war was finally over? Resentment that the bombs had been deployed? Were they even asked, or interviewed?  I imagine they were tired of the war waged by the Emperor -

PatH

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I have a question. How did the people in Japan feel?

Bluebird, that's a really important question, and the book doesn't answer it.  When Dot went to the Pacific to throw a lei over the place where her brother's ship went down, an old Japanese woman saw her crying and hugged her.  They connected in a way you only can when you share something.

But how did most Japanese people feel?  Everybody, what do you know about this?

JoanP

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I think the answer to Bluebird's question would depend on who is asked...and at what point in time the question was asked...immediately after the war?  Today?

PatH

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I think the answer to Bluebird's question would depend on who is asked...and at what point in time the question was asked...immediately after the war?  Today?
Absolutely right.  And that's the same answer we're trying to get about the Oak Ridge workers.  There aren't going to be any easy answers, but what do any of you think about it?

bellamarie

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I can only imagine how Japan felt, seeing the devastation the bombs had done to their people, and their country.  War is a time you will expect lives to be lost, but this method of winning the war was beyond what any country could have ever imagined in their lifetime.  

I found this compelling:

pg. 278 (Rosemary)  The bombings themselves were still hard for her to fathom, and she knew others who felt the same way.  Anybody who had been working in Oak Ridge and had contributed to the development of something so tragic, so devastating, had to ask themselves the question whether it was the right thing to do.  She felt incredibly relieved the war was over.  She knew there were people who wondered if the death of so many thousands, so many civilians was too big a price to pay, but she didn't think most people who worked in Oak Ridge felt that it was.  The devastation after the bomb was hard to get a handle on; it was so unclear.  She could not imagine being in President Truman's shoes, having to make that kind of decision.  What a horrible responsibility, she thought.  

I found it interesting how Rosemary's first instinct was to return to Chicago, but decided to stay and take the job as nursing supervisor for the plant's on-site facility.  It makes me wonder if she felt the need to try to do some good here, after learning how much devastation the bomb had done.  

pg. 279     In her new position, she would learn a lot more about radiation.  She had of course heard about it when she was working in the hospital in Chicago, primarily associated with precautionary measures taken during the administrations of X-rays.  The long-term effects of radiation on a large scale were not yet clearly understood.  There were precautions that CEW workers coud take, film badges to measure exposure, blood tests.  And X-10, home of the pilot plutonium plant, had already had its own share of exposures that needed to be dealt with.  
     Workers who found themselves exposed__either to plutonium or other damaging chemicals__would come to the clinic, at the plant, where they were showered and scrubbed down intensely.  Sometimes they had to stay overnight, as Henry Klemski had, often leaving their spouses to wonder what had happened, and with little more than a phone call from a supervisor letting them know that their husbands wouldn't be home that night.


Rosemary met John in the clinic of a plant, they married, and after a few years John was transferred to Germantown, Maryland, and the couple moved their family to what would be their home for many years to come.
“What on earth could be more luxurious than a sofa, a book, and a cup of coffee?...Was ever anything so civil?”
__Anthony Trollope, The Warden


PatH

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Thanks, bluebird.  That's a good interview.

JoanP

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So, in the weeks following the August 6th bombing of Hiroshima, Kiernan writes that "the story of the bombing was controlled in the US - and in Japan too."
I thought the understated comment by the Japanese journalist said a lot:
"Two B29s caused a little damage."

Bluebird- does that give a clue how Japan felt?  Denial, or unwillingness to face the power of such a weapon?  Or maybe wanting to protect the Japanese from the realization of what the bomb had done to those two cities?

Kiernan reports that it wasn't until Bernard Hoffman, a Life Magazine photojournalist, documented the bomb sites in Japan on Oct. 15, that the world finally learned the power of this weapon.

Is this the right time to talk about future detonations of the atomic bomb? .  We know that Russia had spies in the US in the early 50's and tested theirs in 1953.  Makes you wonder how they accomplished this...