Kim by Rudyard Kipling ~ January Book Club Online

[JoanK]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

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Kim by Rudyard Kipling You may have read "Kim" as a young adult, but it's a whole different book for grown-ups.  Join us on January 1 to find out why "Kim" has been beloved by young and old for over 100 years.

He sat, in defiance of municipal orders, astride the gun Zam-Zammah on her brick platform opposite the old Ajaib-Gher--the Wonder House, as the natives call the Lahore museum.

SCHEDULE January 1-8:     Chapters 1-4 January 9-15:    Chapters  5-8 January 16-22:  Chapters 9-12 January 23-29:  Chapters 13-15 January 30-31:  Overview

DIscussion Leaders:  
JoanK & PatH

Online Texts of Kim

Project Gutenberg  ~  The Literature Network ~ Read Books Online

Questions Week 1 1. Kim is called "little friend of all the world". What in his circumstances enables him to play this role? What in his character? 2. We see Kim serving  two very different masters: Mahbub Ali, the horse-trader and spy, and the unworldly lama. Which do you find more interesting. Which do you think will have more influence on Kim's future (don't answer if you've read the book)? What attracts Kim to each, and each to Kim? 3. The descriptions of India in this section are very vivid. Which scene made the biggest impression on you? 4. There are very few women in Kim's world. What do the few women we see tell us about Kipling's idea of the role of women in India? 5.  If you have read some background material, what is the battle for which 8000 British soldiers will be needed? 6. Why do you think this book is so fascinating for children?

[JoanK]

FRYBABE: two very interesting links. Thanks. My tired old eyes didn't like the small print, but I read some, and will finish later. Sugar certainly had an interesting history, but I didn't get to the cows.

[JoanK]

I don't know if the commentator identified Colenal Creighton correctly, but it's absolutely fascinating to think that:

"Its opening scene must have met Kipling's eyes as soon as he reached Lahore in 1882 and the draft was not finished until 1900; ...

"Again one must imagine the young Rudyard there outside the Museum watching the children playing in the dust in the sun beside the gun. He was facing his first job in a month's time when he had to enter the Printing Office and there was his writing, always wanting expression. His interest lay, in both senses of the word, in making friends and finding his way about. He must learn to talk to all sorts of men, if he was to write all sorts of news and stories. Where should he begin?" Brigadier Alexander Mason, M.C.

[bluebird24]

http://www.siamstamp.com/catalogue/index.php?id=889

a bodhisat on a stamp
beautiful

I like Kim because he does help the lama.
never read this before

[PatH]

That's a gorgeous stamp, Bluebird.  I'm glad you're enjoying Kim.

[bluebird24]

little friend of the world
Kim is a friend of all

[JoanK]

A beautiful stamp, bluebird.

[Frybabe]

Joan, it is the caption below the picture of a book that reads "In the 1400s and 1500s in India, cows belonging to the Sultan of Mandu were fed sugar cane for weeks to make their milk sweet for use in puddings."

[elizabeth84]

Another woman mentioned is Kim's foster mother--a drug addict.  Also the woman who ran the food stall with her husband sleeping in the back and who filled the monk's begging bowl when Kim was kind enough to kick the bull (?) on the nose to make it stop eating the displayed onions.

Is it mentioned in these four chapters that his mother was an Irish nursemaid?

[PatH]

Is it mentioned in these four chapters that his mother was an Irish nursemaid?

Yes.  Glad you brought it up, because it's a good question whether Kim's social class matters.  In chapter 1--"...his mother had been a nursemaid in a colonel's family and had married Kimball O'Hara, a young colour-sergeant of the Mavericks, an Irish regiment".  So he's definitely lower class, but he's also English,  which maybe trumps all.

Thank goodness I live in a time where that's not so important.

[JoanK]

There were other women on the road:

"(p.63-4 Barnes and Noble) ...a gang of changars-the women who have taken all the embankments of all the Northern railways under their charge-- a flatfooted big-bosomed strong-limbed blue-petticoatedclan of earth-carriers hurrying North on news of a job .... They belong to the caste where men do not count, and they walk with aquared elbows,swinging hips, and heads on high...

A little later a marriage procession'... the brides litter staggering through the haze...jokes, wishing the couple a hundred sons and no daughters.....

a woman who tied goats horns to her feet and with these danced on a slackrope, set the horses to shying and the women to shrill, long-drawn quavers of amazement".

[Babi]

Democratic? I don't think so. If democracy means social equality or majority rule. India certainly didn't fit the bill back then. Not with
the inherited aristocracy, British rule and the caste system.

  That was my thought, too, FRYBABE. The govenment certainly wasn't a
democracy, either. So ruling out the social system and the form of
government, I'm hard put to guess what Kipling meant by his statement.
At Kim's age, yes, I suppose he and his playmates rubbed shoulders
together on a basis of equality. But that hardly applies to India as a
whole.

 I'm looking at Kim's first meeting with the lama.  Kim is astonished when he realizes the old man speaks the truth.  That is not the custom among the natives where Kim lives.  He decides to be the old mans ‘chela’, his servant/disciple. “I think that so old a man as thou, speaking truth to chance-met people at dusk, is in great need of a disciple.”  Young
Kim is wiser in the ways of the world than the old priest. .
  Kim says of 'his' lama,   "He is a holy man. In truth, and in act.  He is not like the others.”   Most of the ‘holy men’ Kim has known are ‘fortunetellers, or jugglers, or beggars’.  He, the 13-yr-old, feels
protective of the old priest. The boy has a good heart.

[PatH]

It's interesting that almost everyone who meets the lama is so impressed with his goodness and holiness.  His character must really shine out.

[mrssherlock]

Part of the lama's attraction is that he is from Tibet.  I can't locate my Hopkirk right now but he explains some of the reputation Tibet had at the time when he recounts the result of its penetration by two "agents" of britain who were involved in the map-making effort.  After their perfidiy was discovered those Tibetans who had hosted the travelers were stripped of their possessions, imprisoned, executed.  It opened my eyes to the true import of the "news" that Sherlock Holmes had spent three years in Tibet after his supposed death at Reichenbach Falls.  

[JoanK]

Have any of you read the book "Seven Years in Tibet"? It was made into a movie, which I haven't seen. It is non-fiction, written by a German who was in India when WWII broke out and was imprisoned. He escaped prison and, in order to escape went over the mountains to Tibet. He wound up as a tutor to the Dalai Lama (the current one, then a young boy) and accompanied him when he fled the invasion of Tibet by the Chinese. It's well written and I found it fascinating.

[Frybabe]

Years ago JeanK, and then I sent it down to my Dad for him to read. Quite interesting. I thought it was an odd book to try and make into a movie, but it worked.

Two other books in the general area but of more modern times (1960-1980ish) that I read were Peter Matthiessen's The Snow Leopard and George Schaller's Stones of Silence: Journeys in the Himalaya. Matthiessen accompanied Schaller when he was studying Snow Leopards in Nepal. Schaller's book is mostly set in Pakistani areas and involved his studies of the goats, sheep and a critter that is considered a combo of the two.  Both have lots of info about the area and peoples they met along the way. I have no clue where my copies disappeared to. Matthiessen's book is written from a more introspective and personal view.

[elizabeth84]

I just finished "The White Tiger" by Adiga, a novel about present day India; one of the main themes is that nothing is different for the poor; they are horribly oppressed by rich Indians--the forms of democracy are a fraud for the under class.  An excellent story about an extremely poor Indian who became a modern entrep.....too lazy to look it up-----business man (murderer).

[JudeS]

Some great books on India that I have read are the following:

Siddhartha by Herman Hesse-About the founder of Buddhism.

The God of Small Things by Arundhati Roy- (Won the Booker Prize) -Fraternal twins separated for 23 years meet again.  Set in Southern India.

A Passage to India by E.M.Foster (A novel and an outstanding movie)-Anglo-Indian relations under colonial rule.

A Fine Balance byRohinton Mistry--Four people from different walks of life struggle to survive when Indira Gandhi declared a state of emergency (1975-76) and imprisoned her oppponents. This is a magnificent book that broke my heart reading of the horrors Gandhi imposed on the poor people of her country.

[salan]

Jude,  A Fine Balance was a book that left a lasting impression on me.  It opened my eyes to many things I was not aware of (or didn't think about them, anyway).  I saw a whole new side of Indiri Gandhi and I will never look at goods manufactured in India in the same way!  Years later, portions of that book are still imprinted strongly in my mind.  That, IMO, is what makes a GOOD book.
I have Siddhartha in my tbr pile.
Sally

[Babi]

 I occasionally read lines in Kim that seem to reflect some of the prejudices of the times, or perhaps of Kipling.  It might be interesting to
watch for them. Here's a rather innocuous one:
 

“No amount of native training  can quench the white man’s horror of serpents.”

  Whenever I see the phrase 'white man', I suspect I will find such a statement.
   
 Phrases that I like:  from the old soldier, advising against the rebellion, “Abide a little and the wind turns.  There is no blessing in this work.”

[mrssherlock]

Babi:  The snake reference rang true with me, can't abide them.  Folklore has it that there are no snakes in Ireland and many of "the other ranks", what we would call enlisted men, were Irish, I believe.  Could explain the snake phobia.  Does England have snakes?  Could just be the white man's need to dominate Nature. 

[JoanK]

Thinking about Tibet reminds me that at the time "Seven Years" was written, (WWII) Tibet was a closed society. Foreignors were not allowed in (the author managed to be an exception) and Tibetans didn't leave. If that was true in Kim's time as well, the lama would, indeed, have been a curiosity.

I've read the first three of the books you mention, but not the fourth. Siddhartha is not really about India, but rather about Buddhism. Interestingly, while Buddhism was founded in India, and exists there, it has never been as popular there as in China and other Eastern countries.

We also read here in Seniornet a book describing India during the period of independence and partition: I don't remember it's name, but the horrible events that accompanied partition will remain with me forever.

[JoanK]

We have talked about the lama. But what about Kim's other master, the muslem horse trader. The two couldn't be more different. What is it in Kim that attracts him to each of them. What is Kipling saying about India in these two characters?

[PatH]

I occasionally read lines in Kim that seem to reflect some of the prejudices of the times, or perhaps of Kipling.  It might be interesting to
watch for them. Here's a rather innocuous one:
 

“No amount of native training  can quench the white man’s horror of serpents.”

  Whenever I see the phrase 'white man', I suspect I will find such a statement.

I particularly like that, Babi.  I'll watch out for "white man".

I read somewhere that fear of serpents is one of the most ingrained of human fears.  I'm betting that Indians also fear serpents, but know better when they might or might not be dangerous, so seem less fearful to the "white man".

Kipling was full of the prejudices of his time and class, and although he was probably better than most of his contemporaries, and had a real sympathy for the Indian culture, some of his notions are pretty unforgivable now.  He's definitely a writer who has to be taken in context.

[JudeS]

Pat-
I have the complete poems of Kipling. though he was a man of his time (as we all are), he saw things other people didn't think about let alone see.
Remember the famous "Charge of the Light Brigade" that we all learned as children? Well Kipling wrote about  "The Last of the Light Brigade".  Here are a few lines from that poem:
There were thirty million English who talked of England's might,
There were twenty broken troopers who lacked a bed for the night.
They had no food nor money, they had neither service or trade;
They were only shiftless soldiers, the last of the Light Brigade.

(I jump the next seven verses)

O thirty million English that babble of England's might,
Behold there are twenty heroes who lack their food tonight;
Our children's children are lisping to "honor the charge they made-"
And we leave to the streets and the workhouse the charge of the Light Brigade.


(1891)

[JoanP]

Good morning!  I'm playing catch-up this morning - and really enjoying the information  and insights you have been providing in your posts!  The book I am reading has no footnotes.  I had planned to read the book for the adventure and not be distracted by the references.  Silly me!  How can one read this book without wanting to know more - about just about everything?

So Kipling was born in India - was a journalist in Lahore.  Won the Nobel Prize...  The man wrote about what he knew.  Ella, lover of non-fiction - understandably you are finding much here to satisfy your tastes.
I spent some time studying the area of that "insalubrious city"  of Lahore, PatH - you can enlarge this 1882 map if you love maps the way I do -

http://lib.utexas.edu/maps/historical/india_1882.jpg

I love your descriptions of Kim - In some ways I see a resemblance between Kim and Kipling himself, do you?  

Jackie, I think it was you who referred to him as a chameleon.  That is so apt!  He seems to have the looks, the command of the language - even a trunk of costumes -
His father was an Irishman - it is the mother I cannot not picture.  She was a maid - but not necessarily Irish as some have assumed.  I see her as darker complexioned - which would allow Kim  yet another opportunity to play the chameleon.

JoanK - I was quite interested in your question regarding Kim's "other master."  I hadn't thought of Mahbub Ali as his master before.  Mahbub is much like Kim - or perhaps the other way around.  Both see opportunity and take advantage of it.  Their interest in one another seems purely "self-interest."  

The "other master"  would be the lama.  The exact opposite.  Self-interest is non-existant.  Kim has never met anyone like him before - and is genuinely attracted to this good man.  Will he eventually have to choose between the two?
I need time to catch up with you all.  Please excuse long post.  Don't know how else to start.

ps. Jude - it is so good to have you back in our midst!  Indeed, Kipling saw things that most people miss.  Perhaps another way that his Kim is Kipling...

[Babi]

 The Muslim horse trader offers Kim both adventure and pay, a most
enticing combination. Add to that the respect that comes with knowing
someone will have your hide if you speak out of turn, and you have a
pretty strong bond.
 The Lama is quite different. At first, Kim feels the old man needs
someone to look after him. He feels protective. We all know how strong
a bond can be with those who need us. Kim comes to love the old man's
goodness and integrity. I don't know what, if anything, Kipling is
saying about India here, but it does illustrate the things that capture
a child's imagination.

JUDE, I hope Kipling's poem about the remnants of the Light Brigade did
some good when it appeared. There was nothing 'glorious' about that
tragedy, and it's shameful that the veterans were left in such neglect.

JOAN, I was surprised to see Lahor referred to as an 'industrial' city.
Between factories and trains, I've had to adjust my image of the India
of those days. And the Grand Trunk Road: “It runs straight, bearing without crowding India’s traffic for fifteen hundred mile----such a river of life as nowhere else exists in the world.”  What a stirring image.

[JoanP]

When I read Kipling's description of the "insalubrious"  city of Lahore, I had difficulty deciding whether he was referring to it as "unhealthy"  - or morally "unwholesome."  Perhaps he meant insalubrious to describe the city as both unhealthy and unwholesome.  Remember K. lived and worked in Lahore - he'd know the city well.

[Frybabe]

Jude, that poem could be an ongoing and current social commentary on how veterans are treated. There always seems to be a shortfall it comes to treating vets. Still, we do a lot better than the way it used to be.

I visited a veterans hospital back in the 80s when my stepfather-in-law was hospitalized. It seemed no more than a holding pen. They were very short staffed. One of the nurses told me that they couldn't help out one without helping the others equally (accusations of favoritism and all that). Still, we do a lot better than the way it was in Kipling's day. I wonder if there is an history somewhere of how veterans benefits have come about and progressed. I suspect that private organizations were in the forefront with governments dragging their feet somewhat.

[fairanna]

The only way I can make sense of this book is to STOP READING THE COMMENTS AT THE BOTTOM OF THE PAGES..so last night I started over and am now engrossed with the story ..reading your posts helps  I think my mind is reluctant to grasp what I am reading...I have to go out and hate the thought .,..I think what I want is to just snuggle in some very cozy nook and read my book ...anna alas

[mrssherlock]

I see Kim and Mahbub as two people who share a secret and therefore can appreciate one another all the more in recognition of their worth in fooling everyone else.  Mahbub sees the real Kim, sees beneath the facade he presents to the rest of the world.

[JoanK]

JOANP: "Will he eventually have to choose between the two?"

Wonderful question! And you may have found the map we've been looking for.

JUDE: thank you for finding that poem. Yes, Kipling did see a lot, and cared about what he saw. Would that were true of more people. But like all of us, he was limited in his sight by the time he lived in. I wonder what people 100 years from now will look back and say "Why didn't they see that?"

FRYBABE: I used to work at Walter Reed. All the military who worked there said they would never go there if they had a choice.

ANNA: the same thing happened to me. At first, I thought the footnotes were a help. Then I realized they were keeping me from seeing the picture Kipling is painting of the swirling moving life of India.

[salan]

Does tomorrow end our 1st week, chapters 1-4.  When does week 2 begin and what chapters will we cover??  I am going to try to skip over all the footnotes and get on with the story. 
Sally

[Frybabe]

And here I thought Walter Reed was a cut above the rest, JoanK.

[mrssherlock]

I mentioned this earlier but it may bear repeating.  For text only the online versions work very well (see heading).

[elizabeth84]

Annie Shott--Kim's mother.  Google says that Shott is an English name, topographic name for someone who lived by a projecting piece of land, Old English for sceat or a steep slope.

[JoanK]

SALEN: no, we stuck an extra day onto the first week, to allow for people being busy New Years. Next week starts Saturday, the ninth. We'll cover Ch. 5-8. When in doubt, check the schedule in the heading.

[PatH]

Kim's mother was indeed Irish.  In chapter 1, as the lama leaves the museum and Kim follows, "The Lama was his trove and he purposed to take possession.  Kim's mother had been Irish too,"

[PatH]

Mahbub Ali, the horse trader, may not be as lovable as the lama, but he certainly is striking--tall, fierce, and burly with a bright red dyed beard.  I like to think of it as very curly, though I don't remember if Kipling says.

According to Hopkirk, there really was a Mahbub Ali, known to Kipling.  He had made Afghanistan too hot to hold him during the first afghan war, and had set up horse trading with his sons in the location described in "Kim".

In the 1950 movie (I haven't seen it) he is played by Errol Flynn!  What do you think of that for casting?

[JudeS]

My book has no footnotes  but each chapter starts with part of a poem by Kipling which is a nice touch. It is a Bantam edition from 2007. Here and there the fellow who wrote the intro translates an utterly incomprehensible expression in the text itself.  This is helpful and doesn't take away from the story.
Since Kipling wrote nigh onto 500 poems  , Morton Cohen  the man who wrote the introduction to the book, had lots of choices to make when choosing the introductory lines.  He has a good sense of humor as well and slyly hints at what may be happening in the chapter.
Here is his choice for chap. four:
Good luck she is never a lady
But the cursedest Queen alive.
Tricky, wincing and jady-
Kittle to lead or drive.
Greet her- she's hailing a stranger!
Meet her- she's busking to leave!
Let her alone for a shrew to the bone
And the hussy comes plucking your sleeve!
Largesse! Largesse!,O Fortune!
Give or hold at your will
If I 've no care for Fortune
Fortune must follow me still!
                               THE WISHING CAPS