Troublesome Young Men ~ by Lynne Olson ~ April Book Club Online

[Ella Gibbons]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

Troublesome Young Men: The Rebels Who Brought Churchill to Power by Lynne Olson

The 1930's.  Depression years . Tough times for America.  The nation was self absorbed and little concerned in what was going in Europe.

And what was going on in Europe?  In England there was little interest in confronting the menace of Hitler and his invasion of neighboring countries.

The question is why?  Perhaps you think you know?  Not really, not until you read this book.  

Lynne Olson writes a story that comes alive with the history of England during one of its most perilous periods and bring us a fascinating tale of  TROUBLESOME YOUNG MEN, highly ambitious, powerful, wealthy young men, with their love of life, their love affairs, who put their careers in jeopardy to oust the old and bring in a new government willing to face the evil that was upon them.

LINK:
Troublesome Young Men - C-Span

JOIN IN WHAT PROMISES TO BE A GOOD DISCUSSION APRIL lst

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Discussion Leaders:  Ella and Harold

Reading Schedule

April l-8          Chapters 1-5
April 9-15       Chapters 6-10
April 16-22     Chapters 11-15
April 23-30     Chapters 16-end

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FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION:



In the Introduction Edward R. Murrow reporting from England in 1939 states:  "the machine is out of control, we are all passengers on an express train traveling at high speed through a dark tunnel toward an unknown destiny.  The suspicion recurs that the train may have no engineer, no one who can handle it."   What are your thoughts on this statement, does it resonate with anything in the USA in your lifetime?

How did the USA public react to what was going on in Germany in the decade of the thirties?  How did the public in England react?

How did the leaders, the political leaders, of both countries react?

Neville Chamberlain, how did he come to office, how did he stay in so long?  Were you shocked by some of the facet of the man’s personality?  What amazed you the most?

Duff Cooper, just one of the troubled young men, visited Germany in 1933 and upon returning home delivered a speech on the dangers of Nazism, only to be denounced as a “warmonger, by Lord Beaverbrook’s newspapers.  s Cooper was just one of many.  Does the public pay enough attention to world news or do we weary of news?

The difficulty of balancing ambition and conscience is as true today as it was in the decade of the thirties?    What can influence politicians to use their conscience, their moral values?

Lady Violet Bonham Carter, a lifetime friend of Churchill and one that rivaled his command of language, believed that  the duties of motherhood constrained her from entering the political arena.  Had she lived today in England would she have believed differently and would she be a force in politics?  Are women equal to men in Parliament today?  


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OH, I JUST READ SOME POSTS, THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH.

A big thanks to HAROLD and JACKIE, our local historians.

And thanks MARJ, I'll be watching, that book is on my list after a few more.....

[serenesheila]

I really like the way Lynn Olson writes!  So, I just ordered her newest book.  I also ordered her book about the Civil Rights.

For most of my life, I have respected, and admired Winston Churchill.  This book gives me some information about him, that I am rather sorry to know.  Other than not wanting the Empire to decrease in size, why was he so adamant about not giving India it's freedom?  He had not been in India, for years, so had no personal experience with what was going on there.

I am appalled with both the class system, and the treatment of women.  No wonder that until recent years, America protected our Presidents, from scandal.  I was amused to learn about the Bonham Carter woman, who was such a close friend with C.  I would love to have been present during some of their discussions.  It appeared to me, that dear, old C, had no mistresses.  What do the rest of you think?

In addition to C, I had only heard of McMillan and Eden.  Most of the other names in the book, were unfamiliar to me.  I think that I would enjoy reading a book about Chamberlain.  I have wondered why he was so in favor of apeasement, but this book gives me information so that I can better understand it.

My great grandmother was fascinated with the romance of Edward and Mrs. Simpson.  She kept a scrapbook of newspaper clippngs about there courship and marriage.  I inheirited her scrapebook.  This would be a good time to get it out, and read the articles, again.

I can certainly understand why those who were in the military during WWI didn't want to see England go to war with the Nazi.  I have been watching a miniseries on the military channel, called "World At War".  On the 6th of April this channel will show 3 of the series, about the beginning of the Nazi reign.  There will be another shown on both April 9th and 10th.

Sheila

[kiwilady]

I too have been watching lots about WW1 on our Documentary Channel. Winston Churchill was one of the idiot Commanders as first Lord of the Admiralty that my grandfather talked about in WW1. We lost a whole generation of young men from a tiny tiny nation at Gallipoli and in the Trenches in France. It was partly because of this conflict and then WW2 that both NZ and Australia came of age and claimed their own identity. NZ did become a self governing colony of Britain in 1907 but it was not til 1947 that we had full and total independance from the Crown. However it was WW1 that defined us both as different from the Mother Country.

It is surprising that Winston became such a powerful and venerable figure during WW2. I believe it was solely his ability as an orator which enabled him to keep up morale both in the field of battle and at home that made him such a famous figure.

[Dana]

My favourite British PM is Clement Attlee--elected just after WW2 when the British public kicked out Churchill and the Labour Party swept into office.  He nationalized health care and many other industries as well.  So of-course the Unions gradually took over, but is that any worse than big business, I wonder.
Britain has a great history of oppressing the  "heathen masses" in the empire but also espousing, very early, liberal causes, such as abolishment of slavery, universal education (Scotland did that one back in the 1700s), womens' rights (about 1920ish), universal health care (1945), gay rights (not sure--1970ish I think), used to have a non punitive policy for drug addicts--drugs on the NH--certainly cut down on drug related crime, not sure if it has it now, and no guns of-course!!  No capital punishment since the 70s as well.  Of-course much of Europe is the same and am not sure who actually did what first.
 

[Frybabe]

My eyes popped open when I read that Ronald Cartland was Barbara's brother. I never read any of her books (didn't then and still don't care for Romance novels) but I do remember the 60 minutes interview years ago. Did you know she wrote a book about her brother?

[kiwilady]

Barbara Cartland was also Princess Diana's step grandmama.

[kiwilady]

I think we all have a class system and its kind of burying your head into the sand to deny it. Our upper class are the rich. Particularly old money. We may not have the aristocracy but we certainly have class divide. Is it any different than that of Britain?

Carolyn

[Babi]

 

Slavers to avoid Royal Navy search took to flying the American flag. This led to Royal Navy stopping many American ships most who were notslavers.  This was not the only reason for the war, but it was one of the causes.

   
 HAROLD, thank you for that information. I don't recall being told this
reason for the Royal Navy stopping American ships, but it does seem a
valid reason. All we heard in American History class was that the English
were stopping American ships and seizing sailors, claiming they were
British. Which of course put Britain entirely in the wrong. A not unusual
slanting of history, right?

 MARJ, I was fascinated to learn that the novelist Barbara Cartland was
Richard Cartland's sister and her writings helped finance his entry into
politics. Richard Cartland himself is someone I'd never heard of before
and a man that deserves to be remembered. I'm learning about a number of men and women in this book that I'm glad to 'know'.

 I agree, SHEILA.  I am most impressed with Lynne Olson’s analysis of the character and personality of all these men. She gives an even-handed insight into the strengths that allowed them to accomplish whatever they did, and the weaknesses that sometimes caused them to fail.  We come to know more about each of them as human beings, and it makes the events all the more poignant.

 As to Churchill and India, I was shocked by his extreme and bitter attack on Hindus.  He had been a young officer in India in the 1890’s.  I can’t help but think something must have happened there  that left a deep wound. His violent attitude toward India and it’s people makes no sense to me in any other context.  Has anyone here read his autobiography?  If so, does he write about anything during his time in India that would explain this?


 One difference, I think, KIWILADY.  An aristocrat is always an aristocrat,
no matter the circumstances.  The rich lose their status if they lose the
money.

[HaroldArnold]

From message #166
"I think we all have a class system and its kind of burying your head into the sand to deny it. Our upper class are the rich. Particularly old money. We may not have the aristocracy but we certainly have class divide. Is it any different than that of Britain?"

Good point Carolyn.  Will a true classless society ever be possible?  I don't think it has ever been achieved in history.  Certainly not on a national level.  It would take a complete overhaul of Human nature.

Also regarding the post about Clement Attlee administration his nationalization of the major U.K. industries led to some 30 years of economic stagnation and the long delay in England recovery from WW II.  In the late 1970's there was still massive unemployment particularly among young people.  It took Margaret Thatcher, finally a PM with real "spunk," to restore prosperity in the U.K.

Babi there was another reason for them to stop American Ships.  The U.K. was in a continental war with Napoleon.  The Royal Navy was blockading Napoleonic France that by 1812 was the entire European Continent.  Some American Traders were trading with France.  The US too has certainly used Navel blockades in all its wars.  

[Ella Gibbons]

OUR AUTHOR LAST SEPTEMBER ON BOOK TV:  (She will be on BookTV today at 11 a.m.)  She's young, isn't she?

LISTEN TO LYNNE OLSON

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/id/180764

[mrssherlock]

Which of these men do I care about?  Like BABI I was amazed by the Barbara Cartland connection. Olson seems to focus on MacMillan for I feel that I know more about him and his circumstances than any of the others.  His stoic acceptance of his wife's infidelity may have made him the object of contempt to some but to me it shows unswerving loyalty and adherence to his principles.  That I can personally remember him by name may color my opinion. Volume One of his six-volume autobiography, The Winds of Change, is not available at my library.

[Ella Gibbons]

CAROLYN, I just watched Lynne Olson on BookTV and she gives Churchill much more credit than you in your statement "I believe it was solely his ability as an orator which enabled him to keep up morale both in the field of battle and at home that made him such a famous figure."  

The program was very good, I think we should go on and discuss her new book CITIZENS OF LONDON.  Sounds wonderful and I read a biography of Pamela Churchill Harriman sometime ago and knew a little of what she talked about.  What an ambitious woman Pamela was!

DANA, as we get more into the book and the war and HITLER, (certainly we need to talk about this man more thoroughly than our author) you must keep us informed from the book you are reading.  We need insights from other sources and thanks for your views on British laws; they have been ahead of the USA in many policies.

I smiled at HAROLD's statement:  "It would take a complete overhaul of Human nature" to have a classless society.  Indeed, even a classless community, even a church?  And, as always, Harold is wonderful in his knowledge of history!!

Thanks, BABI, for your opinion on Churchill.  Someone else has already commented that they are shocked at Churchill's attitude toward India.  Churchill was  avidly opposed to self rule for India, he believed it was in their best interest to stay within the Empire.   When I think how quickly the British Empire dissolved after WWII it must have been a blow to all those Tories who thought the sun never set on the kingdom, so to speak.

Harold, Harold, probably can tell us more.

No, FRYBABE, I didn't know that Barbara Cartland wrote a book about her brother, I must look it up.  He was the youngest rebel of them all (I liked that sly little smile on his picture, you have looked at the pictures in the book?).  Olson began her book writing about him; when she had all these others to write why, do you suppose, she chose him to begin?

JACKIE, you bring up MacMillan's marital problems. What a story!  His mother was an American from Indiana and although he said he admired her,  he "never really liked her."  She dominated him and then he had to marry a domineering woman!  That would make another story wouldn't it?  You say he wrote a six-volume autobiography!  Wow!  The author quoted one of the famous MItford sisters in saying that Harold was boring and they all tried not to sit next to him.  Well, he was a bookish man.  I'm a bookish woman and probably just as boring!

And then there is BOOTHBY - he's the guy on the cover with that other!  The golden boy in politics, witty, attractive and the lover of MacMillan's wife.  Well, Well, and the book says that it was Dorothy, the wife, who initiated it.

But how British to be discreet???  Really!  How about the King abdicating the throne for his lover!  Nothing discreet about that affair.

They were all Tories, weren't they?  I must get these parties straight!  Tories, Liberals - is that it?  





 

[Ella Gibbons]

I apologize for being lengthy, it's just that all your posts are so very interesting, I must talk about them.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR YOUR ENTHUSIASM, HAROLD AND I TRULY APPRECIATE IT.

[JoanK]

Tories were (are?) the conservative party. I suspect maybe some of these young men should have been Liberals. But of course, you couldn't be a Liberal if your family had been Tory for generations. (Like my mother, from a small town in Ohio, said that everyone in town was a Republican except one Democrat. And he wasn't really a Democrat, he just said he was to annoy people!)

More practically, they had contacts (relatives) in the Tory party, and were given "safe seats" to run for. The Liberal party was alien territory.

[kiwilady]

I guess if you compared the USA definition of a liberal some of the Tories should have been liberals however if you were living here these young men would definately have been classified as Conservatives. 

I still don't believe Churchill was a great tactician as far as warfare goes but I do believe he was a great Statesman and had the ability to encourage and to keep on side his allies. There were some great Generals amongst the army and his allies and I believe they were the men who most contributed on a tactical level to our Victory in WW2.

Its quite amazing that Churchill had such an ability to rally the troops and the people when all his life he suffered from depression. "The Black Dog" he called it.

Carolyn

[Babi]

 Thanks, HAROLD. I love the small details that make history come alive,
so I sometimes miss the 'big picture'. What I need is a big chronology
that tells me what was going on throughout the world during each period,
so I can put it all in perspective.

 ELLA & CAROLYN, isn’t it odd that a man regarded with suspicion and
 distrust by both parties, considered disloyal and widely disliked, held
so many posts?  I can only conclude that Churchill was so d---ed good at
any job he tackled that they couldn’t afford not to use him.  But then
Olson writes, “He had a reputation for rashness and bad judgment…”. 
I guess “extremely talented” covers a lot of sins.

    I was astonished to learn that Parliament proposed to adjourn for summer vacation, with a war about to break out any day.  This government’s prime minister had already been responsible for a shameful betrayal of the Poles.  Now he proposes to go off on holiday and ignore a war that is expected to involve his own country?  The more I learn about Chamberlain
the lower my opinion of him drops.  Only the entrenched 'old boy' rules could have kept such
a man in the prime minister's post at such a difficult time.

[mrssherlock]

 Apparently it was only the "old boys" who knew the extent of the dangers Britain faced since the official line was one of optimism and belief in Britain's invulnerability. 

[Ella Gibbons]

HAPPY EASTER EVERYONE!   WILL BE BACK TOMORROW

[kiwilady]

It is shocking how many of the upper class were enamoured with Germany under fascism. I suspect that is because the Upper Class realised change was on the way. They would not enjoy their privileged way of life in the same way for much longer. Servants were beginning to defect to work in industry and the unemployed were extremely restless. Some feared revolution. A dictator sounded like a good way to preserve the status quo.

Carolyn

[Babi]

Ch. 2 is all about the tradition of ‘playing the game’ that was drilled
into every generation of  public school boys.  The old school traditions,
frankly, are a horror. I hope all that hasn’t survived. It is hard to
go against the tenets that were absorbed during childhood.

It is a sad paradox, isn’t it, KIWI? On the one hand, the last war is so
recent that people are most reluctant to even consider another war. At
the same time, the upper classes seem to be wholly ignoring the fact that
their very recent enemy was the Germany they are now so happily endorsing.
I can’t help wondering if there is not some feeling that if they are good
buddies, the Germans will not attack them. After all, Hitler did consider
the blond English race to be Aryan. Their Jews, Hindus, Jamaicans, etc.,
etc., would have to go, of course.

 Olson writes, “Most of the government ministers responsible for appeasement had never been in the trenches.” The veterans were “fervent in their desire for peace”, but believed “it was necessary to prepare for war in order to maintain that peace”. The Prime Minister and the appeasement-minded Tories put on their blinders and refused to see what
they didn't want to see.

[Ella Gibbons]

Did you notice that our author kept quoting Harold Nicholson early in these chapters and I kept wondering how he came into the picture; on page 52 we learn  a bit about his his wife.  (Had you heard of her before?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vita_Sackville-West

These Englishmen and women marry and stay married even though their marriages must have been very unhappy.  Both the Macmillan marriage and the Nicholson marriage were  examples of extraordinary marital infidelities, yes, extraordinary!  

Let's talk for a moment about Nicholson.  He was headed for a brilliant career in politics; he had helped in the Balfour Declaration which gave British support to the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and also helped with the Paris Peace Conference.  He was known for his expertise in foreign affairs and would have been an asset to Parliament at this time.  His marriage almost cost him his career, but he was dependent upon her, isn't that strange.  Here is their beloved castle and gardens, which is still famous throughout the world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sissinghurst_Castle_Garden

[edited] I wanted to add a postscript about Harold Nicolson that I read in Wikipedia.  His diaries of this period were published by his son and are considered to be "one of the pre-eminent British diaries of the 20th century and an invaluable source on British political history from 1930 through the 1950s, particularly in regard to the run-up to World War II and the war itself: Nicolson served in high enough echelons to write of the workings of the circles of power and the day-to-day unfolding of great events from, as it were, a medium distance"

[Ella Gibbons]

Oh, BABI, I just noticed your post and I would bet that those old school traditions have been changed, history has certainly taught them something?  And, like you, I was amazed that the veterans of WWI were the ones who were against appeasement, they had known the horrors of the war and the deaths of their comrades and felt they owed it to them to fight for peace.  Is that true today in America with our current war; these young men and women returning time and again for another tour of duty?

Hi CAROLYN,  Change is difficult and particulary for the upper class a few of which you pointed out.

Is it true, then, that it is the younger generation, the younger folk, who push for change in government, in industry?  

[HaroldArnold]

The following link is a Churchill time line Biography.
http://www.winston-churchill-leadership.com/timeline.html   

The other day there was some comment relative to parliamentarians switching their party affiliation.  True it was rare but Winston Churchill made two switches during his lifetime.   Churchill had a very aristocratic beginning.  His father was the second son of the Duke of Marlboro.  Do you remember the PBS, “The First Churchill’s”  series?  His father died young of Syphilis.  Don’t be shocked, it was not an unusual end for aristocrats in those days.   There was a time when Winston Churchill was the heir presumptive to the succession, an event that had it occurred would have excluded Churchill from Commons.  But the ageing reigning Duke remarried and bingo a son was born that cut Winston out of the line.

Churchill was most certainly born to be a member of the House of Commons.  When he was first elected to Parliament in 1900 as a Conservative Queen Victoria was still on the throne.   With just 4 years as a Conservative member Winston suddenly switched parties to join the liberals.  With Liberal affiliation during WW I, he held High Cabinet posts as Home Secretary and First Lord of the Admiralty.  In the latter post he promoted an attack on Turkish positions guarding the Dardanelles .  The operation was a military disaster resulting in his resignation from his post (but not from Parliament) and active duty with the army in France.  This incident left him with a lingering reputation as a hot head incompetent.

 Returning to Parliament in 1917 he remained a Liberal member with high cabined responsibilities until he was defeated for reelection in 1922.  He returned to parliament in 1924 after again switching his party affiliation to the Conservatives.  From that date he remained in parliament until 1964.

[Ella Gibbons]

Thanks, HAROLD, for that history of Churchill; we will be talking much more about him in the weeks to come.  In these early chapters, Churchill is certainly not a leader. He is very loyal to Chamberlain, a supporter of the King (good heavens!); he's forming committees and groups for all kinds of reasons.  An editorial in a newspaper stated that Churchill had a flair for doing the wrong thing at the wrong moment.

LADY VIOLET BONHAM CARTER was a lifelong friend to Churchill, an ally.  What do you think of her?

She believed in the traditional role of a wife and mother; being one of the few women in this book, with the exception of Clementine, to play the role.

Does motherhood constrain one from politics?  17 women in our Senate today I believe?  Wouldn't it be nice if half of the Senate were women?  How would it change?

[HaroldArnold]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violet_Bonham_Carter,_Baroness_Asquith_of_Yarnbury#Political_career The preceding link concerns Lady Violet Bonham Charter’s Political Career.  Apparently she never achieved  election top Parliament , but she seems to have been well  know in U.K political circles during the period described in our discussion book..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nancy_Astor,_Viscountess_Astor  This is a summary of the Career of Lady Astor who was the first Woman to be elected to Parliament.  Though she became something of a controversial figure she stuck around for many years.  I remember hearing her name occasionally in the news during the 40l’s and 50’s

http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/M04.pdf   This 10 page fact-sheet outlines the history of the campaigns to give women the vote and to allow them to stand as candidates for election to Parliament with some details on Women members who have served both as members and in Cabinet Posts, and leadership positions

[Ella Gibbons]

Oh, all of that is so interesting, HAROLD.

Is it just you and I here in the room?  Well, as seniors, we have seen women ascending slowly in the political arena and I think we are needed badly.  More women are in higher education today I have read and, obviously, need to have their voices heard.  We should read and discuss a biography of Margaret Thatcher, now there was some lady!

Meanwhile, someone posted about the "black dog" expression, I think it was Churchill who had bouts?  I am reading a book by Josceline Dimbleby, a British author, entitled MAY AND AMY (Gaskell), they were upper class in the decade  before the one we are discussing, but names keep cropping up that are familiar.  And the "black dog" depression was mentioned by one of the characters, I think it was the painter Burne-Jones, a famous portraitist.  So it was not original with Churchill.

I hope our participants are still around?   

WHERE ARE YOU ALL?

[Jonathan]

'...he's forming committees and groups for all kinds of reasons.'

Isn't that interesting. The book is about those troublesome young men, but here's the old man very busy in the background. It seems to me he is the one to watch. Thanks for the Churchill timeline, Harold. What an amazing life.

[JoanK]

I'm here reading, but have been busy the last few days. Certainly the picture of Churchill as a racist is shocking. As is the personal lives of some of the characters. How much of all of this was known at the time, I wonder.

The picture of V. Sackville-West certainly makes her seem like a strong character. Easier to imagine her husband letting her do what she wanted ans staying out of her way.

[Frybabe]

Thanks for the links Harold. I didn't know that Lady Astor was in Parliament. I just thought she was one of those high society colorful characters. Lady Violet Bonham Carter seems to me to have been a high energy person.

[marcie]

I'm finding the descriptions of each of the "troublesome young men" very interesting and informative. I have little knowledge of most of those people. What struck me with force is how most of the press protected the government, not only by witholding information from the public but sometimes by inserting their own views as fact in the articles they published. I can feel my anger rising as I read those sections of the book.

[marcie]

My ears (eyes) perked up at the mention of Lady Violet Bonham Carter, since I am a fan of the actress Helena Bonham Carter. Helena's father is the son of English Liberal politician Sir Maurice Bonham Carter and renowned politician and orator  Violet Bonham Carter, whose father was the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, H. H. Asquith (1908–1916). It seems that there is mention in the book so far of several women who were instrumental in supporting and, even, prodding some of the men to greater action.

[Wend]

Hello, I'm new to Senior Learn and would like to join this discussion.
I've got the book and read this week's chapters but am still working my way through the posts.

The book is a marvellous, comprehensive and coherent treatment of a crucial episode in history which ties together so much which hitherto has been a catalogue of scarcely related incidents.

As an Australian I live under a parliament based on the Westminster system. The Australian version has three separate and independent levels of government - Federal, State and Local Councils.
This system is a constitutional monarchy in which the Queen vests Vice-Regal powers and responsibilities in the office of the Governor-General.
Although often the role of the Governor- General is seen essentially as ceremonial this is not the case as the power of veto is exercised on occasion such as in 1975 when as Governor-General Sir John Kerr
dismissed the incumbent Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam.
Fundamentally it is a two party system plus independent MPs who sometimes hold the balance of power.Parliament is structured with a House of Representatives (like the British Commons) and a Senate which acts as a House of Review ( similar in principle to The House of Lords).
The Prime Minister is appointed by his party and The Speaker of The House acts as the chairman and maintains order during debate.     

[Babi]

 ELLA, I was curious about Sissingham Gardens, too, and found this great
site with many lovely pictures of the gardens.

 http://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/main/w-vh/w-visits/w-findaplace/w-sissinghurstcastlegarden/w-sissinghurstcastlegarden-photo_gallery.htm

 What I’m reading about Lady Violet Bonham Carter fascinates me. I want
to know more about this woman. It appears she has left diaries and letters
as well as two autobiographies of Churchill.  I wonder how available any
of these are now?  I don’t see any of them listed in the bibliography.
  Lantern Slides - The Diaries and Letters of Violet Bonham Carter,
1904-1914, eds. Mark Bonham Carter and Mark Pottle (Weidenfeld & Nicolson,
1996)
  Champion Redoubtable - The Diaries and Letters of Violet Bonham Carter,
1914-1945, ed. Mark Pottle (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1998)
  Daring to Hope - The Diaries and Letters of Violet Bonham Carter, 1945-1969, ed. Mark Pottle (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 2000)

  And good morning, WEND.  Glad to meet a new participant.  I'm sure you'll enjoy the
'lively discussions we have at SeniorLearn.

[Ella Gibbons]

WEND, A HEARTY WELCOME TO YOU!  

We are so happy to hear you like the book and doubly happy that you are from Australia;  another parliamentary govenment.

Can you expound on this statement a bit:  -  Although often the role of the Governor- General is seen essentially as ceremonial this is not the case as the power of veto is exercised on occasion such as in 1975 when as Governor-General Sir John Kerr dismissed the incumbent Prime Minister, Gough Whitlam.

Is The Governor-General appointed by the Queen?  To serve for how long?

Yes, JONATHAN, that old man is lurking in the background.  Does this remind you of our discussion of TEAM OF RIVALS by Doris Kearns Goodwin, which purportedly was about those surrounding Lincoln, but we couldn't get away from that tall guy.  He was dominant as is Churchill.

MARCIE, the actress, Helena Bonham Carter?  Stage, screen?  What has she played in; English movies?  Yes, that business of suppressing the news is amazing to read and we will be discussing more about that in our next 5 chapters!  Thank you for your post!

FRYBABE!  We all  smiled at the "high society colorful characters" that you mentioned.  Don't you think Americans are awed by the British; old ancestry, ladies-in-waiting, the drama of the Queen and palaces!  

Hi JOANK:  What are your reasons for thinking Churchill was a racist?  Is he portrayed as such in this book?  Interesting!

Today is our last day for discussing the first five chapters!!  And here in these chapters are the young men (some not so young) that define the book.  

We haven't mentioned Boothby at all - that fellow on the front cover.  WHAT DID YOU THINK OF HIM?  And his future?

Nor have we mentioned ANTHONY EDEN.  A man who was supposed to lead the country and why didn't he?

[mrssherlock]

Gordon Brown has asked QEII to dissolve Parliament and there will be an election in 4 weeks.  How timely for our discussion.  BBC World News on NPR had a special about this at 2 AM our time.  http://news.bbc.co.uk/
As we learn more about parliamentary government I am envious about a system which does not require its members to face the ordeal of campaigning every two years, which in practice means constantly. Seems as if the money raising is done by the party, another burden our pols endure.  There are many aspects of parliamentary government which appeal to me.

[HaroldArnold]

Chapter 5, “I Lack The Spunk.”  Though Anthony Eden spent more than 30 years in Parliament, our Author concludes he never really felt at home there.  As Lynn Olson pointed out, “he much preferred the genteel patrician world of the Foreign Office where he spent two years Foreign Secretary post.” 

Eden’s anti appeasement leanings made his tenure in Foreign Secretary  post increasingly difficult in the face of the PM’s increasing commitment to an appeasement policy.  Finally in Feb 1937 after Chamberlain announced he intended to begin direct negotiations with Mussolini, Eden resigned.  Just hours before Eden.s resignation speech, Churchill sent Eden a note urging him “ him not to shrink from taking Chamberlain on,  but when Eden made his resignation speech he offered no call to battle, no ringing denunciation of appeasement.”  It was just a polite our opinions differ so I resign. 

It was up to Bobberty Crainborne  who also resigned his cabinet post at the same time to make the case that Eden failed to make. “Chamberlain’s determination to pursue talks with Italy, he said was nothing but a surrender to blackmail.  Lynn Olson summed the situation in these words , “Anthony Eden had no desire to bring the government down.  Rebellion was not in his blood.  Years later he wrote in his diary “I truly hate the game of politics, not because I am better than other politicians, God forbid, but because I lack spunk.””

This brings us to the question where else has the lack of spunk in political leaders, not just in the U.K. but in the U.S. and other Countries figured in history”  If I get the time I will cite events in our revolution where indecision or social diversion by British Generals  contributed to the success of the Revolution.  Do any of you have comments on this subject?

[marcie]

Welcome, Wend! I'm glad that you'll be sharing your knowledge and perspectives as an Australian in this discussion.

Harold, "a lack of spunk" seemed to figure in several of the potential leaders for Britain during this time. It seems that many were, understandably, in fear for their careers due to the extremely strong political machine of the existing government. But they also seemed to be under the influence of their upbringing where certain things "just weren't done" or said.

Ella, there is a filmography for Helena Bonham Carter at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_Bonham_Carter#Films. She mostly is in "period pieces"-- several based on novels by E. M. Forster. She also plays a great villainess in the Harry Potter series.

[HaroldArnold]

Here is a site on the U.K. General Election now scheduled for May 6th.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_general_election,_2010

Perhaps we can hold this discussion over for comment relative the results after they become available after the Election? 

[kiwilady]

I got a book out of the library yesterday Titled Churchills Secret Weapons. I wanted to see how much Churchill was involved in tactics during the conflict. Its very interesting so far and I will post a short precis of anything I feel is of interest and gives more insight into Churchhill as Commander in Chief during WW2.

Hi to our new Aussie poster.

Carolyn

[JoanK]

WEND: WELCOME, WELCOME!

I had no idea there were so many variations on the parliamentary system of government. This discussion has really made me think about these variations. Obviously, all of these systems have been robust in preserving democracy, but each with it's own strengths and weaknesses.

I'm confused. The schedule says we discuss the first part through April 8. But now the 6th is the last day? Either way, I'd better get started on part 2.