Author Topic: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online  (Read 150883 times)

JoanP

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #160 on: March 12, 2010, 12:57:48 AM »

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

 
The Book Thief -  March Bookclub Online
Everyone is invited to join in!
 

        "Fortunately, this book isn't about Death; it's about death, and so much else."  
"Some will argue that a book so difficult and sad may not be appropriate for teenage readers. "The Book Thief" was published for adults in Zusak's native Australia, and I strongly suspect it was written for adults. Many teenagers will find the story too slow to get going, which is a fair criticism. But it's the kind of book that can be life-changing, because without ever denying the essential amorality and randomness of the natural order, "The Book Thief" offers us a believable, hard-won hope.
The Book Thief is a complicated story of survival that will encourage its readers to think." (Bookmarks Magazine)

"How can a tale told by Death be mistaken for young-adult storytelling? Easily: because this book's narrator is sorry for what he has to do. The youthful sensibility of "The Book Thief" also contributes to a wider innocence. While it is set in Germany during World War II and is not immune to bloodshed, most of this story is figurative: it unfolds as symbolic or metaphorical abstraction.
"The Book Thief" will be widely read and admired because it tells a story in which books become treasures. And because there's no arguing with a sentiment like that." (New York Times)

Discussion Schedule:

March 1-2 ~ Prologue
March 3-7 ~ Part I & II (the gravedigger's handbook; the shoulder shrug)
March 8-14 ~ Part III & IV  (mein kampf; the standover man)
        March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI (the whistler; the dream carrier)                
March 22-28 ~ Part VII & VIII (complete duden dictionary; the word shaker)
March 29-April 4 ~ Part IX & X (the last human stranger; the book thief)


Some Questions for Your Consideration

March 15-21 ~ Part V & VI  (the whistler; the dream carrier)


1. Will you  share with us some of the images and metaphors that captured your attention and made you pause while reading these two sections?  

2. Did Death spoil the story for you by revealing in advance "the three stupid things" that will be Rudy's downfall in two years' time?   Why do you think he did that?

3. Can you explain what was meant by "the seventh side of a die?"   How do you think Germany's invasion of Russia would affect the people on Himmel Street?  Do you detect a change?

4.  Can you forgive Liesel for the way she retaliated against the Mayor's wife? How can her anger be explained in the growing tension between the poor and the upper class at this time?

5. What is it about the  the  second drawing in Max's book that  frightens Liesel? (p.280) What is he trying to express?
 
6.   Death  searches for beauty in Germany at this time, 1942.  Do you think he succeeded?  Is that what this book is all about?

7.  Who do you see as the "Whistler" in Liesel's stolen book?  What is it about this book that makes Liesel shiver when she reads it?  Whose book do you think it had belonged to?

8.  Do you believe the library window was left open on purpose?  Why did Liesel want to steal "The Dream Carrier"?   Do you remember what it was about?

9.  Max and Liesel dream often in these chapters?  Are they usually premonitions?  What happened to Max in Liesel's dream?  

10.  Death's diary - Auschwitz, Mauthausen -  June 23, 1942  Your comments on Zusak's writing in this chapter?  
 

Relevant Links:
Readers' Guide Questions: Prologue; Parts I & II ;   A Brief History of German Rule;   Dachau;   Mein Kampf;   The Book Thief Metaphors ~ Our Favorite Zusak expressions;
  
  
Discussion Leaders:  JoanP & Andy

ANNIE

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #161 on: March 12, 2010, 07:14:47 AM »
There are many different forms of reactions to this unbelievable life these people are living.  We have Rosa and her gruff words but then her kindnesses to Max.  And she continues to do other peoples laundry and ironing.

 We have a truly sad Ilsa, still mourning her son who died in WWI but wanting to share her? books with Liesel. 

We have Hans, Liesel's stepfather,who is running out of work for supporting his family but trudges on, in his home, trying to keep things bearable; who is outstanding in his kindness to Liesel, helping her learn to read while spending time in the basement with her, playing his accordion. 

Isn't amazing how people carry on with their daily lives even in unordinary times?  It seems that our maker has given us an appreciation for the everyday habits that keep us sane during bad times in our lives.  One foot after another, we continue to function during the good times and the sad times.
 
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Babi

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #162 on: March 12, 2010, 08:34:06 AM »
 I don't really think so, JOAN, about the author intending to tell a
story about mother's surviving the loss of their sons. In the setting
of this book..or any war...the loss of sons is an underlying, terrible
fact. I think Liesel and what she sees and learns is the core of this
story.

Quote
"..everyday habits that keep us sane during bad times in our lives"
  How right you are, ANNIE. And a very pertinent observations here.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Laura

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #163 on: March 12, 2010, 01:23:01 PM »
Joan P asked:  Max doesn't seem to show much, if any interest in his father's accordion.  I wonder why not.  Have you noticed Hans playing it now that Max is in the house?

I think Max doesn’t have much interest in his father’s accordion because his father “vanished” when Max was very young and he never knew him.  Consequently, the accordion doesn’t have good memories for him and probably only adds to his guilt of imposing on Hans.

I don’t recall the accordion being played after Max’s arrival, but I could be wrong.

Countrymm asked:  I'm guessing Marcus Zusak is Jewish and that it appeals to him to write about Jewish people and their outlook on life.  Your thoughts on this?

I plan to read some author interviews because I m curious too, but will do so after I finish the book so as to avoid spoilers.

I was glad to see that Leisel won’t be reading Max’s copy of Mein Kampf.  As Max thought, “there was no way he’d give such propaganda to a young German girl.  That would be like the lamb handing a knife to the butcher.”  And another great metaphor.  Then he painted over some pages from Mein Kampf to make a book for Leisel.  I thought it was great that we readers were able to see the pictures and writing as it appeared in the book.  The commonalities between Leisel and Max are drawing them together.  I’m looking forward to seeing what happens with their relationship.  Lastly, not only are people able to function normally in unordinary times, as Annie pointed out, but they are able to be creative too.

JoanK

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #164 on: March 12, 2010, 03:23:26 PM »
COUNTRMM: WELCOME! What do you want to be called?

I agree that he's probably Jewish. I'm glad he's young -- we have a lot more books to look forward to, and, hopefully, he'll get even better.

JoanP

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #165 on: March 12, 2010, 04:37:15 PM »

Interesting thoughts here today.  Yes, our author is young  - thirty-something - an Australian surfer boy.  Can you believe that? JoanK, you're glad to hear hs's so young. .  When I first heard how hold he was I was astounded.   I mean, is it fair that one so young has all this talent dripping off his fingertips, 10 unique metaphors on each page....  I can certainly understand why you expected Markus Zusak to be an older, more seasoned writer with more life experience. countrymm.

We're told in his biography that  he was born in Sydney to his Austrian father, Helmut, and his German mother, Elizabeth (Lisa)), who  was born in Germany just before WWII.  She was full of stories about what it was like growing up in Germany during the war. His father was an Austrian  housepainter.
Does this couple remind you of any of the characters in The Book Thief?

Annie, it is amazing how people carry on their lives even under extreme circumstances.  Poverty is one thing.  But the consequences of hiding the Jews were so great.  Yet they managed to do that and keep it from interfering with a schoolwork, with a soccer game in the street.  Do you think there were more Jews hiding in the Himmel Street basements?  I'm wondering if the people believed that things would go back to "normal"  once this business was over, if they could just hang on.  Or did they know that life would never be the same again?

I'm curious why some of you think the author is Jewish.    Is it because he portrays Max with such  empathy?  In his interviews he tells how his mother was so affected as a child  by the acts of mercy shown by the ordinary German citizens to the Jews being marched through the town on their was to Dacha. Do you think it was just wishful thinking - to finally get into the mind of the average German citizen to understand what it was like for them at this time?  Laura, I look forward to hearing what you find when you have finished the book.  I got the impression that the story was being told from the viewpoint of the German children (non-Jewish)  who lived in Molching during the war.

Liesel and Max do seem to be growing closer as they spend more time together, don't they?  Is their bond excluding Hans?  Hans sat in this same basement painting letters on the wall to teach Liesel to read, but Max's gift for her 12th birthday surpasses that.  Interesting that he is painting over the pages of Mein Kampf.  Better than reading it.  Have you read any of it from the link in the heading.  I thought the beginning chapter on Hitler's boyhood and school experience was interesting.  I'll bring you a bit of it later.  Right now I'm going to add the simile to our growing list.  Thanks, for that, Laura.  (I'm glad Liesel isn't going to read it - too bad Max did.)

Frybabe

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #166 on: March 12, 2010, 05:51:15 PM »
Correct me if I am wrong but wasn't Hitler also born in Austria and one of the jobs he did was house painting?

JoanP

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #167 on: March 12, 2010, 06:23:26 PM »
mmm, I think you're right, Frybabe!  Not only that, he was a housepainter in Munich!

JoanK

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #168 on: March 12, 2010, 08:43:20 PM »
Hmmmm! Do you think our author was being tongue-in-cheek when he was interviewed?

joangrimes

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #169 on: March 13, 2010, 12:41:32 AM »
I have read alot about Hitler in my lifetime.  I have always read that he was Austrian, that he had Jewish blood himself and that he was always a bit or more than a bit mentally unbalanced.  This man was not in anyway a member of his so-called
Aryian Race of people.   I realize that I am older than most of you and have studied European History for most of my adult life.  But I was not aware that most people did not know these things about this man who took over Germany and was  responsible for the horrible attrocities committed in Germany in World II.  I am very glad that this group is reading this book.  I wish the whole world would read this book.  Maybe then they would look into what happened during those years.Please don't take what I have said as a condemnation of any of you.  I feel that in some way I have failed because I was a European History teacher.  
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Gumtree

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #170 on: March 13, 2010, 04:04:01 AM »
Joan Grimes - Yes, I agree about Hitler. It always seemed to me that Hitler wanted his Germany and the Germans to be everything he himself was not. I too, didn't realise that 'everyone' does not know much about Hitler the man. I haven't studied him or the period particularly but find I know much more about him than I thought I did - perhaps we've been subjected to more TV documentaries on the period.

I think Zusak is definitely tongue in cheek in reference to the 'house painting' and Hitler - I thought he (Zusak) was being a little too obvious and heavy handed with that one.

I can't find any reference to Zusak's personal religious faith - Jewish or otherwise. I have assumed him to be Christian particularly as one side of his family is from Austria and as Traudee has pointed out Austria has always been predominantly Catholic.

JoanP  says Zusak is an Australian surfer boy?  I don't think he fits that mould Joan. Nearer the mark would be an- Australian English teacher who likes to surf in his spare time - like most Aussies who live on the coast.

Off topic - JoanP - I can't believe you have 'Canberra Day' noted on your calendar. Canberra Day commemorates the naming of our capital city, Canberra. It is a public holiday in the Aust. Capital Territory but is generally very low key. These days most Aussies in other parts of the country would be unaware of it. In Canberra the day is often marked by protests from indigenous groups to focus attention on perceived inequalities and more particularly on the loss of the tribal lands on which Canberra was built. You must be using a universal diary - maybe it's the same as mine  :D
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

JoanP

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #171 on: March 13, 2010, 08:59:56 AM »
A lovely calendar, Gum - "Bon Appetit" - filled with vintage food posters.  A Christmas present.  I'm looking at it now,  -  it was printed in Maine, BUT the retail prices on the back list the US, Canada, Australia and NZ.  So, I will expect to see more of your Australian holidays as the year goes on.  A belated "happy"  Canberra Day! ;)

 I shouldn't have characterized our author as a "surfer boy" - but rather a young man who has just taken up surfing.  It was a way of expressing my surprise that our author is such a young man.

Okay, someone tell me what the "tongue in cheek" reference is that you are all referring to - I am notoriously dense.  Please help.
Were you referring to the fact that Adolf was a "house painter?  Remember I told you I've been reading "Mein Kampf"?  He actually DID paint houses -
 
Quote
"IN THE SPRING of 1912 I came at last to Munich.
In any case, this period before the War was the happiest and by far the most contented of my life. Even if my earnings were still extremely meager, ...painted only to be able to secure my livelihood or rather to enable myself to go on studying."

JoanG, your comment brought back memories of my own European History studies...which were limited to a World History class or two.  Starting way back with the Hittites and as I remember, we always ended with World War I.  In the 50's our history books did not go into World War II.  We had a hard time finishing the book, and don't remember a special additional "unit"  on more modern history.  

Nevertheless, I don't think you can take comments here as indication that we are not familiar with Hitler's program the war at this time.  Rather, I think we have been putting ourselves into the shoes of the children of Himmel St. and trying to understand this period from their perspective. Maybe I don't understand your comment that you have failed as a teacher.  If you find some time, maybe you can explain that a bit more.

I confess a desire to know more about  how the German citizens viewed Hitler's tactics and ideology during this time, especially as the war drew to a close.  And did they really believe the whole thing was going to be over, if they could just endure a bit longer?  Were they ignorant about the reality of Germany's position right up until the bombs began to fall?  Conditions seem to be deteriorating on Himmel St....the kids are so hungry, they are stealing food.  Even from the priests  =  but  weren't they described as "fat"?  

 What interests me right now as we talk of Rosa and Hans - and then Markus Zusak's parents:
 The fictitious Rosa Hubermann and Markus' mother, Lisa Zusak, both born and raised in Germany, both endured the war inside Germany.  I just assumed they were both Catholic.  And then Hans Hubermann and Helmut Zusak, both from Austria, both laborors - both housepainters...

Frybabe

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #172 on: March 13, 2010, 09:45:32 AM »
World History, wow do I remember that class. It was all names and dates with a bare gloss over, trying to cover too much in a one semester class in high school. The mid-term for this class is the only one I "crammed" for and I still got a D. A D! I was horrified. It was only years later that I was able to truly connect dates or time periods with what was going on in the world. Speaking of connecting, remember James Burke's "Connections" series?

Regarding #6: No, I got the impression that Rudy would not survive. Death made a comment, don't remember what page, about Rudy not deserving the way he died. At least I thought he was talking about Rudy's future. If I get a chance I will have to go back and find it.


countrymm

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #173 on: March 13, 2010, 12:39:25 PM »
HISTORY TESTS.  Speaking  of memorization and dates, I've always had a hard time with that.  World History in college was even worse for me than world history in high school.  I think I just didn't get the gene for good memory.  Piano recitals were always scary for me, because I feared I would get half way through a piece and forget the rest, then have to stand up, bow, and run off the stage.  Now I am learning bridge and I can't remember the cards that others have played.  Oh, well!  We all have our strengths.

MARKUS ZUSAK.  I am really enthralled with this author and plan to read more of his books.  I believe he likes to write about rebellious characters, i.e., people who stand up to the Nazis, hide Jews in their basement, steal books (ha), and generally find a way to be true to themselves in the face of adversity.  From what I have read, he has written 5 books starting at age 30 and he isn't even 35 yet.

P.S.  Zusak's father was also a house painter.

joangrimes

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #174 on: March 13, 2010, 04:41:44 PM »
Did I say World history...If I did I am sorry.  I taught Advanced Placement European History.  That is far different from World history.  The course begain in about 1450 and we certainly did study WWI and WWII.Of course it is still  a very long time to cover. Oh well I did not mean to get off onto something that might derail what we are hunting here. 
The book does put you right there in this German neighborhood at the time .   This would be an excellent book for study in a history class like I taught.  I do know that I find something that I have missed in this book with each reading.  That is what is so good about discussing the book together.  We have so many things that we missed pointed out to us.Joan Grimes
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straudetwo

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #175 on: March 13, 2010, 05:45:20 PM »
It was a very busy week here.  I barely had time to look at the posts, but none to answer,   until now.

I've told my old German school friend  about our discussion and she has expressed her admiration for our taking on this project.  The book is a bestseller also in Germany, its  title isDie Bücherdiebin (a composite noun. "Bücher = the plural of Buch, die is the feminine article, and in is the corresponding feminine suffix of the noun "Dieb").

My friend remembers the horrors of the Hitler era as I do, but she said that reading the book  would be too upsetting for her.  She confirmed what I have said in the pre-discussion : no one who did not live in Germany at that time can have even a remote idea of what life was like under a totalitarian regime.    As I look back, it seems like a tight,  gigantic net pulled over the country, like forcibly put-on, suffocating blinders. There is only one comparison: Soviet Russia under Stalin.

Mind control was total. All existing communications  (books, the press, radio, films) were under the control of (the aptly named) Propaganda Minister Dr. Joseph Goebbels, a Rhinelander, educated by the Jesuits.  He was of small build,  had a clubfoot and a silver tongue - an orator par excellence. And the people believed him! He even sold tem on the Total War (before Germany invaded Russia). Goebbels killed his wife, his six children, then himself in Hitler's bunker in Berlin as Soviet soldiers stormed the capital. Various versions exist of Hitler's last hours in the bunker in the company of Eva Braun.  Incidentally, nothing about her had been known in the land before.

Mein Kampf is a hate script of the worst order.  Not only was it required reading but we had to write an essay about it.  My father had a two-volume  copy in his library, but I was physically unable to read it.  I merely leafed through and then composed what may have been my first attempt at  "creative writing" ...  Hitler wrote the book in 1924 when he was imprisoned after the failure of the beer hall Putsch in Munich a year earlier. He was the instigator and ring leader.   (Unfortunately they let him go too early.)

The man was a megalomaniac, quite possibly insane, an agent provocateur.  All his speeches began the same way : back-tracking to the unfairness and injustices sof the Versailles Treaty.  He can still be seen ranting and raving on PBS stations and the History channel in his hoarse voice, with the rolling rrr's in his mixed Bavarian-Austrian accent.  (My instant reaction is to click the mute button.)  Why on earth would anyone want to be exposed to such destructive ideas that brought so much misery and death to millions? Why is there such a morbid fascination with such an obvious instrument of evil?   Are we seeking thrills?  

Mein Kampf is  banned in Germany and in Austria - but accessible in many countries in the world.  There has been no new publication  in Germany since 1948. The State of Bavaria, one of the states in the Federal Republic of Germany, owns the rights o the book ---  and is allegedly trying to change things , as I saw on Google to my utter dismay.
The possession and trading of Hitler memorabilia is illegal in Germany and Austria, and so it should be in my opinion.

Allow me to make something clear :  the intelligentsia,  the nobility who wished (in vain) for the return of a monarchy, and the military high command did NOT support Hitler - originally.  It is well to remember hat the two  unsuccessful assassination attempts were carried out by military officers.  They were hanged.  At the risk of being called a snob I'd like to say that H. was uneducated: he habitually mis-pronounced "Versailler Vertrag".  Those two ll's in the word are silent - as in Paella - but nobody ever had the gumption to correct him.

Frybabe, at the time there was a huge class difference in Germany. The intelligentsia dismissed Hitler - in the beginning  - because he was under-educated.  He did have artistic aspirations, and perhaps some talent. But his authoritarian father, who beat his son, sent him to a technical school instead, where H. did poorly. There was talk about some water colors he had painted, but I cannot remember any details.   Yes, the man was  referred to as MM (for mass murderer) and "house painter" among the  hopelessly stifled  opponents, though here were cells of  student resistance, and I belonged to one of them. Markus Zusak's use of this ironic term is tongue-in-cheek, I believe,  and from what I can tell, there is more irony in the story.

My answers to cardinal questions.
The existence of death camps was never common knowledge.
The disappearances generated rumors, which were ruthlessly suppressed wherever they flickered - but nothing concrete was known  - until the camps were liberated, by Russians  and  Americans troops in 1945.

Ordinary Germans could NOT, and would not dare, to hide Jewish children, adolescents, much less adults. The penalty was death for the perpetrator(s),  even the eradication of entire  families. The preferred mode was hanging.  And Jews were NOT the only victims.

Of course the world should never ever forget the Holocaust: that's why we have Spielberg's Schindler's List and now Zusak's book.  I believe Zusak intends the book as just such a remembrance.  It is more likely than not that he is Jewish.  But does it matter?  I wonder whether he  ever visit Dachau.
Years before the iron curtain fell, my husband and I visited Buchenwald near Weimar in East Germany, and I took my daughter and son there in 1977. East Germany was still under Russian occupation; getting there was fraught with difficulties,  in short a  nightmare.  But that is partially off topic and I will end right here.


JoanP

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #176 on: March 13, 2010, 07:45:14 PM »
Frybabe, that's the trouble with having Death as the Narrator of the story - he tends to let things slip before they take actually take place!  Just wait until you read the beginning of Part V for Monday.  I was quite upset at what he gave away at the beginning.  Wait till you see it!

I sure hope they teach History differently than when we were young.  Memorizing names and dates - a useless exercise. For anyone.  Countrymm, I'm missing the same gene.  No, I take that back.  I could memorize long enough to spew stuff out on a test, but not long after. The facts were not "connected"  to anything.

Do you suppose that with the computer in the classroom, things have changed?  I would think so.  JoanG, no you didn't say you taught World History - but that's the only European history I ever studied in school, buried in the history of the world!  You taught AP European Studies!  Oh good for you!  I would have loved to study European History - with you! Clearly you love the subject and I'm sure that came through to your students.

I learned today that a movie has been made of The Book Thief.  I'm not sure how I feel about that.  I don't know how the book would translate to film.  It's due to be released this year.   THere were some scenes that  would be terrific on the screen, but so much of the book is reading and rereading the words.  What do you think of this? I'll go get the trailer and you can take a look for yourself.  I think I'm going to wait until we've finished the book first - there may be spoilers, I didn't watch it all.

Traudee, I can't tell you how good it is for you to join us and share this memorable and painful time of your life with us.  Thank you!  I'm going to go read your post slowly and will be back later to comment.  Thank you!  Thank you!

 

JoanP

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #177 on: March 13, 2010, 08:47:11 PM »
Quote
"The book is a bestseller also in Germany!"

Have you heard anything about  the German reaction to the book - those who lived through this time?
 I'm thinking that Markus Zusak had remarkable first-person stories from his mother as his resource - but she was only as child during the war.  Her memories would be the memories of a child.  We are getting an idea of how this particular child had to grow up fast as her foster parents tried to impress on her the danger she was in whenever she opened her mouth outside her hom.  I can think of only one thing worse than living in the suffocating and dangerous atmosphere - and that is being a parent at the time.

Quote
"And the people believed him! (Goebbels). He even sold tem on the Total War (before Germany invaded Russia)."Traude

Traude
, did they believe him and in Hitler's ideology right up to the end?

Quote
Mein Kampf is a hate script of the worst order. Hitler wrote the book in 1924 when he was imprisoned after the failure of the beer hall Putsch in Munich a year earlier.Traude
 
  Mein Kampf - My Struggle.  I must admit I thought the title was  My Memoirs, but now know it refers to his struggle.  What exactly was his "struggle"?

Quote
" Are we seeking thrills?" Traude


I can't answer for others, but no, I don't believe we are seeking thrills watching this man on those documentaries.  Rather, I think we are trying to understand how this man with so little charisma was able to command such complete resignation.    Did his rantings make sense to those who listened?  Did most people feel the way he did about racial cleansing?  Or were they afraid of him and the military might at his command, perhaps?


Quote
Mein Kampf is  banned in Germany and in Austria." Traude
-

Traudee, I read that there is an official edition of Mein Kampf - with explanatary footnotes - due to  be distributed in Germany in 2015.  I read too that this new edition met with the approval of Jewish leaders.  I'll try to find that link and post it.  I think it was an article in the UK's Telegraph.  It seemed to be solid reporting.

Quote
There were cells of  student resistance, and I belonged to one of them. Traude[/b]

Can you tell how widespread these cells were, Traudee, or were you unaware of others?  Was it just students who actively resisted, or were there others - older people?  You say the intelligentsia dismissed H. in the beginning.  Then what happened?
 
"The existence of death camps was never common knowledge. Traude".
That is a relief - can you imagine your life if you knew what was going on in Dachau for example, if you lived in Munich?

Quote
"Ordinary Germans could NOT, and would not dare, to hide Jewish children, adolescents, much less adults."

That is important for us to know.  Either the Hubermann family is an extraordinary family, or the story is Markus Zusak's fiction.   With so many similarities between his own parents and Rosa and Helmut Zusak, I tend to believe that some of what he is writing is autobiographical.  But again, that's only my feelings on the matter.
Somewherer else I read that there were many Jews hidden in basements at the time.  But I can't find the source, so shouldn't bring it up .
Which reminds me - PBS is doing a production of The Diary of Anne Frank in April. It will  on Holocaust Remembrance Day.  PBS  is our  Reading Promotion Partner in the Library of Congress.  Because of this, they are making copies of the book available to our readers here at SeniorLearn - free of charge.  If you would like a copy, email me and I'll send it as soon as I receive them...
I can't remember how long ago I read this book.  

Traude
, words cannot adequately thank you enough for sharing this time with us.  (Someday, I think you really ought to read this book.)


 


straudetwo

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #178 on: March 13, 2010, 09:10:09 PM »
JoanP, it took me a long time to compose and edit my earlier post. I'll answer yours more filly tomorrow.
Yes, there was at least one more cell, in Munich, and how I came to know about it is another story.
Meanwhile here's the URL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Rose

straudetwo

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #179 on: March 13, 2010, 09:14:14 PM »

straudetwo

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ALF43

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #181 on: March 14, 2010, 09:48:07 AM »
 Good heavens!  I am absent for one day and come back to find a full page of thoughts and opinions.  I am off to church but will be home to check out all of these urls that Traude has provided for us.  Who better than someone who was forced to endure these horrors can we trust?  Thank you Traude.  I can't believe that come tomorrow we will begin another section- there is so much to point out in Zusak's prose.
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

Babi

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #182 on: March 14, 2010, 10:25:56 AM »
 FRYBABE, I think that emphasis on names, events and dates is why I felt
I learned more real history reading well researched historical fiction.
That always gave me more background and insight into the events.

COUNTRYMM, a suggestion on remembering the cards. Don't try to remember
them all, just keep track of the high cards. ('Okay, that's the queen/ace
gone and I've got the jack. King still out.)

 TRAUDE, thank you for those links. It hurt to read that six students
of the White Rose lost their lives. I'm glad to know the White Rose
students are still honored.  I know something of Bonhoeffer, and I read
the Niemoller poem many years ago. It made an impression that has stayed
with me since.  I can't tell you how much your passionate posts are expanding
my understanding of the average German citizen in those days.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

Babi

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #183 on: March 14, 2010, 10:43:47 AM »
  After Traude's statement that the ordinary German would not have dared hide a Jew, I
decided I needed to re-check my impressions on that subject.  I found that most of that
had indeed occurred outside the boundaries of Germany.  I found it in Poland, the Netherlands,
Demark.  Even the rescue of Jews by Muslims.  I noted the following and included two of the
links.  I was aware of such activity in the Netherlands and Denmark's support and defense of
their Jewish population, but wholly unaware of the activity in Poland and by the Muslims. Poland,
with it's history of pogroms, was particularly surprising.

 Jewish children were hidden in the Netherlands in WWII to save them from
deportation. (Institute for Global Jewish Affairs)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rescue_of_Jews_by_Poles_during_
the_Holocaust#cite_note-Lukas-1  (Grouped by nationality, Poles represent
the biggest number of people who rescued Jews during the Holocaust.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6-df9L0aDI (a video lecture on Non-Jews
Who Helped Jews During the War.)

 For the Muslim interventions, check out the book "Besa". You can find it on Amazon.
"I go to books and to nature as a bee goes to the flower, for a nectar that I can make into my own honey."  John Burroughs

countrymm

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #184 on: March 14, 2010, 12:09:19 PM »
I'm so grateful for the links and background information our readers are providing.  Thanks to all.

OFF TOPIC completely.  Spring is coming and it's almost here.

Check out Molly and McGee, wild barn owls in San Marcos, CA, near me.  Molly is sitting on 6 eggs. The owlets are supposed to start hatching on Monday.  Daddy McGee flies into the nest too.  The nest is 14 ft. high.

People are watching the live feed from all over the world. Here is the link for you.

    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/the-owl-box

Frybabe

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #185 on: March 14, 2010, 12:12:29 PM »
Until I read this book, I had no idea that  Hitler Youth membership was compulsory.

Traude
Thank you so much for the links. I knew there was some resistance within Germany, but knew virtually nothing about it. Being a part of the resistance was an exceedingly dangerous and brave thing for you to do. Thank you for sharing.



JoanK

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #186 on: March 14, 2010, 01:04:33 PM »
TRAUDE: thank you so much -- I can hardly understand how difficult this must be for you. But I believe strongly that everyone needs to know what happened there, so it can never be repeated.

And thank you, countrymm, for the owl box -- I will watch it eagerly. Do you love birds, too?

Laura

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #187 on: March 14, 2010, 01:58:05 PM »
Personally, I have no desire to read Mein Kampf.  I like to read stories of people’s experiences during World War II, most of them fictional.  I am not interested in the politics, the military, etc, but, rather, the human stories.  That is the way I am approaching this book, trying to understand the lives of individuals during the time.

A wonderful non-fiction book of stories which I highly recommend is Small Miracles of the Holocaust.  Here is a synopsis from the publisher:

From the authors of the bestselling Small Miracles series comes this inspirational collection of over 50 stories - each with the upbeat twist ending that has become the trademark of this remarkable series.
 
The authors, both second-generation Holocaust survivors, have culled stories from before, during, and after the Holocaust that demonstrate the full strength and power of the human spirit. 

 
Stories reaffirming that nothing truly happens by accident…
 
Even during the worst of times small miracles did happen - and the legacies of those individuals live on.


http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Small-Miracles-of-the-Holocaust/Yitta-Halberstam/e/9781599214078/?itm=1&USRI=small+miracles+of+the+holocaust

ALF43

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #188 on: March 14, 2010, 02:30:05 PM »
Annie-
Quote
One foot after another, we continue to function during the good times and the sad times.

That’s what this story is all about- surviving a revolution.  How could these people withstand the loss of their loved ones and for many, reversals of their fortune?  The whole political structure was altered and everyone had to stand by with nothing but hope in their hearts.  I agree with Laura, it was good that Liesel was not allowed to read that drivel in Mein Kampf and Max 's drawings led to a commanality with the girl.

Joan thought it meant My memoirs, and honestly I always thought it meant “my camp.”  Yes, Joan, that is a question that I would like answered as well- just what did Hitler consider to be his struggles?
 
JoanG-I must be different, I loved all of those European history lessons and trying to plot the births and deaths of kings and Queens with their varied families.
I loved anything pertaining to history and had no problem memorizing dates for tests.  Hand me a math test, on the other hand and it made a striking difference in my grades.

Laura-Even during the worst of times small miracles did happen - and the legacies of those individuals live on.  That is portrayed by Sir Martin Gilbert who testified to that in the link that Babi left for us. He noted the nobelest of people from all different facet that assisted the Jews.  He remarked that there were some thatt had to hide these facts from their own family to protect everyone.

Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

ALF43

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #189 on: March 14, 2010, 02:40:08 PM »
I felt it nauseating that a German governor stated that the populace would be exposed to typhus, the dreaded disease that the "Jews carried" and offered rewards for flushing them out.  Rewards of flour or salt or booze for a human life!   How much money would you betray a person for, even if you were starving?  Terrible cruelties were inflicted but the genuine goodness of man shone through the dark days.  The righteousness and honor of people broke through here and there.
  
Thank you Traude and Babi for providing these links showing us that there was even honor amongst thieves as they ingeniously secreted some Jewish folks in the sewers, circuses and zoos.  
Traude- You said that the Germans did not know of the existance of the concentration camps?  Where in the world did they think these Jews were being sent ?  Did they honestly believe they were being "sent east" to work slave labor and?  What did they think when none of them returned and their homes were destroyed and desecrated?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

straudetwo

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #190 on: March 14, 2010, 04:05:25 PM »
Andy, I can't answer that question. As I said before , there were only indistinct rumors, nothing concrete, ever.

People lived in a climate of fear and intimidation, worried about their daily existence - the empty shelves of grocery stores and useless ration cards.  Informers were everywhere.  If you were overheard saying, for example, in 1943 or 1944, "I can't see how we can win the final vitory ...", you were a goner. It happened to a classmate of mine in Heidelberg.

Rüdiger was his name.  He was one of very  few men in an overwhelmingly female student body.  He was unfit for the draft because he had a pneumothorax.  Some time in the spring of 1944,  his parents came for a visit and stayed at the Hotel Europa in Heidelberg.  hey had lunch there togeyher, and it is likely that they discussed the war, which was going so bady.  We never knew what happened, but apparently he was overheard as expressing  doubt of the "final victory, in a loud voice,  fueled perhaps by a glass of wine -too many. He went tow ash his hands and was not seen thereafter.

Indoctrination began early: members of the Hitler Youth were encouraged to denounce their parents(!!!) if they didn't tow the party line.
It was the opposite in my family.  My mother , a perfectionist,  who was hard to live with and impossible to please, loved the Führer. It's too long a story.  Suffice it to say that in September of 1943, when I was thome for a semester break, we were bombed out of our home in a suburb  in the city of of Mannheim.  The home as inhabitabke and we we were invited into  the undamaged villa of my best friend's parents. (It was later requisitioned and became the home of a US officer.)
I returned to finish my studies in Heidelberg.   The circumstances of my parents'  resettlement  in an out-of-the-way village are too "involved" to be related briefly.

By 1944 train schedules were no longer in effect. Endless hours of waiting were a given.  Daylight attacks by British Spitfire planes were to be expected.  On one occasion I arrived  in the middle of the night at the (awful) abode. My mother angrily confronted me, saying:"Why didn't you write to us?  And what have you been doing? Whatever it is, you had better stop or I will inform  it or I will inform the Gestapo." What can one say to that?

The fact is that I  had written.  I could only surmise that my mail had been censured and that I was under suspicion.  It was true, I soon learned.



ALF43

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #191 on: March 14, 2010, 04:23:06 PM »
Oh dear Lord, I can not imagine a parent turning in their own child to the Gestapo.  I feel so bad for you Traudee.  An injustice such as that one is not easily forgotten, nor forgiven.
Nor can I imagine , even with an early doctrination turning in one of my parents for any type of infraction.  Did people pray together?  Were the churches infiltrated with the Gestapo thugs, as well?
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

kidsal

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #192 on: March 15, 2010, 07:07:54 AM »
Been reading through the comments on people who helped the Jews escape Germany.  Not mentioned is a Japanese man who worked in the Japanese embassy in Berlin.  Japan by that time was an ally of Germany.  He forged papers allowing many Jews to immigrate to Japan where there was no discrimination against the Jews. He was suspected and then recalled to Japan.   After the war these Jews moved on to the US and Israel.  A documentary was made of his life but I can't remember the title.

ALF43

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #193 on: March 15, 2010, 09:13:38 AM »
Good morning. 
We learn right off the rip that Rudy finally receives that first kiss from Liesel and sadly it is at the time of his "decimation."
Do you believe what Zusak says -"Even death has a heart?"
Books are the bees which carry the quickening pollen from one to another mind.  ~James Russell Lowell

PatH

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #194 on: March 15, 2010, 10:34:56 AM »
Do you believe what Zusak says -"Even death has a heart?"
Certainly Death, our narrator, has a heart.  He's effective as a narrator, but he doesn't quite come together for me as Death itself.

PatH

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #195 on: March 15, 2010, 10:39:21 AM »
This is a very minor point, but I liked the touch that you can read bits of incompletely painted overMein Kampf in the background of The Standover Man.

Gumtree

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #196 on: March 15, 2010, 11:03:59 AM »
PatH - I agree about Death - he/she/it has too many human attributes -another instance of the way we always create in our own image.

I really think it is the minor points that make this such a good novel. They all combine into a whole that is greater than the sum...
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

ANNIE

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #197 on: March 15, 2010, 11:05:32 AM »
I have finished "The Book Thief" and really liked it.  Beautifully written and well presented.  I think I will look for "Nella's Last War".

Has anyone noticed that there are a plethora of books out about the folks who lived in Europe during WWII?  Also, when I was in the library yesterday, they had a book up on the "new arrivals" display which is about a German submarine captain during WWII and what the war looked like from the other side.

Scanning the TV yesterday, I came upon one our History channels which was presenting German officers from WWII and their take on the war.
"No distance of place or lapse of time can lessen the friendship of those who are thoroughly persuaded of each other's worth." Robert Southey

Gumtree

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #198 on: March 15, 2010, 11:23:37 AM »
Adoannie:  I wonder if the book you saw at the library was one written by Fritz Otto Busch?  He wrote many books relating to the German navy and its battles ' Drama of the Scharnhorst' and Story of the Prinz Eugen' come to mind immediately.  Busch was originally a naval man himself and became a prolific writer and published perhaps as many as 80 novels - war history - children's books etc. He also translated English books into German.
Reading is an art and the reader an artist. Holbrook Jackson

Frybabe

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Re: Book Thief by Markus Zusak ~ March Book Club Online
« Reply #199 on: March 15, 2010, 12:27:36 PM »