Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society - by Shaffer & Barrows

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  everyone is welcome to join in.

The year is 1946.  Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war."  Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one  that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war.

Imagine a book club in a place where there is not a single book store! This is exactly what Mary Ann Shaffer and her niece, Annie Barrows have done as they draw us into  the engaging relationship betweeen Juliet Aston and the  Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society.  Perhaps their story explains the popularity of book clubs everywhere.

Discussion Schedule: Feb. 1-7   *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946 Feb. 8-14    *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946 Feb. 15-21   *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946 Feb. 22-28     *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946

Topics for Discussion during Week 1

1. What did you learn about Juliet Ashton  from the exchange of letters? Is she real to you or a ficticious character?
2. What was it about Charles Lamb that attracted Dawsey Adams to his work? 
3. What part did Elizabeth McKenna play in the creation of the literary society? 
4. Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate  in Juliet's article on the society for the Times? 
    What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?
5. What do their reading choices reveal about the personalities of the members of the Society?  What do your own choices  reveal about you?
6. What did you learn about the German occupation of Guernsey in these pages?  How do you think the Islanders managed to survive the   occupaton for five years? 
7. "Reading good books ruins you for enjoying bad ones."  Do you agree with Isola? Will you share  your favorite  references to books and reading in these pages?
8. What did you find especially meaningful in this first section; what surprised you, riled you, or tickled your fancy?

Related Links: Author's Biography; Visit Guernsey ;   A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941. ; Charles Lamb - Selected Essays

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP and Pedln

[JudeS]

Hey Joan,
You stole my thunder re: The Golliwog's Cake Walk.  Just as I was listening to Debussy play his piece you were writing about it.
Two minds but with a single thought.  Anyhow I will add that the piece is not outmoded . If you go to Google and put in the name you will find many versions of the piece.  The first one ,by Barbara Tomaskova, had more than 25,000 downloads.

I actually listened to four different pianists playing the piece and my favorite was hearing Rachmaninoff playing.  He put something into it that made me really sit up and take notice.

Thanks to those of you who tried to convince me that the Lamb essay was funny.  I guess if I had never read anything else , like some of the folk in the Novel, I might find it funny but it really is bizarre.  Having to burn down a house to roast a pig. No chuckle emerges from me.

Jude

[JoanK]

I love used book stores. We had a good one near where I lived in Maryland. The family that owned it gave jobs to retired Seniors who loved books, and you could have great conversations with them on the way out. I knew every used bookstore in the area, and most of the propriators.

Practically the first thing I did when I movedto california is look for used bookstores in the suburb where I live. So far I haven't found one that's wheelchair accessible. I order used books online. Whenever Powells has it, I order from them. That's a great used bookstore in Portland, Oregon.

[bellamarie]

Do you think Sidney has romantic interest in Juliet?

pg. 22... 26th January, 1946, Sidney says about Markham, "he's here to beguile England's finest authors with visions of plenty and prosperiety in America.  I didn't know his technique included roses and camellias, but I'm not surprised.  He's always had more than his fair share of what we call cheek and Americans call can-do spirit.  Just wait til you see him__he's been the undoing of stronger women than you, including my secretary."  He goes on to say.."He's after you, Juliet, no doubt about it.  Shall I challenge him to a duel? He would undoubtedly kill me, so I'd rather not.  My dear, I can't promise you plenty or prosperiety or even butter, but you do know that you're S & S'___especially Stark's__most beloved author, don't you?'

As of March 1st, where we stop off reading, there has been no correspondence from Sidney.  Although, Juliet first assumes he is upset about Reynolds, she then suggests he is off helping a drunken friend.  Is Sidney okay, is my question?  I do hope nothing has happened to him.  Even if he was upset about Markham, I can't see him going this long not answering Juliet's letters.  I am not certain if he has romantic feelings for Juliet, but he certainly does not want her to be charmed by Reynolds and leave his publishing house, or get hurt and disillusioned by him.  They have been friends forever, so I suppose he is more concerned about Juliet being swept off her feet by a smooth talking, handsome American.  Afterall, the flowers, compliments of her writing, dancing and fine restraunts seem to be working.


How did  that particular group get invited to Mrs. Maugery's for the pig roast?

pg. 28..Dawsey says, " She had a pig, a hidden pig, and she invited me to join in the feast with her and her friends."

pg.48.. Amelia writes to Juliet and says, "Dawsey has told you that the Society was invented as a ruse to keep the Germans from arresting my dinner guests: Dawsey, Isola, Eben, Ramsey, John Booker, Will Thisbee, and our dear Elizabeth McKenna, who manufactured the story on the spot, bless her quick wits and silver tongue."  Later she goes on to explain in order for the Society to appear truthful to the Commandent, "Then we strolled from house to house__looking as carefree and casual as we could__in order to alert the others, to come that evening and chose a book to read." She says, Dawsey had been her neighbor for 30 years and had never spoken to him, Isola and Eben was a dear friend, Will Thisbee was only an acquaintance and John Booker was nearly a stranger, for he had just arrived when the Germans came.  It was Elizabeth we had in common.  Without her urging we would have never have thougt to invite them to share my pic and the GLPPPS would never have drawn a breath."

How on earth did  it occur to Elizabeth McKenna - on the spur of the moment, to make up the book club excuse to explain why they were breaking curfew?

From Amelia's description of Elizabeth, she had, "quick wit and  a silver tongue"

I am hoping to hear more from Elizabeth, herself in the coming pages.  Maybe she can help us know more, as to how she thought to say a literary group.

[JoanP]

Jude, I just had to go back  and listen to Rachmaninoff - you're right!  He plays Debussy's Golliwog Cakewalk even better than Debussy himself!  Maybe it was a better recording...
JoanK - do you know if that used bookstore is still in operation?  What a great idea to hire Seniors to work there!  I got to thinking how much fun it would be if we all lived in the same town - talking at our f2f bookclub meeting and deciding to open such a bookstore ourselves!  Steph has experience - she could get us organized.  But how to pay the rent?
It's fun to think about though, isn't it?
Thanks for picking up the questions from the table, Bellamarie!  I'd forgotten that Sidney suggested the duel with Markham Reynolds.  (What sort of a name is that?)  I'd say if Sidney has a thing for Juliet, she is totally unaware of it.  I remember thinking at the start that he was a softy of a boss.  Then to discover that she has been best friends with his family, his sister, since she was a kid in boarding school.  No wonder they are close friends - relaxed and easy with one another.  But I think Juliet has a different idea of what romance is supposed to be.

I love the way the author(s) are revealing bits and pieces through the letters of so many different characters, don't you?   You just know that some little detail is going to be further explained in future letters.  I've learned to patiently accept that. 
I can understand Mrs. Maugery inviting Adam Dawsey to the pig roast - he was a pig farmer, he'd slaughter her pig. Except she had never spoken to him before this night.   But the other guests - her "friends" seemed an unlikely group to invite to the party too.  Thanks for bringing us the passage where we learn that they all had Elizabeth in common.  Elizabeth is quite the mover on the Island, isn't she?  Shall we keep a tally?
It was Elizabeth who helped Mrs. Maugery put the party together, it was Elizabeth who persuaded the guests to venture out after curfew and then it was Elizabeth who quickly, on the spur of the moment, thought of the unlikely excuse for being out so late - a literary society.  And the German soldiers believed her - believed they were discussing Elizabeth and her German Garden.   I know this is fiction, though I keep forgetting, but what language do the Guernsians speak?  Or did the German soldiers speak English?
I had assumed that Mrs. Maugery was the leader of the group.  She's the one who must approve Juliet's request to interview the literary society for the Times article.  But maybe the real leader was Elizabeth - before she left Guernsey.  Why did Mrs. Maugery hestitate to approve of the interview?  Did she not want publicity?

[bellamarie]

Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate  in Juliet's article on the society for the Times?

pg.  38  Mrs. Maugery says, "I realize that our name, the Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Society, is an unusual one and could easily be subjected to ridicule.  Would you assure me you will not be tempted to do so?  The Society members are very dear to me, and I do not wish them to be perceived as objects of fun by your readers."

Since Mrs. Maugery  states a friend of hers had sent her a copy of Izzy Bickerstaff Goes to War,  and while she found the book informative as it was entertaining and amusing, she was concerned about "the amusing tone."  Amelia did not want Juliet to use their Society for fodder to her readers.
 
What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?

I believe the references from Bella Taunton and Rev. Simon Simples is what convinced Amelia to trust Juliet.  Although, Juliet was a tad offended by her suspicions, she understood, and complied to honor her request to prove her worthiness.  I feel this allowed Amelia to trust Juliet with their Society.  The fact that both references said Juliet is an honest person, reassured Amelia that she could trust Juliet.  I also think becaue Dawsey was very much trusting, and showed how he was willing to ask the Society for Juliet, made an impression on Amelia.  She menions, "Dawsey has never asked for anything for himself."

[Babi]

"How on earth did  it occur to Elizabeth McKenna - on the spur of the moment, to make up the book club excuse to explain why they were breaking curfew?"

JOANP, perhaps a book club was the most innocent, disarming reason she could think of for a group of people to be assembling in the evening. After all, what could be more harmless than people discussing a book?

  I got a message from my library what they have a copy of Seneca's Essays and letters waiting for me.  I'll pick it up this morning.  While waiting for the book, I looked up Seneca in Bartlett's Quotations, and guess what?!  Shakespeare must have read Seneca.  The first quote I read was "What fools these mortals be!"

  It was John Booker who introduced Seneca.   After reading what John  had to say about the essays of Seneca, I found I want to read them myself.  “He was a Roman philosopher who wrote leters to imaginary friends telling them how to behave for the rest of their lives.  Maybe that sounds dull, but the letters aren’t--they’re witty.”
  And what to you think of this remark?:  “I think you learn more if you’re laughing at the same time.”   I need to think about that a while.

[pedln]

JoanP, thanks for the link to the Cake Walk.  It took a while, but I finally heard it in entirety.  Will delay the Rachmaninoff until I get broadband.  Unfortunately, dial-up is slowly becoming the bane of my existence.

Bunting’s Model Occupation finally arrived.  About language – surprisingly, in 1939,1940, many of the rural residents spoke Norman French, although this was slowly changing as more English speakers moved in.  Bunting points out that many of the rural residents had never left their parish, some had been no farther than St. Peter Port. For our novel, we would assume they all spoke English.

When the Germans arrived, hoping to make all islanders true members of Europe’s Third Reich, it was their plan that everyone would learn German.  They ordered 500 copies of  ‘Living German’ to be printed and set up voluntary classes for both children and adults.  In 1942, they made German compulsory for all schoolchildren aged 10 and older.  In 1943 they required four periods of 40 minutes duration per week – this at a time when schools were reducing their hours due to fuel shortages.

As you read Eben’s letter dated Feb. 28 you probably noted h is comments about the Germans shooting at lifeboats and his references to the island being left undefended. Bunting also speaks of that.

Re:  Elizabeth, the common link.  This makes sense.  She had more or less been given the run of the island (or the parish, anyway) since she was a child.  (Miss A. Addison gives the impression that she was wild, harum scarum.)  My impression of that is that as a child she took interest in everything and everyone around her.  It does not surprise me at all that she was acquainted with everyone in St. Martin parish, even if they did not know one another well.

[Steph]

Love reading all about the book.. NOw if UPS would just get it to me.. Sigh

[bellamarie]

Steph, Hang in there, I am sure you will receive your book before long.  I have a habit of using direct quotes when answering questions or making points, so I hope this is helping you follow along. 

 

[bellamarie]

JoanP...

But maybe the real leader was Elizabeth - before she left Guernsey.

Seems our Elizabeth had a colorful life.  Here is a list of some of the things I have conjectured from these people. 
Elizabeth is:
From Amelia:
Quick wit and silver tongue.
Manufactured the story of the Literary group.(Dawsey and Amelia)
A person of action.  pg. 49. "Elizabeth appeared in my kitchen and asked, "How many books have you got?"   "After I am done at the Commandment's Office, we'll go to Foxs' Bookshop and buy them out."
From Dawsey:
Risk taker
Decison maker, Elizabeth decided not to stay at Amelia's, so they went out after curfew.
Isn't tall.
Had book knowledge, and said a poem. "Is it so small a thing to have enjoyed the sun, to have lived light in the spring, to have loved, to have thought, to have done, to have advanced true friends?"
Stood right up to the soldiers.
Made up lies and "the soldier smilled back at her.  Elizabeth is like that."
From Isola:
"my dear friend Elizabeth McKenna."
Is in a prison in France. pg.53
Had a four yr. old daughter Kit McKenna (no mention of a husband)
Arrested by the Germans for hiding a poor slave worker from Poland.
From Adelaide:
Not an islander.
"Despite her fine airs, she is merely a jumped-up-servant from the London home of Sir Ambrose Ivers, R.A. (Royal Academy)."
Daughter of a housekeeper.
Mother died when she was 14 yrs. old
Sir Amrose kept her after her mother died. He proposed her for a scholarship to the Slade School of Fine Art.
Sinful and lack of humility, wild thing, roaming unkempt about the island, no household chores, no gloves, no shoes, no stockings.  Going out on fishing boats with rude men.  Spying on decent people through her telescope. Decay of standards.
"She is not the selfless heroine that some people seem to think."

Wow! I can't wait to see when and if Elizabeth returns from prison.  It is certain a character of this magnitude must return.  Indeed without her the GLAPPPS would never have came about.

[JoanR]

Thanks, Pedln, for the information on the language.  I knew that the older Guernsey folk spoke a patois of French and English but had no idea of the enforced German during the occupation.

I was curious about Seneca so looked him up.  He was a tutor  to Nero (!!) and then later after Nero ascended to rule, he became the emperor’s political advisor but after about 8 years, when Nero became increasingly tyrannical and unstable, he retired and devoted himself to his philosophical works.

I found his Epistles on line and something suitable to our time for sure!
In “On Discursiveness in Reading” .  He says,”It is not the man who has too little ,but the man who has too much, that is poor”  The proper limit to wealth is first to have what is necessary and, second, to have what is enough.
Let’s tell that to the Wall Street bankers!

Have 2 more parts of " Island at War" to watch.  There are parts of it that seem to be taken from "The Book of Ebenezer..." or could they both be taken from history?  Anyone know?

[JudeS]

Question 5-Part 2: How did the Islanders manage to survive the occupation for five years?

Like other conquered countries in Europe the Islanders learned to survive on less and less. Possibly the title of the book points to the fact that they even designed a dessert out of potatoes when nothing else was available.

By 1945 the German soldiers were starving too.  Even the German soldiers in Germany were starving (see Gunter Grass's Autobiography).

However the Guernseyans were lucky that they didn't have to watch their children die of starvation or from lack of medicine.  The children had been evacuated to England.  Also many of the young men had joined the British Army.  Therefore mostly women and older men bore the brunt of the occupation.  They used their wits to stay alive.  Although life was miserable we don't hear of many folks dying of hunger.  In fact the situation helped some folks to fill their souls with books and new idea in order to forget their aching bellies.

To see how people survive in even worse circumstances see the movie "Defiance". It is a true story of four Jewish brothers who managed to save 1,200 other people while hiding out from the Nazis and living in the freezing forests of Bielo-Russia from1940-1945.

Jude

 

[JoanP]

Jude, I think the fact that these Islanders stuck together, worked together to  get through the occupation was important, don't you?
How else do you think they got through impossibly tough times?
JoanR, are you getting that message from Islands at War?

Do you see similarities between Juliet and Elizabeth?   Hadn't we come to think of  Juliet as the protagonist in the novel?  Maybe it's Elizabeth.  Will she return to the story, will Juliet come to the islands to take her place, perhaps?  (Don't tell if you've read ahead, as some of us have not.) 

I 'm not surprised that a woman like Adelaide disapproved of  the high-spirited, Elizabeth.  As a child she had the run of the island...barelegged, barefoot, answering to no one.  And now she has a child, with no father on the scene, herself in France in prison.   

Bellamarie, she was resourceful, wasn't she? I had forgotten that it was Elizabeth who went to Mr. Fox's book shop and cleared the shelves to supply books for the literary society.  Her selections turned out to be good choices.

   I suppose a book club is as good an excuse as any to explain why this disparate group is out together after curfew, Babi. Do you believe that Elizabeth and her German Garden is a real book title - or one that she made up on the spur of the moment? 
Goodness - look what I just found -   
Elizabeth and her German Garden

Pedln, Model Occupation should prove invaluable to us.  So, the rural inhabitants of Guernsey spoke Norman French - aren't these folks rural?  Or do those who live near the coast, near St. Peter Port speak English?  French or English, how do they communicate with the Germans.  Even if the kids were required to learn German, can you see Elizabeth McKenna or Dawsey Adams sitting in German classes?  Maybe they did - and they just didn't write about them in their letters.  Or do you think the Germans spoke English?

JoanR - I found this source of Seneca's letters - the letters of Seneca - I'm definitely interested in him.

[Ella Gibbons]

JOANP:  Ann has asked me to inform you that she is having computer problems.  She hopes to have her computer up and running again by this coming Monday.

[kiwilady]

4. Why does Mrs. Maugery hesitate to have the Society participate  in Juliet's article on the society for the Times? 
She is suspicious of Juliet’s motive at first. She does not want Juliet’s article to demean the Society on account of the strange name of the Literary society. It had become a serious discussion group by the time Juliet had contacted her.
   
What do you think finally convinced her to approve of the interviews?
She finally approved of the Societies participation in Juliet’s article after she receives the two references. One of  which was brutally honest. The brutally honest reference proved to Mrs Maugery that Juliet has been very open with her. She will represent the society in an ethical way.

[Gumtree]

Babi wrote

I looked up Seneca in Bartlett's Quotations, and guess what?! Shakespeare must have read Seneca

Indeed he did, Babi, Seneca's plays were translated into English around 1560-70 and published as Tenne Tragedies which fundamentally are a retelling of the great Greek tragedies. His work had a huge and widespread  influence upon the Elizabethan mind and especially the Elizabethan form of tragedy.-

Seneca style and use of language influenced Elizabethan diction because the poets tried to emulate his rather grand style which in turn led the way to the development of the blank verse of Shakespeare (its highest point). It was a style which became in itself Elizabethan.

An important legacy from Seneca lies in the structure of his plays which were divided into the 5 acts ( Exposition - Anticipation - Confrontation - Partial Execution - Completion) which nowadays we find so common as part of the basic pattern of many plays from the Elizabethan period. 

It is many years since I read Seneca but still I remember this ditty associated with him - can't recall the author....

Sophocles read Aeschylus,
Euripides read Sophocles,
Seneca read Euripides,
Shakespeare read Seneca,
Everyone else read Shakespeare

[Gumtree]

JoanP You got me with the link to Elizabeth and her German Garden.  I had of course known of Elizabeth van Arnim as a writer but only through her relationship to Katherine Mansfield - Can't recall reading anything by her and the title of her book didn't ring any bells.

Eizabeth Van Arnim's mother was a Lassetter which is a name famous here through the  prospector of that name and his legendary lost reef of gold. Lassetters Lost Reef was /is believed to be a fabulous gold deposit located somewhere in the desert near the MacDonnell Ranges in Central Australia. Men have lost their lives searching for it. It still fascinates those susceptible to its lure.

So, now I'm wondering how  the  Elizabeth character in our book knew about Elizabeth and her German Garden so well that the title just popped into her head when she was in a tight corner. Was the book so popular that everyone had read it or knew of it? Would she have read it as the daughter of a servant working in the big house? Who was Elizabeth's  father ? H'mmm

[kiwilady]

I wondered if Elizabeth had just made up the name and it was a coincidence!

My grandaughters new school (An all girl Roman Catholic College for ages 11-18) offers the choice of Classics in the Senior School. I am glad that when the time comes she will have that choice. Not many schools today offer Classical studies.

Carolyn

[bellamarie]

JoanP,

Do you believe that Elizabeth and her German Garden is a real book title - or one that she made up on the spur of the moment? 
Goodness - look what I just found -   
Elizabeth and her German Garden

JoanP, what a great find!

Well, now this sheds a whole new light on things.  Now that we know this is a real book, not one made up out of nowhere, it certainly tells us more about Elizabeth.  Its a bit ironic how Mary Anne Shaffer, has used the name Elizabeth, and then has her mention this particular book, which was written by, Elizabeth von Arnim.  Strangely enough, for the past couple of days, I have been noticing how Mary Anne  has taken so many quotes from famous writers, and used in this book.  Now, here she has taken a true writer and made her a character.  Or at least it appears so.

JoanP,Do you see similarities between Juliet and Elizabeth?   Hadn't we come to think of  Juliet as the protagonist in the novel?  Maybe it's Elizabeth.   Will she return to the story, will Juliet come to the islands to take her place, perhaps?  (Don't tell if you've read ahead, as some of us have not.) 

I'm coming up with a theory, and shall see where it takes me.

I can barely wait, to move on to our next reading assignment.  It took great restraint not to peek today.  This just popped into my head....hmmm what do I make of it?

"Oh what a tangled web we weave,
When first we practise to deceive!"
Sir Walter Scott, Marmion, Canto vi. Stanza 17.
Scottish author & novelist (1771 - 1832)

[bellamarie]

Oh dear, one last thought before I retire for the night.  After Dawsey speaks of Elizabeth making up the story and mentioning the book's title, he says,  "the soldier smiled back at her. Elizabeth is like that."

Now, I ask, was it Elizabeth he was smiling about or the title she chose?

JoanP,

Was the book so popular that everyone had read it or knew of it?

I'm sensing the book was popular to those interested in literature.  pg. 50 "The Commandment announced that he too,was a lover of literature__might he, with a few like_minded officers, sometimes attend meetings?"

I think Elizabeth chose that title, knowing it was witty, and about the Germans.  She was indeed brave standing up to the soldiers.

"Arnim’s husband had increasing debts and was eventually sent to prison for fraud. This was when she created her pen name `Elizabeth' and launched her career as a writer by anonymously publishing her semi-autobiographical, brooding yet satirical Elizabeth and her German Garden. (1898) It would be such a success as to be reprinted twenty times in it's first year. A bitter-sweet memoir and companion to it was The Solitary Summer, (1899) and The Benefactress (1902) was also semi-autobiographical. Other titles dealing with feminist protest and witty observations of life in provincial Germany to follow were The Princess Priscilla's Fortnight, (1905) Fraulein Schmidt and Mr Anstruther. (1907) In 1908 Arnim left Nassenheide to return to London. She was all too aware of the lack of feminine power in a male-dominated world, and did not lack for sympathy of human frailty. She would sign her next twenty or so books simply as written "By the author of Elizabeth and Her German Garden" and later simply "By Elizabeth".

JoanP, you asked about similarities between Juliet and Elizabeth. (mind you I am now seeing our Elizabeth as the true writer Elizabeth   von Arnim)  Seems they both share the talent of writing satirical, and witty observations of life in provincial Germany, both are witty, and both do not fear the power or postion, with and in, a man's company or work position.  And, both are "all too aware of the lack of feminine power in a male-dominated world, and did not lack for sympathy of human frailty."

Good night all...I am up way past my bedtime.  I think I just bumped into our friend, Gumtree, the toothfairy.   

[Gumtree]

Bellamarie - Yes, I thought that was you flitting past me - sleep tight.
I agree there is so much to conjecture about with Elizabeth the character and Elizabeth von Arnim. But I don't think we can draw any conclusion as yet.

 

[Gumtree]

There was a time when I became immersed in the whole tragic saga around the Brontes and was fascinated with the enigma of their collective talents.
  I read everything I could lay my hand upon that had any connection with them- the novels, the poetry, the juvenilia, the biographies, criticism, the lot. I acquired not only a library of their works and related matter but a collection of ephemera dealing with just about every aspect one could imagine from pamphlets about their home at the Parsonage, and the buildings used in their novels, the people who were the likely basis for some of the characters, booklets on the Haworth environs, maps, postage stamps  etc- most of it was given to me by friends who knew of my interest. However I restrained myself and did not join the Bronte Society though I have read much of the Society's transactions. At the time I could have written a book about the Brontes  though it never entered my mind to do so.

Why I'm telling you all this is that, perhaps because she is so often overlooked, it was Anne Bronte who really got to me. So you can imagine my absolute delight when I read that our Juliet had written a book about my favourite Bronte and that Isola Pribby was also a fan with decided ideas about the family. In Isola's letter to Juliet 19th Feb.
she wrote:

Their dad was a selfish thing, wasn't he? He paid the girls no attention at all - always sitting in his study, shouting for his shawl. He never got up to wait on hisself, did he?

I would have agreed with that until my reading revealed that though eccentric in behaviour he was vigorous in his parish duties. He had loved his wife and loved his daughters but didn't know how to handle them or to show them his love.
Patrick B positively doted on his son, Branwell and had high expectations of him. Too high, perhaps. Sadly, Branwell was wastrel who squandered every opportunity. He had some talent as a writer and may have been successful as portrait artist but would not (or could not) complete his training. After his dismissal  as a tutor he returned home and sank into an alcohol and opium induced decline.
Charlotte and Anne pandered to him but Emily had more sense and described him as 'a helpless person' though she did her fair share of looking after him. One feels for Patrick Bronte as time and again he put his drunken and doped son to bed and then paid his debts.

 Anne's fine novel The Tenant of Wildfell Hall is perhaps the most neglected and underrated novel of the period. In it she explores the effect a man's  dissipation can have on family members. It has a reality about it not often seen in novels of the period and of course she was using Branwell's dissipation and  decline as her model. Anne's writing is not of the calibre of Emily's Wuthering Heightsbut then what is? but it is a worthwhile read and has relevance today when drug abuse is so widespread in society.

As everyone knows,   the whole family died tragically and except for Patrick they all died young - he must have had an iron constitution as he lived in that environment until he was 84.

At the time Haworth was the unhealthiest place in all England and had the highest mortality rate. The water was often contaminated from the churchyard and refuse and excrement was piled up outside homes as a matter of course. - Anne was reputed to have had a romantic attachment to William Weightman who was her father's curate...sadly Willy died of cholera contracted while on parish duties - he was 25

This post is getting away from me....sorry. I wanted to say that as the book offers so many references to literature we could be here discussing it forever -what have we all to say about Juliet's letter to Markham Reynolds of 4th Feb. where she menaces the delivery boy with Proust's Remembrance of Things Past . A month won't be long enough but I know it will have to do.



There are about a zillion websites about the Brontes -

[Steph]

The Brontes have always interested me and when we have gone to England, I think about visiting the area where they lived. Never done it yet, but it is on my list. Two years ago, we went to Stratford and that area.. It has been totally devoted to Shakespeare now, but you can see the village underneath the tourist stuff.

[Babi]

JOANR,  despite what Seneca wrote about wealth, he himself accumulated wealth until he was one of the richest men of the times.  I got my copy of Seneca yesterday, and find that the 'Introduction' covers about a half-dozen topics and runs to, if I remember correctly, at least 27 pages.
   According to the scholarly translator, Seneca did not always practice what he preached, but his writing did, as others noted, greatly influence the subsequent development of literature.
  JUDE,  I want to see "Defiance".  I have been seeing some previews advertised, and they have really caught my interest.

[MarjV]

Ok, gals - tell me on what page is the reference to Elizabeth's Garden.  Must have missed that.   Thanks.   I have hard cover book from lib.

And I read the  Seneca  about time.   Just love this line.   : hold every hour in your grasp.    That's so true as we know!   

~Marj
  Millan.net

[bellamarie]

I have the hard cover book also, Marj, and the first mention is on pg. 29   Dawsey's letter to Juliet,  31st January 1946.  He is telling how Elizabeth stepped up to the soldier making up lies, and goes on to say she said, "How we had been attending a meeting of the Guernsey Literary Society, and the evening's discussion of Elizabeth and Her German Garden had been so delightful that we has all lost track of time."

Gumtree,

I agree there is so much to conjecture about with Elizabeth the character and Elizabeth von Arnim. But I don't think we can draw any conclusion as yet.

Yes, Gumtree,I agree, I would not allow myself to draw any conclusive thoughts at this point, considering how little we have read, and how much we have left to read, yet, in these pages we have found oh so much.
 
I feel this book is like a huge puzzle, and we are scrambling about the pages, searching the internet, recalling from the memories of our past readings etc., all in search of fitting each little piece together, to give us the complete picture of the puzzle.  I am simply in awe, of the knowledge Mary Anne Shaffer had, in order to write such a book, that includes so many authors and quotes. Ordinary readers, without the assistance of book club discussions, and very brilliant people such as the ones here in this discussion, would be passing up such wonderful pieces of past artistic works all mentioned in this book. 

You all are amazing me with your knowledge, and are inspiring me to want to read and learn so much more of these great authors.  I feel like a young chick popping from my shell, to find all you wonderfully informed, mature, experienced classical mother hens out here, sharing your knowledge, and I can only feel  excitement of acquiring even a bit of what you all already know.  I'm on my way to read some of the Bronte' sisters writing online.  Gumtree, has truly piqued my interest.

Marj, I totally love your little animated pic.   

[Gumtree]

H'm Bellamarie I'm up late now and on my way to bed....ships that pass in the night - enjoy the Brontes

Elizabeth and Her German Garden-  was republished by Virago Modern Classics in 1985. A couple of my local libraries have several of her books including 'German Garden' so I'll check them out soon...

I've read a few pages  online (Gutenberg Project) and it's delightful so far...here's the link if it works...

Elizabeth's German Garden

[pedln]

Wonderful thoughts about our Elizabeth McKenna here.  Thank you, Bellamarie, for that great summary of the other characters thoughts about her.  That really does give a good picture of her.

Who would have thought that Elizabeth and her Secret Garden was a real book by a rea author.  If we had known Elizabeth a little better we would never have doubted.  She had been well-educated, Sir Ambrose saw to that.  And she was well-acquainted with Fox’s Bookstore, so she most likely had read deeply and widely, like many of you here.

She may even had spoken German, though my guess is the the upper-lever German officers were also well-educated and probably spoke English.  (They do in Island at War.  I think I’m where you are JoanR, two more episodes to go.)

Babi, JoanR, and Gum  -- good comments about Seneca. They’ve made me want to learn more about him too.  Great pick-up on his link to Shakespeare.  It’s a good thing his letters about how to behave were to imaginary friends.  What would his true friends have thought.  And riches are for whom?  Love the ditty.

Carolyn, you’re so right.  Mrs. Maugery did not want her dear friends to be subject to ridicule.

Jude, yes, the islanders used their wits to stay alive and avoid starvtion.  (BTW, I’ve got Defiance on my Netflix queuer, thanks). In one of the letters either Dawsey or Eben says that the Germans kept careful count of pigs, etc. because they did not want local food and livestock to fall into the hands of the black market.  And according to Model Occupation, there was a thriving black market, brought about by both islanders and Germans.  This from an unpublished diary of a Guernsey schoolteacher:

3 April, 1942:  Crime is growing enormously.  Everyone pinches or does a bit of quiet balck market; no one is honest, not even the clergy, one of whom remarked ingenuously, ‘It wil be nice when the war is over, then we shall be able to lead Christian lives again.’

This, from an policeman policeman who felt his job prohibited his using the black market:

I let the children have anything extra that was going. I suffered terribly from hunger.  .  .  . I dropped from 15 stone to 10 stone.  We put boiled minced limpets on bread – the bread ws made from oatmeal and potato.  We were invited then to the house of a shopkeeper for supper; we stocked up on boiled swedes (a root vegetable) so we wouldn’t eat too much there.  But they had nearly everything you could imagine – brandy, whiskey, jelly, our stomachs just couldn’t cope

.

[pedln]

Gumtree, I just saw your link to Elizabeth and her German Garden.  It works just fine, even for old dial-up.

Boy, that Elilzabeth MeKenna was one sharp cookie!

[JudeS]

Wow! That Elizabeth Von Arnim was quite a woman.  I couldn't stop reading about her. It turns out I have seen a movie made of one of her novels-"Enchanted April"-about four British ladies who go for a vacation in Italy.
Now to the juicy parts.. After her "wrathful and penniless" German husband died Elizabeth (who had five children) had a threeyear affair with H.G.Wells.  She left him to marry Bertram Russel's older brother and so became Countess Russel.  After two years she divorced him and wrote a scathing book about him called "Vera". (Some say it's her masterpiece).  Her next three year affair was with a man called Alexander Stuart Fere. This lasted a few years and prompted three more novels.

Finally she wrote a book about the most constant of her lovers_"All the Dogs of my Life".

These fascinating asides come not from reading the book but from this great discussion to which everyone adds nuggets. By the end we will have a huge pile of these nuggets which would never have  been  if I had simply read the book on my own, without everyone's input.  I'm really glad to be part of this discussion.

Jude

[bellamarie]

JudeS, Wherever did you find this info?  I have read numerous sites on her biography and have yet to read this info.  Could you post your link please?

Gumtree,  Well, I have spent a good part of my day off, in my pjs, reading as much as possible on the Bront' sisters.  Interestingly, the father changed his name from Bronty to Bronte' because he thought it had a better sound.  I must say, I have found myself liking Anne's work, a bit more than the other two.  She does have a sweet innoncence in her poems.   

[JoanP]

"We read books, we talked books, argued over books and became dearer and dearer to one another." Amelia Maugery

I just loved this - and feel that same thing is happening to us in this discussion. It isn't at all surprising that Mrs. Maugery would not want her dear friends to be the subject of mockery in Juliet's article.

Does she understand that the story of the founding and the continuation of the literary society, would not, by itself bring mockery, at least puzzled smiles to the readers of the Times - but the name of the society itself?  How did the society get its name?  I know Will Thisbee brought his potato peel pie to the meetings, but why put it in the title?  Do you think this will be revealed in future letters?  What did you think of his recipe?  I thought it was much like the one I made a couple of weeks ago.

The focus of the article was supposed to be on books and reading and how they sustained the readers during the occupation.  Another reason I think that  Mrs. M.  decided to go ahead with the interviews - when she read the letter from the Fire Warden, Bella Taunton, condemning  Juliet for running into the burning Library to save books, she realized that Juliet was a real booklover, truly interested in the article she was writing.

Jude, yesterday you wrote of the  ways the inhabitants of Guernsey coped with the hard times during the occupation.  Mrs. Maubery writes of another way the members of the literary society coped, when she writes of  the books and reading that kept spirits up.

"Evenings  together became bright, lively times, we could almost forget, now and then, the darkness outside receded."

Isola Pribby writes to Juliet that "reading perked up spirits during  the occupation" except for the time that Elizabeth was sent to prison.

Gum, you write that a month doesn't seem to be enough time to consider the many references to other works - I was thinking we hardly have enough time to consider the contents of the letters we are focusing on this week! Let's hope that the letters will continue to shed light on these same works in the coming three weeks.  And while we ask you not go ahead into future letters, know that we can always go back and refer to whatever we want in earlier letters, okay?

Ella, thank you the message from Ann.  I know she has an interest in Anne Bronte...Steph too.  We hope you will both be with us, book in hand, on Monday.(I hope to read  The Tenant of Wildfell Hall before this discussion is over.)

It is Isola Pribby who adores the " passionate" encounters in Anne Bronte's work - "though she never had one of her own".  I'm not sure what role Isola plays in the group.  She is a dear friend and neighbor of Amelia Maugery - and as funny and lovable as can be.  She is said to be the "Sergeant-at-Arms"  in the group.  Do you think  that means she is the moderator?
Do you think Isola likes to read about passion she has never experienced herself (just as Anne Bronte wrote about passion she never knew?)

Hmmm...I'm thinking about this in connection with this question -

What do their reading choices reveal about the personalities of the members of the Society?  What do your own choices  reveal about you?

Maybe this is too personal a question?

The subject of Elizabeth and her German Garden continues to fascinate.  What is the parallel (if any) to Elizabeth McKenna.   I did read in the link to Elizabeth and her German Garden that Eliz. von Arnim wrote 27 books in which she signed as " the author of Elizabeth and her German Garden."  It is possible then that the German soldiers were familiar with this author.

Pedln - thanks for the continued input from Buntings, Model Occupation.  The occupation of Guernsey was intended to be something to emulate.  It makes sense  they placed educated soldiers -who could speak English, to mingle with the inhabitants.

[JoanR]

The Bronte children compensated with their imaginations
for what must have been pretty dreary surroundings.  They invented imaginary kingdoms:  "Angria" for Charlotte and Branwell and "Gondal" for Emily and Ann.  For these, they drew maps, wrote stories and illustrations.  There was an exhibit some years ago at the Morgan Library in NY which I was able to go to.  I just stood there, looking at the little tiny books they made and I just couldn't help but get a little teary thinking of those wonderful talented children and their hard lives.

This discussion keeps leading me off in so many directions that I do hope I won't lose sight of our Juliet!!  As it is, I've spent a few hours tracking down books by Elizabeth von Arnim whilst the debris of the house increaseth apace - and my Latin homework should be started!!  But I love what we're doing!

[pedln]

Oh for heavens sakes!  Enchanted April!  That name rings a bell, and there it is in a little paperback, sitting on the shelf – been there for years, unread.  Thank you, Jude.   Until you mentioned it I hadn’t given that book a thought, I’ve no idea how I happened to come by it.  Elizabeth von Arnim was totally unknown to me until yesterday.  And as Jude said, she’s quite a woman.  She’s certainly had an interesting life, and according to the link Joan gave us, she also moved to Canada and picked up another name.

JoanR, I don’t think you’ll lose sight of our Juliet.  Aren’t we doing just what one of our Guernsey friends (who?) said – letting one little piece of  our reading lead us into another, and another.

JoanP, I think adding Potato Peel Pie to its title makes the Guernsey Literary Society so much more their very own.  And perhaps Elizabeth, full of courage, and having gone this far, just added a touch of the absurd.

[Steph]

Aha... the book just arrived and I will diligently read away over the weekend..

[mabel1015j]

Loving all your comments and links .............

Someone commented about how the Germans and the Islanders could have communicated and a follow-up comment was that the German officers probably knew English..................that it was true in the movie that you are watching..............that may be true, but it is more likely that they spoke French - the country next-door, but also French was the language of diplomacy at the time and considered the "international" language, at least that is my understanding. All of the European countries had come out of the nineteenth century as unified countries w/ boundaries as we more less know them today - excluding the changes after WWI and WWII. But they also had developed during the late 19th century very strong nationalism in each country - each of the major countries felt, and taught, that they had the most  important culture - literature, music, art, etc. - and the best history, politics and military and therefore should be the most important country in Europe - a most important element in the lead-up to WWI, which lead to WWII. Even so, France had a lingering sophisticated reputation from previous centuries when it really was THE place to go for education and culture, and as i said French was the language that carried people's communication when there were diverse languages in a room..........................jean

[JudeS]

Bellamarie,

You asked where I found the info on Elizabeth Von Arnim.  I put the name into Google  which came up with a long list of articles.  I chose #2 which led me to a site called  The Literature Network. This site gave a long , full biography of all the events I mentioned plus many more I didn't.
This site also allows you to search for any details  on the author that are not mentioned.  They also requested readers to compose a quiz on Elizabeth which they would attach to their site of Literary quizzes.
At the bottom of the article is a link to Amazon with six of her books listed with the prices.
Happy hunting!

Jude

[bellamarie]

JudeS,  Thank you so much. 

[MarjV]

Bella Marie - like how you say this:   . I feel like a young chick popping from my shell, to find all you wonderfully informed, mature, experienced classical mother hens out here, sharing your knowledge, and I can only feel  excitement of acquiring even a bit of what you all already know.   
Happens to me always when I follow book discussions.

Thanks about the German Garden page and the link from Gumtree.

I've seen the "Enchanted April" film