Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society - by Shaffer & Barrows

[JoanP]

The Book Club Online is  the oldest  book club on the Internet, begun in 1996, open to everyone.  We offer cordial discussions of one book a month,  24/7 and  enjoy the company of readers from all over the world.  Everyone is welcome to join in.

The year is 1946.  Juliet Aston, a writer looking for her next book subject, finds herself "gloomier than she ever was during the war."  Quite out of the blue she finds her subject, one  that will change her life, with the arrival of a letter from a member of a book club in Guernsey, a British Channel island occupied by the Nazis during the war.

Discussion Schedule: Feb. 1-7   *Letters -- January 8, 1946 - March 1, 1946 Feb. 8-14    *Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946 Feb. 15-21   *Letters -- May 14, 1946 - July 15, 1946 Feb. 22-28     *Letters -- July 17, 1946 - Sept. 17, 1946

Feb. 8-14    Letters -- March 2, 1946 - May 13, 1946

 1.  How do you envision the  Literary Society meetings now that we are hearing from more members?  How has the Literary Society grown from the original six?   Which members do you find interesting?
2. Is there a   deeper meaning to the various characters' choices or did the Shaffer randomly choose the authors referred to in the book? (Jude)
3.  "I did not want to spend my time reading about  people who never was, doing things they never did." (Clovis Fossey) Do you know people who feel this way about fiction?  How did the busy farmer  become interested in poetry?   When was the last time you  memorized a poem?
4.  Why is Adelaide Addison so intent on putting an end to Juliet's correspondance with the literary society especially now that Elizabeth McKenna is no longer on the island?
5.  How is Juliet's correspondance with the Guernsey Literary Society affecting her relationship with Mark?    Do you sense that Sidney is more than just a big brother friend?  (Who is Piers?)
6.  Why would the Islander girls and Dawsey Adams fraternize with German soldiers?  How do they communicate?  What did they have in common?
7. To whom does the Jewish John Booker owe his survival during the occupation?   What drew him to the  the letters of Seneca?
8.  What gruesome information does Juliet's research reveal about events and conditions on the islands during the occupation?  Why does she decide she must go to Guernsey? 
9. Will you share your underlining, your notes on this week's letters; what surprised you, riled you, or tickled your fancy?

Related Links: Author's Biography; Visit Guernsey ;   A history of Guernsey during the German Occupation 1940 - 1941 ; Charles Lamb - Selected Essays ; the letters of Seneca

Discussion Leaders:  JoanP and Pedln

[JoanP]

I love the way you find out a little bit of something and only later find out what it's all about.(JoanK)

I've been thinking about this very thing - isn't it so true with  everything we learn - the way we acquire  knowledge,  get to know people, discover authors?  it takes time to assemble all the bits and pieces.
I'm thinking of first impressions - don't you sometimes misread a person on first meeting?

Pedln comments  on how deftly the authors have portrayed the characters - "we get to know them  in such a short time."  Do you think it is the letter form, the epistolary writing that makes this possible? We all love Isola - but I'm not so sure she would make such a positive first impression.  We met her through her letter to Juliet, in which she told us about herself in a way we couldn't help but love her.

It is fascinating watching Juliet come to life through her letters - day by day, little by little.  Of course she is flattered by Mark's attention - this is romance, rumba and roses, French restaurants - as Bellamarie writes, she's loving every minute of it.    On this level, Mark has made a strong first impression.  And yet, she isn't ready to accept his proposal.  I'm not so sure this means that she is unable to commit or that Mary Ann  Shaffer has written a story of unattainable love.  We will have to see.  It might just mean that Juliet is getting to know herself more - getting to know what is really important to her.  Already she says she "loves Dawsey Adams and Eben Ramsey."

Joank, you may be too tough on Mark.  He wants to marry her, take her back to New York. His intentions seem honorable enough.  But what does he see in Juliet?     He wants her to forget about Guernsey once the article is written. Does he really know her?  Does he know what she likes to read?  Does he know what is important to her?  Does he care?
Juliet responds in a letter to Isola's question about having a beau - about the things she does not know about Mark - she hopes he doesn't arrange his books alphabetically.    That gave me pause.  How do you arrange your books?

It's been quite interesting reading about your interests in reading - such range.  After listing the different "genres" - fiction and non-fiction, you seem to find a common denominator when describing your preferences.  I love that - I can't really figure out who you are from the wide range you describe, but when you distill down to what you like about your choices, now I feel I know you better!

Have you noticed a major difference between the interests expressed by our SeniorLearn Literary  and those in  Guernsey?  They each seem to profess a loyalty of sorts to one field of interest - one author.   How can this be explained?  Did the authors have a reason for creating these "representatives"  for each of the literary genres?


Everything about the existence  and the success of this society points to Elizabeth  - and yet nothing is said about what she shared at  these literary meetings.  Don't you find that fascinating?

Have a fine day.  I can't wait to get back to our "meeting"!

[JoanP]

Good morning, Steph -

Almost missed you - yes, I worry about what Adelaide Addison will do -  or has done to interfere with the happy little literary society.  Maybe she didn't know that John Booker was Jewish...but she did know that the father of Elizabeth's baby was the German officer - she wrote to Juliet about that.  She really has it in for Elizabeth.  At first I thought that she might have reported Elizabeth to get her off the island.  What is behind her wrath?  (I'm beginning to feel sorry for her, I don't know why.)

[Babi]

Comments on Mark and Juliet:  From Bellamarie - "he began shouting about Sidney and godforsaken islands and women who care more about a
 passel of strangers than men who are right in front of them
 (that's Guernsey and my new friends there.)"

JOANP: 

He wants her to forget about Guernsey once the article is written. Does he really know her?  Does he know what she likes to read?  Does he know what is important to her?  Does he care

?
  Joan's imression is what I'm seeing in Mark.  While I can understand Bellamarie's observations about Mark being 'hurt', his hurt seems to me to be more anger.  His ego is hurt; he is not accustomed to women who don't make him the center of attraction.
  Mark takes no interest whatever in the things that mean the most to Juliet. He wants her to marry him and give up her writing.  While the other people around Juliet are delighted with the people of Guernsey, especially little Kit, Mark is apparently interested only in himself and what he wants.


   

[bellamarie]

JoanP, How do you arrange your books?

This made me giggle.  lolol  I looked at my book shelves and realized, I first try to arrange my books so they line up tallest to shortest, the tallest touching the side of the book shelf.  It is important to me to try to keep the same authors close together.  I am even willing to turn a book on its side to fit in height, rather than have it short and sticking out from all the others.

So, what would Freud say about me? 

JoanP,

I'm not so sure this means that she is unable to commit or that Mary Ann  Shaffer has written a story of unattainable love.  We will have to see.

Yes, I am anxious to see if Juliet is able to find a man she is ready and willing to love and committ to.  So far her responses to the break ups, have been her questioning herself and complimenting the man.  Pg. 134 "I used to get shivers about Ransom.  Sometimes I do about Mark, too_when I look at him_but I can't get over the nagging feeling that I am no Eulalie.  If I were ever to fall off a horse, it would be lovely to be picked up by Mark, but I don't think I am likely to fall off a horse any time soon."

One thing that I question is the age of Juliet, and how she has not matured into knowing herself and being able to committ.  Back in those times, you would be considered an old spinster not being married, at the age of 32.  In my opinion, I feel Mary Ann has written parts of this book and the actions of some characters in the premise of today's generation.  It's like the past and the present colliding. 

[bellamarie]

Babi,

While I can understand Bellamarie's observations about Mark being 'hurt', his hurt seems to me to be more anger.  His ego is hurt; he is not accustomed to women who don't make him the center of attraction.
  Mark takes no interest whatever in the things that mean the most to Juliet. He wants her to marry him and give up her writing.  While the other people around Juliet are delighted with the people of Guernsey, especially little Kit, Mark is apparently interested only in himself and what he wants.

Thank you Babi, for understanding my observation of Mark being hurt.  I agree Mark is expressing his hurt with anger, which many people do, including Juliet when she yelled at Rob.  It in no way nullifies the fact Mark is hurt.  I don't see it as his ego alone.  Everyone's ego takes a blow when rejected, but I think he is genuinely in love with Juliet and is hurt by her rejection.  Is he in love with the woman he sees her to be and wants her to be?  Possibly, but then again in the beginning of each romance and relationship and early years of marriage don't we all have this idea of the person we love?  Is it always in line with who they actually are, or end up to be?  We get ideas of who we want them to be, and how they will fulfill the part in our life.  I think Mark has respect for Juliet and her writing, I just think he sees her caring more for her writing and Gurensey friends, then she cares for him.  At this point he is correct.

I am only conjecturing my opinions on Juliet's words.  In argument of you saying Mark in only interested in  himself and being center of attention, and only his ego is hurt, on pg. 133 Juliet writes to Sophie and says, "Here's the thing, Sophie_Mark Reynolds is exactly like Ransom.  He's tall and handsome, with a crooked smile and chiseled jaw.  He shoulders his way through the crowd, careless of the glances that follow him.  He's impatient and magnetic, and when I go to powder my nose, I overhear other women talking about him, just like Eulalie did in the museum.  People notice him.  He doesn't try to make them_they can't help it."

On pg. 134 "He wants me to stay in London and go to restaurants and theaters and marry him like a reasonable person."

No where does Juliet say he does not want her to continue writing.  She sees his expectations reasonable.  They are just not what she wants.  I guess my only reason for defense of the two men she has broken up with, is that some make them out to be uncaring, selfish, abusive, egotistical, and a bit of a cad, when Juliet has not given us that impression what so ever.  She questions herself each time.  Which in my opinion, the author wants the reader to question where Juliet is at in her life, where she sees herself, and where she is headed?  At this point, she is headed to Guernsey Island.  Let's see if she breaks any hearts there, or if her heart may be broken.

[pedln]

One thing that I question is the age of Juliet, and how she has not matured into knowing herself and being able to committ.  Back in those times, you would be considered an old spinster not being married with children, at the age of 32.  In my opinion, I feel Mary Ann has written parts of this book and the actions of some characters in the premise of today's generation.  It's like the past and the present colliding. 

  from Bellamarie

Well,  there's been a war on.  Most young men have not been around. 

We know Juliet is 33 because that's what she told Isola.  What about some of the others -- Amelia we know is probably older than the others, excluding Eben who's a grandfather. She's known Dawsey for 30 years, but adult years or has she watched him grow up. I picture Isola as one of those women of indeterminent age -- she'll always appear the same.  As for Dawsey, is he older than draft age or did he stay on Guernsey because of his farm?  Bunting tells us that young men of fighting age were the first to be evacuated from the Channel Islands.

Have you noticed that Juliet, Isola, Dawsey and Amelia are now on a first name basis in their letters?

JoanP, my bookshelves are stuffed -- and the books put in every which way.

[bellamarie]

Pedln,

Well,  there's been a war on.  Most young men have not been around.

For some reason I have not gotten the impression the war effected Juliet and her society of people, as it did the people on Guernsey. For her age, and the people she came in contact with at the Spectator, and Sidney's family, I think there would have been plenty suitors for her.   

[ANNIE]

Just getting back into the book.  Had computer problems last week but it seems to be up for now.  Had to erase my external hard drive after transferring all that info to another HD.
I have been trying to read all the comments here but finally gave up and came into the last one this morning.
About Dawsy, I believe he explained to Juliet that he wasn't fighting in the war due to a leg injury that didn't bother him much but kept him from joining up.
Earlier, JoanP mentioned Clovis and his wanting not to read fiction.  I find Clovis to be a very humble man.
In fact, most of the people in the society seem to be humble and defer to each other so gently. Ages??? I think mostly 30's to 50's. 
About the way the society meetings go---it seems to be that one person plans to talk about his/her book at each meeting but if I remember, some of them are trying to write also and want to be heard on their titles.  And, always they are bios.  And although some  are considered boring, the group accepts their talking about their writings since they like the writer or writers.

I loved John Booker's attachment to his one author.

I had to return my book yesterday but have another on the way.  I am also listening to the audio book which is really done well, with five actors taking the different characters.  Most interesting that they give voice to people that we now know didn't speak English but a form of French. 

Earlier, I found this link about Guernsey during the occupation and there were some pictures of the bunkers that the Germans built.   Here 'tis:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_the_Channel_Islands

[ANNIE]

Forgot to mention that the picure under my name is latest great grandson, Liam Garret Alden Fowler, age 3 months now.

[bellamarie]

Clovis Fossey) How did the busy farmer  become interested in poetry?

Dear sweet, sly old Clovis.  You just gotta love him.  Bless his heart that he would take the advice on how to pursue the Widow Hubert, from Ralph, who got to hold her arm. Would that be considered 1st base in this time period.? (Just kidding)  Ralph says, "Women like poetry." Clovis_"So  I thought_If it's rhymes the Widow Hubert wants, I will find me some." 

This is how he began attending the meetings, won his Nancy's hand in marriage, and found a love for poetry himself.

I loved the story Eben told about hiding the pig and passing the dead pig along.  That Amelia was a real brainstormer.   Eben's letter about his grandson Eli, Jane and her baby dying was so sad.  Elizabeth sure is proving to be one very caring, loyal, strong friend.  I am hoping she returns. 

Now we know why Amelia invited Dawsey to the pig roast... She needed Dawsey to come kill her pig quietly, "because there was a German battery by her farm, and it would not do for the soldiers to hear the pig's death squeal and come running.  Pigs have always been drawn to Dawsey_he could come in a barnyard, and they would rush up to him and have their backs scratched.  They set up a shindy for anyone else_squealing, snuffling, and plunging about.  But Dawsey, he could soothe them down and he knew just the right spot under the chin to slip his knife in quick.  There wasn't the time for the pigs to squeal; they'd just slide quietly onto the ground sheet."

I like how Dawsey did not want to sugar coat his betrayal to the pigs when Eben said, "I  told Dawsey they only looked up once in surprise, but he said no, pigs were bright enough to know betrayal when they met it, and I wasn't to try to pretty matters up."

Dawsey seems a kind and gentle man from his letters to Juliet, but for some reason, I can't quite explain, this upset me.  I know desperate times, call for desperate measures, and killing animals is something that must be done.  I think the fact that the animal trusted Dawsey, and he knew it, and he then slaughtered it, is what bothered me. 

[CallieOK]

TCM network is airing the movie "Enchanted April" tonight (Tuesday) at 9:00 p.m CST. The blurb says it is about four Englishwomen who rent a villa in Italy - made in 1991.  Is this the story written by the author of "Elizabeth's German Garden"?

I'm enjoying reading all the observations and comments.  By the time I come in to make mine - someone else has all ready said it!  

[ANNIE]

Oh, don't miss that movie!  Its delightful and I think we have seen it about 4 times.  I have always loved Joan Plowright.  She chooses such good play and movies to be part of.  Have you seen "Tea With Mussolini"?  Another super movie!

[JudeS]

Calliein-
Yes , that movie "Enchanted April" is based on the novel of the same name by Elizabeth Von Arnim.

I wondered about the symbolism of the authors chosen by the various characters.  Is there a deeper meaning to their choices or did the Shaffer randomly choose the authors referred to in the book?

First and foremost-Charles Lamb.  He had immense difficulties to overcome in his life. From the time he was born, when his older sister Mary was ten, she did most of the caretaking of the boy.  Her greatest accomplishment , she felt, was teaching him to read at the age of three.  
Their Mother was bedridden most of the time and their father was very prone to drink heavily.  
Although Charles got a scholarship to a boys school at age seven he suffered from a stutter and could not take top honors .
Therefore at age 14 he went to work and quickly became the families only breadwinner.
Both Charles and Mary were prone to Depression and Charles spent six weeks in a Mental Hospital when he was 20. The next year Mary took a knife and stabbed their Mother to death. During the trial in which she was acclaimed to be insane ,Charles persuaded the Judges that he would keep her safe and out of the publics way if he was declared her guardian.
So at age 21 (Mary was 31) Charles became her guardian and she lived with him for the rest of her life.  She outlived him by 13 years. Neither of them married.
Through all this Charles kept up his employment with the British East India Company and wrote in his spare time.  When the idea of writing a children's version of Shakespeares tales came up,they decided that Charles would deal with the tragedies and Mary , the comedies.
So success under pressure  and tragedy.  Can this be the lesson we are to learn for the choice of Charles Lamb or was the author chosen on a whim by Shaffer?

Jude

[MarjV]

Love reading all your comments.   My book had to be returned.   I too got the Gurensey characters mixed up except for Dawsey - I guess his calm & meditative self appealed to me.   glimpses of their meetings were neat!

Saw this article on the Todt in wikipedia.   Interested me that the Germans treated those men as slaves aka "forced labor".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organisation_Todt

~Marj

ps - and I thought Mark superficial right from the get go.

[JoanP]

Ann is here - with little Liam in tow!  At last!  I would love to hear this book on tape - different voices for each letter writer.  The book should lend itself to audio very well.  Right now though, I'll stick with the book.  It is very difficult keeping up with this crowd.

Evelyn, and Callie, please don't get discouraged - there is plenty of space for you to speak your mind.  Like, how are your books arranged on your shelves, for example?Juliet hopes that Mark doesn't arrange his alphabetically.  It seems that would disturb her - (not quite as much as the fiancé who replaced her books with his athletic trophies however.)
My husband put himself in charge of "our" books very early in our marriage.  One side of the room is all hardcover, according to genre.  Within this genre, everything is alphabetized.  Another large book case, floor to ceiling is paperback...organized the same way.  If I happen vary from this - put a paperback over with the hardcover by the same author, he quietly puts the book in the "right" spot.
I don't think Juliet would have been too happy with this arrangement.
When Bruce retired, he spent a morning while I was out - alphabetizing my spice jars!  Let me tell you, they were immediately returned to my system!

Annie, the Wikipedia site is great!  One could get lost in it.  I love those photos of Guernsey. 


And MarjV, thank You for the Wiki site on the Todt.  If I remember correctly, there were something like 16,000 men brought in as slave labor to defend Guernsey, build the wall.

Callie, thank you so much for letting us know about Enchanted April.  I checked and it is playing tonight in the EAST at 10 pm!  How on earth am I going to stay awake?  Maybe a little nap this evening. 
Here's a trailer for the movie - I hope you can see it.  It looks delicious! Just from the trailer, I feel I know Elizabeth von Amin!

Trailer for Enchanted April

Do you suppose that Elizabeth was reading Elizabeth von Amin's Elizabeth's German Garden for the meetings...to keep up the charade when the German officers came to the society's meetings?  Remember there were 27 novels by "the author of Elizabeth's German Garden."
Do you remember how long the meetings went on with the original 6 before others began to show up?  I'd think they would have been intimidated by the presence of the Germans at the meetings.

I'm going to spend some time considering Jude's question  about the symbolism of the authors chosen by the various characters. 

Is there a deeper meaning to their choices or did the Shaffer randomly choose the authors referred to in the book?

You make a good case for Dawsey Adams choice of Charles Lamb, Jude. -  success under pressure  and tragedy.

But what of Clovis Fossey  and poetry,  Bellamarie?   He memorized rhymes to please the widow Hubert. He later came to love poetry.  What did he love about Wordsworth? Do you see a reason why Shaffer would match Clovis with poetry?

OK, I need a nap if I'm to stay awake for Enchanted April.  It does look wonderful.

[CallieOK]

AdoAnnie, yes, I have seen "Tea With Mussolini" and absolutely loved it!

Thank you, Joan.  I finished the book (and also had to return it because "others were waiting" and I was not allowed to re-check it) and am impatiently waiting for the rest of you to discover some things you've been speculating about - at which time, I will say,  "AHA"! 

Books arranged?  What a concept!     I attempt to have them divided into areas for fiction, non-fiction, genealogy and Oklahoma History - but I keep "needing" to consult one or another and those end up wherever I put them down. Good thing I live in a duplex and don't have that many places to search.

I'm thankful that "Enchanted April" is on a cable channel instead of a local network.  The OKC metro area (and my town in particular) was hit with a major tornado this afternoon and that's all the local stations can talk about.  They're beginning to repeat themselves and I will welcome having something else to watch.

[JoanK]

CALLIE: we've been seeing pictures here too. I'm so glad you're ok. How far from you was it.

[bellamarie]

JoanP,

"I checked and it is playing tonight in the EAST at 10 pm! "

OH DRAT!!!!!.....I skimmed my channel list for 9:00 and did not see it, so I looked no further.  Guess I will have to be happy with the trailer.

But what of Clovis Fossey  and poetry,  Bellamarie?   He memorized rhymes to please the widow Hubert. He later came to love poetry.  What did he love about Wordsworth? Do you see a reason why Shaffer would match Clovis with poetry?

Clovis connected with poets who were "war poets."  As he states, "It was the poetry of Wilfred Owen.  He was an officer in the First World War, and he knew what was what and called it by its right name.  I was there, too, at Passchendaele, and I knew what he knew, but I could never put it into words for myself."

I loved how Clovis voiced his disdain for Yeats for not putting any WW1 poems in his Anthology, "The Oxford Book of Modern Verse, 1892-1935.  He says, "They let a man named Yeats make the choosings.  They shouldn't have.  Who is he_and what does he know about verse?"

I had to giggle at the thought of Clovis, deciding Yeats had no business choosing the poems for his book.  lol  Clovis was really ticked to find Mr. Yeats said, "I deliberately chose NOT to include any poems from World War 1.  I have a distaste for them.  Passive suffering is not a theme for poetry."

Clovis, I believe was looking not only for a way of dealing with what he had lived and seen in the war, but he also was looking for these poets to give honor and validity to the men who fought and died.  He says, "Passive Suffering? Passive Suffering!  I nearly seized up.  What ailed the man?  Lieutenant Owen, he wrote a line, "What passing bells for these who die as cattle?  Only the monstrous anger of the guns."  What's passive about that, I'd like to know?  That's exactly how they do die.  I saw it with my own eyes, and I say to hell with Mr. Yeats."

I daresay, I agree with you Clovis. Shame on Mr. Yeats.  Shaffer chose to put Clovis with the war poets, because he would appreciate and connect with these works, since he had been a soldier in the war.

JoanP,

My husband put himself in charge of "our" books very early in our marriage.
When Bruce retired, he spent a morning while I was out - alphabetizing my spice jars!

Rolling on the floor laughing my head off.......taking charge of the books on the shelves would have been a deal breaker for Juliet.  Alphabetizing spice jars...hmmm time to get a part time job, or take up golfing.  Now I am concerned for when my husband retires in the next year or so.  lololol   

CallieinOK, 

Thank you, Joan.  I finished the book (and also had to return it because "others were waiting" and I was not allowed to re-check it) and am impatiently waiting for the rest of you to discover some things you've been speculating about - at which time, I will say,  "AHA"! 

How dare you tease us!

[CallieOK]

Bellamarie - 

JoanK - touch down was 3 miles north/1 mile east of me.  That's a long way for tornadoes.

I didn't get to watch "Enchanted April" because an out-of-state friend called to see if I was o.k. - and we talked for over an hour.
Fortunately, I could reach the t v remote and was able to set things up to record it.  So - I shall look forward to seeing it tomorrow.

"All Quiet On (this part of) The Western Front" and I'm off to bed.

Sleep well, everyone, and have pleasant dreams.

[Steph]

Whew.. Having problems getting through today on Senior Learn. I did laugh about the books.. I keep aut hors together and genres together, but that is it .. And my to read basket is simply stacks in no order at all. That way about once a month, I go through and move things around as to how I am feeling about reading for a bit.
I was struck by Dawseys description of Christian, Elizabeths friend. He makes him human.. Although in that letter, I was more struck by Dawsey's great need to help others. A kind and caring man.

[nlhome]

Time is limited today...

How do I arrange my books? Mostly by whether they are read, to be read or in the process of reading....some of the "keepers" are arranged neatly on shelves to fit with other items. But both my husband and I had stacks in places where we can find them and grab them - a living room book, a bedroom book, even a car book.

I found this article when reading on line this morning:  
http://www.jsonline.com/features/food/39375492.html

It goes back to earlier discussions, but I thought it was interesting how the book discussion moved into another direction as well.

The broad selection of books and authors in this book AND in this discussion could keep me reading and exploring for a long time. I'm looking for a copy of one of Elizabeth Von Arnim's books through my library system right now.

[ANNIE]

OH, I am caught!!  I'm with Bruce on the books and on the spices!!
Way back in the olden days of TV, I saw a man explain how he organized his kitchen food stuffs on the old Phil Donahue show.  One thing he suggested was alphabatizing the spices.  I was so sick of doing the big search when I wanted a particular spice from the jumbled mess in the the cupboard, that I decided to try his method.  And I love it.  Can't stand it if anyone gets anything out of place.  Even bought some special telescoping shelves when we moved here.  It works so well and saves my temper for another day.

Having worked in a bookstore for a few years, I also have a large amount of my books arranged in HB, author names and sometimes genre plus PBs are across the room in another set of bookshelves and they are arranged the same way.  Well, you've seen all this, JoanP, when you were  perusing Ralph's workshop last year.   Sounds like Bruce would have approved of the workshop also.  Its so well done. 

Another of my days of working in a bookshop, is if I am in the grocery store, I tend to return things to their proper order.  Even things that are out of place.  I have been known to redo the card section, the pickles, the books and the magazines that are staring at me while I await my turn at the cash register.
 I did notice the other day that I seem to have broken this habit since I ,shall we say,  matured! Hahaha! 

This author has really given us a fabulous amount of reading material and has gone to the trouble to give a reason for each member's choice of books along with their personalities seeming to fit those choices.  I was ROFLOL when I read about Clovis and his trouble with Yeats and his mention of "passive suffering". 

I finished the audio book last night plus had to return the book two days ago.  But, I was able to get on the list for another copy, and as of yesterday, voila!  its here, right beside me.  So, I will peruse it again for more ideas.

nlhome,  I did enjoy the article on this book and the book club telling how they save money and a recipe for the potato peel pie.  It reads more like a "skins" recipe which is offered in one of our restaurants. But it does sound good.

[Babi]

Bellamarie, I think your quote picks up a key point, when Juliet says: "but I don't think I'm likely to fall of a horse any time soon."  To me, that is saying that she is not some helpless female who would be happy to let a husband run her life.  And Mark does show signs of intending to run her life.
  You are right, and the expected age for marriage in those days. Thinking about wartime Britain, tho', I can see how the old norms and expectations would be pretty well shattered.

Good for you, JOANP. Husbands should understand that unless they are doing the cooking, they should not meddle with the cook's arrangements.

What a sad story about Charles Lamb and his sister Mary.  Virtually all I knew about Lamb is that he wrote essays under the name of Elias.   I wonder what kind of ‘madness’ afflicted Mary, that could keep recurring, but leave her sane and normal in-between episodes?  “….she herself could tell when the madness was coming on, and could do nothing to stop its coming.”   What a terrible thing to live with, whether it’s happening to oneself, or you are seeing it in a loved one.

[bellamarie]

Babi,

What a sad story about Charles Lamb and his sister Mary.  Virtually all I knew about Lamb is that he wrote essays under the name of Elias.   I wonder what kind of madness afflicted Mary, that could keep recurring, but leave her sane and normal in-between episodes?  “….she herself could tell when the madness was coming on, and could do nothing to stop its coming.”   What a terrible thing to live with, whether it’s happening to oneself, or you are seeing it in a loved one.

Yes, indeed it is sad.  My daughter suffers from Bi Polar/Manic Depression.  It did not manifest until she was in her early 20's.  For years the doctors could not find the right meds to help her be able to live comfortably in mainstream life.  Now, thank God, she is able to drive again and manage to do her every day chores etc.  I fear she may never be able to hold down a job due to this illness.  It sounds so much like Charles Lamb's description of his sister/mother and himself.  Back then there were no diagnosis or names, and lack of knowledge in how to treat mental illnesses.  They generally suffered in the privacy of their own home, and kept from others so they would not harm anyone, or they were locked up in a state hospital sedated, so they would not do harm to themself or others.  If my daughter misses any dose of her medication, we are able to notice and get her back on track.  I did extensive research once her psychiatrist met with me, and I learned that there were many well known artists, authors, poets, singers, actors, etc. that suffered with this disease.  Today, I am thankful for the medications and knowledge, that allows these people to live as normal a life as possible.  Some more than others.  She lives in Florida and is married and their marriage suffered for a few years due to this illness, and so she had to come to live with us.  It is a huge responsibility to care for someone with this illness, because they tend to feel better and decide they no longer need their medication.  Combative, impulsiveness and paranoia seem to be symptomatic.  Violence has been known to also be present in some going through an episode.  This is a genetic disease that a person is born with and it may never manifest in their lifetime.  The average age it does manifest is the early 20's, but people can be symptomatic at a very early age and it go unnoticed, especially in the teen years when one may show signs of rebellion, disruptive behavior, lack of responsibleness, etc. I personally have not had any symptoms, but can surely trace it back in my family through generations.

I did notice in Charles Lamb's essay that he did have his sister admitted for a time and he wrote to her and visited her and then she was able to come live with him.  My daughter had to be hospitalized for a few months when this manifested due to the violent tendency and confusion.  She too, could tell when an episode was coming on.  It was apparent to me after spending close time with her, when she was about to experience an episode.  I truly thought I would have a nervous break down the short time she lived in my home, while we were trying to get her the right medications and help to assist her to have an apartment near us, after she got out of the hospital.  I thank God she is doing well now.  We speak every day on the phone.  The most endearing thing I can share through her worst times, was she was able to stay mentally connected to me.  When no one else could reach her physic, she was able to communicate to me.  What a miracle that was for me and her.    Sorry to ramble on.

[ANNIE]

Babi,
I only know about Charles Lamb and his psuedo-name, Elias, because for a long time, it was always in crossword puzzles when I was younger.
While we are still speaking of Adelaide, don't you love her signature in her letter to Juliet??? "Yours in In Christian Consternation and Concern"?  Hard to believe she thought she was being kind and concerned.

[pedln]

Thunderstorms here.  Callie, I’ll believe you when you say 3 miles is a long way off, but it sounds close to me.  Glad you are okay.  And thank you for the up-tick on Enchanted April.  I got it taped, and am glad to see it has captions.  And if you missed it, it apparently is not out on DVD yet, but Netflix has it in it’s “Save” list.

ps - and I thought Mark superficial right from the get go.

  from MarjV

And I’ll be he never eats hot dogs, either

A sausage—how appetizing
Suzette, at 8:00?
        love, M.

So success under pressure  and tragedy.  Can this be the lesson we are to learn for the choice of Charles Lamb or was the author chosen on a whim by Shaffer?

from Jude

Jude, I don’t know much about Charles Lamb, but I don’t thingk Mary Ann Shaffer did anything on a whim.  Have we said this before – Charles Lamb is the lure, the connector, the catalyst that started alll this.  We know Dawsey liked the roast pig, and Juliet’s favorite line was buzz buzz buzz, bum, bum, bum.   .   ..    .  And now here’s Christian saying about Lamb, “He was not a man to mind a little damp,”  and laughing at the time because both he and Dawsey were soaking wet.  So where it that line from?

Annie, glad to see you here, but some of you are giving me a complex about my shelves throughout the house. 

N,  I do love your method of shelving (and stacking) books.  Much like mine, but probably a little neater, although I do have one (narrow) shelf of unread books, and one shelf devoted to cookbooks.  And two car books.  The link was delightful as well as helpful, and certainly is indicative of how our reading expands our horizons.

JoanP – spices in alphabetical order!!  ‘Fraid not here.  Do you date them?  I do try to do that, and cans also.

Bellamarie, thank you for sharing your concerns about your daughter (and the parallels with Mary Lamb)  I’m glad you were able to get help for her, and hope that she will continue to do well.

[mabel1015j]

Is Mary Ann making us consider the complications in male/female relationships?

She's making me furious at Juliet - altho maybe because i can see in her the mistakes i have made at various times in relationships.

In her 20th April letter to Isola Juliet writes that "I'm far more afraid of chickens than i am of men, so i wrote about that..........................." Is she? Because at the end of the letter she writes "I suppose i do have a suitor, but i'm not really used to him yet. He's terribly charming and he plies me w/ delicious meals, but i sometimes think i prefer suitors in books rather than right in front of me" (similar to what Isola said in her 19th Feb letter "men are more interesting in books than they are in real life.")  J continues, "How awful, backward, cowardly and mentally warped that will be if it turns out to be true." I wanted to smack her right there................charm and dinners does not a husband make!

But THEN i got to her letter to Sophie of 1st May! AARRGGGHHH! In a couple hours, Mark gives her a dozen clues as to why she should run as fast as she can from his proposal - not necessarily from him - YET - but maybe after another dinner or two! .........How often when in lust we dismiss the clues that tell us who a person really is.............we love to dream of how we can explain to him how we feel and our relationship will change to the ideal picture that we have because of the explanation and his "understanding" our explanation. 

J says "he's absolutely FURIOUS because i didn't give him an unequivocal yes. (clue #1) I tried to explain that i hadn't known h im long enough and i needed time to think, but he WOULDN'T LISTEN to me (BIG clue # 2). He was CERTAIN that i was rejecting him because of a SECRET PASSION (#3) -for Sidney! They really are OBSESSED(#4) w/ one another, those two."
J continuing  - ....he began SHOUTING (etc.) about S and godforsaken islands and WOMEN (etc. - you get the point) who care more about a PASSEL of strangers than men who are right in front of them. .............i KEPT trying to explain and he KEPT shouting until i began to CRY FROM FRUSTRATION. Then he felt remoreseful, .........which was so unlike him ( how does she know that's unlike him?) and endearing (?) that i almost changed my mind and said yes!  ........We argued and he LECTURED and i WEPT ........he leaned in to kiss me and siad, 'You're an IDIOT, Juliet.'".....................AND THEN SHE REALLY MAKES ME POUND THE TABLE........."And maybe he's right!?!?!" NO! NO! NO! ................................how can we so often negate what is right in front of us and cloud it over w/ self-denigration and romaniticsm of "it will be o.k.?" She's missed all the clues of who Mark really is and is not likely to change.........................

o.k., my rant is over, but if J continues along this line, i may have to throw the book across the room.................... ..........................jean

[JoanK]

Bellamarie: thank you for sharing. We all feel with you. Most of us have known the pain of watching a child suffer and being unable to "make it go away".

JEAN: you hit the nail on the head! And (I can't find who said it, sorry) that it would be lovely to be picked up by him if you fell off a horse, but she doesn't intend to fall off a horse. Exactly!

Getting angry when she asks to think about his proposal is different from the other man getting angry when she dumps him the day before their wedding. In the "dumping" case, she is going back on a commitment. But Mark is assuming that because he wants her to commit, she must do it. He probably thinks he has "bought" her with all those expensive dinners. He is not really treating her as a human being with ideas, interests emotions of her own, but as an expensive doll that he will buy to satisfy his own needs. If she marries him, he will continue to treat her this way.

Also, this kind of possessiveness and jealousy of any outside relationships she has is typical of wife abusers. After marriage, they manage to isolate their wives from any outside relationships with their jealousy, and make them completely dependent on their husband. Then they tear down the wife' self esteem, until she believes that she can't survive without him. This is part of why it is so difficult for women to leave abusive relationships.

[bellamarie]

Babi,

I think your quote picks up a key point, when Juliet says: "but I don't think I'm likely to fall of a horse any time soon."  To me, that is saying that she is not some helpless female who would be happy to let a husband run her life.  And Mark does show signs of intending to run her life.

Interesting thought Babi.  I saw, falling off a horse as, falling hopelessly in love, in which she was admitting she is not about to do anytime soon, but if she would, Mark would be the one she would like to pick her up, (sweep her off her feet/ fall in love with.)

Jude, .........

I don't think Mary Ann Shaffer did anything on a whim.

I am certain, Mary Ann Shaffer did not do anything on a whim, when writing this book.  Everything means something, and every person has a purpose for why she connected and mentioned the books and authors to them.  Imagine just an ordinary person with little to no background in classic works, (like me) reading this book alone.  I can't believe all that they/me,  would be missing out on. 

JoanK and Pedln,  Thank you for your kind words.

[bellamarie]

mabel1015j

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I seriously thought I was the only one who could be so furious with Juliet.  I am just as furious with her as you are for other reasons. I said earlier, I felt Mary Ann was not making this believable.  Its like we are to see Juliet as this 33 yr. old, strong, independent, career woman, yet she is so wishy washy when it comes to relationships.  She even has so much arrogance to think Sidney was not writing to her, because he was jealous of her dating Mark, when all along he was hurt.  She was so full of herself, she didn't stop to consider if he was ok.  My first reaction when Sidney was not writing, was as I posted, "Is Sidney okay?"  In the very beginning of the book I was all excited and saw Juliet through my excitement.  As I read more and more pages, I began seeing her in a complete different light. 

So, what is her true motivation for "adopting" the Guernsey Literary Society and these wonderful people?  We shall see. 

[bellamarie]

JoanK ,   Whoaaaaaaa....With all due respect, I think you are reading way too much into all of this.  Juliet LOVES being treated this way.  She is like a water faucet, hot and cold, on and off.  I feel some of you are NOT reading what Juliet is saying.  She compliments these two men she broke up with.  She admits she is the one who has the issues. 

What I am beginning to see in people's views, where Juliet and her relationships are concerned, is that each are posting from personal experiences.

Now, for me I have been happily married for 38 yrs.  I have my Prince Charming and we are still in love, as much today as the day we married.  We have grown and accepted each other has flaws, and at times we are selfish and other times selfless in our relationship.  All men, who claim the book shelf, or that wine and dine you and want you to put them first when proposing, are not abusive, controlling, jealous, insensitive, etc., etc.  I am a bit shocked at how some have reacted so strongly against the two men Juliet has dated and broken up with.  They did NOT mistreat her in any way.   They may have been inconsiderate, selfish, and assumed they knew her, but then she has her flaws as well.  She takes blame, for her part, in the break ups.  She does not bash either of the men, on the contrary she says, if she were ready to fall off a horse, (fall in love), Mark is the one she would want to pick her up.  She admitted Rob was better off without her.  She gave high praise about these two men.

I have to admit, Mary Ann Shaffer/ Juliet, sure has brought out the spirit in us.  lol 


 

[JoanP]

It seems we are all ready to agree that MA Shaffer did nothing on a whim, Jude. 
 

Everything means something, and every person has a purpose for why she connected and mentioned the books and authors to them.

  So far, it seems that Bellamarie has summed it up just right.  If so, we will probably find in due time what she is trying to portray in Mark's character.  Right now, we just have bits and pierces - I don't hear Juliet is saying anything positive about him in her letters.  How is  Shaffer expecting  us to react when she tucks in little innuendos..."not a man to cross" - "thin smile" -  Ominous?    And then -

She's missed all the clues of who Mark really is and is not likely to change..

  Jean, I don't think you need to throw the book across the room - it looks like Juliet is getting out of town before they have any further conversation!
I was interested his reading preferences - Dos Passos and (I can't remember the other author, can you? ) If it's true MA Shaffer has a reason for every reference, what to you think she is saying with Mark and Dos Possos?   Who was that other author Mark likes!  I've flipped pages for the last 20 minutes looking for his name! 

Jean, I'm not sure what you mean about Juliet's "true motivation"?  Perhaps she is just looking for material for a book - and you suspect she really doesn't care about all these people that she claims she loves?  I don't see that, but we shall see...

[mabel1015j]

Joan - that wasn't me -"true motivation" ? .............that was Bellemarie.....

Bellemarie, you don't think that being "furious," "shouting," calling J an "idiot" is not mistreatment? .................there was no qualifying the "idiot" statement, like "he smiled" or he "said gently"........................it read - to me - like he meant it..............not a good basis for a successful relationship IMO. Even if "she has flaws as well" that's unacceptable treatment from my perspective............

I do see myself in Juliet. In my 30's I was sometimes a strong, independent business woman, but at other times - particularly in my relationships - i was confused and didn't see things as well as i did when i looked back on them..............where do we get lessons on relationships? My parents were very stoic, i don't think i'd ever had a conversation w/ anybody about how men and women relate to each other even by the time i was in my 30's. Every thing i had seen in other's relationships was a very superficial picture of what was going on. And even tho at that point i would have considered myself a feminist and believed in equality of the sexes, intellectually, i acted as tho i tho't men knew what they were doing, and somehow had the upper hand............it took me a couple more decades to figure out how wrong i was in that thinking..........................It's obvious that JUliet had even fewer lessons on relationships than i had........................jean

[JoanP]

Aha!  thank you, Jean.  There were so many posts today while I was out, please forgive my missing that. 

It's obvious that JUliet had even fewer lessons on relationships

  Jean, I agree - we need to remember that Juliet lost her parents during early adolescence and had very little guidance or example when it came to relationships.

 

Charles Lamb is the lure, the connector, the catalyst that started all this.

Pedln,  I had been thinking of Elizabeth as the "connector" - but am willing to consider Lamb in this light since you brought it up.
I spent some time this afternoon reading his biography.  Found some information that should be of interest to us now. Bellamarie, I am so sorry your daughter has to suffer from Bi Polar/Manic Depression.  Hopefully medication can control this?  Is this what Mary Lamb was suffering from, do you think?  Perhaps there was no diagnosis at the time.

Here is a detailed description of of the day Mary Lamb was overcome and killed their mother.  It makes the episode a bit more understandable, in context. -

Elizabeth Lamb, the mother, became an invalid at a comparatively young age; the only surviving daughter, Mary, bore the household chores15, much alone. In addition to caring for her ill mother, in between times, Mary did needle work to help with the household bills.
...I don't know that it can be said that madness ran in the Lamb Family, maybe. We know about the madness of Mary. Charles, too, was mad, viz., insanity characterized by wild excitement or extravagant delusions.

...Mary was, it will be recalled eleven years older than her brother, Charles. It will be remembered too, that I mentioned that most all of the domestic affairs of the Lamb Family settled on the shoulders of young Mary, the only girl to survived more than a couple of years. Her mother was of no help, as she was invalided at a comparatively young age. Mary worked, we can be sure in saying, night and day carrying out the numerous chores of both the Lamb household

..."On Friday afternoon the Coroner and Jury sat on the body of a Lady, in the neighbourhood of Holborn, who died in consequence of a wound from her daughter the preceding day.
It appeared by the evidence adduced, that while the family were preparing for dinner, the young lady seized a case-knife laying on the table, and in a menacing manner pursued a little girl, her apprentice, round the room. On the calls of her infirm mother to forbear, she renounced her first object, and with loud shrieks approached her parent. The child, by her cries, quickly brought up the landlord of the house, but too late. The dreadful scene presented to him the mother lifeless, pierced to the heart, on a chair, her daughter yet wildly standing over her with the fatal knife, and the old man her father weeping by her side, himself bleeding at the forehead from the effects of a severe blow he received from one of the forks she had been madly hurling about the room."

Biography, Charles Lamb

One more bit of information that illustrates Shaffer's attention to detail.  Do you wonder at some to the names in the book - unlike names we are used to reading - Dawsey - Isola Pribby...etc.  I have been thinking about the names since the beginniing and look here, just look here!
"In 1823 Charles and Mary met and eventually adopted an orphan girl, Emma Isola. In August the Lambs moved from London for the first time, to Islington and then to Enfield. Charles's health was weakening, and a long illness during the winter of 1824 led him to retire permanently from the East India Company. He now occupied his time with walking trips around Hertfordshire with Emma Isola[/b].    Charles Lamb, a biography

Now, let's try to figure out how Dawsey Adams was matched with Charles Lamb!  I have an idea, but maybe I'm going to far afield.  Would like to hear from you!

ps.  I missed the movie, fell asleep.  Dang...I really wanted to see it!  Bruce ordered it for me from Netflix this morning.
pps My spice jars are still  placed to my own liking - those for baking together, those for seasoning, those most frequently used... Ann, I did admire Ralph's neat workshop - and I'm sure you love your spice rack.  I'm a Gemini - that's my excuse!
ppps - Babi, Ann, they still use Lamb's pen name in crossword puzzles...but it's a four letter word!  If anyone can find the reason he chose this name, you will win a prize!

[JudeS]

I just finished a long post which mysteriously disappeare.  Oh well, I will try to recall most of what I wrote.  This post is linking John Booker, Seneca and their signifacance to the GLPPPS.
 
Seneca was the epitomy of the Stoic philosophy which preached the following:
The universe is governed for the best by a rational providence, contentedness is acheived by a simple , unperturbed life in accordance with nature and duty to the state. Human suffering should be accepted and has a posiitive on the soul.
 Examples of three of his sayings:
1)As longas you live, keep learning how to live.
2)A man is as miserable as he thinks he is.
3)Brave men rejoice in adversity, just as brave soldiers triumph in war.

Very nice, eh?  Well, inreal life Seneca did not follow his own precepts.  He had numerous illicit affairs,gathered immense wealth and meddled in all sorts of affairs of state including helping Nero kill his mother. His life ended by an order of the Emperor to commit suicide which he did after a number of unsuccessful attempts.

Now John Booker was an Alcoholic and he was using these principles as a way to cure his Alcoholism .(Alcoholics Anonymous wasn't available to him at the time.).
Although they were helpful to him he began to bore the other memebers who were not fighting an addiction and didn't need to be constantly reminded how to live their lives under German Occupation.  Thank goodness John had a sense of humor ,( which we see in his letters) that made him bearable.

Shaffer, in this case showed how one book alone can help a specific type of person with a specific problem.  How ever this reading of one book , over and over, helped John Booker overcome his Alcoholism and begin to experience life with a clearer sense of self.
Jude

[PatH]

Neatness is not one of my qualities, but my spice rack is alphabetized.  This is a matter of self defense; there are too many to handle any other way.  I have a rack along the back of a kitchen counter that holds a double row of spices, and they're all alphabetized except for a small nest of curry spices and a handful of peppers.  Any other arrangement, and it would take forever to find anything.  I date them, and try to get new bottles at appropriate intervals.  www.penzeys.com sells good, fresh spices in smaller bottles than you can get in the supermarkets.

My books are arranged in a way best described as a combination of historic and geographic, (meaning purchase date or where you would want to use it or where there was still some room), and I'm probably the only one who can usually locate a book.

[mabel1015j]

Since you are all talking about your books, spices and "stuff" i'll mention a new book i picked up at the library. It's titled "Snoop: what your stuff says about you." The author is a Phd in psychology and he's spent yrs studying what you can tell about yourself or others when looking at what's in their offices or in your living rm, bedrm, let alone your bathroom medicine cabinet...............i saw it and tho't it would be a fun read.........i'll let you know......................especially you folks who alphabetize everything - of course, being a student of the Myers/Briggs Personality Instrument - I already know soooomethiiiing about yooooou....................woooooohooooo....................jean

[bellamarie]

I haven't actually seen one character in particular as "the connector."  I see humanness, kindness, war, literature, love, friendship, honesty, loyalty, poverty, death, and the need for one another as the connector, or rather "connection". 

I love how Mary Ann, has very possibly taken all her favorite poets, books, essays, poems and quotes and connected them to each of her characters.  So its no wonder she would draw from some of these writings, and name and fashion her characters after them. Since she worked in a bookstore, she loved books, and was so well versed in knowledge of the classics, she had to find great delight in showing off her knowledge, in writing such a book where she could showcase it, while telling a story.

Keep in mind an ordinary reader would not be as familiar with all of these famous names and writings.  Like I said before, if I would have picked this book up, and read it by myself, there is no way in the world I would have gone on this fantastic journey of knowledge, as I have with all of you.  So she had to attract the average reader with love, romance, conflict, quirkiness, war, controversy, etc. 

The book has been sold out in the bookstores, on long waiting lists at the library and I am certain will hit #1 on the best sellers list.  Consider the small intro you see wherever you read about the book:  The Guernsey Literary and Potato Peel Pie Society begins in January 1946, when popular author Juliet Ashton, much like her fellow British citizens, is emerging from the dark days of World War II. As Juliet exchanges a series of letters with her publisher and her best friend, readers immediately warm to this author in search of a new subject in the aftermath of war.

What in that intro has gotten people to swarm to the stores and libraries to read it?  Why now?  Why are so many people feeling the need to connect with this book?  The title is so very strange, I could barely remember it when I told family and friends I was going to read it.  Are we ready for "a new subject in the aftermath of our war?"   In the world today, of uncertainty, people seem to be looking for unity, change, and hope, is that not what this book is offering?  Not to overlook the fact it is highly entertaining.  lolol   

[bellamarie]

Jean,

Bellemarie, you don't think that being "furious," "shouting," calling J an "idiot" is not mistreatment? .................there was no qualifying the "idiot" statement, like "he smiled" or he "said gently"........................it read - to me - like he meant it..............not a good basis for a successful relationship IMO. Even if "she has flaws as well" that's unacceptable treatment from my perspective............

I have already mentioned, in all fairness, Mark was angry, due to the fact he was hurt from being rejected.  The best of relationships can have fights and people can say things when they are angry, they would love to take back once they have cooled down.  That is why we have apologies and forgiveness.  I myself have learned over the years, to retire to my own space when angry so as not to say hurtful things when angry or hurt.  A cooler head prevails.  It took me some years of maturity to learn this. 

Jean,

"there was no qualifying the "idiot" statement, like "he smiled" or he "said gently

pg. 133 "As he shut met into the back seat, he leaned in to kiss me and said, "You're an idiot, Juliet."  And maybe he's right."

I think at the time he said this, he was very sad and quiet.  He leaned in to kiss her, and I sense it was not a shout, but a whisper of regret, they were breaking up.  I truly believe Mark loved her as did Rob.  She just was not able to return their affections or committ to marriage.  So the break ups were necessary.

I am a bit exhausted in defending Rob and Mark.  So at this point I am going to respectfully, agree to disagree with those of you who see the men and break ups as abusive, uncaring, and unloving.  I'm not even sure Mary Ann would have intended so much attention given to these areas, because each time, she has Juliet giving praise to the men after the break up.   

As far as Juliet lacking in relationships, I did not get that impression, on the contrary, on pg. 8 Juliet says, "I swear Sophie, I think there's something wrong with me.  Every man I meet is intolerable.  Perhaps I should set my sights lower_......I can't even blame it on the war_ I was never very good at men, was I?  Do you suppose the St. Swotjom's furnace-man was my one true love?  Since I never spoke to him, it seems unlikely, but at least it was a passion unscathed by disappointment.....After that, you remember, came the Year of Poets.  Then poor Adrian.  Oh, there's no need to recite the dread rolls to you, but Sophie_what is the matter with me?"

Unattainable love???  We shall see.